ArenaNet:Skill feedback/Necromancer/Soul Reaping

Shard's Issue 21:28, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Issue: This mechanic is too abusable when used with minions in pvp, fueling a near-limitless energy pool in certain builds.


 * Solution: "Whenever a non-summoned creature dies, you gain 1 energy for each point in Soul Reaping." Then lower the cost of minion-creating spells to compensate.

Discussion

This really removes some of the synergy that death magic is designed around, this is not something we would plan on doing because of that. Izzy @  -' 01:21, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That's unfortunate, because SR is probably the most broken mechanic in the game. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 03:03, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Only in the PvP formats that don't matter. Possible exception of HA, but outside of N/Rt healers, what other necros are really used there?  76.196.239.149 23:48, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

jayce's Issue 09:33, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Issue: Soul Reaping is either a worthless or exploited Primary Attribute when it comes to PvP. Exploited mainly because of its inherent and shared ability among all Necromancers in arenas like HA. Worthless in GvG because things simply do not die when you need them to, without exploiting or manufacturing death. The Necromancer (a core profession) is virtually non-existent in GvG. While some of their skills are potent (only in strong hex builds), Necromancers have almost no other skills that they can bring to the table in terms of both party and self support. Even if they are able to find their way back into GvG, their Primary Attribute in its current form will still be almost useless to them. This is a profession that needs some serious addressing. We have to start somewhere. What better place than Soul Reaping?


 * Solution: 1)Remove the inherent or shared ability. 2)Shuffle skills from other Attributes into Soul Reaping. 3)Make Soul Reaping an active energy management Attribute instead of a passive so that it can be useful in GvG. example: For each point in Soul Reaping, whenever you use a Necromancer skill on a creature, you gain 1% energy of that creature's current energy level(Maximum: Initial Cost of Skill). I realize that an example like this will have an impact on Minions and the maintenance of Minions, but strongly believe that Soul Reaping is a more pressing matter, especially since Minions are not used in GvG because, once again, things not dieing enough. The Necromancer can not stay in its current form and steps should be taken to correct the problem, in this case, viability in GvG in which Soul Reaping has none. - jayce 64.253.5.164 09:00, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Kite's Issue 02:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Issue: Soul Reaping tends to be too abusable for those intending to abuse it, and useless or difficult to use for those who would use it in a reasonable manner(in other words, some minion masters).
 * Solution: Perhaps this is a bit naive, but I think this could be solved by dividing the effect of Soul Reaping between allied Necromancers. In other words, For each point of Soul Reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a non-Spirit creature near you dies. This energy is divided between all allied necromancers. You may only gain Energy in this way 3 times every 15 seconds. This would be a bit difficult when done with multiple different Necromancers, though -- I suppose the easiest thing would just be to take each necromancer's SR, and divide it by the number of necromancers benefiting from the death. Also, one might want to loosen the 3 times per 15 seconds rule a little, too. I know, it's not that painful, but every little bit helps.

Discussion

Dark Morphon's Issue 08:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Issue
 * Passive and broken attribute that fuels lame N/Rts. In serious need of a rework because just simply changing numbers will not solve the problem.


 * Suggestion
 * "Whenever you use a skill targeting a foe suffering from a hex or below 50% health, you gain 1 energy for every 3 attributes in Soul Reaping. If you cast a spell targeting a corpse, you gain double this bonus." <-- This should solve the issue by making SR active, destroying N/Rts and making new changes to necromancers possible.

Suggested tweak(s)

 * Issue
 * As has been stated many times before (see above and here, for example), Soul Reaping is somewhat flawed in that there's a massive variation in how useful it is (though the concept itself is quite cool). To my mind, there isn't really any solution to this without a considerable re-work to the skill, but some tweaks at least could be made in the meantime.
 * The problem I see at the moment (aside from the larger one mentioned above) is that Soul Reaping is a bit clunkily implemented, generally due to the "fixes" which limit the energy gain (I'm not actually sure exactly how it works myself). So, I would suggest a couple of small tweaks not only to the attribute itself but more the mechanic behind it, which would imo be a reasonable compromise.


 * Solution
 * Currently, the timer bit of Soul Reaping seems to be somewhat limiting (many ppl have complained about it) and yet removing it would make an often-OP attribute even more powerful. Spirits no longer give energy but minions do. Balance-wise, this is good, but it doesn't make a lot of sense when you think about it. Anyway, I would suggest something more like this:
 * For each point of Soul Reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a creature within earshot of you dies. Summoned creatures only give one third of this Energy, and only if they are yours. You may only gain half of this Energy every 3 seconds.
 * Basically, the way this would work would be that when you "gain" Energy from Soul Reaping, you don't actually gain it as per say (or at least, not all of it). Rather, it would simply be added to a value which is then given to you in chunks every 3 seconds (starting from when you first get energy). So say for example you have 12 SR and someone nearby dies. Instead of gaining 12 Energy, you would get only 6, but after 3 seconds you would get another 6.
 * Now, I wasn't sure about this idea myself when I thought of it, but after weighing it up I decided that it was the best one I'd had on the matter since it gets around certain problems.
 * Firstly, it allows you to decrease the amount you get for minions or spirits (while keeping some amount) without having one stop you from getting a larger amount of energy if a player dies (in the old SR, when there was a fraction for spirits, you wouldn't get the Energy from a non-spirit creature if a spirit died first, which seemed unfair).
 * Secondly, it would please ppl who think you should get Energy from every foe even if you kill them all in one go, because you do, but it wouldn't mean that killing a mob would suddenly put you right back to full Energy since it's limited by time. Tbh, you can't use it all at once anyway. If it's still thought to be OP (see comparison below), you could cap the "pool" of SR energy which fills up (e.g. if you killed 4 ppl and got 6 Energy up-front and 42 Energy in the pool but it was limited to, say, 30 Energy, you will only get that much until some more of it empties). Additionally, "pool" would continue to empty even if you were already on full energy, meaning you would have to act fast to use it up.
 * Ideally, it would work so that each batch of spare Energy goes away a short duration after it was aquired even if it hasn't emptied into your actual Energy yet, but that might be asking a bit much of the programmers who would have some re-working to do with a change like this anyway (although there's an argument that if you're going to do it, you may as well do it right the first time).


 * Comparison with current version of SR
 * Currently, SR gives you 3x your SR every 15 seconds at most, or SR/5 on average. My suggestion would give you SR/2 every 3 seconds, or SR/6 on average. Thus it would be a little slower to reward the Energy (and IMO SR needs a bit of a nerf anyway) but it would be less limited. I think some kind of a limit is necessary (see above), though, since otherwise a Necro in PvE could get an almost permenant Energy bonus equivilent to +1/2 Energy Regen per single point, if s/he killed enough mobs.


 * Spirits
 * My above suggestion gives Necros Energy for spirits again. Obviously, if this was deemed still to be too powerful, it could simply be left out, but since my suggestion also limits Necros to getting Energy from their own spirits only and you only get 1/3 of the normal Energy, it wouldn't actually give N/Rts all that much of a boon anyway.


 * Minion Masters
 * The change would hurt MMs somewhat since the Energy gain from Minions is reduced (you get 2/3 of your SR less back), so some Minion-creating spells would have to be re-balanced slightly too. I would have thought along the lines of:
 * : Decrease to 15, reduce level to.
 * -10 is too much so reduce level slightly to compensate (20 would be better).
 * : Increase level to.
 * This skill is already quite cheap so increase level a bit to make up for the Energy loss indirectly.
 * : Decrease to 10.
 * Double minions means double Energy loss, after all.
 * : No change.
 * Not a big deal (this is one of the best ones anyway).
 * : Decrease to 15.
 * Decreasing to 10 makes more sense, but given the number of other 10 skills we would have they get too "samey" and this would benefit more from a reduced recharge.
 * : Decrease to 10.
 * Could also consider 12 or level.
 * : Decrease to 5.
 * Needs a recharge reduction anyway.

Than

 * My suggestion is to make Soul Reaping's energy gain 4 times every 20 seconds. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Than.

The Sins We Die By's Issue 01:22, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Issue Too much energy return. Fix!
 * Solution When a creature dies in your vicinity gain half that creatures level in energy up to your attribute in soul reaping. You may only gain energy in this way 3 times every 15 seconds.

Necros Never Lack Energy Due to This Bad Design

 * issue
 * The most skillfulless energy gaining in this game.


 * Suggestion
 * For every 2 Soul Reaping ranking, you gain 1 energy whenever any non-spirit creatures die in earshout. --140.128.67.248 07:09, 4 February 2009 (UTC)