ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Assassin/The Problem with Assassins

OK, any (civil) comments, put them here. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:82.12.255.242 (talk). Update: For the skills, I have added whether the suggestion is generally a BUFF, NERF or CHANGE (i.e. could be seen as either). --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:86.26.51.133 (talk).

Assassins Offense lacks a lot
The problem i see on Assassins: They re not Assassins at all. Gimped Warriors maybe (same damage, lower armor) but definitely not Assassins. The Assassin needs to be an effective/fast single target murderer. As the issue says Assassins need to be the best spikers of the game, in order this profession to have any value at all. As an assassin you fight right in the heat of the battle, the most dangerous place to be - melee, without having the increased armor of your cousin profession - the Warrior. You put your life in greater danger than any other profession out there, with solely one purpose - to assassinate some enemy target that has to go down fast - maybe even solely from yourself. All these +30-+40 attacks on dagger mastery are a joke. I want to play my Assassin on PVE in groups and be effective with my daggers - not Ursan, not Fire Magics, not Bows, no nothing - just daggers, like the Factions gamebox shows her to have. Eth 14:55, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, assassins *should* be able to spike and maybe even significantly better than any other class. The difficulty is in keeping them balanced at the same time. I guess high-powered spikes are OK though if they have long enough recharges. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:86.26.200.58 (talk).
 * I think the problem is the skill chaining gimmick. IMO they should increase the damage on daggers to about 80% of a sword and remove the skill chaining system completely. This would give rangers an alternative to running sway as they could have a wide range of 5 energy attacks with excellent bar compression. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.64.4.234 (talk &bull; contribs) at 21:16, September 2, 2008 (UTC).
 * Yeah, but making R/As viable is not a good reason to buff daggers. That said, increasing base dagger damage and decreasing bonus damage on skills (to balance it out) would be a good idea since then assassins would be able to get some meaningful pressure from autoattacking. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:82.9.25.106 (talk).
 * Assassins shouldn't be able to pressure with Auto attacks, because they are the most mobile prof in the game. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  14:24, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, even if it was improved, it would probably still be inferior to both warriors and dervishes. I agree with you though, in that Assassins need the poor pressure to balance their mobility and also their spike capability. I don't think Assassins should be forced to play a certain type of build (i.e. spike builds), however, even if most viable builds are (i.e. there should be one or two viable non-spike builds too). --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:82.26.74.69 (talk).

We have a problem here...
First, I'd like to say I applaud you for making a decent, detailed suggestion page. We certainly don't get that much around here, we certainly could use more of it. That being said, I removed all of the "For my suggestion, go to this page" posts. My reasoning is not only does this manner of posting clutter up the pages, it makes it difficult for izzy to browse the suggestions. Furthermore, having many skill suggestions here makes this page hard to read. I would request that you post all of you tweaks in their appropriate sections. Thanks. -- NUKLEAR   IIV  19:28, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, fair enough. Copy and paste then, I guess (really I was just too lazy). --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:82.26.69.135 (talk).

A problem with the suggested changes...
Ok. You seem to be saying that assassins should either be able to spike, or have utility. However, a number of these changes go against both those ideas- lowered damage, higher recharges on some, and highly conditional skills being buffed in ways that wouldn't change them in the slightest (Leaping Mantis, for example). Buffing skills to require a moving target just limits assassins more- now, you could think "oh, auto attack damage is low, can't pull off a combo unless I'm moving... time to stand still and ignore it!". Currently, our spikes are mildly terrible compared to other classes. The chains are exceedingly easy to break, and often have damage comparable to a warrior spike or dervish spike, despite being easier to defend against. I know, someone will argue that we're more mobile, but the thing is, they can use our shadowsteps just as well as we can to get around. I confess to being an assassin main, but I'd really like to see us be an option- not required, but an alternative to warriors or dervishes (or R/Ds and A/Ds... I don't consider A/Ds assassins). For that to happen, we need to be brought more in line with them- similar, though slightly weaker abilities (aside from spiking). If shadowsteps became assassin only, then maybe we could tolerate being on par spikers and slightly below average- not far below as we are now, but slightly- for utility and support. Until that happens, our class defining ability is used better by other classes, because they have the utility or higher damage that we don't. --Kalas Silvern 03:30, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi I heard I'm a spike comparable to Eviscerate/Executioner's and very easy to defend against, confirm/deny please. --71.229.253.172 05:25, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Spikes like the Backbreaker sin's ones are way too powerful right now, especially in arenas like HB (due to the often single-healer teams and lack of Aura of Stability et.c.). As to what you said about the suggestions, higher recharges are imo a good thing, since if assassin spikes are made as powerful as other spikes or more so, that would really be their only drawback. Buffing conditional skills admittedly doesn't solve the problem of attack chains needing them being unreliable, but it means that if you do take a skill like Leaping Mantis Sting, you're rewarded if you can pull it off. Skills which have been given lowered damage have either been buffed in some other way or are the ones which needed to be nerfed. Please remember that this page isn't suggesting that all assassin skills are buffed up to make them super-spikers, rather that they should be more balanced. While I believe assassins should be the best at spiking and less good at everything else, some spikes (*cough* Backbreaker *cough*) are just OP and so still need to be nerfed. 81.107.196.50 15:53, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * First: Block = gg to that spike, as does blind. (Just like normal spikes!  GASP!)  Also, that spike requires a hammer, and, like escape scythe, is an example of using a mechanic from another class to create something broken.  I'm talking about non-gimmick spikes, ones that can be done by an assassin, while the assassin retains some semblance of utility on his/her bar, at the cost of lowered pressure.  As I said before, assassins in MOST cases are sub-par spikers compared to dervs, slightly worse than warriors since said warriors can bring a comparable spike AND utility, and have exceedingly restrictive means of pulling off a spike due to the combo system.  Warriors and dervishes get to spike using their own classes' mechanics, why don't sins have working ones using just our mechanics anymore?  --Kalas Silvern 01:09, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * First: Blocking and Blinding are all well and good, but most people don't have blocking abilities active all the time, and unless you have a stance then once you get hit by Backbreaker there's nothing you can do. Admittedly, an ally can sometimes save you, but in settings such as Hero Battles, your team is often split up and/or has only one healer, which is why HB is where the BB sin is so powerful. While I agree with you that it probably doesn't count as a "pure" or "proper" build, it's still an issue which needs to be addressed. Also, there are plenty of "non-gimmick" spikes which are so fast that it's hard to get off a 1 second Guardian in time, especially if they pack Horns of the Ox or some other KD.
 * However, I agree with what you're saying in that assassins should be able to spike and have a bit of utility on them - in my mind an assassin could in fact take a skill or two for utility, an attack chain (e.g. Lead -> Off-hand -> KD -> Falling -> Dual) and a res sig so that they can contribute to a team between spikes. That's why I'm suggesting buffing things like crippling skills, interrupts, and (if you see the corresponding spell page) some utility/non-attack skills.
 * The thing is that assassin chains aren't easy to break (they are generally faster and sometimes ignore blocking et.c. and with Assassin's Remedy blinding doesn't even always work), but they are completely broken (i.e. if you miss your off-hand, you can't use your dual attack) as opposed to warrior and dervish spikes which can continue if one skill fails. Thus, I'm suggesting that these spikes be kept powerful but with longer recharges so that while they can happen, they can't happen as often, and you take a risk in that if your spike fails you have to wait a while before you can use it again. I feel that this would also encourage assassins bringing utility since with more downtime between spikes there's more time wasted if they don't bring something to do. 82.27.252.185 15:54, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * First: Thank you for actually addressing points instead of the usual "O My God sinz is unbalanced and fans3rvice" that I normally get for promoting any changes.
 * I concede, you can't have block/blind skills up constantly, but they really aren't that hard to use. While you got the idea (utility with spiking ability at the cost of pressure or weaker utility), I don't think I explained one of my points well... or at all.  I personally feel that requiring us to use 5 attack skills if we want anything remotely resembling a powerful spike is a bit... limiting.  I'm not including and IAS, a shadowstep, a self heal for RA, AB, etc., an IRS, or something to snare that isn't part of your attacks.  Warriors can spike in 2-3 skills, if you leave out the types I mentioned in the previous sentence.  Same number for dervishes, and they're spammable (The warrior ones aren't spammable per se, but are usable just as often as sin ones- except they do something that resembles damage during their skill recharges).  I feel that requiring an assassin to bring five (or more) attacks just to spike at a similar amount (or a slightly better amount), while essentially limiting them to two slots of utility if they have a rez signet... well, it's rather unfair.  The counter would be "But they have mobility!".  Which they do.  Every twenty to thirty seconds.  And at the cost of ANOTHER skill slot.  One left for utility... and you need an IAS to spike as quickly as you implied.  Not to mention that other classes can use the mobility aspect of these quite well in many cases.  I'm not advocating two skill kills, I'm advocating reasonable compression on assassin skill bars.  The old 4 attack combos (o-d-o-d) were an example of this, though some may have been a little too strong.  We didn't have an option though if we wanted to be comparable- the root of the problem, again, being that we have no bar compression (aside from the nerfed Shadow Prison), and we require more skills than other classes to do the same thing.  Now, I don't know about you, but having equal spike capability, less utility by virtue of requiring more skills to do the same thing, and no pressure whatsoever really doesn't seem fair to me.  I'd say that downtime is not the answer, since that will just damage the class further.  What we need is to keep current recharges (15 recharge should honestly be the highest on any dagger attack skill we have, since they aren't hard to stop unless we have a way to start with a knockdown) and have our combos thoroughly looked at and compressed.  We need to be allowed to move away from insta-gibs with 5 attacks, a primer, an IAS, and a rez, and move towards useful, non-instakill spikes(that are slightly stronger than warriors and dervishes), while retaining some semblance of utility and reduced (but not negligible) pressure.
 * The final point comes down to this (this bullet point is for those too lazy to read the above block of text). The damage classes seem to have three key things.  Spiking, Utility, and Pressure.  All but sins have a balance of them- dervs have high spiking/pressure and mediocre utility, warriors have high utility/pressure and spiking that is adequate for killing- not top of the line, but still rather good.  Assassins used to have spiking... which they are now on par with the other two at, and have far less utility AND pressure.  They need to make Assassins the third in that trio- Good(though not as good as wars) Utility, Good Spiking, and mediocre (read: Not high) pressure.  That balances out the three melees by giving them all a role to play- assassins spike the best, dervs have the highest pressure, warriors have the best utility, and are the middle ground in the other two areas- while making it so it isn't a liability to bring one due to it lacking what is necessary to be efficient and effective (those are different, for those who think they're the same.  You can be effective without being efficient). --Kalas Silvern 04:17, 14 October 2008 (UTC)


 * In essence, I agree. Sins should have the best spiking capablities at the expense of pressure, and ideally be able to take some utility too. I also agree that needing leads for off-hands and off-hands for duals and so on really limits what you can do with a sin bar. Sure, you've got things like Black Spider Strike and Golden Phoenix Strike help, but they still require something which is going to take up another slot (like a hex or enchantment). The old lead -> off-hand -> dual chains would be fine, since they leave lots of free slots, but aren't always powerful enough. The only problem is that buffing assassin skills is a risky business, since there are a lot of annoying and sometimes OP builds out there. The real thing I had against Backbreaker, for example, is that once it's been started, there's nothing you can do about it. Unblockable skills like the Golden Fox Strike -> Wild Strike -> Shattering Assault chain are also very powerful, since the only way you can avoid them is by kiting (which is no good if they have a speed boost) or with blinding (or something niche like Blurred Vision). That particular chain is also quite nasty since you can't really use stances or enchantments at all while you're being attacked by it, since they just get removed again so quickly. Hence, though assassins need some buffs, they need to be carefully thought out ones, and prefferably ones which favour sins in larger battles, since in RA, TA and HB they're already quite powerful (teams often have less counters there for example). --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:82.3.255.222 (talk).

The real problem..
..is Assassins will never again be able to fulfill their names as assassinators thanks to Isaiah Cartwright simply because he's had too many experiences against them (losing mainly I bet). Henceforth, nerf after nerf began unleashing on the flourished class, and so they're now reduced to much more fragile versions of Warriors. They've been forced to go toe to toe melee style with nothing viable enough in their own line of skills to compete. It's pretty bad when Isaiah even went so far as to assassinate skills so badly that they don't even make sense when compared to just regular skills! Where's the balance in that?! Anyway, assassin's are no longer capable of assassinating shiet simply because of Isaiah said so... GG for tailoring the game to the way you want it at the player's expense. --Ulterion 20:03, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Um, just a few days before you posted there were buffs to Mark of Insecurity, Wastrel's Collapse and biggest of all, Palm Strike. The latter was an OK skill already, certainly good for beginners who could get it in Kaining City and use it to get straight to dual-attacks; now it's OP and people are running it not just in HB, RA and TA but also HA now as well (and probably GvG too, but I haven't seen it). The problem seems more to be loads of assassin hate followed by irrational super-buffs, which then force even bigger nerfs. But yeah, I kinda agree that assassins have been nerfed a lot, it's just that in certain instances they are in fact much too powerful. What we need is a balance between the two (skilled assassin builds would be good - I don't mind being owned by them quite so much if it's at least someone good and not someone key-mashing). 81.107.212.123 22:39, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Thoughts
Assassins are currently the most mobile class in the game. They also have some of the hardest hitting solo spikes, which are typically balanced through long recharges. These two strengths make the assassin overpowered in situations where mobility and retardspike damage is required, namely HB and GvG splits, and incredibly underpowered elsewhere. Assassins make horrible stand frontliners because they can't pressure for dick, and they cant spike at stand either due to attack chain limitations and prot. They are useless in HA for these same reasons, they cant pressure or spike in a large pitched fight. Having only 70 armor they are also very vulnerable to suddenly asploding.

Now this was a horribly designed class to begin with, being a solo killer in a team game, but I think the main problem here lies in the attack chain mechanics. Once an assassin has begun his spike, he either has to see it through or become useless for 20-30 seconds while it recharges. He can't be like a manly warrior and swap targets when that disciplined stance goes up, or that guardian, or spirit bond. He has to play like a nub and try to finish his spike through the prot. (until MoI came along and said that it's ok to play badly). So why not, in order to encourage some small amount of skill, let assassins swap targets through their attack chain? It would mean a rebalance of a shitton of skills, which Anet won't commit to, but hey I can hope. Single character spikes are pretty bad for the game IMO, and hopefully giving assassins pressure by being able to spread their attacks around (while limiting their spike damage a bit) will encourage better play instead of mindless 1234. --118.90.84.84 13:38, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I should have read the section at the top of this page a bit better. For the tl;dr crowd, basically I am saying that I think assassins should retain their mobility, lose some spike damage, and gain some pressure.--118.90.84.84 13:41, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Assassins can be easily geared for pressure at the cost of losing spiking power. The most powerful spike I can get is 110dps/4sec with DW and quarterlocking. On the side of pressure, I can get a constant 80dps with stance removals, constantly reapplied DW, and DB on recharge for as long as I want, with plenty of bar compression for utilities. They may have to choose between spiking and pressure, but they can have pressure if they want. <>Sparky, the Tainted 17:53, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The Real Problem,a 108 hard countering knockdown--RedTeaCat 06:58, 8 June 2009 (UTC)