User talk:Xeeron/suggestions/Nerf and Time limit to the EOTN:The Norn Fighting Tournament.

Less QQ more pew pew. Players have 2 professions for a reason. I'm sure you'll be able to find the right balance between your primary and secondary professions in order to defeat any foe in the tournament if you just try. Having a time limit wouldn't prevent so called 'gimmick' builds, but would probably encourage more of them. For instance, just using skills to keep yourself alive long enough for the time to run out. If you want to talk about skill, then you should analyze each of the foe's builds, then equip the skills necessary to defeat them in individual combat. From that, you just need to find the commonality 'build' that can then be used throughout the tournament. That is what the whole challenge is to the tournament.--209.194.208.116 22:24, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * This is a suggestion. Read it thoroughly:"Even if players rely on using gimmick builds to complete this tournament, they won't have to wait too much for them to win. ". There's no "challenge" in the tournament. Your build can work against most but not all opponents but it will never work against Bison. Read the proposition again.--ShadowFog 00:30, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Your suggestion sounds more like crying, because you say that only gimmick builds can be used to win the entire tournament. Exactly what is a gimmick build to you?  Technically, any build could be called a gimmick build.  So you're a warrior, that maybe needs to use some secondary profession skills that you've never used before just to beat all the foes. That is what the challenge is.  If you can't do it, then you lose the tournament. Simple.  So many other players have beaten the tournament with their own builds, so putting in a time limit just for those players who can't come up with a winning build is pointless.--209.194.208.116 21:52, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Refer to a dictionary for what it is a gimmick. So technically not every build is not gimmick and only a gimmick can kill the last opponent Bison.--ShadowFog 21:51, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Definition of 'gimmick' from merriam-websters dictionary: 1:   a mechanical device for secretly and dishonestly controlling gambling apparatus (Nope that doesn't apply here) 2: an ingenious or novel mechanical device (Nope still doesn't really apply to builds, other than the ingenious part) 3:  an important feature that is not immediately apparent (Nope.)  4: a trick or device used to attract business or attention (Nope, so called gimmick builds aren't really meant to attract business or attention) 5:  an ingenious and usually new scheme or angle (Yep, this is more like it.)  So a gimmick build in Guild Wars must be an ingenious or new scheme/angle for defeating your opponents! Ergo, any build could be considered a gimmick build so long as it works for the situation it was designed for. Minion Masters cannot be used in all situations either, therefore, it is an ingenious, not really new in this case; but new at one time, scheme for defeating your opponents. The point being, any build can be considered a gimmick for the situation you're using it for regardless of whether you can or do use it anywhere else. And in the case of the tournament, you as the player, must come up with an ingenious plan for defeating all of the opponents. Gimmick does not mean cheating, and only means you have to think about your build in order to win the tournament. So are you saying you'd rather not think and would prefer some 'cookie cutter' build that someone else thought up, or just be given the victory for "participating"? Maybe you should read the dictionary.--209.194.208.116 17:42, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Exactly my point. A lot of builds can defeat most opponents but since this is Build Wars, the rest of the opponents can not be defeated with your current profession/build thus a stalemate is at hand and even with the gimmick build stalemates can happen and you are stuck with an opponent for an infinite amount of time and must restart the whole thing and fight again the same number of opponents, restart again, rinse and repeat, that's a problem. Second is Bison, his DPS ranges from and past the 100s every 1.75 without any effort whatsoever, another problem.--ShadowFog 20:32, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh so you're upset because they put something in the game that makes you think outside the box, rather than use your everyday, hum drum build that you can use anywhere? So it's basically the thinking part that has you stumped.  Gotcha! I didn't figure you for a thinker anyway.--Cattivo 03:33, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * IP, read the Guild Wars Wiki description of Gimmick, not a dictionary. I'm sure that if you looked up Leet, lol or any other common gaming term, you wouldn't find it in merriam-websters dictionary, so stop being a jackass. And yes, only gimmicks can beat Bison (though the other guy is a lot easier, I wouldn't waste that much money running a balanced build and continually losing against Bison until luck intervenes and I face the other guy). If you run any balanced build against Bison, you lose. Why? He can kill a normal level 20 (600hp) in 7 seconds. Yes, I'm sure that your adrenaline spike which only deals like 1/10 of his max hp dmg can charge in 7 seconds. But the idea of just adding a time limit to win is stupid. That would just encourage survival gimmicks (Escape+Whirling Defenses+Lightning Reflexes for 100% uptime 75% blocking with throw dirt, crippler and 3 other heals ftw!). They should simply make the AI smarter and stop giving everyone builds more powerful than player builds. I mean, Mhenlo fails to cast Prot Spirit 50% of the time, the hamstorm guy casts his fire magic then cripples after you run out of the AoE dmg. The whole concept is retarded, because AI is so dumb and exploitable that to make it not an easy way to farm money, they need to give the final Boss extremely insane damage to pose as a "challenge", and thus encouraging gimmicks while not anything else. My advice:just stay away from this quest if you don't want to run gimmicks, A-net will never fix it properly, only try and remedy a quick-fix solution that isn't smart, fun or balanced (yes, just remove Cyclone Axe from the guild lord to make his dps go to hell, why don't you fix the real problem? Crimmastermind 20:57, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The English version of the word applies here as well, and in fact applies even better, which is what ShadowFrog suggested to look up. Any gamer's twisted meaning of the word is only based on ignorance of the real word.  Anet gave everyone the capability to attain the skills from other professions so that you could use them, and the Bison tournament is one of the places where you can step away from the 'normal' build practices by making you think more. But, you and ShadowFrog are probably those kinds of players that use the builds that someone else put some thinking into, rather than come up with one of your own ingenious and new scheme to win the tournament. So I ask, why reward players with a time limit, or "mercy" rule just because they can't think up a good build to win the challenge?  So here's an excerpt from Guild Wiki's definition of a gimmick build "Gimmick builds, unlike balanced, can be viewed as builds that does not fit within the metagame, or common views of a "balanced build". Gimmick builds use certain strategies to work, when certain condition are met, these builds can either be very effective, or not work at all."  Ok, I'll agree with that.  But, you have to also agree that the Bison tournament is a special event, that in itself also does not fit within the metagame, therefore, it only makes sense to come up with a specialized build specifically made for this specialized event. Wouldn't you agree?  Because after all, most aspects of the "balanced" parts of Guild Wars primarily rely on team work, either with real players, heroes or henchies, and the Bison tournament is purely a one on one challenge through which you progress up a ladder of foes to the final competitor, Bison.--Cattivo 03:33, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Um, I said the time limit was a stupid idea. Lrn2read. I have in fact come up with several strategies to beat Bison, but hey, I always enjoy being insulted by noobs . The fact that a "fighting tournament" needs to have a special build to win, which would utterly fail if you were "fighting" anything outside of the tournament is kinda retarded. Fighting Tournaments are meant to see who is the best fighter, not who has the most money to waste experimenting until they find a build to beat Bison. Note that the tournament costs gold, and I'm sure many first-timers enter thinking that it will just be plain fighting and bring a balanced build, and subsequently get wasted by foes who need gimmick builds to beat. The only nerf the Norn Fighting Tornament needs, is that Bison needs to be less 200+dmg per hit and more chains skills effectively and intelligently and wins by outsmarting players. The fact that gimmick builds are required to win reflects on bad game design. Also, while the gimmick page only refers to team gimmicks, I shall give you a small definition of single player gimmicks: a build which has no heal (or no defensive skills), a build which has only passive offense (such as a 55 monk with only retribution for damage), a build which relies on exploiting bad AI to win. Right now, Bison wreaks havoc on anything close to having a semblance of balance. I want A-net to fix this.Crimmastermind 04:08, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh boo hoo hoo, you called me some names. Like I really care what you say. Any comment I made about how stupid a time limit is was not specifically targetted at you, but just at the suggestion in general, so maybe you should learn to read.  The point of my reply to you is that the tournament is technically something that steps outside of the rest of the game because it was essentially designed to see how well a player can think up a single build that can beat all of the enemies in it, and therefore is not intended to be a balanced build.  Call it a 'gimmick' area requiring 'gimmick' builds if you have to, just to understand that. 99% of the rest of the game is all about team work, which the tournament is not about.  In addition, the tournament does cost money to complete, but it is also optional. You don't need to do it, so don't waste any gold on it.  Those that do, that's their problem.  And as for a 55 monk or any other gimmick build that is used to exploit the AI in the rest of the game, those are just ingenious ideas that players have come up with using the skills that were given to them in the first place.  That's just the mark of intelligent players outsmarting the AI, which hopefully is what most human players should be able to do.  The notion that Bison should be balanced is ridiculous, because he can already be beaten with the right strategy, as you yourself have done.  Let me add that those same builds, whether for Bison or 55 monks, or other gimmick builds used against the AI, wouldn't work very well against other players, and in terms of a balanced game, that's where Anet really intends for the balance to be. How boring would the tournament have been if you were able to kill Bison just like you would kill any other foe out in a normal area? He was made tough to challenge you.  Yeah he was made to hit you hard, and not really outsmart you.  So what?  As a human being, you should be able to outsmart him.  Brains over brawn! --209.194.208.116 18:29, 27 January 2009 (UTC)