Talk:Guide to playing as a paragon

Adding organization to these guides
After comparing all of the great ideas in the sections in these Profession guides, I've tried to bring together a single format for all of them to use. The information has not been changed, but in some cases it has been reorganized so that readers will know what to expect across all guides.

Because of this, many guides will have incomplete sections. I believe this is worth it to have the great sections cover all of the guides and have more complete organization.

I’m adding this explanation to all of the guides’ Talk pages so everyone can see it regardless of which guide they see first.--Declan 20:33, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Merge with guide to playing a paragon
No sense in having 2 articles on the same topic, I say. -- Hong 01:36, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Yep I agree, guide to playing a paragon is a tiny article anyway, should be merged/put into guide to playing as a paragon. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:81.157.200.218 (talk).

Imbagon, Focused PvE Paragon, Incredibly Overpowered
Why were those three parts taken out? All are very true. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer `
 * I'm sorry, but the Imbagon is by far the worst use for a para(opinionated)... I think we are giving the wrong message by constantly saying "imbagon, imbagon" when we could be explaining what truly makes the paragon good.Zeph 22:44, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're right, except that in PvE, it just outshines every other defensive Paragon build. It's a shame, really, but it's true. 145.94.74.23 13:50, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Paragon Seconday Ritualist
I thought that splinter weapon and brutal weapon would be a good damage buff for paragons, and also spirits can be affected by shouts, so more energy from Leadership, possibly? -- Weaponmaster 6:06, 12 May 2008 Also the skill volley is a bow attack is it not? therevore not able to be used with a spear...right? ^ --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Weaponmaster (talk).
 * Yeah, Volley only works with a bow. As for ritualist, most shouts and chants either only affect party members or have effects which are irrelevant for spirits. Only Anthem of Disruption, Anthem of Envy, Anthem of Guidance and Anthem of Weariness have relevant effects on spirits, and they only affect attacking spirits. In PvE, Vocal was Sogolon synergizes well with "Never Surrender!" "Stand Your Ground!", "There's Nothing to Fear!" and "They're on Fire!", but, as an item spell, it prevents you from attacking and greatly reduces your adrenaline gain. -- Gordon Ecker 02:46, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * There's also angelic protection and the healing signet for spirits that take dmg but I don't believe its that useful.74.36.49.130 02:22, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Egoist Paragon
Why isn't mentioned that you can actually play a very good offensive paragon which does not need this party thing? Noctarch 14:26, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I've never heard of it, and pvxwiki doesn't mention it. Does the build have some other name? -- Gordon Ecker 06:59, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Looking at PvX, it is true that offensive spear-oriented Paragons can score "Great" ratings. For a random example, the Cruel Spear Paragon. However, all Paragons need "this party thing." Party-wide shouts and chants can easily improve the party's DPS, while providing more energy to chuck spears. You can be a decent Paragon by using spear attacks well, but you will be a great one if you also turn other party members into well-protected killing machines. Crazy Odin 16:37, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It's the whole "group damage vs personal damage" thing. People just don't generally seem able to comprehend the idea of making everyone else better so the group as a whole does well. (I guess they want their epeen as long as their spear throws?) -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 17:10, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Well put--worth noting somewhere in the article. Then again, people are people. Crazy Odin 21:22, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Skills that are useful in the beginning
I'd like to add a note about playing a low-level Paragon (in Istan). You don't have much Leadership for energy management, so it's hard to get energy for spells from adrenaline shouts. This limits your choices for a secondary profession... Crazy Odin 02:53, 7 September 2008 (UTC)Crazy Odin
 * IIRC I focused on Spear Mastery with motivation for healing and party energy support until I capped some good elites, which worked fairly well. -- Gordon Ecker 07:09, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Plague Sending for Paragons
I noticed that the article no longer mentions using a Necromancer secondary profession to remove self-inflicted conditions. Why? Crazy Odin 21:22, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Because transferring conditions is bad. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 21:36, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * To clarify, the moment the other guys figure out what you're trying to do and do... anything... about it (and there's a *ton* of common counters), you've at best wasted your time and energy, and at worst you're stuck with whatever condition you wanted to transfer until you manage to shake it off. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 21:38, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * What about in PvE, where those kinds of skills are less common and less fatal? Crazy Odin 04:52, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You'd honestly be better off just running a SY spammer, or a cruel spear/stunning strike bar with TNTF. The former has so much defense it's literally not worth passing up, ever (I and many people I know have created paragons just for the sake of running an imbagon), and the latter gets your pick of the two deadliest conditions in the game along with a ton of damage output and party support. (There's only a few conditions worth running in PvE - daze, blind, weakness, maybe deep wound and cracked armor - and the imbagon gives the defense to make up for a lack of blind or weakness, while cruel spear/stunning strike give you the others.) -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 13:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I guess the really big point to remember (and I'm reminded of this by the antidote sig - remedy sig discussion over the edit summaries recently) is that what makes a build good is not what it brings to the table, but what it brings to the table compared to other similar builds. A "sendagon" (isn't it awesome how we name these things) locks out a warrior secondary for energy management, and also spends a good deal of time not attacking - which, when under the affects of agg refrain, is a good chunk of damage you've lost. You also need to blow skill slots on inflicting conditions to yourself, which could instead be used for party support, etc. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 13:35, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Paragons can spread weakness. Backsword 13:37, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Or paragons can spread SY + TNTF + ward honor. The choice is yours.
 * Also, you can still fit weakness into that bar.
 * -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 13:42, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Selfcontradicting much, Armond? Backsword 13:55, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Given as anthem weary is optional (which is to say, if you're using heroes you can switch it out for another attack skill or something)... not really, I'd say. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 14:04, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Staying Alive section
It says mitigate damage but aside from that nothing is mention for the lack of blocking skills the Paragon has which is another good reason to stay in midline and avoid the frontline at all cost(PvP players target these professions first). I'm trying to come up with a nice paragraph for that. If anyone beats me to it, kudos!--ShadowFog 13:06, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Area deleted by JonTheMon Reason "While they don't have an abundance of self-blocking, added defense is a plus against both attackers and casters. It's not as much of a liability as you're saying". Is a liability, that section was to provide insight on how to stop incoming combos from different professions. I need some "yay" to put the section up again before JonTheMon edits the article again.--ShadowFog 13:48, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Paragons are there to support the team, not necessarily themselves. So, if a Paragon was to have blocking skills, they would likely be team-wide (see Defensive Anthem), but that would be really overpowered: multiple, unstrippable aegis'. So, they only have 1, and it's elite. And they have 1 for themselves, but that's not imba. But really, a Paragon is a non-squishy support character.  So, they'd be like Ele's or Mesmers or Nec's but with more armor, better attack capability, and more emphasis on the party.  And do those professions suffer greatly b/c they don't have blocking? --JonTheMon 15:29, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Guardian 75.182.89.73 15:43, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Mesmer can get away with blocking by making them miss or punish them for attacking same goes for the Necromancer, they have skills for these.
 * Elementalist can blind, weaken, snare and set up wards against attacks. And for all other professions provide some kind of skill to block or make miss against incoming physical damage so no, those professions dont suffer greatly b/c they don't have blocking because they already have skills against physical damage unlike Paragon which only mitigates, it's overpowered if they had a blocking skill? Yes but still, the ...incoming combos from different professions. statement I made is reference to Assassins combos(includes interruptions, knock-down and conditions), Warriors adrenaline skills(ditto), Rangers conditions and long rage attacks/interruptions and Dervish spikes(famous for instant Deep Wound) which the Paragon is open to all of these and like 75.182.89.73 said and I stated in the article I made and Gordon Ecker edited, is to have another profession cast a blocking skill on the Paragon.--ShadowFog 19:51, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Paragons have over 100 armor. If you see what your opponent is attacking with, you have roughly 116 armor. Explain to me why you would waste skill slots trying to block attacks you can just shrug off? - Auron 22:43, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe because of the nature of bonus damage being armor-ignoring. Ɲ oɕʈɋɽɕɧ  22:56, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You're kidding, right? - Auron 23:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * No. It's just plainly untrue that armor does much against attack skills, especially of the assassin with their low base damage. Ɲ oɕʈɋɽɕɧ  23:13, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * So burning shield is the solution? Instead of, say, Guardian from a monk? Or possibly just a heal, since your ridiculous amounts of armor reduces all damage (including, yes, that from physical attacks) down to very manageable amounts? Paragons have better things to spend slots on than countering people that never attack them in the first place. - Auron 23:21, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * (EC) Let's do some math here. Assuming your attack chain has five attacks, two of which are dual attacks, and they do on average +40 bonus damage. 7 * 40 = 280 + 100 for deep wound, which is.... a lot less than 600. That would only kill people with two superior runes. The weapon base damage makes up the rest on low armor targets (critical hits don't boost bonus damage, either), but against high AL targets like warriors and paragons, you still leave them with a lot of health, and plenty of time for a monk to heal.  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 23:23, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I did not say Burning Shield was a good choice. Blocking in general is a good concept when the percentage of physical damage that cannot be reduced by armor is high or when the side-effects are dangerous. The way this is achieved is an object of further discussion. Ah, and wizardboy, in said example even AL60 would not die. Ɲ oɕʈɋɽɕɧ  23:30, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Paragons have no blocking options. However, paragons do not need them. This is a guide to playing as a paragon, not a guide to wasting skill slots blocking attacks from people who are not attacking you in the first place since you have 116 armor and aren't going to die without an incredibly well-coordinated full-team spike. Paragons can shrug off attacks, spells, and pretty much everything - including stuff like rangerspike, most of the time.
 * Unlike Shadowfog apparently believes, Paragons are not prime targets, nor are they really considered "midline." They're "physicals" for all discussion about damage dealing and armor class, and positioning doesn't matter in the least when you have over 100 armor, so it's not like you have to hide behind your warriors - in most cases, you have more armor than your warriors do! Shadowfog added a bunch of crap to the article (mostly concerning burning shield, for whatever reason) on a topic that frankly doesn't matter. Paragons don't block - and when they do, the block doesn't apply to them anyway.
 * Open up obs. Tell me how many paragons you see running block stances or burning shield to try to defend themselves against bonus damage. When you've counted none, we can get back to the topic - how none of this belongs in the article in the first place :/ - Auron 23:40, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Auron, to talk shit is easy, you should know and your behavior for trolling is well known too. My original article didnt even mention to use Burning Shield instead it said to bring another profession to provide the blocking, Unlike Shadowfog apparently believes, Paragons are not prime targets, nor are they really considered "midline." there were no thoughts included in the article, Auron, stop making shit up again, the article is directed not towards HA or only GvG, is in general gameplay take you head of that line of thought and play some other arenas. They have high armor indeed and like Ive said about 3 fucking times, Yes but still, the ...incoming combos from different professions. statement I made is reference to Assassins combos(includes interruptions, knock-down and conditions), Warriors adrenaline skills(ditto), Rangers conditions and long rage attacks/interruptions and Dervish spikes(famous for instant Deep Wound) which the Paragon is open to all of these and like 75.182.89.73 said and I stated in the article I made and Gordon Ecker edited, is to have another profession cast a blocking skill on the Paragon.--ShadowFog 00:24, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * "there were no thoughts included in the article, Auron, stop making shit up again" --> "stay in midline and avoid the frontline at all cost(PvP players target these professions first)." Uh okay. I have to thank you for defeating your own post. Great job :)
 * To spell it out - people target midline characters like mesmers because mesmers do things like diversion monks. Teams target eles because eles blind and snare warriors. A diversion on WoH or an unmitigated warrior are both things that will make you lose. Paragons, however, neither shut down key healing skills nor do they pack the pressure (via bull's strike and KDs) that warriors put on monks. That, combined with the fact that they're beasts to take down, make paragons very unpopular targets.
 * In PvE, paragons have 106 armor plus 35% damage reduction. I'm not sure how you think that's low. - Auron 06:38, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

"Unlike Shadowfog apparently believes, Paragons are not prime targets, nor are they really considered "midline."" - Auron. He was responding to "...which is another good reason to stay in midline and avoid the frontline at all cost(PvP players target these professions first)". And "to have another profession cast a blocking skill on the Paragon" does not belong on the Guide to Playing a Paragon, because that's not something a Paragon is doing. That's like going around to every "Guide to playing an X" and adding "When you're under attack, have someone put prot on you." That's a monk/ritualist thing, not a paragon thing.  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 00:37, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Im glad to see some people venting like Auron(chuckles). Yeah your right. Still, is something to inform that overconfidence is the demise of the Paragon due to the after effects of some physical skills like conditions and knock-downs which is something the What to Avoid section neglects saying. A [insert a melee profession here] may not do much damage due to your high armor but it's after effects of successful hits can hinder you.--ShadowFog 01:02, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * For the record, I only edited that paragraph to correct a factual error conflating physical damage with attacks. -- Gordon Ecker 02:43, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Let's fix yours... it's record not recond,lol irony. Sorry but I couldn't help myself to that small joke. Remember this discussion was about if to put the article not fixing errors. Please do try to keep it up under the theme. Reason by Wizardboy "That's like going around to every "Guide to playing an X" and adding "When you're under attack, have someone put prot on you." That's a monk/ritualist thing, not a paragon thing.". It's a wrong approach, needs to be informed but in another way. Thanks.--ShadowFog 03:25, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh shit, paragons can be knocked down? Should we add "susceptible to knockdown" in every single profession article on the wiki? No, that would be stupid. Of course paragons can be knocked down. Everything can be knocked down.
 * This is an article about playing paragon. This is not a general mechanics article. We don't need to include things that apply to every class equally. Vocal minority, for example, is something for a paragon to be worried about that nothing else cares about at all. That should be included in the article. Death, interrupts, knockdowns, blackouts, and error7s should not be mentioned in the article because they have no relevance to playing as a paragon. - Auron 06:38, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've fixed the typo. Anyway, I'm not even remotely qualified to give or endorse advice for PvP, and I don't think that copy editing or fact checking of an article or section should be interpreted as an endorsement of it. -- Gordon Ecker 08:39, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Auron, this is you all over again. No one is specifying knockdown.--ShadowFog 14:01, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

gj completely missing the point --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:75.182.89.73 (talk).

Choice of Secondary Professions Section
I fail to see the point of this section, especially if the majority of the other professions are "offers little benefit to a Paragon primary." Example: "Ritualist offers little benefit to a paragon primary outside of quick hard res skills like Death Pact Signet." What happened to Vocal was Sogolonand Sundering Weapon>Chest Thumper? HELLO!! They all "offer little benefit to the Paragon primary" if your to lazy to use your brain.

I play a Paragon as my main and I find the overall lack of knowledge of how to play one effectively in a GvG/AB/HB setting disturbing. Someone from Anet should write some kind of up to date playing guide or something for it, with maybe a specific build for each of the pvp categories I listed above. Or do they just make blind changes without input from an affiliated Anet Guild.24.56.247.13 06:57, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Vocal was Sologon is good? Since when is denying yourself the ability to use all your best shouts and chants good?
 * Sundering weapon is trash. Use splinter on another character.
 * The vast majority of things a paragon does well come from the paragon and warrior professions.
 * AB and HB aren't really PvP. Paragons are bad at anything less than guaranteed 6v6, which makes them bad anywhere other than HA, GvG, and PvE (where they're excessively overpowered).
 * Also, ANet is bad. Remember the Paladin and the Abominable Snowman? Currently, Auron seems to be keeping tabs on this article to keep the shit out of it, and that should be good enough for anyone.
 * 75.182.89.73 07:15, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You Sir Are free to eat his Arse to boost "it's" over sized Ego

The Guide says the Ranger secondary profession offers little benefit to the Paragon profession. I personal find the ranger a good secondary. Not only can you play as a Paragon with a bow giving you a higher armor rating then a ranger, but apply poison + barbed spear is a good combo. Finally throw in Song of Concentration followed by any trap causes consistant AoE damage without the fear of interruption. Monkey Brainiac 02:45, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd add in that using the Smiting signets with the Monk secondary offers damage, knockdown, and energy management. I use Bane, Castigation, Judgment, and Rage quite effectively.Ravion Hawk 04:14, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

no offense...
This guide is terribly weak... the para is the most versatile of all professions... I've got builds upon builds for this profession, at least one for every secondary, many with three or more, and ALL ARE VIABLE, USEFUL BUILDS. When used correctly, the Paragon NEVER runs outta energy (unless a mesmer forces them to). So why not add some useful builds here... In my opinion the spear chucker and imbagon are the most pointless ways to waste a perfectly good paragon...Zeph 03:17, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Great idea. Now if there was only someone, who played a paragon, with lots of builds, that knew this article was weak and wanted it rebuilt. Know anyone like that Zeph?--Ryudo 03:50, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You are in for a rude awakening. You have here PvX users who are sysops too, not saying it's bad but just look at the builds they encourage at their website for the Paragon. Abysmal it's just short of a sentence describing the kind of support they have for new builds. I too have a lot of builds that have great synergy with teams but is it worth your time to post it on PvX? Read their policies first, if you are still in doubt head here for sites. Besides, this wiki doesn't document builds for that matter, you may talk about skills but even for that geeks here(some sysops include) will debate it's use since their perspective on them is different whether be PvP in general, PvE, GvG only, HA/GvG only, AB only, etc. Good luck though.--ShadowFog 04:02, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually we do host builds in the main namespace, however our build policy only allows articles for common builds and formerly common builds. -- [[Image:User Gordon Ecker sig.png]] Gordon Ecker (talk) 04:17, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * We have two sysops here who are also PvX sysops, one of which who hardly uses it anymore and the other who doesn't use it at all. Even if they did, it would be a moot point because sysops don't decide on article content. Why you even mention sysops is beyond me, because it's as irrelevant as the goat I met earlier.-- 195.195.129.3 [[Image:User Brains12 Spiral.png|18px|]] Brains12 \ talk 10:02, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't want to stir the wrong way. Sysops have the same privilege as us, they are just granted some privileges, you can consult their Policie and Sysop Guide. And yes, as us non-sysops they can decide on article stuff, as evidence you can head to Stonefist Insignia discussion page and read the disagreement I had with Auron(a sysop). In short, yes they can decide because they have the same privileges as us. Just want it to clear that up and nothing more.--ShadowFog 11:46, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm just confused as to why you mention sysops at all. I'll not derail this discussion further. -- [[Image:User Brains12 Spiral.png|18px|]] Brains12 \ talk 12:55, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Because he's on some no doubt righteous crusade against the big evil Auron. Zzzzzzzzz. It would be funny if it were less obvious, but the lack of common sense displayed in the crusade leaves little room for amusement. Seriously? I honestly thought you were kidding (since the block didn't show up on recent changes, isn't listed in my log of blocks performed, and isn't listed in that user's block log), but your persistence makes me think you're actually trying. What the hell is your problem? - Auron 13:33, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

uh...? This is rather odd... I'm relatively new to this whole wiki thing... so, I'm going to answer a question posed to me in the second line, asking about my own attempts... I did try to change one or two things, like the synergies w/ other professions, but it didn't work out, they quickly got rid of it... Guess I'm just tired of being thought of as a "weak" profession when I use the paragon for both healing and fighting (in my opinion they do both better than any monk or derv...)...Zeph 14:18, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * On the history tab, I don't see your name anywhere about "I did try to change one or two things...". Before I go ahead, were you 76.73.144.93 at the time of changes?--ShadowFog 14:53, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Trouble is my shadow, it seems.--Ryudo 15:30, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok...looks like someone like metaphors but you are losing me! Anyhow it doesn't matter your identity. If you feel your changes that were removed were uncalled for or you have facts to back up your points, feel free to discuss here in the discussion page. You may get some nay or some yay. Either way, try to make a different header for it's discussion to defend your changes. A consensus will be reached.--ShadowFog 15:44, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Nah, I don't have a problem that my stuff was erased... it was erased many times before(not necessarily on this page though)... it just that this guide is giving off the wrong message... the Paragon has too many uses, and matches with every secondary profession in some way shape or form to make a good build. the imbagon is not the only good para build...Zeph 15:15, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Confusing text
"Again, the only drawback to playing as a paragon is the loss of energy, which can be avoided by the great use of adrenaline chants, therefore a paragon is almost a necessity in any party. This is the disadvantage of this class, too. A paragon on his own is weak compared to i.e., the Warrior which has several skills that make him quite independent. "

Is the paragon a necessity because the use of adrenaline chants? Or is the adrenaline chants a disadvantege? I think i.e. is the wrong words to use, but my first language isn't english, so I do not really know, anyway, the text needs to be reworked.

Secondary profession
"As a second attribute, the paragons work well with almost anything." And then you take a look at the bottom of the page,"Profession offers little benefit to a paragon primary."

And another thing, isn't "Attack Buffs

Using skills like "Go for the Eyes!" or Anthem of Flame from the Command and Leadership attribute, a Paragon can strengthen the attacks of the party or allies in earshot. "

and "Attack Booster

By using several Command and Leadership skills, a Paragon can boost the physical attacks of his party. Skills like Anthem of Flame, Anthem of Fury, Anthem of Envy and "Go for the Eyes!" are just a few examples of how a Paragon damage or weaken the opponent through the skills of his teammates. "

Pretty much the same thing? (Special:Contributions/ 19:48, 9 February 2009 (UTC))
 * Yep, those are redundant (buffs vs booster). Go ahead and combine / cull the weaker. --JonTheMon 22:20, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

u do know that most ranger pet skills are shouts right? anyways... elementalists have conjure weapons that are sometimes useful with para, especially conjure lightning.