ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/PvE/Classes of 2009 Issues

I loved this last update but I have to ask because there seems to be a number of remaining issues (and possibly some new ones with Necromancers if the Well changes go through) that haven't been "tidied up" yet. ...Mostly concerning Mesmers, Paragons, and Assassins. And these aren't just my opinions, I gathered all of this feedback from other players (and some from that *other* wiki)... and I'm being too vague so I'll just lay them out on the table here: ...I'm sure you could probably add more too, but These were just examples (/which could be moved to my talk or some general feedback area if you'd prefer) b/c all I'm really asking here is if the average player's builds will be brought in line with the Gimmick builds and Visa-Versa? Thanks! -- ilr  01:53, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Mesmer-tango-icon-20.png]]Complaints about mesmers not contributing enough
 * Energy Denial has always been fairly useless against Monsters.
 * PvE is often about AoE powers and Mesmers don't have enough nearby/in-area Spells
 * Cryway QQ'ers QQ'ing (I dunno, you'd have to ask THEM)
 * [[Image:Paragon-tango-icon-20.png]]Other than "Imbagons", Paragons in general are still an Awkward fit for most PvE groups
 * Nearly all of the Imbagon's Damage Reduction actually comes from spamming "Save Yourselves".
 * Paragons attempting to solo or play on small Teams (less than 6 players?) are still as dreadful as ever.
 * An overabundance of Run-Speed Buffs doesn't help in General PvE Combat.
 * One of the Paragon's Elite damage-reduction shouts was actually replaced with more Run speed Buffing!
 * Most Chants, Echoes, and Finales in particular are difficult to "time" and use effectively.
 * Most Motivation skills in particular suffer hardest from this due to their durations being too short.
 * [[Image:Assassin-tango-icon-20.png]]Other than Shadow Farmers, Most assassins are also a weak choice for PvE
 * Shadow Steps make "running" in certain areas too easy, while not helping assassins much in general PvE combat
 * Daggers in general are mostly unwanted and unused, often replaced with Scythes & Staves
 * Daggers is Plural, but generally only hit once per attack, making them worse than Scythes for triggering On-Hit events
 * Dual-attacks don't factor in frequently enough in PvE.
 * You forgot Dervishes. Most people I talk about regarding Dervishes say that Warriors and Assassins are almost always chosen over them (i.e., Dervishes are the least favored melee profession). Eventually, they too need a profession overhaul. But then again - every profession could use an overhaul update, technically. -- Azazel the Assassin/ talk 15:27, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Mesmers and Dervishes are the ones I use less now. Mesmers are very limited against the bigger crowds of enemies you find in PvE, having so few AoE skills, and they can't cope with the increased speed of PvE, with their energy management options when you need to interrupt or sacrifice the elite slot to gain energy, or when you get 8 energy every 45 seconds, that's too slow for PvE, when most of your skills cost 10 and 15 energy and your average energy is around 60. You cast 4..6 spells, and you are done for a minute if you can't interrupt an enemy that it's really hard to interrupt even under Arcane Conundrum. And dervishes... well... they are fine in the middle of a bunch of undead, but everywhere else... they are not so great. Their usefulness depend on location and being able to hit as many enemies as possible with a single skill, and that can't always be done with enemies that move so fast that they can get away from your PBAoE skills even under crippling. There is no way to 'draw' enemies to your location or keep them from moving away. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 15:46, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd rather take a Dervish than a Warrior or Assassin personally. Well-played Dervishes are self-sustaining and do good AoE damage. To make a Dervish work, it's all about positioning. -- [[Image:User_Alaris_sig.JPG|Alaris_sig]] Alaris 16:20, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Eh, I'd rather take a W/D than a D/X for PvE. Strength cuts down the armor of enemies, and along with infinite energy from Warrior's Endurance, you end up dealing a lot more damage than with a dervish primary.71.53.68.39 21:47, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well that, I unfortunately have to Agree with. My W/D does over 200 DMG hits sometimes to Hardmode Mobs.  It's kinda ridiculous how awesome stacked Penetration is... -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 21:56, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Y'all kinda makin' meh feel bad now, my Main is a Derv/Mesmer :( ....(didn't stop me from pullin out a HM Win on Thirsty River using only H/H's tho!).  I'm guessing though this is more about how the Gimmick builds totally upstage a well-played Dervish or Mesmer and less about these Classes actual Primary Stats... -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 21:34, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I much prefer playing with my derv, and derv heroes than either warrior or assassin. I rarely if ever will add an assassin hero to a party. My dervish is my main, and favorite character, though my warrior is older. My second favorite profession to pve with is my mesmer, so I don't know what that says about your assumption that these are two professions that need to be reworked. (maybe it just means I suck, but my primary derv has 26 maxed titles, and my legendary survivor is my second dervish so that's gotta mean something.) --[[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px | Wyn's Talk page]] Wyn 22:16, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That's what I'm hoping to find out from Linsey. ...My Paragon is the only class I'm STILL having a really hard time with (It took me SIX HOURS the other night just to beat CrossRoads on Hardmode with her and I had to use TWO n00bCubes just to do it)...And building a workable Assassin "Hero" has also been difficult for me... -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 22:21, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess my comments were aimed more at Azazel and Mith :D --[[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px | Wyn's Talk page]] Wyn 22:24, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You misunderstood me. I never said Dervishes are worse than Assassins and Warriors. In fact, in terms of NPCs I say they are the best of the three, and of a "good" player of each profession, Dervish is just under Assassin and way above Warrior. My point is that Dervishes also need a overhaul - and I added onto that, that every profession does. -- Azazel the Assassin/ talk 22:54, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't believe I misunderstood you, but perhaps you misunderstood me. "Most people I talk about regarding Dervishes say that Warriors and Assassins are almost always chosen over them (i.e., Dervishes are the least favored melee profession)." Anyone that chooses Warriors and Assassins over Dervishes, doesn't understand how the profession works. And imo, based on my accomplishments with them, they work just fine just the way they are in PvE (I'm making no claim to PvP since that is not part of this topic). I guess, I would rather you posted your own personal opinions rather than bringing the vague invisible masses into the discussion. It's very possible that the people you have been talking to play other rpg games, where warrior types and assassin types are the most common, and the most played, and they have not really delved into playing a Dervish. In my experience, as a profession, it does powerful AoE damage, has second-to-none self heal skills, and easy to maintain energy management combined with armor defense second only to Warriors, making them a very effective tank that can also do massive damage. I don't know what you would want to 'overhaul' about it, and I would be very disappointed personally if it were changed very much. --[[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px | Wyn's Talk page]] Wyn 23:58, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * @Wynthyst: You probably should not judge things based on accomplishments. It is not hard data. It is possible to get maxed titles on an E/W with no armor and with Frenzy and Healing Signet as the only skills taken, but that does not mean that the said E/W is good. Its the same thing for your dervish, just because it is able to get those maxed titles, that doesn't mean it is good.
 * @Ilr: Uhhh...how did you manage to fail with a paragon? If you play with a generic imbagon skillbar, its harder to lose than it is to win.71.53.68.39 00:17, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Did you even read my original post? Next time plz do before you respond, Thanks! (or click the icon in my Sig for more details about my build) -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 00:26, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As for basing how good something is by what it can accomplish, I really don't know any other way. I mean, in theory, I'm sure there are things about every profession that could be changed, but in practical play, if it accomplishes your goal, with little fuss, it's good in my book. I might point out that my vanquisher and guardian titles were mostly completed prior to EotN, so I did not rely on consumables or other crutch gimmicks. --[[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px | Wyn's Talk page]] Wyn 00:43, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think what happens with professions is that people get used to, or encouraged to (see gimmick builds) to play a profession only one way. I don't think PvE classes need to be changed more that player's perception  needs to change.  [[User:000_00_00_00/ramblings| '''remainder of my post is here

 ]] 000.00.00.00''' 00:54, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wyn, Assassins with scythes>Warriors with scythes>Dervishes with scythes whether you like it or not - Wuhy  [[Image:User_Wuhy_sig.jpg|18px]] 08:48, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * User:Auron/PvE Difficulty. "the cut-off for "effective" must be much higher than just "it works" for PvE."
 * Baddies running spear assassins manage to get most of the titles in the game. Hell, trubs got GWAMM on a barrage rit. That does not make either of those builds good, even remotely. When talking about build effectiveness, "it works for me/it wins pve" isn't really a good argument. - Auron 09:09, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

(RI) Just because the massive herd we call "the players" doesn't think a profession is useful or powerful, that doesn't mean said profession needs anything close to an "overhaul". Before Sorrow's Furnace, "the players" thought Necromancers were useless, and plenty of nerfs later here we are, still with that profession as one of the most powerful ones in the game. IMO, it's the apex of ignorance to assume it would be a good idea to change how all professions in the game work; a few professions have some issues yet to be resolved, but the majority of them is fine, PvE-wise. Erasculio 19:10, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You're kidding right? Necro was my first class 4 years ago and its stuck pretty solidly in my mind that MM's were always in high demand while Almost ALL of its other Elites have undergone functionality changes and the only one that actually got consistent nerfs was S.S.  It's gotten quite a bit of powercreep under soul mastery as well... -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 21:54, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * One of the Paragon's Elite damage-reduction shouts was actually replaced with more Run speed Buffing! - you seriously underestimate run speed boosts in pve. IT gets you faster mission completition, faster vanquishes and less downtime because some speed buffs also heal up minor damage from last fight. I would always slot in 'Fallback!' And be actually tempted to add 'Incoming!' Zweistein 11:51, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I think the proffessions need a closer look from a team perspective. A standard PvE team excists of a tank a few AoE DMG Dealers and a healer. The proffessions should be build around these 3 rolls.
 * Warriors for instance can work really well as a Tank and as a Damage Dealer but since Perma SF Yes i know it comes back everytime. Warriors tanks fel out of favor.
 * Rangers haven't seen play for ages since they do not have good AoE damage builds yes barrage but that isn't comparible to RoJ or SF damage wise. otherwise they are good single target utility but when do you fight a single foe without seeing it either die in a few seconds or neing backed-up by 100hundreds of other foes. And they aren't tanking since they don't have good skills in there primary attribute lines.
 * these are common damage dealers since they got lots of AoE skills but since Hard Mode has alot of high armored foes there dmg is not that high. And players have not find a way around it yet for the ele. ele's can play as tanks but yea Perma sf.
 * There damage is nice they got utility and they can use minions as tanks nothing wrong with this proffession maybe some more AoE damage options. though they can heal with monk or rit a secondary even though they heal less there Soul Reaping gives them a shit-load of enegry keeping them going.
 * the healers of all healers they are the best healers numerical wise. and players prefer these as healers oppused to necro healers though as hero's Necro's are leading. As tanks they are also good but for long-term tanking SF wins. as Damahe Dealers they not far behind thanks to RoJ and it's armor ignoring damage.
 * i don't know how these do after this update. But they still lack AoE damage options. As healers they are pretty weak since monk's just overthrow them in power and necro's in energy manegment.
 * They are good damage dealers but again besides Death Blossom and Crit Scythe's they don't have AoE options. As tanks they are the best because of shadow form.
 * Again the lack of AoE Damage. As tanks they are awsome because they are they party wide tank instead of tanking self the para can make everyone else a tank which is much more usefull on some points. they are prestating not well as healers there heals are mostly partywide but are minor compared to the monk skills.
 * Yes the Dervish they are awsome proffessions they can tank just like warriors even better maybe. More Energy regen for 10 armor lose. since they are overlooked as Damage Dealers. Why? because eventhough they have 4 pips of energy and eventhough they gain energy everytime a enchantments ends on them they just can't keep up against Warrior's Endurance energy gain. Yes they have Zealous Vow but it is a enchantment easily stripped, interrupted or used against you.
 * what i think? I think all proffessions should be centered arounf 1 or 2 rolls. Fox007  [[Image:User Fox007 sig4.png|19px|User:Fox007]] 23:09, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "As tanks they are awsome because they are they party wide tank instead of tanking self the para can make everyone else a tank" -- Do you have ANY evidence at all of this actually being the case for End-Game PvE content, that doesn't involve spamming S.Y.?? ...Also, Dervishes don't just have 10 less armor than Warriors, get your facts straight plz. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 23:57, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't forget assassins with scythes. dealing damage up to 250 per hit (to one foe). scythes are also pretty AoE. Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Sig.jpg|10px‎]] 07:28, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * @Ilr No if you have a para in your group you want it spamming SY! since para's Elites aren't noteworthy. There Elite spear attacks need 7 or 10 adrenaline everything is probebly dead when you get these full. there Healing Power cannot be compared to spamming Heal party. Other Party protections kills are overthrown by SY.
 * @Boro "besides Death Blossom and Crit Scythe's they don't have AoE options" And Since Sins lack options for Melee Attack Skills they lack a good amount of utility when playing Critscythe. Fox007  [[Image:User Fox007 sig4.png|19px|User:Fox007]] 10:14, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I rest my case then! (which was: Regarding Paras, the only Noteworthy Party "skill" they have left is a Warrior PvE shout which locks them into a single Secondary, and it's only available in Factions). -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 10:23, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * irl: before Sorrow's Furnace, necromancers were considered as useless as mesmers. After SF, even with the huge nerf to minion masters (the limit to the number of minions) and the nerf to Soul Reaping (limiting how often it triggers per group) and the nerfs to Spiteful Spirit, necromancers are still among the most powerful Guild Wars professions. Had Arena Net listened to players then, the profession would have suffered a completely unnecessary overhaul.
 * "A standard PvE team excists of a tank a few AoE DMG Dealers and a healer. The proffessions should be build around these 3 rolls": lol no. That's one of the worst suggestions I have seen. The cookie cutter mentality of "tank/nuker/healer" is one of the worst aspects of Guild Wars, and it's a very good thing that some professions fall outside suck limited mentality. Trying to reduce all the professions to those three roles would severily dumb down the game. Erasculio 13:49, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * oops fox my mistake... Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Sig.jpg|10px‎]] 15:35, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * @Fox: It may have escaped your notice somehow, but Critscythe Sins have an entire fully-specced attribute devoted to scythe-compatible attack skills. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  16:40, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * the only skills you really want to take from the scyhe Mastery are. Eremite's Attack / Mystic Sweep / Reaper's Sweep / Wounding Strike. Other skills which remove enchantments or gives you energy are useless because A. a Crit Sin needs enchantments. B. they have eneough Emanegment from there Critical Hits. the other skills do less damage then mentioned 4 skills. Fox007  [[Image:User Fox007 sig4.png|19px|User:Fox007]] 18:47, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ummm Since when is tank'n'spank desirable tactis in gw pve? Lack of tanking options is not a problem for any class. As for your fixation on aoe damage and straight healing when in pve ... you neeally need wow/eq detox and stop trying to shoehorn gw classes to tank'n'spank paradigma on which other mmos are built Zweistein 11:46, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh, ^So much this^, I get so tired of the Everquest "Holy Trinity". But hey, if ya find time, your own write-up on these issues would be most welcome...sounds like ya might have some good alternatives -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 20:49, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

My three cents on PvE
 * I really have nothing against the warrior, I'm too inexperienced with them in PvE because I generally am fine with them using Hammers... I don't really like tanks because they just empty a slot unless I'm doing something specialized.
 * I feel they are already a substantial, powerful profession. I also feel they lack alot of options for changing build... Maybe some decent Blind AoE... Barrage+X for everything else.
 * They need some more DPS options, again... fire is nice, but variety is nicer... put some creative thought into Air/Water (Earth is decent already) to spruce it up a little.
 * They're amazing. Endless Options, diverse roles etc. This kind of variety is why Necromancer is the sex.
 * They're fine, Hybrid builds are very fun to play and very powerful to have on my side in PvE.
 * I always thought they were powerful, but the new update has made my favorite profession mainstream (which is always nice)... however the class is almost there, being unable to stack spirits it'd be nice to have a few more options (btw. Mending Grip and Spirit Light are still absolutely useless).
 * They ARE the best option for general Melee damage, no one knows that of course. Perhaps more ease of single target killing (that don't rely on Ebon anythings to kill) ... the AoE is fine, Death Blossom deals ridiculous amounts of damage, then there is the Crit Scythe and even Flashing Blades (The latter being weaker than the first two).
 * Lack of options, they have one build (and though it's the best)... it's so boring not being able to switch from time to time :(
 * Avatars check... Orders check... Solid alts to using a Scythe to damage... nope.
 * I think Mesmers are so hot right now (No idea what everyone else is saying), they have very high AoE damage, alot of team synergy with the new update to Fragility (The damage I get from relying on others to spam conditions while I spam the gorgeous generic condition spreader/maybe Daze is epic), apart from maybe splitting VoR for PvE I'm absolutely content with the Warlock of GW Nikdanbro 03:14, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Wuhy's Suggestion

 * Issue
 * well, the most important thing would be nerfing 600/smite and perma sf


 * Suggestion
 * after that:
 * scythe is op, dervish in general is too weak, buff avatars, buff earth prayers, buff wind prayers, nerf scythes to 2 second activation(PVP too, this in itself wouldnt solve the problems so another thing is restricting a profession's primary attribute effect to its own skills, like assassins have more crit chance with daggers only, and rework skills like Way of the Master.. monks primary attribute for example is perfect because it only affects monk skills)
 * no problem here, only shadow form and maybe the lack of deadly-arts usefulness but meh, usually players use assassins promise but only on ele/mes so consider buffing some skills(not raw power, but utility wise)..
 * utility skills pls, you can buff things like  as far as: Hex Spell. For  seconds, target moves 50% slower.
 * armor in HM is too high, lower that, then eles will be useful
 * normal monks nowadays rather run smite+OP pve only skills than any kind of heal/prot... well, meh
 * only WE is useful elite nowadays coz they need the energy for op stuff like asuran scan and power attack and scythes... also, they are overshadowed by assassin tanks
 * reduce bow activation time overall, see Lilondra's page... also we need more aoe
 * fine as they are
 * some utility spawning power skills pls
 * nerf SY for them, it is a warrior skill after all, give them some aoe
 * conclusion is that pve skills are homogenizing pve, perma sf and 600/smite is so darn broken that is does 99% of hm with ease and entire pve is about dommoges now, this is bad... - Wuhy  [[Image:User_Wuhy_sig.jpg|18px]] 04:29, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * could I add that last quote to the front page, plz? ...PS: wut's "dommoges", some kind of Mezmer Meta? -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 04:48, 8 July 2009 (UTC)