ArenaNet:Skill feedback/Paragon/The Problem with Paragons

The Problem with Paragons

 * Issue
 * OK, paragons get a lot of people saying they're broken, possibly more so than any other profession. The way I see it, though, it that the problem with paragons (as with ritualists and dervishes to a certain extent) is the opposite of The Problem with Assassins.
 * Unlike assassins, which are OP in small groups but poor in large groups, paragons, thanks to the way Leadership works and the large AoE of shouts and chants, struggle a lot (particularly with energy management) in small groups, with the exception perhaps of one or two sub-par builds (the Focused Justicar springs to mind), but can be incredibly powerful in large ones, especially when there are lots of them (they get almost exponentially more powerful).


 * Suggestion
 * The way I see it, Leadership needs something to be done about it. The problem is, what? The whole point of Leadership is that it relies on allies, and to fix it you would have to undermine the whole concept. Well, that's still something of a conundrum, although here'sone idea I'd like to throw up:
 * Leadership. "Whenever you use a skill, you gain 1 Energy per ally affected by it (maximum 1 Energy for every 3 ranks)."
 * Leadership. "Whenever you use a non-adrenaline skill, you gain 1 Energy per ally affected by it (maximum 1 Energy for every 3 ranks)."
 * Now these two would mean less energy was gained from each shout or chant, since the cap is lower, but to compensate you would get more energy overall since all skills would give energy. The only worry is that this might lead to some problems with other skills giving too much energy - normally this shouldn't be a problem because most skills would effect only one or two allies at most, but Aegis, Order of the Vampire et c. could cause problems. It might still work, though, because at 15 in PvP, Aegis on a paragon would still cost 10, would be less powerful than Aegis on a monk, and would lack the Divine Favour bonus. Order of Pain and Order of the Vampire would effectively be free, energy-wise, but most of their cost is made up from the sacrifice, so who knows? If it looks too powerful (more powerful than Leadership is now in big teams?), you could always add a Soul Reaping-like clause like "You can only gain a maximum of 10 energy this way every 6 seconds" or whatever.
 * The advantage of a change like this, though, would be that since the cap is lower, a paragon in HA or GvG would have only slightly better energy management than a paragon in RA or TA.


 * OK, Internet Explorer crashed the last time I typed a load of these so I'm not gonna spend too much time explaining them again. If you want to know the reasoning behind something in more depth, say so on the talk page. :-(.


 * Conditions (suggestion)
 * OK, a great idea which would really help balance paragons would be to add another condition or two to counter them. I think it's quite unlikely this will actually happen (although Craked Armour was added, so who knows?) but it would definately be a good thing.


 * Deaf. Condition. While suffering from this condition, you cannot be affected by new Shouts, Chants or Echoes.
 * This would be really useful because it would prevent shouts, chants and echoes on single targets and would fit in great with the Air Magic line, for example. What's more, teams who didn't communicate could have paragons spamming shouts and chants without realising that their allies weren't being affected by them and that echoes were running out on them.


 * Silenced/Mute. Condition. While suffering from this condition, you cannot use Shouts or Chants.
 * The only problem here would be the whole thing with Dazed (it used to be called silenced) and flavour-wise how this doesn't affect spells whereas such things as Shroud of Silence do.


 * General skills
 * Some ideas for general changes below:
 * OK, it quite a nice skill but needs a buff. However, rather than actually buffing it I suggest indirectly improving it by making more chants and shouts duration-based rather than with only an end-effect.
 * UPDATE 07/08/08: This has been buffed.
 * UPDATE 07/08/08: This has been buffed.






 * Spear Attacks
 * Generally I have few problems with these, but some tweaks might be in order:


 * . 5 1/2  15.
 * Spear Attack. If this attack hits, it interrupts target foe's action. If you interrupted that foe, and they were suffering from a Condition, that foe is Dazed for 0...2...3 seconds.
 * This skill is poorer than both Warrior and Ranger interrupts. Now, Warrior interrupts are melee-ranged and so should be better. Rangers probably ought to have better interrupts too since they are meant to be an interrupting class. However, this skill is just too poor, and buffing it would make Paragons better in 1-on-1 or small-scale battles.
 * The change here makes the interrupt unconditional and adds a Daze, but the Daze relies on both the interrupting and the condition, and has a very short duration. Many people will probably just wait it out, but if you're lucky you might get an extra interrupt in. Thus, this change shouldn't make the skill OP, but you could always increase the recharge to 12 or 15 to compensate.


 * . 5 8.
 * Spear Attack. If your attack hits a Bleeding foe, you deal +1...7...9 damage and that foe is Crippled for 1...11...13 seconds.
 * Currently, this skill is far more used by Pack Hunters in HB than proper Paragons, for it's OP Cripple when combined with Barbed Spear. Nerfing it slightly makes it harder to keep Cripple up on people, and adding a small amount of bonus damage makes up for this. Also, the scaling of the Cripple and bonus damage favours high Spear Mastery slightly, encouraging use on Paragons (though I doubt it will actually have much effect).


 * . 2 2.
 * Spear Attack. Your spear moves three times faster. If it hits, you deal + damage. If the struck foe is not adjacent to any allies, that foe suffers from Weakness for 3...9...11 seconds.
 * OK, high damage, faster spear, but it's just not worth it for 3 seconds of activation. Dropping this down to 2 would make it much more worthwhile.
 * The not idea for the extra "not adjacent" clause is to make it more like a ranged Horns of the Ox, but of course knockdown would be too powerful (though possibly if you made it have to hit a moving foe instead). Flavour-wise, I figured that it wouldn't be unreasonable for a spear flying with that much power ("mighty") to wind or weaken someone, and balance-wise it favours small battles and/or skilled play (although it's tricky enough to use, since your target may have moved by the time you throw this).


 * . 5 2.
 * Spear Attack. If this attack hits, you deal + damage. This attack flies twice as fast as normal and cannot be blocked.
 * This was basically just an unblockable Mighty Throw with a +5 cost, or a skill about as powerful as Wild Throw but with a ridiculous activation time. This was ridiculous because considering how weak Mighty Throw was, this was even worse, especially considering that against foes with lots of blocking, which is when you'd need this, it's going to be nearly impossible to get that 7.
 * Decreasing both the cost and the activation time make this skill much more feasible to use. A double flight speed also prevents it from simply being dodged (or pretty much does - spears are hard enough to dodge anyway), which means that without miss chances from Blindness, Blurred Vision et c. you are pretty much guaranteed a hit.


 * Chants
 * Yeah, see above for the thinking on these.


 * . 5 1  10.
 * Elite Chant. For 8 seconds, all party members within earshot gain 0...2...2 strikes of adrenaline the next 1...3...4 time(s) they <font color=#F05000>hit with an attack Skill.
 * OK, overall a buff but not too major a one even though the overall potential gain is higher, since it's trickier to use (need to hit more times). Possibly pop up the recharge to 12-15 too.


 * . 6 1  <font color=#F05000>2.
 * Chant. For 10 seconds, <font color=#F05000>all attack Skills used by each ally within earshot deal +<font color=#F05000>3...5...6 damage against foes with more than 50% Health.
 * Yeah, same idea, and more clearly defines it as a pressure skill. Added a slight recharge so it's not up all the time.


 * . 4 1  <font color=#F05000>4.
 * Elite Chant. For <font color=#F05000>8 seconds, the next attack Skill used by each party member within earshot cannot be blocked <font color=#F05000>and has an extra 5...29...35% chance to critical.
 * Becomes a great spike skill but needs a lot of co-ordination to use. Also has an activation so a bit less powerful than if it was like "Go for the Eyes!".


 * . 4 1.
 * Elite Chant. For 10 seconds, the next <font color=#F05000>1...2...2 attack Skills used by each ally within earshot causes Crippling for seconds.
 * Basically, it's underpowered and needs a buff. I had a great explanation of this before, but lost it, and can't be bothered to write it again.


 * . 10 1  20.
 * Chant. For 10 seconds, the next <font color=#F05000>1...3...4 time(s) each ally within earshot uses an attack Skill, that ally gains <font color=#F05000>1...3...3 Energy.
 * Yeah, same idea as Anthem of Fury again. I think this one's been suggested before, too.


 * . 10 1  20.
 * Chant. For 10 seconds, the next <font color=#F05000>2 times each party member within earshot uses a Spell, that party member gains <font color=#F05000>10...46...55 Health <font color=#F05000>and you lose 1 Energy or Aria of Restoration ends on all affected party members.
 * The idea here is similar to the above ones, as well as making it more powerful but at the price of the paragon's energy. Though paragons have quite good energy management with Leadership, they still need the energy in the first place to use skills, so being reckless with this could hurt (especially if you get 10 spells out of it).


 * . 8 2
 * Chant. For 10 seconds, the next <font color=#F05000>1...3...4 time(s) each ally within earshot casts a Spell, that ally loses 1 Hex. <font color=#F05000>Whenever a Hex is lost in this way, you lose 1 Energy or Hexbreaker Aria ends on all affected allies.
 * This skill is currently underpowered since it's very hard to use (8 adrenaline and 2 activation?), and buffing it shouldn't give rise to any problems since it only affects spells. Thus, paragon-heavy teams will get little benefit from it since they tend not to use spells that often. With the suggested change, it would gain the power to remove a large bulk of hexes, but the paragon would have to be careful with it (as with Aria of Restoration above) to avoid energy loss. Since it's an adrenaline skill, though, you would currently get 8 just from using it and so would get at least 8 hexes off, unless you used another skill.
 * Alternately, something like:
 * . 8 2
 * Chant. For 10 seconds, the <font color=#F05000>hexes on each ally within earshot <font color=#F05000>expire 5...21...25% faster and 10...50...60% faster while that ally is casting a spell. When Hexbraker Aria ends, each affected ally loses one hex.
 * A change like this would make the skill much more powerful (it might be too powerful, so a duration decrease might be in order too) and allow it to affect non-casters as well, while keeping some of the benefit to casters. What's more, it would get more and more powerful with more hexes, making it great against the massive hex stacks which are OP, but not quite so great against hexes which aren't. It would also have a nice bonus in that it would mess up hex durations for foes (e.g. Diversion would only shut you down for ~4.5 secs instead giving them less spike time, or whatever).


 * . 10 1  <font color=#F05000>15.
 * . 10 1  <font color=#F05000>15.
 * Chant. For 10 seconds, <font color=#F05000>whenever each party member within earshot takes damage, that party member gains <font color=#F05000>2...6...7 Health. <font color=#F05000>Ballad of Restoration ends on a party member if it heals that member for more than 60 health.
 * Currently, Ballad of Restoration will heal everyone for ~75 health unless they don't take damage for 10 whole seconds, which means they don't need it. This means it works like a delayed AoE heal spell (such as Heal Party or Heaven's Delight). These spells shouldn't be powerful anyway, since they require much less skill to use.
 * A change like this will mean the skill still has a similar effect, but it lasts longer so you can't simple get two or three paragons to spam this (for about 3 energy) as you could before - a lot of the overlap was removed by its early end time. However, the health gain from it would still be limited, stopping it from being OP and also stopping Vocal was Sogolon synergising with it too well. The fact that affected people have to take damage multiple times also makes it less effective, since overall they will be losing health (it now really just slows the rate at which people get hurt, rather than actually healing them). This all makes up for the reduced duration.


 * . 10 1  20.
 * . 10 1  <font color=#F05000>20.
 * Elite Chant. For 10 seconds, the next <font color=#F05000>1...3...3 times each party member within earshot uses a Skill, that party member <font color=#F05000>is healed for 10...28...33 Health.
 * Same idea as Ballad of Restoration here, making this skill more like Song of Purification should make it better (i.e. less broken, not more powerful) and allow the recharge to be put back to what it was. In terms of using it, this now heals for slightly less overall but recharges faster, making it slightly better than it was previously (so some people might start taking it again). In terms of balance, it's a bit more powerful but, like Ballad of Restoration, is less broken.

Desocupado's Issue -- (20:39, 4 December 2008 (GMT-3))

 * Issue
 * Paragons skills can, mostly, only be used only by them.
 * Paragons don't work a too well on RA (or other 4 person party situation)
 * Recharge time of adrenaline skills were nerfed to oblivion because of Leadership.


 * Suggestion
 * Leadership could instead of "You gain 1 Energy for each ally affected by one of your Shouts or Chants (maximum 1 Energy for every 2 ranks).;" do the following:


 * '''"Your shout and chant skill cost 5% less energy per rank every time you use a Shout or a Chant within the earshot of 4 or more allies."

'''


 * If this change is made, adrenaline shouts and chants would once again become usable by warriors and every other profession. Actually, even paragon's skills would be used by other profession more if they are properly balanced.
 * Even warriors would be able to use paragon skills, if their energy costs drop a bit, but still the advantage would be to the former, due to a larger energy pool that drops slower at the beginning of the battle.

Ballam's Issue --(Lack of Flexibility Synergy and Purpose)

 * issue
 * Leadership as an energy management attributes Gimps paragons in smaller groups
 * Command and Motivations have ill-defined purposes
 * Majority of paragon skills are like reversal of fortune with a 30 second recharge time :(


 * Suggestions
 * Starting with leaderships, leadership should be more like Ranger Expertise, of course only effecting Paragon Skills and Shouts, with an additional boost for being near allies for example 3% reduction in skill cost per rank with an additional 1% reduction for each ally within earshot. also leadership skills should be focused more on the paragon personal performance (lead by example) this way paragon that choose not to play a support roll and simple wish to be a spear chucker can do so effectively (something isn't right when almost every fighter class can more effectively use spears than the paragon!)


 * Command and Motivation have poorly defined purposes most notable Command which appears to have offensive purpose but skills like Never Give Up seem out of place. Rework command skills to give a clear offensive buff and motivation to give a clear defensive buff.


 * Paragon skills should provide a lasting but subtle effect. many have made suggestion to ballad of restoration similar to this 10 energy 1 sec activation 20 second recharge time for 15 second allies within each shot have 1-4 health regen or gain 2-8 health per second. Most paragon shouts and chants should have a mechanic similar to this giving a subtle effect while active then ending.


 * Taking a Lesson from Assassins here, I would like to suggest making paragon skills similar to Dagger attacks, in the way that dagger attacks are chainable in a fixed order Lead, offhand, dual. Paragon shouts and chants should have a similar mechanic Intro Medium and Finale. Intro shouts and chants would have subtle long duration effects and allow the use of Medium shouts/chants, which would have a greater but shorter lasting effects and allow the use of Finales which would have the GREAT and short lasting effects., and would end all Intro and Middle shouts and chants when the Finale ends. This makes multi paragon team less effective because multiple paragons would break each other’s skill chains taking the Song in a different direction and lessoning the overall effects. Kind of what it would be like if sin attack marks affected other sins. In most situation you could have only 3 shouts and chants active on allies at any given time because most paragon shouts and chants would fall into one of the three tiers replacing the old and of course, forcing them to follow a predictable pattern., this also prevents paragons from using powerful shouts and chants whenever they choose as they would have to work their way through the song. Sure they could rush it but since each higher Tier of the song has a shorter duration than the one before, doing so would simply bring the Song to an end prematurely... this allows the paragon to point their team in a defensive or offensive direction by increasing the intensity as the song continues then ending abruptly. Of course there would be the odd ball shout or chant here or there that you can throw in to give additional effect that wouldn’t break the chain kind of like using malicious strike in the middle of a dagger combo. Adds a little something but doesn’t affect the chain. All Intro Middle and Finale Shouts should have a Casting time allowing foes a small opportunity to interrupt them. In addition shouts and chants should be effected by dazed in that dazed in that it would double casting time but preferable not make them easily interruptible. Of course skills that interact with spells to cause daze would also affect shouts and chants. So would chocking gas (trying singing and suffocating at the same time. doesn’t work to well). Skills that strip enchantments would also strip a chant shout OR echo as well.


 * these are BIG changes but I think most of the GW community would agree that much larger steps need to be taken to help paragons integrate smoothly into the game w/o become Over or Underpowered... the suggestions above solve the issues with multi paragon team your: Makes it easier to counter paragon effects. Yet also makes paragon more effective support in groups of all sizes though most noticeably while near many allies. Require some thought to chain paragon shouts and chants to create the desired effect when your party needs it; and makes paragons generally more flexible. Your standard paragon would most likely carry 3 shouts and chants(intro middle finale) as well as 1-2 oddball shout or utility skill, 2-3 attack skills and a resurrect174.144.68.130 15:12, 31 January 2009 (UTC)


 * update, thought about it a bit more and realized that the stronger Finale affects could be spammed by 8 paragon teams although it would take some coordination to pull off. Intro chants would be spam able to begin with and middle chants would be near maintainable any way with only a few seconds or so of lapse between there duration and the skill recharge, Finales are where it all comes together these would be the chants that make a BIG difference for the team. it’s important to note that when a finale ends it would strip intro and middle chants from the player, effectively ending the song but in addition each when finale ends it would mark all effected players with a irremovable status for the sake of this explanation let’s call it "Played Out". "Played Out" would prevent all affected player from being subject to Finales for a set amount of time. once again since a single paragon can maintain Intros and almost maintain Middle chants (someone with some musical knowledge help me come up with a better term than Middle please) there would be no advantage to having more than 2 paragons in your team since it would be impossible to be affected by Finale after Finale because of the effect of "Played Out". Like if one paragon were to reach the Finale stage and a second paragon were to reach the Finale stage before the first Paragons Finale ended, since you can’t have more than one of each stage of chant on you the second paragon would cancel out the first paragons Intro and Middle then when he reach the Finale stage it would end the original Finale immediately making all player subject to "played out" which makes the second paragons finale to end immediately after it begins and resetting the timer for "Played Out". Note that when the second paragon Finale ended the first paragon Finale it also ended all the previous stages chants as well. The reason I say there would be no point to having more than two paragons in your team is a single paragon would be all that’s needed to put your party in an Offensive position while the second paragon could be on standby to put the party in a defensive position. Any addition paragons would have to be simple spear chuckers. And no, all paragon team would not be effective under this system because Intro and Middle chants won’t be strong enough to save your life or kill the enemy. The Paragon in this case would be a utility for other professions allow offensive and defensive players to do their thing a little bit better. W/o the standard dedicated support and dmg team members the effect wouldn't be great enough to hand your team the victory they so desire. While yes Finales would be considerable stronger because Finales would have very short durations, end all previous stages when they end, are unspamable or even able to be used in tandem a full paragon team will simple have a brief moment of glory before it all comes falling down around them.


 * Going a bit deeper still into the mechanic. Intro Middle and Finale skills will all be chants. (The paragon sings and allies around him are affected). Echoes would be like solos that the paragon could instruct another team mate to perform this would give a particular party member an added boost Note: echoes can not target the casting paragon. (Kind of like when you geek out and try to sing the lead and backup parts to your favorite song... doesn’t end well) And PARAGON shouts would act much in the same way that many existing paragon skills act now (Reversal of fortune with a 30 second recharge time!) they would have a conditional effect with a short window of opportunity to take advantage of it, and would of course have a LONG recharge time. All this allows a skilled paragon to weave an intricate web of melody around their party members. Ballam 174.144.234.11 09:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

-- Side note not realy related to the above, Someone made an intersting suggestion about Cant touch this the link to wich u can find above. it they suggested that it cause foes near the caster to miss with attack 10% of the time and a certain amount of touch skill to fail. now this realy doesnt make sence given the curent mechanic of the chants. as this would make it a chant that is applied to your enemies. now there are curenty shouts that effect foes but non are applied to them. i personally dont agree with his sugestion but it does inspire an intersting game mechanic to consider if one were to rework chants...

Perhaps if paragon shouts and chants where like the presence of a spirit, the paragon would be the only one with an actually buff on him though it would affect all allies or Foes within range. to counter the effects simply remove the buff from the paragon, or remove the paragon by conventional means. just a thought70.6.17.110 10:05, 6 February 2009 (UTC)