ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/PvE/Ursan Blessing

Archiving
I suggest that we archive all pre-August 7th update suggestions at ArenaNet:Skill feedback/PvE/Ursan Blessing/Archive 1. -- Gordon Ecker 03:37, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I suggest that we spam Izzy's talk page with "Thank you!". 134.130.4.46 13:54, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Archived and moved as per suggestion.--Fighterdoken 08:09, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Disciple3's Issue
how can u not be happy that gw has 8 numbers in it not 3 now?

Ursan VS 55 Monk?
I dont see the difference between hitting 3 buttons and 8 when the end result is the same. There are many spots in the game where only a few skills are better than many. And if Ursan is overpowered than so is a build where you can beat the Great destroyer by yourself. For that fact any build that alows you to solo farm should be nerfed as well since it allows for more drops and makes gold eassier to get.

I think what everyone is arguing about is just a difference in play styles. If you want to use it use it, if not then don't.

I do not like the new skill attributes for Ursan. I have been playing my warrior for almost a year now after I switched from my elem. I like the ability to use Ursan to tank with other players and have never seen or been part of a Ursan Group. The Ursan skill finally gave a edge to the warrior since he had no large dammage skills. Saying the armor bonus was unfair is like saying Energy storage is an unfair advantage for the elemental.

I will say that the farming fo points to make it better was problematic and it should have had the same benifit no matter what rank you were. The way the skill is set up it should no longer be an elite skill. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:98.198.129.53 (talk).
 * yea but genral 55 theres more counters to 55 then there was 2 ursan also five 55's in a team dont =win? do they --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:92.11.232.222 (talk).


 * First, let me say that i am a ursan user. I have used it for months, since i got enough rank for it to be useable. Even worse, i play a wammo (and by play i mean "since i bought the game one year ago).
 * The changes to UB are not actually "bad" for me. The bless still enables a warrior to "bypass" most of the counters they face in game (i mean, seriously, has anyone tried to play a warrior with only henchman in, let's say, Thirsty River?) making it still one of the best elites a warrior can use in-game, or at least with Prophecies+EotN.
 * In any case, let's compare how the skill is now and before, from the point of view of a warrior:
 * PRO's:
 * Previous UB could be countered by energy denial, and constant fight for energy management was a must. That is not a problem anymore.
 * Previous UB's Ursan Rage was kiteable (PBAoE), meaning that 9 out of 10 times foes would just walk out before you finished activating it. Now, since it's touch range, that is not an issue.
 * Previous UB's Ursan Strike was victim of spells like Reversal of Fortune giving a zero-sum damage. Now the first strike (slashing) will eat the RoD, giving at least some positive damage to be done.
 * CON's:
 * Warriors get a net loss in armor. With the previous version they would go at 116/136, and now they go at 100/100, which means in the practice gaining 4 armor, but losing 16 armor vs physical, when you take in accout that a common shield warrior would be at 96 armor, and 116 armor vs physical under normal circumstances.
 * Damage output from weapons is lost. Lowering all the primary attributes to zero was good; lowering ALL the attributes to zero was overkill, meaning that now Ursan Roar can only compensate for it (which is not really a bad thing from a balance point of view, actually).
 * Health and armor bonuses from blessings are lost. The norn title track no longer stacks with the norn blessing.
 * I must note, in any case, that i have never had the chance to abuse of this skill, so i am not sure how the changes affect Ursan groups. Sadly, it appears that there is no limit for the use of the blessing within a group, so i think we will know the answer soon after the BOOM-HEADSHOT fever settles down.--Fighterdoken 08:46, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Disciple3's Issue -- 04:07, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Epic fail. Provide reasoning. Why is the claim that Ursan killed the economy false? Why should PvE not require skill in a skill-based game? Why should we be forced to grind to r10 norn (and yes, devoting a day of double point weekends - which don't come all that awesome often - is grind) to get pugs? Finally, you've talked to very few people - and very biased people at that. Your friends, your guild, everyone in DoA ad1 - that's not a lot of people at all, and they're all going to say Ursan should stay the way it is so they can keep abusing it. At the very least, you could have branched out to various other districts - but even then, that's still just in-game. Find a forum and make a post, see what the response is... you'll find that all the people who don't like Ursan aren't generally the ones you talk to in-game.
 * You're gonna have to get used to elitism. It's a thing in real life. In fact, you can use it to your advantage - would you take a high school graduate as your doctor? No, you'd want an MD. That's elitism.
 * And no, you're not going to get your money refunded. You paid for what you got. If you don't like what you got, too damn bad. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 14:18, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Epic fail? This coming from the guy who thinks he should work for ArenaNet? That's a serious lack of EIQ and a sad way to talk to people; try speaking with a little less teenager internet gibberish before you solicit yourself as an "expert". You should welcome new people, be surprised that they can find the wiki, and an appropriate place within it to post a response before speaking like that.
 * Unfortunately by Arenanet's own admission more than half the players used Ursan. Removing it might not have been the best move. But of course, now players will have to find new skills to use and when one set works fairly well there will be screaming about "Build Wars!" again. Then you'll be screaming at Izzy, telling him how he should have seen it coming and how much better you are at his job.
 * Of course I do not PuG because the majority of people have your attitude toward others; running into mobs then screaming "fail! - you can't heal fer $#!%" I also do not use Ursan, which I'm sure any staffer could check by reviewing my logs. I played with it for a bit, but didn't find it that exciting after the first hour with it. New skill-bars aren't going to fix that kind of player and your Norn rank means nothing more than you've spent a few hours collecting bounties.
 * Sadly, I agree with giving Ursan a nerf as it was overpowered, but this kind of nerf was overboard. But really, the only economic repercussions will be people who spend their days farming gemstones for tormented weapons to sell to other players. Beyond that, a casual ecto farmer might loose some money. But it's not real money, and dishing out real insults over it is a sad display of ones inability to communicate. Farming gemstones or ectos is still grind though, a point a majority of you skip over while waving the economy banner.
 * The only other thing I care to comment on would be this notion of "talk to people on forums" which I disagree with. Talking to people who are actually playing is a far better source of information than people who have uninstalled the game. My points have always been more focused on the players and less on myself or a small minority of people who yell a lot.
 * I'm sure the policy police will be here soon though to remind us that only certain people can scream "fail" while others cannot rebutt. Ghosst  [[Image:User_Ghosst_Ghosst_Sig.jpg|19px|I Make Dead People]]  •  Talk  • 15:47, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You assume a lot.
 * Regina uses internet lingo all the time. Why shouldn't I? Come to that, what the hell does it matter how I speak so long as I can get the job done?
 * Ursan's now relatively balanced - 50% uptime makes it usable (and the buff to Ursan Rage is kinda nice), but not so that you can rely entirely on one skill to clear every area (at least not quickly).
 * You're right, there's going to be very few economic repercussions from this nerf - because all the damage has been done already, and it's too late to fix it. Your point that it's "fake" money (or whatever you want to call it) is irrelevant, though - you still work to get it (if you call ursanway work, that is), which gives it value.
 * I don't see why you think getting ectos or gemstones is grind, though (and maybe that's why we skip over that point so much; no reason to address what's in our eyes a non-existent point) - as of yesterday, all you had to do was run in and hammer 1 a few times. The drop rate is relatively high, the problem (before ursan came along) was getting the kills. With ectos, it's the other way around - getting the kills has always been easy enough by exploiting the AI, but the drop rate is horrible. Ursan solved that problem by making the kills two or three times faster, thus making it possible to do two or three times as many runs before getting bored. (And that's not even taking into account the solo runs, which probably get just as many ectos.)
 * Not everyone on forums has quit the game - in fact, the vast majority of people who quit no longer pay attention to forums. The point was to get a wider variety of people's opinions than the few dozen you'd get from your guild, friends, and district. (Less than a hundred opinions goes nowhere. Even a thousand people's input is relatively little in the grand scheme of things - the playerbase is measured in the millions.)
 * Believe me, if the policy police bitch at you for that post, I'll bitch right back at them. You have just as much a right to tell me I fail as I do to tell the guy above that he fails, regardless of whether either of us are right.
 * -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 16:21, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Before ursan nerf: You needed only 1 skill to beat every area in the game.
 * After ursan nerf: You actually have to be decent now and have a full skill bar.
 * That's a fix, and there's nothing wrong with it. There are far more efficient ways to do damage than by using Ursan, go find some. 72.253.129.142 22:05, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

While I am up in the air about the nerf...I am upset about one aspect..the fact that attributes are brought to zero during the blessing which totally negates the fact that I am a melee profession...it should give an advantage armor and health wise to melee professions as it had in the past and maybe they could have nerfed its damage output and time its up...as a melee character there is no longer an advantage to having stonger armor and having effective "in between" hits while using this blessing..why should a monk be using ursan anyway? should melee professions take the damage and still be able to give it out between ursan strikes? I dont know guys.... I have already reacted and built a build that continues to enable me to vanquish alone... so i wont miss it soo much but, just food for thought on why did they take away the point of being melee with this skill?24.8.68.157 23:39, 8 August 2008 (UTC)Euclid

The skill change sucks and I hate it. I want it back to the way it was before. Please revert! --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:96.18.21.226 (talk).

in regards to euclid- i think that was this balance did was ensure equality over all professions, and it did a good job at doing that. It is really annoying not doing any damage with your weapon, but now there will be abslutely no discrimation against professions for ursan groups. A mesmer is just as viable as a warrior; in fact, profession variety will now be needed more as you can not maintain this skill permanently anymore. While it does feel unfair that now being a warrior provides no advantage with being an ursan, consider the fact that this simply leveled the playing field. Nalana  Talk  00:14, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Warriors have Stonefist Insignia, so they're still better. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 00:18, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yea, but for using such bonus they have to sacrifice part of their normal armor bonus vs physical damage (16), so is still "balanced" when compared to other classes.--Fighterdoken 00:30, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

And ranger's still have their +vs elemental dmg, which in elemental high areas people will take them over any other class. Honestly, now that the update has been out for two days now the change is looking worse and worse. People are still demanding R10 for health bonus, W/R/P for anything(in ranger case, see above which is understandible, UW speedrun still requires Ursan and almost all of them fail at their job and even those that finally got use their old builds are failing completely at them since they've been out of work for so long. Although I hate ursanway, the one thing keeping me from saying the pre-nerf setting was better overall is that FoW HM can still be steamrolled over without Ursan.  Remove that and I might just have to join in calling for a revert.  I hate the thought of saying those words, but with stuff getting worse now it's starting to look better and better. At least PvP still keeps me entertained for the time being.--Masato 03:08, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Do rangers still keep the +elemental from their armor? I ran some tests on my warrior just to check the +physical (against Earth Elementals in hard mode, with clean 1k armor and without shield) and there was no difference between going ursan with armor on, and going ursan naked (meaning, i was still getting hit by minimum 14 regardless, unless i missed something and should have checked for average/maximum?). I would just guess that if the bonus for physical on warrior's armor doesn't work, neither does the elemental one from rangers, but don't have one to test it.--Fighterdoken 05:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I totally agree with most of what you're saying.
 * It was great to be able to go as whatever character you wanted and still get a group without any hassle, where even pugs had mostly everything synched. Take this for eg. Since they nerfed splinter weapon I have had NO chance at all on finding a group with my ritualist to do Slaver's Exile because no one wants a ritualist there anymore, then came the Ursanway...
 * Yey, I can finally join a group as Ursan and me beeing ritualist was no longer a hinder.
 * This is what happens when skills are beeing nerfed, some classes get totally left out and you find yourself doing elite dungeons with heroes and henchmen, taking 3 times longer and with half the percentage of success if sometimes any at all...
 * When it comes to the idea of adding more content, like new areas, I dont think you should expect anything spectacular soon as GW2 is underway. You can clearly see on events, updates and the lack of attention that GW1 is put on the shelf as they are concentrating on GW2. This is both good and bad.
 * It's very bad because you kinda lose interest when GW1 is either beeing stomped to the ground of simply left behind, this loss of interest might turn players attention towards other online games and the interest for GW2 fades...
 * It's good because the extra time spent on GW2 will probably/hopefully make it better and better and even thought it's quite annoying to know that you bought a game that they will definitely NOT show as much attention to when GW2 comes you, you can expect massive improvements in the sequal.
 * All in all I still say kudos to the GW team for launching a free-to-play online game with great stories and imaginative graphics.


 * Thank you - Nox Coma 19:00, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Let's just hope they learned how to solve class/character discrimination in high end areas for GW2. It's not Ursan.. or consumables.. or non-profession pve-only skills.  It should follow the profession & attribute system. Cameronl | talk 20:52, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Armond Warblade: You, my friend, are never going to be in Anet. Period .People like you shouldn't even be on wiki.guildwars.com.-- ITAMAR     15:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Did you even read my first post at the top of this section? People tell me that sort of thing all the time. I think like two of them have ever bothered to explain why, and they didn't seem to understand the proper usage of logic. Care to break the trend? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 19:22, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I wrote it after I had read your (disgusting) response to someone who have done you no harm and just wanted to share us with his/her opinion. I don't mean what I wrote, but I bet that the other people (I didn't read what the other people wrote to you) felt the same. Basically you acted like a jerk, that's all there's to it. Again, I'm taking back my words. -- ITAMAR     21:09, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It's "disgusting" to point out bad logic and explain how to make it better? The only thing I'm guilty of in my original post is being a hardass. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 17:16, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi all, I have been playing GW for 2+ years. Most of it PvE. I play the game as entertainment, to relax and have FUN! I have a life in the real world. I don't know about yours but mine has all of the stress etc. that I need. I PLAY for enjoyment so when I don't feel like getting together with other players for some stress related KILLING and Maiming it WAS nice to go URSAN. I use it and other skills when I CHOOSE too. I "had" the option to choose now that and others are gone. I don't think nurfing skills etc. is the answer. It should be up to us, the players to decide how hard or easy we want our challenge to be. Again let me say, this is PvE. As far as PvP goes it's different. In PvP there should be SOME basic rules. I leave that up to you PvP folks. As far as PvE. That is, or was my choice. ARENANET.. I would like it back. You had something GREAT in GW but as I see how much you have taken away with the updates, "Improvements" etc. I have to say I will hold off SPENDING my $$$ on GW-2 until I see how far you go "Improving" GW to death. You do reach a point where the only "updates" that are needed are Op/Sys related not game skill related. I don't know where the whole Fair, Equal, Balance thing started but I don't want that decision made for me. Not in PvE anyway.

As far as chucking the game for WoW, I'm not there......yet. Thanks DataSpy1 18:45, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You play for your own enjoyment - at the expense of everyone else's.
 * Well, that's basically what you said.
 * -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 17:16, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Go to WoW please yes. I was playing WoW for 2 years, then (recently) found out about GW and after some time playing only thing i didn't liked was "Ursan Blessing" that was turning GW in a multiplayer action/fighter/brawling grinding game, though it was supposed to be a mmoRPG. Both are fine games but very different. WoW focuses mainly on grinding, competition and economy (which funnily is what U.B. and Ursan groups were about), GW focuses mainly on challenge, cooperation and creativity. Now if you want an easier than normal mode (U.B.) so you can grind effectively, want to wear the best-looking/most-expensive armor in the game just to show off, and you care about the price of your ectos, yes you 're playing the wrong game imo, simply cause WoW does all these better. Eth 10:00, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed, though the challenge and cooperation in GW are dead and have been since Nightfall - in both PvE and PvP (there's no challenge or cooperation in facerolling). The creativity has been restricted to figuring out the most broken build, which gets done once, at which point it's posted on PvX.
 * Not saying WoW's a great game, though - it's not.
 * -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 17:16, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Man i so much hate this skill that if the Anet developer that came up with the idea, was right in front on me now, i would show him another skill... Anti-Ursan's Rage. I do all the other hero handbook quests in HM with my heroes/henchies, but Blood washes Blood cause the stupid skill removes the enchants from you. Seriously if there is anything like this crap in GW2 the whole game will go to the trash bin right after i learn about it. Eth 20:26, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Just a Suggestion
Perhaps Arena-net could make it so that Ursan's current form is kept to non-EoTN areas, which would keep farming of the FoW/DoA impossible with a full ursan set-up. I mean HM dungeons can be difficult for some professions and thus they should give Ursan Blessing a more boosted damage ratio in EoTN, perhaps turning Ursan Force into a stance to negate Mantra usage. I think this would allow to keep blessings in use in the appropriate areas. This is not a complaint against the nerf however, as I have to be more balanced, and thus have found a great build which is something to be thankful for. :) ( If this is against any policies don't feel bad deleting ). -- Chieftain  Alex 19:23, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Feedback on Ursan Blessing Update - a blessing or a curse
Let's talk about the changes Arenet made to ursan in the last update.

At the first glance, it looks like a well thought effort to balance overpowered ursan skill. Let’s talk about the three main changes by ignoring the slashing dmg and the elite form update:

1. Reset health, armor and attributes:

It reduces class discrimination due to different benefits from the primary attribute and different AR, therefore giving player the equal chance of participating in a farming group.

2. In addition to the enchantment removal, now the activation of the skill also removes shouts and stances – why? Perhaps to the benefit of the those who don’t know how to use stance/shout or to reduce the benefit of professions that have stance/shouts advantage through primary attribute (warrior, ranger and paragon) – From build point of view – it removed a lot of fun ursan build – but it’s understandable from the balancing point of view for ursans with different professions - despite the fact that the most commonly used stance are mesmer inspiration stances which are available to all professions anyway.

3. 60 seconds bear form and 60 seconds recharge – this is most puzzling part – At first glance – who would use ursan form as elite skill if you could easily drop out of the form in the middle of a battle? Now let’s look at Arenet’s explanation – to enable a tactical play – hmm, right, tactical: here are the some common strategies that would fall into tactical category:

a. Split the group in two, and use ursan form in turn;

b. Get a damage-focus build while you are not in ursan form – great, let’s all go secondary warrior or assassin for the front line ursan.

c. Let’s go back and study the skills more carefully and utilize Air of superiority, Assassin’s promise and Oath shot to recharge ursan instantly. Very smart and tactical – bravo! let’s all go Mesmer secondary and mimic all the way– but wait – most likely the assassin and ranger ursan will be in favor in an ursan team, which cannot be in line with Arenet’s intention of a ursan that’s unbiased for all professions – what does that mean? These skills will get nerfed and so these smart tactical solutions will get killed

Well, how many ursan fan would go through these constraints and keep playing ursan – probably few – and after the next update when assassin’s promise and oath shot possibly get nerfed (my speculation) – probably none.

In other words – what Arenet started to reduce ursan’s AoE power and balance ursan player with different profession – a good and acceptable intention – ended up with an overkill.

Before you smart player all start to throw comments with an impact of a nuclear bomb at me, please just be patient and finish the following sections where I will express my personal view towards some of the common arguments against ursan blessing: View Nr. 1: “Ursan blessing is rediculously overpowered”

Let’s be honest, no matter whether you are an ursan fan or not – you won’t argue with the fact that it’s obviously overpowered. However, it’s not the only skill that’s overpowered in the game

Shadow form + deadly paradox is ridiculously overpowered – it made underworld look like a walk in the park. Protective spirit is overpowered – it is the basis of 55 monk, 600 monk, 330 Ele and made the great destroyer mission and CoF dungeon looks like a joke

Also, ursan blessing is common and available to all profession - the biggest problem it had - in my view - is the selection bias of ursan player based on their profession. In a way, it created some difference among different ursan player - warrior, paragon ursan has best armor, while ele, necro barely has energy problem etc. I totally understand it was unfair to some other ursan player that wont be picked up due to their profession in cerntain elite areas,and I think resetting primary attribute, hard code HP and armor bonus is a smart move from Arenet. But the current update is clearly an overkill.

View Nr. 2: “Ursan blessing ruins the economy”

When ppl talk about ursan destroys economy – it refers to the value of rare items that went down – First of all, this argument is kinda weak - given ursan blessing is a common skill and any deflation or inflation shouldnt disadvantage any player unless he/she doesnt have EoN expansion. Second of all, let’s take about the two most common rare items:

ectoplasm (UW), gem set (DoA)

Let’s face it

a. The main driver of the deflation of ectos is not ursan – it’s the overpowered shadow form – especially before the 50% dmg reduction. Even in a ultra-speed uw clear group – the poor ursans mostly only get one ecto from the end chest – E/A and A/me are the ones getting most ectos.

b. The main driver of the deflation of gem sets is ursan – no question of that – but how often can you complete a successful full run in some pick-up-group without failing? Rarely. It is frustrating to use the first conset and then the group got wiped, or some ursan & monk left. It’s not like what some of you might think – find 5 10/8 ursan and 3 HB – enter DoA – close your eyes and hit 1-2-3-1-2-3 – and get chest reward – it requires a lot of team work – especially in Hard Mode.

Ursan blessing is a skill that allows more player to experience some of the elite missions - if anything - it brings the economy to a balance - both inflation or deflation could destroy the economy - I often wonder - is it in player's interest to make some of the elite missions only accessible to a small group of experienced people and make the price of some rare item so unaffordable to most other player? Not all player have the luxury of time and opportunity to be in a big guild that have well organised farming team - some of us will have to be in a hopefully experienced pick-up group.

View Nr.3. “Ursan is for retard, my 8 year old son can play it”

hmm, it's a funny statement - but wait a minute - Who are you to make a judgement about other player based on the one elite skill they choose? What makes you such a superior player to tell other ppl how to play, and how dare you to make such an insulting comment on all ursan player? Let's not go down the path discussing how different a good ursan player can be comparing to a new ursan player with regards to skill, armor, weapon selection etc. Just open your mind a little bit: People choose different ways to play for different reasons. Remeber, no matter how much emphasis Guild war has on PVP, this is a multiplayer RPG game - and what happens with an RPG game? - ppl always have one favorate charater to play - the problem is that in many mission area you usually will have to play some specific profession in order to get involved. Ursan Blessing represents a nice way to overcome the problem. Player can play their favorate character in a way they like in most situations - for example: you favourate char is an ele but you wanna go melee? fine - put on the right insignia for armor bonus and go ursan. Ursan blessing offered a degree of freedom that overcomes the boundry of profession and united people with different professions that wouldnt have teamed up otherwise.

View Nr. 4: “Ursan blessing disadvantages player that dont want to play ursan”

Well, yea, one might answer: if you dont wanna play ursan - then dont play it. But wait a second, that's not a fair answer. This complaint is a actually a fair one - I have seen player rejected in a party because they dont wanna play ursan or their norn rank is too low. It is a problem - created by us all - wanting to play the game in a way we are used to and unwilling to try something new - Frankly, I dont have a perfect solution. Arenet has to find a way to balance a team - I would suggest the limitation of the number of ursan player in a party. But again, Overkilling ursan is clearly not a fair way to solve this problem - it just creates another one.

Now let’s come back and see what happens after the update in August 08: Did any of the problem get solved?

Ultra speed uw runs survives – let’s get some perma assassin & ss/foc necros and enjoy the buffed Shadow form => ah, the run is even easier – ecto price continues to stay low – well done, problem solved

DoA – well, yea there is no more ursan group – but wait a minute, there is no group at all. No problem, let’s go ranger trapping veil, 600 monk fundry and city. But who is up for Mallyx? just waiting for 2 hours and see if you are lucky.

And let me guess what’s probably going to happen in the next few updates:

Hmm, let’s kill ursan completely – let’s make the skill recharge effect of oath shot, Assassin’s promise and air of superiority invalid for ursan blessing. At this stage – why bother having that skill at all? You might as well remove it from the skill list – let’s all go play A/E, E/A or HB monks.

Hmm, what about those new player that spent hours and hours working on norn rank? Sorry - you are in the wrong game at the wrong time ... live with it.

I am a ursan fan - because it offers me freedom to play something else that would be otherwise restricted to my favoruate character’s profession and it makes it easier to unite different player with different professions. I am not object to some of the changes that reduce ursan's power - but overkilling it just harmed some of the basic RPG game principle. How can a player enjoy a game when any time his favourate char could no longer be able to participate some of the elite missions because of some skill nerf? It's a game where we are supposed to free ourselves and have fun, isn't it?

79.75.87.186 02:26, 16 August 2008 (UTC) Mushin 15 Aug 08

These still should have been the changes

-Keep the new armor, health and attribute. Their better than the old version. -Return the energy degen, but give it like -3 or and fix the old zealous bug or just make it -4 out right. Low energy classes-get high energy sets. -Recharge time back to 30 or 45. Make it 2 second cast like all the other non pve only forms. add on easily interupt. -Keep the 1 touch, 1 dmg to Strike. That should have been done long ago. Down the dmg so that it's still not so easy to kill something with 6 people spamming it*tested, takes like 5 seconds longer against most enemies in DoA* -Keep the touch range for Rage. Just like the range fix for cyclone axe this was long overdue. Keep the dmg the same, but make the knockdown only affect foes above/below 50% health. -Nothing can be done to Roar unless you make the Weakness only affect those foes affected by another condition. -Leave the last skill alone, it's fine.

But then remember I'm kinda no longer caring about UB, just throwing things out there.--Masato 15:00, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, for one, air of Superiority can't recharge Ursan cause its an effect, other than DP and morale Ursan removes all effects Excluding hexes. Yes, I think that the idiot who thought of Oath shot usage is a NOOB for bringing back gay ursan. Bit overpowered, Hhm...Yes really. Assassins promis ends to fast for an ursan. Plus, AP only recharges skillz on your bar.btw...you should'nt joke about the SF, its harder than you think. same for 55's. 70.121.168.43 00:45, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes it can. Ursan Blessing only strips buffs when you activate it. Air of Superiority is activated after Ursan Blessing ends. -- Gordon Ecker 23:49, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Talk AFTER the update
I wasn't an ursan fan before, till I visit the ToA. Many of players requesting Ursans and HB for UW. Any other classes will mostly be rejected.

It takes a while until I decide to get finished the Norn R10. The next day after I achieved it, the power seems to be nerfed. I was pissed off for the Max benefit of Ursan for me... BUT... I don't blame it. Just my Bad luck.

The armor class and HP is for all class the same, which I see it as an advantage for me (Since I am ele), No more dropping in energy is also a good thing. All enchanchment and so on keeps away is also ok. But about just 1 minute ursan then 1 minute recharge time.... I think this might be a problem for Ursan fans. I know that ursan has been overpowered before, but this has gone a little too far.

My Suggested Skill Info -

-

With this, bear form can be easily interupted but they can use the next ursan blessing soon, giving them another chance to do it. Conget 10:30, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Usually by the time you trigger blessing, their interupts are used up. Hell I always used a random attack skill in Veil BEFORE using blessing to use up their interupt.

Even if it was changed again, it wouldn't stop the new discrimation against all classes but Ranger primary. The ele armor bonus is just to nice looking, even though in some areas like UW(going via speedway) the ursan should never come in contact with any elemental dmg save for the Terrorwebs in the Forgotten Vale and a few Coldfires that patrol to close. In terms of just classes, Pre-Change was better. At least it allowed all classes a fair shot, not to keep it up contiously you NEED to be a ranger and have Oath Shot. Don't care one way or the other about UB anymore, my focus on now on the murder their doing to GvG--Masato 14:45, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I feel like the problem of discrimnation is more related to people unwilling or unable to evaluate the potential of other pve-only skills, and skills in general. I can tell you by experience that even if you insta-kill a foe in front of someone who has ctr-clicked every little action he made for one minute just to scratch that foe, in the better case he dont trust you because wiki dont tell anything about it, and in the worst case he rage quit. I have comme to my stupid build like the 175dps one not just because I enjoy it, but because pve players prefer to equip a skill that deal 50dmgs for 15 energy when an enchant strip that cost 5 energy would allow your grp to kill the protected foe in 5 secondes instead of 2 minutes. Same goes with snares and people who prefer to spend 50 energy protecting a tank when you just have to snare some aaxtes that will never get in melee range of anything. And since snares does not require you to prepare traps and what not during 1 minute, I can tell you that balanced grps, the kind with a silver trim on their cape if you see what I mean, go faster than ursans, because all of sudden they got 2 more slots open (tanks are no more mandatory) for some serious nuking. Yseron - 90.28.82.33 19:20, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Silver Trim has nothing to do with PvE, it's just a status symbol. Hell, just because someone was in Rwar with gold trim doesn't mean they can PvE worth a crap. I've never really went with a balanced group that had any kind of issue while your attempting to explain, minus one or two complete failure players. Since when is it okay for the monk to bring touch range heals for UW HM AND run up while there are aatxes still not dead? <--reason why I RARELY pug PvE anymore.

Well not all the other PvE skills are decent enough for elite areas. You've got Either Nightmare and Cry of Pain which are G.O.D. in the right hands, but then you've got other craps like Eternal Aura which is only good for Avatar Dervs who want their avatar up 100% of the time.--Masato 22:30, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I dont remember having mentioning touche range healing. Nowhere. And silver trim has to do with people that know what's a snare. You will answer me that pve players too. I will answer you that 9 times out of 10, they dont bring one. Yseron - 90.28.75.133 23:49, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * DoA never had quality of fow or uw. The last nerf somehow killed the interest in DoA. Yes you can use other skills to play there but people are not interested anymore and there are not enough people to find a decent group. 87.189.199.207 09:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Once again, Silver Trim has NOTHING to do with PVE. It says you know wtf to do in PVP. If you can't understand this then just drop it because I'm not gonna keep explaining what trim on capes means. Yes people won't bring snares all to often, but if your team has enough braincells to keep enemies from attacking your backliners and enough firepower to kill a mob quickly you won't need snares. Hence why their not that popular for PvE. Hell, I didn't even mention snares before so I don't know where you pulled it from. At least when I mentioned healing range it came from experence watching nub monks. Dude I seriously think you need to learn the differences between PvE and PvP then come back. Because right now you have no ground to stand on.--Masato 20:22, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It doesn't even mean that. It just means that at least 8 people who were in your guild during the last tournament season know what to do in PvP. A guild could have 8 hardcore PvP players and 92 of their casual friends. A guild could break up after the tournament and the leader could auction off leadership. -- Gordon Ecker 01:48, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Disciple3's Issue -- 04:07, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Ridiculous

Saying that ursan ruined the economy of Guild Wars is like saying the Titanic had too many lifeboats, simply is false. As for all the elitists on this webpage commenting these are not the feeling of the majority of players in pve in my environment(guild, friends, DoA ad1) and the latest nerf has rendered the skill relatively useless in elite and other areas. Although I like to believe the game should be more skill based I also think it is pointless at this time in the game as far as Guild Wars goes because the game is simply outdated. I've had the game since it was released, played almost 7000 hours and coming from me this was the last straw with "skill balancing". All my friends now play WoW or just gave up this game at some point almost exclusively to these balances. What does Anet have to say to people who went out and bought their product so they could do these elite areas with that skill and finally be able to quickly find groups without wasting their ENTIRE night/day/ life or whatever trying to find a group and then actually successfully completing one of these areas. For once you could use whatever character you liked as long as you had the title,(and the title is too much grind? I turned in a dungeon book NM and it took one day of the double point weekend to max it out) no class discrimination, if its not reverted we are back to monk ele warrior teams in Domain of Anguish as long as Anet appropriately nerfs Cryway as its only fair. Right now I feel like asking Anet to refund me half of the money I spent on EoTN because frankly thats the best thing you got out of it as the rest of it wasn't very impressive. Easy to say not many of these people will be buying their games anymore with this kind of crap going down. If you want a real solution to the problem why not add more content to the game, more elite areas and items to get with different types of objectives and mission areas where ursan can't be used effectively. is it a pve- only skill or not? pve is about getting cool looking shit not skill and mashing buttons 1-8 for 3 times as long certainly seems more boring to me than hitting 1 2 3 for 1 hour

thanks ~

Ursan Blessing Update 2: The Issue about Skill Rebalancing
My previous feedback was about how inappropriate and disappointing the recent ursan update was - the developer wanted to eliminate the class discrimination created around ursan - a good intention with a poor execution - it kills the ursan blessin without solving the class discrimination problem. Not only that many player lost interests in ursan as an elite - it also raises big confusion with regards to the skill balancing approach by the develop team and how they affected the game style for many player.

In the following section, I want to explore the issue with "skill rebalancing" at a more general level and propose a solution to the ursan blessing skill.

While no one would argue about the fact that ursan is overpowered - a fact known since the launch of EoN - here are two interesting questions: i) why did it take so long for develop team to nerf it? ii) Ursan's blessing got nerfed while shadow form got buffed - why are the two overpowered skills treated differently?

Before attempting to answer these two questions, let's ask ourselves:

WHEN SHOULD A SKILL BE REBALANCED?

Since this question is related both to pve and pvp, for the time-being, let's just focus on the skill rebalancing for "pve" skill.

Here is my view:

For a pve skill which is available to all professions - "overpower" alone is not a reason enough for a skill rebalancing ("nerf"). An "overpower"ed skill becomes a candidate for rebalancing once it creates some sort of class discrimination.

And what's a class discrimination?

I think there might be two possible definitions:

a) when a skill enables some profession(s) to farm more efficiently than others

or/and

b) when a skill requirement prevents some profession from participating a farming group

Why did "energized wind" for ranger/beast mastery got nerfed last year? => because of its high efficiency combined with ranger trapping - either in place like Underworld or in pvp. Why didnt protective spirit get nerfed? because although it is widely used as a basis for some specific farming builds - those farming builds are usually a solo or duo team build and are mostly only suitable for a particular area therefore has a limited usage (eg. 55, 600 monk)

Note there is not clear line to separate "overpower" and "class discrimination". For example: one would question why would arenet allow 600/smite or 55/ss to duo UW while not allowing duo ranger trapping in uw? - the problem for the high efficiency of energized wind in pvp could have easily be solved by giving a pve and pvp version of the skill.

In case of ursan blessing, it didn't seem to bother the develop team with the fact that the skill is overpowered in pve, but when they realized the class discrimination the skill created over the time, it appeared on their agenda for skill rebalancing.

In my previous writing "Ursan blessing Update - A Blessing or A Curse", I pointed out that while some of the changes were effective and well thought to reduce class discrimination, the update of "60 seconds active time and 60 seconds recharge" simply eliminated it as a choice for most player as a team build - as a consequence - player started to try other team builds with even more class discrimination (such as Cryway in DoA)

Let's face it - the problem of class discrimination will alway exist - no matter how hard you try - rational player would always go for the most efficient team build to achieve the goal - and like it or not - the most efficient team build in some elite areas will not be a balanced one. It's simply a result of human nature - just as discrimination existed thousand years ago, and it still exists today in real life.

As a game developer - there is nothing wrong trying to reduce the class discrimination in game - but you have to realize - you will not be able to achieve it in a perfect way - unless you make all classes the same (at which point the game will become meaningless too)

IS URSAN BLESSING A CAUSE OR A POTENTIAL SOLUTION TO THE CLASS DISCRIMINATION PROBLEM?

Yes, Ursan blessing has created some class discrimination since its birth - both among ursan play with different primary professions as well as among ursan- and non-ursan player. But if you think about it, Ursan blessing would actually be one potential solution - especially with the update that resets attributes to zero and fix hp and armor - it at least gives all classes a fair chance to participate in elite areas - and by limiting the number of ursan player in a team - 3-4 for example - it will give player that dont want to play ursan a fair chance to participate in farming too. What needs to be done, is to reverse the change made on 60 seconds skill active time, 60 seconds recharge, add back the energy degen effect and set a limit of ursan user based on max party size.

Now let's come back to the two questions I raised before. I think I have answered the first question. But frankly - I dont have an answer to the second one - But I hope my trivial contribution could open up a bit more discussion among player and developer - and look at this whole issue from a different perspective. Thank you vey much for your patience.

79.72.22.208 23:19, 28 August 2008 (UTC) Mushin


 * "energized wind for ranger/beast mastery got nerfed last year? => because of its high efficiency combined with ranger trapping" ... It got nerfed because of Sway teams in PvP that was overpowered when mixed with many 25 energy skills like OoA and RaO. However, with the current pve/pvp skill split it could be possible for energized wind to be buffed for pve again. OblivionDanny 00:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * tl;dr at "skills shouldn't be nerfed just because they're overpowered". -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 16:02, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

0_0* Why did "energized wind" for ranger/beast mastery got nerfed last year? => because of its high efficiency combined with ranger trapping* rofl wrong u are the weakest link good bye--92.12.102.208 04:45, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

- Thank OblivionDanny for pointing out my inaccurate comment with regards to "Energzing Wind" - yes, it got nerfed mainly due to its usage in PvP - apologize for that.

To: 92.12.102.208, repeating other player's opinion doesnt make you look smarter, and denying other's writing based on one single flaw makes me wonder how narrow-minded you are - especially for someone that is neither capable of comprehending the description of "flashing blades" nor able to deal with it (Yes, I checked your other comments on the talk page)

To Armond Warblade: it's strange to hear "tl:dr" from someone that wrote aweful a lot critizing other ppl - is it perhaps because of your obvious "short man's complex" - too short to stand anything long?

Mushin 21:20, 3 September 2008 (UTC) Mushin


 * That were an easy way of saying "I seriously disagree with your comment here, and everything following is based off that comment, so I'm going to be lazy and not read it." -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 23:18, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

"... everything following is based off that comment ...." you assume a lot (quoting the first sentence of your own comment to ghost on 8 August 2008) Mushin

1) this has nothing to do with flashing blades 2) keep on topic 3) if u do get the main reson of nerf wrong and use it as evidence in suport ursan i will be a asshat good bye ^ ^--92.10.127.103 10:22, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

"...use it as evidence in suport ursan..." - really? No wonder you got confused with "flashing blades" - it's just too complicated for you. Mushin 22:13, 10 September 2008 (UTC) Mushin

79.72.7.173 (Mushin)'s Issue
Is that even possible, from a technical standpoint? -- Armond Warblade 23:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * i suppose it would be a buttload of work for anet, but they wouldn't be able to make a game like guild wars if that was too much. - Y0_ ich_halt  [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 14:34, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

IoI - of course it's possible - and it's not difficult at all. In the current system - whenever player enters a new explorable area, the program checks the skill bar of the player: if you have more than one elite skill equipped (eg: you just capped another elite skill), the one on the far right of your skill bar will stay and the other elites will be removed. Assuming Arenet sets the max ursan size = 4: each time the party enters a new explorable area, the program should check player's skill bar in order (eg: from top to bottom) and the 5th, 6th, .. ursan player's elite skill should be removed. From programming point of view: they just need to add another "if" conditional check on the skill bar in the code in addition to the current "one elite skill" limit.

But this is just from technical point of view - doesn't mean arenet will do it since they might have other priorities.

Mushin 19:47, 4 September 2008 (UTC) Mushin
 * whether it would be that easy to implement could only be answered by a developer. it might just as well be that every elite skill adds 1 to a counter which leads to elimination to any other elite if it goes over 1. also it's not said that the program can put several players' skill bars into relation, it's more likely each of them is checked seperately (if it's a check system anyway). that's not just one if-condition. again, it would be possible of course, but it's most likely work anet will never care to do for a non-enduring profit like guild wars. - Y0_ ich_halt  [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 19:59, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Fair point: whether it's just one "if-condition" or a multiple one - it's really not a question of ability, but willingness. Mushin 20:37, 4 September 2008 (UTC) Mushin
 * yup, and anet is certainly not willing xD - Y0_ ich_halt  [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 20:53, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Its definatly possible from a technical standpoint, but pheasible, I'm not too sure. It depends on what sort of data type AN uses to keep track of players skills bars. I wold assume its some sort of array of objects. The problem is that the server (not the client) would have to read through all skill bars of every party that enters a PVE area, then increment a counter and pass the count to an if statement. Thats at least one for loop holding a statement accessing an array and incrementing a counter, and then an additional if/else statement for every party. While that might seem extremely minor for one party, (probably a 10th of a second, to pull a number out of my head), that adds up fast when you multiply it by every party on the server. The strain might be a bit too much. They could instead have the server send a command to the client, and ask for the clients to do a read through of the skills, but that would probably be even slower based on the fluxuation of latency. Its a fairly good idea, and might work, but would depend greatly on the server setup. Kumlekar the Slayer - 71.84.240.55 05:50, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

If I'm leading a party, why should I be restricted in what I want to take in said party? While we're at it, let's restrict GvG teams to no more than 2 warriors, 1 ranger, and 2 monks, with no rits or mesmers allowed. 66.75.136.251 02:14, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

My Issue
Personally, I don't have an issue. I don't really mind the nerf. It gives everyone a chance to play with everyone else. However. You have effectivily removed the norn forms from play now. Who uses Volfn? Raven? Now very few people use Ursan either. Ursan didn't really need a nerf. The others needed a buff. I can't give exact numbers, but buff the current Ursan to halfway between what it was and what it is now. Then raise the other norn forms to about the same, but slighly over. Give Ursan a 30 second recharge. But give the other two a 20 second recharge. this keeps All the forms in play, and everyone is happy. 213.78.6.200 13:06, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Ectos are never going to rise above 5k again because of Ursan, and you don't think it needed a nerf? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 19:54, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

"...Ectos are never going to rise above 5k again because of Ursan, and you don't think it needed a nerf..." Although I respectfully disagree with the view "ursan kills the economy" in general - let's just assume you are right - So you are implying nerfing ursan is the solution to the problem - can anyone please tell Mr. Warblade how much ecto is trading at after the ursan-nerf? I have trouble doing so because i am really busy rolling on the floor laughing Mushin 22:13, 10 September 2008 (UTC) Mushin


 * Buffing other PvE only skills is not a viable way to fix overpowered skills. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 22:08, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If you have a suggestion then just use the form and make one yourself. (Terra Xin 22:13, 9 September 2008 (UTC))


 * A lot of us have done so. The rest of us can't be arsed because it's not going to be read anyway. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 22:28, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Go here and here please. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 00:02, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Nerfed Ursan Blessing is still one of the more powerful PvE skills out there. Funny how a nerf can turn people away from a skill, even though it's still a pretty viable skill. 145.94.74.23 08:26, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Meh, it's just that people have moved on to complete invincibility rather than just a great increase of armor. Dark <font color="Black">Morphon <font color="Black"> (contribs)  13:50, 25 March 2009 (UTC)