User talk:Linsey Murdock/Skill balance1

any further plans to nerf Shadow Form
I thought that other farming builds would be able to do the UW like the Perma SF Sin can and they can't?How are they suppose to if they don't have SF Sin.This makes it harder for thos who want to get thier set of FoW armour before GW2 comes out and are casual farmers or GW gamers.I would like to see more balances towards other builds or this one. 23:38 27 August 2008 (UTC)

The Developer Update said they are still keeping an eye on Shadow Form even though they severely nerfed it with a 50% damage penalty. According to the dev update, they have plans to make sure SF can't be kept up indefinitely. So, does this mean that now only it would end perma-shadow UW farming, but will make boss farming impossible (the build is used for boss farming before Arena Net played the nerf card). Apparently, because when they nerfed the skill, I was so PO'ed that I held a protest.--Dark Paladin X 03:49, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * We want to actually dial back the damage penalty so that the non-perma SF users like boss killers and raptor farmers will be able to actually kill things again. We didn't say anything about making it so that you can't keep up SF permanently, nor do we have plans to do that. I prefer to address their ability to farm Chaos Plains directly rather than continue to hit the skill and hurt all the other farming builds. However, keep in mind, we don't want to completely eliminate the SF sin's ability to farm in UW. We just want to slow it down enough so that it's equal to the other farming builds/areas like the Smite fields. - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 04:04, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Just as long as 600/Smite/Famine can still pull off a good run anywhere, I'm happy. --Wolf [[Image:User Great Darkwolf User Image paw.png|19px| ]] 04:31, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * which the change did do it is fine now. The UW part not the -50% damage part. Just remove that and leave everything else alone and it will be fine, unless your now listening to those whinny few that made a currency out of something that was never intended to be currency in the first place. If thats the case I want compensation for the near 40 million in gold value I lost in ectos since they were 20k each.(Thats kinda joking around while being serious) Manitoba1073 06:01, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * But if we take off the damage penalty then we have to re-adjust the Chaos Plains. What we did was a good start, but it didn't quite get the run to where we want it to be and it hurt other ways to use SF more than we would have liked. So we are going to tweak it some more. I think that what we have coming out is a better solution and I'm hopeful that we won't have to touch it again. - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 06:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * There would be no need to further tweak UW if you removed the -50% damage from SF. Take the example of when I gave one of the devs the idea for the dieng nightmare long ago. That was a perfect fix. It removed the chance for automation of farming there. There was no way it was botable in the chaos plains. Getting there was almost a 50/50 chance depending on the spawn of behemoths. If you want I can help you with what you are doing there, IGN Tarn Vedre. I give honest opinions.Ill be on my Sin for a little while this morning"SHIN MIA"Manitoba1073 07:34, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Permanent invincibility requiring zero skill is not balanced. If just the -50% damage was removed, it would be perfectly maintainable, meaning that you would be invincible in every zone without indirect enchantment removal. In other words, about 90% of all areas. The best option, imo, would be to return the skill to what it was before the buff. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 08:11, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Linsey, why didn't anet consider restoring it to it's previous state?, It was perfect the way it was. Btw, is there really a reason why are we permitted to trade up to 100k only? --M age [[image:user MageMontu sig.png| ]]M ontu 08:14, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Roll SF back to its pre buff state. infinte invulnerability should not be possible. remove the -50% dmg reduction and reduce the duration so it cannot be kept up continuously. SF was used alot before the buff, and will be again once its fixed --Just One More Thing 19:22, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Even pre-buff it was possible to keep up infinitely. It was just really really hard to. You used Arcane Echo, Deadly Paradox and Shadow Form together in a chain of Deadly Paradox -> Arcane Echo -> Shadow Form -> Echoed Shadow Form -> repeat. However, if you were off on your timing of the echoed Shadow Form, even by 1 second, you would not be able to keep it up. Use it a second too soon and the echoed shadow form would end a second before you could use your next shadow form. Use it a second too late and Arcane Echo would end and you wouldn't be able to use your second shadow form at all. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 19:37, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Removing the damage penalty entirely would absolutely speed up the the ability to farm ecto in the Chaos Plains. Adding something like the dying nightmares would not preserve the Assassin's ability to farm that area. Who said that we never considered reverting SF back to it's pre-buffed state? Sure we did but that's not something we wanted to do and would rather explore other options. - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 11:08, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * so having 1 character being able to solo an elite area for the most expensive crafting material is acceptable, with infinte invulnerability? removing the dmg penalty would only be done in combination with a reduction in SFs duration. it would still provide farmers with a small window of opportunity to farm. the skills invulnerability is balanced by the fact it only lasted a short time before reducing the casters health substantially. it has advantages and disadvantages. you had to weight up the risk with the possible reward. god mode shouldnt exist in guildwars --Just One More Thing 14:44, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I suggest you learn a little more about SF before calling it infinite invulnerabitity. It is not invinciable at all. Manitoba1073 23:37, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "All hostile Spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss", combined with other skills that keep SF up permanently without downtime. And since you cant take any dmg when its up, I think infinite invulnerabitity is accurate. You know fine well what meant --Just One More Thing 00:36, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * At none point does it say "you can't take any damage". You're imagining things. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:User_Poki_Signature.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]] 00:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Fine, if you want to be pedantic about it, you cant take direct damage, but you can take it from untargetd AoE and things like traps. no doubt theres more to be pointed out. none of that matters since in the context that the skill is used, it is highly efficient in enabling the player to remain unhurt while dealing out dmg and easily farm areas that previously were harder to farm. --Just One More Thing 01:49, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * And yet thats still a far ways from being invinciable now isnt it.And no things werent that harder to farm before.Manitoba1073 01:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Which profession can't farm a lot of things without worrying about dying? That is assuming you're not a total idiot, and if you're that bad then you will fail with SF also. -- Inspired to ____ 02:00, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Linsey, is there a reason why the Mindblade Spectres are melee? Other then making them bunch up nicely to farm, I can't see a reason for it. -- Inspired to ____ 02:05, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * O.o Good point, just make them ranged and your set. -- Wolf  [[Image:User Great Darkwolf User Image paw.png|19px| ]] 03:27, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That's actually one of the hand full of things that we are doing. - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 03:36, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, will be interesting to see how it all fits together. Hopefully, most things interact as planned to achieve your desired results (even if I probably won't agree with them all). -- Inspired to ____ 13:51, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Will the UW changes and SF buff happen in next update? Yes - Linsey talk 19:46, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * why not just accept that it was a bad idea to buff it in the first place and not change various things in uw around? on the other hand, how's the change to ursan and buff to unused elites going? --Cursed Angel [[Image:User Cursed Angel Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 19:59, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Are you testing changes at all? I mean checking if the 50% damage penalty would kill other SF farms shouldn´t be that hard to do.

Regarding Way of The Assassin.
Heya, I was curious why WoTA was nerfed in not only PvP but also PvE. Was it overpowered with people running like critical spears or....? I'm not sure why it was nerfed in PvE, so I thought I would ask. I wouldn't think that someone running the original state with a scythe/spear/bow etc in PvE would be over powered, but maybe it would I'm not sure. Thanks! Naru 02:30, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Apparently nobody here has anything to add to this comment.... lol XD

Can anyone here come up with a build that could abuse this skill in its original buffed state? (33% attack faster and 35% critical or w/e) Naru 22:49, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Use sins remedy wearying and mystic + some other things and things die automaticly (wether they got prot or not) Lilondra 18:33, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Seems to be it got buffed for dagger sins...  Before, you had to be enchanted to get the effect, and it gave no speed boosts.  Now the only downside is that you need to use daggers to get the effect. -- [[Image:User_Alaris_sig.JPG|Alaris_sig]] Alaris 19:03, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * To clear up what I'm saying is, After it was buffed it was put at a 33% faster attack and 33%+ critical chance, then it was nerfed due to PvP play. What I want is for it to get un nerfed in PvE because I don't think it can have a neggative effect.

I'll make a note of this and talk to Izzy about it. - Linsey talk 17:51, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Fixing Weird Adrenaline Costs
Hey, Warrior skills have been weird for some time with their Adrenaline costs and the concept of "strikes". Paragons are 100% correct, their skills cost 25 "points" (which is 1 strike) x the displayed cost, however Warrior skills are largely inaccurate, Enraged Smash and Whirling Axe cost 40 "points", not 50, and several skills which say they cost 4, 5, or 6 strikes, actually cost different amounts of points than other skills that say they cost 4, 5, or 6 strikes. Good example: Sever Artery costs 100 points (which is 4 strikes, as it should be.) but Rush costs 80 points. They both display 4 strikes in-game but this is largely incorrect. This is something that should be corrected because the key to mechanics is that they are a "rule" basically. This difference in cost, while minor (I doubt anyone notices too much), is no different than a skill saying it costs 5 energy but it actually takes 4/6 energy away from you, or a skill saying it causes Exhaustion but it gives you an Exhaustion of 9 instead of 10.. Basically I'm wondering if you could put all the Warrior skills affected in-line with the Paragon system of costing 25 x # of listed strikes, since that would actually be correct per their tooltips. DarkNecrid 05:36, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Minor Edit: Basically this is important imo because they are called strikes and a skill may say it costs 4 strikes but not be filled up as another skill that costs 4 strikes because Warrior's also gain points for every 1% of their HP they lose + from Balthazar's Spirit, etc. So you can technically have 2 four strike skills on your bar, (not used any so you havent lost adrenaline) one full and the other not, and that's very weird when you think about it. DarkNecrid 05:57, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Weird, yes, but this is how Izzy and James designed it and balanced the whole class around. I do not want to take on the project of re-designing the system and rebalancing it because of this minor detail. - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 20:44, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

600/smite
Why does Anet reward so much a style of playing that has NOTHING to do with an online multiplayer game? perma-SF, 600 smite, etc. It induces ppl to effectively cheat their way through PvE instead of actually playing it. It reduces most dungeons to one person "playing" and others sitting around doing nothing. IS this what guild wars is supposed to be? I thought, silly me, that it meant you had to actually create strategies, cooperate, do TEAM WORK. Screw all thart right? 189.33.72.194 12:41, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not sure what you are trying to achieve by posting the same thing twice. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 13:43, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * So... don't do it. Most people I know play normally the first time(s) around, and use these things only to max their rep titles, or as source of income. Besides, many dungeons and missions can't be run, or runners don't like running them, so you end up having to play most of the game normally. -- [[Image:User_Alaris_sig.JPG|Alaris_sig]] Alaris 14:38, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I can see where the frustration for some is coming from. If they had tried to find a group when EotN was released they would have had no problem but I think most people are grinding titles (or in my case want a special drop – Storm Daggers for me).  The fun is gone for most people and they are just grinding or farming.  Now we have new players buying the game and they find it impossible to find groups.  My suggestion would be to get your heroes some good builds and full equipment and you can complete any dungeon in normal mode.  Also joining a guild that does elite dungeons / missions that cannot be run (slaver’s, the deep, domain of anguish, and Urgoz's Warren) may be a good start.  Running is fun too give it a try.--Shayne123 16:23, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Slavers? Only the VS farm is ever being done there, and that involves cheating. Deep? Uninhabited. DoA? Do not bother trying to get in there without the biggest offenders in cheating. Shadow Form, Cry of Pain, Pain Inverter, and Spirit Bond all encourage mindless farming in areas that should be challenges. PvE is a joke. Koda Kumi [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_UT.jpeg‎|19px]] talk 22:02, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * If PvE is "indeed" a Joke, then it's only because so many of the encounters are designed to reward minmaxxing, thus reduce the "Grind Time" involved. A good example of PvE content that runs counter to this however would be the complete Vanguard Arc and side-quests. The player gets to fill a larger variety of team roles against mixed-profession Foes(the Charr), one step at a time.  The sum of its Parts is not as rewarding as its Whole.  Anet Clearly tried to incentivize more of this playstyle with their StoryLine-Books but they made two critical omittances:
 * The rewards for completing each set of arcs is skewed too heavily towards HardMode only which is NOT where the majority of casual players dare tread. And the rewards in general are still Laughable compared to straight up Farming.
 * Players are not incentivized in any way to team up with "newbz". Go look in almost any mission location in Prophecies and witness the cries of "LF Monk", then go stand in Bergan Hotsprings for 5 seconds...  HUGE DISCONNECT <-- that's what you call it when players are not rewarded for the cumulative challenge they're taking on but rather given instant reward for "one piece" of what was intended as a journey.
 * The whole system(including the economy) would be a lot less gameable if Sociable Behavior was a n on-going reward-multiplier while anti-social behavior was penalized with diminishing returns. -- ilr  00:28, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * This is a philosophical question of the overall design of Guild Wars and that just isn't something that I can answer. Aside from that, please don't post the same topic on my page and Regina's as it splinters discussion and can potentially waste both mine and Regina's time. - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 01:23, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Seeping Wound
I tried placing this on Izzy's page, seeping wound's page, and Seeping Wound's skill feedback page, but I didn't get an answer for over a week (I'm assuming Izzy never comes here) so I'll ask you. What type of damage does Seeping Wound do? It's not physical, because it doesn't trigger barbs or MoP. It's not elemental, because it doesn't work with stone striker. It's not health loss or life stealing, because it's affected by armor. And it's not holy damage, because it doesn't deal more damage to the undead. So, what in the world is it? 75.61.32.166 21:29, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Damage_type It does typeless, as does many other skills. DarkNecrid 02:41, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Typeless damage, huh? Why is typeless damage affected by armor, then? 75.61.32.166 18:25, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * To clarify what I meant by that, typeless damage is always armor-ignoring. Seeping wound doesn't ignore armor, therefore seeping wound can't be typeless damage. 75.61.32.166 18:27, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Could be Dark or Chaos damage, both of which use the normal damage calculation involving armour but are not connected to physical or elemental damage (My bet is on Dark Damage, though, due to it being an assassin skill, not a mes skill) - Poidrac
 * No damage type is guaranteed to 100% ignore armor, case and point: Holy damage (a damage type renowned for being armor ignoring), while largely armor ignoring, doesn't have to be (Avatar of Balthazar, etc.). Typeless damage doesn't always ignore armor, it's just damage that doesn't have a type (which does carry the benefit of being unable to use elemental shields vs it.) that is largely known for ignoring armor (like Holy). It probably isn't Chaos or Dark because those are always listed, but it could be an error on the skill description writer(s) part. But it is most likely typeless. DarkNecrid 19:39, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Typeless damage isn't always armor ignoring? I can't think of a typeless damage skill that isn't armor ignoring. Could you give an example? 75.61.32.166 20:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Seeping Wound 76.188.100.220 20:53, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Besides seeping wound (dur), plus no one technically knows if seeping wound is typeless or not. And I have a hard time believing that typeless damage isn't always armor ignoring. That's why I'm asking for an example of a skill that isn't. 75.61.32.166 21:16, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Did you read the description of typeless damage in the link above, perhaps? Armor ignoring is not mentioned at all. Just like there can be armor ignoring elemental damage (see: Mirror of Ice), and non-armor ignoring holy damage (see: Avatar of Balthazar), there can be non-armor ignoring typeless damage (see: Seeping Wound). Whether something is armor ignoring or not is indepedent of its damage type. All typeless damage is, is damage that doesn't have a type. That is it. It can be armor ignoring or not, damage over time or direct or AoE, etc. The description of typeless damage is nothing but a typeless damage of which Seeping Wound is until Linsey says it's something they forgot to set. (which is unlikely, Sins don't deal Chaos or Dark damage in anything, and it isn't any other type.) Just because it hasn't been done before doesn't automatically mean it isn't true. We went awhile without a non-armor ignoring Holy damage skill too, but now we have several. DarkNecrid 22:38, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not disagreeing with you, what I'm saying is that it's unprecedented and there's no proof that it's typeless damage, which leads me to believe that it's not typeless damage. And yes, I did read the description of typeless damage, but all the skills that deal typeless damage that I'm aware of are armor-ignoring....so, it would make sense if Seeping Wound did too. Just saying. 75.61.32.166 23:35, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Resetting Indent. Here is a little bit of obfuscation and declarification. These are in order of precedent.
 * Regardless of the type of damage dealt by weapons it does not ignore armor. (Whirling defense deals physical and ignores armor..note its not an attack)
 * However bonus damage from weapon attack skills DOES ignore armor.
 * With a few exceptions like mirror of ice, acid traps, and dust trap all elemental damage does not ignore armor.
 * Holy damage, shadow damage, chaos, etc ignore armor unless otherwise specified as above.

You can almost generalize this as, all non elemental damage ignores armor, except when used to attack, and some elemental damage does. Now I'm not sure if this is useful to anyone, but I'll just leave it here. Regardless seeping wound should ignore armor because it is almost useless without doing so. Kelvin Greyheart 00:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Technobabble doesn't ignore armor. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 08:32, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please don't take this as me being argumentative, but has anyone tested the possibilities of technobable doing some other type of damage thoroughly? I see no mention of anything in the discussion page (though I must admit I have not looked elsewhere).  I just find it odd that these seem to be the only two skills to break this general rule.  Untyped damage has always been armor ignoring in the past unless I'm missing something basic that has been around a long time.


 * I must also admit that there really isn't any official word on what makes a skill ignore armor, but it just seems odd to break precedent in such a way.  Kelvin Greyheart 04:49, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Seeping Wound does Chaos Damage. Technobabble does generic magic damage. - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 23:49, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Fort Aspenwood now unbalanced
With the recent update there has been a significant change to how Fort Aspenwood plays. Because the difficulty for the Kurzicks to win is based on how long they can hold out, lowering the amount of time by 5 minutes (which is A LOT) makes it significantly harder to win on the Luxon side.

I agree the amount of time to win was unfair compared to how quickly Luxons could win but it has become to easy to hold out with a significant 5 minute cut in time. A better way to shorten game length while also encouraging active play instead of a passive holding out would be to leave the old time limit but increase gains from running amber.

With the new changes, a Kurzick team can dominate the field without giving the Luxons enough time to break through all the npc defence. The only victory condition is have Gunther live for the time duration, shortening it gives a Kurzick team a passive advantage. A quick Luxon victory requires the Luxons to actively kill npcs, prevent gate repairs/mine take overs and push quickly through all the defence as well as player interuption, which is VERY rare and often made difficult by monks/ritualists hiding behind gates. That's hardly a comparison to the large time cut. Otherwise, this was a fantastic update, many nice changes. 123.200.230.174 10:51, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Uh? Bring enchantment removals, please, and use them when the turtle shoots. Breaking gates give you guys lots of faction, and it should be really easy to break gates. Pure healing is really bad on the kurzick side, so there aren't excuses not to be able to down gates easily with enchant removals.Pika Fan 10:59, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That didn't address the issues I mentioned at all. You just mentioned generic strategies. Enchantment removal, even as powerful as a successful well of profane, doesn't guarantee success OR a broken gate. 123.200.230.174 12:01, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * i monk on kurz and i do think this is unbalancing in kurz favor. i agree that the better answer to this issue is to increase gains from running amber. you could have given time a time advantage for even regular amber and give a significant time advantage for refined amber. the presence of a single competent monk can keep the siege turtle and opps from breaching both gates on one side for a significant amount of time against most teams. many times even against well of the profane. sometimes even against guild syncers. when monking, even when i lose the opps generally have fewer than 5 mins left to play. before this update, i felt like i could win at least 3/5 matches as a monk if not 4/5. i'm going to guess my win rate is going to be closer to 9/10 as a monk from now on.
 * even if i'm wrong about my win rate going that high, this still encourages defensive instead of offensive play. hiding behind a wall for the entire match isn't as enjoyable as confronting the lux out at the mines. -- VVong | BA 20:04, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree FA is now imbalenced, the kurzicks can easily win. Yes i know "just bring enchant removal etc." doesnt happen. even if i do, thats one remover out of 8 plus a leecher usually. my guess is if its not fixed FA will still be full of kurzicks, and little to no luxons. Increase the gain from amber maybe? but the time cut is killing the luxons. 69.148.19.13 22:39, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, fix the turtles. They've been broken since Factions came out. If the Kurzicks kill a turtle but leave the warriors alone, the turtle won't respawn. This is compounded by the fact that when the turtle is dead, the warriors won't move from their spot, making it easy to ignore them. This can be fixed by either making the warriors charge ahead, and either killing or getting killed, or have the turtle respawn, create for 4 new warriors, and kill the previous ones. --Macros 13:22, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Aspenwood is effectively the new FFF for Kurzick. The Kurzick side is flooded with players while the Luxon side is practically empty. When the faction reward got upped, AB crowd moved to Aspenwood and nowadays you see pretty much just Kurzick teams with the majority healers and a few odd rangers to distract the turtles. It's not fun anymore and I wish you would look into it some more in the near future. I would be very interested to know what the win/lose rate is for both sides after the update.

The bad thing is that even a subpar Kurzick team can win if they just have a few good healers backing them up, but Luxon pretty much have to have a full team (no leechers) geared on anti-enchanting and anti-healing and actually would need to communicate during the match - and we know how well that usually goes with random PvP. --Gwyd 21:25, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I am interested in how people feel about FA at this point, since I made changes to the turtle siege attack. Feedback most welcome, walls of text discouraged yet expected ! - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 06:38, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Since you asked for feedback, I shall give mine. While I haven't played FA a lot since the title update, I like the update to the siege turtle. For the record, I am, always have, and until GW2 always will be a Kurzick. The reason why I like the siege turtle's attack's change is because it fits with lore still - as the Jade is suppose to have "magical properties." I think it would be fun to add this change to all siege turtles (Eternal Groove, Gyala Hatchery, Jade Quarry, and the summoning stones) if it wasn't done to all (don't think it was). -- Konig Des Todes 21:16, 12 January 2009 (UTC


 * I like the enchantment removal part, but the "hard to interrupt" bit is too much luck in an area already filled with too much uncertainty. That said it's almost needed, otherwise a mez or ranger can keep the turtle locked down. Not sure what to think about it now. ~Seef II &lt;◈|۞&gt; 21:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I kinda assumed you had access to statistics as to the win/loss for each side. And it's not really "FFF" if there's no Luxons joining. 76.84.34.210 03:28, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

un-used skills
When there are updates they sometimes change skills totally but how about changing some skills who aren't used since 2/3year? for instance the skill Protective bond or Pacifism. I will go in the last one for as explenation. People dont use this skill since blinding is way more effectif way to stop attacking but maybe you guys could make it(Spell. For 8...18...20 seconds, target foe cannot cast skills on you. This effect ends if the target takes damage.) Then it would be a good skill for monks to disable a mesmer of instance. And it will only work at 1target so it isnt that overpowered and other people in HA for instance can attack him. So how about changing those skills who are nerfed in such way they arent used these days. By giving them other descriptions instead of 90sec recharde or you lose 6energie each time. (example)  Death Sligher  19:57, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

(comments moved to below)


 * No the just added 6energie each hit to that skill. But I mean now almost nobody uses it, I think they can better change the skill totally. Just as they do with other skills now a day. But in the time they did change this skill they didn't restyle a whole skill. But now they do.  Death Sligher [[Image:User_Death_Sligher_Dragon_Eye.png|talk: Death Sligher]] 21:51, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

(comments moved to below)


 * Tnx kelvin I was trying to say that with my second post I am not talking about server who are hanging up amoung using skills lol. I just want your ideas about changing skills who arent used at all, in sort. And if anet needs to change them or just nerf them in a way people cant use them anymore at all.  Death Sligher [[Image:User_Death_Sligher_Dragon_Eye.png|talk: Death Sligher]] 00:35, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Protective bond
I have created a seperate subsection for this as I feel that I am hijacking the topic above this otherwise. Relevant comments have been moved. Kelvin Greyheart 04:40, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * They'd have to functionality change Prot Bond. It was nerfed to the way it is now because it's possible to crash the Anet servers with it through clever abuse of some skills. DarkNecrid 21:07, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I've heard of that and I just don't buy into that. They  never explained how it did that.  It can't be taking so many hits so fast because infinite aggro builds certainly don't crash anything other than peoples game clients cause they can't display the eleventy million billion numbers generated by some builds.  I cannot think of anything that could cause that from the skill.  Always seemed like a cover story to me, especially since you can still use it with several people maintaining it, and I haven't heard of any server crashes related to that.  (Once again I derail a topic)  Kelvin Greyheart 21:14, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The problem is is "eleventy million billion numbers" is just an overflow of your client, however if I remember correctly (I am 99% sure) the Protective Bond thing happened because you would send Guild Wars in a loop and it would display an infinite amount of numbers which would not only overflow the client BUT the server you were on because it can't take that. DarkNecrid 23:06, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * So they nerfed the skill so nobody would use it so they didn't have to fix a logic error in their code? Or was the error fixed?  It just doesn't add up.  I can't find any notes on fixing it because of this.  As mentioned I've used it with multiple people maintaining it and never had any problems.  If you can point me in the direction of what skill combination would break the skill and/or what was done to fix the skill so it didn't crash the server I would be most appreciative because as it stands I cannot find anything about it.  I don't doubt that there was an error, but going on the information I have it just doesn't make sense.  (I'd prefer to get this topic back on topic so to speak, so if you have an answer, please add it on my talk page)  Kelvin Greyheart 23:23, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * See this for the discussion about why Prot Bond was changed. User_talk:Isaiah_Cartwright/Izzy_Talk_Archive_1
 * All I can see with that is sloppy coding by someone unless by mindwrack izzy meant famine. No matter what order things happen in nothing dangerous should happen.  Lets assume someone has a net total of zero energy regeneration, one point of energy, and is enchanted with balth spirit, and maintaining protective bond.  Mindwrack should be checking constantly, and by that, whenever a persons energy value changes.  Energy values are not in fact integers as can be seen when casting maintained enchantments and ending up with +- one energy when done casting with and ending up with zero energy regeneration.  This means that logically speaking mind wrack is checking several times a second on a typical 4 regen bar, and dozens of times a second potentially on a target with any energy gain or loss skills on them.  This is why famine can trigger so often because the target does not ever need to fully regenerate a point of energy.  However lets assume that our target has a single point of energy, with no uncertainty associated with it.  There are two options for the order of triggering prot bond and balth spirit.


 * balth spirit, then prot bond.
 * prot bond, then balth spirit.


 * The first case is the target is hit, gaining one point of energy, going to two, and not triggering mind wrack then loosing a point to protective bond going back to one energy and still not triggering mind wrack.
 * The second one is of more interest since something actually happens. Protective bond triggers reducing energy to zero.  Now at this point there are two options, both of which should trigger something.
 * Option one is that balh spirit triggers before mind wrack and brings your energy back up to one. However the call to mind wrack still went out, it simply was cued to trigger after the other actions had completed.  The target takes mind wrack damage and the hex ends.  prot bond triggers putting the target back at zero energy, and then balth spirit triggers putting them back at one energy with no loss of enchantments.
 * Option two is that mind wrack goes off before balth spirit triggers energy gain resulting in the triggering of protective bond again which will end it, then two triggers of balth spirit to bring your energy up to two. (Stopping now while I do a touch of thinking)  Kelvin Greyheart 04:40, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * So lets say that instead of mind wrack the target is under famine. Thus I must assume that this issue is caused by item two, option 1.  That would generate an infinite loop.  However it is still possible to reduce the energy loss from protective bond to one point if several people maintain it on the same person.  More to the point it is possible to reduce it to two energy can cancel that with both balthazzars spirit and essence bond.  I am tempted to experiment with this to see if it still causes a loop.  I cannot however say that dropping thousands of people is a pleasing prospect so I probably won't test it, and if I do it will be in a very low populous area at 2-3AM their time.  Kelvin Greyheart 04:48, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is still possible to do it through the way you mentioned I do believe (never tested), however you wouldn't be dropping insane amounts of people as it only crashes the server you are on, not all of the servers. DarkNecrid 16:05, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

(RI)I am aware of that, however I believe I explained that I would be doing it in an area with very few people at 2-3 AM their time which would imply I would only be taking out one server. Even then that is still potentially several thousand people and I cannot say that I find the prospect pleasing so I will most likely not see if it still causes a game crash or if they were smart and specifically added some exceptions for this scenario. Kelvin Greyheart 03:04, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well mind wreck is fixed it now only triggers one time, only option is using famine. You would need to have 2 prot heros with prot bonds and essence and 1prot bond + balt spirit on yourself then someone on the other side needs to use famine and some sort of spell to give you 0energie to let this work and the change these things meet at a gvg are very very small and in pve I dont think there are placed were famine is and someone who cast your energie to 0energie exatly. And then 0energie would mean dmg dmg means one energie but then you need something again to remove this 1energie but we dont have a spell who says you lose 1energie after gaining one so i think it isnt possible anymore. or maybe some sort of mesmer skill so you need 3monks and 1r/me. 62.133.217.136 09:29, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Shiroken have famine. That problem is solved.  Even then you could still do this without them and have a hero bring it instead. You can reach one energy easily simply by upkeeping several maintained enchantments and canceling at the proper time.  All you need is 3 monks and one ranger.  They all maintain prot bond on everyone.  They all maintain balth spirit on themselves.  They all use an extra maintained enchantment to to get down to 6 (or 11) energy then cancel it.  The ranger hero puts down famine.   They all cast healing hands on themselves, or healing seed on eachother.  One person takes one hit and its instant explosion as famine triggers on all 3 monks, sending all 3 into an infinite loop that grows exponentially.  Every time one of them takes a hit, they ALL take another hit.  1 hit triggers 1 hit on each.  1 hit on each triggers 3 hits on each.  So its 1, 3, 9, 27, 81 etc.  With enchanting mods thats optimally 12 seconds, more realistically 10 or so to completely nuke the server.  Since famine doesn't trigger essence bond you can't just have one person taking the hits since the other maintainers will run out of energy.  Everyone has to be taking hits to keep up energy through balth spirit.


 * @ Your comment about the loosing energy. The damage from famine triggers prot bond again, thus loosing energy, and regaining it with balth spirit.  Kelvin Greyheart 20:08, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Prot Bond was nerfed before Factions was out. The problem was not Famine, but the way Mind Wrack was coded. First it checked if the target was at 0 energy before anything else, then sent a positive result and does a damage calculation, and then did the damage, removed Mind Wrack and displayed the damage animation. If it would be removed as soon as the recipient's damage would hit 0, the whole problem could be solved without ever touching Prot Bond. But hey, solving bugs takes time, right? Koda Kumi [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_UT.jpeg‎|19px]] talk 12:29, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't have an intention to change Prot Bond at this time. - Linsey talk 06:23, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Skill balancing
I have come to appreciate how overworked and overloaded you are, it's no easy task, and I apologize for barging in before about 600 smites and shadow form in a cavalier manner. Lemme try to rephrase it - In the past, anet has "cracked down" on skills or builds that made pve "too easy" or too homogeneous. Take ursan for instance, it steamrolled over so many different areas, it cramped down on diversity and creativity - it was all about having a bunch of rank 10 ursans. Has that stance changed? Do you consider that at this pt in the game, it's ok to do underworld in 15 minutes (or something like that, havent been there in ages)? I mean this without malice - Is it that at this late point in the game, its alright to make it all easier somehow? I mean, let the players romp through the "elite" areas, let them have some fun "cheating" (i dont mean that literally), is that it? There are still a few new players in the game, and most are not finding many people to do what they want to do (say, dungeons), so its usually easier to just "hire" someone, and maybe thats a good thing for the game? Thank you in advance for taking the time to consider the more general position - regardless of specific skills, and if this violates your posting rules somehow, feel free to delete it without answering. 201.6.64.49 16:46, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well... Shadow form was the reason I left PvE completely. The new(half year old) UWSC does the same thing ursan did. with the difference that ursan was slower. And teamwork doesn't even apply there: people solo all areas except vale, where goes a two-man group.
 * Paragons are still bad in PvE (and in PvP). Imbagons are the only viable ones, and that's mainly because both motivation and command lines are poorly designed. (laughs at "help me") there are many solutions for the problem, I don't want to list all of them, but some good examples I have found:
 * Can't Touch this
 * Suggestion
 * Energy cost to 5, recharge to 20s, duration to 10s. "For 10 seconds, the next  touch skills or attack skills against target ally fail."
 * Stand Your Ground
 * suggestion
 * "For seconds all party members within earshot cannot be knock down. (10, 15 )"
 * Aggressive Refrain
 * Suggestion
 * For seconds, you attack % faster, but you have –  armour while attacking. (15, 2 , 25 )."


 * and there are more... Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 17:04, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

"For seconds all party members within earshot cannot be knock down. (10, 15 )"
 * ArenaNet:Skill feedback, please. -- -Ch  ao  s-   17:17, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Please let's not take this to the muddy area of specific skill suggestions. We all have a bunch. I meant about the general balance of "skills that break the game / flatten diversity / encourage "solo" play" . I don't want to flood poor Linsey with a bunch of tiny ways i can make all the skills do what I want them to. I meant about something bigger, a general attitude towards this kind of skill, which i sense changed maybe out of accident (due to Izzy moving on and Linsey not having time to judge skill balance, and maybe because she's afraid to change things and make it worse). Or maybe thats an active decision, she believes that kind of play should be encouraged and that it's a "good thing" for the game. That's what I'm asking here. 201.6.64.49 17:58, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I meant Boro. Somewhat off-topic, I'm disappointed by having to grind titles to have effective PvE skills. It's kinda what GW promised there wouldn't be. -- -Ch  ao  s-   18:34, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I am disappointed too. But skills cannot be removed. And as a spell designer (working on a DS1project), I can say that minimalizing the differences between a max-ranked and a min-ranked PvE skill can solve the problem. Or maybe reducing/removing the grind needed for thoose titles (Yes I mean Further reducing. 11/13/08 update was good but not enough). Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 18:54, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Developers would rather goes at their eyes with scissors then remove grind, Boro. Guild Wars is grind-tastic, it sucked in Nightfall with Lightbringer and Sunspear but then they brought out Eye of the North and really showed how much the developers love grind.
 * Grind is a psychological factor as well.
 * The professions/skills/pve skills have needed a long hard look at for ages now, and with the PvE/PvP split - something I have enjoyed for the most part - it now requires a much harder look. Yet, I don't see any kind of profession/skill balance coming, I do see any reduction in grind coming other.  Developers do enjoy their eyes.  ^_^  000.00.00.00 19:31, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Sigh. Please stop hijacking my question :(. It is very simple: what is anet's stance on builds like 600/smite and shadow form: is it a) something good and desirable for the game, b) something that isn't good, but Linsey doesn't know how/when to solve it, or c) something that Linsey hasn't thought about yet to figure out if its good or bad. That's all. And yet, I can't get an answer. So frustrating. I understand how hard she works, but she obviously has time to answer some questions. So here - it is in multiple choice form. She can answer it in 5 seconds by picking a letter. Would be appreciated. :/ 201.6.64.49 15:00, 1 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah... I can see how she'd like that.......
 * I think, if you look through her pages of stuff about Shadowform that it's an A, consider they didn't Smiter's Boon it for PvE. They've spent a lot of time on Shadowform, it's been the topic of many debates,   I believe you should read this  000.00.00.00 18:16, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Anyway the A isn't very desirable for her: she and the team had worked insanely hard on Tombs and she shouldn't let it get ruined by Shadow form ecto farmers....
 * btw: linsey, play the game you design. it gives you lots of good ideas. Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 18:59, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * How is this stuff ruined by SF farming? How is anything ruined by 600 farming? You all do realize that any game where data and information are saved is a grind in every aspect. The differences are how diverse are the grinds.  Missions are diverse, Vanqing is fairly diverse, skill hunting is somewhat diverse. Even the PvE skill titles are diverse if you play through the game like i just listed.  Get Legendary Guardian, Legendary Vanquisher, Legendary Master of the North and tell me how much repetition is left for SS, LB, Norn, Asuran, etc.  It's not much.  These farms you are referring to, like UWSC, just get people who want in game accolades exactly what they want.  Tell me why that is a problem?  Bcs new players to the game can't join them? Please...It has taken these players who are doing these hours upon hours of game play and learning how to do these things. You can two man UW and FoW in NM with 6 heroes in 2-2 1/2 hours.  Besides people make friends new players will have a quicker learning curve then any of the players who have been around a while bcs of how readily information is available. Tell me how those farms hurt anything. ~>Sins  WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 23:04, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * How about the fact that everything save a handful of items is worthless? That's the direct result of the insane amount of farming in Guild Wars. Had farming been impossible, the prices would of course been low because the game is getting old, but at least there would still be something slightly resembling an economy. As for the second part, some people just don't like the fact someone can play through the missions that took their team several hours by himself in under 30 minutes. With a build that really doesn't take hours to learn, as you said. Farmers and exploits take the fun and the fantasy out of the game for others. It takes away the experience. 145.94.74.23 07:38, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "How about the fact that everything save a handful of items is worthless". So you believe that items should be difficult to obtain and/or limited so that people who get them have something "Valuable". Too many people are completely ignorant to the fact that this guild wars "economy" is driven by player demand. Now lets go with your insane idea to limit farming thereby decreasing potential supply.  Hmmm, woops demand is high too.  O well I guess that means since the only way these items are obtained is luck, and people can't effectively get these items thereby leaving a low supply, only those people who have played the game for X amount of hours have the resources to buy these items.  Uh Oh, that means people have been grinding for that long in order to get far less then what they would like out of their time.
 * "some people just don't like the fact someone can play through the missions that took their team several hours by himself in under 30 minutes". This is another brilliant mindset. It took me way longer to do X with Y and that person did X with Z 2 times as fast as me.  IT'S NOT FAIR, NERF NERF NERF.  Why don't you just try X with Z and see if you are skilled enough to finish 2 times as fast as well then?
 * "Farmers and exploits take the fun and the fantasy out of the game for others. It takes away the experience". Really? Because if I wanted to experience something in the game, I think I'd do it myself. Personally I don't want to experience 100 VSF farms without getting a Voltaic Spear, but you know what? Some people are ok with that bcs they are willing to experience 200 runs before getting one since it helps them gain some extra gold, extra experience at HB,BiP,RoJ, Permaform, etc. However since I do like to experience slaver's exile once in a while you know what I do? I go do slaver's exile. And you know what since I would like to experience getting a Voltaic Spear and giving it to a guildy as a gift, you know what I did? I went to someone who wanted to experience farming a voltaic spear and making 100k+15ecto off selling it.  And can you guess what my guildy who wanted to experience doing slaver's exile did even after having that voltaic spear.  He did slaver's exile.  And you know it would have been ok even if he didn't want to experience slavers.  You know why bcs the only reason he would have experienced it is bcs he wanted a voltaic spear.  Sounds to me like you want people to be forced to do things they may think is a waste of time or just plain don't want to do.
 * Now looking over what you have there again, "Farmers and exploits take the fun and the fantasy out of the game for others." We know what farmers do. They willingly repeat something they've mastered and in order to get whatever it may be. Now the next part "It takes away the experience." This tells me that you feel in order for someone to get something they want they should do something they may or may not want to master and do that repeatedly whether they are willing to do so or not. And if they're not willing to then they are just sol on getting that item/weapon/etc.  Is it just me or can anyone else smell hypocrisy?
 * I'm not for destroying farming, but I'm also not for forcing people to farm some ridiculous amount to obtain what they'd like. Which is why I do like what has been done with the pve skill titles and campaign books.~>Sins  WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 10:06, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem is not mainly with farming. It's against the teamwork. Back in the old days, Barrage/pet was a good way to do tombs. Well... not all people liked it, but it was team-based, fast and fun. Now when you go to tombs, you only see a few solo A/E-s or A/Me-s who solo the first level only for ectos. And when people go soloing, the greatest aspect of an Online Multiplayer game goes off, and without it, the game goes dead. So this is why you should really stop letting theese assassins ruin tombs. Of course the reward needs some rework:
 * Remove drops from the darkness, move them into a chest that appears when they are killed. And the timer starts only when all people have opened the chests (similar to the method you used everywhere in this game except prophecies...)
 * Add some shiny/ghostly new rewards: like a guaranteed ecto from the new chest. Other rewards can be used
 * Then Remove Shadow form farming from the first level: several methods can be used:
 * environment effect: Enchantments cast on the first level have their durations reduced by 10%.
 * Fingers of Chaos rework: Now hits paragons, dervishes, assassins (possibly an enchant removal or guaranteed hit against them), ritualists (banishing strike effect yeaahh).
 * Theese what I suggest. Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 17:32, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "The problem is not mainly with farming. It's against the teamwork." That is a beautiful point to make. Simply put though that discriminates against people who can't dedicate as much time as others and aren't as well connected as others.  Not to mention that there are people who like to play the game with fewer people or even none.  It's a tough thing for ANet to appease everyone. By the way Boro, I feel like you are nostalgic about tombs more than anything so you might want to make a section to push a change to it. ~>Sins  WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 18:11, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The reason I have not answered this yet is because it is not an easy question to answer. When I get a little time to work on the wiki, I tend to try and address as many quick things as I can before taking on the bigger issues. This is a complicated issue to comment on and requires a thoughtful answer which is why I had put it off in favor of some of the easier questions to answer.
 * I don't really want to get into the details of skill balance in Guild Wars, but I do think that at a certain point in a games life cycle it becomes ok to let some of the more degenerate forms of play go a little bit because people are having fun participating in them. (Is Tombs really "destroyed" if there are lots of people still spending time there?) That doesn't necessarily mean that we condone all the degenerate builds out there and won't ever address them but it does mean that we may be a less likely to crack down as hard as we have in the past. 201 is right that I don't have time to pay super close attention to every farm build out there and be on the look out for every new farm that pops up in addition to designing and building new content for release. That doesn't mean that we don't keep an eye on things, but our response time is a little slower because of it.
 * Our economy is based on player demand, so once a item has been over farmed because of it's perceived value and that value drops from over farming, it can be difficult to go back to when it was in higher demand. Nerfing skills and making farming builds obsolete takes fun away from the players who were enjoying using those skills. At this point in Guild Wars life, I'm not sure how much it actually buys us to be taking fun away when the odds of us truly returning value to valueless items are pretty slim. Do you see what I mean? The amount of time it takes me to do the research, build options for nerfs, implement the nerfs, test the nerfs, release them and monitor the community's reaction it probably better spent on either trying to fix areas which aren't fun anymore because of bad rewards/bugs/griefers/bots/etc or building brand new content which will be fresh and exciting for everyone and hopefully spread the farmers out a little thinner. See, I've got this awesome programmer who can do so many things which could be so awesome for the game if only I could take the time to detail out exactly what it should do and if I am spending all kinds of time stomping out fun farms instead then those awesome things won't happen. If Live Team had another designer we could do more, but what you've got is me. Take it or leave it.
 * Boro, I have over 4k playing hours on Guild Wars Live. I go through big hardcore spurts of playing Guild Wars all the time, but since I spend 8-12 hours a day on average working on it, I also go through spurts of not playing Live at all. Right now I am in one of those places where I don't play GW much because I am working so hard on it. In fact, I don't play much of anything because I am working so hard. If I'm not working, I'm usually thinking about work or sleeping. Oh or dragging my poor friends into talking about work outside work and trying to convince them to do stuff for GW1 during off-work hours. Well... I have been playing some German board games since I don't have to be sitting at a computer to do it and I get to socialize a little with my honey and good RL friends. But I do still spend a lot of time on Guild Wars Dev, I certainly am thinking about Guild Wars most of my waking minutes and last year I went through a big spurt of activity so that I could level up the remaining 8 professions that I didn't have level 20's of, played through a lot of the game and was doing a lot of PvP as well. Once I had finished my 20's and was on to more PvP, work picked up a lot more and my activity faded because of it. Everyone goes through inactive points, so it's not very fair for you to hold mine against me so harshly. Especially since they are primarily caused by my total love for the game taking me away from playing the fun stuff so that I can work my ass off to do my small part in making it more fun for the masses (that's you btw). Oh, and I always play through the content I design. Before and after release. :D [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 19:07, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I am curious about your particular view on farming for guild wars specifically and in general. Personally, I'm for a higher supply of in game items. I would imagine if you or those representing guild wars were not you could set some kind of cap on item drops or come up with something.  But anyways yeah bcs there are contests and such that enter new skins into the game, it doesn't bother me that values drop.~>Sins  WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 20:01, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * To answer your answer to me, dear SWDB, let me try to explain: I don't care about the price of items. They can be 1000k, 100k or 1k for all I care. What I do care about, is the heaps of nearperfect items that you can only sell to the merchant, because people don't even want them for free. Farming has destroyed all demand to the point where people don't even want most things for free anymore. That's the kind of worthlessnes I am talking about.
 * As for taking away the experience, you misunderstood me. I find it very much fun to complete a campaign and get the following message: "...and so the heroes, who's powers are legendary, saved the world from the boss who get's SFfarmed 8 times an hour by bots." How doesn't that lessen the experience? It's nice you bought a spear for your guildie, but let's face it, if you couldn't farm 50k an hour, would you have done it? (Of course you'd have: it's one of the few things you have left to spend your money on; with most other items people will pay you for clearing an inventory space). 145.94.74.23 08:16, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Last time I checked, you can't solo Hell's Precipice (without great difficulty); Shiro has always been loleasy; ANet fixed Abaddon so you can't solo him either; and The Great Burning Chicken was never a challenge either, even before people figured out how to 55 him. By the way, no one wants near-perfect items because they're not perfect...did you ever consider that? :\ Free stuff is all fine and good, but if I'm just going to merch it anyway there is not much point. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 12:09, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Spawning power lovein
Can spawning power please get a buff... i think as it is right now its the most underpowered primary attribute in the game. Are there any plans to change this is this even the right place to post something like this? i am assuming it is seeing as your the only person working on gw from a design perspective. anywhoo spawning power dosnt need to be over powered it just needs to be to par with the rest of the professions so people want to start playing rits again.75.172.46.207 11:56, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * binding rituals get nothing useful from it, it's better to go N/Rt. they also cast to way slow for Pve...
 * item spells make having an off hand that has a +12 enrgey mod useless and any other mods on weapons you have useless.
 * simply put there really isn't any reason why you shouldn't go another primary and just forget about spawning power.
 * you're kidding, right? - FireFox [[Image:User_FireFox_av.png]] 12:08, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess his primary is main and he releases it after 3/4year that it wasn't the best think to take as main. Since people play n/rt in pve. 62.133.217.40 12:55, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * im still here don't have to act like i am not and no i am not kidding have you played a rit lately? also i know how bad rit spike was before but rits have been beaten severely with the nerff stick imo. 75.172.46.20713:41, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Spawning Power is commonly recognized to be a bad attribute, but then again I love cross-profession gimmicks like Necrits. -- -Ch  ao  s-   14:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well I don't know if Linsey's page is the right place to start that discussion but several people made their own page on how they would improve some profession. I know three pages about Ritualist skills and Spawning power improvments (Lancy/Falconeye, Yullive..and mine^^) and I saw some pages about Smiting prayers and so on. For sure Live Team has already tons of things to do including content updates, skill balancing ... but maybe we should make a page somewhere (Skill feddback should be the right place but it's kind of messy) to add links to user pages dealing with skill ideas. Linsey or anyone at Anet could read it and maybe feel inspired by some ideas they never had ^_~.Cornflakeboy 15:19, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * These people hardly have time to see through their own usertalk, let alone surf around for suggestions mostly written by ignorant persons anyways. -- -Ch  ao  s-   15:25, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's a better point: Is Spawning useful or any OTHER secondaries besides Nec? Other than monk, Probably not b/c all the other secondaries would require some kind of martial-weapon synergy which makes about as much sense as rolling an INSP Mesmer to go /Warrior.  Ironically enough though, a Nec/Warrior OTH can be fairly effective by comparison.  To put it simply, Spawning wouldn't be O^P if it let the Rt "Tank" a little since it's not going to let them Spike... just like how Divine&Myst helps Monk&Dervs survive much better but doesn't contribute much to their damage. -- ilr  20:20, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "binding rituals get nothing useful from it" They get higher health and are thus harder to kill/last longer.
 * "item spells make having an off hand that has a +12 enrgey mod useless and any other mods on weapons you have useless." There's this button called "Drop Item". Use it.
 * Spawning Power is fairly weak, and doesn't even have great skills like Strength does to compensate. However, it's not so bad that people don't run primary Ritualists by choice for some things. (When was the last time you saw an N/Rt flag runner?) Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 17:37, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Item spell are good, the main problem is in Spawning/Communing. Rits are flexible class, but nowdays they use mostly channeling and restoration attributes to combine defense and offense. Spawning power is bound to spirits mostly (bonus to weapon spells is pretty low), but many spirits, especially in communing line, are useless, because they are weak against interrupts, fast dying, high costing. --Kigamo 20:44, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "They get higher health and are thus harder to kill/last longer." And yet, even with 16 communing + 16 spawning, (lol, 2 superiors in pve) most spirits outside a select few only last what seems to be mere moments before vanishing from the battlefield. --68.32.187.152 00:07, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * @ Vili you clearly don't play rit. like others have said spirits just die super fast. and are all together not worth it. by the time your done casting a sprit most of the time everything around you is already dead via henchmen/heros or other players, or its insta killed by some one with a syth or any kind of damage. as for dropping items there are a lot of rit skills that work better if you are holding an item, also some items you want to hold for a longer time. and i am clearly not the only person who feels this way about spawning power. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10359038&page=3 http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10277282 http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10163287 that last link dosnt talk about a buff but more about how useful spawning power is. @62.133.217.40 you clearly haven't play this game that long factions came out in 2006, a year after guild wars ph. so there is no way i could have a rit that is 4 years old. Also back then rits were much more powerful, Rit spike used to dominate the meta. and like what was proven yesterday they keep getting beaten by the nerff stick, both the nerffs yesterday were not needed, what was and is still needed is the removal of Heroes from pvp because of the tease bot is just to power full and can play the bar far better then a human can. 75.172.46.207 12:15, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I play every class in the game and therefore I'm not going to bother reading your response. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 12:32, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * oh man that makes you soooo smart. i also play every class in the game there for i am better then you OH wait that isnt a reason to be better then someone. i would also like to point out on your very own user page you say "goal find a build that makes use of spawning power."75.172.46.207 12:36, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If you're going to accuse someone of not playing a class without doing some research first, I think that makes you pretty smart too. And in fact, if someone has experience in an area of the game that you don't because you've never played it before, that does indeed make them better than you when it comes to that aspect. Quite a concept, isn't it? I would also like to point out that 95% of the stuff on my userpage/character pages is sarcastic, although that should have been blatantly obvious. I would be quite worried if you thought I actually had something against Jewish people, for instance.
 * In any case, as this seems to be devolving into yet another personal vendetta, I'd suggest moving any further conversation to my userpage, as this clearly has nothing to do with Linsey anymore. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 12:59, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Look, all, exept of Spawning, primary attributes are bound to a wide game aspects. Divine Favor triggers with every spell, targeting an ally, Expertise affects all nonspell skills, Soul Reaping gives you energy, no matter what build you are running, Enegry storage also gives you energy to play any build you like, Strenght allows you to use any matrial weapon, you may take scythe, spear, bow, daggers, etc, but you will still have Strenght's effect, Fast Casting is a super flexible primary attribute, that all spells and signets are happy to use, Critical Strikes helps you to maintain energy, with any physical weapon, Mysticism helps with energy, it works with any enchantments in play, Leadership gives you energy for any shout... but I think it is another underpowered primary attribute, because it works bad in 4vs4. What about Spawning Power? It triggers summoned creatures, it triggers weapon spells. It triggers rit's spirits, it triggers minions. The only spirits that need additional hp are in communing line, but it is not helps them (they are still dying in a second). Minions, in most cases, dont need more hp, because necros can summon hordes of them, then cast some death nova, blow all foes up, summon another horde from corpses (Aura of the Lich, and necros can effectivly heal their minions). Weapon Spells last 2% longer for each rank? Better to play N/Rt and have unlimited energy. So, the Spawning Power has a low radius of application. It's the same that if ranger's primary atribute would decrease the cost of bow attack's only. Sorry for my english. --Kigamo 19:40, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Neither Divine Favor nor Expertise are as universal as you claim. - Tanetris 19:49, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * So? :) Maybe, but Spawning Power is less universal than others. --Kigamo 19:59, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * no Vili you are clearly trolling. also if you played your rit more then just to lvl 20. then you would see how fail spirits and spawning power really is. also i don't care what characters you do or don't play. nor am i going to take the time to read all of your stupid user pages or anyone's for that matter. my point still stands spawning power is week and needs a buff to make it worth using.75.165.120.89 23:57, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No, IP, you are clearly ignorant. With my Ritualist, I've finished Prophecies, Factions, and EotN, with Protector for the first two. I did every quest in the Prophecies campaign, and every quest in Factions except for a few out-of-the-way ones in the Kaineng City. I did Charting the Jade Sea and Charting the Forests. I did The Deep. I capped every Ritualist elite. I could finish Nightfall as well, if I had the time; that one just takes longer. I used H/H for all of this. I don't use cons or overpowered PvE skills.
 * I have every Ritualist skill in the game, and suitable equipment, and suitable Heroes. I've tinkered with Channeling, Communing, and Restoration. Because I'm too cheap to buy skills in the secondary profession, all of the builds I've ever used have been Ritualist-only. Which included using Spawning Power. In fact, my headgear is Spawning Power +2 because I can't be arsed to make separate ones for each attribute, and I use it in everything.
 * So I've been all over PvE and worked with dozens of builds using any of the Ritualist attributes. I haven't had any problems on my Ritualist. I can use Spirits and Spawning Power if I want to; they're fail if you suck at the game and can't be bothered to position them properly, or you're trying to make a universal build and whining when it doesn't work in an unfavorable situation. I can go Channeling and create enormous AoE damage thanks to Splinter Weapon, ARAge, and Spirit Rift; meanwhile, Bloodsong and Vampirism pressure a single target, and if melee should approach me I can punish them with Destruction and Rupture Soul. I can go Communing and overwhelm the enemy with attack spirits, keep a dangerous boss knocklocked with Wanderlust, give Protective Spirit + Aegis + Guardian + Shielding Hands to every ally in the area, and/or raise the entire party's max health by 150. I can go Restoration and dump out massive heals, whether it is to a single target or to counter pressure on the whole party/all allies in the area. I can render allies completely immune to all forms of degen, or clean off three conditions for 5 energy every three seconds (not to mention healing for ~Patient Spirit), or remove four conditions from all allies in earshot... so, despite the failure of Spawning Power and Spirits, Ritualists have no problems in PvE.
 * PvP is a different matter. A lot of the formats are unfavorable to a Ritualist because they require constant movement, so many spirits become unusable. It also doesn't make a difference if they have some more health, since people will either ignore them completely or kill them instantly. A lot/most of the primary Ritualist builds for PvP don't even spec into Spawning Power at all; they take Ritualist primary due to higher energy max/regen and being able to get higher attributes, as well as some better insignia. Only build I can think of that uses Spawning Power is gimmick PBAoE spike builds that take Destruction, Draw Spirit, Rupture Soul, and some of the ashes from Channeling.
 * I never claimed that Spawning Power is a good attribute; I know it's bad. Spawning Power is probably the worst of all the primary attributes, with Mysticism coming in close behind. It doesn't have wonderful skills in it like Strength does. It doesn't provide energy management like Expertise. It's a passive attribute like Critical Strikes or Leadership, but the passive effect is not that useful. Most primary attributes provide energy management or the skills to do so; Spawning Power has one which is elite and gimmicky, and a few others that are conditional and not very suitable for PvP anyway. It's really quite surprising how Ritualists manage to get by with it being so bad, and the answer to that is that they have some of the most powerful skills in the game. (People don't run N/Mo or E/Mo; they run N/Rt.) So despite having a sucky primary attribute, Ritualists are fine in PvE, and they work for some areas of PvP. If Spawning Power was buffed, probably it would require some of their skills to be nerfed, or at least tweaked in such a way that without Spawning Power they become less useful. (For example, if Spawning Power gave +1 armor for every rank while holding an ashes, they could remove the armor boost from PwK.) Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 02:59, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Just wanted to add this into the conversation in case it hasn't been mentioned yet: Many melee classes can mindlessly spam "Save Yourselves!" and yet, when Ritualists try to do something similar (AoE prot) using several skills that require not only proper skill chaining but also proper placement, it's nowhere near as effective. Does anyone see the flaw in this line of thinking? --68.32.187.152 00:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, SY! just like most of the PvE skills is overpowered and imbalanced. Compared to every other protective skill in the game, it leaves them in the dust. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 02:59, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * @Vili I am ignorant OH MAN i guess i need to remind you."I play every class in the game and therefore I'm not going to bother reading your response." yep im sooo ignorant also am i suppose to be impressed by how you play or how much you have played because i am not. because i have done everything and much more then that in hard mode and normal mode on my rit. with the exception of that i used pve skills when appropriate because other people are bad, and i want to have the best skill bar i can have to compensate, and because i plan on getting said titles on other toons beside my rit, and dont feel like doing that much grind (and dont have the time) or to make the game that much more difficult when it dost have to be. now as for "save yourselves" that is a completely different topic and something that has nothing to do with spawning power, or a buff to it, and i ask that if you want to talk about how oped or non oped "save yourself" is or isnt please take that discussion elsewhere... also Vili i find it funny that now you agree with me that spawning power needs a buff, because now your not only a troll you are a ignorant hypocrite, and i find no reason to continue to respond to you and i almost didn't write this response because your own words speak much higher volumes about you then i ever could. and Linsey i am sorry this topic as been so Derailed by trolls and i hope that you can see past that. and respond to my original post.75.165.120.89 20:28, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It was your choice to derail the conversation by using a straw-man argument about my in-game experience with Ritualists. I chose to educate you on that matter. If you blame me for responding appropriately to an insult, then I can only assume you have some sort of grudge against me and wouldn't listen to anything I say anyway. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 20:59, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * But, I'm feeling generous today, so I'll respond to you anyway. You're ignorant for assuming that just because someone doesn't exactly agree with you on a subject in your exact words, they haven't played the game properly or can't match your hours. (Hours spent in-game or player age do not translate to being a good player, anyway - I've met people who have played for a thousand hours more than me, since the days of Prophecies beta, and they still think Orison of Healing is a good skill. 'Nuff said.) Maybe you are not as good a player as you thought?
 * Guru threads (which you linked somewhere above) and other links which show many people thinking the same thing don't much matter, either, unless they are populated with people whose opinions actually matter. The number of people who agree with a particular statement doesn't make one bit of difference, and certainly says nothing about the truth of it if those people are inexperienced. Did you know that after they nerfed Soul Reaping, there were hundreds of posts by Ritualist primaries who were complaining about the nerfs, even though it did not affect them in any way and in fact made them a more viable option? People are in general quite dumb, and while they are all free to have an opinion, if they are dead wrong they shouldn't be listened to. There are still many people who think Paragons, Dervishes oh wait they haven't nerfed Wounding Strike, Ritualists, and Assassins get nerfed too much and now they are just weak classes that require buffs to be playable again. These people have no clue what they are talking about, as they don't realize that unstrippable buffs with no counters/instagib chains are by their very nature imbalanced, and thus have to be made weak to compensate, or completely reworked. See the recent nerf to Weapon of Warding for PvP. That's about what the skill ought to have been from the very start.
 * I haven't tried to impress you in any way. Rather I have illustrated what I've done in response to your original dismissals, "Vili you clearly don't play rit", because that is a patent falsehood and a straw-man/ad-hominem attack which has nothing to do with the validity of my argument(s). I've played Ritualist more than enough to know what I'm talking about, and so have you (if I'm to believe your claims, which would be a leap of faith considering how readily you are willing to dismiss mine; but I will assume good faith today), and therefore choosing to dismiss each other based on that is willful ignorance.
 * I also take great pride in my knowledge of Guild Wars; many people only ever main one or two classes, but I have played all of them fairly extensively, in PvE and (some) PvP. So I get extremely offended to anyone who chooses to dismiss me as not knowledgeable of the subject, unless it is something I truly know very little about, such as GvG or HA. No, I don't expect you to read my userpages or anything like that. You don't care about them; hell, I don't care about them, much less expect people to read them. But unlike you, I assume that someone knows that they are talking about until proven otherwise. I don't need to see proof of their in-game accomplishments or how long they have played; I can tell just by what they write if they know what the fuck they're talking about or not. If someone has done nothing but Monk for three years, I'll believe them...but as soon as they tell me that Mend Condition is better than Dismiss Condition because the heal is unconditional, they have lost all credibility with me.
 * I have never disagreed with you, and I am still puzzled as to why you are confused on this point. Read what I have written more closely...
 * "binding rituals get nothing useful from it" They get higher health and are thus harder to kill/last longer.
 * This is a fact that cannot be denied. It doesn't matter how useful it actually is in practice (answer is: not much). You can call me a dick for bitching about technicalities like this, and I'll accept that. But if you say "binding rituals are unaffected by spawning power", that's just a false statement, and it's in my nature to point our errors like that. Now, if you were being sarcastic and really meant something more like "Spawning Power gives binding rituals more health, but because they die so fast anyway it doesn't really matter", then saying that instead would have saved all this trouble in the first place. Sarcasm doesn't work on the internets and I'm bad at picking it up, anyway.
 * "item spells make having an off hand that has a +12 enrgey mod useless and any other mods on weapons you have useless." There's this button called "Drop Item". Use it.
 * This is an issue of lern2play. People complained about the armor nerf to PwK because "I get killed now". Well, aside from the fact that no one used it for the armor, it was pointed out to these people again and again that they weren't playing properly... there are almost no item spells which you ought to be holding for their full duration (Attuned was Songkai being the notable exception), and if you do, it's to pull off a double-drop effect usually. If you're under pressure, you drop them. If you suddenly need high energy, you drop them. And so on...that's what a skilled player does. It is assumed that you understand the tradeoffs you're making by sacrificing your weapon when using item spells... Basically, every item spell in the game lowers your armor/energy and makes enchantments last 20% shorter. That's a big penalty, and it's not ANet's/skill balancer's fault that people couldn't understand this. Shard's Skill of the Day for Might was Vorizun illustrated this... "While you maintain this, you gain +15 armor, but lose +13 armor because you no longer have your weapon sets. In essence, this skill does nothing other than wasting your time." Now, I'm not saying that you are an unskilled player, but rather that in actuality the penalty is much less than it's made out to be; it's just fine for an unstrippable, unstoppable buff/damage/whatever.
 * Spawning Power is fairly weak, and doesn't even have great skills like Strength does to compensate. However, it's not so bad that people don't run primary Ritualists by choice for some things. (When was the last time you saw an N/Rt flag runner?)
 * There. You see? I agreed with you right from the start that Spawning Power is mediocre. Yet you chose to completely ignore that and call me inexperienced. I then tried to counter this baseless and ignorant accusation, and you decided it was just me trying to show off my e-peen and "impress" you. In fact, you now think that I'm a troll and an ignorant hypocrite. Which I find quite sad, since we actually agree on the topic, and it would have been so much more constructive and useful to Linsey if we didn't get sidetracked by lies and misinformation. Still, you don't see me calling you names. To quote you, "your own words speak much higher volumes about you then i ever could". That is all. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 21:52, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

"Save Yourselves!" is NOT spammable, even with Primal Rage and "For Great Justice!" going at the same time, there is still enough of a gap between uses for people to get spiked, or die. Six seconds (tops) is quite a long time to gain 8 adrenalin. Keep in mind, a well placed HM spike from an enemy mob can still kill someone under "Save Yourselves!" but could very-well fail (and often does) against someone under a prot or two. A N/Rt is a key part of my team build, and is often the source of salvation, running all Ritualist skills minus Signet of Lost Souls and some investment into Soul Reaping for energy management, and has saved many a people with a well timed cast, or svaed the team preventing a key member from dying, holding the party together and saving us from a wipe. Bottom line: NO, Ritualists ARE NOT useless. Adding on to that, Soul Reaping isn't the best of primary attributes however. &mdash; Jon    Lupen  22:16, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I hope you meant Focused Anger instead of Primal Rage. :( Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 22:35, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Its blatantly Clear that We BOTH assumed and that made an ass out of both of us. My straw-man argument was a result of your statement about holding item spells:" There's this button called "Drop Item". Use it." (that statement led me to believe [ie assume] that you had never played a rit because of the skills, Attuned was Songkai and probably Destructive Was Glaive But you drop it every time you recast and should be dropped in the situations you already stated) and yes I admit that spawning power increases the heath of sperits but ITS NOT USEFULL because they instantly die either from fire or from some one hitting them with a scythe. And I would go as far to say that on the subject to item spells a lot of them are underpowered because of how grate the draw back is.


 * Also no where did i say anything in the regards to "can't match your hours. (Hours spent in-game or player age do not translate to being a good player, anyway - I've met people who have played for a thousand hours more than me, since the days of Prophecies beta, and they still think Orison of Healing is a good skill. 'Nuff said.) Maybe you are not as good a player as you thought?" I find it funny that everyone just assumes that everyone else thinks that they are super pro at the game. I for one don’t think I am in any shape or from pro or even good at this game I have played it a lot (including playing every class just like you) and I think there are a lot of things I can learn to do better but I will never claim that I am pro or better then someone else. (I guess you could have gotten that from my reply to your statement about items that I already addressed above) also I never lied about any thing.


 * as for the Derail comment i was talking a little about the bickering that has gone on back and forth that happened not only between you and me but others, and also and mainly the subject of watchyour selfs which is a completely different topic.-that was what i was mainly talking about. also i did know that they nerffed soul reaping, and i never complained because it was clearly broken and i do agree that unstripable buffs need some sort of counter or weakness but preferably a counter. also WoW wasn’t that oped people just needed to bring anti blocking skills/they need a buff ie Warrior's Cunning. the only other problem with wow and shadow weapon is that in pvp right now people are bringing Tease bots (Gwen Norgu) that can preprot a called target before a spike goes though and can just play better then a normal person/ a really good person can. When your facing that doesn’t matter how good your spike is gwen can weapon of warding that stuff. I understand that the nerff to weapon of warding came because of people spamming it on the guild lord but people dont seem to understand that warriors have lots of skills that are unblock able. as for Wounding strike i don’t think it will ever get nerffed because if it did pvp dervishes would cease to exists unless they buffed all the other non form elites.


 * Any how the bottom line and thing that both of us can learn from this is ASSUMEING really dose make "an ass out of you and me" 75.165.120.89 23:35, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah. We both look kind of foolish in retrospect. I apologize. Although one thing for Warriors is that on most of the typical bars, there isn't room for unblockable skills like Soldier's Strike (which is conditional) or whatever - you have to drop a key skill in exchange, and you never know necessarily if you'll be facing blocking anyway. Consider Shock Axe for instance... you have Evis, Executioner's, res signet, Bull's, Shock, Frenzy, Rush. That only leaves room for one more skill slot. You can't really afford to spec into tactics, Warrior's Cunning is....long recharge...Swift Chop doesn't deal much damage, Griffon's/Leviathan's Sweep are kinda meh, Wild Blow you'd lose all adrenaline. The other unblockable skills, Whirling Axe and Magehunter Strike (conditional), are elites so you'd have to make a whole different bar around them. And Whirling Axe has issues since you need to gain adrenaline to use it, which you can't do when being blocked... :\ Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 00:03, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * @Vili:I don't use Focused Anger on my Warrior as increased movement and attack speed does more for you over-all (and coming from the same skill, and being an elite) than some extra adrenaline does from a fourth attribute that I can't spec into as a warrior. Primal Rage > Focused Anger. My Paragon doens't use "Save Yourself!" as there are generaly more all around useful skills to fill the elite instead of Focused Anger and shouts I'd prefer over "Save Yourself!" and the time needed to invest to get the duration up to a bit more reasonable length. Also, my Paragon doesn't run on adrenaline skills. "For Great Justice!" also isn't on my Warrior's bar as the 33% faster attack rate from Primal Rage does a fine job of charging my adrenaline, and there are other skills I needed room to fit on my bar. Also, "Save Yourselves!" often isn't on my bar as there are more useful skills than giving the party 100 extra armor for five (or so) seconds every 15 or so. I leave that area to prots, which do a MUCH better job. &mdash; Jon  [[Image:User_Jon_Lupen_Sig_Image.png|18px]]  Lupen  23:42, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, you're using SY! on the Warrior, I didn't understand that. Well, when you are playing as a Paragon, it is indeed maintainable if not spammable. You can use it with Focused Anger or Soldier's Fury. Although it does take a little bit of time investment, maybe like R5-R6 before it becomes worthwhile. But even for a casual player that's quite doable.
 * Although still, I'm wondering of Primal Rage, because it's kind of suicidal in PvE, let alone Hard Mode...especially after the nerf. IMS aren't that useful for PvE and Flail has almost no drawback. Also, while prots are good, only Aegis covers the whole party. It can't be maintained without taking a second copy, and it can be stripped. That's perhaps the strongest part of SY!, is that it's rare to face shout counters and it can't be removed. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 00:03, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I see where your comming from. Some good prots (Protective Spirit + Spirit Bond) actualy kept me healed more than it hurt me. Most of the time, the heat would be around various members of my party, so the little bit of extra damage was manageable. Considering our N/Rt support on top of two monks, our heals held out fine so I could get away with Primal Rage until I started to take most of the heat, then I would cancel it with Rush. I haven't been on my warrior as of late, so I'm going to have to figure out what to do about the recent Primal Rage nerf when I get there. When I do run "Save Yourselves!" on my Warrior, it's not about maintaining it, it's about spot use. I'll be keeping an eye on party health, and as soon as we start to take too much damage party wide, I'll hit it, giving the monks enough time to recover. Also, prots don't need to go party wide for the most part, as the monks will give a prot or two to a person under heat, and then move to the next. Heals + prots + N/Rt healer often keep the party as a whole in good shape to the point where party-wide buffs/shouts are rarely needed. Proper engagement and target order also helps with bringing down the right people fast enough to keep the over-all party damage down to a reasonable level to where said shouts/buffs aren't needed. &mdash; Jon  [[Image:User_Jon_Lupen_Sig_Image.png|18px]]  Lupen  00:25, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The usual godmode build I see for Warriors is to combine Enduring Harmony, FGJ, Dragon Slash and at least one other skills for quickly gaining a big chunk of Adrenaline (Enraging Charge being the most popular). Using that, it's fairly simple to spam SY! for 30 seconds out of every 45 simply by exchanging Dslash and SY!, and with the other adrenaline-gain skills it's possible to keep SY! up during the 'downtime'. Draxynnic 01:05, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Sweet Jesus, people. Are you guys really expecting me to read all this and respond intelligently before the April build? Please say no. - Linsey talk 01:54, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like we conjured up quite the wall of text there. I'm sure you can get the general idea for the most part somehwhat early in, as some of it is back-and-forth between a few users, considering I'm a tad guilty of that too. XD &mdash; Jon  [[Image:User_Jon_Lupen_Sig_Image.png|18px]]  Lupen  02:03, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry Linsey. About 75% of this could be moved to the relevant user talk pages. It's not tangential to the topic necessarily, but not directed at you either. I'll try to ramble less in the future and remember that this isn't just any old talk page. :( Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 03:25, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh thanks. I'm trying to keep up with my wiki and I'm really strict with myself about reading all of a discussion before responding (usually reading it a couple times by the time I respond), but man I do not look forward to reading this lol. You won't mind if I don't read it, do you? I'll just keep in mind that spawning power might like to get looked at. - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 03:41, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That was the basic idea, yeah...seemed like Spawning Power "fell through the cracks" so to speak, so if ANet might consider reevaluating it that would be nice :) Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 03:44, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok cool. You guys are hella distracting me from work. I can't help it! I'm looking stuff up on the wiki and that damn orange bar glares at me!! - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 03:47, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Please don't take this the wrong way but "fell through the cracks" is putting it too lightly I'd say. How long have we have N/Rt's outshine Rt/'s? The only benefit to playing a primary ritualist now seems to be hitting 15 channeling for Splinter, being able to run Spirit's Strength builds and flag running. Anything else and you'd might as well run N/Rt or E/Rt. --68.32.187.152 05:19, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Here's the rundown for you: I think that sums it up. -- Alaris 14:27, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Spawning power needs a buff because (1) the primary is pretty useless to anything but Rt, and (2) it's pretty useless to Rts as well.
 * Rit spike needed a nerf, but nerf went too far.
 * N/Rt is the main way Rt skills are used (N/Rt healing). I'd also add Rt/N as a variant for minions.
 * See also pages by Lancy/Falconeye, Yullive..and Cornflakeboy^^ for suggestions
 * Perhaps better survival would be good (see monk & derv primaries).
 * Spirits, especially communing, are too costly in time & energy to be worthwhile. Perhaps faster summon speed? They also don't last long enough to be worth it.
 * Some back & forth ranting which is better ignored.
 * Spawning primary is less universal than many other primaries.
 * Spawning needs something to make it more useful for PvP, where movement is key.
 * Some comments about "Save Yourselves" being OP'ed.
 * Some say that even though Spawning may be a weak primary, the Rt is quite viable especially for PvE.
 * Item spells involve a trade-off, and good players use that well. So it's ok for you to lose your weapon bonuses when you hold an item.
 * Long discussion of warrior and paragon skills, mostly with regards to block and party-wide support mechanics - compared to spammable prot weapon spells.
 * Linsey complaining about wall of text.
 * The skills need to be looked at too, right now spawning power has about 1 or 2 useable skills outside of gimmicks like Spirits Strength.24.46.41.245 18:36, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 100 times agree with ^ and above. --Kigamo 18:41, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 100% agreed. Someone made a game design mistake at that time and it needs to be remedied. Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 20:06, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * My primary character in PvE is a Rit and 99% of the time I just put the few points I have left in spawning power which shows us that it's quite useless, with a monk you really try to balance healing/prot/divine to get the most benefit, however, I don't agree with you totally. Spirits in PvE is quite useful if you abuse the enemy AI and make some smart moves. Something you might want to take a look at though is that the AI seems to prioratise to kill the spirit Pain before everything it feels like. If one of your spirit dies it's prob Pain. But Rits are lacking in PvE, not too many builds to chose from and they are not relyable healers nor nukers as they lay in the shadow of N/Rt's, Monks & Elementalists. Shmutt 20:47, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Good summary, Alaris. One clarification I'd make is that the Save Yourselves! comparison is typically made with respect to the old Ritlord build rather than weapon spells - a lot of Rit players feel that if SY! is acceptable in PvE, than the old Ritlord build should also be returned to something close to its original functionality in PvE. It's certainly true that Rits function well despite the lackluster shape of Spawning Power - in fact, I think some buffs that have been made to individual skills seem to have been made to compensate for the lackluster effect of the primary attribute (healing spells especially, when compared to Monks who have Divine Favour). The problem is that this just provides more encouragement to dump Spawning Power entirely as it is largely unimportant to a Ritualist's effectiveness, possibly replacing it with a more applicable primary such as Soul Reaping. Draxynnic 01:05, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Shadow Form.
I don't know how much time was it taken to you but the problem still persists:

in short:
 * Shadow Form ruins PvE
 * Shadow Form causes problems both in Fow/UW and in tombs
 * The reason why shadow form is overpowered is because it's maintainable.
 * A good solution for this problem is to make it not maintainable
 * there are good places to look for ideas how to make it viable-but-not-OP in other ways.

explanation:

Shadow Form still ruins PvE. It renders you invincible to 99% of the damage sources, and it still dominates high-end PvE. This skill alone made Tomb Ruins a ghost-town, this skill lets assassins to outclass warriors in terms of tanking, and while a warrior needs both his spells and a bonder to stay alive, an assassin can hold out on her own. I know that you don't wish to stomp every single farming builds in existence, but this is different.

Before it's buff to be permamently maintainable, it was useful for farming greens, so that's a good way to begin nerfing this skill, but if you want to make it a solid defense skill for assassins, check out this one. If you want to make it useful for other roles you can add a speed boost or a blocking effect for it. I also made a better idea than the one in the official suggestion pages here.

The only reason I want to see Shadow Form nerfed is because it effectively removed team play from UW, where it is more powerful than URSAN was.

I can give you some screenshots if you need some evidence. Boro 14:32, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Game designers don't dare to make a challenging PvE in games anymore. -- -Ch  ao  s-   15:36, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It's all or nothing: Godmode for all professions, or godmode for none of them. I'd choose the latter. But nevertheless they should clean up the sh*t they done before. Farming is not bad. but when farming is more effective than team play... then things go hell... Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 16:00, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Farming by it's nature has always been a solo activity, it has nothing to do with SF. Before SF, there were 55 monks who could solo farm most areas, or 600/smite 2 man teams that could farm everything else. --[[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png | Wyn's Talk page]] Wyn 16:54, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Before SF, nothing could come close to clearing UW in 15 minutes. It's a problem in team play as well as solo play - maintainable invincibility is a bad mechanic. - Auron 17:05, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Another thing: the 2008/12/11 update did one thing: reduced the viable character variations for UWSC characters. Now only f--- sins can farm UW.
 * remember?
 * : recharge reduced to 45 seconds, duration reduced to 5..21 seconds.
 * Now please be honest(linsey): Do you think it is good to let a skill function as an IDDQD cheat code? Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 17:33, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * But shadowform requires your elite slot :( Lilondra  [[Image:Miniature_Panda.png|21x21px]] *panda*  17:46, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * SF is not going to get changed. Its very clear to me that Anet wants people to be able to farm these areas and make the large sums of money so people can fill their HoM for GW2. Being able to farm UW in 15mins = fow/elite armor on every character and a HoM display full of Tormented weapons. Anet used to be tough on farming, but considerning all focus has shifted to pushing GW2, they seem to be ok with the economy being easier to farm.-- *Yasmin Parvaneh* [[Image:User_yasmin_parvaneh_sig.png]] 17:52, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay so let's reinstate Ursan, because my Ranger wants to farm too. Both ways, permanent Godmode. -- Arduinna [[Image:User_Arduinna_Companionship.jpg|15px|talk]] 18:11, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * OR actually balance pve !!! I know lets choose what doesnt cost a lot of time ! *awh crap* Lilondra  [[Image:Miniature_Panda.png|21x21px]] *panda*  18:42, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

1. This doesn't belong in Linsey's section as she has said before. 2. Shadow Form does requires just as much skill and timing as a 55 monk or 600/smite team does and yet no one seems to complain about the latter. Tell you what... nerf Shadow Form and I'll bet you everyone shifts to the latter. Will this stop the decline of prices for things in GW... I don't think so. Not everyone views perma SF as a bad thing. I personally use it to fill my HoM. Who really cares about the price of ectos in the first place. If you are hoarding em, then you are playing the game for the wrong reason. Any unit of money (including ectos) is intended for three in game purposes: buying, selling, trading. If you are saving them to purchase a mini Vizu or Panda, then get to work and start farming ectos, but if you are hoarding em to be the richest player in the game, then you are playing for the wrong reason. I'm personally tired of the people who continually QQ about SF and I've found that they are usually the people who don't have the skill to use it. Get a life and complain about something that matters really... Linsey has enough stress in her life right now and deserves a medal for all the #$%@ she has to put up with dissatisfied players. Stop QQing and start thanking Linsey for all she has done like the global title update for example. That was awesome in my opinion.

Linsey, on a personal note, I am thankful for all the ingame stuff you have done. You are doing a good job trying to keep GW fresh and alive. I am personally excited to see what you have for in store for us concering the "Big April Update" whenever it comes out. Keep up the good work and ignore your detractors. Focus on the positive and keep your head above water. If you do these things, you'll find yourself less stressed. 24.176.28.246 02:05, 11 March 2009 (UTC)Jacin Nomin
 * Broken skill is broken, if you don't see it... you must be abusing it yourself for big profits. Having a skill do permanent god mode with almost no counters (seriously, even though a list of then isn't short they don't appear in most areas at all or are easily avoidable) is terribad game design. I'm not even getting into all the economy thing, the biggest problem is balance, having this 1 skill own almost everything is a serious problem. It just shouldn't be possible to maintain it indefinately, assassins shouldn't be godlike uber-tanks but should strike and run. Non-perma SF was an awesome skill with plenty of uses, it was already overpowered. Then buffing it to perma made it just ridiculous. And saying it's good because it makes you money is a horrible argument - that could be said about just any absurdly broken skill/build/exploit used for big profits, ohno don't nerf my god mode I'm using it to fill my HoM, yeaah right... --Yawg [[image:User_Yawg_Pumpkin_Crown.png|Yawg]] 06:25, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Lol Shadowform skill.You have to like watch shadowform and drop explosive material zomg Lilondra  [[Image:Miniature_Panda.png|21x21px]] *panda*  06:44, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * So MR IP (24.176.28.246)
 * 1: The current existence of this version of shadow form is both a game design flaw and a skill balance flaw in the game. In this time Linsey is the game balancer and the game designer for GW1. I understand that it's not an easy task in this time, but it's such a big flaw that it has to be remedied.
 * 2: A permament god-mode in a game based on staying alive is overpowered. 600/smite and 55/ss couldn't clear UW in 20 or even 30 mins. The fastest way to do UW was ursanway before and even THAT exceeded the 1 hour time. So by all means: Shadow form is not just overpowered it's a badly designed skill. It's worse than ursan, which we all agree was the most broken skill in guild wars history (another game design fail[when fail=big mistake]) Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 13:44, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * And as a final thrust: 600 and 55 monks are not immune to attack interrupts!!! Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 13:52, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I've asked Linsey twice about it, and the simple truth is - GW is a dying game. So if you need godmode to keep people playing, give them godmode, who cares if it's broken? That's the sum of it. I don't agree, but the fact is, the more time goes on, the less likely change is. The original decision about shadow form was BAD. But changing it now is admitting they did something wrong, and angering all the people that have come to depend on it. THat's what power creep does. It creates people who LOVE the new godmode, and would be pissed off if it stopped. So now they have no easy way out - either they piss off some people who love it, or piss off others who don't. Why? because they made a bad error in judgement. Too late now I think. Time to shut off GW1 and wait for GW2, like most of my friends already did. 189.33.79.34 14:21, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * There will always be players that do it the old fashioned way. Some farm survivor, some play it normally. Same for gold, except that to max out titles or HoM, you need to do a lot more than succeed, you need to succeed repeatedly, fast, and consistently. That is where godmode becomes an issue... do you allow it so those goals are doable even with players that are not pros, or do you remove it and hence make those goals inaccessible to most players? -- [[Image:User_Alaris_sig.JPG|Alaris_sig]] Alaris 14:37, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Shadow form is a reason why the game is dying. I will make it simple: A player plays the game untill he accomplishes everything he wants to accomplish. Godmode makes accomplishing things easier. Godmode lessens the time a player plays with the game. The other reason why people rage is that they see their accomplishments thrown into the trash bin because while they needed months to get an obsidian armor, now every second Permaformer runs with one. So are there any more of theese bad reasons why should we keep shadow form the way it is? Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 15:52, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Why should we even worry about the people who'd quit if it changed? They're not the majority, they're not even a "large" minority.  They're Failures spreading AIDs which is UNFUNNY for everyone else.  More people will quit if they DON'T leave. -- ilr  20:47, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Boro, I appreciate your viewpoint, but there are some of us who started 2.5 years into GW. Most of the people who started 4 years ago have already accomplished all the stuff there is to do in the game. I have a friend who started 4 years ago who recently stopped playing after he got his last GWAMM title for all 10 professions. That's nice. He did it the "old fashioned way". I can appreciate all the blood, sweat, and tears he put into that title, but he isn't playing anymore. I on the other hand, have maybe 2 hours a day to play the game unlike most kids who spend half their life on it. I'd like to make some forseeable progress on my titles and HoM, but the "old fashioned way" mean about 5 more years of grinding for me and then I'm what 3.5 years behind in GW2? Seriously, permaSF is there for those who don't have the time to invest in the game because they actually have a life outside the game. Is it a broken game mechanic, yes. Is 55 monking and 600/smite a broken game mechanic, yes. I don't see you complaining about those. How about the fact that you can get a run from LA to Droks a broken game mechanic, yes. If you are going to complain about one broken game mechanic, then you might as well complain about them all. The fact is that you are ticked because not everyone wants to grind titles the "old fashioned way" by the sweat of their brow. Does that make your titles and prestige any less meaningful... only if you let it. You have the knowledge that you did it the "old fashioned way" and that you were "a good enough player" to do it. Does permaSF make me any less of a player... probably not because I do some things the "old fashioned way" when I get the time (ie. Elonian Grand Master Cartographer). Does it really ruin anyones fun... only if they let it. Does it ruin the game's economy... I'd say that with less people playing and more people finishing their HoM and GWAMM titles at this point, that it was bound to happen in time anyways. You see, a lot of people are dissatisfied with GW right now for one reason or another, to point to permaSF and say that's the culprit, I'd have to say you are sadly mistaken. It has been a lot of mistakes over the years that has lead to this. I'd say it was a little more to do with Ursan than permaform. And yes, permaform isn't permanent because the enchantment can be stripped by a necro or a ranger. You just need a little skill and adjust your skill bar(oops... did I say that). Linsey has been given a dying elephant to keep alive and she's doing a darn good job with it. GW2 will probably be coming out late this year early next year or at the very latest late 2010. Have some patience... people make mistakes and I'm sure the design team for GW2 has taken all of this into account. GW was a learning exercise for them. GW2 will be a success in my book because they have learned what players want. Sorry for this great wall of text, but there it is. 24.176.28.246 17:09, 11 March 2009 (UTC)Jacin Nomin
 * Just a quick note on your wall of text - "I'd like to make some forseeable progress on my titles and HoM". Titles and HoM have no impact on the game and are not required at all to enjoy high level challenges in GW. In fact you can get max armor, weapons and a decent skill bar in 2-3 days, so don't tell me that as a casual player you "need" shadow form in any way. It is unbalanced, that's all. THe problem isn't that they are successfull - there are many ways to do underworld for instance. THe problem is their speed. It's too fast compared to other methods. Yes, 600/SS teams can do UW too, but they don't complete it in 15 mins. That's the argument. Ps: as for adjusting skill bar, we're talking about pve, so that means putting some signet/touch enchantment removal on monsters. That is 1) lots of hard work and 2) ruins the fun for lots of other people, as enchantments are one of the most effective ways to do HM pve (how would you survive boss eles without some kind of prot, for instance) 189.33.79.34 17:22, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * -Perma SF isn't only used by those who don't have the time to invest in the game because they actually have a life outside the game, but also by the kids that are farming UW 24/7.
 * -GW2 won't be released before 2011.
 * Some people play this game for fun, not because OMG I need to finish my HoM before GW2 goes live.
 * If you are going to complain about one broken game mechanic, then you might as well complain about them all. We might, but we aren't. We are discussing SF.
 * -- Arduinna [[Image:User_Arduinna_Companionship.jpg|15px|talk]] 17:32, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The title thing is another one: It doesn't mean anything if you have max drunkard or sweet tooth. Eotn, SS/LB, and allegiance might mean something but that's can be done with leeching (in the current system)(Disclaimer:I never leech, and I do GvG-s and some HA matches). Shadow form is too powerful because it's permament god-mode. Titles are another bad point why shadow form should exist in this version Do you have any more? I'm getting tired for today so if you feel offended while reading this it may be because when I'm too sleepy my english goes bad. So good night folks.Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 20:25, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Tired of QQing yet. When you are done get a life. It's a game and different people have fun different ways. Maybe you people don't have the skill level I thought you did. I'm sure you'd discover that there are more than one way to skin a cat and somebody will figure it out. Then what... QQ about the next broken game mechanic. People are smart and figuring out a better way to farm is inevitable. You kill this and someone will find another just as efficient way to farm. That's what happens when you bring millions of gamers to the table. Why don't we all just stoop to your level of "I can't do it, so I'm going to QQ about the person who figured out how to do it better." or better yet, "I'm a much better player than you are because you cheat the game and I don't." Really, your arguments are at the level of a 2 year old. Grow up. If this offends you then, maybe it will cause you to think before you speak. Free thought isn't a crime, it is a reward for the person who thinks things through. That is why you hear in the farming communitiy that if you find a better way to farm, don't tell anyone because someone will QQ about it and Anet might nerf it. 24.176.28.218 00:05, 12 March 2009 (UTC)Jacin Nomin
 * You don't need to be any smart to see that a skill is blatantly broken. And what's broken should be fixed, otherwise it negatively affects the quality of the game as a whole. There are many more issues to be fixed than just SF, but this is the most clearly obvious one. Leaving degenerate stuff like this untouched turns people away from the game, no matter if it's ruining PvP or PvE. And the biggest mistake is letting it go for so long instead of fixing as soon as it becomes obvious it's broken (in this case - mere days after the buff). That's the mistake Anet keeps repeating for years, for example nerfing IWAY or Ursan a year or more after it was obvious they're imba. I wholeheartedly agree with 189.33.79.34's post, this is exactly the problem, only fast nerfs don't cause big QQ'ing and players quitting, as they simply didn't get used to the imba stuff as a normal part of the game.--<font color="#D09010">Yawg [[image:User_Yawg_Pumpkin_Crown.png|Yawg]] 02:16, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I am going to make it simple for thoose who think I am not backing up my opinions.
 * 1: Godmode is imbalanced in a game based on staying alive.
 * 2: Shadow Form is godmode.
 * Godmode always shorten a game's lifelength, and it is something not desirable for the developers, game designers, programmers who invested lots of work in this beautiful game.
 * For you ip:
 * Maybe you people don't have the skill level I thought you did.
 * I have the skill level. I had played UW/Fow, Deep/urgoz with the non gimmick way. I have played shadow form before and I have experienced it. It was the main reason I switched from PvE to PvP.
 *  People are smart and figuring out a better way to farm is inevitable.
 * People won't because if there was a way doing it better people would play that way: Simply shadow form is the most powerful skill in GW1, because it's godmode in a game based on staying alive (can't stress that enough). If you don't see that that's broken then you really need to gain some knowledge in game balance. Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 14:18, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Dear Linsey I think that I have shown you how Shadow Form breaks the game. I want to know if you have considered this skill to be a problem before. Thanks for your response in advance. Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 17:10, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I've considered the skill to be a problem from the moment I took over Live Team. The decision to restore the ability to maintain it was made while I was still working on gw2. The first round of changes (the initial dmg reduction and the changes to chaos plains) were being made when I first moved over. From there, I have pushed us to try a few different ways to balance the skill because I still felt it was a problem. If people are still doing UWSC in 15 minutes then I think it is pretty clear that the skill is still a problem. - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 18:24, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * They still do it before the 30 minute timer of the conset expires, and I think it's still far beyond the ursan's speed. Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 18:45, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * ....Well that's a hell of a first Step! I have nothing to add other than a big "Thanks!" for commenting and letting us know it's continually being looked at. Anyone who's played any kind of Stealth Class long enough can appreciate how tricky the situation really is... -- ilr  07:26, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Good to hear you understand the problem. Please also note that an effect that imbapowerful can be used and abused almost everywhere, it's just most used where it brings biggest profits (like UWSC or the insane Keg Farming), but problem doesn't lie in too fast UWSC but the skill itself. There are countless uses for such a broken game mechanic and if the problem doesn't get removed, it will be also likely threatening any new or revived content that future updates may bring.--<font color="#D09010">Yawg [[image:User_Yawg_Pumpkin_Crown.png|Yawg]] 11:42, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thx linsey for responding.Perhaps the key is into changing the functionality.Assassins need stealth so perhaps not being seen on compass ? Dunno though the mechanic is OP so perhaps trying to rework it instantly will not only reduce the QQ'ing but will save a lot of work if you intend on reworking it later anyway.Thx for your time Lilondra  [[Image:Miniature_Panda.png|21x21px]] *panda*  11:57, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Functionality change at this time is risky business. I would advise against it. It needs a nerf, but it's a tough problem to balance normal gameplay with farming concerns. -- [[Image:User_Alaris_sig.JPG|Alaris_sig]] Alaris 14:24, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * We have already made ~4 attempts to balance this skill without breaking Perma but nothing has really worked thus far. We don't want to be constantly messing with individual skills and try to let things stabilize a bit before tweaking something again. By the time we made the last changes to SF, I was feeling like it would need to be the last time we fiddle around with tweaking it's power. That we might be hitting the threshold where the best course of action is to concede the fight and admit that perma just can't be supported in this skill. I'm not sure what to do now. The idea of giving up on this skill being balanced just gives me a pit in my stomach but I don't have time right now to give this the time it deserves. I'm going to hold off on making any changes until I have the time to play around with it and try something things out on the Dev Server. Unfortunately when I start thinking of what there is ahead of me, I can't find any moments when I'll have the time to invest in balance investigations and testing. Of course, I am suffering from tunnel vision lately and all I can really think about is April. Everything past then is all fuzzy and up to radical change at a moments notice. I put up a post-it that says "Shadow Form perma still a problem" and I'll try to let you guys know if/when I start thinking about and looking at this issue again. - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 15:34, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks Linsey, appreciated. It's a bit like being a parent. Your kids want ice cream (godmode), and it's tough to just keep saying no at every turn. Or worse, giving them a steady diet of ice cream for months and then saying, wait, hold on, that's not good for you, no ice cream anymore. Ouch. :) 189.33.79.34 16:39, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * As always Linsey - you rock! I'm glad godmode might be dealt with down the road! (Though I guiltily admit I'm hoping it's after golden egg weekend).  Sounds like you need a week in the Caribbean after this April release!  Find yourself an island, a book, a palm tree, and a margarita ... ok a few margaritas.  151.209.112.137 16:45, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, not to keep bumping this thread, but... you don't HAVE to concede the Perma fight to balance this skill. Try something new, ask Joe if he can make it remove itself after a certain Damage Threshold is met, IE: Assn kicks Sliver Armor on and does 300 dmg per second... it should end almost immediately.  Assn just uses S-F to get into position without attacking anyone, it should last full duration or until he kills 1 single high-HP target. There's no Design Rule out there stating that Perma is only Perma when it's 100% Godmode.  Conditional Perma is still Perma. -- ilr  20:48, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If you ask me, working on SF only means working on a symptom. It is used a lot simply because effectiveness is the main criterion for a lot of players nowadays.
 * ANet introduced a lot of titles into the game that require only one thing from the player: lots of gold. UWSC and Vaettir farming are simply a very effective way to get this (but at least these players are actually playing and don't buy the gold from goldsellers or use bots to get it). And then there's titles with extremely high max levels, e.g. Kurzick/Luxon. People do DTSC/MQSC (which both use permas and 600/smite) because ~15k faction points in less than 10 minutes is a way to get these titles within a reasonable timeframe (not to mention holding outposts).
 * Sometimes it's better to think about why things are done and not how to prevent them. And yes, I'll return to killing hords of Vaettirs now. Why? Because 4LC provide DP-removal without Sweettooth points, so when I have a stack or two of those I can go vanquishing with other chars than just the one doing the Sweettooth title. --Xelonir 11:02, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Xelonir, come on. :) People want to do things effectively? Really? Of course they do. The issue is when one thing is far more effective than others. That's imbalance. That is the issue in a nutshell. :) 201.6.64.49 16:46, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Anoher important point to me is do you like the accomplishment ? Or do you also like getting that accomplishment ? TBH If the 2nd thing is a "no" I dont know if that accomplishment should exist.If it should exist then atleast make it easier and more fun to get.Shadowform is not fun its grind.It shouldnt exist for ANY reason AT ALL Lilondra  [[Image:Miniature_Panda.png|21x21px]] *panda*  18:25, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

The only purpose of Shadow Form I see is for tanking and for perma sf running. I don't think it should exist for the purpose of farming. But I do see how not nerfing it to unmaintainable would be a bad thing. As such, my proposition is not to effect the duration, but do something similar Ilr suggested. But instead of putting a cap on "damage output" with Shadow Form up, simply make Shadow Form and Sliver Armor non-compatible. Meaning that if an attack "misses" it doesn't trigger Sliver Armor. If a spell doesn't follow through, it doesn't trigger Sliver Armor. As Sliver Armor is the main damage source with Shadow Form, to do this would be a MAJOR blow without eliminating perma SF. Of course, soon after people will figure out other forms of farming, but the "most reliable" would be gone. Not that this all matters to me, as long as I can perma SF run places for my guildies, I'm good. -- Azazel The Assassin\talk 19:48, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem with perma shadow form is godmode. Godmode shouldn't exist in a game based on survival. People could run with assassins without perma. Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 20:21, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but I'd really prefer it if Lin could find a way to fix it W/O breaking it's ability to be used for Running. (otherwise I'd have to rewrite several running guides that I'd rather not touch :p) -- ilr  21:20, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * For heaven's sake, just leave it as it is now. It's been changed and discussed and whined over too many times already. It's fine as it is. If people use it for godmode farming or running, let them. If you don't agree, don't use it. Who cares. It's not like it's ruining YOUR gameplay if someone else runs a permasin. And it doesn't affect the economy either. Ecto's are at a stable 4.5k, and have been for quite some time, even before the last SF change. Give it a rest, so Linsey can also rest :) Sjeng  [[Image:User_Sjeng_Sig_Icon.png|13px|talk ]] 22:41, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It's only fine for people like you who make big profits by abusing the imba skill. It's no argument. A skill THAT overpowered is ruining overall game balance which lowers the overall quality of the game. It also heavily affects the game's economy, only you don't see it, facts about it's effect on economy would make a huge wall of text that I really don't want to put here. Oh, and the only problem with this skill is the possibility to perma it. Without perma it's acceptable and still a very powerful and useful skill in farming and running, and much more fun to play. Fix suggestion: Make it a Form instead of spell-enchantment, make it disable itself for 45 seconds and adjust it's duration +20% to make up for it not being an enchantment. Oh, and do something with the keg spamming.--<font color="#D09010">Yawg [[image:User_Yawg_Pumpkin_Crown.png|Yawg]] 00:18, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Sjeng, even for those who don't use perma SF for farming, the effects do affect them via game "economy" - as Yawg said. Even if you only have Prophecies, you are highly effected by it. Not just the prices of things that come from areas being Perma SF'd but also because said areas *coughUWcough* are full of people who only want Perma SF - therefore forcing you to use a Perma SF sin if you want to do said area. The same goes for 600/Smite and 55's - but on a smaller scale since those are more of getting a run and "do this or you can't join" situations. I think Yawg's suggestion can also work - turn it into a form, add a disabled for x seconds, and increase the length. Another solution would be to increase the duration and recharge, but make it non-perma able, and in addition lesson the "lose all but x health" punishment - making it more viable as you would have time to heal yourself and set up whatever is needed to survive until the skill recharge, instead of being a basic insta wipe. Or, it can have a very short duration with minimal punishment *i.e., "lose xyz health" instead of "lose all but xyz health"* much like Spell Breaker - which is less of an issue. There are many things that can be done with Shadow Form aside from just changing durations and recharge. But I would have to say that Yawg's would be better than what I suggested. Or perhaps a combination. -- Azazel The Assassin\talk 02:16, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * This argument about shadow form roots back to another issue completely called farming. It exists irl, it exists in games.  Like it or not it is something that will happen.  Shadow Form does not effect the part of guild wars where game balance matters, PvP.  It effects PvE, where balance has never been achieved (mostly bcs Player > AI).  If you have a problem with someone else playing shadow form in PvE bcs its "Godmod" (which it is not) then you are sol.  No one can offer any good argument as to why this skill is "bad" for the game. Yes I am telling you all that your points are moot, bcs while this skill does have an effect on the amount of items and gold in circulation for guild wars it is again part of the greater category farming.  Which circles me back to my original point that farming exists. It always will in one form or another, even irl.  For those who don't like that become a nomad on a deserted Island.<font color="#C71585" size="2px">~>Sins <font color="#CA1F7B" size="2px"> WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 04:19, 15 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't be bad. You don't balance PvE the way you balance PvP (i.e. the skill of the two sides is what matters, and thus equal skill should mean a 50% chance at victory); you balance PvE so that it's challenging and fun. PvE balance is possible and important, and if you can't see that, maybe you should do some research before you rant. 69.109.121.242 04:31, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Balance has 1 definition. Any other meaning and you have a modification to the word. PvE can not be balanced except to its own standard, but it is not balanced.<font color="#C71585" size="2px">~>Sins <font color="#CA1F7B" size="2px"> WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 04:43, 15 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I always thought GW was a fantasy game where you do quests etc., not an economy simulation. Personally I couldn't care less about people who do UWSC or other farm runs - I still can enjoy the game. I wonder if the economists among you have nightmares everytime a new load of Z-Keys is dumped into the game (sometimes twice per account due to bugs) for free.
 * But that's adifferent topic, I'd rather add some more options of modifying SF to the one proposed by Ilr:
 * a) If you're only worried about UWSC: "... Hostile spells targeting you fail, and attacks from non-spirit creatures against you miss. ..." and put up some Rit spirits like Disenchantment in the UW.
 * b) Make it "Ends if you cast a (non-Assassin) spell." Sins can still rush (stances) or attack normally while using SF.
 * These solutions are probably easier to implement than Ilr's suggestion, but I still like his idea best. --Xelonir 08:23, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * An easier quick fix to the economic problem would be to re-add Cursed Dream Riders and Mindflay Spectres to the underworld (for those who aren't familiar with them, Mindflay Spectres could strip Shadow Form with Signet of Disenchantment, and Cursed Dream Riders spawned Mindflay Spectres when killed), but it wouldn't address the profession balance issue, assassins would still be severely overpowered in PvE while able to run perma-SF builds and underpowered while unable to run it. -- [[Image:User Gordon Ecker sig.png]] Gordon Ecker (talk) 09:22, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Might as well throw Ursan back into play so everyone can join in the imba godmode goodness.-- BabyJ [[Image:User BabyJ Monkey.jpg|25px]] 13:26, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ursan was NOT a godmode. It was indeed strong but still. It did not provide defense against all attacks and spells. Shadow Form is still stronger than pre-nerf Ursan was. Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 14:34, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It is true that ursan was not godmode and SF is stronger than pre-nerf ursan. But the point remains, if one broken imba skill is left as is, why not put another broken skill back like it was and bring some life to the completely dead areas of the game. Surely if Sin's are able to clear UW in 15 mins, why not let other classes farm other parts of the game, which takes much longer than 15 mins. I completely understand Lindsey is busy, and I commend her for all the excellent hard work she has put into the game. But that doesn't change the fact that the godmode skill needs a fix or ursan needs a look at as well.-- BabyJ [[Image:User BabyJ Monkey.jpg|25px]] 15:26, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well. My point is that there should be viable ways for Every profession to farm areas, and this kind of farming should be team based. And there should be no god-mode, no speedclear. Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 16:50, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Very idealistic, but people don't farm in teams because team = less drops per player. Unless you change that people will always come up with solo (or maximum duo) builds for farming. [[Image:User Xelonir sig.png| ]]Xelonir 18:40, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well... We just need an updated loot scaling which includes all items. Of course there should be an increased drop for full parties (maybe around 110% of normal. 105% is still perfectly good) Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 18:57, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I personally think that SF should stay the same, even how it is now 75% of UWSC groups fail. Plus this is the only way casual players can make enough money to buy all the titles you need to get God Walking and such. Who cares if ecto go down to 2k each? Their are still dupers that have over 500k ecto, should they get 'nerfed'? Just because theirs an effective way at doing a area doesnt mean it's OP'd. If anything needs to be done to prevent the 15 minute runs and such have the Obsidian Behemoth bring Spike Trap. This would bring the 25% of pug UWSC groups completing UW down to 15% or so. Right now if you hit a trap while running to your spot, ya just use IAU and then Feigned Neutrality. With Spiked, adding an additional 40 damage - 80damage they will probably die. Most times when someone gets hit it brings em down to 25%, that would really kill it. Another thing you could do, is have the Obsidian Behemoth bring Muddy Terrain, this skill being as annoying as it is wouldn't let you run past the traps, the team would have to find a way to have each assassin pick a behemoth and wand him for 90 seconds until the old traps are dead. My last suggestion is pretty evil, put Tranquility on their bars. This would mean a new build would have to be created to do the hardest area, Mountain.
 * It is clear that you (72.230) don't have a clue about game balance.
 * let me explain you: "Just because theirs an effective way at doing a area doesnt mean it's OP'd." translates to It's not OP'd because someone is using it for doing an area. See shard's How to lose an argument. (you lost because you couldn't back up your statement with solid reasoning)
 * Shadow form is broken because of the reasons I mentioned before many times (shadow form=god-mode & Shadow form>Pre-nerf Ursan). Shadow form ruins the whole quality of the game. To all anons: Stop thinking that shadow form is a skill that should stay in this format. Cheating is not something considered to be balanced. And read the discussion before posting.Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 16:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Lingering Curse, Foul Feast, Plague Sending
I'm glad whoever is doing skill balancing now took some initiative and nerfed Wail of Doom in the last update but it needs to go further with skills that have absolutely wrecked TA, and to a lesser extent GvG. In it's current form Foul Feast should be an elite skill and Plague Sending isn't far behind. Lingering Curse is insanely punishing for a passive hex that also has en AoE effect, almost universally hated in how it plays in arenas, HA and GvG. Please consider adjusting the energy gain on Foul Feat, the recharge on Plague Sending and nerfing Lingering Curse significantly in the next update. Hate to be a crybaby about skills but something has got to be done... Oxycanta 17:21, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Plague sending is weak, it only shines because necromancers have a skill they shouldn't ever have been given (FF). ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 19:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Not even in PvE? ...Kinda hard to make a NeMo buff/blood-bot without it.  And in PvE, Blood needs all the help it can get to compete against Curse/Death builds. -- ilr  21:15, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Once again, I'm going to point you all to the Skill feedback pages for these discussions. They don't belong on Linsey's page when there exists a more appropriate place for them. Linsey knows how to find them when it's time for her to be looking at skill changes. --[[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png | Wyn's Talk page]] Wyn 21:44, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * what about the skills that actually are issues? the feedback pages (all ppls ideas/suggestions) is a mess to look through and more or less ruins the chanse for acctually important stuff to reach anet.... --<font color="Black">Cursed Angel [[Image:User Cursed Angel Signature2.jpg|19px|Q.Q]] 21:28, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * DarkNecrid is in the process of cleaning them up/Archiving them. Feel free to help him. The simple fact is Linsey doesn't want skill discussions on this page, so if you want skill feedback to get to her, you might want to help keep the skill feedback pages relevant. --[[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png | Wyn's Talk page]] Wyn 21:53, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Like Wyn said, if you guys can work on getting those pages into something that is easier for me to look at and use in the future, that would be great. Right now I am really focused on polishing up my work for April, so I can't get distracted with balance discussions and they would just end up cluttering my page. Wyn is going to make it easy for me to navigate over the skill feedback pages and once all this crazy stuff with April gets better I'll try to be active on those pages. I am still pretty new to working on skill balance so I do appreciate the feedback and I'd like to become more comfortable with taking care of that stuff. Thanks guys! - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 22:35, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * While you're here, I've completed archiving 4 of 10 sections in ArenaNet:Skill_feedback so far: Warrior, Ranger, Monk, Necromancer. I've archived any outdated ideas (that don't make sense from buffs/nerfs/functionality changes, etc.) and am currently working on the Mesmer section. I haven't removed some ideas (even if Izzy replied to them) because I figure you might still want to read them some time and they at least still make sense. Depending on time, I might have to hold off on the other 5 professions until tomorrow, but if you get time and can check it out, feel free to let me know if you have any ideas or suggestions on how we can improve the system to work better for you and what you think so far. :) DarkNecrid 22:46, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Izzy had separate sections for overpowered/underpowered skills. Would something like that be more manageable than having every skill in the same place?  ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 22:50, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * (@Linsey) I don't think it's fair to expect you to comment on all that Feedback, but can we atleast take this to mean there will be some kind of indicator in the future on each major section of feedback that it has atleast been read by 1 or more Devs from the Live team? A Template or even just a check-icon?  Without indicators, sections like those are considered septic tanks. -- ilr  23:53, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes and yes. Separate skills by underpowered and overpowered. Make a template to check a section as read and I will use it. - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 00:50, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Alright, I'm sure Wyn and whoever can get that done for you ASAP. I'm probably going to get 1-2 more professions archived up later today, and I'll finish the rest tomorrow, and we can start getting that set up for you. :D ( Can't believe I've spent 9 hours today doing this... ) DarkNecrid 00:57, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * @Linsey, we have the checkmark template Yes which makes a Yes if you want to put those on skill list page. How about a template that has an X or check for if you've read it, plus a "last reviewed on DMY."  Maybe I'll make a screenshot of what I'm thinking of.  ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 01:02, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * We also have a No template giving you a No, or red gives you a red one red. &mdash; Jon  [[Image:User_Jon_Lupen_Sig_Image.png|18px]]  Lupen  01:07, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Shard, we can work out the details without bothering Linsey, as long as we keep it wiki easy for her. If it means redesigning some of the skill feedback templates, that's cool too, but let's talk about it on my page. --[[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png | Wyn's Talk page]] Wyn 01:09, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Better yet, on ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback? -- [[Image:User Brains12 circle sig.png|18px|]] Brains12 \ talk 01:11, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That works too, my brain just didn't want to wrap around how to type that link atm :P --[[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png | Wyn's Talk page]] Wyn 01:16, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. The point with all of this is to make it as easy and fast as possible for me to use. Since my job has changed quite a bit with this new way we are doing Live Team, my time is a lot more precious (I often don't even have time to go to meetings or eat lunch any more). So anything you guys can do to contribute is much appreciated!! - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 01:25, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Lunch is overrated ^^ --<font color="Black">Cursed Angel [[Image:User Cursed Angel Signature2.jpg|19px|Q.Q]] 18:31, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Elementalist PvE Skills, thoughts?
Since you seem to like Eles...my first char was an Ele a long time ago, and I think PvE design has put Eles into a rather boring spot. Sure, they do *great*, right now they can chain KDs with AP Meteor Storm/Churning Earth and can throw out free 200+ HP heals with ER, but I think one of the best parts of being an Ele has been undermined because of PvE's design. I picked Ele not to be a nuker, but to play a support role (not mash Infuse on everyone support, but blindbot/snare/wards, etc). However, quite a few monsters in PvE have condition/hex duration reduction which limits the number of viable skills we can use really. If it isn't a high duration condition/hex with a low recharge, it's never going to stick, and that means people won't take it in PvE. I think this is ok with other classes like Mesmer/Necro with hexes that penalize the monster for being dumb, but for an Ele it really penalizes the Ele being smart, and it really limits the number of bar options Eles can use in groups. The Ele PvE skills are sorely lacking in balance compared to the other PvE skills! Eles get a skill that is a weaker and strippable Glyph of Elemental Power and a skill that is outdone by "By Ural's Hammer!" in every way. Ele is the only class with a super subpar Allegiance/Sunspear PvE skill, I think that's pretty lame! I don't like PvE skills in general, but I think if they are to exist they should at least be interbalanced between themselves and add variety.

Since I think asking for a change without suggesting a fix is dumb, here's a suggestion for fix:
 * Give Master of Magic a PvE version. The PvE version has the same stats, but is no longer an Enchantment (just a skill), and reads: "For 10...60 seconds, all your elemental attributes are increased by +9...12 and you gain +0...2 Energy regeneration. This skill ends if you use a non-Elementalist skill." This lets an Elementalist spec into multiple elemental lines (no longer setting the attributes, but increasing them), get rune bonuses, etc, and makes it more viable in PvE. You could run a blindbot + snare + warder with that skill pretty decently. People could use it for nuking too, so it can be multi purpose.


 * Rebuff Elemental Lord to +2 all attributes. There's no reason it should be +1 honestly. Right now it is a weaker GOEP that can be stripped. This skill could actually be made PvP legal and it wouldn't screw up anything, it sucks that bad. <.<


 * For Intensity, maybe "5/1/30 - Skill. For 10 seconds, all Conditions and Elementalist Hexes you apply last 50...100% longer and your spells do 15...25% more damage." This makes it different than BUH and not completely underpowered compared to it. It won't last as long as BUH, but it gives you a better side effect compared to it, too.

Just random thoughts, I wonder what you think about Elementalist PvE skill balance/their situation? :) I've had to reroll to Warrior because I find playing a viable Elementalist in PvE to be too boring, hardly doing any support at all unless if I'm mashing Infuse on someone - not my idea of a good time. DarkNecrid 07:07, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't MoM be a wee bit OP <.< Mini Me  [[Image:User Mini Me sig.png|19px|talk]] 07:52, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Level 28 Rodgort's Invocations are perfectly balanced. --75.71.67.5 07:57, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You can only reach Attribute Level 20 through skill buffs, in this case it is nothing special, you can already do it with Double Dragon x 2 or Double Dragon + GOEP or Elemental Lord. It is probably slightly overpowered, but that's why I said make it a PvE version (keep the PvP version the same). It's not even close to how insane Ether Renewal is, but it lets a lot more versatile and supportive builds come into play. DarkNecrid 08:11, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't crush my dreams. --75.71.67.5 08:13, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Having very nearly 20 in every Elementalist attribute, and unstrippable to boot, would not be balanced at all, even given that it's PvE. Why would you use any other elite ever again?
 * I do think the PvE skills could be better, though, since at the moment the only one anyone ever really uses is Intensity for Sliver Armor perma, and that's only if they don't have BUH/EBSoH. They are not very useful, let alone to primary Elementalists. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 08:25, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I think there are many reasons why you would use other elites over that version of MoM in PvE. MoM only lets you use many non-elite skills from various elemental lines together, so it gives you a lot of power spread out, but there are better options for nuking & support. People would still use AP for Meteor Storm, and people would still use ER for support, it's not like anyone uses anything else except MAYBE Searing Flames or Savanah's Heat, and those are still better than all their non-elite alternatives (altho Rodgort's is a nice alt, people would run that with Double Dragon for additional damage anyways imo.). This just gives them an extra option with a different kind of support build, and even then you're still missing out on Blinding Surge and such if you want to run that. I really do not think this would eclipse all other elites. Infinite energy (AP/ER) and infinite godly prots/250HP insta recharge heals are still > this, but this is a nice viable third option tbh. DarkNecrid 09:12, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Also these are just rough ideas that would need number tweaking etc, but possible ideas to branch off of. I personally think one way or another something needs to be done to a) Improve Elementalist PvE skills compared to other classes and b) Give Elementalists a viable support build other than Ether Renewal. I just kinda tried to do both at the same time rather than independently. I'm more interested in what Linsey thinks tho and don't really want this becoming a wall of text like the Ritualist discussion and she never winds up reading it. :/ DarkNecrid 09:33, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Elementalists have always been able to find parties, from the beginning of the game until now - even through the most elitist PvE metas, eles have always found a spot (SF nuker for tank-and-nuke DoA groups, cry nuker, shadow form tank, general met shower nuking back in FoW days). The problem you aren't realizing is... there's no problem. You're trying to add solutions to fix something that isn't broken. Eles already do entirely too much damage with SF + cry. You want to give them more? Why? What purpose does it solve? They're already a highly-prized class because of what they can do. Do you really want to put them that much farther ahead than rits and sins and even dervs for grouping?
 * You are also vastly overrating higher attributes for utility skills. A 20-spec gale is no better than a 5-spec gale, and nobody will run either because it is single-target (and in PvE, that simply doesn't cut it for the cost). Repeat that for basically every ele utility skill (bflash, single target 15e - even if it lasted 3 years, people wouldn't touch it). Add on the fact that the greater part of an ele's utility is from his secondary (rit for melee buffing weapons, monk for converts, nec for ench stripping and weakness), and this change looks really damn pointless. Nice try, but look at buffing classes that need buffing. - Auron 10:35, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Touche, I just guess I would rather see something that is Ele & support more viable (even if it's of questionable use) that doesn't include LOL MASH INFUSE HEALTH ON EVERYONE!11!1!! or SBond, because really the type of support you mentioned is stuff I don't mind doing, but honestly, you're not going to find that in any PvE groups as an E/X unless if you take a bunch of PvPers. ER is too good and that's all I ever seem to have got asked to be (I couldn't even get into a group as a BSurge Ele.), and ER is more boring than a Paragon. And that's a pretty tough job to accomplish. I just really really hate ER but I know they won't nerf it. They should still do something with the PvE skills though, they're pretty worthless. DarkNecrid 12:08, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Vili. as long as shadow form is out with this version it is balanced for PvE. (just to indicate how op shadow form is but that topic had been discussed (for the record give me any three-skill combination that makes you immune to both attacks and spells)). But normally it would be op. Maybe intensity would be better as an 50% Armor penetration bonus... Just wondering Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 13:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Obsidian Flesh, Stoneflesh Aura, and Mantra of Resolve<font color="#C71585" size="2px">~>Sins <font color="#CA1F7B" size="2px"> WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 19:25, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * *Agrees with basically everything Auron said* ...Player Eles are pretty much the one class I always feel is a good consistent addition to any PuG b/c they're so Idiot-Proof in PvE, especially since they're usually taking up a filler-spot anyway.-- ilr  21:10, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The Elementalist's PvE skills are outclassed, but if they were buffed to match Cry of Pain (which outclasses all Elementalist nukes) then they would be overpowered. Maybe they could be turned into more practical problem solving skills, like Summon Spirits and Eternal Aura. 145.94.74.23 23:05, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, the PvE Ele skills are pretty weak atm, but Auron does have a good point. Ele's are rarely want for a group. Maybe once the current craziness settles down, I can think about this a little more, but I can't take your suggestions per the current licensing issues. - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 21:37, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

No offense but
Hi Linsey! I have decided to comment on your last skill update, because I don't agree with every part of it.

link

Anyway, that's all for now.Boro 15:29, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * There's a whole area for skill feedback. Please use it - Linsey's talk doesn't need to get unnecessarily long with +7kb opening posts. I'm sure you could rant about balance in your userspace too. Also, just link to the developer update page instead of copypasting it all here. -- [[Image:User Brains12 circle sig.png|18px|]] Brains12 \ talk 15:32, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Exept he didnt rant at all.All he did was say what HE THINKS is the problem in a calm way.All he did was giving suggestions and another vision.TBH as long as not everyone does it its ok.And boro did it in a fine way Lilondra  [[Image:Miniature_Panda.png|21x21px]] *panda*  16:38, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Not really Lilondra... as Brains pointed out, there is an entire area for skill feedback, as well as the dev update talk page to directly address concerns with specific updates. Linsey's talk page seriously does not need another 7mb wall of text when there are more appropriate places for it. We are simply trying to prevent what happened to Izzy's page from happening to Linsey's unless you want to see her leave the wiki as well... --[[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png | Wyn's Talk page]] Wyn 16:43, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm considering that I might put it into my userspace, and leave here a link about it. so here is the link March 5 "rant"(copypasting in a minute). Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 18:04, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess I support this... Mostly just b/c I miss the days when both my Paragon and my Warrior were the most fun I was having... before the Armor Nerf, all these functionality changes, and EotN skills that 100% favor Casting classes instead. *Emo*  -- ilr  21:23, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * ^Exept for the fact that warrior still is (one of) the most fun class to play paragons were broken.By design so they had to nerf/kill/slaughter/... them Lilondra  [[Image:Miniature_Panda.png|21x21px]] *panda*  06:21, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep. Paragon was a broken and unbalanceable idea. Finales are only useful in 8paragon teams. For more than a year they didn't find out what was the problem with Song of Restoration. same with ballad of restoration... They were broken or useless. Same on assassins: Look at Shadow Prison, Backbreaker and Palm strike assassin. Broken or useless. Please Linsey give me one reason why did you forgot about them for about... I don't know. More than a year Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 13:36, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The idea of solokilling someone is broken.If sins could only spikeassist to go to midline and support they would be a lot less broken Lilondra  [[Image:Miniature_Panda.png|21x21px]] *panda*  13:39, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yepp. And if auron's idea was implemented, assassins would have been used for more support (deadly paradox FTW). Oh and I would like you (Linsey) to read thoose comments. Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 13:48, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I was either working on Guild Wars 2 or not working on skill balances. That's two reasons. I'll read this stuff when I have time to. - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 22:16, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * So that's how it happened. But at least you know what's the problem with them so it can be remedied. Yess. Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 13:03, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Now I would like to show you something: how to win in guild wars he farms vaettirs by using nothing but budger's kegs to deal damage.

And the second thing: Difficulty. Guild Wars' difficulty is a weird thing. First when prophecies was out difficulty was fine: Difficult but playable. Then came out factions (and the broken skill above), and it was okay. But with nightfall and the appearance of heroes, PvE became easy, so you decided to add difficulty to make it challenging, and you made DoA. But the problem is: Challenging content is when the group of players have to think how to solve a problem (usual challenging content:keeping an NPC alive, fighting against the timer, splitting (like in High priest alkar's quest)). And instead of adding challenging content, You (arenanet) pumped enormous amount of steroids into monsters (enraged). To see the difference:
 * challenging content
 * A: How are we supposed to go keep Jalis alive?
 * B: We should use a blind/block against physicals and interrupts against casters.
 * DoA content
 * A: How are we supposed to go trough this area(DOA)?
 * b: I don't know. There is no currently known way to deal with them.

Boro 13:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I should mention when Shard was making that video, Adrin solo vanquished all of the norn areas %100 using Budger and that SF build while me, Shard and Leon AFK'd at the shrines. I recall Shard was adding the music to that clip, I was painting my nails and talking on the phone with my sister and Leon was playing some fighting game on his ps3. Adrin cleared it all in under and hour. -- *Yasmin Parvaneh*  [[Image:User_yasmin_parvaneh_sig.png]] 17:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I wonder how that makes you "win" GW, though. True, you can probably vanquish all the Norn areas easily that way. But you cannot take Budger anywhere else. And for normal farming it looks like a bad choice to me: all the Vaettirs are killed simultaneously, which AFAIK drastically removes the amount of items dropped. [[Image:User Xelonir sig.png| ]]Xelonir 19:39, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I farm Vaettir with an Elementalist, so they still all die "instantly" (24 or 36 at once) but if I come back there after a long absence (resetting the anti-farming code), I get plenty of drops. It seems silly that just killing enemies simultaneously would reduce their drop rates in any way.  [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali  21:40, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
 * From the little farming experience I have I would say that when you kill monsters individually almost every monster drops an item or gold. What do you get from the 60 Vaettirs? 2-6 items, maybe 8? But certainly not 50-60 drops. [[Image:User Xelonir sig.png| ]]Xelonir 07:35, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * People who farm the Secret Lair of the Snowmen report that killing all of them simultaneously with nukes often leads to decreased drops and sometimes it does not even update the kill count properly. So it definitely has some sort of effect. Either that, or that particular area is bugged... :p Vili &gt;8&lt; [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 07:43, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Topic freezed until monthly maintenance update... Fingers crossed. Boro 16:20, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * We need a better way for people to give feedback on balance, but for the time being, I can't take suggestions on anything until the licensing issues are resolved. As Izzy has less and less time to look at balance and I'll be needing to take it up more, I'd really like there to be a central location for balance discussion and feedback for me browse and participate in discussion. But until the licensing issues are resolved I can't do that. - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 22:02, 18 April 2009 (UTC)