ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Assassin/Horns of the Ox

24.141.45.72's Discussion
...To what? Specifics are good. -- Armond Warblade 02:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * to the skill... izzy can decide the damage.. this is just no viable anymore 24.141.45.72 02:32, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Then I'll just throw out and see where we go from there... -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 02:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * or mebbe like trampling 24.141.45.72 02:39, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yea, the 5..17..20 would be nice. Prokiller88 03:03, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Logic here is that Assassin combos should only have two of: Damage, Utility, or Disruption. Increasing damage to the two knockdown dual-attacks breaks that logic. You shouldn't be able to kill in a single combo. If you're having trouble making a kill, get a teammate to add a hundred points or so more damage. He's already knock-locked, so it should be easy. --Skye Marin 05:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Last I checked disruption fell under utility... -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 05:55, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Utility, by my definition, include Shadow-steps, and hexes / conditions. Knock-downs are in a whole class by themselves as snare, disruption, and blackout. Either way, being able to knock-lock and make kills by your lonesome was never the real intent for this game.--Skye Marin 06:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. Who the hell are you to say what the "real intent" for this game is? To be able to solo-kill a guy whilst he is on his ass the entire time is perfectly alright if one builds his bar to do just that, using the skills available. 222.127.223.69 01:25, 27 February 2008 (UTC)Shinde

Why must you guys hate sins?!?!?!?
Seriously though you are trying to nerf all the decent sin skills....... -- Ninja Dragon   06:32, 20 February 2008 (UTC) Opps misread-- Ninja Dragon
 * ...We're discussing buffing this? But beyond that, we hate sins because they're designed around solo play and solo kills in a team game. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 06:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * True. Its a team game and I'm fed up with sins saying they'd beat you in a 1v1 when there is no place in this game for 1v1 Ajax Baby Eater 01:09, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Misread it 0.o-- Ninja Dragon  [[Image:User Ninja Dragon sig.png|20px]] 06:41, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And not really Armond I mean there's alot of sins skills that are good for team play and not just solo and same with sin builds-- Ninja Dragon  [[Image:User Ninja Dragon sig.png|20px]] 06:43, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I really do think that sins are a class that should never have been introduced. All the classes make us think "omfg wtf broken" sometimes, like when we get shock axe spiked by a war, or a blind bot rapes our war, but all of those are easily countered by the right class. Shock axes get raped by anyone using a blocking stance, or a decent ele, and blind bots are giant targets for other eles and mesmers. Sins however are designed through and through to "poof in, rape someone in 5 seconds, and poof away", as demonstrated by their elites like shadow prison and shadow form. I dont think any elite has ever caused as much grief for the GW community as perma-shadow forming has in the past. (even now its still possible with a mere handful of counters) And shadow stepping is something that really shouldnt exist without a severe penalty (like the exhaustion cost on Ride the Lightning).  With the massive nerfs that have come through sins have become less godly, but shadow stepping and shadow form still cause way too many "wtf!?" moments for my liking.--Ryudo 07:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * All that means is the community needs to find other ways to counter and that's all.-- Ninja Dragon  [[Image:User Ninja Dragon sig.png|20px]] 07:22, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Not too much you can do about a sin poofing in from nowhere and laying down around 500-600dmg (often unblockable) in a matter of seconds.--Ryudo 07:24, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sins don't have 80 AL for a reason, and also I think perma-shadowform is ftl -- Ninja Dragon  [[Image:User Ninja Dragon sig.png|20px]] 07:25, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And Also It's called protective spirit, it can make alot of the damage just not happen-- Ninja Dragon  [[Image:User Ninja Dragon sig.png|20px]] 07:25, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thats the thing, anytime a sin even thinks hes about to get hit, normally he can just SS an entire radar range away and heal.--Ryudo 07:27, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Your exaggerating, you can't SS a whole radar away and you can't get off that much damage and be able to heal because, you would need like 9 skill slots to fit a heal in and your stats would be lower too to put some skill points into shadow arts for the heals.-- Ninja Dragon    07:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * From Shadow Step "Shadow stepping does not have a distance limitation unless you would shadow step over impassible terrain, in which case the shadow step is restricted to the radius of the radar. "

And sins CAN create 1-2-3-4-5 kill bars, ive seen it before, esp if the target is already slightly wounded.--Ryudo 08:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ninja, forget your assassin fetish for a bit and think about how absolutely broken an unstoppable, untouchable instant kill machine is. The reason why assassins don't have 80 AL is because they're never there to need it, and good luck laying down a preprot before the spike (usually with accompanying KD) renders you unable to cast and therefore dead. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 10:54, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't assume all assassins bring an ias + a shadow step on their bar. Prokiller88 23:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * He didn't include the bad assassins. -- Readem 23:32, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You need to use at least 2 attack skills for the knockdown. The assassin's attack speed is 1.33 and doubling that is 2.66 so you have 2 seconds to block the assassin or run like hell. Prokiller88 05:09, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd believe that, if it weren't for the fact that sins are moving towards using Shock or Iron Palm. So, essentially, you have half a second. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 09:27, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm talking about real assassins who only use assassin skills to attack, its 3/4 cast for both just to tell you. Prokiller88 22:43, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm being generous and assuming they only need a quarter second to realize what's going on. As for "real assassins", real assassins use KDs to get their kills, however they have to. Your definition of "real assassins" seems to be "assassins that gimp themselves into not getting kills but looking cool while they're at it". -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 23:21, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You can preprot against an assassin spike then because prot spirit only takes 1/4 to cast same for spirit bond, oh and even RoF. Even if you use a touch kd it takes 3/4 to cast. Prokiller88 00:59, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you understand how few people have that good reactions? There's few enough people in the game that realize they're being shocked before they're knocked down. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 05:44, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you realize you pushed in shock into a discussion about buffing this skill? But aside from that, even if they get knocked down the 2 attacks following that are one of the falling attacks, and a dual attack. That was in every single assassin build before nf, 2 attack skills or gps into horns into falling into twisting and that was not overpowered because back then no one used ias's on assassins. If its about spamming this skill then look, it takes 2/1 attack skills before this hits, and once it hits they use moebius, and after about 3 of them they stop, because they are out of energy. Prokiller88 18:36, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Horns of the Ox and Trampling Ox should both be reverted to their original damage. 222.127.223.69 00:24, 27 February 2008 (UTC)Shinde

No. HoTo needs a slight buff, but only if shadowsteps can no longer ignore obstacles. Trampling was just gay. -- Readem 09:18, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "Trampling was just gay." Wow. Your impeccable command of the english language astounds me.  Not. stfu 222.127.198.144 12:56, 27 February 2008 (UTC)Shinde.
 * You want them reverted, lol, like keeping someone on knockdown-lockdown isnt overpowered in itself...Streetp 19:08, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Trampling is bad. On-recharge knockdown? Yeah, balanced, sure. HotO was overnerfed, to be sure, and I might be missing something but I still don't see why. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 08:46, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * HoTo doesn't really need a damage buff, maby it could be on par damage wise as trampling ox but any more is pushing it, since it would make this skil, obviously used for knockdown(like shock or iron palm) into a kill skill(huge damage with a great secondary effect with no conseqeunce) it already allows you to do a 5 skill chain(the lead,offhand,this,"falling" offhand,dual-attack) that should be enough.(Marsc 23:19, 29 February 2008 (UTC))

Biases
I don't get why people feel the need to bring their blatant assassin biases into so many of these discussions. They aren't helping at all.

The exaggerations of the power of spike assassins is getting ridiculous at this point. There has never been an assassin build that is "untouchable", "unstoppable", or "instant kill" and there likely never will be (especially given all the nerfs to the class). The same is true for solo kills. The most common spike generally does about 400 damage plus deep wound over the course of 4 seconds. So any decent player with roughly 600 life will survive any solo spike.

The spike assassin is one of the most easily stopped builds in the game and playing as a ranger, there is no type of build I have an easier time destroying. Even a bad monk should have no trouble casting Spirit Bond or Protective Spirit once they see an assassin shadow step to them. I know I can do it and I'm horrible at monking.--Vaidin 00:24, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You say that, but somehow the old SP 'sin was successful at even the highest levels of play. /shrug --71.229.204.25 00:35, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You might wanna check your math, cause I know I've done over 650 damage in a single spike as an assassin (and not by a fluke). Also, rangers have the most brainless assassin counter in the game, so don't feel good because you as a ranger can't be killed by assassins. :/ -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 08:46, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * As explained below, I'm talking about the most common type of spike. Also, your example of Natural Stride is odd.  Unlike most of the easy ways to evade general assassin spikes, Natural Stride gets ended by hexes, which just so happens to be a common component in assassin builds.  There are a lot more brainless ways to avoid the spike, but really the most obvious one to use just so happens to be on most rangers' bars.--Vaidin 13:32, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Most good Rangers would wait until after the hex hits to use Natural Stride. 76.89.81.150 05:08, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

"I don't get why people feel the need to bring their blatant assassin biases into so many of these discussions. They aren't helping at all.

The exaggerations of the power of spike assassins is getting ridiculous at this point. There has never been an assassin build that is "untouchable", "unstoppable", or "instant kill" and there likely never will be (especially given all the nerfs to the class). The same is true for solo kills. The most common spike generally does about 400 damage plus deep wound over the course of 4 seconds. So any decent player with roughly 600 life will survive any solo spike."

QUOTED FOR TRUTH.

Armond: he said the "most common spike". Today, after all the nerfs, it's nowhere near 650... unless maybe you have 3 superiors, uber-buffed, and are hitting something with an armor penalty.222.127.223.69 23:31, 28 February 2008 (UTC)Shinde
 * The old spike might have done that. +28, +18 twice,+28 again, and +60 twice with crits is freaking deadly. Prokiller88 01:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * That was the original SP with BLS, TF, BSS, BoS? 28+36+28+120=212, 17 max damage to the square root of 2 multiplied across 6 hits=144 (this assumes that all are critical hits and not just a mere two crits that the rough 33% chance to crit implies meaning 116 damage), +100 deepwound. It creates a total of 456 damage max (428 mean) not counting the 14 hp/second to degeneration afterwards.  Not sure if the deepwound was covered by bleeding but it was covered by poison.  Technically it would instagib only dummies and npc's but it also meant that players had to maintain a higher level of tactical awareness against it due to SP, BOA and Expose Defenses.  EDIT:  Just remembered daggers are  9-17 so the actual damage should be lower than the max damage I calculated.Celeborn 21:23, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * ohhhh some1 send me a spike build than can deal 400dmg in the average skill set Shadowshock 02:21, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Easy: Any bar with shattering assault. Any bar with BoS. Any bar with Twisting fangs. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  15:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow, are you serious? Nowadays, if a sin can't do at least 600 damage in a single spike, he's not used. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 17:01, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

omg 600 dmg spike, is that even possible without sp and skill from differnt profession? Shadowshock


 * Um, wow, you get a free secondary profession, why do you not want to use it? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 15:03, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Cause real assassins kill with 7 attack skills and shadow refuge, amirite? -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  15:09, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

lol yes, my condition spike is six, and yes it hits an amazing 490 dmg, more if i want to use my whole skill bar (by more i mean 139 more) and i dont want to use it, one reason, is that the secondary professions make kills easy Shadowshock


 * ...Do I have to respond to that? Seriously? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 20:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * perhaps, im kinda rushed for time in the mornings, and dont check what i write, what i mean, is that i have figured out how to spike for around 610 dmg but it requires my entire skill bar, and secondary professions like elementalist, and necro, that alow much more compressed bars that can deal much larger amounts of dmg Shadowshock 16:34, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Does our bar involve jagged strike, shadowshock? -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  13:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * If you're doing less than 50 damage a skill on average, you're fucking doing it wrong. If you don't want to use a secondary profession specifically because it makes you better, you're fucking doing it wrong. If you don't like the secondary profession aspect, leave GW, because it's that important to the game. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 17:43, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

omfg, and im not, ur the one that needs to quit, its just a game, calm down Shadowshock 22:10, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Where did I indicate that I wasn't calm? :/ You've done nothing to refute our points and have instead simply suggested that we go away and leave you alone. Well, half of your username is right... -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 02:11, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol? --Lann 14:10, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

A Simple fix to Horns of the Ox
I see a lot of the suggestions for HoTo however, i have a problem with one of the proposed functions of the skill. Changing HoTo to only strike a moving foe imo isn't a very good functionality change. Once a sin hits w/ their lead attack you want a fast combo to follow afterwards. Skills such as Leaping Mantis Sting or Crippling dagger work well because their lead attacks which "lead" up to the combo. I honestly think just a small buff to the skill in terms of damage is the only change really needed it for it. HoTo is a good skill to have while running YAA if your into a quick a spike. HoTo is fine the way it is imo because Sin's were meant to take down splits and solo targets.