Feedback talk:Linsey Murdock/Skill balance F1

New problem for rits...
You fixed the problem of rits needing a good build for PvE but the new problem is that role is limited to spirits. The problem there is simply everyone brings the same spirits, or there is very large overlap with core skills to justify bringing the character. The problem here is spirits destroy duplicates when created, making more than one rit effectively useless. Most groups bring spirits these days but they only bring one, leaving large numbers of ritualists queuing up in town unable to find a group.

Please allow duplicate spirits in PvE only. It's becoming difficult to find a group for z quests with a SoS rit and very difficult with any other build. Please also buff restoration to help rits alleviate the huuuuge monk shortage for z quests. 110.32.1.105 19:11, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ritualists can deal weapon damage, etc. as well as heal still. I don't see a problem and I don't see it limited to spirits. I used my rit hero as a healer and without spirits, she did fine. ♥ Ariyen ♀ 19:34, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Did? :D - J.P. [[Image:User Jope12 sigicon.png|Feedback]] Talk  19:39, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Allowing duplicate spirits would be such a bad idea. Could you imagine a set of 2-3 Ritualists running the same build in the same spot?  I remember when SoS and Ritualists got their buff and I was running mine in Underworld groups, and yes, everyone is running SoS builds and there is a lot of over-lap but Ritualists aren't limited to just spirits.  Again, people are just flocking to the easiest way of playing something, el how almost every Sin is either, or asked to be, running as a Perma.  More of a kick into Restoration, however, may not be unwarranted but I'd very much advise against allowing duplicate spirits to be viable within spirit range.  000.00.00.00  20:14, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that duplicate spirits would be bad. There are multiple roles for ritualists in this game, just as there are multiple roles for every profession. If individuals are so rigid in what builds they will play that they can't find a compromise for multiple rits in a party they need to just play with h/h. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  20:28, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * eh nothing is stopping people from greffing with mms so its the same thing with rits. they could just make the limit 2 of the same.[[Image:User_Zesbeer_sig.png|link=User talk:Zesbeer‎]] Zesbeer 20:38, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Umm, wait a minute, why are you comparing minions to spirits? - Reanimated X 20:48, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There are enough spirits avaliable to a Ritualist to make them viable if other people are doing the typical Channeling Spirit builds with Signet of Spirits as it's principal skill, again this just comes down to people wanting to run the latest 'in thing' all the time. I will generally run a Communing build if a Channeling build is in use.  There's also Rit spikers, healers, party support.  I'm shocked at how many people overlook the potential of a good WoQ Ritualist running with them.  Rt/N with WoQ and BR, though quite a babysitting role, is useful.  People just need to learn to play the profession instead of going to the gimmick, or wanting to increase it further.  000.00.00.00  20:58, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe that the spirits-kill-clones mechanism was a creative and well-implemented solution to spirit spamming and skill stacking. It's a shame the rest of the ritualist profession wasn't so well-thought-out.  &mdash;Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 21:00, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * When people are having an overlap problem they are either not communicating before setting out or (at least in my experience) are debating in an outpost over who gets to run Signet of Spirits. All they have to do is communicate. While one spirit spamming Channeler is very effective, one Channeler and one or two Communers are downright brutal. And people only have to sort out who does what... -- WarBlade 01:19, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with the general responses: The beauty of being a rit is that you are one of the more versatile hybrids. Not every profession can switch to spirit spamming, channeling striking, or restoration builds. If you group with another rit, simply ping each other builds and see if you can work off of each other. One can do Channeling Spirits, the other can do Communing. Or one can switch to Restoration and heal. Either way, you can help distribute the energy load by building off of each other (such as one person brings Painful Bond, while the other person brings Spirit's Gift with Signet of Spirits. You can also throw in some weapon spells into your builds.) There are a ton of possibilities and roles you can fill if you take a minute to innovate something new. --Rex  [[image:User_Rexivus_sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Rexivus]] 02:14, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait a minute, how is this ANY different from Paragon Shouts? This game was built very carefully around preventing the stacking of the same exact buffs/debuffs.  And the main thing these spirits are doing, is dispensing exactly the kinds of things that shouldn't be stacking.  If Rits get to Stack their buffs, then so should Paragons... And then some other class is gonna want to follow suit, and then another until everything is broken as hell and rits are right back to mediocrity again -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 03:03, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Argue the point all you want. The reality is people want to play their rits. People want to run SoS, and pugs want to bring SoS - but only one. The problem is rits have trouble getting into a group because duplicate spirits make them useless.


 * Guild Wars is a game. The players found a way to play a class they like, a way they like. There is something preventing many of these people from finding a group and it's not because their build is bad. There is a clear problem here. No-one wants to pay $100 to buy a game and then sit in town for 20-40 minutes waiting for someone to pick them of the field of rits out there, but that's currently what is happening.


 * Also, restoration rits can't hold a candle to PvE monks (or even PvP monks). There is a large monk shortage for ZQ. Please buff the PvE restoration line to give the rit the ability to compete with monks and fill the role of healer/prot alleviating to some extent the lack of healers for HM. I know it's possible to fill a monk spot with a rit with PuGs. I did so many times when ZQs were first introduced (it was the only way I was invited to PuGs prior to the spirits buff). It's a lot harder to play a healing rit with pugs - you will fail sometimes where a monk would have succeeded, and often you will be kicked because of it. Energy management is easy but time consuming (time is one of the most important resources for a healer in HM). Casting times are a lot slower especially compared with HB monks. Most viable builds - if not all - require spirits or bundles, which can take precious time to cast or weigh heavily on skill bar compression, not to mention down times of spirits being left behind or being forced to bring summon spirits. Monks have been buffed over the years to become more and more powerful - particularly after the release of HM. Players expect their healer to bring that kind of efficiency to the group, and even with a highly skilled restoration rit there is only so much you can do. 110.32.1.105 09:20, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I highly disagree with the statement of "restoration rits can't hold a candle to PvE monks." It's not just the build, but the person behind it. Before the 3/4 sec spirit changes, the only role I was able to fill in PUGs on my Rit were healing spots, and though I didn't have fancy monks skills, I kept up. It was tough because everybody underestimated rit healers, everybody laughed at my Rt/Me build because it wasnt a PvX build, and in the end, most of the credit went to the monk with people saying "OMG! Great job monk for doing it solo!", as I cried to myself since I was the 2nd healer with no credit. Heck, I even have a Me/Rt healing build for when my groups lack a healer and I want to get credit on my mesmer, and I have healed places like Frostmaws just fine.


 * It's all about personal playstyle and your ability to play builds that work for you. I have a monk and have tried it, but I find my personal playstyle is a lot better attuned to building off of ashes, spirits, and weapon spells. My energy management is a lot better on my rit, and I make due with what resources are available.


 * I apologize that you have not grouped with better ritualists, but I think people in general need to open their eyes and look beyond the builds. Technically, a monk might look better on paper, but don't underestimate innovative builds and skill of the creator. Ritualists deserve much more respect than is given to them! I take pride in being a Rit, whether its spirits or resto, and even though I rarely get credit for doing a good job, at least I know I did my job efficiently and effectively. --Rex  [[image:User_Rexivus_sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Rexivus]] 16:35, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * LOL at people still puging. i hurd heroes are good if you give them good bars.[[Image:User_Zesbeer_sig.png|link=User talk:Zesbeer‎]] Zesbeer 09:51, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Food for thought:
 * Spirit Bond, Shield of Absorption, Shield of Deflection, Patient Spirit, and Selfless Spirit were all cool in HM. How many of them have taken (hard) nerfs?
 * I understand that it's not central to the point you were trying to make; consider it an aside. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  10:08, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * You're frustated, this is clear. But the angle you're presenting is a broken concept, and the logic you are using is flawed.  Pugs want SoS spammers, players want to be SoS spammer but that's not enough to justify for a change.  Not to be rude but there's more to Guild Wars than Ritualists and there more to Ritualist than SoS spamming.  The point you're expressing is more an issue with the players than with the functionality of Ritualist design, which isn't limited to SoS spammers yet that's another discussion.
 * Let's entertain the notion of removing the spirit limitation for a second, shall we? Since you've given no other information other than to just allow duplication I'll run just on that.
 * Could you actually imagine how devastating a team of 8 Ritualists would be if they could each run SoS spammer builds at the same, in the same spot within range of each other? I run an SoS build with 8 spirits, soloing places like NM UW (bar a few quests).  Now if I could take 7 other Ritualists with 8 spirits each, that 64 spirits total.  That's 64 ranged attacks of armor ignoring damage, even life stealing/healing, 50% damage reduction with Armor of Unfeeling, mass portability with Summon Spirits and the likes.  Does that sound like a good idea?  How is that balanced by any stretch of the imagination?  Why would you want to play any other profession then?  Even, what could stop that?  
 * It's simple saying "allow this, allow that" but you're not giving any good reason to justify the change. There's no good, logical reasoning presented, because "just because people want to play this" or "it's a game" are not justifible reasons.
 * I don't want to seem like I'm attacking you, I'm not. I'm more wanting you to actually present the idea beyond simply "allow duplicate spirits in PvE only" because that allows my example above, and that's an absolutely horrid idea.  000.00.00.00  10:30, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Additionally, there's a Feedback space perfect for this kind of thing. 000.00.00.00  10:45, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

tl;dr more than one Rit running the same 5/6/7 spirits would be so op. What did you expect the comunity to favour with the buff? Just have one Rit run SoS with channeling spirits and another run SoGM and communing ones. -- smøni 17:00, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

There are 10 professions, you don't need more than one ritualist in a team, 8 spirit spammers with 6..8 spirits each would be overkill. And don't get me wrong, I do love my Channelling/Spawning Power spirit spammer builds (that works way better than the puny channeling/communing I see way too often) but I don't see why should the entire party be composed of that. I can deal with all melee fighters and some casters myself alone with that build, so it's better if the party brings other things, like healing and things to deal with enemy healers. MithTalk 16:57, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * As a comment: I've ran multiple Ritualists while hero-henching. SoS is the obvious one, but if you want to spam offensive spirits and someone's already running SoS, there's Signet of Ghostly Might. Or if that doesn't work, you can use something like the old ritlord build with Armor of Unfeeling. Finally, in my experience, the healing Rit does still see a decent amount of play. Ritualists still stack, it's just that you only get the near-automatic shoe-in of SoS once per party. Many professions don't even have that. Draxynnic 05:30, 25 September 2009 (UTC)