Feedback talk:Regina Buenaobra/Journal/Archive Oct-Dec 2009

Newest Journal Entry
No offense, Regina, but by your post on your talk page the other day I had assumed you would actually be telling us something new. From what I just read it sounds like all your saying is "Nothing's happened, we're playing Aion and EVE, leave us alone". If that's being more open...then that's just sad. No news on the XTH? Seriously? It's been months. Nothing new about halloween or the "pvp love" update? Come on guys. You can't say you're going to be more open and tell us absolutely nothing. --Karate  Jesus  15:34, 1 October 2009  (UTC)
 * But, what they can't tell us is exciting! Aren't you excited? -- FreedomBound [[Image:User_Freedom_Bound_Sig.png|19px]] 15:43, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

What i want you to say is an date for the Sealed deck Mod and the herobattles-Close, the new sealed deck arena and the delete of heros. You sayed after the herobattle finals in september and this would be tonight?
 * It looks like you're busy on the other side of the big pond! And it seems I've to take some time off from Aion when Halloween comes along :D  (I know what you mean by taking your time, leveling several characters, that's my prefered playing style as well). --Lady Rhonwyn 20:36, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Hey Regina. I would like to be one of the fans to thank you for keeping to the ArenaNets deal about being open with their fanbase. People might get up in arms because they don't have exact dates when things will come, but don't worry about that because I think you've done an excellent job in just posting to the community and letting us know what's up. We can definitely tell that you all are extremely busy and pumping out lots of work just to keep us happy, thanks! I'm liking the openness of the staff right now, keep it up! =) --220.235.128.153 15:23, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I totally agree! It's about time us perfectly content players of GW spoke up over this horrid (like seriously, guys. horrid.) whining. I appreciate all your work.207.216.104.5 05:15, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Were all of the winning skill bars unique?
Since the most winner-bars include a rez-signet, we are talking about a seven-skill-combination: Having only 18 different skills, one could create 31824 different bars. But GuildWars offers hundrets of skills. Those statistics are misleading and do not decrease any criticism. The community complained about the fact that most of the bars are copies from popular sources like PvX-Wiki, especially because those bars were made for players, not for henchmen. Consequently, those bars may be popular, but they are rubbish for henchmen which have no idea of tactics and do not communicate with the rest of the party.--aRTy 15:50, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Most of the builds there are Gimmick builds. - Reanimated X 16:07, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * General Conditions Originality: Entries must be the submission of the contestant and cannot be taken from any other source.



! colspan="2" | GvG winners
 * I Will Win Ff || 7/7 equal, 8th stated at optional.
 * Leet T H E O R Y || 7/7 equal, 8th stated at optional.
 * This Is Trigger || 8/8 equal.
 * Etron In Vitro || 6/7 equal, this one is a little personal.
 * Lulu Xan || 6/7 equal, Pin Down & Debilitating Shot are stated at optional.
 * Tannaros Tower Rush || 6/7 equal, Signet of Humility stated at optional, changed the e-management skill.
 * Il Juliya Il || 6/7 equal, changed Veil to Remove Hex.
 * Bellicus Magnus || 6/6 equal, both added skills are suggested at optional.
 * Luzy Of Fire || 7/7 equal, Distortion at optional.
 * Mala Aurora || 6/8 equal, added the popular resto aura and popular hard-rez.
 * Saint Reapers Sin || 6/6 equal, dash at optional, added rez.
 * Pseudo Antipathy || 6/6 equal, added some popular skills.
 * Zen Si Ert || 6/6 equal, both added skills are suggested at optional.
 * Aria Of Nerf || 8/8 equal.
 * Aurora Alessandra || 5/6 equal, one skill suggested at optional. A little more personal one again.
 * }
 * Luzy Of Fire || 7/7 equal, Distortion at optional.
 * Mala Aurora || 6/8 equal, added the popular resto aura and popular hard-rez.
 * Saint Reapers Sin || 6/6 equal, dash at optional, added rez.
 * Pseudo Antipathy || 6/6 equal, added some popular skills.
 * Zen Si Ert || 6/6 equal, both added skills are suggested at optional.
 * Aria Of Nerf || 8/8 equal.
 * Aurora Alessandra || 5/6 equal, one skill suggested at optional. A little more personal one again.
 * }
 * Zen Si Ert || 6/6 equal, both added skills are suggested at optional.
 * Aria Of Nerf || 8/8 equal.
 * Aurora Alessandra || 5/6 equal, one skill suggested at optional. A little more personal one again.
 * }
 * Aurora Alessandra || 5/6 equal, one skill suggested at optional. A little more personal one again.
 * }
 * }



! colspan="2" | HA winners
 * Tiny Tina || 8/8 equal.
 * Iarwain De Llanowar || 6/8 equal, Savage Slash at "variants".
 * Adepte De La Guerre || 7/7 equal, added skill is personal.
 * Haldibarn Earendul || 6/7 equal, added skill at optional, one personal alteration.
 * Unfaithful Servant || 7/7 equal, 8th skill at optional
 * Syn Spellstrike || only 4/8 equal, but picked different interrupt and changed rez-signet for hard-rez.
 * Leet Noobified || 7/7 equal, 8th skill personal optional
 * The Necromaxime || 8/8 equal.
 * Eric The Devistator || 8/8 equal.
 * Our Guild Is Leet || 6/6 equal, 7th skill suggested at optional, picked rez-signet instead of suggested hard-rez.
 * Bacchikoi Bacchikoi || 7/8 equal, altered snare-skill.
 * Der Held || 7/7 equal, added popular skill for optional slot.
 * Pnoy Pride || 6/8 equal, altered speed-buff suggested at "variants".
 * Hi Captain Obvious || 7/7 equal, 8th at optional.
 * Khai Kemnebi || 6/6 equal, personal ideas for optional slots.
 * Noodle Legs || 5/6 equal, changed skill suggested at variants, one suggested skill for optional slot.
 * }
 * Sorry for the long post and the fact that I needed some time to create it. But there you've got your Gimmick builds.--aRTy 19:27, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd be inclined to disagree with the idea that they're "gimmick builds." In fact, these builds have been such strong staples in the meta over time that calling them "gimmicks" seems almost offensive. 173.19.206.223 19:50, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * If you did the research before you posted, you wouldn't have to deal with the shame afterwards. &mdash;Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_sophisticated.png|19px]] 19:52, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Either you didn't notice the irony or I got something really wrong. But whatever...--aRTy 19:57, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Bacchikoi Bacchikoi || 7/8 equal, altered snare-skill.
 * Der Held || 7/7 equal, added popular skill for optional slot.
 * Pnoy Pride || 6/8 equal, altered speed-buff suggested at "variants".
 * Hi Captain Obvious || 7/7 equal, 8th at optional.
 * Khai Kemnebi || 6/6 equal, personal ideas for optional slots.
 * Noodle Legs || 5/6 equal, changed skill suggested at variants, one suggested skill for optional slot.
 * }
 * Sorry for the long post and the fact that I needed some time to create it. But there you've got your Gimmick builds.--aRTy 19:27, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd be inclined to disagree with the idea that they're "gimmick builds." In fact, these builds have been such strong staples in the meta over time that calling them "gimmicks" seems almost offensive. 173.19.206.223 19:50, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * If you did the research before you posted, you wouldn't have to deal with the shame afterwards. &mdash;Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_sophisticated.png|19px]] 19:52, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Either you didn't notice the irony or I got something really wrong. But whatever...--aRTy 19:57, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * }
 * Sorry for the long post and the fact that I needed some time to create it. But there you've got your Gimmick builds.--aRTy 19:27, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd be inclined to disagree with the idea that they're "gimmick builds." In fact, these builds have been such strong staples in the meta over time that calling them "gimmicks" seems almost offensive. 173.19.206.223 19:50, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * If you did the research before you posted, you wouldn't have to deal with the shame afterwards. &mdash;Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_sophisticated.png|19px]] 19:52, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Either you didn't notice the irony or I got something really wrong. But whatever...--aRTy 19:57, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * My best guess would be that Jette is referring to Mr 173. C4K3 [[Image:User_C4K3_Signature.jpg]] Talk 20:10, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm Khai Kemnebi; I've said it before, 5/8ths of that bar is on just about every working PvP paragon bar in existence. This leaves room for choice of elite, and two optionals (though one of them should probably be an attack). Aevar talk   contribs 02:53, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry man, but there are good working original GvG paragon bars not using your 5/8 skill stuff. You know, they can quite good gank by using an entirely different set up. Ɲ oɕʈɋɽɕɧ  02:55, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll prove it to ya. There are only 6 (single, not team builds) paragon bars on PvX that are vetted, all with a ranking of Good.
 * Crippling Paragon uses 6/8 of the skills I used, 8/8 if you count the variants.
 * Cruel Spear Paragon uses 6/8.
 * Conditional Paragon uses 5/8.
 * Incoming AB uses 4/8 but lacks a res due to it being AB. So you can pretty much count that as 5/8.
 * Toolbox Paragon uses 5/8.
 * TPIY Paragon uses only 3/8.
 * Again, I submit to you that those skills are needed for most PvP paragon bars in order to be competitive. After I chose my elite, there was not much wiggle room for making a decent paragon build for HA.  Moreover, when I made the build, I tried to keep it so that it wasn't imbalanced, I tried to be mindful of AI, and I wanted a bar that did not play better than a human; a human running this bar will spike support and pressure targets far better than an AI or better yet, run something else on that human. Aevar talk   contribs 03:20, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That shows how Guild Wars has a large range of great skill to pick from that will all give a different advantage in different situations! But seriosly, ofcourse Paragon bars are similiar, so are Warrior and Ranger bars, it still doesn't take away the point that all nearly all the build posted were not designed to work with AI, but to work for good players. Frosty 03:59, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Stop defending this abominable move on ANet's part. You're full of shit because you are either defending them purely so you can keep your billion platinum mini or because you have no idea of what you are talking about.  You just admitted to using 8/8 of the skills on PvX, a (very bad) website specifically geared towards catering to shitters and heroes, yet -- despite ANet quite clearly stating that meta builds would not be chosen -- your meta build was chosen.  Or to be more accurate, your name was drawn out of a hat of 300 other people who submitted the exact same build copypasting off of that crappy fansite.  The only redeeming quality this situation has is that your build isn't insanely overpowered on heroes, in stark contrast to the other shitter builds the heroes got, including but not limited to the N/E, Me/Rt and other builds that will cause the situation to be exactly the same as it is now.
 * ATTN ANET: WE DIDN'T CARE THAT THE HEROES WERE STUPID AND UGLY, THE PROBLEM WAS THEIR GAY, BADLY DESIGNED AI AND SHITTY GIMMICK BUILDS. Congratulations on wasting months of "work" to accomplish ABSOLUTELY NOTHING when a significant percentage of the people who post here would be able to do a better job with 5 minutes worth of access to the skill files in notepad.  Enjoy watching what few good players you have still playing your game leave it.  If you have any common sense left (which would surprise me at this point), you'll pull the extra heroes "henchmen" you shoved in and let PLAYERS fight PLAYERS in, you know, PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER mode.  If you still want to give a few random shitters their pets and tonics, fine, go ahead; I don't think anyone would give a rat's ass at this point.  &mdash;Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_sophisticated.png|19px]] 04:07, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not defending Anet, I'm defending myself and my choices. I am saying I did not go to PvX and copy a build and paste it into my submission.  I didn't admit to anything, if you read what I was saying and paid attention, you'd see that.  I'm also likely to be disqualified and banned for being honest about my account here. Aevar talk   contribs 05:19, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Except the problem is, most of the "winners" of this disaster will say the exact same thing. The excuse that they didn't go to PvX is complete bullshit when you take a look at how similar they are. And Anet's trying to cover their ass by having winners sign a document stating that they did come up with the winning bars themselves even though clearly they didn't. This is just beyond pathetic. And the worst part is, Anet will feign ignorance once again and won't admit that they made yet another mistake (as they are already doing right now). So if they won't admit that they were wrong, how are they ever going to learn? 209.89.252.164 18:06, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * PvX is a huge database influencing the judge more than the contributor. The highly rated builds represent what the judges are most likely to rate as good as well. In that regard PvX is the #1 source for "accepted wisdom". Considering that nobody can browse through 30k entries in that short time, we have to assume the judges already had a rough idea of what they were looking for in each build. People coming close to the "accepted wisdom" of the PvX had a huge advantage with arbitrary deviations taking the cake. That is not to say, there was any foul play involved. Judges, contributors, result analysts, they all have their ideas on what a worthy winner build is. With PvX being some sort of on-going build contest, it comes as no surprise that judge and PvX arrive at similar conclusions. If the builds were 100% different from anything seen on PvX, then either the judges or PvX would be doing something seriously wrong. That would then provoke the wrath of people saying the winning builds were not good enough.--4thvariety 20:31, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's cool, I'm totally learning how to program. I'll create an army of the undead and DDoS GW2 from the first day it comes out until GW1 is actually fixed.  This assuming I don't have to fight a cleric.  &mdash;Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_sophisticated.png|19px]] 19:09, 4 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The most annoying thing was that I was actually trying to create a balanced original build. While I don't actually use the builds I created I thought they wouldn't overpower a hero while being fair to use (oh how wrong I was), while all these 'winners' went and copied off pvx. [begin sarcasm] Thanks a lot guys! [end sarcasm]--202.182.65.195 01:37, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I warned you Regina not to remove Heroes from HA and GVG. It's just a step backwards like when PVP players were restricted to premade builds. And everyone knows those winning builds are not original at all. If you actually followed your own rules, you should be awarding prizes to players that submitted truly original builds. This contest is a joke and is more along the lines of a sweepstakes for the players that ripped builds off of pvxwiki. Loves to Sync 06:20, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Why should you care? In case you didn't notice, noone here gives an atom's ass about who posted the builds and under what circumstances; we give particle accelerators about what A.net did to fuck up PvP system-OWAIT they didn't change a thing! Funny. You know what? I wouldn't care if they ripped off builds from PvX to get their shiny miniature or whatever-the-hell-it-was. I wouldn't care if it was just for show, for big flashy display in System Message every 5 fucking seconds. troll somewhere else please. :) Titani  Ertan  21:05, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Who cares what Shard's sock "knows"? Backsword 06:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "I'm not defending Anet, I'm defending myself and my choices. I am saying I did not go to PvX and copy a build and paste it into my submission."
 * "Judges, contributors, result analysts, they all have their ideas on what a worthy winner build is. With PvX being some sort of on-going build contest, it comes as no surprise that judge and PvX arrive at similar conclusions. If the builds were 100% different from anything seen on PvX, then either the judges or PvX would be doing something seriously wrong. That would then provoke the wrath of people saying the winning builds were not good enough."
 * I do care if it's implanted.
 * If it gets implanted, it's a whole different story.
 * You see, I ran many Ranger bars over the past year. I started off with the Original, which is basically a combination of unheard-of skills stuck in a mish-mash. Then I moved on to the PvX, where me and my friends made copy pasta with noobsauce. After a while, I thought "Hey! Instead of X and Y, I can put α and β!", and so I did. Now, tell me this: I ran some builds 2/8, sometimes 1/8, 6/8 and etc. Does it matter? There are a few prime skills that can be found everywhere, and have become staple, sometimes fortunately and sometimes unfortunately. Now tell me this Chapter II: After the PvX stage I ran srs bsns builds, and whadya know? It was a success. Of course, it wasn't like the PvX builds, in which I made whipped noob; it wasn't like the Original in which I made myself a whipped noob. Yet, it was efficient. Hell, it even worked with the AI after some tests and tweaks!
 * How many of those builds have entered the contest? I can bet a 5 year paycheck that lots. Yet, for some reason, that didn't come into consideration, even though it would be better, balance-wise, if they implanted the srs bsns instead of the PvX.
 * "Who cares what Shard's sock "knows"?"

Phishing
Too late, i already gave my e-mail and password: Jason@DisneyLand.us - godzillaversusmickeymouse. Oh, i did it again... Yseron - 90.9.120.70 22:41, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I've got about 4000 emails in my inbox, most from Second Life, so even if I was getting emails from bad people I'm sure I'd probably miss them ^^ I win!!!!  000.00.00.00  22:45, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Fake GW2 Beta
I have sent a email off to dot.tk to remove there use of the free url shorting. It will be closed by Wednesday. --Dominator Matrix  23:02, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Easy solution. Release GW2 beta. --220.235.128.153 13:58, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Easier then it looks. They create A+ games so it takes time. Patience is a virtue. Anyways the url is blocked by firefox/google. The url has been disabled by dot.tk this morning, and its been transferred into a park domain. --Dominator Matrix  04:05, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Patience. It takes time to delicately weave what they have successfully done in Guild Wars, combine it with another Korean Grindfest needle, and then add some WoW brand silk. Give them time to destroy what good they have done in Guild Wars! Titani [[image:User Titani Ertan chrome.png|Uth]] Ertan  08:53, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

It was a joke. Making jokes on-line is really way too hard. --220.235.128.153 10:02, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That's like making sarcastic jokes of terrorists the day after 9/11, we've had so much QQ about GW2 it makes no sense. -- -Chaos- (talk) -- 10:05, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's exactly like that. We're planning a carpet bombing of the offending joker, Chaos. Mr J 11:04, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * ffffffffffuuuuuu, don't! It's not worth flying all over to Finland! -- -Chaos- (talk) -- 12:26, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It costs more for a B-2 to take off than it does for it to fly around the world. &mdash;Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_sophisticated.png|19px]] 17:31, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks
For the somewhat informative journal update. People can QQ below this if they feel a need to complain about everything. You can feel free to ignore them and just read this post if you like. <font color="#A55858">Misery  16:36, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Misery, you need a carebear name.--Underwood 16:37, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Cool story bro. <font color="#A55858">Misery  16:39, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I want to complain about the lack of terrible new jokes. The terrible jokes are great. But terrible. You see my quandary. <font color="Black">-- <font color="#0104C6">FreedomBound [[Image:User_Freedom_Bound_Sig.png|19px]] 16:41, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * <<....nail down (appropriate, in-character) names for the Henchmen.>>
 * Drat, I was hoping for a henchie named Rolol Lololol Koda Kumi [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_UT.jpeg‎|19px]] talk 17:29, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd also like to think you, Regina. I really appreciate the information; even if everything's not finished yet, it's nice to know where you stand, and, consequently, what to expect.
 * Now, regarding some of the content of the entry itself:
 * "Linsey and Robert are working with me to get in touch with all the winners, nail down (appropriate, in-character) names for the Henchmen."
 * Does this mean that there won't be a Noodle Legs or Rolol Lololol?
 * "Syncing Random Arena"
 * It's still relatively easy. I'm not sure if you were aware of that or not; I just thought it should be brought to your attention.
 * "GvG Tiebreaker"
 * I strongly, strongly recommend reimplementation of something similar to the original VoD. VoD wasn't a problem because of aggressive, overpowered splitting; aggressive, overpowered splitting were problems in and of themselves.  Assassins that did huge, fast damage and couldn't be touched due to shadow stepping aren't really very functionally different from elementalists that do huge, fast damage and can't be touched due to Featherfoot Grace.  I may be wrong, but it feels to me that the removal of VoD was done in lieu of balancing the game, or those elements of the game which related to splitting in GvG.  Unfortunately, as long as those balance issues remain, they will continue to manifest in GvG unless there are major changes to the format itself (unless splitting becomes pointless, basically).
 * Those are my thoughts, in a nutshell.
 * Once again, thank you for the update. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  17:34, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well...it's nice to hear that you guys are doing something.....but, um, I would have assumed that a lot of that has been worked on since April (unless you guys took the summer off), so why is so much of it delayed? <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">20:44, 7 October 2009  (UTC)

The XTH
Any news on it, yet? It just seems to be a pretty large "hole" in your list of things that Linsey addressed. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate  <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">20:44, 7 October 2009  (UTC)
 * XTH can stay dead imho. 1:1 ectos/zkeys ftw.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  20:55, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * When they do have news on it, don't you think they'd be pretty eager to make it known? I.e. you'll know about it when they have something to tell about it? I can't be the only one getting bored of the "are we there yet" comments every ten minutes. -- pling User Pling sig.png 20:57, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No, I don't think they want to have it known....or they would have said something. I also don't care about "in-game economy" bullshit (I always used my keys anyway :/). I'd like a reason to care about the mATs again. Oh, and I figure after...what? 8 months (or something) of time they've dedicated to "fixing" the XTH, I'd like to see something for all that "work". Unless, for once, the conspiracy theorists were right and they just took it down so we'd forget about it. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">20:58, 7 October 2009  (UTC)
 * Last news we heard was that any real work couldn't be done until the XTH NPC was removed from the game. Since that was only done last month, then they've only had one month to work out the database issues, also squeezing in everything else they've been working on. I wouldn't expect it any time before New Years.--Pyron Sy 21:25, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Pyron, just to point out live servers aren't the same as test servers. Anet could (and probably have) removed that npc from the test servers ages and ago and proceeded with work from there. I think last I heard they were stress testing the new system to see if it holds up. -- Salome   [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 22:51, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I may be mistaken, but I believe it was said that as long as people were interacting with the NPC it would still make calls to the database. Since those interacts would disrupt the work that needed to be done, they couldn't work on the database until the NPC was removed. If the work could be done simply on the test servers, there would have been no need to remove him from live in the first place.--Pyron Sy 23:12, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * From what I understand the reason they removed him, was so that they could commence stress testing, but i could be mistaken. -- Salome   [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 23:16, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Can I be wrong here too? :)
 * I thougt they said that they needed to remove the NPC in order to safely distribute the points ... I didn't read that as further testing was needed, but that they just had to take it down to distribute the points, then simply put it back once they were done. And that would be it.
 * At this point, I just want to know if they are actually working on fixing it at all, or if it's gone, forever.
 * - Kherec 13:34, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Not to beat on a dead horse here but... ANET, please give it to us straight - are there any plans at this time to do anything about this issue at any point in the future or should we all just move on? 192.155.57.197 20:04, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the expansion
But that doesn't actually explain why some terrible bars were chosen. There are bars that were chosen that the AI cannot and will never be able to run properly. I've already reported the issues I found within my first couple of hours of testing. This has already been commented on several times and I have posted the bugs, so I will not expand further at this time. <font color="#A55858">Misery  22:44, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

"New HoH map"
Is there any info on this we can get? As I don't PvP often, I'm more interested in any lore value it has, but what would be more interesting for me would be: Are these HoH maps for HA or Tombs? (This is the most important question) There are "two" HoH now... And by lore value, I mean, will it continue the idea of a path heading to the HoH (which the first two and a few other maps of HA seem to show), or will it just be "another map" with no intention of lore value behind it? -- Konig/ talk 01:15, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

My problem with henchmen (yeah i know it's getting old)
My favorite part of all this was the quote: "great, competitive, henchman skill bars". Arenanet doesn't seem to get the idea that henchmen are not supposed to be competitive!!! Isn't that the very essence of Player vs Player or have we forgotten that? Even if you were to bring a shitty zaishen henchmen, (which i also think shouldn't be allowed), that henchman is supposed to fill a party slot and make 8/8 so you can enter; it is not supposed to fill party role. Replacing heroes with hench does disallow you from locking onto targets and macro'ing stuff, but this is typical anet failure in not looking at the BIG PICTURE. The problem isn't the control over the AI. It's the AI in general!

AI has the capability to maintain enchantments perfectly, interrupt 1/2 second casts on purpose, maintain hexes with full uptime on enemies, and detect when a party member they do not have targeted casts an enchantment so it can remove it. they don't lag out, they dont have ping, they're not players.

I'm very disappointed in how this went through. An idea could have been that perhaps the community shouldnt have been allowed to make the bars. But Martin clearly stated that they were not looking for meta or abusable builds. They were supposed to be original. Highlighting a different part of the rule doesnt change the line, "Cannot be taken from any other source."

Removing henchmen/heroes from pvp is not as devastating as killing shadow form or 600 smite. The PvP community is completely different from the pve community. The cries for change are different, and require different types of solutions. This solution, in my opinion, was a complete failure. -- adrin  03:12, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * In PvE henchmen can fill the spot of bad meatshields and encourage bringing good players, but it doesn't work in PvP, and now getting a hench over a dropped out party member isn't a similar death sentence. When everyone drops hench will hold halls! -- -Chaos- (talk) -- 11:02, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd rather ANet just replace ghostlies and GLs with base defenders and get it over with. Brb, pirating starcraft 2.  &mdash;Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_sophisticated.png|19px]] 11:48, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You need to change your siggy-pic to one with a hat and eye-patch. <font color="Black">000.00.00.00 11:49, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * A hat requires more artistic talent than a circle does. :<  &mdash;Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_sophisticated.png|19px]] 11:53, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "You can doo it!" <font color="Black">000.00.00.00 12:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * So strong comment, I lol'ddddddddddd -- -Chaos- (talk) -- 12:52, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It would also make me scale the thing down even further, meaning most people wouldn't be able to tell what it was without clicking on it (they may not be able to as it is). I might make one for special occasions or something, but not for ordinary use.  You should probably continue this on my talk page if you want to, Regina's space is clogged enough as it is.  &mdash;Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_sophisticated.png|19px]] 13:00, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Technically the alot of the "winning" henchmen skillbars aren't actually competitive at all. Both Anet & the winners didn't take into account flaws of the AI. There's winners with Hammer Bash & Magehunters Smash/Devestating Hammer, henchmen will use Hammer Bash ASAP thus cancels out the elite skill. One of the warriors have shock which= 0 energy on a henchman, Warrior henchmen have Frenzy & Rush which mean 40 armour warriors, as the AI can't cancel stances effectively. Some Warrior henchmen have flail & charging strike which means 66% speed warriors. In short except for a few exceptions ALL of the melee "winning" bars are useless for the AI. The original pvp warrior henchmen were probably better because they didn't slow themselves down to a crawl, lose half their armour or spam shock(0 energy indefinitely).(marsc 23:04, 9 October 2009 (UTC))
 * Yes, but every single one of the ultra-gay hero bars is now a henchman bar. In other words, the update accomplished absolutely nothing.  –Jette [[Image:User_Jette_sophisticated.png|19px]] User Jette tophat.png  23:37, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Also another problem is Regina in the journal entry claimed they'll tweek the AI if it is needed(and it is). This could be avoided if they chose builds that the AI was competent enough to use. Tweeking the AI would make the contest pointless as the current "winners" couldn't possibly have submitted the best builds if you need to modify the AI just to make them work.(marsc 16:01, 10 October 2009 (UTC))
 * your argument makes no sense as nobody runs frontline AI. they all run midline hexes and interrupts cuz the AI response time is broken. That's my whole point. You're finding the useless ones and trying to justify the project as a whole. -- adrin [[Image:User_Adrin_mysig.jpg|20px]] 18:46, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Henchman Contest Winners
I was excited about the new henchman skill bars even though I accidentally missed my opportunity to submit my own. That was until I just now looked at the winners (HA here & GvG here). It looks like a copy paste of the HA/GvG/RA meta builds straight off of PvX Wiki. Each format has a Shock Axe winner, with skills in common even in the same positions on the bars. The winning Ranger builds are a Magebane Ranger, a Cripshot Ranger, a BA Ranger, and a Thumper. Not a single ranger build that wasn't taken straight from PvX wiki was chosen. Oh yes, the almost identical Mirror Eles are among the winners of each format too. What happened to the very first condition of the contest, originality?\

There is also obvious class discrimination. 3 Warriors, 4 Elementalists, but only 1 Ritualist, 1 Dervish, and 1 Assassin per format; sure, pass them off as non-core classes but then please explain to me why Paragons along with the other 4 core classes all get 2 per format. Having 3 Warriors allows for representation of each weapon, so having 4 Elementalists should allow for representation of each element right? Well yes, except that neither format has winners of each element (there's no Earth among the GvG winners and no Air among the HA winners). All 4 Paragon builds have Aggressive Refrain, what if we want a Paragon henchman that isn't suicidal?

-- Kirbman 03:53, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
 * /sigh...can you not read previous posts before you make a new section?-- [[Image:User_Shewmake_1.jpg|20px]] hew 03:54, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe you should try reading my post before saying that it should be under one of the previous posts. I'm assuming you're thinking that it should be under the "Were all of the winning skill bars unique?" section but if you read it you'll realize that that topic is only part of my post. -- [[Image:User_Kirbman sig.png]] Kirbman 20:14, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe you should try to trim down your posts without repeating what's already been said then? As far as class discrimination, it's kind of a mirror of how many builds got submitted probably... &mdash; User_Poki_sig.png Poki#3  (<font color="#8B0000">talk ) 20:42, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Team Arena/Hero Battles Closure
Can you tell us whether or not SD will be added to the game when HB/TA are removed? It would be nice to know. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate  <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">20:51, 19 October 2009  (UTC)
 * And will there be an in-game announcement concerning this? I think it would be appropriate considering how many players aren't aware. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">20:54, 19 October 2009  (UTC)
 * just Login announcement ? M3G [[Image:User_M3G_Pumpkin.png‎| 19px | ]] 13:50, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hopefully they remember to remove the TA and HB Zaishen quests from the Zaishen Combat cycle when TA and HB is removed. --Silver Edge 20:49, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Looks like they're not announcing it..... <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate  <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">20:50, 20 October 2009  (UTC)

I think they should... there are alot of lovers of TA and hardcore fans of HB, many people don't actually check/post on wiki either. Nikdanbro 20:28, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

PAX East, March 2010
I think you should start planning now. :) This might not be a part of your convention rounds come spring, but I think it is important to get out to the East coast USA.  I know quite a few people on the east coast would be able to make it to Boston for this, it is a little bit closer than Washington state. I figure if we can drum up support now you can make plans if you haven't already! PAX East Registration Page - -  Obie Quiet 19:42, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Good job reverting the AT to let rawr play
If you procrastinate and don't have things go your way... Don't you usually get punished for that? Or is rawr still above the rules? &mdash; The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.186.64.24 (talk) at 21:28, 24 October 2009 (UTC).


 * Agreed. &mdash; The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.233.200.222 (talk) at 12:30, 25 October 2009 (UTC).


 * OR maybe the AT actually IS screwed up? -- -Chaos- (talk) -- 17:07, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * If you had a project due... let's say in 4 weeks... But you chose to do it the 2 days before... You are required to use the library and cite several sources. You must go to this specific library. The last two days you decide to do your project... The library is closed for maintenence. How would your unfinished project be treated?
 * You fail because you are retarded for leaving it to the last minute. King Neoterikos 10:49, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I would assume a lack of response is an acknowledgement that the leniency by anet was wrong.


 * ATs are a joke.--Underwood 08:10, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

At this time, there is no other way to obtain it.
I really hope every part of that is true, in which case, yay! XD <font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 11:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "At this time" means just that. If everyone gets one on Halloween, or if everyone gets one a a reward at the end of the last halloween quest (whenever it goes live), the statement only available via contest "at this time" would still be true.
 * That's my point. It implies that the contest reward very well may not be the only way to get this, eventually. Yay! [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 22:24, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Heroes in Guild Halls
it would be cool if heroes can be taken into scrimmage matches aswell, since they are fun to do <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  17:34, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * somehow i dont see that ever happening. -- Salome   [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 18:03, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * If it doesn't, we have lost an amazing testing utility. <font color="#A55858">Misery  18:09, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry for being dense but with the removal or Heroes from all forms of pvp now,I'm kinda curious what would be left to test with heroes in a pvp setting? -- Salome   [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 18:13, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not specific hero testing, it is skill testing in a controlled environment. Rather than needing multiple real people you can test anything that requires multiple people with just two, such as the functionality of "target other ally" skills. It also allows you to nail down specific AI bugs by forcing actions to create situations, Mr. J and I used forced actions to confirm a few things when testing the new henchman bars, such as enabling GoLE to confirm that the BSurge henchman casts no skills while it is active. <font color="#A55858">Misery  18:18, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Aren't you in QA? >_> <font color="#A55858">Misery  18:18, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I am in QA, I should have elabortaed a bit more in my previous question. With the isle of the nameless being present and the removal of heroes from general PvP, what is the need for heroes to be in scrim matches? However upon further inspection, it seems that the new henchies have not been added en'masse to the GtoB outpost, which does seem a bit of an oversight. -- Salome   [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 18:23, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a lot harder to test the functionality of, for example, "Brace Yourself!" when you are relying on the Master of Hammers to knock you down instead of having a friend do it on demand. There are about a million and one examples where two people with heroes could test something that one person in the Isle of Nameless with heroes or two people without heroes could not test. <font color="#A55858">Misery  18:27, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Exactly. It provides a place to test the AI in a controlled environment. There is absolutely no reason why heroes should be excluded from the party in a guild hall or from scrimmage matches. I believe the aim of this update was to remove hero usage in rated matches, but the solution for GvG had a negative impact on good features. To be fair, it probably was just an oversight. Mr J 18:31, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with Misery, it was a valuable testing tool, especially when you needed a better environment than the Isle. I know I've been itching for a PvE scrimmage match capability, it would help test PvE changes, ideas and the likes more effectively than running into an explorable.  Alas, missed opportunities number 2476.  <font color="Black">000.00.00.00  18:48, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Hasn't Regina already said Joe is working on this? I'm sure that even if he figures out a way to do this, we still wont be able to scrimmage. I'm pretty sure he'd have to make it so that you can't enter a PvP match with heroes, which would include scrimmages. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate  <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">18:51, 30 October 2009  (UTC)
 * Thanks for the answers guys, as I said at the start I was genuinely interested in the utility of it. I'm quite fortunate in that I rarely need heroes to help me test things as I have an active friends list, but I know that's not the case for everyone, thus why I was curious. Hopefully anet will rectify this then and as Mr J said, hopefully this is just an oversight. -- Salome   [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 18:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Still can't test how the AI applies Balthazar's Pendulum with an active friendslist. And while you could find a spot in PvE to recreate every possible situation you want to test, a lot easier to get a friend and heroes (or a few friends) to bring bars full of knockdowns and do them one by one to see how it works. Before you ask what we could possibly be testing, when is anti-KD applied? Do they cast it during timed KD spells like Lightning Surge? Do they use it whenever a hammer starts wailing away on someone? Do they attempt to use it at all versus ranged KDs such as Gale and Signet of Judgment? What about Scorpion Wire? While everything I just mentioned can be tested elsewhere, it would be very, very messy to test that "live" in PvE. Hope you can see where I am coming from. <font color="#A55858">Misery  19:02, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I honestly was curious. With the seperation of many skills into PvE and PvP counterparts and the removal of heroes from pvp, I was curious as to its general utility in a pvp only testing environment. When checking PvP AI, I was also curious as to its utility in PvP due to me not knowing if the general AI of heroes is coded in the same manner as the more static bars of henchies and if both would behave in the same manner if given identical bars? I can see now that it would have utility in certain PvE related instances and I do see the value of it. Thanks for clarifying it for me, it is much appreciated. :) -- Salome   [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 19:20, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The AI is the same for heroes, henchmen and hard mode monsters. <font color="#A55858">Misery  19:24, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Gosh, I was saddened by this, too. Not only does it severely limit controlled testing, as Misery has well pointed out, it removes an aspect of the game that my small guild enjoyed. We often would fight 8 vs 8 scrimmages with unique builds or combinations of builds comprized of 2 or 3 people to a team and heroes filling out the other slots, coming up with ideas for full human teams. As it now stands, unless I want the cookie-cutter henchmen builds (and only one of any one type at that) in my team, I'm out of luck. Now I know that someone will likely read my reply and, stating the obvious, tell me that gimmicks were a main reason that heroes were done away with in PvP in the first place. It doesn't change the fact that you do run into such things played by full human teams (good to be prepared by having tested possible counters, right?), that scrimmages are meant for testing in a PvP setting, and that it was just darn fun! Oh well. 4.88.50.197 19:41, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that we need to be able to bring heroes into the guild hall even thought they won't be allowed to fight there. That is where most PvE players prefer to set up their heroes' gear, and it will get very annoying very fast to have to add them back in after every time we stop by our halls. -- [[Image:User_Kirbman sig.png]] Kirbman 21:31, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

PvP Henchmen and Heroes in Guild Halls - 30 October 2009
Thanks for the quick response to player concerns on this issue.

It is especially helpful to see information like this when ANet doesn't yet know how or whether the relevant issues will be addressed. I prefer to see shorter and more frequent bursts of info rather than fewer, more thorough posts. &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 21:47, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Steward's Away
Ok, interesting. Question, are the Skeletons in UW a permanent feature now, Regina? <font color="Black">000.00.00.00 02:01, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * And why the Steward still comes back? I thought the event was over.... - <font color="#000;">J.P. [[File:User J.P. sigicon.png]] <font color="#000;">Talk  02:05, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * And who said the Steward is returning as part of the event and not some new feature to the Underworld or something else? Maybe we'll see Thorn's little cottage with a bunch of candy men. -- Konig/ talk 05:23, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Because they just didn't finish it on time for Halloween. Their initial notes were talking about a series of a new quests for Halloween, no hints about anything that extends past it. But I guess the deadline has been extended a little bit now... [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 14:08, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * On a minor note: there are plenty of people standing around the Voice of Grenth waiting for the quest to update.  People aren't aware it's going to be days, not hours, before it's ready.  You might want to get someone to look into a way of informing people... <font color="Black">000.00.00.00  00:44, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

The Waiting game
Hi Regina, any known day about when Dhuum is finally going to wake up? or in other words when will the waiting game quest continue? i would love if you announce it now so ppl could actually prepare for it MarioDX 18:08, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You're (or at least should be) preparing for it now. The Reapers will call you when the time comes. &mdash; User_Poki_sig.png Poki#3  (<font color="#8B0000">talk ) 18:31, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I've had this question since the first time I read the quest dialogue: how the f* are we supposed to prepare for this? O_o Other than the obvious max armor/weapons, are we supposed to buy out every skill in the game, or what? [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 18:43, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe they want us to sign our characters to work out? i heard the new "Bear Club for Men" has opened up. now seriously Regina ask the team and post you answer here, ppl wanna know
 * I'll give you an answer: "When it's done". Have some suspense and patience man... And Rose, have some imagination ^^; &mdash; User_Poki_sig.png Poki#3  (<font color="#8B0000">talk ) 21:34, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The smell of public annoyance in LA has the nasty ability to dumb down immersion. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 22:20, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah yes... Personally I prefer the smell of mahogany in my Guild Hall, and try to avoid the more crowded places if I can. &mdash; User_Poki_sig.png Poki#3  (<font color="#8B0000">talk ) 23:17, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok seriously, what is going on with the quest? MarioDX 12:19, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't mind waiting, not for the sake of waiting anyway. I found it quite fun the way it was called The Waiting Game ... what spoils the fun for me is the fact I'm scared that I won't be here to do the quest. Not knowing when it is, or for how long it'll be available, means I'm fretting (and I assume others may be too) for that fact. Not for actually being forced to wait.
 * If someone had said "the quest will, we won't say when, but it'll be available for a whole week to finish!" then I wouldn't complain, or fret much. But right now, I don't know if it'll be available for a weekend, or worse, just a day (like Mad King's appearance at the end of Halloween) ... or anything really.
 * - Kherec 13:25, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * hey Regina? do you have an answer? MarioDX 16:00, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * He is now awake and waiting for you after completing the UW quests... --[[Image:Mesmer-tango-icon-200.png|25px]] <font color="Purple" face="cambria">Sparafucile 15:56, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Shadow form
"This was not an attempt to address all of the concerns about Shadow Form Assassins. That will happen in the next major skill update, which will include big changes to Shadow Form and may also include changes to other prominent farming skills."

I'll believe it when I see it. You (Anet) have shown time and time again that you "think" you're fixing things, but in reality you don't do anything to actually stop the problem, just make it slightly harder to do (oh noes, I have 1 second to push this button instead of 2 seconds but I can still be permanently invincible lulz!!). I have absolutely no faith that permanent invincibility will ACTUALLY be stopped... and EVEN IF IT IS... it's much too late. This has been a problem for nearly a YEAR now. A YEAR to fix the OBVIOUS broken game mechanic of "permanent invincibility." It's too little WAY too late. You've already lost at least one customer for GW2 right here. I refuse to buy any future NCSoft games, including GW2, and will be sure to discourage everyone I know irl and on every message board I attend from purchasing GW2 or other NCSoft games because of how terrible and slowly game "problems" are treated. &mdash; The preceding unsigned comment was added by 173.79.39.237 (talk) at 05:15, 21 November 2009 (UTC).
 * Such anger. It's a game. I remember when games didn't get "fixed," at all. In fact, that wasn't that long ago, you should remember it too... ( Satanael |  talk ) 08:17, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * On a vaguely related note, Regina, I was wondering about that little bit you posted on your blog as well. I've never much cared about SF one way or the other, but I have always cared about the playability of GW for people who want it to be playable the normal way. Sure, the addition of Dhuum has significantly slowed down SF groups, but did the team seriously consider the doability and playability for other classes? For balanced groups?<BR>
 * For people who want to play UW the normal way (and those still exist!) it already took some time, and the way some of the quests work (or work after the recent updates) hasn't made this easier. Now that we need to beat Dhuum too before we're done with the UW I expect it to take significantly longer than before. It sounds like a good challenge and I'll be giving it a go, but I get the feeling that while the update was well-intended it wasn't entirely well thought out in some respects. I guess right now the wait is for all the community feedback to come in- and I'm sure the feedback from the "normal" players will be interesting to see. :)<BR>
 * On a more light-hearted note, does this mean we can expect to be running into Menzies in FoW in the future? ;) -- [[Image:User_Elveh_sig.png|15px]] Elv 11:52, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong builds will always exist. Full time computer game players will always profit above average. The problem is that nerfing farm builds unfairly targets those who haven't completed farming based goals that the game offers. SF provides invincibility only under certain conditions and has a limited damage output. It is useful, yes, but do you want all useful builds removed from the game to make it a place where only the worst freaks can reach their goals? And actually most of them have already reached them, so do you want to get rid of the normal casual farmers by making things hard to the extreme? If you look at the skill list of the first printed GW manuals and compare it with today, you would think it's another game. "Normal" players get significantly less drops, affront more intelligent foes and even if they succeed after a year to get their character "Ursan" or "SF" ready to make some money they have to restart from 0, finding what is used after the nerf, getting ready to use it, to finally see the skill nerfed before they can even start using it... Permanently changing the game according to the "needs" of the 10hrs/day player is unfair to all the others. At least the daily changes caused by PvP is over now. Changing and discussing the rules all the time may be fun, but doesn't make the game better. When have the chess rules be changed last time? In GW the Queens would have been nerfed already 10 times :) --- Marcus The Cube
 * None of that simply addresses the fact that perma-invincibility is simply wrong and should not exist under any circumstances. God mode is bad especially when that god mode only applies to 1 profession. -- Salome   [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 13:13, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Funny how people who do nothing but farm never complain with the truth. We never see a farmer coming here to say...
 * "I like a game in which someone who can only play one hour per day makes ten platinum per day and I make 100 platinum, regardless of who's more skilled, so I can inflate prices way over the reach of the majority of players as I and my hardcore farmers friends can buy desirable items for unrealistic prices"
 * "I like how I can beat the hardest areas of the game by using a team build in which no one has to think in order to accomplish anything, rather repeat the same steps over and over. I like how casual players who are just trying to have fun in those areas don't even understand what we're saying when we ask for specific team roles, and how we kick them from our groups when they don't have the exact build we want"
 * "I like pushing prices up by using items like ectoplasm as money; when we artificially increase their value like this, we keep those items outside the reach of casual players and so we know we're really 1337 when we wear our FoW armor dyed black with Chaos Gloves"
 * No, instead farmers come here and say "think of the poor casual players who wouldn't waste their time farming, rather having fun who won't be able to grind as much regardless of how I grind much more, so I end with far more gold anyway and so won't be able to buy all the stuff I they want but can't have since plenty of prices are artificially increased ". Erasculio  13:31, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Casual or not, ArenaNet will have a tough time making a relentlessly honest inventory of the current player base. Those people playing the game do have fun, no matter how silly "Invincibility Grinding" appears to the rest. The problem are not the people whose only motivation has become greed and the pursuit of 10.000:1 dropchances in endchests. The problem remains with the rest, those people who feel disenfranchised when they see ArenaNet dangling a carrot in front of their face they know has insane requirements only this other group of people can meet. Lashing out on forums is the natural reaction to that in 2009. But new bossfights and new endchests are just the thing to excite anybody really. But when people find out that the chest at the end of a dungeon is basically worthless because any decent item's drop rate has been reduced to zero in an effort to stop 7 minute speed clearers from killing the rarity of said skins, then people just leave. Why play that? Sure, kill Dhuum once with the guild, but the replay value is zero except you are into those final three titles that only 6000 platinum can buy. We do not need THE ONE way to play a dungeon and tear the community apart over what exactly THE ONE way is. We need incentives to deviate from farmgrinding. Show a regular non-farmgrinding player that his non-self-destructive efforts are treasured just as much. That no caste of supergrinders is making all skins but a few dirt cheap. That "normal" players are rewarded and that the game actively tries to connect them to other players for meaningful non-class-discriminatory play. The Zaishen Quests showed that this was possible. Look at all the weird missions people are playing again. Buying weapons with Zaishen coins is great. I want that 38 Gold Crystalline, because it tells people that I did play with other people fair and square to earn that. Find me a gold item that can communicate the same thing! You want SF gone from UW? Remove the chest, remove the ectos. You want people to play UW and get killer rewards? Make it a Zaishen Quest: Defeat Dhuum, Bonus: Have no class twice in your team. Bonus 2: Do it without PvE skills. Bonus 3: HM ladies! You might still want to bring the right skills to this "elite" area now, but at least there is going to be more than one gimmick build. At least it is no longer about smashing my head against a brick wall in eight minute intervals for half a year. At least the normal people (not the casuals!) are no longer confronted with some extreme players ruining any reward-balance there might have been beyond the non-grindy titles. Do not nerf to kill builds and annoy people! Incentivice diversity. If sologrinding is too effective and becomes too dominant, then reward other things more.--4thvariety 14:29, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I didn't read that last WoT, but I would like to add to the "casual" playerbase complaint. I've never used godmode sins, I made one, but I've never used it, go figure. I've tried getting into competent player groups yesterday (with a necro), groups where most players have completed UW before, where newbies actually listened to instructions (OMG can you believe it?), and we even used full consets, personal cons, team management, and anything else you can think of for an average balanced team who has a clue, and we were unable to finish 4 times in a row, after spending a few hours on the whole thing. The vast majority of party search is for the new "mobway" which is still full of assassins, and is still by far the fastest way to complete UW. Yes, you made it harder for speed-clears, but it just slowed down everyone, and assassins in godmode are still by far the prevalent group. The same people are still making all the ectos and all the new minis/scythes. And even if you "fix" SF in the near future, as promised, this will make UW such a pain in the ass (5 hours for a small chance of paying off? nty...) for everyone, that anyone who had a stock of ectos (again, your godmode farmers) will become instantly several times richer, and others will be even more pissed than before. Way to go. :/ [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 15:45, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I hope they do merely change the functionality of Shadow Form as opposed to just nerfing it so it doesn't work, replacing a bad skill with a good one is better than just replacing a bad skill.--Orry 16:05, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, I can't believe that people are actually complaining about ANet creating a challenge for us, that's absurd. Kali, were you around or do you remember when Tombs first came out? It took months before people thought to use rangers to clear it. For the longest time the most common team build was to bring 5 echo nukers and just outblast the place, sure it took 2+ hours and hardly ever worked, but that was the only way people could figure to do it at all. In the first couple of days after Tombs came out, nobody could figure out a quick and easy way to clear it. Dhuum has been out for how long? You're right, maybe nobody has figured out a reliable, quick way to clear UW yet, but that's why it's called an elite area, and figuring that out is part of the fun of doing it.
 * I speak as a casual player, whose greatest achievement is having enough 4 year-old characters to have gotten almost a complete set of minis without buying any of them. I have never farmed anything, and don't care to. If ANet wants to make UW harder for farmers, and that ends up challenging me as well, I say bring it on. If given the choice between chess and checkers, I will take chess every time. If given the choice between a rubik's cube and a form board, I'll take the rubik's cube every time. Thank you ANet, for giving me a challenge that doesn't take 30 seconds to figure out. I'm glad that I can go to UW now and not have to conform exactly to some well established team build from which no can deviate if they want to play. I can now show up with the character I want and the build I want, and people will be willing to try it. ( Satanael |  talk ) 17:52, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Rofl... First of all, don't compare 2 hours to 5 hours+fail cus some reaper somewhere died. Second, people HAVE figured out the "new" UW: it's called "mobway" and consists of a buttload of sins, again. Third, Tombs was new, UW is far from it, and got hardly changed. Last, how many "balanced" groups enter the UW now for every "mobway" group? I just wonder how long it will take before people figure out the "next best thing" to clear UW after SF gets nerfed, it'll just go from one thing to another (like Obsi-tank, for example), unless they change more than spawn locations and adding some skeles. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 18:15, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Mobway is just what they have figured out for now, just like the 5 ele builds at tombs before they figured out BP. At some point some genius will figured out a better way to clear it, and that will become the build du jour. So you're right, it will just move from one thing to the next, but that's the nature of the game, and can't be changed. With 1300+ skills and enough time, someone is going to figure out the "best" way to clear UW no matter what, and people are always going to levitate to that.
 * All I'm saying is that the intent was just to mix things up a bit, give us a puzzle to figure out, and it seems obvious to me that it was successful in that regard. It won't take 5 hours forever, so just relax and try to be that genius that cracks the puzzle for everybody. or if you don't like puzzles, then wait for somebody else to figure it out, I bet it won't take that long. ( Satanael |  talk ) 18:28, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You say it like anything that is better than mobway isn't going to have groups consisting of permanent invincibility, which is as far away from reality as it can get. Optimism only works if it actually adheres in some way to reality, not building sand castles in the air, nor making presumptuous and ridiculous claims. Pika Fan 19:11, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Post SF-nerf, what exactly would that permanent invincibility be? The truth is, I have no idea what it would be, but I don't think "permanent invincibility" is a forgone conclusion. There are a lot of possible builds out there, and believe it or not, it is possible to beat even the toughest areas without SF or some similar super-armor skill. ( Satanael |  talk ) 06:44, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * "Possible" and "reasonable" aren't the same. Having to spend several hours more on something is not reasonable, when it can be done much faster with a broken gimmick build. Thus, we have the "gimmickers" and the rest who don't even bother. Because of all the gimmick builds, some areas have been made tougher to counter the gimmick farming, but all that did was put the non-gimmickers further and further out of play in such areas, and inflate the prices of the farmed items. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 14:35, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The game rule changes are extremely unfair as they punish only those that haven't had the chance to use these "strong" skills. So it's not a surprise that primarily those that have full stacks of ectos because of using these farm methods advocate for stopping that abuse as they are afraid that the economy will devaluate their precious items if also the mob starts to farm them... Marcus The Cube
 * Let's be clear here, there is absolutely possitively no possible way to prevent people from coming up with "gimmick" builds. All they are doing there is finding the most efficient way of going through an area. You can not force people into balanced groups. So there will always be the choice between going with the gimmick build and getting it done in 5 minutes, or going with a balanced group and taking your time.
 * As you say, the balanced groups right now take a long time, a very long time in some cases. But that won't last forever either. Even the balanced groups will find better ways of doing it. Even if you are not putting together a gimmick team, you can still choose some skills over others, and that means you can find a better way of doing it.
 * All I'm saying is that yes, the way people have been doing it lately doesn't work without taking too much time, so try another way. Figure it out, that's the point of the game. That's why we play GW, which forces us to be strategic about our skill choices, and not WoW, which let's us bring every skill with us wherever we go.
 * You have to remember, this place has been up for less than a week. You have to be patient. I virtually garauntee that in a month's time, even the balanced groups will have figured out how to beat Dhuum in a reasonable amount of time. ( Satanael |  talk ) 18:37, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Virtually guarantee? Really? I realize that there's always a more efficient way of doing something. The problem here is that there is one way that does it EXTREMELY efficiently, while any other way if basically a waste of time, because some reaper or the Iceman will get killed for their own stupidity, and all the people who just spent several hours trying this, ragequit and don't want to return anytime soon. The problem here is that this area puts a glaring emphasis on the differences between gimmick and not, and this problem was repeatedly "solved" not by weakening/removing the gimmick, but by making the area harder and harder, so that it's becoming harder for the gimmick, but... Eh, whatever, you shoul've gotten the point by now. <font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 19:20, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Have to agree with Rose here. Just ran two unsuccessful tries through the UW. Let me make one thing very clear here- I was on an experienced guild team, running a balanced build. None of us were new to the UW and I don't think we had any "bad" players. The problem is that while the new version of UW slows down the gimmicky invinci-team, it makes it near impossible for any other sort of team to play it (we wiped thanks to NPC deaths both times, and both times from the new and insane damage spiking some of the foes come with). I don't have a problem with gimmicky builds per se, but I do have a problem when it's really the only way to efficiently play anything. If the difference between gimmick and non-gimmick becomes several hours of playtime (or simply success vs failure), then the gimmick is overpowered. The solution to that in not to make the area harder or make it take longer, because that does not by any means solve the problem at the core: the time difference. It remains the same, or it grows, or it turns into success/failure.<BR>
 * Regina proudly commented that perma teams took 85 minutes to clear the UW now, which I'm sure is wonderful if that was the only effect of the changes to UW. Unfortunately it's not only significantly increased play times for any other teams, it's also made it an insane amount harder. Frankly, the UW didn't need to be harder (FoW however could do with a little more spice), and the only significant result I see so far is that people are feeling more forced to resort to the gimmick, rather than trying something else.<BR>
 * I'll be giving this a few more tries, but thus far I've not even come anywhere near Dhuum. If ANet's trying to tackle the issue of speed clears, it's going to need to take a completely different approach than the current one. This one only punishes the people trying to play something non-gimmicky, it doesn't do much for improving the game. -- [[Image:User_Elveh_sig.png|15px]] Elv 19:53, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * As much as i do agree that its alot harder to complete, having spent a couple of days completely dedicated to the task with no luck so far, I would add that it is an elite area, and therefore intentional difficult, and that it has been far easier to find people willing to join a 'balanced' group than before. Tidas 02:40, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * There's a difference between intentionally difficult and virtually impossible without a gimmicky build, though. DoA was a big failure in that respect, because it's very unfriendly towards certain professions. UW was still difficult but a lot more doable, and required less rigid standards of what you brought into it. (Which, in my opinion, made it more fun- you felt free to actually try things.) It may now be easier to find a random balanced team (I usually play in guild groups, so I couldn't say), but what does that really mean if none of these teams has any real chance of success? Nothing- absolutely nothing. Suppose there used to be 10 balanced teams going per day, and it's 50 now. That sounds great, but not if you realise that the success rate might have been 50% before, and less than 2% now. I think 5/10 successful teams beats 1/50 successful teams. I wouldn't even want to try going in with a random team now; the likelihood that people will rage or run into time constraints before the end is far too high. Did I mention that the NPCs in UW just love to launch kamikaze attacks onto the new and "improved" mobs, making their survivability practically 0? -- [[Image:User_Elveh_sig.png|15px]] Elv 08:54, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I haven't read most of the discussion, but I can already say that Rose is right. Basically, take what I told Cyan: "Yeah, I forgot that when I select a Hard difficulty, and then I cheat my way through it, it's no big deal. I mean, why actually make something a challenge if you can Gameshark your way through it, right?". Making Hard difficulty INSANE, but still not dealing with Godmode, destroys the casual player and rewards the farmers and abusers. Fixing an entire game around an imbalanced skill is just retarded at best. You can say many things about SF, and imbalanced is certainly one of them. As Shard also said, the process of clearing UW and then killing Dhuum is long and unfair for the average team, so it basically leaves many teams no choice but to use Shadow Form. Congratulations Anet, you got what you wanted: embracing gimmicked grinders instead of casual players. Many of my friends already left GW and you a long time ago, and even talked to people buying your game in video stores, telling them about the true state of the game now. One of my friends even told me when reading some Feedback on GWW: "Even if they do fix SF now, it's too late. Their snowball is a mountain now." And he's right - that's what happens when you let the problems slip between your fingers, and you deal with other problems in a retarded way. Sooner or later, a chunk of casual players that will try to play the game will face the wall you built so nicely over the last years, and they will quit. Is that really what you want? I can guess there is a 99.8% probability no one from A.net will even see this, but that's not big of a change too, huh? <font color="#92000a">Titani  <font color="#92000a">Ertan  05:47, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * While it's sad, I've to agree with Rose & Titani. Anet only enforced the use of Shadow Farm with the lastest UW update. M3G [[Image:User_M3G_Pumpkin.png‎| 19px | ]] 09:39, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I read the whole discussion but I still have to disagree, I think all these updates to the Underworld are good and all in all, helped the game:
 * Before Dhuum came out, I've seen about 1 or max 2 groups trying to enter Underworld and they usually ended right at the beginning anyway, because there were not even 8 players willing to join the party, everyone was just looking for UWSC.
 * However, after these updates that made UWSCing significantly harder and added new content to the Underworld, the situation changed, these days when you come to Temple of Ages, you will usually find about the same number of Mobway groups as Normal teams easily forming their party, I am not saying this will not change over time, but at the moment its true.
 * I agree that Underworld is now more difficult for everyone and takes long to complete, but well, it was never meant to be some easy area and it always should be one of the hardest areas in the game even before this update, and 3 hours for completing the hardest area in the game still seems very reasonable to me.
 * I'd also like to say an example of my own self, honestly, I am not any hardcore 1337 farmer nor PvPer, I just play the game for fun and do anything that seems like a fun or a good challenge of skill to me. The Underworld always seemed like such a good challenge to me, but because of the Shadow Form UWSC, I wasn't able to ever find a serious group of players (they just usually left after capping a spider in Vale heh). After this update however, non-UWSC groups became possible to make because even players who don't use perma sins want to fight the newly added God Dhuum and have their chance of dropping some of the rare items from the end chest. Additionally, even permas are now more likely to join a normal group because the time of UWSC is (according to Regina) about 1,5 hour being roughly "only" twice as fast as a normal group (it was about 2 hours against 10 minutes before the recent UW updates!) and some of them prefer working with a normal team (more fun) even at cost of a bit more challenge (the difference is a bit more acceptable). So although I am not very experienced (I NEVER completed UW before this update), I am now able to find a group easily and eventually win about 50% of time even with a non-perma character (ele,necro,para,whatever..).
 * My main point is that these updates were in my opinion certainly not a bad step as everyone seems to think, yes it maybe could be even better, but don't say it was bad, because it was actually very good ;)
 * On a last note, to the topic of Shadow Form, we all know this skill was a bad idea, but now it could make actually even more harm if it would be removed, I don't say I agree with that skill, I also think it certainly should be significantly nerfed, but nerfing it to death could be a bad idea and make things even worse (no news either). Anet has recently shown very good attempts to effectively reduce the overpoweredness of Shadow Form at least in UW and therefore I trust them on the line:
 * "This was not an attempt to address all of the concerns about Shadow Form Assassins. That will happen in the next major skill update, which will include big changes to Shadow Form and may also include changes to other prominent farming skills."
 * All I can say is good job so far, keep up the good work. I am looking forward for that update.
 * Btw long wall-o-text is long, but I just wanted to share my point of view with you, so any comments appreciated! ;)
 * ***EAGLEMUT***  T  A  L K 12:35, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I read your first few lines, and I knew you were wrong. Making an entire elite area harder, when it's already "balanced" around an overpowered skill is wrong. You need to check your numbers again. They're wrong, and so are you. <font color="#92000a">Titani [[image:User Titani Ertan chrome.png|Uth]] <font color="#92000a">Ertan  13:54, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * If they would just make it harder it would be wrong.. but they added super expensive rewards for the completion, so making the area harder was also reasonable. ***EAGLEMUT***   T  A  L K 14:17, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Wrong. They just awarded speed-clears, while not fixing the reason why normal parties couldn't complete it in reasonable time. <font color="#92000a">Titani [[image:User Titani Ertan chrome.png|Uth]] <font color="#92000a">Ertan  14:19, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Who decides what a reasonable time is? Tidas 14:23, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * A reasonable time is reasonable. Game balancers should know what that is. <font color="#92000a">Titani [[image:User Titani Ertan chrome.png|Uth]] <font color="#92000a">Ertan  14:25, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Common sense? You shouldn't have to be in a dungeon for 5 hours. Even WoW raids aren't that long. On the other hand, you shouldn't be in a dungeon for 7 minutes, either, which is the problem with SF and ursan before it. Reasonable is 1-2 hours, depending on how much content there actually is. Given that UW has only a handful of quests, an hour is plenty of time. All of UW should be balanced so that a relatively balanced team can beat it in a little over an hour without serious problems. The dungeon shouldn't be balanced around shadow form beating it in an hour (which it currently is). - Auron 14:29, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yet in terms of content I never reach the point in a uw run where it feels like we are just doing the exact same thing over and over, ignoring Dhuum of course, which for me it would seem the only way to make it faster would be to make it so even balanced groups roll through every single enemy, which would defeat purpose of it being difficult. Tidas 14:43, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * What I understood from what you said was "UW shouldn't be balanced because that won't be difficult". Stop being bad and come back. <font color="#92000a">Titani [[image:User Titani Ertan chrome.png|Uth]] <font color="#92000a">Ertan  14:45, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Define balanced in terms of PvE, forgive me for being so bad but I've completely lost sight of what you hate about the new uw, you want it to be easier? Or you just want it to be equally difficult but without the enemies using monster skills? Yes the skeletons were brought in for the sole purpose of stopping permas, but its not like they cause other groups any great problems. Tidas 14:50, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Want it retarded way? Fine: SF. Bad. UW. OP. More challenge=Dhuum? No. More challenge=more difficulty? No. Balance UW around balanced teams? Yes. New SF? Plz. Do. You. Under.-Stand. <font color="#92000a">Titani [[image:User Titani Ertan chrome.png|Uth]] <font color="#92000a">Ertan  14:53, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Sf bad, agree. I am looking forward to a new SF. What my retarded self fails to grasp is how you want uw balanced around balanced teams. Getting rid of the skeletons and dhuum along with the rest of the update just because it made uw harder? Tidas 15:01, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Like you balance anything else. <font color="#92000a">Titani [[image:User Titani Ertan chrome.png|Uth]] <font color="#92000a">Ertan  15:03, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Entering UW and actually having a remote chance to finish it are different things. Recognizing a problem does not require a solution, it can't preclude anyone from stating that there is a problem in the first place. You can't say AIDS doesn't exist just because it can't be cured. Problem 1: UW is impossible for most "balanced" groups, unless they have much previous experience and very powerful builds to begin with, which is not as common as it may seem. Groups that can finish any other elite area without much difficulty, even in HM, simply choke in the "new" UW, which was updated to simply counter 7-minute speed clears and nothing else. Problem 2: the "new" UW can still be done by permasins (mobway) in 20% of the time than any "balanced group" could ever hope for, making it the build choice of the day. The majority of permasins that join balanced are the ones who don't have enough experience and are easily exposed and kicked from mobway groups, but still want a cut of the cool new stuff. Problem 3: the newest update made problem 1 more apparent and problem 2 slightly slower to farm, but hasn't fixed anything. Problem 4: permasins are still the vast majority who can earn the rewards given by the endchest and get the shots at the new drops. Problem 5: all these "balanced" teams that form every minute in ToA are simply the rush for new content that will die off exponentially in the next 2 weeks or so, because virtually none of them stand a chance of even seeing Dhuum. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 15:22, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * There are only 2 REALLY hard things in UW right now: this and this. Respectfully because it requires a 2 and (practically) a 3 way split. Splitting isn't the bad thing on itself, since balanced groups should be able to split a bit, but the game throws too much at the players. 1 healer (assuming 2 healers in the party) can't heal multiple elementalists and skeletons, with the presence of 2 boss-like mesmers. In the other example, groups spawn all over the place, and don't give any time to react. You have to scatter and draw the fire on multiple people, risking much and still not ensuring you won't accidentally let something through. The opposition you encounter during those quests is just too big. I did it with a guild party, with a Shadow Form tank that took it upon himself to secure one side, while the rest of the party battled on the other side(s - Wastes was still nerve wracking, but scattering 7 people to cover 2 spawns is still manageable somehow). Aside from that, the time spent doing UW comes from the size of the area, running back and forth to do quests one at a time, and sometimes from the big numbers of foes that you have to kill in order to get from point A to point B safely - not from being overly difficult. &mdash; User_Poki_sig.png Poki#3  (<font color="#8B0000">talk ) 20:46, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

The first part you described is exactly the "overly difficult" part for most players, especially coupled with NPC's who die like flies as soon as they're aggroed, and cause the entire thing to fail. Running around isn't so bad, the Reapers can teleport the whole party, but the "sheer number of foes" is quite annoying and time consuming, it's hard to find paople who can willingly dedicate a minimum of 4 hours straight, and this just becomes tiresome in addition to the difficulty and high chance of failure on the mentioned quests. <font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 20:58, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought this entire halloween/dhuum fiasco was the shadow form nerf. I remember Linsey saying they were trying to end UWSCing without hurting SF itself.  Apparently we've switched tracks.  Let's hope the nerf satisfies everyone so we can end the cry-baby warfare over this.  And so I never have to see another "i'm gonna force the entire world not to buy GW2 becuase GW1 made me so mad ;_;" post.  Humans aren't idiots, just because it took a year doesn't mean the possibility of an appropriate nerf is crossed out.  Furthermore I can't believe you're here spouting your ragequit angst after the Dhuum nerf...  "Wow, they just totally destroyed the Assassiconomy like I demanded them to.  My ectos will double in price.  Not only that, but they're going to nerf Shadow Form again and this time with actual players giving actual input that will actually be listened to!   I'm never buying another NCsoft product ever again!"  I really hate resorting to this but I think QQ sums things up perfectly.  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:40, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * (Edit conflict*4)Sorry for the late reply but I was PUGing UW all the day and didn't have much time to discuss :P
 * So I herd a reasonable time is reasonable.Well I think a reasonable time is something else for everyone so we can't ever agree on that.
 * On Auron's comment, I think you are mostly right, however balancing UW into a one-hour thing would be in my opinion terribly hard right now, it would either make the permas do it in ~30 seconds or if you would like it balanced for really everyone, that would require the entire anet team working hard on it for a very long time and I think there are far worse issues to spend their precious time in (like fixing the Shadow Form itself finally). What they did is not a way to 100% fix this, thats for sure, but I also think it's better than to do nothing at all.
 * On one of Titani's comments,"What I understood from what you said was "UW shouldn't be balanced because that won't be difficult". Stop being bad and come back." From what I understood, he meant that the only fast balance to fix to UW right now would be making all foes level 1(3 in Hard Mode) and the only real fight here being the Dhuum. And all in all, I'd like to quote Tidas's reply:Getting rid of the skeletons and dhuum along with the rest of the update just because it made uw harder? that is exactly the point, do you really, HONESTLY think that UW would be better if they would revert all the updates? Well, if you do, you have surely not been there.
 * And finally to Rose, I agree on some parts and disagree and others;
 * Problem 1: Well,I would really believe what you're saying here unless I wouldn't face the truth myself, which I did. As I maybe already said, I am just some everyday guy who surely don't have loads of previous experience but more like only common info (don't take all quests from Reaper of Labyrinth..), I am not using any super-imba-powerful builds, I went there with my primary char (Elementalist with 446HP - heck yeah, I use 2 super runes) and brought a single bar like Searing Flames or Blinding Surge (which I started using about 2 weeks ago), I also did not bring any Overpowered PvE skills with me, just random fire/air damage skills.I have not yet completed DoA/Deep/whatever (no people ever come here) so I unfortunately don't have much to say on the last part.
 * Problem 2: I mostly agree with this.However if what Regina said is true, and assassins need at least about 75mins now, its really not 20% but more like 40%.Mobway is still the build choice of the day, but before the update, UWSC was the only build ever playing here, not only best build choice of the day.The second part is usually true just as you say.
 * Problem 3:(I assume by newest update you mean only Dhuum) Well, yes, just as you're saying, but while it didn't really fixed anything, it made speed clearing at least more comparable to normal teams. Srsly, 12 mins against 2 hours seems worse than 75 mins against 3 hours to me (just my opinion, you may have a different one if you think 3 hours is not reasonable time).
 * Problem 4: True, but they said they will fix this issue in their next big skill update, they already confirmed this was not meant to fix everything in Guild Wars, its more like a quick emergency fix while figuring out how to fix the issue more.
 * Problem 5:This may, and may not become true, I already said I don't think it will be like this forever, now there are two ways: 1.: Assassins have taken over the Underworld. Any other living creature has no chance to survive here. 2.: Humans will find some kind of viable build and there will be both Normalways and Asaways living in peace (not very likely IMO). Some other builds like Ritway and such also have a small chance of proving useful now.To be honest I don't think there is a big chance to beat Assassins, but now there is at least some chance. Bringing up a tactic to kill Dhuum easily could, for one example, change the effect of this update greatly.The last sentence is already quite answered in problem 1.. I was writing this while Poki's and below comments weren't there so I won't comment them.. yet :P ***EAGLEMUT***   T  A  L K 22:29, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Try again. <font color="#92000a">Titani [[image:User Titani Ertan chrome.png|Uth]] <font color="#92000a">Ertan  19:14, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Man, you guys are pansies. You think UW is hard?  Go watch some bullet hell videos on AdobeFlashTube.  That's hard.  Better yet, play a real man's game, like the Playstation 2 or Magic.  –Jette [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 12:25, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * And you're bringing Bullet hell shooters into the equation because...? Mokou, smite him for me will ya? Aya, you can take pictures. &mdash; User_Poki_sig.png Poki#3  (<font color="#8B0000">talk ) 23:22, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No Touhou allowed in my Guild Wars, thanks. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 21:30, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * To be honest just give us ursan back then everyone can farm the shit out of UW and every were else. yay all classes can play agian +1Zanarov 21:04, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * All I have to say is that if A-net does in fact nerf Shadow Form to the fact of no farming ability, no more running, etc. then myself and many other dedicated players will turn our heads and go somewhere else. It is rediculous that a-net nerfs Shadow Form so much. Do they not realize that using shadowform is what most players do now, as there are no more other updates or new releases. Why don't they just focus on GW2 and leave GW alone.
 * I agree on one thing with you, they did let ShadowFarm too long in game without reacting. Then many players got used to it and will probably rage quite like you, but for the sake of the game they need to change it. At least they were more reactive with ursan (still took 6 months)... M3G [[Image:User_M3G_Pumpkin.png‎| 19px | ]] 14:34, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * You aren't very dedicated if you rage because Anet nerfs your abusive build. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig2.jpg|19x19px]] 20:25, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

About those "changes to other prominent farming skills"
Sounds like a pretty obvious reference to 600/smite. Please remind the devs to kindly bear in mind that PS and SB are vital staple skills in many, many non-farming contexts. These skills should probably not be messed with, or, if you absolutely must, messed with in an extremely cautious manner. I would much rather see the smite components of 600/smite nerfed into the ground, since no one uses those in non-farming contexts. -64.131.162.104 19:45, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You mean Holy Wrath? <font color="Black">000.00.00.00  19:51, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * PS could be nerfed to end after X attacks. -- -Chaos- (talk) -- 23:06, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * That would be pointless. PS is an anti-pressure skill, not an anti-spike skill.  So, in order to keep that role, it would have to have a relatively high incoming attack limit.  The thing is, it has a five-second recharge.  So, really, it'd still be easy to keep up during the early part of a SoA (the only time you need PS up; SoA easily kills even large packets of damage after a short while), if not indefinitely.
 * I think the best way to kill 600/smite would be to make PS, SoA, and SB easily interrupted in PvE, and then to nerf Mantra of Resolve. Even then, it'd still be possible with Protective Bond, but runs would go from 2-man to 4-man.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  00:06, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * i would rather do something with HW and retribution instead of those skills <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  00:54, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, I was just responding to the "nerf PS" comment - I'd also much rather see HW/Retribution nerfed. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  02:46, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * For me PS is what you put on yourself before running into a huge boss. Without having a further look at the builds (I don't really PvE), I'd suspect that doing that would just lead into reverse builds etc. -- -Chaos- (talk) -- 09:59, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * -- -Chaos- (talk) -- 12:02, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * a good nerf would be to have holy wrath end when the maintainer hits 0 energy. thats the strongest thing with it. but they're not going to nerf 600smite until they take care of shadow farm. -- adrin [[Image:User_Adrin_mysig.jpg|20px]] 12:05, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It'd just be maintained by several targets with insane energy management. -- -Chaos- (talk) -- 14:37, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Please stop trying to defend the death of EOTN. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:37, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You guys fuckin suck dude. i realise im gonna get into trouble with the whole NPA and shit but seriously. People spend HOURS every day farming so they can get the ridiculously overpriced crap on the market. the price is NOT gonna go down on the crap. way to keep the rich rich and poor poor. fuck you too ANet. Btw, i MAXED my asuran AND delver rep on SoO and Boggy farms. And i have NEVER ONCE even SEEN a frog scepter or BDS drop. Ive done this shit so many times its fucking mindnumbing and i still dont get shit out of these runs. Just because they can farm doesnt mean that theyre breaking the economy. So your gonna add 2 new minis and a new scythe that are worth like a thousand ectos each and no way to farm the ectos or anything worth that ammount of ectos. Your gonna make it so people have no way to earn this insane ammounts of money that people demand for high end gear. So noobs can stay noobs, and never have anything nice, and the elites can stay elites with all their elitist gear and shit. I personally have 5 or six sets of chaos gloves and more than one obby armor in my HoM but god fucking damn. stop stomping on the little people for fucks sake. their just trying to make a little money so they can have nice things. Jesus titty fuck. Heres an idea, instead of pissing players off and fucking with them by taking away any means to make money, why dont you spend a little less time introducing super expensive epic crap into the game that is just gonna make MORE money circulate around and introduce a REAL gold sink into this game instead of a piss-ass excuse for a gold sink like ectos. specially when people have 5-6 even 7 stacks of ectos just laying around from raping UWSC for days weeks and almost years on end. Make some of the elite weapons BUYABLE. make some obby armor that ACTUALLY LOOKS GOOD so that people will WANT IT instead of just getting it cuz they dont know what the fuck else to do with their shit ton of money. Ban me for NPA or w/e if you want but jesus fucking christ ANet. stop sucking the fucking fun out of EVERYTHING in this game. it USED to be really fun. i think im just gonna start maintaning my own WoW server and playing that. GG. Btw im starting a boycott on GW2. not gonna work but hey. i can try. Briar 20:52, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The above is a perfect example of how it's the players who are the most "hardcore" who complain about nerfs to farming, not the casual players. For the "little people", the less farmers out there earning 100k per hour and pushing all prices up (isn't it funny how everything expensive belongs to the player-drive market, not the fixed prices set by Arena Net?), the better. Erasculio  21:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Erascululio you need to learn to read dude. The people that are rich are ALWAYS gonna be rich. i have money and i know how to be smart with it so im gonna stay rich. its the poor people that are gonna get fucked over by this. Theyre gonna be left with no way whatsoever to make any money at all and theyre never gonna have anything nice because yes, there are more people like me, and yes, we do have reserves of cash for a rainy day or if we happen across something that we want. But the people that are just learning to perma or just starting out with cool and exciting farms are now immediatly gonna be fucked over and have to find some other way to make some money. This is just ANet taking another kidney shot at people that are trying to get more into this game. ANet doeesnt give a shit about the non-hardcore players. we who spend hours per day doing the same mindnumbingly stupid activities for shitty and stupid drops that in all honesty really dont look that good. I already have money. ive already attained every financial goal i wanted in this game. But because of nerfs to things like SF and dualmonk farming and stuff like that, now no one else will be able to reach my levels of wealth because they have no build and no place to farm. its fucking ridiculous how many cheapshots ANet takes at the little guy here. Briar 21:39, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It's very kind of you to bitch and moan on behalf of the little guy, but I think he'll be perfectly happy without UWSC. Also, "cool and exciting farms" made me lol. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 21:42, 25 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Have you ever seen a noob in his first SoOSC? i have. And i can tell you first hand. When your just starting a farm. it is in fact new and exciting. Briar 21:52, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * This is a new one, lol. What are you, some kind of Robin Hood? Anyway, just stopped by to say that Anet did not implement these high-end drops/armors to be farmed; that is something the community brought into itself. Y'know, characters were designed to be these epic heroes, Warriors of the light, powerful Magi who could control elements, etc. What has the community turned them into? Friggin' farmers. --[[Image:User Large sig.png|talk]] Large 21:53, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

- uh, how? That would be extremely cool. Erasculio 22:37, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC) And meanwhile, hardcore farmers like you would still farm ten times more than the other players, get ten times more gold and thus continue to inflate the prices outside the range of anyone who joins the game this year. There is no point in pretending this is a race in which the casual players can reach the hardcore farming-obsessed players - that is not going to happen. Arena Net has to nerf farming as much as possible and then wait until the gold held by those farmers is being slowly consumed, only then would casual players have easier access to some rare items. Ideally, they would drop the price of ectos by forcing the trader to sell it for 500 gold, which would solve a significant part of the problem, but of course that's something they would have to do without any prior warning.
 * Regardless, notice how those who are complaining are not the "little people", rather those with "5 or six sets of chaos gloves and more than one obby armor". That does speak wonders about who a nerf to farming would hurt...
 * (And hey, if we nerf Shadow Form everyone who's farming will have to start a new farm, which would be "new and exciting", right? So I guess everyone wins.) Erasculio  21:54, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Erasculio, are you a little person? :D Briar 22:02, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * As in, if I have five pairs of Chaos Gloves and a set of FoW armor in my HoM? No, I don't. Erasculio  22:04, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you ever want to stop being a little person? Have some nice things to make you e-peen feel big and manly? :D Briar 22:05, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Not really, no. I already have almost all the items I want, and the few I don't have I'll get eventually by just playing the game. My time playing GW is too limited to waste it farming; I would rather play to have fun instead. Erasculio  22:25, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Both of you please note that players can buy almost all skins for weapons and armors in exchange for Zaishen Coins. It is hard to get any more casual than that. Briar should really consider if he honestly believes most people take elusive drops that seriously. In my guild people seem more disgruntled about the time requirements of DoA or UW and less about the drop-rate of the endchest. Although those dangling carrots with their next to nothing chance get mocked quite a bit. It is like playing the lottery, just don't. I am also done with the casual vs. hardcore debate. That split is a lie. In reality there are people driven by greed and players driven by entertainment. With content updates greed players get new loot and impossa-grind achievements, while the entertainment crowd gets new quests and festivals. Hopefully some day we get a dungeon managing to get both sides together again, but for now Mobway greed-grinding has UW in its grips. Take out SF, drop 1.000.000 ectos, same problem, different day. Laid back people also know that a common skin can look far better on your character than the most expensive rarest skiped axe with dangling chains. Canthan Fire-Staff? Total beauty. Would not trade that for any other skin. Take out the obsession of wanting something rare and pricey to compete with other people suffering from inferiority complex and you will find, the Barbie doll gameplay of GW is very extensive and very affordable. Golddrops can't purchase having fun playing the game.--4thvariety 22:32, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * "players can buy almost all skins for weapons and armors in exchange for Zaishen Coins"
 * It isn't really, since you can't change gold into silver. :\ Vili &#x70B9; [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 22:38, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait, so that works for PvE characters too? I thought it was only for PvP characters. My, this is an extremely cool piece of news, thanks : D Erasculio  22:41, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Bah, it is for PvP characters only. You people suck D : Erasculio  22:46, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It does not work for PvE characters, but it is in the game. PvE players simply take their "awesomeness tax", i.e. Xunlai Tournament Points (hopefully they work again soon) and trade those Zaishen Keys for money with which they buy anything they could ever want. Red items for PvE players is simply the final frontier. A lot of people would be far happier with that than with grinding gold or getting lucky drops. There has to be no conflict between grinders and what you call casuals. The mindsets are so insanely different that it takes a weird MMO community for them to clash in the first place. My point being ArenaNet is doing the right things, some dots are simply not connected yet. It is hard, if not impossible trying to speak for regular players in the middle of an Ursan or SF flamewar, driven by people mistaking an RPG for an Economic Simulation. On a cynical day I might suggest to make one in 1000 green drops sparkle like the divine aura does. Could you imagine the forums the day after?--4thvariety 22:55, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I think anyone who is expecting the XTH to come back and is waiting for this to happen is just deluding themselves. It was fun while it lasted, but I think it's day has come and gone. There is absolutely NO reasonable reason why anyone needs to have 30 stacks of ecto in their inventory. I agree that if Anet would just force the trader price of ecto to 500g ea for an extended period of time, a lot of the disparity between hard core farmers and the casual player would cease to exist. However, I don't see them doing that, so the next best option would be to remove the "god modes" from the game and bring things back to a reality based system. I know... flame away. I do think that changing the UW is a good FIRST step, and I think the Live Team sees it as just that. I welcome changes that bring back some challenge to PvE play. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  23:22, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Reset. Lol i liked the guy that brought a PVP ONLY FEATURE into this conversation about PVE ONLY FARMING. that made me chuckle. Briar 23:29, 25 November 2009 (UTC) is that the people who have done nothing but UWSC for the past 6 months and have 30 stacks of ectos in their inventory are the only ones that can buy things like a req 9 BDS. There quite honestly is not anything in this game that is worth more than 200k, with the exception of the tournament reward minis, yet I see these outrageous prices being charged for stuff, and I see them all, as the Administrator of Guru Auctions, it blows my mind what some people ask for stuff. Those kinds of prices are just ridiculous, and do place ownership of those items out of the reach of probably 75% of the player base. The only reason they are that expensive is that people DO have these stacks and stacks of ectos from playing in god mode. The fact that running dungeons has become so easy due to the perma SF should mean that there are more of these rare items available, and yet after over 2 years, they are still just as expensive as ever. -- Wyn  talk  00:22, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
 * There is no such thing as a PvP only feature. There is only what players want and what they accept and what is placed outside their range for no reason. ArenaNet said skins were PvE exclusive for years until they noticed not even the PvE players were that jealous about it. They fixed it, it was great, the next step is already there. We should not dismiss that option when flaming about improvement of rewards. I also don't believe what Wyn said to be true about the benefits of trashing Ecto prices. Randomized rare drops make possession an expression of time spent until beating the dice-roll. Trade is using substitutes for that expression of time spent to enable transfer of ownership both sides agree to. Constant Ecto drop rates mean players can make the rarity of an item and the amount of Ectos interchangeable. Hence players trade one for the other. Gold for the most part has lost that ability since 100p roughly equal 5-10h which is nothing compared to the time you'd spend until some items drop. On top of that, people competing for scarce items drive the perceived value up and far beyond the 100p somebody at ArenaNet once thought of a sane limit (Note, you were right, it's just people are insane). Nerf SF and you only drive up perceived Ecto value and criple the ability of people to harvest time they then channel into the thing they really want (some rare drop). Griffons, Ectos or Bracelets are only proxy-items for the real item people want. People farm these proxies because others will accept them in trades and people find it easier to grind them, than to find a group raiding a dungeon → hence solo-farming dominance, no down time! The question at this point is, whether farming people would not be better served if they had a way to directly chase these items by other repetitive tasks tying them to the rest of the population. Wouldn't it be better to allow people to directly go for the items behind the curtain in some way. Because in all honesty, some of the “casuals” do not play less, they play differently. Less time spend solo-farming means less money. People playing more socially, more entertainment oriented and less inclined to repeating one thing over and over for the sake of cutting down the time requirements on items are getting the boot. They are not the little people! They are not the casual! They are simply not the ones grinding one spot for a week, because they rather help guildies, grow Twinks and do all sorts of crazy stuff. The game simply has no way to measure these efforts and reward them. The game heavily gravitates towards solo-farming. --4thvariety 23:57, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem with your theory "Trade is using substitutes for that expression of time spent to enable transfer of ownership both sides agree to."
 * Im sorry i didnt even read most of what you both posted after me, i stopped at "No such thing as a pvp only feature" Uhm... Try the insanely awesome skin of the meditative staff? not to mention the rest of the tolkano weapons? And also, hows about the fame, glade, codex, blah blah blah titles? which btw are harder than hell to work with because if your not already rank 4 or higher you CANT get into a decent group doing anything better than randomway in HA. >.> which is totally irrelavant to the SF conversation its just another pet peeve of mine.
 * I lold so hard that the room service checked in to see if I'm ok. @Briar- Thank you for the great joke, it was all good fun, especially when you played the part of the overzealous princess. Loved it, giving you a 10/10. @4thvariety- You did great in overturning the conflict, and making the crowd see the topic in a completely unrelated and wrong way; you were just marvellous! 10/10. Ok, show time is over; we can all be back to order again. <font color="#92000a">Titani [[image:User Titani Ertan chrome.png|Uth]] <font color="#92000a">Ertan  05:20, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
 * My question is. why? The farmers will still find ways. Ecto prices and black dye prices will still be high. If you nerf every skill to death. It won't change much. There's always ways. -- [[File:User Ariyen sig icon.gif]] riyen ♥ 06:18, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Short Version: @Wyn: People grind ectos, value goes down, hence really rare items cost more and more ectos. Just like gold in Griffon farming days. Only difference: ArenaNet artificially keeps price of ectos up instead of trashing them to 100g. As long as Ectos enter the economy at a faster pace than the items people want to buy with them, prices will increase. Basic economic law. Many items also exist for the sole reason of not everyone having them and keep people believe in a fake scarcity of resources situation. Another basic economic thing. Feeling of Entitlement → desire of ownership → descent into grind → removal of grind by Anet → E-Drama.

You see, nerfing skills is useless, it's like taking the bottle away from an alcoholic. People basically hate the fact they grind ectos to get what they really want. As a result you get high tension in farming groups and monster flame if an established method of gaining a rare item by means of farming a proxy is destroyed. Sure, you tell me now you have fun, but go to the mirror and say: “I farmed ectos for two years to get a line of green text and a glow-in-the-dark texture.” Feeling good, yet? Solution: Shift the desire of ownership away. Because people will still feel entitled to own that rare item reflecting their oh so rare snow-flake of a personality.

The problem now is merely how the game rewards certain activities over others. By a factor of five and more!!! Farming solo gets you ahead faster than playing socially. Exploiting a dungeon as a team gets you ahead faster. Playing the same thing over and over gets you ahead fastest. Power-Trading earns you the most money and for that to work YOU MAY NEVER lower your prices. Screw that gold economy! Extend the Zaishen Coin economy! The players who spent time to complete 20+ titles on their characters need an extension to the reward structure of their gaming style more than those who are beyond redemption anyway. SHIFT THE DESIRE.--4thvariety 10:14, 26 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Wise words. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 12:12, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Can I buy your writer and director? They deserve more. 19:15, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Nerfing in general
Overall I fully disagree with those frequent rule changes. Using the same logic I wonder what moves the Queen in a chess game would be allowed to do after the 500th nerf...

Either a game allows farming or not. Either a game gives incentive to farm solo or not. This is primarily determined by the loot drop behavior and not by the skills.

The GW world has always been a solo farm area. Teamplay has always been strongly discouraged by the games' loot scaling. Fine. But once that decision is made I don't see any good thing in removing skills that save those solo farmers time when doing their repetitive thing on and on and on and on and on... It's cruel to want people to waste even more of their time for that and of course primarily claimed by those that have already got the loot they wanted the "easy way" as they are afraid others may also get "rich".

Would you really like the game to nerf the farm builds in order that people have to sit 2 hours on their PC to get one ecto? Would that really make you happy?

You think you can get integrity by changing the rules weekly? Hmm, would you really like to have a guess each time when you step on a pedal in your car what will happen?

All this from a point of view of a regular GW player, casual player that would like to earn some money ingame must feel like a ping pong ball...Marcus The Cube


 * We know that players will not always agree with what our devs do, but I thank you for letting me know how you feel, nevertheless. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Regina Buenaobra (talk).

Regarding 600/Smite
Seriously.... I do understand that you want to nerf SF (I agree with that, it actually ruined UW for everyone else..), but why 600/Smite? It's not even close to SF in terms of speed and effectiveness. If you would nerf 600/Smiters and things related to it, you pretty much kill the last one of the more effective farm builds out there. Making money in GW is already such a big hassle, especially for new players. The only players that can make money fast are SC'ers, and not everyone wants/likes to SC. And I don't really like spending an hour to vanquish an area just to get 3k or something. If you were to nerf 600/Smite, then at least give us other/better alternatives. &mdash; <font color="#084961">DarK <font color="#010dfe">NeSS (<font color="#ff8a00">Contribs ) 10:35, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Why? You can make money just fine normally. The point of the high end items are for them to be, you know, high end. Professions shouldn't be able to speedfarm and buy anything they want within a day or two. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig2.jpg|19x19px]] 10:39, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * That's not what I'm talking about. I did get my Tormented Scythe in one day, but that was when the old Chaos Planes farmer was just out to the public. And I couldn't bring myself up to farm there any longer simply because it got boring. The whole point of farming itself gets boring after a while. There should be a better way to make money, without having to kill/farm the same area/mobs/whatever over and over again. &mdash; <font color="#084961">DarK <font color="#010dfe">NeSS (<font color="#ff8a00">Contribs ) 10:44, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * There is. Playing the game. The problem is that, thanks to how people farm like crazy, some players have small fortunes and thus can increase prices way beyond the reach of people who only play the game without farming (or do you think it's a coincidence how the only really expensive things, like ectos and armbraces and etc, belong to the player driven market, not the one with fixed prices?). Without farming to make a few rich and thus drive prices up, it would be easier for other players to have things without doing what you describe as "boring". There's the problem of the players who already have a small fortune, but unless Arena Net locks the price of ectos on 500 gold, that's hardly going to be fixed no matter what they do. Erasculio  11:03, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I have never used SF or 600/Smite to farm, yet I have everything I want besides the "legendary" minis, which includes a maxed Valor and Resilience (as in not just full, but completely maxed) and 61 pets in Devotion. Yes, I played the game. I am kind of annoyed that some people have more money than they know what to do with. I have only one set of FoW, but I find it ridiculous that some people have FoW/chaos on several characters. I know someone who lost their account, and got zrank8 again in a matter of a few months by powertrading, as there are people who can afford to let powertraders thrive like this. And it's not all SF. So yes, it deserves a nerf too. SF is a much bigger problem, but it doesn't mean that 600/Smite is not a problem by itsef. The "oldschool" 55/SS UW duo was balanced, 600/Smite is not. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 12:38, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh yes, because the oldschool 55/SS is still viable. plz see Skeleton of dhuum for further information. Derrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.............. Briar 12:57, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh yes, I said "was." Derrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.............. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 13:01, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * oh and on the topic of "playing the game gets you enough money for a set of FoW armor" no. Thats bull crap. You cannot honestly expect anyone to beleive you when you say youve never farmed anything once in your life. Because according to your logic ectos should still be ~20k each. You beleive that there should be no "Farming" So that would drive ectos back up to a hugongous ammount. I have played through this entire game 4 times on 2 accounts. That means beaten every single mission in every single campaign at least once on 4 different charachters. And after ALL of that i can personally tell you after testing this by keeping careful records, Doing EXACTLY that yeilds a maximum of 400k on one charachter. MAXIMUM. even back when ectos were a nickel a pound FoW armor costed Nearly 500k for a charachter. thats IF you were doing one of the CHEAP proffesions. like monk. If you were getting it on a war you were looking at a minimum of 500k. Dont BS Newbs with these false promises of being able to get a set of FoW armor by playing the game once. Its bull crap. Btw you have NEVER done these farms and i can tell your personally that they dont yeild a high cash flow. its alot more cash going out than it is going in. i make 10 times the ammount running ZB and ZM in a single day then i do from a week and a half of doing speedclears of any kind in any area. Your sitting there assuming that we all get these great wonderful drops everytime we run a mission. Thats also another crock. the reason these things are so insanely expensive is because THEYRE RARE. They DONT drop. like ever. Ive done more SoO and Bogroot runs than i could possibly put a number to and ive never even SEEN a BDS or a froggy drop. and do you really think that nerfing this crap will make the economy better? your either delusional, high, or just plain stupid. Greedy people will always be greedy. they will always ask for ridiculous ammounts of cash for these weapons. And people WILL pay them. Making it harder to get the weapons will NOT make them go down in price. It will in fact make them SKYROCKET. and taking away every farm will make it so that no one can afford to buy them. Briar 13:09, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Briar, please stop with the namecalling. It's unnecessary, and a violation of GWW:NPA. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  13:15, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Soz about that i guess i should clarify, i wasnt specifically calling her stupid, i was saying that to the general populace. Not any individual person. >.> Briar 13:19, 18 December 2009 (UTC) - then they need a life. See, not having a life is not deserving a reward. Spending all life playing GW while having no relationship or work outside the game does not deserve a reward. Doing the same motions over and over again like a bot does not really deserve a reward. Playing well, being a skilled player, being a good team player - now that deserves a reward. Farming currently doesn't reward any of those things (ask a bot how much of a team player it is). Ergo, no surprise farming (all kinds of farming, not only SF) are going to be nerfed. Erasculio 14:27, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Lol. Fallacy #1: you're not supposed to be able to get FoW on every character.... Especially not after just beating the games with that character. I got my FoW back when ectos cost 8k/ea, one piece at a time, over a course of a few months, while saving all the money from all my characters, and the only farming I did then was MMing skales outside of Gates of Kryta whan I was just a little short of getting my next piece of FoW. Skeles of Dhuum wouldn't even EXIST if it wasn't for SF, so who knows, maybe they'll disapper with the infamous skill nerf? And it sounds like your only justification of the existence of overpowered farming is the ability to farm enough to buy a BDS or froggy. O_o wut? I'm not against all farming, no, but I am against farming that lets people amass thousands of ectos to buy a mini polar AND naga AND 3 everlasting tonics AND rank7 ztitle AND... you get the point... or do you?
 * And calling the general populace stupid is no better. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 13:25, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Then maybe the general populace should stop acting like nerfing these farms will balance out the economy? Because it wont. Also im Lol'ing at the idea that your only supposed to have one elite area in this game. Only one thing to show off and say "this is my cool thing right here". half the people that "Buy" mini pandas and nagas and polar bears only do so to resell them and make some profit. And Your starting to sound like a communist or something. No one should be that rich? what if they devote entire hours, days, weeks at a time, only stopping for 3 hour naps constantly "playing" GW by YOUR rules of no farming and whatnot. And btw, no, they wont dissapear. No they werent introduced to curb permas. How do i know this? because im a perma. And i can tell you, as a perma, that these things are nothing more than a minor annoyance and that any retard with half a brain and a vague concept of the word "pulling" can easily render these enemies harmless. Theyre annoying certainly but it seems to me the only people "Nerfed" by these skellys were the most under-used and easily beaten of the farm builds. in other words, the one that that was the LEAST gimmicky. Plus its been stated by more than one ANet offical that these were introduced as a content update. Not to nerf shadow form. They were given special skills to penetrate shadow form this is true, But they were not introduced to curb UWSC. This has already been confirmed over and over and over again. Not really sure why some people arent catching on to that fact, but oh well. Briar 13:36, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * one more thing, why should(nt) players be allowed to buy elite gear? i really dont understand. Explain it to me.(sorry about that, critical typo)Briar 13:40, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Where did I say they shouldn't be allowed to buy elite gear? But the reason it's elite is so that it's not common. And why in the world would you need MORE money if you already can afford a mini panda? The elite populace is so stupid. /sarcasm I have not seen once this mention that skeles were not added to curb SF, it just was a small step on the way to nerfing it, which they have now pretty much promised. The entire Dhuum lore was because of "all the death in the Underworld." And then we have Fuu Rin whose dialogue made me lol. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 14:03, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * "what if they devote entire hours, days, weeks at a time, only stopping for 3 hour naps constantly "playing" GW by YOUR rules of no farming and whatnot"
 * ^^What he said. If you wanna farm you life away, go play WoW. ;) Also, I think there's nothing more to add to this, especially being on Regina's talk. The key points of both sides were brought up, in case Regina decides she might afford the time to read this what now is WoT and see our concerns. Move along. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 14:33, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * "They need a life" you loose all credibility. You just fatalitied yourself. @Rose you need to look around more often then. Its not my fault your ignorant of whats going on. But srsly, its got like 12 different archived threads about skellys and "how useless they are" in reginas page. All of which she has specifically stated that skeletons were not implemented to nerf SF. Read moar. then we can continue this discussion. as for the idea of elite gear being elite, if something is worht 185 ectos, how is that not still elite? alright so lets say that they play by your rules, no shadowform farming, no 600/smite no nothing. Just playing through a dungeon with a balanced team. They get through the entire dungeon, kill, lets say, Illsunder, hoping to get an emerald blade. you kill him, and dont get an emerald blade. what then? Briar 14:37, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Then we stop discussing this here before this becomes the 13th "archived thread about skellys". 0 of 1 users thinks this post adds to the discussion. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 14:43, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Lawl. White Flag ftw? Briar 14:49, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, that horse is starting to stink... Been dead too long. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 14:51, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Well thats to bad. i was just about to get to my best argument yet. Ah well thats life. GG. Briar 14:52, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

The biggest injustice that will follow from 600/smite nerf is that a lot of people have maxed their Luxon and/or Kurzick titles with this. After the nerf people cant do this as easily as it has been done. And even with 600/smite these titles take a lot of time to do, so it is not an easy way to title in anyway. Please dont trash these titles to oblivion for future title hunters.
 * Ok... I am just, completely, dumb founded at the lengths to go about nerfing a build that forces people or additions to work together properly. Why dont you go after Raptor Farming or somthing? :45 seconds for a single SOLO Raptor run; and you want to go after a team build that takes up about 20-45 minutes? Did I miss somthing that Lindsey said about helping people play together in the game back at PAX? Because it sounds to me, you all just lied to us if you are nerfing team builds and ignoring Solo builds like Raptor. 600/Smite was myself and my entire guild's main income and purpose left for playing this game to finsih off our equipment and such.  Now, depending on the sevarity of the nerf to this team build (example, Spirit Bond)... we have all decided to quit since there is nothing left to do.  I have defended you (ANET) time and time again... but when you lie about promoting players to work together, and then nerf a team farming build core to this game... that tells me, that you really missed somthing. - SabreWolf 05:51, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * That's your own fault for building a guild around a mindless farming build. If they're truly your friends, they won't mind staying and playing the game the way it should be played. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig2.jpg|19x19px]] 08:34, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The Guild was not built around 600/Smite farming. You don't even know my guild... In fact, the guild I am hanging out with was made back in 2007... and my Clan's Guild was made back in 2006 with the same leader the entire time.  600/Smite has been our staple farm for years... and I do not understand how a 2 (sometimes 3) bar combonation build set is equal to a 2-3 skill combonation. 11-14 skills vs 2-3 skills... ya that's simular!  And as for "playing the game as it was intended to be played"... I AM!  Don't blame me for using the most effective build/skill set to play the game... blame the ones that make it so... ANET.  So don't get off on blaming me for being smart and using the best of the best ANET created to play with. Red Resign would be a place to say "play the game as it was intended to be played"... not for running the best build out there made by the makers of the game. - SabreWolf 00:15, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
 * cry less, 600/smite farms like mad. you can 600/smite like every area in the game. SF gets nerfed too and im glad. and if your only playing gw to farm then seriously wtf go do something useful or actually do something like a real team. as far as i know 600/smite for luxon/kurzick areas are just 600/smite x 4 so thats hardly team play, thats just speedclearing like mad. im glad its gonna get nerfed <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  00:22, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
 * First off, I love how both arguements are to target the person (me) and not the topic. Useful?  Like what?  Drunkard?  Sweet tooth?  I have beaten all 4 games 3 or 4 times over... I have played GvG for years.  I have done the team stuff, so don't make me sound like a loner.  I am farming to get my toons fully outfitted to the best of looks... mostly the Warrior.  I am not like those Ecto mongers out there that have 20+ stacks of ectos. Infact, I only have 1.5k on my account right now.  Its somthing fairly easy and laid back to do while I hang out with my friends doing the same thing, most of the time in the same group.  All I am saying is how the heck do you quantify 11-14 skills to be equal to 2-3 skills on a 8 skill cap bar? And you both have failed to answer that question. - SabreWolf 19:08, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Your latest journal entry
Thanks for posting the latest journal entry, it was very interesting. Great job on getting back to us about these things. I did have a few questions though, not sure if you can answer, but as long as they get you thinking, then they serve the purpose. Bear in mind that I'm not claiming that my opinion holds any weight, I'm just expressing it as a player. I like that you're looking at changing the functionality of SF, and not just playing with the recharge/upkeep etc, this is a good idea. I like that you're taking a look at 600/smite as well, but I think you'll have a decently hard time with that one, as there are several variants, some of which rely on pve only skills. In reference to balancing midline spike, which skills are you referring to? I think you ought to take a look at bsurge, but idk if that would have anything to do with GvG. As for FC Bspike, it's great that you're addressing that as well, I just hope you go for the core of the problem, and not the surrounding things. I'm confident that members of the TK will pass on ideas to you, because I think there are some fairly obvious fixes to some of the problems you're dealing with. I think it's good that you're taking a look at EDA and IoP as well, seeing as EDA is along the same lines as Bsurge. I hope you can get some ideas that will still leave them playable, without just tweaking recharge and such. As for hammers, it is my understanding that the ideas you have for the weapon will be PvE only, how do you plan on doing that? Will you be changing skills, the attribute, or the weapon itself? I'm afraid it will adversely affect PvP and create even more power creep. I believe hammers are balanced with a slower attack rate, which makes sense, because they have more usage from a utility perspective than axes or swords. I think they're just fine in PvP. As far as tactics, you have a lot on your plate right now, and there are a lot of other pressing issues with your game, if I were you, that's one of the things I would leave until later, when you've dealt with all the problems in this game that already exist. Thanks for taking the time to check this out, whenever you get around to it. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning  13:11, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Sort of on topic to the sf/600 thing, could someone please clarify how creating a one/two person dungeon-running cancer-economy is less detrimental than full teams trying to farm an item that has historically been an item to be farmed since the beginning?
 * Also, I'm really starting to not like members of the community being handpicked by the company to help balance the game. Do we even know who the members are?  Calling upon "We pride ourselves on transparency".  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 00:50, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * What item are you talking about? Also, 600/smite is less detrimental because it centers on changing damage to a point where healing will always be greater than damage taken, not invincibility in one skill, like SF does. 600/smite is also slower, which makes it less harmful than SF. As for the TK, it's a step in the right direction, I would have faith in it unless proven otherwise. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig2.jpg|19x19px]] 00:56, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


 * right... If it allows anything less than a Full Team of thinking sentient beings running it, then it's BAD for the economy b/c it's causing Disparity. It doesn't matter who thinks it's not technically GODMODE.  As for Transparency, it appears to be voluntary and only a couple of folks have made it a point to step forward. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 04:08, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

FC bspike is an easy fix, as the problem with the build; it's with the lifestealing mechanic. Because it's unprottable it basically acts as an automatic, uncounterable shutdown on the prot monk. There's an easy fix for bloodspike that anet should've implemnted 3 years ago: change the life steal mechanic so that insteal of causing unprottable health transfer, have blood skills cause damage and heal the user for an equivalent amount of health. If you can prot bloodspike, it's instantly just as weak (really much weaker) than any other caster spike. Doesn't go anywhere towards fixing the bloodline(which is all around a really horrible, ill-conceived, underpowered line) but it does solve the problem of bloodspike quite simply.--TahiriVeila 01:29, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * @Alice. Transparency is one thing, but the Test Krewe members are under an NDA, and if the public had a list of them right in their faces, do you think the Krewe members would like being constantly picked on with "What are you working on?" I don't see a reason to publicly announce who the Krewe members are unless they choose to make themselves known, and thus make it harder for themselves to keep silent. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 01:35, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I was referring to ecto farming which is what SF is all about, I think. Compared to the dungeon running for 1k-10k per party member, with the added fact that it makes a mockery of an entire campaign worth of what was supposed to be "elite level 20 content".  And knowing how varied and adamant human opinion can be especially in the guild wars community, a small league of decision makers handpicked straight from it is unsettling.  I'm waiting for Shadowform to get 25/90'd because there are actually people who want to see that happen, and those are people who are high up on the community food chain, and I believe there's a lot of drama that goes on up there.  Ilr, I'm not quite sure which side of what you're arguing for in your first statements Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 05:00, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I never picked anyone's side in this. I wanted SF made MORE perma but given a different downside ...same goes for Spirit Bond... Not that I care if they do or don't mind you, My only concern is that they don't pull this Godmode+Reflecting crap again in GW2 -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 12:27, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, I just looked at the list. Guild Wars is being shut down next update.  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 05:03, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The TK doesn't make decisions. It tests stuff and gives back feedback. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig2.jpg|19x19px]] 06:21, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * ^^That. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 11:18, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * That's what they want us to believe! ;_; Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:24, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No, that's actually the truth. The TK members get selected things to test and evaluate, and are free to make suggestions for the devs' consideration (not much different from the feedback portal here). I'm telling you as a Krewe member, is that convincing enough? [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 00:59, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Leave 600/Smite alone please. This is the only way too do dungeons considering nothing can be pugged in this game plus the fact that if you nerf it everyone will just quit guild wars.Ajsnuker 12:02, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * People said everyone would quit the game when AoE flee was introduced, yet here we are. People said everyone would quit the game when minion masters were nerfed, yet most people probably don't even remember that nerf. People said everyone would quit when Ursan was nerfed, yet here we are. There's a rather interesting article about those claims in a MMORPG, and after watching what the "quiters" did, the conclusion was: "Almost nobody who said they were quitting actually quit, and the few who did didn’t stay gone long: they entered a rebound cycle and came back pretty quickly. Most often, they didn’t leave at all". Erasculio  13:01, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * @Ajsnuker If the dungeons couldn't be run then the people who wanted to complete them would have to find groups to do them, and as such there would be people to do the dungeons with.--Orry 16:55, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I got Legendary Master of the North without once having a perma or 600/smite in my party. In fact I H/H'd almost all of it, without any cons except a few clovers and candy canes I had laying around. The only time I did have a perma was my last 30 title points (over max rank already) for HM Rragar's, and that was just by chance. This goes to prove that you don't need either of those broken builds for any of it. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 17:38, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * ^that minus the perma. You don't need those broken builds. Learn to make your own. King Neoterikos 00:18, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Just quit the game. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 19:32, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Zaishen Menagerie counting as a part of the hom?
Hi I was just wondering will unlocks in the zaishen menagerie count towards guildwars 2 items as well or is it only the hom?

If so would the unlocked level count also?

If not does the amount of unlocks past a full hom still count for something?

yours, Conski The Warlock


 * You can dedicate pets in the HoM, which is pretty much the same thing. If your Menagerie is full but you don't dedicate your pets there, it won't do anything.
 * At least, as far as I know...
 * Also, in future you can auto-sign your posts by adding ~ at the end before hitting "Save page". | <font color="Red">72 User_Seventy_two_Truly_Random.jpg (UTC) 21:07, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Dedicate menagerie pets? What? Um... 72, you're thinking of the wrong pets, methinks... Drugs are bad for you. ;) [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 03:52, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Before you go accusin' me of snortin' the ol' white, I meant the Monument to Fellowship, but I was indeed mistaken that one could dedicate all pets. | <font color="Red">72 User_Seventy_two_Truly_Random.jpg (UTC) 04:57, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks :), I meant as in each pet counting as its own unlock (if the zm counts) not the way theres 31 pets that all give the same statue and only 2 that give different. My question is also will the zm be part of the whole hom thing so if its not then your right 72 and it won't count. Conski42 09:53, 22 December 2009 (UTC) conski
 * I don't believe the Menagerie will count towards anything regarding GW2. It was put in place after many players asked for a centralized way to acquire pets as well as to not have to retrain pet's they've already had. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  18:09, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Changes to Tactics
I just wanted to thank you for looking into this, tactics was 1 of my favorite attributes on my war and when it got nerfed due to mostly monks abusing it it really annoyed me (understatement). If you do fix it thank you in advance. BurrTheKing 17:46, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Because one second down on some defensive Stances is really going to gimp you. Hmmhmm hmhmm. Dark Morphon 17:26, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Morphon is right, the stances were just balanced. Things like Fear Me and Watch Yourself, got nerfed into oblivion, though, and most other Tactics skills are just totally useless, which they recognize. WAIT WAT, WE'RE GETTING SKILL BUFFS AGAIN? Hopefully for PvP too =/ -- -Chaos- (moo) -- 00:26, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
 * As long as they don't introduce new VoRs, R/A dagger dudes and other similar crap, I'm fine with buffs. Dark Morphon 10:01, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
 * As a Warrior Main, I was very happy to hear the news about the buff to Tactics (and Hammer for that matter). Both of which need a lot of love, and I am glad ANET is looking into it. - SabreWolf 19:15, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I wasn't complaining about block stances but I had several builds that used "WY!" in order to use the soldier line of skills but with it now only lasting a few blows the whole line is useless unless you have a para on your team. Anyways I acknowledge that monks will always abuse the stances no matter what. There is simply to many worthless skills on the line.BurrTheKing 22:10, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

As soon as we start reading "change/rework" as "direct buff", we set ourselves up for disappointment. | <font color="Red">72  (UTC) 19:26, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Blind in PvP:
I see that EDA's finally being dealt with. I wanted to raise the question: hava ya'll [GW1 Developers] ever thought about lowering the blind % ratio? The reason I ask is because B.Surge is also extremely overpowered [esp. in 4v4], and Me/N's with the Signet of Midnite and plague sending combo are also lightly overpowered [in 4v4]. I know that blind's supposed to be countered using the appropriate removals, but in 4v4 arenas it severely depletes a healer's energy pool trying to cope with allies being blinded every second or so, not to mention that they're also trying to break through a web of blocking and anti-melee hexes. Also, have ya'll looked at the current state of Random Arenas? Negative energy's been constant in that arena ever since /report and dishonor have been established. Ragers still ragequit and take the penalty & all, and it screws over whoever's left. No one resigns either, and everyone itches to report others.. sometimes for no viable reason. Thanks for keeping GW1 steaming while GW2 is in the works. It's one of the best MMO and F2P I've ever played [period]. Ciao. --Ulterion 06:36, 26 December 2009 (UTC) Thank you, Rose, that's what I was talking about. An imp is the perfect example, all offense and no defense. Casters that can do more damage than melee is not a problem in and of itself, they become a problem when they can simultaneously absorb as much damage as a melee character without dying. A melee character is supposed to be able to absorb the most damage, while still being able to deal enough damage to kill the casters. That doesn't necessarily mean they're supposed to deal the most damage though. ( Satanael |  talk ) 17:09, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Blind is supposed to be a near complete shut-down on melee characters, because melee characters are supposed to be able to do higher ammounts of damage than casters. Notice how I say "supposed"?--Orry 15:24, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * In what way are melee characters "supposed" to do more damage than casters? It's just supposed to be a different kind/style of damage, not more or less. Eles do nothing but damage, it would be dumb for a melee character to be able to do more than them, then what would be the point of an ele? Wards? That's a tiny fraction of the number of skills they have. Same with water hexes. Melee characters (except assasins) are "supposed" to absorb damage that the casters can't take and/or smash the bejesus out of opposing casters. ( Satanael |  talk ) 16:08, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * ^^ Notice how Orry said "supposed"? :P [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 16:49, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Casters are supposed to be support and melee is supposed to be damage, when a character can do more damage at casting range than at melee raqnge than that character is overpowered. The added risk of havng to get close to the enemies should get an added reward, i.e. more damage output. Hence melee is "supposed" to do more damage than casters.--Orry 22:26, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * "Elementalists summon the powers of earth, air, fire, and water and command them at will. They can inflict more damage in a single strike than any other profession."- Yup. Melle are supposed to do the most damage. Herp Derp tum ta tidly tum. Briar 22:50, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Man, I thought he was being sarcastic, but he was serious. O_o Darned interwebs. Tum ta tidly tum tee doo... [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 03:55, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, single strike...that doesnt exactly mean they do the most damage, just they can do the most at one time. Cast time+recharges say ohaider. Life Guardian 04:17, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay so wait, The fact that it says single strike instead of DPS means its not a damage class? Briar 04:24, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No, it means it isn't a sustained damage class, which it currently is. --Orry 15:57, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Just to clairify, yes Elementalists should be able to do 100 damage in one hit, but they shouldn't be able to do it every 2 seconds. says hi.--Orry 16:03, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Flare spam+Mark of Rodgort sais hi. And yes they SHOULD be a sustained damage class. You have no idea what your talking about. Briar 16:17, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Ritu spirit spam says hi, arcane+Spiteful Spirit says hi, empathy/backfire/eburn say hi, dual-attune rodgort/mark says hi, (last 3 being Prophecies only!), etc, etc, etc. Casters can be offensive or defensive. But, if casters were not the best sustained damage dealers, they would have no place in this game besides healers/prots, but somehow most of their attribute lines deal primarily with offense rather than defense. The whole concept of caster is that they deal more, but stay in the backline due to being "squishy" and need someone to frontline for them. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 16:59, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * "The whole concept of caster is that they deal more, but stay in the backline due to being "squishy" and need someone to frontline for them."
 * I'm just saying hi, every thing else seems to be. But not just "absorb/prevent" the damage, but are also able to deal the high damage aswell, like this work of art for example. -- BobbyT [[Image:User_BobbyT BobbyT_Sig.jpg|19x19px|User Talk: BobbyT]] 17:59, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Casters not being able to absorb and deal damage? I'm sorry, my alliance's obby tank soloing one side of the four horsemen should be impossible then should it not? I don't mean tanking them, I mean by the time our side is down, his side is down.--Orry 18:11, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, Rodgort's Invocation is only about 1/4 the damage of Searing Flames, Searing Flames should be twice as powerful, not four times as powerful.--Orry 18:21, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Briar, it is hysterical watching you try to argue about anything. I'll let Ensign save me the trouble of posting, since he (aside from being one of the best/most knowledgable players in the game) also did the math for us. Here's his post entitled "Why Nuking Sucks," and that is how Guild Wars has worked for years.
 * The game is balanced around physical damage dealers. The reason blind is a 90% miss chance is because the game was designed for physicals to be the best at killing stuff, period, as Orry was saying. Every single time ANet adds comparable damage to a caster, the game fucking breaks. See also - spiritual pain, chain lightning, searing flames, spirit burn, lamentation, etc etc etc
 * PS to all the PvErs in this thread, this is a PvP topic concerning PvP balance. Nobody gives a fuck about you catching 500 level 10 mobs in a single fire spell and thus being a good "nuker." This is about blind in PvP being more powerful than any caster counter in PvP. And Satanael, please, you're just embarrassing yourself. Warriors have, for years, been the highest damage dealers in the game, regardless of armor level. The problem with casters is that there are no viable caster counters (i.e., nothing that is as easy to apply and maintain as Blind is on warriors), not that they "absorb too much damage." - Auron 18:22, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, when I realised they were talking about PvE, I had to break their logic there too, just a tad bit. But a good caster in a properly balanced game buffs their allies, shuts down enemies, pressures the enemy monks, makes the monk anticipate a spike somewhere where there isn't going to be one, etc. Pretty much everything BUT damage. And if a melee profession is less durable than a warrior, it should do more damage proportional to how much easier it is to kill and if that can't be balanced it shouldn't be in the game.--Orry 18:50, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

(reset) i wasnt talking about PvE dufus. And i agree with rose. Casters are meant to do more damage.Physicals are meant to soak it up. Your argument seems to be that Wars should be the most powerful killing machine and the most powerful tank in the game. Which is probably the single stupidest thing ive ever heard. Please rephrase your point if thats not what your saying. Briar 19:47, 29 December 2009 (UTC) , applies nicely to yourself. Erasculio 20:23, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Warriors don't soak up the most damage, Rangers do. And currently they too are imbalanced because they can do WAY too much damage in melee for their durability. And another funny thing is, casters have some of the best damage mitigation spells there are and they can target more than just themselves. Funny how balanced in your mind equates to being able to buff the party AND do so much damage it isn't funny from CASTING range, that is the bubble in your radar if you don't know, while Warrior stands there with his blocking stances and health boosts and hits the opponents for less. Hmm, wait a second,do you think these are good skills to put on a single bar? Endure Pain Defy Pain Signet of Stamina Bonetti's Defense Because it would explain a lot. --Orry 20:05, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Dude what the hell are you talking about? i didnt say anything like that. Quit putting words in my mouth I said that Casters (in return for theyre low armor) should be doing the most damage. While physicals (in return for their MASSIVE ammount of armor) should be doing the least. And no, Rangers are not imbalanced. Assassins are. Take the daggers and scythes out of a rangers hand and he's stuck with glass arrows and burning arrow as his only options for damage output. Once again displaying an extremely high level of ignorance, i restate my case: You have no idea what your talking about. Briar 20:12, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * You don't seem to even barely grasp the PvP aspect of this game, maybe instead of making embarrassing posts like these you should crawl yourself back to PvE. I laugh hard every time you post like this, are you 12 or something?
 * Briar, you're wrong, Auron is right. Your perfectly not antagonistic quote, "You have no idea what your talking about"
 * ^2 logical, well thought out responses, with reasoning and examples given for those reasons. Totally not 2 fanboi's fapping themselves to pictures of aurons charachter. Briar 20:31, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Um, I posted in this topic before Auron, and if Rangers weren't imbalanced then people would be running A/R and not R/A, Warriors should get increased damage due to having to attack at range, being able to be blocked, being able to miss with their attacks, etc. Their armour has NOTHING to do with this nor should it because it fits their postion on the battlefield.And you said Warriors have the best damage mitigation, and those skills all on one bar is the only way I could think that would be entirely true.--Orry 20:41, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC) ^^ totally not someone who's ignoring (again) Auron's arguments, and therefore isn't worth trying to reason with. The game is not as simple as "high armor, low damage" and "low armor, high damage". Erasculio  20:44, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Right Erasculio, positioning required to deal the damage also should deal a role, high damage from a safe distance isn'texactly balanced, because if you are too far away to get hit, your armour doesn't really matter now, does it?--Orry 20:47, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * (Edit conflict) If warriors have the highest armor, do the most damage, and can't be blinded like now, what's the point in playing any of the other 9 classes? O_o I just wonder... I know warriors used to be the best pressure class in the old PvP because they had good damage and couldn't be killed in a snap, but the entire game has changed a lot since then.
 * So, back to the topic above, blind bots are the problem in PvP, and I think that blind should not be maintainable like it is now, but the condition itself is fine, it's only the duration/re-application that is problematic. Too many skills (a few especially so) had sprung up that can blind repeatedly and for a long time, making removal worthless. Blind was supposed to stop a few attacks and then end itself, so it was crucial to apply it in anticipation of the "big" attacks coming. Now it can be used to completely shut down a martial class. That is what needs to be addressed, not the hit % of blindness. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 20:51, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * qft. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  20:56, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I ignore Auron for my own reasons. Mostly because he doesnt deserve to be aknowledged. Rangers have expertise (which is the reason theyre used rather than assassins) because if you play a ranger it was meant to be played its very cost heavy. Btw casters can be inturupted. So your argument about blocking is invalid. They can be shut down just as easily as a melle charachter can. And perhaps its not as simple as that. But perhaps it should be veiwed that way. Wars have to follow theyre target around, this is true, but mellee also have more IMS capability than any other class with the exception of ranger. Plus they have knockdowns which is something no other class (with the exception of elementalist) Have activly in any serious build. So yeah, they do have to chase theyre targets around. But they have the means to do so. Fire magic is overpowered sure, A SF ele can do more AoE DPS than anything else in the game. But im also pretty sure thats what they were designed to do (see breath of flame searing heat tenais heat savanah heat etc etc etc) Elementalists have a grand total of 1 defense skill outside of earth magic. And that would be in? water magic. No matter how you look at it elementalists as an idea are balanced. In execution no, they do ridiculous ammounts of damamge for ridiculously low costs. and yes. they do need tuning. But they ARE a damage class and since they have laughable damage when trying to defend themselves (using an earth magic build) They should be doing more damage than a War. They are meant for damage and damage only if theyre not running some gimmick build. So yes. they SHOULD be doing more of it. Briar 21:00, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * By your logic, Crude Swing should deal several times as much damage as Rodgort's. It has a smaller area, it's melee range, it can be blocked, it can miss, and you have 40 armor while using it.
 * I think you fail to understand how important a character's effective range is. Having to get into melee range to deal damage is a HUGE.  DRAWBACK.  If warriors could autoattack from casting range, if they couldn't miss or be blocked, THEN they should do less damage than elementalists.  However, doing damage as a warrior is many times more difficult than doing it as a caster, and their DPS reflects that, as it should.
 * On a semi-related note, you should probably read Ensign's guru post, regardless of who posted it - it's pretty close to perfect for this topic. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  21:08, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * So you'd ignore Hitler if he said the sky was blue? (No comparison between Auron and Hitler meant). --<font color="SaddleBrown">Short  <font color="Darkgoldenrod">talk to me  21:43, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * So, just to clarify, I was talking about how things were supposed to be, and yes, even in pvp, not how they currently are (of course I know that there are lots of casters that have crazy good defensive skills, and I disagree with that). Rose is right, if Wars do the most damage and can absorb the most damage, why play anything else? No one has a good answer for that, not even the vaunted Auron. ( Satanael |  talk ) 01:33, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Warriors damage mitigation should come largely from the supporting casters, if all a Warrior could do was stop damage, nobody would play them. Nobody would run a build with only those skills I posted, so nobody would run a primarily self-damage mitigating character. The only reason people should use a Warrior is for the high single enemy damage output. Warriors should not have the best damage ruduction, but they should have a slight boost for their position on the battlefield. 20 extra armour, with an extra 20 against physical damage isn't too much. Casters can cast their damage reduction on anybody, not just themselves, this can be used to keep a Warrior alive or to stop their warriors from damaging your casters. Caster damage should be support as something extra a caster can do, not the primary focus of the character.--Orry 03:30, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

You play things other than war for the same reason you haven't eaten oatmeal every day for breakfast, your whole life. One thing for so long gets boring, unless it's god mode, and even that does, to some extent. Maybe a person isn't good at war. Maybe playing war is against someone's religion. There are plenty of reasons to swap chars. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning  08:49, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

">>I ignore Auron" You shouldn't do that, because you missed the part where he systematically disproved your arguments. Read Ensign's guru post. Aevar talk  contribs 05:25, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Change shadow steps back! (oh and no VoD is lame)
I just came back from a long time hiatus of guild wars to see no assasins anywhere in competetive PvP!!! This aftercast with shadowsteps needs to go! As you can tell i'm an old school player style, but watching the MaT... the older style is hell of a lot better than now :O (oh and no VoD leads to stupid matches and worthless npcs, Rush the lord at 27:30 any1?)
 * That kinda happened a long time ago.Mobility on sins is dead,so sins are dead aswell.(compared to what they used to have) Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] 08:57, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

LoL
Why don't you guys buff IoP and those fragility Mesmers, they are REALLY underpowered! Thank you.
 * Fragility mesmers are bad, it's IoP alone which breaks any bar, and I'm quite sure that they're already addressing IoP. -- -Chaos- (moo) -- 13:23, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * yes they'll probably double nerf it into oblivion. 14:34, 28 December 2009 (UTC)14:34, 28 December 2009 (UTC)14:34, 28 December 2009 (UTC)~
 * 25e/90r For 90 seconds, all foes within earshot laugh at you, and you suffer from all conditions and take 100 damage per second. All resurrection attempts on you fail. --Ulterion 20:55, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Perfect! you should be on the balance team. 92.0.235.159 12:25, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

600/smite
I don't think it should be nerfed so badly you won't be able to use it anymore it's a concept that actually requires skill and practice to use unlike shadowform or 55 so why would you nerf it? ok people do speedclears with it like DTSC but really the kurz title still takes moderatly long and you won't get alot of money out of it either.also for the 'hard' areas in the game you will need a third charachter like for instance in DoA or SoO wich also means less drops in DoA and less ppl to run in SoO and IF you still want to nerf it don't break it just make it harder to use so using PuGs is hard due to the skill needed to 600.


 * People like you undermine everything people like me work to accomplish. stop posting please. Briar 00:40, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
 * ^^ The way you put it was uncalled for, Briar, but I too disagree with the OP (too lazy too look him up for unsigned template). However, I don't think the entire build will get smiter's-boon'd. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 01:37, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
 * True, That would be pretty fucked up. Speaking of thus, Time to re-open that festering can of worms. ^.^ Briar 01:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I just want to tell a story to the OP: Some time ago I heard that Anet hired a guy to start a character in Factions, play till he got to Fort Aspenwood, and started to MQSC for 8 hours a day. Anet wanted to have statistics on how long would it take somebody to max an allegiance title by SCing. The guy got Savior of the Luxons in 3 weeks. Now, you might think that is still long, but if you consider that the title, before these Speed Clears, was maxable in about 2 years if you don't grind really bad, you can see that 3 weeks is nothing.
 * @Briar: Kindness is free. --[[Image:User Large sig.png|talk]] Large 03:21, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The way you put it every farming build is OP just because they can't be killed if played against the right foes in the right area.you could also speed clear alot of stuff with 55 monks so they should be nerfed to? or is Anet trying to nerf any farming build? that's not a great idea either is it?
 * No money, no care. Wanna buy a new face? Or how about a name change? Or maybe you leik ten dallah Grenth/Dwayna uniform? --Ulterion 02:51, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is. This is Guild Wars, not Harvest Moon.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  04:13, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

12/31 Journal and lag
Hi Regina, I'm not sure who to talk to about this, but I was wondering if it might be possible to add a feature to our preferences that makes it so our client automatically seeks the higher numbered or otherwise less crowded districts of whatever city/town we are going to, rather than the lower numbered ones it currently seeks out. That way those of us with poor connections or old computers can automatically go to the districts that will load faster, and there can be a little relief for overcrowded servers. It's just a thought, but given your journal entry I thought this would be a good time/place to throw it out there. ( Satanael |  talk ) 20:51, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Your client already seeks out the less crowded districts. It doesn't skip to the next when that one is completely full, it does that if it's crowded. New districts are created when old ones get crowded, and destroyed when they're empty. &mdash; User_Poki_sig.png Poki#3  (<font color="#8B0000">talk ) 23:19, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, placing people in lots of different high-numbered districts makes it harder to remove the districts when they become redundant. (Unless, of course, you start forcibly moving people from district to district on a regular basis.) | <font color="Red">72 User_Seventy_two_Truly_Random.jpg (UTC) 00:00, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Right, it moves to the next district when the first one is crowded. What I'm saying is it should go to district two if district two has fewer people than district one, and this would only be for the people who chose that option in their preferences. Closing districts would be no big deal, they could just stop letting people into the redundant districts and wait for the people already in there to leave. They already do that when new builds go live, so it's not like it would be hard to do on a regular basis. ( Satanael |  talk ) 02:31, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
 * In cooler news, I just noticed that my first comment here occurred at exactly 00:00, January 1st 2010. | <font color="Red">72 User_Seventy_two_Truly_Random.jpg (UTC) 05:45, 1 January 2010 (UTC)