User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Underpowered Skills/Elementalist/Archive 3

To be honest, I think Chain Lightning was really the true "PvP AoE" in terms of effectiveness - it was nerfed early down the line given rampant HA abuse, but I almost wonder if it'd be worth bringing back now to its previous state given the way the game has evolved. (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 20:43, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Make it hit 5 targets! :D --TimeToGetIntense 20:53, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * There's no reason why Chain Lightning shouldn't have a 2 second cast, but the damage should stay where it was. Spiking three people at once (Invoke) is still pretty nasty. -Ensign 23:26, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That's more what I was referring to, in regards to the cast time. It might be interesting, however, if it were tweaked such that the damage scales downwards for each jump after the first, and potentially remove the exhaustion. That's the real limiting factor to it at the moment, I'd say - since it's less useful as a spike tool, and the exhaustion prevents it from really being a DPS tool, it's not utilized currently. [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 23:34, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Chain Lightning would have to be changed to hit more targets more often for a little less damage to really be able to force people out of Wards I think. --TimeToGetIntense 00:22, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * , reduce recharge to 6 seconds, eliminate exhaustion, and deal 75% damage to second target and 50% damage to third target? (Edit: and possibly a 4th target for 25% damage?) [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 00:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd love to see Chain Lightning actually become a viable AOE alternative for air, and i think reduced damage to secondary targets is a good way to do it (isn't it the way Chain Lightning works in every other game too?). Now that Invoke is there to have the elite option of what CL used to be, a Chain Lightning of something like 10/2/7, no exhaustion, with damage like you Aiiane said, would be an interesting skill on your bar. Would give air a little better pressure option. Patccmoi 00:56, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * imo is exhaustion the biggest problem, I would like to see 5 sec longer recharge but no exhaustion --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:80.133.72.86.
 * That'd make it too close to Invoke Lightning. –Ichigo724 12:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * maybe, however right know its only usable every ~30 seconds

(reset indent) I think all agree that this skill is a bit on the weak side by now. The days of "air supremacy" are long ago, and Searing Flames beats Chain Lightning spikes easily. 3 seconds is too much. Not even most necro spells take so long to cast. 2 is already enough to prevent abuse and still long enough for an interrupt. If nothing should be changed, at least the cast time should be reduced to two seconds. --Longasc 22:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC) Chain Lightning... I remember what it ruled supreme (it used to have the exact same stats as Invoke lightning except it was in the AREA). Anyway, I think this skill should be changed to give it more use. ''Target foe and up to two other foes near your target are struck for 5...41...50 lightning damage. This Spell has 25% armor penetration.'' Change the damage to lightning strike level, remove the exhaustion, decrease the recharge slightly (8s?). Makes it a little nicer at least. Maestro Ed 00:26, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I see no reason why this skill should't have 2 seconds cast time.
 * Given Air has so few decent damage skills, and since this skill is so similar to Deathly Swarm except for being weaker in damage and causing unnecessary exhaustion with a far to long recharge, I think if you simply removed the Exhaustion and Armor Penetration you could drop it down to a 10 - 2 - 5 or even a 10 - 3 - 3 like Deathly Swarm only with a little less damage than Deathly Swarm, but it would still make the skill appealing for use in both PvP and PvE. That way you can leave the Elite version just the way it is, with no need to change it, as it would still have greater damage and bonuses compared to this skill.  ~  [[Image:UserJKougar sig.gif|User:J.Kougar]]  J.Kougar  22:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Deadly Swarm has 5 more damage........ and doesn't have 25% armor penetration, which is far more damage. Beside that, Deadly Swarm is a slow release spell.  I don't agree with the cost here, exhaustion is way to expensive, but I think exhaustion needs looking at.--BahamutKaiser 03:22, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * ...and like I said, if the penetration was removed to balance the damage then the exhaustion could be removed too, and the spell would be useful. :)  ~  [[Image:UserJKougar sig.gif|User:J.Kougar]]  J.Kougar  03:57, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Elementist lightning skills are naturally armor penetrating, it shouldn't change just so we can duck exhaustion.--BahamutKaiser 04:32, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "Hold on I'm casting Chain Lightning.. damn I got interrupted now I'm suffering from exhaustion." I really think cast time should be reduced on this. 87.189.249.97 16:56, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Castingtime is way to long for a lot of direct damage spells, especially in the lightning branch. Actually i would go so far as to be interested in how it plays out when castingtimes of all direct damage spells get halved, rounded up. So 1->1, 2->1, 3->2... That way spell damage would still have much more energy and recast issues than melee damage but at least it would do more damage too. Would be interesting to see if that would be enough to get rid of the current melee dmg vs passive block meta. Beetlejuice 14:05, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * If you presume 25% armor penetration, 60 armor target 106 damage is around 130-140 or so damage on 3 targets in nearby range. This becomes more likely now that cracked armor comes into play (min armor 60). Then you look at Rodgort's Invocation...which needs 25 energy. Chain lightning needs restrictions like exhaustion to keep Invoke and Lightning Hammer (25 energy) from being underpowered, seeing how it's in a single target damage line. However, 3 second cast makes it unplayable in PvP since a monkey with a Longbow could interrupt that. At most it could use a bump back down to 2 cast time.--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 01:18, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

This skill used to be amazing, then a couple of nerfs hit it and it sank to horrible. My advice is to make a balance by increasing the recharge to 10 seconds and make the KD 3 seconds again. That way, its not overpowered, it cant be spammed as easily, and if you do try to spam it you still have exhaustion to deal with.--John deathblade 20:19, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Then what happens to Gust? [[Image:User GD Defender sig.png]] 20:23, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It remains crap like it already is. --Deathwing 20:46, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Unfortinately Deathwing is right. Gust is horrible atm and unless a serious change happens to it then it wont become any better.  Buffing gale wont hurt gust much at this point.--John deathblade 20:56, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The more I look at the post-Gale meta, the more I miss the 3 second Gale. It really was a cornerstone of high-level balance whose utility increased with player skill.  I think that a 3 second Gale, on a 15 second or similar recharge, would do a lot of good things for the game. -Ensign 10:11, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, I never understood why the KD time was nerfed instead of just increasing the recharge. --Draikin 17:26, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * A lower recharge allows Gale to be used more often in utility situations where an offensive/defensive opportunity exists such that if you cast Gale another time, you could get/prevent a kill. Or, in the case when it was 5e, 5r, it could be spammed as a lockdown skill. With reduction of kd length you can still use it defensively but offensive power has been reduced a huge amount. Gale causes exhaustion so if you use it too much within some time frame you're going to be suffering from an inability to cast effectively during later. The game has been depreciating in player ability-linked skills since the onset of Nightfall. I also don't really see why Gale was reduced to a 2s kd other than the fact that "only warriors should get kds longer than 2s," which would also undermine Gust. But that doesn't matter, since Gust is never used. --Miranzor 19:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I felt Izzy overdid it when he made it 2s kd. Simply reverting it to 5e won't work either, since Warriors will start abusing it again with Stonefist Insignia. So maybe just make it 5e cost, cause Exhaustion, same recharge, same casting time, maximum kd time of 2 seconds. Saph 16:29, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The KD time of 2s is what is being discussed here. The one second matters so much that it's not even funny. Take Backbreaker as an example here: if you ask a warrior how long it KDs, they'll say "four seconds." Ask a monk how long Backbreaker KDs, and you get a different answer: "I'm dead." Ask the same monk how long Devastating Hammer is and you get "three seconds." That one second feels like five years because you can't do ANYTHING; you're removed from the game. If you're a warrior, Gale means you missed the spike, but if you're a monk, somebody just died. A three second Gale is huge 50% more shutdown/snare than a two second Gale. Backbreaker is "only" 33% more than DHammer but that 33% extra shutdown leaves a lot of monks dead. The 10e cost and 1s cast time are balanced such that you can't Gale 1s spells through reflex and warriors have limited use for 10e skills. The kd time is the focus here and people see lengthening the cooldown as a variable to achieve the means of a longer KD which would allow Gale to return to its offensively devastating state.--Miranzor 18:02, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Imo a 3 second knockdown with a 12 second recharge is the solution. -Void 15:15, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There's really no reason to have such a powerful KD with such low spec to it. I don't see the skill required or displayed by completely shutting down a character for 3 seconds. Also, an important function of gale is its ability to interrupt things and snare lock things. As such, the only thing I'd suggest is a 3/4 sec. cast, but other than that, I think gale is perfectly balanced. Learn to shut down chars in ways other than KDs. KDs are completely debilitating and require less skill than say, a well placed diversion, etc.
 * Though Diversion isn't even half as good as the old Gale was, i wouldn't mind if Gale stays at 2 seconds; it's still an okay skill. But Izzy should at least change the description to "Target foe is knocked down." -Void 12:12, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's still an ok skill as a 2s knockdown; it isn't like Air is forcing any hard choices on us with a bunch of amazing skills to choose from so you might as well take it. A 3s knockdown has so much more utility than a 2s knockdown though that it's barely even comparable, especially when this has a 1s cast that keeps you from gaining any sort of time advantage on your target.  The problem with the old Gale was the conflict between 'exhaustion skills want low recharges' and 'knockdown skills want long recharges' - the former won out when the latter should.  If it were to go back to a 3s knockdown the req could easily go up a bit so that it wouldn't be such a trivial splash. -Ensign 00:41, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Req 8 or even 7 would definetly keep it off Mesmers. If I recall a big problem was Gale -> Blackout -> Gale, right? Just to throw this out there, would removing aftercast from this spell fix the time advantage issue? --TimeToGetIntense 01:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No. The big problem was Gale-lock, and a mesmers uncanny ability to spam b-surge. Readem   Promote My Ban Here  06:10, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Is someone having a problem with this skill? Because a ranged knockdown seems like a useful skill to me, sounds like an issue of withdraws, not imbalance.--BahamutKaiser 21:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * How about have the KD duration scale like 2...2...3 so it hits 3 seconds at 13 Air Magic? --TimeToGetIntense 10:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd like it to be 10e .25s 8r so I can use it as an interrupt in a pinch. But a 3sec KD is cool too.  --Symbol 01:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I miss Gale's 3 second KD too, but chaining it was FAR too easy. Two players could easiy chain gale a target.  There are ways to bring it back but NOT have it chain.


 * Gale (hex spell). 10 energy, 1 cast time, 5 recharge. If target foe is not hexed with gale, target foe is knocked down for 3 seconds.  For 4 seconds target foe is hexed with Gale.  This spell causes Exhaustion. (50% failure chance with Air Magic 4 or less.)


 * Would that work? Gives back 3 second Gale, still fast recharge, but can't be chained. --Epinephrine 21:55, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Or Gust's current status could be swapped: 3 seconds knockdown and conditional damage, instead of damage and conditional knockdown like it is now. An elite version of gale seems more appropiate to me. Gale as it is now is already easy to use, 3 seconds is a little over the top for an easy to use, ranged, non-elite if you ask me...but nobody does, so I'll just shut up now. Nicky Silverstar 22:57, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the idea of an 8 second recharge Gale with a 3 second KD is good. This makes it impossible to lock someone with 2 people. You could chain it for 6 seconds at a time, but you'd always have that gap. --TimeToGetIntense 12:17, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Compared to the hands-down favorite Storm Djinn's Haste, Windborne Speed seems... really lame. Storm Djinns lasts twice as long, casts instantly, takes half as much energy, and the drawback isn't really a concern. Windborne's only "saving grace", as it were, is the ability to target someone else with it; but seeing as a flagger would rarely target anyone but himself with it, that saving grace amounts to nothing. Any way to bring windborne speed back into the game? I'm thinking 5e/1.4c/10r for windborne, but keep the duration shorter to account for the ability to target others with it. It still might not replace storm djinns on runner bars because of length, but it'd provide a decent alternative if someone didn't like the -1e per second. - Auron 04:14, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll assume you mean 1/4c instead of 1.4c. :P But if you ask me, the target ally thing isn't enough to completely justify the current duration; perhaps 5..13..15? (The value for 12 can be messed with all you want, I really prefer the 0..15 way of stating things...) Armond 14:13, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps this could be booster to 50%? Only two other skills give that kind of boost, and the energy cost and duration of this skill might suit that big speed increase. Maestro Ed 13:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This is an ok skill, leave it. 50% faster that can effect other allies with tTHAT duration? What are you on? --72.74.237.104 05:16, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd give it a 2 second duration buff to duration. Even with such a buff, this will rarely see use as people favor easier to use/longer lasting skills. --Tensei 14:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Windborne would actually be a great utility to fit on BSurgers with more interesting stats. 10E is fine for the effect, the main thing you'd want here is faster cast and slightly longer duration. 10/.75/5, 6..12 duration would be really better. Seriously we used it before on warriors and it's pretty threatening. A warrior in Frenzy running at 33% faster speed is really scary Patccmoi 15:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. Slightly shorter cast time would work wonders and so would a longer duration. --TimeToGetIntense 01:44, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Thirds on low cast time and higher duration.--BahamutKaiser 00:43, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Another option. "For 7...17 seconds, target ally and all allies adjacent to your target move 33% faster.  If more than one ally is affected, the duration of this enchantment is reduced by 20%." --Reklaw 23:39, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed on longer duration and quicker cast time. --Rururrur 06:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * When you look at Hasty Refrain (which gives energy return and can be reapplied), Fall Back, Make Haste it is clear that Windborne needs a buff (especially since unlike shouts it is removable. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 20:50, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

10e 1/4c 1r, decrease duration imo Cakey 00:57, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * definitely needs shorter cast time. 1/4second would be nice.--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 01:27, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

It's still underpowered. Sure, it's technically superior to Lightning Strike because it does more for only a second longer recharge, but it's worse in the end. It forces you to tinker with attribute points and skill slots to make that Water Magic hex condition work. I just had an idea. Instead of having it hit a random nearby foe for more damage, just make it bounce to an adjacent foe each time it hits a foe that is suffering from a Water Magic hex? The recharge can then be upped, and maybe people might use Air Magic and Water Magic in PvE more. --Heelz 05:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem really isn't the Water Magic Hex conditional by itself, it's the conditional of the AoE that puts it over the top. Most of the time even if you satisfy the hex condition, there's nobody around so it's still just a bad copy of Lightning Strike. If it always had an additional effect on the target, I might consider it. For example: "If target foe is suffering from a Water Magic Hex, that foe and all nearby foes are struck for an additional 5..35 lightning damage" --Mysterial 01:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a weaker version of Lightning Strike with a klunky condition. Lightning Strike is bad.  What else is there to say? -Ensign 22:32, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * In order for dual elemental skills like this to be played you must compensate people for having to take attributes points off air magic (less damage) to put it into water magic. I suggest increasing unconditional and conditional damage across all attributes. ATM there is no incentive for people to take this skill compared to putting all attributes into air to do more heavy damage with direct unconditional attacks. --Shadetz X 10:00, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * suggestion: change "suffering from a Water Magic Hex" to "suffering from a Hex" 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I like the last suggestion, another would be for the conditional damage to be major, like up to 100 damage, the target gets zipped, but doing it under the condition causes a random bang.--BahamutKaiser 00:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Until this looks like a conditional version of Chain Lightning (with the damage) it's just not going to be attractive. Hell, up the cost to 10e if you like and make the Chain Lighting class 3 digit damage as conditional as the 'strikes up to 2 additional foes'. It would still be far better. Dual spec Air guys with choice hexes like Freezing Gust, Blurred, or even Icy Shackles would be attractive then. In fact more tools like this that are really strong when going Dual spec would encourage more of this type of play in general. The current options are just too weak. Fro 20:28, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * what's stopping them from making this an actual ARC? (up to 3 adjacent foes ala splinter weapon)...dual speccing should stop this from being overpowered for the most part and conditional 40-60 damage in adjacent range isn't even good.--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 01:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Can we have some armour penetration here please? --Ckal Ktak 11:21, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A knockdown skill that recharges in 10 seconds without exhaustion that can deal around 100 damage is not underpowered. --Shadetz X 02:45, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's removable if your monk has any sort of reflexes and it's not at all time-able for interrupting something. Organizing a spike around it would also be obvious as the defender has two seconds to hit PS/SB/Return/Dark Escape/SoD/Escape/Weapon of Warding/Natural Stride/etc.  Not worth 15 energy either imo, at least for the time being.  Can we get a one second cast or one second duration? [[Image:User GD Defender sig.png]]| GD Defender  /  contribs 06:45, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A monk isn't going to waste a hex removal on this, it is easier to just heal afterwards. --Deathwing 15:28, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm using Spirit Bond on myself! Saph 15:35, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What about making it deal damage even if it's ended prematurely? -- Gordon Ecker 19:34, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 'Elite Hex Spell. After 3 seconds, target foe is knocked down and struck for 14...83...100 lightning damage. If this hex ends prematurely, that foe is knocked down.' Something like that? Meh, still seems useless. Saph 20:09, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's hardly worth removing, just cast a preprot. --Deathwing 19:40, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Not underpowered, end of story. --68.106.221.5 20:13, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * ... thanks for that useless comment. People don't run this for a reason: its uselessness. And as it is, Shatterstone outclasses this skill. If I could pick between 200-280 damage, and 80-100 damage + a kd, I know what to pick, especially when the first option also has utility in its attribute line. Saph 21:45, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I laughed at saying Air Magic doesn't have utility. --Deathwing 12:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Blinding Flash would be too energy heavy on a bar that already has Lsurge. Bsurge is an elite too, no go. Enervating Charge? Hah, weaken your opponents for 3 seconds (and it doesn't even stop armor ignoring damage). Maybe Shellshock could change it a bit, but still... Maybe I should rephrase: Water Magic > Air Magic, if you're using Lightning Surge on your destined-to-fail bar. Saph 19:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Mind Shock is much stronger at doing the same thing. Not a big deal though, doesn't need a buff. --TimeToGetIntense 20:36, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * All I wanted was the armour penetration that seemed to have been missed from this skill. --Ckal Ktak 12:07, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, the original remark was simple, armor penetration belongs on this, otherwise it is a Rit spell.--BahamutKaiser 00:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that would be ok, maybe lower the damage a bit to compensate if it would be overpowered otherwise. Nicky Silverstar 07:57, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Not for an Elite hex which can be removed and do no damage.--BahamutKaiser 03:47, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

25% armor penetration please --Rururrur 06:03, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem isn't a lack of power on the skill, it's just the obvious delay on activation. Make the damage happen before the Hex takes effect makes it a nice enough spike support skill. Akirai Annuvil 15:37, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Shatterstone > Lightning Surge, Statterstone will also trigger the second hit even if removed ,this one needs 25% armor pent <_< - Bah forgot to log in >_> Aljazya 13:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC) 13:15, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Unconditional Knockdown is pretty powerful...while I think armor penetration belongs on this, I'd say a damage nerf should be applied as well if it is given armor penetration. a 15-25% damage reduction would be good to balance the 25% armor penetration. (such as 12...71...85 damage instead of 14...83...100 at 15% reduction or 11...62...75) --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 01:29, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * How about 75% armor penetraiton? THAT woulşd make it a game breaker :D 85.107.161.108 20:51, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It is not an unconditional knockdown. If it is removed, it does nothing. Maybe LS, then Gale would be something that would work.

Hmm..."For 1...13...16 seconds, whenever target foe suffers lightning damage, that foe and all adjacent foes suffer from Blindness for 5 seconds. (10 Energy, 2 Activation time, 5 Recharge time)". That doesn't seem elementalist like because the effect happens to be conditional on lightning damage. By the time this goes off, you're either A. d-shotted, B. power leaked C. disrupting chop-ed/agonizing chop-ed/distracting strike-d since in those 2 seconds they ran up to you and are in your face. This has a weakness of being removed by hex removal as well. Maybe: "Elite Hex spell: Target foe and all adjacent foes suffer from Blindness for 3...9...10 seconds. For 15 seconds, target foe takes 25...45...50% more Lightning damage. (10 Energy, 1 Activation time, 5 Recharge time)" This would make it more active, a damage buff akin to asuran scan, and less d-shot bait. In essence, it is a non-conditional Blinding Surge with no damage. Alternately, the functionality could be tweaked more conservatively ..."Target foe is blinded for 1...4...5 seconds. For 1...13...16 seconds, whenever target foe suffers lightning damage, that foe and all adjacent foes suffer from Blindness for 1...4...5 seconds. (10 Energy, 2 Activation time, 5 Recharge time)". Basically a mini-Blinding Flash added to the current functionality to account for the 2 activation time and time to cast another spell or wand the target. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 18:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

broken mechanic. Maybe "Hex. Target foe and all adjacent foes are struck for 10...50...60 lightning damage and hexed with Thunderclap for 8...18...20 seconds. While under the effects of this hex, they cannot use shouts or chants. This skill has 25% armor penetration. 10energy/1cast/8recharge" --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 17:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Most definitely not. We don't need another worthless anti-shout skill, and making it work in that fashion would be even worse than the current method.  This skill works fine as it is, it's just not terribly efficient.  --Reklaw 23:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It does not work fine as it is. It needs to not cause energy loss if the foe isn't knocked down, nor knock him down if he's already knocked down. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 09:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You correct that by using your skills (or weapon) to cause shock damage to your target at regular enough intervals to cause the KD while losing minimal energy. You'll notice RA players sometimes using a shocking shortbow to do this.  It basically will keep a monk on the ground for a good 10 seconds, although it doesn't actually cause any real damage.  It's just incredibly annoying.  Thunderclap is just a bad skill.  If you buffed it, it would be massively imbalanced.  The only thing you can do to it is change its functionality.  --Reklaw 23:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

This is just ridiculous.Lightning Orb = 100dmg, 25%AP, but Fireball = 126dmg + AoE. I think that this needs a buff 2 give it AoE, then it wouldn't b underpowered 2 fire magic.--Sum Mesmer Guy 09:22, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

/
Seems like I'm the only one who was mad about the armor stacking nerf for these skills in particular. You really killed what life these skills even had. I used to stack these two skill and bring Greater Conflagration on a hero in hard mode for high damage reduction, which would be great if heroes learned to stay in wards. These skills were already weak, but at least they could be used this way, now they can't. Ward Against Harm is already pretty weak and forgotten. It needs a change to make it more useful and worthy of elite status. I suggest converting the armor into the equivalent percent damage reduction. That way it can still be stacked with WAE, which then wouldn't need to be changed. Plus, it might then work against armor ignoring damage and damage from attack skills. In any case, I think you know, Izzy, that you guys have forgotten about these skills and that they need help. =P --Heelz 22:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe turn them into damage reduction instead of armour? Maestro Ed 15:25, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Couple of words here that should never be in balance discussions: hard mode, hero, and possibly greater conflagration. --72.211.155.160 20:53, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, because as long as skills never work in PvP, then they are balanced, who cares if they work in PvE. --Deathwing 21:04, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think +armor is more desirable vs elemental damage. The elemental damage you care about comes in large packets.  If you wanted a different method you would have to reduce elemental damage by a percent.  Also why is ward against elements 15e?  It is weaker than ward against melee. -Warskull 03:52, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Both of these could benefit from a reduction in cost to 5 energy. It would be more of a "look at me" change, but a welcome one.--Skye Marin 15:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Because widespread armor is pretty prevalent, and Elemental Damage should be more powerful, both need some redevelopement. Ward Against Harm could be changed to offer the same universal armor, and reduce Fire Damage by 75%, wile Ward Against Elements should reduce elemental damage by 20 damage.  This would make both very effective at blocking out DoT damage especially, and they could be stacked.


 * I really think these are very important skills in the redevelopement of AoE and DoT damage. I think the begining of rectifying many flaws in gameplay tactics revolve around having good AoE spread and frequency in order to force location control and positioning into greater significance, and oppose Paragon shouts, chants and Leadership advantages so both can compete with eachother instead of suppress themselves.  Being able to defend yourself against AoE and particularly DoT damage with Ward Against Elements and Ward Against Harm are a signicant part of balancing that.--BahamutKaiser 22:33, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Personally I believe all AoE really grants you is time. Anyone not a Stand Your Ground! Paragon is going to move out of the AoE. While they move, they can't do anything. It's essentially another way of looking at the area control you mention. However the time casting the thing and the down-time, don't add up to the window of opportunity you get by forcing people to move.
 * Sure you can potentially catch and force more than one target to move improving the pay-off exponentially, but this is rare enough of an occurrence to right it off (especially at adjacent range). To add insult to injury, The damage dealt will probably just get dealt with by the next LoD, if you even manage to get the 2 second cast off in the first place... Fro 19:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well this is about the defensive wards that should be developed to counteract good DoT damage and elemental AoE. If these are developed to prevent and greatly reduce AoE damage, they can be used to counteract the power of DoT spells once they are improved.  DoT spells like FireStorm and Breath of Fire, really all of them need nearly back to back use, and nearby to area effect damage.  This forces people to give up their location, spread apart, lose time moving around.  Done well, it can offer what is basically a Ward which does damage, an unremovable spray of damage over a location.


 * DoTs and AoE superiority have the power to make Paragon group survival a risky tactic as well as a benifit, it allows both to counteract eachother in damage. It also provides opposition to large group heals like LoD, with heavy DoT spread on several units, group healing will become a stronger neccessity and not an indiscriminate advantage.  It pushes players to bring strong group support skills to face an equal amount of AoE preasure, or move around and counter Elementist to ensure they do not decimate a whole group.


 * The important thing here is that a good elemental AoE and DoT counter needs to be effective enough to offer haven from these effects, that way even if a party is using highly defensive techniques, they are relying on a mix of defensive skills from several professions instead of relying simply on Watch Yourself and Stand Your Ground to simply ride out a DoT for 5 or 10 seconds on the 1-3 people who are actually caught in it. With reduced elemental damage offered from Ward Against Elements, a combination of WAE and additional armor or any number of armor boosts can completely counteract DoT, wile exclusion of any group defense skills will make it very difficult to advance into that kind of preasure.


 * If a player prepares for elemental damage with Ward Against Elements, it should not be something that is totally eclipsed by WY or SYG, or any other group defensive abilities, 20 damage reduction ensures anything under 40 in elemental damage is probably going to be wiped out or make little impact on most targets, and allows DoT application, and promotes the acceptance of higher DoT output in response.--BahamutKaiser 20:53, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You see, why bother slotting things like this if you can just move? The only environment I can see these wards being good to take is if AoE DoT effectiveness explodes like physical damage has done over the life of Guild Wars (which is eluded to by the guys on Guru as generally the cause of the 'Blockway' and VoD sensation). If this happens it will probably be detrimental to the game.
 * Besides, these wards will never be as good as those chants/shouts as they are counter-intuitive to this task in their basic design. Wards force you to remain inside them to be effective. AoE DoT wants you to do the same so it can be fully effective also.Fro 22:35, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I find Ward Against Harm to be quite effective against the Meteor Shower spike that the heroes+hench like to stand in in the Charr Homeland. --Deathwing 22:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It's very powerful, againt fire damage, it just isn't as powerful as it used to be, and more importantly, it doesnt stack with Ward Against Elements or any other armor ability. Really, it's just Ward Against Elements that needs the change, if ward against harm doesn't change it will probably be fine, but having armor vs elements only which doesn't stack with easier abilities like armor against everything which sticks to allies instead of on a location, it's supremely outclassed. With the current armor cap, bringing ward against elements is truely worthless, damage reduction would make a more effective impact.--BahamutKaiser 03:02, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Needs a flat % reduction like They're On Fire or There's Nothing to Fear. Unlike those, wards are locational.--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 00:52, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Ward against elements: 10e/1/4s/30+r For 3 seconds everyone inside the ward is immune against elemental damage/takes only 10% of their max life as damage. Basically turn it into an alternative to PS against elemental damage.
 * Whose retarded idea was it to make this elite anti-fire anyway? You'd have to have a ranger bringing Greater Conflag just to make use of it.
 * "Elite Ward Spell. Create a Ward Against Harm at this location. For 8...18...20 seconds, non-Spirit allies in this area have 12...50...60 armor againt elemental damage and have a 1...12...16% chance to block physical attacks."
 * The main problem with this skill, aside from the asinine idea of it being a solution to Searing Flames, is that it's only an armor skill. Aegis is about five times more effective than this waste of a skill slot. --Reklaw 22:23, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Apart from Elementalists and Rangers, no class has innate high armor to Earth damage. In the same attribute line you have Armor of earth and speccing into water gives you access to frigid armor + access to Conjure Frost. I guess you could use this with Ebon Dust Aura but why invest so much in earth magic (9+ to maintain) unless you want to change your (spell) damage to earth damage. It doesn't help as a cover enchantment either since it is 20 recharge. In other words, it would be nice to have a mantra-level of duration (30...78...90 ) so you don't need to put so much in just to change your damage to earth damage, since earth elementalists aren't going to be the ones wanting to convert their damage to earth damage. ANother possibility is lowering the recharge to 5 or 10. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 00:38, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Most of this sounds very sensible, but I prefer Stone Sheath being altered first. At least this skill has SOME uses, Stone Sheath has none. Nicky Silverstar 09:00, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * This is mostly used for farming right now (with Mantra of Earth)...which is gimmick at best. The other thing it is useful for is Ring of Fire and against Charr/Destroyers when Fire damage is horrible. Maybe for +20 armor against physical if you're wearing Geomancer's insignias as well. Really though, it has so much potential as a cover enchantment due to 1/4 cast time (ala Mystic Regen) but it needs lower recharge (5-10seconds). Armor of Earth isn't viable in PvP simply because of the speed debuff and likewise I fail to see why you would spec that high in Earth in PvP for stone striker to be maintainable. The only times I see earth in PvP is when people run Wards on 8-9 spec (seldom now due to Ward against melee being 15 energy and armor stack nerf) or when they are running sandstorm (prenerf) or obsidian flesh gimmicks (AB/RA/TA). --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 01:04, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * What is so bad about gimmicks? As a matter of fact, why is every build that specializes in Earth Magic gimmicky? Just because it is not a metagame build? Nicky Silverstar 08:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Gimmicks allow players with little skill to beat most other players. That should never happen. Not every Earth Magic build is gimmicky, just the "good" ones (which I say hesitantly, because gimmicks are generally beaten by good players with utility) because the rest of the line sucks. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 08:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your explanation. Nicky Silverstar 12:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The damage is decent, but the conditional blind is too conditional. Knockdown status is something very costly in GW. Using it just to apply a blind is way not worth it. This skill need more than just number changing to bring it out of the useless zone. Lightblade 06:27, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
 * My opnion is: I think I would bring it if it did reasonable damage to Warriors, so blindness while knocked down could be viewed as a bonus instead of a must have or the skill is wasted effect. As with Glowstone, Ebon Hawk and Stoning, it does mediocore damage (actually, little damage against the targets they were meant to be used against) and is only be worth the effort if the blindness gets applied. If it needs it's condition applied to be useful, then it simply isn't worth it. Making it armor ignoring however, would certainly fix it, because then it would be worth using on a warrior, wheter he gets blinded or not. Nicky Silverstar 10:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Armor ignoring would be nice...considering hard mode means the warrior and ranger mobs that are level 28-30 take about 1/3 or 1/2 of normal damage. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 18:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

A part of me thinks that these skills were to discourage people from PUGing. Basically it is bulk condition removal for the enemy team. A removal of the condition removal would be nice. Then again who uses PBAOEs...? (Balthazar's Rage/Zealous Renewal/etc. are cheaper for armor ignoring damage)--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 18:26, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

This is probably the worst skill for earth elementalists. Except for degen, life steal, lightning damage, everything is negated. Mind you, this is in the earth magic line so you'd be investing in an attribute and then not be able to use any of the skills to do damage. It could probably be changed to something like "For 3...13...15 seconds, target foe moves 50% slower and takes 10 damage per second while moving if under an elementalist hex. (10 energy, 2 cast...interrupt bait, 30 recharge)" I'd reserve 90% slower to Water magic. I thought about saying 33% but Siphon speed is already got 33% covered and 50% is generally for earth magic (Grasping earth, ward against foes...even Obsidian flesh or armor of earth on 0 earth magic). --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 18:26, 2 February 2008 (UTC) --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 18:26, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Or maybe give earth magic a reliable weakness inducer: "For 3....8..13 seconds target moves 15% slower and suffers from weakness for 3...8..13 seconds. (5 energy,1 cast, 6 recharge)" Basically an elementalist sum of all fears. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 18:33, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You're wrong, Stone Sheath is the worst skill for Earth Elementalists. If that skill would be altered to cause weakness a la Enervating Charge, it would never leave my skill bar. But apperantly, the skill does something important so it cannot be changed. This however...can actually be used for omething, if your team prepares for it. Or you could use it to snare something you're not going to attack yet. I agree that Earth has some very impractical skills though, and this is not exception. Nicky Silverstar 07:59, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any reason why an elementalist will take these elites over other elite and non-elite energy management skills, especially Glyth of Lesser Energy. --Shadetz X 07:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with you about Energy Boon. As for Glyph of Energy, it's already being discussed higher up on the page. -- Gordon Ecker 09:24, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Since Glyth of Energy is already posted I will take it off.--Shadetz X 09:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * exhaustion makes too many skills completely useless. 80.133.77.143 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 15 energy at the cost of exhaustion, that's stupid, lose 10 energy for 4 times as long for 15 energy, don't worry about the 15 second recharge, you will sabatoge your energy pool fast enough. It would have to give back 30 energy for me to deal with exhaustion, the whole exhaustion deal needs to be redeveloped, all the skills which it influence are overcharged.--BahamutKaiser 23:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that if the exhaustion was removed, and then maybe the recharge was raised to 20 seconds, it would be way more balanced that it is now. The exhaustion completely kills a skill that isn't overpowered even without it. Nicky Silverstar 08:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * This skill is just bad. In fact it is so bad it is worse than nonelite options. Elite energy management is bad unless it does something spectacular (ala Mind Blast's +5 energy every 2 seconds with no enchantment reliance or ele attune's 50% reduction in all elementalist spells). There's no reason to spec energy storage that high to get more than around 18 energy from this skill (net of ~13 energy)... Let's say that you spam this skill on recharge, that's 10 exhaustion every 15 seconds... that's almost as bad as spamming Obsidian Flame. Keep in mind exhaustion expires in 30 seconds meaning this nets you a permanent exhaustion if you use it on recharge. It needs the exhaustion removed and then it might hold a candle to Offering of Spirit (which is in a line that is actually useful). A typical elementalist will gain ~17-18 energy every 15 seconds then which is inline with Glyph of Lesser Energy on 15+ energy skills or Power Drain (+8 on 8 inspiration) /Leech Signet with a decent inspiration Magic.--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 20:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Bad for a number of reasons: it can't be maintained (25 seconds duration would remedy this since you can bring an enchanting mod). It counts skills, which means Res sig and NONSPELLS (non-magic) trigger it. I thought the name was Master of Magic, not Master of long recharging non-spell skills. Another problem is the flat energy gain. It promotes 5 energy skill spam (example: MoM smiters back in the day) and odd attribute splits. It's bugged as well since apparently PvE skills count as nonlinked. I think a worthwhile adjustment would be to count only spells (why signets count I have no idea) for recharging skills. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 21:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I just did some calculations...Ele attunement beats this so bad once you use anything more than 10 energy and since they are both enchantments there's no reason to run Master of Magic instead. For Master of Magic to be worthwhile you basically need a full bar of 5-10 energy skills (kind of hard on an elementalist) with 2 skills that have long recharges (one will be master of magic since I doubt you will be killing this with energy storage's energy blast) since at 12 energy storage (which is laughable) you get 2 energy return per skill recharging and you need a (12+1+1,11+1,6+1?) split to get 12 energy storage. At lower enegry storage (4-11) You can't rely on res sig for it, since that depends on someone dying. In PvE you might get away with Asura summons and Pain inverter as triggers but in PvP it is hard to find a long-recharge useful skill that works on low attribute (since it has to be a different attribute than the skill used to gain energy). Aegis/Shatter Enchantment/Energy Burn/Unnatural Signet/Power Drain/Leech signet/Ether signet/Rend Enchantments/Backfire/Shame/Guilt come to mind... but most of those require attribute investment and except Aegis...belong on their primaries. Most of those are 15 energy and save for Mirror of Disenchantment the rest need attribute points to be of use. The best I can think of is Mirror of Disenchantment. The problem is...even if you have only 4 skills and the rest are recharging then you gain 8 energy before attunements assuming your res sig is disabled. That means you are relegated to 5 and 10 energy skills and 2 long recharge skills not of the attribute you are mainly using. (Dual attunements is better for 15 energy and 25 energy skills)--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 04:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Should be returned to 1 or 2 Damage per Manapoint, the other Energy Storage Elite Skills are more useful. (Enchantments also lost so this skill is more debuffing then useful as Elite Skill.) Maybe just change function, Lyssas Aura is in this case much more powerful --Kali Shin Shivara 21:50, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Has anyone found any use for this skill other than a waste of a skill slot? --Shadetz X 07:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Naw, it's easily beaten by Mark of Rodgort.-- §  Eloc   §  09:56, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "For X..X seconds, when target foe is struck by elemental damage, that foe and all nearby foes are set on fire for X..X seconds." Recharge/Casting Time/Cost tweaked as needed. 74.14.106.67 02:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That seems like a copycat of Mark of Rodgort. Let's make it something new and interesting. 5/1/5 For 5..15 seconds, whenever an enchantment, chant, or shout ends on target foe, that foe and all adjacent foes are set on fire for 1..4 seconds. Now it's a decent pressure skill that is most effective against defensive teams.--Skye Marin 15:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This is kind of backward in alot of ways, first, how many elemental hexes are there, and how many are in fire magic..... both of them already causes burning why would this help? Second, this is worthless with other fire magic, because Mark of Rodgort spreads burning like nobodies business, and Glyph of Immolation already offers burning at the use of any spell, why is this limited to the end of elemental hexes which are sooo rare?


 * This should be spamable, activate on the application of the next any kind of hex, and deal damage as well as burning. For it to be truely useful, it should look like this.


 * 15 energy, 1s cast time, 5s recharge. Foe is Hexed for 10 seconds, next time foe is hexed, this spell ends and does 5-50 fire damage to foes adjacent to target foe, and sets them on fire for 1-3 seconds.


 * 3 uses, it can be used with itself to deal small damage and burning every 6 seconds to an adjacent group, and it can be used with incindiary bond to cause burning at the begining and end, and it can be used with any other hex. Cheap weak spells don't belong on elementist, they have energy for a reason, and unless it can be spammed for damage, it shouldn't be weak.--BahamutKaiser 23:51, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think Ensign described the situation the best (some time ago). Essentially he said that a skill consuming a slot that doesn't do anything on it's own is just a wasted slot. I think that certainly rings true for this skill. Fro 20:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Guess we need to reconsider every Glyph and alot of Chants too, Aria of Restoration is definetly useless, and so is Ebon Dust Aura. This definetly needs a rework, but it doesn't need illogical justification.--BahamutKaiser 03:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I seem to have simplified a little too much (I should really stop assuming people take certain things as a given...). Skills are obviously situational. This skill 'does' nothing useful on it's own as obviously do many skills. In the situation where this would be used (by a Dual spec guy) slot space is at a premium. The guy will probably be spec'ed Fire and Water.
 * If your already specing in fire and require burning, what does this skill give you that cannot be better satisfied by the plethora of burning skills already in fire? You could quite easily replace this with Immolate and you'd immediately have a far better skill slotted (you need 12 Fire to achieve 3 seconds of burning with both anyway). Now you have a slot that achieves more than just burning and can function alone. On a bar that needs all the compression it can find to run efficiently (Dual-Spec), you can't afford stuff like Elemental Flame when there are far better options.
 * Another way of looking at the situation is GoLE and Mind Blast (Ignore the fact that one is elite for the moment). GoLE provides energy for all other spells. It doesn't do anything on it's own, but the buff it provides is powerful enough to warrant it's use. However Mind Blast does more than just provide energy, acts as bar compression and thus let's you dual spec far more effectively than with GoLE. I can't think of a single situation where Elemental Flame is good enough to overcome it's inability to do anything on it's own. Fro 13:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Na, you take other situationally skills compeltely for granted to, a cliche isn't accurate for a remote example. This is definetly worthless, entirely better options exist and there is no way you could justify this over glyph of immolation... another skill which does nothing by itself. This is about a skill with no competative value in perspective to perfectly available alternatives, perhaps no advantage exist for using this instead, an irrational remark has nothing to do with this.--BahamutKaiser 03:38, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I guess this is meant to be a cross-attribute skill that you'll likely use with Air or Water. Keep this hex at 4 att so that it applies 2 seconds of burning, then fire off L Surge or Shatterstone for a sort-of-spike that also causes burning?  I don't know, this is a barely feasible skill.  I was confused when I saw it in the GWEN pre-release and I still can't think of a decent use for it.


 * It needs a change, for sure. "For 15 seconds, target foe is hexed with Elemental Flame.  Whenever an Elemental hex ends on that foe, that foe and all nearby foes are set on fire for 1...3 seconds, and Elemental Flame is reapplied." 5 energy, 1 cast time, 30 second recharge


 * Or something along those lines. --Reklaw 07:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


 * gg, it still causes attribute split for a little burning. Armond 08:54, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Elemental flame is a conditional low dmg hex. If an elemental hex ends elemental flame deals 14 dmg for 3 secods (burning). Autoattacking a target for 3 seconds deals more dmg and is unconditional. Suggestion: For 5...17 seconds, target foe is set on fire for 1...5 seconds each time that foe suffers or recovers from a new Elemental Hex. 87.189.251.58 11:25, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * reduce it to 3 seconds and change it to activate when the hex is cast, so it may work with the fire magic hexes, or change it to all hexes --Cursed Angel [[Image:User Cursed Angel Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 13:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Stand still for a second to cast (that's including aftercast) for 5 (maybe 6) seconds of variable speed. Chances are in that time you won't have got close enough to your opponent to make them burn. How about you make this a maintainable enchantment, that inflicts 1 second of burning every second for its duration. That'd be nice, but probably whored with mystic regen for flag runners. Eh, you could still set an upper limit on it's duration, even with a maintainable enchantment. --Ckal Ktak 17:36, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ya, it is kind of a crappy skill.-- §  Eloc   §  18:25, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * With the constant stopping to re-cast, it takes 19 fire magic and an enchanting mod to outrun someone with a 25% speed boost. --24.179.151.252 03:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Which overall, sucks.-- §  Eloc   §  05:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe it should give immunity to Crippled... or maybe just remove it when it's cast (similar to Illusion of Haste) Saph 21:46, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd just raise AOE to Nearby. Make the burning part in the end count. It's not meant to be maintainable or anything, it's meant to burst in, burn and likely pbAOE or hit if you're a warrior. But the burning part being Adjacent makes it hard to use well Patccmoi 14:56, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill was cool when it came out cause that was the fire lines only speed boost and you can be set on fire. Since the advent of FDH, this skill is useless. As mentioned, make immune to cripple (if immune, cripple gets removed anyway), a tad bit faster for a sup rune and let it do damage when it ends. 10/.25/0 For 5 seconds, you are set on fire and move 30...50% faster and are immune to Cripple. Foes attacking you suffer from Burning for 3...9 seconds. When Burning Speed ends, all nearby foes are struck for 15...127 fire damage. --Phoenix Locklear 18:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe if this spell removed all water hexes and made you immune to water hexes for the duration... you're being set on fire after all. --Palebluedot 06:28, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 5 seconds self burn is too long and should be reduced because no one will bring Frigid Armor or any other skill to use Burning Speed. 4 September 2007 (UTC)

This definetly needs to be a stance, that way you don't have to stop moving to use it, and give it a 6 or 7 second recharge. If it was a stance, it would make a great melee caster rushing skill.--BahamutKaiser 00:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "For 5 seconds, you are set on fire and move 30...42% faster. While moving, you gain 10 Health each second. When Burning Speed ends, all adjacent foes are set on fire for 3...8 seconds." Would be better than removig self burn for many reasons. 87.189.230.197 13:10, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I suggest adding an effect like a self applied version of Balthazar's Aura that deals around 22 fire damage per second for 5 seconds to adjacent foes and cause burning to foe for 1-3 seconds when it ends. That will somewhat make up for causing burning to self. --Shadetz X 03:07, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * How about this: Hex Spell: For 3...15 seconds, target foe suffers from burning while moving. Or a variation on that. Nicky Silverstar 08:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

long recharge, medium cost, mediocre damage amke this a bad skill. burning is pretty easy to apply anymore, i think this needs a slight recharge buff to maybe 20 &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090. 01:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, I don't think many people noticed this, but you only take damage while not moving from this skill. It's horrible. --TimeToGetIntense 20:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Spell. Create a Bed of Coals at your location. For 10 seconds, foes standing still near this location are struck for 5...24...29 fire damage each second. Done25 03:15, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

,, ect., ect.
I know Izzy isn't a big fan of passive things but is it just me or are the AoE skills for Elementalist kinda...small? 17:27, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I have little doubt that he could make certain AoE rangers bigger...but some skills are meant to have small AoE, like the first two you just mentioned. They would cost a lot more if their range was increased. Nicky Silverstar 19:40, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And that would be bad for an Ele why? Done25 19:40, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't want longer recharge and/or longer casting time. They're a little too long already to my taste (though not without reason, I know). That is the 'cost' I meant. 145.94.74.23 07:37, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Adjacent range is pretty bad. 87.189.237.171 17:13, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You could also try Earth Magic if you want bigger AoE. All Earth spells have Nearby range. Nicky Silverstar 16:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * They also happen to be worse for dealing damage, iirc, and a lot of them are pbaoe. (Crystal wave/teinai's crystals are both adjacent, btw.) -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 19:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No the bigger problem is that earth AoEs generally are PBAOE or DoT (which causes scatter). The exception is Earthquake/Dragon's Stomp. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 00:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The spells we're talking about here are also DoT spells...the non-PB DoT AoE spells of Earth Magic have larger radiusses and deal the same amount of damage per second as most Fire Magic spells. Nicky Silverstar 22:53, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Please remove scattering of Monster from it. It's the same as Symbol of Wrath and Balthazar's Aura scattering back in the days there was "Desert Griffon Farming"... useless in PvP and PvE --Kali Shin Shivara 21:56, 2 July 2009 (UTC)


 * since it's a hex it doesn't stack (even if it did, burning doesn't stack either) and has an effective 5 second cast time as a result. compare this to ancestor's rage, lightning surge, and shatterstone for similar delayed effects. Liquid Flame does more damage (sans burning) on the same cooldown and it has an easy condition to meet. It'd probably be better if the delay was reduced since it isn't packet damage that flies under prot. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 13:41, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill is just terribad. At a minimum it needs to be 15/1/5, and the condition needs to be "when it ends" instead of "after 3 seconds".  Even then I'd never choose it over RI which does 50% more damage instantly, so maybe the duration needs to be brought down to 1 second also.  Maybe something like:
 * 15e 1s 5r Hex spell
 * Target foe and all nearby foes suffer from burning for 3 seconds. When incendiary bonds ends target foe and all nearby foes take 20...80 damage.  This hex ends after 3...1 seconds.


 * Ultimately, this is just another boring nuke that does nothing that RI can't do better, so it's difficult to see it getting play. It's possible to add utility but fire magic is supposed to be the "punch people in the face" line so that's iffy.  --Symbol 13:08, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * This is a cool spell IMO because it allows you to compress damage by casting other spells when it ends, so I think the 3 second duration is important. The cast time is just silly though. Also, the damage is too low. This should be a spell that makes Fire Eles a huge threat when there's less support on splits, but it doesn't really do that since it hasn't been buffed while all the other damage skills in the game have been. --TimeToGetIntense 13:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's the idea, but it never worked really well in practice. 3 seconds is just way too long for someone to call the hex on them and receive some prot (or even remove it, lawl).  I guess Izzy could make this the hex version of ancestor's rage, it would be weaker but a reasonable alternative to RI if you're worried about disruption.  One thing it really needs is for the burning to start immediately, because if it triggers when the skill ends it'll go to waste since you've probably already set them on fire with immolate or something.  --Symbol 17:40, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * first of all the effect isn't spectacular even in PvE. 84 damage on 16 fire magic + 3 seconds of burning (42 damage) for a total of 126 damage is not that lame to begin with but you wait 5 seconds for the trigger (2 cast, 3 delay) which may mean wasting it completely. Hexbreaker and Holy Veil also kill it and so does Hex removal. It should either take the Ancestor's Rage mechanic (1 second delay to prevent mass stacking) or have the burning apply on application of the hex. Sure it would reduce the number of green numbers to one (the damage) but the burning is pretty much flat as long as you have 12-16 fire magic and burning is easily applied with Mark of Rodgort. To top off the list of problems is 15 recharge (liquid flame's 119 trumps it in most cases and Rodgort's 127+3 seconds of burning=169 on 5 recharge). This is one of the few skills in fire magic that is good in theory but bad in practice (unlike things like PBAOEs in fire magic). It isn't projectile, casts reasonable amount of time (2 seconds for nearby AoE), and does okay damage. The only thing killing it right now is the delay, the fact that it doesn't stack (unlike Searing Flames and other nearby nonprojectile AoEs) due to being a hex, and the possibility of removal. If it is buffed it MAY replace Liquid Flame, but Liquid Flame's 1 cast time and conditional AoE are easy to meet and it is only 10 energy. "Hex Spell. Target foe and all nearby foes are set on fire for 3 seconds and are Hexed with Incendiary Bonds for 1 second. When Incendiary Bonds ends, target foe and all nearby foes are struck for 20...68...80 fire damage. 15 energy/2 cast/15 recharge" or "Hex Spell. Target foe and all nearby foes are are struck for 20...68...80 fire damage and are Hexed with Incendiary Bonds for 1 second. After 1 second, target foe and all nearby foes set on fire for 3 seconds. 15 energy/2 cast/15 recharge" like AoE shatterstone...--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 00:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * If the burning disappears it would be more interesting (Vile Miasma inspired this). "Target and all nearby foes take 25...85...106 fire damage and are hexed with Incendiary Bonds. For 10 seconds, target and all nearby foes suffer an additional 1..3...4 health degeneration while burning. 15 energy/2 cast/15 recharge" That way it has more flavor with the name, more pressure instead of spike, and base damage is upped by 25%. I avoided giving it any affect other than burning or damage since fire's flavor is damage with little or no utility and in this manner it would synergize with Mark of Rodgort. (In theory Incendiary Bonds = effect while burning) --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 01:03, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I think this skill just needs a boost, that's all. There's nothing wrong with the way this skill functions. What is wrong with it is the 15 energy for 120ish damage, the 2 second cast time, and the 15 second recharge. It's underpowered, plain and simple. With it at 3 seconds you can nuke someone very hard but at the cost of a 3 second warning. I like this because it promotes active play. It also allows the Ele to pose a really big threat because he alone can take down half of someone's healthbar in a matter of seconds; he has the ability to force the enemy to react. Unfortunately, Bonds will just get interrupted... and everyone has 600 health. --TimeToGetIntense 14:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * the thing is if the damage is increased it will be more spike-y which is the flavor of Air (ala Lightning Surge). Fire is basically AoE with burning on the side. Let's say this did 200 pure damage (not including burning nonsense which doesn't stack) on 16 Fire...It is still removable and nonstackable but since it is a hex it can only be removed reliably from one person or maybe two people (if foes have Blessed Light or Divert Hexes with 36% recharge wand+focus combination). and that's a lot of damage once you multiply it out.--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 00:16, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Eh, fire has been the damage line forever now. Air is for blinds.  I don't know whether this skill promotes active play...you can just queue up casts and have your (for example) fireball hit at the same time IB triggers, and really, is that such a big deal? Like I said, make it 15e 1s 5r, have the burning start immediately, and make the damage trigger when it ends (so you can't just remove it), and maybe it will see some use.  --Symbol 01:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It promotes active play for the defense and is at least some challenge to use for the Ele himself. Anyway, I don't think it matters that you can remove it to stop it from happening. The problem is that this skill poses a low threat but gives a 3 second warning. For such a drawback you need a stronger threat, and since such a drawback is there, there is no need for further drawbacks like 2 second cast time and 15 second recharge. Those just sink this skill hard. --TimeToGetIntense 20:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * How strong a threat are you talking about? Because out of the delayed action nukes available only Shatterstone is any good, IMO, and that's two packets of 100+ damage. --Symbol 01:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Shatterstone isn't a nuke, because it targets only 1 foe. Nicky Silverstar 08:53, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Symantics ftl, Nicky. Anyway, I think to start with, Bonds needs to have a 1 second cast time, 5 second recharge and no other changes. If it sees no play, it should have a small damage increase so that it matches Fireball. It's not elite, so it can't be as strong as Shatterstone. It's the only delayed nuke that is not elite (I'm refering high packet damage spells as "nukes" because they aren't exclusively used to spike, so QQ moar Nicky) so it's hard to compare, but if you consider how easy it is to interrupt and the cooldown, it's plain bad with or without a delay, so I think the cast time and recharge need to be fixed first. --TimeToGetIntense 14:01, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, well, sorry about that. I just had to mention it once. Nicky Silverstar 13:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I really like the idea of the _hex_ being AoE just from the hilarity that would result. Imagine catching two or three people with the hex, and each of _them_ could catch two or three more when it pops.  KABOOM!  Of course we're playing GW not Bomberman so this will never happen.  --Symbol 02:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, assuming no other changes to the skill, that sounds pretty good to me. It would be a threat you actually put priority on for interrupting. Could be limited to up to 3 foes hexed at once. --TimeToGetIntense 11:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

This skill is too expensive to be used frequently on a non-dual attune water magic skillbar with anything worth of value (Freezing Gust/Deep Freeze/Ice Spikes/Blurred Vision/Shatterstone...maybe) and it only does damage most of the time (signet disable really doesn't seem too elemenalist-like). The "buff" to Blurred Vision made it more possible to energy manage using Glowing Ice, which basically trumps this in every situation except for signet disabling due to energy return (you'd want frontloaded energy for water magic to snare on demand as opposed to waiting for energy to regen). For other situations Steam is cheaper, does more damage, and has a useful secondary effect. The problem is this skill is too powerful for an elementalist skill if it is reduced to 5 energy and 2 recharge yet at the same time not good enough to be 10 energy. A nice "buff" (more "rebalance") would be "Target foe is struck for 10...54...65 cold damage. If target foe is using a Signet, that Signet is interrupted. (5 energy, 1 cast, 3 recharge)" 3 recharge is for Resurrection Signet cast time (since that is the most likely use for this) and the only other signets you can interrupt with 1 cast time is Healing Signet/Signet of Devotion/Signet of Twilight/Blessed Signet/Signet of Illusions/Cautery Signet/Death Pact Signet...the rest are not really priority since any mesmer or ranger can keep them out of play such as Signet of Creation/Signet of Suffering/Archer's Signet/Signet of Mystic Wrath/Purge Signet/Signet of Weariness/Signet of Humility/Signet of Return/Barbed Signet. It's kind of like Lightning Javelin...damage with a mostly useless secondary effect. Alternately, without decreasing the energy cost, the damage could be upped considering there are few water magic damage skills: "Target foe is struck for 10...70...85 cold damage. If target foe is using a Signet or Weapon spell, that foe takes an additional 10...34...40 cold damage and that skill is interrupted and disabled for 3...8...9 seconds. (10 energy/1 cast/4 recharge)" This way it becomes more than a mash-on-recharge kind of skill...since you are rewarded for actually making use of it. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 14:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Inferior to Frigid Armor/Armor of Mist in every way. You can't use Glyph of Immolation-Steam with this first of all (not that the combo is that great). Then consider that with 15+ Water magic Frigid armor has better recharge, is maintainable and has anti-burning. There are two way to buff this: make it armor versus physical AND (non-fire?) elemental damage, cut the recharge by 33% so that with 13 Water magic it is maintainable (or even by 50%...maintainable with 8 water), or simply make the duration higher so that with 16 water magic you can maintain it. Armor in general is pretty bad nowadays with the armor stacking nerf since it is more efficient to bring damage caps like Protective Spirit, damage reduction (Stoneflesh Aura and friends), or partywide armor (Watch Yourself, Stand Your Ground). --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 17:14, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Boosts just +40 Armor against PHYSICAL and ends if you use FireMagic, Armor of Mists in this Case is much more useful with 33% Runspeed, also Frigid Armour (+40 vs physical, no burning AND complete recastable in duration of effect). Need a Boost or another effect, maybe it works great as crossover-condition-attackskill (cracked armor under burning condition for example) --Kali Shin Shivara 21:55, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

should be target ally given the amount of conditional-ness it has. Should probably be like Guardian but with extremely short duration and short recharge to make it active. Or maybe make it do cold damage: "For 4...9...10 seconds, target ally has a 50% chance to block incoming projectile spells and attacks. Whenever a projectile attack is blocked the attacker takes 10...34...40 cold damage. (10 energy, 1 cast, 15 recharge)" or "For 5...10...11 seconds, target ally has a 75% chance to block incoming projectile attacks. Whenever a projectile attack is blocked, the attacker takes 10...34...40 cold damage. This enchantment ends if that party member hits with an attack Skill. (10 energy, 1 cast, 15 recharge)" The latter would block incoming projectile attacks while the former would block Flare / Fireball / Lava Arrows / Phoenix / Lightning Javelin / Lightning Orb / Lightning Bolt / Shock Arrow / Stone Daggers / Glowstone / Stoning / Ebon Hawk / Ice Spear / Shard Storm / Water Trident / Spear of Light / Crippling Dagger / Dancing Daggers/ Disrupting Dagger. I thought about suggesting this to be partywide, but "Shields Up!" / Aegis is so much better and Weapon of Warding / Guardian work against all kinds of attacks. So really this needs some kind of effect to make it worth using which is either damage/support/snare (all the uses of water magic). Blocking projectile spells would be a new precedent and add a new dynamic to the elementalist water support line.--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 17:14, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Laughable compared to Reversal of Damage. I think a major problem with some elementalist skills is they aren't meant for the elementalist (i.e. they don't fit the flavor...Glimmering Mark/Thunderclap because of passive effects, stone sheath because changing damage types is probably better suited for necromancer and mesmer hexes, stone flesh aura because elementalists don't have damage reduction from shadow/holy/chaos/dark, iron mist because it screws up the earth magic damage which is its attribute, Ride the Lightning/shock/PBAOEs because you shouldn't be standing there taking damage to begin with). Conditional damage should be left to mesmers and necromancers and prot elites should be left to monks IMO. When you think about this skill the description fits the name but the skill doesn't fit the elementalist. It needs something like partywide/target-ally/recharge buff... but then it is not elementalist-like in nature to begin with and the damage is not even elemental damage (why is that...it is not in earth magic or energy storage). The best I can think of at this point is to change it something along the lines of "For 10 seconds, the next time an enemy spell or attack skill would deal damage to target ally, that damage is negated and that Spell's caster takes 20...140...170 cold damage. (5 energy, 1/4 cast, 5 recharge)" to make it actually useful beyond passiveness. Making it spell and attack SKILL would mean you need to use it actively as opposed to using it as an *elite* cover enchantment (60 second duration and 10 recharge?) for water attunement like now. Shatterstone is still better for damage even after doubling the damage numbers. If this is deemed to powerful, maybe "This spells ends prematurely if target ally uses an attack skill or fire magic." can be added --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 17:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Elite Enchantment Spell. For 60 seconds, whenever an enemy Spell would deal damage to target ally, that Spell's caster takes 10...70...85 damage. i can't think of anything better to this skil--189.12.67.75 01:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I offered my possible solution aeons ago, which was altering the skill to have an effect sort of like Spell Shield, except reversing damage when you might take damage. I offer another solution, and that's to make this skill affect any spell, not just ones that might deal damage.  Sort of like a one-shot Spell Breaker.  The recharge would have to be adjusted, though.  The reason why no one uses this spell, aside from the suck factor, is that you're really not going to use it against anyone.  You basically have to walk up to someone and wave and ask them to cast a spell at you for it to work.  Plus, the only consistent way for it to work is if you're being targeted by an Ele, or the occasional Domination mesmer or Channeling Rit.  Maybe a buttcaster or two.  --Reklaw 04:37, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

needs 1/4 cast. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 01:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree personally. 1 second isn't bad at all, and it gives you not 1 but 2 buffs. It is fine the way it is, otherwise it would be too easy to use by melee secondaries. (this skill may not be much to an Elementalist, but to a Dervish, 1/4 casting time would be jackpot) Nicky Silverstar 07:54, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It can't be maintained anyway unless you use glyph of renewal or glyph of swiftness. This is not a big deal on 1 second cast but it is bad for running.--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 02:19, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Give it quarter second cast and we might possibly see water ele runners use this instead of storm djinn's (hands down the best ele running skill in the game)... -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 02:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S. the only profession that would be able to use it effectively on 10 energy without attunements is Dervishes as mentioned. As far as I know, only Frozen Burst (hard on 15 energy), Conjure Frost, Water Trident (maybe as anti-kite), Frigid Armor, and Armor of Mist are acceptable Water Magic skills on a Dervish. Keep in mind the attribute investment for both armor and duration. Speccing into /E on a Dervish is enough of a drawback IMO (No reverse hex, protective spirit, Holy veil, shadow refuge, sight beyond sight and other useful enchantments). Granted you could lineback with the new enegry cost for Whirlwind. (though pointless on a build with flagrunning type of skills) Why bother if you can take Featherfoot grace though? --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 02:34, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * This skill can be used for a lot more than just running. How about kiting? Basically, this is an Elementalist defense skill without downsides or specifics, which is kinda rare (the other one being Stoneflesh Aura. Just like the Ranger was never given any good self heals, the Elementalist most likely isn't meant to have any easy-to-use defensive skills. Armor of Mist is already the best non-elite self defense skill the Elementalist has, since it not only gives a much needed armor boost, but allows the Elementalist to kite more easily as well. It has 2 positive effects where other skills have none. If all the other (less powerful) self defenses don't get less casting time, then why should this one? And if you buff this skill, won't other skills like Kinetic Armor or Frigid Armor be even more underpowered in comparison? I would only vote in favor if the armor boost was lessened as well.Nicky Silverstar 09:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You can't kite if melee is adjacent to you with 1 cast time. Maybe if you precast it before people get inside your aggro circle? Kinetic armor is crap outside of spam though... I don't see why there would be any reason to give this armor boost. I agree with you though, there shouldn't be that much armor on what is a run skill (+10...34...40armor currently). Maybe (+2...7...8) + 1/4 cast time would be a better idea. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 02:23, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Why not? Not every attack they make can interrupt you, and they'll need pretty good reflexes to interrupt a second skill. I like your last suggestion better than your first, but personally, I like the skill the way it is now too. Nicky Silverstar 16:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * +2..7..8 what? Armor? That's so little it'd make the skill useless if it's not maintainable. Also, why are you waiting for the warriors to get in your face before kiting (and as part of that casting your prekite spells)? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 05:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Cast a spell instantly but lose all your energy, imo the worst glyph with the longest recharge, don't tell me I can swap weapons, oh yes I could resurrect with it faster, anyhing else ? 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * it's alright with phoenix plus deep wound on w/e, a/e, d/e or w/e (wrong section, its an ele skill, not a rit one ;) ) &mdash; Skuld 16:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You can use Eviscaphoenix. :D  Seriously, the problem with the "instant cast" glyphs is that excepting gimmick combos, you don't know in advance that you want them, so you're going to activate them at exactly the same time you'd be casting the spell in question. That means that you're actually only reducing whatever it is to 1.75s cast (2s if it's Glyph of Sacrifice) and the only spells worth considering a skill slot for that are 5+ seconds - Meteor Shower and resurrection spells. Glyph of Sacrifice is chosen over this partially because of Essence's abysmal recharge and partially because Elementalist builds nowadays aren't perpetually near zero energy like the old Prodigy guys were.--Mysterial 17:29, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What about "For 15 seconds, your next # Spells cast instantly, when Glyph of Essence ends, you lose all Energy." or "For 15 seconds, your next Spell casts instantly but causes you to lose # Energy."? -- Gordon Ecker 09:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This seems like a dangerous skill to buff. --TimeToGetIntense 01:12, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Seems kind of broken because it protects other professions with low energy pools, especially those who can afford to dump all their energy and rely on signets and adrenaline, wile it punishes Elementist and their large energy pool, it isn't like energy comes back faster just because you have more of it. They could change this to loose X-X amount of energy based on Energy Storage, that way it can seriously hurt other professions with negative energy, wile being moderatly priced for an elementist.  It is still highly restricted by recharge.--BahamutKaiser 23:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Just a note, skills that make you lose energy don't take you into negative energy, the lowest they can take you is zero energy. See Purge Signet for an example. [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 01:52, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I just thought about using this with ether prodigy as a safety, if the recharge was much lower, it might have some alternate value.--BahamutKaiser 21:32, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Most of the danger of this skill comes from classes using it that don't have a whole lot of business casting spells. I think the original idea behind this spell was that yes, you can use this to achieve some sort of spike but you're not allowed any followthrough, and you can also use this when your energy is low (about 30E if you're using the glyph + shower for example).  Weapon switching, IMO, is a convention in GW I'd rather not force on people.  In an ideal world it wouldn't exist, as it's a somewhat clunky mechanic.  This nearly requires it for any kind of follow up.  So, how about this:


 * "Glyph. For 15 seconds, if your energy is below 30, your spells cast instantly. Each time you cast a spell in this way, you regain 100% of that spell's energy cost and all of your skills are disabled for 5 seconds."  Might need the duration lowered to 10. --Reklaw 21:28, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see much of a use for this skill on E primaries, but I don't think it is underpowered. It can be devastating on a Me/E when coupled with Diversion. Instant cast = goodbye any skill you would like to take out and the mes has the means to recover it's energy quickly afterwards, especially if the mes energy hides. --Rururrur 01:49, 11 November 2007 (UTC)


 * This should be slapped with exhaustion and have the energy loss removed. That way it will be used on elementalists instead of being used on everything BUT elementalists. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 01:26, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe energy loss (Scaling with energy storage) instead of all energy, and exhaustion. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 04:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Attunements
Personally am getting edgy with the limitations of all attunements but I'm using this one as a example, I understand it works, I understand it can be covered and all that but I seriously think this needs to be rethought. Especially with fire, and high energy cost skills when a mesmer strips this you feel it, A LOT. Same with certain air skills and such. Sure you can use a cover enchantment and hope they dont have multiple shatters like some have, and sure you can use 5/8 skills to basically manage energy and support the team. I think energy storage does help you get a few more spells out but other than that I would rather see it help manage energy since even if you can get a few more out it still takes you THAT MUCH LONGER to regain the energy which turns the handicap around. I see the use in putting some limitation on eles to keep them in line but they have fallen to support meaning almost two years ago when I started the game and picked an ele thinking I would be offensive I was dead wrong. Simply put even if it's just lowering recharge time by a very short amount I feel any change would be helpful it has enough drawbacks as it is. Tired of using half a build to protect it and beign stuck with 3 actual skills, or sitting and waiting to reuse it just to be interrupted and useless for another 45 seconds.
 * A warrior or ranger spends most of his skill slots on utility. Why should eles be any different?  It's not like attunes are priority targets for enchantment strips. ~Seef II &lt;?|?&gt; 03:33, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * They probably should be. :-) But seriously, if you dislike it that much, just use Glyph of Lesser Energy. As much as I dislike Mesmers, I wouldn't want Elementalists to be Mester-proof all of a sudden. Takes away the challenge. Nicky Silverstar 19:17, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with some adjustment. Attunements should supplement energy return...not be the cause of it. As for the "why should ele's be any different" thing, Ele's dont get stances and someone better adjust some cast times then. Seeing how Rangers have .5 activation times on interrupts and Mesmers just do what they do, seems unfair that attunements have major drawbacks like a 2 second cast time. Look at the GWEN skill for Assassins-- Way of the Master: 5/.25/30 Enchantment Spell. For 60 seconds, while holding a non-dagger weapon, you have an additional 3...27...33% chance to land a critical hit. Looks like Sins get another fast cast skill and older skills from other professions get overlooked. This is a Sins attunement if you will. Compare that to Ele attunements with 10/2/45. Even the elite attunement has the same stats. JFC man, WTF is that about! I dont know why sins get such low cast times on spells while casters do not. Seems a bit odd and out of place. You would think a caster, that specializes in spells have faster cast times. As for the so called, "takes away the challenge" thing, dude, there is no challenge when a .25 cast time is targeting a 2 second cast time. It doesnt even require time for the brain to react fast enough. Thats why Ele's get owned. They cant compete. Now, if cast times were within range of each other, then yeah, it will be a challenge. Since its not, when you see an interrupt Ranger and an Ele, you may as well put all of your money on the Ranger. Until then, fights can't be 50/50 when one guy in the corner is an Ele. The ele is not a damage dealer as we would like to think; rather, eles area a utility class. Take some time out, look in this wiki, look up each class skills, do a fast scroll down and take a peek at the cast times for all classes. I hate to say it but once you realize some things...well, the ele class just sux. --Phoenix Locklear 12:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That's because you can't have big-packet damage on <= 1 s casts (read: rit spike). Liquid Flame is a noticeable exception, but its recharge is prohibitive for pressure and its utility is conditional.  If you do have big numbers on low casts then you have caster spikes which are really no fun to play against since they're fairly hard to mitigate.  You can't dodge some damage spells and often, caster spikes telegraph their target allowing prot to land - faster-casting damage dealing spells don't allow you to put the prot on, really, and the game becomes something like ritspike.  The elementalist is in a pretty good spot right now; it's just that casters take a more defensive than offensive role in PvP, and things should really be that way or the meta degenerates. ~Seef II &lt;?|?&gt; 04:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The thread is about change to attunements and I agree it should be a fast cast and lower recharge. If it gets stripped or interrupted, the ele is going to sit there with his thumb up his ass until it recharges. That is not very practical or beneficial. I don't understand why other classes (especailly melee like sins) get fast casting skills and Ele's do not. Mesmers have to use att points in Fast Casting just to do what sins and dervs get for free. It goes against reason. Everything in the Sin/Derv/Rang/War/Monk/Rit/Par/Mes line is cast fast and they do a very good job at what they do. I understand ANet's reasoning behind the "slow cast for high damage" thing, but it was not implemented correctly as the ele's damage is mitigated by armor and every other class ignores armor (wierd huh). Daze, interrupts, attacks and such hinder the ele with slow cast times and prevents them from being a damage dealer. If Ele's cant get out spells in combat, then why bother fighting? They can't compete when everyone else attacks and casts a lot faster. Use a monks example vs any interrupter: maybe he will get int maybe he wont so now the Ranger has to use skill to int. Put that same Ranger against an Ele and it takes no skill to defeat the ele. Rangers can spam interrupts (omfg, especially if using Melandru's Shot...talk about unlimited energy!!!) Then they have daze that can stack with stuff like silencing bows (i was dazed for 30 seconds one time and he kept it on me the entire time since Broadhead arrow has lower recharge) but Blinding Surge is only 8 seconds with 16Air and staves dont have blinding upgrades. By the time Ele's want to cast just one spell, we are just about dead. Its not so much to ask for attunements, or any other ele skill, to be better. They are used for utility and it should not be that way. --Phoenix Locklear 19:26, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * This thread made me laugh. The reason the assassin gets fast casting spells is because assassins are about speed. Dervs use divine magic, which is the same as the monk, who gets fast casting spells. Rangers, warriors, and paragons don't use spells, so let's not go there. Rits, again, focus on speed - not to the point of the assassin or mesmer, but it's still there. Either way, attunements are balanced. You're not supposed to build your build around the idea that you'll always have your attunement up - that's called a single point of failure. Make your build with the idea that the attunement is there to support your bar and use Glyph of Lesser Energy for your energy management. If you assume everything's going to work out ideally for you, it won't, and you'll be upset when it does. If you assume that people and the AI are going to do their best to screw you over and instead focus on countering that (what strips a glyph?), you'll be much happier with your play experience. Armond 06:50, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll disagree and say that assassins and dervishes get fast spells in part due to power creep, and that somebody didn't want them to waste a lot of melee time casting. It's however not very balanced that way.  Too many dervish spells are too fast, really.  But I have no issue with attunements - they offer a lot of benefit, and a bit of fragility to accompany the power they offer is a good thing. --Epinephrine 11:43, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Armond- We eles get great e-managemnet, true, but most of this comes in either A)Elite form B)long reload enchant form C)Glyphs D)e-gain spells. Glyphs are great, no question asked, but an ele can't manage energy without an attunement - Especially with these horrendous non-efficient spells we got. That is the idea of elementaists. Big, ineffficient numbers. I agree that attunements are klunky, not becouse of the fact that they are fodder for strips, but fodder for interrupts. We eles *need* faster, more pwnsor casts like monks got- See RoF and SB. But we don't, becouse we got superb emanagement. That is to say, in theory, 'couse the avarage ranger and mesmer really loves to wreck out long casts. That being said, I think attunements could use a nudge with teh buffstick. If not, shorter casts and cheaper costs are in order, no? Attunements are the SR of eles - we need em. Badly.

I have to agree that this seems underpowered, but it really stems from the whole system of Elementist power being disfunctional. Single attunement breaks down cost alot, Dual makes every skill basically free, but the effectiveness of these skills is very prohibitive. Costs are being prorated for use with massive energy management skills, and the elementist is using a minimum of high energy storage investment and a single energy management skill, or that plus 2 energy management skills. It is alright to have expensive skills if they decimate the foe, that does not mean high recharge as well to keep you from using it often knowing that it is either costing you alot of energy or an attribute and 2 skills.

The high costs and reliance on attunments or other energy management skills is a natural counter to the damage and destruction an elementist should provide, stripping these enchantments, the cast time and recharge time are all reasonable difficulties associated with opposing an elementist and shutting down this source of destruction, the real issue is potency.

Elementist spells, nearly all of them need to be costly, deadly, and frequent. One hit wonders just arn't acceptable, trying to limit elementist by busting his damage output with high recharge, knowing that the elementist is either severly limited in utility because of all the investment required in energy management, or their paying out the ..... because the spells are costly, it is not alright for these spells to be even more limited.--BahamutKaiser 01:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * How do I put this. Glyph of lesser energy instead of attunement WILL NOTTTTTTTT work I'm tired of people saying that.  Our spells usually cost 10+ energy and saving energy off two spells every THIRTY seconds will not change the face for the other 25 seconds you have 80 energy for a good 8 spells IF THAT so good luck managing that.  If you make it, try it again with what you had left ;P simply wont work.  Rangers need to build on utility? Oh right I forgot expertise was a skill that took a slot.  Seems like ranger skills actually DO something not HELP do something.  It's not like Distracting Shot-> Your next attack skill interrupts.  But people have accepted it because it's the way it's always been so their too stubborn to change it.  Yet I doubt a  better system will be bothered to be thought up.


 * Dancing Daggers vs. Lightning Orb:

Daggers do 105 damage and Orb does 100+25% ap - About the same

Daggers 1 sec cast time (0.66 with DP) Orb 2 sec cast time - Daggers hands down.

Both have 5 second recharges (unless DP is active) - Daggers usually wins.

Daggers cost 5 energy and Orb 15. You lose ALOT more if orb is stopped.

Score:
 * Daggers THREE
 * Orb ZERO

Please tell me that nothing is wrong. Done25 23:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, the 25% armour penetration means orb does 140 on 60 targets, and it only gets better compared with dagger against better armoured targets. Oh yes, Obb has full spell range. try to get all of the facts in your argument.


 * Daggers: 3
 * Orb: 2

--Ckal Ktak 16:30, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Eh, you forgot a few things:

Daggers cut right through prot spirit and RoF and spirit bond Daggers can be supercharged with DP

Orb is very, very, very, good when spiking.

Daggers get owned faster with dmg absorb.

Orb is in air, with a lot more utility (blind, gale, etc..)

Daggers put a greater strain on your energy because you can't lower it by using, say, an attunement.

So, yeah, 'bout the same. However, daggers wins @ pressure. Warrirors/The tree wins @ spikes. So, daggers > orb.


 * Let's not forget Entangling Asp + Signet of Toxic Shock = KD + 100 armor ignoring insta damage. So daggers wins in the flexibility regard because it is the lead for the chain. And as for energy? Assassin's Promise is where it is at.

So we have:

Protection ignoring.

Much faster cast.

Shorter flight time due to the range.

Energy is not a problem because sins are about spiking and running if it fails. Deadly Arts has massive utility.

And it creates combos. Done25 21:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm slightly confused as to how this turned into a "buttcaster" debate, but I'll bite. (Ew.)  As far as damage-dealing cast spells go, that single Deadly Arts skill combo has all other builds beat, oddly enough.  Think about it: mesmers can deal direct damage, but not as quickly or as powerfully; ritualists can do the same, but not as quickly unless coordinated with other teammates; monks can smite targets, but nowhere near as quickly; necromancers can sometimes deal direct damage, but not that quickly; an elementalist is the only damage caster that can mete out the same damage as the dancing daggers-asp-signet build, but the skills that do so cast far more slowly, and the damage comes in the form of PRESSURE rather than a SPIKE, unless coordinated.  The closest you can get to the type of damage compression the DA build offers is something like Lightning Surge-Orb.  And the funny thing is, right after this spike is applied by an Assassin, he can do it almost immediately, all over again!  IMO, it's a viable build, but it's simply too good in comparison to other cast-damage types, especially considering this is an Assassin.  The damage that Dancing Daggers does should be spread out over time, in wider packets.  That is, instead of three daggers that strike in succession in under a second, make the skill send a dagger every second for three seconds, possibly striking for slightly more damage.  I understand that Assassins are all about damage compression, but to offer a CAST attack build with the amount of compression that this one offers is just silly.  And I should know, having run the build as much as I have in its various forms.  I still run it - because it's very effective and simple to use.  Yet it's simply too powerful as far as its UTILITY goes right now.
 * Anyway, about Fire Attunement... I've also played an Elementalist for a long time, and consider myself very proficient in its use.  That said, I find that having an attunement ripped off or interrupted as soon as I cast it, especially in a dual attunement build, can be detrimental to a profession that already has slow cast times.  The more I think about it, the more I wonder why the basic attunements (not Elemental Attunement, which deserves a recharge time) even have recharges above 15 seconds.  I think it's a legitimate tactic to cripple an Elementalist by tearing down these vital enchantments.  However, I agree that Attunement spells are essential on almost all Elementalist builds, and as such, should not be diabled for any more than 30 seconds, considering all of the other limitations placed on the class. --Reklaw 22:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * How about turning attunements into chants? Nicky Silverstar 12:19, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
 * In the sense that once they get applied, they cannot get removed, but they can still be interrupted and they don't give energy to themselves any more? 87.210.150.58
 * What attunements effectively do is make elementalists the only 7 skillslot class in game, increasing effectiveness of interrupts against them and making deenchanting another counter (on top of diversion, interrupts etc.). Now i could see that beeing reasonalbe if elementalist damage would be in any way scary but compared to physical dmg it is not. So right now it is just another way to cripple a class that already isn't able to compete as a damage dealer. That is at least outside PvE Tank&Spank groups, and even there mesmers excel them by quite a bit now. Beetlejuice 12:02, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * So turning them into chants would solve part of the problem, without making them overpowered right? 87.210.150.58 08:51, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Chants are overpowered in general. Imo, leave them as they are; if you need energy management on an air bar, bring gole. There's a single skill that costs more than 15e in that entire line, and it's pretty horribad. If you have any skill in canceling, you can gole, start a cast, and cancel it before being interrupted. (Unless there's an epic warrior out there running around in ur midline dchoppin ur bsurge.) Armond 10:34, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Making them chants seems a bit odd. What about making them just pure spells like Convert Hexes so that they can't be stripped but can still be affected by all spell counters? -- Gordon Ecker 11:57, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Reduce recharge on attunements. Frontlines all get absolutely broken skills like Rending Touch and will not hesitate to run to you and strip your attune seconds after you put it up. Balanced? :/ - Auron 12:16, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Why would turning them into chants be odd? Spellcasters often chant for great lengths when preparing a spell. You could view it as calling upon an element. Anyway, while it may be odd, it would really fix them once and for all. Once you get those vital attunements (which can still be interrupted by just about everything), you're allowed to keep them. And if GoLE is so much more useful, then that is another reason to buff attunements: they should be about even in power. Oh, and it would help weaken those Mystic Regeneration users in AB a bit. I like the skill myself, but I agree that it is a tad powerful on non-dervishes. Nicky Silverstar 08:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Because all current chants affect all party members or allies within earshot and end after they trigger a centain number of times. But a self-only, unlimited triggering chant wouldn't be that much odder than the scythe mastery melee attacks or the numerous irregular shouts. -- Gordon Ecker 11:07, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I always thought they simply were shouts with a casting time. I think that that is what Nicky meant. Or at least I hope so. There is no reason why they can't target the caster and not the team though. Several warrior shouts do... Mistress of Trade 16:23, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yup, that is what I meant. Make them unremovable once cast. Nicky Silverstar 09:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Looking at Expert Focus. Attunements should not only be unremovable, but have another effect too.

Elite Energy Management
Elementalist energy management spells suck for several reasons. First of all you really do not have anything worth casting with the energy. If you want to do damage Searing Flames/Savannah Heat beats anything you could do damagewise with any amount of energy as an elementalist because all non elite damage skills suck castingtime and/or recast-wise. Even if you would spam Rodgort's Invocation with the energy, you still wouldn't come anywhere close to SF spam. And RI is already 10times better than any other Ele damage spell dps-wise. And if you want to do utility then you just don't need the energy because ele utility either is not spamable or comes with exhaustion. The other Problem is that every single elementalist elite energy management skill has at least one major drawback attached to it that cripples it to (almost) uselessness.

Ether Prism: Casting time here is the worst for several reasons. First getting interrupted on a 25 energy spell hurts, second this spell is designed to be used often and then the 2 seconds every cast add up pretty bad. Another drawback is that this is one of those eManagement skills that only work when you least need them. Once you are low on energy it won't work anymore.

Ether Prodigy: This one at least has some uses, though none of them involve casting elementalist skills. The "removes all enchantments" part kills it for that. Elementalists are a 7 skill slot class. They 'need' their attunements. Having them stripped will make this skill ineffective because you first have to compensate for the loss of the attunement. Exhaustion here is actually quite bearable because you don't have (and actually don't want) to spam this skill but still not something that screams use me.

Ether Renewal: Nerfed to complete uselessness. Even if you dedicate all 8 slots to make it work i can't see doing something usefull with it. Using it on "normal" skillbars will not only make you waste the elite skill slot but actually loose more energy than you gain. Those 2 sec+ cast times of eles will let you cast about 2 spells while the duration lasts and you will need to get back those 10 energy first that it costs. Using it on a skill bar where you load up on enchantments is still not effective because then you have dedicated your entire build around one skill that works less than 1/3rd of the time and only gives you energy (which most of it you will have to spend maintaining all those enchantments anyway).

Energy Boon: This one is actually usable like you would expect of an elite energy management skill. It works when you need energy. No high energy cost, no high casting time, no requirement to have high energy already to make it work. This one just is not effective. Even if you have no other exhaustion skill this one has an effective recast of 30 sec. That is twice as much as Offering of Blood for example while giving the same net energy.

Second Wind: This one is actually ok, but the 2 sec castingtime and the lack of stuff to cast with as elementalist made me never use it either.

Elemental Attunement: This again is one of the more usefull ones, but those 5 seconds for getting up your attunements is a pain and gets even worse when it is stripped from you just 5 seconds later.

Mind Blast: Really nice but only usable on fire Eles and again a skill that only works when you need it least. Once your energy dropped and you really would need a boost this wont work anymore.

So apart from the general Elementalist problem that every single non elite damange spell sucks because of either to long castingtime, to long recast or (in most cases) both, with the exception of Mind Blast (which is no pure eManagement skill anyway) every single one of them could need a boost. In case of elemental attunement and second wind reducing castingtime to 1 would already be enough. Energy Boon would need a pretty big efficiency boost. Ether renewal needs to be either completely redone or extremely buffed, ether prodigy would be great if there just would not be the enchantment stripping and ether prism needs at least its casting time reduced to 1 or lower. Beetlejuice 13:56, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * My vote goes to adding Mind Blast to Energy Storage. That would allow all Elementalists to benefit from it, instead of just Fire Elementalists. Considering that most Elementalists have 12 Energy Storage or less, it wouldn't even have to be re-balanced. One of the problems of the Elementalist is the effort it requires to actually be able to deal damage. Maybe those e-management spells could argument the next spell(s) with a little damage or some other useful effect. For example, Glyph of Energy is practically worthless now, but if it would make the next spell uninterruptible as well, it would become useful. If Second Wind removed x exhaustion and made you gain as much energy as the exhaustion that was removed, maximum of x, then it would be worth taking. Ehther renewal could add +x% damage to a spell for each enchantment on you. The possibilities are endless, but e-management needs to do something worthwhile, or the Elementalist needs something to use the energy for. Otherwise, elite energy management will always be overshadowed by GoLE and Attunements. That's just my opinion though. Nicky Silverstar 21:12, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

What I see here is "elite energy management sucks, except for a few skills, because you need your elite for damage." Close, but no banana. The concept of elite energy management, in general, fails hard. Mind Blast is by far the best skill on the list - it's pretty much unstoppable energy management, whereas everything else gets killed one way or another (exhaustion, cast time, etc). It's not a "I'm low on energy, I need to get back up" skill, it's a "I'm low on energy - what the FUCK just happened?" skill. (Which is to say, by using it you should never get low on energy.)

The main thing is, except in a Mind Blast runner (where runners tend to use their elites for utility, and Mind Blast is nothing if not utility - unstoppable energy management and a bit of damage, what more do you want?), you have no excuse for taking an energy management elite (really, any energy storage elite) over a utility elite. (Eles aren't made for damage, tbh, with the exception of Fire's AoE in PvE.) Why take Second Wind when I can take Water Trident? Why take Elemental Attunement when I can take Shatterstone? Most importantly, why take anything else when I can take Blinding Surge (easily the best skill in the game)?

At this point, I think the best we can do with energy management elites is learn from them for balance in GW2. Armond 22:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I find that saying that the Elementalist was never meant to do damage is a little short sighted. Mind Blast is a perfect example of how energy management elites should have been: an effect + energy management. Energy management in itself is not worth the elite slot, especially not if the non-elite alternatives are as effective as they currently are. If the skills were changed a bit, to provide additional benefits, OR give energy with less IF's and BUT's, they would be worth it. For example, Energy Boon has enough of a drawback by being elite...why does it need exhaustion as well? It completely destroys the skill. Nicky Silverstar 08:56, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * That's the problem. People have been getting used to the thought that elementalists do no damage and are a pure support class in PvP for so long that you now get funny looks if you ask for balancing elementalist damage spells. And what's even worse, all their support is pretty much anti melee, so once the overpowered melee dmg vs overpowered block gets fixed they will be entirely useless.
 * The only case they were taken for damage is pve tank&spank because they had the best AoE (Searing Flames and before that echoed and renewaled Meteor Showers) and the best shutdown (Meteorshower). But even that is no longer the case, because in the try to make mesmers PvE friendly instead of giving them mesmerlike pve skills like an aoe shutdown they gave them the biggest nukes in the game. And now with Cry of Pain they have a nuke that not only makes any damage an ele could bring obsolete, but with its 1/4 sec castingtime it is so spiky that you do not even need a shutdown, you just spike monsters to death.
 * That's the reason i bumped up ebon vanguard title. Because without some serious rebalancing of pretty much every non elite damage spell i only see a future for eles in pve as a ward whore. Beetlejuice 14:33, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * In PvP, eles are utility only. Why are you going to bring any sort of uberdamage when you can bring bsurge? It's the best warrior shutdown there is (and it should be some of the only on your team; you shouldn't be bringing huge block webs and such, a bsurge should be the one taking care of all that). -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 19:13, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Good luck with melandru dervishes then. But that is exactly my point. Eles in PvP are utility only. That is because their damage can't compete on the one hand and they have some of the best counters against the overpowered melee damage on the other hand. I just think that shouldn't be how it works. Spell damage should be a viable alternative to melee damage. Then we wouldn't have a discussion about to blockheavy meta, because if it would be to blockheavy, ppl just could bring more spelldamage and blockheavy skillsets won't be that popular anymore. And then eles could play something else but only bsurge builds.
 * But that's not even the point of this section here. Issues with elite energy management apart from either simply beeing horribly uneffective or having downsides not worth all the trouble like mentioned above have nothing to do with spell damage in general, but with non elite elementalist spells. There are just none which would be worth spending your energy on. The support spells are either elite themselves or can be fueled with your normal energy pool already and the non elite dmg spells have to long castingtimes and/or recast times to make them worthwhile. The only exception here would be the mind blast/rodgort's invocation combo and even that one is easily outdamaged by a simple searing flames build (at least assuming no burning immunity :o). Beetlejuice 21:45, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, melandru dervs are bad for bsurge, but that's a whole 'nother can of overpoweredness. Kinda reminds me of the suggestion for an anti-spell aegis - a new skill with the same stats as aegis, but instead of giving a 50% block chance, it gives a 50% chance to make targeted spells fail. Kinda like how Melandru gives a 100% chance to make conditions fail.
 * Regardless, there's a huge difference between mb/ri and sf - one requires four skills for emanagement, one doesn't. :/ -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 01:22, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Tbh, Mind Blast is probably the best Ele Elite in the game. BJ's suggestion is simply terrible. Yeah, let's just make SF/RI do 300 damage, so the entire game can be about shitty-ass caster spikes "3, 2, 1!". No thanks, I'll just go play WoW. Besides, skills such as RI/SF/SH are one of the leading causes of GW failing.

I still wonder why people even give suggestions. Here is my reasoning: -- Readem 03:47, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Izzy doesn't care about your ideas. 98% of them are radical beyond words, and would just make the game worse.
 * Every skill cannot be fucking good. Stop trying. Some skills are just bound to fail.
 * Why do people who play PvE/RA exclusively even bother to contribute? You have Ursan-way/Imbagons/thousands of sweets/shitty-ass random builds that works in RA (because everything works there).
 * 95% of the GW population, ARE NOT GOOD AT THIS GAME.
 * In response to Beetlejuice's comment, Elementalists have serious problems in PvP, Elementalists do not have problems in PvE, but Mesmers do. PvE elementalists have Eruption, Sandstorm, Unsteady Ground and wards in Earth Magic, Breath of Fire, Fireball, Glowing Gaze, Mark of Rodgort, Meteor Shower, Searing Heat, Searing Flames and Teinai's Heat in Fire Magic, Blurred Vision, Deep Freeze, Glowing Ice, Ice Spikes, Maelstrom and Ward Against Harm in Water Magic and even Air Magic has Blinding Flash, Blinding Surge, Enervating Charge, Glimmering Mark and Shell Shock. PvE Necromancers have Blood is Power, Spoil Victor and Vampiric Swarm in Blood Magic, Enfeebling Blood, Meekness, Reckless Haste, Shadow of Fear, Spiteful Spirit, Weaken Armor and Well of Darkness in Curses, minions, Death Nova, Deathly Swarm, Entropy's Grasp and Rotting Flesh in Death Magic and Soul Reaping. PvE Rangers have Throw Dirt and passive Energy management in Expertise, Barrage, Broad Head Arrow, Burning Arrow, Screaming Shot and Volley in Marksmanship and Apply Poison, Choking Gas and Poison Tip Signet in Wilderness Survival. PvE mesmers have one decent nuke (Cry of Pain), unsustainable single-target shutdown skills such as Ineptitude and Power Block and single-target hexes which are generally outperformed in PvE by other professions' multi-target hexes. PvE Mesmers are better off than PvE assasins or PvE Ritualists, but they're still at a disadvantage. -- Gordon Ecker 06:17, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Blinging Surge: Target foe is covered in gold jewelry and moves and attacks 90% slower. That foe's interface language changes to ebonics. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 07:41, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Corrected. -- Gordon Ecker 07:54, 9 January 2008 (UTC)


 * That's not true, at least not for high lvl pve. 95% of the spells you listed here won't be seen there. The AoE DoTs are unusable in hard mode (well, at least not worth the trouble) and anything but meteor shower, searing flames and liquid flame will drop your damage. And all of them are armor respecting. Which means against lvl 28-30 enemies you will do only a small fraction of the nominal damage. So in reality an sf can do as low as 1/3rd of the damage of one cry. Do a DoA hardmode run with the traditional Ele setup and then do one with mesmers spiking with energy surge, arcane echo, cry. You will never wanna take elementalists again. Enemies drop so fast that you do not even need an ss, which is especially nice for inferno because that opens up a very handy slot for the flesh golem. That people still think that elementalists do big damage against lvl 30 monsters and that a lot of mesmers still think they get taken because of empathy and backfire doesn't change the fact that a cry spike is about the scariest you can pull of in tank&spank groups by far.
 * And actually i am not even asking for making elementalists more powerful although they are vastly outclassed by messmers in the nuking department now. All i was talking about is bringing all those never used non elites a bit more in line with sf so that they are an option. Right now the only Ele nukes you will see in high lvl pve are searing flames, liquid flame and glowing gaze (the later obviously not for its awesome nuking potential but for its energy management). Everything else has a to long castingtime to fill the gaps in searing flames or a way to long recast to be your main damage spell. Of course the easier approach would be to say "sf is overpowered, nerf it". But seeing how mesmers perform in pve and seeing how physicals perform in pvp damagewise i can't see that to be the case. Beetlejuice 09:25, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well... when a team of SF eles in HA cause the faces of r12 players to melt off just by looking at them... I'd say it's a touch overpowered. Regardless, it's good to see people not relying on gimmicky nukers (even if you've moved on to gimmicky mesmer nukers :p). I'd still consider bringing a bsurge for melee enemies in balanced groups, though. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 09:31, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

@Readem: Where did you get that i want to push sf and ri damage? My point was that those are probably the only ones balanced and all the rest needs some rebalancing. And i was also with you that mind blast is the best of the elementalist emanagement skills. Maybe you should read the posts first you go rampage on. So...
 * 100% of Readem, YOU ARE NOT GOOD AT READING :o). Beetlejuice 09:42, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * We are trying to help make this game better than it already is. Let us decide wheter or not we're wasting our time, don't do it for us. Please. Nicky Silverstar 09:58, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Hard mode isn't the only high-end PvE out there, there's also elite missions, the underworld, the fissure of woe and the harder dungeons. Ebon Battle Standard of Honor adds up to 15 armor ignoring bonus damage to every non-armor ignoring damage packet inflicted by allies within its' range. In both normal mode and hard mode, Blinding Flash outperforms Ineptitude, Blurred Vision and Enervating Charge outperform all Mesmer physical shutdown skills, Searing Flames outperforms every Mesmer degeneration skill except Conjure Nightmare and Ice Spikes and Deep Freeze outperform Shared Burden. The problem is that elementalists do mesmers' jobs better in both modes, while mesmers only do elementalists' jobs slightly better in hard mode. I don't think Mesmers need more damage in PvE, I just think that they need some decent shutdown skills so that they can do their own job instead of trying to be elementalists. -- Gordon Ecker 08:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

@BJ: SF/RI already does too much damage. Making other skills as imbalanced as they, would only make the game more terrible (balance-wise) than it already is. Being unable to read may actually benefit me in this case, as reading your post makes me lose faith in humanity. I guess we are even. Oh, and capitals r gud, so i herd.

@Nicky: Time and time again, you have proven yourself incompetent to make such a decision. However, if you wish to continue such folly, feel free. Logic isn't for everyone.

@Gordon: I agree in many respects. However, I think mesmers just need their skills to function properly in PvE. For example, Diversion and Blackout, have little or no effect in PvE, making them virtually worthless. Monsters have a limitless supply of energy, making edenial mediocre at best. These are also factors, to take into consideration. -- Readem 08:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for proofing my point :o) Beetlejuice 23:26, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * @Gordon: You miss my point, completely. First of all when i talk about high end PvE i am talking about elite missions in hardmode, neither elite missions in normal mode nor explorables in hard mode. None of the skills you mentioned i ever saw there and actually with the common tank&spank approach to those areas none of them is needed.
 * I am completely with you, and already wrote that above, that mesmers should have been given pve shutdown skills instead of nukes. The problem is, that would not have been enough to make them a valuable slot in a high end pve group, because all you need as shut down right now is meteor shower. And even that only if you go for dps, if you have a spike group you don't need shutdown at all. So with giving out aoe shutdown skills as pve skills to mesmers they also would have had to make some of the key healers in elite missions knock down immune. But that seems to have been to much work, so they just handed out the big nukes.
 * And you are wrong if you think mesmers outnuke eles only by a bit. Against lvl 28 and 30 foes that is quite a lot. And you will have a hard time to find lower lvl enemies even in normal mode in elite missions. Cry does up to 3 times the damage of searing flames and casts much faster too. Belief me, i have done it lots of times both ways. Having mesmers around for nuking is just much faster than having Eles around now that cry is out. Beetlejuice 23:26, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * @Readem. Why thank you, I was beginning to worry you wouldn't allow me to waste my time. I'd say I love you, but you'd probably use that against me. Nicky Silverstar 10:47, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

(reset indent) back to original topic (before all the ranting about mesmers), I think Ether Prodigy would be a lot more usable if the "lose all enchantments" clause was taken away from the skill since you need attunements as an elementalist. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 00:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with you about the enchantment removal part, but isn't the whole idea of elite energy management to bypass the need for normal energy management? It won't ever be good if it needs support from another skill, Attunement + Glyph of Lesser Energy will always outshine it, simply because they're not elite. Nicky Silverstar 08:15, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You forget, Protective Spirit...Spirit Bond...etc (stuff that matters way more than attunements). Using elite energy management shouldn't mean being a pain the rear to your monks. If anything, the least they could do is "lose all "Elementalist attunements and Earth Magic enchantments (stops stone flesh, kinetic armor spam)" "or "Elementalist enchantments" only. I mean the lose all enchantments part invalidates every earth magic enchantment, flame djinn's haste/storm djinn's haste/armor of mist for running, Aura of Restoration, Mystic Regen, and every monk prot. There's no reason to use this nowadays as risky as it is with not stoppable heal loss (with 8-10 energy storage you'll take around 100-200 damage at max energy) when Heal Party eles aren't as strong a template now that Healer's Boon is out and Aegis is earshot. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 01:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I did not forget, you only mentioned attunements, which I personally think shouldn't have to be used when using elite energy management. I totally agree with you on the rest of the remove enchantments bit. Nicky Silverstar 23:06, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

At this point I would want ANet to remove all the Elite energy management skills (or all underpowered/unused skills) from PvP and make them usable in PvE. Then the PvP players can have their balance and PvE players can have their fun.