Feedback talk:User/Tha Reckoning/Patient Spirit

Patient's heal amount surpasses all other non elites. When you're redbarring, the healing delay doesn't make a difference at all. I'm not sure whether or not I agree with the change made, but I do agree that all other damage needs to come down significantly. ~Shard  04:41, 20 September 2009 (UTC) Yes it matters! The whole point of BALANCE is that they are ALL equally useful/used, also the moment I replied to your page here, I made my own suggestion to balance every healing prayers skill - Talamare 09:48, 20 September 2009 (UTC) . Yes. It. Was. And probably still is. It's funny that you say monking requires great skill when this skill completely deviates from that philosophy.--118.90.78.237 16:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * All other non elites were balanced for years ago, when damage was less, which is why they don't compare, I think. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 04:44, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * eiter Patient spirit needed a nerf (and so does damage in general) or every other heal needs a buff, simple as that Talamare 04:51, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The fact that something outheals something else doesn't matter. If you want to play that game, every single healing skill in the game needs a nerf because it's more useful than orison. Like I said, you can't significantly nerf healing like that, while leaving damage the way it is, it was a mistake. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 09:15, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Why you hink the damage is too much compared to heal skills? It is very rare a skill that do more than 100 armor ignoring damage, but all healing skill do that, of cource with some conditions (Divine Favor, and condition of ritualist skills). Maybe the problem are the aoe skills, but in this case they have to boost aoe heals not single.Ciotto 09:20, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You say it is rare for a skill to do more than 100 damage, correct? What about this  this  this  this  this  this  this  this  this  this  this or  this. As you can tell, I've just gone through a lot of well known builds, like SF, RtL, most assassins, staff sins, most dervishes, Mind Blast, AoE spike eles, etc. You could say that you see those things fairly often in arenas, so my question to you is, what game are you playing, where damage rarely does more than 100, and doesn't outstrip healing? I want to play too. --  Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 09:44, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "The fact that something outheals something else doesn't matter. If you want to play that game, every single healing skill in the game needs a nerf because it's more useful than orison."
 * That's nice that you're making your own suggestion, and I'm glad that you know what balance is. That is not the point here, the point is that you cannot go from no balance to complete balance. Yes, you are right in your definition, but that is not the point. If you balance every heal according to that philosophy, right now, without touching damage, healing through monks will be destroyed. The point is that Anet tried to balance a heal according to the way damage was years of power creep ago, which was a mistake. I agree that one heal should be as useful in a given situation as the next, but you cannot achieve that by nerfing one of a few core heals that you can count on one hand, and nerfing anti melee in the same update, and expect balance. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 10:00, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "Needs a full revert, it was not OP in any way"
 * Okay, if you think the skill was that overpowered, I want you to go into any pvp arena you care to name, take something like HB as your elite, and PS as your main heal, and orison or something, and stay on a 40/40 healing set. Spam away, you aren't going to do well at all. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 21:42, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Just because you might not be able to keep up a team using this skill alone does not mean its not OP (though I have won RA matches using nothing but RoF). A heal thats higher than many elites in the line, basically can't be interrupted, and a 2 sec delay that is useful in many circumstances (before a spike, with CoP, etc.) and inconsequential when red barring. Only the recharge is in line with other non-elites currently. Granted most non-elites in the line are a bit underpowered, this skill is just silly. Revert to this makes no sense, especially when the recharge nerf to it barely does anything. -- [[Image:User Staples sig icon.png|18px ]] Staples - talk  15:43, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Except halving the amount of times you can use one of two or three viable non elite heals left, yeah, you could call that nothing, if you wanted, but you'd be wrong. Thank you for proving my point that Anet nerfed one of a very few heals still alive, for no reason whatsoever. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 19:11, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what this above statement means. And guess what, after the nerf, Patient is still the most viable non-elite heal in the game. Let me make this simple: very large unconditional heal + 1/4 sec cast time + standard recharge + semi-useful OR inconsequential delay = MOST POWERFUL HEAL IN TEH GAME. Seriously, this is probably equally as good as WoH (which is also too strong). I don't know what kind of point that I proved except that they didn't hit this skill hard enough. -- [[Image:User Staples sig icon.png|18px ]] Staples - talk  19:54, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Staples, Ive had the same discussion with Reckoning in the past, he just doesnt understand -Talamare-   feedback  20:32, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Talamare, the fact remains that I have countered you in every point that you have made, which is very close to no points at all. Unless you have something to contribute, kindly do not type. Staples, you are viewing balanced and OP according to healing alone, which could be called tunnel vision. When viewed with sources of damage in the picture, WoH is somewhat close to balanced right now (nowhere near OP) and PS is now underpowered, like the rest of the non elite heals. Comparing it's recharge to them just proves my point. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 22:50, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No. Just no. Granted, damage especially from the midline and from Primal, are really the biggest problems right now. But these skills are STILL strong compared to the current state of the game. Part of the reason that Spirit Bond is considered optional on many bars and Prot spirit shifted out of the meta entirely is because of three big reasons.
 * the push for higher armor over health
 * damage is coming in more small packets instead of a few big ones
 * healing (WoH, Patient, and to a very small extent sig of rejuv) mop up SO MUCH DAMAGE.
 * It is not hard anymore to make peoples health bars go up, so its not as much of a worry when they start to get low. I am done with this because given your arguments on this and PnH, I can only come to the conclusion that you are most definitely a troll that hasn't realized it yet. -- [[Image:User Staples sig icon.png|18px ]] Staples - talk  23:25, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I am all for an 8 second recharge.--Underwood 23:31, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I can honestly say that this is the first time I think anyone's response to me has been TOTALLY wrong. Primal is not the biggest problem. Those healing skills are not strong at all compared to the current state of the game. If armor is higher, spirit bond has less of a chance to trigger, and people are not taking higher armor over health. Damage is not coming in more small packets instead of a few big ones. Just to name a few, Searing Flames, Wounding Strike, Ride the Lightning, Lightning Strike, Liquid Flame, etc etc etc. Healing does mop up a lot of damage, but nowhere near close to keeping up with damage. It is much more difficult to monk now than at any other time in GW's history. Are we playing the same game? -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 23:32, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, if damage is coming in small packets, why the hell would you take spirit bond OR prot spirit? I rest my case. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 23:33, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, people ARE taking higher armor over health. Monks use disciples, for instance. The problem with nerfing patient is that it hurts to monk vs hexway. Sig hum on woh = GG team because your only other heals are patient and sig rejuv. Also, Staples is saying that spirit bond is OPTIONAL now, not not compulsory to keep a team up. Not that people are bring SB/PS. Pika Fan 23:36, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Either way, the overall point he makes is incorrect, and hexes are inclusive to the damage I mentioned, I shouldn't have said damage, more like offence in general. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 23:45, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Pika, I do agree it does hurt a bit against hexes (which also need to be toned down). Reckoning, I'm not even going to address your bull anymore. -- [[Image:User Staples sig icon.png|18px ]] Staples - talk  00:01, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm glad you get all butthurt when you get proven wrong, that totally makes you different from all the other morons that think they're smart on this wiki. < Sarcasm here, for those of you that didn't pick up on it. -- Tha Reckoning   00:13, 25 September 2009 (UTC) By counter every point you mean mindlessly repeated "" when I was constantly trying to make you understand that it wasnt the point, the point was that its an OP heal... as in  -Talamare-   feedback  05:42, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Because obviously, you must be the only smart one here. Your suggestions are just SOOO beyond everyone's comprehension. That must be why NOT A SINGLE PERSON thats posted on this talk agrees with it. BTW, if you even played this game currently (according to your userpage, you don't), you would know that nobody runs any of these mentioned skills in standard GvG builds. Anybody could name off spells that deal damage over SB. Are they used now. No. You are hardly proving anything, let alone proving that monking is harder now than it used to be (see BLight and BoonProt days where energy management skills on monk bars were crucial and healing 90-115 cost 7-10 energy) and that Patient is not OP. Referencing damage skills that aren't currently run, some of which aren't even problems at all (Lightning Strike? seriously?) does not help your case. I will grant you that offense is strong and some of the only things keeping it in line right now are WoH and Patient (even after a nerf, AMAZING!). But rebuffing Patient, and even buffing other healing skills to match damage is not the correct solution. NERF THE OFFENSIVE SOURCES! When both damage and healing are very strong, the game degenerates into matches that are completely built around dishing out damage, and minimally about using smart forms of protection and/or shutdown. What kind of game do you want to play? -- [[Image:User Staples sig icon.png|18px ]] Staples - talk  04:12, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "Talamare, the fact remains that I have countered you in every point that you have made"
 * Look I'm not wasting my time trying to convince you of anything. When several great monks (Shard, Pika) have also shared my stance, and they failed to get anything through that thick skull of yours, I realized that any time spent trying to make you see reason is time wasted. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 06:29, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * quote where shard agreed with you -Talamare-   feedback  07:25, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Could we all just agree to ignore Talamare from now because he/she doesn't make any sense? Pika Fan 13:18, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I'm gonna pay to have T shirts made for all of XVII, that say "I'm with Pika" -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 13:54, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If I dont make sense, you dont understand english -Talamare-   feedback  18:24, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Then obviously you're the only one here speaking the English language, because no one seems to understand you. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 18:26, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Sigh I really dont know why I bother but Ill explain the final time
 * Patient Spirit
 * Heal amount - Highest per energy in the game unconditional for healing prayers
 * Cast time - 1/4 cast means uninterruptable
 * Recharge - Above Average
 * Stay with me now
 * The change they did
 * Patient Spirit
 * Heal amount - Highest per energy in the game unconditional for healing prayers
 * Cast time - 1/4 cast means uninterruptable
 * Recharge - Average
 * Meaning they gave it a tiny nerf its still the probably 50% better then any other healing prayer skill only Dwayna Kiss coming close, Ill keep explaining if you want if you managed to understand that little -Talamare-   feedback  18:37, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * And you fail to understand the notion of context. You view balance like it's only being compared to other things in that attribute. Take off your tunnel vision glasses and see the rest of the game for what it is, like everyone has been telling you to. The fact that it used to be a viable heal is insignificant, it is now underpowered like the rest of the heals, another gimp for monks. It doesnt matter as much right now that it heals more per energy than orison, it matters that it can't keep up with offense now. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 19:15, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Though healing prayers skills do blow except for WoH and Patient, and damage is ridiculous, I still can't see Patient as being underpowered. A 1 sec difference on recharge when it was rarely cast on recharge in the first place should not, and does not, make this skill "underpowered." It makes it slightly worse in the cases where your party is under high pressure (usually only seen in hexes nowadays) and you need a skill to make some of the higher bars go up. Rebuffing this skill won't solve this problem. -- [[Image:User Staples sig icon.png|18px ]] Staples - talk  19:55, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Look, I've explained this a million times, I'm not explaining again. I never said it was to magically fix the game, it's to suspend balance where it is, until the rest can be fixed. This discussion is over. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 19:57, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Its not good to leave a bandaid behind because as long as the bandaid exist they will balance the game towards the bandaid and if they do that then we will only have extremely high power creep... Youre right that damage is far too high, but as long as theres something that can borderline deal with the problem (ie old PS) they will assume it doesnt really need much fixing... if you remove the band aid it will allow them to see how deep the problem is, which will lead to proper balancing of damage... Now yes, I wish they were more competent in balancing and balanced both of them at the same time (ie nerfed PS and every single problematic damage skill) at the same time... Note - If you didnt understand, please say so and Ill reword it as tho I was speaking to a toddler -Talamare-   feedback  20:11, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

You fool, your insolence is really starting to piss me off. Stop bleating your useless nonsense over and over like a half slaughtered goat. You've been proven wrong, and it's completely obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about, and you obscenely miss the point of everything anyone says to you, just like Staples. I'm starting to wish for Igor back, at least he knew that everyone else thought he was a moron, you clowns have no clue. Stop representing yourself as superiors and stop being ignorant enough to believe that. Unless you can make a point, stop your blibbering. You bring no new topics to the table, go find something else to do, I said the discussion is over. -- Tha Reckoning   20:59, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * sigh, You really dont understand, I pity you -Talamare-   feedback  21:06, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * ...Are you on drugs? -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 21:10, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I fail to see where anything has been proven in this thread except that none of us can stop until we get the last word. -- [[Image:User Staples sig icon.png|18px ]] Staples - talk  21:27, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not just this thread, look around the feedback space, Talamare has been making moronic suggestions on almost all of my pages, and his own. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 21:28, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * half your suggestions are smiters boons -Talamare-   feedback  22:18, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh I remember this -Talamare-   feedback  22:22, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you done making a fool out of yourself? I have been so kind to respond to your wacky ideas thus far, consider that kindness gone. Enjoy talking with yourself. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 22:31, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

tl;dr
Heals should be balanced according to damage, not other healing. If other healing isn't keeping up with damage, it needs to be buffed or damage needs to be nerfed (preferably the latter, since the former leads to power creep).  is for  Raine,   etc.  18:24, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

On an unrelated note
Spirit Burn is like 102 damage now, ups.  is for  Raine,   etc.  18:24, 3 March 2010 (UTC)