ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Assassin/New Assassin Combo System

You'know, I haven't looked at the numbers, but like what I see. The idea seems to have the ring of truth to it, and I really opens up variations in combo's. The only thing that may not happen is the removal of Shadowsteps - while we should, we won't. Good proposal, all in all, though. --  nuke7     00:29, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks good, would really help assassins except that the skill descriptions would be WAY too long.Prokiller88 03:13, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah the descriptions would be long but perhaps there is an elegant solution for it. i know the system is unlikely to be implemented   in gw1 since its a little late (although i still hope so). but perhaps it can rather give izzy an idea of how combosystems can be more flexible. Carnil
 * Shorthand descriptions, Problem fixed. --  nuke7    [[Image:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg|11px]] 11:17, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * If they are putting assassins in gw2, please use this system. I don't know how many times I have messed up like that. Sure its 12345, but you really have to time it correctly especially on 3 and 4 if your using a kd and a falling attack but thats if your not using an IAS. Prokiller88 03:01, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * So all they have to do to fix Assassins is rebuild the game system from the ground up? Who could have guessed it would be so easy! --71.229.204.25 03:10, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * This system would be perfect, but rebuilding the system doesn't necessarily have to happen. Look at the siege devourer's running skill.  However that works, make it work on every sin attack.  I absolutely love the way those skills look and it would make assassins take skill to play if the attacks are varied enough in their tiers (i.e. make the sin choose: Do I want a KD on this chain or the deep wound?  Will cracked armor and bleeding on the spike help my team more than a blind and crippled warrior?  Do I want tons of +damage or do I want tons of degen afterward?)  Of course this would make certain chains quite diverse (maybe too much, my second example above might be too much available to a single bar...  of course that may make sins more of a midline option since in the second example he's just a melee water ele essentially).  It could be done, it would make the game a TON more balanced...  At this point, it's just apathy that's preventing it from happening, don't even bother with the PR smoke. 75.143.94.174 03:19, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Apathy, plus the difficulty in recoding a whole class, and possibly a good chunk of the game system, while all your coders are working on the sequel. --71.229.204.25 03:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * 71, I think we can all agree that introducing assassins was fanservice, and they were hopelessly broken from day 1. Deleting the class would fix all the problems, but since that isn't happening, this is a viable solution. It truly emphasizes the problem, I think, the solution being completely impossible to do (reworking an entire class). --  nuke7    [[Image:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg|11px]] 10:38, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * @71: i heard many argue like you, but i dont care if its not coming for gw1. what i want to know is, if you think it would make the game better and i personally think it does. i am not a programmer and i dont know how much work it is to be put into practice but i mean all experienced gvg players think that shadowsteps are extremly broken (simply see a/d, e/a spike) and daggersins are nearly never useful in gvg (except for the unblockable SA build). the good thing about the system is, that when ur combo gets through its not more powerful than it is atm but when one skill gets blocked you really have to think what to do next. u still have lots of options and not just stand there and wait for ur leadattack to be reloaded and then missing again. Carnil
 * 71, if you really think that the whole class would need to be recoded: you are wrong. There's no basic mechanics that are being changed, merely skills being added and tweaked.  A single coder could put all these changes into the game within a good week or two of work (bureaucracy removed from the equation).  I mean really, if GW was designed even marginally effectively, a change of +damage on a skill is merely a matter of changing a number in a file that the skill is associated with.  What would be done is A) copy all dagger attack skill files + some misc others B) past all those skill files with updated names C) change the collective groups of skill files to represent the updated descriptions.  How would the engine handle it?  It already keeps track of lead/offhand/duals on the target and on your bar...  Merely read wild_strike_lead.sk or wild_strike_off.sk or wild_strike_dual.sk etc depending on which skill is on the bar and which part of the chain you are on.  Of course I made up these file names, but seriously, it's pathetic how easy this would be to code unless the system was purposefully obfuscated from the stat.  Hell, hire me at ANet for a month and I'd be able to learn what I needed to about the engine and have changes like this working. 75.143.94.174 23:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no system in game that requires chaining skills without any specific place in the chain and doesn't allow a skill to be used twice in the same chain. It would have to be built and integrated, and about two-thirds of all Assassin skills would have to be changed to reflect that, and possibly insignias and base dagger damage too.  That's a pretty big undertaking considering what else is going on.  ANet isn't going to bother fixing Assassins, they're just going to leave them worthless until GW2 comes out. --71.229.204.25 23:14, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I would imagine the recharge times would take care of the "don't use the same skill for the whole chain" simply because none of them should have shorter than about a 8 or 10 second recharge which would make spamming the skill not so good for the purpose of the class. 75.143.94.174 07:40, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I like the idea, but programming a combo system like this would be a nightmare, and balancing those skills would become much harder. Nothing would stop people from taking the best "lead attack version" and doing it over and over.  Don't get me wrong, I think a system like yours would bring a lot more skilled play to the assassin class, but Izzy (and Andrew to some extent) would ruin any fun and balance related to your idea. ~Shard (talk) 12:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * yeah, i also think it's a very nice idea, but also very complicated to implement into the game, both regarding programing and balancing. &mdash;Zerpha[[Image:UserZerpha The Improver sig.png|talk]] The Improver 16:51, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Eh...I honestly can't say I like the concept a whole lot. Isn't this essentially just making assassins into low-armour warriors who get every third attack skill to hit twice? And removing Shadow Steps doesn't ring well with me. That would simply kill the class, in my opinion(How are you supposed to survive the run up to your target?) Seriously, I think they should probably just add more counters to Shadow Stepping into the game. Perhaps make one of the wards(an underpowered one) hurt shadowsteppers in some way and a few monk/ritualist skills hurt it as well. Seriously, most mechanics in the game have some counter -- shadowstepping should too, probably. --Kite 21:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "how are u supposed to survive the run up to your target?" ermmm....THATS an argument...to ur information, derwishes have the same armor class -.- Carnil
 * Ok, I'll admit, I phrased that terribly. The fact is, the problem isn't necessarily surviving, but if a caster sees an assassin running toward him(/her), isn't he(/she) going to snare him(/her) and run? Really, Assassins don't have all that much going for them except shadowsteps, spiking, and the odd Shadow/Deadly Arts build -- and once you take away shadowsteps, the spiking becomes very difficult. They are abused, though, in many instances.
 * (Continued) Dervishes vs. Assassins is a really poor comparison, in my opinion. Assassins are built to spike(usually "from a distance", using shadowsteps), and have skills and insignias(Nightstalker's) based on that. Dervishes are obviously built to be frontliners, and have the enchantments and Avatars(Balthazar, Melandru) capable of fulfilling that role.
 * (Continued) BTW, this suggestion would be a lot easier for me to swallow if the offhand attack got a +1 on its attribute, and the dual attack had a +2 on the attribute, or something like that, so that skill order would at least have some meaning. Just a suggestion. =) --Kite 18:24, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oops, just read the website. >.< You might want to add on the page that the skills get better if they're used as off-hand or dual attacks. I didn't get that, as you can tell. >.> Your concept is a little too powerful, though, in my opinion. I think it could work as a fourth type of dagger attack, but completely replacing Lead, Off-Hand and Dual attacks is a little too much, in my opinion, at least for GW1...and honestly, I don't exactly pray for assassins in GW2, despite playing assassins primarily and having 800 hours on mine. I sort of hope they absorb the non-core professions into the core professions(Dagger Mastery -> Ranger, for example).
 * (Continued)Now that I actually understand, your concept seems a lot more possible. I still disagree with your no-shadowsteps idea(they REALLY need a counter, though -- see my suggestions on Ward Against Foes and Distortion).--Kite 22:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

How would the game be able to tell when a combo is "over"? As it is now, an assassin combo is theoretically infinite. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:190.18.35.17 (talk).
 * Under the current system, characters are "marked" whenever they are hit by a lead, off-hand or dual attack. Under this suggestion, dagger attacks would function in lead attack mode if the character isn't currently "marked" by a lead or off-hand attack, off-hand attack mode if the target is currently "marked" by a lead attack and dual attack mode if the target is currently "marked" by an off-hand attack, since each successful dagger attack overwrites the previous "mark", a successful dual attack would effectively end the combo by making the next attack count as a lead attack (although Impale could still be used between a dual attack and the next lead attack). -- Gordon Ecker 22:09, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I actually really like this idea (and also German dagger attack names are cool), but I'm concerned that firstly it would be considered too major an overhaul, secondly that it might be tricky to implement (i.e. from ANet's side) and thirdly that you would lose the individuality of some skills, so to speak (some skills are just meant to be Dual Attacks etc). Also it could have unforseen consequences once any dagger attack can be paired with any others (consider, for example, Horns of the Ox as an opener, maybe Horns of the Ox -> Falling Spider -> Falling Lotus Strike etc.) and would pretty much end attack chains longer than 3 skills (no more lead -> off-hand -> knockdown -> falling -> dual as the final dual would become a lead attack). On the upside it would allow a lot more flexibility and creativity in Assassin builds. So overall, I like it but I think there are quite a few problems and I certainly can't see it being done... maybe in GW2.
 * As a second point, shadowsteps also have lots of problems, but they are that cool eliminating them would not make anyone happy. Also they keep you on your toes if you never know when someone will pop up behind you.

Lann's Issue
Discuss. --Lann 16:11, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd first like to see, how u would change some of the other skills... deathblossom for example. according to ur system it then would be a spammable dual-attack. what "special" effect would u add there? Carnil

Merge proposal
I've moved Carnil's issue back here and tagged it as a merge proposal. I'm opposed to merging, as it's skill-related. -- Gordon Ecker 08:41, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * What is this merging stuff about? i`ve posted this issue, but i m still not very familiar with this wiki-thing. so plz explain what merging exactly does. thx Carnil

Removing the hit requirement
What about making lead, off-hand and dual attacks "mark" the target even if they are blocked or miss and, if necessary, nerfing the damage on off-hand and dual attacks? -- Gordon Ecker 02:06, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * This seems sensible. Chains that were dependent upon the assassin landing all his attacks would still be crap, but if your chain is set up for more utility, you probably don't need to worry so much. I do think that the "mark" would need to apply before a hit, so that the assassin doesn't get screwed when he gets Clumsiness cast upon him. -- Ezekial Riddle 02:22, 16 September 2008 (UTC)