Talk:Fort Aspenwood/Archive2

Unbalanced teams
After the recent update nerfing HFFF and the shortening of gods vengence in fort aspenwood it appears that this competitive mission has been effectively ruined. One need only visit the kurzick side and luxon side (and play each team for a few days) to see how bad things are one sided to the kurzicks. Problem 1) Wait times on the kurzick side are excessive, and no one is playing as a luxon. Problem 2) Due to excessive losses there are an abundance of luxon leechers and ditchers (typically 2 per match). I have kept a log of every match I've played in the last 48 hours as a luxon. Its shows 32 losses, and 5 wins. This Fort aspenwood update needs to be fixed asap. -ObsidianParadox 13:40, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I recently played both (although I'm mainly a Kurzick player) and I'd actually say its because there are so many leechers on the Luxon side that it's become so hard to do it with Luxons, and considering I still managed to win with 3 leechers I'd say its more or less balenced now.Mortsu 18:11, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

fort aspenwood just is unfair for luxon, even without leechers, if kurzick has any brains they win (though a lux win gives more facts.

Faction Rewards
They should really buff Faction Rewards for PvP events even now that the faction is increased its still very puny on Kurz side we only get 1600 for a win when its dubble rewards thats like 1 AB match and the time it take to play is not that big a differ. Rewards should be atleast at the same rate as FFF wich is 400 ever 2 min imo.--213.100.146.85 11:25, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

If everything was as fast as FFF, then faction would just skyrocket lol, and new guilds/alliances would never be able to get an outpost. FFF may get faction fast, but it isnt that fun (unlike AB or FA) and if FA generated that much faction then everyone would QQ because their new guilds can't get enough faction.Crimmastermind 08:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Forget comparing these to FFF! This is utter bull crap. 400 to 800 factions? In fact don't compare these to anything else if you want to make an argument to upgrade the factions reward. This just need an upgrade on the rewards. Doing anything else is more rewarding and entertaining then these.--ShadowFog 02:53, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * FA cant give as much faction as FFF because that would make getting that faction fun, and actually add in an amount of skill to getting faction. Cant have that happening.--Ryudo 20:39, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected, and will happily eat my words for a late night snack.--Ryudo 07:35, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Anet Officially Pledges Allegiance to Kurzicks
BOOM. I estimate the timer at about 10 minutes. Still think this is biased toward Luxons, anyone? Anyway, I have seen 2 emerging Kurzick strategies:
 * 1.Get all players to get amber at the beginning, then hide in green for the WHOLE GAME.
 * 2.Continually get the back command points and such to delay Luxons until the timer runs out.

Ironically, the only thing I've really seen that can, on most occasions, counter most strategies is a TOUCHER. Yes. However, I have realized that despite the hatred exhibited toward them, this is in fact the best option for the Luxons. I've also noticed guild teams of monks sync entering Kurzick side. Blech. Anyway, I have just 1 suggestion that may seem crazy, but, after what Anet has done to "balance" the arena, it's not that bad. Ok, I have a few suggestions:
 * 1.Remove side mines. This was the "crazy" one. But it would prevent the "let's hide forever in green" strategy.
 * 2.Add more (different) NPCs to turtle squads, including a monk.
 * 3.Same above for mines.
 * 4.Make Command Points spawn turtles faster and have more defense.

Note that I am making these suggestions as a neutral player (in fact, I'm more Kurzick than Luxon), but I know when too much is too much. --Gah The  Epic  23:48, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, another thing I forgot to add: increasingly popular are Kurzick Healing Bots, they just stand behind green spamming healing spells on Gunther for the whole game. Just tossing that out there. --Gah The  Epic  21:33, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Not really. I tested out the Kurzick side, and it was still pretty difficult to defend against the Luxon assault. Even attacking, it was fairly simple to breach the gates and kill off Gunther. --[[Image:User Wandering Traveler Oie User Wandering Traveler Sig2.png|19px]]  Wandering   Traveler  03:59, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Aye. Most games where the luxons won, the did it without need for that extra 5 min.  Really, if your going to on luxon side, your probably going to do it pretty quickly, unless kurz gets leavers or something.  If anything, this encourages luxons to have a bit more haste.  You still have very powerful long range AoE npcs, guarded by 4 warriors with hammers, that can cause weakness, and easily chain KD on runners.  Plus, luxon side starts with all the mines at start.--Ryudo 05:00, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Have to agree that Kurzicks have it too easy. Get bonders and healers on their side and Luxons will not win. Then you have Rangers hitting from base that we cant touch cause they are out of range but yet can interrupt the turtle. And since they are out of range for players but can reach the turtle thanks to bow range, they keep the turtle at bay so it can't advance and ultimately killing it; meanwhile, the kurzick npc's do their job when you approach. I have played both sides and Kurzicks have it too easy. Sometimes Kurzicks lose because, I repeat, because peeps were not healers/bonders. Sure, some of you will bring up the "remove enchantment" crap but that don't mean jack against an all healer team...been on both sides experiencing that. Fun for the Kurzicks cause you get a free win since the time starts right away. Not so fun for the Luxons since you have to kill Gunther but can't get past the first gate.

I came across several Kurzick teams (in a row mind you) that had 7 healers...that's right, you heard me...7 healers. 3 on one gate and 4 on the other >>> healing/bonding npc galore. Don't need to tell you how that match ended (if you know the answer then that tells you the game is unbalanced). Game is unbalanced when the Kurzicks never have to leave base to cap mines to win when all they have to do is heal/bond the npcs. Makes the mines pointless if the Kurz can win without them. Kurz get the win when timer runs out so of course they bring healers to defend. Hell, a Kurz can stand at the top/front of the base and have a bonder/healer on him and the turtle cant reach him so the turtle will never move. To address the Well of the Profane approach, sure it works right away when you have a dead body but that don't stop healing. When at least 2 healers are on the npc...you may as well not even try. I use a Necro with the Lingering Curse / Well of the Profane setup and still cant get by a bonded npc just because 2 healers/bonders are on each outer gate. To be fair, Lingering Curse has a whopping 25 cost so it cant be used frequently.

Here is the clincher: A healer can spot the turtle as it uses the attack and since it has a 3 sec cast, it gives the healer time to target the npc for the bond or protective spirit (the one with the fraction cast time and 5 sec recharge...haha). Haha, sure its fun when I'm a Kurz monk doing this with a fellow healer cause you ain't never getting through (fun cause my team never has to leave base to win since the timer is on Kurz side, haha) but when I'm a Lux...it sux, is very frustrating and you get a lot of rage quits because we can't reach Gunther to kill him.

Another thing I don't get is if / when a turtle resurrects, I have to go all the way the fk back to it just to tell it to go to where I was. It should be an automatic advance once the timer starts. You can have it so the Kurz can leave base this way so if the Kurz kill a commander, the Lux have to relay orders to the commander again. If the commander was never killed then the turtle should advance automatically.

There is still a bug when warriors wont go after players when around a corner (especially on that little bridge just outside the gate. A Kurz player can stand on the bridge to hit the turtle and the warriors wont attack. So when the turtle dies, it will not resurrect until all warriors associated with that turtle dies. So a warrior npc will stay there and that makes the Lux a turtle short. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Gw376.jpg . Notice it had just announced the 50% mark and still no turtle. Notice the warrior never moves and the Kurz left him alive to ensure that we only have one turtle. The Kurz know it and take advantage of this bug.  I say the turtles resurrect regardless if the warriors are alive. When the turtle resurrects, it come with its standard amount of warriors and keeps alive whatever warriors were around.65.191.140.208 13:52, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Like I said before, I'm not biased toward either side, I play Kurzick because they win more. Why? Because it's sooo easy. I've met some top-notch Luxon players, but all we have to do is have even just one monk, and it's practically impossible to lose! I'm opposed to all the bonder and botting stuff, even though I'm a Kurzick. I want to actually go out there and PLAY the round. It gets tiring sitting inside a gate all the time, bonders make it boring for everyone. And now there's a 10 minute timer instead of 15. Please, ANet, at least increase the timer back to 15 so Luxons have a fighting chance. --Gah The  Epic  01:41, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Well after playing both sides I think I have a pretty good idea on what the new issues are and what can be done to fix them. On Kurz side I have YET to lose once, I have won every game most with a great deal of room to spare. On Luxon side the only times I get a win is if the Kurz team lacks bonders or plays terribly. Even then the Luxon team has to be great and wins with seconds to spare. The only fast Luxon win I've had yet was when the Kurz side had three people quit, one of which was a bonder. This is a serious imbalance, and is ruining the game for those that choose to play Luxon.

Now the solution isn't too big and involves making Turtles useful again. As it stands turtles are easily dealt with by stalling via standing in unreachable locations, interrupting their shots, killing through degen, or simply casting protective spirit on the turtles target. Fixing the LOS exploits are incredibly important and must be done to have any claim of balance at all, if a target can not be hit then the turtle should ignore it and move forward. The long wait between shellings is primarily responsible for the ease of using Prot spirit and interrupting the shot all together. This could be solved in two ways, either cut the recast timer in half to make it harder to interrupt or add a second similar attack. The second attack would be on it's own recast and make it much harder for a single ranger to stall the turtle indefinitely. These changes are in my opinion the most important and fair.

However I also think that the bodyguard group of the Turtle needs adjustment as well. Replace two of the warriors with a caster and a monk. The monk will function just like the priests protecting the commander with the addition of casting Draw Conditions. This means that in order to apply heavy degen to kill the turtle you must either directly kill the monk or let the monk kill itself by drawing the conditions from the turtle first. The second replacement should be a caster of some sort capable of striking Kurz players stalling by hiding and carrying an enchant strip of their own to help counter bonders. This change isn't quite as fair as the turtle, but I believe 100% it would lead to a balanced game.

As it stands something absolutely has to be done, Luxon side is nearly unplayable due to the overwhelming Kurz advantages.--66.82.9.82 02:00, 23 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with diversity with just warriors with the turtle. Put some casters with the turtle. Here is the BIG one: the turtle siege attack needs more additional functions, one of which >>> remove enchantments. I'm tired of bringing a character that has enchantment removal. I want to use a Paragon, Warrior, Dervish or Ranger sometime but that wont do any good based on the current game needing goddam enchantment removals. I'm not biased either but dam, I know when the game is unbalanced.  I want to increase my Lux title but, guess what? Hmm, I wonder.


 * The case of Ranger interrupts on the turtle is so fucking ridiculous. Takes too long to cast the siege attack. What's the point of having the skill if it can never use it? One Ranger on a turtle should not be able to incapacitate it and eventually kill it. That skill needs to have an inherent buffer each time it gets interrupted. Each time it gets interrupted, either: (A) make the cast time shorter every time it gets interrupted or (B) make it harder to interrupt each time. For (A): once it gets interrupted, the cast time is reduced by .5 for each interrupt. For (B) it takes more attempts to interrupt the attack but still uses the 3 sec cast. Either way, it gets harder to interrupt. Kuunavang has a type of interrupt buffer. Kuunavang is just hard to interrupt period. For the turtle, making it hard to interrupt forces the Kurz to consider strategy. Either interrupt the skill now, later or not interrupt it at all.


 * I do not have a problem with the time cut down. I prefer to have a low timer as long as the map is balanced. The timer can be 1 hour or 1 minute but it wont do any good if the map is in favor of the kurz. When that timer starts, it already counts down in favor of the Kurz and the Kurz don't have to do anything for it to move.


 * Another problem is associated with the mines. If the Kurz can win without the mines then the mines have to do something for the Lux that would force the Kurz to leave base. The Kurz take control then that repairs their gates, speeds the timer and cuts off our spawn point. The Lux take control, maybe something like this:
 * Green Mine > Luxon Damage increased by 25%.
 * Purple Mine > Luxon Attack speed increased by 25%.
 * Orange Mine > Luxon Cast time reduced by 50%
 * Purple Command Post > Luxon Run speed increased by 25%
 * Orange Command Post > Luxon Recharge reduced by by 50%
 * Test it then maybe see if the Kurz need additional points from amber to balance it. The mines and command posts are way too easy to capture from the Lux. If the Kurz do decide to leave base, they can slaughter the mines and command posts.  That just gives the Lux more work to do all the while the timer counts down in the Kurz favor.  WTF!  It's like the Lux are damned if they and damned if the dont.  Let me put this in perspective. The Lux have one goal: to kill Gunther. I take that back. They have 2 goals keep the turtle alive. No wait, they have 3 goals. Keep control of the mines. The mines give a closer spawn point and prevents the Kurz from replacing gates. Some of you new guys will argue to ignore the mines and press forward. Hate to break it to you but the mines under Kurz control offer a great stall (due to repairing gates) for the turtle and decides the Lux spawn point. If you ignore the mines then you will find yourself spawning from the start point and its a long walk to the first gate. If you are a Kurz, you know what I'm talking about and that puts the pressure on the Lux; meanwhile, the timer counts down in favor of the Kurz for an automatic win (haha).  If, if I (lux) get to the second gate, I look on my mini-map and I see all the control points have now been captured. WTF! Now I'm stuck between 2 gates and the Kurz have us in a choke point. Well, goddam, does it ever end with the Kurz unbalance? Dam, do you have to make it that easy for peeps to take control of Lux property? Anet put Rangers on Lux mines but don't give them an interrupt? Hmmm...


 * I am all about balance and fun. Seems like its more work than fun and I work enough through the weekdays. I shouldn't know the outcome before I enter a battlefield but I know Fort Aspenwood is in favor of the Kurz so I don't play Lux anymore (or this map anymore). It's the same ole' thing over and over. The Kurz dont have to do anything and the timer will give them the win...wtf?  The Lux have to go to the Kurz so offense is needed. The Kurz wait for the Lux so defense is needed. To be ironically fair to the Kurz, if it aint broke don't fix it (bonding) meaning why use anything else if healing/bonding is doing just fine ftw. Healers in general are just unbalanced (instead of being self-sufficient you have to rely on another class to survive).  You don't go into the Hall of Heroes without needing healers...that would just be plain stupid unless you are IWAY.  Common fuckin sense tells you that that kind of setup is unbalanced.  Same thing goes for Fort Aspenwood.  If one side has the healers (as well as offensive npc's) and the other does not have healers...how do think it was going to end?  Healers won't do any good for Lux anyway since Lux need offense and the Lux healer doesn't matter if they cant get past bonders. Sure, the Lux healer can keep the turtle alive but that wont do any good if the turtle gets interrupted and the turtle still can't do jack against a bonded npc.  All the healer Lux is doing is keeping the turtle alive for a longer stall...go figure.  If, just if, you make it to Gunther, the Kurz healers can heal / bond Gunther the whole time and win that way.  I made it to Gunther at about the 25% mark with both turtles on a few occasions (I believe Kurz had 2-3 monks) and killed the 2 monk bosses (of course the Kurz let us since Gunther is priority).  Since Luxons are at Kurz spawn point (near the bosses), if we do kill the monks (they will die on purpose once low on energy), they can run to Gunther in a matter of seconds for another quick heal / bond since they have full energy (yet I have to run all the way the fuck back to the turtle command post just to tell it to go where I was...hmm).  Needless to say, the Kurz won and kept Gunther alive for the remaining 75%.  Just in case you didn't read it correctly, we had both turtles.


 * You don't really get the full impact of the unbalance issue until you play both sides. I noticed the entry for the mission is less now. Before the update, you could never enter because of the unbalance issues.  After the update, you could enter quick because peeps want to see what changed. Now, less Lux people are joining due to the unbalance issues and takes about 3 cycles to get an entry. Kurz side is full of peeps waiting to enter (and why not with the 5 min reduction since it makes it that much easier ftw) while the Lux side has only a few. Once they enter, Lux peeps leave as soon as they see bonders on the gates and I don't blame them.  I have to admit, I am one of those players that leave and I'm using my Mesmer running the Shatter Storm build.  I would rather take the dishonorable status than have to go through that aggravation...65.191.140.208 14:41, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I had the same experience before, but we defeated the gates in 1:30 minutes but when we got to Gunther, the Kurzicks had at least 4 monks with Spell Breaker builds and for lols and irony, our team was completely Spell casters so it was a borefest from then on, we kill one monk and that same monk spawns(with full energy) to bother again, and no we did not win. For turtle issues, it's easy to remedy with it, here are some examples(meaning there are other ways too and I dont give a fuck if you dont like it and wont discuss it in this header, create another please): As a Paragon bring Song of Concentration, Ritualist have Displacement with Signet of Binding and other weapon spells and for Monks are the obvious Guardian. I agree on the timer part, it's too low for it's own good and it encourages leechers. For anyone that has played Team Fortress 2, there's a concept in that game we can adapt, some kind of award extra time system that won't extend much.--ShadowFog 15:12, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I sometimes use a Paragon with Song of Concentration but alas that even fails when the turtle can't damage a bonded / protected npc; so, that forces me off my Paragon and back on an enchantment remover. I can't have any diversity and its not fun to lose.  Same ole thing over and over.  That spawn point is too close to the bosses and that gives them an unlimited energy supply. Kurzick healers / bonders = gg.65.191.140.208 15:21, 25 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I've tried it before like that when running a turtle bonder. Sure it helps sometimes, but when the ranger stands in a place the turtle can't hit then it doesn't matter anyway.  It doesn't help that only non-projectile spells can hit them AND they have great armor vs the primary damage class that could hit them.  I've done at least 10 builds over three classes and have yet to find something effective enough against them.  The best you can manage is to hit them with Spiteful Spirit and the like while praying they aren't running with monk secondary and dispel your hex.  Since you usually have at least 2 rangers on each side, then it becomes rapidly pointless.  In addition to interrupting the turtles they also can shoot you from most locations.  This is not even counting the new fad of Mezmers interrupting you alongside the rangers.  I made my original suggestion about the turtle's shots to be fair, but I would love nothing more then three or more shots each doing something special.  Like the original shot of heavy aoe damage, a fast armor-ignoring single-target shot (that ignores Prot Spirit or removes it), and a large radius low-damage shot that dispels enchants.  I've been seeing some more Luxon victories, due entirely to leechers on Kurz side.  Kurz requires only enough bonders to keep gunther alive to win, the rest are turtle-killing rangers and 1v1 builds.  Rarely you'll see a great Kurz team that really deserves to win, but it's horrible that we need a bad Kurz team against a good Lux team to win by anything short of the skin of our teeth.--69.19.14.19 06:09, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with the Kurzick bias claim. In my pre-update experience on both the Luxon and Kurzick sides, I have rarely seen talkative and cooperative teams. That is to say, I've rarely seen players discussing strategy and acting as a cohesive team; (pinging the same spot on the map 40 times in a row doesn't count as discussion and cooperation). If anything, this update forces players to take on more of a team-based role, rather than everyone doing their own thing. I've played entire rounds where not one single word was typed on my team. If players want to come to a team-based competitive mission to earn faction, then they're going to have to act as a team to win. If Kurzick monk/bond teams can do it, then the Luxons should be able to get their shit together as well. Ninjatek 15:41, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't say to come up with the team issue when in fact 8 players enter randomly, thanks to that random sometimes they can't deal with the Kurzicks build and viceversa.--ShadowFog 15:46, 25 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Kurzick teams don't have any team work, the only thing I ever really see is immature posturing about how awesome they are. No joke.  There is no teamwork required to bond an npc, bots do it all the time.  Sometimes you'll see duo's working together but most of the time Kurz plays solo just as much as Luxons do.  The only difference is that they don't cripple their team playing like this.  Teamwork can accomplish a lot, but it's ridiculous that all but the absolute best Luxon teams working together can't overcome Kurzick's running around doing their own thing.  I've lost once as a Kurzick against a great Luxon team while my team was brain-dead, every other time we didn't work together yet still won.  Team work is NOT the issue.--69.19.14.24 23:20, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Please this is getting ridiculous, as a Kurzick I have been winning 10 games out of 10 for the past few days now ever since the update. Honestly, I then tried playing as a Luxon but I have yet to win a single time.  It is too easy to defend right now.  If you think Luxons lose because they dont work as a team or pre-plan their attacks, what makes you so sure that Kurzicks do?  I am telling you that I have never seen any Kurzick perform any team planning either, and we still win every time, easily.  I have been playing throughout the thanksgiving weekends and I have never ever lose as a Kurzick.  Conversely, I have never ever win when I tried to switch sides to be a Luxon either.DarkSpirit 09:10, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Another suggestion on what could make the mission more balanced and in this case fun and rewarding Luxon tactics. It's been said before that we should benefit more then a spawn point for holding mines. So my thought is instead of adding a shrine effect which would benefit the Kurzicks much more then the Luxons in combination with their present advantages, Luxons can run amber to the commanders in order to spawn attack waves. The waves would be random in number and composition, roughly something like 100% chance for one, 75% chance to get a second, 50% chance to get a third, and 25% chance to get a fourth and made up of all available classes. These npcs would spawn without a turtle but follow the same path, giving Luxons the ability to spawn additional pressure and maybe get a few enchant strippers to help out that end. This would also force the Kurzick's to come out from the keep to ensure that Luxons can't run amber uninterrupted. Turtles would still spawn as normal, and the extra attack waves would not respawn when killed. Maybe refined amber would fill up a bar at each commander that would then summon a special champion squad that would be more powerful then the standard squad. This is countered by Kurzick's killing the commander and resetting the bar or forcefully holding the mines to stop the flow of amber and therefor Luxon troops. This change forces the Kurzick's to do something other then just stand around and bond one NPC to win, and rewards clever tactics on the part of the Luxons.--69.19.14.29 06:57, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * There are many ways kurzicks can take advantage of this system and I am already earning lots of kurzicks factions by exploiting the recent inbalance. Why not?  We win every single game in aspenwood.  If you map to aspenwood luxon, there are only afew luxons who are willing to play, but there are a lot more kurzicks waiting to gain easy factions in aspenwood kurzicks.  It is easy to take out siege turtles with a long/flatbow using degen like burning+poison, interrupting the turtle's slow attacks, and the luxon warrior AI would move towards my ranger then run back continuously back and forth because long/flatbow has too long a range.  With monks bonding/healing NPCs and party members running amber, I have never seen a kurzick loss.  The only times when kurzicks can lose is when the they do not know how to repair gates, and there were too many leechers.DarkSpirit 07:35, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Leeching, botting, quitting... Actually I've seen quite a number of problematic tactics being rolled out into the field since the update. Things that were around previously that have since become far more common:
 * Hunting Luxon player characters outside the outer gate when the nearby mines are in their hands as well.
 * Going after command posts when two turtles and 8 Luxon Warriors are knocking on the green gate.
 * Opening the green gate with a battle raging nearby and running straight to Gunther or a Gate Keeper instead of the inside Gate Lock.
 * Amber runners exiting the back room via the gate. One self sufficient Luxon can blow the entire amber running defence strategy by simply getting inside and holding out, so it's much safer to exit via the teleporter up the top. The ridiculous thing it that the circuitous route is just as fast thanks to the distance teleported and in the case of Gatekeeper Poletski teleporting out is actually faster.
 * Certain Nature Rituals... I don't think this needs further explaining, although the word "traitor" is sometimes applicable in the explanation.
 * Tank capable characters in the thick of a green room rumble while two turtles are firing in. Recently some irate player inside was yelling at "the meleers" (including me) to get back inside and help. I was successfully body blocking four Luxon Warriors and out-healing blasts from two turtles who were splitting fire between me, the single target versus the semi-clumped group of Kurzicks inside. I mentally supplied a snappy two word response to that suggestion while I worked those Luxon Warriors out of the equation.
 * Probably another half dozen other things I've seen people do that I can't recall at the moment.
 * Oh, I'm rambling now. Oops. I believe the point that I was driving at was that Kurzick losses do happen. Sometimes for some really silly reasons. -- WarBlade 11:55, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, yes WarBlade, we are aware that luck is the only thing that if Lyssa may feel nice enough to bestow upon us we might win. Other than that the Kurzicks have the advantage.--ShadowFog 12:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Another suggestion, not that Anet cares: remove the bluffs. Keep rangers and casters from being able to kill turtles and take mines without leaving their "safe" area. I wouldn't mind the decreased timer if the bluffs were gone. --Gah The  Epic  22:10, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, and an obvious solution: FIX THE FREAKIN' TIMER. --Gah The  Epic  22:10, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Guide to Playing as a Luxon in FA I made a guide for all Luxons, please read and submit feedback! --Gah <font color="Lime">The  <font color="Orange">Epic  20:59, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

New update is causing casualties
ArenaNet, thanks to the recent update you guys release this place has become leechers heaven. This is do to the fact that even if the player looses a match they get 1k faction. Another thing is that because of this faction increase "SOME" people just don't care to even try anymore. Guys please do something about this!--Troy 04:00, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Agree with this, the leeching is crazy in there and sitting listening to people talking, they don't care to win when they know they can get faction from losing. It's the same in Ab especially on double point weekends. This seriously needs to be addressed. I would suggest removing rewards for losing, then the quality of play might improve. SiMana 04:10, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this update kinda ruined... a lot. I see tons of bots and leeches on both sides, and ANet isn't exactly doing anything about it. It's really annoying, and people don't even CARE if they lose, so they don't report people. I've had several people say to me, when I complained about this, "So? You're still getting over 1k faction whenever you lose." Please, ANet, I like the increased rewards, but make the bot/leecher consequences a lot bigger... --<font color="Blue">Gah <font color="Lime">The  <font color="Orange">Epic  01:36, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah allot of the time what this people are doing is take running builds and just run around with out attacking the opponent team! Wish makes them look active but 100% useless to people that take this shit kinda serious.--Troy 23:10, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Solution: allow players to have a team but also allow players to enter random just ilke in TEAM ARENAS players can enter with teams or not dont matter that should prevent leechers and botters --Ridz16 22:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, lets give syncers the ability to sync without even trying. THAT'S not asking for trouble AT ALL.<font color='red'>S <font color='green'>e <font color='red'>c <font color='green'>k <font color='red'>s <font color='green'>y  23:19, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * "Ridz16" there are only 2 solutions to this problem: :1:"I would suggest removing rewards for losing"(SiMana, 20/11/2008) :2:Have a GM monitoring the in-game(Just this area if he wants.), game play.(There by being capable of taking action right that second. Instead of waiting for Arena net to read the report LOG).--Troy 00:46, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Make some sort of GM-Bot wich report inactivity
 * Please sign you comments!--24.26.11.77 22:26, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I vote in favor of a GM monitoring this area for leechers. Not in favor of removing rewards for losing, that is unmotivated for any player. It is difficult to report players while actively paying attention to the game,we respawn every 5 seconds,this is a fast map.--Wealedout 15:18, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I'd like the Dishonor hex to last longer the more you get it exponentially in a week or even month time frame. I'd also like to see the total number of reports to get it reduced to three and an automatic leeching report for anyone staying in the starting areas past 25%--69.19.14.29 06:44, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * "I'd also like to see the total number of reports to get it reduced to three and an "-->automatic leeching report for anyone staying in the starting areas past 25%""(Wealedout). That's not a bad idea, but like I've mention before allot of this leechers don't really satay(of course some do)in the beginning areas they just take running skills and run around like headless chickens.--24.26.11.77 03:28, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Dam I would have though with this new update(12/11/08). They would have Done something about this problem but meeh... i guess this problem isn't much of a thread(*cough* BS look at happening to RA, Syncers and runners all over the god dam place. People get sick of this shit. If we over-report, we get suspended.(Guest what! We do it because it seems like not much gets done when we do report we see the same people back in the playing field a day later doing the same dam thing)). What's up with right or wrong. Ahhh..., I guess they don't matter much!--24.26.11.77 04:22, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I've never done FA in my life, but from reading this post, it looks like everyone agrees that it's imbahax. So I propose the following:
 * Make Kurzick groups random entry, make Luxon groups party entry.
 * That way, Lux can run the builds required to win and the Kurz can't lol8bonders.
 * Then, if that's not enough, we can try a different solution. But I think that that would go a long way.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  07:41, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah this is insane i mean come on now we have leechers that sit back relax and talk crap. WTF, do something about this is getting out of hand there's also a little something(HUGE) that is making this very inbalance there will be a video in youtube about it soon.--24.26.11.77 01:46, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Luxon Tips
To start this is entirely based on my own experiences and your mileage may vary. If you have an objection to anything in this, please feel free to respond to it in as insightful a manner as possible. This is to enlighten all Luxons (and probably some Kurzick’s but hey it’s worth the risk), and every bit helps.

Robbox’s Guide to Luxon Victory (Or Less Humiliating Defeat)

I’m going to start with several important facts one should always remember when entering Aspenwood.


 * 1) Don’t rely on other Luxons
 * 2) Bring some form of enchant stripping
 * 3) Death doesn’t mean jack, in fact it’s beneficial
 * 4) If it wastes time, it’s a bad build
 * 5) *Update!* Save the Turtles!
 * 6) Unless that PC is a monk or stalling a turtle, ignore it
 * 7) When under 75% do NOT let Kurzicks hold a mine, when above focus on green gate
 * 8) If your turtle is alive, don’t waste time retaking a command post
 * 9) KILL THE NPCS
 * 10) 2500 faction > 1500 faction


 * Starting with number one, you simply can’t rely on any other Luxon bringing the skills you need to make your build work. Especially expecting to receive heals, or relying on others to do damage.  A sad fact is that most Luxons when not a leech or bot, like to run 1v1 builds and run around like headless chickens.  If your build requires support to work, then you’re going to flounder and perform poorly.  If it can’t accomplish 2 of the 3 jobs Luxons need then you should consider bringing a different build.


 * Next is number two, and this is incredibly important. If you do not bring at least one enchant strip (I prefer running two) then you will never get past the first gate.  Necromancer is a fine choice and Assassin has a decent enchant strip.  Mesmers are also a good choice, but I prefer the heavier stripping from the Necromancer class.  These are all effective with minimal if any points, and when timed can be devastating to enemy bonders.  If you don’t bring an enchant strip your pretty much worthless because odds are, no one else did.


 * Death doesn’t hurt. Simple fact is that all a death costs you is 10 seconds plus some run time, and in fact often gets you back with full energy well before you could have recovered it normally.  So don’t get all bent out of shape if it happens.


 * Now it’s the fourth’s turn. Time is the most important factor to remember in this mission.  If you’re wasting time or progressing slowly then you’re going to lose.  This was true before the Kurzick buff and is a thousand times true after.  If you are consistently slow, then trying a different build or class may be a good idea.


 * UPDATE* Due to recent changes, keeping turtles alive is a GOOD thing. Now if only they would fix the LOS exploits huh?


 * Never ever, EVER get drawn into 1v1. You cripple your team and waste time by chasing a lone Kurzick and you lose if you break the gates then just fight players.  If you want to win, then you ignore everything but healers and stallers.


 * Mines are important, the ability for Kurzicks to run amber consistently is overwhelming and therefore taking back mines is a top priority. If you leave them this option then not only do you lose a spawn point, but they can repair walls no matter how fast you knock them down.  I’ve been in fights where the green gate got repaired four times in a row; I lost every one of those games.  The only exception is when you reach the 75% mark and MUST make a full scale attempt to win.


 * Command posts provide nothing more then a spawn point for turtles. Therefore your just wasting time if that turtle is still alive and you retake the post.


 * Once again, KILL THE NPCS! They are the target in this mission, not the Derv nor the freaking super tank.  All you’re doing is wasting valuable time that could be spent getting faction.  The Kurzicks rely on you to stupidly gun for the players who are largely unimportant and that is a large part of their constant victories.  Unless it’s one of the primary two jobs for the Kurzick side, ignore it if at all possible.  You should only kill bonders and stallers, the rest are only to be engaged if you have to proceed.


 * Lastly, for the crowd that say “you still get over 1,000 faction”. 2500 > 1,000.  Do you really need me to tell you this?

Luxon Primary Jobs

Ideally your build will cover two of the three primary jobs required for a Luxon victory. The three jobs are as follows;


 * 1) Gate/Mine clearing
 * 2) Enchant Stripping
 * 3) Killing Stallers/LOS exploiters.

If your build covers one of these jobs, you’re only slightly better then a leech. If you cover two, then you’re in solid shape. If you can do all three, then your team stands a good chance of winning.

Also can we get some build links to ones that work well with a short explanation of what they do? I know you can look them up on PvX but a listing of Aspenwood specific builds would rock. That would be fantastic in helping get people with the right builds in. Also don’t forget that PvP characters can enter the mission by talking with a Luxon Diplomat right next to where they start.--Robbox 19:55, 4 February 2009 (UTC) (Yay for static IP)


 * E/N Aspenwood Gatecrasher--69.19.14.27 03:23, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * N/A Tribute To Doomspike My necro-sabatoge build- looks awkward, but takes down gates in less than 3 seconds. --<font color="Blue">Gah <font color="Lime">The  <font color="Orange">Epic  22:05, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And now they nerfed it. [[Image:User Gah My Name Cant Fi Gah Doomspike.jpg]] 01:00, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Keeping the turtle alive is also a priority. Since the kurzick buff, the turtles have a long respawning time VS 5 mins to finish, letting them die is time wasting. There is no way you and "buddy" will clear all mines, gates and players alone even when your Vow of Silence build is rocking, a simple ranger will stall you and probably kill you. If you are not with a turtle, then please for the love of god don't go to the other side (left or right) to hang out with their turtle. Any side left unattended will lose you the game, 4 people on left side and 4 people on the right side is the ideal condition to win. Stay with the turtle even when the captains are killed, if you are killed then help retake the posts and don't forget to send the turtles again when "reinforcements" arrive. I can't believe the amount of people that don't send the turtle again, they just go through like they had amnesia, or maybe they are bots, which I would like to remind everyone that is another problem (discuss it in the "New update is causing casualties" topic above).


 * 1) Turtle alive
 * 2) 4 people on each side
 * 3) Send the turtles--Wealedout 22:20, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

--
 * I would agree with the turtles pre-patch. However post-patch they serve only as decoys to tie up Kurzicks.  I've run a turtle bonder on multiple occassions, the best games they got to the green gate, the average games they never made it past the inside gate.  After the patch not once has a turtle played a major part in a victory, no matter how long it was alive.  The warriors are more useful now....  Now this doesn't mean leave them at the command post but turtle bonder doesn't work.  Not when you can run a simple fire e/n build and clear a gate or mine in a fraction of the time it would take a turtle.  Mind Burn does wonders against players too, so ya a pair or more of players with that build could do far more damage then the turtle ever could.  I know that as a fact, since the four ele squad I was with one game was responsible for my first and only 25% win.--69.19.14.41 21:58, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Mr. 69.19.14.41,those are good strategies. The "Deals 80 damage to foes in the blast area. 250 damage to target foe." from the turtle's attacks can help you, but players think they can rambo a shrine with complete kurzick support in which case the turtle can help but beside that occasion I concur with what you have said.--Wealedout 22:40, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * From my views, I can concur that luxons, the majority are not following these steps, even if they do follow it, it all comes down to a build battle when going against 1 target. Common mistakes:
 * Not even Monks heal the turtles
 * There's an average of at least 3 mins where no one makes an attempt to win back the mines, in the rest of the cases the mines are not even taken back during the whole game. Common excuse:"We dont need mines to win." You can practically sit back in one blue mine and watch how no one makes even an attempt to take it back.
 * Every game contain at least 1 leecher/botter which in one game I even had 4 leechers/botters.
 * When a turtle arrives, theres an average of at least 2 min where no one goes back for turtles.
 * I can conclude: that almost no one press the U key for mission map, if they do they don't care for the simple fact that in 5 min you get more faction than any other PvP place. Even when I had the fortunate of having a group that did all of these it all comes down to a build wars against one target and where the Kurzicks spawn at an earshot from Gunther. Yes, we have a hell a lot of objectives to do.--ShadowFog 04:14, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Spawning Turtle Time fact
The article doesn't mention how long is the spawning time of the turtles. I've estimated around every 30 seconds. If anyone have any fact to this(if ya beat me to it) feel free to post it.--ShadowFog 13:11, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Here's my results. I would like more confirmation on this before I update the article.--ShadowFog 13:30, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * From the time the turtle dies, the respawn time of the turtle is 100 seconds.--ShadowFog 13:29, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Count from the message saying the squad has been wiped out, not when the turtle dies. 66.190.15.232 01:31, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Does the squad needs to be wipeout for a turtle to respawn?--ShadowFog 04:17, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, their respawn timer starts only after the turtle and all four warriors die. 66.190.15.232 05:06, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's 30 seconds.--<font color="Blue">Gah <font color="Lime">The  <font color="Orange">Epic  22:07, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

12/11/08 Update
Woohoo! Now this is what I'm talking about. I didn't want to post too soon because I wanted to test the balance further but it appears out of the 7 matches I entered, Luxon won 4 and Kurzick won 3. They had a few bonders and we still managed to make it to Gunther thanks to the turtle update. Sometimes we got close to wining but did not succeed. That's ok though. I was having fun. It was exciting. I was able to use my Paragon with the updated Incoming! and not having to worry about the "speed dont matter if u cant get past the first gate" feeling. Lux had some trappers (long time tie since I saw this) on the outside portal to put pressure on those that want to take over the mines. Hell, I saw a bunch of peeps on both sides use different classes for the first time instead of the usual Kurz healer/bonder/interrupter and the Lux enchantment remover. It was a very nice change. Kurz had some strategy now by targeting the Lux mines and/or killing (not stalling) the turtles. The Lux had to consider using strategy too: kill the peeps killing our turtles (which meant we couldn't move forward into the base until the threat was eliminated) or take back the mines that are now protected by a Kurz spirit spammer and his Kurz helper. Sure, we had to do that all the time but at least this time we know we can advance now so taking back the mines is pertinent. It felt balanced. First update I had to get up early just to see if the update was real.

Still early to tell because peeps are enjoying the recent upgrades to elites. Once that settles, the map will be in full swing again and then I can see if just those few adjustments were enough to balance everything. I can enjoy this map all day and not get bored or frustrated now. It's fast and fun for both sides. I can go on and on but I won't so I will cut this short because this is taking me away from my Fort Aspenwood rush. 24.106.177.50 17:08, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The feelings are mutual. Seems like now bonding is not a great way to go for the kurzicks. No more can the turtle be stopped with a single ranger.--ShadowFog 18:08, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Many Kurzick players are very unhappy with this change, but not I. I've been bored playing Aspenwood ever since the -5 minutes, but now it's fun again. The Luxons needed a buff, and they got a nice one. Much more fast-paced and challenging now. I'm Arshay Duskbrow, and I approve this update. Arshay Duskbrow 03:55, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * LOL hey arshay! ^___^ nothing's change with this update Kurzick still owns luxon's butt atleast with the teams I'm with. Yeah this update atleast gave a "slight" edge as far as challenging goes. I like this update because it cleanse FA from newschool, lots of people left especially bonders now all that's left are the really good ones ty update <3<3 --Ridz16 19:56, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This update was very beneficial, though the map still favors the Kurzicks. It's a kind of bittersweet victory, as they nerfed my first "Great" build on PvXwiki. A step in the right direction Anet. Walk a bit more, now. --[[Image:User Gah My Name Cant Fi Gah Doomspike.jpg]] 23:37, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

After a week from the update, Anet still missed 1 of the 3 problems associated with the balancing. Here were the problems: 1)healing/bonding galore, 2)one person interrupting/killing the turtle and 3)stalling the turtles. It appears anet did not balance number 3.  It was discussed above but I guess a picture would have helped anet understand what we meant with the stalling http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gw385.jpg.  Notice the time...and the turtle never got past this point.  In this picture, the Kurz gave us false hope on purpose cause they had 3 other healers and it was at the end of the match.  If one Kurz side needed assistance...no big deal.  The staller just dances and no one can reach him and this gives the Kurz time to do what they need.  You guessed it...never have to leave the base (Kurz do at the start of the match for backup repairs).  The healing/bonding npc's and/or uber tanks still happen.  Just in case you can't tell from the picture, here is how it works:


 * 1. A Kurz player goes to the top of their base near either/both the portals. This can be any player since no one (turtles nor Luxons) can touch him.
 * 2. A Kurz sits down and waits for the turtle to arrive. The Kurz is within aggro range of the turtle but the turtle CANNOT reach the Kurz player NOR CAN LUXONS.  The Kurz remains seated or dances throughout the match.
 * 3. Healers/Bonders are healing and bonding the NPC's but the turtle never advances to assist since it cannot hit the Kurz stalling it.
 * 4. Luxons cant get past the gate since the healers/bonders are doing the usual thing since the turtle is being occupied.
 * 5. Since the turtle never moves because the target within range is not dead, this creates the stall.
 * 6. Luxons can only reach the staller if the second gate is down.
 * 7. Luxons can't get past the first gate due to healers/bonders.
 * 8. Luxons ragequit.

I showed you this picture just to let anet know that the staller cant be reached in several positions. Sometimes the Kurz will let the Lux in past the first gate only to allow fellow Kurz to catch them in a flank BUT they will not allow the turtle to get close enough to the second gate if they go this route. This gives some offensive Kurz (Rangers) time to move from one side to the other with little effort. You will see the staller move to let Luxons get closer. This way the Kurz get more faction for kills and this lets the healers/bonders get closer to each other within the base. This allows for a fast move from one side to the other just in case the healer is under pressure. This also allows the Kurz to have elevation.

After the excitement from the elite skill update died down, the Kurz are at it again. Like I said, this stalling was mentioned above (before the update) but somehow anet did not understand what was said so I hope this clarifies it. I guess the update will happen very soon to fix this shit. 75.178.40.119 04:26, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * oh come on! more QQ's please. Like I've mention with this update, FA kurzick has been cleansed with newschools and noobs. Therefore the people that still play are the really good ones. You say it yourself at the last paragraph "Sometimes the Kurz will let the Lux in past the first gate only to allow fellow Kurz to catch them in a flank BUT they will not allow the turtle to get close enough to the second gate if they go this route. This gives some offensive Kurz (Rangers) time to move from one side to the other"  sounds like a typical kurz strategy to me.... Join a kurz team and you'll see plenty of chat lines on your TEAM CHAT channel, what happens when you're in Lux team? nothing.. usually a bunch of zombies and no coordination let alone TEAM CHAT communication. I can get 5 luxon players to chase me for 4 minutes 5vs1 before I'm fully dead (not to brag but its just to point out how Luxon teams operates on their strategy) By the way you can attack someone standing near those portals like Hammer Warr with shadowsteps....
 * oh and one more thing, LUXONS COME IN OUR TEAM & SPAM ranger spirits like eoe bomb, mudd terrain, quickening zephyr and other NASTY ranger spirits as well as opening gates..... do you see us complaining about it?--Ridz16 05:18, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Those aren't Luxons, those are Kurzicks. If they were Luxons, they couldn't possibly be on the Kurzick team. --76.25.197.215 06:02, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ya I can map to FA luxon outpost enter the game and ragequit, I can't be kurzick cuz I'm a luxon right? or did I miss what your trying to say.. Idk.--Ridz16 06:15, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No, you pretty much got it. There is no faction loyalty.  The only reason the Kurzicks get fucked by spirits is because it's fun and they're the only side that can be fucked by spirits. --76.25.197.215 06:18, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol, actually there is faction loyalties, that's why a luxon with r7 title comes to kurzick outpost and make threats that he'll use ranger spirit spams on purpose just to make the team lose. I honestly don't ragequit but I know a few 'hot tempered' kurz who does, did you know the majority of luxon ragequitter are actually kurzick; that's why you see them ragequit 1-2 minute of the game because they are annoyed by the luxon cheaters, are you aware of these FA Behaviours? when it comes down to it its like "come to our side and make us lose we'll go to your side and make yall lose" speaking of faction loyalties come by kurzick outpost and you'll see a kurzick talking about owning --Ridz16 06:32, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Your grammar isn't great, I'm having trouble understanding what you just wrote. Your tenses and pluralities are all fucked and I can't figure out what you were getting at in your second sentence.
 * And you taught me something, I didn't know that there were people who had actual emotional attachments to their side of an artificial separation engineered for the sole purpose of fostering division and therefore (ill-natured) competition. So thank you for that. --76.25.197.215 06:43, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I did? thnx like what I would usually tell someone: play more FA and you might just notice why some people take it to the extremes. Its the internet, maybe you need to work on your reading comprehension rather than paying attention to w/e it is you say, lols my bad if my second sentence made it look like you're FA newschool. I made my point I'm done, resorting to grammar insults proves you got nothing more to say. Just remember that kurzick will come up with new strategy no matter what. A lot of people would argue FA map favors kurzick when the 7:3 win ratio at JQ is the same, atleast the teams I'm with.--Ridz16 06:59, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not trying to insult you, I'm trying to tell you that I'm honestly having difficulty understanding what you're saying. But you don't seem to be going out of your way to understand what I'm writing either, so I don't think we have much more to talk about. --76.25.197.215 07:04, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah, looks like someone uses that stalling exploit. It appears the Kurz loyalist does not want anet to take away their free win without doing any work...talk about QQ.  I want balance but for some Kurz loyalists they do not.  Some new Kurz want to know how its done.  What I said earlier was for anet and they can figure it out but here is what you do for the new players in a little more detail:
 * 1. A healer is preferred since they are overpowered in guild wars and only like 3 skills that prevent good healing haha (the Lux can have 4 turtles and an all healer team will never lose, hint hint). Thank goodness that Lingering Curse changed from 50% to 33%. It will take a lot to kill you and made healers even more powerful. Use a Monk, Ritualist, Dervish, or Elementalist with healing skills but any class is fine since no one can touch you.
 * 2. On your radar you will see a grey circle that surrounds you. This is your aggro bubble which is considered "earshot" range.  Anything touching or within this range can hit you or come after you.  For the touching part, the enemy is the red circle that represents the opposing player and all the red circle has to do is touch your aggro bubble (like touching 2 plates together) to attack.  You do NOT want your bubble to touch the enemy bubble.
 * 3. Go to the top of Kurz base near the portal and watch your aggro bubble.
 * 4. Look at the walls at the top as well as the right or left (depending on which side of the base you choose). The right (orange) is mostly used since the Kurz can kill the turtle easily at the start when capturing the left (purple) mine.
 * 5. Move a tad so that the aggro bubble barely touches the front wall and side wall. The front wall is more important since the turtle moves to the front first.  You will have time to make adjustments and you have plenty of wiggle room.  Once you find your place, take off all your clothes and dance for the Luxons.  Hell, give a wave every now and then. haha
 * 6. Since the aggro bubble barely touches the walls, the turtle cannot hit you AND a Luxon cannot hit because they are just outside of aggro range.
 * 7. Since the turtle uses a projectile, the wall obstructs the attack. If you move back then the turtle can hit you and this is why the position is important.  You can move to the front of the wall and the turtle wont hit BUT a Luxon can.  This is why you get out of range for both for the easy win.
 * 8. The only way a Lux can hit you from this position is to get past the second gate and the crippling npc's. By this time, help is on the way to kill the Lux after you so you never have to move. Just make sure you don't move...stalling the turtle is your priority.  The Lux rely on the turtle and can't win without it.
 * 9. Since a turtle nor player cannot hit you, the turtle will continue attacking. The turtle will not advance until all enemies in its range are no longer in range thus making the turtle stall.  The turtle is too stupid to realize it cant hit you and keep attacking. Slow AND stupid. lol
 * 10. If you happen to get close so that a caster can hit you (melee and shadow-steppers cant reach you until the second gate is down), just take a step back to heal the damage and remove the hexes without recourse. This is why a healer is important to use since you can shrug off anything thrown at you.
 * 11. The healers/bonders are free to heal/bond the npcs giving the Kurz a free win without ever needing to leave the base.
 * 12. IF, JUST IF the Lux players can make it past the first gate, they will get trapped between the first and second gate and Kurz can have a field day using the flank.
 * 13. If all else fails, use an uber tank with the Defy Pain build and heal/bond him.


 * Sweet, aint it? Enjoy it while it lasts Kurz. 75.178.40.119 13:08, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * What's even sweeter is you act like you know what you're talking about, quite funny really. I say this because.... there are lots of tricks in FA, both sides do.. it doesn't matter if they fix "stalling" because:


 * (In kurz team, you bring wrong skill, you dont act right YOU GET YELLED at in team chat) I've fought and seen luxon warrior's who brings 5 fire spells, monks with spoil victor etc etc and do you know what's happening in kurzick team chat? we are laughing, some can't even control it so they talk in ALL chat insulting luxons for playing bad. ARE YOU SURE the issue is the kurzick/map/mechanics and not from the luxons? QQ some more it doesnt change the fact that you guys are bad. When you got a time come visit Kurzick FA outpost and you'll notice every once in awhile when players comeback playing, they start to talk about how luxons mess up as well as other strategy to win, what do you see in luxon outpost? what do you see in luxon team chat? NOTHING.


 * 8 npc warr glitch, forcing gatekeepers to walk outside green gate, running amber even when gates are close, are just a few tricks that both sides has and has been around and been pass down. It doesn't matter if all of this are fix, the problem comes from luxon strategy. Stalling is not just standing there while turtle shoots at you, the real trick is bringing certain profession and a build that heals your entire party for 70 heals every 2 seconds without being near them without running out of energy while buffing them with +10 damage. That is the real purpose of stalling.......but those who doesn't have the priviledge to get the build does it anyway using any profession and being half useless.
 * Like I said there are FA tricks that has been around for so long that its just gone un-notice; STALLING is getting more and more attraction due to recent turtle buffs.--Ridz16 23:39, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * QQ all you want, Kurz still exploit anything that will give them a free win without doing any work just like peeps looking for runners in pve. The 8 warrior thing is, like you said, a glitch but that only happens once every like 50 mathces.  There is a glitch when those warriors get stuck around a corner but you sure as hell dint say anything about that did you?  There is a glitch when the warriors dont attack an enemy in range but just keep walking back and forth but you sure as hell dint say anything about that did you?  Let's move on, shall we?  A Kurz standing where NO ONE can touch him so the bonders continue doing their job is not a glitch...its an exploit.  Don't get me wrong, if Lux had an exploit that would give them a free win, I am pretty sure they would do it too.  Problem is the Lux are not the ones with the exploit.  I don't have a problem with simple stalling (like an uber warrior) but at least that problem can be dealt with by a lux player/turtle.  The exploit happens when a Lux NOR turtle can kill the Kurz stalling it because he is out of reach.  Now that needs to be fixed.  Here is some good news that you already know when anet fixes this exploit: an all healer Kurz team is a free win.  Now that is not an exploit rather a design flaw making them very crucial and very powerful.  No amount of turtles can win against that. 75.178.40.119 13:33, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * are just a few tricks that both sides has and has been around I'm not the one QQ'ing because like I said... even if they fix all the glitch people from luxon will be running: monk with spoil victor, derv with full fire spell, warr with 5 healing spells, mes with sword(IW), etc etc, in fact since luxon owns so much I've compose a video about those professions mention and I'm making a tribute, because LUXONS OWNS so much and lets blame it ALL on the kurz/glitch/map gg.--Ridz16 22:51, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Anet was on vacation during the holidays so we did not see a change in the January update. This is a good sign btw.  If anet had a simple solution then it wouldn't take that long to implement.  If the change happens in February then that gave them about 2 months to gather a test group to see what the hell happens in this map and make changes accordingly.


 * This map is so busted: one side is defending and one side is attacking. What better defender do you need than a Monk.  That's where the unbalance begins.  Defense out performs the Offense in Guild Wars and that creates a delay of game.  This isn't about what I think is/n't supposed to be on a map or what I think belongs.  I am simply stating the obvious...healers ruin any game that gives a player the ability to heal themselves as well as others; meanwhile, you have other classes that can barely heal themselves.  Having said that, that makes healers so fucking crucial that you cant do a damn thing without them.  This is neither here nor there since Anet aint gonna just up and delete a profession so we have to deal with it until Guild Wars 2.  Everywhere you look, a healer is necessary to do the game.  In Random Arenas, that is the only drawback.  If your side does not have a healer, then you, sir or madam, are at disadvantage.  That is just common sense.  One side has the healer and the other does not.  What happens when they have 2 healers and you have none?  Don't seem balanced does it?  This isnt about, "Go to Team Arenas if you want a Monk and stop QQ about it."  For one, I am not in TA, I'm in RA.  If I wanted a healer then, yeah, I would go to TA.  The randomness is not the problem...its the healer classes.  I am not saying its impossible to win when its 4v4 and one side has a healer...its just harder.  Same thing for pve.  Can I go without an Assassin?  Sure.  Can I go without an Elementalist?  Sure.  Can I go without a healer?  Helllllllllllllll No.  It's just how the game is designed.


 * So how does this relate to Fort Aspenwood? Same principle applies.  One side has 8 healers and things just got impossible.  Luxons will never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never win if Kurzicks are all healers.  I didn't say 50/50...I said impossible.  All Kurzicks need are healers to win...hell, just bring 4 healers ftw.  That's not balance.  No need for an exploit or any gimmick.  No need for mines which in return makes them pointless.  No need to leave the base.  No need to ping a target.  No need to send a spy to the Luxon side and leave them a man short.  No need for diversity because an all healer team is all that's needed to win.  Don't get me started on the latest update on Peace and Harmony (bring this and heals and wtf is a Luxon gonna do?  QQ his way out and rage quit lol).  There are some Kurz that dont want to use a healer (a good thing btw) because they want to have fun and earn a win.  It gets boring just camping in the base.  It gets boring using the same profession over and over.  Unfortunately, that is an easy way to win and needs fixing.  Anet did not design a map that would force the Kurz to take something other than healers.  This map is not designed for Kurzicks to leave the base.  I'm not saying Kurz shouldn't leave base...just saying they are not required ftw.  Since they are not required, then that leaves the greatest possible solution to win which are healers and healers trump any damage dealer.  If Kurz dint bring all healers/bonders then there would not have been a need to update the turtles.  For those Kurz QQ about turtles, do this: Turtles remove one enchantment.  Just cast Patient Spirit when the turtle attacks and the bond will stay because, you guessed it, Patient Spirit is removed by the turtle.  See how easy it is to outdo the turtles?  Just in case a Mesmer is targeting that bonder at the first gate, a monk is behind the bonder (out of reach of mesmer) and he casts Peace and Harmony on the bonder. haha.  All this and you don't even need the stalling exploit.  Dont take my word for it...try it.  Luxons just can't catch a break can they?  So that means, turtles may have to remove all enchantments then give the juggernaut the ability to give allies a faster attack rate like it does for energy.  Then that will lead to more buffs.  Sigh.  Dunno but this map is busted bad thanks to healers.  Healers can out heal any damage and remove any hex and condition.  There is no threat that a healer cant handle.  I swear I hate this game and like it at the same time.  Healers have low costs, fast casts and low recharge and can heal a shit load of health.  When you have 8 Kurzick healers, how the fuck you think it was going to end?  No amount of turtles can win against that.


 * Anet needs to get a test group and compete on this map for about a week. Get some peeps who know some things and have them test with Anet.  If they did, they would have found out this map was busted when it was introduced in Factions.  This map may need a massive revamp for all we know in order to balance it.  Maybe Anet can balance it without a complete overhaul.  I tell you what, just gather an all healer team on the Kurz side and see how it works.  Then you can see the, "Oh wow, how did we miss that?" on your face.  No one wants to succumb to the "gotta use this profession" or get stuck with the "gotta have this skill" mentality.  Some good news is diversity happened with the new skill update in December.  This map seemed balanced because they just wanted to have fun with the new skills; matches were 50/50.  When the excitement died down, Kurzicks when back to their old tricks; matches were slowly reaching 99/1.  Funny thing is that Kurz didn't even need to exploit or use a load of healers to get wins when peeps were enjoying the skill changes.  As I said earlier, don't take my word for it nor other players words for it.  Test it and maybe you can create a balanced map that allows fun across all professions regardless of what silly build someone may bring or if they have a handicap due to leechers.  This game should be about fun...not rage quitting.


 * The player base gives Anet a lot of guff but that is because we get frustrated, use expletives and cant believe it happened in the first place. It is quite obvious that Anet listens to players and they are very concerned about their experience and want to create the best possible experience while doing their best to maintain balance.  They may not get it right away but give them time.  They are trying.  They take our feedback and act on it.  They believe in us.  Now it is our turn to believe in them. 75.178.43.76 00:12, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Twas a good update, made the game much funner to play (I'm kurzick), it's more or less even now to be honest if still a little bias towards the Kurzicks. Here are a few changes that I personally think would improve the gameplay/make it that slight bit fairer to luxons:
 * 1. Make spawn time for siege turtles squads longer, as in at least 1 minute
 * 2. To counter this make siege turtles automatically be sent off to the fort (realistically speaking this makes more sense as why would you wait for an order to send you're troops in when you've already started the attack)
 * 3. Allow Gatekeepers/Gunther to accpect amber even if enemies are in the green area, but only while their health is above 50%
 * 4. Make Gatekeepers/Gunther stay in green area so they can't be lured out
 * 5. Give seige turtles another 3 sec cast time skill which spawns 4 Luxon warriors with it, this skill would only be used when all warriors originally in the squad are dead (perhaps a little too good)
 * 6. Make a 'shrine effect' inside green gate which gives gunther damage reduction/health regeneration proportional to how many gatekeepers are alive(no gatekeepers-no buff, this would 'force' luxons to attack and kill gatekeepers 1st)
 * 7. Give the Command posts the Battle Cry bonus (just the 25% movement bit) as long as the Commander is above 50% health (In other words a player moves into the post and gets the buff for 60 seconds but can be renewed by walking back into it + this would affect squads)
 * 8. Conversely if Kurzick's take the command post provide them with the buff instead (this would give a real purpose to taking posts as would really help with running amber + not too disadvantageous to luxons as kurzick command posts are easy to take back)
 * 9. Make Refined amber repair 2 gates on the same side or green then one of that side (not as good as it seems)

Now some of these probably are ridiculous and I would only implement a few but I believe it could make gameplay better.

However, some ideas that have been suggested here I believe are bad ideas and why:
 * 1. Adding a variety of NPC's to go with the squad-By this people usually mean monks, bare in mind kurzicks only have 2 NPC monks and they're right at the back and cannot self-heal, if only 1 monk per squad was added this would mean that the Luxons have a total of 5 NPC monks, making Luxon NPC's just superior to Kurzick, but the main reason I dislike this idea is that it would disrupt the 'food chain' of FA as I see it, Kurzick NPC's > luxon warriors > kuzick players > Siege turtle > Kurzick NPC's and round and round it goes. Adding a monk would make it v.hard for anything to dispose of the siege turtles and considering the re-spawn for them atm is v.small this would make siege turtles...well...overpowerd
 * 2. Make command posts spawn squads faster-like I've said, if anything I'd lengthen the time for a re-spawn considering its a measely 10 seconds atm, Instead, as I have said, merely allow them to advance automatically
 * 3. Make mines/posts have better NPC's/defence-I personally think the current NPC arrangement is fair to both luxons and kurzicks and it would only complicate matters to add more, besides any change to one teams defence would have to be equaled by the other.
 * 4. Luxon mines give buffs-this has risen due to a misunderstanding of what mines do for each team, for kurzicks they provide amber and for luxons they give a ressurection point. This is balanced and therefore to provide luxons with any other advantage would be unfair to kuzicks.

This is my viewpoint Mortsu 21:56, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Turtle Power
quick question, how does a turtle a with:

- a damage reducing stance

- a foe targeting shadowstep( annoying when getting amber)

- minimum 4 body guards

have a AOE disenchant attack that is hard to interrupt that still deals 250 damage, i know we're looking for balance, but when is one suppose to defend the fort? and you have 2 of these attacks raining down on you every 15 secs while you trying to clear the place from all the MMs, ele bombers/nukers, hexor, and monks, or trying to heal yourself, people around you and good ol gunther from this barrage of attacks. can't we lower the damage just alittle, or increase the recharge or casting time of this attack, seriously, bonder are gone now and it's hard to outheal all of this, trying to heal gunther with a spell that heal over 200 hp and that barely made a dent in massive damage output coming from the luxon side --64.229.77.15 00:16, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh wow, that's sooooo unbalanced. Owait... Luxons have been experiencing that for a month. Can YOU put up with it for a month? Or can we please revert the entire arena, except for faction gain, to how it was before the November update? --[[Image:User Gah My Name Cant Fi Gah Doomspike.jpg]] 01:03, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

luxons didn't it that bad to begin with, nukers, disenhanter and a memser was all it took for the luxons to win a match, and it didn't matter how many healers were on the kurs side, with the first update yes pressure was on the luxon to do this quickly, but now all i see is seige attacks, minions, fire and ray of judgements, all im asking is a nerf to taht attack,... and yes i can wait a month, im just voicing my opinion now :)--64.229.77.15 01:42, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

There's a build that kills turtle + luxon npc warr in 2 seconds (if there's no monks involve, its the reason luxon monks brings heal area) but I'm not telling what it is... *giggles hysterically* bottomline: turtle isn't that powerful; oh and may I remind you the majority of "bonders" stay at green gate even tho outer gates are up, they basically leech thnx ANET for this update. --Ridz16 21:00, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yah the monk being the primary factor for Kurzicks winning was incredibly boring, but it's still important. The enchantment removal is miniscule at best, cast prot spirit and then Patient Spirit b4 the seige attack. With minimal effort you completely negated the enchantment removal effect. As for harder to interupt, well considering the Luxons have to actively attack and kill several NPCs many of which can be brought back by running amber with our ONLY NPC support being the turtle as the warriors won't move until it's dead, being able to shut down the one and only support NPC for the Luxon attack with a single skill without fail is incredibly unbalanced. Remember Luxons have to kill a minimum of 9 gate npcs which do a lot of damage, usually 3 middle gate npcs and 2 inner gate npcs on either saide before they can even consider attacking gatekeepers or gunther. They need to do this while fighting an equal team of human players. 4+ healers on the Kurzick side is still insta win. Play more proactively to get better rewards, the NPCs arent supposed to do it for you, they are supposed to support you. A good luxon team will break gates and kill npcs, they won't let the turtle do it for them, otherwise they'd never get anywhere. 58.106.44.204 06:41, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Kurzicks were winning just as much as Luxons after the update. Some Kurz dont like the fact they have to actually do work to win since they were used to a free win. The turtles are easy to kill and Luxons dont usually have healers since they need offense. The same can be said for Kurz though since they use healers all the time so it will depend on the players build and team effort to win. Unfortunately, took about 4 days (after the elite skill update died down) for everyone to find out that anet did not fix the stalling exploit so Kurz are doing the bonding/healing crap again. 75.178.40.119 13:25, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * SO BRING AN ENCHANTMENT REMOVAL YOU DOLTS! Or OMG have you considered attacking the monks so they can't maintain their enchants? This is the crap that forces ANETS hand on unbalancing the game to compensate for your entire factions stupidity.  I used to be a Luxon, I used to play in FA with sync teams and with non sync teams, it isn't hard, you are all just lazy and stupid.  The precise reasoning for our guild to switch to Kurzick.Old Man Of Ascalon 01:55, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * yes lets do that. i'll go attack the monk while he sits behind a friggin gate and protecting the NPC that i have to kill to get thru the gate (/sarcasm). thats like having someone sit in your car and lock it every time you try to unlock it, since to make them stop healing the NPC so you can get thu the gate, you have to get them to stop healing the NPC so you can get to them (yes that doesnt make sense, thats the point). only non-projectile spells can hit them, and many of thoses kills are DOT AOE, so they can move out of range. BTW it really pisses me off when people sit there and say the luxons all suck. if everyone didnt decide the luxons suck and go play kurz, then there would be good players on the luxon side. Githyan 20:20, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Kurzick Tips
No one has done it, so here we go. Like the Luxon Tips, post here your tips for fellow players.


 * The whole map is within walking distance.

If you don't know what this means, go play 5 times in a row with the Luxons, I'll wait.......Now that you have lost 5 times in a row you can understand it better. Remember this tip, Luxons have to walk to do everything, they don't have teleporters that leave them almost in earshot distance of mines.


 * "Gimme a builld:"

There ya go, you can swap a few of them for more damage or take a Weaken Knees build. The Luxons have to defend, attack, enchant strip, heal, run & cap, supposedly Kurzicks are supposed to defend but attacking works just as well or even better. The best defense is a good offense, there are more builds that also take down the turtle and the warriors in 2 seconds.If you can add more AoE damage to that build, then good.--Wealedout 04:17, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

my tips for aspenwood

1. rely on other, but don't depend on them.

2. mines are the only things you should be capping, (NO COMMAND POSTs)

3. rebuilding a gate is worth more time then the 2% of time gunther gives

4. If you weren't born in a barn, then close the gate behind you,

5. don't be afraid to die, youll return to your some location in about 10 sec

6. give amber to the opposite gatekeeper from you capped mine

1. team work can be very important here, and extra hand while capping mine or running amber is great but depending on you build or situation, it not always needed. When dealing with a turtle with a full set of warriors, having one distract them can give you alot of time to kill, because from my experience, if they all run after one guy, you're pretty much safe from them until they return to the turtle and start targeting you, they won't target you while they are running after the other guy.

2. personally i find that capping command post a waste of time, capping mine is one thing and important, but when the fort is being overrun, and your team is trying to take control, trying to cap the command posts does nothing to help the situation at that moment. yeah if your team got everything under control, then yes you can afford to try and take them, other then that, stick to capping mines and running amber.

3. pretty simple this one, giving amber to gunther only equals to two percent of the time bar, this about 3-6 secs, normally an unprotected gate can hold off luxons for about 5-30sec, always well worth it in any case.

4. again another simple concept and is just polite to anyone healing the gate, not only that, some times luxon well run past a open gate, and either try and kill gunther/a gatekeeper, or distract the healers from healing the gate guards. this will sometimes cost the kurzick the game.

5. if you die while taking out anything at the same time, it was worth the death, be it only one mine guard, some nuker, or even just one luxon warrior, 6 sec for you to return to your previous position VS 15 sec for luxon to return, you got the home court advantage use it.

6, you just got purple mine capped and both orange and purple gates are down, you want to give it to the orange gate keeper, that way, you got something to stop the respawning luxon from the time being, your not going to be too worried about luxon coming from your capped mine side. of course always judge on whats needed at the time, your coming in with some amber and a horde of luxons is on your tale, think on what would be best for the situation

common roles for kurzick in aspenwood

1, healer/support

2, amber runners

3, crowd controller

1, monk or healing rits are always welcome, but sometime not always needed if other two roles are doing there job well it can be just as easy, i've been in many games where i won without any healers, of course i also been in a game where we had 5 healer and still lost, no one ran amber, and no one tried stop the luxons from walking all over our healers. healers priority should be as followed, the npc (gate guard/gatekeepers/gunther), them self, party member, other party members must realize that any extra energy a healer has to give to you is a godsend, when the pressure is on, the helaer can't afford neither the energy to heal you nor the time it take switch from their target to you, heal you and switch back to there target, because in that that time their target could be dead. And of course support can come from a bip nerco, paragon, or anyone that can help out the healers or other party member, not really need or necessary, but its always nice to have.

2, basic concept, you go to a mine that you own, pick up a bundle of amber and bring it back to repair a gate, amber runners must able to do two thing, kill the mine guards and run, it best to be able to do the former better then the latter, less time spent trying to kill luxon mine guard more time you have to run that amber. A build that is meant for killing and only having one ims is alot more effective then a build that can only tank and run, its mean that the killing build can take a mine and return with amber more often, especially when luxons always retake those mines. I try and run amber until the 75% mark, if green gate is up and at one of the other gates then i would head in and work on crowd control for the rest of the game, but between running amber and protecting the fort, if the luxon are right in front of the green gate, then i work try and clear them out as best as i could, if you think your healers and other party mebers can handle the situation, then try get get more amber, if not then help out inside as much as possible,

3, crowd controller is anyone who can keep the luxon spellcasters and turtles in check, this can be anyone who watches the healers back from any anticasters, can take care of a MM or their minion, can deal with bomber and nuker, or simple killing off the turtles or their monk if they have one. Ranger and spellcaster fit well into here, melee profession not so much until luxon start entering the fort, cause the gates are blocking you from the luxon and you don't want to risk opening the gates to get at them. interrupter and long range damage dealers can keep luxons from advancing the inner gate most time. AOE spell can take out the turtle and their warriors or a whole army of minion quite effectively. and anything that can stop mesmers and necros from harassing your healer helps.--Metal Sazz 07:49, 19 December 2008 (UTC)