Talk:Talmark Wilderness (War in Kryta)

Regarding "fully explored" map
Why do we need it? No other area has anything like this, and it's just there, what does it show ? places you can get to ? O.o MadSkillz1o1 19:13, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Interestingly enough the purpose it now serves is the location of the shining blade camp there ;P 24.197.130.109 19:55, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It could be used to help those that don't use 3rd party programs such as texmod to complete their cartographer title. Just because the other explorable pages doesn't have it doesn't mean it's a bad idea or unneeded. -- Magic  [[Image:User Magic Icon.jpg|19px]]  Talk  21:21, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Why is it split?
Why is the page split? Why does it need to be? Why is the disambig identifier horrible? I don't see why it needs to be split, if it's because of the NPCs it should still be on the proper TW Page. If the NPCs disappear after all this "war in Kryta" a simple note to the Shining Blade camp is suffice. Do we create separate explorable area pages for NPCs that only appear during special events such as the Dragon Festival or Wintersday? Tagging the page for a merge... ~Celestia 06:40, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * /agreed. This shouldn't be split. --[[Image:User Large sig.png|talk]] Large 06:48, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree, no need to be split. Just seems redundant and unnecessary. -- Konig / talk 07:02, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it was because technically speaking, the Talmark Wilderness with all the Shining Blade is a new explorable instance. --Santax (talk · contribs) 08:21, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * May I ask how it's a separate instance? Is it because the NPCs only appear once certain conditions are met, or is there some other factor that makes it a different instance? ~Celestia 11:48, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I Agree it should be Merged again, but also @ Celestia, the Shining Blade tents are there too,as well as the NPC's.-- Nei l2250  ,    Render Lord User Neil2250 sig icon5.jpg 11:58, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * @Celestia: FWIW, I believe that it has a different explorable id (837 vice 17). We should probably wait and see what happens &mdash; if the camp is the only difference, then it's probably sensible to maintain only a single page, with suitable notes.  --DryHumour 15:08, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If this gets its own article, then all the locations of the Peacekeepers should get a new instance, because it would be same thing as this. Looking at how much space and redundancy that would become, it would just be easier to put all these NPCs in a seperate ===War in Kryta change=== section or something. -- Konig / talk 23:41, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Konig: I'm not sure if that's just spawns or whether those areas with the Peacekeepers get their own explorable ids. If it's just spawns we can just use a subheading like "x% change of spawning after completion of Prophecies:" or whatever instead of an entirely separate page. --Santax (talk · contribs) 23:13, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * At least for Nebo Terrace, it's just spawns, and not a different zone like on this case.
 * Given that accessing this map in particular requires certain conditions (and that the vanquishing results of this map are to be answered yet i think) i think it should be kept as a separate entity.--Fighterdoken 23:34, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This is a completely new map. The ground does not properly align with the compass/map in some places and vanquishing this version of Talmark results in strange behavior on the world map. The golden border around the explorable name you normally get after vanquishing sporadically disappears and turns back to red. Also, the red border of the "unvanquished" normal version of Talmark is still visible underneath the golden one. See http://img690.imageshack.us/i/gw069.png/ Ctarl 14:44, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

The precedent for this scenario is Battledepths. Before you finish the Norn quest line the dwarves don't appear there, but afterwards they set up camp. Similar things happen even in factions. On Shing Jea Island prior to finishing Zen Daijun afflicted will spawn all over Haiju Lagoon, however after completing the mission they are replaced with Crimson Skull. This map is not special in that it locks off access or dissapears after certain quests are completed (as of posting)... it is simply a permanent (as of posting) change to the spawns in the location following the fulfillment of a certain criteria (completion of either prophecy or EotN). The vanquishing issue is fairly irrelevant as once you have completed Prophecy or EotN this is the only Talmark Wilderness you can access. Just add the info the Talmark Wilderness page, specific details can be kept on the Shining Blade Camp page. If the camp is removed in a later update after a trigger takes place (I doubt it because of all the effort placed in spawning the camp) we can simply put this as a note like the Luxon and Kurzick settlements in Kryta. With the existence of the Shining Blade Camp article, there really isn't enough content to justify this page being split. 58.106.43.167 00:22, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Someone needs to test the logical follow-up to Ctarl's image. We need someone to double vanquish this zone.  Once before they trigger the new map (it's obviously a new map, not just tweaked spawns) and once after the new map is in place.  If this counts for 2 vanquished zones (or if one doesn't count for the total at all) we've got a cool new bug on the vanquisher title.  Actually, I'll do that tonight after work.  My vanquisher title was completed years ago so any attempt I make now should result in having 55/54 zones cleared if it is indeed bugged. 68.32.65.101 17:59, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * So I entered the zone and it was showing as red. A full vanquish turned the zone gold but my title stays at 54/54.  I'm assuming the game considers the zones the same for the purpose of counting total vanquishes but different as far as map rendering goes.  If anyone doesn't already have the vanquisher title on some alternate character and can somehow make it show 2/54 by vanquishing the same zone, beating prophecies, vanquish the zone again, that would be cool to see. 68.32.65.101 00:43, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This is really messy. I have proposed to keep the War in Kryta content completely separate from the normal content. An example would be User:Wynthyst/Sandbox/Nebo_Terrace/War_in_Kryta. The War in Kryta content pages are going to be expanding as this War progresses and new encounters and events occur. Also, the explorables are separate for people who have met the requirements for participating in the new content, and those that haven't, so combining the information the way it is here, or with the proposed merge would just make things very confusing for people who haven't met the participation requirements and are looking for just the normal information. The War in Kryta content needs to be documented separately, and can be linked to both the main explorable pages and the War in Kryta page. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  13:21, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * @58.106.43.167: The point is that on this map it's not just the spawns that are different (like the other War in Kryta changes in Watchtower Coast or Cursed Lands). The map itself was completely redone. I'm not sure about the geometry of the ground itself but the map now has more detailed textures, more rocks, "new" water, grass and trees (in general less plain ground than it used to have). And as I wrote before, the new textures don't quite align with the world map (i.e. green/grass on the ground but grey/rocky on the world map). I'm at a loss as to why they did this, though. It seems too much "useless" time and effort for the live team that is short-staffed anyway. They could have just put the Blade camp in a copy of the normal version of Talmark. Maybe they didn't have the "source" of the old Talmark anymore and couldn't edit the camp in or something like that. Ctarl 07:32, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * We have quests that cause different NPCs to spawn in areas where they usually don't appear. Do we create new explorable area pages for them? No.
 * The War in Kryta is kinda same thing.
 * You need a fill requirements (a quest on the first one and a completed campaign on the second one) for certain things to appear in different areas.
 * Take Thackeray in Ice Cliff Chasms as a third example. It's a same thing: Requirements to modify an area.
 * This is unnecessary split in my opinion. - J.P.[[Image:User J.P. sigicon.png| ]] Talk  07:48, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * So then you suggest we also merge Trial of Zinn and Vlox's Falls pages then?  Eive_Windgrace 23:57, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Perfect example Eive. The pages are currently set up the way they SHOULD be set up. There ARE 2 instances of each area in Kryta: a pre-War in Kryta instance and a War in Kryta instance. Before completion of Prophecies or EotN, you will NEVER see the Shining Blade Camp or the Secret River Passage, but once you have completed either, you will never see it the way it was before. Likewise, the pre- and post-War in Kryta versions of the Watchtower Coast have completely different sets of foes: pre-WiK has mergoyles and the like, while WiK version has Peacekeepers and White Mantle, not to mention the various encounters you will never experience beforehand, but happen very regularly during. Yes, they share the same name, but that's what a disambig tag is for. These are not temporary changes that occur to an area while a certain quest is active, like the way Mineral Springs changes during the quest Defend Droknar's Forge; these are permanent changes, and all permanently existing content gets its own page. Just look at the new explorable area of Lion's Arch, the Lion's Arch Keep. It is now a permanent area of the game. It can't be accessed by anybody who has not completed Proph or EotN, and neither can Talmark Wilderness (War in Kryta). Also, in-game, the actual name of Lion's Arch Keep is Lion's Arch (explorable area), but it had to be renamed because of the already existing Lion's Arch (explorable area) that exists because of the quest Sunspears in Kryta. So, because they share the same name, you want to put them on the same page, even though they are CLEARLY separate and distinct instances of the game? No, ALL permanent instances of the game get their own unique page, and instances of the same name are linked by a disambig tag.
 * Also, don't forget that the story is completely different in each of these instances. Before completion of Prophecies, the White Mantle are your allies (only in Kryta, of course), but during the War in Kryta, they are your enemies. To list White Mantle as BOTH your allies AND your foes on the same page, at best, simply becomes a confusing inconsistency. A newb reading that would undoubtedly think, "What the hell?!" Giving each separate instance of the game its own separate page serves to keep the storyline intact. It also keeps spoilers, which exploration of the above inconsistency would yeild, from occurring as easily. The fact is, we are dealing with 2 different stories here: The Flameseeker Prophecies (the story of Guild Wars Prophecies) and The War in Kryta (the story of Guild Wars Beyond). They need to be kept separate so the 2 stories aren't intermingled. --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] 20:25, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Wall of text zzz.-- Nei l2250  ,    Render Lord User Neil2250 sig icon6.png 20:29, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Nice and constructive, Neil. To the people who actually care about this discussion: I agree that this page needs to be split - this, Divinity's Coast and the new Lion's Arch are all separate explorable instances created for the War in Kryta. The issue I have is with the other explorable areas, which are just spawns altered based on whether you have completed Proph/EN or not, and I think we should document them in a way that reflects that. However, Wyn has other ideas, and has gone ahead and added new War in Kryta pages for North Kryta Province, Nebo Terrace etc. without waiting for a discussion. --22:04, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Santax, I believe you will find that the people who agree that this needs to be split agree that the other pages need to be split as well. As shown by the discussion on Talk:War in Kryta. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  22:42, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

map
The included map doesn't show the location of the camp. :/ Rose Of Kali 20:41, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That's because the link was reverted to what is on the main page. I don't believe a new map has been created showing the location of the camp. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  20:56, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, my point is that it should have a map or its own, I'm just not good at map-making. :P [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]Rose Of Kali 00:45, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, I added the location of the camp on the map :D -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  20:55, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Livia, Zinn, and Blimm dialogue
I was wondering as to why the dialogue between them is not listed on this page, it takes place in Talmark Wilderness, so I don't see why it wouldn't be.  Eive_Windgrace 00:05, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I just noticed the same thing. --Roe Cantarus 05:06, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It's because someone feels this page is irrelevant and has been making all the corrections/additions to Talmark Wilderness (War in Kryta)/Draft instead of here. I have added the dialogue. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  15:21, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Livia gets stuck
Everytime i enter the area, Livia gets stuck, she wont even react to flagging :(.--Markisbeest 12:11, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Its already mentioned on anougther page.-- Nei l2250  ,    Render Lord User Neil2250 sig icon6.png 12:12, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It's a known bug introduced with the last update.--Fogeltje 12:28, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, sorry for the doublepost then.--Markisbeest 12:34, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Third dialog skipped
The Third entrance into the shining blade camp can be skipped if the viewer has viewed the trial of Zinn beforehand. I viewed the trial yesterday, and today just began viewing the events at the camp from the beginning. Dialogs 1 and 2 played out smoothly, but the third time I entered I instead viewed the 4th dialog, with all NPCs from the third present. A note or bug of this might be needed.--Neithan Diniem 05:36, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * So all the NPCs in the 3rd dialogue were there, but the dialogue never actually took place? Instead it played the 4th dialogue? --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] 17:11, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Scutilla made a nice flowchart: http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/Scutilla/warinkrytaflowchart.png  Sjeng  [[Image:User_Sjeng_Sig_Icon.png|13px|talk ]] 18:15, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Why aren't enemy spawns listed here?
Is it simply because the page is incomplete? 58.106.158.34 19:11, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Treating as a replaced map
I've tried to find a middle ground between this being an actual new map, and part of the WiK. I added the foes to the page, gave a link to the dialogues in the Shining Blade camp, and edited the info box to take maps from the /draft version of this page. Please tell me what you think of it, here. G R E E N E R 06:19, 27 May 2010 (UTC)