Talk:Lieutenant Thackeray/A1

Quest number
The Guild Wars web site said "If you complete all FOUR quests" you will get a special surprise in Gwens Garden. If so than what is the fourth quest? Chris 69.54.220.18 21:05, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I completed all 3 + 1 off the guy next to him and went to see if there was anything in the garden.. all there was, was a polar bear called Jingle Bear --[[Image:Stylish Yule Cap.png|19x19px]] Razsel   talk  21:13, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * He could be charmable....I'm not sure. --[[Image:User Wandering Traveler Sig2.png|19px]] Wandering Traveler  21:17, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Doesn't show a lock recticle or any way to interract i.e. can't "I'm talking to a Jingle Bear.". When you try to use Charm Animal you get "That creature is not an animal."....pretty weird reward tbh.  98.219.48.111 21:22, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking Thackeray and Gwen get it on....and we meet descendants of theirs later. What he says to her at the end of the quests makes it sound possible. 75.61.32.166 21:47, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'm not the only one with the conclusion that he wants to get in Gwen's pants. --[[Image: User_Ezekial_Riddle_sig.jpg|Talk]] Riddle 23:27, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, let's us go through all the trouble of getting that pendant imbued then walks off with the girl. What a manipulative bastard! I hate people who do that! 84.104.80.120 12:25, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok, completly of the topic of him and Gwen, He does have in my opinion one of the coolest ranger armors in the game. Amazing  Steve  [[image:User_amazing_steve_-_Sig.JPG‎|19px]] 00:28, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * His given name means LIttle dark one/ little and dark. It has Gaelic origins. I found the info on babynames.com. Sorry Don't know how to sign. 19 December 2008. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:70.44.204.18 (talk).

Name
I know it's a stretch, but doesn't "Thackeray" sound like someone with a lisp trying to say "Zachary"? Or at least how Daffy Duck would say it? --ChristopherRodrigues 19:09, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Its how i pronounce his name to Kieran Fakaree. I assume this wouldnt be the last we see of him as he tells gwen his name. --Smithy-Star [[File:User Smithyben sig icon.png]] 19:02, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Could be linked to Kieran Weir from the credits? Cavalier 23:56, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Gwen-bait?
I dare say, this fellow is hitting on Gwen! 76.30.79.54 12:14, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Seems it is working. If you go in the Hall of Monuments and talk to her sometimes she will start to say his real name then correct herself but saying Lt. Thackeray. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 99.195.111.228 (talk).
 * Gwen and Thackeray sitting in a tree, K.I.S.S.I.N.G. :). Qaletaqa 02:57, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I certainly hope not. Not every pairing or postgame plot resolution should be forced on us, especially in the case of a character with a following such as Gwen has. We should be free to decide for ourselves in our own minds what happened rather than having every last detail explained and thus arbitrarily eliminating any other possibilities. And how would it work between them, anyway? His appearances there are sporadic at best. He has no constant presence in the Eye, only random appearances. And he's done nothing for her aside from the pendant, and even for that he had to have our help. So the gift should have been as much from our character as from him, and the dialogue at the end of the quest should have reflected that. --Nathe 05:54, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Nathe, you need to remember the story doesn't exactly belong to us. It's like the Avatar The last Airbender Zutarra crap. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX6zWBQRXvA&feature=related, 2:44 is the important part. You cannot bend the will of the creators when it comes to matching characters up. They are the owners of the story and will do with it as they wish. Plus not all the characters that Helped him with the gift were male ;).
 * I was just using that as an example. But I was just saying that it would be better if they left it open - more people will be happy that way because it can go either way. And we do have part ownership of the story because we're the ones experiencing it. So we should have a say, to a certain extent, in how things happen. --Nathe 19:10, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Ownership of a story isn't attributed to the buyer of the book, but the author. ANet wrote the story, so they can decide where it goes and we're just leeching along for the ride. I don't mind fanfiction, but it's kind of an empty action knowing that it isn't how the story actually went, and insulting to the author because it's blatantly saying "I didn't like your version," even though the idea wouldn't exist without the original. Having a say in the storyline is fine if the game or story is a "choose your own adventure" kind of deal, but GW wasn't built that way any further than for the Luxon/Kurzick and Nightfall split missions.
 * Rants about intellectual property aside, I do think he has a crush on her. Was checking this page just to find out if anyone else had mentioned, haha. --[ Kyoshi ]::[ Talk ] 22:27, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Except that places such as this wiki are in fact, outlets where we are allowed to give suggestions that can change the game. Which has been done already in the past. Besides, IP is an inherently flawed concept, for why should our culture be locked up and sealed away rather than shared? It makes no sense. And yes, I agree that Thack's probably got a crush on her, but not all GW attractions have ever been reciprocated. Nor should they be, as that's unrealistic. --Nathe 13:53, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * ANet has had their own ideas pretty well established about all the story-related concepts of their games before we even get a chance to suggest anything, as far as I'm aware. The only changes we really effect with our suggestions are balances, bugfixes, and weapons/monster names through contests. I don't know why you call IP a "locking up" of culture when it allows people to express the culture they created in the way it was intended to be expressed. The author(s) of a story decide where things go. If I were to write a story and people decided to (through fanfiction or fanart) change the pairings I made for any reason more than that I didn't resolve the pairings or the ever-popular "these two look hotter together," I would feel offended, because it's basically saying to me "yeah, you didn't pair them right, but don't worry, we fixed it for you," and how could that be true? It's my story.
 * I'm not saying that their story should necessarily and absolutely tie up all loose ends, especially in regards to details as trivial and minimally emphasized as NPC romance in an action-adventure RPG, nor am I saying it shouldn't be definite. If they chose leave it open, then some people would be happier because they can imagine it their own way, and I'm fine with that. If they chose to give it some definite conclusion, I would be fine with that. In the end, it's their story, and deciding that you have the power to change its definite facts because it didn't go the way you want it to is insulting to the creators, who probably have more experience and skill with storytelling than your average fanfiction writer. But if they leave loose ends? I'll even lend you my pencil if you think you know where it went.
 * On the same note of not having all the details filled (in response to your first comment here), we don't know that Thackeray didn't visit her more often or that he didn't do other things for her or that she didn't reciprocate his affection at some point, as we weren't at the Eye of the North the whole time, especially between her joining the Ebon Vanguard and meeting up with our player characters, and the vast amount of time available after the Great Destroyer's demise for that matter. Lots of loose ends. Let the players interpret this one as they please, I think, since they really haven't decided it for us. I personally don't care which way it goes, but I think the crush is cute regardless. --[ Kyoshi ]::[ Talk ] 07:58, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * So you're of the mind that it's okay for copyright to last longer than the creator's lifetime, then? Way longer than what was ever originally intended? And thusly, in favor of the locking-up of culture which that promotes? People are going to make their own versions and additions to stories no matter what you do, it's human nature. A creator does not have total and complete control over every aspect of his or her work once it's released. And GW is a thing that can always be updated and adjusted, as it's a continuing game, albeit usually it's gameplay fixes and issues that are the limit of our contributions. The point is, we play it, we're allowed some feedback and suggestion possibilities, including future possible story arcs, or the lack of them. Creators do not have, nor should they ever have, an unlimited and unrestricted monopoly on their creation, as that hinders subsequent creation. Or do you really think things are created from nothing, with no influence ever from any other source? --Nathe 13:54, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You have a point. No, I don't think that copyright should last longer than the creator's lifetime, as then it's certainly a locking-up of culture. I realize that people make their own versions of stories; I see fanart and fanfiction all the time on the internet. I don't see a problem with that because the first step to becoming a great artist is (typically) imitation of great artists. I'm going to change my opinion here: as long as derivative or changed works (or the creators of these works) give credit and respect to the original and the creator of the original, and especially if they are used to improve upon one's artistic skills (writing or art, loosely interpreted), I find no issue. Of course things are created from outside influence; again, imitation of better artists or writers, for one. So I agree with you mostly. We tend to have minimal influence with respect to the Guild Wars storyline, since we are only really told a condensed and undetailed version of the story until they already have it figured out. And I don't see any greater issue with that than I see with fanart and fanfiction. ANet can decide where the real story goes, and fanfiction writers can decide where they would have liked it to go, but always keeping in mind and respecting the original intentions of the work. Of course, that's really a writer's or artist's personal moral line that's more difficult to see in the art itself, usually. --[ Kyoshi ]::[ Talk ] 18:46, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I understand what you mean, but fanfic and the like can follow canon lore, too, by that I mean some authors do try to create their work in such a way that it can fit into the official lore without it actually being so, rather than just slapping a big AU on their work instead. Anyway, Anet - according to Linsey - does try to cater to as many people as possible, which makes sense, so I'd imagine that there won't be any definitive conclusion ever given about this story arc. At least, that would be the smart way to go, letting people come to their own conclusion rather than forcing a specific outcome upon them and thusly arbitrarily eliminating other possibilities. --Nathe 20:38, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Sure, people who think up their own stories would love it. I personally don't care one way or the other. I don't generally read fanfiction because it tends, in my experience, to be grammar-error-ridden and difficult to read (sometimes to the point of eliminating punctuation marks completely) and in other cases tends to just not make sense. I know this isn't always the case, but I don't care to search very hard for the good kind. So every once in a while I like to see the original story (applied to any story that has fanfiction, not just GW) close up some gaps in a way that makes me go "d'awwwwww." --[ Kyoshi ]::[ Talk ] 04:00, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Reappear
It's Feb 16th, and I just saw him again. I was in the Hall of Monuments. clicking on the scrying pool because it sounds cool. All of a sudden, he shows up and starts talking his little end-of-the-quests script. Weird. Mat Cauthorn 21:21, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Just had it happen to me too.--74.169.88.223 21:35, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I just had it happen to me as well 99.237.19.17 14:06, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * About 10 min. ago, I was in my hall with no heroes and a freshly charmed Phoenix from Emryd the Tamer to place in my Fellowship monument. After adding the Phoenix statue, I noticed him in there and team chat had the conversation between him and Gwen about why she's always here.  Then he walked back out the portal.  I did do the Wintersday quests on the same character, but they're all completed and not in my quest log.  My hall is set to display account wide, and I was on my Ranger who has more than 20 max titles if that makes a difference. LicensedLuny 02:16, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Saw him some seconds ago on a starting character. What in the name of Dwayna is he doing there? | Cyan Light [[Image:User Cyan Light User-Cyan Light sig.jpg|19px]] Live! | 19:56, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hitting on Gwen. Pretty obvious. &mdash; Why [[Image:User Why s.png|User talk:Why Are We Fighting]] 22:52, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I wish his armor was available as elite armor for rangers Thrain 01:59, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

if his armor was avalible to players Rangers would be clones, very awesome lookign cloens but clones, he obvoously is in love with gwen, shes jsut to dense to realize it, and im goign to remove the "rweported part" of the note since about 20,000 people have seen him after wintersday--Lord Randy 19:11, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Meh, rangers are meant to have light armor, leather, not spikes. And his hair is ridiculous. Topknots only look appropriate in feudal Japan. --Nathe 05:44, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Duh...
He odviously Loves gwen... -- Neil2250  Evil mantis thing commands you to feed him cookies. 15:44, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * True, but she seems to be pretty oblivious to it. And what's he done for her, anyway? For the pendant, he had to have our help - we did all the work, not him - so that doesn't really count, and we should have had some of his dialogue at the end of that quest. But nooo, Anet's still stuck on the "we can't give the PC's anything to say outside cutscenes" mentality. I see the thing with him and Gwen being a pretty much one-sided thing, really. She has no reason to return his feelings. He wasn't the one who took her back to Ascalon and helped her settle her past, nor was he the one who took her into the Underworld to reunite with her mother. Neither did he fight by her side against the Destroyers. He's done nothing to deserve her, imho. But that's just what I think. --Nathe 18:26, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * He kills charr.... thats the gift that keeps giving... MrPaladin  &dagger;  talk 13:56, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * He and the rest of the Vanguard. So how does that distinguish him? --Nathe 16:23, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Golden Pantaloons? MrPaladin  &dagger;  talk 16:31, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Meh. As I said, his armor's crap. What self-respecting ranger wears metal armor? How's a ranger supposed to be stealthy in that? --Nathe 13:48, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I hate to start another argument with you, but as I see it Rangers are designed to be survival experts, not the rogue/thief class of GW. Assassins were probably supposed to be the rogue imitation, what with the whole ninja mentality that had everyone playing them when they first came out (*cough* and wielding daggers *coughcough*), and Shadow Form was about as close as it got, though it wasn't implemented the right way to fit it. In a game where every enemy notices you, whether looking in your direction or not, when you get a certain distance from them, stealth is available in barely any form at all. (Except for Gwen in the Bonus Mission Pack, but having it in just one mission doesn't count.) It would be awesome to see real stealth implemented in some skills, but that would make PvP Assassins extremely imba without it having severe limitations.
 * And as I said in the other talk we had, we don't know for certain that he never interacted with Gwen besides during our visits to the HoM. I find it hard to believe that he coincidentally only went to see her twice, and never saw her before we arrived at the Eye, and never saw her after the fall of the Great Destroyer. He even says "you're here every time I enter" when we've only seen him there twice, and that seems like an underwhelming observation on his part if he really has only been there twice. All we know is what the story told us, and it leaves it pretty open. You said this was a good thing. I agree that it's a good thing. --[ Kyoshi ]::[ Talk ] 18:13, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Metal armor has no place for a wilderness warrior, at least imo, which is what rangers are. And Thack wasn't even part of EOTN when it first came out, btw, he was only added later. Ex post facto addition to lore, yet we're supposed to believe he was always there regardless of the fact that he originally wasn't. And while he may have had contact with Gwen prior to the WD quest, his own words confirm that they barely even knew each other, which suggests any previous contact would have been minimal at best. Also, how did he even know what her symbol was in the first place to be able to give our character a drawing of it? He never knew Gwen prior to EOTN. He was never shown in pre-Searing Ascalon as a boy. He was never there. And in pre, Gwen herself says that there are no other kids her age for her to play with, which means that he - who would have been around her age at the time - was not there, at least in that region of Ascalon, and never knew her. So he had no way of knowing what her symbol was. Continuity gap, which means the entire WD quest should not even be considered canon since it logically couldn't have been possible to start it in the first place. --Nathe 20:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Just because they're good at wilderness stuff doesn't mean they all have to wear leather or "natural" armor. That's how it was traditionally, granted, but who says it has to stay that way? From there it's a matter of personal taste, and I like this armor. Regardless, the Vanguard basically all use the same kind of armor, so it's not surprising that this guy does too.
 * Fair point about her not knowing him very well (I hadn't seen the quest in quite a while), but there are plenty of things he could have been doing at the points when the players are at the Eye; he's a recon Ranger, he'd be a busy guy when everything around him is enemy territory, especially being put completely in charge of the Eye for Winntersday. The pendant might not be anything more than a random act of kindness, but there's also evidence that a crush is being developed there, as suggested by Thackeray insisting that Gwen call him by his given name, and additionally in his other lines. I'll agree from this that there probably hasn't been anything between them yet, but there could be something developed in the many many years between this and GW2. I guess if that's included in these novels ANet is going to be producing, then we'll have a definite answer, but until then it's all speculation based on minimal observation, really. I think they'd be a cute couple. --[ Kyoshi ]::[ Talk ] 22:06, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the armor's a personal preference, guess that's just my D&D background rearing up, sorry about that. ^_^. And while it's certainly possible that he likes her, there's no indication ever given that she feels the same way. It's more likely a one-sided thing than anything else. I guess I'm just peeved that Anet did this with a guy who's not even visibly at the Eye except on a very erratic basis, hardly the most solid of foundations for building a relationship. Distance couplings tend to be difficult to maintain, after all. I doubt any woman would be content to see her man only once every so often. If this whole thing had been done with someone who was part of EOTN to begin with and who had a regular presence in or near the Eye (as far as being there whenever you enter the area as opposed to only randomly showing up sometimes), I could have understood that. Meaning, if it had been handled more the way the Koss/Melonni thing was, something that was developed right from the very beginning of the story and thus fully intended from the start. But this thing with Thack just seems like something tacked on after the fact and not really ever acknowledging that some players might not like the outcome defined for them in this case. Some might like to think Gwen chose someone else, after all, and would prefer to be given the room in the lore for such possibilities to exist. --Nathe 20:42, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * (reset indent) Mm, I've wanted to try playing D&D for the longest time. No worries, anyway, I get where you're coming from.
 * Like you've said yourself, there's only sugggestions and hints that Thackeray is even flirting - for all we know, he's just a socially inept and well meaning guy - and practically no evidence that Gwen shares any feelings if that's the case. What happens after the things they've allowed us to see...well...remains to be seen, obviously, or isn't going to be shown to us at all; and in either case, at the present there's plenty of room for imagination. I agree that it was kind of awkwardly thrown in if that was the intent, which makes me think that ANet probably didn't mean it, but again, there's not a lot of other evidence pointing either way.
 * I may just not have been paying attention during Nightfall, but I don't remember Koss and Melonni hooking up. >.> They did a lot of the cute-couple arguing, maybe, but there was a LOT of that. They even split the freaking storyline, haha. --[ Kyoshi ]::[ Talk ] 21:35, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Decendant?
The character in the new Guild Wars2 trailer is named Logan Thackeray. Hmmmm. Thackeray isn't exactly a common name in GW, so I move that we add something about it on LT Thackerays page.

totally called that woot. 72
 * Great timing i thought with Wintersday for Anet to mention this descendant. Does this mean Thackeray gets Gwen... Im thinking more lore based quests going on this Wintersday. I just knew that smarmey git in the Guild Wars 2 trailer that was a knight in shining armor would annoy me (LoTRs third age character amirite? Possible wammo toom dont get me started on the name logan) and as soon as i learnt his last name it confirmed this. --Smithy-Star [[File:User Smithyben sig icon.png]] 22:46, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

[] Looks like Gwen and Thackeray?  SniperFox  12:40, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like gwen just woke up from a day of sleeping,Lol.-- Nei l2250  User Neil2250 sig icon5.jpg 07:27, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Not necessarily. Logan could be a descendant of Kieran, but unless he or the game specifically says so, any relation to Gwen is unconfirmed and thus, unknown. So there's still room for interpretation, which is as it should be. --Nathe 13:52, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Independently whether that Logan is a descendant of our Thackeray here or not, it is not part of this game or the game lore. It may be part of the GW2 lore. So I think it is unnecessary to be mentioned here and should be removed. This speculation belongs purly to the Logan Thackeray page on the GW2 wiki. At least in my opinion. Balwin 14:24, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Armor
I see little gold on it this year...--Lord Randy 21:38, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Looking at his armour in both the HoM and Ice Cliff Chasms, it looks silver, like all other Vanguard armour. --Curse You [[Image:User Curse You sig icon.png|Curse You]] (talk|contribs) 18:20, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Visits to HOM
It would seem after tonight's update hes a little glitched. For some people hes not in there. For other people hes in there once. For others Like me he is in there on every character across the whole account,every-time you enter over and over and over, Even characters who haven't completed any of the quests that cause him to spawn there. Even if you have none of the quests in your log. Possible bug.24.197.132.85 07:03, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe his appearance is random.84.80.151.136 20:09, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * If random means hes there for every character every time you enter you are correct.24.197.132.85 02:22, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought his appearance was *random* as well, but he's been coming in every single time i go into the HoM... it's sorta strange... (Although it does conveniently let me see their silly antics more easily :P) --123.243.255.137 04:24, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I see him now everytime I enter the HoM, but not on characters who didn't finish EotN yet. Perhaps the new dialogue might have something to do with new content or upcoming birthday? Infested Hydralisk  01:58, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * He's appeared each time for me as well. Looks like this is leading up to something. Prior to the update, I saw him every tenth time or so.--Pyron Sy 02:39, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing there is going to be some content soon that has to do something with the Charr. Infested Hydralisk  03:23, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Me thinks Thackeray and Gwen will have babies. :) Logan Thackeray is probably their great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandson. [[Image:User Buttermilk Buttermilksig.png]] Buttermilk  12:37, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems like the constant visits by Thackeray was to show off the new conversations.... very suspicious indeed --123.243.255.137 15:36, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Collector Dialogue
Did anyone catch his collector dialogue before you give him his collector items? Once you give him everything he only says "The hadest part. I still need to get the girl". But before that he mentioned his plans for the "hanging garden overlooking (somewhere)" and taking Gwen there. Someone please cap that bit? me55enger 14:33, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Something tells me...
That Gwen may not be a Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Grandmother after all, with this as proof...


 * Lieutenant Thackeray: "Can't? Or won't?"
 * Gwen: "I have my duties."
 * Lieutenant Thackeray: "Spare me. You hide your pain behind duty and service."
 * Gwen: "Mind yourself, Lieutenant. You go too far..."
 * Lieutenant Thackeray: "You think you're the only one who has suffered? The only one who has lost family an friends to the charr? Every time you
 * refuse to live your own life, you let them win. Why can't you see that?"
 * Gwen: "I don't need to be lectured by YOU of all people! You have no idea what I've been through - the sacrifices I've made!"
 * Gwen: "I'm a solider[sic] of Ascalon! I don't have time for your foolish games, or your ridiculously huge flower, or your stupid, stupid picnic -"
 * Gwen: "- and I don't have time for YOU!"
 * Lieutenant Thackeray: "Maybe I was wrong about you, Gwen. You survived the charr... but I think something in you died a long time ago."

And at this i come to Keiran'S Next Choice, The Only render on the wiki with a Fruity pose and one eye.-- Nei l2250  ,    Render Lord  17:45, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Every couple has its ups and downs, and Gwens just difficult. (Ixillius 19:14, 2 April 2010 (UTC))

Appearance in Ice Cliff Chasms...
Okay, so some people think that EN needs completed... others think not. How about this: What if just the vanguard arc, or perhaps even just simply the wintersday quests (i.e., unlike any jingle pet) are the requirement? -- Konig / talk 22:28, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I changed it because I know it doesn't have to be completed. There is some kind of requirement though. On my ele, I have done all of EotN up untill GOLEM (so Vanguard, Norn and most of Asuran). Thackeray will spawn for me. For another character, which has done nothing in EotN yet, he won't spawn. I doubt that the Wintersday quests have anything to do with it; it wouldn't make a lot of sense (it would make this 'quest' unavailable for a lot of players), and he won't spawn for my characters who have done the Wintersday quests but not EotN. Also, I don't think this just is about his appearance in Ice Cliff Chasms. If you don't meet the requirements, he won't come into your HoM in the first place, right? (At least, he won't for me) I think that you're probably right about having to do the Vanguard storyline to get him to walk into your HoM? I would research it, but I don't have enough time today. 81.71.183.54 22:55, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, just looked for my rit - he hasn't done anything for EN - not one mission. And Thakceray appears in the HoM (going through dialogue now). He has, however, done the Wintersday quests. As for "it wouldn't make sense" - actually, it would, as without that people wouldn't know who Thackeray is, so it would be like a storyline. The whole thing is year round, but it starts with Wintersday. Makes sense to me. Just like how the Jingle pets are around year long, but you have to do the wintersday quests to unlock them. -- Konig / talk 23:12, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright! My bad, I was absolutely sure my Necromancer had done all Wintersday quests, but I guess she didn't (there's no Jingle Bear/Moa). So then my guess would be that the requirement is either having completed EotN (he spawned for my Paragon who hasn't done any Wintersday quests, but who has completed EotN), or having completed all EotN Wintersday quests. This way the 'quest' is accessible for everyone, too. ^-^ 81.71.183.54 23:25, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Unless, in reality, there is no requirement except to listen to the dialogue - and whoever added the "must complete EN" actually didn't sit through everything. -- Konig / talk 23:37, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * My necro has completed all of GWEN, sat through all the dialogue, hasn't done the quests though. Also my necro is from Nightfall, but that shouldn't make any difference.  In any case, it's a no show for Thackeray.  Maybe the party started early for the two of them? :D --Ravencroft0 23:49, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have only completed EotN on one of me characters, as well, I know which of my characters I have completed Wintersday Cheer on, so I can safely say that he will only appear if you have completed Wintersday Cheer. --Curse You [[Image:User Curse You sig icon.png|Curse You]] (talk|contribs) 00:33, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah we confirmed tonight on a character who didn't complete the winters-day quests. He will appear, and just have to keep returning to the HOM until he does the picnic dialog. then after that it can glitch and he wont be outside eye of the north. after listening to the dialog and going out 5 times, Thackeray was there on the 6th visit. All that is required is the picnic dialog between Thackeray and Gwen.24.197.130.109 03:37, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I just ran there with my elementalist who has never entered EN before. Thackeray won't show in the Hall of Monuments. No Wintersday Cheer=no show for me. -- Konig / talk 10:57, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Thackerays Secret Garden
Just wondering is this a possible new location that is now in explorable somewhere. His description is rather vague.. Like On the side of a mountain near his homeland.. anyone?24.197.130.109 03:37, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No one has found a garden yet. If it does end up in the game, someone will note it on the wiki or on guru, etc. Just keep checking the wiki for updates. - Marisa 03:43, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I found what appears to be a charr camp in the cave south west of Ascalon. It full of Devourers, three groups but someone has plans for it.  There are vines growing on the roof and moss (or grass) growing on the floor of the cave.  There are also two camp fires. KJZ 11:40, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If you mean in Old Ascalon, I doubt that's thackeray's garden, as that is way out of the way - heck, if it is south west of Ascalon, it definably is. -- Konig / talk 11:42, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Just a theory here, as I haven't done any exploring in-game yet. The line "nestled on the side of a mountain near our homeland" suggests the Ascalon Foothills, which bridge post-searing and the Shiverpeaks.69.228.193.225 04:48, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, this garden is most likely the origins of the fortress Ebonhawke. --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] 19:17, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Additional update dialogue
Looking at the dialogue that was added post 25th of March to the HoM, does it really belong on Thackeray's page? If it belongs on Thackeray's page, it belongs on Gwen's too as it is dialogue from both of them. Personally I think it needs to be move. I'm not sure where, but it doesn't feel appropriate that is it on his page. I guess because we don't deal with this non-quest/mission dialogue often it's hard to place. Maybe it should be moved to "Hall of Monuments/Gwen and Lieutenant Thackeray dialogue" or something, and from there, a simple link (not a transclusion) from Gwen, Thackeray and The HoM's pages. Thoughts? ~Celestia 05:42, 3 April 2010 (UTC) - She's commenting on Cyndr the Mountain Heart. And I doubt they'd take a break between that, "becoming the great dwarf" and putting an end to the great destroyer. -- Konig / talk 22:00, 3 April 2010 (UTC) , "But it's also your birthday next week!" , "Happy birthday, Gwen!" -- Konig / talk 22:03, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think moving it to the HoM would be best, as that is the only place it takes place. I mean, we don't add quest dialogue on NPC pages, do we? This is rather the same - much like taking Gwen to the garden or to the Underworld. -- Konig / talk 09:10, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well I added a move tag onto the section. "Hall of Monuments/Gwen and Lieutenant Thackeray dialogue" sound like a good location, or should it be under something else? Then a simple will be suffice IMO. ~Celestia  13:33, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Move it. Also, have we determined the prerequisites for the dialog? I've got a character that just got to Eye that doesn't have his dialog available. --141.158.120.201 19:51, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Considering this is developing into a mini quest line, I'm thinking it should get a page of it's own. I don't think it should go to the HoM page, since it only takes place there, and has nothing to do with the function of the area.--[[Image:User Pyron Sy sig.png|19px| ]] Pyron Sy 19:53, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Mini" quest huh? Okay. It should get it's own page with obvious links to HoM, Gwen, and Lt. Thackeray.  Most of us are assuming that these events are taking place in real time.  What if these events are taking place during the story of EotN?  Gwen's "I have duties..." could be interpreted as being a secretive way of saying, "I'm working with the enemy towards a common goal."  She's trying not to upset Thackeray with this info, because she really does care about him.  Pure speculation, I know... It sucks though that most of the rest of us can't take part in the quest because of missing out on the wintersday event.  DEVS IF YOU'RE READING THIS:  Wintersday in July please?  --Ravencroft0 21:34, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think any new content is "during" anything in the past. Gwen/Thackeray's stuff might be happening during the Shining Blade/White Mantle stuff, but not during the Eye of the North stuff. How do I know? "stood firm against a great fire wurm"
 * Edit: At least not enough to have weeks go by: "we won't be back for a few weeks"
 * As a response to Ravencroft I would like to say - once again - that having done all Wintersday quests isn't a requirement for this 'mini quest' or whatever it is. I didn't do any Wintersday quests on my Paragon, and I still got Thackeray to give me loads of cool stuff. Don't feel left out! I advise you to finish EotN and try again. I bet it'll work for you then. ^-^ 81.71.183.54 22:09, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know what happened, but was able to get Thackeray to show up. I believe it happened because, you must wait until Gwen says, ""Wait, what did I just agree to?" before you exit the outpost.  Which seems like a no-brainer... >.<....--Ravencroft0 10:31, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * On a further note, I got two packages. Normal or did I get lucky? --Ravencroft0 11:16, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I have moved it to the HoM page for now. If it does end up being a quest chain, we could always move it to there but I simply followed the location formatting for now: "Note that most dialogue is either part of a quest or relates to individual NPCs. As such, they should be listed in their respective articles instead. For such special cases, do note the conditions or situations that will trigger the dialogue" . Following that, the HoM page is the best place for it, for now. <font color="#bb00bb" size="3px">~Celestia 13:33, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

finally.
Some real dialog, for the first time in all my years of guild wars, the thackeray/gwen conversations are truly convincing and human. If the whole game functioned on this level....ohmahgawd--Likealemon 22:09, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Linsey is pulling all the stops out to make realistic NPCs. The EN Henchmen were the first step. ^^ I hope GW2 will be like this. -- Konig / talk 02:11, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

What...no ecto?
I din't see anything where someone offered him Ecto or Obby Shards or Diamonds(as they say 'diamonds are forever'),rubies,sapphires, or any other rare mat?

all these uber rich ppl ingame and no one wants to see if Lt. wants any of it? maybe the ecto would be a good memory for Gwen about her mom or something? lol well w/eHellz Yeahz 00:11, 6 April 2010 (UTC)Syn
 * I don't think ectoplasm would do well to NPCs. It's basically the same thing as Phantom Residue. It's only "worth money" to players. Literally. -- Konig / talk 08:02, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

i offered him a myterious tonic and got some new dialogue for the things he doesnt accept, heres the screen anyway hehe



id of added it in myself but cant seem to find the bit to edit that part of the article :/ so if someone knew how to do that they could add it in :) ArthasShadowsong 11:35, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The piece of a dialogue was there already. It's the same for all tonics it seems. - J.P.[[Image:User J.P. sigicon.png| ]] Talk </b> 13:52, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Quest for letting them make up?
A nice thing for a quest in GW is one for letting Gwen and Thackeray make up. Also I found this little page about Logan Thackeray--> http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Logan_Thackeray at the bottom of the article it sais he might be a possible descendant of Gwen and Lt. Thackeray so I guess they 'ill make up in some quest (yay) or further in the future without a quest (boo) I would post my wiki name here to but forgot howto. Now gimme one hell of a discussion!!! =D
 * Sign with four tildes ~ <-- that's a tilde. Anyways, that GW2W note is speculation, hence possible - and that possibility is made via the Thackeray name and Kerian's interest in Gwen. It's a rather loose speculation though, even if it is likely (ironically). -- Konig / talk 08:04, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Ferrying low level toons and people not meeting conditions
It is possible to ferry people trought the dialogues process, the only thing needed is the leader to meet the conditions (winterday or beat eotn), if he does, everybody in team will process trought the dialogues sequence, regardless they meet or not conditions (as low as lvl10 just arriving at eotn), thus will be able to talk to collector in ice cliff.

Now, its nowhere mentioned on the page that you actually have to follow the whole dialogue process in order to "talk" to the collector or make him appear, if its here then sry im blind, but it should be more clear imo (took me a while to figure first time what the hell was going on).

The process is not repeatable, and you cant ferry somebody after the dialogues (lets say, you ferry directly to him somebody that didnt listened to dialogues sequence, he just wont talk to you). edit: actually, it should be "repeatable" given your "ferry" is dispatched along 6 slots, each one been on ones of the dialogue and disconecting after loading it. (they do repeat until you see them fully, once lieutenant steped inside the room i think the leech should process the dialogue normaly even if leader leave). Also note that the leader doesnt need to be the person zoning into the hall, it will load his hall anyway, so only 1 person is needed for zoning, the rest can be afk, also the trigger for lieutenant is for anybody to walk few steps in the hall, if nobody move he dont come.

If a "leech" in team get disconnected for any of the dialogues (say, zone too fast or whatever in between dialogues), it will get stuck and have to restart from 0 with another "ferry".
 * Answering to myself just to confirm that it IS repeatable, the method is working. You need 6 slots that have beat eotn, toon1 go and trigger dialogue1 then disconect, toon2 go and trigger dialogue2 then disconect... ect... in between dialogues reform the team (of leechers) up to the 6th dialogue, and hes spawning then in ice cliff (+ talk to you...)
 * Trought co-op (between 3 people and some 5 accounts) we are able to get leechers slots in about 1h-1h30 to eotn (lvl10) from scratch and rince the process.

82.224.68.40 21:42, 13 April 2010 (UTC) Random player

Where in Ice Cliff Chasms?
I have seen right through to the picnic conversation - no Thackeray outside EOTN ??? :( 84.92.169.252 03:49, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, just an update - it would appear I hadn't seen the dialogue when I was party leader - what I saw was the party leader's picnic dialogue. I just tried going in alone and I got the dialogue with Thackeray running out crying. A few more times then. Confusing. 84.92.169.252 04:10, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

OK this ENTIRE thing is confusing as heck. I have been in once as PL with a char that completed EOTN, has not done any wintersday quests, and does not have any Vanguard points to speak of (only whatever was required for quests to finish game.) I sat thru the entire dialog and Thackeray appears outside EOTN but he doesnt speak to me or accept gifts. THEN I go in with a character who has complted eotn but I am not the PL and tghe same thing-he appears b ut I cant speak to him. Some alliance peeps have done this in different ways, and the only sure thing I can come up with is you MUST be the PL, you MUST have cmplated eotn, and you MUST listen to all the dialog. Youd think, right? Except I meet all those requirements for one char and I still cant get him to talk to me, even though he apears in ice cliffs. It would be REALLY REALLY helpful if GW would just TELL you what you had to do. I am annoyed
 * Well, i made a lot of testings while working on a repeatable method (see above topic) and when you see Thackeray but he dont speak to you, it mean you didnt listened to all dialogues sequences, if you realy did, its a bug i suppose, right now i have done this more than 40 times and i never ran into that.
 * I guess your only way to get him to talk to you now is to be ferry by someone else (who didnt listened yet to any dialogues)

Cite
It's on Gwen_(Eye_of_the_North). I don't see why it can't be here. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Tesslina (talk).
 * And is that citation supposed to be there? I, personally, don't think it needs to be cited here since it is more GW2 info. --JonTheMon 18:24, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it should be in both places, as it is trivia, and has been contested. No harm in leaving it, certainly. <font color="Black">-- <font color="#0104C6">FreedomBound [[Image:User_Freedom_Bound_Sig.png|19px]] 18:25, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

It is related to the birthday and events of gww.

I would check the site.

I would state your statement on gwen talk page, if it was me.

I copied what was on gwen.
 * Like I said. It's fallacious to say that since another page (with a new note, mind you) does it one way, that this page should do the same thing. On this page, in particular, there is a much stronger connection between Keiran and Logan than on Gwen's page, even w/o the announcement. And sign your comments. --JonTheMon 18:32, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Note was the same, just reference added. Same connection on both. Check for yourself. --Tesslina 18:42, 22 April 2010 (UTC) --Tesslina 18:42, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I am capable of reading, and you haven't addressed the point of "is it appropriate for this page, given the note and the last name connection?" --JonTheMon 18:48, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't really understand your objection, Jon. Do you think that just because they share a last name, it is inherently obvious that Logan is Keiran's descendant? <font color="Black">-- <font color="#0104C6">FreedomBound [[Image:User_Freedom_Bound_Sig.png|19px]] 18:53, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Since the note only addresses Logan being a descendant, yes, I think it's strong enough on it's own w/o the citation. If you were to mention being the descendant of Keiran and Gwen, at that point I'd include the citation. --JonTheMon 18:58, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That makes sense. <font color="Black">-- <font color="#0104C6">FreedomBound [[Image:User_Freedom_Bound_Sig.png|19px]] 19:01, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The reference could be left if people think it's so hotly contested that people will remove the note, which i don't believe it to be the case. IMO the reference isn't necessary and adds clutter, plus Jon makes sense. -- Lania Elderfire [[Image:User Lania Elderfire pinkribbon.jpg]] 19:04, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Jon, read the website and same goes for Lania. Quote: "Gwen, a brooding, beautiful mesmer, and Lieutenant Keiran Thackeray, a charr-hunting ranger. Gwen and Lt. Thackeray are destined to marry and establish the human city of Ebonhawke, a key location in Guild Wars 2, and their descendent, Logan Thackeray, is one of the iconic characters in Guild Wars 2." I think with Lieutenant being on that site, gives reason enough for it to be cited. --19:14, 22 April 2010 (UTC) --Tesslina 19:14, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have read that website. Have you read my arguments? --JonTheMon 19:33, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The website also says "...a brooding, beautiful elementalist" (emphasis added), incidentally. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 19:58, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it doesn't. Jon, I have read your arguments and sorry, but to be honest some are pointless. See these words "Lieutenant Keiran Thackeray, a charr-hunting ranger", "marry", and "establish the human city of Ebonhawke". I thought we were to document the game, even if the character is featured on the site. I don't see why it shouldn't be linked, even if it may deal with both guild wars and guild wars 2. It is still part of the on going things they're doing in guild wars (guild wars beyond as they call it) and it is part of their setup for the next game. --Tesslina 20:22, 22 April 2010 (UTC)--20:22, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * We have the dumbest fights on this wiki. 58.106.43.167 20:26, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, we do. --Tesslina 20:29, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't have any objections to keeping the note. The note should stay, but the citation should go.  It doesn't need a citation since it's official information now.  IMO if it's official information about the game it doesn't need a citation on a game wiki.  Only time it should have a citation is when it is information that is outside of the game. -- Lania Elderfire [[Image:User Lania Elderfire pinkribbon.jpg]] 20:31, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see you saying this on Gwen_(Eye_of_the_North), where it's cited as well.--Tesslina 20:33, 22 April 2010 (UTC)--Tesslina 20:33, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The same applies there. Citation is for referencing a certain fact. It's kinda redundant/useless to reference an official fact from Anet. -- Lania Elderfire [[Image:User Lania Elderfire pinkribbon.jpg]] 20:36, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Jon and Lania, check gwen's user page at the reverts. You should see why the reference is needed.--Tesslina 03:38, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Aside from the reference, how would you connect logan and gwen? Keiren and logan have the last name connection. I don't see that w/ gwen. So, each can be treated differently since each have different standards of connection. aka, leaving the citation on gwen's page (with maybe some qualifications about keiran) would be fine. --JonTheMon 03:45, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * ^ This. Some people are still in denial about about the Keiran-Gwen hook-up, so I do believe the citation should be kept on Gwen's page. -- <font color="#ef8f50">R <font color="#916142">i <font color="#333333">ddle 04:29, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Seeing as the quote hasn't been confirmed (to my knowledge) and the error in calling Gwen an Elementalist, I think there's some reason to be skeptical. I don't lean either way on the issue of placing the note there, or the citation. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 06:39, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * They fixed the elementalist/mesmer error. I think the only problem is that that release was let out ahead of schedule. I'm guessing the note will be confirmed through the "Guild Wars Beyond" storyline, even if it might take a couple of months. <font color="Black">-- <font color="#0104C6">FreedomBound [[Image:User_Freedom_Bound_Sig.png|19px]] 11:15, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

NCSoft is not Anet. They own Anet but they don't determine what goes into the game. So it's entirely possible for them to get something like this wrong. Until Anet itself confirms it, and not NCSoft, it is not official. No game site or parent company can replace the actual creators. --Nathe 13:22, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Basically what Nathe said. I'm fairly sure things will unfold mostly as described, though. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 20:43, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * So ANet can't release anything jointly with NCSoft? --JonTheMon 20:50, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * There isn't a history of NCsoft's press releases being completely wrong or even slightly incorrect over facts on products that Anet produced. So, there isn't any reason to think that this information is unreliable.  -- Lania Elderfire [[Image:User Lania Elderfire pinkribbon.jpg]] 23:06, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * NCsoft is the parent company that owns Anet so it sends out the press releases. Just as press releases for Call of Duty come not from Infinity Ward, but Activision(IW's parent company), Arenanet does not put out press releases for Guild Wars but NCsoft does. I see no reason to say that that press release is not valid. Unless you take your NPC matrimony views way to seriously, like a certain someone around here. -- Hawk Skeer [[Image:User_Hawk_Skeer_Assassin.png|Assassin Symbol]] (Talk) 23:15, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Doesn't matter. Not official till Anet itself says so. NCSoft is not Anet. Only Anet's word is acceptable. --Nathe 04:33, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * From my understanding, Anet and NCSoft do work together. The Support for GW goes to NCSoft, not Anet. So, I think it's acceptable. I feel that we're having two who refuse to see the facts for themselves... --Tesslina 05:24, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No, Nathe is just, for some reason, violently opposed to the idea of Gwen and Kerian marrying. He has a feedback entry posted about it from last September, and you can see it from previous entries on several talk pages(check his user contributions on talk pages; you'll see). I guess he thinks if he can keep the fact that they do marry off the wiki, it somehow prevents that part of the story from existing. -- Hawk Skeer [[Image:User_Hawk_Skeer_Assassin.png|Assassin Symbol]] (Talk) 15:11, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Nathe just likes Gwen to much to let her go >:) -- Nei l2250   ,    Render Lord User Neil2250 sig icon6.png 15:12, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Spoiler warnings
Does this page (and Gwen's incidentally) need some? <font color="#A55858">Misery  11:43, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I found them to be a believable couple (from a womans perspective). However, let Thack get one look at Livia and he'll be jumping that picket fence. *smirks* --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.4.52.150 (talk).

Nicholas the Traveler
My apologies if this has already been discovered. He's visited Gwen about 15 minutes after I posted here, about needing to get some "Jacaranda seeds" (probably Sentient Seeds), for some tea to give to his men. Gwen then said she would ask Nicholas, to which Thackeray replies, "The Traveler?" Is the Hall of Monuments the source as to what Nicholas the Traveler is going to ask for this week? 116.14.155.69 07:27, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No, that dialogue excists for a long time. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  14:59, 10 May 2010 (UTC)