Talk:Game updates/20080702

New Tonic
New Everlasting Tonic, anyone know?67.167.56.156 22:04, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Not added yet :(. Dominator Matrix  22:49, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Probably won't be added until the 5th. Or whenever they give out tournament reward points. Ezekial Riddle 01:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The new tonic has been released. Though did anyone else have problems with their predicitions not going in? even though they were placed before the deadline? :S Scars 20:03, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Bleh....
the day I started chaos planes farming it gets nerfed. I just have bad luck. Didnt like it as it was, but....those 8 ectos were niiice..... --  Wandering Traveler  22:05, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but maybe now those 8 ectos will go back to being of some actual value.--[[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png | Wyn's Talk page]] Wynthyst 22:06, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Valid point. but I was hoping to get Chaos Gloves with em' ^.^ --[[Image:User Wandering Traveler Oie User Wandering Traveler Sig2.png|19px]]  Wandering Traveler  22:07, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 55/SS? Calor  [[Image:User_Calor_Sig.png|19px|Talk]] 22:07, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol... the price of ectos just jumped 2k in the past five minutes. Everyone's laughing at the guys in Kamadan still trying to buy them for 3k ea. Ah well, it was fun while it lasted. Hey does anyone know for sure if sliver armour's damage is affected by this? Silavor [[Image:UserSilavorSigIcon.png]] 22:10, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Any damage dealt while under SF is now halved. --[[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png | Wyn's Talk page]] Wynthyst 22:10, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I wish they had of just halved the duration instead of the dmg. but oh well. -- Salome [[Image:User_salome_sig.png|19px]] 22:21, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * even damage done by hexes? --Cursed Angel [[Image:User Cursed Angel Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 22:23, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, aside from UW farming, this update destroys any build that used non-perma SF, while still keeping perma-SF builds active, just about 50%-66% slower. Most non-perma SF builds had the damage just right. Now they will only do 50%. If you have perma SF, you can still fire away until things die, but if you barley killed the enemy before... This should probably be changed :/ &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:User_Poki_Signature.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]] 22:31, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Crap, and just when I only needed 4 more Torment Gems to finish my 15 sets. Oh well. 600/smite is now gonna be alot more active I think, better get your fill of that before Anet nerfs it too. Amazed they still havn't done anything about 55/SS.

Also, did this update include the HoM change and Tournament Points? Not on my main system so I can't check for myself. --Masato 22:36, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Nope. Dominator Matrix  22:47, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Farewell Shadow Form...
* sniff* *sniff* It is gone, Shadow Form is gone forever, Im on a verge of crying, I am really sad... --Super  Igor  22:41, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Pwnt. Lyra' Valo' [[Image:User Lyra Valo Sig.jpg]] 22:47, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Im nearly crying atm tbh. :( --Super  Igor [[Image:User Super Igor sig2.jpg|19px|User:Super Igor]] 22:50, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Not really. Like I said above, Perma-SF builds are still visible (I can clear the whole raptor cave in just under 4 minutes still), but every non-perma-SF build just died. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:User_Poki_Signature.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]] 22:54, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yea, and Im so sad that chaos plains and speedclear uw runs died but ursan still lives, seems unfair. --Super  Igor [[Image:User Super Igor sig2.jpg|19px|User:Super Igor]] 22:57, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, to be fair it was a long time coming. Shadow Form is sort of like the BMW Z8, it was just born bad and it's always going to BE bad in some way or another. Possibly the worst thought-out skill ever made. EDIT: And yeah, I'm a bit skeeved that Perma SF gets nuked and Ursanway is unscathed.Krelus Derian 23:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, no matter what, ursan had to go first. --Super  Igor [[Image:User Super Igor sig2.jpg|19px|User:Super Igor]] 23:49, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Only problem is, ursan hasn't gone first. Ursan is still just as imba as always. Silavor [[Image:UserSilavorSigIcon.png]] 00:54, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * yea what the piss ursan is a lot bigger problem then sf its like do they even play this game when it comes to balancing? also when they get tormented weps in hom this will hurt the

econ way more then sf.75.165.110.13 04:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Buffed SF has been around for aprox. 4 weeks. This is about as long as SB stood before getting nerfed. Ursan is not going to be nerfed. People have been using it for too long now, so if ANet would have considered nerfing it, they would have done so by now. Boogy 05:03, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * How much of an effect does this have vs farming Tomb of the Primeval Kings? Laserblasto! 06:43, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * if they are going to change it to -50% damage, they should remove the "you lose all but xxhealth" portion, thats a double drawback, also why isnt the PvP version changed to also be -50% damage? someone explain why ANET hates PvE?
 * Because Shadow form isnt very usefull in PVP anyways whats the point of adding -50% damage to it? --[[Image:User Wild rituals signature.png|Talk]]<font color="#4E8975">Wild 09:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Tombs Farming is still possible, but takes ALOT longer to do. So if you wanta take three, maybe four times the time it used to take go ahead.

And making this change for pvp would have been stupid. It's already easy enough to take down Shadow Form players, interupt the skills they use to make it last forever and their done. I do it in AB(and in RA at rare times I see it there) at least once every day.--Masato 14:16, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Wish the new mobs were random spawn. That would get rid of SF in UW for good.Noi 04:09, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I really disagree with this nerf. I thought anet didn't care about pve lol. But still it could have been better nerfed by putting the duration back to what it originally was. This will affect many builds :/. Still wish ursan was removed from the game entirely :S 65.34.193.183 17:44, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Now that I think about it, of course the ecto might be restored to its former glory. But I will miss green farming :S 65.34.193.183 17:47, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

.....WOW.
Please tell me that this update is supposed to make up for a two week wait. I pray something happens tommorow.

GJ nerfing Shadow form BTW, but i think the reduction should be 33%, so people still use it in PvP. Well, not like they do, anyway.

if shadow form is ever viable in pvp, gg guild wars, still waiting for my ursan and wounding strike nerf. No 23:09, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * PvE only update ;o --<font color="Red">Super <font color="Blue"> Igor [[Image:User Super Igor sig2.jpg|19px|User:Super Igor]] 23:11, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Anet is the most epic troll ever, to create perma-sf then nerf it just when everybody is getting into it. 75.45.68.81 23:15, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * cough "Light of Deliverance" cough 68.93.32.232 23:17, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * But you can still have perma SF cant you? you just cant do any dmg wiht it. -- Salome [[Image:User_salome_sig.png|19px]] 23:17, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * it took anet at longer to nerf LoD than sf, plus LoD wasn't bad for the game, loads of guilds quit when anet offically screwed there backline. No 23:18, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * so yeah, pretty much the only good backline around is RC, WoH, loads of diversity in that. No 23:20, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Exactly fuck lod, exactly, Anet is a huge troll, they buff something then nrf it and laugh at everyone Q__Q'ing about the new nerf. --<font color="Red">Super <font color="Blue"> Igor  23:22, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * One time I saw this crazy 55-ish build for shadow form, so I was using my PvE character for the lulz and just went up to him, and hit off an unholy feast for like 79 damage or something lol. :P Vael Victus  [[Image:User_Vael_Victus_Sig.jpg|18px|Pancakes.]] 13:22, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Favor
Anyone knows what happend to the favor?? It was about 200 min till end today and after the update it's ~30,200 till end :o I hope AN will fix that... good that they've made the nerf... i was praying for that since 2 weeks :D THX AN


 * Just noted that. <font color="limegreen" size="2px">Dominator <font color="mediumblue" size="1px">Matrix  23:20, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I hope they ll fix it. its insane =[ [[Image:Elementalist-tango-icon-200.png|20px]] Ocravia Deathblade  23:40, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe because it rolled over 2-3 times and they want to add whats left? <font color="limegreen" size="2px">Dominator <font color="mediumblue" size="1px">Matrix  23:41, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * So why the heck they added this system? i dont even remember how does favor system works (ok ok, i know cuz i checked GWW :D) [[Image:Elementalist-tango-icon-200.png|20px]] Ocravia Deathblade  00:11, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * ArenaNet wanna see the effect of Shadow Form nerf, so, no favor, no farm, so ... they cannot see how economy changes! -- NeHoMaR [[Image:User_NeHoMaR_sig.jpg]] 03:39, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * what they need to do is just get rid of the favor system or remake it because right now it makes no sence.75.165.110.13 04:14, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * IF you read at the bottom of the update page, it says 30000 minutes were added to the favor. Probably done because they feel some sort of 'guilt' over SF ;p Altho, not very likely. But, damn, there are far better ways to have balanced out the SF abuse. They should have made it such that it is 50% less dmg from non-sin attacks. --Shaia 09:00, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The memories might be dulling with age here, but didn't the favour hit some 30K the last time we had a double Sunspear/Lightbringer reputation weekend and then reset at zero only to skyrocket back up again? If so then haven't se just been credited back what was lost? -- WarBlade 09:49, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Warblade is right. --Xeeron 15:52, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I was actually hoping for it to stay at 0 (Then we can work to put it up OR another SS/LB weekend)GaaaaaH 17:16, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It actually reset at 36,000 minutes of favor which is exactly 25 days.68.161.113.226 14:58, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Changing
Isnt it possible to just shorten it as if the buff never happened so us non perma SF builds can still be active and Perma SF's can die please just this one time (and have it stay that way) any one agree with me?24.118.145.249 23:19, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * me...actually no, they still had to kill UW HM speedrun... --<font color="Red">Super <font color="Blue"> Igor [[Image:User Super Igor sig2.jpg|19px|User:Super Igor]] 23:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

hey anet, why dont u just remove the 50% dmg redutions and then go back to a 21 sec sf, evythin gis sill farmable, and perma sins wont be everywhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!Shadowshock 16:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't it still possible to keep it up forever even when it was 21 seconds?(including 20% enchant mod)

Either way, Anet won't change it back. It HAD to be nerfed, simple as that. Just go make a monk for 55/SS or 600/Smite. More farmable areas with them than just UW.--Masato 20:51, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

i have a 600/smite monk, but i liked the old sf, no noobs running around like OMFG I CAN PERMA SF! Shadowshock 16:46, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

too bad the sliver armor build is pwnt
i agree the uw run needed a nerf, but sliver armor green farming was a relaxing past time :(, what will we do without our storage full of mindclouders now????srsly, they added sig of disenchantment, that should be enough, they didnt have to nerf sf....74.186.169.130 00:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Also true, what was exploiting sf and killing the economy was those pesky uw speedruns using innane conset-dependant bars, changing mobs and what is more, even nerfing constes would have been enough to stop that and thats all the nerfing economy ever needed. Please un-nerf sf but keep uw changes active plzzz anet. :'( --<font color="Red">Super <font color="Blue"> Igor [[Image:User Super Igor sig2.jpg|19px|User:Super Igor]] 00:25, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I still haven't logged out to get the updated shadowform, but is sliver seriously affected? The green market (whatever there was to begin with) just epicly died =( Silavor [[Image:UserSilavorSigIcon.png]] 00:38, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sliver now does 50% damage. Should have the nerf just to direct physical damage.  Or just direct damage period. --Srakin 00:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This game is really hard to balance. They balance something and unbalance another, OMG. I hope a better balance in GW2, they have a lot more experience now. -- NeHoMaR [[Image:User_NeHoMaR_sig.jpg]] 03:43, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

OHYEAH!
AoG still deals Physical damage instead of cold. Wow Anet, you blow/suck, however you like to do it. Uhm....Yeah...Conflag affected spears? Wish I knew, lol. and that actually makes sense, sheesh.

Wait, why Hex Breaker on Mindblades?
 * I'm guessing it has to do with the +  combo. Boogy 07:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, it's because if Mark of Rodgort + Lava Font. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:User_Poki_Signature.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]] 19:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Ether Nightmare + Cry of Pain is also affected by this. Especially since it was used in Hard Mode where lasts long enough to completely prevent an a/me or me/a from using it on Mindblade Spectres. Boogy [[image:User Boogy Sig.jpg]] (Talk/Contributions) 19:32, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

yeah it is really bad that they nerfed all SF build, even sliver form... now you can't farm bosses, or it is just much slower.... Plohek 09:28, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Tried on Woe Spreader just because my brain shut down and forgot what other bosses could be farmed. If you go perma SF it still is possible, but takes FOREVER.(and figures they do this right before the Dragon fest.) I havn't tried using the new method for Chaos Planes on bosses yet, but I would expect it'd work. --Masato 20:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Overview of it All
Psychiatric Consultant has pretty much summed up why this is a buff rather than a nerf to dedicated perma-sins, while the only real other use for shadow form (Sliver Armor Raptor Cave/green weapon farming) is left in the dust. So in short, unless you're an assassin secondary stop whining so much! Maybe, just maybe, Shadow Form will be re-thought in a way that makes UW farming less viable while allowing sliver armor to work again, but in the end I suppose that's just wishful thinking. Silavor 03:03, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

LAWWWWWWL
roffleberrynoobcakes, ive been using shadowform for ever, but ive been waiting for this nerf for sooo long its not right that it no longer required any skill whatsoever, then a bunch of noobs rip builds and act like they are the shit. lmao, but seriously it might have been better if they just reverted it back to lasting like 21 secs at 16 shadowarts. this pretty much screwed my dag build for fow hardmode, eh at least i have something to fall back on =p a-net finally has adressed one of 4 major problems. as for the newbs Q_Qing about the nerf, roffle gg!--Arrythmia 03:57, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

/agree but where is the part that SF would require skill Oo Lilondra 06:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

eh at least hitting the shadowform chain around 100 times perfectly in a row with a .6 sec room for error required some type of an attention span, but after it got buffed there was like a 16 sec room for error lol, and then a/e's started up--Arrythmia 19:19, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

"To lower the efficiency of Shadow Form farming without removing it as an option, we are changing both the skill and some creatures in the Underworld." I mean WTF? they actually killed SF not lowered it's efficiency. There's NO WAY to farm chaos planes now. this was the only easy way to get money fast, you can't get money so easy in GW and now they killed this. but not only UW, other farming builds are nerfed also. Plohek 08:00, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

well okay it's not totaly nerfed.. Plohek 09:25, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * could have just nerfed SF and left UW alone, it killed basicly all chaos plains tactics, seems that they are promoting ursans?
 * Well, didn't really kill "all" chaos plains tactics. I'm sure groups will manage. I suppose masturbatory farmers will suffer. Pretensciousboy 10:18, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

People are already looking for ways around it. Started doing it about two hours after the update actually.

Oh well to shadow form, if all else fails go 600/smite. Slower, but can basically do everything(Havn't checked quests or gotten to Spawning Pools. I always have to go do something around that time)--Masato 14:27, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

rofl @ sf
good job on nerfing the ecto inflation. now kick ursan and pve may be a bit of fun again. except the fact that A/E will still be the best tanks and HFFF will still make faction worthless. - <tt>Y0_ ich_halt </tt> 10:33, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Ursan/SF/55/130/600/SS/HFFF/FFF/Running the list goes on and on. Somethings can't be taken care of without messing things up more. Or destorying what works in a certin area, EG. Hard Mode/UW. Ursan won't be nerfed as it doesn't need to be -- its people choice to use ursan. As Regina said theres nothing stoping you from asking to form a balanced group. <font color="limegreen" size="2px">Dominator <font color="mediumblue" size="1px">Matrix  10:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * the problem is still that you won't get a balanced group, because good players who hate ursan are rare and the rest are those who don't know úrsan. - <tt>Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 11:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Let's create a guru thread, where ppl, who hate Ursan can gather balanced groups to clean som elite areas. Cos' u won't get balanced group in outpost. De1m0s 12:50, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Regina saya? Sorry for my French, but what she tells about Ursan is f%$@ing bulls%$#. Everyone found in some mission outpost look for Ursan group. U can stand for a week there to get full group of skilled ppl to beat smth with balanced build. Regina and rest of ANet just don't want to see it. De1m0s 12:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Dang, nerfing chaos plains WAS ENOUGH TO BRING ECONOMY BACK! Wtf killing nearly all sf farming builds u trollnet! D:< --<font color="Red">Super <font color="Blue"> Igor [[Image:User Super Igor sig2.jpg|19px|User:Super Igor]] 12:56, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * chaos planes is still sf-able. now even more profitably since ectos went up again. - <tt>Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 14:04, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * cough cough cough No 14:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I still fail to see whats so fun about having gear that other players cannot afford which you grinded endlessly for. Why keep whining and not just move on to the actual game that offers atleast a little challange ( PVP ) instead of just a virtual showoff.  SniperFox [[Image:User_SniperFox_IconSmall.gif]] 14:28, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * pve nubs like there obs armor, makes them think there good at gw No 14:34, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * i'm proud of my pro skillz and fierce gladiator. - <tt>Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 16:14, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Farm is pretty much unaffected
loltube vid. Avoid the new guys, build change, and of you go. :\ --BlueNovember 14:31, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I LOVE YOU. D: That probably better than daggers or AoE spam together.

so.......
i waited like 3 weeks and we only get one nerf to pve, pvp remains untouched, where's my wounding strike nerf? No 14:42, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * WS needs no nerf, no. lol.--The Noob Police 15:33, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah... you say that becase you've been playing derv since it was buffed. Anyone who monks once and a while will find it excessively energy consuming trying to remove it AND heal the damage at the same time, and anyone who fights it gets spiked so quickly they cant even get a good fight going.


 * Stop QQing and learn to play prot monk..... A simple guardian or SoA kills the damage a derv can put out meaning you have a much longer time to react.....

But hey, who cares? 50% of the community abuses OP skills anyway.

noob police spammable DW not OP ? then why the heck does everybody run 3 of them in gvg ? Lilondra 16:13, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * not mention its spammable DW on a scythe No 17:03, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Omg, WS over and over... Try to think before u yell to nerf it. Blocking, enchantment removal, blindness, kiting, Shield Bash, Restore Condition... So many ways to counter, it needs no single nerf at all. I use it myself and dont find it imba. Yes, it helps melee spike and spikes in general. SoA, Spirit Bond, anyone? Whining is not the way, think of how to couter it, this game is all about this. De1m0s 20:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

De1m0s, you win. I find it so funny that people whine about. Look, WS is ran by alot of guilds in the tournaments, but people carry counters for it. Be it in low end PvP or high end, If you know it's going to be used then carry a counter for it. In AB I ALWAYS carry Shield Bash for Sin chainers since all they do is MS+DB, disable their lead attack or any part of the chain and their useless until it recharges.

Half the people who whine about skills in pvp that don't need a nerf usually don't wanta take the time to actually read the skills and put together combos. Sometimes I really think that pvx was a bad idea, then I laugh because almost all the builds on there can be countered with simple skills.

Besides, there are more problems with PvP than Wounding Strike. Anyone who is active in GvG and/or HA can tell you that. I'm STILL waiting for a change to Hero Battles so their not A/W Backbreaker plus staller builds. I miss the days of /roll, losing it then walking all over the other player.--Masato 22:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * stop being idiots plz, spammable dw is always going to be bad, having to bring a counter for one skill is stupid as fuck. No 00:03, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * basically what your advocating is the continuation of the rock->paper->scissor format of guild wars No 00:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Nice try at a personal attack, to bad I really don't care what you think of me and I'm sure no one else here does. You have no proof to back up your claims on WS getting nerfed. And the way you QQ about it makes me believe you have no real GvG experence or never been with people who know how to counter it. There's a reason that most condition removal skills remove all or most conditions(eve if not all at once) Go research condition removal.

To quote De1m0s: "Blocking, enchantment removal, blindness, kiting, Shield Bash, Restore Condition..." If you or your team can't do any of those then you all fail at PvP in general. Deep Wound is just Restore Condition fodder and if you havn't seen, RC is kinda the meta for healing monks atm, with WoH being a second. I have honestly seen none of the top guilds complaining about WS, even those that don't run it. It's such as easy counter that it makes me lol whenever I see it being used on me. (Play a flag runner/interupt ranger, so Antidote Signet is always on my bar now since the buff.)

Go and actually TRY some counters and present some proof as to why WS needs a nerf before you comment here again. Perhaps give some reasons other than "OMG SPAMMABLE DEEP WOUND! NERF PLZ!" This game already has to many people QQ'ing and over half of them don't really know how to play high end pvp.--Masato 00:20, 4 July 2008 (UTC) - OK, Im not a Biased player, and I'm also not a QQer in most fields.

I played a monk, And i've fought wounding strike. Its practically impossible to keep up with the condition spam on Wounding if you aren't using RC. (I'm not talking about just GvG, I'm talking about in general) Mending touch is a great counter, but its a touch skill, and I wouldn't suggest running up and using it on people, you'll probably get wounded too! And anyone who brings it themselves would have to invest points into it to make the heal compensate for the damage taken while casting. that, and Mending touch recharges twice as slow as Wounding. Well, Blocking/Condition/Hexes always work, but in comparison to other classes, Sins need to hex you or enchant themselves to get anything going well, and the first/second hit of chains usually dont apply conditions. Warriors/Paragons need to build adrenaline, which also gives you time to use A counter-method. Ranger can miss thier attacks,be kited, or much easily blocked/hexed, due to attack flight time. A dervish can simply walk up and wound you for 50-90 damage (Dependant on AL) and literally spike you with that one hit, applying two condition that are practically pointless to remove. More that likely they will follow up with a 1s Activation hit, and one or two (if your slow) will get through before you can react properly, and then again, You have to worry about his teammates as well. By the time that 2.5 second spike is done, you could have backfire or WoD on you, and your screwed. Usually when the team realizes their spiking ability, they tend to pile on you very heavily. >_>

So, Summary- Anti-physical is hardly a solution, unless heavily emphasized. Its also too energy and time costly to simply remove the conditions while healing/covering your allies. Other classes have much more issues when applying conditions. -Warriors/Paragons need adrenaline to apply conditions. -Rangers only get good hits in when ignored, and flight time maxes it easy to counter them. -Assassins need to Precast or Forecast to inflict conditions. -A Dervish can throw two conditions on you at once, with little effort to boot.

I also played a derv, and I went 17 round w/ a WoD Curses Necro, A/D w/ wounding strike, and a ranger w/ interrupts. we lasted straight through RA, and killed off 7 TA teams simply by using Wound/ Mystic/Eremite's sweep in conjunction with WoD. The most ridiculously easy killing I ever encountered, and we dint even need monk support.

Yeah....Revert it to what it once was. Or make them lose an enchantment when used. Don't nerf it, because its a good concept, but Anet tends to over nerf builds/skills to death. Phill Gaston 01:06, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Em, u surely haven't read the description of WS, have u? It inflicts DW only if user is enchanted. Also, it does no additional damage, so it can only be used with an enchantment and only for support in spike. Considering high damaging criticals from scythe and great DPS increase of conjure, WS is very useful skill to bring for spike. But rip his enchats off, and he's gone. Bleeding, lol? Base scythe damage? WS user will waste time recasting enchants. He also could be shutdown by Empathy\SS\Insidious Parasite. Blurred Vision and blind, kiting and blocking - again, it's melee skill, use anti-melee against its users. And btw, ppl who stand still around derv waiting for AoE melee attack with covered DW definitely need to uninstall. And monks, who do not preveil in Arenas - tbh wont get far, just take WoD for example. De1m0s 05:28, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Not every monk build has Holy veil, fella. Some people dont like using Generic Skills. Pre-veiling WoD is almost pointless anyhow. Its more than likely almost finished before get the chance to unveil. The point im trying to make its that Wounding isn't manageable. Like I said before, Sins have requirements,warriors/paragons have adrenaline. Both give a monk time to manage their state, while Wounding can be spread faster than the monk can cast. I'm not saying they should be able to stop its effect, but the way it runs rampant as it is its almost pointless to try and remove it, because its impossible to manage it.

I'd understand if it had 5s. recharge. Or if it was reverted. or if you lost an enchantment after use. But it can be thrown around with reckless abandon on top of fairly heavy damage that out-paces every class in the game. another thing. I haven't seen a Sword warrior since the update. xD OH yeah! sorry about ranting, but one more thing. I have a combination that cam make a Derv hit 120* with Crits. I outpaced SS/Insid w/ Faithful/Watchful, and insid didn't heal him much due to him missing an arm. People forget that Derv's have a strong innate level of survivability. Phill Gaston 12:45, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

My TA team always pre-veils before a match begins, not just for WoD but for other annoyances coming from the necro and mesmer line, as well as those silly Argury of Death-Asp-Toxic Shock sins. Of course I always carry condition removal so their not really a problem. Still if your just standing around waiting to get hit, I think you might need to change games. And on your comment about Derv's surviving, I will agree to but Rangers are by far better. I see more Dervs die first in PvP than most other classes. Could be just the matches I watch though.

Go watch any tournament match and count the number of counters ran including Restore Condition. If you or your team can't run at least two of them then please just stay out of PvP until you can.--Masato 14:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Phill, if u say something is impossible - u don't even try to solve the problem. And if ur monk doesn't use Holy Veil and Preveiling - he will have hard times countering WoD, SS, Backfire, others... I do not say it is uneffective or lame - it just can provide monk a lot of work. Veil is effective in one way and uneffective in others... balance u c. And WS is surely balanced, in some aggressive manner i must admit, but it still can be countered. WS is in meta almost in all PvP, surely it is. So take counters for it in PvP, cos' u surely know u will encounter WS at some point. Balance ur team build considering current meta and u will win. De1m0s 15:17, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Phill is right but so are you guys. Phill is more aggravated at the fact that dervs can just go around merrily doing WS as they please - yes, yes as long as they have an enchantment on them, big woop and how hard is that ;p - and the monk has to waste time and energy removing said results and not 3 seconds later, the monk has to deal with it again. His point about WS requirements for the Warrior and Sin are also valid, the derv needs a better balanced requirement and perhaps a cost to using that WS all the time. That a derv can furthermore out damage a warrior is almost not fair, but hey that's life. You guys are correct because it is now the meta and the teams must so adjust their builds if they want to be successful. So sadly Phill, you're going to have to run what you may consider a lameass build to deal with WS as long as ANet leaves it as it is. --Shaia 08:28, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Enchantments may be easy to keep up forever, for dervs even easier. So we can say that one part of current meta is intensive use of enchants combined with WS. So let's throw in melee hex shutdown, massive enchantment removal and here we are. Or let's get tons of blocking and here we are again. But hey, we can get a blindbot and condition spreading ;) And there are much more other ways to have a counter. All I want to say is just that WS is balanced, in aggressive manner as I stated before, but as I see it it's just to move meta forward, out of some traditional methods of build balancing maybe. Staying in one point forever was never good, so let's continue progressing. It may be that some unused skills will come out and shine or frequently used ones will be combined in non-traditional ways. Just sit and think about your new build for TA/HA/GvG, how it can give hell to WS dervs. It's game after all, and we can have fun solving problems ANet gives us, which is fun. Or you disagree? =) De1m0s 14:16, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You raise a valid point, De1m0s, however, when para's were all the rage, you didn't see teams evolve anti-shout neccies, melee hex, etc to deal with it...but yes, for the time being, the players have to deal with WS in it's current form.--Shaia 18:54, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

De1m0s pretty much summed up what I was going to say. WS is part of the meta right now, and that meta won't change for some time or until someone finds a way to really break WS's balance. Then we could expect a change.--Masato 17:17, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

If you're gonna Nerf WS solely because its used alot in GVG, then nerf expertise because rangers rule in HA. if WS wasnt blockable then it would be overpowered, but so many spells and skills block physical attacks. Stop whining because you, as a warrior got beaten by a dervish and cant understand why. --Flionheart 01:46, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Btw, if Warrior needs to build adren for quite some time for Deep Wound and derv can spam DW - it's all about balance. Wars have highest AL, even more vs Physical damage, and they have ability to take shield, effectively raising their defensive capabilities. And derv, with only 70 AL, needa to rely on enchants, which could easily be stripped, to defend themselves. As Flionheart said, WS being unblockable would be overpowered. But it is not, so it is balanced now due to profession defensive abilities I put above. De1m0s 08:01, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Shame over A-Net
I don't know what was so bad about Shadowform before. Ectos were less expensive BUT much other things (Shards, Runes and so on) became more and more expensive. In my opinion the Underworld changes would be enough. Farming Raptors, Snowmen, ... takes much more time now or isn't possible anymore.
 * ...there are plenty of builds for farming raptors, snowmen, etc. that don't involve abusing shadowform. [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 15:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * ...Yes? For assassins?I wanna see them.
 * http://www.pvxwiki.com - <tt>Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 16:35, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * ... I only found builds with SF there. In fact this is the only way to farm in HM with an Assassin solo. Maybe you could farm without SF some Low-Level-Mobs, but this would bring much gold.
 * First result for "Great" rated Farming builds: http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:A/D_Death_Blossom_Farmer [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 16:47, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Great build. I've used myself on my sin. Insane DPS. And see that list of bosses? In HM, too. Probably more effective ad fun than perma-SF, too. Calor  [[Image:User_Calor_Sig.png|19px|Talk]] 16:49, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * ATTENTION IRONY: Great farming places!!!
 * QQ moar, you'll have to learn playing better because your one-click-go farm build doesn't work anymore. or even worse: you'll have to make another character! - <tt>Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 16:56, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think I know how to play and yes I like it easy. -.-
 * too bad for you, pve is already easy and your complaining that they made the game a little harder for farming. Most people would say to you for, lrn to play. No 17:05, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * There is one easy way to get money left: Ursan xD No. I started to grow up my Mesmer so I will get money with Cryway :)

Cryway ftw. I need to seriously go run that again with my alliance, most fun I've had in a long time. Many of the players in this game need to learn to play more than one build, and those who don't have no reason to whine and complain when that one build gets nerfed or changed. ToA yesterday about 30 minutes after the update was very funny, even more so today when people STILL don't know how to get around the change. --Masato 21:03, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Copypaste from PvXwiki kills brain... IMHO of course =) De1m0s 23:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

What makes me laugh even more now is that people are now complaining that the Charged Blackness's Shock can go through Shadow Form. Ummm, correct me if I'm wrong but since Shock is a skill and not a spell hasn't that always happened? XD. Please, someone buy these people some common sense. Actually don't, it gives me a good laugh.--Masato 00:27, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

2 mins to 8:00.
Lets see if they update. o_____o Phill Gaston 23:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * ya. O____o lol I liek this smoticon. --<font color="Red">Super <font color="Blue"> Igor [[Image:User Super Igor sig2.jpg|19px|User:Super Igor]] 23:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Nope. seems not. When do they usually update? ;___;Phill Gaston 00:18, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Thoughts about the ecto economy
After watching the ensuing debacle over new and inventive ways of farming the elusive ecto, there's really one truly simple way to solve the "economy" problem. The only big reason why the ecto has kept its value and popularity for so long is that it has been the basis of all 100K + purchases. If it were never used in any other way, then the whole basis of the debate of the ecto drop would be moot. Sure, maybe the "elite" nature of the armor you craft with it would loose it's punch in some respect, but it would in no way have such an impact on the buying power of the player which is the whole source of everyone's stress. After playing for so long, and pursuing so many titles, I have collected quite a lot of cash, and in some cases, had to buy ectos because I had no space to store more money. To be forced to buy something as variable as a crafting material to store cash (be it ectos/ black dyes/ etc) is, well I think, a bit unfair. I'm surprised that anet haven't devised some plan to help those of us who want to trade in the 100K + bracket options to pay with something not quite so volitile. Anyway, maybe it could be something that anet could look into as GW2 rolls along. Just a thot. ;)198.54.202.194 13:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * How do ectos work anyway? If 1 ecto is 100k why can you buy them from a crafting trader for 5k?-- The Forsaken One  14:08, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * in one trade, you can't transfer more than 100k, and in your storage there's a 250k cap. so ectos are used instead. they are/were quite worthy items that could be used as a second currency to circumvent this cap and keep safety. their value was 5k usually. - <tt>Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 14:20, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually the cap on money in the storage is one million not 250k. :\  ''Reaper  [[Image:User_Reaper_Sig.jpg|19px]] 17:01, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Remove the need for ecto as a source of additional trade money and I can say for sure that people would force prices of items up much higher than they are right now.--Masato 14:29, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Removing the ecto as a trade source wouldn't necessarily make things more expensive. If, for example, you could trade more than just 100k at a time as well, prices would remain the same, and maybe that was one point I neglected to clarify in my thots.196.25.255.194 08:05, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * actually, if that were the case, ectos would go down farther for a short time while people who stockpiled them for money would sell them to get their worth in normal cash, causing the supply to greatly increase. however, everything else would stay the same, so i agree with the idea. 24.129.73.0 15:58, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Disabled SF?
OK, I don't SF farm myself so I don't really care that much about this update, but SF (in particular perma-SF) is clearly a headache for ANet, so why don't they just make it more like the Dervish's Avatars and put a "this skill is disabled for X seconds" clause at the end? That was you could still use SF just like normal and even echo it but wouldn't be able to lower its recharge with Deadly Paradox and Glyph of Swiftness.

If it's disabled would those skills even allow faster recharge? There's really no dervish skills that I know of to allow for testing with the avatars(eternal aura doesn't count because it's auto-recharge). I'm honestly asking if it would even work.

Oh and sign your comments.--Masato 18:42, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, making it a form is not a bad idea, they just need to make the caster change appearance (the char will turn black and have a transparent effect) and give it the characteristics of a form. Elite Form. For 5...25...30 seconds, all hostile Spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss. This Skill is disabled for 60 seconds. or something along those lines. --<font color="#CC0000">M <font color="#330000">age [[image:user MageMontu sig.png| ]]<font color="#CC0000">M <font color="#330000">ontu 19:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * pretty good idea sir --<font color="Black">Cursed Angel [[Image:User Cursed Angel Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 19:13, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Are they gonna fix ANYTHING?
Its been 3 weeks since an actual skill update. When do they plan on changing anything?
 * Skill balance updates are actually on a fairly regular once-a-month or so schedule: The last was June 12, before that May 22, and before that April 17. Have some patience. [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 03:16, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, better hope they fix Wounding Strike as it was like Shadowform-PvE as WS-PvP--Underwood 22:46, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

WS is part of the current meta though. Anet won't change it unless someone finds a nasty combo that can cause it to become seriously broken.

I'm still waiting for them to re-buff EW.--Masato 17:11, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

EW? whats EW? Phill Gaston 22:13, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Energizing Wind Hope I linked that right, first time using it.--Masato 22:41, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

A thought...
What I don't get is this. With the right skillbar, Shadow Form is THE most potent defensive skill in the game. It makes you virtually indestructible. What this has done is make you choose between offense and defense. Guildwars is not about making yourself invincible and steamrolling everyone. It's about making tactical decisions and weighing tradeoffs versus benefits. For its almost unparalleled defensive capability, I'd say that a decrease in offensive power is a perfectly acceptable tradeoff. Now instead of being a no-brainer, it's a decision between this, a death blossom build, a 130 derv, 55/ss, 600/smite, or any of the other builds out there for farming. The problem with the previous Perma-SF sin was it was so much better and easier than everything else. This patch has fixed that: The new degen perma SF builds are far more active and require coordination, which is how it should be. Krelus Derian 05:21, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't you think that complete and total invulnerability should be paralleled with a complete lack of offensive power? (similar to the tradeoff given by Vow of Silence) &mdash;  Skakid  06:34, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, then SF should not only protect user from attacks and spells, but also from touch skills and signets maybe, but making impossible to use those yourself. And it could be made a form in a way dervish forms are. Just a thought =) De1m0s 21:07, 6 July 2008 (UTC)