Feedback talk:User/Tha Reckoning/Aura of the Lich

The old one was kinda sucky, except for in a few niche builds. You also might want to make the page a bit longer, perhaps even making a point. ~Shard  04:37, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That was a bit mean, Shard. But he's right, a revert would be a step in the wrong direction. Plus, if minion teams ever do become a large problem - there are pretty powerful counters that fit pretty well in balanced groups. Banishing Strike and Holy Spear come to mind, since they affect large areas and are quite cheap. [[Image:User Bathory Spirit to Flesh.jpg|18px]] Bathory   talk  06:10, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's hard enough running balanced as it is, with all the gimmicky crap out there, you really can't afford to have an anti minion slot. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 09:16, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That's your defense? That's it? "I don't want to make room for one skill to help against this gimmick build that's everywhere so they should nerf it in to the fucking ground"? Your defense is threadbare, friend. [[Image:User Bathory Spirit to Flesh.jpg|18px]] Bathory   talk  09:20, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * So, you want to run a balanced team, that has to sacrifice a skill slot for every gimmick out there? Okay, I want you to make a balanced team, with counters to hexway, iway, sway, neo sway, mathway, legoway, paragay, etc etc etc etc etc. Balanced is packed full of everything it can be packed full of. Thank you for proving my point, by thinking that teams should just accept that gimmicks are gimmicks, try to counter all of them simultaneously, and move on. That is probably the reason that the game is so imbalanced, because people like you just accept that they are there, thinking it's okay for some kid that has never played the game before, wiki some minion farm build, go to HA, and win halls 10 times a day, thrashing r10 people that have been playing for four years. Doesn't that sound wrong? I didn't say nerf it to the ground, but when the gates open and a team can rush you with 20 minions or more, and just keep making them over and over and over until your map is so full of minions that you wish you had brought a frag grenade and your team is literally wiping to small packets of damage from more minions than there are combined players on the map, the skill needs to be tweaked. This shouldn't even be a pvp suggestion, since minions don't belong in pvp. You say it is nerfing it into the ground, and yes, it is, for pvp, and that is exactly what it needs, minions belong in pve. --  Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]]
 * The whole point of balanced is that they can counter everything by having a strong foundation Talamare 09:39, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Took the words right out of my mouth, Talamare. If r10s are getting rolled by gimmicks, I'm going to have to question how they got r10 in the first place. [[Image:User Bathory Spirit to Flesh.jpg|18px]] Bathory   talk  09:40, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * With all the gimmicks out there, how can you question how anyone has r10? I bet there are people who can get r10 before they walk. A strong foundation does not save you from how broken some of those builds I named are. I stand by what I said, minions do NOT belong in pvp, a team should NOT have to build to counter them. The ideas I presented are perfectly fine for pve, which is where minions belong. Honestly, yes, the ideas remove the skill from pvp, which is the general idea of the suggestion, because minions do not belong in pvp. It is PVP for a reason, NOT Player Versus Minions. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 09:55, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

(Reset) Wait, wait. You're saying gimmicks are bad because people running gimmicks are beating people who earned their titles running gimmicks? Bathory  talk  09:56, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Stop being slow on purpose. I was pointing out that your statement that all r10's are experienced is flawed. Gimmicks are bad because toddlers can beat experienced players. My point stands, and you just wasted space. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 10:33, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * your view is narrow Talamare 10:50, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * My view is not narrow because I believe PvP means that players should fight other players, and not 50 minions. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 19:11, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not being slow at all. You're using circular logic, however, and it's making it pretty hard to converse with you on any level. [[Image:User Bathory Spirit to Flesh.jpg|18px]] Bathory   talk  06:08, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * My logic is not circular at all. I don't believe minions belong in pvp. You do (for some reason). You are trying and failing to convince me that my idea is bad. You are also changing the subject a lot, and attempting to point out holes in my logic that aren't there. Bottom line, you haven't countered my idea in any way. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 13:58, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "Hurrr pvp isnt minyunz" isn't really a good reason to nerf this. Tbh it has several very major counters that make it plain bad in the first place, not least of which is it's own terrible minion AI. This skill is plain bad in it's current form (pvp standpoint) and nerfing it would accomplish basically nothing outside of RA.--118.90.78.237 16:49, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it totally wouldn't abolish those minion teams in HA that run at you with more minions than you can count on all of your teams fingers and toes. PvP is called PVP for a reason, meaning someone shouldn't win because six people rolled echo aura of the bitch for gg. I mean, if you want to work at learning to play well, only to go in and lose to 50x minions, that's fine for you, but you really should raise the bar. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 21:45, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree as long as it doesn't effect PvE. :( --Nectarines 21:52, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It won't you can still make hella minions in there with this, my point was that you can't get six of these together, make like 30 minions before a match, and just lol mob the other team. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 21:55, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Merely removing the fact that a minion is spawned with no corpse would solve a lot of issues. I gave up on trying to enter HA after I came up against 2 minion armies on my only 2 tries. Shadow Shadow_Runner_sig_1.jpg  Runner  22:03, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that was almost exactly what the suggestion is. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 22:10, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Tbh, Talamare, you are ignorant. You do not know what balanced means. It means quite a bit of things, but it certainly doesn't mean "can counter anything lolz".

Bathory, you are also ignorant. Suggesting to take a single skill jsut to counter a single gimmick you just might encounter is buildwars. Please learn what this term means before continuing the discussion (although it's been a while, so...). Your statement about highranked teams, well, is again wuite ignorant. You don't accumulate that much fame by running only gimmicks, those people have been playing GW since the dawn of time, and have mastered the game. It is unfair that when they lose to newcomers just because of broken skills and mechanics (although the problems with the fame system are a different case entirely).

Reckoning, stop being a dick when you explain your reasons. You are entirely justified in calling for a nerf, but when you fail to communicate your idea directly, you waste a decent suggestion and precious time of everyone. As the saying goes, there is no misunderstanding, just miscommunication. -- NUKLEAR   IIV  19:32, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not just things in wiki, making me irritated, so granted I have used this as a bit of an outlet, but when I am getting constantly shot down by counterarguments that make no sense, you have to admit it does get zzz. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 20:23, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, because you are the beacon of understanding and make tons of sense. All I'm saying is, If this skill is a problem for you, prepare for it. It is not a big problem balance-wise and no action should be taken to reflect that. Besides, Nuklear, I don't think he's acting this way. He's just naturally an asshat. [[Image:User Bathory Spirit to Flesh.jpg|18px]] Bathory   talk  22:21, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Case in point, useless uninformed statements. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 22:42, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Not really. AotL spikes have pressure from minions but also have a lot of skills that take a while to cast. In GvG, you can split on them to pretty good effect. In HA I can't see them being too strong anywhere but annhilation. King of the Hill maybe, but with AoE being as powerful and static in HA as it has been for months the minions probably aren't too influential. I'll admit, I haven't done either in a while - but I've seen and played in AotL spikes in both before, and don't recall any major changes to Death Magic since then. They're not overpowering. Oh, and on you being an asshat - I've only experienced your temperament through these wiki spaces, in which you have been a major dick the whole time. Useless, maybe. Uninformed? Not really. [[Image:User Bathory Spirit to Flesh.jpg|18px]] Bathory   talk  22:51, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Stop making arguments, you've already been proven wrong. Also, don't admit to being uninformed, and then insinuate that you're not. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 22:57, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * baby go qqq [[Image:User Bathory Spirit to Flesh.jpg|18px]] Bathory   talk  22:58, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Haha thank you for proving me right. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 22:59, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * (Insert steryotypical NPA Line here) Da Sonic Sunday User Da Sonic Sig2.png 23:01, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You've been saying that for the entire page. Why would it be correct now? You're a whiner, plain and simple. <3 It's fine though. Not like any of it really matters. You can think you're right and important if you like. [[Image:User Bathory Spirit to Flesh.jpg|18px]]  Bathory   talk  23:02, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, keep digging your grave. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 23:03, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Altho for the most part id have to agree with Reckoning, Bathory is right with his last comment, if your going to say that, at least explain how he is digging his own grave Da Sonic Sunday User Da Sonic Sig2.png 23:15, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * What I mean by that is that Bathory is a substandard communicator, which I find hilarious as the whole point of the wiki is to communicate. Anyway, he is substandard because he resorts to insulting people after being proven wrong. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 23:22, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Reckoning, go take a chill pill.

Barthory, arguments like "If this skill is a problem for you, prepare for it " do not apply to balance arguments. Please, learn and understand what Build Wars means if you are going to keep up this childish banter. If you want, I can explain it to you, but on your talkpage, mmkay? -- NUKLEAR   IIV  15:25, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Alternative
OK, this skill really could do with some sort of nerf or rework, but a revert is not really sensible imo as this is a lot more viable now than it used to be (except in certain builds) and lets MMs venture where they couldn't before (e.g. RA, PvP with low corpse rates etc). Instead why not simply limit the minion count or something, like this:
 * 10 2 30
 * Elite Enchantment Spell. Exploit up to 3 corpses within earshot and animate an additional level bone horror for each one. You also animate a level  bone servant. You can only have one bone servant at once. For  seconds, your Death Magic attribute is increased by 1.

This would add a unique kind of minion which you could only ever have one of, meaning that repeated uses of the skill wouldn't build up an army. It would also mean you could never get more than four minions at once with this skill. In exchange, it's a bit easier to use (lower cost and recharge). Anyway the point is that a change like this would keep the skill viable but prevent massive minion factories. 86.27.179.159 13:47, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * For PvP only that'd be cool, but it would destroy all other minion spells in PvE, 7 minions per cast lol -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 20:09, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Owait I misread, but still, 4 in one is crazy. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 20:10, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * At the moment it's all corpses in earshot. That means you can theoretically get as many as your Death Magic allows in one cast. This suggestion basically means that it's limited to 4 in one, and that you can only ever have one "bonus" one. Thus, in PvP, you can get one minion each before the match. The flip side is that with a faster recharge you can actually make minions a little more reliably during a fight, and that the one you get at the start is a bit tougher than normal (though the other ones are weaker, meaning normal minion summoning spells aren't totally obselete). 188.74.101.228 19:47, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Still, I think we should strike "Minions in PvP" from the record, because it is an oxymoron. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 20:58, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Minions in PvP
I don't mind them as a concept. What I do mind is that having a billion of them is just retarded. You can win matches just because no one on the other team can wade through them. It's like rspike: having one thing that's a too good at what it does goes usually isn't a LULMASSIVE ISSUE, but they climb up the brokenness scale way too damn fast when you add them. There's a mechanic that severely limits the usefulness of minions in PvP: they require a corpse to create. If a team doesn't take deaths, an MM doesn't exist. At least, with this one exception. That, imo, is why it's broken: it destroys the line's inherent balancing factor. Now that we'e established why it's broken, let's look at why it's also OP: it makes minions too fast. I don't mean the casting time, I mean LOL CORPSE EXPLOSION. You shouldn't be able to make 4, 5, 6 minions at once. One minion is a very counterable situation: kill the damn thing and move on. No one's gonna heal or prot it. Six? Not so much. At that point, they're already a threat, and we're talking about devoting a big effort to putting them down; that shouldn't be the case. imho, the ideal minion master would be something like Zoldark The Unholy (though, obviously, with significantly less-imba minions). Maintaining minions should require active care. Getting damage out of them should have a real expensive. Ideally, minion mastery would be something like beast mastery: minions should be more or less useless without their master working them. So what should change? Well, firstly, fix the broken aspect: it needs to require corpses to work, end of story. Then, bring the imba part back in line: exploit a corpse, animate two minions. Give it an elite-worthy cost/cast/cool. Then (and this one's important), reduce the level of the minions. Make them weak: level 9-12, max. Why? Because they're supposed to be weak without active support. Finally, adjust some minion support skills. Give MMs some toys like Zoldark's (though, again, significantly less-imba). Blood of the Master is well done; that should be the standard.  is for  Raine,   etc.  12:58, 3 March 2010 (UTC)