User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Overpowered Skills/PvE and Monster/Archive 2

This skill kills all melee classes and is fatal for anyone who gets stuck in a corner. Raise recharge to 10 seconds? Done25 18:39, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe the idea is to make melee classes unusable against it.. &mdash; Skuld 18:45, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Even if that is the point, it is madness how unbalanced it is when he walkes up to a gate then spams this until everything is dead. This skill makes the Juggernaut cry. Done25 18:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Killing the turtle helps. All the other disadvantages of the NPC that uses this skill makes this balanced. Besides, if the turtle is still alive up to a certain point, it ususally means your team sucks anyways, and doesn't really deserve to win. The turtle is also not as impossible to melee as many people think. Simply wait for the turtle to use Siege, combo it, and it'll fall in no time. This just seems like a skill that prevents unskilled Whammos from standing up beside the turtle and just chopping away at the turtle. That would throw all balance in FA away. FA teams fail because of mostly crappy builds and players not knowing wtf to do. Then they run into a turtle and try to hack away at it. This skill merely balances the map out, as well as taking care of bonding or people that pull their NPC's to just behind the gate, making it impossible to kill. --76.64.186.175 21:21, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Of course! How could I not gess that I was supposed to kill the Turtle in the 3 second frame it's attack left open! *gasp* Uh oh. Look its a monk and he has a healing skill! *dies* Done25 15:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but that logic sucked. Why would you even consider attacking the turtle if there's a monk healing it? 76.64.186.175 04:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Because it's destroying your gates? Done25
 * So would an Ele. Kill the monk. 76.64.59.41 04:18, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * But how do you get near the monk? Done25
 * Hmm, this skill annoyed me when I first started with Assassin in FA, but I learned, and now It's not the problem. You just need to know when to attack. It's a strong skill against melee, but I don't think it's the problem. Kurzicks are defending, and should use to learn archers more. Heck, I even use Savage Shot on a necro! :) Servant of Kali 13:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A tip for Assassins, wait until he starts to fire then let out your spike, Ive killed alot with a beguiling haze sin doing just that... warriors.......... just let something else kill it, same for dervishes.--Atlas Oranos 19:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Everyone seems to be failing to realize the reason why this skill was created in the first place: It was meant to stop people from bodyblocking the turtle. For that the teleport and the fast recharge and activation are necessary, but it honestly does NOT need that much damage on it, especially since it affects NPCs (I know we've all seen a turtle obliterate a gate in no time flat with this skill at least once) --66.67.187.203 01:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * LOL I've played through factions at least 4 times and never heard of this skill. I suggest you play better. Shard
 * It's also important to know that Kurzicks have a shitload more Anti-Melee than the Luxons do. &mdash; Rapta (talk|contribs) 00:04, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it's only used in the competitive missions, I've never seen it used by the PvE versions of Siege Turtles. -- Gordon Ecker 03:36, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Kills melee classes? Ever heard of Ward against Melee or Reckless Haste? Unsteady Ground? Stop whinging and get real Kurzicks there is FAAAR more anti melee in the Kurzick side than there is on the Luxon side. Play the other side for a while to learn about the balance. This skill is fine. 58.110.142.117 09:03, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Bull. Those can be stopped or stripped. This this is a SKILL whoes recarge cannot be increased. Those cost energy, have a cast time, and need to recharge. This skill has no cost, a 1/4 cast, and ONE second recharge. This is madness. The one good thig is that it will randomly break and the turtle will not use it for a good portion of time. Done25 20:21, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Still, 3 skills > 1 skill, and you only have to fight two turtles, while you fight 2 eles at the first gate, then 2 eles and a necro at the second. &mdash; Skakid9090 20:22, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If you really want to get into it, Juggernaut Toss has long been overpowered. Not only because it knocks down for 5 seconds, but also because it has been bugged since day 1. --Curse You 03:25, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I know its PvE only, but 400 damage and 15 seconds of blind? How is Alem going to cope with this? Can you imagine a 12v12 AB with all Junundus? - elviondale (tahlk) 22:35, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That would be fun. :P Done25 22:38, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I lol'd. --Tensei 02:05, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure it is by far the best out of the junundu optional skills, but does it even matter when junundu are killing machines that roll everything in sight even without the optional skills? --Xeeron 11:29, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I get pissed off if I consume a corpse and get anything but this. Pluto 22:44, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I dont get it. why do you even CARE if a pve skill is overpowered. its GOOD for u if its overpowered. Because its PvE only, it means the skill will never be used against you. besides, junundu are supposed to be ridiculously cheap.68.226.80.7 19:54, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A significant part of fun comes from solving puzzles and overcoming challenges. EZ-mode gameplay isn't interesting and isn't fun outside of very short stretches, at best it can be addicting through the easy rewards it offers.  I personally browse forums while cspacing around in wurm form.  Why do I want PvE balanced in a way that encourages me to disengage from playing the game? -Ensign 20:49, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 1. its elemental dmg 2. you have to use Junundu Feast on a corpse before you get a random skill, you must be lucky to get Blinding Breath --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:80.133.77.88.
 * "Because its PvE only, it means the skill will never be used against you" LoL! So the monsters and such don't use skills?
 * "you must be lucky to get Blinding Breath" Yep. 33% of the time.  And since Feast is a skill I constantly use, I get it several times per SS/LB run - elviondale  (tahlk) 19:07, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I lol'd. I think you missed the forest while you were staring at one tree. --Tankity Tank 13:53, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah I don't get this comment at all. When I'm in the wurm parts of the game I just mash on my spacebar while reading forums until everything is dead.  What do the skills do again? -Ensign 09:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Dude nerfing this skill will not change anything, you will still spacebar and reading forums. Imo its not even worth using Junundu Feast to get a random skill. Btw. how do you read forums and use worm skills at the same time ? Blinding Breath is balanced this way: it only works in melee, spamm it and you will run out of energy, try it. 27 September 2007 (UTC)

make the recharge fit the description please. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Skakid9090. 21:29, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Boss damage buff
This seems like the most appropriate place for this comment. As Ravious mentioned over on the Protective Spirit section of the overpowered Monk skills page, the double damage part of Factions and Nightfall bosses' double damage and healing buff has a huge effect on PvE tactics. In order to survive an encounter with a nuker boss, one of the following is required: constant shutdown (in other words, Dazed from Broad Head Arrow) or constant damage prevention (in other words, Protective Spirit, Life Barrier, Spirit Bond or "There's Nothing to Fear!"). Other Daze skills either can't consistantly Daze, can't be used at the start of battle or can't keep up Dazed continuously, and non-Daze shutdown skills can't be kept up continuously. Other damage prevention skills are either designed to deal with a large number of small damage packets (Shield of Absorption, Shielding Hands, Union etc.), can't be kept up continuously ("Save Yourselves!", Divine Intervention, Mark of Protection, Revesal of Fortune, "Incoming!") or are conditional ("They're on Fire!"). Additionally, Dazed is subject to condition removal, and every sustainable damage prevention skill except for "There's Nothing to Fear!" is subject to enchantment removal. There's also Obsidian Flesh and Shadow Form, but only Obsidian Flesh can be kept up indefinitely. So there's only six reasonably reliable nuker boss survival skills: Broadhead Arrow, Protective Spirit, Life Barrier, Spirit Bond, Obsidian Flesh and "There's Nothing to Fear!". In normal mode, I suggest reducing the damage bonus to 50%, or replacing it with a bonus to attributes or skill recharge times, so that nuker bosses don't require as much specialisation to deal with, hard mode bosses are fine as they are. -- Gordon Ecker 02:38, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Why? Monks should carry PS or SB anyway. –Ichigo724 16:10, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * But what about Ritualists? They can't compete with healing Monks, protection Monks, TNtF Paragons, fire Elementalist or earth Elementalists, their niche has been shrinking since the release of Factions. They've never had it as bad in PvE as Paragons did between the "Incoming!" nerf and the addition of "There's Nothing to Fear!", but they still have it pretty bad right now. -- Gordon Ecker 01:31, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Rt/Mo? ;p –Ichigo724 04:33, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * rits are awesome. melee ultra-mega buff with splinter, then spirit rift for aoe, use spirit light for insane heals, item/weapon spells for un-strippable awesomeness of all sorts, all using only 2 attributes. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090 (contribs). 05:29, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hopefully the Asura's three rumoured summoning skills will expend the Ritualist's PvE niche thanks to Spawning Power, but I'm going pretty far off topic. -- Gordon Ecker 05:39, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Uh, what? Didn't someone have this kind of conversation in reverse when the armor cap was introduced? I'm not actually even sure if you want to buff it or nerf it. If normal mode is not enough challenge, go Hard Mode. If monsters hit every time over 10% of your health, and you got for example 2 melee characters hitting you say, once in a second. Your tank will be dead every 5 seconds unless you heal him/her to the full health. Just be glad prot spirit is there and quit whining :) - IH 09:32, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I want to either nerf boss' double damage and healing buff (or at least the damage part of it) in normal mode because it restricts skill choices and party diversity or buff Ritualist damage prevention and non-Ranger shutdown to encourage party diversity. In the other discussion, I said that, if they nerf Protective Spirit, it should be a narrow nerf which singles out the problematic use while leaving other uses largely unaffected. Ichigo thinks Protective Bond and Protective Spirit don't need competition. Skakid thinks Ritualists are great as they are and don't need a buff. -- Gordon Ecker 10:01, 5 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I really don't agree with this suggestion, not in Normal Mode. I have said it in the discussion about Protective Spirit, but here it goes again: I think this kind of thing is exactly what Guild Wars needs. In the great majority of times, you are able to overcome your enemies by outdamaging them, not paying that much attention to defense. Those bosses that deal twice damage make this impossible - if you just charge in, they will kill you before you kill them. In other words, the usual "tank/nuker/healer" approach does not really work, as your tank would be ashes before your nuker can kill the boss and the healer won't be able to cope with it. And that's how it should be, IMO - I don't think the same strategy should work in the entire game. This is one of the (very very few) features in the GW PvE that actually promote shut down, as opposed to just charging in. Gordon made a good summary in the beginning of this section of what are avaliable options for dealing with those bosses, but he has forgotten many available options - he has not mentioned THE shutdown profession, the Mesmers. Those are usually considered useless in PvE, and the main reason behind that, IMO, is exactly how shut down is useless when compared to raw damage in the great majority of PvE. Double damage bosses help to make such shut down more important - be it through Arcane Conodrum, or Power Block (works wonders against those bosses), or any of the other Power interrupts, or Guilt and Shame, and so on. Even a Ritualist has ways to deal with this, through Wanderlust, Shelter, Warmonger Weapon, and so on. More importantly, though, I don't expect a single party member to be able to deal with this by himself - GW is and hopefully will always be a team based game. Even if you lack a character focused only on taking down those bosses, team strategy and skill (player skill, not only the builds) should be enough to deal with this. And IMO, it is.
 * The problem with increasing diversity is that the biggest way to improve diversity is by making everything easy - then all builds work. By making a challenge, you have a situation in which some builds work better than others, and other builds don't work at all. As long as it's kept within a reasonable margin, like here (most professions have some sort of shutdown, and it's something easy to adapt in the party), I think it's a great addition to the game - it makes players think on how to overcome it, as opposed to just steamrolling their way through the game. Erasculio 14:51, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that the boss mobs are the encounters that require some tactics and foresight in PvE. The double damage bosses in Factions and Nightfall are all kinds of dangerous and need to be shut down hard, unlike the Prophecies bosses which are safely ignored until the rest of their mob is dead.  However I think you overestimate the number of options available for dealing with those bosses.  One of the annoying properties of many Factions bosses is that in addition to being much more deadly, they are also significantly harder to disable, between faster cast times and faster recharges.  Player interrupts, for instance, are not very useful against Factions bosses because you simply cannot hit their 1s spells, while in Hard Mode even their 2s cast spells become impossible to reactively interrupt.  Also, many Mesmer shutdown abilities are attrition based - edenial and skill lockout through Diversion being the most apparent - or punishing (Backfire), neither of which are all that relevant against boss monsters that will blow up your team in 5 seconds if unchecked.  As it stands, *the* solution to boss casters is Broadhead Arrow, pretty much period.  It's the only source of long term shutdown shutdown and outclasses anything a Mesmer can do by a wide margin.
 * I do think there's too much emphasis on the defensive end on Protspirit tanking of mobs to eliminate most of the damage, though that's an AI issue with mobs loving to focus fire much more than they should with protted targets around. -Ensign 22:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it's amazingly ironic that rangers, which already have many other roles on PvE, are the best source of shut down in that game mode, while Mesmers (who theorically should be better) actually became less useful. I really wish there were a PvE mesmer skill that added Dazed - make it Elite, give it some conditions, or whatever, but I think that would really help. Anyway, I think a way to help with this issue would be to keep the bosses doing the double damage, with half recharge as they have today, but to remove the half casting time. Granted, players would continue to use mostly Rangers (now with Distracting Shot, not only BHA), but Mesmers would become more useful, at least. Erasculio 15:38, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I got Legendary Vanquisher with Heroes and Henchmen...Double damage is not a problem if your Monks have a brain and you use Prot Spirit/SoA/Shielding Hands appropriately and you can tank decently. It requires people to look at their skills in PvE and make bars that work for various encounters. Whether or not those players can use those skills better than Heroes is another thing... Gothica 01:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I just got an interesting idea. What about reducing the damage and healing and giving bosses and boss-like foes a permanent buff similar to Angelic Protection or Amulet of Protection to make them more durable? -- Gordon Ecker 02:18, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

This whole discussion has been rendered redundant by Pain Inverter. Now not only nukers, but everyone can outdamage caster bosses. --Xeeron 14:31, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Only if you can survive long enough. Ilsundur, Lord of Fire and The Great Destroyer are jokes against Pain Inverted, but some boss-like foes, such as Fendi Nin and Duncan the Black, have so much Health that Pain Inverter is useless without sustainable defense or sustainable shutdown. I suspect that Tortureweb Dryder bosses and most Hard Mode nuker bosses also fit into this category. When's the last time you saw "GLF Mesmer", "GLF Ritualist" or "GLF Paragon" in PvE? -- Gordon Ecker 01:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Duncan is supposed to be the harded boss of GWEN, it would be a shame if you could kill him with one skill, and Fendi comes close to that. All "normal" ele bosses drop VERY quickly to Pain inverter. That groups don't look for Paragons is only due to pug's being unaware of how awesome the class is in PvE, that they dont look for mesmers or ritualists shows that double boss damage is not enough of a problem to warrant bringing classes that could counter it. So why nerf it? --Xeeron 11:01, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I meant that people don't look for Mesmers or Ritualis in PvE because BHA Rangers can provide far better shutdown than Mesmers and Protection monks can provide far better protection than Ritualists along with powerful healing. As for Paragons, I think their problem is that they're not PUG-friendly, multi-Paragon team setups require multiple Paragons, tying up multiple party slots, while single Paragons can't specialize well, providing a significant communacations barrier for group formation, other professions can provide concise explanations of exactly how they can contribute to a party, such as "healing", "damage" or "caster shutdown", Paragons generally can't fulfill a party's need for one specific thing. As for Pain Inverter, my alternate boss buff suggestion (giving bosses a permanent buff similar to Angelic Protection) would greatly reduce the power of Pain Inverter against bosses. I don't think that "hard" should mean "requires a Protection monk or a BHA ranger". -- Gordon Ecker 02:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * My whole point is, as long as pain inverter is around, it doesn't. --Xeeron 13:19, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

General - Tanking
This shouldnt work. why would an inteligent foe attack somthing whos only purpose is to be tough and take all the hits, surly an intelligent foe would want to kill the weakly armored thing that is killing all their allies like an ele. well mabe creatures like devourers might not have not have the intelligence to realise that this purson is taking the hits so the others can kill it unimpeded but all human foes and most demonic foes should simply switch to a much easier target to kill. Tarlok 13:44, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Realistically, a longbow should have a range of over 300 yards (assuming no obstructions) and fire much faster projectiles, while light spears should have a range of about 100 yards (javelins). It would be insane to run the length of two football fields, in armour, to get to some squishy cloth-wearer while you're being shot at by archers and chased by a guy with an axe. If they add realism to tanking, they should add realism to ranged attacks as well. -- Gordon Ecker 03:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * rofl &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090 (contribs). 03:27, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't forget how difficult it would be to be alongside three of you're friends swinging you're sword, which just so happens to be on fire, at a guy with a bigger sword and 3 of his friends and none of you accidently burn one of your mates faces off because you got a bit excited and swung the the chunk of fire you're holding a bit far and caught poor Koss's eye!.....(realism FTL!) -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 03:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Please...We don't want Oblivion Archers do we? I honestly don't want to watch a team Ranger spike me before I can see them... Gothica 01:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

/
Not that monsters skills can really be a balance issue, since you know what's coming and can build around them; the two in the topic, however, are very common, are very difficult to build around, and generally aren't fun. Snaring Web is constant when fighting against spiders; between all of the copies and the big AoE it ends up on everyone. You can't remove it, and it punishes *using skills* - you can build around it in as much as you can take more characters that don't need to use skills. But even that isn't fun, the backbone of the game is using your skills to overcome situations and encouraging c+space with no skill usage is not fun at all. Twisting Jaws isn't fun because it's this unstoppable 'bam, take a ton of damage' skill that instagibs players if a big enough mob uses it simultaneously. It knocks 220 health off of a character (120 lifesteal + DW), which would be ok, except that it doesn't even have an activation time. I have to wonder if that's a bug and if this was supposed to be an attack. As is, it's an unstoppable hit that frequently combines with another spell or attack to create huge chunks of damage that you can't prot against. I think either of these would be fine as isolated encounters, but having to deal with them in every encounter makes me avoid those zones entirely instead of having to slog through unstoppable, unfun monster skills. -Ensign 11:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think Snaring Web would be fixed if it were a hex, so we would be able to counter it, just as we counter most other things in the game. It would still be something hard to remove (given how easily it is to apply), but then it would become something we may deal with. Interrupting it is currently a possibility...But given how it's a group of enemies who cast it, interrupting all those enemies is very unlikely (and unlike the Onis, the spiders don't cast this skill all at the same time, so Cry of Frustration does not work). And Twisting Jaws...I didn't have any problem with this skill when I went through the Asuran lands, but then again I was using a very heavy anti-melee build. Maybe turning the skill into an attack, or increasing the recharge? Erasculio 14:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The only problem I had with Twisting Jaws was the double damage on the bosses (herohench don't preprot). But the activation time's an issue.  Make it a 0.75c touch so it's twitchable.  Snaring Web is irritating but I went through the game on a dervish first, so I wasn't really affected unless I wanted to refresh Melandru in the middle of the fight.  Could be terrible on casters, who are their skills.  If monsters wanna slow skill usage, just use Confusing Images or Arcane Conundrum, which you can at least HEV off or something. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Seef II.


 * Prot doesn't do anything against Twisting Jaws, the damage is lifesteal and it's just a skill, not an attack. It's just bam, damage and deepwound.  Prot can keep the mobs from doing anything else though. -Ensign 21:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah that was what I was referring to. That T-Rex boss is crazy, if I were in a human group I'd /roll to see who eats it and take the fight from there.  Thankfully the dinos will usually get only one, maybe two Twisting Jaws off in a regular fight. ~Seef II &lt;☎|→&gt; 09:09, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * My survivors are deathly afraid of dinosaurs due to Twising Fangs. I agree that an activation time would at least provide us the chance to interrupt it. Snaring Web I can live with. Sure it's annoying for a caster, but at least it can be interrupted. --Thervold 20:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I farmed up some Asura points on my necro last week and I'm now a twisting fangs hater, I don't play those zones unless I absolutely have to - and then I avoid those dinos like the plague. I fear hard mode there, QQ. --Tankity Tank 04:52, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Snaring Web and Twisting Jaws. Twisting Jaws is ridiculous. You get 3-4 dinosaurs 220 damage instant super nuke and you will score kills. The problem is PvE isn't designed to be deadly and the mechanisms for working off DP don't exist. I would reduce the skill to only causing bleeding+deep wound and make it either an attack or a 1c skill. Snaring web is just obnoxious, make it a hex or something. -Warskull 03:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed with Snarling Web. It just makes fighting spiders stupid and unfun, not more difficult. Twisting Jaws adds a nice difficulty though so I have nothing against it. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 22:31, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Twisting Jaws does not double from bosses, it's lifesteal, and bosses don't have doubled lifesteal. You were probably getting hit with Jaws and also power attack for your entire healthbar, which can be protted. And yes, Snaring web is the most fustrating skill ever, it's pretty much guarenteed to be on you the entire time, and there's no counter. --Ckal Ktak 14:12, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Heh, there's probably a link between those who mainly play casters vs those who play meleers, and those who find Snaring Web annoying vs those who find Twisting Jaws annoying. As a mainly War player, I don't find Snaring Web that bad. It slows down skill activation, but having an IAS reduces the impact somewhat; and I don't mind being crippled if I'm already in melee range. Conversely, I hate Twisting Jaws. Being right next to the dinos means I'm the one who generally gets targeted, and if they happen to get a good spike in, it's instagib time. -- 166.120.202.204 01:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

220 damage is 45% of 480 health. If you have 45%DP, you will be nearly automatically killed by one use of that brain fart.


 * it's not 220 damage, it's 120 lifesteal plus DW, which at 45% dp isn't 100 damage now is it? Not instant kill. --Ckal Ktak 18:38, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You are right. You are left with 91 health, which means the immediately following Chilling Victory will kill you. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:84.57.241.170 (talk).

I would also like to add onto this list "Wurm Bile". As it stands this skill is just stupidly overpowered in Frostmaw Burrows. A single cast of it does 800 damage in an AoE hex to multiple people. Its tricky to remove the damn thing because its usually covered up by Suffering. Its also making the dungeon very tedious with henchman because you have to spend almost all your time down there flagging henchman out to avoid them all getting hit by the same Bile.
 * This is powerful, but I have to disagree here. Unlike Twisting Jaws, this has very obvious counters. First, LoD spam already takes away a lot of its bite (and EVERYONE should be running LoD). Second, inspired and revealed hex can remove this from a whole party in a matter of seconds. So any prepared party should not have trouble. --Xeeron 09:43, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You can remove, interrupt, and LoD through wurm bile. It will hurt if you are unprepared but isn't the "LOL I GIVE YOU 15 DP" button that twisting fangs is. -Warskull 03:42, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It's powerful, it makes playing against wurms hard, I love it. <3 -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 22:31, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Just wondering. Did you guys intend to give a boss a mega range non-intteruptable skill that does up to 300 damage on impact and causes burning every 3 seconds? Done25 00:11, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes they did, use protective spirit and spread the hell out. --Ckal Ktak 09:51, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh noes they can damage me and other people at once...this boss is moderately difficult for the average person NERF!--The Gates Assassin 16:47, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Ursan Blessing vs Skill Ballance (Nerfs)
I am so mystified why a skill like "Mystic Regeneration" is limited to three enchants while the whole gw community is using Ursan Blessing to kill "i-know-how-to-use-my-skillbar-game-fun". UB really kills teamplay and skilluse and imho completely overrides good gameplay. --- Silverleaf 09:57, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The three norn elites are a jury-rigged solution to profession clutter and the negative impact of PvP skill balance on PvE viability. Have you got a better way to make assassins and ritualists competitive with elementalists, monks and Obsidian Flesh tanks? -- Gordon Ecker 10:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Your comment is not about skill-balance. And Assassins and Ritualists where big-time-nerfed at the most nasty way's. The totallity of skill-nerfs is keeping th game unbalanced. --- Silverleaf [[Image:User Silverleaf sig.png]] 13:48, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * My comment was about overall profession balance. Assassins and ritualists are extremely weak in high-end PvE, and monks and elementalists are extremely powerful. The Norn elites are overpowered, but every profession can use them, so it levels the playing field to a degree. It's not completely level, some professions get a lot more out of their primary attributes, and warriors, rangers and paragons benefit from better armour, but the power disparity is smaller. I don't like the situation, but I prefer three viable Assassin builds over no viable Assassin builds. I can't think of any alternatives that don't involve either adding new PvE skills or ruining PvP balance. -- Gordon Ecker 01:43, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, there you go. You don't much like it either. Profession Balance with the use of an overpowered skill. It kills player-game-skill imho. Many skills are "reduced in efficiancy" but are countered by others. Ursan Blessing kills creativity and skill-research and skill-use by players. This tends to become a never-ending-nerf of skills over all professions. But why bother skill balancing? All use Ursan Blessing these day's to conquer DoA, UW, HM. Nice, i use it too. No skill required. But what about the essence of a game. Ruined? --- Silverleaf [[Image:User Silverleaf sig.png]] 11:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's an article I think might be of interest to you. --71.229.204.25 11:18, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm extremely disappointed about the current state of PvE balance, and I really hope that ArenaNet can invest the resources necessary to either add profession-specific PvE skills to level the playing field and promoting diversity or retool all of the high-end areas to make them more fair to all professions. -- Gordon Ecker 11:48, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You can easily nerf ursan blessing to the ground and still not so much used classes in PvE have a way to compete. With raven blessing you can easily fill in any dmg slot in a regular balanced group without destroying gameplay for everyone else in the group like with ursan. Did all DoA hard mode parts with it with my ranger. Worked like a charm. Acceptance for this is pretty low though.
 * About PvE game balance. First of all you are wrong when you say elementalists are overpowered in pve. They lost that tilte the day Cry of Frustration was put in the game. And finaly ppl realize that. I see more and more elementalists beeing skipped for mesmers because those are better at the so important 2 and 3 sec aoe triggerhexes and have an open secondary class for hard rezzes (which profit a lot from fastcasting too). Mesmer Cry Teams can do DoA hard mode full runs in under 3h. Good luck trying that with elementalists.
 * Now what can be done for those other classes. First of all the question is if you accept tank&spank as the way high end pve is done. In the following i assume you do because removing tank&spank from game would either require a major AI update or giving all monsters shadowstep skills. So in tank&spank teams you have a tank spot which can be filled by warrior and dervish with ease. Assassins are or at least were able to tank with shadowform too (not up to date if that build was destroyed with one of the last patches, have to check that), but that was kind of suboptimal. Then there is the heal/prot spot. Here only monks are really viable. Ritualists miss barrier/bond on the prot side and spellbreaker, spamable heal party and seed (inferno snake protection) on the sb side. The BiP spot now is actually usable by other classes after the last update. A paragon could do very well here now. Only problem i see here would be a lack of rebirth in inferno. So you would need a ne/mo here to do the porting which means you miss out on damage. Last there are the damage spots. Here classes are most easily fit in and luckily most of the team slots are dmg slots. Mesmer (cry, esurge), Eles (cry, searing flames) and Necros (cry, ss, foc) fit in here naturally. Ritualists did fit in here quite good but since spirit rift is 2 sec activation again they have a hard time to compete.
 * IMHO one big mistake on ANET side was made with not enforcing a shutdown slot by making some of the tough healers in high end pve knock down immune (thus taking out meteor shower as the ultimate shutdown skill) and then instead of giving mesmers the by far best nuke in the game giving them some nice ranged aoe shutdown required to outdamage the now knockdown immune healers. That would have created a new slot in high end pve groups and left mesmers with a more mesmery role to fill in.
 * So who is at bottom in this high end PvE slot game.
 * Worst here is actually ranger because good tanking generally means blocking line of sight to your enemies. An easy fix to this would be to introduce a PvE skill (maybe call it phase arrows :o) that removes the line of sight requirement on bow attacks. That would make barrage a viable dmg alternative here.
 * Then there is the Assassin. This one is actually pretty tough. It could profit from the ranger phase arrow stuff as well as a crit barrager which is pretty effective. Other than that i don't see assassins do any damage in tank&spank groups. Another option would be to ease up the shadowform tanks to let them compete for the tank spot.
 * Paragons only were bad tanks before the last patch, but now they actually make excellent BiPs (apart from the lack of rebirth).
 * Ritualists will most likely never have the healing/prot flexibility to compete with monks, but they are very close to compete for a dmg slot. Spirit rift, an otherwise sucky skill due to 3 sec delay and very small area effect, just has a sign "made for tank&spank" attached to it. Only problem here is its 2 sec activation. I would return it to 1 sec and stop listening to those whiners who could not move out of adjacent range in 3 seconds.
 * And while we are at it, make ritualist primary attribute useful so that n/rt are no longer the better ritualists. Easy fix would be to give spawning power a % increase in healing and maybe armor penetration on nukes and nerf ritu heals and nukes accordingly. Beetlejuice 14:54, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Ursan Blessing
Could you ask Izzy if there are any plans to nerf it (asking you to as he seems to not read the wiki any more)? Its game-breaking overpowered atm. Here's pretty much why:
 * Massive damage output (Ursan Strike, Rage and Roar)
 * Great at easing the damage other party members take (knockdowns and weakness)
 * Dramaticly increases survivability on the character using it (+20 armor and 200 health)
 * Very few counters found in PvE (E-denial being the only one)
 * With no counters, there is no reason to ever change your build


 * Able to have a second skillbar (bolded because people really don't get how useful it can be for somebody to have two bars)

Here's the main problems its overpoweredness causes:
 * Promotes brainlessness (I AM PRESSING 1, 2, 3 AND 4 RANDOMLY!)
 * Takes away the skill > time stance and replaces it with time > skill (title grind)
 * Makes nearly all PvE titles, armors, weapons, HoM monuments etc. less prestigious (bad players easily destroying DoA, wtf?)
 * This also ruins the economy on nearly all prestige items (exception being items not gained in PvE)

The argument of "Don't like it? Don't use it" doesn't have any valid point to it seeing as though other people using it still affects me, even if I don't use it.

To the other people reading this: lets not turn this into a flame war. At the same time try to only post logical arguments. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 02:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Btw, feel free to add some if I am missing any. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 02:44, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I see a lot of warriors and paragons running around with Ursan now. Was interesting when they brought out GWEN, something new, but now its common place.  I think a lot of the GWEN's title track skills are unbalancing things.  I use Pain Inverter now on every boss and game-boss and things seem so much easier.  Ursan seems over-powered and over-used but thats up to the individual player really.  I still hold firm that some, if not a few, Gwen's title track skills are unbalancing things. House Of Furyan 05:32, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem with nerfing Ursan Blessing is that some professions (such as assassin) don't have any viable alternatives. I agree that it's overpowered, but I don't think that they should nerf it until after every profession has a viable, PUG-friendly build for every high-end area. -- Gordon Ecker 06:08, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * MS/DB spam = insane damage in PvE. Assassins are viable. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 06:58, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's just a sad case of power creep when they introduced those PvE-only skills and those PvE-only items, so they're forced to up the difficulty of high-end areas, which in turn makes the standard skills much less useful compared to the PvE-only ones. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png| ]] 07:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Everything already has its place in high-end PvE. Monks are monks, rangers interrupt and spread degen, warriors frontline, assassins do MS/DB, dervs whack things with scythes in god mode (your pick of which god mode you want), eles either bsurge or AoE, mesmers have Cry of Pain, necros curse or MM, paragons bring godmode, rits support. (If those links don't work, take a look under great working PvE builds.) -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 07:58, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Why don't you take the skills discussion over to Izzy's page. - elviondale  (tahlk) 13:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * worst question today? thats like a one way conversation with a wall --Cursed Angel [[Image:User Cursed Angel Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 13:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * So instead of discussing skills and generally flaming about whats nerfed and what needs to be on a place where its encouraged to a degree, we need to discuss it on anet CR's talk page? Think about it a little - elviondale  (tahlk) 22:44, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If you look at the top line, you'll see that I am asking Gaile to ask Izzy, as Izzy doesn't seem to read the wiki anymore. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 00:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thats cool, I'm talking about the comments discussing what is overpowered and what isn't following your initial request. - elviondale  (tahlk) 02:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Why bother stating/asking something if you don't explain why? &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 03:25, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad someone took the effort to post PvXwiki links here the other half of the problem with guildwars PvE at the moment with a system that would vet a ham and cheese sandwich, while tasty, 5/5 general PvE. To that poster...you do of course realize that copy/pasting builds, unless they are mindlessly simple, still does not improve player skill...I hope. Being a good player is, has, and always will be more about your overall knowledge of the game rather than the bar you run at least 80/20. To those who forego copy/paste-wars and experiment on your own, you have my admiration. There is not a single class in GW that can't find 1 slot in an elite mission party. The problem is the current 1-dimensionality of PuG cookiecutters and the general unwillingness to experiment with ideas unless they come from the horses mouth at PvX. In comes Ursanway, absolutely no creativity or skill involved you only need 1/8 skillbar to function at 100% efficiency once you grind allegiance. The only people arguably working in that setup are the monks and for an experienced player even that role is trivial at best. To ANET, if you really wanted "IDDQD" then why not just allow us console commands so we can enter that instead and not waste our elite slot? Hopefully all this has gotten across the sense of general frustration I and I'm sure others feel at the dumbing down of the game. 67.191.245.177 22:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I would like to point out how your four effect points are null in my opinion. Keep in mind that I am presenting my opinion to you respectfully, and I do not want to start a flame war. These are my opinions. I welcome commentary and critique on these. The only one up for possible debate is the fourth one, but unless anyone here is a trained economy analyst... I don't think it's worth the flaming to debate.
 * Promotes brainlessness (I AM PRESSING 1, 2, 3 AND 4 RANDOMLY!)
 * No offense, but nearly half of the builds out there today are simple 1-2-3-4 combos. For all intents and purposes, Ursan blessing is a build, since it changes your bar. It does not 'promote brainlessness'. That statement is gross exaggeration.


 * Takes away the skill > time stance and replaces it with time > skill (title grind)
 * I'm assuming you mean that people now want to get things done quicker. Yes. Instant gratification is rampant these days, but come on! This is a game. Now, I know you said don't use the "if you dont like it don't use it" response, but here... it fits. There are still alternatives to using Ursan. If you value skill over time spent in the mission, use the tried and true methods.


 * Makes nearly all PvE titles, armors, weapons, HoM monuments etc. less prestigious (bad players easily destroying DoA, wtf?)
 * Unfortunately, this is true. But it is not the sole fault of Ursan. Many changes would have to be made to fix this. Weapons are overfarmed, armors are easily gotten, titles are ground. HOWEVER... see my above statement for the DoA accusation.
 * This also ruins the economy on nearly all prestige items (exception being items not gained in PvE)
 * Again... I would say the same. But getting into the dark abyss of game economics.... ugh. No thanks. I have no professional background to be able to even begin to know what I'm talking about there. I will not comment on that, except that with the way you put it, I do not believe Ursan is responsible for "ruining the economy on nearly all prestige items".

That is all. :) -- Counciler 02:38, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * How well does MS/DB spam work against Rage Titans? What about against Mallyx? I don't think I've even seen "GLF MS/DB spammer" in Urgoz's Warren, The Deep, Gate of Anguish, Umbral Grotto or anywhere else. -- Gordon Ecker 02:51, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * For the record I would not run MS/DB in upper level content, assassins don't have the survivability even with critical defenses up and there are simply too many things going on because of the total abadonment of the former "less is more" philosophy of Guild Wars. Critical Barrage immediately comes to mind and could easily sub Urgoz as well as Slavers Exile.  GoA I ran a critical scythe build and ripped it to shreds with hero/hench easily getting masters.  The Deep would be tricky, because you can't out damage an ele but you might be able to sub in as a recall with a generous group.  The DoA is unique because of its absolutely over the top difficulty but again...if you did it in normal mode and had a generous group you could run A/R with support spirits and use crit barrage.  There is a reasonable way to make 1 slot open in any setup its just hard to find reasonable players. 67.191.245.177 03:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The three Norn elite skills are not an ideal solution, they aren't even remotely close to ideal, but they are a still a working solution, and until ArenaNet can implement a better solution (which could take a while since they're busy on Guild Wars 2), I think they should stay viable. As for the Domain of Anguish, critical barragers are dependant on enchantments to compete with R/X barragers, and an R/Rt can bring better spirits. I don't see why it would be "unreasonable" to prefer better team setups whenever possible, that's the problem, the game balance is set up in such a way that it's reasonable to avoid inviting certain professions in high-end areas whenever possible. -- Gordon Ecker 03:58, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * My point was unreasonable =/= impossible, but yes we agree otherwise these areas are tailor made to favor the holy trinity with minor embellishments such as the occasional ranger to the almost complete exclusion of all others. Slaver's Exile in many ways affirms this convention and repudiates it, where you have Elite level content capable of being done entirely by 2 players (I would argue any profession) and 6 heroes.  If the upper end of the game was tailored more like this there would be fewer complaints of being "left out" but thats just my $.02. 67.191.245.177 05:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I hate the age old "they ruined the economy" statement, I have heard it so many times now I have lost count. It's not ruined, it is just changed. The people who use it, probably lost some money in the change, but I doubt it means they are now penniless. It is so easy to make money it seems with this Ursan thing anyway. There is always a build or a method of making money quickly, this is nothing new by any means. -- Lemming [[Image:User Lemming64 sigicon.png]] 04:05, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with Lemming, and that it's easier to acquire money / crafting materials / item sets now even for the most casual of gamers (who have purchased EotN). Maybe those ones that actually think that the economy is ruined are the gajillionaires. Renin 04:13, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Ditto. I have about 900 hours logged, and I have about 200k in cash at the moment. The most I've ever had is 260k, right before splurging on a set of Vabbian armour. Despite this talk about the economy being ruined, I still see armbraces of truth selling for 100k plus 30-40 ectos, which at 5k per ecto is about 175k. If that counts as ruined, I wonder what giddy heights the pre-ruin price would have been. -- Hong 04:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Considering there was a point in time where 1 (ONE) titan gemstone sold for well in excess of 100k its not hard to figure out that braces were going strong at 1-1.5mil rather than the current 225-250k and not 175k pricetag. Then again this was also when ecto was selling for 9-10k a pop.  The sticking point with braces in particular and therefore the "economy" since they were the most expensive conventional item is the duping scandal but we don't need to reopen that old wound again. 67.191.245.177 05:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I fail to see why I should be distressed that armbraces now cost 250k as opposed to 1 million. (And no, I don't use UB, and never have. I think it's cheesy as well, but I also don't consider it a problem worth worrying that much about.) -- Hong 10:11, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Those who are distressed are actually the people who bought their titans for 100k and feel really irked by how much the price went down. Them and other gajillionaires. I like prices going down, that means more casual players get to own whatever vanity equips/minis they want! Power to the casual people! Renin 10:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "Considering there was a point in time where 1 (ONE) titan gemstone sold for well in excess of 100k its not hard to figure out that braces were going strong at 1-1.5mil rather than the current 225-250k and not 175k pricetag." And since then Hard Mode came out and time has passed. People seem to hate that as time passes an items value will decress as long as it stays attainable.  As far as Ursan Blessing goes, it is greatly needed.  I find the skill boring and never use it but a lot of people do have fun with it as well as it helps players, who got the title track up, complete areas they have trouble with as well as get in teams with other people.  The game is ment to be played by all and enjoyed particually now with the transistion between GW to GW2 as well with all the limitation in the game now that did not used to be there. It is helping people play areas they couldn't enjoy before and nobody is forced to use it as it remains their choice to put it on their bar.  You're not forced into using it if you can farm/clear an area faster with it. It's also your choice to use it to get on a team that is looking for people with it.  ~ [[Image:UserSabastian sig.gif|User:Sabastian]]  Sabastian  08:54, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Which are the only teams forming now, because they're all terrible players who can't get better at the game. That is Ursan Blessing's biggest drawback - it keeps bad players bad.
 * The biggest problem with ursan is that it is simply overpowered. I know ArenaNet has some serious trouble grasping this "balance" concept, but check it out; a single skill that gives you five other skills, four of which aren't the least bit weak? Entire professions can't even offer that in PvE.
 * Elite areas? I remember back when DoA came out. I faintly remember it being an "elite mission." In fact, when you load into DoA, does it not say... "elite mission?" Last I checked, "elite" wasn't synonymous with "bad players who don't know how to actually play the game, nor who can think to bring a direct counter to what their opponent is going to bring, because the opponent cannot possibly change builds." I mean, seriously? How do people lose? You know what is going to spawn, where it's going to spawn, and what skills it will use (and in most cases, on which targets). You can check the wiki (or guru or gwo) for skill lists to show you everything you can use. Since the AI isn't going to swap it up and juke you out... what excuse do you have for failure? :/
 * ArenaNet failed pretty terribly at DoA design, I will admit. They didn't try to make the game harder by adding any kind of a skill requirement, they just bumped up the numbers, gave everything IAS/fastcast/higher level and called it a day. Stupid on their part, but it's still not impossible to beat. Again, the monsters aren't going to surprise you by bringing anything other than what they have. Spec against it and... surprise, you win!
 * Bad players being required to run bad builds aside (as none of those idiots would ever get past foundry or veil if it weren't for Ursan), Ursan Blessing is stupid in that it should never have happened. No skill should ever be so ungodly powerful that any profession can bring just it and outpower the vast majority of melee players in the game. No non-profession-linked skill should ever be a powerhouse. It simply undermines the point of... oh, right, a team game - not to mention the entire concept of "professions."
 * In all fairness, Assassins and mesmers are, hands down, the most useless classes in the game for high-end PvE. SMS managed to beat DoA with them anyway, but that just showed us how useless they really are. Moebius Deathblossom is good DPS... against armors in isle of nameless. Against creatures with aegis, lightning reflexes, an unlimited supply of eruption, Dust Cloak and blurred vision, your moeb sin will be doing nothing. Pretending otherwise just shows that you've never actually tried it. Mesmers simply can't perform on par with... anything else, really. Necros have SS, eles have met shower and MB/RI, both have great energy management (SR and gole)... mesmers, outside of not having as great energy management, have no elites that are remotely useful (expel isn't bad, but... it is if you're trying to do damage). Mesmers are built for single-target shutdown. If ArenaNet wanted to buff mesmer usage, ArenaNet should have given a 5e 8r AoE interrupt spell (or an AoE migraine). Instead they gave us... mild energy denial, which is hysterical considering it doesn't affect PvE enemies in the least, and Cry of Pain, a "nuke" spell that isn't nearly as efficient as SS or MBRI... and seeing as those are the competition in the nuker market, ANet should have at least tried to make it a tad more powerful than either.
 * The rest are fine. Warriors get dslash/SY and probably the highest reliable DPS, dervs get eternal aura and god-form, eles and necros nuke, monks do what monks do, rangers barrage (not as effective as nuking, but they pack interrupts; you can usually get into a group as a ranger), rits get stuff like ancestors rage/splinter and the entire restoration line... and of course, paragons get party-wide invincibility. None of them are really bad choices, and none seriously lack in a balanced team.
 * That aside, anything that matches the damage of a warrior but adds shout-range weakness and aoe knockdown in a single skill is overpowered. And if you can't comprehend how powerful that whole "second skill bar" thing is, you have some reading to do.
 * In conclusion, the flaws in this skill are two-pronged. One, it was geared to promote Grind of the North; if the only way into pugs is with ursan, it looks like you've got to go buy the expansion now! Two, as already discussed, nothing should be universal; nothing should work (let alone be patently overpowered) on all professions. You decided to make a mesmer when you created the character; your having trouble dealing with your decision isn't the game's fault. You picked poorly, deal with it; last I checked, you have more than one character slot. - Auron 09:57, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh you are so wrong about mesmers beeing useless and cry of pain beeing bad. Cry of pain is maybe the only skill more overpowered than UB. Cry brings about 3 times the dmg per cast an elementalist could bring (considering hard mode stuff has armor like mad and cry just ignores it) in 1/4 sec (or even less for a mesmer :o). If you ever saw a cry spike in DoA hard mode you know what i am talking about. If you want fast (non ursan) DoA runs you bring 4 mesmers for damage. If you can't get them you pack cry on Elementalists and Necros as much as possible and hope you have at least one mesmer to supply those long casting aoe mesmer hexes. But more about that in the original Ursan chapter above.Beetlejuice 20:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression Spiteful Spirit did armor-ignoring damage too. And uh... elementalists with a decent lb rank (5 or higher) still do hundreds per nuke. And they hit multiple targets and damage each time - no conditions to meet (like a pre-req mesmer hex). Mesmers suck because they can't fit the utility onto damage as well as elementalists or necros. Met shower is AoE KD x3; that kind of disruption is unimaginably good, especially against *huge* mobs like the gloom one (on top of the fact it does 100+ damage per wave, to each monster). In the area is nice AoE on cry, but it's got a pretty hefty recharge and the energy isn't amazing - and it's conditional as hell. Cry is slightly overpowered, but it's too conditional to be better than stuff like SY. Add that onto Cry being the only skill worth bringing... and you've got an underpowered class.
 * SMS did DoA with mesmers. Aside from caster damage being unreliable from the start (SMS prefers melee to deal damage; more reliable and generally higher dps), mesmers really didn't add anything. Their energy was too flimsy to add a ton of utility stuff in like GDW and Finish Him. After you hit the cap on PvE skills, you've got a ton of optional spaces and nothing to bring; phantasm to trigger Cry, 2 other pve skills... and stuff. You could squeeze in three e-management skills (and you pretty much have to unless you go secondary ele with gole), but then you're still doing less than the average necro or ele. Lose-lose situation. - Auron 13:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

If you want to know how to do DoA hard mode without ursan as ANY class read my comment above in the original UB section of this page. There is really no reason for ursan to exist other than ruining the game. The problem is with norn rank10/lb8 getting more and more common the true power of ub comes out. With capped out ranks you can do fast hard mode runs without the loot drop penalties of tank&spank teams. And the "don't like it, don't play it" argument is none, i have no choice. With it being easier, faster to assemble and more profitable, on the long run you won't ever find a balanced group for PvE again. Its already extremely hard now. And it is definitively ruining the game economy. UB runs are always fast (you really can't mess up and loose much time in this build), have better drops because of non aoe kills and even the worst players can participate successfully. Which means bad players pre ursan had to stick with normal mode, had to spend quite some time with trial and failure (and in this process hopefully learning something becoming average->good players) and eventualy conquered one part of DoA after quite some time, granting them one gem. Now they slap on UB and do a full run with guaranteed success, generating 1+2+3+4=10 gems plus the increased drop rates (double that again for hard mode). And since a lot of players in GW are bad players that has a huge impact. And if you can't see having 10 times the gems per time frame generated with UB than you would have without having a negative impact on game economy then you really must be mentally challanged. Beetlejuice 20:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see any problem with nerfing it down to the level of Raven Blessing and Volfen Blessing, or even nerfing all three Norn elites a bit, but I think that a party consisting of nothing but players using norn elites and hero healers needs to stay viable in all high-end areas until there's some other way to make every profession an asset rather than a burden in all high-end areas. -- Gordon Ecker 06:08, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Nerf for use.
 * Just kill it, I'm bored now, counter a nerf of this with a buff other other PvE skills, like the cruddy ones (I'm looking at ear bite here). --Ckal Ktak 15:05, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem is that some professions aren't even remotely viable in these high end areas. Ursan Blessing alleviates this to an extent.  I agree with Gordon that it is not an ideal solution.  If there was an efficient build that would work in PuGs as an assassin, I'd use that over Ursan any day.  There is not, so I am limited to Ursan.  Fix class balance in these high end areas (which will never happen due to pvp), and you can nerf Ursan.  Otherwise, leave it alone and let us ALL enjoy these areas on the characters we enjoy, not on the ones we may not enjoy playing because our preferred characters haven't been given viable ways to contribute. --Kalas Silvern 04:09, 15 April 2008 (UTC)