User talk:Tha Reckoning/SC2help

You know, we should make accounts on starcraft.wikia.com instead of posting starcraft related crap on a guild wars wiki. It turns out I already had one. ~Shard  23:19, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Well I didn't think you did, but I'll make one and put this shizzle over there. -- Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 00:27, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

6 Forge cannon rushes are gay when you are just going for a normal start up. Infested Hydralisk  22:44, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree, but I don't often see that. I have a funny vid of an hour long cannon "rush" if you want to see. Besides, there's a decent disadvantage for doing that, the player that does it exposes a huge weakness, if you know how to counter. Reaper rushes/MMM and crap like that don't make you go very far out of your way. -- Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 02:54, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I got 6 Forge rushed a few days ago. Luckily I could liftoff and land somewhere else! when he kept pumping cannons at my cc spot I just instantly took any marine I made towards his base with all my remaining scv's. Killed his Probes and took down his Nexus. He had enough to build a new Nexus at my old base location. I was able to get my income bad while he had to wait for his Nexus to get done, giving me an advantage. So I build a few Barracks and spammed Marines and Marauders and put him under a huge amount of pressure. I didn't go fully in since he had alot of cannons still in the base so my units would be lost since he also kept pumping Zealots. When I was just about to go Siege Tech he walked in my base with a Dark Templar or 2 and that just lost me my game offically. Wish I had saved that replay. :( Infested Hydralisk  19:57, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you orb command? Scanner sweep is handy, and by handy I mean nobody else has it and it takes out the DT's while warning you as to what he's up to. Then you can spec a raven or whatever you like. I only use DT's when I know for sure by obs that a terran is a baddie and doesn't have them. Even then, I send them in with like 4 stalkers so they're like "lolbaddiepushingmybasewith4stalkers" but there are secretly like a dozen DT's in the mix that he doesn't notice till later cause he's bad. Barring that, I usually use them for taking out expansions, or guarding my own. I don't play the DT card much against zerg, since they have detectors all over the place. Usually when I realize I'm getting cannon rushed/whatever I send a zealot to follow the probe and then mass stalkers and blink out and over to his base. I can get my buildy probe out and have him idle some dark corner of the map in case I need to expand, if I notice the rush early enough. I get lazy on the 1v1 maps and don't scout as much as I should, and that leads to proxy bullshit happening to me on those, I'm working on that. -- Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 00:12, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I do Orbital, but I was using it for MULE's so I didn't had the energy for a scan when I needed it. Infested Hydralisk  19:19, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
 * When I play terran I usually scout their initial base with an SCV and then save the energy on my expanded CC for scanner sweep, then I just lift off my original CC for a third expansion, if the game gets that late. -- Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 20:02, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Now that the page is done
Some comments:

Terran

 * 1) Marines and Marauders are only ridiculous because of the MULE. If you remove the MULE, the MMM ball gets fixed.
 * 2) Siege Tank: This was an odd nerf. The fundamental reason behind the nerf was stupid, but the actual change made siege tanks more balanced. If you change the range, they can't be called siege tanks. In fact, siege tanks as they are are just as powerful as they were in BW. The only differences are that they smartfire in SC2 (they spread out their splash damage instead of all bombing one target), the damage system sucks in SC2, and unsieged tanks do more damage to armored targets than sieged tanks (another side effect of the bad damage system).
 * 3) Scanner sweep as a detector is fine. However, it should not last 12 goddamn seconds.

Protoss

 * 1) With the exception of void rays and probes, protoss are the most balanced race.
 * 2) Void Rays: If you've played SC2, you already know what I'm going to say. If you don't Void Rays are SC2's scythe A/D. They basically kill anything in 1 second and move faster than everything that can efficiently kill them (marines only).
 * 3) Probes: Halo shields + proxy in ur base = lol. Proxies and cannon rushes take absolutely no skill to perform, yet it takes about 5 times as much skill to counter, because probes cannot be killed by other workers without a full surround. They just need to change how shields work on probes, so they can be killed when trying to cheese.

Zerg

 * 1) Ultralisks are bugged in 1.1 Their aoe is the size of a command center. Aside from that, zerg suck. The problem is that they have ZERO options early game. You HAVE to make lots of lings. If you want to ever tech past zerglings, you MUST have a lair AND the other units' upgrade buildings (roach warren, BLing nest, hydra, spire, etc) and in many cases, you need to buy additional upgrades for those units to be worth using. The cost required to make anything past zerglings is outrageous for a race that's supposed to be the pressure/swarm race. For example, banelings vs bioball is a joke, because bioball takes 0 resources to tech to, and banelings take at least 200/150 (nest + burrow) to use effectively, plus they cost a shitton of resources to make (50/25 a piece). For a unit that only attacks once for 20-35 splash damage, 50/25 is an enormous waste of money.
 * 2) Zerg has nothing to counter MM(M) ball. Roaches die to marauders, and everything else dies to marines. Banelings are a joke unit that only sub gold players lose to.

Overall
The biggest problem with the game is that low-tier units (especially zealots and marines) are way too good. Teching up isn't necessary in most games, even if the other player chooses to. This is because the damage system, instead of being "X counters Y because of their speed/range/other attributes" is more like "X counters Y because Blizzard said so." Damage bonuses come from nowhere and affect pseudo-random groups of units. Higher tier units are supposed to counter lower tier units (when given support), but only siege tanks and immortals follow this guideline. Other higher tier units are throw-aways that you don't really need to make (especially tier 3 units). The second biggest problem with SC2 is that the caster units are piss-weak. Caster units are a great way to add counters for certain strategies, but none of SC2's casters do this at all, except MAYBE the sentry. There is no plague, no stasis (if you say vortex, please kill yourself), no dweb, no damage-dealing-psistorm, no lockdown, no spider mines, no irradiate, no dark swarm. The only useful utility spells are FF, hallucination, guardian shield, and fungal growth, and 3/4 of those belong to sentries (which are totally awesome). Ghosts suck (except EMP, which they shouldn't have), infestors suck (except FG, which could be better), high templar are 100% useless, ravens are better detectors than spellcasters, and overseers are like ravens. ~Shard  07:44, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 * This was just a rough draft, I had to save it or lose it because Lia wanted to watch Sharktopus on SciFi while I was making it. Speaking of Sharktopus, don't watch it. Some bad movies are so bad that they're good, but this movie was so bad that I thought it was a long commercial. Anyways, changing stuff and asking questions, give me a few. -- Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 16:46, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Terran

 * 1) Do you want to completely remove the MULE? Would that be too harsh of a nerf for Terran? Do you think they would be able to keep up with their only macro mechanic being reactors?
 * 2) How would you rebalance the Reaper? I think you'll agree it shouldn't be in a balanced game as is.
 * 3) Do you think that Marauders having Stim + snares is a little much? I think they would still be useful without stim.
 * 4) What do you think about Scanner Sweep being able to scout without the risk? I think that is a little much.
 * 5) Would you keep Siege Tanks the way they are?

Protoss

 * 1) I agree about Voids, but how would you change them? Would you nerf movement speed, or make them lose charge between targets? I'm thinking I might like a movement speed nerf a little better, if they lose charge between targets you could only pop one building with them, doesn't seem worth the cost.
 * 2) What do you think of the zealot nerf? I like it, it didn't affect me because I don't Z rush often, only when someone steals my gas.

Zerg

 * 1) Would the Terran nerfs be enough to bring Zerg into the game? I don't play vs Zergs enough/play as Zerg enough to make any real calls about it, but I'd rather not go around buffing stuff.
 * 2) Even though Ultras are bugged, it still seems hard as hell to get them out.

Overall
I agree about T1 units being loltastically powerful, and I agree about Sentries being orgasmic, I love them. I don't see a whole lot of tier 3 in the long matches that I do have (which are fun, wtb more). I hate matches where I can't keep out that 8 minute marauder push, or where I obliterate it and the Terran can't come back. I'd love to have some longer matches where I can get to use some of the more fun stuff, but it always ends up being a Tier 1 massfest. Even if I do get into late game vs Terran, I almost never get to use HT. It always ends up being colossi because I have to tech to robotics fast to scout his base, because you can't normally get in there, and you need robotics for the bancheese crap. Even if I did manage to get out HT, ghosts make them completely useless. I either lose horribly, pull a win with extended thermal lance and some crazy positioning, or surprise attack with DT's mixed in my zealots so the Terran doesn't know to scan until it's too late. Do you think they're going to see these problems and fix them, or pull an Anet? -- Tha Reckoning  17:24, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Terran

 * 1) I have a mod in which the MULE lasts half as long, costs half as much energy, and brings in only double minerals per trip (instead of the current x6) and it feels about right, perhaps even a tad weak. The big thing about the MULE is that it's "too easy." You can use it any time and not get punished. If you miss a chrono boost, you lose units. If you miss a larva injection, you lose 4 units. If you miss a MULE, no worries, you can just spam them later. It needs to be a more active thing, like spawn larva is. Spawn Larva separates good zergs from bad zergs, and it shows. MULEs should do the same for terran players.
 * 2) I would just take the reaper out. It's effectively a flying unit out of a tier 1 building. It's broken because of that, even if it didn't dominate every unit in the early game. If I were Blizzard, I would honestly just remove it from the game. It doesn't belong there.
 * 3) I switched their stim for a different ability in my mod, and it works better. Stim is definitely too much, considering their 20 damage vs armored targets.
 * 4) There is a risk to scanner sweep. It costs the same amount of energy as a MULE, which brings in 270 minerals from regular mineral patches (540 from high yeild). When I play terran (I play random a lot) I only use scans to detect, not to scout, because I scout with SCVs. SCVs are 50 minerals, much cheaper than 270. I like it when terran opponents scan to scout me, because it means they have 5 less marines or 2 less tanks to fight with.
 * No, I would take smartfire off and put their damage back to 50 vs everything. The increased damage up from BW makes up for how many more units come out early game in SC2 (because of spawn larva, chrono, and MULE). The smartfire was what put them over the top.

Protoss

 * 1) I've tried to change void rays, but it just isn't working. IDK what I would do about them. They're a cool unit and there's no reason they can't be balanced, I just haven't discovered how to do it.
 * 2) The zealot nerf was dumb. Me and adrin still win with 2gate proxies. Often, the other teams can't do anything at all by the time we attack them. Blizzard needs to figure out the actual problem - probes are too invincible early game.

Zerg

 * 1) No. MMM still rolls over zerg. Mech still rolls over zerg. The siege tank change did nothing for zerg.
 * Yes, ultralisks are crap, people only use them because nothing else stands a chance against mech/robo.

Overall
The game has been out only a few months, and the initial balance was pretty good for an unfinished game. They've only done one balance patch, and it was mediocre. They are going in the right direction, they're just hitting the wrong mechanics. Reapers don't need a build time increase, they need a function change. Siege tanks don't need lower damage, they need to be less easy to make. It's things like that I worry about. They also think zerg is better than it really is. One of the lead developers recently said (in response to how few zerg pros are winning tournaments (none)) "Less people are winning with zerg because less people are playing zerg." I wish I could tell him there's a reason for that. Only 20% of players play zerg, as opposed to about 35% on T and P each. It's not because zerg isn't cool, it's because zerg just doesn't win. In balanced games, you play whatever you want based on your preferences. With such a large sample size, you would expect exactly as many zerg players as terran players. ~Shard  21:42, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Terran

 * 1) I think a tad weak is good, that way skill will matter, and good players will be at more of an advantage.
 * 2) Aye.
 * 3) What ability? I think they really only need Concussive Shells.
 * 4) How do you scout late game, or after someone walls off? Range units idling in the base would snipe an SCV before you saw anything, if their building placement is good. That reminds me, surprise mutas have to be the thing that gets Zergs the most wins from me, they're thinking of really creative places to hide their spires (giggity).

Protoss

 * 1) Maybe make their charged lasers drain energy, so they can only be used for a short period, long enough to take out a few units or buildings?

Zerg

 * 1) I meant nerfing terran in general, by taking away MULE's and stim from marauders and such.

Overall
Yeah. -- Tha Reckoning  02:01, 27 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "A Terran can get free detectors with the Orbital Command. They also have no need to scout, in the sense that other races do. This is far too useful for it's cost. I think that it should only reveal cloaked units, and that the animation needs to reflect the actual area."


 * I don't think you've played enough Terran to make this statement. First, its not a "free detector" it costs 150m to make the upgrade to get the OC then energy to use the sweeps. Second, the scan its self is very obvious and noticeable, using the sweep can easily alert your opponent of your intent to attack or make any sort of move or push. You have to be careful in using scanner sweeps for this reason, whereas with an Observer unit, you can fly about and hide vision in corners and such and get enough vision to make a push. Terrans still need to do traditional scouting for the reason I stated above. -- *Yasmin Parvaneh* [[Image:User_yasmin_parvaneh_sig.png]] 23:11, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, late game scouting? Use a Ghost or a Banshee.-- *Yasmin Parvaneh* [[Image:User_yasmin_parvaneh_sig.png]] 23:13, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't mind so much that they can scout with it, in retrospect, it's that it's a reactive decloak, and the other races can't do that. On a related note, I don't think emp should reveal cloaked units either. -- Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 02:29, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, tvp is kind of locked into 2gate robo at the moment, or so it seems. Why should I have to play the same tech path vs terran every matchup? Wtb another strong strategy that won't get me wiped by 3 rax push. -- Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 13:54, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Here's a thought to balance voids: massively decrease acceleration. They can keep their top speed with the upgrade, but with a slow acceleration, they can't escape or pursue easily. That would give a higher chance of them losing their charge between battles. So if your force is getting wiped, you have the option of running away and re-engaging non-charged voids. Allowing them to keep their top speed means that you can deploy them where you want, but once they're there, they're committed. --JonTheMon 14:45, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Korean top

 * Terran OP!!! Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  00:04, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * How does that have anything to do with whether or not terran is OP? -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 02:28, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * i'm sad ensnare lost in gsl, he played a mean early game terran. - Auron 03:14, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Obviously, balance is based on a single player out of millions and has nothing to do with things that are actually in the game.
 * BTW, the top korean player is JangMinChul, and he plays Protoss. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 05:13, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I haven't watched, but I hear a lot of cheese went on in the GSL. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 06:07, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I know this is a crappy place to ask, but nothing else is on RC: what the crap does GSL stand for, and does baddlenet have a stance on bots? –Jette 08:41, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * gomtv starcraft league, and probably ban on sight. unless it's in wow, they don't seem to care about mining bots. - Auron 09:02, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Gomtv? Is that some sort of gook "sports" channel? Pity about the bots, though. You can slap your dick across the keyboard all you want and it's cool, but you try to have a little fun with an AI... –Jette 09:13, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It's more that mediocre players can't handle Terran that well. And top players actually can. So basicly all the stuff about practiclly every Terran unit being stupidly overpowerd is pretty much overreacting. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  18:09, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think that it's every unit per se, it's the combination of MULE and cheap upgrades and cheap units and a tech tree that flows more easily than the other races. Don't get me wrong there are things like reapers that need to be removed, and ghosts that need hard changes, along with marauders needing to not be the "do everything" unit, but a few of their units are perfectly fine. Did you see the replay of WhiteRa vs bratok? Ghosts pretty much nulled everything he brought. If you haven't seen it, WhiteRa goes fast expand and chargelots with HT and colossi, and a lot of immortals mixed in. His opponent went MMMG the entire match, except where he sacrificed 4 battlecruisers to take out one expansion. It wasn't one of WhiteRa's best matches, but it wasn't one of brat ok's, either. They were about on the same level, a lot of wonky decision making and bad rallies went on. I'm not bitching that WhiteRa lost, it happens, but the fact of the matter is that nothing he brought to the fight was useful, because a handful of ghosts pretty much put him out after the first couple of engagements. Protoss doesn't have a counter to ghosts, so they really do need changing. I'm sure there are unit compositions that terrans have which can't be countered by zerg as well, and this kind of stuff shouldn't happen. I'm not saying ALL their units are OP, but they do need a few key balances. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 19:25, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * No counter against Ghosts? Feedback? Which can also be used to shutdown Medivacs instantly. But in each match you have to think: where did it go wrong first. What could he have done to prevent that from happening? <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  12:05, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If you can feedback 5 cloaked units in the middle of a terran bioball before they emp you (which has a longer range than feedback, doesn't it?) then you are pr0h4x. How can you prevent a turtling terran from making a t1.5 unit without throwing the game away to get inside his base? -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 04:37, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * There are always some options. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  20:25, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Options for who? Terran builds whatever units they want, and the other 2 races have to try their best to counter it. P and Z don't get any choices against terran. Skilled terran players can control the entire match. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 20:29, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Skilled Zerg and Protoss players are able to control the match aswell tbh. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  20:32, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * No. Zerg get no choices vs terran. They get a few vs toss, but none vs terran. The terran player controls exactly which units you build and exactly when you build them. If he wants you to make roaches, he will mass marines and hellions. If he wants you to make banelings, he will mass marines and marauders. If he wants you to make mutas, he will make tanks. If he wants you to make ultras, he will go pure mech. Everything terran does only has one zerg response unit, and ff you don't match what the terran does, you will lose. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 20:39, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * ^ This is the big problem. If you obs the GSL finals, even though zerg won, look at the effort fruit dealer had to go through every match. He couldn't just mass two types of units and win the game like terrans can. He pretty much had to make roaches, mutas, banelings and even some hydras every single match simply to counter a few terran units that were not too hard to spec to. He made it look effortless, but he also had like 3 expos up at all times, so he had enough funding to do it. Imagine if he had been playing a terran with an equal amount of map control - he would simply lose. - Auron 00:05, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

On an unrelated note, does the cheese stop when you get past gold/plat level? I'm really exhausted of fighting 3rax every fucking match. Sometimes I can keep them from coming up the ramp and surprise them with the first colossi, but if they hold off that push it's always GG. One viking makes my colossus useless, and getting all the way to HT's is a lot of effort for nothing when 1 ghost is fielded. Has blizzard made any confirmation that terran nerfs are coming? As is it's boring as shit playing in the lower leagues, and I can't advance because of all the 2gating/3raxing. It's gotten to the point where I don't even play vs protoss. If I'm P then I 2gate, and if I'm T I just do a 2rax ghost push and win. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning  03:17, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Let me walk you through this, TR
 * Let's say you're a scrub who cheeses a lot. You start in bronze, and you move up to silver, then gold. Then, you cheese into platinum, then you cheese into diamond. Unfortunately, you have no idea how to actually play, so you keep cheesing diamond.
 * The short answer is no, cheesing never stops no matter what league you're in. It decreases in plat and diamond, but it's still there. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 04:20, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I see a lot of those players, who can't even 2gate properly and whatnot. I wouldn't be stupid enough to cheese every match, because it's easily scouted and you lose a lot that way. I cheese against the big stuff, when I know I'm going to get cheesed hard, so I out-cheese the cheese. Like, on maps with a backdoor, because my micro with gateway units isn't good enough to consistently hold off that 3rax a-move push, so I 2gate it. I'm starting to get out of these bad habits, it's just that for a first time rts player, learning takes longer than I'd like. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 11:40, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi
<font color="#A55858">Misery  10:22, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi, you should check the edit history for how many times I said "low probe count" or "macro fail" or something along those lines. I can tell when I lost because I jacked up, and when I had an on game and someone worse beat me. I go through and watch my replays like any good little boy should. Yeah, I probably bitch too much, but it's far from how that article makes it out to be. I take the fall and deserve to lose when I play like a moron. It's times when I played my A game and deserved to beat the other gold scrub that piss me off. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 11:07, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I have read what you have written previously. This is in response to "What I've gathered shows that I need to focus on some little things that need improvement, and that Blizzard needs to work on a lot of things." If you are losing to 3 Rax timing pushes, you need to improve. You didn't even know that Warp Gates could be chronoboosted and you seem to think you are in a position to tell Blizzard what is wrong with the game... Ok. <font color="#A55858">Misery  12:11, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I think Blizzard is doing a really good job at game balance tbh. Incase you are interested: 1234. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  18:36, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I tried to read that article, but all I found were inane image captions. –Jette 22:34, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Everyone needs to improve, and I'm not saying blizzard's doing a bad job, I'm saying the job isn't done. As is they're taking some of the right steps and some of the wrong ones. Whoever said you had to be skilled at something to understand how it works? I think I'm doing pretty well for someone with very little prior RTS experience, tbh. Sure, I didn't know about one use of boost, how does that prove that I'm as inexperienced as you make me out to be? I do need to work on little things, and blizzard needs to work on big things, in what way isn't that true? If game skill = game knowledge then you're just as knowledgeable as me, since you claimed somewhere that you were probably gold, and so am I, so how is it you think you're able to talk down to someone of similar skill and knowledge? -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 23:58, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, how does sometimes losing to an all in Terran strategy that relies on an overpowered unit make you bad? By the way, I learned to beat those pretty easily now. =D Next. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 00:03, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If you use terms like "overpowered" you probably shouldn't be talking about game balance. 83.163.190.111 17:46, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh? That explains why everyone I know who is experienced with game balance uses that term. I can't tell if you're trolling, or stupid. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 18:27, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Judging from your defensive behavior, it seems you're not ready yet. Still, the progress you've made in the last couple of months is remarkable. You'll get there. In the mean time, you might want to get a different master. Your current one lacks the competitive spirit. 132.229.132.160 09:02, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Using common sense to prove you wrong =/= defensive. Also, wut? -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 23:20, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You have it backwards. That is your problem. The game is close to balanced, but you are not yet diamond. Even when you reach diamond league you still have a long way to go. My skill level is irrelevant, I don't presume to tell Blizzard how their game should be balanced. Also, you are quoting something I said during beta. <font color="#A55858">Misery  18:56, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Not to comment on games I don't play, but shouldn't a game be balanced smoothly once you're out of absolute shitter territory? Just because the two best players in the game are evenly matched no matter which race or tactics they choose doesn't mean that the average players should have to deal with balance problems. Unless the implication is that he is an absolute shitter, but if you're required to get to Diamond before clearing that area, they have the rating system labelled pretty badly. It must go up to rhodium or something. –Jette 19:27, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * 88% of your 1v1 wins are as protoss and 0% are as zerg. Whether or not you're right about what you say, analyzing a game requires that you play the game in every way. You have never won a league game as zerg, and that worries me. I don't know if you've tried or not (I'm guessing you haven't). There may be a lot of things you think are OP/UP, but if changed, would wreck zerg. Again, this is not necessarily true, but it could be that way. I think you need to get a substantial amount of zerg wins if you want to keep trying to analyze the game.
 * Yes, you will find most of my games are 2v2 instead of 1v1, so I'm kind of a hypocrite, but in defense, 2v2 isn't that much different from 1v1 as far as the gameplay evolution goes. The only thing that's different is multi-race army compositions. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 20:47, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Is that directed at Tha Reckoning or me? I assume Tha Reckoning because of the content (pretty sure I don't have mostly wins as Protoss), but the indenting is unclear. <font color="#A55858">Misery  07:17, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, that was for TR. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 03:32, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * @Jette: While it is fair to say that a bronze or gold player can say what they are having difficulty with, that doesn't mean that it is unbalanced, doesn't mean that it requires fixing or that they have the neccessary knowledge to suggest how to fix it. Starcraft is a very complex game and most of the problems encountered can be overcome using tactics and proper scouting. Your statement is accurate, the game should be balanced until you are out of absolute shitter territory, unfortunately absolute shitter territory extends up to and into diamond. I am an absolute shitter. It wasn't really much different in Guild Wars. Go look at the feedback section on this very wiki and you will see what I mean. <font color="#A55858">Misery  07:32, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with pretty much everything Misery put in this section. When I commented on Guild Wars, I was near the top of the game - most of my rants were about tombs, and I held tombs every night for hours. When I branched out into GW PvE, I was in scars meadows - we were setting record clears for hardmode areas without stupid bullshit like shadow form. But in starcraft 2, I'm a fucking baddie. Misery is a fucking baddie. TR is a fucking baddie. Shard is a fucking baddie. None of us are korean, nor are any of us Idra. For this reason, I don't try to critique blizzard's game. I follow the advice that I give - if you don't know what you're talking about, don't comment on it at all. Enjoy the game. Watch pro-game replays on gomtv or the bad americans on wherever those get streamed. But giving balance advice without having a clue is just a recipe for failure. - Auron 03:54, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I'll go ahead and reset indent here, because this thing exploded while I was at work last night. Misery, you'll notice I removed almost all of the suggestions from the page, because you're right. The ones I left are blatantly obvious, and I think that you'll find even the most experienced players agree. The maps don't affect me all that much because I'm not a 200 apm protoss playing 20k tournaments, but there are some matches where I'm like "man I wish I could do THAT" and with good maps sometimes those things are possible. I also think most pro level players (and blizzard game balancers) agree that Terran needs nerfs, because they're getting nerfed. Shard, you're also right about zerg play, which is exactly why I never even go into the zerg forums. Even on this page, I only had the most basic understanding of what was going on, and chose not to comment about matchups involving Zerg. Auron, you're right as well, but people tend to put forth time and effort to be closer to something they like. I like SC2 as a game, it's one of the best I've ever played, so it's only natural to be critical about things, and to search for people having similar problems to my own. One thing leads to another and you start thinking about how things should be. If I really wanted to stop I would, but I don't. What's on the page is very general, and I believe it's correct based on my experiences. If you want to argue that I'm wrong about what's there, feel free, but I won't stop just because I've only been playing a few months. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning  10:51, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * And then you posted again, hahahahahahahahahahaha. <font color="#A55858">Misery  16:29, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I said I wasn't going to stop posting, and I didn't stop posting... am I missing the joke here? -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 19:02, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it was just funnier than last time. <font color="#A55858">Misery  22:11, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * What's funny, the raeg part or the suggestions part? I think those are pretty reasonable. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 20:12, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Your complete lack of insight into exactly what your changes would do at all levels of play in all match ups. You are massively nerfing MULEs, Marauders, Planetary Fortresses (lol), repair and making Ghosts useless in all matchups except perhaps TvT without any compensatory buffs in an environment where Terran pros seem to be struggling against Zerg pros and Protoss is losing to everyone. I kind of hope you are just trolling. If it would take all those changes for you to be able to beat a Terran player that you consider to be at your level, that player is not at your level and balance issues are not the problem. I play random, I played some custom rounds against one of my friends in Platinum the other day, random vs random. ZvZ I lost because I tried early shenanigans because I hate ZvZ and it didn't work. PvT I held his early pressure, repelled his drops, got my Colossi out and simply ran over his base on equal bases. TvP I went for early marauders and started pushing his front. He had to pull probes to push me out, then massed Zealots and Sentries, pushed me back, got ahead in bases and eventually pushed straight through my bunkered front with a Templar/Gateway mix just as a drop of mine managed to take out one of his 4 Nexuses when I was restricted to two thanks to his map control. I guess Protoss must be overpowered, neither of us seemed to be able to beat the other with Terran, despite the fact that I mained Terran during beta. Zerg is obviously overpowerd in ZvZ. I know Protoss has a hard time versus Terran in the early game, but you are not playing against Boxer, learn to survive through the early game and you will roll over Terran players. The game isn't perfect, but the balance is way, way closer than you indicate and your suggestions are beyond ridiculous. It is the equivalent of saying that all axe based deep wounds should be removed from Guild Wars in order to make sword warriors more viable. <font color="#A55858">Misery  20:30, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm nerfing things that need nerfing, some more than others. Marauders and MULEs are hurting for nerfs. A Terran can one base 1100 minerals/min while the other races can only get 850 at most, and that's grossly oversaturating. How is this going to completely break any matchup? This way, MULE's give an advantage until the Terran is fully saturated, and on par with the other race's mining. Isn't that kind of what MULE's were meant for? To compensate for lost time building? Well, that's what my idea does. The current MULE's just allow Terrans to outmine by a lot. Marauders also need hard nerfs, because they have no ground counter. They steamroll everything, even things that are supposed to hard counter them. Removing stim makes them a snare unit with decent DPS, so they lose some movement speed and some DPS, big deal. I'd settle for removing shells if you don't like removing stim. Planetary Fortresses are more of a pet peeve than a huge issue, because it's one of those things that's exclusively Terran. Turning an expo into a PF and making 2 missile turrets makes it impenetrable, so the best you can do is kill off the workers and retreat before the army gets there. That's not nearly as effective as killing off a P or Z expansion, and the Terran is handed that advantage. I kind of think Ghosts need to be useless, they're a bullshit unit. You can already kite out of storm (very) easily and clean up because rax units >>>>>>>>> gateway units. I'm going to ignore all your "I play random" business, because it's pretty useless to the conversation. PvT is actually my best matchup because platinum level Terrans are so laughably predictable. PvZ is my worst because I'm not used to it. I rarely lose to early Terran aggression. I lose to the half awake Terrans that build vikings preemptively when they see a robo bay, because vikings come with 9 range inherently, and I have to upgrade to get it. I lose to these Terrans because money and time are limiting factors for me, and not for Terrans. I never make it to Templar against these Terrans, because I don't have the 200 apm to combat their 40 apm to survive long enough to get out templar. Odds are I get out 1 or 2 and then lose, because vikings hard counter colossi like no tomorrow, and immortals are laughable. My choices are to robo long enough for HT to come out, cheese, or lose. That's it. In what way are my suggestions beyond ridiculous? Terrans still get MULEs to keep up in economy, they still get reactors to keep up in army size (lolbalance), they still get the most cost effective units in the game, they still get the cheapest, fastest, most effective upgrades, they still get PDD to remove ranged units from the game, they still get to scout without the chance of denial, etc etc etc. I like how you say "L2p" but that has nothing to do with my ideas. I easily survive early Terran aggression through FF usage. It's when I get to midgame and I have no answer for that bigger MM, or MMG or MMM or whatever. So what if my changes make Terrans use units that don't start with M every now and then? -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 22:17, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * To quote misery, "hahahahahahahahahahaha." I'd stop while you're ahead. You clearly don't understand the game as well as you think you do - start a thread on teamliquid with your proposed changes and see how well that goes. - Auron 23:09, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * What's so out of question about my changes? Stim's getting nerfed as is, everyone knows MULEs are giving obnoxious amounts of returns, PF's are retarded and unnecessary, Ghosts are uncounterable, and mass SCV repair is something that shouldn't exist. If you want to bitch about the marauder changes, just remove shells from them and tweak the ghost into some kind of snare unit, instead of an lolprotoss unit. I'd have thought you of all people would have some common sense, Auron. If you can't come up with a reason why my changes are bad other than "This breaks mystical matchups you don't know about" then maybe you shouldn't be replying? -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 23:20, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * You should quit while you've got some dignity left, brah. If you want to balance a game you haven't mastered, come help me balance Magic; I need test victims subjects victims. I also need to get around to rewriting an open-source version of that one Microprose game but my gcc is fuxored. –Jette 01:18, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I never had any dignity to begin with, thanks to how nerdy I was in high school. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 02:15, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Your changes are nothing short of insane, yet you call for common sense? If you cannot see that your proposed changes are ridiculously fucking bad, nothing I can say will help. This is akin to telling someone his starburst war/ele has a shitty build; he doesn't know how much he doesn't know, and in his ignorance, defends his build to the death. Like I said, make a thread on teamliquid with your proposed changes, and when every single response is "hahahahahahahahahahaha" maybe you'll get the picture. Then again, you're still trying to defend your changes, so maybe not. - Auron 02:09, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

These aren't ridiculously over the top, or game breaking. All you can come up with is "your changes are bad because I say so". That's really out of character for at least you, Auron. I don't know as much about Mis. I can go to Bnet or TL forums right now and find at least 10 posts asking for nerfs of the exact things those suggestions nerf, so if you want to pull the popularity card, I think you're mistaken. If you have reasons why I'm wrong, or better ideas, I'm all ears. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning  02:13, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't even play StarCraft but I can tell most of the changes you've been asking for are stemming from your own inability to counter specific strategies used by opponents. The point everyone is trying to make here is that you haven't mastered all 3 races yet, haven't reached the top league of the game and don't have the mad 4DHD skeelz to excel at the game yet. As a result, any attempts to re-balance the game that you make will be influenced by your own lack of experience. You need to get better at the game before you can presume to tell Blizzard how to balance it. I'm not saying some of the Terran abilities like MMM aren't stupid and evil, I'm just saying that you can't blame your own losses on the game when there are pretty clearly demonstrable areas where you need to improve first. Moreover, Blizzard's idea of balance -- although far from perfect -- is leagues ahead of ANet's non-sequitur skill decisions, and is in fact good enough that examining the player for faults is more of a concern than examining the game. That's what balance is really about: being able to pick apart the player to find poor decisions and faulty gameplay without ever even having to look at the game's numbers. –Jette 02:25, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that the game is very balanced, and it's probably my favorite game right now. Like I said, PvT is my best matchup, because it's so simple and straightforward. 8 times out of 10 I have little problems out of platinum level Terrans. That's not what this is about. You are arguing something different than what Mis and Auron are arguing at the moment (earlier they were pointing out the same things you are, now they're just being odd.) I would agree that 100 percent of the time what you're saying is correct, but the fact remains that these are problems in the matchup, and that very many people think so. I do agree that I need work, but that has nothing to do with what's on the page right now, and nobody's disputing that (really disputing it, not just covering their ears and saying "no" over and over.) You're disputing my right to put it there, which is fine, but in this case there's been no evidence presented that I'm wrong. Yes I agree I do need work, that's why I spend hours laddering, watching replays, and most of all practicing macro. That's not what this is about, and neither Auron nor Mis can seem to see that. TL;DR you're right, but it doesn't make my suggestions wrong. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 02:32, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The point, as I understand it, is that you shouldn't be commenting on something you don't know anything about, both in the interest of saving face and in the interest of not clogging your page with suggestions that can't have been given ample consideration because you don't have the experience to consider them. It's really nothing to do with whether or not you have the "right" to post it; you are of course welcome to post whatever specious bullshit you feel like all over your page and no one can take that right away from you. But that doesn't mean anyone is listening, or doing anything besides snickering at the person who's talking about things they don't have the experience to exercise good judgment on. –Jette 02:42, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I might be worried if I cared what people thought, but I don't. I'll go out on a limb and say that Mis and Auron probably don't know loads more about it than I do, seeing as they've neither told me exactly what's bad about my suggestions, nor made any better ones. Hypocrisy is self fulfilling and all, but I'd much rather support with reasons. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 02:50, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Personally, I think your time might be better spent improving at the game or making your own rewrite of it, but I won't be one to judge imperfection. –Jette 02:56, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * At the moment I can't play because I'm watching a movie with my GF. I'll probably ladder some after I get ahold of Minigun. I've been wanting to 2v2 to practice my T and Z (taking shard's advice) but I need a partner. Shard Yas and Adrin never play anymore, and the Diamond guy I know never seems to be on either. /sadface -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 03:02, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I would play with you, but I have to fast for general anesthesia tomorrow. Also I don't own the game. –Jette 03:08, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * What are you getting surgery for? -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 03:11, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, you're not the type of person to be stopped by not owning something, Jette. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 03:13, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I've changed my ways! I care about faceless corporations and their intellectual properties now. I'm not having surgery, the doctor just doesn't like it if you move when they shock you. If I was having surgery, I'd demand local anesthetic so I could watch and make witty commentary. –Jette 03:28, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * A bad change list
 * Yes, that's my mod that I just released today. Let's ignore that balance is only the second priority and talk about it anyway as if it were important to me, and talk about your changes versus mine and why I made them.
 * EMP: Well, I changed mine because I wanted to put science vessels back in. The only thing wrong with it in SC2 is the energy drain from all units within a mile radius. There is no need to move EMP to starport units to balance it.
 * MULE: You cut its income by 50%. I cut it by 33%, allowed people to use it for gas, gave it a cooldown, and cut the energy cost in half. Why? I made it identical to Spawn Larva, an (arguably) already balanced mechanic. Here's what I didn't do: Random big-number-nerf. I realize the gas thing may be broken as hell, as terran isn't supposed to have that much gas, but you find these things out by trying them.
 * Marauder Stim: You took it off. I replaced it with a researchable ability that gives them more health so they live longer, and thus do more damage before they die. Why? Because roaches and stalkers have micro-manageable abilities that do exactly the same thing, while Marauders don't. Microing this health gain (which is on a fixed duration) will raise the skill level required to play MM effectively.
 * Repair: You limited it to 3 SCVs. I removed autocast. Why? Again, to raise the skill required to use it effectively. Against one thor, it makes no difference, but have you ever tried manually using repair with multiple SCVs during a battle? It's harder than playing a heal monk in GW (what isn't?).
 * Planetary Fortress: You took it out. I did nothing to it. Planetary fortresses do really nice damage, but did you know they can't hit air, they can't liftoff, and a lot of units outrange them? Did you also know, getting a Planetary Fortress costs you 180 minerals per minute worth of MULEs you're not using?
 * It seems like you feel Terran is overpowered (I happen to agree, but for a different reason than you), and are nerfing things just because. That's not how you balance a game. I mean, that's how some people balance games *cough* but that's not how you're supposed to do it. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 03:57, 15 November 2010 (UTC)


 * EMP: If it had just energy drain, I'd be cool with it. I just don't like that there's literally no downside to getting these vs protoss. There's nothing a protoss can make that emp isn't incredibly useful against. They're not very costly, they don't take a long time to get, and there's no risk to getting them. That's why I 25/90'd it.
 * MULE: I cut it a lot because the returns you get from it are vastly higher than what it was meant for. It's my understanding that MULEs are meant to make up for time lost mining from building structures. They do far more than this the way they are, so I took them down to what I feel is necessary. They also stop giving returns after full saturation, which encourages more risky play by expanding. I feel that Terran are allowed to one base much too effectively. You also nerfed reactors which I left alone because of hard MULE nerfs. The path to the pot of gold is different, but I like your idea better.
 * Marauder Stim: I removed it because Marauders already have a damn good upgrade in shells, and because stim is fucking awesome even if it's not on the Marauder. I believe the ability to keep enemies from retreating gives the Marauder plenty enough damage to make up for it not being able to regen through micro like it's protoss and zerg counterparts. I don't like your change to the Marauder because once Medivacs come out those things are going to be obscene tanks with little micro, and still useful snares.
 * Repair: I'm not sure I agree with how you did this either, because at the super elite level that higher apm is going to reward the Terran player more than the P or Z player simply because they can repair with that many things and the other races don't have that option. Sure it'll balance things at my level but I still don't agree with mass repair when things like Thors are that sturdy and PF's are that impenetrable.
 * PF: I took it out so Terrans have to worry about expanding like the other race's do. It's not about the PF's destructive potential, I usually storm drop them and kill off all the workers anyway. The problem as I see it is that you can't completely wreck the expo without losses as easily as you can a nexus or hatchery. The PF is going to deal a bit of damage and then the main army is probably going to get there in time to fend it off. It just allows for a bit more peace of mind and damage in return than protoss or zerg are allowed, so I removed it.

I think that certain things about Terrans are overpowered, like Marauders, and I think that certain things about them are broken, like EMP. I also think that there are certain commodities they are allowed to have for picking Terran that the other races don't get. Also, it's odd that some of your changes are eerily similar to some of the ones I had on this page in the past. Did you come to those ideas yourself, or did you get inspiration from what I wrote? It's clear that you're far more creative than I am at game balance. Have you taken classes on the subject, or are you just a designer by nature? It's obvious that you've been studying this sort of thing a lot longer than I have. What's your major? -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning  05:48, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to enter into a balance discussion and go through your points one by one. If you have actually read what I have said it is going to be pretty clear why. I've already explained what is wrong with your suggestions. Let me make it clear once more by pointing out why I am laughing at you, but not laughing at Shard. Look carefully at his changes. I didn't have to go past the first one: "Banshees can no longer cloak, but have 2 cargo slots." He took away cloak and turned them into transports. I'm not going to even comment on whether or not this is a good change, but the point is it is an adjustment and not a straight up nerf. Most of his changes are like that. He obviously put thought into the changes instead of going "Terran imba QQ nurf plx" and simply whamming his hammer down hard on anything he finds too difficult to deal with. He also made a mod, so he can test his changes and see what effect they have on the game. I still think he is wasting his time, but he is at least approaching the problem in a thoughtful way, trying to analyse the actual problem instead of knee-jerk nerf reactions and see what effect his changes would have. Your changes basically destroy the game and at the same time show a massive lack of understanding. MULEs aren't just to make up for lost mining time while building, that could easily be adjusted by Terran buildings being slightly cheaper, you can measure exactly how much the cost of lost mining time is, they are macro mechanics designed to be equivalent but not equal to Spawn Larvae and Chronoboost to make up for the fact that Protoss and Zerg can reach saturation much faster. <font color="#A55858">Misery  10:41, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Since I'm so nice and I like you so much Misery, I attempted to contact Minigun last night, because he's about the highest level protoss I have access to. I posed questions to him about what he feels is wrong with the PvT matchup. He's #47 of the top 200 and is ~2900 diamond. However, it seems he wasn't watching the forums when I posted, but I still got something of what I needed. EroSennin, a self described semi-pro (this part doesn't really matter) who mains protoss and is 2000 diamond after ~200 games came to my thread and weighed in on it. I'll condense it. I asked EroSennin what he feels isn't balanced about the matchup, and here are the things he listed:


 * Stalkers need a damage buff, and/or a range upgrade at the core
 * Marines and Marauders need range nerfs, and available range upgrades
 * Charge is insufficient for the resources invested
 * Auto repair needs to be removed
 * Banshees are too powerful against ground units
 * Tanks require too much food
 * Barracks shouldn't require Depot
 * Terran can cut economy but still keep up due to MULEs


 * As you can see, EroSennin seems to have found the same problems I have at his level of play. He chooses to combat these through range nerfs for barracks units and power
 * creeping gateway units. Obviously he's come to the same conclusions I've come to right now, and come to some of the same ones I have in the past. He even removes
 * autorepair, which is essentially what I did. Is EroSennin, a 2000 point Diamond Protoss after only 200 games, also as inexperienced as I am, even though our arguments
 * have clearly demonstrable parallels? Does he also not understand the matchup by pointing out the same problems I point out? Maybe you should come down off your high
 * horse sometime soon.


 * In response to what you said about Shard's ideas, I agree that he's much more creative and talented when it comes to this sort of thing. I believe I even said that, if
 * you cared to read. I don't care to enter into a balance discussion with you because you have a clear disregard for the points I've made and the time I've spent studying
 * this subject, and all you can seem to do is ignore what I've said and continue to think I'm only making these changes because I lost a few Terran matches. If MULEs are
 * meant to be the Terran equivalent of chronoboost and/or inject larva, then answer a few questions for me:


 * Why are Terran units so much cheaper to build? If MULEs are going to give high returns then units should cost a lot.
 * Why are Terran upgrades so much cheaper and faster? If I have to boost my research to get it out on time, then Terran research should take longer, since their macro
 * mechanic is free to net them more minerals while I'm spending mine on getting out research instead of units or economy.
 * Why aren't Terrans punished for forgetting to MULE? If I forget to boost research or robo/stargate units or economy, that's all time and resources lost. It's only
 * delayed for the Terran.


 * Basically, why do Terrans get more potent macro mechanics and more options out of their macro mechanics than the other races, with less of a downside? If I'm such an
 * inexperienced noob, why is there a 2000 Diamond protoss finding the same problems and posing his own fixes for the situation? You still haven't answered what's so wrong
 * with my changes, so I'm going to go ahead and call troll.


 * Here is the thread where I attempted to contact Minigun, and EroSennin replied: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1020823332?page=1
 * This is EroSennin's current rank in his Diamond division: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2230485/1/EroSennin/ladder/22364#current-rank


 * Feel free to go there and also insult EroSennin's intelligence for seeing the same problems I do, and posing his own fixes, which may or may not be better. I shudder to
 * think how high of a Diamond player you are that bonus pool inflation has escalated to the point where you think 2000 Diamond are inexperienced, now. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 13:51, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I find it pretty funny that you accuse me of not reading what you say and then go and post that ridiculous wall of text. Nowhere did I say that there is no problem with MULEs or Marauders. I didn't even enter into that discussion. I specifically told you it was possible for you to recognise problems, just not to come up with sensible suggestions from them. EroSennin came up with completely different solutions to you, so you are actually strengthening my point, not weakening it. I told you exactly what is wrong with your changes, you are nerfing several core parts of Terran play with no compensatory buffs. That makes Terran weaker as a whole in all matchups. In short, you have recognised problems but not how they can be dealt with. This is equivalent to recognising that greenhouse gas emission is bad and proposing to deal with it by banning fossil fuels and farming. How on earth have we not solved that problem yet?


 * Also, look at your own thread. Champ told you that you and by implication, he, are both not qualified to comment on this. He is also a 2000 diamond. Of course he didn't agree with you and in fact was saying exactly what I am, so you chose to ignore him. Did you also notice how minor EroSennin's proposed changes were in comparison to yours? He suggested a delay on EMP in terms of timing, a minor change in the range of Stalker vs Marauder/Marine (I assume to shift the balance in the early game), removal of autorepair with no change to its overall effectiveness in the hands of a skilled player and compensated by reintroducing early Rax pressure and a minor tank buff. He also identified a perceived problem with Banshees and Zealots without proposing any fix. Can you seriously not see how different that is to what you were proposing? Would you like to accuse me of not reading something again? <font color="#A55858">Misery  14:52, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It's only a wall of text to someone that doesn't feel like paying attention to what he's saying and what other people are saying. It's obvious that this is true about you, because of all the things you missed about what I posted. Yes, you did say I can recognize problems but not make suggestions sufficiently. However, your crutch for that pitiful argument is that the problems I see are only problems at my level of play, and you've been hanging on to that for dear life. Going through your replies in this thread, what I see the most from you are things like "you need to l2p and these problems solve themselves" basically implying that at a higher level these sorts of problems don't exist. This is evidenced in several quotes from you:




 * It's pretty clear you think I'm posting these things because these problems exist at average levels of play and not elite ones. So, I gave you the benefit of the doubt
 * and went to more experienced players. This is why it's important that EroSennin saw the same problems I see. He saw problems with Terran economy, barracks units vs
 * gateway units, and protoss upgrades not alleviating the problem. Basically, you said "you only have these problems because you're bad" so I found someone better and
 * said "here's someone better with the same problems." Why should there be compensatory buffs for Terran? I'm sure I can look at most of the patches since SC2 has gone
 * live and not find any compensatory buffs for nerfs made. Since Blizzard are pretty damn good at game balance, I'm going to go ahead and say that compensatory buffs
 * aren't necessary when balancing a game. Also, I did look at my own thread. Maybe you should have done the same, instead of jumping for the first thing you saw as
 * ammunition for your weak argument. So I ignored Champ? The last time I checked, saying "I agree and am doing X for that reason" isn't the same as "I'm ignoring
 * you." You should also think hard whether or not his changes are better than mine. A small EMP nerf like that is still going to leave it broken late game because it
 * can't be dodged and because it's so much more potent than storm, it's supposed equivalent. This is why I removed it, it's something that doesn't need to exist. I'm
 * sure you'd see something wrong with storm if it did instantaneous damage. What do you think stalker damage/range buffs are going to do to PvZ, specifically roach vs
 * stalker and hydra vs stalker/colossi? He removed autorepair and left the repair function so only the super elite can abuse it. I don't think that's good juju, so I
 * just removed it altogether. If you had actually read and done your homework, you'd see that he reverted Rax before Depot because it was a fix made purely for the
 * little guy, not because of compensatory buffs. Rax before Depot builds were only good for cutesy stuff anyway. He also reverted the zealot nerfs, were those
 * compensatory buffs for.... buffing stalkers? So, how is powercreeping the counters to an overpowered situation better than what I'm doing by nerfing the overpowered
 * thing? Why are compensatory buffs necessary for nerfing things that need nerfing? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Tha Reckoning (talk).
 * There is no point in discussing with you, so I am going to stop. Feel free to archive. My points are clear enough that I am convinced any rational third party will find them and reach a logical conclusion. Have a nice day. <font color="#A55858">Misery  22:14, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It's funny how you act so abrasive, but when I actually take you seriously and seek the opinion of players you feel are experienced enough to make the call, suddenly it's a lost cause to discuss with me. By the way, several other highly ranked Diamond players have come to the same thread, saying the same things, more or less. I guess I should have quit while I was ahead, huh? -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 22:24, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I skipped the part where being high ranked conferred the ability to analyze a game. Not all great players are great game designers, and vice versa. I guarantee you none of the creators of the original SC have won the GSL, and I guarantee you that none of the GSL winners have designed complex games. Most players don't know how to analyze a game, they know how they would want it to be, and that's not always an honest opinion. Being good at a game requires lots of practice. Being good at game balance requires a lot of math. The two really have little in common, except the latter requires some of the former.
 * Misery (and myself to a degree) have already made it clear that asking for nerfs/buffs requires more than knowing what the problems are. Familiar example: Anet knew what pvp's problems were for a long time, but had absolutely no idea how to fix them. You are like Anet, and these are your Smiter's Boon changes. Also, when I finish my 3 projects I have due this week, I'll 2v2 with you so I can teach you to properly nerdrage against MMM balls. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 02:58, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Cool, it's the 1v1 MMM balls I hate. I also have like no energy to argue anymore about this, so yeah. It's been a funky ass night, I actually forgot to clock out and then fell asleep driving home. I won't get to sleep well again until Tuesday of next week, so I'm going to go be dead for as long as possible. Nighty night. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning  11:54, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, and you can't seriously tell me they knew what the problems were for the last few months/years that GW limped along. You know they were playing the dartboard balance game after they pulled the plug for GW2: Electric Boogaloo. Bazinga, ED reference. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 12:39, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
 * They "tried" nerfing builds like iway, searing flames, etc, which kind of implies they were aware of the problems. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 04:46, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
 * How can you try and fail to nerf Iway? That's just a gimme. Searing Flames just needed to die a quick, Smiter's Boon style death. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 11:52, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, I haven't actually forgotten the 2v2 thing, I'll be around eventually. Work is currently eating me alive and will do so for a few weeks, so just bear with me. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 01:13, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Seriously, though
Wtb a 2v2 partner. The last weirdo said "lets rush, you make rines I make rauders" and then made a bunch of tanks and got pissed when they broke down our back door with ling/stalker (a good composition, you know, one with a plan.) Anyone out there? Infested, or Why? -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning  07:02, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Pushing early in 2v2 is an extremely viable tactic. You can easily collapse on a single player, killing all his units together with your ally. If the 2 other players haven't put them army together early enough it's pretty much a win for you. I can't 2v2 with you because I'm on the european servers. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  18:43, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's usually what I go for when I 2v2. However, instead of making marauders he made tanks for some reason, and so when his small amount of tanks and my 15 marines got pwned by ling/stalker, he got all mad. Maybe he should have made marauders like he promised, dammit. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 20:27, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yup, teching up early can be quite devestating in a 2v2. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  03:13, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I've only had a handful of 2v2s, but most of the time I lose because it's gold, so my partner is going for a mass probe attack or something along those retarded lines. Meanwhile the other team is like "lets make complementary units!" and they can fail hard at macro all they want because it's a 1.15 vs 2. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 11:56, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

WoT spacing
What's up with it? It doesn't flow (hard breaks everywhere) and seems fixed length. --JonTheMon 20:40, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm, is something wrong with it? I've been thinking it looks neater this way. I can fix it if you like. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 21:07, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, i tend to have multiple windows open, so it's not wide enough and part of each line wraps, but then the next line starts. --JonTheMon 21:11, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * But I'm entirely too lazy to fix it! =O I'll probably archive this soon, whenever Mis is done. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning User- Tha Reckoning Another Sig.png 21:37, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Just pointing it out. Didn't actually expect it to get fixed. --JonTheMon 21:41, 15 November 2010 (UTC)