Talk:Shadow Form/Archive 4

tl;dr
everyone is bad and doesn't understand the game. ···  Danny  Pew   Pew 
 * But to play it you try to have as good a grasp as possible | 72 User_Seventy_two_Truly_Random.jpg (UTC) 20:09, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
 * No, to play it you mash buttons and pretend to know what you're doing, then call others disparaging terms when they even so much as suggest that you aren't a world-class player. –Jette 19:45, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * ^QFT NuVII  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] 19:46, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Logical fallacy alert: what's "understanding the game" except when you play something that consistently wins? Is it maybe when you consistently lose? (Hint: the problem is when it's possible to consistently win without understanding the main part of the game, much like the guy who "understands" Fallout 3 because he can type "~ god")... | 72 User_Seventy_two_Truly_Random.jpg (UTC) 21:16, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "I can turn on my computer. Ergo, I am qualified to be a system administrator." ← this is what I see in your comment.  –Jette 21:47, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "I have to use my computer. I seem to be able to use my computer adequately. Therefore, I am making use of my computer." That's what is in my (first) comment. | 72 User_Seventy_two_Truly_Random.jpg (UTC) 21:49, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Some weeks ago I went to RA, deliberately to argue, and soon enough ran into a fellow who claimed that using broken skills makes you bad, based upon the reasoning that using OP skills makes you a shitter, and being a shitter means you're bad. Flawless reasoning, aye? -- -Chaos- (moo) -- 22:02, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * If Shadow Form is nerfed again myself and plenty of other player are just going to stop playing ncsoft games, it is pure rediculous that we play our own fun ways over and over and a-net continues to nerf this same skill. WTF is wrong with you ppl, it will screw out the balance and most will not want to play anymore, unless that is what is intended????????????
 * The next gimmick will replace it in a week, and what balance? -- -Chaos- (moo) -- 21:13, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Personally I do not have an issue with SF. Only complaint i have is the use of it in the elite missions. eg(UW,FOW,DOA,etc...) Anet just needs to add skills to the foes that strips it. Touch skill aoe skill something. Elite missions are meant to be hard and time consuming although i don't relish the thought of an area taking a couple of hours to complete. Sf is no different than Ursan was. 1,2,3 and your good to go. At least Ursan required a team of 8 and any class could use it. JCR
 * So I take it you don't like doing UW, FoW, DoA? Honestly, without SF, you cant really do any of those at all. So if it's not maintainable, say bye to ever finishing the UW, FoW, and DoA, and say hello to the Dhuum Scythe etc. being whatever you feel like selling it for and no one can really say anything about your price much like the henchman tonic --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 97.121.8.211 (talk).
 * No sane person would ever compare SF to Ursan. Doing so only makes you seem ignorant. SF needs a bit of balance work, but Ursan let you literally walk through any area you wanted with little to no preparation, planning, or knowledge in general. ···  Danny  Pew   Pew  15:29, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

i agree Urasn was TO MUCH POWERFULL take 6 ursans 2 healrs and BAM U CAN clear entire gw like a joke Ursan skill just did to much damage and u can maintain it forever im glad the changed it, i love farmign as a perma but i agree that SF should be changed and so should the 600/smites. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 95.180.9.137 (talk).

Nerf this skill now please --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 99.199.175.77 (talk).
 * This section headed "tl;dr" is now actually tl;dr. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 03:31, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I personally use SF, it takes no skill. Its a great way to make money, but I have to agree that it needs to get nerfed. Its not fun anymore when you see a person with 3 sets of obsidian armor. Before SF, Ursan or 600 you'd probably be amazed at how much effort they put into it. Now, its not amazing at all. If you don't have a Monk, or a Assassin now, you pretty much can't farm elite areas now because all the people who originally farmed it in groups of 8 have made a monk or assassin. I think that if we could balance the SF a bit better then people would actually use their old characters for farming in groups of 8. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 174.5.77.174 (talk).

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? --189.173.49.143 17:56, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

If Shadow form is nerfed they will most definatly have to buff something else or make high end areas easier somehow so that people can still get groups together to beat them. Remember back in the ursan days guys, now those were the days were any class could join a team load up ursan and smash some skulls, those were the days, was so easy to get a team together :-), *Sigh* and by the way dudes this game is like 5 years old, nerf or no nerf if you like the game keep playing it if you were only playing it for the part of the game that was nerfed quit and use the oppurtunity to play another game you like, spend some time with the family, take up a new hobby or just sit at home and complain to every tom D*ck and Harry about Anet! --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.30.152.108 (talk).

Bottom line is teams made up almost entirely of one class is not balanced. Elite missions are no longer elite and have become high end farms that most can do solo. Certain areas should always be a challenge not a challenge of who can complete it the quickest. JCR --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.23.47.66 (talk).

Less Gimmick, more Balance. Less Speed clear, More Vanquish. 69.131.223.114 11:32, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

I stopped using perma after they nerfed it last year, stop whining about the nerf and learn to actually play. There are ways to farm besides sf. for instance i can farm ectos on derv, war, and even my sin (no sf is used) in uw. only thing im gonna be kinda upset about is that sins lose 1 of their 2 acceptable elites for pve (moebius being the second, 3 if you count ap)

Stupid People
Honestly, shut the hell up with SF needs to be nerfed, most of you probably haven't even used a perma build or have been to the UW with it. you completely leave out the skeles in the UW, I wont even mentions FoW, FoW is a joke, way too easy, but Fow still has attacks that go through SF. Almost every creature in the game has something that goes through SF! You also don't bring up that even with permas, hardly any groups at all manage to finish the UW, idk about FoW because its too easy and boring. Most of you also probably hate the prices for everything like the Dhuum Scythe, Obby Edge, DoA gemstones. If SF were not maintainable, those prices would skyrocket, the GW economy would be hardly manageable. You guys that are pro SF nerf cant even come up with a good argument. It's always something personally selfish, or its not fun, or people get rich too quickly with it(then you should do it too and not complain). Think of the bigger consequences of SF nerf, I mean sure you can 600 all that stuff but after SF, then it will be 600s, then the next thing that can tank. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 97.121.8.211 (talk).


 * I dont think you have made a good argument as to why SF shoudn't be nerfed. All I hear from what you are saying is I want to farm these items to sell. What most people are trying to acheieve is a fair balanced game. If people have those High End items you mention and prices sky rocket, they wont be able to sell them as no one can buy them. What happens then, They will have to become cheaper to facilitate selling them.

Suggestion: Remove Shadow Forms Damage output. They can stand and take agro all they want but other people will have to do the damage. SharazCataclysm 10:54, 11 February 2010 (UTC)


 * First, those who say SF needs another nerf is wrong. The 33% less dmg was fine and Killed dead most solo builds for permas, and forced them to use teams. FOWsc is great because it only takes 3 permas, so the whole team isn't sin and 1 necro... Old UWSC I agree needed nerf because it was all sin, and relatively easy with no fails. If your not coordinated in FOWsc (or any sc), know exactly what to do when, or the alternatives if given situations occur, your going to fail. Yes it's easy to maintain perma with cons or glyph whatever, it does take some talent and good thinking to get through the areas, and coordination with others. Most of the time a terra dies and team needs bu, 30-45 mins now, if others fail its over, 100b before mop, griff agro, traps, anything can happen. FOLKS, this is what guild wars is all the hell about!!! Team work. Do you know how tedious e/mo is in dayway? You have to be on that shit. Something else can be done. BUT BY FREAKING GOD, I am not going to sit there for 2+ hours trying to fow/uw and have pugs fail on me. Forget that. 30-50mins was great you are not at your pc all night trying to make 8k. Ya thats right, fowsc for the main team will only yield about 6-15k a night, 2-3 speed clears. Unless you get a vs (q13me) or obb blade (not yet ><) it really only adds up over time. Isn't that the POINT. If Anet has a problem with the speed in which people can accomplish it, they should do as UW, and nerf FOW in itself, make it longer, add final boss? Make SF move slower? I'm sure they have already thought all of these things. Just because you don't want to make a perma or another character than can speed clear (r/rt, w/a, etc) doesn't mean you should make the rest of us poor. Even if sf is complete nerf, there will be new way to speed clear it. I think 2 Teams of barrage+pet rits with e/mo tanks could do it 40-60mins with 2 bu's. Stoneflesh Aura+striker, earth armor, heals ftw. Yes, EXP eoe/100b, 242 onyx and 319 shards 400+bank atm. Think anet, look at dayway after uw nerf, ectos skyrocketed, "rich sc'rs" became richer. Don't make my 669k in shards shoot to 1.2 mill. So you really got to ask, what's my motive here? A happy farming and ending to all of this of course. Leet.

shut up
saying SF is imbalanced a few dozen times doesn't magically make it balanced. we know it needs fixing and if you want to share your bad ideas, there's a feedback space for that. ···  Danny  Pew   Pew  04:50, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Just leave SF alone, it creates a more elite grasp to GW for players than can do it. Too many people will STOP PLAYING if it's nerfed again !! I think A-net knows this but we will see._ Ramza 1301 February 6, 2010
 * At this point the people desperate for it to stay are the only ones worried about that. Arenanet already know any change to it is likely to cause shock wave.  For the rest of it, can we just stop talking about it, if people leave who really gives a hoot, apparently Guild Wars is a dying game anyway.... 000.00.00.00  18:20, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Personaly, I dont think Guild Wars is dying - it might need some REAL polish for once, but its not dead. And on the topic of SF, people can share their opinions, but try to keep it constructive ; screaming dosnt help much. Stroggs 18:24, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * If they nerf SF they might as well nerf 600/smite. Agree? 71.175.240.40 04:59, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed.. Make Maintained enchants end when energy Hits 0? That should shut down the use of Holy Wrath. It could open the way for a 3 or 4 man farm (Famine etc) but isn't more team based gamplay what we are trying to achieve SharazCataclysm 10:58, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 0/10. Perma is 3 skills (sometimes 2 and a backup) that equal almost complete invulerability. 600/smite is 2 full skill-bars that are still susceptable to enchant removal conditions and degen. Also see original post. Shut up. --71.94.9.34 11:08, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Point taken on the off topic post. Just expressing my Opinion on 600 that someone made :-) If your being that precise, 600 is also 3 Skills that also Equal almost complete Invulnerability. Shadowform just has the utility to allow damage output from the tanks own skills rather than a Utility Charachter. I can has a +5 now? SharazCataclysm 14:33, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * -2 becuz you frogot that its 7 skils 127.0.0.1 14:54, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Protective Spirit, Spirit Bond, Spell Breaker? 194.70.45.244 15:24, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Lol Emanagement? 130.89.172.140
 * Lol how dim am i? *Shuts up* SharazCataclysm 16:25, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * SF and/or 600 aren't even problems because they're invincibility, they're problems because they let you do everything faster than a real group. Nobody would care about shadow form if it took 2 hours to clear the labyrinth.  Having runners do everything for you is faster than actually playing the game.  :/  –Jette 17:39, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Jette, All members of a team in FOW/UW are required to play, think, be fast, and coordinate well with others. Thanks fail!
 * HAHAHA, oh WOW. 8/10, I raged.  –Jette 21:25, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. 8/10. Would have given 9 if they had signed. =/ -- Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] Flame Me  21:31, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Balanced?
Was a suggestion; created suggestion page, moved this bit to User talk:F.c.sauer. | 72  (UTC) 17:45, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

sooo if shadowform got nerfed...then items in the game would have value again? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.98.252.70 (talk).
 * The only things whose value is affected by a universal rise in the number of items are set-price items, like merchant or armour crafters. Whereas if there are more of some materials in the game such that you can hardly sell it for anything, the rise also devalues the things you would buy -- so, have 100g and everything costs 100g is the same as have 10,000g and everything costs 10,000g. | 72 User_Seventy_two_Truly_Random.jpg (UTC) 20:16, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

well the value of a gold would be increased and would drive up the economy..wouldnt that be a good thing? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.98.252.70 (talk).
 * Why? Misery  20:36, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * When the currency has more value the economy its connected to is healthier and vice versa.

why not just make shadow form cause exaustion? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.98.252.70 (talk).
 * An excellent answer to the posed question. I applaud your logic good sir. Misery  21:40, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Nono, maybe he has something... Shadow Formers will be so tired, they won't have the energy to go all the way to the market? | 72 User_Seventy_two_Truly_Random.jpg (UTC) 22:51, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I personally think that Shadow Form SHOULD be nerfed, but only for the damage. I can suggest making it an actual Form without any (serious) damage. Ofc this wouldn't affect skills like Holy Wrath, which would totally make the assassin a good replacement for the 600hp tank, but not that good solo farmer. If they totally nerf SF, they should nerf many other spells, totally removing the solo farming from the game & most dungeon running & speed clear tactics. &mdash; Ciborg ''' 10:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC) *cough* --Kyoshi (Talk) 06:21, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Holy Wrath only triggers on Attack damage so wouldn't this be a waste of time if all attacks on the SF tank miss or does Holy Wrath trigger on the attack action irrespective of an attack actually landing? 194.70.45.244 15:36, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Holy Wrath returns 66% of damage taken, so if tank takes none HW returns 0 194.2.20.67 15:42, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't really care if shadow form gets nerfed. It's irrelevant in high level PvP and no one cares about balance in PvE. Solo farming is a relatively large part of the game, and many people probably will quit if they can't solo farm any more.  Besides it really is not as profitable anymore since they introduced drop scaling, and nerfed UW speed clears. Plus there are other areas where solo farming is much faster than permasins.-- Lania Elderfire 15:49, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * "no one cares about balance in PvE."
 * Let me rephrase that, No one will ever think that PvE can be balanced :-). -- Lania Elderfire 22:42, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Not perfectly, no. Thank you. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 02:52, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I think PvE can be balanced, I just don't think it will happen. –Jette 06:48, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * PvE = AI. AI = Protocol. Protocol = Predictable results. Predictable results = Perfect counters to ever single situation. Perfect counters to every single situation = Imbalance. PvE will never be balanced. You would do well to stop deluding yourself. -- Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] Flame Me  06:56, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * AI = Protocol yeah but random mobs + 2 or 3 random skills on monster's skill bar can help to counter the abusive builds. Yes I know I am dreaming we won't see such things in GW ^_^ 194.2.20.67 08:59, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * If a lot of people quit because of a justified SF nerf, how is this bad for anyone? It's not like anyone will lose money.  Maybe my ping will get better.  Magnus godslayer 01:48, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * My ping is still crap, maybe they sold merged the servers over to Aion instead lol -- Lania Elderfire 03:59, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Its bad for everyone because if enough people aren't putting money into the pockets of ANet they will go out of buisness and if they go out of buisness their servers go down and the game becomes, quite literally, unplayable. Take a buisness class or even a math class or two before you post idiocy and selfishness. -- Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] Flame Me  04:11, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * They already have your money Briar, unless you plan to buy a lot of extras. Threats to leave are not a valid argument against game changes. Anyone have any comments on the content of the SF article? ... I thought not... take it to a fansite forum or user talk page somewhere. Thanks! -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  04:17, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * IAWTC. I mean, seriously.  But anyway, I might actually see myself using the new SF for reasons other than solo farming.  Still not great for pvp, though. Magnus godslayer 04:55, 26 February 2010 (UTC)