User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Overpowered Skills/Monk/Archive 3

I'll just quote myself from Guru:

"I think this is the main source of all evil, infact, this skill might be Satan himself. Whenever there is SoD on a target and you have no enchant removal available, the target can be considered 'cold' for any kind of physical pressure. Minimal cast time and low recharge with a moderate duration is way too overpowered. 10 energy in the times of GoLE / Divine Spirit is just no real drawback. It's funny that some teams still bring RC, which is rubbish compared to SoD. Make this skill 15 energy and it would be fine (i have no problem if this beast dies again)."

On top of that, it allows monks to cast Aegis without having to worry much about rangers. -Void 13:39, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Low recharge isn't the problem, using this skill correctly in GvG already stress a monk's energy enough. A monk will usually cast it everytime one of his teammate is being targeted by a D,W,A and if it is reloading and the opponent starts to go after another target, he will cast guardian/shield of absorption/protective spirit if a spike is likely to come. I said everytime, and made this description kinda systematic, because a monk running this skill is supposed to minimize and discourage the opponents to spike therefore he should act everytime somebody might be in danger (just look at Andkun Dust [HAnD], i think he's still playing with this build, at least he was a couple weeks ago). A monk with this skill doesn't have a good range of utility beyond trying to minimize physical damages (I prefer teams that run this skill than teams that chaing Aegis).In such conditions i think i'm not wrong if i say that running such a build is tight on energy (you'll need something like GoLE) and besides there is an easy counter to this, target switching when you see the one you're attacking gets enchanted by SoD (this skill's animation is one of the most noticeable), that leaves you about 5s to organize a spike : one thing you could do is warning your teammates you're going to spike XX but instead go on YY, YY gets enchanted by SoD, you get back to XX and attack. This way you avoid SoD, the 1/4 cast time is needed or this skill would be useless to prevent a spike, 10E is really enough as said before and the reload doesn't matter because even if it was less, monks couldn't use it that often because of its cost, and making it 8s reload would hurt its effectiveness too much. This skill isn't the only way that stress a monk's energy, it's not like if he was only using this skill, spamming Guardian/soa/ps is really tough, energy denial really makes this monk's job pretty hard/impossible. Just play with a well organised team, with a good timing between spikes and enchantment removal and you won't fail against SoD that often (signet of humility helps too) :p You don't care if SoD gets to hell, i care even for only one reason : diversity offered to monks. You were complaining about the fact that ppl under SoD can't be disrupted, that's meaningless, it is just like if you were complaining about the fact that Warriors can't hit beyond blindness because Air E spam Blinding Surge which can easily be countered by diversion/signet of humility etc... and that is much more overpowered than SoD because Elementalists doesn't really have to worry about energy while monks do.    Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 13:59, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for this long feedback Azul, but i know perfectly well what you can and can't do against it. We won two monthlies running this skill and both my monks tell me how ridiculously overpowered it is. -Void 14:50, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Then i don't think the same way your monks do :p  Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 15:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll just go for a clarification and retract my last thoughts concerning Blinding Surge, since it concerns mainly one target excluding Melandru derv' whereas SoD concerns everybody attacking (physically) a target  Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 15:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Overpowered? LOL! It's only overpowered in comparison to the current Meta. Playing monk myself i actually really like this skill as it shines through as a good skill when played by a good monk, but on a bad monk its almost useless. RC is very forgiving, they arganise a melee spike and even if ur slow and catch it at the end of the spike it can save the target. SoD on the otehr hand requires you to watch the field a lot more, figure out what and when they are going to do, and Pre-Prot! Good monks love this skill and with good reason, it allows them to shine through. It's brought at least some diversity into the meta, Ok so the meta is very quickly pushing to LoD and SoD backline, but a lot of teams still run RC and IMO, i'd prefer an SoD meta than the RC meta we've had for so long.
 * WHat i'm saying is that yes this skill is very powerfull, but only when used correctly. Because of this i dont see it as overpowered, it just does what it's meant to when used well. And i also think that it may slowly caase a shift in meta from the heavy melee that we are all seeing at the moment. -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 15:17, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill is not Overpowered. It is the perfect example of an Active defense skill that requires skill to get the most out of it. Shendaar 14:32, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * No offense, but as some people here seem to lack high-level GvG experience and think it's funny to call SoD overpowered, i'll go a bit more into detail:


 * With SoD, monks have a 'make this target immune against physical pressure'-button. While you can interrupt Aegis and Wards or draw blindness, the only viable counter here is a target swap. It's just not possible to strip enchants for pressure play, you need all your removal for Attunements/Conjures/etc. and spikes. As melee player, i feel like a donkey running after a carrot: Make some hits, SoD goes up, swap target.


 * Monks should not have access to another layer of defense, which is so ridiculously effective.


 * SoD blows all other prot elites from the table: You end up with a bar that can remove multiple hexes, a condition removal that heals for ~100 and an elite that kills physical characters - you can easily fit in Aegis as well. Why on earth would i ever want to run a different bar as monk, unless i fight under Tranquility?


 * I'm just sick of working hard with your team to create a timeframe where i can actually pressure stuff as melee (Ward/Aegis/Miss-Hexes interrupted) and everything is ruined because their SoD prot spams a bit more SoD than normal.


 * I'm just sick of a vent flooded with spike calls every few seconds in order to break a SoD powered backline. -Void 12:23, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * How much of the problem is particular to SoD, and how much is a symptom of the defensive webs that form the basis of the best builds these days? Shield is incredible for its ability to plug the holes in a larger defensive network, to be sure, but without that network, without the Aegises and Wards and blinds, it loses a lot of its luster. What aspects of which skills are the roots of the current crop of problems? I'd really like to know. -Ensign 11:26, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm lacking of high level GvG experience yes, but i'm not sure i'm totally wrong though (i don't find this subject funny btw :p). You say that a monk with SoD on his bar (and the current condition / hex removals etc...) is perfect. However prot monks don't always use SoD even if it is the perfect prot build, some still use RC (most have somebody with Aegis in their team though for a similar effect). Don't make this skill more powerfull than he actually is (i'm not saying he isn't powerfull, i'm saying he isn't overpowered imo). By the way, which changes would you like to make in order this skill to be more balanced ? Besides if SoD dominates the current meta, why don't people start using less physical pressure but more degen/condis pressure ? And if most ppl start doing so, RC monks will pop out everywhere. I agree that it is more difficult to remove this than the other usual melee counters, but there are still counters and if monks spam SoD you could time a Diversion on the prot monk while you start going after a target. If SoD is nerfed (well if it is, we don't know if it will still be worth using it so what i'll say is to be considered hypothetic), you'll end up with prot Monks running RC for most of them and it will become the "new" perfect prot bar atm. I'm just thinking about it right now, SoD is kinda Guardian in its elite form, it could either become Shield Guardian in its elite form after a rework (lowering it to 50% and changing the armor bonus for a small healing for example), might be nice to think about it this way if there are changes to make (even if i think this skill should remain unchanged)  Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 13:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes this skill is effective, no-one would try to state otherwise, however there are many counters and more than you simply pointed out above. If you're wasting you're enchant removal on attunements then that's probably the first reason you are having so many problemes with it. But the single biggest flaw this skill has is that like you said, it's always put straight onto any target that takes almost any melee pressure, it's so predictable! You know it's coming so you can use that to you're advantage, either by using Shatter Enchantment or simply having an effective mesmer who can Diversion it. The skill is very powerfull (and people may say overpowered) against the current melee heavy meta, but a change in the meta wouldnt be a bad thing right now, and SoD is one of the more skilled choices for a monk bar. The more we can make the game about skill and not the bars they have, the better the game will become. -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 13:16, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * When i read stuff like "wasting enchant removal on attunements" and "using shatter to your advantage" i know it's completely pointless to continue this discussion here, because you just have no clue. I only would like to know what Izzy thinks about this skill, because currently vD is trying alternatives in case of a nerf. It there won't be a nerf, we can stop bothering with that. -Void 13:39, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah Void - tell Anita to stop being such a bad mesmer and get some lessons from this guy - or just kick Anita and take Chronic on instead. ^^  Also, since when have we been in a melee-heavy meta?  Last night I'm pretty sure the meta was heavy in a hexes and expose sins, rit spikes and heroways, with the occasional balanced team thrown in to stop me killing myself. Or maybe two warriors counts as "heavy melee" these days?  Errr 13:28, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Well obviously you're in a "i'm to good to have a real discussion" mood so i'm not going to try to change any opinions, but IMO yes compared to a lot of recent times this is a Melee heavy meta in comparison. If it wasn't then people wouldn't be bringing SoD, and it wouldnt be an issue. My definition of heavy meta was based not on the number of melee characters, but the source of the damage. Ritspike is gimmick and is getting nerfed anyways so forget that, and heroway is another gimmick that hopefully should be nerfed as well. Ok so my statement of using shatter to you're advantages was very simplisitc purely because i didn't know who you were and i could have been addressing anyone. and as for the comment below maiking this a 1 second cast that would be the biggest nerf you could do to this skill and it would simply be lost never to be seen again. -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 14:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, this skill is a bit overpowered. I personally would like see the armor buff completely removed for starters.  In a mixed spike w/ lightning orb, I would like to see that damage go through (where as PS/SB are fine alternatives to caster damage).  Rather than make the energy 15, I would probably rather see it's length of time shortened to something like 3 seconds of duration.  Also:  noob players please stop posting when you don't know what they are talk about.  If you are not in a top 50 guild, stop posting about skills in GvG gameplay. --Black mischief 09:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Armor buff removed yeah, i wouldn't argue against it. However your "noob players" actually means everybody which is not in a top 50 guild is a noob if he speaks about a skill used in high-end GvG, which makes you loose lots of your credibility. No matter if you play GvG or not, every good idea can be submitted, anyway it's Izzy that makes the changes, he knows the current meta and is able to see if this idea is good or bad for GvG and other games types, and if the guy that submitted it is more concerned by his little RA's meta or high-end GvG's :p Remember this wiki is open-minded and not reserved for elite players, if somebody submits a stupid idea you can just laugh at him, he'll ridiculise himself if you want. Let's say, only ideas with mature reflexion would be considered whereas others won't be listened   Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 10:36, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Game balance is driven primarily by GvG, though other areas are considered. This skill's biggest problem today is specifically how it is used in GvG.  The only people lacking credibility in this section are the individuals who are disagreeing w/ Void.--Black mischief 16:53, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Im not a pro Warrior at all, but Im doing pretty well for only a few days of that class within a balanced team. I agree with Void in that SoD is far too easy to pass around to different targets with so many favourable energy managements around, and this negates most spike damage, making it impossible to keep up defence and offense. RC was always a fun elite to fight against. Im not a pro balancer either, but I think this skill should have a 1 second cast like Guardian, which was popular enough as a non elite choice with RC, before the SoD meta. If it was a 1 second cast, it could be targeted by Mesmers and at least be shutdown or make it possible to kill on spikes. For some reason even if they get SoD up late, like when your using Executioners, you still cant kill them. Maybe that 15...27 armor really makes a difference as well, but I wouldnt know.
 * Actually a very good mesmer can disrupt 3/4s skills, just like a very good ranger too btw (however he must be pretty close to his target). This is particularly difficult to do if it is unexpected by if you expect somebody to use RC then just stay here and with good training and with some luck too (no lag, nobody to annoy you atm) you'll get it.So if you nerf it in order it to be "disruptable"you could just make it 3/4. Moreover i agree with Chronicinability, SoD with 1s casting time is meh, that's evil. If you want to nerf it, just change its effect not its casting time, i think this skill should keep its "anti-spike" effect. Besides the difference is here, if SoD becomes 1s cast time, i think people will just leave it and take Guardian instead : faster reload, 5cost instead of 10, "just" a loss of 25% block and armor as well as a mere 2s duration something that RC can imo handle with DW, Bleeding or Poison  Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 15:48, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * By itself I don't think SoD is that much of problem(It still cost 10e afterall ... Granted GolE helps a lot). If it wasn't for the gazillion other layers of defense that you have to deal with, it probably wouldn't be so bad. A 3/4 cast time would be acceptable, but would it really deal with the actual problem? Shendaar 16:19, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * SoA was changed like this, and its still a popular choice on LoD monks and some prot monks as well.--Renegade 14:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Look, there are certain realities that you all have to understand. First of all when you talk about SoD as a counter to "physical pressure", realize that outside of horrid gimmicks like mass sear-way, there is no other form of pressure.  Even hex builds require physicals to do the killing in the end.  Saying that SoD counters a physical heavy meta is meaningless because we've been playing in that meta forever.  Secondly, the energy cost doesn't mean anything as it stands.  Consider the following situation:  You've stripped/interrupted their aegis, stopped their ward and/or dshotted/humilitied their bsurge.  Your physicals now have maybe a 10-15sec window to pressure and score some kills.  Accomplishing this took significant time, effort, and coordination on the part of your team.  You should be rewarded, right?  WRONG, because every time you try and unload for a spike SoD goes on.  Their monks' energy reserves are high because all that passive defense means that they haven't been strained, so they can EASILY spam for the 10-15 seconds it takes for the window to close and their team to stabilize.  This skill really needs a higher recharge, I think 8r would do the trick. --Symbol 02:15, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Well i think it comes down the the following problem of fighting versus a team with layers of passive and active defenses. i think the amount of passive defense in the meta is allowing monks the cushion from which they can run more difficult active defenses like SoD. I think the great majority of SoD monks rely on the teams passive defenses to fill the gaps between the 5 second recharges of SoD. Especially in cases where they come across a very aggressive frontline who decide to power through the midline by spiking every 3-4 seconds making it incredibly hard for SoD to catch each and every spike. The thing is, i think it takes a good amount of experience and coordination for a team to strike a midline/backline like this. Its a very aggressive tactic and does not leave room for much more communication on vent other than switching targets and calling for enchant removal. Likewise, protting and healing against an enemy frontline who is continually switching and bursting on targets every 3-4 seconds is a very intensive job to do. But because of the difficulty and intensity of these types of plays... they are extremely fun things to do. If you pull off a successful chain kill against a SoD monk backline you outwitted the defensive measure of the enemy team. You outplayed their defense by exploiting the 5 second recharge of SoD. Likewise if you are monking against this type of burst play, it feels great if you had the ability to SoD the enemy warriors targets before they had a chance to do any dmg. And if you can manage your energy long enough to last until the enemy team loses its momentum, your reward is the fact that their own backline will be heavily tested to defend themselves against a counter attack because they had just spent a great amount of energy and time keeping their offense clean and alive during their aggressive play. The problem with the above situation is that ive totally ignored the other layers of defense that are used by midlines and flaggers. Things like aegis chains and wards. Theres nothing more frustrating than being on top of a monk thats sitting on 10 health but you miss your attacks because an aegis cast by a flagger on the other side of the radar blocked your attacks. The passive defenses like aegis dont reward satisfaction from their effectivess or their use in the same way that active measures do. I think the amount of fire and forget defensive measures should be cut down to a minimum since they make active play so much slower. There has already been talk of hexes been changed... aegis being changed... those alone will have a huge impact on the game. If aegis didnt have a 50% block at all attributes alot more dmg would punch through. If aegis was limited to earshot range, aegis chains would have to become a part of the midline/backline rather than as part of the backline/flagger combo. Fitting an aegis chain on a midline will force teams to drop wards... meaning the triple layer of defense with blind, aegis, wards will be gone. It might not be a huge reduction in flag stand defense but with 1 missing i think we will see a big difference. Giving SoD an 8 second recharge ON TOP of these various other potential changes may be a bit of overkill. What other viable forms of active prot do prot monks have? RC is not prot, its more heal. Life sheath is woefully slow and prevents just under 200 dmg every 7 seconds. ZB is a heal. SoR is basically a heal. AoE neither heals nor prots... and Amity? Nice joke. Mark of protection? 45 second recharge. SoD is the only elite that allows prot monks to actually do what their name suggests... protect people from dmg. If any change is needed i think it should be incredibly small. Make it 1/2 second cast or 6-7 second recharge, but id much rather see passive defense hit first--Lorekeeper 12:48, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think people here just don't realize, that nerfing Wards, BSurge or Aegis is the wrong approach. Against these layers of defense exist effective counter strategies, but not against SoD. Do you know what will happen if some of the former three will get hit too hard? The stand elementalist will vanish and top teams will add more physical characters. Some teams already run stuff like that, and it's extremely effective.
 * Even if i repeat myself, Shield of Deflection gives monks a skill that is too powerful (similar to the .25 SoA a few months ago). Strong and effective misses/blocks/snares are tools of the midline via blinds, hexes, wards, Aegis. That has been the case since ages, and it was good for the game. If SoD gets killed (and i mean killed), i wanna see the monk that has the balls to cast Aegis at the stand against a team with a ranger and a mesmer. Balanced will end up with one Aegis on the runner, one BSurge and one Ward. The prot monk can choose between RC, Divert and ZB. For me, this sounds like an excellent gaming environment with the right offense/defense ratio. -Void 14:43, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll disagree somewhat on Ward, which has been increasingly difficult to combat in the heavy interrupt metagame. But I agree on Aegis and BSurge, they're strong defenses but strong defenses that teams can and do deal with, and aren't a balance problem but simply strong defensive tools.
 * Shield is clearly the hardest of the 4 to deal with. It doesn't have any single property that is clearly too good, though, it's just strong in pretty much every area with an awesome effect, making the whole a beast.  I won't say that I want to see the skill killed (though if I played frontline in GvG regularly I might ;) ), but it needs to be chipped at somehow. -Ensign 20:53, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Lower block chance to around 65% or so and reduce the armor buff slightly. 76.64.186.175 05:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think that fiddling with the effect a little bit is going to do anything. The skill is either going to make a target cold for X seconds, or it isn't.  If it makes the target cold, it's too good with its current numbers; if it doesn't, the skill isn't even good anymore.
 * The issue with SoD, in comparison with Prot Spirit / Spirit Bond, is that while those latter two skills are of comparable effectiveness at stopping spike damage, they're both weak when it comes to pressuring a target. SoD stops everything, pressure, spike, interrupts, knockdowns; the target is cold almost instantly.  Shield of Absorption is the closest comparable skill, and that thing was sick at .25c even though it took a second or two to kick in.  I'm thinking it might want its 1 second cast time back, or at least .75c, so that it wouldn't be such a crazy anti-spike tool as well as the best pressure killer. -Ensign 23:04, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Have to remember here that only one of the skill you stated is an Elite skill. I do not think having the Elite tag justify a skill being overpowered, but if you are gonna use a skill as your elite, you expect it to get the job done, as well as get it done better than the non-elite skills on your bar. 3/4 cast time is really as high as it should go imo. Shendaar 01:51, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure I know what to do with this spell. It's indeed very powerful, but only in the hands of a competent monk. It's one of the few skills in the game that gets stronger as a better player uses it. Skills like aegis in comparison are mindless spells that almost anyone can play to the same effect. However, SoD is something that rewards player skill, not mindless casting. I would not like to see something that rewards player skill to be out of use. If you don't believe me, just watch how your r3 HA pug or r3000 guild plays SoD and it'll be drastically worse than your average top 20 gvg monk, but the difference is much smaller if they were given aegis and RC to work with, for example. Holymasamune 20:26, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the whole point i made about other forms of passive defense is that SoD is only good in a highly defensive build with multiple layers of defense which force teams to choose what layers to shutdown. I dont its possible within a short time frame to shutdown a bsurge ele with wards, aegis chains and an SoD monk. My mesmer can pleak a ward and divert a bsurge, but once those go down the enemy mesmer will be watching my mesmer like a hawk in case he tries to go for their monk's SoD or LoD next. If my mesmer gets on to a SoD monk straight away, if he manages to divert it, i can be sure that the enemy mesmer or ranger will stop my mesmer from diverting the enemy team's other forms of defense which they now have to totally rely on while SoD comes back. In a hex build, my mesmer has to spend almost all of his time sitting on a curse necro to reduce the amount of hexes the monks need to deal with. This leaves the enemy SoD monk free. If i move my mesmer to try to harass the SoD monk, the enemy necro is then free to hex my frontline. I just think that SoD and the layers of passive defense form this much larger defensive net that is greater than the sum of its parts. SoD on its own is only as good as the prot monk who is using it. If my frontline was facing a team without so much passive defense its only a matter of fake bursting and switching targets between SoD recharges thats needed. i think SoD can be beaten with rapid target switching, its just that passive defenses make rapid target switching quite ineffective anyway since every target you switch to will either have aegis on it... be inside or near a ward... or you might be blind. Of course SoD is great for stopping spikes and pressure, if you telegraph your target way in advance of your contact with it, you should never expect to kill it or for a prot monk to not notice. SoD rewards a prot monk who is aware of an enemy frontline and can judge when they might unleash their adrenaline. But the 5 second recharge and 10e cost rewards a frontline who force the SoD monk to cast it on recharge. I guess i can concede that with a 1/4 second cast time, SoD, being such a powerful skill in general, is incredibly hard to shutdown, diversion/shame/humility being the most effective means to shut it down. Interrupting SoD is practically impossible outside an extremely lucky guess from a ranger up close, which means an SoD monk need not worry about it being interrupted. Perhaps a 3/4 casting time would lower the speed of the skill low enough so that a good mesmer could catch it with a pleak or plock. 1 second cast for SoD would be a bit too much imo. 3/4 second would still allow a monk to catch a spike if he is fast at either preprotting or twitching, a 1 second cast would make the skill almost useless against a non-telegraphed spike and it would only be effective if cast as a preprot or against pressure. Besides with the MoR Power Lock mesmer looming on the horizon, and with cracked armour on its way to buffing spikes versus high armour targets it might be unwise to nerf a monks choice of prots down to RC, ZB and and Divert Hex, none of which are 'proper prot skills' to be honest.-Lorekeeper 00:06, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Rending Touch. This problem is now a whole lot easier to counteract. I think this most recent update really managed to sort out alot of the minor imbalances present.  —ǥrɩɳsɧƿoɲ  〚 ₮ /ḉ〛 14:17, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill is not overpowered, it cost 10 energy for a 75% of blocking attacks for LESS than 10 seconds. This is more of a SPECIALTY skill that works better on defense against physical attacks. If your team consist of all physical damagers then you should not complain that this elite is shutting your team down and instead consider the many counter options for these type of monks. This elite has never stuck my fancy as I prefer using spirit bond as the 10 energy skill and guardian for blocking. --Shadetz X 10:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Hello all. I have to agree, this skill is encroaching on the overpowered ground (I speak as one of my PvE guild's few monks, and as a TA/RAer) Especially when run with Blessed Aura, and a BR necro/PaH Monk and two 15/-1 sets of equipment. I'll agree and it's power, but I think some people need adaptability, and learn to change their bar to fit other people's, rather than pester A-Net to change other people's bars to fit theirs. Although I have no GvG experience to speak of as my own (I watch a game or two here and there), there are stuff that can shut down the Monk, therefore shuttign down the SoD. Maybe a minor debuff in the % block would be fine, but to cripple a skill that has been nigh useless since Prophs came out? Nuh-uh, I actually like it now, where as before it could not even be touched by a 10-foot pole.--69.235.192.208 04:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * SoD is not overpowered...it lasts such a limited duration, that GoLE is necessary for it to be even useful. Part of its effect, does little to nothing, and acts as nothing but a 1/4 ct Guardian. People are running RC now regardless. This skill used to be worthless, now it is in the usable cat. Leave it at that. Readem (talk *gwwcontribs ) 06:29, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree this is a super strong skill and one I've been watching a lot, but keep in mind is very easy for Physicals to rule the meta, and even now we are seeing a lot of 5 physical builds, skills like this can really keep things in check and punish teams for 5 physical builds. In the end it's something I'm keeping my eye on but I have no change planned at this time. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:43, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, this skill does not need deserve to get nerfed because of full melee teams especially when rending touch just got buffed. --Shadetz X 22:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I had an epiphany on this one, I think. First idea: remove armor buff Now it's still a perfect, elite guardian, but it doesn't 1/2 dmg from wildblow and lightning bolt (I don't claim this idea others have posted it. But I think it's not so bad). exciting idea: all your other skills are disabled for 6...2s  (some smart person fix my silly breakpoints please) or all your protection prayers skills are disabled for 5s  (i especially like this one since it pushes multi-spec.) and leave the rest alone. love, Aran 21:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that the armor bonus should be removed. As it is right now, there's no chance of killing a target who has SoD on them without actually removing it. I know this has been said, just want to reinforce this point. --TimeToGetIntense 11:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Make it cost 15 so Glyph doesn't make it free. Problem Solved. At 7-8 second duration, just switch targets and come back later. Shard 02:28, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I still think that SoD is overpowered and the solution for physicals being too strong is somehow nerfing the Paragon's damage output. -Void 15:27, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It isn't overpowered tho, and how does nerfing Paragons affect Evis or AoM? Readem   Warning: Ignore this User if at all possible.  05:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Because you don't get my point: High physical builds are too strong because of Paragons. You can't snare them, you can't really kite, you can't really preprot, they have high dps, strong party buffs and can instantly swap targets. Noone gives a shit about builds with four melees.
 * I'm starting to get tired of arguments with certain individuals who lack high level experience, but talk like knowing the game backwards. -Void 12:35, 12 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yar, I play the game sideways as well void (For teh funz). I believe that nerfing Evis, would nerf physicals...but then again, I am baed at teh game and win PvE. I am getting tired of people who are pro-physical meta, and that think teh r godmode+1. How about we nerf SoD, but take away all martial weapons. Then, they are using their hands! It would be a festival of lulz! Wouldn't that be be awsm, godmode+1? Readem   Hate Mail Goes Here  17:51, 16 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, how does nerfing SoD solve the problem of Physicals being overpowered? I would think that it would do just the opposite. I guess I fail once more... Readem   Hate Mail Goes Here  17:54, 16 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Stop using the word 'Nerf' and use the word 'Balance' Readem, then think it through again. Obviously nerfing SoD alone isn't going to be sufficient. If physicals we're more balanced...then SoD could then become more balanced, which overall, is what is needed. -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 20:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Its quite a shame that the role that paragons were thought to play in the game is so different to the role they DO have. When they were first introduced my guild at the time was testing its party buffing abilities with the then popular thumper+taint pressure build. The paragon added crippling/burning/speed buffs to the frontline, and armour/speedbuffs/energy to the backline. However, as time went by it soon became obvious that the real value in the paragon was its ability to deliver almost warrior-like DPS without the drawbacks that warriors have. Not to mention the constant nerfs to the motivation line of skills. The only attribute lines worth investing in are Command, leadership and Spear mastery. Is it no wonder why spear chuckers are so popular? Constant 25% IAS with 100+ armour, hardly any energy problems, deep wound ability, target switching on the fly that is difficult to detect before the damage arrives, no need to snare targets. Is it any wonder why the meta has become so physical dmg focused around the paragon? Casters just cant compete when you have paragons on the scene. In a physical damage meta, SoD is necessary. RC was necessary in the past because of the condition pressure meta and the physical pressure wasnt nearly as high as today. With the introduction of the dervish and the paragon RC just isnt enough anymore. Dmg mitigation is the name of the game in the face of power creep since nightfall. Once you tone down the paragon's offensive ability, and perhaps the melandru dervish immunity to a significant portion of anti physical defense, the need for such a defensive meta will disappear. Its just sad that warriors and rangers who in the past only had to deal with a few layers of defense, now exist in a meta where several layers of defense are needed because of the introduction of classes like the paragon and the dervish. As much as i might call for a nerf to passive defense, i also realise how necessary it is. There is a reason why layers upon layers of defense have become so popular. The solution? Easiest thing would be to remove the dervish and paragon classes. The best solution this clearly isnt, the best solution requires a complete analysis of the dervish and paragon classes. The dervish was obviously sold on its avatar use. But only 1 avatar sees any real use. 2 out of 4 of the dervish skill lines see hardly any use. If only the class was designed so that each avatar had a collection of corresponding skills, all of which gave that particular avatar more utility to do its own particular job. Its sad that no matter what avatar we use, we usually choose the same attack skills/utility skills to go with it. The dervish class had so much potential but failed to reach it, and has become a one dimensional physical melee class. The paragon was sold on its party buffing abilities, but it did that job too well and got those abilities ether renewelled. So all it got left with are its offensive spear abilities and offensive buffing utilities. The two classes in NF simply turned out to be 2 additional physical dmg classes. Solve that problem or things will never change.--Lorekeeper 15:01, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Wow, back to shitty RC, merely because there are no better alternatives :/. gg Readem  03:47, 3 November 2007 (UTC)