Feedback talk:User/Psyko/Variable Energy Regeneration

Too complicated, IMO; this is the second most basic number players need to know, turning it into an endless game of "exactly how many pips do I need to keep casting" is needlessly complex and requires the player to watch their energy management and skill use constantly, or risk screwing themselves for the next 20 seconds. That's the antithesis of what they're trying to do by turning energy into a "long term resource"; they don't want you to have to worry with every single skill or dodge that you might have just run yourself out of energy (or, in this case, knocked too many energy pips out so you can't keep fighting and need to rest for a bit). It also kills the flow of combat by making it most efficient to just wait a few seconds in between each cast. Look at the demo videos; regardless of energy costs, all of those players would be on near-zero energy regen after just a few seconds of combat. How is this supposed to play out over the course of a long battle (ie, The Shatterer) without making energy management for the smaller fights entirely irrelevant? In such a case, there is no choice; you MUST use your skills with a certain (learned) interval between them, or you WILL run out of energy regen. Skyy High 20:02, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I thank you for the criticism. It is always good to have someone else help you look at your own work.  But I also have to largely disagree with you on it's complexity.


 * "Too complicated, IMO; this is the second most basic number players need to know, turning it into an endless game of "exactly how many pips do I need to keep casting" is needlessly complex and requires the player to watch their energy management and skill use constantly, or risk screwing themselves for the next 20 seconds. That's the antithesis of what they're trying to do by turning energy into a "long term resource"; they don't want you to have to worry with every single skill or dodge that you might have just run yourself out of energy (or, in this case, knocked too many energy pips out so you can't keep fighting and need to rest for a bit)."


 * But what about the current system prevents that? Just because you have a larger energy bar does not mean you don't have to worry about it's expenditure.  The only difference is you have to monitor your skills over a longer period of time in order to make yourself the most proficient.


 * At most, my proposed system only adds another level of complexity on top of simple expenditure. What it gains you is a buffer between running yourself out and staying proficient.  It adds the ability for someone of enough proficiency to keep fighting, if not indefinitely, for a longer period of time, as well as decreasing the time it takes to recover in the mean time.  (otherwise, your option is chugging a potion to recover, and you just used your emergency cooldown for something rather trivial in comparison).


 * "It also kills the flow of combat by making it most efficient to just wait a few seconds in between each cast. Look at the demo videos; regardless of energy costs, all of those players would be on near-zero energy regen after just a few seconds of combat."


 * Near zero energy regen is different from near zero energy. If you are not out of energy, you can keep fighting.  And I never said energy regeneration HAD to decrease all the way to zero.  The lowest energy regeneration rate you could possibly reach might be something like 5% of your energy per second, instead of flat out zero.


 * "How is this supposed to play out over the course of a long battle (ie, The Shatterer) without making energy management for the smaller fights entirely irrelevant?"


 * I would assume that by the time you run into a long enough battle to start really eating into your energy, you will have also learned techniques to keep you from depleting it too fast. But at the same time, simply a larger energy bar does the same thing.  If it is balanced for a larger fight, then for smaller fights it becomes somewhat trivial because you have more than enough energy and regeneration to keep you going nigh indefinitely.


 * A variable rate of regeneration provides a new way to work around a long fight. If you start to get low on energy, then why not make a stalling tactic?  Use those control skills the devs gave you to open up time.  what other option do you have in EITHER situation?  With variable energy regeneration, you know that the longer you can wait, the more energy you will get back.  As well, you know that the longer you stall, the longer you will last because of the regen buffer.


 * And in truth, the system DOES somewhat trivialize low level combat. I already knew that it would.  But if as I said were true, and that it is supposed to be a litmus for how difficult a fight is (ArenaNet has stated as much themselves), why should you be running out of energy for combat that is hardly worth your time?  Carrying that train of thought, if a fight forces you to use skills and dodges at a faster rate than your energy can keep up, then you are fighting well above your level.  Keep in mind that your argument hinges more on how the system is balanced in the specific situation of GW2, instead of an inherent flaw in the system itself.


 * A few closing thoughts, and then I will summarize, because I do tend to put out a lot of information at a time. The first thought is that from what I understand of your arguments, quite a few of them really depend on how the system is balanced and implemented in GW2.  This isn't a static system just because i have outlined a single situation in my description, it can be tweaked and reworked in any number of ways depending on how it needs to work.


 * The second is that you can never balance a system to work both in short and long term. A longer energy bar means you can kill MORE enemies in between your down time, or it means you can fight a LONGER fight.  So you can not design a long energy bar to make short fights challenging, why would you expect any other system to?


 * And finally my summary. I'm going to iterate all of my points as simply as possible.  If you want, think them over and find the biggest problem in them.  Then tell me.


 * 1-What about the current system prevents people from closely considering their energy useage? Or, what about the system does not necessitate that alertness to become proficient?  If there isn't anything, then there isn't a reason why my system should.


 * 2-What stops people from waiting in between skills in the current system? Or, what about the current energy system keeps the flow of combat going?  Energy is supposed to be a limiter.  It exists so that skills can not be used too frequently.  It exists for people to be worried about it, so saying people are going to be worried about it is a "duh" statement.


 * 3-How does the current energy system support both short AND long fights, making both challenging? Or, how does it not trivialize one mode because of excess in order to balance the other mode?  One thing I wanted to achieve with this system was to make shorter fights less impacting on characters, so they could go through smaller fights without as much down time, or keeping up the "flow of combat" by allowing them to continue to do, given they are proficient at balancing their expenditure.


 * 4-What makes this system so much more complex than the current system? From my perspective, its only a single added layer, as well as a buffer between simply running down your energy and continuing to fight.  Is a single layer added enough to call it "too complex"?


 * Also: I edited the article with the inclusion of a "Why" section to better explain why I am suggesting this as a system. Perhaps that will clear up some of the questions others will have while reading the article.Psyko 17:35, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

This system essentially punishes players for using their energy resources, whereas, all the "punishment" you need for using energy is you have less available. This idea is the opposite of Arena Net's design goal for an energy system, which is to keep it simple, something anyone can understand, and keep a player effective and active in combat at all times. Well intentioned, but a bad idea for many reasons. ClavisRa 04:10, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * By all means, explain the many reasons why this is a bad idea. If you know why this wont work, then you can explain them, and then I can fix those problems.


 * Also, I don't see why this is so complex. As far as I see it, its only an extra, invisible bar, behind your energy that makes the system a little more dynamic.  I have seen other Ideas that propose essentially the same thing.  One of them specifically was a bar that regenerated quickly, and another that regenerated slowly.  The quick bar drew energy from the slow bar, so you had a bar from Guild Wars 1 fed by a bar from Guild Wars 2.  The system I'm proposing makes the original bar perform like that in it's initial stages, but allows it to start to dip when you use more and more energy.


 * I was going to say this in my last response. But I'm convinced that the only reason this sounds so complex is because you are directly exposed to the system that creates this situation.  If no one could see your energy "pips" recharging or being spent, then you would only know you had an energy bar, and then you would only know you were using energy.  If you let the system work in the background, then people could use and manipulate the system, without seeing it or directly working it.  So for people skilled enough to work the system, they would know about it and how it works.  For people who aren't skilled enough, as far as they know or care, they have an energy bar that acts kinda weird, but still functions very well.


 * Again, criticize. Explain why this system is so complex.  Tell me what is wrong with it.  Explain and expound.  If it really wont work, then I want to either fix this system or think something else up that will work better.  But so far, I have not been convinced.Psyko 17:35, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * "As far as I see it, its only an extra, invisible bar, behind your energy that makes the system a little more dynamic."
 * Yeah, that's the problem. Specifically, the "invisible bar" part. It's just not an intuitive system, it's difficult to visualize the effects before they happen (particularly after a couple of casts and dodges, you look back at your bar 10 seconds later and go "wth why aren't I recharging?"). It's moment-to-moment energy management, because everything you do instantly affects your performance, which is (as I said in my first comment here) the antithesis of what they're looking for in an energy management system.
 * The other system you referenced with two bars - one that fills slowly and one that fills quickly - is much, much more simple, because the two bars fill at constant rates. The fast-filling bar is clearly what you "should" be using, and if you start dipping into the slow-filling bar it's easily identified as a "bad thing"; ie, you're using energy faster than you should be, the fight is sapping you, you're going to need to rest afterwards, etc. Your system has one invisible bar, and one visible one that recharges at a variable rate. What makes for a good rate? Can a player tell at a glance exactly at what energy level and regeneration level they're "in trouble"? The fact that I can't theorycraft this (whereas I certainly can theorycraft how the other system "should" play in practice) tells me that the other system is intuitive, and this is not. Sorry, I'm just not seeing it working out.
 * If you need further evidence: "For people who aren't skilled enough, as far as they know or care, they have an energy bar that acts kinda weird, but still functions very well." That's bad. Very bad. Energy that regenerates at a constant rate is an obvious thing, and it SHOULD be obvious; it is, as I said, the second most important number in the game. If a casual player can't even figure out what governs the rate that they can use skills, the energy bar wouldn't become something they would learn to manage, it'd be a nuisance that occasionally gets them killed because they didn't know how to utilize it. Keep the higher-level systems to the skills and their interactions; the basics of your character shouldn't be impenetrably difficult to understand. Skyy High 18:47, 30 August 2010 (UTC)


 * ""As far as I see it, its only an extra, invisible bar, behind your energy that makes the system a little more dynamic."
 * Yeah, that's the problem. Specifically, the "invisible bar" part. It's just not an intuitive system, it's difficult to visualize the effects before they happen (particularly after a couple of casts and dodges, you look back at your bar 10 seconds later and go "wth why aren't I recharging?"). It's moment-to-moment energy management, because everything you do instantly affects your performance, which is (as I said in my first comment here) the antithesis of what they're looking for in an energy management system."


 * I've not read that statement anywhere, that they are trying to keep the energy system "simple." I have read that they are trying to make it a long term recourse, they have also said that because the energy bar is longer, it makes energy management non existent.  They did not state that that was their intention.  As for intuitive or not, I start to see your logic.  I could counter by saying, then just make the regeneration visually apparent.  That problem is solved.


 * "The other system you referenced with two bars - one that fills slowly and one that fills quickly - is much, much more simple, because the two bars fill at constant rates. The fast-filling bar is clearly what you "should" be using, and if you start dipping into the slow-filling bar it's easily identified as a "bad thing"; ie, you're using energy faster than you should be, the fight is sapping you, you're going to need to rest afterwards, etc. Your system has one invisible bar, and one visible one that recharges at a variable rate. What makes for a good rate? Can a player tell at a glance exactly at what energy level and regeneration level they're "in trouble"? The fact that I can't theorycraft this (whereas I certainly can theorycraft how the other system "should" play in practice) tells me that the other system is intuitive, and this is not. Sorry, I'm just not seeing it working out."


 * The other system is also not changing anything. You essentially have an energy bar that recharges quickly, and when you need more, you take it from the other bar.  The bar with the longest recharge then inherently becomes your real recharge, since there is no barrier to refreshing one bar with the other.  If the recharge is too fast in the first bar, then there is no need for the reserve.  If the recharge is too slow in the first bar, then a player has to either "wait a few seconds" to use a skill, to keep the first bar filled, or dip into their reserve.  With no impediment to "dipping into" their reserve, then the reserve's recharge rate becomes their active recharge rate *at all times*.


 * And as a warning, be careful what arguments you use, because quite a bit of what you say about the energy reserve system are criticisms you tried to sling at me earlier. "Having down time" is one of yours.  An example directly from the energy reserve page is that players, when they run out of reserve, have to moderate their energy usage.  That is something you criticized me about in an earlier post, yet don't find a problem with in the other system.


 * And about what regeneration level is adequate? Well, that would require testing and balancing.  The same stuff that goes into skill balance, or how much it costs to dodge.  The same kind of thinking that goes into the entire game.  The same kind of thinking and testing you would need to balance the energy reserve.  And how does someone know when they are in "trouble"?  When they start getting low on energy... same with the current system, same with energy reserve.  If that wasn't obvious, then you are overthinking it.


 * "If you need further evidence: "For people who aren't skilled enough, as far as they know or care, they have an energy bar that acts kinda weird, but still functions very well." That's bad. Very bad. Energy that regenerates at a constant rate is an obvious thing, and it SHOULD be obvious; it is, as I said, the second most important number in the game. If a casual player can't even figure out what governs the rate that they can use skills, the energy bar wouldn't become something they would learn to manage, it'd be a nuisance that occasionally gets them killed because they didn't know how to utilize it. Keep the higher-level systems to the skills and their interactions; the basics of your character shouldn't be impenetrably difficult to understand."


 * Then let me put it a different way. For people with less experience, they observe their energy bar rapidly refilling on short fights.  In long fights, they get low, and realize after the fight their energy is refilling more slowly.  They continue to watch, and realize that it begins refilling more quickly as time goes by.  The only problem comes in the leap of logic that connects recharge to skill use.  THAT would require a visual queue, then, so people could identify it quickly in combat.  (no, not a second bar, so don't go there.  And even if you do, V.E.R. is still more flexible than E.R. in that there is a direct variation in the recharge rate, and it is something players can effect to their own benefit.  There is no potential for that in E.R.)


 * I am noticing you are not the kind of person to really put your mind into this. Either you are unwilling, or you don't understand the kind of feedback I am looking for, and what kind of input that would require from you.  You seem accept the energy reserve system largely because it is simple on the surface.  Two bars, one fast, one slow.  However, as I have demonstrated, logically it does not function as perfectly as you seem to think it will.  As well, You seem averse to my system solely because it is more technical, and therefor requires more mental investment to understand.  Until you can demonstrate that you are taking this at a more serious level, iI respectfully ignore any further input from you.  Kindly do not respond here until you have such a response.


 * As far as I am concerned, the system speaks for itself, as long as you are willing to invest enough thought into understanding it. Psyko 22:36, 30 August 2010 (UTC)