User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Overpowered Skills/Assassin/Archive 4

A quirky concept for a skill to begin with (unpredictably teleporting in to finish off a target when they're hit by some unreliable secondary damage source?) turned into what is basically an easy DW for caster spike. From a functional standpoint, it provides all of the fragility associated with Deep Wound with the removal difficulty of a hex (until it's too late, of course), and Deadly Paradox effectively makes it 5/0.5/6. It has no aftercast, meaning Iron Palm and/or Expunge/Rend can follow with no delay, and requires almost no attribute investment for spike.

Ritspike is in love with this skill right now, and future spike builds are probably going to be in love with it too. Whatever this skill was supposed to do, it needs to be redesigned to do that, not be Accumulated Pain on crack. Riotgear 02:52, 5 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I gotta agree this skill is a bit too powerful. I mainly use it on non-Melandru Dervs personally because when it triggers a crit of Mystic Sweep or something like that will just clear the guy. It could easily be replacing warriors in something like Eurospike by having any /A use it. Funnily enough, it sucks on dagger-based assassins because it interrupts them mid-combo more often than not. But i'm not too sure what easy tweak would do. Seems like the general concept that would need a rework. Patccmoi 17:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Ugh just nerf it and get rid of it. It spawned all these degenerate spike builds in RA and TA that are hard to shut down and easy to play. --TimeToGetIntense 10:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thats the type of thinking that ruins things, we need to find a fix that is'nt just "get rid of it"--Midnight08 14:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I see where he's coming from though...this skill is beyond annoying, casters use this in spikes all the time.Streetp 02:46, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I see where he's coming from too (Not that i think its realy "overpowered"). But if you think a change is needed its always best to post constructively. Give suggestions about how to improve it so that it isn't overpowered. (IE: This seems to be too effective in caster spikes, would it be possible to make it cancel if a non assassin spell is used or make it 50% fail on CS 4 or less?). Comments like "Just get rid of it" are generally worthless at best(the devs ignore it) and destructively bad for the game at worst(if the devs listen)--Midnight08 06:54, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This is a problem skill in caster spikes. Part of it is that it's a Deep Wound that can be cast well in advance of the spike and is difficult to remove since it's a hex until it kills you.  Because of that, the Augury user is able to spike with another skill of his choice, with the Deep Wound appearing just in time to score the kill.  A straight caster Deep Wound would be a solid, if unspectacular skill.  This is significantly better, with really weird synergies that make it impossible to use on an Assassin with daggers but ideal for caster spiking.  I'd rather see it knock the victim down than be a precast Deep Wound, anything that doesn't encourage people to caster spike with it at least. -Ensign 11:40, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Gotta agree that another effect than DW would be better because it IS too powerful for spikes. A KD is an interesting idea. Maybe with GW:EN it could be 'kd + cracked armor' which would open the guy up to be finished by a sin doing Falling-Twisting, or a warrior that could Bodyblow him. And one thing that others mentioned before that would REALLY help using it on Assassins is that it only shadowsteps you if you're not adjacent to target. Because then it wouldn't screw up your dagger combos when it triggers, which is incredibly annoying. Patccmoi 14:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * What about making it a touch skill or adding an attack chain requirement? -- Gordon Ecker 23:07, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * In response to guys saying "just get rid of it" is a bad mentality: I think it's not as bad as a "every skill must be viable" mentality. Some skills are badly designed in the first place and buffing them is bad for the game. This is one of them. I really don't see this being used once the Deep Wound is taken out, but the Deep Wound must be taken out because right now it's broken. --TimeToGetIntense 06:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that a broken skill is a bigger problem than a useless skill. Each underpowered skill has a slight negative impact on skill bar diversity, while a single overpowered skill can have a huge impact on the entire metagame. I still think that every skill should be viable. If a skill can't be balanced by tweaking the green numbers, it can still be reworked like Impale, Crippling Slash, Ancestors' Rage or Spirit Burn. -- Gordon Ecker 07:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I think other skills take priority in this case. There are plenty of more interesting skills that are underpowered or in need of a re-work. --TimeToGetIntense 03:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree, this is a free deep wound for casters and it needs to be fixed. --Tankity Tank 03:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, it is the only DW for casters :/. Unless Izzy decides another skill should be good, then QQ this shouldn't be nerfed. Readem   Sorry, I'll stop trolling now.  07:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This begs the question of whether or not casters need a DW, much less a 5-energy one you can use before a spike and not have to worry about removal until it's ready to kill them. Riotgear 03:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Casters aren't a DW class. This is the only DW for casters in two years and IMO it's a fluke. Fix it and let Readem can cry himself to sleep for a couple of nights <3. --Tankity Tank 09:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It's not the only Deep Wound for casters, there's also Phantom Pain, Augury is just the cheapest one, and the second fastest casting one behind Shadow Fang. -- Gordon Ecker 09:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This skill makes me sad. Sanity check: Degenerate skill: needs to be hit hard. 2 options that I see are: 10E, 45r and remove the deep wound love, Aran 20:58, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * You're right Gordon, it's not the only deep wound for casters. If you look at the other caster deep wounds though they're both 10e and either have a long recharge (45s on shadow fang) or a 2 second cast time (phantom pain). This one is cheap, 5e, with a 1s cast and a 12s cycle. --Tankity Tank 00:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh noes, I hate you Tank! You suggest nerfing my gimmicky starburster, or Toxic Shock Necro :O. How dare you? What ever will I do, if this is nerfed? That's right! I never used this skill to begin with. Readem   Warning: Ignore this User if at all possible.  05:24, 12 September 2007 (UTC)


 * And what would you think about such change: 5/1/12 Hex Spell. For 5...10...15 seconds, the next time damage inflicted from dual attack would drop target foe's Health below 50%, you inflict a Deep Wound for 5...17...20 seconds. This Spell has half the normal range. HTS 84.40.188.84 19:01, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I dont think that would work, AoD is mainly (ab)used(?(lol) by secondary Assassins. Impale would overshadow it easily for primaries.--J0ttem™ 16:56, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I have run a Deadly Arts N/A often in AB. And in all honesty i've found it more effective at killing foes than many other builds. Augury of Death can mess you up a little very easily. Many many times now i've been caught off guard by the shadow step aspect of it mid cast of Entangling and wasted my Sig of Toxic Shock. The only real problem with the skill is that it makes the Deadly Arts skills so incredibly hard to interrupt, judging the distance to 1/2 cast range isn't as easy as as watching them walk upto you. The buff to the cast times needs to be reduced imo, thats about it. The recharge buff from Paradox is about the only reason its worth running it otherwise there simply wouldn't be any decent damage in it.

The shadow step is a problem, it allows for Iron Palm to force a knockdown right after (due to DW) letting a caster die from the poison they suffered from a signet spike. The skill having a recharge of 20 balances it out except for the fact of Deadly paradox.


 * Part of Iron Palm's synergy comes from the fact that Augury has no aftercast... and part of that synergy comes from the fact that Shadow Prison has no aftercast. Riotgear 12:14, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Shadow Prison and Augury both have the standard aftercast delay like most other spells. I just tested this myself in the isle of the nameless. Not sure how you guys are getting this info...(Terra Xin 03:14, 30 December 2007 (UTC))
 * No, they don't. 66.66.2.63 18:18, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes put it in shadow arts AND, let it make you loose a scalable amount of HP after exiting it. Because right now there is No Down side other than "I didn't finish him off" Recall gets you safely to a monk after over extending if you want to. Recall is a rival (better than IMO) than Shadow Meld, as Shadow Meld cannot instantly warp you to a Monk if you over extended and are in trouble, And Shadow meld brings you to where you cast it, if your ganking your team probably Moved from that spot already. If Recall made you loose 200....0 (16 Shadow arts is 0) get 0 penalty for using it (as they have mastered it) however those with just 8 shadow arts will loose about 100 hp, meaning a sin can't just stick in there and then leave, as they may die just for leaving. This also doesnt affect most Shadow Form farming builds as they have 16 shadow arts anyways. Let recall be able to kill you, if your not playing it smart. It has a downside, and if you Degen the sin after loosing 100 hp with 8 shadow arts (equivalent of deep wound) they might die right after


 * Augury of Death: 5e/1c/20r Deadly Arts. "For 10 seconds, the next time one of your attack skills would cause target's health to drop below 50%, that foe suffers a Deep Wound for (0...7...9) seconds." Shard 08:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC) Sorry mods, forgot to add sig.

This skill has basically been ruining Hero Battles since day one. I've already discussed the reasons for which I think it's overpowered there [] so I won't repeat everything here. While the skill is simply being used because the format encourages using it, I hate the thought of having to wait for the next balance update for Hero Battles to see it disappear out of the metagame. I sometimes hear people mention that it takes skill to play a dual recall runner build. Yesterday, I spent ten minutes of my time chasing after a (top 20) player who was using an SP sin supported by no less than 2 monks (Blessed Light + SoD) and an E/Mo (SoR), doing nothing but looking at the map, changing flags, saving my heroes from spikes, monitoring when the sin used Recall so I could micro my heroes to remove it asap before he got away and removing Siphon Speed from me while trying to make a desperate run for the mercenary shrine to prevent him from recapping it. The only reason people can get into the top 10 with builds like this is Recall. I'm tired of seeing how assassin can overextend with it without fear of getting killed and how a Mo/A can cap an extra shrine at the start and then force a stalemate at the mercenary shrine. With the recent nerf to Expose Defenses this skill will become even better, and it's also one of the things preventing somewhat "balanced" builds to appear in the metagame. I can only hope something is finally done about this skill or the format so that we no longer have to watch observer and see 2 Mo/A run around in circles on maps like The Beachhead. --Draikin 10:48, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The only way to fix recall is to remove it. Recall takes no skill to play and dominates build wars entirely. You've tried to balance it by fucking around with who the enchant is maintained on and reducing its range, but none of that crap has worked. Either rework shadow stepping entirely (it's pretty broken, no matter what skill it is), or remove it from the game. Recall makes the game Guild Wars not fun. -70.95.73.60 04:49, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think not sucking, and perhaps being good may solve your problem m8 ;). Readem   Sorry, I'll stop trolling now.  07:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * GWW:NPA--Midnight08 10:13, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I will now QQ about all the people who thinks guild wars is unfair, and life sucks. Readem   Sorry, I'll stop trolling now.  23:45, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * As good as recall is, it is something assassin were really meant to do. That's why they lack AL and life. ‽-(eronth)  I gi  ve up  11:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * They have as much AL as a ranger and as much life as any char in the game o.O
 * If they were meant to be broken, then sure, I can understand, but I thought the whole point was balance? - Auron 11:10, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I can't find the link now but to quote Izzy: "an assassin's job is to get in, spike his little heart out, and get out, thats what they do and it's not going to change"....I can't see recall geting yet another nerf. As it is it's only broken in HB and that's because HB itself is very broken as we all know. -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 11:14, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * And by "only broken in HB" you mean GvG too?
 * Just yesterday I was guesting for a guild of fairly skilled players, guild rank ~200 (not great, but not absolute shit). We did 5 matches against even the most bullshit of builds (heroway, barbs/mark of pain and "packhunters," hexes and thumpers, hexes in general), and won them all. Our skill allowed us to outplay those builds, even if just barely (RaO is still a touch overpowered, in conjunction with spammable knockdown, deep wound, and daze). Then we went up against three teams in a row, each with a split of 2 sins and filler (Rt/E, Mo/A, Mo/E, whatever), and lost every time. Were we outplayed? Absolutely not! We beat balanced builds with real splits (BA and SoR emo etc), thus proving that it wasn't our problem dealing with splitting in general, it was the broken nature of the sins being allowed to suck at the game, and outperforming every other split based on a mere game mechanic. Taking pressure? No problem, recall! Getting spiked? No problem, recall! In fact, in most spikes (even split team spikes), enchantment removal is common. What happens when you strip a sin with recall? BOOM! He goes back to safety! What's not broken about that? Since when did wars get the chance to overextend four or five aggro circles into the enemy base, attack a target till shit hit the fan, then teleport out? It's utter bogus. - Auron 11:50, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * TBH i have more problems with the AoD sins on Isle of the Dead stepping through the wall right inside youre base and then leaving that Archer alive while they clear the rest of the base so they can go in and out as much as they like. But thas a seperate issue =/ -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 12:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Did anyone else lol? I believe that the nerf to Recall made it so that if you leave aggro circle, then you shadow step back. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Readem   Sorry, I'll stop trolling now.  23:39, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The last nerf made it so that it ended once you were outside of radar range. Before then it WAS being abused a lot more especially in GvG with having it on both a monk and a sin. -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 00:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you think I am such a fucking idiat, that I did not know that? Guess again. Readem   Sorry, I'll stop trolling now.  23:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If you don't have anything constructive to add then please stop adding. --Tankity Tank 00:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I will add because I can. And you? Readem   Sorry, I'll stop trolling now.  01:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I already did, wutsurpoint? --Tankity Tank 09:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Go away Readem. Don't make these skill discussions like GWO, ultimately useless to ANet because of the stupid amounts of trolling/flaming/e-peen contests. Keep your trolling up on skill talk pages or whatever if you want, but try to keep skill discussion useful. - Auron 09:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That is not an option, Auron. I am r troll, flame-flame-flame, and epeen <> (Actual Length). If these were indeed useful, I would stop. However Charm animal and Resurrection Signet are listed so... no :/. Readem   Sorry, I'll stop trolling now.  21:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Besides, people love me now. Readem   Sorry, I'll stop trolling now.  21:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I love them too btw, and I prefer a "no flaming environ" ig =). Readem   Sorry, I'll stop trolling now.  21:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

This is one of those skills which require a direct counter to Shadowsteps, and accent the reason they are needed. Beside that, Shadowsteps as a whole were reduced in distance to prevent them from traveling all around the map to reach a blocked foe, but since Recall allows them to travel to a location outside of their agro circle, one simple nerf would be to add an additional limitation which prevented it from traveling even more, effectively ensuring they do not shadowstep more than twice the distance of their danger zone. I don't have alot of experience with this skill, since I don't PvP regularly, but there are creative ways to counter this build, they just don't exist yet.

One is to create a lasting hex, or add additional effects to a few hexes which would cancel the next or all shadowsteps used for the duration, this way if a foe has recall and they are countered by this hex, when the try it use it they will lose the enchantment but the shadowstep would fail.

Two is to add broad counters to shadowsteps, causing slowing hexes and cripple to reduce the distance covered by the same percent that movement speed is reduced, that way if a foe shadowsteps to you with cripple, he only goes half way, or alternatively, he can only shadowstep once he is half the normal distance, forcing him to close in before the shadowstep is activated. And likewise with something like recall, only half the distance is traveled, or a maximum can be set so even long range shadowsteps do not exceed the range of their danger zone wile under a speed reduction. In compensation, All shadowsteps can be adjusted to be used more frequently.

And Three, create or alter hexes, Wards, DoTs, Traps and Rituals to provide effects which limit, or punish Assassins for Shadowstepping, either by clipping distance, dealing damage, stopping them cold or cancelling them. Something like shadowstepping through a Ward Against Foes will stop a Shadowstep from continuing further, or a Binding Ritual which deals X damage to foes who shadowstep in its effect, or Spike Trap stopping and knocking down foes who shadowstep through it.

It is important to note that if counters to shadowsteps as a whole are introduced, than their frequency as a whole needs to be improved, and really they should be, because self restriction is a poor balance tool, foes should always be required to consider and weigh counter needs for different builds and make judgement calls.--BahamutKaiser 19:00, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Shadow Stepping is not overpowered. People don't like Recall because it can be canceled while outside of casting range, or even when KDed. Personally, I have no problem with it. Readem   Promote My Ban Here  19:05, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm really not interested in what people don't like or don't have a problem with, the issue is relavent because this skill does not have a reasonable counter, and all abilities should have a counter. And because many shadowsteps don't have counters, they have to be nerfed in order to self restrict themselves, which makes them weak, boring, and often infrequent.  As I said, counters should be introduced so there is a way to combat Assassin techniques, because that is the way a strategy game is suppose to work, and in compensation, many shadowsteps can be increased in frequency, with lower recharge times.  This is really my overiding interest, because shadowsteps like Deaths Charge and Dark Prison are not frequent enough to be enjoyed in regular play, and without legitimate counters, Anet resorts to self regulation, which is not strategy it is just supression.  This is a broader problem which is effecting the strategy gameplay, dynamics, and overall enjoyment of the profession and the ability which needs to be adressed as a whole.


 * But thanks for noticing something additional, the ability to remove the enchantment and teleport wile knocked down is also unreasonable, and would serve as a reasonable counter, by causing all attemps to shadowstep wile knockdown to fail. This however does not address the wider concern about shadowsteps, and is still a difficult counter to maintain with a small force.--BahamutKaiser 19:31, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Of all the shadow steps Recall is the easiest to counter, he has the enchantment on him, simply remove it. It's not like its a stance thats hard to get them out of, its an enchantment...the easiest thing to remove! -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 21:32, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That is a liablity for the Assassin and his interests, but it offers little to the ability to kill the opponent. The issue here is how to prevent the foe from escaping, not how to sabatoge their advance.  Removing Recall is a diverting counter, there is yet no way to stop or punish a foe for shadowstepping.  In the end there are very few ways to catch a Recall Assassin if they intend to avoid you altogether, they can always cancel the enchantment before you even reach them.  Right now the only existing counter I understand is to locate the opponent they are bound to and them remove the enchantment, and try to take them both on, but since this is particularly problematic in GvG, and the opponent they are attached to is likely at or near a defended area, this still lack a good remedy.  Shadowsteps really need a counter, as do almost all abilities.


 * There is one thing I am wondering, has anyone tried scorpion wire?--BahamutKaiser 22:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Meh, it is too bad, for anyone to use or care about (Scorpion Wire). Recall is fairly balanced imo, as 15 Energy is harsh on anyone. It is also maintained, creating further complications. Finally, a miscalculation in distance, can ruin/significantly decrease a guilds chance of winning. Readem   Promote My Ban Here  22:11, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I thought I was reading the overpowered skills page... Shard 02:38, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Obviously, you just don't know what skills are overpowered, unlike I. Readem   Hate Mail Goes Here  06:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I think this skill is finnally balanced pretty good for GvG, but it's still a major issue in HvH, but I think there are a number of huge issues with HvH and it's hard to try and fix them with skills but I think if you where going to fix skills this would probably be the first on the list, I'm not sure if it will get changed or not but I'll bring it up in our discussions. ~Izzy @-&#39; 00:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * When I first asked for this nerf I was hoping assassins would be rebalanced for the HvH format, but basically that means they shouldn't be able to jump on an opponent and kill him in 5 seconds. As long as they can do that, they'll dominate HvH in it's current form. This means that nerfing Recall at this point would mean that the Mo/A Recall builds would disappear and they were the only real alternative to assassins. Now this might not be a bad thing, since top players like Jamesb R don't need Recall to begin with and simply use Return to counter SP. Personally I only stopped playing a Mo/W and switched to Mo/A not because I needed Recall to counter assassins, but because I needed it to counter all the other Recall tank builds. I assume Jamesb R is now using recall on his E/A for that same reason. Even if in the worst case only assassins would remain at the top, would it be a bad thing that people can't play their Recall tank builds anymore? I think not. At best, making Recall obsolete would open up more options for people to counter assassins. Enchantment removal against Recall in HvH is not effective, first of all because it's difficult to fit on a splitter and secondly because your hero might be on the other side of the map when you need it. Furthermore the ability to outmaneuver your opponent is not even the only advantage to Recall, it also allows you to save a hero from dying at a shrine out of your range which means you're denying your opponent a kill and thus a point. Some people suggest to add a negative effect to Recall if it's removed by your opponent or if you drop below 50% health, but this just won't do much good in HvH the way it is now. What needs to be nerfed is the range, plain and simple. Personally, I think it should at the very least be nerfed to half radar range. The only problem is it could still be abused on The Crossing, so you can either remove the Crossing (which I prefer, the map is just broken), redesign it or outright deny players the ability to shadowstep on the two bridges. In any case like you said the problems with HvH are impossible to fix with a skill balance alone. The only thing I, and a lot of other people, would like to know is when Anet is going to try and solve the huge issues with HvH? I've seen a lot of people who were really good at creating unique and balanced hero team builds leave because of the state HvH is in now, only to see them replaced by people who couldn't care less about how imbalanced the format is and simply copy a build to farm reward points or win real prizes during the monthly tournament. I fear that by the time HvH and the AI eventually do get a significant update, everyone who would have cared will already be gone. --Draikin 21:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

In the end here are my impressions of this skill. A.) This makes splitting too easy to do and destroys positioning and movement, which drives me insane. B.) I think this skill is horrible in Hero Battles. C.) I don't think this skill adds to interesting game play. That being said I've changed this skill a number of times and I'll probably change it more, I didn't include a change to this this update because I was mainly focused on the block meta, but I'm sure I'll do some tweaks to this soon. ~Izzy @-&#39; 21:54, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I believe reducing the range (1.5 x earshot for example) and reducing the energy cost would allow for more "active" use of the skill, unlike the way it's being used now. --Draikin 01:01, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think taking away from it's function would make it useless, like the reduced range and what not. I also find it kind of silly that this dominated split tactics, yet advancing shadowsteps are still suppressed so much.  One easy way to make this ineffective is add a negative effect to it wile enchanted.  Something like reduced armor, reduced attack speed, nothing silly like cracked armor..... but something naturally determental that would make this reasonable.


 * Also, there could be limitations like, after the next 10 attack skills or attack spells you automatically return, or after the next 10 times your hit you automatically return, it could also function as a safety return, if damage brings your health under 20% you automatically return.


 * I just have 2 very serious issues with changing this. First of all, I would be glad that this is changed, and value is put onto the lot of advancing shadowsteps instead, and give assassin the surprise value they needed all along.  Secondly, this is a damn expensive skill, and no matter how valuable it is, if your going to add some manner of determental effect to balance out it's value (basically reduce it's value) the cost needs to go down along with it, I'm getting very tired of one sided nerfs where a skill is diminished because of advantage and the cost is still set high for a value it no longer has, it's entirely unreasonable.  Like lets say you reduce the range to just beyond earshot, or the radius of a spirit effect, the cost needs to go down to 5 or 10 energy, naturally, it is being reduced in order to keep uber split advantage from being in play, but if it doesn't have that power, it shouldn't have that cost.--BahamutKaiser 05:18, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I fully agree on reducing the cost if the range is significantly reduced, but as long as it works in Compass range it will always be a problem in Hero Battles. I don't see a valid reason for shadow stepping skills to have that kind of range to begin with. However, even with a nerf to the range the problem in Hero Battles would remain on The Crossing, I think swapping the Mercenary shrine and Central shrine on that map is definitely needed or the dual Recall tank builds will still be usable there. Doing so would also make other shadow stepping skills (SP, Return) less imbalanced on that map. --Draikin 17:13, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe stick it in shadow arts and have it have a duration so they still cant cap as well, but they can gank. Something like 10-30 seconds.--96.233.54.238 22:01, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I like this idea, it needs a set duration or way shorter range.. --87.51.88.185 11:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it needs a WAY shorter range. Shinjinbukai  [[Image:USER_Shinjinbukai.jpg‎]] 22:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so I have a question here. I do have/had an account on the official wiki or the unofficial wiki or pvxwiki, somewhere, but i'm not on enough to merit it so it probably got deleted. Anyway. I saw the nerfs to this skill and...well i like shadowsteppin to escape. And as it is, that's hard to do. So why not change the way it's being balance? A much better way, in my humble opinion, would be to add a 50% failure with Shadow Arts, say, 5 or less. Maybe just 4 so you can't have a 12/12/3 attribute split. Or, slightly less logically, the same but 50%/5 in Critical Strikes? Less logically because...why should a shadow step depend on Critical Strikes? I don't know, but it would make it incredibly unreliable for anything other than a primary Assassin to use. The point of assassins, to quote Izzy from somewhere, is to "get in, spike their hearts out, and get out." This change would preserve that purpose, this skill, and nerf those annoying split sin teams that you just can't kill because they're NEVER WHERE THEY SHOULD BE. Yeah i'm one of them and i love it, but i have Monks doing the same thing. As such this would be a nerf of the best kind: One that for some people could be a buff. It might allow some of the other disadvantages of this skill to be addressed, such as the 10 second disable. Also, and almost most importantly, the failure would occur when trying to shadow step out, not when casting. So if it fails you're stuck in harms way. Sorry for that wall of text... <3 71.139.9.42 04:51, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't it be a good idea to change the skill to only work within earshot, reducing the costs to 10 energy, reducing the disable time to 5 seconds and increase the recast to 30 seconds? I prefer it this way, cause it maybe could help to balance HB without killing the skill itself... A. von Rin 17:20, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The ability for an assassin to deal over 100 damage from a single, 5 energy, spammable skill with no downsides, and even counts as a lead attack so the assassin can start a chain with it is nothing short of ridiculous. Since it comes in 3 hits, not even Protective Spirit or Spirit Bond can help. This skill is very frequently being abused in Team Arenas and needs to be fixed. 69.137.78.47 11:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The skill is fine, it's Deadly Paradox which makes it OP. Besides, it can be rather easily dodged if you kite properly(zigzag).84.40.188.84 11:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)HTS
 * If you kite properly? Eh have you played ever against it? First, assassin will be too close to you for you to kite properly. Second, explain to me how exactly will you kite properly as he will have something like KD skills on his bar (Sig of Judgement, Bane Signet, that assassin skill). I tried kiting but it's a joke really as I get knocked down and this kills me really fast. Servant of Kali 10:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 100 dmg? Try more like 80. ‽-(eronth) I gi  ve up  00:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * People run DA spammers with 11 Deadly Arts? Dodging it can be overcome by KDing the target first (either from Asp or SoJ), and it counts as a lead even if all three miss.  Anyway, Dancing Daggers is fine, the problem is Deadly Paradox.  If it weren't for Paradox, Dancing Daggers spam either wouldn't be possible, or would be getting owned by Shield of Absorption. Riotgear 00:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No, it wouldn't :/. Readem   Sorry, I'll stop trolling now.  07:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It would be easy to dodge if there were nothing except you and the sin using it. The problem is, if you're a monk you almost constantly have to heal someone, and/or are knocked down or snared by another enemy.  Let's compare this skill to Lightning Orb.  Same recharge time, approximately the same amount of damage after armor penetration (give or take 15), but the cast times are 1 second vs 2 second, and cost is 5 energy vs 15 energy and dancing daggers allows you to start an attack chain. 69.137.78.47 20:08, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * DDs need to be in half-spell range to even activate, plus the damage is 100% affected by armor. DDs also get screwed up by the huge amount of anti-spell hate in the game, plus they have aftercast delays as opposed to normal attack skills. Let's leave it as is. --arredondo 21:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill is massively used in TA, half of the time I win, half of the time I lose. And I hate losing to mindless gimmicks. I dont know if the problem is Paradox or this skill, but I'll join the crowd asking for a nerf. It sickens me that Assassin can kill me with a spell faster than ele or channeling Rt, and that Dancing Daggers build beats almost all other real assassin skills (u know, daggers). Servant of Kali 10:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't want GANK to win, so I am against DD. Readem  Sorry, I'll stop trolling now.  23:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem is deadly paradox. Dancing daggers is fine at 5/1/5 as a lead.  It really needs high investment in deadly arts to start looking attractive outside of DP builds anyway.  --Symbol 15:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 5 DD+SoTS still hurts like hell. Readem   Sorry, I'll stop trolling now.  22:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't forget it has half range. It was pretty much never played 'till Deadly Paradox came into the picture. --TimeToGetIntense 06:56, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Just have your RC look for the poison and twitch remove it :p --Tankity Tank 09:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, and by then they have SoS'ed the target, DDx5 + SoTSx5. Then 4 or 5 Augury's are being tossed around, so I would like to see you do such Tank =). Readem   Sorry, I'll stop trolling now.  21:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * With 1-second casts, it wouldn't be particularly hard to see someone's health bar twitching down, turn green, and realizing you have 1 second to cast Spirit Bond on them. That and SoTS and Entangling Asp both spend a lot more time on recharge without DP. Riotgear 22:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Spirit Bond? For Dancing Daggers? I kinda missed it then, how exactly does SB help? Servant of Kali 14:22, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't even ask...don't even ask lol. Readem   Sorry, I'll stop trolling now.  20:49, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * What about Frenzy, Healing Signet or Frenzied Defense to bring you over the 60 damage threshold? :D -- Gordon Ecker 20:58, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Or you can simply wear no armor at all, and truly be spirit bonding! Then you can have room for mimic, and get HH+Echo=win...lol Readem   Sorry, I'll stop trolling now.  21:08, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest you use that second for a condition remove. Spending 10 energy to nullify the effects of a 0 energy signet will annihilate your team quickly. However, playing against this build, you won't do anything like that, as you spent the time between EA and SoTS lying on the ground. TeleTeddy 09:10, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Spirit Bond is for toxic shock shock signet, failures.. &mdash; Skuld 21:11, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * And SS is to prevent SB...hmm, I think we are on to something here skuld! Readem   Promote My Ban Here  21:12, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, you were supposed to say "Inorite" not "failure" u failure! lrn to flame! jk lol Readem   Promote My Ban Here  21:13, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the people who thinks the problem with many deadly art builds is with Deadly Paradox and not Dancing Daggers. Without Deadly Paradox' half activation time of Assasin skill effect Dancing Dagger builds are much easier to shutdown with interrupts. ATM even if you cast Frustration on one of these Dancing Dagger Sins they will still have a casting time of 0.75 seconds which is still very fast and challenging to interrupt. It is also the fast casting time that makes it difficult for the other party to dodge these daggers b/c it comes out almost instantly. With 1 second casting people can at least anticipate the daggers and more effectively dodge. --216.113.201.34 12:52, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm just observing this, and I was wondering, what about using backfire, distraction, soul leach, stance breaks, and earth defense like Ward Against Elements. Aside from the fact that a full offense Assassin is likely to be a prime target for elimination, effectivly giving him something more to be concerned about rather than spamming, it is a half range skill, making counters like stance break more viable, and it the use of deadly paradox eliminates the use of his attack skills, an ability conveniently overlooked because its use is compromised.


 * I'm not going to say it isn't powerful, because it obviously is, what I'm going to say is why is that a problem? Is Assassin not suppose to be a high end spike damager?  Is it unfair for Assassin to deal competative spell damage at half range when he sacrifices all his attack abilities?  The only complaint I have is that Elementist doesn't have access to simular advantages to make them more viable.


 * This spell has a half dozen counters, but because it can't be defended against well it must be broken, A warrior or ranger with much higher defense vs earth damage can take these hits like a champ, and use Wild Blow to wipe off that stance more often that it can be cast, it can be distracted for major disability, it can be backfire or soul leach causing the Assassin to kill himself even faster than you, maybe even restoring you, several earth damage or high armor skills can be used, like Stoneflesh Aura, Ward Against Elements, oh just imagine using Mantra of Earth, 3 energy every time it is used. No we would never use Mantra of Earth, because seperate elemental defenses are never significant enough to consider a focused counter, yes anything playing outside of your convenient defense must be broken, and should be nerfed so you can play with the skills you feel are acceptable even if there are counters.


 * I don't see anything broken here, what I see is a communities failure to consider effective defensive options because they are comfortable with the metagames typical influence and don't want to trade off convenient defenses for something which is designed to exploit the opponents lack of preperation, not lack of counters. I think this comes down to a serious issue about Elemental Spell damage being overlooked as something which should be mitigated by steriotypical defensive abilities, and that most spells arn't enough of a threat, and elemental counters arn't convenient enough to make this a significant concern which foes have to prepare for instead of complain about because they got owned by a build which is easy to mitigate with simple preperation.  But since no one is willing to concider proper development of these skill types, how about excersising typical defenses like energy denial or the every present option of spiking the assassin which is clear range of all your attackers and a given target for liable defense?


 * Until I hear why all the counters available in the game are not effective against this build, this nerf call is totally bogus IMO. If for some reason a particular counter is ineffective against this, than maybe the counters should be improved, and if the use of the counter is too remote to consider, than maybe its the spells they are ment to defend that are not up to par, maybe, just maybe, the metagame is just unprepared for earth spell spam, and your just suffering from good preperation.  I don't see how this is any different than facing a hex heavy build without hex counters, oh hexes must be broken.  What if physical damage counters were not a part of the metagame?, would they be broken too?  A strategy game is suppose to incorperate enough alternatives to keep every opponent at risk of being unprepared, otherwise we may as well all share the same skills and duke it out for who can control their character better, I personally want more diversity and alternatives.--BahamutKaiser 13:55, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry to say, but you're completely wrong about this. Counters exists, that is true, problem is, however, that enemys have brains, too. One hex spell doesn't stop this assassin, as there MIGHT be a monk removing it. Anyway, it's very hard to hex the assassin in the first place, because it's a knockdown assa, and you're suggesting spells with long casting time. Distracting a spell that has a casting time of half a second is a very clever suggestion, too. Stance breakers do work, but they're very rare, require specific classes and don't come unconditional (lose all adrenalin, need lead attack, stuff like that). Even if you manage to get rid of the stance, the assa can still do knockdowns and stuff, use smiting skills, or wait that astonishing 10s until Deadly Paradox is recharged. But why do I argue? You said this build is easy to mitigate with simple preperation, but that is so very wrong, that one can tell your text is theory, but nothing more.
 * A counter doesn't make a spell or build balanced. Otherwise every single signet you can think of is balanced, no matter what effect it has. Because you can distract it, you can triple its casting time via Rust or even completely prevent usage with Ignorance. Spells/builds and their counters have to be in due proportion to each other, which is obviously not true for the Signet of Judgement - Deadly Arts Assa. One last remark: A balance based on counters will ruin the game eventually, because you have only that much skill slots for your defense. Using a great deal of counter skills ('cause you have to) will limit your offense, which is not the direction we want the game to evolve. - TeleTeddy 17:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The issue with Dancing Daggers is not it's power, it is it's spam, therefore, by putting in a distraction, the foe will naturally spam his way into disabling the skill he is constantly casting, that is common sense, hex removal cannot remove a hex which they are to busy spamming to avoid, and it can be cast by any number of the other teammates other than the one or two foes being knockdown, this is a team game. Assuming that a knockdown will break every player on an opponents team is also an oversight, obviously, a supporting teammate will try to bring in the counter, just like a supporting teammate brings in the healing power, if the Assassin is concerned he may go for the target which threatens him, but if the opponent is smart, he will use his team to keep himself concealed. Most of these are not obscure counters, many are spell counters which can be used on any caster, and hex covering can be used to overcome most hex removal attempts, mitigating between the opponents threat and support is part of any offensive tactic. Counters are what makes this a strategy game, you can pretend that the things your not willing to counter are broken and should be nerfed, but your perfectly willing to accept widespread condition and hex removal, physical damage blocking, and snaring, but you do not want to accept the widespread realm of spell counters, which are highly prevalent. This is about comfort and preferance, not acutal lack of options.

The limit of skills in the game and in your parties build will always leave holes in your defense, there is ment to be a compromise in functions in any team, and you simply have to hope your planning and intuition, as well as ability to play are better than your opponents. This idea that a few simple defensive functions should cover the wide majority of concerns is totally broken, opponents should always be interchanging builds as each tries to fortell the needs they will require in the battle, that is the soul of a strategy game. By observing and experience you will realize which builds are being used more, and adapt accordingly. The problem is that players think that whatever builds they perfer should remain the halmark, and everything else should be nerfed, reduced, and even removed from the game in order to suit their play style, it is a simple lack of resilience on their part, not a failure in the game.

This is a strategy game, it should uphold stratigic play with control, insight, and counter based combat, if for some reason the counters do not work effectively enough, than the counters should be improved and in some cases made more universal so they can be more useful, if your not considering the counters than your really just asking for the game to be reworked so whatever you find comfortable using has no competition. This entire discussion is a faust, your not even addressing the skill that is causing concern, there is a Deadly Paradox discussion where you can discuss the source of the issue, instead of attacking a good BUILD which doesn't fall into your defensive measures. If countering a caster is so hard, than it should be improved, if Deadly Paradox is too effective, it can be reduced. But this whole "it needs to be nerfed because I don't want or accept appropriate counters and strategic advantage" is totally bogus, this is why most of the skills, and even entire ability types and sometimes profession are being dropped out of the competition, if you want a game without strategic design, than go find a shooter.--BahamutKaiser 19:11, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think this skill is OK if you fix Augary and Deadly Paradox. This is getting residue infamy since it tends to share a spot on the bar with those two. Just a thought. love, Aran 21:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with people saying DD is fine. Deadly Paradox is the problem. If all those skills on the combo were 1s cast instead of .5, it'd be MUCH easier to control. Cry, DShot, etc. would be easily used. And Shadow Shroud to prevent prot wouldn't come up as often. DDagger is a skill decently balanced considering it's 5/1/5 and half range. For prot, Shielding Hands and Shield of Absorp both destroy its damage (and if they couldn't spam SS, would be quite easier to use). SoA would even throw all the SoTS to 0 damage if you managed to put it on target before DDaggers hit. But i know that listing counters is meaningless, but the thing mostly is that DDagger in itself is fine. What isn't fine is its cast time in Deadly Paradox, as well as the cast time of the rest of the combo. If you could interrupt it as another 1s cast, it'd be much more manageable, and you'd also have much more time to save the spike cause SoTS wouldn't activate so fast either Patccmoi 13:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Dancing Daggers is a crap skill. Deadly Paradox makes it look broken.  Scroll up on this page for that discussion. Shard 02:39, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This needs to be deleted or archived.--BahamutKaiser 05:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Quite frankly, just the fact that Dancing Daggers doesn't even need to hit to count as a lead attack is overpowered. Every other projectile attack is only effective if it hits. Why even bother making this a projectile spell when one of the main reasons for using it doesn't even require a hit. It would be like making it so that Horns of the Ox still causes the knockdown, even when it's blocked. --Curse You 02:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I am amazed and appalled that this has not been lowered to 5...20 yet. This does better damage than most elementalist skills. Done25 20:04, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The main problems with this skill is that it's a spammable, unconditional, unstoppable lead attack (unless you interrupt it). It really shouldn't count as a lead if none of the daggers hit.  This leaks out of the slightly larger problem that many combos are too easy to pull off. Shard 08:35, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree, compare to other skills in term of dmg and recharge and you will clearly see this skill is overpowered even with not taking to account deadly paradox, in combination it's just wrong. I always see this skill in the same gimmick build with 16 deadly arts, this skill is being abused in TA and RA. It's cheap, really really cheap and making it part of a combo is icing on the cake. Justgetmein 18:05, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I am pretty new to this whole wiki thing, but doesn't anyone find Shadow Form broken? Izzy seems to frown on passive skills, and it doesn't get any more passive or mindless for attackers than to just sit there unable to do anything unless they by chance had one or two niche skills to counter it. I dont do "real" PvP, I just AB (which is where I think this happens most), but I still think this skill is a problem and the concept of it needs to change I think.--Riceball 01:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It was only broken when Deadly Paradox allowed you to keep it up 100% of the time. Now that it's only temporary, it has very limited uses. Also, if you have warriors trying to attack through Shadow Form, you deserve to lose. 72.235.48.41 04:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * It's still maintainable 100% of the time, but the window is very small and the amount of energy needed to keep the chain going now that DP is 15e is very high minimizing the amount of damage the sin can do with an attack chain. In addition, anything that can disrupt the timing of the cast will kill the sin.  For example, interrupt or kd with a signet or use Shock just as you see the sin cast Arcane Echo or Shadow Form and the chain is broken (standard interrupts will not work, but since Shock is a touch skill, not spell or attack, it goes through).  Another drawback is the low health of the sin required to keep a bare minimum of 37e to cast Arcane Echo, DP, and Shadow Form (the regen while casting is why it doesn't need 40e), therefore any kind of indirect AoE easily kills an SF sin.  Skills like Flame Djinns and Ancestors Rage for example.  Also AoE targeting a player adjacent/nearby/in the area of the sin will also deal damage to it.  In addition all touch skills will work as well (Touch Rangers, Expunge Enchantments, etc).  So yes, the build may be annoying to kill if you run into it by yourself and you don't happen to have one of the many counters, but just move the other way and you'll be fine.  SF sins do very little DPS.  --Rururrur 08:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, my problem isnt really concerned with what they do attack wise. It was just more along the lines that it is a really lame skill.  Yeah, there is a drawback to it, but the concept just seems flawed to the overall nature of the game.--Riceball 21:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Any team who wastes a character slot on a shadow form assassin is going to lose anyway. Why are you comlpaining about this skill?  It has no viable uses. 72.235.48.41 09:05, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Shadow form is pretty gay tbh. Just another skill griefers have in their arsenal. Make it so the gap is 5 or so seconds. Thanks. -- Readem 03:16, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

lolololololol. Kissy Girl is it? (HA reference) -- Readem 23:41, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The problem with shadowform is that it CAN be maintain 100% of the time. And with the use of assasin skills such as heart of shadow, Deaths Charge and shadow of haste it makes it hard to catch the assasin. While shock might work, the fact is that a shadowform assasin can run a warrior around in circles without having to worry about the knockdown. In terms of interrupting, mantra of concentration or mantra of resolve is on many shadowform bars. It is activated just before arcane echo and then deadly paradox is used a just as it is about to finish casting - making it uninterruptable. What is needed is to interupt shadowform itself with a signet, but once shadow form is down, the assasins escape skills can still be used to try and survive untill shadowform recharges. The skills can also be used to ensure the assasin is on the other side of the map for their teams mesmer while casting shadowform. Teams without signets that can interupt have no chance. The amount of healing that deaths charge and heart of shadow deliver can easily out-heal the indirect damage that is taken by most teams.

A good player can keep it up for hours... an average one usually can grief for about 30 minutes. (Generic 15:00, 17 January 2008 (UTC)).

Buff Expunge Enchantments so that it can compete with rending touch as a utility skill. Drop the recharge to 20seconds. You still disable all non attacks and it costs 10e which is a little more taxing on a Warrior/Sin/Dervish. This may encourage more to use this skill for the invinci enchantments (Shadow Form, Spell Breaker, Obs Flesh <-- Pve Trash)or enchantment stacks, I often use it already Just wish the recharge was smaller. --CRASH 03:55, 22 January 2008 (UTC).

WTS Shock, Shove, Choking Gas, Nature's Renewal, Tranquility, Energizing Wind, Signet of Disenchantment, Grapple just to name few possible skills to use for "balanced" on HA. Gimmick teams got their own gimmick counters then... 137.163.16.66 09:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Idea: MistForm for spells + single target Shield of Deflection. "Form. All stances are removed and spells are disabled for 5...17...20 seconds. For 5...17...20 seconds, you take no damage from spells and you have 75% chance to block. (10 energy, 1 cast, 45 recharge)" --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 21:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Either make it lose all enchantments to prevent echo from functioning with it, or give it a non-reducable disable like Dervish forms. 66.66.2.63 18:21, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Shattering Assault
I cant belive no one has put this skill up here yet. I mean are you kidding me?? This is no doubt one of the most if not the very most overpowered skills in the game. With a modest 14 in dagger mastery, this skill does +47 dmg TWICE and removes TWO enchantments and is UNBLOCKABLE and is SPAMMABLE every 4 seconds. THIS IS INSANE! What other elite in the game even comes close? THERE IS NONE!!! I mean cmon!! Thats over 100 dmg removes 2 enchants, unblockable, spammable. PS does nothing because it spreads it over two attacks, not that you would even be able to keep ps on yourself since it removes 2 enchants every time. Plus with the added combo of Golden Fox Strike, Wild Strike (also overpowered), and Shattering there is nothing you can do to stop it. They are all unblockable and they remove any stance or damage reduction you could possibly have. PLUS THEY ARE SPAMMABLE!!! 4 Second recharge on all of these! ARE YOU KIDDING ME!! This is only 3 skills on the bar too!! That leaves 5 extra skills for whatever you choose. I cant believe this combo is even in the game. I just dont understand what is the point of spending so much energy on trying to block if there are unblockable skills like this. For that matter, any enchants against this are a waste of energy because it removes them so fast. Stances same thing. Have you seen the gayness this build causes when added to fear me? Yes, u dont lose any adren when using wild strike for sin. If not, dont worry, its spreading fast and will soon be everywhere Im sure. Seriously I belive no one class should have unblockable attacks by themselves, it is too unbalanced, they should have to rely on another person I.E. nec or rit or whatever and the skills should be under primary attributes so you cant use it as a secondary profession. These 3 little skills are just completly overpowered and need to be changed. Make them blockable, ffs. Or make the recharge to 15 seconds. Or just remove them from the game for all I care, just do somthing about this BS combo.

Heard RoF was gud. -- Readem 03:15, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

This skill is just fine as it is.Prokiller88 04:14, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like you just got pwned in RA! lolz gg! -- ChronicinabilitY  05:28, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok fine why dont we make every elite in the game do 100 dmg remove 2 enchants, remove stance, unblockable, with a 4 second recharge. Sounds like a fun balanced game to me

Fine if you want to keep this, then give monks a skill that heals for 200, gives you 4 enchantments, gives you 2 stances, gives you 100% chance to block, with a 2 second recharge.
 * zomg learn to play or stop posting! -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 06:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
 * sign your comments and calm down, ranting just makes you look like a troll, and mum always says not to feed the trolls. Just so you know, this skill is is the underpowered section too, and they have a more civilised discussion about it there. This skill is only barely useful now that the main elite of choice (cough, shadow prison) was nerfed into line. The damage it does is not armour ignoring, it isn't even +damage, so basic duals like death blossom do a lot more, and duals doing over 100 damage is nothing new, ever been hit by twisting fangs? Also, There's nothing stopping you blinding the sin, or just healing though the (rather paltry) damage or just killing the sin first, yes it's a powerful build for debuffing, but at least it isn't another 3 second kill build like we've all learned to hate recently. --Ckal Ktak 08:41, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
 * "Ok fine why dont we make every elite in the game do 100 dmg remove 2 enchants, remove stance, unblockable, with a 4 second recharge. Sounds like a fun balanced game to me"
 * This skill does not do 100 unconditional damage, does not always remove 2 enchants, and does not remove stances. You forget, the assassin has to be next to its target.  Also, it has to not be blind or have miss% hexes on it.  Also, it has to land at least one other attack skill before SA.  Thanks to a semi-recent update, it removes enchantments after damage, so a carefully placed RoF will cause this skill to do zero net damage.  Armor and damage reduction laugh at this skill.  Don't get me wrong, Shattering Assault is good, but it's nowhere close to broken. Shard 11:59, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thiss kiddie sounds like a 55hp monk/130hp derv who has run afoul of a fair game strategy of enchantment removal. --Ckal Ktak 12:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
 * First, incase anyone doesn't know, this skill is ALWAYS run with the attack combo Golden fox strike>Wild strike>Shattering assault. That explains the "remove stance part" of the other guy's comment, I hope, and should explain my assumptions to anyone that is not very farmiliar with this build.  Oh, and I'm just going to cover this skill from a HA point of view to save time.  Now, to my actual points.  Warmonger's weapon on a good shattering assault sin is what makes this skill really powerful, especially in HA, NOT an imbalance in the skill mechanics alone.  By itself its a decent skill with a strong effect and ok pressure, but with that skill, this build becomes highly able to shut down monks.  With just warmongers weapon, the prevelant blocking can deal with the interruption pressure decently.  With just shattering assault, you can do good pressure while ignoring block.  With BOTH, you remove all blocking prots, damage reduction prots, etc, and are guarenteed to interrupt if you attack when a spell is being cast.  Blind may still work, but is far easier for the sin's teamm to deal with.  Snaring the sin is the best option, but keep in mind most builds running an assassin have very powerful snares to use on you as well.  Ok, so for anyone that can't see the direct effects of this, mostly people that haven't monked much, heres how this hurts common builds: WoH/infuser bar: even with a 40/40 set, there is a rather low chance of getting WoH off.  RoF is your spell with the best chance of getting off that can be used for general purposes, but is not as reliably potent as WoH, and therefore will probably require a decent amount of spamming to try to keep up with the pressure.  Ok, everyone spams plenty in HA, but that's because they have channeling which is, guess what, removed along with your prots.  Infuse is obviously still usable, but infusing while being pressured by a frontliner, even a mostly pressure one, is just begging to be spiked down, in this case impaled.  RC: same cast time problem as WoH, same RoF, etc, etc.  Not quite as dangerous if this monk is shut down, because the WoH has more potent self heal abilities.  This bar has RoF.  Nothing else.  Because the prots that make prot monks strong will all be shattered easily. HB: oh boy! A bar that casts twice as fast, relys more on very strong heals than protting or block, and is usually run on a 3 monk backline!  Well, untill HB is shattered.  This monk is the easiest to shut down, as many don't carry 1/4 cast spells, relying on the fast casting to evade interruption easily.  The 3 monk backline part usually makes fights agains shattering assault sins turn out better though.  Reading this over, I realize my intent may not be completely clear, but it's basically this; this skill is not overpowered, but seems as such because of an overpowered synergy with another (arguably imbalanced) skill.  This is based on my experences so if you have lost to shattering assault assassins without warmonger's, don't start flaming, just calmly explain what YOU have seen.  As far as how long this was...I guess I may deserve to be flamed for that :\ 71.31.148.123 06:05, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I read your thoughtful post and saw almost nothing that relates to shattering assault being broken. You mentioned it's good because of warmongers, it's good because of wild strike, and it's good because the previous two attacks are unblockable.  A shattering assault assassin is still a physical that requires not being blind, hexed with miss% effects, crippled, or snared, at least 2 of which every team runs.
 * While the SA bar makes it remarkably easy and a little gimmicky for a front-liner to remove most of his target's prots and utilities, it does not break the game in any way. The SA assassin has all the same drawbacks as any other physical (except blocking, obviously).
 * The problem is not with Shattering Assault - it is with all the lead attacks that can't miss. Golden Fox Strike and Dancing Daggers, to name a few, are the main reason this skill sees so much play.  If a SA sin had to be awake to see if his first attack went through, you would be way less annoyed by them. Shard 03:20, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion it does just fine as it is. There are other was to protect a target other than protting. Weapon spells, paragon shouts and snares on the sin do a good job(Generic 14:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)).
 * snares on a character with shadow steps...--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 21:41, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Shadow Prison
not overpowered so much now after numerous nerfs, but it seems odd that assassins have a snare that slows down more than mesmers. I'd say bring the snare down to 50% decreased movement to make Crippling Anguish/Ethereal Burden/Kitah's Burden/Imagined Burden less pitiful. The shadowstep-snare bar compression on 20 cooldown (the only rivals are both elite, Aura of Displacement/Beguiling Haze) is good enough for the elite status. This is not really declaring SP as overpowered as much as balancing out professions' strengths. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 20:44, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

If your point is that an assassin has a better snare than a mesmer....>.> Mesmers do not have the strongest snares that would be water eles. Also please note that Shadow Prison is an assassin skill and is thus suited....for an assassin. If skills are bad, they are bad regardless and nerfing something else doesn't make them better skills. If its not over powered it really should not be here Anyways Shadow Prison doesn't necessarily need percentage nerfs --Ensoriki 18:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Shadow Prison lasts a small fraction of the amount of time mesmer snares last. 69.137.78.47 20:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Is this a troll, because sp has been killed.. and your kicking it down more. Prokiller88 23:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Water eles have a whole line that basically does pitiful damage aside from the elite Shatterastone and *maybe* Frozen Burst. The line is MADE for snares and Blurred Vision and that's about it. Deadly arts is not made only for snaring, it has much more damage and utility outside of snares. SO no, this is not a trolling comment...--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 21:38, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Shadow Prison is an elite and only one out of 2 shadow step snares and comparing a spell caster to a melee/caster hybrid is not fair comparing water eles to an assassin is like comparing a owl to a monkey, which you really can't do because they were made to do different things. Assassins have 2 damage attributes while eles have 4. So no there is no reason to "balance" out the percentages because it's fine as it is. Prokiller88 01:31, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * An assassin without daggers is running a gimmick. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 23:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * So then an assassin running axe or scythe is just a gimmick and they can't kill you as fast or even faster compared to if they run with daggers?
 * Not if your team is smart... But where did the "assassin without daggers" comment come from? I see nothing leading up to it. Non sequitors for the win? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 22:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh crap, I mean 3 damage attributes, I forgot crit strikes. Prokiller88 01:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * ...what's the third? They have daggers and crits. What else? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 07:32, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The whole of deadly arts maybe? You must've seen assassacasters before. That attribute sits so well on its own that you can make a good build and only use half of your attribute points, or you could just use those points with smiting prayers for SoJ like everyone else. --Ckal Ktak 08:35, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I dunno if you missed the update, but deadly arts is worthless now. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 20:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

16% more slowdown than mesmer snares and you want it nerfed? Someone's just getting picky... (Terra Xin 17:24, 2 February 2008 (UTC))
 * lol. It has "not assassin flavor" written all over it.--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 02:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * jez These skills arn't the only way to use deadly arts, there are other ways to get a quick kill in with it. Metal Sazz 21:56, 29 april, 2008 (UTC)

sinsplit in GvG

 * its boring to see, it ruined the mAT for me, and it suprises me that people who can smash 1 2 3 can win. do anything to assassins to kill it.
 * Sins aren't the problem. The unkillable defense is. Lord of all tyria 21:49, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's both. Some sin splits can kill 2 monks. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 08:53, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Black Lotus Strike got an extremely justifiable nerf, only for another instagib bar to pop up with Falling Lotus Strike serving largely the same role. Does way too much damage and provides way too strong of a secondary effect for a condition that Trampling Ox has made extremely easy to satisfy. 66.66.2.63 18:15, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Few assassin skills cause knockdown. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 01:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Trampling Ox and Horns of the Ox are easily enough. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 06:33, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm still not seeing this "instagib" combo of yours appearing on every single skillbar I go up against, so it can't be that bad. May have just been the shadow prison nerf to 25 seconds which made them so pants now. --Ckal Ktak 08:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Did anyone mention instagib? Doesn't have to be instagib to be overpowered. The problem with BLS was that you could hit a guy with a snare and not have to worry about energy for the rest of your combo. The question is whether this does that too. All you have to do is bring a KD - which you should do anyway for utility - and you get around 11 energy. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 09:31, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

That was the idea behind making this skill. It has opened up so many more comboes, which was the reason the Sp combo was so powerful, at least this adds some variety in how I die. More importantly, the knockdown is another skill on the already crowded bar, these combo sins rarely have any survivability of their own. Instagib was mentioned in the OP btw. --Ckal Ktak 12:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Falling lotus does not provide a large amount of energy, 11 energy is only enough for a 10 e dual attack or a 5 e dual attack with impale. Prokiller88 15:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * there's only one 10 energy dual, Shattering Assault. I doubt you'd use Falling Lotus for that. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 14:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Theres another one, twisting fangs. Prokiller88 18:53, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * guess I use impale too much. I stand corrected.--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 01:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Twisting is teh secks. Generally, though, you'd go Falling Lotus --> Dual --> Offhand --> Dual if you want to abuse the energy gain. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 04:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Twisting Is a decent finisher in a 4 dagger attack combo, not as good as blades or umm the other dual attacks. Prokiller88 22:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

So basically anything that gives an assassin energy during a combo promotes instagib and is overpowered 0.0;--The Gates Assassin 03:26, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Pretty much any assassin combo requires Lotus somewhere amongst it to either be able to power of the heavy hitting combo (and whatever other magic you used) or to maintain short-recharge pressure chains, that's why this skill and jus tplain Loptus strike were introduced. --Ckal Ktak 19:08, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Black Lotus Strike provided a convenient lead skip and a good deal of energy to keep hard-hitting combos going and bring energy up for another one sooner. That was deemed to be a problem, I shouldn't need to explain why, go look in the archive. Falling Lotus Strike does the same thing for the new gimmick bar, so there's really no reason to leave it in its current state. 66.66.2.63 17:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Black Lotus provided up to 20 e. Falling lotus only provides up to 12e.Prokiller88 01:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC)