User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Overpowered Skills/Ritualist/Archive 1

Nothing personal just doesn't seem fair that some people have to wait 30 seconds for their enchantment removal to recharge while this one constantly goes in places like RA removing attunement from eles, conjure from warrior, and all protection monks offer. Even without taking the skills that shorten recharge, increase health, and heal spirits such as these they are still dangerous. I'm just suggesting you make the spirit lose X amount of health per enchantment removed, and lower the energy cost if needed.
 * This is a wooping 25 energy, with a 5 second cast time and can not be kept up all the time. Interrupt, or if you fail, wait till it dies. Not to speak of the issue of getting the spirit to target the right person. Not overpowered in my opinion. --Xeeron 11:25, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Or you can kill it in, like, 3 hits as a warrior. Pluto 22:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree with Pluto. --Shadetz X 01:18, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

,
8 x Wielder's Strike does an instantaneous 8 x 114 = 912 dmg to a 60AL target. If their spike timing is bad or you manage to disrupt a couple of the casts so the target survives, you get hit with 8 x Spirit Burn = 800 dmg 1.75 secs later. And each spike costs only 5-10 energy and can be repeated every 12 seconds. In principle I think that any class with enough self-defence to allow you to run 8 of them should have their single attack/spell damage capped at say 500/8 = ~63 dmg. And no this isn't just an HA issue, it's affecting GvG too because rit teams always have Burning as their home map, so splitting is not straightforward. And even if you can split them they can turtle until VoD, at which point they can clean spike for almost 1100 dmg. (BTW, I'm not nearly as bothered about Spirit Rift - just don't stand under the disco ball and it's np) Errr 11:04, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * If you put the damages back to 63 it will become like smiting prayers...again. The problem is how they do not have to rely on their primary attribute for ANYTHING. They can spec fully two ways, Restro and Channeling. Eles and Monks for example, usually have to split into their primary or they lose a significant part of their profession. Spawning Power isn't worthwhile to invest in, so they can just totally ignore it. I don't see how it could be fixed though, unless you make Spawning Power a Divine Favor rip off, that adds damage to offensive spells. If you nerf channeling and restoration to hell, then ritualists go back to the bottom of the profession food chain. What has been suggested is making the conditional +damage non stackable. Instead of doing extra damage, making them burn. Or could change them to a hex, do part of their damage, then a second later doing the second part of their damage, that way they can only be hexed by it once. I don't know, just please don't nerf channeling and restoration into unusablity. --Deathwing 14:45, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * These two skills are the real problem with Ritualist spike - 100+ damage DDs for 5 energy on 1 second cast times. That they're on a profession that can pack a lot of decent defense just makes things worse.  Wielder's Strike has always been a problem - Spirit Burn used to be a perfectly good skill, and received a baffling buff to make it a gross spike skill as well.  These should both be doing 80ish damage at max spec on very fast recharges, so that Rits could deal respectable damage outside of spiking things down. -Ensign 19:50, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Fully agreed with Ensign, that's what I've been suggesting for a while for Channeling Rts. Basically, a class that has very powerful healing capabilities should be limited in 100+ damage spike skills (every1 saw what Signet of Mystic Wrath did when it was functional). Channeling should be much more geared toward pressure damage with cheap, fast recharge nukes in the 80-90 damage range that can be used to pressure and constantly zap people, drawing stuff like Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond to drain energy from monks, but that would fail as a gimmick spike build. If you want a big spike assist, you already have Channeled Strike, which has a fair energy/cast time/limitation to make up for it. And Gaze from Beyond too Patccmoi 15:06, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * i think reducing dmg of wielders strike and spirit burn to around 80 is too drastic a solution. i dont think the problem with rit spike is that it can kill. There are dozens of other builds you can make that can kill but arent as powerful at the rit spike. What sets the rit spike apart from other builds is what needs to be toned down. That is:

1) there are other spikes that can kill, but do they do up to and over 800 dmg each spike? 2) there are other spikes that can kill, but can they spike as often as rit spike? 3) there are other spikes that can kill, but do they have the healing power of a rit spike? 4) there are other spikes that can kill, but do they have access to nrg management like offering of spirit?

solutions to the above imbalances?

1) reduce raw damage so that a clean spike from rit spike may kill, not overkill, just kill. Thats around 600-700 dmg needed, perhaps 100-110 dmg max for each rit on a spike. 2) increase recharge times of wielders strike and spirit burn, perhaps 15 seconds for wielders strike and 12 for spirit burn. 3) reduce the effectivess of restoration healing skills if below 14 spec, encourage high specced resto rits but reduce effectiveness of hybrid rits which are extremely powerful when theres more than 1 of them. Do something about vital weapon. 4) With skills like wielders strike, vital weapon, spirit burn and wielders boon only costing 5 energy, offering of spirit granting 10-12 energy every 15 seconds with no drawback is a little overpowered. 87.194.81.41 17:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC)Lorekeeper
 * The big problem if you do that is that you're actually destroying the skills for anything BUT Rt spike, which is a very bad way to go. Basically, they'll still be usable by Rt spike and the build will remain somewhat viable (and why? Why do you want Rt spike to be viable, is it doing anything good for the game?), but that's it. You won't be able to put them on any other balanced bar because their recharge will be aweful.


 * Reducing the damage and RECHARGE of Spirit Burn/Wielder's is actually much less drastic for the skills. They become strong skills with a different purpose. More akin to stuff like Lightning Strike (little stronger but conditional) than stuff like Lightning Orb (they ALREADY have Channeled Strike and Gaze from Beyond for that. And those 2 are balanced to be pretty similar to stuff like LOrb. They don't need 4 main spike skills, it's nice to have skill that can DPS too). Basically, reducing their damage and recharge WOULD kill Rt spike. And that, imo, is a good thing because i don't know why any1 would want to save that build that's been plaguing HA since months and months and is even seen in GvG. But it wouldn't kill the skills, while your suggestion kills the skills for anything but Rt spike.


 * And also, you could leave all the other skills that are FINE alone. What makes people suggest that Offering of Spirit is broken is Rt spike, nothing else, because the skill is far from overpowered for general purpose. Restoration doesn't need to be nerfed at all, it's only too strong here because you can have it at high spec on many people in a spike build. Vital Weapon could use a small nerf though, something like 5/1/5 with 15..35 duration would be better. If you want to keep it on every1, you have to use it on recharge on everyone one after the other, and that's pretty easy to disrupt because it becomes very predictable. Patccmoi 18:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Wielder's strike is just plain stupid... 110+ damage for 5 energy, 1 second cast, quick recharge. This skill alone is why nobody does pinpoint ele spikes anymore (or blood spike). For its damage and spammability, it should cost 15 easily. On a side note...why don't any skills in GW cost...say, 13?  Why only 0, 5, 10, 15, 25? Shard 05:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Wielder's strike is conditional and requires a weapon spell, weapon spells cost energy 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Wielder's Strike is conditional? LOL. Wielder's strike might as well say "extra damage while at least half your team is alive."   It's about as conditional as black lotus/black spider strike. When was the last time you saw a SP/Expose assassin who doesn't use hexes? Shard

I think these can be removed from here now...wielders got owned in the nerf.Streetp 18:47, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Rit Spike
Everyone has known rit spike is extremely imbalanced for at least 6 months. It has been ignored for numerous patches. It is now prevalent in HA, TA, and GvG. It needs to be dealt with, you know why. -Warskull 07:09, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I second this. --Dragonious 07:55, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Shhhh...Just pretend the Rit-Spike doesn't exist! If this is fixed what will we have to moan about?!....well I suppose we could turn our head and look at B-Spike. Lol!...on a serious note, Very Broken! Please Fix. -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 11:29, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I dunno what you're talkin about, but it isn't "prevalent" in GvG. It does exist, but it is no more common than any other build. HA on the other hand, every other team is ritspike. 69.137.78.92 12:57, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Izzy has already stated that he will deal with rit spike. Backsword 13:02, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I love how it's been six months, when the update that caused rit spike wasn't that long ago :P, and yes I'll be changing it. ~Izzy @-&#39; 18:33, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, actually it was - February 1, 2007 to be precise. -Ensign 09:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Rit Spike is easy enough to deal with, put a ranger one of the vital spammers and a hammer warrior on the other. If you pressure them enough you put them in heal mode, but their healing is not to difficult to power through with balanced.--ARandoman 19:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This isn't an argument about whether it's beatable. It's an argument about whether it's overpowered.  an 1800+ damage spike with 8 hard target healers with 700+ health is stupid to say the least.  Everything is beatable, but not every single team can afford to put two dedicated vital campers in their lineup. Shard
 * When nerfing rt-spike you need to be carfull to avoid nerfing Rt's in balanced teams or the only viable rts will be splinter weapon and spirit spammers(well mabe thats an exageration but the amount of viable builds will be reduced) Tarlok 11:03, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Far too easily abused at VOD. Please fix by 1) longer recharge and/or 2) lowering damage. Please consider skills like AOE pressure skills like Balth Aura as a comparable and consider buffing/balancing against Healing Seed as a possible counter. --Black mischief 02:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, just because people can put this on the archers at VoD. --TimeToGetIntense 03:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree this is an issue, but I just need to fix VoD rather then the skills that abuse it, otherwise when I do fix VoD these skills will all be worthless. ~Izzy @-&#39; 19:43, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I personally think the skill should force a balled-up team (in a ward) to spread out, not be a tool for VOD. Assuming that line of thought, a significantly higher recharge time is still permissible (15 seconds?).  Also, consider how long it lasts, 60 seconds seems extreme.  A team shouldn't be able to put up 5 splinter weapons at once.  Make it last only 20 seconds?--66.65.162.219 20:59, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The length of time it sits dormant doesn't matter. Anyone with a 20/20 channeling can maintain this on two warriors, which is more devastating than having it sit on the warriors for 30 seconds without them attacking. - Auron  02:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * AoE skills like this shouldn't be nerfed because NPCs are retarded at VoD. Otherwise all AoE will end up useless again.  The horrible VoD pathing needs to be fixed first. -Warskull 02:20, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I fail to see how 'ALL AOE' becomes useless by nerfing 1 skill, Splinter Weapon. I also fail to see why changing the recharge time to 15-20 seconds and the length of availability to 30-40 seconds is unreasonable.  Putting down 2 splinter weapons is tolerable.  Putting down 5 splinter weapons at VOD is obscene.
 * If you nerf one AoE skill because of it's usefulness at VoD, why not nerf all powerful AoE? The way to fix splinter at VoD isn't to nerf Splinter, it's to make NPCs spread out better. --Edru viransu 04:42, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Is everyone here retarded or is it just me? You can't have 6-8 copies of Balth Aura down at 1 time, but you can with splinter weapon.  Because of the recharge being 5 seconds and the duration being up 60, you can throw them all over the place in preparation for VOD.  Plenty of games exist where people are standing around waiting for VOD.  It's pretty simple to Splinter weapon up an entire team and all your NPCs (Footman, Knights, Archers), then go into VOD.  I'm happy to debate this with everyone, but 'generically' calling it just another AOE skill, without addressing the recharge/duration is a little ridiculous.  I'd love for VOD to be completely different, but let's stick to the topic at hand. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.65.162.219 (talk &bull; contribs) 07:56, 18 July 2007 (UTC).
 * Or, Izzy could just fix VoD, as he's said he's going to do, instead of fixing things that only need fixed because of the current way VoD works. You might want to rephrase that first sentence, by the way. That being said, Splinter could still take a duration hit, imo. --Edru viransu 06:43, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree with lowering damage, but the duration/recharge ratio is somewhat ridiculous. So that you can use it regularly on 1 target, which i think is fine, recharge should stay pretty low, but duration could get a serious hit. I'd do something like 5/1/8, 15s duration. Then a target hitting normally has enough time to do his 5 hits even if kited or blocked a bit, but you can't actually pre-buff 10 people with it, only 2 could have it at a time with 1 copy of Splinter. Patccmoi 15:28, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Izzy has been saying he's going to fix vod since gwfc. Even if he does, the skill will still be a lot stronger than what seems to be the standard we compare aoe skills to in balth aura considering it ends up doing far more damage since it can be spread to multiple characters, costs less energy, and can't be removed. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:210.9.141.47.
 * Balth Aura is a pretty awful standard for AoE skills. Smite builds only use it because they have tons of energy or they use it to power Auspicious Incantation. But if you look at it side-by-side with Fire Magic skills, it's not very good. It synergizes better with what people want to do. --TimeToGetIntense 06:24, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if you noticed but a number of fixes and changes have been made, Vod is vastly different sense GWFC and while there is still a ton of work today, it's not like there hasn't' been progress or lessons learned. ~Izzy @-&#39; 18:45, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Time what would be your standard for AoE skills? Yeah Izzy some things have changed but the fact remains that you can still win the game by playing defensively for 20 minutes and glyph sac meteor showering the opponents npcs and there's pretty much nothing they can do about it other than employing a similar tactic. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.9.141.47 (talk &bull; contribs) 14:46, 25 July 2007 (UTC).
 * Searing Heat and Fireball are generally stronger than Balthazar's Aura imo. Fire Magic doesn't offer anything else, though. --TimeToGetIntense 22:26, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * So you'd balance splinter weapon in relation to searing heat or fireball?
 * NPC AI at VoD needs to be changed so that as they approach the flag stand they SPREAD OUT at any opportunity and especially when aggroed. If an enemy team tries to aggro the NPCs before they reach the stand, the aggro should work as usual but the NPCs should SPREAD OUT before they start attacking. Once the aggro is lost they then resume their path towards the flag stand. They should not stop moving and all bundle in the same spot. Is it really that hard to prevent? Its really quite silly that you spend all this time defending your base from gankers only at VoD 1 warrior stands at your gate and causes all your precious NPCs to stop inside your courtyard, all bunched up, and die from a single launch of the catapult. Its silly that a single melandrus dervish protted with SoA and SoD etc etc can stand at a predictable pathway used by the NPCs and cause them to collect in a ball at that point where he is standing. If these NPCs are meant to play a part in the outcome of a GvG then they should at least not be so easily exploitable. Its bad enough already that they can have such a influential impact on the match, but you can lose a whole army of NPCs in a matter of seconds, all because of bad pathfinding and AI under Aggro. These are problems with VoD that have been around for such a long time, so claiming that steps have been made is really quite an exaggeration. [iQ] made the glyph sac MS victory iconic of the poor NPC pathfinding at VoD how long ago?87.194.81.41 17:41, 30 July 2007 (UTC)Lorekeeper

I took the liberty of putting this on top to get more discussion. Rits aren't meant to be just rit spikers (well they shouldn't be) and this skill gives 180 health to each party member, 15 armor from the insignia (which should only be 10 armor; easy requirement imo), and helps the damage from Weilder's Strike which is ridiculous. All from a little weapon. Sure there's diversion and PD, but if you don't have them in your party, most likely you will lose to a rit spike. Vital Weapon is just a start to the long list of nerfs that need to come to the rit "spike" line. I would also like to see spirit rift do less damage because it's really imbalanced on killing something that is still and stripped at the same time when the 3 seconds trigger. Enough rambling from me. Discuss please --Dragonious 00:19, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill isn't problematic in GvG, which is actually a good format unlike HA. --TimeToGetIntense 01:12, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * So your rant about a skill is more important than any others on this page, eh? Well, anyway, Vital Weapon means you lose out on other, more crucial Weapon Spells, like WoWarding. And having this replaced by "another" spell (i.e. WoWarding) when your health is falling means you lose both max health and current health at the same time. Not overpowered simply because of the inherent limitations of Weapon Spells. --Heelz 02:12, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * So...I guess this is pve and gvg only wiki. I see... --Dragonious 09:31, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah...nobody cares about HA. Btw..."GLF r10++++ " --Deathwing 09:50, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Weapon of Warding is better overall imo--Vital Weapon, being in Communing, stops it from being too strong when combined with anything that gets better with weapon spells, eg. Wielder's Strike and Wielder's Boon. And you might have gotten more support if you hadn't tried cutting in the queue and fitting in three other nerfs under the same umbrella. :/ --Ufelder 10:21, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Does no one on this board actually play gvg or watch obs? eE has been polluting the ladder with their stupid rit spike for weeks, and others are starting to copy them.  eE are terribad but they've still reached r40 because the build is broken, particularly on anti-split maps.  Vital Weapon is certainly part of the problem (when you have 8 rits it's np to spec one or two into Communing instead of Restoration), but the main issue is the shear amount of damage they can pump out on a spike (see below).  Errr 10:55, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * When Vital Weapon is changed, the teams just use another weapon.. There are enough out there, so that's not a solution. poke | talk 12:05, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem with Rit Spike isn't Vital Weapon, it's the damage output for spell cost/cast time/cycle time on their spike spells.--Pork soldier 12:29, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem IS Vital Weapon in the Wielder's Strike spike build. Or to put it more accurately, the problem is the synergy between Wielders strike, wielders boon and vital weapon. Vital the only weapon spell that can be maintained permamently on all 8 party members. But not only does it make the rit spike able to spike every 12 seconds with wielders strike doing over 120 dmg at 15 channeling, it also makes all 8 ritualists incredibly hard to spike using a conventional adrenaline spike. Thats 175 extra health on a 600 health target. The only build with enough raw spike dmg that can punch through targets boosted this way... is guess what, another rit spike. A third problem with vital weapon on the 8 rits is that it gives them all an incredibly huge 135 heal from wielder's boon, which only costs 5 energy, is as fast as infuse health, and recharges in only 4 seconds. Is there any other skill in the game that allows party members to spike with 120dmg every 12 seconds, have 175 extra health 24/7, and be able to catch spikes as fast as infuse for only 5 energy? Solution? At 14 communing duration = 20, recharge = 5. Can be maintained on 4 allies all the time but not 8. Would need 2 rits with vital weapon to keep it on all 8, which requires 2 rits to use hex breaker to give immunity to diversion. If u can disrupt or kill 1 of these rits the whole build falls apart because only 4 rits out of 8 will benefit from vital weapon. Having to spec two 14 communing rits will also dilute the total dmg potential of the build, but if they really want to keep 8 vitals up they will HAVE to spec this way. For a rit spike to kill a 600 health target it only needs 5 rits with 15 channeling and wielders strike anyway so having to spec 2/8 rits with 14 communing does not make the build unable to kill. Something needs to be done to make it harder to keep this up on 8 ritualists. My solution might be too much of a nerf, but im no expert, ill let the experts decide on the exact figures needed.87.194.81.41 16:34, 30 July 2007 (UTC)Lorekeeper
 * They could even run splinter without wanding then. (granted, without the hp boost) –Ichigo724 14:09, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * As hardy as Rit spike teams are, they have no running capability, so they're basically just rank farmers. - elviondale (tahlk) 14:41, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Compare this to Vital Blessing, which used to be a viable skill. This has no maintain cost, is unremovable, and provides perfect synergy with wielder's strike, for the same cost as its monk counterpart.  This skill needs a recharge so a single person can't bond an entire team with it.  I personally would like to see a counter to weapons (and chants).  Dulled Weapon should be a weapon spell usable on opponents, not a hex.  Vital Weapon is so ridiculously overpowered in any build, not just ritspike. Shard 05:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty happy with Vital Weapon now, as this hasn't had much new discussion sense the update I'm moving it to the archive. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:58, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Great recharge, great attribute, insane cast time, conditional is easily met, and it'll even work spirit-free without dire consequences. It is the sole energy management skill for rits atm; partly because it is too good, and partly because other alternatives are terrible. - Auron 15:04, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * How is this skill a problem? --TimeToGetIntense 18:45, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Unlimited energy for rit spike. Is rit spike not a problem? - Auron 00:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, if you play HA I guess. There's always going to be problematic gimmick builds in HA though. --TimeToGetIntense 00:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Should probably be adjusted given the comparison to Offering of Blood - perhaps 20% life sac, and 10% life sac if near a spirit. [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 00:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't consider Rit Spike to be a serious problem, it's one of the weaker gimmicks run in HA. All of the imbalances in the build come from the nukes being too big for their casting time.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with Offering of Spirit, It's a mediocre elite at best. Compare to non-elite emanagement skills used across professions and it doesn't hold up. -Ensign 09:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I know this is off topic, but this skill looks really good compared to Peace and Harmony :) There is a lot of crappy elite emanagement skills. But I agree, no need to make this skill another crappy elite e-management skill. --Deathwing 07:22, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * My changes to Rit spike are all in the Skills themselves. ~Izzy @-&#39; 18:50, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Noes, don't nerf it, I enjoy running this with Bloodsong as a boonprot in RA :( Saph 22:00, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Comparing this to a necro Emanagement skill when everyone knows necro also has soul reaping on the side is a mute point, obviously this skill is tailored to this professions needs, and it's overall lack of energy management compared to almost every caster profession, as well as Ranger... A profession with massive energy costs, no energy benifits from attributes, and someone brings up the stability of an energy management elite...... nuf said. But I'll say signet of lost souls anyway, compare that to OoS.--BahamutKaiser 20:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)