ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Assassin/Shadow Stepping

Shard's Discussion
Actually, SS skills could have aftercast, instead of a blackout. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:85.103.171.124 (talk).

Agree with Izzy, this is rather clunky. Perhaps if shadow steps were slower? You cast the spell, and instead of appearing instantly, there's a "travel time", during which the symbols appear at both ends of transit? -- Armond Warblade 20:51, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey there's an idea, if the problem is melee classes attacking at range why not reduce the range to touch, adjacent, or nearby? -- Armond Warblade 00:04, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * this 'aftercast' and 'blackout' eliminates the sursprise and point of assasins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin) your not supposed to know when assasins are going to strike and half 2 seconds to throw uf a guardian and RoF, mebbe grab some tea, take a piis.. etc. 24.141.45.72 02:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * So you'd rather have them suddenly come in and kill you and leave before anyone can do anything about it? Cause that sure sounds overpowered to me. This is a game, not real life; both sides need to enjoy it. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 03:07, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thats why the guild wars god invented the mini-map.
 * What the fu*k... meta is two shock/rend axe... shock is w/E and rend is w/D, there simply are common enuf shodow warriors around.. Shadow-stepping is only imba in HB 24.141.45.72 00:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * 24.141, sign up for an account so we can start caring about your opinions. Right now, you're pretty much considered a pve noob who googled this page and wanted to post.
 * Also, when there are 8 blue dots or more on the minimap, all within your aggro it's hard to tell when a shadow step is about to happen.
 * Also, this isn't about "ZOMG sins r cool because you cant see them coming." GW is about skill (well, it's supposed to be).  All skill involved in defense is taken away when a deadly spike has zero giveaway.
 * Also, I moved your comment from the main page to the talk. The point of the main is to keep it clean.
 * Also, in response to your "wtf the gvg meta has no shadow stepping melees," I suggest you GvG more, or at least watch it. There are about as many W/A and D/A as there are W/E and W/D.
 * Don't use definitions for things to ruin game balance. If you wanted true assassis in the game, they'd have one hit kills. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 03:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Shard, your opinion that he's dumb because he's not signed up seems to be unique. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 03:59, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

There are about 6 offensive shadow steps, AoD, Sp, Dp, Augury, Deaths charge, and one more I forget. Aod: Enchant removal, which all gvg mesmers carry.

Sp: the 25r makes the skill just okay in a spike

Dp: the 30r forces you to carry a second hex or not use it at all

Augury: You need to make the target drop 50% of his health

Deaths charge:I used this skill on my assassin only about twice. I use this on my warrior's hammer bar. This skill leaves you with nothing during the spike or after, just a health boost by doing a leeroy jenkins

Skills should not be changed because of other professions using them. Prokiller88 03:54, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * iawtc-- Ninja Dragon  [[Image:User Ninja Dragon sig.png|20px]] 03:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, they should. Suppose a mesmer finds a way to instantly kill someone. Do you leave the skill alone? No. SP is by far the best choice of the above. DP is a close second, with Augury in a not-so-trailing third. Dropping a guy below 50% hp isn't that hard - it's called spiking.
 * What's IAWTC stand for? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 03:59, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * GvG mesmers have better things to worry about than AoD. All GvG mesmer's don't carry an unlimited amount of enchant removals.
 * Pro, one thing you don't understand is that this is a "Game Balance" discussion. In order for the game to be fair, everything must be nearly equal in power.  Now, explain to me again why physicals who can attack at aggro range and physicals who attack at melee range are equal, given that their damage is the same. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 05:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Especially in HB and plenty of other formats, shadow steps just don't help the game. To solve the problem, they shouldn't allow teleports over ramps or ledges, and to legislate that, all shadow steps should be limited to net travel distance of earshot range. Example: foe is on a ledge above you, and you have to otherwise run around and up. You hit the shadow step skill, and it brings you around a distance equal to earshot. This would be better than just stopping when you hit a wall, because then assassins would be stuck on pebbles, and the otherwise interesting mechanic would be ruined.--Skye Marin 05:36, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That would be pretty awesome, but I expect it would take a while to code... You ought to suggest it! -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 05:39, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Izzy, what's your opinion on letting shadow steps require line of sight? This is one of the things we've been asking for in Hero Battles and now you also have people asking for that same change in GvG as well. In other words let Shadow Steps work just like Shadow Meld does when you're way out of range from the original point you used it: you still teleport back but you stop at the first obstacle in your way. This would still make Shadow Steps viable but it would stop people from traveling beyond spell casting range like they do now (since you can only travel in a direct line). At the same time giving all shadow steps at least a 1 second cast time wouldn't seem unreasonable either. --Draikin 13:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And/or aftercast, to prevent instantly unleashing adren spikes (or derv attacks). If the monk saw them teleport, they might get a bit of reaction time.
 * Honestly though, it's the entire concept that sucks. "Positioning? Psh, I can teleport!" - Auron 14:10, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds good, a 0.75 second aftercast might actually be a better solution than giving them a 1 second cast time. I agree that shadow stepping dumbed down the game by making good positioning less important. At the very least shadow stepping needs to have a downside to it which it currently just doesn't have. Limiting shadow steps to line of sight would put a limitation on what you can do with the skills while an aftercast would at least give players some time to react. Additionally, skills like Recall/Shadow Meld need to have their maximum range reduced if they want to solve the problem in Hero Battles as well. --Draikin 14:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I vote for a 1.75 sec aftercast, like the PBAoE skills have. Would give a monk a chance to throw up a PS and Shielding hands, and then its a battle of whos better.  (unless the the sin is packing daze)--Ryudo 20:17, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Limiting the net traveling distance of shadow stepping like Skye Marin explained would in fact be better than simply limiting shadow stepping to line of sight but the question is if it's actually possible to implement that. --Draikin 23:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Should be. It's just a simple check for distance traveled, and something similar is used in things like Make Haste (which fails if the target is out of range). From there it's an if statement to check if the target's moved too far, and if so, move him to the appropriate xyz coordinates. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 03:56, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

People only use shadowsteps in eurospike technically :/ (other then sinsplit). It really doesn't add anything, except allow other melee classes to be lazy, and jump on OE targets, ect. Doesn't really need a nerf. -- Readem 23:41, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The idea for offensive shadow steps getting an aftercast is not good at all. That would make pretty much of all them nearly useless for anything besides killing NPCs. Generally speaking, assassin spikes are easy to stop with just one interrupt on any part of the chain.--Vaidin 09:41, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

IMO shadowsteps are powerful but okay, but it you really want to nerf them put 50% failure under 4 Crit Strikes so that assassin can still use them... --Usual 00:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I still think that Skye Marin's idea was the best in this balancing issue. Maybe you can post it under Shard's suggested solution, so it is easier for Izzy to see it? 212.114.239.107 01:44, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm " make them +100%, 200%, or even 300% faster movement speed buffs (as long as it doesn't just pseudo-teleport) ala Dash to enable telegraphing/reading enemy movement rather "haha I break the rules of movement and I'm in your base now" or "haha I bash your monk now ".

In other words, make the visual so that it is as though the character is moving really fast to the target, rather than appearing in a cloud of smoke.

This would be easy to do in terms of programming, as it involves only replacing the animation of the shadow step with that of Dash and then making the character not disappear during the shadow step.

If this is a problem, maybe make shadow steps simply 200-1000% speed buffs (opposite of 50-90% slower) for 1-3 seconds, bypassing speed buff cap. Keep in mind the range of shadowsteps is aggro range, hence the 1-2 seconds of 1000% speed.

Note: 0.10 normal speed is -90% speed so 10x speed is 1000% and technically 3 seconds at 150% (+50%) speed is spell range. Fundamentally you are shaving off 2.75seconds and the possibility of pre-kite and pre-prot compared to Dash." http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10250047&page=9 ...since the main complaint is not being able to tell who is targeted. Basically I agree with Armond's idea of symbols appearing in between transit. As clarification: "Mechanically, the shadowsteps would stay the same: you would still need to cast them in spell range and need a target. 1000% movement speed is basically what it is NOW when you disappear and reappear (you cannot kite shadowsteps). The thing is by making the animation movement instead of disappearing, it would allow for knowledge of who the assassin is targetting in the cast time and let snares do something (not much) besides look pretty in purple and down yellow arrow.

I never said to make shadowsteps stances if you reread my post. The reason why 1000% speed is necessary is so that when snared at -90%, the shadowstep would be movement at normal speed rather than making shadow steps worthless. I could have been less generous and said 200% (-50%) though but then the movement wouldn't fit in the 1/4 second span that it is now." --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 04:18, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Just some random thoughts, which may or may not work - these won't really change the fact that it eliminates the purpose of good positioning. Ok anyway
 * -Perhaps have a few of the Shadow steps skill function more like (For 2 seconds target foe is hexed, when the hex ends you shadowstep to that foe. This would do a couple of things I guess, it would give much more time to see who the spike target is, one issue with them now seems to be the rocket speed in which some of these dervs can spike (a 1/4cast shadow step with zero aftercast, and might give time for the monks to be able to cast more than only 1 quick prot or whatever they get off before the target actually die. It would also add the ability to deal with these spikes via fast hex removal so the shadowstep never happens.
 * -Increase the cast time of the Shadowsteps - ping wars I know >_>... Pretty sure every offensive shadowstepping skill I can think of is 1/4 cast which is pretty much predicatable unless the guy using it is moronic enough to use it after the aftercast of his Grenths Aura, Way of the Fox, whatever the hell they might use. Maybe this would kill it a bit too much (frankly I don't believe killing it "too much" is actually possible because imo it shouldn't even exist)
 * -Add an aftercast - a pretty hefty one, Frozen Burst length or something

Maybe all these ideas are terrible I don't know but offensive shadowstepping is a pretty serious issue right now Yesitsrob 14:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

The following has been moved from the front page:


 * Same as Shard but except sins shouldn't change their shadow step range but limit the other classes shadow step range-- Ninja Dragon  [[Image:User Ninja Dragon sig.png|20px]] 06:38, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Shadow stepping is a broken mechanic that should have never been introduced to the game. QQ more, assassin fanboy. --71.229.204.25 06:43, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Seriously, look at how the Korean guilds won in GWFC. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 07:53, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * A little thougt about another solution: What about changing the whole mechanic? I don´t know if it´s possible but what if you use a shadowstep and don´t jump to the selected target but to a spot in a straigt line infront of you. I think the range could be different between the skills. If there is Barrier, like a wall oder an enemy player you appear next to him. It would give positioning a far greater influence in battles and bodyblocks would find their way back into the game, even with shadowsteps. At last of what I´ve heard and experienced shadowsteps should just be a very fast way to run from one position to another in a straigt line. ~Ean
 * Maybe require a return to original location in x seconds (non removable and may have multiple instances) mechanic... this could balance a LOT of shadow steps, as such D/A runners would also be nerfed.68.102.139.94

If you want assas to keep the shadowstepping, can't you make it disable all skills exept daggers/critical for 2-3 secs, simply to destroy for example the derv spike with dual enchantment removal, it is ridiculas strong and needs epic monks to catch it, but still allowing assassins to have the shadowstepping as surprise manover. Fish 16:13, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

What a stupid idea. One of the coolest things about Guild Wars is the multi-class system. The ability to utilize skills from classes other than your primary to make your character perform a certain function better. Warriors and dervs should NOT be discouraged from shadowstepping because: 1)It makes them cooler.  2) Recharges are long anyway. 3) They sacrifice an extra KD or an enchant strip or some other utility by bringing a shadowstep.  222.127.223.69 00:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)Shinde
 * PvP isn't about being cool, it's about being balanced. Melee classes who can ignore their one and only disadvantage are not balanced.  Shadow stepping is flawed by default because it has zero counters, but it can be managed.  Izzy just needs to find an elegant way to do so. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 00:56, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "Melee classes who can ignore their one and only disadvantage" Their one and only disadvantage? Are we playing the same game?  You're just dumb.  Melees have a shitload of disadvantages.  A teleport is merely a viable option to tip the scales in their favor for a few seconds before their target is known, and certainly not an imbalanced insta-win button.  222.127.209.212 02:05, 1 March 2008 (UTC)Shinde


 * Would have to agree with 222.127 above, to an extent at least. Shadow stepping is its own counter, it simply has too long a recharge to be entirely effective. In most cases a warrior is far better off carrying an extra, fairly spammable kd over a shadowstep, simply because the disruption that this kd would cause is likely to result in more deaths/damage to the opposing team than a shadowstep would. The offensive SS skills have recharges typically in the 25-30 second region, meaning that a team who relies on them will have large delays between effective spikes, whereas a team who carries extra disruption/kd will usually be able to carry out effective spikes every 7 or 8 seconds. In addition, it isn't hard to prevent spikes by shadowstepping foes, though it does take a small amount of practice. RoF is your best friend, infuse also. Veil, PS, SB and others work also. As well as knowing how to react to a spike on yourself (amazing how many people don't). Usually you will have a second or so before any actual damage occurs after the shadowstep, which is plenty of time to get off a quick prot, and during which time the target becomes completely obvious. Not really a major problem. And for the record, shadowstepping dervishes and warriors are incredibly infrequent in GvG, especially at the higher levels of play, where shock axes reign supreme. And shard, don't go dismissing someone's opinion simply because they haven't registered on the wiki, doesn't make their view any less valid.
 * Why do you need to spike more then every 30th seconds?, its around how long it should be around spikes. Fish 13:44, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd have to agree with an earlier suggestion and say slow it down a bit, maybe leave a dark path from them to their target or something. But in all honesty being a surprise by no means assures your kill.  A big POOF gives off the hint to prot/infuse.  74.229.66.241 20:50, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I lol'd at "Shadow stepping is its own counter." What might that counter be?  All shadow stepping skills give you an advantage with no risk, thus automatically making them broken.  It's bad enough dervishes use it to instamurder anything they can see, but when gankers use it to become untouchable, it becomes a truly game-breaking mechanic, and it has to be dealt with. 72.235.48.41 16:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * No risk? Are you stupid? Unless it was AoD or the other one that returns you, there is a risk. And that dervish build is not instamurder, it needs others to help with the spike first. And also, if your just gonna argue ganking then something must be wrong with you.

Prokiller88 18:42, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Number 1. If your team of 7 can't beat a team of 5, well its useless just /resign and stop QQ
 * Number 2. If its the AoB Build, b-surge-warder and its useless.
 * Number 3. Stop being so anti-factions + nf, and start being anti-proph.
 * Number 4. Last but not least, BLOCK/BLIND is the melee breaking mechanic please learn to use it.
 * Wow nice list. You made 4 mistakes though.
 * Number 1: If they split, so do we, and it becomes a 5v5 at the center. Do a gvg before talking about them.
 * Number 2: AoB has nothing to do with shadow stepping. Get logic.
 * Number 3: I'm not anti-factions and anti-NF. The reason it seems like I hate nightfall is because most of the broken skills in the game is from nightfall.  It has nothing to do with the campaign itself.  Get logic and learn what Game Balance is.
 * Number 4: Blocking doesn't stop shadow stepping, and neither does blind. You're basically saying "Game mechanic A is fine because a seperate unrelated game mechanic B exists."  Get logic.
 * Please, before you post again, make sure you:
 * 1: Know what you're talking about.

2: Make sense 3: Lose the "learn2counter" mentality. It isn't possible to counter everything in the game with 60 skills. Hell, it isn't even possible to counter everything with every skill. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 08:06, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Shadowstepping is but a means to an end. It is useless, and probably fatal if the sin teleports and isnt able to kill anything. The learn2counter mentality is better than the i-cant-beat-it-fairly-so-cry-for-nerfs mentality.  It is bloody obvious the latter is more cowardly. 222.127.223.69 23:33, 4 March 2008 (UTC)Shinde
 * The problem isn't assassins using shadow steps, it's secondary class abuse, like this fucker with Death's Charge swapped in for Rez like is currently GvG meta. --71.229.204.25 23:37, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

1. If your target can't hit you, you won't get hit, shadow stepping has everything to do with blind and block because you use an attack chain after it. Prokiller88 13:28, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The only block that's going to do anything if multiple targets available is a reactive stance, otherwise you just pick a target that doesn't have some block enchant on them and teleport into their face. This is the problem with them, it severely damages the ability to effectively preprot or any sort of intelligent play on the defending side's part because everyone in earshot is a viable target any time it's recharged.  Blind?  Time some condition removal and get rid of it, or better yet, just spike when it's not active.  I'm pretty sure one b-surge isn't going to maintain blind on two teleporters constantly. Riotgear 20:29, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * There are multiple layers of defense. Bsurge diverted?  You have 2 monks.  1 is dead and the other kd'd?  Have the warrior lineback.  Or the rit throw a weapon of remedy.  Or the ranger dshot the dual then mend his ally's ass.  Multiple targets available?  Cry "OH GOD HELP ME PLEASE" on vent.  Timing condition removal to the spike isnt exactly brainless and isnt always available.  The spikers need near-perfect variables to succeed, while the defenders can do ANY of the above to survive.  222.127.203.78 23:26, 5 March 2008 (UTC)Shinde
 * You obviously haven't been obsing lately. Go now, before they nerf Dervshit, and find a team running two AoBs.  Watch them destroy higher-ranked teams with ease despite your multiple layers of defense.  Then come back here and theorycraft less and be not dumb more. --24.9.234.253 11:21, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I was merely theorycrafting the other guy's theorycraft. I shall check out this "Dervshit" you speak of, though I doubt it will change my stance. 222.127.213.9 11:59, 6 March 2008 (UTC)Shinde


 * Avatar of Balthazar is not particularly prone to linebacking. Most of those "layers of defense" get dropped when Pious Fury strips Grenth's Aura and consequently the first prot on the target.  Of course there are ways of dealing with it, the margin for error is extremely low though, much more so when you can't pre-kite or pre-prot targets when they teleport into their face. Riotgear 18:58, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Build got nerfed. So, stop asking to nerf shadowsteps. Prokiller88 23:24, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * What build got nerfed? Shadow stepping Dervishes?  I guess that's why people still run it huh?  Still a problem, still needs a fix. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 03:11, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * People still run it because of the speed, and in ha you need to spike fast. But we still have skill fizzles and the build was not as powerful as it was. You got what you asked for, sp and dp got nerfed for "being a snare and a shadow step" what do you have to complain about?Prokiller88 16:18, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Moved from front page:
 * Make distance of Shadow Step dipendent of Critical Strikes (eg. 1..3 adjacent, 4..8 area etc etc) --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:62.101.126.236 (talk).
 * How about revising the shadow step mechanic to be delayed one second and visually identifiable? That is, instead of a shadow step triggering instantly, it causes a visually-identifiable effect that lasts one second and causes the actual move when it ends.  It could also be modified to fail if the person shadow-stepping is snared or KDed, further eliminating the "positional immunity" aspect of it.   This would also provide an avenue for dealing with Shadow Meld+Return abuse.  As far as the "feel" of them, can we please get things to a balanced point first before worrying about concept?  Some things just look better on paper than they play out in reality. Riotgear 20:32, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * These skills have 20 second and up recharges, and while melee is not the only thing that they aid it seems to be the primary issue people have with shadow stepping. Given the disparity in spamming between anti-melee and shadow stepping I am failing to see the problem in terms of balance.  So once about every 25 seconds tops someone in the party or split has to worry about either interrupting, blinding or setting up a block or spirit bond or something.  The previous stops most/all of the pressure so healing is pretty easy manage.  It's a fair trade-off. Stepping so far beyond spell range should be addressed though, Maybe return steps could be reduced to spirit rangeThe Sins We Die By 02:09, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Moved from front page again...
 * Aggreed, maybe make it disable non-Assassin attack skills? Dark Morphon  (contribs)  16:43, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It's a problem with assassins as well. Albeit, the new Shadowstep+killcombos aren't as broken as SP, but they're still hard to catch and do tons of damage if not protted.
 * Please stop posting on the user page. It's only supposed to be there for the suggestion and for izzy's comments. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 06:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Hey shard
How about a health sacrifice attached to all offensive shadow steps? That would kill all powerful stepping at splits, and it also makes it difficult for assasins to step at the stand without getting over extended - may put more skill into the profession. -- NUKLEAR   IIV  20:16, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Another idea could be that they require some number in an attribute, though I'm fairly sure it has been mentioned. This could cause serious problems for other arenas though- AB, RA, TA, CM, etc. They could always add cracked armor to them, or perhaps blind after a certain duration?  Say, all shadowsteps blind the assassin for 4 seconds 10 seconds after shadowstepping?  Not sure what to do, but sacrificing on an already fragile class could be a serious problem in non-GvG non-HA pvp.  --Kalas Silvern 05:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Heal sac doesn't make any difference. The problem isn't primarily that you can use it at all.  The problem is that when you do use it, you're able to kill anything in sight (or teleport out of enemy range).  Shadow Stepping changes need to address THOSE problems, not add random drawbacks.  Avoiding "remove from the game" solutions, the best I've been able to come up with is to give shadow steppers weakness (or blackout), so they can't immediately spike (or heal, if aborting a gank).  Random drawbacks like health sac, energy loss, and random skill failure will not do anything. ~Shard (talk) 00:24, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Assassins abusing SSs won't care about weakness - and blackout completely kills it. oh, and blackout won't do jack at splits - my idea was mainly geared towards that. I think it'd be fine with a 33% sac at the stand - just lineback that fucker, and makes assasins real fragile at splits. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  20:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem is that blackout would completely destroy them- you'd never see them again. Sac of that much would also hurt too much, though would open up interesting synergy with Desperate Strike.  There should be a solution out there that still lets them fulfill their intended purpose- to make sins mobile- and prevent abuse.  I still like the idea of possible failure at less than 4 crit strikes or so- makes it so sins can still use them well, but prevents other classes from using them.  And please, keep in mind that the majority of people play modes other than GvG too- 33% health Sac annihilates shadowsteps in any disorganized arena, and I'm sick of seeing perfectly fair builds in those areas nerfed into uselessness.  --Kalas Silvern 22:07, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * "The problem is that blackout would completely destroy them"
 * How is that a problem? That's exactly what these suggestions are meant to do.  This mechanic should not exist.
 * I don't care about weakness on assassins...daggers suck anyway. Weakness would cut down scythe/axe spike damage by over 60%. Ganking would still be an issue. ~Shard (talk) 03:09, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Last I checked, the only real complaint is ganking, which can be done just well by other builds too. Take into account more than your precious elite pvp, I am sick of hearing "Oh, AB/RA don't matter"- Anet needs to wake up and realize that more people play these modes and pve than they do High level GvG, which is all you people whine about.  Have them buff the npcs if you're so worried about ganking, give them ench removal, powerful anti melee hexes, something, and go back to your mob at the flagstand.  Shadowsteps have viable uses in mobile combat- it's only when people want all combat centered at one area that they are OP.  So, buff the npcs with anti-melee (blind is good, since as far as I know, self condition removal isn't part of the gank builds).  Basically, find a fix for GvG, not one that ruins and entire skill type and severely hinders another class in every area of the game. --Kalas Silvern 08:37, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * We gotta buff daggers shard. There are too many assassin fanbois out there who want to use their precious weapon, and, frankly, I see no harm in making them viable as "spikes only, no pressure" weapons. But for that to happen, shadow steps need to be somehow fixed - Blackout hurts, I agree, but only at the stand. Splits are still a problem, and they will be a bigger problem when izzy decides to make daggers usable again. You know why I love the sac idea? It promotes skillful play. It makes 1 man or 2 man with no monks ganks impossibly slow. It also becomes a very risk or reward type of skill - you may get a kill, but if your opponent is smart, he'll collapse on you, and if you are in frenzy, most likely kill you. It does less for stand, I agree, but it promotes linebacking, which is, you'know, skillful play. And Kalas - we can't buff npc's cause there are legitimate ganks and there is this thing called VoD. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  09:13, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I'm just frustrated with the fact that things are only changed around GvG... as someone who really enjoys AB and the chaos involved, it drives me insane seeing mobility nerfed.  As long as it isn't an outrageous sac, I'd be ok with that- 33% would be insane, but something like 10-15% sounds decent to me.  And just curious, do the legitimate ganks rely on an enchant or hex that, if ended, will instantly end the gank?  I was thinking something along the lines of giving them exactly one ench removal and one hex removal/hex prevention.  I didn't mean buff damage or something like that, since I do understand that there are the "legitimate" ganks (sins aren't legitimate?) and VoD.  The idea was intended to make it so that you couldn't shadowstep to the npcs without getting teleported away, or having your combo ruined.  The idea would also combat enchant webs and hex stacks at VoD, would that be bad? --Kalas Silvern 23:01, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Legitimate ganks refer to gank builds that rely on skill rather than going 2-3-4-5. An example would be the cripshot. There are good cripshots, and bad ones. There are good SPers, and bad ones. The difference is that you can tell the difference in the former. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  11:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * So it doesn't rely on an enchant or hex. Why not give the npcs a /me secondary and have them maintain hex breaker/some kind of enchant removal?  Not sure how much of an effect that would have at the stand or at VoD, but it would hurt both enchant stacks (some of which help block webs) and hex stacks (an we know people don't like those).  I'd just like to see a solution that works for all areas, not just GvG. --Kalas Silvern 17:25, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * We don't buff npcs cause they become troublesome at VoD. And who knows, there might be a skillful gank that involves hexes or enchants. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  17:54, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * As I said, only "buff" would be the addition of a skill to remove hexes, and one to remove enchants. This way, you combat some hex stacking at the stand, and also slightly hurt block webs.  It stops sin ganks, and I've never heard of a non-sin gank that relies on a single hex or enchant in order to succeed.  I'm not asking for a damage buff for the npcs, I'm asking for a utility buff- a quick ench removal, and a quick hex removal, no damage.  That way, you ruin ganks by a solo sin, and at the same time they retain their usefulness in AB/RA/other "lower" pvp.  --Kalas Silvern 03:38, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, and extra utility on NPCS won't help on the stand now? meh, It's doable, but I much prefer to hurt shadow steps themselves. They are broken in HB too, true story. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  16:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

(resetting indent) Sorry, I should clarify- ench removal/hex blocking(or removal) wouldn't directly cause damage at the stand. It would indirectly make games faster by preventing crazy defenses, but that only happens at VoD where it's often quick anyway. Can't talk for HB, since I dislike the idea in general, and couldn't be unbiased. I just recently had the idea (based off yours) that a 20% health sac would be interesting though, since it would provide synergy with Desperate Strike (assuming it isn't changed) that could make L-O-D viable. Of course, a quick L-O-D combo every 20 seconds is mediocre, but would still be interesting. They need a change, but balancing them solely around GvG and HA is annoying for the majority of the population that doesn't play there. And I have yet to see someone complain about HB here aside from Line of Sight when ending them and range of ending- they don't care so much about stepping to people. I'd rather break blockwebs and hex stacks while breaking ganks than breaking shadowsteps entirely. Or make it so only sins can do it, and drastically reduce maintainability range on the ones that can step in and out. I still think a fast hex removal (or prevention) and a quick ench removal (to work against AoD and recall) would be the best solution to prevent ganks, since it really only hurts sins due to most other classes that go to gank npcs (rits, rangers from what I've seen) don't have any issues with hexes or enchs getting removed. Give me an example of a legitimate gank reliant on a SINGLE enchant or hex, and I'll concede that it wouldn't be a good solution. --Kalas Silvern 23:35, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

A thought I had was degenerating health for around 10 seconds after the SS was applied, maybe 4 pips or so. This puts a time pressure on the sin. That way, a spike can still be effective, but SS continuously would make for bad health in the end. The defensive ones could possibly have less (Return comes to mind). Any SS that is maintained (Aura of Displacement) has this degeneration while enchanted and heals for an amount when the enchantment is removed/dismissed. Just a thought, though I haven't played a sin in higher end PvP to know if it will work there. -- People of Antioch 03:05, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Nuclear, you're obsessed with balancing skills with sacrifice... (e.g. Rending Touch).
 * That may have something to do with sacrifice being great balancing tools. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  09:35, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Balance Skill. 1 100%  10.
 * ArenaNet attempts to balance a skill. If successful, Balance Skill only recharges with a Morale Boost. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:82.25.180.160 (talk).

Response to Izzy

 * My main concern with shadow stepping is when other classes do it. Shadow stepping warriors and dervishes dominate a big chunk of the metagame (in GvG anyway).  I like how assassins were concieved (they have some problems now but are still pretty cool), I just don't like how some sin skills allow melee classes to attack at range. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 23:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

izzy, id be fine with skill disable 2-3 seconds, but have target cant move for 1 sec, added in, prevents shadow stepping from being killed, but still allow monks to precatch spikes Annoying And Deadly 23:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Should this be moved to Addressed Issues, or does the second issue mean it stays? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:82.25.180.160 (talk).