User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Update20071113

Assassin
This skill is currently bugged. It fails if used against a non-hexed foe. -- Gordon Ecker 09:48, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * : decreased Energy gain to 5..18; this skill now counts as a lead attack.
 * : decreased duration to 1..11 seconds.


 * : decreased damage to 1..11.


 * : increased casting time to 1 second.


 * : decreased damage to 5..20.

Not sure if The Horns and Trampling nerfs were really needed but I am very happy with the rest of it. Finally we'll have all bad Shadow Prison Assassins who are ruining the game in every aspect out of the game, thanks. Ego 03:56, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd have to disagree. This was one of the few reasons sins got into meta so why make the reasons they are good, the few, even worse? I actually liked running SP and to be honest against a decent team the spike was mere pressure.  I dont see how you can blame a not even overly used build for ruining an entire game?  Damage reduction was a bit over the top...understatement.  You murdered the combo, is that really needed because tons of sin builds without SP used horns of the ox and such.  Daggers are weak alone why make the skills just as bad? 74.229.66.241 04:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Trampling Ox was a bit excessive with reliable cripple applies, both from Grenth's Grasp and with Black Mantis now that the offhands cast in 1/2 sec. KD-lock builds were a little too good at what they did.  Horns of the Ox is still a good dual, an attack with a very reliable KD with two chances to go through block on a character built around ganking is quite good.  I'm extremely happy to see the SP bar finally get kicked in the crotch, though I have a strong feeling it'll be back with Falling Lotus Strike very soon. Riotgear 06:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This may have been needed, but it actually seems rather meek now, for a dual attack (not that I know anything about assassins though). What was the damage before this? Nicky Silverstar 08:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It dropped from ~112 average to ~76 average, at 13 spec; 136 to 100 on double crit. -Ensign 09:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

That many Sins almost only used Shadow Prison cannot be the reason for this nerf. Almost all Assassin builds use some kind of "Ox" KD. All of them could be countered *easily*. Once the chain is broken, Sins are screwed. With the decrease in killing power, which was already not guaranteed (one failed attack in the SP chain is enough) to kill (high HP monks) all alone, Sins are now worse and people will play another class, which then gets nerfed... sigh. :( --Longasc 08:37, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it's a great update, the only thing that is lacking is a nerf to Jungle Strike (either revert the activation time or reduce the conditional damage) and of course Recall and Deadly Paradox. --Draikin 13:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you ever pvp? Do you have any idea what you're talking about?  Sins are already easy enough to counter, if someone can't then they're a noob.  Any form of block or miss kills the entire combo and assassins are unable to sit on a target like a warrior or dervish.  They don't have constant damage like either of those classes either and depend on quick burst damage that still isn't necessarily deadly.  They were basically killed with this huge nerf (just take a look at the underpowered assassin list at the end) with the majority of their combos being nerfed.  The damage from daggers is dismissive and now the great combos opened up with eotn were killed with the damage reduction to the good skills, making them no longer able to kill a target (assuming that target isn't a retarded PvE person with 3 superior runes). 76.102.172.202 23:03, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, my personal thoughts on the current situation. I'm not liking the Black Lotus Strike nerf, its completely unusable now, with Golden Lotus Strike's lower energy cost, easier condition and lower recharge. In fact, not even Golden Lotus Strike is very usable due to its high recharge, right now the only viable leads IMHO are Jagged Strike, Golden Fox Strike and Black Mantis Thrust; Unsuspecting Strike costs too much. Lower recharing leads and off-hands is what L-O-D needs, my prediction is that now we will be seeing plenty of AoD Shock sins, in fact thats what I will be most likely bringing to AB to get my share of faction (also my favorite Assassin's Promise PvE build needed this BLS...). Expose Defenses is now in the Useless skills bench, next to Fox Fangs, due to a little skill named Rigor Mortis which does the same, with a shorter recharge and real no need in attribute points. For Horns of the Ox, I don't think the damage reduction was needed to be that low and if the objective was to kill the Shadow Prison builds, I'm sure that the change of BLS did that already. Impale is okay with me. Now Trampling Ox was underused already, there are no real convinient ways for an assassin to cripple a target, with Caltrops high recharge and being rather outdone by Aura of Thorns, Grenth's Grasp being an elite (and thus, no Moebius Ox-lock). Black Mantis Thrust is probably the easiest way (yay for LOD encouragement). I'm really wondering where the L-O-D project went, IMO all we need is 4-6 recharge leads and normal off-hands and a change in Fox Fangs and Wild Strike's functionality so that they both can be good and usable. If you're nerfing us then please give us viable alternatives. On a side note, Sins as pressurizers = bad idea, a warrior will always do that better.RadaArashi 17:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Great, now an already disliked profession has become useless. Hey anet, why did you even make sin's if you're just going to nerf every combo they can come up with? 70.51.132.245 20:56, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the Expose Defenses nerf was a good idea although it's worse then Rigor Mortis we should renember its an assassin class skill so you can go any secondary whereas you'd have to /necromancer for rigor mortis. The reason I say this is good is it requires you to use a certain secondary proffession to gain a useful utility skill for your build while having to give up on an IAS or another utility skill which leads to more build diversity.(Marsc 21:06, 14 November 2007 (UTC))
 * The issue is that Rigor Mortis is just COMPLETELY better. Expose doesn't even pass its r0 level until r12, and the r2 rigor isn't surpassed until r15 expose.  Not only that, Rigor Mortis prevents ALL blocks, not just blocks from the attacker.  A large portion of sins don't need a secondary anyway.  With Dark Escape and Feigned Neutrality in availability (and I guess a buffed Shadow Refuge) sins have decent self-heals, completely allowing them the use of rigor mortis. 76.102.172.202 23:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Honestly, Making Horns of the Ox and Trampling Ox do less damage doesn't work well...Everyone is concerned with the Shadow Prison build, and doing less damage because of Horns of the Ox, but its used in other builds. More importantly the nerf to Black Lotus strike was unfair because it was used in many other builds.  You could have at least made it cost more energy, or longer recharge, but making it a lead attack is messing up many builds.  Shadow Prison isn't the only build that contains Black Lotus and Horns of the Ox you know.67.81.169.196 22:33, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that's kind of the point. With using an assassin attack chain, you can have damage(BoS), utility(SA), or disruption(HotO). You shouldn't be able to have all of them in one chain. Assassins are now less solo-killing spike machines and moreso opportunistic kill-makers with team pressure behind them. That's what they are supposed to be, really. Any build that allows a kill every 20 seconds all by your lonesome with, and because of, two knockdowns doesn't fit well in Guild Wars. Now, assassins aren't crazily powerful by themselves on the split (damage+disruption wise), and should free up some interesting flag builds. Remember that the knockdowns open up the Falling skills, so instead of L-O-D, you can compact the bar and get two dual attacks in without depending on the now lead Black Lotus. That's just how I see it.--Skye Marin 00:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with the assassin skill balance but, there's no compensation to assassin utility skills like scorpion wire, shadow meld, mirrored stance and what-not. You know, skills that could be good but, are worse for wear in their current state. I can't help but feel that expose defenses should be something like: 5/.25/15 "For 0..4 seconds target foe can not block your attack skills but all your other attacks are blocked" Jigoku 01:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Overall the Assassin-updates did a great job at killing SP-sins (eventhough they weren't really that hard to counter anyway..), but the change of BLS to a Lead Attack was completely unnecessary. The rest of the updates helped kill the SP-sins (and a whole lot of other builds) enough on their own, but the change of BLS destroyed way more builds than was necessary. So from an analytical perspective I'd say change BLS back to the way it was before.. Possibly lowering the energy gain by 1 or 2 points. Because the way it is now you greatly limited the number of viable builds in PvP and there are far enough Lead Attacks to allow people to use L-O-D-chains. I've already made all my points in the TalkPage for the skill itself... Fix this.--Azurei 05:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The change to Black Lotus Strike was 100% necessary; it was the cornerstone of virtually everything disgusting you could do with an Assassin. After scrimming for a few hours with Assassins today, their power level feels about right; Falling Lotus Strike might need a kiss with the nerf bat but that's about it. AoD and Shadow Prison versions feel roughly equivalent in power. Either is still perfectly capable of capitalizing on a bad situation. Niche, tactical characters that'll pop up in the occasional build without being dominant - right about where they should be. Great job.

As far as other venues go, Deadly Arts Assassins are still problematic in the arenas, and Augury of Death still rears its head in degenerate spikes; both Augury and Deadly Paradox are worthy of getting a closer look. -Ensign 12:47, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

PUT BLS BACK INTO AN OFFHAND. do you realize just how many "decent" builds you killed with this? it wasnt just the SP sin, it was every other non LOD sin build that isnt a gimmick of spear or bow shooting. you just ruined what the assassin's role was supposed to be. i mean honestly, ASSASSIN = some guy you dont expect coming in, killing you, and running. assassins dont do pressure well, nor can they take the dmg as well as they deal it. i know its hard to deal with assassins, but was easily possible before you nerfed this NECESSARY skill to their damage and overall use. put BLS back into an offhand and fix this potential class screw. 64.149.24.114 20:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, my favorite PvE build (Assassin's promise, Shadow fang, BLS, TF, BSS, BoS, CA, rez/heal) is now unusable. As are several other PvP builds I used on RA... Augury Assacaster and AoD Shock are the only things I could run that would be effective aside Spear throwing.

The biggest issue I have with this update, is everyone seems focused on the fact that certain classes can dominate if people don't bring the right counters. What about the Dervish that can stand up to a warrior and 2 sins before this update, and now 3 sins after without dying? An assassin is meant to do a ton of damage, hit hard, and get out of the fight. It was my favorite class, and I didn't even tend to use BLS too much (only 1 build, and it didn't involve SP at all), but now with the skill list, I can't even be a decent part of a party unless I have only DA spells on, or I use a bow and get some skills from EotN. If you want to limit the assassins skills, then get rid of any signet or spell from the other classes that has less than a 2 second cast time and causes KD, since once my combo is interrupted I'm useless and doing less damage then ever!. Sure, I may be able to KD with my dual attack, but if someone throws up blocks or knocks me down in the middle of a skill, I'm never going to get my KD off (which took 2 or 3 hits to begin with!). Another suggestion is to make a "poisoned" dagger tang, which only causes half the degen of regular poison, but applies on all hits. As an assassin, I should be using things like poison anyway! As a bit of a follow up, if it has to be listed as a "nerf" because it's an effective combo, then before the combo itself gets done, why not look at the skills the other class has to combat it? Calling an update a nerf just because something is useful takes away the spirit of an update for balance.


 * This update is R-E-T-A-R-D-E-D. Assassin role in matches is already fairly limited, and this change just about killed their only role. As a DPS damage dealer, they're inferior to warriors. For utility, they're inferior. In KD they're inferior (except for the assa casters) stonefist gauntlet + bull strike is now greater than HoTO. If that's not enough, 1) Their chain is easily broken, why haven't you listened to the suggestion to allow out of chain combo, with lesser dmg penalty? or bonus if the chain were kept to promote more intelligent play? 2) Harder to switch target 3) Harder to keep alive than warriors/dervs. Have you ever stopped and think for a sec what the hell were they supposed to do after these nerfs? The reason shadow prison got so popular in the first place was because Assassins couldn't come up with other builds that're effective and more importantly ::UNIQUE:: to their class, that couldn't be similarly provided by the more reliable/durable classes.

Why does it seem like im the only one that actually liked the BLS update? Try using a different build for a few weeks geez --76.26.189.65 08:36, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the change was pretty useful to you don't have to use BLS or SP there are other skills like Palm Strike or Golden Phoenix Strike The way it was Black Lotus Strike was too good since it gave you energy from after you used SP did alot of damage and allowed you to get a dual attack off very quickly.(sorry I forgot to sign)(Marsc 00:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC))
 * You're all under the false impression that assassins are supposed to be solo spikers. Learn to play utility. 72.235.48.41 17:22, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm a firm believer that the assassin needs to have a good party to get anywhere, problem is, nobody will take you in their party BECAUSE you're an assassin. I waited for 30 minutes, and got booted from the group first without even being asked what build I was running before they went into the mission.  Waiting 30+ minutes every time to find a group when people are advertising for groups all over is just dumb, and has to show you what the class doesn't have.  You can't be a Deadly Arts spell assassin effectively, since you have no energy management, so the only option is to now use Sin as a secondary for Shadow Arts and forget the rest of the class. (use preview and sign comments plz)
 * Also, not to be mean, but this is primarily a pvp balance discussion. Complaining about "i cant get into a riverside province group" neither provides feedback, nor puts forth an honest attempt at a suggestion. 72.235.48.41 17:36, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * OK smartass... what utility is assassin supposed to bring to PvP that the warrior/mesmer/rangers/water eles can't do as well if not better!? Oh with a lot less risk too I might add?

I completely Dislike the new assassin BLS and HoTO "update". Many many combo chains were broken on an already 1/2 broken profession. To even be a decent assassin people are forced to use deadly arts because of the now low low dmg output on assassin combos. HoTo was also a skill that didn't need the dmg decrease. Imo If you start taking away and breaking the already broken professions without giving anything viable as a replacement what exactly are we supposed to do? I quit if changes stay as they are, breaking a profession because of a build is the worst mistake ever.GenocideTwitch 01:09, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Heh, I don't have time to read exactly what everyone else has said. But i'd just like to throw in my ten cents. With Black Lotus Strike as a lead, it has nothing to justify its use. It has a 12 second recharge, the highest out of any leads, and is currently, bugged or not, conditional. Other than its higher damage, its very meh. With the nerf to Horns + Trampling, AoD -> GPS -> Horns -> Falling -> Blades -> Impale is also dead. Horns/Trampling's damage was a tad high, sure, but now its just weak. Assassins are already hated in PvE, and now, in PvP, they have very little outside Deadly Arts spiking, Moebius/Death Blossom spamming, and utility. Even then, for utility, they can easily put up pressure with Golden Fox -> Wild -> Shattering, but, they're insanely fragile. If you try going... say... Mark of Instability -> SP/AoD -> Black Spider ->, you've already used 30 energy, without including an IAS, and the only decent dual attack to use after Spider is Twisting Fangs, which costs 10 energy, thats a total of 40 energy, which an assassin can just barely meet with Radiants & +5 energy daggers. BLS needs to be changed, fix the conditional requirement, lower the recharge, drop the energy cost to 5, drop its energy gain a bit, or just bring it back to an offhand. Horns and Trampling horribly need their damage brought up, maybe not back to the original values, but currently its far to low. Impale's casting time feels far to high, maybe push it down to 3/4ths? Maybe Blades of Steel should be tweaked, not the rest of the chain, perhaps lower its maximum bonus damage a tad? Kamer 05:48, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * BLS compared to other Lead attacks - Highest Recharge - By 2 seconds... Highest Energy Gain - +15-19... Highest NET Energy Gain - upto +9... 3rd Highest Dmg wise... Compared to other Lead attacks its not NEARLY as weak as others say it is. If the problem is because it left a void in offhand, then say that other then saying BLS is a weak lead. 16:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a lead requiring a hex to even land and gains you energy at the only point in your entire chain where you don't need any. It's also got either pitiful damage or an overly long recharge.  You're either going to be either spiking or spamming with a 'sin - for spiking you need energy back when you've, you know, actually used some, and the recharge just kills it for spamming.  If you're going to be running a hex on your build anyway, both BMT and BSS are superior to BLS.  Also, why still ten energy? --71.229.204.25 12:22, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

PLEASE kill assacasters
Please these pvx noobs are running around with their staffs, do something about it 24.141.45.72 22:46, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I hate when people start with "plz kill or plz destroy" something. 87.189.236.143
 * losers do so when they just got owned by the same thing twice or more, just ignore them. --Cursed Angel 11:17, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Are you implying that theres nothing wrong with the build?--Thelordofblah 04:01, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * There is nothing wrong with the build. Just Dancing Daggers. Done25 04:48, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * What about turning it into a delayed damage hex to prevent spamming and add synergy with "must strike a hexed foe" skills? -- Gordon Ecker 05:15, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Or turn SoTS into typed damage. --71.229.204.25 04:50, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Lol dancing daggers, long ranged 100~ spell dmg spammable lead attack, Sins have better spell damage than some ele spells 06:51, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * 100 vs AL60. If you're AL60, you're either a monk, a mesmer, or a rit/ele.  Monks can easily outheal 20dps + dagger attacks, even through Entangling's KD.  Assacasters are casters, so Mesmers > them.  A rit or an ele... Well, good effing luck - unless you're an invincimentalist or a Wanderlust/Dissonance whore (maybe some other options, I don't play rits), you're totally boned.
 * I'd prefer if DD wasn't earth damage, that plus the damage plus the spammability when you pair it up with DP is just offensive when you compare it to eles. And on that note, IMO DP should be reverted to 50/50 and made elite, it's the second KD via SoJ that really kills. --71.229.204.25 12:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC) please note that i'm basing all this on my experiences with assacasters in RA/AB, I haven't done TA or HA enough to see what coordinated abuse can do.
 * Mesmers are not > assacasters in the game called Guild Wars. Deadly Paradox speeds up already fast activating skills (half of which are not spells anyway, they're signets or just plain skills) so your chances of hitting it with a pleak or something are slim to none. And if you camp one with a migraine, that's all well and good, except by far, most teams have multiple assacasters, so you'd have to have multiple migraine mesmers to shut each one down. Not a very viable solution.
 * But yeah, deadly paradox not being elite is a joke. It's like MoR, except more easily maintainable, affects cast time, and isn't elite. The limitation to assassin skills is hardly a balancing aspect, as assassins have a bunch of skills that are simply overpowered when coupled with a fast cast and recharge. - Auron 12:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I was actually thinking about touchers when I wrote that; touchers became so prevalent that even after they're dead, my first reaction to seeing a R/N within half a radar of me is still either GTFO or stall and wait for backup (lol i play warrior). Not trying to draw a comparison between them for anything but learned tactics, but if Izzy leaves assacasters alone long enough, Mesmers are going to develop the same kind of kneejerk reaction of dropping Diversion on any goddamn A/Mo they see entering cast range to hopefully catch DD instead of doing the toucher kite.
 * I'm not gonna try to argue power levels (!) or anything right now, it's five thirty in the morning and I have work tomorrow, and I lack the experience in any case. Just a few thoughts. --71.229.204.25 12:31, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the reason why nerf the build. It can be countered. Dancing Daggers has been since 2006 April 28 and never been changed. Why nerf it now?Enar
 * Two knockdowns makes it very difficult to do anything. :/ --71.229.204.25 20:16, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If you change the bane signet or whatever crap smite thing you use with Iron Palm then go augury dd ea sig of shock iron palm, dd them again while they get up then SoJ it's 3 knockdowns :3 but if the monk has SoA on them gg to you, or any condition/hex removal can put you in a nonfatal position.  Meaning holy veil your augury or mend touch after getting up the first time.  If any changes needed to be made I'd say Increase recharge of dd to 10 at max and fix augury.  Now to say why I'm picking on augury.  I've seen me/a p/a a/mo e/a w/a everything pretty much /a with augury.  Deep wound simply for falling below half health and bringing the enemy to you seems fine.  But the 5 energy 1 cast 12 recharge when it lasts 30 seconds seems beastly.  Maybe lower the duration, or increase energy, or increase recharge. No sense to make something of the sort so easy to use and just leave on as a passive hex that after enough bashing of course their health will fall below half! 74.229.66.241 21:04, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The advantages of using Signet of Judgement on an assacaster are it's totally free, it's a guaranteed KD, and it's ranged. Iron Palm has none of those.  And yeah, Augury needs to beaten savagely with the nerf bat. --71.229.204.25 21:27, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Iron palm is usually used when augury kicks in that way youre in ranged for the 3rd KD - soj>dp>dd>ea>aug>dd/sots>iron palm>dd/sots - at least with dp nerfed having SF while the sins do this is pretty much gone 09:09, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Feedback from the Skill balance team?
It's been way over a week, have we gotten any feedback about these skill changes? I haven't seen any so it makes wonder. I find it a bit contradictory that a while ago, Izzy said there was concern over "those crazy KD builds" (which resulted in deadly paradox's nerf), and yet with the nerf on BLS and HotO, the only result has been really to encourage this build. 2 out of 3 sins I see in RA and AB are A/Mo assacasters, am I the only perceiving this? If the (over)use of SP was such a concern, with the nerf to HotO's damage it was more than enough I'm sure to destroy the solo killing capacities of SP sins with HotO.


 * Change Black Lotus back!, there was a reason why sp sins were over used..."All the other builds sucked compared to it" AoD was a close to but.. no slow down and also there is only 1 offhand that starts off with an enchantment. If that was to force L-o-D.. then well, buff the leads and off hands.

Horns really didn't deserve the damage reduced to that much. Impale ... well it was good but the 1 cast time makes it useless. Exposed defenses.. well, nice one beating a skill with a crappy recharge to a useless one. Rigor mortis is ALOT better and assassins don't need a ias.. we use to play without it because AoD was and still is the best shadow step. Go in and get out.68.20.17.16 15:05, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Mesmer

 * : increased recharge time to 20 seconds.

How about just change the damn durations with ineptitude and clumsiness instead of this shit?--Thelordofblah 07:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * How about change ineptitude back to 15s recharge and leave the durations alone. Thanks 70.132.2.120 08:03, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * IMO, at 15 recharge this skill was never a problem. Other blinding options are more spammable. --Shadetz X 12:18, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Ineptitude isnt the problem with dual illusion mesmers. Please unnerf and tweak clumsiness instead, thank you. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.166.90.50 (talk &bull; contribs) 18:03, 14 November 2007 (UTC).
 * Agree with the comments on this being an unnecessary reversion; Ineptitude barely justified its elite status even after the buff - a common problem with Illusion elites in general. The problem skill on the template is Clumsiness, not Ineptitude. -Ensign 12:49, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Clumsiness is a bit too good; this nerf tipped the balance from Ineptitude from being somewhat ok to poor. - IxChel 03:24, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Ineptitude should be placed back on 15 second recharge, with clumsiness taking a hit in either half its current duration or slightly longer recharge. Holymasamune 08:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Said once, and will be said again... Recharge was not the problem it was duration! change this back and drop both this and clumsiness duration to a few seconds 06:39, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Monk
Plz explain--Thelordofblah 07:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * : decreased unconditional heal amount to 5..130.
 * I think the reason is that the buff earlier this week was a little over the top, so that that is probably why it got scaled down again. Nicky Silverstar 07:43, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I expected this. There was too many wammos. --Shadetz X 12:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, expected. Everyone and their uncle and their uncles uncle was running this.  ZB monks turned into WoH with prots, nonmonk professions could heal ~200, in PvE this made a good bit of things harder.  It was bound to happen but they didn't say this was permanent either did they.  I like the change to be honest, doesn't ruin the skill and it's still better than it use to be.  74.229.66.241 14:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Hehehe I put this and healing breeze on my mesmer with 12 healing prayers and it was awsome for survival. Im not sure how He will fair now with the decreased healing but it may still be enough. At least now its not overpowered. I'm suprised I didnt see more necros, eles, or basically other classes besides monk and warriors use this more often. ~ajc2123 &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.183.125.212 (talk &bull; contribs) 20:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC).
 * A lot of ele builds are usually focused around their elite and such, unlike warriors who have a decent DPS even without an elite. But sadly some people STILL consider this imbalanced. If any more changes should be made I think a 1 second cast time is the most it needs because that's what most healing spells have. Btw thanks for fixing GW:EN Mhenlo. 74.229.66.241 20:28, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Its not really overpowered considering you need a fairly high, if not max healing prayers for it to be effective, AND its an elite skill so that takes up my mesmers slot for other things. A one second cast time would be reasonable, not a lot and not too little. But with my fast casting it shouldn't be a problem with me ^_^ ajc2123

Necromancer

 * Soul Reaping: no longer gains any benefit from Spirits.
 * wow,finally.--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 04:16, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd have to agree I don't see why they waited so long. What must have benefit did necros have from this besides N/rt.  Of course there was synergy with rits but being able to spend energy to give necros energy in a bit seemed over the top and not too many teams had both a necro and a rit.   Now will they remove the timer? 74.229.66.241 04:28, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ... *waits for Binding Ritual buffs* ... -- Gordon Ecker 04:53, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I hope for all you necromancers out there, that Soul Reaping gets altered (not neccesarily buffed, but made more practical) soon. I know this change was needed, but every profession should have a semi-decent primary (if not in stats then at least in skills). Maybe Anet could add an enchantment skill that adds additional energy when something dies, kinda like an attunement. If it can be removed, then it is less of a problem right? Just trying to help you guys out... Nicky Silverstar 08:01, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah those poor PvE Necromancers with the best primary attribute in the game. Whatever will they do with the crazy energy regeneration they get from Soul Reaping? -Ensign 09:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but Soul Reaping is totally outclassed by Spawning Power. --Deathwing 22:52, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Could have been done months before. Remove all energy gain from spirits, but leave SR alone otherwise, not with 3-in-15 timers and stuff like that. Result: PvP and PvE people happy. I somehow have the gut feeling SR is still not done getting balanced, which is getting on my nerves. Also see below, the state of Necros in PvP has not improved. --Longasc 08:39, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * THANK YOU! - Aeon Supernova 12:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Alright, only a few more updates until minions hopefully, and at least pets dont give +30 additional SR anymore from bone minions. Definitely a big step in the right direction izzy. I bet even half SR from minions would be balanced and still be usable for MM in pve. Shard 18:05, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I thought this would never happen. I am happy to be proven wrong. (Anon)19:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * FINALLY24.47.18.113 20:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * LOL at the guy who wants soul reaping benefit from minions... Why the fcuk do u think soul reaping is a necromancers primary??? So they raise an army and gain energy foo 24.141.45.72 22:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * LOL at the guy who didn't read my post completely. Read it again and lern2comprehend plx. And you think SR is a primary because of 3 skills?  Just...wow. 72.235.48.41 09:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Does this mean we can finally get rid of the stupid 3 SRs in 15 seconds rule? It's not like people can abuse that with spirits anymore.
 * LOL at the guy why complains about people not reading his posts, while using lEEtspeak.Rhydeble 08:46, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * So instead of misreading my posts and making idiotic comments about it, could you post things having to do with this change? That's what the page is for. 72.235.48.41 17:24, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * took a while but major changes to SR this patch... happiness... however soul reaping no long work with souls (just thinkin of the wordplay) 09:25, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

From a PvE MM perspective, I think that removing SR from minions, coupled with also removing the timer will results in an overall improvement in the energy returns from SR, while also not being exploitable in PvP. Skills like Jagged Bones, Shambling Horror and OoU really mess up SR returns currently by causing extra triggers at unexpected times. It would be better to not have any returns from minions, but get 100% returns from monsters/players. Carinae Dragonblood 23:15, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Ranger

 * : increased damage to 5..20 damage.
 * As if this would have been necessary. I know rangers who use Barrage 99% of the time, and the 1% they do not use it, they use BHA in PvE. It is a bad appeasement for "no corpses from pets". --Longasc 08:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Or was it to make up for nerfing PvE splinter too? I cant really say anything about this since it's not really run too much in PvP and spamming 1 all day is boring.  Will volley be changed at all? 74.229.66.241 14:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I have one of those PvE rangers that spams Barrage 99% of the time, and even I have to say barrage doesn't need to be more powerful. The splinter weapon nerf hurt barrage teams, but if you think about how these teams dominated Tombs and Urgoz's Warren, they could probably stand to be taken down a notch. It's not good to encourage single-profession teams (or single-profession damage dealers + support). --Ctran 21:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The Problem with Barrage in (at least high lvl) PvE is not so much the low Damage but the line of sight requirement. Still hoping a bit that one day there will be a PvE only skill "Phase Arrows", that removes the line of sight requirements for your bow attacks. That way you could actually fill in a dmg slot in PvE Groups as a Ranger.134.130.183.235 11:51, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * : decreased duration to 1..31 seconds.
 * Ok this is what I don't like. A decent skill that has been around for ages.  Never caused many problems but due to the one way it was used in one build, assuming this was due to RaO thumpers, it was nerfed.  I've seen thumpers work without this as it and it actually has other uses what do you know.  So, why nerf a decent skill to near uselessness due to one way it can be used. Why not have expertise kick in before this effect is added in and at least see how that goes? What's beyond brutal is it's 15 energy STILL and probably dies in 1 hit if not expires before you get around to killing it.  74.229.66.241 04:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I would have preferred the old duration, cap energy reduction up from 10 to 15, and perhaps have expertise act first on the skills. I don't think trappers are destroyed, because QZ is still reliably available.--Skye Marin 13:57, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This nerf was just too far. You already removed the N/Rt's out of the game. Why ruin a perfectly good skill if used with any build? It wasn't overpowered at all. Besides, no one runs LoD, play with that, plz. [[Image:UserDrago-sig.gif]]  Drago  23:18, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * EW at 10 BM dies at 21 seconds. Every other spirit except the previously named ones die at 30 seconds at 0 WS/BM. And those 3 die at 21 seconds at 3 BM/WS. Furthermore, EW is the only Ranger Spirit that doesn't level from 1..10. How can anyone think this skill is fine as is, when the duration is cut by 80%, cost is tripled, and the level is halved ? It's useless on anything short of an Oath Shot Ranger. It's completely dead for Solo Trapping purposes and crap for Multi-trapping purpose as well, since it'd take 2 Rangers with high BM, which cuts back on the damage from the WS traps. If ANet wanted it nerfed for Sway purposes, move the spirit to WS and revert the changes. It'd be a nice thing to do for Trappers as well. 80.133.110.162 01:05, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that a move to WS would be better for the skill, though it would still need its numbers hammered to keep it from simply popping up on a trapper. Numbers more in like with Quickening Zephyr might be preferable to where it's at now. -Ensign 12:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * : increased disable time to 10 seconds; decreased recharge time to 5 seconds.
 * This is finally a step in the right direction. I might actually consider using this as a serious elite now. But is it 10 additional seconds (as in normal spell recharge +10, like Distracting) or just 10 seconds? Arshay Duskbrow 04:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's overpowered. Now it's like a less expensive version of Psychic Distraction with no drawbacks. Have fun Rangers :) 70.132.2.120 06:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Projectile flight time isn't a drawback? -- Gordon Ecker 06:54, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Projectile flight time is very trivial compared to 8 seconds disabled skillbar. 70.132.2.120 07:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Update: After testing, I'm very excited. It really is an Elite version of Savage Shot that is worth it. An unblockable Savage that disables spells. An interrupter's dream skill. It isn't overpowered if you consider the formula. Savage (already strong) + Elite strength. This is the kind of skill that can diversify and shake up Ranger builds in a way we've been badly needing, and I'll say it here as I said it elsewhere: Please leave this skill just like this. Arshay Duskbrow 07:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * That's right, now this new Magebane Shot is going to replace Burning Arrow as the overpowered skill you always want to use. I also think it's funny you don't want to admit it's overpowered when you use terms like "interrupter's dream skill" and "godly" to describe this new Magebane Shot. 70.132.2.120 08:15, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It has other drawbacks too, like blurred vision, blindness, targets just spells...that comment really made no sense IMHO. Nicky Silverstar 07:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh please, similarly Psychic Distraction has other drawbacks like dazed, backfire, guilt, migraine, linked to Domination Magic. And Magebane Shot can interrupt any skill not just spells for your information. 70.132.2.120 07:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems like the only person who has a problem with this is you. It isn't overpowered. This is what an Elite interrupt skill should be like. As has been stated, there are plenty of defenses against this. Use the terrain, hexes, blind, etc. You have only yourself to blame if you're letting Rangers take a clean shot. Arshay Duskbrow 08:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Are you kidding me? How are monks supposed to use hexes or blind against a interrupt ranger? Use the terrain? That'd be nice idea if 95%+ of the field wasn't open terrain. So looks like there's really no way to defend againt Magebane Shot and since Magebane Shot is an "interrupter's dream skill" and "godly" therefore it is overpowered. 70.132.2.120 20:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Monks aren't. They are supposed to rely on their team to protect them just as they would against a shutdown Mesmer. Maybe this will make Rangers higher priority targets, which would be pretty interesting I think. And wow, you sure do love linking to that. I think we've all seen it by now, so you can stop, although I'm happy you're so fascinated by my edits. :) Arshay Duskbrow 22:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It' definitely elite status now. XD --Redfeather 09:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with him, this is overpowered now. Something needs to be done about it. I do admit I love the idea of my ranger being able to distract the overflow of people who don't run behind things or dodge arrows, but at the same time if your using the right bow that makes it almost impossible to dodge, I just dont wanna see my ranger overpowered, i like a challenge. This is what i typed in another section. (This skill is actually a bit TOO overpowered in my opinion, unblockable, extremly low recharge and energy cost, even though energy isn't a problem with rangers. ONLY way to stop it is to blind. I just don't like the idea of rangers being able to disrupt almost anything with only one skill and a condition removal for possible blindness. Perhaps a change could be if you disrupt a nonspell skill, the recharge of Magebane shot is increased by 5-3 seconds? 10 Energy Maybe? But not both at the same time)~ ajc2123 &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.183.125.212 (talk &bull; contribs) 20:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC).
 * Perfect change, i doubt we can go further into buffing this skill now, it has DistraShot's cost, half its disableing, it's unblockable and has Savage Shot's recharge. It's somehow the best hybrid of both (+ unblockable )an interrupter can get. I don't think it's going to be overpowered though, because Savage and Distracting are still able to handle interruption tasks and i think that Crip'Shot and BA will still rule in PvP (although Magebane + ShS might do wonders in a skill bar) however we might see more interruption-oriented builds in the near future, which is actually pretty good or more different interruption builds (apart from BHA for instance)  Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 12:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it makes many mesmer interrupts look like trash (of course, perhaps they are?) - IxChel 03:28, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Now let's wait for people to use it. It looks very good on paper. Now I can think about important things, like what the skill icon of Magebane Shot symbolizes actually. --Longasc 16:12, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Lolz, this skill owned in the last update. I can't wait to use it now.  This skill should be renamed "PD arrow." Shard 18:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

While this skill is decent now, I'm still not sure it will be used. The reason for this is, unlike BA or Cripshot, the ranger with magebane would be worthless to split, which is a big bonus of rangers. And really, with flight time included, this isn't nearly as good as PD for interrupting as people seem to think (although it gets close if you're in melee with them). Furthermore, the fact that Dshot and SS exist really dim the need for this, as with both those on one bar you have huge interrupting capabilities as is. I suspect the vast majority of rangers still won't use this skill. 76.102.172.202 06:53, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I am a ranger in top tier GvG and I thought I'd put my two cents in. This skill in its current form is VERY effective in cutting through passive defense in order to kill teams with pressure. Without an unblockable interrupt, ranger interrupts often miss or are blocked by skills like "Shields Up!", Defensive Anthem, Aegis, or stances. Even when trying to interrupt skills like Aegis, a ranger is often blocked by another skill. This layered nature of the defense of many teams allows for a perpetual defense that is hard for a ranger to put a dent in. That said, Crippling Shot is still a much more versatile and useful elite overall, making Magebane difficult to bring without changing the team build. The fact that a GvG ranger must sacrifice the strong movement control and splittablity of Crippling Shot simply for a skill-based counter to Passive Defense makes it a balanced GvG skill. - The Champ Is Here
 * Thanks for the report, Champ. It's good to know that a new layer of Ranger GvG strategy has been added by the changes to this skill, and I'm sure we can agree that good counters to passive defense are desirable. Arshay Duskbrow 01:26, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This is ridicilous. I agree that Magebane was useless before it's buff, but this update creates too much problems in PvP. 2 rangers with absolutely no skill can constantly spam this with d-shot and savage shot to their heart's content. Monks are supposed to counter this how? Your team cannot help you, because of the fact that rangers are equipped with skills such as natural stride that provide them immunity to melee attackers. Since the nerf to wards, no eles to counter these super powered rangers. Any mindless idiot can spam magebane, d-shot and savage shot with no problem to e-management. This buff to magebane is ridicilous, and as far as im concerned, it is considered broken. No doubt that guilds will take advantage of this, but something has to be done about magebane. BHA, BA and crip shot were doing fine in GvG and HA. I dont understand the useless point of allowing people with absolutely no skill but to button mash should be taking over high ranked monks. Either up the energy costs to the point where rangers cannot spam this skill, even with points into expertise, and/or up the recharge time.Sj1608 07:39, 4 December 2007 (UTC)Sj1608

I ran into a gvg team running two rangers with this skill last night. Neither of them were any good at interrupting, but they would both sit on one of our monks and just spam this skill on recharge hoping to get lucky, which takes it's toll after 10+ minutes of fighting at the flag stand. I think the energy cost needs to go up to 10 or increase the recharge to 8 seconds to reduce mindless spamming of this skill. A 10 energy cost wouldn't hurt a ranger with the skill to time an interrupt, but would wear down someone that endlessly spams this skill even with high expertise. We still won, but it felt broken on the receiving end having that much trouble from two guys that couldn't interrupt a 1 second cast time with a d-shot from point blank if they tried. --Rururrur 03:53, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I just ran into the same problem in TA, ranger with magebane, savage shot, distract shot with SQ litterly sat there and spammed it. His first barrages of interrupts failed because at first I did not have to heal much but towards the end he disabled every single skill I had and even every 1/4th cast fairly easily spamming when pressure was up.  Why not add in another effect to stop spamming such as if you fail to interrupt this attack is disabled for an additional 10...5 seconds maybe depending on expertise? Or do you promote no skill spam?  74.229.66.241 14:06, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I love the changes to the magebane shot, a non-prepared unblockable interrupt is a very nice addition to an interrupter's bar. BUT, right now, it does have the overpowering anomaly that desperately needs to be attended to. The problem will arise in all situations the skill is used for non-spell interrupts. I have been hit with it a few times when using signets and an extra 10 seconds on say a resurrection signet is a little much. --65.93.165.223 17:52, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd have to say make things more skill oriented and leave them as they are. If their going to have interrupts so spammable. I started a round and I was hit with 3 distract shots and 3 savage shots and I DIDN'T EVEN MORE OR CAST YET! It's crazy how obvious people make it that their shooting blanks.  Make things more skill related like concussion shot please. 74.229.66.241 20:58, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This is soooo overpowered, every ranger is running this in all forms of pvp. Its unblockable, spammable, takes a caster completely out of action. It's hard to get blind to stick on rangers, and even then you would need a character locked onto the ranger blinding it. Came up against a team of 3 rangers and a rit healer in ra today, all 3 rangers ran this, savage + d-shot. 9 interrupts focused on 4 people, its WTFLQL. Completely imbalanced and needs a nerf, and fast. 86.145.253.152 22:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

This skill is NOT overpowered. I'm sorry, but I'll have to go ahead and ignore the comments that say otherwise. On "...an extra 10 seconds on say a resurrection signet is a little much." Distracting shot can do that, and add another 10 seconds, and isn't elite. On the comment "I was hit with 3 distract[ing] shots and 3 savage shots and I DIDN'T EVEN MORE[MOVE?] OR CAST YET!" which artfully tells us nothing about the skill in question (Magebane Shot) while exagerating or stating that he is leeching. On the comment by 86.145.253.... Ridiculous exagerations aside, does manage to note that rangers are good in ra, but fails to notice that, even if magebane was removed from the game, there are still more than 3 intrupts that rangers can use. On 70.123's comments on how "godly" it is: we can read what they said without you linking us the same thing twice, and, amazingly, as stated above, people Italic textcanItalic text exagerate. People can have high opinions on something without that thing being unbalancing or overpowered. Later, on your comment on PD having blocks as well as ranger bow-based intrupts, while maintaining your aura of sarcasm, fails to note that daze and anti caster hexes are significantly more expensive than blind and melee hate. On 74.299's comments: Ranger intrupts do have an effect to keep them from hitting you canstantly. They have aftercast. A fairly significant one at that. Cast AFTER you're hit with an intrupt, and you'll be safe (ignoring 2 sec or higher cast times). On Rururrur's comment: you think this skill is unbalanced because 2 intrupt rangers that focused completely on one monk could disable him/her? What?!?!!? Keep the skill as it is, izzy. Sword.wind. 02:30, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Player Pets: no longer leave exploitable corpses.
 * Who needs synergies between pets and minions. Just make things artificial and odd, maybe someone can enlighten me about the reasons for this change. Does not hurt that much, it just feels wrong. --Longasc 08:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The ever-popular B/P team build. 3 to 4 rangers with Barrage and pets with an MM and a Monk. The pets tank and provide Soul Reaping fuel and corpses for minions when they die. It was the latter bit they were targetting. Arshay Duskbrow 08:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Necromancers use corpses, stuff that dies leaves corpses, how is that artificial or odd? -- Gordon Ecker 08:56, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I meant the part that dead pets do not leave corpses, this is what I call "artificial". --Longasc 16:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I am just wondering how to do Foundry without ursan blessing. This is the only change i really don't like. However i also see no way to make the oftenly used B/P build less attractive to use without this change. Tho hopefully pets can get back to the way they were. Just so people are not forced to use ursan blessing to be able to finish Foundry. - Damadmoo 12:54, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Living, fleshbaggy things that don't leave corpses doesn't make much sense.  Just half or scrap SR on minions and revert this. Shard 18:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You should play your Necro more often before making such suggestions...^^ --Longasc 22:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Why? Because Minion Master is the only build necros are allowed to use? There are uses for necromancers outside of pve you know. I never use minions on my necros and I still find myself having more than enough energy for the build. 72.235.48.41 09:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I play SS/Curses myself, but before we get into a discussion of viable pve necro builds in the ranger changes, I must admit that my point was not clear: No gain from minions or only half energy would be a dramatic and radical change to MM's in PvE, which are not seen in PvP outside of AB's at all. The use of Bone Minions as "soul reaping energy generators", mainly in HA, is not that common that it would cry for such radical measures now that spirits have already been fixed. --Longasc 10:25, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * How would a minion SR change be devastating to pve? They changed this for ONE reason: To stop minion exploits of pets in spiritway teams.  However, spiritway is still an 11 man build, things will die.  Everything that dies gives normal soul reaping, then an additional 30 from the bone minions regardless of the fact that pets become ethereal when they pass out.  A change to SR is more elegant, makes more sense, and makes the game more balanced.  Even the worst minion masters can get away with half energy from minions.  If not, the costs for those skills can be lowered. 72.235.48.41 17:32, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * A pet is an animal and follows the rules of fleshy creatures, in that they're vulnerable to bleeding, poison and disease, but now it has the exception that unlike other fleshy creatures, it does not leave a corpse. This change is as elegant as if they had changed Ancestors' Rage by keeping it as an enchanment, but with the exception that it's not affected by Enchantments last longer mods. Such exception to rules is not good. - Innocence 192.6.178.101 13:05, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Discussion
Pets should still leave the exploitable corpses in PVE areas. Most of the Ranger/Necromancer builds I use actually rely on the exploitable corpse of my pet. In PVP, though I am not sure. -Mikeydragon 03:36, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank god for SR & pet changes, rest of them look pretty decent as well. Only wish it came a year ago. - MH &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.113.7.181 (talk &bull; contribs) 06:17, 14 November 2007 (UTC).

Speaking as a player who enjoys PvE over 600% more than PvP these recent skill changes and MOST notably the changing of the pet exploitable body are beyond devastating. They outright remove the builds and methods of almost all existing farming groups in the game. Minion masters in areas where the enemies leave NO bodies depend on corpses from the pets to make their way. Changes to Energizing Winds and spirits in general are completely damning to farming groups that havent needed to be changed from nearly 2 and a half years ago, mind you there were not easy to still use just more effective than the alternative. To be fully honest if you dont like mm's in AB or HA etc... then decrease the time a body is available to be exploited or decrease the range of the spell... here is a new approach include a health sacrifice to summon an undead minion (makes since from a classic RPG standpoint aswell). -- GW user: Leviathan Scourge 72.93.30.218 04:18, 14 November 2007 (UTC) (moved from other discussion page since I posted this there by mistake) &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.93.30.218 (talk &bull; contribs) 06:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC).
 * I agree yet disagree. Another approach would help. Making minion masters sacrifice double would make it almost unmanageable alone and a burden on the monks.  I dislike the fact that due to gimmick pvp builds they ruin the skills even for people who don't even pvp.  74.229.66.241 04:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Farming builds are essentially exploits by definition. Minion masters are already easy mode in PvE and always have been.  MMs in AB do not need pets or spirits.  Spawning level 0 bone minions as energy batteries is not an interesting strategy. Riotgear 06:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * LOL it's "beyond devastating"! people have to forget that unique build everyone had no choice but to use when it works with about 1000 other builds. Farming in pve is dead omg! Ichiko 11:12, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Try Spiteful Spirit, or Spoil Victor. All four necromancer attributes work great in PvE, how many other professions can make that claim? -- Gordon Ecker 11:38, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

From original poster: The main problem is when you are going into an area where the enemies leave no corpses. Pets are an integral part of teams that like to challenge them selves there. *sigh* i guess people are just going to reactionary post to this without fully listening to the original post but the constant tampering with the PvE world is turning to a real turn off for all of us PvEer's. In anycase the pet issue truly needs to be addressed for the overwhelming concerns of the PvE community at large.GW Account: Leviathan Scourge 72.93.30.218 13:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I have an MM but I never cared about exploitable pets, so I'm not too pissed about this one.  Vanguard  12:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I posted this on the other page, didn't notice the tag at the top until after I posted it so I'll re-post it here: 'Is the Pet and Soul Reaping changes mentioned in the Update (in PvP) working? I swear that while watch a couple of HoH matches the necros where using the pet corpses as wells and minion fodder still.' &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.165.84.250 (talk &bull; contribs) 19:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC).
 * Wait, because some idiots were using level 0 bone minions as energy management in pvp with pet corpses, you had to nerf one of the oldest and most popular PvE party builds in the game?!?!? That is just really fucking stupid. Make soul reaping scale with minion level or something - think about it before you just slap on a ridiculous nerf - they can't seriously pay someone to do this, it's clear not a lot of thought went into it. This is ridiculous and un-needed. How many times do the exploits of a non primary profession fuck up what is balanced for another profession based on some imbalance in their own abilities? Pets NEED to leave corpses, it makes sense for them to do so and balancing soul reaping in a logical way rather than nerfing everything it touches makes more sense. This is one the biggest /fail "balances" yet. 58.110.141.210 00:59, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I heard Izzy was paid by an association of grasps of insanity to make this worst change in the game ever. Those mobs were complaining about being overfarmed by people spamming barrage and letting their pets died for some necromancers to use their corpses. In addition to that absolute cruelty regarding animals, those mobs were truely concerned about the lack of abilities this kind of pvers were continualy showing. So now you know the truth, grasps want you to get better. Ichiko 03:59, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go solo-farm ectos with a build and guide someone else wrote up. --71.229.204.25 04:32, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yer we should all solo farm with our 55/300/600 builds now. Casual group PvE is now fucked, the area didn't even hav good drops, it was just a fun good time so they fucking nerfed pet corpses without a single fucking consideration for PvE. No-one on the skill balance team prolly plays much PvE, let alone B/P farming builds so they don't fucking care if they shit all over one of the most enjoyable group builds in the game, as long as their precious GvG isn't being exploited, who cares if the majority of of players DON'T care about HA or GvG, but they DO care about their PvE builds, and after splinter we should all just delete our rangers, aside from trapping they will never be wanted in group play any more. 58.106.236.226 09:13, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Being forced to use another build doesn't change the fact that the "no pet corpse thing" killed another viable build in pve. Diversity -1 ftl. 87.189.249.97 12:48, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Dude, GW was built for GvG, there's video of members of the design team flat-out saying it. And half these nerfs seem aimed at wrecking GvG too, or so the QQ forums have told me.  And don't delete your ranger, go cap RaO and run a thumper - they're still perfectly viable. :) --71.229.204.25 23:52, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Who runs thumpers in PvE? -- Gordon Ecker 01:33, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * What, you mean you don't? :O
 * srsly, tho, try it. It's not exactly effective, but it's damn fun. --71.229.204.25 08:15, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * So after two years or three, pets leaving corpses suddenly became overpowered and had to be removed, orly ? Someone explain plz. 87.189.207.152 10:28, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really sure what exactly they wanted to hit with that change but if it was some kind of minion battery thing i just would have removed minions from soul reaping gain and reduced minion spell costs to 5-10 energy depending on type. That way you would have resolved soul reaping exploits with minions once and for all and wouldn't have caused so many sideeffects. As for the hits this has in PvE, while i agree that it hit a lot of PvE builds, it is a vast exaggeration to claim them beeing dead now. You maybe have to change those builds slightly, but they all still work. There are a lot of new PvE skills around that more than compensate for a few less corpses in a pet barrage group for example. The worst problem this had for PvE though was IMHO corpse teleporting in DoA. While you still can teleport in Inferno, now you have to take a flesh golem with you, rather than a pet. So now instead of having 2 useless nonelites to carry around you have one useless elite, which is much more painful for most builds.134.130.183.235 12:34, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Well its disappointing to see anet just ignoring the numeric majority of people regarding the exploitable corpse problem. The constant indifference of the skill balance changes that never consider people who prefer to play PvE is enough to drive away alot of people from the next incarnation of the game.72.74.15.144
 * Dude. Pay attention this time.  THIS GAME WAS NEVER GEARED TOWARDS PVE.  Guild Wars was conceived, designed, created, and balanced to cater to high-end PvP.  Just because that attitude has apparently gone down the shithole doesn't change much.
 * If you want a PvE game that badly, I suggest WoW. There's plenty of private servers around if you don't want to pay. --71.229.204.25 12:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

---Really... i purchased Guild Wars to play out an epic campaign with my friends and share the experience with them. Simply saying 'THIS GAME WAS NEVER GEARED TOWARDS PVE' is hardly a valid excuse since the game was MARKETED for both aspects. Your simple and asinine response to a valid grievance to the company purposely marketed their product for. Also advocating that people switch to World of Warcraft as a valid alternative to buying or playing guild wars is perhaps the most infuriating thing you brought up. MANY people dislike the lack of an EPIC storyline in that badly comprised game. What 'we' (ie the PvE playing community) want is to be considered in the continual development of the game. Flame responses to this post are expressly not welcome. 72.74.15.144


 * Yeah. Do you know how much grind is required to get top of the line equipment in World of Warcraft? -- Gordon Ecker 03:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes and one thing has nothing to do with the other. I care about Beating an EPIC story of me VS them.  Truly awe inspiring storyline with the ability to share the experience and gain the best toys via toil within that epic story.  Beyond that I despise the graphics, story, experience leveling, item acquisition system, or the economic system of WoW.  So why would I switch to a system I despise?  Beyond that you didn't address the primary point of my statement that Guild Wars is sold (on the box) first as a MMORPG [Massive Multi-player On-line Role Playing Game] (ie PvE) then as a MMORPFG [Massive Multi-player On-line Role Playing Fighting Game].72.74.15.144
 * My previous comment was an arguement against 71.229.204.25's "go play World of Warcraft" comment and in support of your "a lot of people don't want to play World of Warcraft" comment. I was providing another reason why some people don't want to play World of Warcraft. Also, private servers are illegal in a lot of countries, and even where they are legal, there's no guarantee that a given server will stay up. There's also the pushback mechanic and the lack of autorun. -- Gordon Ecker 09:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The Nintendo Powerglove was marketed as something other than a steaming plastic hunk of shit. Doesn't mean it's right.
 * Guild Wars is (mostly) geared towards PvP, and complaining about skill balances negatively affecting one skill or tactic that has a minor influence on one method of PvE doesn't hold much water when that one skill was totally breaking PvP. High-level PvP is much more sensitive to skill balance than PvE, and so it's a much better barometer of the state of the game than how long it takes to clear the Fissure of Woe.  For as long as decent GvG exists (not much longer at this rate, Fury's getting a very thorough eyeing), it will be the basis for skill balances.  Don't worry, I'm sure you'll find a new and interesting way to kill creatures with no variance in skill set or ability. :P --71.229.204.25 09:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And for the record, I do enjoy PvE. --71.229.204.25 09:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Skill balance decisions should be focused on PvP because PvP is far more vulnerable to skill balance problems, and pet corpses are a minor issue with a minor impact in PvE. If a profession is underpowered in PvE due to PvP-motivated skill changes, this can be dealt with by buffing the existing PvE skills, as was done to Cry of Pain in the latest update, or by adding more PvE skills. -- Gordon Ecker 11:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Soul reaping
Ok common, I can live with the nerf bat on the sins, But the soul reaping thing?? that just not right. Necros are hardly useful in PvP, with the exception of hybrid ritualist healers, but now they are gunna have energy issues. Keep the rest of the nerfs but boo to the soulreaping nerf. O and thanks (i guess) for killing sp, mebbe people will actually make their own builds. (and good job on last update, some real skills are being used now and people are actually having to learn how to monk w/out LoD) 24.141.45.72 03:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I angry fist this in hopes of it getting reverted to its original functionality... like prior time limit days...--68.102.128.17 04:00, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

About damn time. Now remove that ridiculous timer...Hyper Cutter 04:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I would REALLY like to see Soul Reaping overhauled, it's always been overly effective when built to exploit it and terribly ineffective otherwise. For the moment though, the abuse needed to stop. Riotgear 06:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

How about making Necros more viable in PvP instead of working for months on the one-trick-pony that makes them see PvP play, Soul Reaping. This class becomes more and more a pure PvE class, the extreme hate towards any kind of bloodspike is also incredible. OK, SR abuse has to go, but you cannot really want to kick Necros in the balls till they are gone from PvP completely. --Longasc 08:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * How can one "abuse" a subtle, primary attribute? It didn't deserve the first nerfbat, there's no reason for this one. Hell it's even called soul reaping. Ahem, ghosts? Spirits? SOULS? In my opinion: The timer should be shot, and it should be one energy gained per two points in soul reaping. So even at 8 or 10 SR, you get your energy management.  Vanguard [[Image:User-VanguardAvatar.PNG]] 12:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Didn't deserve the first nerf? Did you see the shit getting run in GvG? Lord of all tyria 12:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * No, I'm primarily PvE, with some AB and RA when absolutely bored.  Vanguard [[Image:User-VanguardAvatar.PNG]] 12:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Guilds ran 7 necro healers and an r/w spamming nature rituals, and spiking with icy veins. Because they had a stupid mass of spirits and once they made a kill, minions, they had unlimited energy. Unlimited energy, 7 healers, good spikes, imbalanced as hell. Lord of all tyria 12:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. But I think my idea of halving the energy gain would be a sufficient solution, provided the timer was killed too.  Vanguard [[Image:User-VanguardAvatar.PNG]] 12:33, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Vanguard, you need to watch some HA observe matches. Why do 90% of HA teams run spiritway?  Because they have 2 healers with infinite energy, you know, plus 6 frontliners, 2 trappers, and a channeling rit (with a 5 energy fireball and a portable choking gas).  Spiritway would be a hell of a lot easier to beat if the necros required energy for their skills. Shard 18:12, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * 2 healers, 6 frontliners, 2 trappers and a rit? since when did teams have 11 people?--68.100.33.76 00:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Objection sustained. RadaArashi 02:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Pets are level 20 sword warriors. We call warriors "frontliners" in pvp.  3 thumpers + 3 warriors + 2 healers + rit + 2 trappers = 11 characters in a spiritway team.
 * I also have to say, in response to "Necros are hardly useful in PvP...they are gunna have energy issues". The reason youre having energy issues with you rnecro is because you suck at managing energy.  Mesmers don't have an energy-linked primary attribute and they do just fine.  Rits don't have an energy-linked primary attribute and they do just fine.  Monks don't have an energy-linked primary attribute and they do just fine.  Don't cry just because you can't cheat as much anymore. 72.235.48.41 09:59, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Soul Reaping is abused for non-Necro-related activities. That Necros are used as inifinite energy healers is sad, they should be used as Necromancers. But hey, who uses Necros as Necros in PvP? Either it is an uber-specialized bloodspike or well, have not seen any Necro in GvG. And in HA teams, they are there for soul reaping abuse, and not for their other attribute lines or abilities. That is pretty sad. And now we are losing track by telling Vanguard about the way spiritway works somehow. --Longasc 10:31, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

(ri) apparently, for a reason unknown to me, spiritway is relevant to how SR is abused. I don't see much abuse in using whats given to you.  Vanguard 12:32, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Why not just take off the timer, and make it 1 energy for every 2 ranks of Soul Reaping? Should nerf it enough and give it back its old feel. 167.206.248.12 19:08, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, i said that exact thing already...  Vanguard [[Image:User-VanguardAvatar.PNG]]19:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Half SR everywhere is actually not a bad idea.
 * Vanguard...here's why there is a problem "abusing something given to you." If it's imbalanced, then it makes the game imbalanced.  That's why this page exists.  If people were allowed to abuse everything ever given to them, Signet of Ghostly Might would be the number one build in gvg today. 72.235.48.41 17:42, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

As one of the few guilds that use non-hex assassins (one grenth's grasp sin and a a/me deadly paradox sin with inspired and revealed enchantment, i admit, it's gay, but nothing does more pressure then that in a 3 man split (1 monk, 2 sins)). Anyway, when the hexes got hit hard (in my opinion). We decided to make a build around non-hexes, making it something different then anyone else played. We had good results with it. However, the reason for this to work, was because of 1 bar: grenth's grasp, golden phoenix, trampling ox, falling lotus, blades of steel, impale, whirling charge, death's charge. Reason this worked so well, was because it could spike very good on it's own but also in a team. Alone you would use the full combo, with a team, you'd only use golden phoenix, trampling ox and impale. That combination is basicly the only way to deal good damage in a "burst" way for an assassin that doesnt take longer then 2.5 seconds to apply (no IAS). However, this recent update made even that option bizarly crap. Why? simple. The assassin can not produce damage to kill anymore. The only way for assassins to kill now, is by dazing the target and/or using anti casting hexes, which again, makes the sin hex based. Sure, there are other options... 5 skill chains... 1 miss (or 2 when it comes to dual attacks) and the chain is broken, making you wait for 15 seconds (twisting fangs is a must since impale is nerfed so badly). One burst of damage that wont kill anything every 15 seconds. That is basicly what you have done with this update. You turned the basis of the assassin (hit and run, burst damage that is deadly) to a useless character that doesnt remotely do what a assassin should do (hit and run, very irregular burst damage that isnt deadly). The change to impale is just too much. Instead, the energy should be 10 with 1/4 cast and 15 recharge, maybe lower the damage done aswell (70 earth at 9 deadly arts seems a bit uber). Anyway, all i am saying as that this update killed every form of spike assassin (which is the basis for the assassin, or atleast, that is what anyone would expect it to be). My recommendation: change impale to 1/4 cast, 10 energy, 15 recharge. Revert the damage done by trampling and horns of the ox. Change expose so that rigor mortis isnt the better choice (cmon, expose defenses is complete garbage now, on splits every half decent monk would pre-veil and remove the expose in the 3/4 time of after cast before getting covered by prison). Increase damage done by lead attacks (maybe something like +10 to everyone, even those that just do conditions, like jagged strike), improve some off-hand attacks (some seem completely waste of skill slots). Something that i think would shake up the world of the assassin: Dual attacks that count as off-hand or lead attacks. Not only will this increase non-hex based sins, but other elite off-hands might see use for this aswell. Also imagine the amount of combo's you create. Obviously this isnt something for every dual attack, but it could be good for nine-tail strike and exhausting assault. Anyway, hope this might help towards making the sin balanced and worth having, instead of being inbalanced or not worth having. - Blade Bloodreaver
 * IMO as long as there is a large battles field with many players Soul Reaping will always be powerful. --Shadetz X 09:44, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Just change SR so that in order to gain energy you must run over and /dance on top of its corpse. I mean come on...I want to see the nerf to end all nerfs to this primary and besides who doesn't like the necro dance. Oh yeah...can we get D'Alessio Seaboard back please? 67.191.245.177 14:59, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Soul reaping is not overpowered and you only gain enery three times once every fifteen seconds. In pve your always having to wait around for your energy to recharge and three deaths at the same time means you will generally only be able to cast three additional spells and than having to wait another fifteen seconds before you will have energy again and in pvp it's even worse because deaths are not too often and for those who are complaining about recieving power from level zero bone minions, you have no one to blame but yourself because the spell has a fifteen second recast timer and a three second casting time and equiping a rune to decrease the time of corpse exploitations for only one skill is quie pointless. Another thing to keep in mind there are few if any good skills in the soul reapping attribute and your energy gain is depenedent on how much points you have into soul reaping so a higher energy gain from soul reaping means that your probably useless in terms of a player in terms of damage, hexing, or support. If anything the best energy management in the game is Energy Storage and combine with glyph of lesser energy almost always means that you will have energy to cast spells without ever having to run out of energy.Highway Man 22:16, 11 February 2008 (UTC)