ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Necromancer/Wail of Doom

Discussion
The old skill was fine. It was very powerful melee hate that got stronger as the player got better. Old stats, lower cost and reload.  nuke7    12:00, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Nice Sig =P. Yeah I personally Would rather they just revert it.--The Gates Assassin 12:07, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

its only overpowered in 4v4 arenas, and since anet doesn't care about TA/RA at all they probably won't change this, unless it comes to be a problem in GvG 189.70.155.16 15:17, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't need to revert it, I like the new style, but in it's current form it is over-powered. Maybe raise recharge by 2-5 seconds, increase duration by 1 or so and make the cast time at least 1 second so we have a change of preventing it. --75.176.60.177 21:35, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the current duration and recharge would be fine with a 2 second cast time.--The Gates Assassin 21:59, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * This is a skill aimed for PvP, and a 2 second cast time is a bit overkill in my opinion. PvP is too fast paced for something so clunky, with rare exceptions. On the other hand, it's a crazy powerful skill, so maybe. I dunno, maybe raise cast time to 1 second for a week and see how it goes. --75.176.60.177 22:07, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * maybe make it 8 sec lasting 10 sec recharge and half some1's atribute? dont forget you can remove the effect.


 * 3 Second cast, 20 recharge, makes it interruptible and less wtf imba. Antiarchangel 22:41, 7 Mar ch 2008 (UTC)
 * The strength of the skill is in it's spike assist capacity, meaning that the Hex isn't one that will last long, maybe not even it's full duration. Removing it before the spike is finished is tricky, which is the reason why I suggested the increased duration, recharge, and cast time. Roughly the same effect if it is fired off, whether played as pressure or spike assist, and a better chance of preventing it, as well as having worse consequences by interrupting it. (EC) I think 20 recharge is a lil much. --75.176.60.177 22:43, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * 30s recharge is harsh. 10 energy and 15 recharge would be better. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 03:05, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * For what this skill does? It pretty much says you are useless for 4 seconds. Antiarchangel 03:13, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I haven't played with the big boys (read:HoH or GvG guest) since this update, but AB was crawling with this. MiraLantis 04:41, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * What about making it cause blind and daze to make it counterable with condition removal? -- Gordon Ecker 04:48, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Make it a shout so people can't echo it--74.61.209.219 04:49, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Interesting idea, however, that would break the idea that it's a hex to start. If it's a shout, then it isn't even removable. I wouldn't like that idea so much. MiraLantis 04:51, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

How about putting on a 3/4 activation time and make it have to interrupt a skill to activate? Klumpeet  .talk .cont. 07:49, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Let it only work when target foe is using a skill/ is attacking and increase recharge to 15. That would be enough to balance it I think. Dark Morphon  (contribs)  10:03, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

don't complain about the current best necro elite, they finally have some place on high-end pvp , the skill is perfectly fine on it's current state , just change it from spell into skill , so it won't be used with arcane echo , no other nerfs on this 189.70.182.90 10:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Lol have you ever played Hexspam? Plus you want this as a skill, Removable hex make it more imba. This skill owns in Arenas and 4v4, you HAVE to take it, or else your gonna get killed by it. Antiarchangel 16:44, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

10 energy, 20 recharge, 1 second cast, raise duration to 1...6 (Kinda like diversion). Or change to: All of target foes attributes are set to zero for 1..5 seconds and all of your attributes are set to 0 for 5 seconds. 1 cast, 10 recharge, 1 energy.--The Gates Assassin 21:26, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Increase sacrifice to 25/33%, recharge to 12/15 seconds. 79.67.56.62 23:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

i have played as WoD, and played against WoD , it's not overpowered , it's just powerful like corrupt enchantment on 4v4 arenas , and ONLY at arenas 189.70.109.131 01:24, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Ur doin it wrong. When something spikes, put it on the monk. Then they WILL die. --The Gates Assassin 03:52, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * That's why it should only work when the foe is using a skill or attack imo. Dark Morphon  (contribs)  08:56, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * /agree [[Image:User_Klumpeet_Klumpeetsignature.jpg|19px]] Klumpeet  .talk .cont . 09:01, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * All this skill really needs is to be made so it cant be echo'd and maby make the maximun duration of the skill 3 seconds rather then 4 I think this skill was changed in mind set that it weakens monks so spikes can be more succesful. It even if covered can be countered by skills that remove multiple hexesExpel Hexes,Withdraw Hexes,Divert Hexesect. Infact I guess that WoD was changed so that these elites would be used (Marsc 16:14, 9 March 2008 (UTC))
 * No the problem with elite hex removal is that if you don't play a hex team, guess what you got a useless elite on your bar Antiarchangel 16:20, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * This needs to adjusted so that it requires moar skill to play with. A recharge increase ain't gonna solve solve it, it still hurts like hell and costs too freaking little. making it a shout is a good idea, too. Fits with the wail theme. An option would be to up the sacrifice to 50%, to make it really taxing to the user, but still potent enough. or, It could be made into a shout, and the cost could be upped to 25. Those both fix it, but the best diea would be to revert the skill back to it's original stats. [[Image:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg|19px]]   nuke7    [[Image:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg|19px]] 19:14, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * 50% sounds like too much imo. 33%. 25 is too much too. 15 or 10. I really think it should just be like blackout but with attributes.--The Gates Assassin 19:27, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * 50% really fits with the doom theme: a highly risky skill that severely cripples your enemy. and no, this is better than blackout for two reasons: Ranged, nigh instant cast, and the potential to hurt anything, including auto attacks. [[Image:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg|19px]]   nuke7    [[Image:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg|19px]] 14:47, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm saying that it SHOULD be like blackout, in that you lose all ur attributes as well.--The Gates Assassin 03:49, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * oh, I get the idea now. Sorry, my bad. Still, that is not very nerfed now, is it? the necro packing this would probably won't help in the spike, but the monk receiving the business end will seriously feel it. A 50% sacrifice turns this into a "kill me, kill you" kind of skill. It will roll bad players, but good ones will get the necro and they will get payback. Oh, and it will be counterable by the use of Scourge Sacrifice, too! Yeah, I like that idea. It also stops chaining it. [[Image:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg|19px]]   nuke7    [[Image:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg|19px]] 08:56, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * But with ur idea it turns into a lulz kinda skill. With mine...i guess mine doesn't really do that much at all.--The Gates Assassin 03:31, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Izzy, I don't know what the hell you were thinking. I don't know if you were high, drunk, whatever. Do you even play this game anymore, did you think of how this would impact the game? Think of it right now, at 13 soul reaping, it lasts for 4 seconds, with a 10 second recharge, 1/4. That makes it nearly IMPOSSIBLE to interrupt, and with nothing else, it can be upkept for nearly 40% of the time. So, in essence, this skill is - target foe is completely useless for 40% of the time. 3v4 for 40% of the time, makes a huge difference. Hex removal, why would you bother? By the time you react to it, because lets face it, all good monks veil, and a WoD is going to have a rip enchant or something along those lines, 1 second cast, double click to remove, it's 2.5 seconds, if your good. 25% for good people... this totally ruins monks with pressure, if people are dejenned down to like 50% hp, and your facing an evis or something, hell, he's not even going to go for the monk because the WoD will make the monk useless as shit. At 0 healing prayers, WoH heals for 5 with a boost of 0, and 0 divine favor. While I could heal that target for about 250, it's down to 5. Do you see the difference Izzy? This needs nerf, nao. 2 Suggestions

1) Increase recharge to 15, keep 1/4 and 10 energy I think it is, and change skill description to - If target foe is using a skill, that foes attributes are decreased to 0 for 1..3 seconds, with 14 as the buffer for 4 seconds. That will also decrease the effect of antimelee, making TA a bit easier on the monks themsleves but the melee aspect.

2) Increase recharge to 15, put to 1 second cast time, 10 energy, keep skill description, but put 14 as the buffer for 4 seconds on it.

That's all I got. But it needs to be changed, now. This skill is completely imba for 4 v 4. 99.243.29.245 06:32, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Stop flaming izzy. he does not need to hear it. As to reply to Gates, My suggestion really turns it into a daredevil skill. It is very dangerous to both the user and the receiver, and it has a built in counter, if necromancers become more powerful then intended. Oh, and your idea won't hurt the necroes spamming this all day long, this is more potent than blackout. [[Image:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg|19px]]  <font color="#ee6600"> nuke7    [[Image:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg|19px]] 15:55, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * NO it does not. It turns it into a crap skill that no one is willing to take. 50% is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to much! It's just not worth it if you are going to keep it up that much in 4 v 4. It needs to be stopable, not unuseable. 1..2 second cast time might work. Also makes it so it's only up less of the time is a good idea. 20 seconds recharge or just 15 is good as 99... said. with that change it is only up about 20% of the time...still slightly too powerful but with 20 recharge it goes down to 16%. With the 10 energy it shouldn't be that much of a problem.--The Gates Assassin 02:56, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I know that I would take it in that form, as it forces kills and let's the game playout. But maybe that's just me. [[Image:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg|19px]]  <font color="#ee6600"> nuke7    [[Image:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg|19px]] 15:15, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Shar'd suggestion > the other 3, making this an interrupt is excellent 189.70.139.68 00:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * isn't that like a buff? --<font color="Black">Cursed Angel [[Image:User Cursed Angel Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 01:23, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Nope, attribute reduction isn't unconditional. --71.229.204.25 01:25, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * i'd suggest making it require the target to use a skill for the hex to work without interrupting the skill. adding an interrupt effect on this even if it makes it conditional would create the best interrupt skill ever --<font color="Black">Cursed Angel [[Image:User Cursed Angel Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 01:40, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Aggreed, also Necromancers don't really do interrupts. At all. <font color="Black">Dark <font color="Black">Morphon <font color="Black"> (contribs)  08:18, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree too, but necromancers do have some interrupts. [[Image:User_Klumpeet_Klumpeetsignature.jpg|19px]] <font color = "#000">Klumpeet  .<font color = "#C09F1C">talk .<font color = "#C09F1C">cont . 16:11, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Ye but they are different from normal interrupts. <font color="Black">Dark <font color="Black">Morphon <font color="Black"> (contribs)  15:38, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * As it is now, it's an interrupt. My change would only limit when you could use it. Even without making it a "real interrupt," casting a skill with 0 spec is no different from being interrupted. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 23:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Just make it last a little longer with a longer recharge. Perhaps lasts 1..10 seconds, 30 second recharge. If you nerf it to hell, nerf diversion too, since they both prevent casting. Both are hexes, but since WoD lasts so little, hex removal is worthless. Moush 17:57, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I like Shard's suggestion. The other ones (except Drasu's) seem to be overkill to me. A. von Rin 01:41, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Give it a 1 second cast time, 12 second recharge and learn to interrupt.--The Gates Assassin 04:02, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * agree on the 12 second recharge, but keep the cast time the same so that it can catch other skills. increase the cost to 10 energy. - jayce 64.253.5.164 06:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No because that would be overpowered and not be any difference to the skill at all. 10 energy isn't hard to keep up since necros have soul reaping and foul feast. 1 second recharge is the way to go. Oh and this isn't suppose to be an interrupt skill, it's suppose to be a shutdown you can do nothing about, but that's overpowered so it needs some way to be stopped.--The Gates Assassin 06:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

am i the only 1 seeing this
guys, Yes its a powerfull skill,but powerfull is NOT overpowered,A hammerwarrior can knockdown somebody for 4 seconds with backbreaker,requiring no sacrifice just some skill,Knockdown is not something that can be removed but it can be prevented(however preventions can be removed 2).Blocking and anti-kd as well as blind can be countered quite easely,Furthermoreso can this spell (if ya can remove diversion within a second so can ya remove wod).Above that wod isnt a problem that big as most spikes use DW so rc will heal and help against it.Knockdowns can be far more powerfull then this so pls stop begging for a nerf cause nerfing this skill is killing it.Lilondra 15:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * But Shard's suggestion is so pretty cool because it makes the skill better for good players and only worse for bad ones. That's nothing that would kill the skill... And I don't think people want to destroy this skill, most like it. But now it is too easy for bad players to become effective through it. A. von Rin 16:19, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * "If target foe is using a skill, that skill is interrupted and that foe's attributes are set to 0 for (1..4) seconds." Increase energy cost to 5.  remove the Italic part--The Gates Assassin 20:04, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * No, that's good. A. von Rin 00:34, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Aggreed, we don't need Necromancers to interrupt things.

Bad players use this at bad moments so they wont take this.Good players have better options so they wont take it.pls its not op its perfectly balanced.Lilondra 13:10, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Good players have better options? This is perfectly balanced? What are you smoking, can I have some? This is, by far, better than diversion, better than BB, better than anything. It is the pinnacle of shutdowns. It is the king necromancer elite. Why should I take anything, when I can have a "4 seconds of limitbreakage"? Why should I take any other necromancer elite, when this monstrosity just says fuck you to ANYTHING? Yeah, ANYTHING. Comparing this to Backbreaker is such a joke - BB is a fucking hammer attack, it needs fucking melee range, and has a fucking 10a cost. WoD casts nigh instantly, costs almost nothing, It a fucking hex that lasts only 4 seconds so all hex removal just goes whoosh. blocking can be countered easily - WHAT THE FUCK? Ever tried to wail on a target with disciplined stance, or with return, or with guardian, or with shield of deflection (not meta but still) or with ward against melee or with defensive anthem or with aegis or with refuckingcall? Backbreaker just fans the air. Wod isn't a problem that big in spikes? WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING? YOU try to heal through a spike when all your skills don't do anything - sure, you got DW, but YOUR OPPONENT; WHO ALSO HAS A FUCKING BRAIN, GET TO WAIL ON YOUR HELPLESS BACKLINE FOR 4 WHOLE FUCKING SECONDS. THATS 4 FUCKING SECONDS, ENOUGH FOR ANY IDIOT WITH AN IOTA OF BRAIN TO FUCK YOU UP. Nerfing this is killing it? Huh? Izzy has demonstrated in the past that he can nerf without fucking things up. this needs a nerf, because it is the ace of spades, in a game we have nothing greater than Jacks. I refuse to play GW until necroes lose their ranged 4 sec clusterfuck. Sorry for the fucking profanity, I just can't stand people trying to sway arguments so they don't lose their precious, and I'll repeat myself, 4 SECOND RANGED INSTANT NEARLY FREE IMPOSSIBLE - TO - REMOVE CLUSTERFUCK! [[Image:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg|19px]]   <font color="#ee6600"> nuke7    [[Image:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg|19px]] 16:53, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * so... you refuse Guilt, Defiant Was Xinrae, Atrophy, Signet Of Humility, Hex Breaker, Holy Veil, Mistrust, kiting, or even Wail Of Doom itself. 4 seconds? i guess that is too long. a 25 energy 1 second duration touch skill instead of spell should put your fears to rest, then Arenanet will fly you out to Washington so that they can thank you in person for all the money that you will just throw at them whenever you log into GW. it is not that serious. calm down. - jayce 64.253.5.164 21:47, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Nuclear pls calm down,if they didnt have better options it would be meta everywhere and as i check atm it isnt;).Learn 2 shadowstep and as you said blocking can be easely countered.It is not the only shutdown ;) in GVG you run dualmonk for a reason and often you got a flagrunner,a dervish with imbue or something else that can also support you (if you dont you fail).I can tell you that 2 diverted skills can be far more of a pain then a 4 second wail of doom.You say it should be nerfed? fine by me but nobody actually uses this anyway.Topguilds are able to spike without it (yes even with a balanced even with a split !) so its often an overkill even if it does work.In ta its usefull i know but you dont face it any more (and we dont play it any more because we got something better).Lilondra 06:12, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, to two posters up above, none of those skills are close to WoD. They only deal with a single skillü while wail makes your entire bar go wham. Oh, and do you compare deifant was xinrae to Wod? Pls don't. Defiant sucks, and wail of doom does not. a clear difference. @ lil, sorry for the aggression, I was having a bad day. Still, my point stands. This is too fucking powerful. The only reason people don't run it is because all the other good skills necroes have to offer are not relevant (perhaps excluding FF). If they had gamebreaker skills like the Rts did, you'd see more of them. Oh, and blocks are not easy to deal with, you misunderstood my post. Furhter more, most gvg teams are composed of, say, 2 man frontline, 3 man midline, 2 man backline, and 1 runner. Let's assume that you have a WoD necro, and one BB and one shock axe. you can simultaneously shutdown 3 characters during a spike, for 3-4 seconds, long enough to kill anything.
 * And to all users who think this is fine, consider what would happen if, say...
 * You are playing a strategy game and the opponeny has the ability to halt your production for 40% of the game.
 * You are playing a fps and your opponents have some power that stop you from firing, 40% of the game.
 * You are playing a RPG and you don't gain any money, health or experience 40% of the time.
 * You are playing a racing game and the opponent has the ability to lower your speed by 40%, permanently.
 * You are in an adventure game and all the items you found have a 40% chance of breaking, randomly.
 * You are playing a turn based strategy and your opponent can make you skip 40% of your turns.
 * See what I mean? [[Image:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg|19px]]  <font color="#ee6600"> nuke7    [[Image:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg|19px]] 13:50, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * look nuclear, you said it yourself. all the other "good necro skills" are not relevant. that is a problem. arenanet took a step back and redesigned a necro skill worthy for use in today's meta. but guess what, they are still not using it in gvg. one skill is not going to solve the problem with necromancers. but its a step in the right direction. now lets look at the 40% issue you keep mentioning that really only applies in a perfect world. diversion (the skill that is probably closest to wail of doom in terms of ranged dangerous skills) also has an up-time of 40%, and that's without any skill related recharge buffs. heaven forbid if you factor in fast casting and mantra of recovery (at 13 att.) the up-time becomes 67%. thats long enough to disable 6 skills before the first disable skill recovers from it's near 1 minute downtime. and diversion is not even an elite skill. however, wail of doom is an elite. don't misunderstand me, i do think that wail could use a recharge increase to 12 seconds and an added 5-10 energy cost. if wail should see play in gvg and it turns out to be used like diversion(hint), then i think a function change to lower the attribute by 7 or 8 points instead of all the way to 0. the rest should be up to the opposing player to counter wail just like they would counter any other skill. - jayce 64.253.5.164 20:27, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

If youre using 3 times Wail of doom you phail rly.(Like on my build ; Split says hi).Wail of doom is powerfull but so is diversion,so is guilt,so i a knockdown (goe + gale also disables all non stance skills for 2 seconds wich is ENOUGH to spike and you keep the good mesmer skills).So while WoD is powerfull it isnt uber.Youll often have off monk support (if you dont you also phail) and there gale mesmer can just shut you down.Also like jayce said (she does make a good point) the skills you can combine it with WITHOUT sacrificing youre secondary proffession or something are just to meh.The hex is not worth covering neither is it worth removing.Lilondra 08:59, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Diversion is nowhere near WoD. WoD is instant. Diversion casts in 3 seconds. Very, very big difference. Diversion is a risk or reward skill. Not only it can be bypassed, it can be avoided if need be. WoD is not so. @ lil, My backline does not use 3 wails. It uses one BB, one shock axe, and one WoD, and the other two midliners can be anything you want (no need for draw, you already got FF). Wail is too powerful. One day, some jackass will make a build eerily similar to sinsplit, using WoD. Then we'll see whether it needs a nerf or not. The argument of "nobody uses it, so its not broken" is usually right, but not here. few people run Weapon Of remedy, but it is fucking broken. Why do I keep repeating Myself? Wail is too powerful a shutdown. Why argue? [[Image:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg|19px]]   <font color="#ee6600"> nuke7    [[Image:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg|19px]] 15:04, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Sry i forgot that losing youre elite and some other skills is not near as important as wod,I mean its not like we need infuse anyway when they spike for 600 damage + DW or why use woh patient spirit is much better when you need to heal,yes indeed elites are overrated.I mean having youre attributes to 0 is much worse then being useless for an entire minute because youre best skills where disabled.Lilondra 17:36, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


 * To quote another person..."HAI GUYS IM NOT OVERPOWERED SEE YA LATER!". "Topguilds" cba trying some gimmick trash for reason because they don't want another sin-split meta...those builds usually come from korean/japanese guilds which are atm focused on abusing A/D spiking. This could be efficient skill on balanced midlines with newly buffed possibly usable other necroskills, yet most prefer b-surge as 90% chance to miss is pretty nice (+you get gale and a free utility secondary). Lilondra is right in the fact that spike shouldn't require this (when there' KDs, Shame/Div, blackout etc.), but as for comparison with diversion: how many times your mesmers diversion has gone dshotted? (Can't compare 3 second cast and 1/4 second casts really, elite or not.) Imo this skill is overpowered in situations where one character makes much difference in small time (like in TA, when you have only 1 monk), but otherwise it is balanced...idk how it'd be in splitting with sins, but cba to theorycraft. Forget it's "OPness" in GvG for now, even Empathy is broken tbh.


 * Could use a nerf in casting time to 1 sec? Then you could interrupt it (even with some lag) in TA, but a change in duration/cost/effect seems too much for me. 91.152.187.154 22:21, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Shard's idea ("If target foe is using a skill, that skill is interrupted and that foe's attributes are set to 0 for (1..4) seconds." Increase energy cost to 5.) makes it harder to use it, without making it really worse because of the interrupt. And 5 energy instead of 1 energy is nothing that will hurt you on a Necro. (Still the best idea on this site) A. von Rin 00:05, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Shards idea is the best so far, along with upping the cost and the sac. But mark my words, one day, some guild will start abusing this, and people will beg for nerf. remember Sineptitude? that just came out of the blue. When this does become powerful you'll want to nerf it. Let's just be smart and prevent the problem before it happens. [[Image:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg|19px]]  <font color="#ee6600"> nuke7    [[Image:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg|19px]] 15:53, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I agreed from the beginning to adjust this skill, but I'm really afraid of this being raped by Izzy. :/ A. von Rin 16:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I see this as a kind of ranged knockdown where you can still move. On one hand, you've got things like Signet of Judgment, which is an elite, "Hi, you're useless until you get up" skill. Throw it on a warrior with stonefist gauntlets and you've got a ranged, no-conditions required, 100% snare and all skills but stances are disabled. For 3 seconds. Compare this to WoD - Ranged, yes. 4 seconds, so it's slightly longer. But you're not held in place, you can still move. It's counterable by many things - hex breaker, spellbreaker, holy veil... the list goes on. IF it needs balance - and having faced it in both GvG and the arenas, I'm not sure if it does - I'd suggest increasing the sacrifice cost to discourage spamming via Arcane Echo. --Phydeaux 20:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Stop trying to compare horrible skills to overpowered ones. SoJ is insanely weak, like all of smiting, and no warrior is going to waste his elite on it just for an extra second of knockdown when he can bring Shock. Try Gale; oh, wait, a three second gale was too powerful. Now we have... A four second gale with no exhaustion? What? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 18:06, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * So...this skill is balanced because Backbreaker exists? Does this skill require you to hit someone else 11 times?   You can blind/blurred against this skill?  You can kite this skill?  You can interrupt it?  You can use anti-blackout skills against it?  All this is news to me.  Play some TA then tell us it's balanced.
 * This skill takes one player out of a match for 40% of the match. No other skill does that.  Gale used to do it for 3 seconds, and now look how they changed it. ~Shard (talk) 04:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see this skill terribly often, which surprises me. If it doesn't see huge amounts of use, it won't get changed. Lord of all tyria 18:11, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * If you think "unusable" means the same thing as "unused," you need to stop posting here. ~Shard (talk) 00:44, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * He seems to think that Izzy normally doesn't nerf "unused" skills and I'm pretty sure he is right. A. von Rin 11:23, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, when he commented, I assumed he was adding to the conversation instead of telling me what I already know: Izzy is bad at picking out good skills from bad ones. I didn't realize he was only trying to point out the obvious.
 * In any case, this skill is broken up to its eyeballs with its free, uncounterable "remove target player from the game" effect. Even my suggestion isn't good enough, it needs an energy cost too. 72.235.48.41 11:36, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm having a "D'OH!" moment right about now. Thnx @ Armond and Shard for backing me up. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  20:25, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

When do you see this skill being used??William Wallace 10:15, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * not used doesn't mean not broken. This will get abused shortly. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  11:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you one hundred percent. Ten years from now this skill will be overly abused in the Guild Wars meta-game. Seriously, this skill is not being used much at all and just because it looks like it is overpowered on paper, doesn't mean it is.William Wallace 18:01, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Ever been to TA? Hell, even sway has started using this now... -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 14:51, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Overpowered!
Wail of Doom is overpowered! Yes, you already know that. I challenge anyone that's still defending this skill a good way to counter WoD. I list out a few that I already thought of. Lightblade 09:30, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Humility: Doesn't work, Humility can get Wailed too. Plus the signet get interrupted.
 * Holy Veil: Something you can't maintain forever and doesn't recharge as fast.
 * Interrupt: Too fast for reliable interrupts
 * Any other skills just get wailed right back.


 * OH BUT LIGHTBLADE I CAN DEVOTE HALF MY TEAM TO BRINGING DAZE + MIGRAINE JUST TO SHUT DOWN THE WAILERS. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 15:11, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Nope, that doesn't work. Cast duration extension capped at 200%, WoD's 1/4 cast can just ignore it.  Besides, your Migraine and Daze is going to get Wailed to 5 second duration anyway.  Lightblade 22:20, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * LOL LOL LOL I CAN BRING 8 DSHOTTERS WITH EXPERTS DEXTERITY TO RAIN SHOTS ON THE WAILER, AMRITE????!?!??11?? IF ALL RANGERS GOT HEAL PARTY; WE'D BE OK! -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  13:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * For 15 damage each shot, I'm guessing you won't be killing anything even if I'm not using WoD. Besides, expert's dexterity puts big stress on your energy, you can't keep that up for more than 10 seconds.  Lightblade 22:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * LOL I BRING BOTH MIGRAINE AND DAZE BECAUSE THEY GET WAILED TO RIDICULOUS DURATIONS. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 17:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see how you defeated my argument with that. Lightblade 22:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Just wondering, Lightblade, if you really don't see that the the comments in caps are meant to be sarcastic, and in fact are agreeing with you. Kokuou 22:21, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I know, but someone going to say something like that sooner or later. Better to answer it straight off.  Lightblade 23:49, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol diversion. -- Rayd   [[Image:User rayd sig.png|19px|talk]] 23:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * So they wait six seconds and then pop it off, or they wail the guy with diversion and then spike him down. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 00:04, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * There's a counter for everything, but yeah, this is overpowered. Diversion, Signet of Humility and Death are counters, but all 3 can be D-shoted or Wailed, while this is immune to that. -- Rayd   [[Image:User rayd sig.png|19px|talk]] 00:21, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, for one, how do you dshot dying? For another, how do you counter shouts? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 01:08, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 1. If you cant dshot death yur baed. 2. With wail, ofc. A fix for this can be one second cast or something like "If target foe is using a skill, target foe's atributtes are 0 for that skill" + more recharge, this would prevent mindless wail spamming. -- Rayd   [[Image:User rayd sig.png|19px|talk]] 10:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * YEAH WAIL SO POWERFUL ITS LIEK DHOT DIVERSION SIGNET OF HUMILITY DEATH AND METEOR SHOWER COMPOUNDED IN A ONE ENERGY QUARTER CAST HEX. LOL SO BALANCED, U CAN COUNTER IT BY KILLING THE WAILER LOL LOL IF YOU CANT DO IT U NOOB LOL LOL. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  14:02, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * There's some shouts what you don't care about the attribute, they're only there to trigger other things. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 14:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought this page was about Wail of doom. -- Rayd   [[Image:User rayd sig.png|19px|talk]] 19:04, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Dudes, you're rly not seeing it, are you? Wail is not broken, as you can just bring 5 mesmers and chain Guilt on the necro with it. Guilt chaining is one powerful tactic, use it! If fact, you could even Echo (or Arcane Echo) it and make do with 3 mesmers! :-) 86.10.17.180 13:41, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

WoD why it is broke and why it is not being used as a KD like you say it is
Ok....Lets talk about Wail of Doom. Izzy has said he thinks this skill is being used as a knockdown, in a sense, making a target useless and just have to sit there. However, there is a *BIG* differnce between how you think this skill is being used and how it is actually being used. Lets take a look at a comparrison. A 4 second KD is how you compare this skill to. So the only 4 second kd skill in the game is Backbreaker. Lets look at the differences. Backbreaker requires 10 adrenaline which btw is the MOST adren of any skill in the game, also it can take anywhere from 10-20 seconds to build. Backbreaker has melee range, and requires you to run up to the target. Backbreaker has 1 second activation, which makes it more easily d'shoted. Backbreaker can be blocked, and then make the person regain a ton of adrenaline before you ever have to worry about being useless for 4 seconds. Now lets look at WoD. Instant Cast, making it impossible to dshot. Caster range, meaning somone can sit in their backline and kd you for seconds. WoD turns all attribues to zero, so while with backbreaker you could use a stance, with WoD your stance is also useless b/c it lasts 0 seconds. Another thing, How many knockdowns take away 20 of your energy? Well this one does. Since WoD turns your attributes to 0, if you are already on your wand set/staff set, you lose the +20 energy or +17 energy that those items give you, because they require 9 in a specific attribute. THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM WITH WOD THAT YOU DONT REALIZE IS HAPPENING IZZY!!! Unblockable/unstopable, even with veil, or hex breaker, the skill is already on a necro so rend or gaze always accompanies it, and with hex breaker, as sooon as they see you have hex breaker they just cast a prehex like pb, break your hex breaker, then the instant cast of wod insures you cant get hex breaker back up. Next this skill has a 10 second recharge, and only COSTS 1 ENERGY which is bad enough as it is and makes it easily spammable, however the way wand sets are made up, a person doesnt even have to sit on a 40/40 set with this skill. They can take a normal +5E^50 health with HSR wand, and a +30hp with HSR focus. This gives them a ton of energy and a ton of health, along with having a 40% chance WoD will half recharge. Now how many times are you going to get this with backbreaker? So in essence, a necro can sit on this wand set, have a ton of health and energy, and get a half recharge of WoD about every other cast. THIS EQUALS TO 7 SECONDS OF OUT EVERY 10 SECONDS THEY CAN KEEP A 4 SECOND KNOCK DOWN ON YOU THAT IS UNSTOPABLE!! PLEASE tell me how this is anywhere close to how you think its just a 4 second kd, and you just expect people to deal with it. NO U FAIL AT BALANCING IZZY! Now lets summarize, ---WoD--- makes a MONK or any other target useless 7 out of every 10 seconds. This gives you 7 seconds to spike someone or to blast away with dmg, then you get 3 seconds of healing, and 7 more seconds to spike someone to do more dmg, and continues the rest of the match b/c there is no exhuaustion or any adrenaline needed to use WoD. Has caster range. Takes away 20 energy. Instant cast. Only costs 1 energy to use. Unblockable,Veilable. Basiclly this is the most over powered skill in the game. And just b/c retards in gvg havent figured how how strong this skill is yet, doesnt mean that it isnt being abused elsewhere.
 * It's pretty simple actually, you just pressure the WoD guy. 69.248.232.88 03:05, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * How is any pressure going to stop a quarter second cast that can be used from the backline, and then retreat even farther into the backline kiteing the entire time only stopping for a 1/4 second to cast? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:98.215.71.95 (talk).
 * It's hard to pressure a wail of doom necro when your critical scythe attack only does 8 damage. ~Shard (talk) 23:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * 10% Health Sacrifice and Aftercast Delay. User:Vipermagi 13:04, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 10% health sac? That is nothing I'm sorry. Its like 50 health, which is easily replaced by the simple +42 health divine favor bonus by any monk spell casted on them, which doesnt even include the health they will gain from what ever the spell was. Like RoF or Paitent spirit.  Aftercast delay?  Wow, so after the 1/4 second cast, there is another 1/4second after cast delay before they can move.  I dont think standing still for 1/2 a second is enough to "pressure the wod" guy. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:98.215.71.95 (talk).
 * Come on viper, don't make a fool of yourself and argue for this broken shit. 15:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Aftercast delay is, in fact, 3⁄4th of a second, not 1⁄4th. If you're any good at all, you have at least 600 hp, meaning 10% is 60 damage. It makes a difference in shit like TA where there's only one Monk (assuming semi-balanced-but-still-using-WoD-imba), and thus it is easier to pressure a player to death and beyond. Also, let me do as I please. --Vipermagi 21:15, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You should have offmonk support in TA. And viper, but I caaaareeee about youuu... -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  18:47, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

LOL....(1/4 + 1/4)....(3/4 + 1/4)....who gives a damn its still just ONE second. The point is this skill has the LOWEST casting time of any hex in the game and LOWEST ammount of time out of any skill in the game where your standing still, making it the EASYEST out of any profession to kite with THUS hardest to pressure. And LOL your other point about how great players have 600 health and infact will take 60 dmg instead of 50 dmg and that 10 dmg will make all the difference. LMAO I'm sorry but if your that bad that the BIG 10 DMG every 5-10 seconds makes the difference between winning and losing you just belong back in PVE. Thats like saying if I wand you one time every 25 seconds its gonna be enough of an increase in pressure to make u lose. LOL

New Skill to counter WoD --> Wail of Protection WoP
Since no one can come up with any kind of decent arguement on how WoD isnt overpowered. I decided to Invent a new skill that would give monks a chance. Elite Enchantment Spell, Wail of Protection. 1energy, 1/4 cast, 10 recharge. Descrption: for 1-4 seconds when this enchantment is cast on target ally, Any attacks, Spells, Hexs, or Life-stealig skills used against that target fail, and target becomes immune to any damage. Or any attacks, spells, hexs, or life stealing skills used against that ally have 0 in all their attributes, making them do very little if any dmg. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:98.215.71.95 (talk).
 * NO ****ING WAY. Add a 10% sacrifice and its perfectly balanced, like WoD. -- Rayd  [[Image:User rayd sig.png|19px|talk]] 13:41, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure Shadow Form just got nerfed, and you want to add this in? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 15:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh what Armond, you dont like that idea? How about something like this.... Wail Of Power. New Elite Enchantment Spell. 1 energy, 1/4 cast, 10 recharge. Descrption: for 1-4 seconds all target ally's attributes double. I'll let you use your imagination with this one, 600 pt heals, lvl 50 minions, 300+ dmg spells. Starting to sound ridiculous? Starting to think it may be too overpowered? Well take another look at the current WoD b/c its no differnt.
 * Did I ever say WoD was anything other than broken as all fuck? Take a read around, this is one of the worst balanced skills in the game. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 18:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

increase energy cost
This should prevent abuse of this skill over a longer period of time. &mdash;Zerpha The Improver 17:56, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 15 energy is still too cheap for what this baby can do, zerpha. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  21:27, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

add premise to work
The requirement of a condition in order to work should help to brace and prevent the effect by condition removal. &mdash;Zerpha The Improver 17:56, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

lower attribute reduction
Decreasing the attributes only to a decent number should leave the hexed foe not completely useless. &mdash;Zerpha The Improver 17:56, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps add a failure rate? It's not the only elite with a failure chance. --[[Image:User People of Antioch sig.png|Talk]] People of Antioch  03:47, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * fail at 4-8 attr mostly goes to skills that doesn't get better the more points u spend, like earth shaker, and no one use this with under 9 in sr anyway --<font color="Black">Cursed Angel [[Image:User Cursed Angel Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 15:39, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

add drawback while maintaining
Giving the user of this skill the same drawback as its foe should partly adjust both team's efficiency. &mdash;Zerpha The Improver 17:56, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * This idea is my favourite one. Nothing to add... - A. von Rin 14:17, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Sort of like blackout, except is elite and sacrifices health? Not worth it. Can't hit it that hard if you want to keep it playable. Maybe inflict weakness on yourself, but not reduce your attributes to zero. - Auron 14:18, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * weakness doesnt hurt casters, it'd only give necros another condition to transfer away --<font color="Black">Cursed Angel [[Image:User Cursed Angel Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 14:26, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Weakness doesn't reduce all attributes by 1 anymore? - Auron 14:35, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * how much does that hurt a necro? my point still stand --<font color="Black">Cursed Angel [[Image:User Cursed Angel Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 15:05, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Cursed is right, auron. If anything, they'll just carry plague transfer. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  15:39, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * yeah, that likely wouldn't nerf the skill that much. I thought if you carry the skill, you could build something arount to decrease the drawback (e.g. by taking skills without attribute that are untouched from the drawback). But you're actually right, auron, this nerf could be too hard. Maybe it chould get a limited decreasement instead, something like . This way the drawback couldn't be negated, yet it wouldn't leave the user that helpless. &mdash;Zerpha[[Image:UserZerpha The Improver sig.png|talk]] The Improver 01:14, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The thing I have against this skill is that you can use it on whatever's bashing on you - assassin, warrior, dervish, whatever - and watch their damage go to zero while you do whatever you want. Granted, it only works in small arenas while the enemy healer is down, but where else do you bring WoD? And even in small arenas weakness isn't much. A fixed attribute reduction would be much better. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 01:56, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You ever seen glad GvG? They bring it there, too.
 * It's bad to make an elite reduce your own attributes to zero. Ether Renewal much? You want to make it playable, not nerf it into oblivion. - Auron 03:43, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If you're running it at 14 spec like a smart person, then according to the above suggestion you'd be dropping your atts by like 6 each. Not a huge deal in order to shut down a monk for a spike. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 04:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Auron, reducing your own attribs to zero would still be broken. It will still be a 1 energy ranged blackout/gale/diversion that casts in a quarter of a second. That would still be awesome. This skill is not good for the game, so killing it is not a bad idea. If anything, it can be brought back to its older state, and the old WoD was awesome too. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  08:55, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 3-4 sec on u as a necro hurt less than 3-4 sec on a monk, just up energy to 10 and it would at least be less spamable --<font color="Black">Cursed Angel [[Image:User Cursed Angel Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 15:50, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe reduce the caster's main attribute to 0? -- M age [[image:user MageMontu sig.png| ]] M ontu 16:56, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Suggested multiple times. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  19:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Zerpha's version is the most intelligent here. You couldn't just spam it without thinking which skill to use next. You have to cast your hex or whatever else your build uses and afterwards you this skill on recharge of the other spells - much better! And the downside is big enough for the nice effect. Btw @ Nuclear: On this skill you've become blinded on balancing it because of your hate... ;-) A. von Rin 14:32, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * yeah, i also thought about that cursed, 'cause of that i thought my suggestion to completely reduce the caster's attributes to 0 wouldn't be a too harsh nerf. &mdash;Zerpha[[Image:UserZerpha The Improver sig.png|talk]] The Improver 14:35, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * He fucking asked for it. zuahahha. Any way, just nuke it already. WoD, Ursan, shadowsteps, scythes, they all deserve to be burnt and drowned in a puddle of sheep piss. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  18:51, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

People of Antioch's Issue
This should be fairly easy to interrupt. Though, if it isn't, it's punishing effects are lengthened as shown by my suggestion. I had the idea of a count down from 3 with this spell, as it is much like a spike. -- People of Antioch 21:29, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Glyph of concentration say hai2u. Oh, and since you are taking ele secondary, why not pop up a few wards? Yeah, sorry, but buffing the duration is a bad idea. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  13:42, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, hadn't thought about that, good point. KD is still effective against this, though I might revise my suggestion anyway. --[[Image:User People of Antioch sig.png|Talk]] People of Antioch  14:20, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, being "forced" to use GoC is still a nice nerf i think, currently you have this activation time without the glyph. With it you couldn't run A echo that nice with it. &mdash;Zerpha[[Image:UserZerpha The Improver sig.png|talk]] The Improver 12:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Forcing to use another skill for a 4 sec ranged free KD is nothing. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  13:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

How to fix this imba piece of shit
2s cast, 1-3s duration, 20% sacrifice, 20s recharge. That way spikes will still go through. Owut 21:33, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Balancing and destroying are two completely different things. You don't want to make it not worth it, you just want to make it counterable. 1 second cast, 20% sac, 20 recharge, 1..4..5 Duration.--The Gates Assassin 22:47, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Its not a bad idea to kill something that kills balance. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  13:40, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It is a bad idea to change a balanced good skill into an imba one and then kill it, instead of just changing it back to its good old stats! This idea just fails... A. von Rin 14:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * yeah anet regrettably tends to immediatly overnerf several skills...well, possibly some skill mechanics are simply very useful, making it hard to balance without killing the skill. &mdash;Zerpha[[Image:UserZerpha The Improver sig.png|talk]] The Improver 14:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * About the eightieth time I've said that revert this is the best way to go. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  15:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed, reverting it kills magebane, which in turn kills the magebane arenas meta. Sounds good to me. Owut 18:38, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * In what way exactly does this have anything do to with magebane shot rangers tbh? <font color="Black">Dark <font color="Black">Morphon <font color="Black"> (contribs)  14:42, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm pretty sure magebane meta was around long before WoD was imba. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 20:08, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * WoD was good before the function change, people are just bad at the game and don't know how to use skills unless they say "use this: you win." ~Shard (talk) 04:08, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * NO DONT CHANGE IT! I  that all fear necros in PvP now... sorry, but I love to be able to watch a warrior or sin run from me cause I have WoD *evil grin* (don't grill me, this was more of a joke comment [though it really is fun to watch melee run in horror hehe])  -- Shadowphoenix [[Image:User Shadowphoenix Necromancer.png|19x19px|Please, talk to me; I'm so lonely ;-;]] 04:57, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * While this skill is imba in many regards, it is kind of fun to watch a monk WoH himself and only get healed like 5%. Ezekial Riddle 05:23, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Ironically enough, fun has very little to do with balance. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  11:26, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

My suggestion fixes it all. The end. <font color="Black">Dark <font color="Black">Morphon <font color="Black"> (contribs)  15:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep, I'd personally raise the recharge to 12 but overall that suggestion is good.--The Gates Assassin 16:33, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It still is a free 4 second gale on a 10 second clock. A bit less abusable, but still, very, very, very good. I'm not so sure if it won't be abused. I'd say increase the recharge. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  02:00, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Very well. Recharge to twelve, after that and my changes it should be totally fixed. Keep in mind it's an elite skill, so it shouldn't be completely killed. <font color="Black">Dark <font color="Black">Morphon <font color="Black"> (contribs)  14:01, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Then revert it back. 12 is still to low, 15 is minimum, and 20 is the best option, I think. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  22:41, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If we make it 20 recharge it's an elite diversion...that is worse than diversion. Remember, this is still an elite and should be powerful, so long as it requires SOME amount of skill.--The Gates Assassin 04:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * ıt'd still be better than diversion: You can't cast under this. You can cast through diversion. you seem to be missing this. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  13:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You can't really compare this to diversion. Diversion works differently against smart and dumb people, and still allows you to take an "oh shit" action. This is an instant cast complete shutdown skill - no "oh shit infuse" for you. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 14:24, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Cursed Strikes again
Can we delete his blatant trolling? Actions like his are the reason these pages don't add up to much (That, and some inane suggestions). -- NUKLEAR   IIV  23:23, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * wel i egree wif im, te skil is so overratd. <font color="Black">Dark <font color="Black">Morphon <font color="Black"> (contribs)  08:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

What, I can't understand a word your saying. This skill is just fine as is, necromancers who use this skill can only play as a support role and they always collapse under pressure. The worst thing they can do is arcane echo this skill and just cast anti-melee hexes or use plague sending to spread conditions. One warrior can easily take out a Wail of Doom necromancer with a monk supporting them (which is what a monk should be doing supporting players).William Wallace 00:24, 1 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Nice job theorycrafting. Shame you're dead wrong - one wail on the warrior makes the necro pretty much invincible during his spike. (Practice throwing up a wail when he uses evisc - it's a good skill.) Then you can go back to "wailerrupting" the monk at will. If your monks are half competent and your wail necro is throwing around antimelee hexes like he should be, you can't touch him. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 02:49, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Shard's Issue 2
Still breaks arenas. Pretty easy to twitch a 3/4 spell, and once you've hit WoH the round's over because most monks don't carry any prots besides Guardian and degen is an arenas staple. --71.229.253.172 05:33, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Arenas? Oh, you mean those 4v4 places that nobody runs power block in anyway?  At least you can still do SOMETHING, except wail shuts down melees using attack skills while pblock doesn't.  That's really the only difference between pblock and my suggestion.  ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 05:37, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No, I mean those 4v4 places where Wail of Doom is permanently stapled to one out of every four bars. Since you misunderstood me, let me rephrase it: Twitch WoH once and their monk is basically removed from the game for 5..17..20 seconds instead of the current 0..3..4.  And still do something = what, exactly?  Try to redbar with Dismiss? --71.229.253.172 05:45, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That's what I do when I get power blocked. I heard protting also helps.  Rof was the best defensive skill in the game before Xinrae's Weapon was changed, try it sometime.  ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 05:47, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * most monks don't carry any prots besides Guardian and degen is an arenas staple. --71.229.253.172 05:33, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The meta balanced monk build is WoH, Patient, Guardian, Dismiss, Veil, Spotless Mind, Disciplined Stance, and Shield Bash. It's that way because there's so much monk hate and hexshit in the meta that you can't afford to carry less than two defensive spells and two hex removals.  What should be dropped for RoF? --71.229.253.172 05:59, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Probably gonna EC you here, sorry. The Veil/Spotless isn't really true anymore since a lot of people are running ER rangers, but I'd still like to see you heal through VoR/Empathy/Backfire spam with RoF and Dismiss. --71.229.253.172 06:02, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * And you're complaining about a weak, removable version of power block being too overpowered, when nobody runs powerblock? If you don't want to bring rof, use veil instead.
 * Visions of Regret has nothing to do with wail of doom. You're assuming I think it's balanced.  I don't.  ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 06:46, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh. You should've mentioned it was a hex, I assumed (probably dumbly) that it was a straight effect. :<
 * I mentioned VoR because it's meta and if this idea went through, they'd be run hand-in-hand.
 * Also, hex stacks would still make this pretty murderous. --71.229.253.172 06:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * And whose fault is that? I didn't invent hex stacks, I didn't invent necromancers.  If you have a problem with hex stacks, make a suggestion for it.  The fact is that this change would make it weaker than it is currently, which absolutely needs to happen.  ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 17:11, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah I didn't really say it, but it would still be a hex, which is why it should last longer and cost less than pblock. I'll make it more clear.  ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 02:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * This change would make it stronger in the only area Wail of Doom currently sees regular play in unless a large section of GW was rebalanced at the same time. That's all I really have to say. --76.25.197.215 11:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * How so? How would making it weaker make it stronger?  ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 19:32, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Because you're not making it weaker, you're guaranteeing that any monk you face will either have to not use WoH at all or face twenty seconds of trying to keep his team up vs. empathy, VoR, backfire, faintheartedness, insidious parasite, and defile defenses with guardian and dismiss. :<
 * This could be a good change if Anet murdered hexstacking and such first, I don't know, but with arenas the way they are this just seems self-defeating. --71.229.253.172 19:43, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, sorry. I do this thing sometimes where I put myself into a mindset of "this skill would be balanced if it did this AND if everything else in the game worked."  It's kind of an annoying habit that I make assumptions that the game company will eventually get off its lazy ass and fix something.
 * Enough ranting, I've already solved that other problem ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 03:46, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Change to Elite Skill. 10 energy/0.25cast/12 recharge. Interrupt action. Action was skill, disables skill attribute 0...4 seconds. Knockdown moving foe. - jayce 64.253.24.95 09:12, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Shard's fix is not comparable to power block, it is way inferior. Even though it's 5 less energy and recharge, hexes can be removed, skill disable can't be removed except with Flourish and Oath Shot.

Just A Thought.
This skill is strong. No doubt. Lots say it's the same as a hammer warrior though.

But here is where I cannot just sit silently by. What's a hammer warrior do? KD and pressure. Yep. That's his job. Problem is when you put that into one skill, leaving the rest of the bar to completely condition removal, a new cheaper draw conditions, nonelite very effective transferring of those conditions, but wait not done yet, enemy anti melee. Tell me how a hammer warrior can pressure the enemy monks while shutting down your warriors and keeping his team clean all at once.

In 8 v 8 it's not really an issue, another monk removes it or picks up the slack for a few seconds. If they run two you preveil yourselves and think fast.

Problem is though. Hex removal is weak, and that's one hellafast and quick to recharge hex. Your veil is going to be dedicated to keeping yourself clean to do your job. Now this might be manageable in GvG or something but in TA in 4v4 all it's small support ability together shine like the sun. Making one monks job easier, the enemies harder, by simple wail, antimelee hexes after they blow their hex removal, draw conditions draw conditions, ok wod and hexes are recharged. Yea....that's not overpowered at all. So in a sense it's really only over the top in 4v4 where if you spam it enough there's no point in removing it because a few seconds later you'll have it again and the frontline will have their own hexes that need removing.

This might even go back to the bit where hex removal itself is kinda weak and failing. 12 second recharges when there's countless hexes in the game, several that can stop you from even removing hexes. How ironic eh?

I must admit though with WoD on you that you can still dismiss DW off and pray they kite enough for you to save them when its off so even if you are caught offguard you can still do SOMETHING. Even if it's not much.

Which is what gives people the idea to double up on monks, making matches take longer and defense layer if that doesn't work leaving us all int he situation we are in now and love to hate. 24.98.60.22 05:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Smiter's Boon
No trouble nerfing that, why has this taken so long? Does Izzy have any intention of fixing this? Anyone can see that this is way too overpowered. So... you know, I'd rather have this 25/90'd than have it continue on in its current state, as it is far more overpowered than Smiter's Boon has ever been, and it's really being abused in 4v4. -- <font color="Navy">Gah   23:55, 22 January 2009 (UTC)