ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Necromancer/Soul Reaping

Shard's Discussion
Started topic. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 09:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree completely. Now that you can't gain energy off pets or use them as corpses, it's not a sure thing. Having a ton of minions requires a lot of deaths, which means your team is doing very well even if one of the characters (the Necromancer) is only effective after all these deaths. Which build in GvG abuses Soul Reaping or even uses a Necro these days? --TimeToGetIntense 14:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * To be fair, GvG was never really the problem. It's in HA, where AoE rules king (you either run out of it and let them control where you are, or die), that the problem is largest. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 18:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Balancing around HA is dumb because it will never improve no matter what. The format is just bad, end of story. --TimeToGetIntense 23:14, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Teams run spiritway in GvG too. Aside from guilds that are just better than us, this is pretty much the only thing that kills us.  Also, you CAN gain energy from pets, you just can't turn them into minions.  Soul Reaping would be fine if it reaped souls and not bones.  It's more of a problem in HA, but it exists in GvG too. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 00:02, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * why would you take away then energy gain from minions?? The primary attribute is there because of the minions... 24.141.45.72 01:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * How do you know? Did you create the profession?  I'm sorry but I'm going to push for this until it is changed because it's probably the single most broken concept in the game. Spiritway abuses it way too much. For the twentieth time, you can lower minion costs to make the MM pve builds happy. I don't want to keep seeing trashy spiritway players beat good teams. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 03:01, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Umm channel tank + heal party ftw? 24.141.45.72 03:06, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree completely and taking away energy gain from minions is like taking away a paragons ability to gain energy from shouts. Necros need for every single minion (skill) an unexploited corpse and also every single animate minion skill has 3 seconds cast time. Zealous 11:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * In my opinion they should only let minions trigger SR on the MM who's controlling them, that would solve the problem with minions providing infinite energy for every necromancer on the team and it wouldn't require changes to the energy cost of minions either. --Draikin 17:37, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Because paragons aren't overpowered either amirite? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 19:45, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Soul reaping has been through plenty of nerfs as of late, enough so that necros are now bringing SoLS to help with energy. I can see it taking another small hit, but nothing this big.  Maybe Reducing the energy from summoned creatures, but thats a bit clunky.--Ryudo 20:19, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, good, Necros have to sort of think about energy management, to the point where they bring another brainless skill to help them out? I'd say we're getting somewhere from "bring a necro and watch your energy win for you". -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 20:21, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Fairly easy to use, yes, but it does require monitoring and ties up a slot on the necros bar. Which is a big step from before the nerfs.  Like I said, SR can afford another small nerf, I think.--Ryudo 20:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Why is it that necros get to use a super-easy skill for energy management and that's fair, whereas monks have to change their secondaries for any kind of real energy management? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 21:01, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * To increase the challenge of playing a good monk, they get no decent e-management within their own attributes. P A R A S I T I C 21:02, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That can't be a serious question but the main reason is monks could spam all their leet low energy heals and prot skills and they would never run out of energy, god mode ftw. Zealous 21:04, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Explain to me why necros get to spam hexes without taking up any extra skill slots and monks can't spam their heals. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 06:23, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Because monks will never run out of energy, things will take ages to die. You'd kill pressure completely. The only way you'd be able to kill stuff is by using spike builds, something that's bad for the game and no one wants. Also, random person would be able to play a good monk cause they wouldn't need to know anything about managing their energy properly. Yeah, it'd be bad. P A R A S I T I C 08:16, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Whereas right now necros get infinite energy and hexpressure teams to death... -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 10:50, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I still don't (and never will) understand how minions have souls, but if energy gain still drips off minions in pvp, limit the benefit to time without exclusions (3 times every 15 seconds excluding full energy is stupid, especially since the necros abusing it always have full energy and always have a buildup of extra "charges" of SR benefit). ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 11:12, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

That's unfortunate, because SR is probably the most broken mechanic in the game. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 03:03, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol. No. 76.64.186.18 04:45, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Izzy, please reconsider the solution Shard presented above. This would eliminate the 'sharing' effect of every necro receiving an SR trigger, but it would also allow the timer to be removed from SR. The timer is causing far more grief than the benefit (I'd call it abuse) of 'sharing' SR hits, weather that occurs in PvE by Necros fueling off an MM, or in PvP through Taste of Death or Spirit Spam. It totally disrupts the corpse-exploitation synergy between Death Magic and SR, especially in PvE, where the entire mob will drop within one or two SR windows, giving you lots of bodies, but only enough energy to animate a few minions. PLEASE, PLEASE get rid of the timer. This fixes everything. No PvP abuse of 'sharing' or manufacturing deaths. In PvE, the energy return becomes more consistent and although its lower, so are the costs of animation. And most importantly, it does not punish builds for being too good, killing too quickly. Carinae Dragonblood 09:57, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No timer.
 * No SR from summoned creatures.
 * Lower cost of Animate spells.
 * What about "For each point of Soul Reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a non-summoned creature near you dies and 1 Energy whenever a minion you control dies."? -- Gordon Ecker 01:31, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That would still allow PvP necros to manufacture deaths (and energy) via Taste of Death. Of course it would only fuel one necro, not the team.  It would also make it unnecessary to lower the costs of the Animate skills.  Besides those caveats, it would be acceptable. Carinae Dragonblood 11:52, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

making it gain energy whenever a non-summoned creature dies, decrease the energy cost of minion spells into something like 5-10 , and removing the timer is what soul reaping needs to be fixed imo , the MM necros will still have signet of lost souls 189.70.131.30 17:55, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

jayce's Discussion
First, Soul Reaping already has active energy management from Signet of Lost Souls, if it's too weak, they can buff it. Second, the proposed mechanics change is awkward. Why should using a necromancer skill on an elementalist yield more energy than using a necromancer skill on a warrior? -- Gordon Ecker 03:38, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Let's take an already complicated attribute and make it more complicated. Not the solution. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 11:09, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * wow no --Hai I'm Cursed Angel [[Image:User Cursed Angel Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 11:19, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * to Gordon, are you going to honestly tell me that you would put points into a conditional SR to use a conditional SoLS for energy management in GvG? im talking about ways the primary attribute can becoming useful in GvG. to Shard, SR is far from being complicated and to suggest that it is complicated is bait for a unfavorable reply. how hard can it be to understand SR? if something dies, you get energy. yep, sounds pretty complicated if you ask me. to conclude, the example i gave is just that, an example. which is why i said "example". it's just one that covered all three solution points i mentioned. i could care less how they fix it as long as the fix covers those points. - jayce 64.253.5.164 14:41, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't play GvG and I don't pay much attention to it, so I don't know how often the skill is useful, that's why I used a qualified statement. I do know that it looks great in theory, and I don't see why buffing it to be less conditional ("If target foe is below 75% Health, "If target foe is hexed or below 50% Health" etc.) couldn't make it great in practice. -- Gordon Ecker 01:20, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Let's destroy soul reaping for all low end pvp/ all pve to balance it for GvG? Believe it or not, most people play GW for reasons other than gvg....I think thats a bad idea.--Ryudo 10:13, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it's bad that we focus balance on things other than GvG, except perhaps for HA and obviously broken things. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 20:31, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * wow both ideas fail hard enough for izzy not to watch this page again, hopefully. and Ryudo ure wrong, balancing after pve would be very gay --Cursed Angel [[Image:User Cursed Angel Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 20:40, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol the only place SR is of any use at all is HA & PvE, I wouldn't trust you guys to balance anything. I think its definately more balanced as it is now, not perfect but better Ajax Baby Eater 21:44, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * CA, Im not saying to balance it for pve, but balancing it JUST thinking about GvG,&HA while IGNORING all other forms of this game would also be "gay."--Ryudo 21:46, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it wouldn't, because people don't get rich (irl or in game) for doing things other than GvG and HA, with a few "gimmicky" exceptions. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 03:00, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

to Ryudo, my intention is not to destroy SR. in fact, even if Arenanet were to consider my example, SR would still be the best energy management in the game for both GvG (when things finally do die) and PvE like it has always been. to Cursed Angel, there is a thin line between constructive criticism and being down right abusive. im almost certain that you have heard something similar before. either contribute to the cause appropriately or don't say anything at all. to conclude, what im proposing is not another patch to SR, it's not another temporary fix, but a once and for all fix to SR from exploitation to GvG. do not fixate yourself on my example in particular because even it may be too forgiving when actually tested in the field. instead focus on the three solution points i listed and base your discussion off of those. - jayce 64.253.5.164 05:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * First, don't vandalize others' posts. Second, this particular suggestion would make the attribute an unreliable balance nightmare. Why should necromancer spells be cheaper when used against casters in general and elementalists in particularly? Why should they be more expensive against physical attackers in general and warriors in particular? How does this bizzarre mechanic fit the Necromancer theme? -- Gordon Ecker 06:41, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * to Gordon, once again you seem to be focusing entirely on the example rather than the solution points even though i just said (for the second time i might add) do not do that. i know you can understand that, but for the life of me, i don't understand why you still do not even try to discuss the solution points. it's as if the only thing you see is the example. do i need to make a special case for you? and btw, it was not a vandalization, as you have put it. it was an identifier to the point i was making in my last reply so that the next time they logged in they would have a clear understanding of what i mean. the strike was more appropriate in this reguards than flat out removing that portion altogether. i will not have any blaten attempts at de-railing this discussion. what you do with your discussion is another matter. - jayce 64.253.5.164 08:59, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't think I needed to address the other points because they hinge upon the third point, but since you insist on it, I will address all three points individually:
 * "Remove the inherent or shared ability.": Individually, this suggestion would be a nerf, which would address the exploitation issue, but not the worthlessness issue.
 * "Shuffle skills from other Attributes into Soul Reaping.": Individually, this suggestion would exacerbate the exploitation issue by giving SR exploiters more capabilities, as well as exacerbating the GvG weakness issue by removing capabilities from other attributes and placing them in an attribute which you have stated is nearly useless in GvG.
 * "Make Soul Reaping an active energy management Attribute instead of a passive so that it can be useful in GvG.": This is the only point which addresses the weakness in GvG issue. You provided one example and I criticized it. I can't criticize a nonexistant example.
 * This section is about discussing your skill feedback entry, criticism of your proposed solutions is not "derailing", it's on-topic discussion. -- Gordon Ecker 10:56, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

As an idea for GW2, I was thinking a Soul Reaping system that was a little more active, for example, percentages of energy costs of spells used on foes are returned, based on your SR level, and the current damage level of the foe. Worded right, it would be something like:
 * "You are refunded 6% of your spell costs for each level of Soul Reaping when you cast necromancer spells on foes that have less than 80% health. The maximum amount of energy that can be gained from a single spell cast in this way is limited by half your current SR level. You also gain 1 point of energy whenever a minion that you directly control dies for every two levels of Soul Reaping."--Skye Marin 09:19, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Readem's thoughts on the matter
GW is bad. No one cares. This is not important, nor overpowered. Kittens are awesome! -- Readem 09:08, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Uh no. Dark Morphon  (contribs)  08:37, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'ma jump on the "overpowered" bandwagon, or at least the "fucking necros, even if they're not overpowered they're still annoying as hell" bandwagon. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 08:42, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Kite's Discussion
I think a better option would be to make it not trigger on other necromancers' minions. Other primary attributes don't lose effectiveness if other members of the same profession are in the same party. -- Gordon Ecker 05:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow, that is a much better idea. >.< Seriously, it makes sense, too. If someone else controls the minion, why should you get to eat its soul? -- Kite 20:53, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Why Nerf?
I say, why nerf things? If something is "overpowered" as soooo many nubsauces claim, make the skill capable of countering that one better. Ex. "OOOMMMGGG Searing Flames is SOOOOO CHEAP, NERF IT, OMFG!", instead of nerfing it, buff recovery, extinguish, pure was mi ling, and w/e u can think of. Instead of nerfing one thing, make everything else better. That way, EVERYONE'S HAPPY! Also please DEAR GOD REMOVE THE DROP NERF *WEEPS*, GW when str8 to hell after you did that, i hope ur happy anet (this is probably a really late complaint and probably in the wrong place). 68.230.145.127 01:19, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Because a moratorium on nerfs and the unchecked buffing of counters would make the entire game look like Dragon Arena. -- Gordon Ecker 02:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Let me explain the D2 slope:
 * Skill A is overpowered. Skill B gets buffed.  Skill B becomes more overpowered than Skill A.
 * Skill A gets buffed. Skill A becomes more overpowered than skill B.
 * Skill B gets buffed. Skill B becomes more overpowered than Skill A.
 * Skill A gets buffed. Skill A becomes more overpowered than skill B.
 * Skill B gets buffed. Skill B becomes more overpowered than Skill A.
 * Skill A gets buffed. Skill A becomes more overpowered than skill B.
 * Skill A now kills everything in one hit/cast.
 * Now do you see why buffing counters to OP skills is always a bad idea? ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 07:01, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Than
My suggestion is to make Soul Reaping's energy gain 4 times every 20 seconds. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Than (talk).
 * Isn't that the exact same progression as it is now? Average out to once every five seconds?  Besides, you have given a suggestion without giving a reason.  Tell us why this is a good idea and we might actually support you.  --Jette 12:01, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh haha, it is. My bad, I did my math wrong...I meant 5 times every 20 seconds. My reason can be found on the Soul Reaping discussion page. Than 01:27, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * This seems like a none-too-subtle way to "un-nerf" soul reaping, in a small way. It would be easier for everyone if you made the suggestion, "cause minions and spirits to give no energy," or "allow necromancer to reap as often as they want in PvE, with limitations in PvP, because PvP is -- as usual -- the source of the problems.  And as usual, the problems with using necromancers as ritualists, monks, and whatever else you want in PvP hasn't been solved or even reduced by this change.  Honestly, I think SR should be modified to give one energy per 3 ranks in PvP, then remove the time-limit restriction altogether.  Then it'll be about equal to Mysticism's energy management potential.  --Jette 05:33, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I see what you mean. Minions are still used in PvP, I know, but after 5 oh...taste of deaths on Bone Horrors, let's say, they all die, and then (assuming each Taste of Death was casted right after another) there would be an 18 and 1/4 second window of no-energy gain from soul reaping. The way I've seen it, removing spirits from giving energy was alright. But completely depriving them in PvE...not so much. The way I see it, for each dieing "fleshy" monster, a Necromancer should receive the 5 SR every 20 second benefit to soul reaping. i.e. Oola's Lab, those things are robots, they have no "soul." They're powered by Gadd's power source apparently, so it wouldn't exactly be "soul" reaping at all. The 5 SR for 20 seconds is to both PvE and PvP. 1 second can't hurt that much (I mean 1 second as in 1 SR every 4 seconds rather than 1 SR every 5 seconds assuming the energy was split up equally in PvE or PvP). That 1 SR for every 3 ranks of soul reaping is way too much like that of the Dervish. In addition, with 15 soul reaping, we only get 5 points of energy. That's...worse than the 3 times every 15 second nerf, because if we only receive (i.e. with 10 soul reaping) 3 energy for each monster's death, we will not have anything good enough to keep our energy up for minions making us replaceable with Ritualist minion masters. Than 07:04, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The SR / Mysticism comparison is flawed, deaths in PvP are rarer and harder to control than enchantments. -- Gordon Ecker 07:08, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Why yes, it is flawed, actually. So, it's ironic that Soul Reaping is still overpowered, while Mysticism is not.  --Jette 10:22, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Mysticism was even more overpowered back when it gave 1 energy per 2 ranks + 3 health per rank during the Nightfall PvP public beta weekend (although probably not as overpowered as SR was back when it yielded full energy from everone's spirits). Reducing SR's energy yield by 2/3 would be overkill. -- Gordon Ecker 19:55, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Let's make it trigger 5 times every 20 seconds, an extra time if you have daggers equipped, but one less time if the moon is full. Each minion you have lets it trigger an amount of times equal to the square root of your max minions minus your current minions.
 * Or we could find a one-liner solution that people can understand without posting noob questions on wiki, like "1 energy whenever a non summoned creature dies." OMG I just fixed soul reaping, I'm a freaking genius.  Wait, everyone but izzy already thought of that solution.  I guess we're all amazing.  ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 01:04, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * He did consider it, but he said he didn't want to remove the synergy with Death Magic. -- Gordon Ecker 02:22, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Or, he could make it so that SR won't take you above a certain energy level? -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  15:30, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * He could just decrease the energy gain from minions to like 1/3 or something. Then there'd still be a synergy but it wouldn't be so powerful and broken a one. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:82.3.232.209 (talk).