User talk:Raine Valen/Mass Balance/Ranger/Skills/Marksmanship

71.174.22.127's Proposal:
Ranged Deep Wound is bad for the game, whether it's conditional or not. Dark Morphon  (contribs)  08:34, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * clearly it's balanced because of the aftercast on 1/2 second bow attacks, your opponent has enough time to cast a one-second condition removal! Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 09:42, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If ranged deep wound is bad for the game, let's 25/90 the following skills or increase them to 25 strikes of adrenaline, whichever is applicable. A lot of these are way less conditional than the improved Punishing Shot.

72.64.5.61 14:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Augury of Death
 * Cruel Spear (Even if it's elite, ranged deep wound is bad)
 * Chest Thumper
 * Merciless Spear
 * Slayer's Spear
 * Vicious Attack
 * Augury of Death ads DW to caster spikes (read: Assassacaster, Deadly Arts Paragon). That's clearly balanced!  Anything in spear mastery can be regarded as imba.  I've even used Merciless on my ele (at 2 spec) to apply free deep wounds on top of my waterspikes.  Shadow Fang is arguably not ranged, since it makes you shadow step to whatever foe.  Phantom Pain is just silly.  Remember SB/RI spike?  Yeah, there's a good reason why mesmers (Mesmers, of all classes!) shouldn't have deep wound skills.  Pick any lame caster spike and it'll become plain why ranged deep wound is bad.
 * I think Punishing Shot needs to be kept where it is, and Savage Shot and Distracting Shot need to be nerfed. Someone suggested something like, " Distracting Shot.  Interrupts a skill if it hits.  Interrupt effect: Interrupted skill is disabled for  seconds and Distracting Shot recharges twice as fast.  Deals no damage."  If the two shining ranger interrupts were brought down to something more reasonable, then skills like Punishing Shot could be good without being lolrape.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  15:40, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Tbh, all those skills you list are overpowered. Your turn, Anon. Dark Morphon 09:37, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Chest Thumper is overpowered? I lol'd. Vili &gt;8&lt; [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 00:39, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Want some cheap spike assist with your Paragon/Elementalist? Run 12 spear mastery and 0 air magic and laugh at the cheap ranged deep wound.
 * Somehow I missed that one. I guess I didn't really consider it, because like 4 viable things in the game inflict cracked armor (Weaken Armor, Shell Shock, and... well, I'm sure there are more. =/).  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  01:38, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * What a waste of two skill slots and a secondary when you could use Merciless etc. instead. Vili &gt;8&lt; [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 03:52, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Removed.  Raine  - talk  19:08, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

72.64.2.163's Proposal
This version is just as bad. If you have a 1 second recharge interrupt skill, why would you take any other interrupt skill anyway? Also, a 1/2 cast time 1 recharge +25 damage is overpowered regardless of what else it does. Dark Morphon 09:39, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Because Punishing shot with 1 second recharge cannot disable spells every 5 seconds or disable skills for 20 seconds without attribute investment.72.71.231.246 00:45, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Dude, who cares if you interrupt every skill anyway. The additional damage is also ridiculous. Xhata 09:34, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, either kill the extra damage or increase the recharge; it's pretty imba atm. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  19:08, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Wuhy's proposal
Is worse than dshot.
 * dshot is OP tbh. Nonelite skill with 0 drawback, 0 energy cost, and a disable longer than PD?  lolok.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  19:12, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
 * PD has 2 recharge. Not comparable. Dark Morphon 14:20, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Wuhy's Proposal
I like this.  Raine  - talk  19:08, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't as I have a general dislike of changing fine skills (like you're going to read this, lol). Dark Morphon 10:18, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * There's a difference between "fine" and "perfect". I hate the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality - where's progress?
 * For good rangers, this change would do almost nothing. It would only punish spammy mc spamsmappers.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  20:53, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * 3 second more recharge won't punish good Rangers? Huh? Savage Shot is used for the interrupt and fast activation, not the effect. Dark Morphon 14:05, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, I somehow didn't notice the recharge. I thought it was done like dshot, where it has normal recharge if successful.  Still, a hard int with a 5s recharge is pretty (by which, I mean "lol") strong, especially for a non elite.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  03:38, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Power Return, though not completely comparable because it instantly gets to your target and can only be used to interrupt. Still, you get the idea. 5 recharge on an interrupt is fine as long as the skill doesn't do anything special besides it. In the case of Savage Shot, it's pretty much a normal attack as it has a seriously long aftercast. Dark Morphon 09:18, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Power Return (1) isn't a hard int and (2) gives the target energy if you land it. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  22:45, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Only the first thing is relevant. The returned energy is far less than the energy loss caused by interrupting a Spell with a high energy cost and it's not relevant at all if you interrupt an important skill such as an Attunement with it. At worst, your target doesn't lose any energy. The fact that it isn't a hard int is, in my opinion, justified by the instant arrival and the lower aftercast. Savage Shot being a hard interrupt doesn't have any specific use anyway, interrupting Resurrection Signet will only buy you some time. It is at most useful for stopping some of the Ranger's own skills, such as Apply Poison and Troll Unguent, something a Mesmer shouldn't be focussing at anyway. Dark Morphon 11:07, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Uh.
 * Also, ranger ints have an aftercast because they do (in some cases, big) damage; what's a mesmer going to do in that .75 seconds? Overload you?
 * Furthermore, most (interruptable) monk skills are 5 energy; you're not going to catch Infuse or Spirit Bond. Power Return returns all of that, if not more.  No one runs 16 fast casting.  If an ele loses 5 energy on a cast, it's not a huge deal.
 * Regardless, savage shot and dshot are probably the two best int skills in the game, period. PD and Magebane are the only things that come even remotely close, and both of those are elite.  Hell, one *disables your skillbar*.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  19:14, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Claim Resource is HA. I don't do HA, lamest form of PvP everrr.
 * The downside, which indeed was initially added to stop builds utilising multiple interrupts to have an insane lolpewpew combo (Power Shot <--- sounds familiar?), is a considerable downside for Rangers. If they use an interrupt, they won't be spreading Poison for about a second. Auto-attack -> Savage is still slightly faster than auto-attacking twice, though. The aftercast for Mesmers, which is also shorter, doesn't really matter because there is nothing they would otherwise want to do in it. Your point that Mesmers wouldn't do anything in the aftercast anyway is actually beneficial for my part of the discussion, thanks for that. I mean, Rangers will always want to attack. Mesmers won't always want to cast.
 * Concerning energy, it comes down to this: there is no skill on the Monk's skill bar that you really want to use Savage Shot on, apart maybe from Guardian to increase pressure because Word of Healing is not only pretty hard to hit, it's a skill you want to take out and therefore Distracting Shot should be used for it. The 5 energy denial you cause with Savage Shot as opposed to the zero you cause with Power Return is nice, but because the caster interrupt is easier to land and because the aftercast on Ranger interrupts is much more notable, I'd say it's about fair. Interrupting skills on midline classes is generally more useful because of the large recharge time on these skills. Things like Mirror of Ice, Water Attunement, Diversion et cetera. Again, you reinforce my side of the discussion by noting that Elementalists don't really mind losing 5 energy. If that's the case, then it doesn't really matter if they lose 5 energy from getting Mirror of Ice interrupted or not.
 * I've provided you with a skill that has roughly the same power when it comes to interrupting compared to Savage Shot. As I said before, the skills aren't completely comparable. Another thing that is important is that Mesmers have many other useful interrupts, whereas Rangers have only two useful non-elite interrupts in their arsenal. The other two, Disrupting Shot (piss-weak version of Savage Shot) and Concussion Shot (powerful Condition, but requires an elite to manage energy), are barely usable. Ranger interrupts have uses that are extremely different from most Mesmer interrupts. This makes them hard to compare. Power Return is a skill that is rarely used, mainly because it strays from what Mesmers want to do, but also because the other Mesmer interrupts are simply more powerful. If they weren't you'd be seeing this skill a lot more. After all, it's only a slightly weaker version of Savage Shot. Because of all this, I'd say Savage Shot is definitely not more powerful than the common Mesmer interrupt and should therefore not be nerfed. Unless you want to hit all interrupts, of course. Dark Morphon 17:24, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I saw "savage shot is not more powerful than the common mesmer interrupt" and I immediately skipped the rest of your WoT. Pretty much sums it up whether what you say is credible or not. Pika Fan 17:30, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Ur meen, Pika Fan. Dark Morphon 17:35, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * You don't have to save dshot for woh.
 * It's really easy to interrupt woh. Semi-decent rangers interrupt 3/4 casts with ease.
 * If dshot is on recharge, and you need to interrupt, savage does your job.
 * Savage fuels spikes without any conditional, just slap it at the end of your 123 chain so you don't feel the effects of the aftercast.
 * Mesmer interrupts are one-dimensional, they can't be used outside of their sole purpose - to interrupt. Hence your Power Return comparison was bad. That is also mainly why Savage Shot is powerful. You won't waste Savage even if you miss WoH, because you still apply damage and poison(if you are an AP ranger) but you will if you miss a mesmer interrupt, because you didn't do anything at all. Hint: Low risk but high reward should ring a few alarm bells. Pika Fan 17:47, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Ugh, I was just having some fun until I bumped into your wall of logic D:. Anyway, you're right, my comparison with Power Return was a bad one. Shouldn't have started that. An important thing I do stick to, however, is the fact that Mesmer interrupts generally have a strong, unique effect while Savage Shot is useful because it interrupts, has a fast activation and recharges soon. Interrupting and hitting as many foes as you can with attacks to spread Poison is, as you stated, a goal in itself for Rangers. It isn't for Mesmers and therefore they do not benefit much from a fast recharging interrupt. The effects on Mesmer interrupts are generally supportive in the role they play, the most important ones providing energy and denying it on opponents. Still, Rangers are per definition better at interrupting than Mesmers are. Is that unfair? I dunno, Mesmers have many abilities to make up for it. Diversion for example is very powerful. You could cry for a nerf but really, it doesn't cause any particular bad play. I look the same way at Ranger interrupts. They define the way Rangers are played, which certainly isn't a mindless one. Playing a Ranger well requires a lot of skill. Still, it can be argued that using Savage Shot in a wrong way doesn't punish the player enough. If anything should have to happen, I'd suggest to increase the aftercast on Ranger interrupts to such a level where auto-attack -> Savage Shot is slightly inferior to simply auto-attacking twice when it comes to Poison spread. That way, Savage Shot won't be used to spread Poison anymore and missing an interrupt would result in less pressure. I personally have a tendency to leave these skills as they are as they provide healthy gameplay. Dark Morphon 17:15, 5 January 2010 (UTC)