User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Balance/Archive 1

Either get better at the game, or hire iQ. Game Balance sucks and you are failing at your job. A great deal of people are leaving Guild Wars for WoW PvP. That is fucking the saddest statement in the history of online gaming. Readem 23:40, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * A sad but very true statement. The skill balance that are being put forward seem to be less and less thought out each time, or just knee jerk nerf to whatever people are complaing the loudest about at the time. Ajax Baby Eater 00:26, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Dear Izzy, please ignore the people saying you suck and all (like Readem above). They don't know what they're talking about. I for one am grateful for what you're trying to do, even though I may not always agree with every decision. Anet doesn't HAVE to doe anything, and I know it is harder than it looks. So I just wanted to let you know that there are people who think you're doing an ok job. GW2 must be taking a lot of your time, so it must be hard to find the time to balance these skills and I think it is a little unfair of people to start bashing you that much. I just wanted to say this. Nicky Silverstar 01:55, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * While, I agree that the bashing is probably a little harsh. The "Anet doesn't HAVE to do anything" part is irrelevant. It is his job, and he does get paid to do it. What would you say if the bagger at the supermarket stood there and refused to do it? You wouldn't be happy with him, but the store "doesn't HAVE to doe anything". --Deathwing 02:23, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Dear Izzy,
 * Please ignore the above person. While they may think you are doing an okay job, okay is not enough, if A.Net has any intention of keeping any PvP playerbase. Already, WoW and Fury and Pirates of the Burning Sea have drawn significant portions of what portions of the PvP community hadn't already left due to A.Net's various failures at fixing the PvP game, or due to A.Net's constant efforts to ruin gametypes(HA: 6v6, then AB minus the tactics and the gankfest that is all of the maps with more than two teams, also their failure to fix things like ritspike and spiritway for so long), or due to the horrible work of the CR people(seriously, if you're job is to talk to the community, saying you're going to stop talking to the community because a few people pointed out that you're not good at PvP/the game in general is bad(hi, Gaile)). --Edru viransu 02:19, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not going to sit here and say that Izzy and Anet are not doing anything, or not trying to make the game better, but I simply have to admit that they are failing and missing the mark. Perhaps Anet feels they have some immunity since their fanbase is entirely sold already, and besides those who yet have account upgrades, they have nothing to lose atm.  But studiers know that this is a myth, and if Anet doesn't perform, they will lose out heavily in continued growth and player additions for GW1, and also lose a portion of their jaded fanbase, who will not even consider GW2 reguardless of value based on previous performance.


 * The number one marketing tool is word of mouth, referal, association. Even more so for an established game, the vast majority of people introduced to GW1 will continue to be through referal by friends and personal accolades.  If players are displeased with the game, no matter how trivial Anet views it (and you are treating it trivial), players will not only leave, which will degrade the environment in the game further, but they will spread a bad reputation for the game, reducing sales instead of increasing them.


 * Now I've read the statements, thoughts, and direction of the developers, and what they appreciate, and outside of a few technical gameplay biases, and a little insincerity, it is all good perspective. The problem is that they do not portray the dedication they claim, and they are not appreciating the value of the game as much as they should.  And I don't care what they have to say about it, it shows in their work, or primarily, lack of it.


 * 100, that's a number to shoot for, 100. The skill updates are getting a little broader and broader, so I have to say that we are getting a little more interest, but it is fractional to the amount we expect.  You can claim that a remote interest is portrayed here, but you cannot deny that a vast sum of skills are disfunctional, completely ineffective and uncompetative, and some are simply unusable.  There just isn't enough change, it isn't fast enough, not enough work is being done on enough skills to make a serious dent in the amount of skill flaws.  100, fix 100 skills every month, or 25 a week, really, start working hard, HARD!!!  And that doesn't mean switch the same skill over and over again until you finally change everything else around to put it back where it was to begin with....  if you would stop doing patch work on symptoms and do the hard work to rectify the disease, it would inevitably lead to less work in the long run, and better more enjoyable changes.  For the next 3 months, address 100 additional skills and bring them current with the gameplay.


 * And lastly, stop letting the meta and popularity to dictate what should be changed. Players will cut off their feet to stop the pain of walking instead of take the time to access the need for better surfaces to walk on, let alone support their renovation.  There are some very significant gameplay and function alterations that need reworking.  They need to be made in order to create a better challenge between suppressed skills that way they can function effectively, and succum to challenge instead of weakness.  This is an overriding problem with most of the skill that are "unbalanced", "need nerfs", and are problematic.  Effective skill opposition by other skills, and effects which offer a greater gameplay diversity and greater dynamics need to be stressed.  Serious function failures are holding back too many abilities which players want to enjoy, balance is a sub-priority of making the game more fun to play, and sabatoging fun under the authority of balance is not helpful.


 * When Anet gets serious about their game, and I mean serious enough to improve the game and satisfy their players, not serious enough to congratulate eachother for a "hard days work", than we will all benifit from a better game to play. Our suggestions arn't always right, and your actions arn't either, but the important thing is that more work is done that way we can reach a reasonable level of satisfaction in a relavent amount of time, not "in the future" or "when you have time", right now, seriously.--BahamutKaiser 02:55, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Dear Izzy, Please ignore these whiners and complainers (who only represent a tiny miniscule fraction of Guild Wars players approximately 0.01%) that have no idea what they are talking about and just want to insult you. Guild Wars is a great game because of your hard work balancing and improving the skills. Keep coming out with the excellent updates Izzy and ignore the silly haters. 70.132.2.120 05:31, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * What exactly was excellent about that last skill update? How many new viable builds were introduced? How many skills were buffed into playability? None? Now, how many skills were removed from playability or severely hampered? A few. How does this add ANYTHING to the game? The people who don't care are the people that are amused by the pretty colors, the ones that play through the game regardless if half their skill bar was nerfed into oblivion. They don't even pay attention really, just randomly click buttons. Now, even if that is the majority of players, and they do not care about updates, does it really matter? Just because they haven't realized the potential of that game doesn't mean that we should leave it as it. The people who want overhauls of certain skills, and want loads of skills buffed into playability understand the game, and want to improve the game. You should listen to the people who are trying to improve the game, minority or not. --Deathwing 05:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well you obviously missed the fact that several Mesmer, Elementalist, and Necro skills were improved and opened up new build possibilities. I'm guessing you play one of the other classes that haven't been affected much with this update. I'm sure Izzy will get to you eventually just wait your turn while the three main casting classes have fun. 70.132.2.120 07:38, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The buffs to these classes weren't significant enough to change much. The only interesting Mesmer buff was Signet of Illusions. Other than that, just adjusting a few numbers on skills. Nothing spectacular. Same case with the Necromancer. The changes were meh. The skills that needed buffed didn't get them. Some mediocre skills got a very slight buff, along with a slight nerf to AGaze, nothing amazing. Elementalist skills? Nope, just buffed multi-element builds, which there is hardly enough room on a bar to handle it. Nothing to get giddy about. Nothing against the changes, they are all fine and dandy. Nothing interesting though. Nothing that makes me want to make an Air/Earth hybrid. (edit)I think I overused "nothing".--Deathwing 07:49, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

'nuff said. Defiant Elements 05:50, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok so i'm going to try and keep this as hate free as possible, as i dont agree with all the hate that is being aimed at Izzy, however i must agree that this update was a failure. So many things didn't get changed when they really really really REALLY needed to! The 'balance' wasn't anywhere near balancing. One of the majore issues got dealt with (Paragons) But so many didnt! The fact that Spiritway was allowed to run for sooo long (and still does might i add) has made a joke of PvP probably on par with IWAY. People WILL and ARE leaving guild wars because of this update. I personally know 2 entire top 100 guilds that are disbanding, simply because they decided they would stop until the major issues got fixed, and now the update that took so long to come hasnt fixed most of them, they simply gave up on the game, and i can't say i blame them. Updates need to be more frequent, they need to be more direct, and they need to focus on what IS being run first (either by nerfs or buffs to alternatives/counters), only then can you look at the toally useless skills.
 * I do hope that Izzy takes the time to actually read this feedback, as harsh and offensive as people are being (which i dont agree with) i think he and his team need to learn from this, and learn fast. They need to stop skimming over things and really get things done. not change 2 things that are worthwhile but then make 40 pointless changes just to make it look like they've done a lot. And finally a general note to A-Net concerning this. If you feel that Izzy is doing what is being asked of him, or you feel that he is doing the best he can with the time/man-power he has....then you need to get more people on this, It's by far the biggest issue with guild wars, and its the one thing that is causing you to lose players and reputation. -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 05:57, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Boo hoo so called top guilds disband all the time. You people who are already saying the update is bad make me sick. It's only been out for like a day so you've barely have had time to play with all the changes. Too bad for you while the majority of guild wars players will happily adapt to the changes you guys are just wasting time complaining and insulting without any good reasons. 70.132.2.120 06:06, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * How nieve, very few of the updates had problems, most of them were good, the serious issue is that highly overpowered builds were not corrected, highly worthless and disfunctional skills were not corrected, and no functional alterations were added to make scaling improvements to the game. Ever how great or poor the changes are, they do not justify the evasion of priority disfunctions and gameplay hazards, so save your mockery for someone ignorant.--BahamutKaiser 06:19, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Reasons:
 * Nothing new added skill-wise.
 * Nothing important nerfed.
 * "Adapting" to the changes does not add enjoyment. Really, the game barely changed with this skill balance, and since another one won't be done for a month or two, it is kind of disappointing. No, I have nothing personal against Izzy, hell, I even think its pretty cool of him to give out his gaming name and not hide from the community, like the community relations crew does. However, this skill update is disappointing, in more ways than one. Not many needed nerfs happened, or happened in the wrong place for some reason. Paired with hardly any buffs significant enough to make new viable builds with. All of the mesmer buffs, while nice, none of them really touch on the skills that need attention. (edit) Look at the updates done to the Ritualist. Oh, wait, they didn't alter any Ritualist skill besides the indirect spirit nerf. Are Ritualists that balanced that they do not need a single skill changed? Not a single skill? Come on. --Deathwing 06:14, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * you guys really need to read the update more carefully "We will be evaluating the following changes over the course of the next week. Additional adjustments may be made during that time period." To me that means there is at least 50% chance of there being another skill update in the next 7 days. And having another update in October would follow the trend in August and June. I do wish Isaiah posted skill updates more frequently, I think I recall something about too many updates interfering with tournaments, but I'd rather the game be updated all the time regardless of tournament schedules. 70.132.2.120 07:29, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * If nobody complains, no further changes will be made because they assume everyone is happy. --Deathwing 07:31, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Again so nieve, if they totally avoided rebalance on totally broken, and not just broken but significant skills already, than they aren't considering them when the time to evaluate the changes they just made comes along. Unless otherwise stated, it is perfectly natural to assume their evaluation is only on the skills they just altered, and will only be making additional alterations in a short time to rectify any poorly thought changes made recently, not continue balancing additional skills.

Some of us have been observing the game updates enough to know how they operate, and unless a new decision to get more involved is made by the developers, we already know what they are likely to do simply based on a history of observation. The people who come here may not represent all the people playing in the game, but we certainly represent those who are concerned enough and involved enough to corespond and dispute features and changes in the game. Others are either unaware, unconcerned, or unconvinced about writing to the developers to help identify failures and inconsitencies, so the developers have to rely on their own observations or those of the players playing the game, and since they are obviously spending their time on other "priorities", they should be utilizing the analysis we give them effectively, they are apparently less concerned than us for sure.--BahamutKaiser 16:48, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Whiners may be needed, they may be right, but what I meant is that attacking Izzy personally, calling him names and the like, that is just too much. It is just a game, Izzy is just trying to do his job and if you guys can't keep the discussion civilized, then you don't deserve to be listened to in the first place. Fortunately, most people who posted here have proven that people like Radeam are an exception. Izzy is just a human, so don't treat him like trash. That was all what I was trying to accomplish and fortunatel, it was mostly unneccesary. Nicky Silverstar 19:17, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Stop with the fanboyism. It is common knowledge that Izzy is currently failing at his job. Izzy, please let someone with more knowledge of the game do the skill balance so you can go off and make sure the PvP for GW2 is not broken like for GW1. I do thank you for the new skills introduced with EotN which so far all (give or take a few) seem balanced, but the current balance of the rest of the metagame needs to be addressed quickly and as it is in a sorry state and needs a lot of attention. At the moment skill balances are not frequent enough and are not of a high enough standard (many skills are not addressed which should be, and others are balanced incorrectly causing more imbalance). &mdash; Hyperion // talk 22:06, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think Izzy is unqualified for the job... though I'm not so sure he is. What is obvious is that there isn't enough attention and action being done to rectify the endless list of failing skills, and I don't think any level of skill balance ability would make the neccessary changes at the rate they are being addressed.  I will admit, Izzy or Anet, has an unreasonable bias against certain things which belong in the game, and they need to develop skills around function and fairness to a diversity of gameplay interests, and stop protecting their personal interests.  Mainly I refer to their suppression of AoE damage and support skills putting Dervish, Elementist, Ritualist and Paragon in a suppresive bind instead of direct opposition.--BahamutKaiser 05:40, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry to you say you are not Izzy's boss or have any clue of how Arenanet measures job performance. What you whiners and haters are in the eyes of Arenanet is a bad customer. Moreover, you're green with envy because you don't get to decide the skill changes but Izzy does. Izzy is the king here and you're just another player. 70.132.2.120 05:42, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Such ignorance should be hammered, but your not even worth the time, the developers disagree with you on that one, perhaps you should read their opinion on it.--BahamutKaiser 05:49, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This is rediculous. Anet NEEDS to get people that are willing to address the problem. Izzy may be worried about power creeping or the current meta, but theres the problem. you dont solve this problem by working backwards, nerfing the good sskills into mediocrity, you buff the BAD skills. not just Izzy, but the entire Balance team has screwed up MAJORLY. its almost as bad as the age of empires 3 game. 98.196.45.234 23:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Wait there's a balance team? I thought only Izzy was screwing up because there weren't enough people, but cmon the whole balance team fails at balancing then. Antiarchangel 00:33, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The "buff everything" mentality is what has caused many of the problems with GW's balance(either directly due to actual buffs, or indirectly due to introduction of overpowered skills). See ritspike, RaO(intended to return thumpers to usefulness, instead returned them to imbaness), SF(presumably intended as buff to Eles' damage dealing, instead buffed skillless noobs' damage dealing), Conjure buff, Cripslash buff, and probably countless more that don't immediately spring to mind. --Edru viransu 01:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

How many skills are there.......anyone? anyone? over 1300. How many skill combinations are there? anyone? anyone want to do the math? Now concider the time, effort, forethought it takes to go through that huge number of possible skill combinations and try to ballance all of them, when changing one has a cascading effect on all other skills. It's like painting the Golden Gate Bridge....it is a never ending process. This is not the first nerf, nor buff, nor will it be the last. No human on earth has the foresight to know how that many skills will interact, all that can be done is watch, and modify as new "overpowerded skills" rise to the top. A few people have provided constructive suggestions, which I'm sure Izzy will take into concideration. But for those who have decided Izzy is the blame all root of all evil......shame on you. It's only been a few days, and we havn't seen how the skills balance out yet. Personally, I feel like a few new skills like bleading ears, or something to break the wall of Paragon shouts would be effective. But I think this balance will work as well. Med Luvin 18:34, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * You know, this is one of those blind misconceptions that obscure the chance to progress. This idea that everything must be extensively tested in order to be altered at all.  That certain skill combinations will arise with outlandish power if any skills are improved or altered.  Here's the thing, testing doesn't work that way.  Even in such a controlled vitual environment, there are endless oddities which cannot be accounted for, that is the reason the most well known scientific method is called, trial and error.


 * People who do not understand what it takes to find success will always try to control and safeguard every feature in fear of losing something they already have, even if what they already have isn't good enough, instead of risking something that is often much less valuable or much less harmful than they think in order to discover the best there is to offer.


 * Do you honestly think Izzy sets hundreds of test players in a room testing all the combination effects in order to see if a change will produce an outlandish effect? No, just listen to Izzys remarks, he does the significant observation after it is changed and sees how it effects the gaming community.


 * It is true, that when you get closer and closer to balance, you make smaller and smaller adjustments, but when you have entirely defective and useless abilities like shelter and displacement, and entire professions are having serious blending difficulties with the game and other professions like paragon, it is obvious that larger scale changes are needed to make progress in balance.


 * Izzy, and the staff, like many players as well, have spent alot of time since the release of the game observing the effects of skills and combinations, the developers made the skills and designed them to work together in particular ways. Throwing up big numbers like 1300 and pretending like nothing can be changed unless it is tested and perfected is simply a farce.  In reality, not all skills affect another, and continued use and study of the game and skills yeilds an extensive understanding of what is highly likely to work, all that is left is to make changes.


 * The simple issue is, there is alot of work to do, the "game" isn't balanced at all. Balance so far has been nothing but balancing the meta, tearing skills out of play, reducing gameplay features to obscurity, and fostering bias preferances.  Anet is a long shot away from actually balancing even a majority of the skills, with most of them intentionally left out of interest just to reduce the amount of work on balancing the meta, in order to get a lions share of the skills functional and competative, serious measures need to be taken to overhaul the skill list.


 * This will take some testing, as simply powering up and nerfing down a bunch of skills woln't address many of them. Simple functions and availability on alot of skills need to be seriously restructured, and with a vast sum of skills being altered, alot of unseen alterations will occur, requiring reversals and additional adjustments.  But the point is, the fastest route to accomplishment is trial and error, it is alright for mistakes to be made, mistakes are better than inaction, and simply trying it out will yield 10 times faster feedback than guessing and prejudging the outcome of every alteration.


 * You can say it doesn't work, but it is a universal principal, calculated risk, testing, and attempting always yield better and faster results than fear and security, that is why people are able to get rich in stocks, sales, investments and networking. There is always the chance of failure, but those who understand success the most prepare themselves and reduce failure greatly, wile understanding that far greater success will be discovered with confidence and longevity.  And you can disagree all you want, but I personally know over a dozen self made millionares, and have met hundreds of them, so you can't persuade me with your "broke mans opinion" on decision or life.--BahamutKaiser 19:53, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd love to post in this and try and discuss it out, but I got here a bit late and it's all ready degraded into less of a discussion and more of a mud flinging contest, in the end to those who feel stuff isn't balanced, your right it's not still needs a hell a lot of work. To those who are happy with the progress, thanks but still needs a lot of work. In the end this type of discussion doesn't help either case as it surely isn't helping the game get balanced. ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:38, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It's nice that your even here to talk to us, that already beats most game support.--BahamutKaiser 20:43, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That is exactly why I disagreed with Radeam's statement. Izzy is doing the best he can and we should thank him for listening to us in the first place, not bashing him for every little thing we don't agree with. Nicky Silverstar 20:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Please spell my name correctly...just once. It severely insults your intelligence. The PvP community should not suffer due to incompetence, and apparently Izzy's "best" is not up to par. We need serious changes that will dramatically change the metagame. Not dumb shit, like that which was introduced in the most recent update. 209.189.130.127 21:57, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Clearly your points bring a valid and intelligent point of view to the coversation filled with tons of supporting evidence about skill updates and changes, I really enjoy the careful use of the term "dumb sh!t" as it adds that level of education and elegance that wasn't there before. (This is Izzy trolling) ~Izzy @-&#39; 00:59, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * If would like, after my ban expires, I will post all the current failures of the most recent update. Now don't get me wrong Izzy; I have nothing against you as a person. However, when it comes to game balance, you rarely make good decisions. Usually, it takes you forever to come up with a proper solution to a problem; the same solution is created by Ensign, 4 weeks prior. I will answer any of your questions, when not being banned/censored. 68.35.91.2 02:00, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Izzy gets my vote for troll of the year. See? Even gods can troll, and be good at it. --Deathwing 01:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Nice trolling, but isn't it a more productive use of your time to be working on fixing the game? Wouldn't it be better to spend your time on the wiki actually discussing the game instead of discussing how the person presented their argument? --Edru viransu 16:07, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Izzy can do whatever he wants with his free time, specially if he enjoys this. Or do you think the person in charge of skill balances should have no free time? Coran Ironclaw 18:31, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * No, that's not what I think. This discussion is turning into a troll fest(Readem trolls Nicky, then gets trolled by Izzy, who gets trolled by me, who gets trolled by you), so let's stop, yes? --Edru viransu 18:41, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Now that's a post.Coran Ironclaw 19:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Should we bash him when he leaves vastly overpowered stuff in the game for a year? I suspect that that's partially the fault of the higher-ups at A.net, but it's also partially Izzy's fault for being too hesitant to fix the things that are broken. Also, I don't know what kind of crappy games you guys are playing to think that just talking is better than most games' interaction with their community, but from my experience, a good deal of games(mostly the good ones) have a great deal of player-dev interaction. GW is no exception, although Anet has had some rather unprecedented, in my experience, CR disasters. I'm very glad and thankful that Izzy and the other devs interact with the players here, on IRC, in game, and elsewhere, but interaction alone is meaningless. --Edru viransu 23:51, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Vastly overpowered stuff for a year? but but, updates, and skill changes *sigh* ok I'm pulling out of this conversation as clearly logic and reason are gone and once again any posts here only take time away from the posts that help balance the game. ~Izzy @-&#39; 01:01, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Hexway, Sway, SF-way, Defensive Meta, Paragons, Air-spike, Shadow Form fags, ect...the list goes on and on. All of them, either took months to balance (and the end result was pitiful), or they are being abused as we speak. So the question remains Izzy; are you blind, or ignorant? 68.35.91.2 01:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The specific example I was thinking of was Melandru dervs. Vastly could perhaps be percieved as exaggeration(although I would disagree), but I'm fairly certain that almost no one would argue that they are currently balanced. --Edru viransu 02:57, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it's balanced, like Izzy said, Mel dervish has a cost to fit the ability. Just like SF is balance in comparison to cost and alternatives available for an elite. This is one of those misconceptions that people just don't understand, balance isn't all about the meta, and nerfs arn't the only way to counteract an advantage. There is more than one balance, and players just don't recognize that, there is the cost and value balance, the competative comparison balance, the meta balance, and than there is even higher priorities, like diverse and dynamic gameplay and simple satisfaction. You can balance the meta all day long and get nowhere, sometimes the counters are already there and unused, some are often even underpowered, but proper use and recognition of them as well as promotion of them help, unconstructive critisizm doesn't.

Melundru is disfunctional, not imbalanced, it's limited effect and vast advantage still come down to a self only effect in a team which cannot survive entirely of dervish, the monks and casters are still viable targets, and there are plenty of hexes for missing, attack speed and some even to reduce damage. The object here is where it doesn't fit into the meta, and it also doesn't fit a dervish energy. It doesn't have to come down, lets start with that, as SF is so unbeatable, abilities to totally defeat conditions are a naturally in opposition, but a lesser effect and lesser cost would be more condusive to gameplay. A benificial trade-off can be considered in order to allow less immunity and value elsewhere.

SF, is not broken, it is completely reasonable and a good standard for elementist damage, the real issue is all the skills that don't compete on this level of AoE damage. The issue is effective counters. Ward Against Harm still offers a powerful counter to the AoE potency of fire magic including SF, and so does better positioning. There are even better counters which just don't work well enough, like extinguish, which is greatly limited by cost, if it had a rapid recharge rate, it could fight back against SF with condition removal and healing for a bargain price, the issue is that it is dually limited by cost and recharge time. Martyr, I haven't seen that one in a wile. For a skill that absorbs all conditions onto yourself and cost you an elite, it really isn't performing. Martyr could easily merit a .5s cast time, and a 3-5s recharge, against AoE application of a single condition, it is much less ineffective, and in combination with Frigid armor, burning would basically be whiped out with little potency. What makes it better is an elementist can run it with no points used in protection.

The problem is that most people just come here to shed their dislikes and jaded experience on Izzy with no creativity or versatile means to counteract highly situational builds with counters instead of nerfs which remove them from normal application. What?, we should just nerf SF because multiple users can bring down AoE wrath?, a single elementist should be bringing down effective AoE wrath, that's the problem. There's only 2 ways to counteract the remote SF intesive party, change the way SF works fundimentally, or provide counters powerful enough to shut it down. It isn't alright if you just reduce it's duration which will not solve the remote use problem, and handicap the single use value.

Paragons and defensive meta, most of that defense is melee, the armor value has already been capped. Where is the alternative damage?, does blocking stop elemental damage? Where is the AoE punishment?, is standing together for benificial effects entirely positive? Sure the AoE effects can do damage, but AoE benifits can be controlled and synergized, AoE punishments are a chance and strategy.

The vast majority of writers here are just piping in with their dislike of a build they don't appreciate or dislike, or whining about the failure of a skill, honestly, unless you can think about solutions creatively, your not helping. No simply stating that some skill is overpowered isn't helpful, there are likely reasons why an "overpowered" skill stays in play, and discovering a solution in reverse is 10 times more effective. But hey, some people just can't graduate beyond addition and subtraction... simplicity and complextiy, ease and difficulty, ironically, simplicity is often accompanied by difficulty, and complexity is accompanied by ease. In other words, simple doesn't mean easy.

But Izzy is right, listening to a bunch of players belly ache doesn't solve anything, and a wealth of the same bias, mundain and simple conclusion doesn't offer him much to work with. I just hope Izzy qualifies his responses, because the most effective means of denial is ignoring, and no matter how much of the population agrees on something, simple solutions always monotinize the game, and rarely eliminate the problem, they just shift it elsewhere.--BahamutKaiser 03:58, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Nothing ever gets accomplished, because Anet doesn't care and no one ever listens. Though complaining solves nothing in the broad spectrum of things, at least it gives us something to do while GW becomes progressively worse and Izzy continues to fuck up. We gave good suggestions for AR, and Izzy disregarded our comments. Get off your fucking high-horse Bahamut; at least we can spell “wiped” and “fundamentally”. Ffs 209.189.130.127 21:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think i ever saw a game dev talk skill balance like this with players ever with any of the games I played, so they do care. It's his job to fix balance so thats skills can be used in pvp and pve. With the current difference in power levels in pvp and pve, it's not an easy job. And complaining might not help, but it sure isn't helping at all at this point. All it does is make sure they stop listening.Z3ronl 22:23, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * They do receive our opinions, they do change things, and they do care. I can argue that it's not enough, reguardless of the effort going in, I personally am not satisfied, as well as many others.  But denying any interest and involvement and action doesn't amount to anything, you can say nothings being done all you want, but the fact is, something is being done, just not what you want, and denial just invalidates your opinion.  If you can't be honest, rational, mature and educated about your responses than they just woln't amount to anything, and you can whine and pout all you want, dignified people will just tune out.--BahamutKaiser 22:44, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yknow, instead of ducking out on the question Izzy, could you respond to Readem and Edru? And as far as I have seen, people HAVE had rational mature responses, guru's pvp section has alot of quality posts on it and has had good ideas but they get the same (we'll pass it on) response. It seemed like all you did was blatently brush off valid points so you can move on to something that wont challenge you to respond. If you think Readem listing the things said by top players as over powered and his offering of help by answering questions(though not in a real polite way) then I think you are just purposely avoiding it and hoping it will go away. And if you want to argue about etiquette or his lack of respect when the point is still out there that seems illogical to me. Also, I am not trying to be offensive, I would just like to see a definitive answer...--Atlas Oranos 02:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The AT seems to screw skill balance up so much, a way of test balancing skills needs to be put in place and not affext AT. Do this and we can get back to far more regular skill balancing. Ajax Baby Eater 16:23, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * What needs to be fixed. Anet doesn't know what their fiddling about does, and even after it completely and totally trashes the game (not to mention the meta), they don't revert it. Months of adding shit and not fixing it has led to this problem; every "fix" they've done hasn't actually fixed anything. Sort of like nerfing Searing Flames instead of fixing the HA maps and nerfing Jagged instead of fixing Soul Reaping, ANet has been going after the wrong stuff pretty much every time. - Auron 16:30, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Because of course, you're completely right and the most prominent outstanding authority on everything, and that Anet should sack all of their professional game developers and skill balancers and employ you instead. Don't make me laugh, you only see the effects of skill balances, not the reasoning, I'm damned sure if some of your idea were implemented, things you didn't expect to happen will happen, and other people like you will be pissed off and whine about it.--Ckal Ktak 16:39, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * For the sake of not breaking NPA; read and become wise. - Auron 16:48, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter, this discussion is now just an argument, I may as well at least try and silence a whining kiddie or two. --Ckal Ktak 20:46, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Who exactly is whining? Take this shit elsewhere please. Regardless of what you think, this is still a discussion, questions have been asked and Izzy has simply not answered yet.--70.160.8.128 20:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yah instead of just telling izzy how horrible he is at his job, why don't you guys give him some suggestions? One such suggestion would be "Learn Math" or "Learn the basic concepts of Game Balance," or even "Read fan input."  There are a lot of players on this wiki who give you great suggestions, but those guys are usually flooded over by all the whining and bitching and bad players saying stuff like "Skill X isn't broken because I use it and can't run any other build if it gets nerfed." 72.235.48.41 09:52, 22 October 2007 (UTC) [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 12:05, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I hope this hasnt been archived so Izzy can simply ignore the questions STILL not answered in the thread.--72.84.72.29 20:27, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Think about it... It doesn't say "archive", so it's not. The page was getting too long with all the whiners. Lord Belar 20:31, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Just wanna thank Izzy for continuing to ignore this like I knew he would.--70.160.8.128 22:03, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you for trolling, at least do it on the appropriate page. Lord Belar 23:07, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not trolling, get over yourself.--72.84.74.226 23:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)