Talk:Birthday Present

2nd Birthday coming up
With the second birthday coming up soon (5 days from now, IIRC), any suggestions on how we are going to include that into this article? Or are we going to wait until we know what kind of present it is going to be? -- (CoRrRan / talk) 07:12, 23 April 2007 (EDT)
 * i suggest waiting what type of present it will be, ok Gaile did create a post and people start assuming and suggesting alot, but we are never 100% sure that they will be miniature creatures again. Should they be miniature pets then they can be added in a new table under the notes section. Should they be something else, we will have to wait and see what it is before we can think of how we can throw it in a page layout. - Saelfaer 07:32, 23 April 2007 (EDT)
 * Yes it may be a different named present which means it could be a different article altogether, speculating is really of no use right now as we have nothing to go on. -- Lemming64 07:34, 23 April 2007 (EDT)
 * Do you have a link to that post Saelfaer, I guess it's on GWG or GWO? And personally I hope it'll be something different than a minipet. -- [[Image:Corrran.png|CoRrRan]] (CoRrRan / talk) 09:24, 23 April 2007 (EDT)
 * yes i do, both GWG and GWO had a post created by Gaile... you can find em here (GWG) and here (GWO). - Saelfaer 09:43, 23 April 2007 (EDT)

ok in the announcements of when you log into guild wars, it says if your character turns 2, you get one of the special birthday presents; so what about your 1 year old characters? will they also get presents? and i guess that means i can't ever delete a char, cause my new char can't get birthday presents ;_;
 * Each of your characters gets a birthday present - it's not account-wide. When a character has existed on your account for one year (type /age to check), it will get one of the old birthday presents (series one).  Once it becomes two years old it'll get a series two present.  If you delete a character and remake it, you'll have to wait another year before it will get a series one present. — [[Image:User_Kyrasantae_Fin_sig.gif]]  kyrasantae  01:40, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

Help, can't open my present
I have a 1st Birthday present in my inventory but no matter how much I double-click it, it won't open. Has anyone else had this problem? Any suggestions? 80.229.165.248 09:37, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Have you tried opening the the present on another character or just on the same one? --[[Image:User Gummy Joe Sig Icon.PNG]]Gummy Joe 09:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Never mind, sorted now, I traveled to a different outpost and was able to open it at first attempt. For the record, I had been in a mission outpost when it wouldn't open, if that helps anyone else who gets this problem, or means anything :P. 80.229.165.248 09:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I=Only opens in Town or Outpost, this means no Mission Outpost probably Tomoko 08:41, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Show Age at Caracter Select Screen
Is there any way that we could have /age as one of the stats shown in the Character Select screen? I would prefer it down to the Day, or Hour, but even The Birthday Month would be nice. Surely it wouldn't be hard to implement... right? -- RavenJWolfe 08:50, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Frankly, I would be happy if they simply added that stuff to the /age command, and possibly even the date and time of creation. 67.172.93.185 16:57, 27 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed -- RavenJWolfe [[image:User_RavenJWolfe_Icon4sig.png]] 09:28, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Birthday Tracking
Here's a question. How does it track when your character's birthday is? By the Month? Day? Hour? -- RavenJWolfe 02:27, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Definitely to the day at least, possibly to the hour but I am not sure. -- Lemming [[Image:User Lemming64 sigicon.png]] 10:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * At least to the hour. I checked one toon in the afternoon, and no gift. When I logged in later that evening, there was the present.--Pyron Sy 17:14, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I wish that Gaile could give us a definite answer...And I'd like to see timestamped (as in "April 1st, 2006 08:15AM") birthday's in the future. (GW2) I hate guessing when my birthday is going to be.... -- RavenJWolfe [[image:User_RavenJWolfe_Icon4sig.png]] 01:24, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Its probably by minute/second. When u first make a character it will say how long you have played them. it shows by this:


 * minutes
 * hours/minutes
 * days/hours
 * month

At least i am pretty sure it goes like that--Justice 18:57, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I want to point this out though its not to important I guess. But for people who are curious Rollbacks in Game caused by Anet does not affect Your Character's Birthday even if the Rollback goes as far as 8 hours you still will get it the exact time u made ur character. I know this b/c I made my characters exactly on the day of my birthday and got my presents that night instead of the date hitting the date of birth and etc etc. --72.178.138.105 01:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

how do they define birth date
im just confused, how they define the birthday date.. is it the day of ur account creation or the day of ur character creation?--Sanmigdark 15:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's per character, not account creation date :) - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]] 15:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Also to add to Anja's answer type in /age to check how old your character is as well as your overall account. -- Kakarot [[Image:User_Kakarot_Sig.gif|Talk]] 15:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Stacking?
I Have a Question on mind. Do Birthday Presents Stack? As Soon as people get them they open them to be able to test this out. If Possible This Might be the New Ecto seeing its the most expensive stackable Item. --72.178.138.105 12:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Not too sure if they stack, I presume they would as Wintersday Gift's stack. These wouldn't become the new ecto as people are too keen to open them when they recieve one (everyone gets drawn by the temptation when they realise they have a small chance of getting a mini bone dragon or the like), and you only recieve one per character per year. Would be nice to know if they stacked though - I should have tested to find out as I've had two birthday presents over the last two days. - [[Image:User FirstSunspear icon.png|15px| ]] FirstSunspear /// Talk 13:03, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It would never be the new ecto as their value is absolutely certain to decrease quite drastically over time, one of the requirements of a replacement to currency is that it retains it's value in relation to the gold you are using it instead of. -- Lemming [[Image:User Lemming64 sigicon.png]] 13:35, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Well Seeing Rare Minis like the Mini Beetle or the mini Polar Bear others would ask for a stack of Armbraces which is acting like a currency trade for the millions and etc. like the ecto. They are worth about 25k each are they? As of also seeing it comes every year it has a controlled rate and the only thing that depends is if the player opens it ASAP as soon as they get 2(thats why this is a tricky question) or if they delete a character before the year comes around. Unlike the ecto it can not be bought or farmed easily which is the reason ecto changes its value now and then. To farm presents some one has to have 1 account with ALOT of character slots and has to wait a year later to collect them. --72.178.138.105 13:41, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The price of (first year) birthday presents has gone down a lot since they first came out. They will drop in price even more when the 3rd year ones come out within 2 months. Also people want minipets to add to their Hall of Monuments which encourages more people to open theirs instead of trading the present. - [[Image:User FirstSunspear icon.png|15px| ]] FirstSunspear /// Talk 13:51, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yea The more years Anet adds the prices on presents do change though the more years they also add the Harder they are to farm, As I Known someone who was planing to buy at least 10 GW accounts just to Farm them, though he didnt do it as of the how much it would cost him. For 3rd year Presents it would be almost impossible to farm seeing you have to create a account(s) and wait 3 years for them as of the 2nd and 1st year presents. Its one of the hardest items to farm in game if you ask me(compared to one of a kind items that havent yet dropped from Zishian chests) --72.178.138.105 14:11, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Still as I said, the price fluctuates too much to be a stable mechanism for trading. Also the price is based on the value of the items you get out, which is for the most part worthless, and not on the item itself, which is why relative actual abundance of this item is irrelevant to the price. Ecto's only drop in one place, and while they can be farmed, there are two huge "ecto-sinks" in the game to take them back out, meaning the price is actually pretty stable for the most part. -- Lemming [[Image:User Lemming64 sigicon.png]] 14:24, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Well Farming takes hours and this type of Farming takes years. As of a Coffer of Whispers which has a change to Drop a mini Malax(sp) But what we are talking about is not the main point, The Main posint is Do Presents stack? Seeing that the info, "Players can trade Presents" are in the article, some people want to know do they stack also? We know for a fact we can trade them but can we trade 250 of them at once? --72.178.138.105 01:11, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * We can't, just tryed it with two 2nd year gift, they are not stackable. lussh 22:52, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

3th Birthday
When is the date and time for this? When is it for early access accounts? (Pre Order) -- TigerWolf  14:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm so hoping he means 3rd. -- Salome [[Image:User_salome_sig.png|19px]] 14:20, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sure he does. It's a common mistake for second language learners of English. Kokuou 19:07, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * For second language learners? Do you mean for people who it is not their primary language? &mdash;  ク  Eloc  貢  02:12, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That is what he said... -- Lemming [[Image:User Lemming64 sigicon.png]] 16:25, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, in second language acquisition theory, we call them second language learners, even if it's their third or even fourth language. It just means learners of a language that isn't their native (or first) language. Yay, linguistics is F-U-N! Kokuou 10:36, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

birthday bug
So is anyone else having this problem or it just me? Basically what has happened is that I created 3 characters when factions came out. I created all 3 within a week of each other. However 1 of these 3 got a birthday present about 2 weeks ago now and the other 2 are still waiting. So either 1 char got theirs mega early or 2 chars are getting theirs quite late. Anyone else or is it just me? EDIT: Nevermind just worked out what happened. (grumbles about stupid sibling hiding my birthday presents) -- Salome 12:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well that's good to hear. &mdash;  ク  Eloc  貢  00:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Captain Obvious
So, who has been cosplaying as Captain Obvious and adding "This is a miniature version of a [insert creture name]" to every minipet page? I think it's pretty clear that, let's say the Miniature Jungle Troll, is in fact, a miniature version of a Jungle Troll. Then again, it has a certain amusement factor. ^^ --  Verhaze   19:43, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the biggest reason is to provide an easy link for those interested in the creature :) - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]] 20:09, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, hm, I can live with that explanation ^^ Thanks --  Verhaze  [[Image:User Verhaze V Sig.gif]] 10:18, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Inventory Full
So what happens when the inventory is full on your birthday? --RoyHarmon 04:02, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You wont get a present it same's i dont have it on my storage account and he is 13months old:S 145.53.242.142 21:21, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You need to empty a space in your inventory and then it will show up. You may have to log out and back in again, though. Kokuou 21:36, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If your inventory is full, clear one spot, then log out of the character. When you load that character again, you'll have the present.--Pyron Sy 21:45, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if this has changed or not but I had inventory full when it was my birthday and opened a space within that same month and still never got a present for that year. 65.184.76.241 00:28, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Birthday GW != Birthday RL
Is it true, that a year within GW is not exact the same as in RL ? I have created some chars on 27th October 2006 and they got their birthday presents on 25th October. --Gib Resahp 10:12, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * A year within Guild Wars is 365 days. You must have incorrect dates. :) [[Image:UserDrago-sig.gif]]  Drago  09:16, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The Mouvelian Calendar, Canthan Calendar and Dynastic Reckoning have 360 day years, but Birthday Presents use real world years. People would've noticed if the 1st year miniatures appeared 5 days early, 2nd year miniatures apperaed 10 days earlier and 3rd year miniatures appeared 15 days early. -- Gordon Ecker 10:21, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking that this could be to do with the fact that the GW server time is GMT? - I know that when using /age it says it to the hour, how long you've been playing on that character (I know this from characters /age'd under a day old) - so I may be wrong, but if in the long run, only the DATE is recorded as opposed to the HOUR, then it might be a 5-7(+) hour delay, depending on where you're from? just an idea. - R evelation talk 22:44, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * So does anyone know what time zone they use to calculate the date? Last year I created a character on February 29th to see if I would get my present before or after.  I received the present on the 28th this year, but as I was posting the results, I noticed it is already March 1st in UTC.  Since I didn't check earlier in the day, I can't be sure what time it actually became available to my inventory.  Any ideas? 76.0.80.227 00:38, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * My best guess would be that you get a present every 365 days, not every year. That also explains why most people get theirs 1 day early now (due to leap year being 366 days). 145.94.74.23 10:52, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Close enough, jesus christ. Why nitpick over 1 day.-- [[Image:User_Vanguard_VanguardLogo.png|19px]] anguard  19:15, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, I believe we did not incorporate Leap Year into the calculations, so 365 days it is! -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 21:14, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

pre-searing
i'm wondering who will have 4th bday in pre and when, personally i'm at 46 months, should turn to 47 in a couple of days; i hope i'll be one of the first, black dyes will be raining then :>78.20.153.111 10:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 37 months in pre Alexanderpas Talk|Contrib|Guild 19:12, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

PvP characters
Just got one on an old pvp character that hit 1. Too funny. Justice 20:43, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have two permanent pvp characters that I use as mules and don't delete, one of them is 15 months, the other is 10 or so. ;3 ~Ryuu [[Image:User_Ryuu_Desu_Sig.png|18px]][  Talk | Contributions  ] 20:47, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 37 m/o pvp ele, beat that! Sonic Friday User Da Sonic Sig2.png 21:59, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

I have almost 5 years old pvp monk its still no present ;( (78.58.12.69 06:46, 28 October 2010 (UTC))
 * Aye I have a couple on 4 years :) -- Lemming [[Image:User Lemming64 sigicon.png]] 18:20, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Birthdays and Suspensions

 * If your account is temporarily banned on a character's birthday they do not receive a gift.

Are you kidding me? I was banned on the very day all my characters were due to receive their 3rd year birthday presents over a stupid argument with another player. Why is this in effect? Isn't a ban punishment enough? -- The preceding unsigned comment was added by'' 174.112.239.236 (talk).
 * IP, it's obvious that Gaile is aware of your circumstance. I, personally, agree with you and think it's ridiculous that this happens (even though it's never happened to me). However, try reporting it to support and see what happens. Karate [[File:User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png]] Jesus  20:43, 4 January 2010  (UTC)
 * KJ -- I'm researching this. There is no need to contact Support. So far, we do not believe this is the case, but the wiki notes it, so I'm tracking down the truth. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 20:49, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I have done a line through on the Birthday Presents page, because it contains inaccurate information regarding presents and account suspensions. According to the Guild Wars Live Team programmer, "Account suspensions has no effect at all on birthday presents. Birthday presents are handed out based on the difference between the current date and the date of character creation; there’s no reason or code to track the exact amount of active account time." So, once every 365 days, from the date of creation, you get a birthday present. If you're not online, or if you're suspended, you get it when next you log in. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 23:22, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for confirming, Gaile. ^_^ And as for the note, it's not obvious, especially since Gaile didn't even know, so it's noteworthy and I'm adding it back. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 23:33, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * That was added over a year ago, incidentally. -- FreedomBound [[Image:User_Freedom_Bound_Sig.png|19px]] 23:36, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It wasn't disputed until now. What's your point? --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 23:39, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * That it was there for a year, and no one disputed it. Nothing sinister about it. -- FreedomBound [[Image:User_Freedom_Bound_Sig.png|19px]] 00:14, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Ahkay. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 01:02, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Nothing for 5th year?
A lot of people are saying their chars turned 5 today but haven't gotten a present. No information on what the 5th year minis are yet? Darn it, I was looking forward to coming home and seeing what they were. :( Oh well, my char doesn't turn 5 for two more years anyway but...yeah. Tender Wolf   21:46, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe the update's a bit late? -- smøni 21:51, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Didn't the live servers open on 26th April 2005, which was 2 days before offical launch of 28th April for those that had pre-ordered. If so, how can any char be 5 yet? Muppet 22:04, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Who are these "a lot of people?" I have a hard time believing it. Guild wars came out on April 28th, 2005, early access was one day before that, and the leap year 1-day adjustment makes the 5 year birthdays of the early-access characters fall on the 26th. All the beta characters were wiped, so only the devs can have a character that turns 5 before the 26th. So, liez until I see a screenshot with /age saying 60 months. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]Rose Of Kali 22:08, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

MOX
LAME! How is he a green? X.x -- 84.192.9.50 07:38, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Tell me about it. Still no Miniature Glint ><  Firoas. [[Image:User_firoas_decap_sig.png|19px|talk]] 13:22, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Water Magic. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]Rose Of Kali 00:35, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

no new mini djinn =\
i really wanted a mini Diamond Djinn, we technically have ruby and sapphire djinns already >.> guild wars let me down on the new mini's AurenX 00:40, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Diamond Djinn is identical to Ruby, though, just a slightly different kind of orange. That would be worse than Whiptail Devourer -> Siege Devourer. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]Rose Of Kali 07:50, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * meh they look different tho, i would have liked to see itAurenX 16:03, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

1st year present not present?
My char has reached 13 months and i can't see any present. Help! --Rob The Spellbinder 11:07, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
 * 1. Type  to double-check the character's exact age. 2. If the answer is over 12 months, make sure you have at least 1 empty inventory space that's not in an equipment pack. If there was not an empty space, make one, log out, and log back in on that character. 3. If you haven't received your present after 1 and 2, dig through the gray areas of your brain to make sure you hadn't opened the present before and forgotten about it. Also, ask your little brother or whomever else who could have accessed your game to see if they screwed with your account and took your present. (Also, it's against the EULA to have anyone access your account, even if it's due to negligence and not protecting your login info.) 4. If you still don't have your present after 1-3 were satisfied, contact, you caught some kind of bug. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]Rose Of Kali  20:25, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Exact Age
Is there a way to find a more accurate age of your character than just in months? I have 16 characters across 2 accounts and I'm trying to make a list so I know when to check characters for bday presents, as some characters go months without me logging onto them. A month is a long time, I don't see why they couldn't have just done age in years, months and weeks/days. Chibot2000 18:00, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd like to know as well thanks. I'm sure not everyone is anal enough to take exact note of their character's birthdays and write them all down.. typically we create a character and play, we receive a birthday present for every year that character has stuck around.  When we get to 1 year old we think 'oh this is nice, wonder what this will be...' but later on I've found we get a little (or a lot) more attentive to when exactly our characters have a birthday.  I'm guessing nothing will be done about this in this late stage of GW, but I do hope something will be done to address this issue in GWII.


 * You can make a formal suggestion. The developers are unlikely to respond, but they have implemented or taken inspiration from many of the ideas posted. (You can also write or email ANet.) — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 17:04, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * --<span style="background-color: Lavender; -moz-border-radius: 5px; -webkit-border-radius: 5px; border: 1px solid #c7c7c7; padding: 0 5px;"> Neil • User Neil2250 sig icon6.png 20:22, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Table format
I was going to implement version 2 after I applied version 1, cause version 1 sucked. Version 1 was reverted before I could implement the change, and was told it would be nicer to discuss it here, so here I am. What does everyone think? &mdash; δ(x) 03:41, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I prefer the compactness of version 2, but it will be awkward for narrow windows (especially after the 6th year presents arrive). I prefer the status quo to version 1; if we're going to use a lot of white space, I'd prefer that the years are more distinct and that we can see all six years in the ToC. These are weak preferences; I am happy to defer to others who feel more strongly about any particular arrangement. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 04:09, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The can-not-extend-to-over-9000-years problem is actually why I implemented version 1 first. However, when that day comes for version 2, we can simply split to two tables corresponding to years 1-4500 and 4501-9000. Additionally, I do feel that there is enough space to a few more years; I've implemented User:Delta_function/Sandbox just to give an idea. I'm on a 1280-pixel-wide resolution, so that's where my opinion comes from. As a personal preference, I never really cared for TOC's in wiki's, especially in small pages like this, so I don't quite share your sympathy there. I just wanted to see everything without using a horizontal scroll. &mdash; δ(x) 04:45, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I resized my browser to ~800 pixels wide, and the thin table is pretty much a perfect fit at that size. I don't know for sure how common the 800x600 resolution is these days, but a quick google suggests that most folks have something larger, and that would be especially true for gamers. So the thin version would be perfect if we started a new one when the sixth year minis are released. I know I just implied that the thin table could handle more columns, but I would keep it to five years for three reasons: firstly, to make it more accessible for the few who do use 800x600; secondly, to make it easier on the eyes for everyone else; and thirdly, because I think we should keep the thumbnails of each mini in the table (they're useful), which would eat up a bit more space.
 * An alternative: what about making the table/s collapsible? Is it possible to collapse rows within a table? For what it's worth, I like the ToC; I think it's handy for skipping straight to the year you're looking for. --Wormwood 05:19, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not a big fan of changing the look. They are clearly sorted and also allow for easy TOC navigation. The only benefit you could get out of reorganization would be to reduce white spaces, but then you come to a width issue. And while you could go with a thin table, I don't think it would help, since the current tables help by having an image next to each item, and that would bump the table out even further or leave all the content rather squished. No change, imo. --JonTheMon 05:30, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I've added thumbnails. How is it? &mdash; δ(x) 19:30, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Similar to my comments above, the wide version is too wide, and the thin version is too squished. --JonTheMon 19:46, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * You could have any width you want so it's not too wide and not too squished. &mdash; δ(x) 19:55, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The issue with the squished lists is the line break within each mini's name. Having 1 icon for 2 lines of text is where I see it squished. --JonTheMon 20:03, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * That feels sort of arbitrary, but regardless, addressing the TOC point, who needs a TOC when everything is already on your screen? &mdash; δ(x) 20:21, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm gonna preempt you and see say no to the small text. And sometimes people like navigating using the ToC instead of immediately having to figure out a table. --JonTheMon 21:30, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * You're going to not let me finish before shooting it down? And to shoot it down with no reason now? Common, have some patience and be mature. Also, sometimes, people don't like navigating using the ToC, so that completely nullifies your last point. Seriously, don't pull half-empty statements like that that makes your argument look desperate. &mdash; δ(x) 21:55, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Examples of pages that don't use a ToC doesn't mean everyone likes the way those pages are organised. Personally, I find the dungeon and skills list pages annoying to navigate without a ToC, and the Drakescale armour page is fine to me only because the list is so small, not split into categories, and all the information easily fits on my screen. With minis, the list is large, split into categories, and requires scrolling to see everything, so a ToC is worth considering here. --Wormwood 18:50, 19 March 2011 (UTC)


 * That's the point; these arguments go both ways, and generalizations prove nothing. &mdash; δ(x) 20:46, 19 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I like the thin version of your thumbnails table, although the small text could cause issues for users with poor vision or small settings on their browser/monitor. Is there a solution to that which won't make the table significantly bigger? We could always remove the fifth column and just start a new table straight away, I guess, but if we're using multiple tables anyway that aren't even ToC-able, why not stick with the old system? --Wormwood 18:50, 19 March 2011 (UTC)


 * To answer your last point, more vertical scroll; ability to see more in one screen. Also, we can always ToC the actual tables when we get more of them. &mdash; δ(x) 20:46, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that seems fair to me. --Wormwood 21:18, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The reason I preempted you is that that version is probably the least usable of all the alternatives, even the regular wide version. Don't use small text for primary data. And I felt like preempting you because it was that bad. The ToC comment was more to present another idea that focuses more on functionality rather than aesthetics. --JonTheMon 22:22, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * That's no excuse for preempting. You do not judge something before it is ready to be presented. Do you preemptively shoot down other proposals with broken tables because the author hasn't finished balancing braces? Broken tables are that bad as well. Seriously, have some patience. Sure, you might not like the small text, but don't use that as an excuse for preempting. There is no good reason to do so. Additionally, that also does not excuse your post with no substance.
 * On a related note, the focus of my proposal is entirely functionality based; I want to be able to locate more minis with less scrolling. This would address the question, "Is a mini burning titan + cash worth a flowstone?"
 * Also, wiki does uses smaller text for primary data. &mdash; δ(x) 02:04, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Summary (and continued discussion)
(Reset indent)

Let's refocus the conversation back to the original issues:
 * Paging down:
 * The current layout uses a ToC to address this.
 * The proposed layout uses a single table to present all info in one screen.
 * Comparing minis across years:
 * Current: no solution.
 * Proposed: single table makes comparisons easier.
 * Easy-to-read:
 * The current layout is very easy to read.
 * The proposed layout requires a very wide screen and/or scrunching up the columns and/or shrinking the primary text.

Delta: while I love single tables over ToC layouts (for at-a-glance views), I don't see that either of the current proposals allow most folks to read the info easily. I still strongly prefer the current layout to either of the ones you have put together. However, I am hoping that you will come up with another version that might do the trick. See also: Guild Wiki's drop rate presentation. I can imagine seeing that modified to address the issues of concern to you as well as those that others have raised. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 02:23, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Just for the record, I just tried splitting up the tables via version 4 and version 5, and see if that satisfies anyone. I actually imagine that tables should be split as (1-to-4) then (1-to-3 + 4-5) then (1-to-3 + 4-to-6). For the format Ernie suggested, it's nice that table woud not be extended sideways, but it's already too wide, right? &mdash; δ(x) 02:42, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * [Ha, they tabled it, but too tall for me.] &mdash; δ(x) 02:44, 20 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't like 4 or 5; I think they do a worse job of presenting the information compactly than any of the previous ideas (including the current layout). The big advantage to your idea (for me) is that you can compare across all years; v4 and v5 make that harder rather than easier (my eyeballs have to jump all over the page vs current layout where I can just arrow up and down).


 * Can you take another pass at version 1, given what you've seen @Guild Wiki (and taking into account other people's concerns)? I can see some hybrid of GWiki's plus your looking better. BTW: it's probably worth copying one of the years (to represent year 6) so that you can see how this will look in a few weeks; your v1 is the only one that can be arbitrarily extended (along with the current layout). — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 03:00, 20 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I just made version version 1.2 and version 1.3. Both have duplicating 5th years. If anyone knows how to remove the vertical line in the white column in 1.3, please let me know. &mdash; δ(x) 04:02, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

tonic
Zhed Shadowhoof seen as a tonic. Saw it in trade, it is a purple with the same icon as all the rest of this year's tonics. 74.138.180.238 20:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Disappointing. I have my mini HoM achievements all full, so easy HoM filling isn't why.  Maybe it's the fact that I like deciding the most appropriate mini per character (same desire doesn't exist for tonics).  Maybe because almost all the non-greens are heroes (really, no more creative than this?  No more variety?  Uninspired selection).  Maybe because the only ones that interest me at all are greens, which I have never gotten for bdays.  If they weren't almost all heroes then the novelty of having one hero could be a little fun. Not saying mini's are better than tonics.  Just saying I was excited for mini's, and not excited for these tonics.  Maybe I'll dust off my old Tonic, Lemon Parade, and that will put me in the mood.  --Mooseyfate 16:23, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Contents
Okay.. I don't know how is the best way to bring this up, but why do we have double listings? We have all the miniatures listed on Miniature Page. The sixth year tonics on the tonics page... Why are they here as well? I can see a link to where they are, but I don't see why all of this has to be in two places. Kaisha  17:10, 1 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Miniature has all minis; Tonic all tonics; this page has only those things you can acquire through presents. Personally, I prefer the one-stop shopping that the current setup allows.


 * We probably could set things up so that the information only has to be edited on one of those articles (but, it's only 1x/year that we go through multiple edits; usually, just it's just minor edits...so it's probably extra work for little benefit). — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 17:15, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, that wouldn't be hard with translucent from the other pages to here... It's been done with the gtob henchmen in the guild halls, ha, gvg, etc. mostly because I did them. Kaisha  User Kaisha Sig.png 18:55, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see a problem using transclusion to do that (but I also think there are other articles that need more help). — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 19:08, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't be a big problem, except to change the miniature sections on miniature, which I wouldn't mind seeing. I think each note under each section can go in the notes area. Kaisha  User Kaisha Sig.png 00:05, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Birthday tonics
I believe we should add a picture to them. I know thats not the norm for tonics, but the majority of tonics use the forms of heros. And as hero's have multiple sets of armor, it would be nice to know what you're paying for before you spend a massive ammount buying one. -- Briar    The Spider  13:01, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Good point. If we could get a collection of them, it would help. Do we know if we get multiple armour skins, such as with Destroyers? G R E E N E R  14:41, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen enough to be certain but i believe I saw a Morgahn with an upgraded set of armor. But given that its morgan, kinda hard to tell. -- Briar  User Briar Sig 3.jpg  The Spider  16:46, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure I saw Anton in Brotherhood other day. Think use Gallery function? --[[Image:User_Chieftain_Alex_Chieftain Signature.png]] Chieftain  Alex 16:50, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Well Idk about the hero's yet, Haven't seen enough of them to know for sure, but I do have this-- Briar  User Briar Sig 3.jpg  The Spider  09:42, 30 May 2011 (UTC) [[File:2princes.JPG]]
 * Gallery would likely be the easiest/cleanest method to show the skins. G R E E N E R  01:51, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Can now confirm that tonics do have multiple armor sets. Have a screenie of someone using Vekk wearing Brotherhood armor. -- Briar  User Briar Sig 3.jpg  The Spider  16:21, 6 June 2011 (UTC)