ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Elementalist/Churning Earth

Nicky Silverstar's Discussion
the conditional effect works in Hard mode.--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 04:11, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Weakness would be better for Hard Mode since most of the time the damage you have to worry about is auto-attack damage from the monsters. Even the mages wand fast and hard. >.< Anything with AoE weakness is great. Also, this would be stronger for PvP as well believe it or not. I like Nicky's idea. --TimeToGetIntense 09:39, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * leave the knockdown and ADD the weakness 76.26.189.65 02:50, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * How would AOE weakness on 30 cooldown be good? If weakness was added then it should have like 20 cooldown and less damage. Keep in mind you have "You are all weaklings" in PVE and Enfeebling Blood is much better if you bring a necro. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 02:42, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It is good, because Earth Elementalists at the moment need to specialize in an additional attribute to get the effects of Stoning and Glowstone. Making Churning Earth cause unconditional weakness instead of the knockdown effect, and lower the casting time to 2, and it would be a very usable spell in PvE, and maybe even in PvP. (seeing as it can be used offensively and defensively, just like Eruption and Unsteady Ground). Nicky Silverstar 08:16, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Signed. I like the idea! How often do you get someone with speed buff in Churning Earth? Almost never! --Shadetz X 11:31, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I do think this skill is in dire need of some love. It'll make earth aoe eles more viable especially in pve high end areas. Renin 14:45, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Uhmm, what the hell is wrong with you guys...An AoE Over Time skill, that causes knockdown, that is great. The main point I want to emphasise is, weakness..is just a condition that reduces every attribute by 1, if you don't know that already, don't be aguing here..Weakness == 10 Damage reduction from spells, 3-5 damage reduction from attacks...OR Knockdown == Immediate Stop in any foe using a skill, or attacking, a pause from 1-4 seconds in the foe's actions. Do you prefer a literal pause in battle, while you can wail on that bastard and recover health in that limited time, or a damage reduction!? I think the obvious favored ideal here is Knock Down. If ANYTHING, Reduce the casting time, and add the weakness, or just leave the weakness out. The problem is, faster movement, is litterally, EVERYWHERE in Hard Mode. Now all you youngin's that play normal mode, you're thinking about the condition and it's hardly ever met, here's your solution: Go down to Consulate Docks, buy yourself a 1k Flame Head Piece, add a Superior Fire Rune, and swap to Fire. There's about 5 different AoE over time spells that will work just fine for you. Earth is more of a support magic that deals with slowing foes down, knocking them down, etc. Find variants in your build and substitute them with fire, don't go ruining other builds because you want some synergy with a build, why don't you find another skill that you can substitute to create Weakness for your precious Stoning. This game and building 'builds' are mostly about numbers, you gotta use your head, think about which skills work with what, and change it up a bit, till you find something that works virtually in every situation, or different builds for different scenarios. --Ʀєʟʟɑ 21:44, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

What about cracked armor instead of weakness? Lower the casting time to 2, and change the effect to: "Spell. Each second for 5 seconds, foes in the area of effect are struck for 10...34...40 earth damage and have Cracked Armor for 5...12...15 seconds. " But weakness would be fine, too... A. von Rin 02:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have to admit, it's mostly the activation time that bugs me (every other similar spell I can think of has 2 seconds) but the weakness was just a suggestion because I'd really like the Glowstone/Ebon Hawk/Stoning combo to be practical. To me, Earth could use an unconditional (ranged) weakness cause and I really don't mind if it's Churning Earth, Stone Sheath or Ebon Hawk that gets it. I just hope that it will be created somehow. Nicky Silverstar 07:21, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "You're All Weaklings!" Use substitutions, you can't possibly be using 3 PvE only skills by now, throw you're all weaklings in, and go. If you already have 3, can't possibly think why..(you should have Sunspear Rebirth Sig, Pain Inverter.. and I'm not sure what your other one would be. Whatever it is substitute it with You're All Weaklings) put Olias or Master with Enfeebling Blood, or any other necro in your party. SS is useful everywhere, just use that.--Ʀєʟʟɑ 21:49, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * "Uhmm, what the hell is wrong with you guys...An AoE Over Time skill, that causes knockdown, that is great." Except for the fact that monsters you target that are running faster than normal usually run out of the spell area before it strikes them, and the ones it doesn't strike won't get knocked down. As for weakness, it reduces melee damage by 67% AND reduces all atributes by 1, not just the second effect. I know about the skill "You're all Weaklings!", but that is not the point. The point is, that Earth could benefit from an improved version of this skill (the only DoT with 3 seconds casting time and an effect that hardly ever activates), so why not make it into an Eruption that causes weakness instead? It would certainly help the Earth Elementalist to actively defend, which is what Izzy seems to be going for.
 * If the monsters run out of the area in 1 second, you obviously don't know how to use this skill. You DO NOT simply spam this skill on moving foes, that never works with anything AoE damage over time. You are meant to use this as a way of snaring someone trying to chase a teammate. You cast this on a foe currently hammering an ally, that all flees after you cast the spell and the effect knocks over that foe. Sure, many other KDs are much more useful, but this is Area of Effect KD which can protect an ally very easily. It is in fact, a non-elite Unsteady Ground and serves the same purpose (which is to allow you/allies to kite from foes). This is more conditional, which you would expect from a non-elite version of a skill, and it only works in HM (kind of bad, but you don't really need earth magic support in NM). Also, about your idea about weakness, that is just bad. It is better to KD foes to allow no damage for a short amount of time and allow your team time to manipulate aggro, heal etc than to reduce the damage by 33% for one ally if that ally stays still and gets the stuffing beat out of him. If you want damage reduction, take Wards or Protection Spells, this is meant for KDs so you don't take damage.Crimmastermind 07:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That is all true except for the fact that everything is not true. Read up on what weakness does, and then read what I wrote, and then reply again. 145.94.74.23 13:29, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * lol, so the fact that weakness reduces damage done by 67% instead of 33% somehow renders all my information inaccurate? Just because that one point is invalid, it doesn't change the fact that KD is better than weakness. I admit that this skill does need a buff, but giving it weakness instead of KD is not a buff, and is not thematically correct (not that I care that much about thematically correct). Crimmastermind 02:50, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * also, try signing, that makes it easier to see which comment you added.Crimmastermind 02:54, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Just another comment, why do you want an AoE damage+weakness? This skill is damage over time, which means that it scatters foes. If you want to apply weakness, you usually don't want them to start rampaging into your healers by breaking their aggro using AoE spells. In fact, the only reason this would ever be brought would be as a last line of defense against a wipe in melee heavy areas if you are bringing an earth ele with a spare skill slot. Right now it fits that purpose, you only cast this if for some reason large melee mobs start hunting your casters(whether it be bad aggroing or whatever). You can cast this spell and the enemies are Knocked Down when your ally flees them and this allows your team to get ready. When half their monsters have been KDed for 2 seconds, that allows you to get ready, heal up/cast guardian without the chance of being KDed or interrupted by their melee. If you gave them weakness, that would be a pretty crappy idea. They can still interrupt your monks, they can still KD your monks, the only thing is that they can't kill your monk. Wow, so you shut down their melee at the price of not saving your monks, which means that their casters can rip your other party members to shreds because you have no healers. Wow.Crimmastermind 03:09, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You really don't play anything other than the standard tank&spank builds do you? First of all, with 3 seconds casting time, in Hard Mode, you can't ever garantuee you'll hit the entire group standing still. Whatever moves when the spell actually hits, will have ran out of the area by the time the knockdown actually hits, because of their speed boost. I've seen it happen dozens of times. Second, when NOT playing the tank&spank game (that hardly ever works in hard mode anyway), AoE weakness suddenly becomes a lot more useful because you'll reduce the damage of several physical damage dealers (not just melee) by at least 70%. That would make this skill a useful alternative when Eruption is recharging (wards work too, but npc's usually scatter). Thirdly, and finally, what would make it worth it is the fact that it can be combined with Glowstone and Stoning and costs 10 energy less than Eruption. 145.94.74.23 17:06, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, the synergy with Glowstone and Stoning is okay, except that you get what, 10 seconds for a 30 sec recharge. Wow, no idot would bring that. I know that this skill sucks, but your change doesn't improve it, no-one would still bring it. Oh, and I don't play tank either, nor am I a noob like you probably are. You can cast this in 3 seconds while your monk/caster/whatever is busy being KDed by a mob and thus when they get up, they run and thus the foes get KDed. Or, you could play like a noob and use AoE repeatedly on moving foes, which means that they never get hit. Your choice. Oh, and adjacent hits every 1 sec will actually hit any monster if they are not running while you finish casting, so unless you are constantly facing Dash (which is not that common in PvE), you should be able to hit them, if you actually play with teamwork (not, everyone just spams random skills on recharge).Crimmastermind 03:07, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Everytime you post, you overlook things. It's maximum isn't 10 seconds, it's 14 seconds. You *could* combine it with a caster spear to lengthen the weakness duration even further. Also, calling a double vanquisher/Legendary Guardian player a noob in PvE, well, that's just plain ignorance. I know how this skill works in theory. I also use it in practice and I see that it doesn't work that way. You, my good friend, don't even have an Elementalist and I seriously doubt you give this to your heroes, seeing as you state again and again that you don't like the skill. 145.94.74.23 08:02, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * wow, talking to a legendary vanquisher, I think you are a noob. Yes, so you get what, 14 seconds of weakness with 30 seconds recharge, that breaks aggro and does very little damage. Inferior to fire magic AoE damage, and inferior to necromancer weakness skills. Why would I bring that? No reason. This is pretty useless now, but your buff leaves it still pretty useless. Lrn2play b4 u start criticising ppl. Anyway, how the hell do you use it in practise when the skill doesn't even exist (it hasn't been changed). And the theory is still pretty feeble, because it is a hybrid mix of Enfeebling Blood and AoE damage at 3 second casting time. Thats pretty shitty considering it is in a little used attribute which has very little actual damage nor synergy with weakness (yes, 2 skills is a lot of synergy). Sure, you get a ranged KD with decent damage, but hey, its inferior to fire magic damage, and its a projectile so it can be dodged. And this is so you can KD 3 times every 30 seconds at the cost of 70 energy when glowstone only gives you 24 energy. Yes, that is very efficient, I would rather take a Hammer warrior for the KD any day, because that is pretty shitty. Lrn2 add the math, because 3xStoning=45 energy+Churning Earth=60 energy+Glowstonex2=65 energy, and Glowstone gives back 0.5x14=7(assuming you run 14 energy storage)+5=12 energy per cast, recharge of 7 means you can only cast it twice in 14 seconds, giving 24 energy. But you won't get 24 energy, because that would require the monster to stay in the AoE dmg for the full duration, which won't happen, because in HM they move out in like 1 hit, so you only gain 12 energy for 65 energy cost every 30 seconds, and gain an additional 40 energy from natural energy regen, which results in a net loss of 13 energy.Crimmastermind 19:36, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * oh, and I forgot to mention that your build also has no utility apart from Knock Down, and has just wasted 3 skill slots. Also, your attributes are 12 energy storage and 12 earth magic, so you are pretty screwed for elites. In fact, to make this build even playable, you would basically need double attunement, which makes the build energy efficient, but now you basically have very little purpose, you have 3 skill slots (2 if you take a rez), and can only use earth or energy storage, so basically you are an hybrid mix of a Hammer Warrior and a Fire Ele. Except you suck more than both, and your only advantage over them is ward against melee. Wow, nice build. Especially since you have a massive gap to get interrupted, and if you get one key skill interrupted, you can't do anything for 30 seconds. A hammer warrior can attack, dealing okay damage and recharge adrenaline pretty quickly. A SF nuker waits 2 seconds. If your 3 second casting weakness causing version of churning earth is interrupted, you have absolutely nothing for 30 seconds (stoning+glowstone=mediocre damage).Crimmastermind 22:39, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * last comment, look at Ward of Weakness, it is in every way superior to your proposed skill change (weakness duration, AoE, cast time, energy cost, recharge). And if you think that the drawback of having to deal elemental damage is bad, then you really suck, bcuz that+stoning=KD.Crimmastermind 05:47, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * You're wrong on soo many levels. Where to begin? Let's see:


 * '''"wow, talking to a legendary vanquisher, I think you are a noob. Lrn2play b4 u start criticising ppl. you really suck"
 * Legendary Guardian, not vanquisher. That's actually even a bit harder than vanquisher, because there are certain other objectives besides killing monsters. I'd be happy to show my titles to you ingame, if you'd like. My ingame name is Nicky Silverstar.
 * '''"Inferior to fire magic AoE damage, and inferior to necromancer weakness skills. Why would I bring that?"
 * The damage is not inferior, it's the same, just compare it to Searing Heat. Also, it's AoE weakness and you don't need an additional attribute for it.
 * '''"how the hell do you use it in practise when the skill doesn't even exist (it hasn't been changed)"
 * I was talking about how Churning Earth works now, not about my change.
 * '''"it is a hybrid mix of Enfeebling Blood and AoE damage at 3 second casting time"
 * 2 seconds, I already posted that suggestion.
 * '''"a little used attribute which has very little actual damage nor synergy with weakness (yes, 2 skills is a lot of synergy)"
 * Earth Magic can deal more damage than your PvE 'damage rangers'. Of course it can't deal as much damage as Fire can (duh) but it's far from weak (you'd know if you'd actually played an Elementalist). As for the synergy, 2 skills wouldn't be enough, if weakness didn't do anything. But it does, it reduces physical damage by 70%. Guess what? Fire Magic has only one skill for synergy with burning (Glowing Gaze).
 * '''"your build also has no utility apart from Knock Down, and has just wasted 3 skill slots"
 * Do you ever play hard mode? Do you know how much (base) damage a scythe wielding monster does? Any idea how useful it would be to make a group of them deal 70% less?
 * '''"so you are pretty screwed for elites. In fact, to make this build even playable, you would basically need double attunement"
 * Ok, why? You just calculated you'd lose 13 energy every 30 seconds. Why would you ever take dual attunement for that? Earth Attunement would give you back more than that just by itself. Yeah man, keep talking, you're sounding more like pro-Elementalist with every word you write.
 * '''"so basically you are an hybrid mix of a Hammer Warrior and a Fire Ele. Except you suck more than both"
 * Strategically placed knock-downs, my friend, are more valuable than spamming damage. This knock-down would be ranged, and couldn't be stopped by either blindness or block.
 * '''last comment about Ward of Weakness
 * Ward of Weakness isn't ranged, it has a fixed location. And it doesn't work the way you described it: it only applies weakness AFTER Stoning has hit the target. So you can't just throw a knock-down on something in the ward, you'll need to have attacked it first. I have already made several requests to Izzy to change it, but so far, it hasn't been changed yet. And again your experience as an Earth Elementalist comes shining through.

Bottom line: just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that people who actually use Earth Magic don't like this change. 145.94.74.23 09:24, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I would like to remind you to keep this discussion about the suggestion, not the person making it. Further violations of GWW:NPA will result in appropriate bans. Thanks! --[[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png | Wyn's Talk page]] Wyn 12:41, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, there are many flaws in your resoning. First of all, it says on the main article, 2 second casting time or blah blah blah. If you don't want people to get the wrong idea, right the idea right! Also, I'm sure that SF doesn't have any use for burning at all, I'm very sad to see that you could miss such an obvious fact. And as for more uses for burning, why don't you include damage, or even Steam (which I believe is better than Weakness for reducing damage received), which is pretty easy to spec into. And weakness reduces by 67%, tho I expect you rounded and added attribute bonus to damage etc. Yes, I do know how much damage a scythe does in PvP. I also know that if they are either dead or blinded/hexed that their damage can be limited. Also, how is your 14 seconds of weakness+6 seconds of KD=20 seconds of damage reduction every 30 seconds in an easily interrupted combo (1 skill interrupted=fail for 30 seconds) . I see you didn't address that point (any build that fails for half a minute if 1 skill fails isn't good. It may be decent, but it isn't good). Okay, so you don't take dual attunements. What elite do you take? No other energy storage elites are decent, and if you bring shockwave, that's pretty dumb, bcuz then you'd have to get into melee range, which would mean that Ward against weakness would be better (ward+shockwave=weakness, follow with stoning=KD). Or you could take Obsidian Flesh. Great, that's a tank/farmer skill, if you are tanking, it would be easier for imbagon or even a warrior. Stonesheath is useless. Unsteady Ground is okay, but that's about it. Nice choice of elites, when you have 1 viable option. Oh, almost forgot sandstorm. I don't have that skill, so I wouldn't know if that's good. Another thing, I'm sure that if you want strategic KDs, your change would suck. The weakness lasts for 14 seconds. So for that 16+2 sec casting time=18 second window where they don't have weakness, your KDs are useless. Or you could have a hammer warrior where their adrenaline charging is probably faster than you casting your entire chain. Oh, and you failed to see that casters with dazed=worse than warriors with blind. Sure, there's block, but everything has a counter, and you wouldn't bring a hammer warrior in an area with loads of block (unless you are a noob, not saying you are). Yes, and you also forgot that a 1 sec casting time+a projectile that can miss, be obstructed, and takes like 1 sec to hit is very strategic. I would prefer a hammer already at melee range for that sort of stuff, and you also forgot to mention that Hammer warriors can KD anyone, not just foes that have been hit by your 30 sec recharge spell, which only lasts 14 seconds (assuming you have wasted your inscriptions etc). Yes, and if you bring ward of weakness, I would assume that you would notify your team to bring some elemental damage. And if your team has no elemental damage, I would assume that thats a pretty fail of a team (what, 5 wars +1 ele + 2 monks?). Ward of Weakness lasts for 20 seconds, unlike your spell, which lasts for 5 seconds. Yours would hit for probably 1 time, unless you snared the foes to stay inside, but thats pretty much wasting even more skills for an extra 5 seconds of weakness. Ward of Weakness causes weakness several times. Ward of Weakness can be maintained (almost, but since the weakness duration is so long, weakness is maintained). Ward of Weakness has a shorter cast time than your proposed change. Ward of Weakness has a lower recharge. Ward of Weakness costs 5 less energy. Ward of Weakness may not be ranged, but it still outshines your skill change.


 * Bottom line, if you don't know what your talking about, don't say anything. Only like 3 of the points above were valid in a conclusive way, and one of them was simply because the article is very misleading. Also, try posting that sort of build on PvX wiki. It would get rejected instantly. No "great" build relies on 1 skill to activate and hopefully for at least one creature to get hit by it. As for your comment about HM monsters being able to dodge Churning Earth as it is, I think you fail to understand. Your skill would just as easily be dodged, so that point is pretty invalid. You also failed to address many of my best points (your change being inferior to enfeebling blood). One last thing, your unpredictable KDs are inferior to Gale. By far. Gale=1 sec cast. This is 2 sec cast+.75 aftercast+1 sec cast+.75 aftercast+waiting for projectile to hit. Gale is better for strategic KD than this change. It is also cheaper (10 energy+10 exhaustion=20, 15 energy+15 energy=30). And it doesn't matter if you are a Legendary Guardian, because it is achievable with good teammates and bad skill. Bad skill while vanquishing=wipe. Bad skill while doing missions means you fail the mish and can start again. Vanquishing=many areas have to be traversed before you can restart vanquishing an area.


 * Even further, I think that this is pretty much trolling from what I've read. You seem to just point out points which have minor errors, and with little thinking can obviously be figured out (srsly, who runs +40% weakness duration inscriptions). You point out insignificant little details that have nothing to do with the failings of the proposed skill design. Etc etc. I'm not going to flame you, I'm just going to say, grow up.Crimmastermind 07:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, then I'll try to reply to everything you say, to avoid missing your points. My apologies for that.
 * '''Builds with this skill would recieve a poor score on PvXwiki.
 * ''It is a well known fact that most metagamers avoid Earth Magic like the plague unless it is used for farming. Since I play Earth Magic in a different way than they do, my builds wouldn't stand a chance. That however, does not count as proof to me. Most of the people who vote there don't play Earth Magic either.
 * 2 second casting time or''' blah blah blah.
 * ''AND/OR
 * '''I'm sure that SF doesn't have any use for burning at all
 * ''It causes burning itself, that's not making use of burning. In my opinion, that's making sure it only deals damage after the first cast.
 * '''more uses for burning, why don't you include damage, or even Steam (which I believe is better than Weakness for reducing damage received)
 * ''Steam is not in Earth Magic, and burning being better that weakness, that's just a matter of opinion, so that is why I didn't include it.
 * '''Weakness reduces by 67%
 * ''No, it doesn't, because it lowers attributes by 1. If you lower a weapon attribute by 1, it will do (at the VERY LEAST) 4% less base damage.
 * '''(1 skill interrupted=fail for 30 seconds). I see you didn't address that point.
 * ''You can still deal damage with the rest of your build, just like an SF build can still deal damage with it's other skills (those few that aren't meant for Energy Management). This skill change wasn't meant for PvP though, it was primarily meant for PvE, since the current Churning Earth is primarily meant for PvE. You don't HAVE to use this skill in the weakness chain, but if you do, you can supplement it with skills like Ebon Hawk and Ward of Weakness to increase it's potential.
 * '''(any build that fails for half a minute if 1 skill fails isn't good. It may be decent, but it isn't good).
 * ''Decent is what I was aiming for, to avoid any overpowered combinations. In my opinion though, it would be good.
 * '''What elite do you take?
 * ''Glyph of Renewal to use it more often, Unsteady Ground for damage and/or defensive utility, Sandstorm for extra damage (can potentially deal more damage than Savannah Heat, did you know that?) yes, even Shockwave in combination with Ward of Weakness to weaken everything in the ward at the same time. In contrast to you, I actually know that the Elementalist skills do, and I actually use them.
 * '''Others can do this better than you can.
 * ''Extra knock-down never hurts, especially against hard mode monster groups with multiple healers and ressers. And it still deals damage, and Glowstone still gives energy. Against some group, 1 or 2 interrupters simply won't be enough and there you can help out.
 * '''casters with dazed=worse than warriors with blind
 * ''I know. I am a caster. I have no intention of continually interrupting casters, I am just saying that if the need arises, I can help with strategically placed knockdowns. I may only have a few seconds, but when the team is going for a spike, a few seconds are all we need.
 * '''I would assume that you would notify your team to bring some elemental damage.
 * ''I agree. I usually try. Most people forget in the heat of battle. That's why I'd like some more options to cause weakness.
 * '''Ward of Weakness causes weakness several times. Ward of Weakness can be maintained (almost, but since the weakness duration is so long, weakness is maintained). Ward of Weakness has a shorter cast time than your proposed change. Ward of Weakness has a lower recharge. Ward of Weakness costs 5 less energy. Ward of Weakness may not be ranged, but it still outshines your skill change.
 * ''Being able to more reliably choose a target to cause the weakness on, even if he's outside the ward, can be very useful. I am not trying to replace Ward of Weakness here though, I am trying to increase Earth Magic's weakness arsenal. Both have its advantages and disadvantages.
 * '''As for your comment about HM monsters being able to dodge Churning Earth as it is, I think you fail to understand. Your skill would just as easily be dodged, so that point is pretty invalid.
 * ''No, that was not my point. My point was that you spend 3 seconds casting a spell that only has an effect on fast moving foes, and when you finally cast the spell, the very foes that you're supposed to affect simply outrun the spell. I am NOT saying you never snare them, but it happens more often than you'd think. This makes this the skill act like a dazed-causing skill that can only be used on people who wield hammers. It makes you feel very pointless.
 * '''You also failed to address many of my best points (your change being inferior to enfeebling blood).
 * ''Enfeebling Blood doesn't deal AoE damage. Earth's strongest point is that its skills can be used both offensively and defensively. In effect, you can choose to either deal a lot of damage to casters, or to weaken a group of physical damage dealers. That is what Eruption does, that is what Ebon Hawk does, that is what Unsteady Ground does, and that is what this change would do. That is Earth's power, not snaring monsters that cannot be snared.
 * '''One last thing, your unpredictable KDs are inferior to Gale.
 * ''Gale on the other hand, doesn't deal damage.
 * '''It doesn't matter if you are a Legendary Guardian, because it is achievable with good teammates and bad skill.
 * ''I completed just about everything with heroes & henchmen, no Ursan Blessing and few consumables (maybe 1 small morale boost per area). Vanquishing areas is just defeating monsters, which is pretty easy. However, in missions, you have stuff like defending NPC's that die before you reach them. That makes them a (little) bit harder. But I did vanquish about 100 areas as well.
 * '''I think that this is pretty much trolling from what I've read.
 * ''The same can be said from you. You never use Earth Magic, you only know metagame builds. So, in all honesty, how much do you REALLY know about Earth Elementalists?
 * '''(srsly, who runs +40% weakness duration inscriptions)
 * ''If you're going for a full time weakness build, then why not take a spear with a +33% weakness duration mod? You have little use for the spear head anyway.
 * '''I'm not going to flame you, I'm just going to say, grow up.
 * ''Thank you. I have decided that I am not going to listen to someone who has no idea how to play an Elementalist. This is my final response to you, you can either try to learn something from it, or simply sink back into the metagame way of thinking like so many others. Please abide by your own words, "If you don't know what your talking about, don't say anything". 145.94.74.23 10:04, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Several things problematic with your discussion. If you bring ward against weakness, bringing this your skill change would be quite stupid (its just like bringing SF and Immolate, they both achieve the same purpose), so Shockwave isn't really a viable elite. Also, stoning sucks for its energy cost if target foe isn't weakened. Its just like having SF have the same recharge as its burning duration. Stoning does very mediocre damage for its very expensive 15 energy cost, and its only merit is it is a ranged KD that doesn't cause exhaustion. An SF build has other powerful damage dealing spells, which don't require one condition (eg Liquid Flame, Fireball etc don't need weakness to be powerful). The fact that you have 2 skills in your arsenal that require weakness means that you need a effective way of applying weakness. Would you bring Steam if you couldn't apply burning? (maybe if your teammates have SF, but if your teammates are concentrated on applying weakness, they won't bring this skill and generally that makes your skill change useless). Another example is using 12 fire magic and spamming Glowing Gaze without any burning. It is just plain stupid. If you can't see that, then I won't continue wasting my time explaining that. If you do not have weakness, you have a build with mediocre damage and no energy management (yes, earth attunement will help when you are spamming 15 energy spell for less than flare damage). Note that flare cast 3 times is 15 energy and 195 fire damage while stoning cast once is 105 earth damage and 15 energy (and has a worse recharge). Thus, stoning sucks balls if you don't have weakness. Also, I do know what earth magic skills are, and I have to point out, NPA. As I said before, Ward of Weakness+this=waste of skills. Okay, so I overlooked Glyph of Renewal, thats actually a very good point.
 * Extra knock-down never hurts, especially against hard mode monster groups with multiple healers and ressers. And it still deals damage, and Glowstone still gives energy. Against some group, 1 or 2 interrupters simply won't be enough and there you can help out. Okay, know you are being pretty contradictory. On one line you say it can still deal damage while foes aren't damage, and the next you say that the merits of that skill are the fact that it gives stoning+glowstone its conditional effect. Please, stop being contradictory. I know that KDs are very good, I never said they were bad/ineffective or whatever. What I said was that your skill change sucked. If you want to get stoning's secondary effect, Ward of Weakness+Shockwave=insanely better than your skill change. Enfeebling Blood is way better than your skill change. Your skill change is pretty useless, because it fails to maintain weakness, and its greatest merit is that (lower damage than fire magic if you want AoE damage, less reliable than Shockwave+Ward of Weakness if you want AoE weakness). Also, if this is PvE as you are saying about, it is pretty shit hard for this skill to achieve the effect you always go on about about "strategic knock down". How strategic is a 2 sec casting spell that takes another second to take effect, has a chance of that foe running out of the radius before it can do anything, and breaks aggro? As I said, Gale is better for strategic KD than your combo, and it doesn't break aggro. Note that when aggro is broken, foes move around, and Stoning can miss moving foes. Note also that if you wait for aggro to settle back down, your weakness duration is nearly over (14 seconds is a pretty short window for a strategic KD). If you want stoning for a strategic KD, Enfeebling Blood+Stoning is way better than this (even at 0 curses).
 * I agree. I usually try. Most people forget in the heat of battle. That's why I'd like some more options to cause weakness. How the hell do you forget to deal elemental damage in the heat of battle? WTF is that? If you do not have any in your party that doesn't deal elemental damage from their spells, your team is very imbalanced. Any ele/rit deals elemental damage. So if you bring Ward of Weakness, then you should easily be able to cause AoE weakness every 2-3 seconds. Your skill change has a 5 second window with which to cause weakness, and only causes it for 14 seconds (assuming like above you have wasted your inscriptions, never a wise thing to do).
 * About your thing about the weakness spear, why not just take any other weakness causing skill? They are all so much better than this one, thats what I'm trying to say. Weakness is good, but it isn't that great when combined with the fact that the damage is pretty mediocre (less than stone daggers spam) at such a high cost (15 energy is pretty high for such a combined effect). I would prefer if this skill got buffed into a spell that simply caused a direct effect when you cast it, because that way it is very much more reliable as a Weakness source, and it didn't break aggro. Same damage as your suggestion, same weakness duration but bring energy cost to 10 and cast time to 1 second.Crimmastermind 04:26, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * '''If you bring ward against weakness, bringing this your skill change would be quite stupid (its just like bringing SF and Immolate, they both achieve the same purpose)
 * ''And earlier, you said that relying on 1 skill is stupid too. Make up your mind please.
 * '''How the hell do you forget to deal elemental damage in the heat of battle?
 * ''I often ask the casters to bring an elemental damage weapon and attack whomever is attacking them inside the ward, to reduce the overall damage they're getting. Guess how often they actually do so.
 * '''why not just take any other weakness causing skill? They are all so much better than this one, thats what I'm trying to say.
 * ''Ok, then I'll try to summarize my points:
 * ''I don't like the way Churning Earth is now.
 * ''I tried to suggest a change that wouldn't likely lead to overpowered combinations.
 * ''I'd like Earth Magic to have a reliable, long range weakness causing skill. I don't want to have to use secondary attributes or PvE skills. This is a personal opinion, but fact is that most attributes don't have to double spec for their combo's. Ebon Hawk and Ward of Weakness are less practical than they may seem.
 * ''My change makes the spell the same as Eruption (a well balanced, maybe slightly overpowered spell), except that it replaces blindness by weakness. To counteract the fact that weakness is obviously inferior to blindness, I suggested keeping the energy the same (as in: 10 energy less than Eruption). Combined with the fact that you *could* combine it with Glowstone for energy management, and with Stoning for knock-down, that should be enough to even things out.
 * Now, consider the fact that, my change is equal to Searing Heat without the burning at the final second (that doesn't get applied very often) but WITH a condition that is caused every second it deals damage. I'd say we have a pretty well balanced spell there. The fact that you don't like weakness, or think nukes should only be used to deal as much damage as possible, doesn't change the fact that my suggestion would actually turn it into a very powerful skill compared to other, similar skills.
 * You could throw in on a group surrounding a monk, throw a stone after it and you get a decent spike with knock-down. You could also throw it on some incoming melee group and then use Glowstone to get some of your energy back (so you'd only have to bring Earth Attunement or Glyph of Lesser Energy, instead of both). What you get here is pretty much Earth Magic in a nutshell: spells that can be used both defensively and offensively. That is why I made this suggestion. Now, we can debate over this for quite some time, since we obviously don't agree on the power level of my suggestion, but it is unlikely we will see eye to eye on this, so let's just stop, and call it a draw. Let Izzy decide wheter or not he'll use my suggestion, if he ever wants to change Churning Earth at all. 145.94.74.23 08:01, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Woah, wall of text...
 * Anyway, I agree with most of your points (certainly that other guy is not making a lot of sense... I mean "it would get a low score on PvX wiki"... come on). That said, I would like to point out a couple of things. Firstly, you said Weakness decreases damage by 70% because it's the normal 66% by 4% less for the -1 attribute point. Actually, as far as I know, these percentages are multiplicative so the total damage decrease (assuming +1 to an attribute gives +4% damage - note that if this is the case -1 to an attribute will actually give slightly less than 4%) would come to about 67.3%. OK, 67% and 70% aren't really that far off anyway, but I just thought you should know (also if you apply the wrong maths to bigger percentages (i.e. rather than 4%), your answer will be wrong by a significant amount rather than a small one).
 * Also, while I agree that Earth Magic needs some more Weakness-causing skills and that this is pretty clunky to use given the 3 cast time, this is still pretty useful as it is since it offers a fairly unique use and is useful both in PvE Hard Mode (due to increased monster run speeds) and in PvP areas such as HA (since most frontliners take a speed buff and many teams will put "Make Haste!" on their monks - in fact, this is very effective for MHed monks since they have to either stay in the AoE, taking damage equivilent to Searing Heat, minus the burning, or kite and get KDed). Personally, I really like this skill, aparty from the horrible cast time which kind of kills it. Dropping down to 2 would probably be enough (in fact it would possibly even be too good, but since it's in an unfavoured line it should be OK). One thing you could do, though, is add something like a "when Churning Earth ends, all adjacent foes suffer from Weakness for seconds." It wouldn't be useable as a primary source of weakness, but it would make it slightly more powerful.
 * You are right about the percentage, I just wanted to be a wise guy about it. In practice, the difference between 66% and ~70% (since the damage difference between attribute levels varies) will be a few points of damage, but nothing major. As for your second comment: I don't really mind if the effect stays the way it is, or if it gets changed (both effects have their uses) but giving it 2 effects might be a bit too much. Not only would that make the skill a lot more powerful than Searing Heat, but it would also almost gurantuee that the snared foes get weakened too unless their speed boost ran out midway. That's just my opinion though, and I'll admit never considered that Churning Earth might actually have uses in PvP. 145.94.74.23 08:37, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Just going to add that the additional -~4% damage only works for martial professions (Ranger, Paragon, Warrior, Assassin & Dervish). It doesn't affect caster attacks, because they have no attribute that affects how much damage their weapons deal.Crimmastermind 05:55, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I suppose I deserve being wiseguyed back. However, wand damage isn't a problem usually (though I have to admit, it can be useful to reduce it in Hard Mode). 145.94.74.23 09:26, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

FunnyUsername's Issue
Agreed. It's a simple but hopefully effective buff.
 * And don't forget the fact that it's unlikely to create any overpowered gimmicks, both in PvE and PvP. 87.210.150.58 15:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)