User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Update20071012

General Update
Changes fail. SoR/Agonizing/SoD nerfs were too severe/unnecessary. Readem 21:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it's pretty earily to tell, the goal of these changes where to push people away from passive defense, and hyper defensive builds. but yes I did hit these skills hard and I hope it has an effect on the current meta by slowing down physical damage and block meta. ~Izzy @-&#39; 22:10, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Regardless of the effect these changes have on GvG (indeed early to tell), I find it disappointing that HvH seems to have been ignored completely. Rend Enchantments was buffed and now has the same recharge as SP, Rigor Mortis was buffed to the point where it's better than Expose Defenses and perfect for the N/Rt spiritway builds. This effectively makes SP sins stronger, while Recall did not have its range reduced so nothing will change there. At this point HvH is just not worth playing anymore, which is a shame since I think it did have the potential to become a unique format that would have been ideal to introduce new people to PvP... --Draikin 22:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * HvH is pretty low on the totem pole because it's a 1v1 formate it's going to get the tale end of the balance changes, the problems with HvH are deep in the mechanics of the game type I've been working on some fixes, but they need a lot of testing. Most balance changes are based around GvG and HA, HvH being a 4v4 Game type ends up getting the shaft on a lot of these changes, it's a shame but it's how the structure is set up. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:16, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * At the every least can't something be done about Recall? --Draikin 01:26, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I have mixed feelings about this update. You hit some of the right things, but your buffs were pretty random and don't really open up any new possibilities. Deadly paradox is still an eyesore that prevents you from balancing DA/SA properly. The nerf to wearying strike won't do a thing to weaken Melandru's and you'll still see trees running around instagibbing people until the core problem is fixed.

I would have liked to see some of the underused warrior elites get buffs (cleave, quivering blade, coward, etc). Also, I was hoping for the buffs to fox fangs & jagged strike that you talked about last time.

Basically I agree with Ensign, this update will mainly constrain the (already limited) build variety in the game. Teams probably won't run one paragon anymore and no more fast cast wards, and SoR runners, but that's about it. --Symbol 23:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Make Shadow Fang 30 second recharge imo Kenshin 02:58, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I think a great deal of these were bad changes. Readem 04:20, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I say, this is the has been the most disappointing "balance" I've seen yet. There's still countless useless skills that need buff... (69.237.180.96 04:31, 13 October 2007 (UTC))
 * Hey, they buffed KEYSTONE SIGNET. --Zarfol 04:34, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * woohoo? (69.237.180.96 04:41, 13 October 2007 (UTC))
 * My point exactly. Nerfs go out then they come and do a simple OMG shorten recharge to keystone signet as a consolation prize or something. How bout buffing some other TERRIBLE elites for a change? Expert's Dexterity? Aura of Faith? Melandru's Arrows? Boon signet? Half the energy management elites? Don't buff Primal Rage though. That skill is def. nearing overpoweredness.--Zarfol 04:51, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Please don't listen to these guys, the majority of top level players want to see an end to this power creep rather than buffing all the countless useless elites that are always going to be either useless or broken. Theres still a lot of stuff that really needed to be nerfed to make the game better that for some reason you didn't touch, for example the instagib sins are still broken as are the unblockable SA sins and mel dervs. It seems like you would rather keep a broken build around so these classes see play than try sending the class in a different direction ie. make assassin utility skills viable, make derv midline casters viable like what Stepn ran in the beta event. I'm just baffled as to why you don't just do exactly what people like Ensign tell you to when they play the game more and understand the game more than you do. That said there were some reasonable changes like the change to ward melee, the meta was also changing at around the time you did the skill balance so I can understand some conservativeness, hopefully we will see another balance in a couple of weeks. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:210.11.145.241.
 * O please. Mr. Isaiah understands the game way more than Ensign ever will. Go Izzy! This skill update was Excellent with a capital E. Keep the updates coming Izzy, the unique updates keep the game interesting regardless of what they are. 70.132.2.120 08:59, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

No nerf for the N/Rt infinite-freakin-energy power healers? Gotta be kidding me...its one of the most acutely obvious annoyances in the game and its been plaguing PvP for far too long. - Aeon Supernova 11:29, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * They obvously felt that nerfing Agonixing to 1 second was waaaaaaay more important! lol.  /fail  -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 13:55, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with most of the other players on here that this set of skill balancing seemed not to be a very good one in general. I will admit that some of the balancing was very well done, but in other areas problems where just over looked. I'll admit that it must take months of planning before a skill balance is initiated, so that in that way you do not alienate to many players or miss an important combonations to balance. I just want to ssay that I am a bit dissapointed with the way this balance turned out, but I am not a skill balancer and I am only one of over four million players (congratz ANet). --Zail 13 October 2007

Missing a Nerf on this one: It's really annoying in RA/TA. - TeleTeddy 18:40, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem with that build is Deadly Paradox alone. The other skills are fine if Deadly Paradox did not give half casting time. --Shadetz X 23:20, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * If anything, the nerf to Mantra of Recovery shows why Deadly Paradox should not be touched. It's a fantasy out there for those who think when a skill like this gets nerfed that all related skills will get buffed to compensate. Many skills that were not overpowered under the old MoR are nerfed by extension because they were not buffed. Guilt and Shame are just two examples, and it could be eons before they get looked at. Buffing a ton of skills all at once just doesn't happen. Not to mention that fact that Deadly Paradox builds are effective but fine just the way they are. He's an Assassin. Plenty of existing defenses work fine against the setup; no one's begging for Hammer KD builds to get nerfed as far as I can tell. arredondo 18:45, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That's because a hammer KD warrior has to hit in melee combat (--> plenty of countermeasures available). That's because a hammer KD warrior needs to build up adrenaline first (--> plenty of time to apply those countermeasures). If you really think A/Mo SoJ Assassins aren't overpowered, please read the according discussions. - TeleTeddy 08:47, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Decent update in general, but though it has increased some build variation (esurge, signets), it completely killed other variants (SoR runner). Skill balance should bring about more variations without completely destroying previously used bars that aren't overpowered in the first place. Holymasamune 09:00, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

All
Considering this was changed since some of the spirit-counter stuff was too narrow, will those said skills be changed in the way they work sometime soon?--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 21:48, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Decreased the Health of all Spirits by 50; allowed Burning to affect Spirits.
 * As far as I know the damage for Ebon Hawk and Stoning hasn't been changed, it already was that much. Nicky Silverstar 21:58, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * They changed the low-end damage, but not the attribute-15 values. Same with Enervating Charge.
 * The goal was to make them more effective at cross classing attribs. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:17, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I also want to know what's up with the spirit change. All it has done is make the Ritualist class less effective all-around, and make spirits extremely vulnerable to Searing Flames.  It seems fairly arbitrary on its own, so surely there are other changes in store? I mean, aside from the equally arbitrary NR change. (I don't sign comments) 23:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I seen the spirit nerf at the top, and thought, "Hey, they must have buffed the spirits or spawning power". After finishing reading the whole update, I realized that ritualists were untouched, and Paragons only received nerfs. Disappointed with skill changes, the rest of the update was great though. --Deathwing 23:49, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see, thanks for the explanation Izzy. Nicky Silverstar 05:47, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Agony was barely playable anywhere before, but worth considering. Rejuvenation was unplayable everywhere except potentially 4v4, where I still question the judgment of bringing it.  Now, they're even worse?  The global spirit change should not have come without also tweaking most spirits whose effects are based on spirit health.

With this change, a whole class is seriously nerfed: Many Ritualist skills depend on spirits, and while it is good that spirits can be destroyed more easily now, side-effects should be considered. Negative effects on skills that need spirits in reach should be lessened (sacrificing Health mostly), the amount of life lost on defensive spirits should be reduced in order to compensate for lower health, etc pp. On top of that, I don't like the idea of burning spirits: Burning already is a very powerful condition - it shouldn't be buffed further. - TeleTeddy 18:33, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest upping Agony and Rejuvenation to level 1...10, and shaving off recharge on Rejuvenation to 15-20 seconds while you're at it. Rejuvenation's going to need more looking at than that, but it's a start.  Union to level 1...10 as well, or 3...10 so that it doesn't hit 11 at 16 if adding on 10 more health in addition to the armor bonus bothers you.
 * Earthbind probably doesn't need it, but a simple 50...20 would even out the scaling while restoring its triggers. Shelter's a bit scary in the passive defense department, but after its past nerfs, it really didn't need one less trigger.  Consider reducing health loss to 70...40 instead of raising its level?
 * Wanderlust is rather annoying, but 75...45 would help it out if you want to restore that extra trigger.
 * Or, I could be missing the point, and the intention was to simultaneously also hit the passive Spirit Spam Rit builds in general, because of the N/Rt's. In which case, consider hitting Agony and Rejuvenation anyway, as well as looking at moving Signet of Binding to Spawning Power, and giving it a little recharge buff for the Rt/X's not running the Soul Reaping engine?  If they're investing in dual Communing/Spawning, at least then they're not splashing heavily in Channeling or Restoration - or both. MA Anathe 07:01, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I saw this update as a big nerf to defense in general. Monks got nerfed directly and indirectly by increasing recharge time of some core elites and boosting the effectiveness of enchantment removals. Ritualist got the boot from a decrease in spirit's health without a compensation on spawning power effects. Decrease in spirit's health is a decrease in spawning power's effectiveness in general as all spirits' health will have lower start values. The game is currently in favor of fast paced offense. Enchantments, hexes, spirits and wards are nerfed and melee are buffed. This all sum up to unskilled tanks suddenly find themselves awesome because it is now easier to get away from their mindless bashing skills. --Shadetz X 10:38, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The game is in no way in favor of a fast-paced offense, unless you consider fast-paced being dual DA, a bsurge ele, and a mes with mor + ward vs melee (which is still entirely possible btw, thanks for buffing pdrain... sorta cancelled out your own nerfs :/). Fast-paced offenses are impossible when you can't hit a damn thing.
 * All in all, this (spirit tweak) was a weak attempt to nerf spiritway; combined with the Nature's Renewal level reduction, spirit hunting should be easier. Those changes, however, miss the point completely; the backline of the build still has ridiculous energy management (via the still-broken soul reaping), the "midline" have an assload of traps (most are dual smoke now) and warmonger/splinter weapons for the offense, which have an unending, easily maintainable IAS/speed buff. Those are the problems with the build, not the spirits; a nerf of, say, any one of those would affect the performance of the build. But, naturally, the nerfs of what is actually overpowered didn't come. - Auron 14:17, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The only solutions I can think of are removing the Health loss and reducing the power of the effects, converting the rituals to wards or adding more PvE skills. -- Gordon Ecker 09:40, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I kinda like my suggestion a while ago that each spirit cause health degen on the person that bound them. Like a crazy maintained enchantment. These changes just made certain spirits last less and Searing Flames more popular. No new strategies, just more of the same old gameplay. hehe --Redfeather 16:34, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * A List of Ritualist skills, that are affected by this nerf: Agony, Displacement, Earthbind, Essence Strike, Feast of Souls, Gaze from Beyond, Ghostly Haste, Ghostmirror Light, Lamentation, Mend Body and Soul, Offering of Spirit, Painful Bond, Rejuvenation, Rupture Soul, Shelter, Signet of Spirits, Spirit Burn, Spirit Channeling, Spirit Light, Spirit Light Weapon, Spirit Siphon, Spirit Transfer, Spirit to Flesh, Spiritleech Aura, Union, Wanderlust.
 * All these skills either target/require allied spirits (the existence of which is much more difficult to ensure now, especially if you don't bring huge amounts of spirits), or the skill's effect drains life from an allied spirit (so the effect won't work as often as it used to). If you really want to keep this change (lower life of spirits), you have to think about the skills on this list, they didn't deserve a nerf, but they got one. - TeleTeddy 22:24, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Now I know mending has some use on 55 monk bars, but where am I supposed to bring Displacement or Union? I will still bring shelter because even if it dies quickly the damage negated is worth it but the other two are just dead weight - long cast time, rehcarge, usually uses an elite to be cast, occupies one of your characters to use effectively and minimal effect. I'm tired of skill updates telling me how to not use a skill, how a skill isn't supposed to be used. How about we get an update which tells us how to use a skill? It doesn't matter if passive defense is a function the game is moveing away from, displacement is still a skill, it's still in the game and it needs its place - however that is done - Aegis and Wards badly own this. Spirits suck now, I can 1 hit almost any spirit with Burning Arrow now, even if they are "hidden", I suggest dropping all their cast times by 1 second, recharge by half or more and cost by half. That way they are more active and it doesn't matter AS MUCH that they die after one hit (mostly saracasm, they suck now and as long as they stay this way they will always suck). Please stop "balancing" by making half the skills so shit they aren't options otherwise there wasn't much point in giving them to us in the first place. Dancing Gnome 08:37, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Are the stats correct on the wiki page of Shelter? Because if they are, then you don't make sense. You complain about the casting times of Displacement and Union, yet you are willing to bring shelter even though it has an even longer casting time? *confused* Nicky Silverstar 06:15, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, if you're going to make Spirits die faster, at least make them stronger or make those skills that protect spirits stronger (i.e. Spirit Boon Strike, Signet of Creation, Signet of Binding). Lightblade 21:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Assassin

 * increased conditional Health to 65..200.
 * fixed a bug that allowed the use of Golden Fang Strike without a lead attack.
 * increased duration to 6 seconds.

Where are the assassin nerfs? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:210.11.145.241.

Thanks Izzy for giving the Assassin more self healing options. Poor assassins die rather quickly sometimes. ^^ 70.132.2.120 09:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Signet Sins need nerf plz


 * This is just another avoidance of putting in the Shadowstep frequency Assassins could utilize to minimize risk and maximize value. Boosting all their abilities so they can immitate the survival and recovery of other melee professions doesn't improve assassin, it is just a cheap way to balance them without taking serious steps to improve important effects.--BahamutKaiser 03:20, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Shadowstepping is a mechanic that is already severely problematic, partially due to shadowsteps taking away a good portion of the value of positioning(collapsing on that gank is really meaningful when the AoD can just tele back to his team and bring the rest of the split back with them, it's really difficult splitting on burning when you can just have someone run past the sentinels and get back to your base/stand the moment your enemy sends anyone back, etc., also, it really takes skill for a warrior to get to his target on time to spike without giving away the target when all he has to do is press 7(or wherever you have shadow prison/dark prison/death's charge on your bar)). --Edru viransu 22:47, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Euhm...but isn't that exactly the idea behind an assassin? To quickly sneak up on an unexpecting target? 145.94.74.23 07:15, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Like how the idea of an ele is to deal damage? /sarcasm --Edru viransu 07:49, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

People so conveniently overlook the difficulties associated with new features and the lack of attention needed with other professions. Typical response, comfortable with what you have and not willing to weigh evenly the addition of new mechanics. Firstly, the the good portion of value in survival is taken away by a warriors armor, naturally overlooked as the norm, warriors have difficulties like positioning and moving..... obviously, when you using a new profession you change the focus.

Guess what also takes skill, surviving at all with an Assassin, guess whats more risky?, giving away your target or losing your life?, DP isn't a reward.

Wile Shadowsteps can be utilized by others, and are not developed with good counters and opposition, they are still a namestay of the Assassin class. Improvisions to make certain or all shadowsteps less effective for certain other professions is a topic to consider, but not as important as offering effective techniques to Assassin.

Now this isn't a topic on how shadowsteps should be done right in GW, if you want developed insight on the kind of attention it needs you can take this to [User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Underpowered Skills/Assassin] and contribute to the Dark Prison/Deaths Charge topic. Simply put though, the Assassin, along with all added professions, have been developed poorly to fit ignorant opinions on how the game should work, instead of exhaulting new ways to play the game like they were ment to.--BahamutKaiser 22:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Dervish

 * decreased damage to 5..20.
 * 10 less damage, hurray. Where's the nerf to melandru form btw?
 * Not getting one. Izzy only wants every profession in play, if derv is in use because of a broken skill, thats fine (nerf melandru = no point bringing a derv). Personally, i'd nerf all the crap and then buff things, but what do I know.. &mdash; Skuld 11:38, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know why the synergie between this skill and Melandru form is so needed. Having no other deep wound standard skill doesn't really help other elites to be played and at the same time this attack would be too powerfull if it didn't have the weakness condition linked to it. What would happen if we change it to "this attack does no damage but 20 (or a bit more) and inflicts a deep wound -no more weakness-"? Some other skills would need some adjustments regarding this perhaps but it would be a good start to move dervish class to something different. Ichiko 00:25, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * A game isn't balanced if only one skill from a class makes it viable. That's very poor practice and doesn't equate to balance. Dancing Gnome 08:48, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the lesson, your comment is very rich practice and equate to a good game diversity.Ichiko 16:45, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Dervish forms
it would be nice if they were maintainable but didnt give the crazy advantages or would have some drawbacks... its kinda silly to have an elite up ~25% of match (grenth) or ~50%(melandru)... and even a semidecent interrupter can prevent it from being put up in middle of match. For grenth it could be "when you use attack target foe loses 1 enchantment and you lose 20% health" for melandru "you cannot be affected by conditions, but slowed 30%"...
 * Well you would not have to worry about being interrupted with those forms, ill grant you that. Z3ronl 12:11, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Not really, most decent dervs pull back into their owns team's backline and behind some obstacle when putting up forms if there is an interupter, so a ranger would have to be up pretty far, and a mes interupting is asking to be spiked Ax
 * was talking about HA, where backline doesnt really exist.
 * Yeah, remake the skills so they work souly based on HA application, that's smart. How about an effect which is universally stable, and before you say it isn't, these ideas are worse.--BahamutKaiser 20:23, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Elementalist

 * increased damage to 35..65.
 * increased damage to 25..50.
 * Conjure Frost, Conjure Flame, and Conjure Lightning: now directly increase the damage you do when you hit with an attack (previously, they dealt damage as a second, additional strike); decreased damage to 5..20.
 * Very nice, fixes the problems with conjure involving ps and especially rof. Great Change.Ax
 * It's an indirect buff to Reversal of Fortune, Strength of honor, Judge's insight. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 18:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yea on rof, but it was retarded the way it worked before. How so on strength and judge's?Ax
 * Right now typically on a conjure warrior the only use for /E is the conjure + shock. Speccing Strength of honor or Judge's Insight is more viable now than it was before. (Even more so because of mending touch).--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 23:49, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * increased damage to 45..100.
 * I may be a little late with this, but after some serious testing, I believe a recution in casting time would have served this skill a lot better. Nicky Silverstar 08:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * increased damage to 25..50.
 * fixed a bug that increased the projectile speed.
 * Strange wording. I think it is meant that it had a bug with increasing projectile speed of enemy projectiles? --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 16:28, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It's really annoying that Glyph of Swiftness is still bugged. The most projectile spells don't move faster at all. (Lighning Orb, Fireball, Phoenix, .. I tested them all.)


 * decreased recharge time to 10 seconds.
 * Good change. -Void 10:23, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * increased Burning duration to 1..7 seconds.
 * wut?
 * Making a Single SH build work in a team, I suppose thats one real cheap way of dealing with spirits. -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 13:50, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Should have decreased damage a bit to go with the buff to burning, making it more pressure oriented.--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 17:58, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This was a serious neccessity, Rodgorts was better, now if I cast SF 3 times or Rodgorts 2 times, I get about the same effect.... it's alright but I still think I will be choosing longevity over flash.--BahamutKaiser 00:01, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Rodgorts was not better... Rodgorts is 25 energy, 5s recharge, and easy as hell to interrupt. This change was unneeded, let this stupid skill die.--Thelordofblah 06:27, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Need to lower the damage on SF. This skill could even live with a longer burning duration if it had lower damage. But, to be honest, I think it should be killed, along with the rest of the brainless crap still in the game(heroway, sp sins). Shendaar 06:31, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The simple fact that Rodgort's instead of SF allows you to run Mind Blast is enough to make Rodgort's better than SF, tbh. --Edru viransu 06:37, 21 October 2007 (UTC)


 * increased conditional damage to 40..100; increased damage to 25..70.
 * A much needed buff to unconditional damage. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 17:58, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * increased damage to 45..105.
 * This skill is ok, as long as you have a good way to apply weakness (which Earth currently doesn't have). Nicky Silverstar 08:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

After some thought I came to the realization that Ward Against Melee's change is actually quite brilliant. It basically nerfs it for every profession except for the Elementalist, both in duration and in cost. Since many Elementalists combine it with Glyph of Lesser Energy anyway, it may even be considered a buf when combined with both the glyph and Earth Attunement. Nicky Silverstar 13:12, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * increased Energy cost to 15; decreased duration to 5..20 seconds.
 * This barely touched the skill. The only other prof that uses wards is me/e who use mor as their elite, so the duration is a moot point on mesmers, and the energy isnt a big deal bc of gole. This hurt the skill on elementalists more than it did on mesmers. Ax
 * That makes a lot of sense. /sarcasm
 * Does it? I don't have a clue what he is talking about. Can't he write english? Nicky Silverstar 20:12, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Are you guys idiots? Nicky said it hurt non eles using the skill, im saying it doesnt. Mantra of Recovery (mor) makes wards recharge in 33% less (now) time, so the duration nerf doesnt hurt them, and the energy isnt a big deal with e management skills. Learn to read ok?Ax
 * Um, duration does matter when you can't cast it for free every 10 seconds. --Edru viransu 23:05, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Gole takes it down to 5 en, and many mesmers take stuff like power drain or arcane invocation. 15e every 15s is not too bad. It wont be free, but the energy cost still isnt bad.Ax
 * Thanks for the explanation Ax. I don't know all the metagame abbreviations by heart, but now I know what you mean and I know why it hasn't been altered that much. However, it still hurts Mesmers more than it does Elementalists IMO, but I also understand now why positioning is less of an issue when Mesmers use it. Thank you very much. Nicky Silverstar 01:43, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh sorry thought you were just being a jerk. Yes i use a lot of abreviations. Anyway, i think mesmers are hurt less bc many eles triple spec, but they have to have 16 earth to keep it up 100% of the time. Mesmers only have to have 9 or 10 in earth to have it up all the time.Ax
 * I may be a jerk at times, but never intentionally. Maybe the block chance should be scaled as well. That would really fix it except for people who specialize, and they deserve a powerful WAM. Nicky Silverstar 19:24, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Good change. Still fine on eles, harder to bring on mesmers. -Void 10:23, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * One much needed and very well implemented skill change.--Lorekeeper 14:01, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Damage buffs are actually a slight nerf for single attribute users

Most of the damage increases are only for lower attribute levels. At 16, damage is actually slightly lower after the update. --128.195.73.176 09:45, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Mesmer

 * decreased casting time to .25 seconds.
 * Decreasing casting time for a mesmer is not much of a buff. I'd rather see a decrease in recharge time or decrease enchantment duration or energy lost when chantment is cast. Why didn't Shatter Storm get buffed when Gaze of Contempt got a major one?--Shadetz X 10:54, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I hope this was only the beginning of buffs for Air of Disenchantment. Right now it is adjacent range, which basically means the only thing it will really affect is heal balls and multiple dervishes. You might as well just use a Dervish with Winds of Disenchantment for those situations...--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 17:30, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I played around with this a bit. 10 energy cost and 20 recharge still makes this a bad enchantment removal option. No one use this skill to lengthen casting time.--Shadetz X 03:04, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Izzy, what this change is trying to do? I don't think it will alter bars that normally would have brought a self heal. It just seems to lower those bars' eps. :/ --Redfeather 02:34, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * decreased Energy cost to 10; decreased Energy returned to 7..15; added a heal effect of 40..120 when an Enchantment is removed.
 * I like this change a lot but Strip Enchantment just seems so worthless now in comparison to Drain Enchantment!
 * This is the only change that I really didn't like. Drain enchantment is now useless. Too weak for energy management, too conditional and too long of a recharge time for a self-heal, and not that great at enchantment removal. Unless its changed again, this one will be coming off of all my builds.

70.132.2.120 09:29, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * decreased Energy cost to 10; decreased casting time to 1 second; increased damage to 30..120; fixed a bug that caused multiple hits of damage when stacked.
 * I tried this out. Although Enchanter's Conundrum and Shatter Delusion deals hefty damage, the Energy Surge and Energy Burn combo is better because it deals good damage and strips 16 energy. --Shadetz X 03:04, 18 October 2007 (UTC)


 * increased damage multiplier to 12.
 * increased damage multiplier to 12..
 * Very nice; thank you Izzy for giving Mesmers more damage options. 70.132.2.120 09:29, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

It can be made useful now in at least RA and PVE. :D --Redfeather 02:16, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * decreased recharge time to 5 seconds.
 * Explain Please? Conditions are easily removed in RA and this takes your elite slot. What do you need to extend in PVE either? Just reapply the condition and save your elite slot for something actually useful.--Zarfol 03:58, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * i like this change. i actually made a good build with it :) Mashav 09:06, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * increased recharge time to 12 seconds.
 * Why? Ichiko 02:54, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This is very strong in GvG and almost guarantees a kill on a monk under pressure by melee. --Shadetz X 23:30, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Because all other hex removal with an additional effect has a 12 second recharge and 5 energy cost. This also doesn't have to go on the monk and has an amazingly good skill effect. --96.233.54.238 21:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

So?--96.233.54.238 21:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * decreased Energy cost to 5.
 * decreased recharge time to 15 seconds.
 * This skill takes 0 skill to use, why buff it? Clumsiness and ineptitude are ridiculous now. You either need to nerf the recharge or make the duration shorter so that it's more of a player skill type skill. Warriors have to attack through these skills even if they know its on them and there's no effective counter.
 * I think it's great for Mesmers to have more powerful blinding options. Now Ineptitude might be on par with Blinding Surge. ^^

70.132.2.120 09:29, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Ineptitude and clumsiness take no skill to use? They're pretty much like BSurge, spammable, costly, active melee shutdown. --Edru viransu 18:15, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * They don't because with b-surge you put blind on in 3/4s and observe movement of enemy melees, with Ineptitude you just keep the hex on by spamming it and that's it. Maybe lower the damage on this and Clumsiness now... 91.155.175.109 09:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * If someone spams ineptitude and clumsiness(one of which is nearly useless unless you hit their DW or something with it, the other is 15 second recharge), it's probably just that that person is bad, just like people can spam BSurge on recharge if they want, for a while. I'm failing to see how skills that stop one attack(clumsiness) or maybe three at most attacks with longer recharge than BSurge(ineptitude) are inherently more a mindless spam skill than BSurge. --Edru viransu 12:12, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well bsurge doesn't do anywhere near as much damage, is elite and has a longer cast time. It's mostly clumsiness that I have a problem with but at the same time i'm not saying I don't think bsurge should be toned down either.
 * BSurge has a shorter cast time than clumsiness. Clumsiness stops one attack and does some damage that just gets mopped up by LoD and can't be used to spike. The impact of the damage from clumsiness is pretty much just that they have to cancel frenzy a little more often or frenzy a little less, if you somehow have the energy to spam it enough. --Edru viransu 16:18, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * decreased recharge time to 10 seconds.
 * This is my favorite update; 10 seconds recharge really opens up some new possibilities with signets. ^^ 70.132.2.120 09:29, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * So Basically keystone signet in its current state (10 second recharge) is over-powered. You can combine it with mantra of inscriptions, and every 5 seconds you have all of your signets recharged.. Why is this bad? skills such as: Signet of distraction, Signet of Weariness, Signet of humility are all currently balanced due to recharge times take away the recharge, and spam them every 5 seconds You now have a broken GROUP of skills.. Now your pulling 8 energy AOE every 5 seconds..... Shutting down an elite for 15 seconds every 5 seconds.. disabling a spell for 24 seconds Every 5 seconds. Give this combo a week being out there... and it will be abused beyond belief. It may be your favorite update.... but it sure is game breaking.... --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:24.109.3.127.
 * learn to sign your comments and do not mix them up with mine. 70.132.2.120 01:21, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Seems reasonable to me, elite use of normal signets by using an elite ability simply to use other signets well, it obviously needs to offer elite value to normal signets...--BahamutKaiser 00:07, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * What if mesmers start using sybomlic strike!  A nti  22:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Worst change in the entire update, signet bars with keystone signet are completely broken. I'm really at a loss as to how you could buff this skill after conceding that MoR broke skills that were balanced by recharge.
 * Way overpowered. Being able to take an elite or two out of the game, disrupt, AoE e-deny, deal damage, and provide support every 10ish seconds is insane. Great for opening up possibilities, but as it stands, it's way too strong. Maybe up casting time to 2 seconds and recharge to 20 seconds. That way it'll be useful but not insanely overpowered. Holymasamune 08:57, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That's as bad as it used to be Holymasamune. I really feel that Isaiah is trying to encourage all signet builds, but keystone really hasn't done that in the past. This current form though is going to lead to abuse. I'd love to use all signet bars, but the problem with them is that signets are really spread around a number of attributes and the builds are very difficult to make effective due to limited roles all signet builds can play without spreading your points so thin.
 * I think Keystone might benefit from a functionality change. Although I'm not sure how well it would be recieved here is an idea.
 * Keystone Signet (1s, 10s)The next Signets activated use an attribute level equal to +2 for each signet you have equipped. All of your non-Signet skills are disabled for  seconds.
 * It's like a Signet of Illusions specifically focusing on increasing the versatility of all signet builds rather than spamability. We already have skills that handle recharge. The stacking multiple rechage modifiers makes things hairy to balance. --Redfeather 12:25, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it is powerful, but not over powered. Anyone who brings one of those skills is going to get completely shut down by one hex. I definitely don't think the function should change, though I could accept something like lose energy/health for each signet recharged or something similar to help balance it.
 * 1 hex? so now people are forced to run a hex build to make the 1 hex stick? Every counter to this is extremely narrow.
 * Go get em tiger Primal Echoes, Ignorance, Complicate, Panic , Icy Prism, Rust.
 * Do we have to revert this skill into uselessness again because it works too well with Signet of Weariness & Signet of Humility ? This skill makes many signets viable which would never be used in a build. It would be better if Signet of Weariness & Signet of Humility would be disabled fo 10 seconds or more when used. If you nerf this then reduce the recharge of dmg signets plz. 16 October 2007
 * It's Keystone Signet's functionality that make it difficult to promote. It either borders on overpowered or not worth using as an elite. How come nodody commented on my suggestion? The actual numbers are just thrown in there because it gives me an error if I don't, but maybe the function is something that would be nice to have available in game? --Redfeather 01:59, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The issue is that it works too well with Mantra of Inscriptions, while being worse than Mantra of Inscriptions on its own. -Ensign 00:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Problem would be solved if this skill removes any stance on the user. --Shadetz X 13:17, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That's a nice idea! I really like that - if you couldn't use any stances with Keystone Signet, you could reduce its recharge back to 10s (or maybe 12). - TeleTeddy 10:28, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That would be horrible... --68.102.128.17 11:20, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Why not 15 seconds recharge / 2 second cast? (Then its generally easy to interupt in PvP, but still viable (not overpowered) in PvE rather then being useless in the shelf--68.102.128.17 03:42, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

This was pretty unexpected. This skill is one of the really cool things that Mesmers can do that is effective too. If this change is going to stick, how about increasing the duration cap to 30 seconds? Cross-attributes and all that jazz.--Skye Marin 23:57, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * decreased recharge reduction to 33%.
 * This wasn't unexpected, it takes no skill to use mor yet it was one of the best mesmer elites out there. A lot of skills are balanced by recharge and this breaks that balance.
 * The 33% is not so bad. I just wish the duration was bumped up a few seconds. I think it would be okay then. --Redfeather 02:08, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The nerf to Mantra of Recovery makes underpowered AND unused mesmer skills like Chaos Storm even worse. 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I am so glad Mantra of Recovery was changed and with the other elite changes, all mesmers will now have to see which elite(s) are the best again. ^^ 70.132.2.120 09:29, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Shame/Guilt ought to be changed accordingly to 20-25 second recharge instead of 30. 1/3 off means it is 20 second recharge, when it used to be 15 recharge under MoR. Other than those two skills, MoR's nerf didn't change that much. For example 1/3 off 15 seconds is 10 seconds instead of 7.5 under old MoR. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 16:20, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Good change, now do the same to deadly paradox, except maybe change that to 25%. Holymasamune 08:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't mind this one so much, but only if you go back and fix all the mesmer skills that had huge recharge times to compensate for this. I understand that you tried to weaken this to get mesmers to use other elites, but you didn't buff the other elites enough to make them useable. Mesmers always brought this elite because all our skills were balanced as if we had it, so it was either bring it, or suffer huge recharge times.
 * My comment is that is any MoR build breaking the PvP balance, if not, why balance for the sake of balancing and make people unhappy and destroy so many interesting mesmer builds?

Now that the effect isn't all that spectacular, this should have its uptime increased. 33% recharge boosts with downtime aren't elite material. -Ensign 00:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Now that MoR is at 33%, skills that were balanced around 50% in mind (Mistrust, Guilt, Shame) could stand to be slightly buffed. In particular, I'd suggest Mistrust to 5e, and all three having a scaling duration from .  Diversion's still sufficiently powerful to stay at 12r, Shame might not need buffing, but I haven't seen Guilt since the Prophecies-only days, or Mistrust at all. ~Seef II &lt;☎|۞&gt; 06:16, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Power leak is now retarded. this skill makes small prots with a one second cast useless.. your monks just get camped by mes's who spam pleak on recharge on your gaurdian or soa...
 * decreased recharge time to 20 seconds.
 * decreased recharge time to 12 seconds.
 * Go interupts! --96.233.54.238 21:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)


 * decreased Energy cost to 5.
 * Yes, thank you for the reduced wait times Izzy. 70.132.2.120 09:29, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * fixed a bug that prevented the Health Bar from turning purple.
 * increased the number of Spells affected to 3.
 * I can see this one being abused ~ Kurd [[Image:User Kurd sig.png]] 21:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Please tell me the crazy amount of bugs in this skill since it was introduced have been fixed. If not, why keep buffing it when it doesn't work right? arredondo 23:51, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Arredondo is gonna kill me but this skill is pretty damn good. I wonder why it got buffed to 3? Even if it went back to 2 spells and the several bugs got fixed it would be cool. Bugs I know of include recasting SoI does not reset spell count. SoI does not effect many secondary effects of spells. Those secondary effects are done at 0 attribute level. :O --Redfeather 02:12, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, I do think it's a good elite and I was using a lot since the last buff, but it's kind of an order of operations thing with me. Why not fix the skill while buffing it? It makes no sense. The elite is still flawed. Nothing we listed in Izzy's discussion page under Misc. Tweaks was fixed. Another spell I found tonight that doesn't work is Incendiary Bonds. You get the damage but never more than 1s of Burning despite L16 in Illusion. arredondo 07:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think this Signet of Illusions change will allow some interesting builds to be created. 70.132.2.120 09:29, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * would be a nice update, if SoI weren't so buggy. Once it is fixed to actually work, I will use it. (right now, it doesnt have all variables in a spell use illusion, only the first one).

Signet of Illusions needs a one second cast time if it's to be attractive. You can't build a character around interrupt bait. 3 spells is about where the effect should be. -Ensign 00:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)


 * decreased recharge time to 10 seconds.
 * yes this update is perfect. 70.132.2.120 09:29, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It still sucks. A lot better options out there for blinding people. --96.233.54.238 21:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Monk

 * increased recharge time to 10 seconds; increased duration to 3..10 seconds.
 * Don't like this change. SoD is one of the few remaining skills that takes skill to use. Plus, a monk spamming SoD on its 5 second recharge is bad anyways. Maybe strike a balance and change recharge to 8 and duration to scale with it? Holymasamune 09:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Good change, SoD surely wasn't healthy for the game. -Void 10:17, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Prot monks in GvG are of the red bar goes up variety now, SoD was one of the rare red bars stay up type of prots that was necessary to counter the dominance of physical dmg. If it was overpowered at all, it is now underpowered... dont forget teams are now lacking the perma ward melees now, and ward melee on ele midliners isnt hard to shutdown. It really wasnt necessary to take out so many layers of the block wall, its just a pile of bricks now. Revert SoD to a 6-7s recharge, or reduce the block rate to 50% with the old 5s recharge. Or how about buffing the rest of the skills in the prot line. lifesheath could use a nice boost, perhaps a lower recharge, faster cast time and more dmg negation. Shielding hands could use some help. Prot monks need to be able to prot or physicals are just going to run rampant. And by the looks of things they already are especialy with the lack of any defensive reliable defensive layers.--Lorekeeper 13:59, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Have you played since the update? Obviously not. The Block Wall is no longer a wall you're right, but who wants to attack a wall all day, there are still plenty of ways to block and they do seem more balanced now. The Balance to paragons has balnced the physicals better leading to this IMO better playstyle. (It's just a shame so many other skills got so broken it messed the update up so much) -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 02:34, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Reduce armor on SoR to 24 and I would be happy Kenshin 03:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * increased recharge time to 12 seconds.
 * No.--Thelordofblah 05:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * No. --Deathwing 05:15, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Kenshin is 10 times better then you guys fyi. Readem  07:33, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * At instagib assassin and hero battles maybe.
 * Don't really care if you think he is better than me. --Deathwing 16:45, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Who the hell is Kenshin? and I dont care if you think hes better, its a stupid suggestion. Unless he meant 24 armor with the old, old recharge, then i agree, but otherwise, no.--Thelordofblah 06:53, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd live with this skill having an 8 second recharge and one lower pip of regen. Maybe even have armor scale with prot prayers. Holymasamune 09:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Bad change, should be reversed or 10r. Before the patch, unless you were 100% sure your enemy will fight 8vs8, you could bring an Elementalist, a Ritualist or a Monk. Now you can only choose between Ritualist and Monk. -Void 10:17, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Bad change, it completley removes any possibilities of a diverse runner character... Rend touch single handedly would rape one, now this character cant stay up vs a single sin... now you are forced to run 2 classes that are always the same....phate
 * I think the cost and elite status make this reasonable, which is whey even at 5 second recharge, it didn't become an outragious advantage. I think 10 seconds recharge is fine, 12 isn't much different, but at 10, it is just a little better.  The cost is the number one limitation.


 * (originally put in wrong spot, and no not significant since revert)--BahamutKaiser 20:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * fixed a bug that caused this Spell to stop all damage instead of the max damage listed.
 * Now this REALLY needs a buff. Without the prevention of all damage, it is a weak reversal of fortune on 6 recharge. Preventing all damage taken form one attack/spell every 6 seconds isn't broken to begin with and now it just isn't worth bringing to the table. Once this falls into more mediocrity then the entire smiting line just isn't worth it because this is about the most general purpose skill in the smiting line with a half decent recharge.--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 16:15, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill is meta in TA
 * Was. Lord Belar 23:55, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the cost and elite status make this reasonable, which is whey even at 5 second recharge, it didn't become an outragious advantage. I think 10 seconds recharge is fine, 12 isn't much different, but at 10, it is just a little better.  The cost is the number one limitation.--BahamutKaiser 20:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Necromancer

 * decreased Energy returned to 12.
 * now works on target foe instead of having a point-blank area of effect; decreased number of Enchantments affected to 1; increased casting time to 2 seconds.


 * From Gaile News: "Chilblains, in particular, received a powerful increase to better fit its hefty 25 Energy price tag". I don't see how decreasing the removal number, increasing the casting time, and nullifying the PBAoE effect can be considerated as improvement, specially when it had one particular use that is now rendered useless as it was changed from point blank to targetted. --Fighterdoken 22:17, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The targeted still hits "foes in area of target foe". I'd call it an improvement. This is the only AoE enchant removal aside from.. what? Hex Eater Vortex? Low recharge + AoE + Damage justifies the cost, I think. It's also the only "Area" damage aside from Deep Freeze.--Skye Marin 00:01, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The skill used to be able to remove spell breaker and enchantments like that because you never had to target a foe to use it. I have to agree with Fighterdoken. This is no buff considering where it's real strength lied. I'm wondering if it was done because it became a no-brainer in my FC/SoI builds. :D--Redfeather 01:59, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The poison and the fact it only removes 1 enchant, despite the 25 energy cost - makes this skill never able to see combat. Kenshin 03:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * If they'd change it removing 2 enchantments, this skill could see some use taking off possible cover enchantments and ones under those. 2sec cast (possible to interrupt) and large energycost should be enough drawback for such effect. 91.154.3.101 08:30, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Remove the poison then maybe we can see this used with AI. --Shadetz X 11:01, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Chilblains doesn't fit its hefty 25 Energy price tag. You become Poisoned for 10 seconds and foes lose 1 enchantment. The dmg is not worth mentioning. -> 15 energy. 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Well of the Profane, Order of Apostasy, Signet of Disenchantment, Assault Enchantments, Dark Apostasy , Expunge Enchantments , Lift enchantment, Disenchantment , Shattering Assault, Avatar of Grenth (not after nerfs though), Intimidating Aura, Rending Touch, Winds of Disenechantment were more or less the alternatives for removing enchantments from a Obsidian Flesh/Shadow Form/SpellBreaker-ed/Spell Shield-ed target. Chillblains was effective in that it had 6 recharge.Once you take off these handful of these rarely used enchantments out of the picture, things like Rip Enchantment or Mirror of Disenchantment seem more useful for single removals. Target + in the Area is larger than Air of Disenchantment's target + adjacent range, which makes me wonder why Air of Disenchantment is even an elite. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 17:14, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Order of Apostasy, Signet of Disenchantment , Assault Enchantments , Dark Apostasy , Expunge Enchantments , Lift enchantment , Disenchantment , Shattering Assault , Avatar of Grenth , Intimidating Aura , Rending Touch : Please correct me if i am wrong, but all of these skills are targeted, and thus useless agains a Shadow Form Assassin, specially if he uses Deadly Paradox and Echo/Arcane Echo. Well of the Profane, Chillblains: I am sure the guy with the same SF/DP/E build would be more than happy to stand next to a corpse or to a team mate if i ask him nicely. (Unless, of course, we put 4 sins with the griefer build in TA just to force everyone to leave or lose by default). At least WotP can be worked with if you sacrifice yourself, but Chillblains?. From your list, Winds of Disenchantment appears to be the only skill that would work against that build (or a team with that build). Chillblains used to be able to work too, but now will not most of the time. (problem is not really Chillblains, but that sin combo and the fact that people in charge of balance doesn't think it's a problem). ps: Hey, i like that idea of targetted ally instead. added: Ok, i will correct myself. Signet of Disenchantment can remove SF BUT it's a Nightfall skill, while Chillblains was a Core skill that anyone could use. Could anyone point another core skill that can remove SF? --Fighterdoken 18:32, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * What about making it effect all foes in the area of target ally? Then it can be used as a PBAoE (when targeting oneself) or as a ranged spell (when targeting another ally), either way bypassing the effects of Spell Breaker/Obsidian Flesh/ect. Don't know about the rest of the skill, I don't play Necro. (Perhaps change the scaling of the number of removed Enchantments to instead of  if it's underpowered or leave it as it is if it's overpowered or change it and nerf something else instead (damage for example)) --Kemar 18:26, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * then it would be like Ancestor's Rage...and I don't know if that it a good thing--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 20:11, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * One step further, make it "target creature".--74.12.187.165 21:04, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * In its current form, this should be changed into a skill instead of spell. We need to keep this skill as a way to deal with non-targetable enchantments. Hoping that the target you are shooting for will enter an area, then stand there long enough for the 2 second cast time is beyond belief. And even if you do catch them, you have to pray that they don't have a cover enchantment since this spell now only removes one enchantment instead of two. Please change this to a skill or revert back to its old form. - jayce 64.203.235.157 21:30, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This would be leet-sauce if it was a just skill instead of spell. Although for the first time since I got chillblains I've actually brought this on my necro. - [[Image:User HeWhoIsPale sig.PNG]] HeWhoIsPale 20:33, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * decreased recharge time to 15 seconds.
 * fixed a bug that prevented the Health Bar from turning purple.
 * decreased recharge time to 20 seconds.
 * decreased recharge time to 20 seconds; decreased casting time to 1 second.
 * Now it might be useful.It actually outclasses Expose Defenses since it is all allies. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 16:56, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * decreased Health lost to 15..5.
 * I like this buff. This skill use to be suicidal. --Shadetz X 11:01, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * decreased recharge time to 15 seconds.

At least they fixed the color for Putrid Bile. Still no Jagged Bones buff. *Sigh.* --BarGamer 06:45, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Just leave necros for pve from now on, no necro bar takes skill to used so they shouldn't be effective in gvg.

Ranger
Is this a joke, or what? I cannot believe this is it. By the way, Punishing Shot is still worthless, Strike as One is still worthless, Expert's Dexterity is still worthless, Disrupting Shot is still worthless, Scavenger's Focus is still worthless, Power Shot is still worthless, Splinter Shot is still worthless, Arcing Shot is still worthless, Archer's Signet is still worthless, Companionship is still worthless... I could go on and on and on. Arshay Duskbrow 03:07, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * decreased Spirit levels to 1..10.
 * Izzy is worthless at skill balance imo. Readem  03:59, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps. However, I believe it is something different. I think they pretty much believe GW at the end of it's life-cycle. They don't want to buff any class too much and be forced to rebalance. I think most of the worthless skills are going to unfortunately stay worthless forever. Lame. I could balance better, especially if I was getting paid to do it.--Zarfol 04:11, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is a joke, considering how powerful NR was. It was pretty much unkillable unless you had a mel derv in form or the enemy oath shot is bad. --Edru viransu 18:22, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Too bad baby step nerfs/buffs are killing the game eh?--Atlas Oranos 10:29, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I too was disappointed when I looked at the updates here and found only one nerf to something entirely irrelevant, when there are so many lackluster skills in the Ranger's skill pool, as Arshay said. - Anon

Ritualist

 * No longer heals party members with full Health (undocumented).
 * It's an improvement, but this skill is still fairly weak. What about making it lose a flat 5 Health whenever it heals an ally instead of Health loss scaling with healing? -- Gordon Ecker 03:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Signed... Light earshot range heal isn't overpowering. Plus this is one of those spirits that works better with Spawning Power. --Shadetz X 05:32, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This is actually a really good improvement, but it is still an earshot effect and should probably have a lower recharge, agony and rejuvination should be 20 or 25 seconds max for recharge.


 * What I really want to know is when Displacement and Shelter are going to get overhauls, because the function, cost and recharge are all worthless. I'd like to use Ritualist for what they were primarily designed to do, alternate for monk.  You can't do that with 1/3 duration to reuse ratios, or drop dead instantly and wait 45 seconds to pay entirely too much again for damage reduction which may only amount to 50-100.--BahamutKaiser 05:46, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It's a step in the right direction. Before it was a very weak heal party on a huge recast with 3 sec castingtime and earshot range. But i still see problems with light partywide degen like suffering, making it heal 4hp but loosing 10 for each party member and i still think the health loss is way to steep. On a 8 player party at a very unrealistic 15 spawningpower it heals for 50. At least now it does not have an expected life span of <5 seconds anymore but i think it is still to low. 3 second casts on a healer don't work for burst healing. This spirit should be an alternative to recuperation, not heal party. You should be able to keep it up if you don't rely to much on its healing. 134.130.183.235 08:09, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Paragon

 * now causes Cracked Armor for 20 seconds when applied.
 * Does it give you Cracked Armor if its re-aplied? ~ Kurd [[Image:User Kurd sig.png]] 21:31, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, it gives CA when re-applied. My question is why go with CA instead of just reducing armor, and whether they considered the PvE consequences of using a condition.  With a constantly re-applying condition, hero monks can and will burn their energy to remove it in lieu of actually healing and protecting the rest of the party.  --Valshia 22:18, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Think of the fun you could have with this and condition transfer skills. :D Lord Belar 00:39, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Like Lightblade 05:52, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Poorly implemented fix. Kind of like everything else they do nowadays :/ -24 AL while attacking would have been much better, this is just a dismiss away from being what it was before. Stupidly broken. - Auron 05:59, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreeing on that -AL while attacking would've been alot better...ie. if compared to frenzy, you can keep it 24/7 too, but when you're taking dmg you might need to cancel it (with this stopping attacking). With CA it's more random "nerf" and easily removeable if team has E/Mo with draw. 91.154.3.101 08:20, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I too think making the penalty a condition was a mistake. With the reappliance of the cracked armor there could be some major dmg done. Fragility, Fevered Dreams, Plague Sending, Contagion, etc. 84.87.168.39 12:14, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * How is -al while attacking better? It means if you kd them they take less damage and if they get spiked they just cancel action. The nerf should probably have been -24 al whenever this skill is up but applying cracked armor is better than -al while attacking.
 * I think I must be missing how people think monks or eles will have the free energy to draw/dismiss the para every 8 seconds or so(at least) while still doing their job. --Edru viransu 18:24, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The -al would force paras to pay a bit of attention to the game. Most now just keep attacking through spikes and while in AoE.Ax
 * Yea, open obs; paragons just sit in AoE, sit while being trained by thumpers, sit through spikes... all because they have too much armor for their own good. No point moving out of AoE when it barely takes your red bar down at all :/ - Auron 00:51, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Interesting change, but it ends up fueling RC during spikes on the paragons too...Holymasamune 09:05, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * A bit off topic, but re: the cracked armor: It would be nice if the AI did not remove self-inflicted conditions unless prompted. 6 November 2007

This skill has taken a nerf, it's a little odd, but the goals are to make an offense trade off for defense, well see how it goes. ~Izzy @-&#39; 22:03, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * WTF!! It's not a knock to defense its make it apply a condition to yourself and still costs 25e!!! That's just so dumb. For christs sake I thought all the other nerfs to Paragons were bad enough but this one is by far the most idiotic of the lot. How exactly can you justify applying a condition to your armour by aggresively fast attacking??? How? I would have been ok with a negative modifier to armour whilst attaking with this as you are attaking quickly and not defending so much and that you could have stoppped attaking when under pressure to lose the negative modifier. But this... this is just ill thought out idiotic nerf just for the sake of it, way over the top. If this one stays I'm seriously thinking of getting rid of this game altogether as the kind of behaviour and great (:P) support from ANet just takes away the fun of it. Ajax Baby Eater 12:14, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I think this was a very poor way to promote a new condition added to the game. Granted, this is a ranged units attack speed boost, and it doesn't reduce armor as much as frenzy or something, this isn't not a controllable effect.  You can choose to use this ability, but you cannot deactivate it, anyone around you using chants and shouts will reapply this effect and condition on you over and over again, compounding with fragility, making condition removal efforts ineffective, and involuntarily applying the echo to you repeatedly even if your not utilizing attacks.


 * Beyond that, the condition is a whopping 20 seconds, which may not apply much to a paragon who is getting reapplied every 5 or 10 seconds, but with inteligent use of plauge sending and other plauges, you can now apply a 20 second cracked armor not only to one opponent, but several in an adjacent radius. In remote cases, this might make up for the unreasonable application of this condition.


 * Just because Anet developed some new condition doesn't mean it is appropriate for this skill, the cost needs to be reduced along with any reduction in value, because it was not undercharged for the effect, the tradeoff needs to activate upon action, just like the benifit, and even than, 20 armor may be too much.--BahamutKaiser 18:08, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * One good sign of this nerf though, is that it hurts having multiple Paragons, which means it is a step in the right direction with the class. Now, if other skills can just get the power of this, but somehow HURT for having more than one Paragon, then possibly a lot of skills could get buffed into usefulness. --Deathwing 18:16, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Do not buff or nerf this skill, especially not with this annoying and unnecessary new condition called "cracked armor" that can hardly be applied by anything else. Now you apply it to yourself everytime a shout ends, basically a lot. The best solution for Aggressive Refrain: a total rework. 25 energy skills always indicate something is too good with this skill so that it has to be limited. How about that: Make it a chant, re-name it "Aggressive Song" and give it 3 seconds more duration for each shout active on you. 25% IAS, duration 8 seconds, recharge 30 seconds. 15 Energy. It is not as effective as an infinite IAS, yet I am sure people will accept it more than this condition-re-applying thing we have right now. --Longasc 22:09, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for reminding me a reason why I quit this game and will never touch a product with Anet's name on it again, Izzy. -Rakeman 20:07, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * But still interested enough to post that on a fansite. ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:11, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Owned :P. Dark Morphon 11:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

So far my only issue with this change is that the AI removes the condition too much, I'll try and get this updated but our AI guy has been slammed lately. ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:11, 18 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I have not yet played paragon since the update (too busy with my warrior), yet I agree with Deathwing above: Anything that hurts teams with multiple paragons more than single paragons is a step in the right direction. And the idea of countering a great IAS with armor reduction is sound. --Xeeron 09:20, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * AI removing conditions (which you want to keep on yourself) was always bad if you wanted to try something like Signet of Midnight + Sand Shards or a build with Melandru's Resilience and so on. :\ 19 October 2007 --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:80.133.76.113.
 * Ok this is the last straw my paragon is now OFFICIALLY a mule, thanks Anet..>:P --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:122.167.6.77.


 * I'm getting really sick and tired of being affected by an aspect of this game (PvP) that I have nothing to do with. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:65.248.178.226.
 * Please sign your comments people. Honestly, AR was so overpowered, this was needed. Paragons aren't just overpowered in PvP, take the two para heroes with your paragon in PvE; it's still instawin. I've been playing with paras since the nerf, and AR is still worth bringing. It's just no longer as instant pwnsauce as it was. - [[Image:User HeWhoIsPale sig.PNG]] HeWhoIsPale 13:25, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "take tow para heroes with your para". Yeah, and there lies the entire problem. Paras are awesome as a team, but NOT as a team member. A single para in a team has been slowly nerfed to buggery since the first NF update. 81.2.90.239 23:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Imo, remove cracked armor and just make it -20 armor. No more problem with ai spamming themselves out of energy removing conditions but still retains the spirit of the nerf. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 02:16, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * increased recharge time to 4 seconds.
 * Recharge? i guess it was needed ~ Kurd [[Image:User Kurd sig.png]] 21:31, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Not only that, it probably removes any chance of paragon playing in HA/GvG teams as they're easily a target of an spike with less energy. This is almost as bad as adding exhaustion to Ritualists so don't make us wait til next Fri. Just reverse this please or make the base AL 60 for para and totally make it useless. On side note when's Focused Anger getting fixed? /fail (sorry but it's just not a good solution at all)

Those bitches don't know how to skillbalance. What about PvE? Try simply reducing adrenaline gained while under the effects of Aggressive Refrain; that way, Focused Anger PvE paras won't be affected, but it would no longer work as an adrenal increase. Or at least buff the Soldier's Fury - FGJ combo. 99.235.230.36 22:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't like when adrenal skills are given recharges...Hyper Cutter 04:48, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I can see why this was chosen, Paragons are energy generating machines with these skills, now they are less great in generating that energy. I understand why, but I would have really liked seeing some other skills (like Motivation) buffed as well. Oh well, no biggie. Nicky Silverstar 05:50, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Adding a constant condition on paragons and making them a target for virulence, iron palm, etc. is just plain wrong.
 * Yes because Virulence and Iron Palm are so good at countering paragons. I wish people who have no idea what they are talking about would stop posting. Shendaar 21:33, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I can see the recast to be needed to stop the insane e-management by this skill. But this change made the skill useless as it is. I would have gone a similar way to Watch Yourself and change the skill to a time limited buff instead of a next attack modifier. Make it last for all attacks the next few seconds (with maybe reducing the % to balance it) and the recast won't be that bad anymore. 134.130.183.235 08:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * How is this skill useless? I think it is still ok, it increases the chance your physical buddies have to do +40% damage on their next attack. For just 4 adrenaline? Not bad, and you get some energy too, so that actually makes is 'exactly as it was meant to be'. Nicky Silverstar 06:28, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Warrior

 * increased activation time to 1 second.
 * Very bad change. Dchop > it in every way possible now. - Auron 06:04, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a good change warriors were spiking for way too much damage. Dchop takes skill to use it should be better than this...
 * They're exactly the same, except that dchop gets a 20 second skill shutdown. The 17 extra damage on agonizing is near useless because you can't spike with it. - Auron 07:11, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It's the +17 1/2 cast that made it good for compressing more damage into a spike. Dchop is almost purely an interrupt and takes the same amount of time as a normal swing. Btw I'm not saying agonizing was a completely broken skill, just that nerfing it is a step in the right direction imo.
 * This change is terrible. One of the most conditional interrupts in the game with a 1 sec cast time. And yes it was being used to spike damage...but it wasn't broken! If it isnt broke don't change it. Unlike the hundreds of skills that ARE! -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 13:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Agonizing was one of the reasons offense was so strong as to necessitate blockway. --Edru viransu 18:44, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This is probably one of the few good skill changes in this otherwise extremely poor update. —ǥrɩɳsɧ  ƿoɲ  01:09, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The fact that people still run this skill makes me lol. Still, after you had nerfed Crit Chop awhile back to 15r, making an ADRENAL crit chop never did make sense to me.  Overdue change in my opinion. Pluto 06:46, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * increased movement speed to 33%.
 * with Fall Back! on the table I doubt this will be used often, as Warriors have betetr elites to use...--Life Infusion [[User
 * Devona and company (Pre-EOTN of course) are more useful now. User:Ayumbhara

talk:Life_Infusion|&laquo;T&raquo;]] 17:03, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * increased activation time to 1 second.
 * Same as Agonizing; unnecessary. Now warriors will just bring more broken shit like Rending Touch instead of the third spike skill. - Auron 06:04, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Good change as well although this skill wasn't nearly as bad as agonizing chop.
 * Neither skill was bad... :/ - Auron 07:11, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill was already out of the meta since the last nerf. Beside, why did you hit this skill and not Eremite/Mystic Strike??? Damage compression is just as crazy if not more on the walking tree. Shendaar 21:37, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * reworded skill description to explain that it is an interrupt.
 * OMG taht so unbalanced now! nerf pl0x! :P -- Counciler 01:39, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * increased recharge time to 4 seconds; increased duration to 10 seconds.
 * Good hit to P/W's spamming it.--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 17:22, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, nice change in that regard. But i would have increased the duration slightly to really be able to call it an increase. With high tactics this actualy is a duration reduction. Further considering the recharge now it is a very bad nerf on high tactics builds. Before you had 11 sec time to regain the adrenaline to refresh it in time, now you have 6 sec time. I would have either kept the level dependant progression and added the recast to it or would have set duration to 14 sec. 134.130.183.235 08:36, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * With Izzy going for the 'less passive defense' I can't see such a change happening soon. The idea is to make it hard to keep defense boosts up all the time, and this skill is just that: it will require some effort to keep it up constantly. Just be thankful it is just hard, and not impossible. :-) 145.94.74.23 07:19, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

PvE skills
Nice buff. -- Gordon Ecker 03:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Now deals armor-ignoring damage (undocumented)

Other
NR nerf was good, however one of the main problems with spiritway is the trappers, especially on cap point maps, where they can split like crazy and lay dozens of trap bombs, which means opposing team is pretty much unable to do 3-way split. i dont think this can be fixed via skill balance...

lowering spirits HP was ok, but i think it would be better to lower their armor instead... that way spirits like shelter, union and whatever are still useful, but if people attack them they die fast. i don't see how something thats not even solid can have armor as such, but w/e

raising energy for ward of melee was random... most builds using it have glyph on bar so :s ... 2 sec cast time would make it more balanced... in fact all wards should have longer cast time because they're insanely good compared to similar enchantments/chants/spirits

nerf deadly paradox plx... that skill should be pve only but if thats not gonna happen at least give it longer recharge way longer than duration, so it cannot be maintained

Phoenixx --121.45.198.101 10:34, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your expert opinion, and for creating another 'other' section. Care to explain how a 2 sec cast time on ward would make it balanced? The way I see it is it would pretty much wreck the skill in any non blockway build and almost only be viable on mesmers.
 * Lol, wards overpowered? Nicky Silverstar 20:15, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * compare Ward Against Melee to aegis, Defensive Anthem or displacement... The only thing ward doesn't do is it doesn't block projectiles. The only 2 that cant be stripped/killed before its duration runs out is the ward and the anthem. The only 1 out of 4 that can be maintained by 1 player is the ward, the only 1 out of 4 to have 1 second cast time is the ward.
 * raising casting time would make it easier to interrupt (duh), so teams using it would need to do a little more work instead of having the wards doing all the work for them
 * The only one that makes the team unable to move is the ward. Seriously man, it doesn't block everything, it doesn't make the caster almost invulnerable to interrupt rangers, it doesn't have as big a range as the other skills mentioned and it is placed in an attribute line that is hardly competetive WTIH powerful wards, let alone if they were nerfed the way you want. Sure, the ward cannot be stripped, but it has more than enough downsides to compensate for it's upsides. Downsides which some people always seem to 'forget' Nicky Silverstar 09:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * What's the downside to a ward with 10recharge, 14 or more duration that casts in less than 3/4s of a second for 0 energy? --Edru viransu 23:01, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Which ward would that be? Oh, you mean when used by a MESMER! Lol. that doesn't make the ward overpowered, just the Mesmer build that uses them. On an Elementalist using nothing but Earth, the mechanic works perfectly. In fact, without wards, Earth would almost defenitely be in the underpowered section. Not counting tank builds of course. Nicky Silverstar 11:46, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * And without heals, Healing Prayers would definitely be in the underpowered section. Try not to comment on stuff when you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.
 * If the ward can be abused by mesmers, the fix would have to be to the ward; unless you're suggesting nerfing fast casting and/or the Inspiration line? 70.95.73.60
 * Dude, I know what I am talking about. It is wards that make Earth useful, a geomancer without wards is simply a damage dealer. And everyone knows (well, everyone except you it seems) that Fire elementalists better damage dealers than Earth elementalists, so it makes no sense to use Earth without wards, because it would simply be inferior to Fire.

And yes, that is exactly what I mean. The Ward-mechanic (not the skills, the game mechanic) is not unbalanced. It is unremovable, yes, but it also has a short range, long recharge and once you plop it down, it has to stay there until 20 seconds later, you can cast it again. Meaning that it can be countered by the enemy by simply fighting somewhere else (any good PvP'er zhould be able to do that). It would be overpowered if it could be recast quickly, every few seconds, because that would negate its primary weakness: mobility. An elementalist can't do that, a mesmer apperantly can. So what makes the ward overpowered? The combination with the mesmer, not the ward itself.

With your reasoning, it should have 3 seconds casting time, otherwise it will hardly affect the fast casting mesmer. Don't mind that you completely nerf an attribute in the proces. And the mesmers? They will simply switch to Aegis. Nice job, oh 'people who DO know what they're talking about' /sarcasm Nicky Silverstar 09:54, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Game Updates
These Game updates make me wonder if anet plays the game at all it seems like you just nerff stuff for ha and don’t care how the rest of the game plays its like my rit becomes more and more useless as the game updates hit. and its like fire eles are getting to eat cake each time, I know they are not as good as they were in the beginning (when the game started) but common what I think would be jawsome is if you made use of smiting again and made mesmers and sins a viable class in pve more so sins seeing that its like "zomg were going to introduce a class that is hit and run and doesn’t have a lot of armor and then where going to make an foe that explodes every time it dies” something else I know its kind of crazy but I would like to see it any way is being able to create any class and start at any campaign I know your not the guy to complain about this but might as well say something when I got the chance. Other then that the game needs more compatibility with there secondary professions like I am glad to see it some what but for the most part in game I see like 1 skill on a bar from peoples secondary. Also just nerffing stuff to make people happy dose not always work because there’s a larger sum of people who don’t go on guru and pay moneys to complain. And there is just a larger amount of people who play the game who don’t go on any sort of chat form other then there guild forums or something awful, or 4chan well that is my rant for now plz fix game balance!
 * Dude pve balance doesn't even matter, the AI aren't going to adapt and run something because it got buffed.
 * Snap into a slim jim, oooooh yeah. --Deathwing 07:17, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

acualy it dose matter seeing as its like 70% of the game and for that matter its the same skills so L2P n00b also did i say anything about "AI ADAPTING" no i didnt nor do i care if the ai changes. you didnt "snap me into a slim jim zomg" silly nubs
 * PvE balance does matter. If a profession is underpowered in PvE, it's hard to find a group and you're likely to get kicked for a member of a more competitive profession. -- Gordon Ecker 05:10, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * People who don't take mesmers are just retarded and like the cookie cutter builds. PvE is actually nicely balanced, it's the people's mindsets on what to take that isn't Holymasamune 09:08, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The second part of your sentence is SOOO true. Nicky Silverstar 09:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Mesmers are great in PvE. They can cast rank 11 PvE spells with Signet of Illusions, and once they've maxed out the relevant titles, they can swap it for Mantra of Recovery or Echo. Paragons, Ritualists and Assassins are the ones who need help. -- Gordon Ecker 09:51, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Sins need help in PvE? Crit agility+crit def+overused, boring crit scythe build=PvE assassin. Rits, on the other hand.... Lord Belar 00:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * sins and rits own, who the hell uses a scythe? &mdash; Skuld 00:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * If you claim Paragons suck in PvE, you /fail. --Deathwing 00:34, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Multiple paragons are powerful but the efficiency of one single paragon is bad compared to a single mm or ss necro or ele or anything else + single target attacks & nerfed motivation line ftl. People don't run 6 paragons in pve, they are lucky if they find enough people to do a mission (pve). 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * There's nothing to fear. Save yourselves from this ignorance. 220.101.173.37 10:56, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, rits win PvE with splinter weapon spam, ancestor's rage spam, spirit spam, and support healing. 220.101.173.37 10:57, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * There's nothing to fear is overhyped. All you need is weekness on a necro. But who cares, the upcoming nerf to physical dmg classes will make single paragons even worse in pve. 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, weakness on a necro reduces all damage (physical and magic) on every party member in the team, then heals them when the effect ends. C'mon, be real. TNTF is one of the reasons why paragons are simply the best PvE class in the game. Remember how Incoming was nerfed because it was chainable godmode? TNTF is like incoming, except non-elite, lasts longer, and heals when it ends. If you aren't running TNTF, you are doing it wrong. - Auron 11:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I know weakness doesn't reduce dmg from all sources but its all you need. Don't worry the nerf to paragons energy management is not a big deal, his skills will work fine on my pve necro 16 October 2007 (UTC)

This latest update just proves my point like do they seriously play this game or do they only care about ha bs? ANET THIS GAME ISNT ONLY ABOUT HA.
 * That statement seems as though it would indicate that they did something to fix the problems with HA... --Edru viransu 23:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

good point.

Headshot
This update tried more or less to bring more split in the meta by lowering the effectiveness of defensive skills every team was bringing like SOD & ward against melee. What we have now is sadly just one kind of split, 2 instagib sins and a dedicated split healer. Please go on and stop that black lotus strike combo, with recharge, energy or both. Don't be affraid to make disapear from this game a single build that is just too easy to play and effective that it makes disapear every other sin build possible (aura of displacement and many other are still viable). It's just not fun to face this in gvg: you have to send more people to counter them, or just camp your base with half of your npcs going down at best, or keep doing a full team back each time you need to flag. I'd like to see more balanced splits where 2 teams of 2/3 players can push, back and fight equally instead of dying in 1s because of a broken skillbar. I'm pretty sure HvH players will find something else to play. Ichiko 22:35, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

RA Time Cap
I'm really not enjoying it. I play a monk, and I've run into more draws than I have winning streaks. Would it be possible to just throw VoD in instead, along with maybe a supplementary two-minute cap? It's really annoying to lose a good team because you ran into another good team, and the cap seems to punish healers more than anything currently. --207.34.158.232 04:01, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

PvP is sooooo boring and more so with every update
I've been playing competitive games over LAN and online since the early nineties. My background is more FPS than RPG. But I liked Guild Wars for a change, these last 11 months I’ve been playing it. Finished the 3 campaigns and the add-on with 3 of my characters and played quite a lot with the rest of them. I also enjoyed playing PvP in the beginning but that didn’t last long. The premises and the general idea were good. There were tournaments with restrictions, introduction of new skills, emphasis on this and that, etc. It was diversified and fun. And there was room for creative thinking. Well I can say that I am more and more disappointed with every update. I don’t like the way the game evolves. And most of the people don’t. PvP players are becoming an insignificant minority of under aged kids who do nothing else than copying Xerox team builds and playing the same way over and over. And what does Anet do about it? They keep on cretinously micro-tuning and balancing just to make sure nothing deviates from the tank-nuke-heal model. Introduction of new professions? Discovery of new ideas? Let’s nerf all of this under ground. Well. I’m bored. The 90% of the players are bored. Where do we sign a petition for Izzy and his entire team to be fired? We are paying for his salary and we don’t like the job he does. Perhaps the cracked armor applied to him will teach him to take into consideration his clients’ concerns and not only his personal gaming preferences. If you want to give PvP some life and interest, you have to completely shuffle the deck of cards. Give handicaps and limitations to teams, don’t cripple single professions to the point they are not fun anymore. No more than 2 team members of the same profession per team in a tournament. No more than 1 in another (yes a single Monk per team, 8 different professions in every team=guaranteed fun). Diversify, show some creativity, instead of modifying some skills by a tenth of a second. I’m pretty pessimistic about things really changing in a good way in Guild Wars, and I’m pretty sure GW2 will not be for me. Half of my friends have already deserted the game. So I will have to find something else. UT3 is only a month away isn’t it? Dionyssios 11:36, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * What is the use of telling that you quit, except to try to ruin the mood for the rest of us? If you're gonna quit, please quit, but don't try to convince others to leave with you. That's just mean, and won't help anyone. Nicky Silverstar 11:02, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Everyone knows that tank-nuke-heal is the cornerstone of competitive PvP in Guild Wars. What would happen if we deviated from it? -67.161.44.231 22:50, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * What the hell are you talking about?--67.164.57.110 02:47, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Mend Condition
The desrciption doesnt include cracked armor?? Does it still deal with that? 24.141.45.72 01:22, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * no, the description doesnt mention it. I dont see the reason why it counts up every other condition but this skill was created long before cracked armor. Izzy should do something about it. --Cursed Angel 01:28, 9 November 2007 (UTC)