ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Miscellaneous/Victory or Death

I would love to hear back from you Izzy. Also, here is a Team QQ thread, full of great suggestions/possible improvements. Ignore the first couple of pages, as it is filled mostly with shitter drama. I would also like to thank Deviant, for some of his ideas. His post was on an earlier page, that was unfortunately surrounded by shitter posts. Thanks in advance. -- Readem 10:02, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, if you ever have time in-game, I would like to talk to you about the state of TA. It is largely ignored (skill balance-wise), and is now dominated by gimmicks. My IGN is: Readem Redemption. I am available anytime you are (if ever). I realize the DEVs lead busy lives, and so I give "thanks in advance". -- Readem 10:10, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Hey guy, we're not supposed to post this stuff anymore, so before Brains moves it, I rec. you C+P your point and post it here: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/ArenaNet:Skill_feedback/Miscellaneous/New_GvG_Ideas even though the list doesn't seem to update with new issues at all (the list under Misc. doesn't list mine at least...how it's expected for Izzy to read it when it's invisible in a list without having to edit it in idk (I'll go do that now).) and he probably won't read it very shortly, but it's what the sysops all want even though this isn't skill feedback either. so get on it before it goes poof! :P Just pointing this out to you so we can all have this stuff posted in the same spot and have Izzy see it (with any hope, though I am pretty sure he abandoned the skill feedback sections too) DarkNecrid 10:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The sysops are rarely reliable about such things. This however, is a viable suggestion (compounded on by other various other members of the PvP community). I am not going to stand for some random administrator moving this relevant issue into obscurity. They do not, and should not have the ability to vastly alter a game DEV's (or anyone's for that matter) talk page, without his/her full consent. I am not trolling (for once), nor hassling anyone (for a change), and am attempting to contribute positively. So leave my topic be until Izzy reads it. -- Readem 10:45, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Mind you, I agree with you, and they are suggesting us to use two things Izzy also abandoned for the same reasons he abandoned this one - not because it is hard to edit or something like that (that only became part of the problem when the real problem happened), but because people are dumb and clutter it and argue about every single little thing - like Shard or something called someone a stupid HBer or something last archive. There are some skill things on the skill feedback that are ridiculous too. I think rather than locking it down, they should just use forum-esque rules and remove flaming/trolling/pointless bickering towards Izzy and other people. Stuff like this GvG stuff and compliments aren't bad, and with the GvG stuff fairly important to discuss. I'm actually doing a pretty bad thing by replying to this but I don't care. Locking the page down is kind of stupid if you include everything, because it does defeat a part of the point of what the page was originally for. Izzy never had a problem with people discussing skills or GvG stuff on his talk page before and if anyone honestly believes he did they are uninformed. Ensign and Farin used to use this wiki talk page to talk about stuff with Izzy along with other top people - and he didn't mind. It wasn't until a bunch of idiots decided to argue about everything, troll and flame him every chance they got, etc, that he stopped. If the Sysops would take a chance to see what Izzy actually liked and didn't mind, and force the Wikipage to go back to that instead of making it entirely useless (he doesn't bother with skill feedback, which is why I suggested that change....fyi...), we might get somewhere. DarkNecrid 11:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

And I am sure, that if Izzy doesn't even view these pages, he most assuredly doesn't read the talk pages. -- Readem 12:57, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Izzy might've removed VoD from game so that they'd have no need to update it (giving more time for GW2 and less suggestions from community), hence there's no use trying to suggest changes to it, unless they revert it as whole and after that see possible changes, which is unlikely. 91.152.183.154 15:25, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow, for once, I agree with you Readem. Maybe don't bring VoD back, but instead improve the npcs themselves to make them valuable, add a little variety to them.  Maybe a mesmer or two with an enchant removal, some degen, and interesting hexes, or another class.  Maybe even dual class them.  And have them all go with the guild lord- it makes more sense tactically.  Lastly, I agree on the splitting point- it needs to come back.  Not sure how to do it though.  --Kalas Silvern 01:13, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

VoD led to really dumb builds full of defense that just lamed for 20 minutes then nuked the npcs. What izzy needs to do for GvG is make npcs valuable and splits viable without making npcs make or break the game and things like sinsplit imba. It is a tall order but....well he IS the guild wars skill balancer. He should be able to think of something.Demosthenes 17:09, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

VoD updates and "forcing to split"
Just mentioning to Izzy and his balancing team, if you obs the top100 GvGs in AT and off-AT, you might notice that your massive changes on VoD hasn't changed a bit how people play GvG, it's still 7+1v7+1, heck even the fc mes/ele has stayed.

The reason might be because players want faster games, or because they want rather 8v8 another somewhat balanced for possibly good match, or because they couldn't be arsed running around map when you can just go to the usual place and 8v8. Anyway my point is that even if you "force" guilds to split to win, they will still use builds designed more for 8v8 as long as they're viable (compared to meta) and Split-Wars-Will-Not-Happen-In-Near-Future because of that. If you make the game unplayable without splitting, it propably results in many players quitting the game saying it's "ruined", meaning their favored no-splitting-if-possible playstyle is no longer useable.

So if you wish this games competitive part to continue (not as great as it used to be but) still good compared to other games, please take the beforementioned thing account when modifying GvG mechanics.

P.S. [evil] doesn't seem to be changing the meta much with their "comeback" from what seen, more like blending in by using similar teambuilds, so I don't think it's use keeping hopes on them either. Only topguild playing more how you like it to be played is [NOW], not commenting any of their skills as it'd be biased, but it's clearly seen from how they play one-war build on frozen. 91.156.70.42 19:19, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

You realise that with killing VoD he just dropped the reason to split ? 8 vs 8 is far more effective and instead of sineptitude we have rangerspikes.Bad gimmicks replace other bad gimmicks.(bad as in bad for the game).Imo Bring back VoD and buff skills like SoR,War selfheal,War snares,... and nerf sin splits (in a decent way aftercast will not work) and perhaps splittin ineptitude into pvp and pve will also prove to be the right thing.Many skills were overpowered at VoD but are actually quite "balanced".Just buff selfheal and proly heal actually and youll get faster games.(like nuklear said stronger heals = less skill slots spent on healing = faster games) Lilondra   *poke*  18:23, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

The goal of the change wasn't to force everyone to split it was to allow split to be a viable tactic, before it wasn't and now it is, its not going to change the fact that a lot of the teams now don't like to split and prefer to 8v8. It's going to take time for split teams to adapt and split is a harder tactic to play so naturally it will take a while to play out, in the end the new Vod plays out a lot better then the old one allows for split to happen. I don't expect teams like [Evil] who haven't played in 2 years to come back and instantly start winning :P they have to relearn the game but the fact they play in 2-3 AT's a day sure doesn't hurt :P. Those guys will turn heads because they put their heart and soul into it, and if anyone can show people how to split it's them. As for everyone else, we're seeing a lot of split happening in every game, it's meant to be a tactic used in game not just a play style. Izzy @  -' 19:29, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Split wasn't viable tactic before? O ok. 91.152.178.115 04:51, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I thinl what izzy is trying to say is that split wasnt a viable tactic unless it was BROKEN like the sineptitude build and like any build that used sins to gank a base Lilondra   *poke*  13:53, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Pretty much nail on the head, and I don't really consider sineptitude a split build, thats more of a fancy NPC farming build. Izzy  @  -' 01:20, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Just because your job has gotten easier now with no VoD doesn't mean the game doesn't need updating. These gimmicks ruin the fun of GvG. Once they are out of the way and NPCs actually have a reason to exist, then GvG will probably be worthwhile again. 92.232.90.107 14:48, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

First izzy has to find a good way to make splitting healthy again.Doing so will cause an enormous decrease in gimmick build.Imo selfheals are the solution.Increasing the power of the monk will not only decrease the time a match takes (as it allows you to pack more offensive and shutdown skills).It will also make base defending easier (ala anti sinsplit) and will make healthy splits better (ala w-r-flagrunner) as they are able to survive. Lilondra  *poke*  16:59, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Splitting isn't hard atm noone just cares to do it, the problems in gvg mechanics are that new tiebreaker is too homosexual (you like it when abusin it, hate it otherwise :p anyway needs better one or way more reduc for BG), bodyguard reduction doesn't do crap atm (needs to be like 50%-90% to be any use) and Wastrel's Worry breaking the tiebreaker even more. In example:


 * Two meta balanced teams fight, one with Wastrel's Worry on dom mesm, one without it.


 * One team manages push the other team into their base->temporarily aggroes Knights and mesmer goes for Wastrel's spamming lord for 1min. -> Team wiping due to npcs but did dmg to GL -> by time needs to pulls back into their base.


 * Now in their base they just defend rest time untill 28min which isn't that hard if you keep NPCs alive.


 * As DP does not matter for tiebreaker, even if the other team "should've won" for DPing defenders 45 or so, but not wiping yet they can only rush for lord at 27min -> BUT enemy team already did 3000dmg in 1min because of wastrels spamming and there's no way you can do the same by kamikazing a lord without it. 137.163.16.66 10:06, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Splitting should be reintroduced but to do that monk skills need buffs (not WoH no) Lilondra  [[Image:Eviscerate.jpg|19x19px]] *poke*  14:31, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * They don't need rly, I don't see any point in that. The only prob is that tiebreaker fails in srs pvp, tie it to something like Health- or Moralechart or the overall one and make GL health affect it (if possible to code such)? It wouldn't be totally balanced, but at least if other team is clearly going to win in later game then they would. 91.154.3.172 01:32, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Why would monks need to be buffed to split? TA is a great example that if set to do so a small team, or a monk, can defend against many random encounters.  People have everything they need to split, tons of great split builds exist, people just don't want to split.  Personally I find it more fun than 7v7 but most people LACK the tactics needed to organize a proper split and common sense of who does what in case of what as well as the fact that you have to rely more on your other team mates, meaning it's harder to make up slack for 1/4 of your team than it would be to 1/8.  It's not a build issue, people are just stuck in their ways and would rather run what has always been ran and follow the builds of the top guilds at the time than try anything of their own most the time.  No update will make anyone grow some and be willing to try something new that isn't already.  Sinsplit showed theres tons of ideas you can come up with, I've seen dual ele split do well, I've won tons of matchs vs top 200-300 with some R/X, Hexer, Monk, Frontline 2-way split.  Just for the record being a monk, I believe if any changes are to be made we need a nerf.  It's horrible how the lines between a good monk and a bad monk fade when theres a magic red bar go up button you can redbar with and how many stances and such we can use to keep up. Anything short would make you wonder, why do we need a  defensive midline when monks can keep up alone? 74.229.66.241 16:15, 23 September 2008 (UTC)