Talk:Mursaat/archive 3

Ummm
How do you know that the Mursaat are not infused? I thought you could not copy monster skills with Mesmers spells (Arcane ....)? Reaper of Scythes ** 22:33, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I was just rewording a note that was already there. However, it has presumably been tested somehow. --Santax (talk · contribs) 22:35, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but how xD? Reaper of Scythes ** User Reaper of ScythesJuggernaut1.png 22:35, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thunderhead Keep mission and bonus. The bonus brings 6 independant Jade Armors (4 Armors and 2 Bows). They attack the Stone Summit, White Mantle, and Mursaat which are part of the normal bonus. When they attack the Mursaat, and are attacked by them, you can note that the Spectral Agony does full degeneration and damage by comparing it to other degeneration and damage skills and noticing the amount of health lost/comparing the rate of the health bars going down. -- Konig/ talk 23:20, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * And a note on some of the newest note: Linsey has stated here that there is no connection between the Mursaat and the Enchanted Armors. And I went and removed unneeded commentary on some other notes. -- Konig/ talk 23:29, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, so it is a bug then. Thanks Konig. Reaper of Scythes ** User Reaper of ScythesJuggernaut1.png 23:36, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No, not really a bug. The mission was changed to be easier a long time ago because it was very hard or something. The Jade Armor might have been purposely changed to do such for the purpose of making the mission easier -- Konig/ talk 08:23, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Infusion is a technology (or magic, whatever you want to call it) that was developed by the Seers, not the Mursaat. There is no indication that the Mursaat developed a resistance to their own power. I would say it was intentional to match lore. --Knux 05:01, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Taking a while
I understand all the points above and the amount of unnecessary controversy this page is creating, but it needs to be shortened, and I think almost all of the people posting here have agreed on that. A amount of lore describes the White Mantle or the Prophecies Storyline in general, when a quick overview could be given instead, and if necessary a "See also" section linking to the Prophecies storyline and White Mantle (and probably Jade Armor/Bow as well) articles. This is just ridiculous as is, though, and needs to be drastically shortened; it's been this way for too long.

For now I'm just going to fix up a few things with the text at the top, grammar and such. --Kyoshi (Talk) 19:32, 18 January 2010 (UTC) <---this- Zesbeer 06:24, 21 January 2010 (UTC) and "i am simply calling how how bad ur edit was." <-- You certainly didn't indicate that with your own comments. The way you said it, you sounded like you thought the entire edit was wrong. But this isn't the place for a who's-right argument. If that's what you meant, then fine, I really don't care. I'm more concerned about how you're treating me, like I'm spreading miasma with every action I take, and like you have to announce that I'm wrong with every comment you post. It's not constructive, and it doesn't help the article, and it generally offends me, and it needs to stop NOW. If it continues without justification, I will ask admins to take action. I'm not taking it from you anymore.
 * How I see it, the first section, aside from grammar and ways to shorten it without removing information, is fine (so you moving the second paragraph to notes actually not only didn'tneed to be done, but probably shouldn't have been done due to it being lore). The issue is the "Story" section. I'll go back over it today to see what can be removed, again. -- Konig / talk 21:12, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * what kyoshi edited detracted from the article imho. and was not what u were talking about. the note about the seers needs to stay seeing as it is a true fact and i am rather sure there are cut seens to back that up.- [[Image:User_Zesbeer_sig.png|link=User talk:Zesbeer‎]] Zesbeer 21:37, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * What I meant was that he moved something from above into the notes - as I see it, notes are for additional game information (such as the polymock piece thing), not for lore which was above and in fact made the images not-so-messy with the section headings and their edit button. I am currently reworking it, I've reduced several lines from the Rise of the White Mantle section and the Veil Falls section, I moved the note back to the top to how it was before Kyoshi's edit, to make the spoiler tag and the section headings not clash with the first image (which is one reason why that portion was there and led to a lot of argument on how to "fix" that bit), and I am currently working on the reducing the size of the Return of the Unseen Ones section. -- Konig / talk
 * i <3 u konig... it sounds like ur doing the right edit were as kyoshi just made it worse. i was going to revert kyoshi's and make some of his changes but i knew u were editing it.- [[Image:User_Zesbeer_sig.png|link=User talk:Zesbeer‎]] Zesbeer 21:45, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Only thing Kyoshi did wrong was removing the second paragraph and making the note. Anyways, I've made the edit, change where you think it should be. I think we could probably get rid of the second paragraph of "The Veil Falls" as that is mostly on the storyline of Prophecies, but I couldn't figure out how to reword the third paragraph to fit the lack of the second paragraph. Also changed "Story" to "Background" as I think that looks better (I think I should go through all other pages I edited and replace "History" with "Background") -- Konig / talk 21:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * @Zesbeer: Drop your vendetta against me already. I'm just trying to help and you think every single goddamn thing I do is wrong, clearly with little thought on the matter. I did not remove the note about the Seer's race, I only moved it to the "Notes" section, because I decided at the time that it was a "note" not directly pertaining to the Mursaat themselves. I really didn't care very much on that one and I certainly see and agree with Konig's point. However the grammar was atrocious and had to be fixed, one way or another, and that's where your vendetta clearly comes in; correcting grammar in no way detracts from the article, and that and the paragraph moved to notes were my only two changes.
 * I'll discuss this more later, but I'm tired and really don't have the patience or time for it right now. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 05:49, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * i dont have a vendetta against u. i am simply calling how how bad ur edit was. and will continue to do so if they continue to be so.- [[Image:User_Zesbeer_sig.png|link=User talk:Zesbeer‎]] Zesbeer 06:03, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Ironic how Konig said himself that my edit wasn't all bad, but you didn't say that you disagree with him. Twice. If it's not a vendetta then it's selective reading or just plain ignorance. If you think Konig's edit was perfect when he didn't even revert my entire edit, then my edit must be partly good, correct? Yet you think it's "aids", presumably. Care to explain? --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 18:53, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the part of your edit that Zesbeer disagrees with is what I reverted. -- Konig / talk 05:12, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "I think the part of your edit that Zesbeer disagrees with is what I reverted."
 * "i <3 u konig... it sounds like ur doing the right edit were as kyoshi just made it worse."
 * If you intend to continue to tell me that my edits are trash in the future, you'd best prepare a decent excuse for it and be able to explain it on your own. "Kyoshi is wrong" just isn't good enough, and never should have been. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 14:24, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * /facepalm the fact that i only respond with a quote and a this should indicate to u that i dont care and that ur dragging this out and making it a bigger deal then it is so good job u. on top of that ur edits to this page have been bad you removed lore, didnt follow page guidelines ect if u want me to show u how bad ur edits are just ask because i will gladly show you. i am not personaly attacking u if you make a crappy edit i will call u or anyone out on it. and have in the past.- [[Image:User_Zesbeer_sig.png|link=User talk:Zesbeer‎]] Zesbeer 21:22, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Honestly, you two act like a married couple. If you insist on continuing this argument, please take it to either of your talk pages so that this page and topic does not get sidetracked anymore. Thank you. -- Konig / talk 23:23, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * agreed.- [[Image:User_Zesbeer_sig.png|link=User talk:Zesbeer‎]] Zesbeer 00:29, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Sex & Gender
Do Murssat have a distinquishable sex and/or gender (as defined by humans), or are they monogendered, intergendered, androgynous, genderless, hermaphrodite, asexual or something else entirely? Reason for asking is here. --Falconeye 06:40, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Mercia is a female name, however, there is only one model and no known lore on this. Best to ask a developer (such as Bobby this question. -- Konig / talk 08:31, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * If they're going to give Sylvari breasts they might as well make a "female" model for Mursaat for GW2... But then again there might not be any females left alive by GW2. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 2.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:18, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * GW2 will have a lot more models by the look of it. We know they're adding children of various races (instead of just human children), and females of the centaur and charr races at least. I'm sure that if there are female mursaat in lore there will be female mursaat in GW2. -- Konig / talk 21:22, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Janthir
Don't remember anywhere mentioning them being from Janthir?--Lord randy taylor 00:20, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * #Dismantle Vincent Evan [Air Henchman] 02:28, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * # Obey ftw Hell Darkknight 02:56, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The wiki is not a forum, please do not spam that stuff here. -- Konig / talk 03:01, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Future Race in GW2
does the lore for this race make it possible for being a choice as a future race in GW2 like the Dwarfs may be? Or are they likely a hostile race that die off?--Knighthonor 06:39, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Doubt that either the Mursaat or the dwarves will become playable races in GW2. But we know they have some role - and given their extremely low numbers, it's even more unlike that the Mursaat would be playable. -- Konig / talk 07:49, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * fairly certain finished announcing GW2 races(playable) --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 99.61.184.150 (talk).
 * Finished announcing playable races in the first release, anyway. I'm pulling for Tengu as playable from Cantha.
 * But yeah, Mursaat, definitely not. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 02:14, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Kisu's successor drives the Tengu from Cantha, so I don't see that happening unfortunately. Perhaps Tengu from Kryta or elsewhere in Tyria, but doubtful it would be Cantha.  --Wolf Moonstar 5:35, 8 April 2010 [EST]
 * You cut into the middle of my comment. I fixed it for you. While it's true that the emperor begins to drive other races from Cantha, they have to go somewhere. It doesn't say there was genocide, just driving out. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 18:58, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Two words for you, Wolf: Shing Jea. Taka Ragranok 17:55, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Shing Jea is Cantha. I think it's safe to assume the emperor has some influence there, though I suppose exactly how much will remain to be seen regarding Usoku. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 03:33, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Shing Jea is actually part of the Empire. It would be one of the first areas "purged" along with Kaineng City. Then the Jade Sea and Echovald - if possible - would be. If there are non-human races in Cantha, it'll be in the Kurz/Lux areas, or south of that. -- Konig / talk 03:49, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sure there are plenty of places in Cantha for the more rebellious Tengu to hide. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 2.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:21, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

(resetting this line) Wolf, the only thing is, the headmaster's sorta the guy who would decide what the heck happens on the island. We can maybe assume Vang became the headmaster, succeeding Togo, and he doesn't show any ill will to the Tengu (to MY knowledge)…especially seeing that since Togo's such a powerful ritualist, the Envoys would prolly grant him the power to communicate with the school anyway. Taka Ragranok 14:26, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Unseen Ones
Dumb question, but since the Mursaat are "unseen ones," if a player has not ascended yet, can the Mursaat still be seen and attacked? *Malganis Frostmourn* 12.106.72.10 17:08, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, but only if you don't follow the story line. ThrainUser_Thrain_Sig.png contribs 17:10, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Due to that being a game mechanics thing, you can if you go to the Southern Shiverpeaks. But in lore, they can't be seen (supposedly) until one ascends. Also, new sections go to the bottom. -- Konig / talk 17:49, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Question
so like are they evil or are they good? o_O
 * Evil without a doubt, although it's worth pointing out that they were in fact against Abaddon, which makes them fairly unusual for major GW1 antagonists. Incidentally, you should definitely read the "Alignment Misconception" section above... Arshay Duskbrow 05:47, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Ever since Abaddon became the big bad generic mastermind and they decided that almost every single villain would have influence from him. Next on GW2: How Abaddon gave Primordus the power to create the Destroyers XD - VileLasagna 11:19, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Egotistical, at least. I say they are evil selfish and all that, practically just a tall floating version of the asura. But what one may find evil another may find as "could be worse" - so it depends on the person. Also, Arshay, nothing says they are against Abaddon. That's just player opinion, for all we know they didn't even know what the titans were (I doubt that, personally, since the forgotten and seers do and the mursaat are just as old if not older), let alone Abaddon (well, they most likely knew of him, considering the race predates the gods on Tyria, but that the door led to Abaddon and the Realm of Torment? Who knows). I think they were just out to save their own butts. Nothing more, nothing less. @VileLasagna: Fortunately, the elder dragons predate the gods (at least, predate them on Tyria). -- Konig / talk 21:32, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but the way my expectations for GW2 have been, I wouldn't put such a thing out of question. As for the original question: Who's to care if they're evil or not after the ascended heroes pretty much killed them all while opening the door of Komalie. And speaking of that (and detracting this once more), I'm personally not convinced that the Lich's death alone will feed the bloodstone for that long. If so I guess the question of the Mursaats' intent and righteouness will come back yet again to haunt us when titans start pouring out of the Foundry once more (and they've been made so much more horrible with Nightfall and Madness Titan) - VileLasagna 23:52, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Do note that it wasn't the bloodstone, but the soul batteries that closed the door. Also, we did kill some titans, which are literally souls that create bodies from elements. Also, the volcano erupts after the mission, thus covering (possibly) the Door of Komalie, and the bloodstone. -- Konig / talk 01:15, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * And titans couldn't possibly break through a heap of rocks. =P --Kyoshi [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] (Talk) 17:24, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It depends, really. It depends on how much lava covered the door, how long the door lasts, and how close the lava got to the door instead of the barrier.
 * We've seen souls survive being in the belly of a scarab queen for 200 years. And those two souls were perfectly fine. A single soul could probably last thousands of years as an energy source - but then again, we killed Khilbron's soul. :3
 * Though on another hand, the lava could of destroyed the new Ether Seals, and the new soul batteries, and in turn open the door... just to have lava pour through to the other side and seal the portal on both ends. And if you've seen Stargate SG-1, I'm sure you know what happens when people walk through a portal just to have it blocked off. KERSPLAT -- Konig / talk 17:52, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Nah, never seen Stargate, lol. We don't really know that much about the soul batteries though, except that the Mursaat were pretty desperate to have all the potentially powerful humans killed and used as fuel, so either keeping the door closed takes serious amounts of energy, or the Mursaat were just paranoid. =P Hard to tell how the Lich's soul would play into that, though we could probably assume it would seal things off longer than mere untrained "chosen".
 * As far as the lava, also hard to say. I just like providing counterpoint XP (damn lab computer shiftlocked me will sign later this is Kyoshi)
 * Hey, last I met Armageddon Lords and Hands and Fists of the Titans they were kinda coming OUT of the Lava. Didn't seem to be bother at the time (Except maybe for Lina) - VileLasagna 18:03, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Good thing that, after the destruction of Mallyx, Kormir turns the Realm of Torment into the Redeemed Realm. So no more need to worry. :P Anyway, as far as the Mursaat's "moral ambiguity", I don't believe in it. They are portrayed as, and intended to be taken as, rank villains with the typical "ancient race manipulating 'lesser beings' for their own purposes" setup. Even if you want to argue that their only real goal was self-preservation, that kind of opens a can of worms I haven't seen opened much anywhere: The question of why the Titans were apparently such a threat to the Mursaat specifically, and why they were apparently so effective at destroying the Mursaat specifically. How is it that they were obliterated so quickly and so completely? Why couldn't the Mursaat hide, or flee? Why couldn't they have joined forces with the Chosen? And so on and on. I've never heard this facet addressed. Arshay Duskbrow 18:29, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That's be an interesting development. Maybe about the Mursaat participating in the war that saw Abaddon cast down and the Margonites banished to the realm of torment of something. So far all we've got is "Glint said they'd get pwnt", which eventually proved to be kinda true. Though the Mursaat kinda come out as quite stereotypical villains, I always feel that rather than whether they were "oh so evil" or not, is a question overshadowed by another one: "Who are you to ask after you kinda murdered them all?". It kinda gets lost in all the "thanks for saving X!" that sometimes, as is the case in the Flameseeker Prophecies, saving X involves the genocide of Y. - VileLasagna 18:39, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * @Kyoshi: I think the mursaat were paranoid. You know, end of the world, extinction of your race, that stuff does that to you.
 * @Vile: lava yes, but it would eventually harden. Also, titans make bodies out of their surroundings. So what you actually saw wasn't them coming out of lava, but forming bodies right there.
 * @Arshay: The titans have multiple advantages. Firstly, if you read the Flameseeker Prophecies book, at Abaddon's Mouth entry, it states that we the hero+henchmen broke most of their military (thus everyone left were either like headless chickens or not fighters). Secondly, the titans come from the Realm of Torment - I don't think Agony would do much damage compared to what they're literally made of (twisted and tormented souls). If anything, I wouldn't doubt that would be like food to them. I.e., I think the titans (and torment demons perhaps?) are like the Eidolon and have a natural defense to their Spectral Agony. And thirdly, the titans pwn anyone but the heroes, apparently.
 * Regarding the "why couldn't the mursaat hide/flee" - they could, Lazarus hid, and we're told that the mursaat will return in the future, and implied the seers will as well. Which means more than Lazarus probably survived. Personally, I find their way of doing things idiotic - it would of been better to befriend humanity from the get go, play the good guy, instead of making a reason for people to hate you and want you dead. -- Konig / talk 18:58, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

But they risked Humanity jumping to hatred of the Mursaat and racism right off the bat(like Humans are prone to do) and the cause being mostly lost. You actually think the Mursaat would have gotten a positive response/any progress i they asked nicely?--Lord randy taylor 18:45, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If they befriended humanity, showing their superiority but acted kindly, then they could of had a much better result than trying to kill off all humans (as that is, more or less, what they were doing with thousands killed within 2 years) which resulted in people wanting their death to stop the murders (Let's fight violence with violence!). So yes, if they "asked nicely" I think they would be getting a better outcome. Do note that the only reason they were killed off is because of what they did. So if they didn't do what they did, they might not have been wiped out. They could of also just kept away from humanity, never interacting with them. -- Konig / talk 19:50, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That would still leave them with the whole titan problem to fix - VileLasagna 20:47, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Who said souls were necessary to keep the door closed? -- Konig / talk 01:15, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No one really, but it was kinda suggested throughout the whole thing - VileLasagna 20:22, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Souls just seem to be the best energy source. Known and aside from the Mists that is. We know that they could be digested for over 200 years and be perfectly fine. -- Konig / talk 20:43, 14 May 2010 (UTC)