Talk:Starburster/Archive 1

Eh, seen then twice in AB last week. What's up? 0_o ~ D.L. 14:08, 12 February 2007 (PST)
 * I didn't submit the deletion, but AB builds are bad examples of builds to write guides for. This Starbuster is an example of a bad build. AB builds are usually "kewl" builds people made up for fun, without a res sig. Case in (and?) point, all these vetted builds: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Build:A/E_Signet_Spiker http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Build:Me/E_FC_Water_Ele http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Build:R/E_Tainted_Flames --Narcism 14:17, 12 February 2007 (PST)
 * Come on, it's really useful! I've had Zhed run that build all weekend and he made them the mobs melt like ice in the sunshine. I've also played the build in AB to a certain extend and I have to say, it actually works. It's not just some cool looking idea, people play it because it works. We agreed on documenting builds, right? Also, I wasn't the first one to introduce the build to gww: At least Drekmonger considers them threat enough to kite them! ~ D.L.  14:24, 12 February 2007 (PST)
 * No reason to run that instead of Savannah Heat or Sandstorm in HA. It was a brief factions build because there wasn't anything better. &mdash; Skuld 14:26, 12 February 2007 (PST)
 * "i've had zhed run that build all weekend and he made them the mobs melt like ice in the sunshine." My Melonni ran a build throughout the game, and made chopped mobs like no other, but that doesn't mean it's good. I'd also like to mention, there were only 4 skills on her bar for the entire factions campaign.--Narcism 14:28, 12 February 2007 (PST)
 * I'm completely and solely talking about AB and PvE here. I do know that noone runs this type of build in HA and I've mentioned that nowhere. Also, I didn't invent the build, I just documented. What's there to argue anyway? There hasn't been any nerf going on, just like mending pallys, they still do exist. Oh, btw, I plan on writing an article about boonprots, want to delete that, too? I could save that efford, you know. ~ D.L. 14:33, 12 February 2007 (PST)
 * "Boon prot was a build used prior to the factions balances, it comprised of using Divine Boon combined with protection spells for a versatile build, it has fallen out of favour due to nerfs to it's energy managment, reduced healing and increased recharge on the Divine Boon enchantment and Avatar of Grenth" <-- something like that, this page makes it sound like the Starburster is a viable build though. &mdash; Skuld 14:39, 12 February 2007 (PST)
 * And to fix that, you'll delete it? Think twice. That's not what we wanted. ~ D.L. 14:43, 12 February 2007 (PST)


 * The argument I'm making, which is different from Skuld's, is that, this build is terrible. Regardless if people use it, it's bad. PvE and AB, just like Random Arena are not markers for prime builds. You make the argument about mending pallys, they still exist, you're right, but they're terrible. You mention boonprots, unfortunately, i fear your boonprot article will be doomed to the same fate as an Ether Prodigy Blinding Flash article.

You can PvE with a lack of skills, and subpar armor. You can be a melee assassin in pve, that just shows that PvE is not a benchmark. HA kind of is, which is why, there were starbursters in Ch2, but they dont' exist anymore, all fire ele's in ha have moved to Searing flames. --Narcism 14:45, 12 February 2007 (PST)
 * And actually no, they haven't. SF got nerfed badly and if you count the damage output, Starburst is a lot above the average. A lot of people got back to dual attunements after the nerf and use a combination of Fireball and Flare. I've seen some PvE this weekend and at least for now, I'll see myself as capable of judgement. And I still don't see the "terrible" part here. ~ D.L. 14:50, 12 February 2007 (PST)
 * Searing flames is good in groups of 4+, otherwise the fire line is garbage, bar Savannah on altars in HA (and AB I guess, i've used sandstorm in there) &mdash; Skuld 14:57, 12 February 2007 (PST)
 * I'm chipping in here only to answer your question, D.L., so you understand what point of view the others are talking from when they say that this build is terrible (even though I wouldn't use that word; I've peeked down into that bottomless pit that is RA, and there are far more scary builds that lurk down there :P). The point of starburst eles was never to deal decent damage over time (as a squishy with zero defense, you really don't want to be on the front lines for more than you have to). Their only purpose back in HA was for spike teams (in other words, kill them before they can kill you, avoiding the risk caused by being in the front line). A bunch of starbursters together could spike relatively frequently.
 * This page is suggesting a solo build though, which obviously can't really spike anything, thus voiding the entire concept around which this build was created in the first place. Your chain is Starburst-->Inferno-->Flameburst, which takes 5 full seconds to complete (with an extra 1.75s PBAoE aftercast that follows). EVEN IF during your enemies are so bad that they don't move out of your extremely minute damage range during 5 whole seconds, but just sit there and tank you, you'll still be doing a mere 346 damage (which lets not forget is greatly reduced by armor). Point being? It is nowhere enough to kill anything. You didn't kill them. They're still alive and kicking. Now what? Now you're a sitting duck right next to that big bad warrior who's spent the last five seconds building adrenaline on you, and against whom you have zero defenses, zero snares, zero ways to stop him from just killing you.
 * You are going to retort with a "but it works in AB and PvE!" It works in PvE and AB not because of starburst, but simply because of this kind of damage: AoE, Area of Effect. You're basically packing a bunch of AoE nukes, and dropping them on your enemy. And since this is AB or PvE, the enemy doesn't flee. Hence, you win. Starburst has nothing to do with it. Heck, Aftershock does the same amount of damage, has the same energy cost, same recharge time, same casting time. And with the recent buffs to Earth nukes like Churning Earth or Eruption, those are far more appropriate for a character that's aiming to do unhealthy amounts of AoE damage than a Starburst spiker. Hope that makes sense. --Dirigible 15:41, 12 February 2007 (PST)

Okay, why it's terrible: --Narcism 15:00, 12 February 2007 (PST)
 * You're using AB and PvE as a basis for your judgement. What I'm seeing, which may not be accurate is. THIS WORKS IN ______ THUS IT IS GOOD. Keep in mind, PvE is full of bots, and AB is full of bots + dolyak signet/shield stance warriors and healing hands.
 * Your strategy of knocklocking opponents, is only handy every what.. 90 seconds? in those other 90 seconds, you're a 60 AL target running into melee.
 * Searing Flames is in the game, and skuld also suggested savanahah heat

Show as Historic
Why not leave the article, but show it as a historical character type that is no longer any good? --24.70.156.236 15:06, 12 February 2007 (PST)
 * I like this compromise --Narcism 15:08, 12 February 2007 (PST)
 * Actually, this is actually one of the best choices for AB builds. History has proven that, especially with this build able to kill much better in AB's than even SF eles. However, as good a build that this is, it does not deserve its own page. Simply put, delete. &mdash; Rapta (talk|contribs) 15:08, 12 February 2007 (PST)
 * Yes. Shut this door before the "it works for me in Random Arenas" builds start coming. Delete. --Aspectacle 15:14, 12 February 2007 (PST)

I've changed it a little to indicate it was once popular. It would be interesting to have a category with ranger spike, spirit spam, ether renewal smite and so on in. &mdash; Skuld 15:22, 12 February 2007 (PST)
 * The historical tag looks good to me. --Dirigible 15:41, 12 February 2007 (PST)

First of all, star burster was never particularly a good build. I won a bunch of games in RA running around with a Me/E using power return, grasping earth, iron mist, ward against foes, glyph of lesser energy, earth attunement, mantra of recovery, rez sig. While some other guild wars wikis would probably tout that as the pinnacle of PvP build design, we all know the truth. So at best this should be document as a fotm/historic build. Furthermore the infrastructure for posting builds doesn't even exist yet. The page basically lists a few skill and says "teleport to target, hit 1, 2, 3." As a wiki, everyone should probably strive for a slightly higher bar than this. I don't think this is the time for a page like this to exist (at least until the builds/guides policy gets hammered out.) Remember PvE monsters don't pose a challenge. Most RA and AB players are sadly worse than the PvE monsters. -Warskull 16:01, 12 February 2007 (PST)

Rewrite
Not that I was a big fan of starburst (there might be some errors in the rewrite), but this is meant as an example of how I feel guides and builds should look like in the wiki (check this article and the example page). --Xeeron 17:09, 12 February 2007 (PST)


 * This also inspired my semi-rant on the build policy page, for all those who are interested why I want this article to look very different. --Xeeron 17:21, 12 February 2007 (PST)


 * Agree, 90%. But there is still the question of if this page will invite a thousand and one variations on Starburster builds. What's to stop people from using the "subpage loophole" to introduce their own pet builds? --Drekmonger 17:14, 12 February 2007 (PST)


 * If they can find a reasonable connection to the guide, I dont care (noone will look at them, they dont hurt anyone). If it is clearly not an example of a starburster, it gets deleted. --Xeeron 17:21, 12 February 2007 (PST)

I would just really hate to see someone look at an informing wiki, and find a starburster and think it's a good build, and run it. Everything works in AB, RA, PvE, we should restrict ourselves to exemplary builds. This is not one of them. This is a fun build, I'll give you that, but it's just trashy, it kills idiots, but anything kills idiots.... touch of agony and dark aura kills idiots, EoE bombs kills idiots, so should it be posted? --Narcism 20:17, 12 February 2007 (PST)

Delete
Although a good example of a pvp build guide. For most of the reasons stated in the above discussion. This is a subpar build that should not be displayed to the public. If we start letting in guides for the Starburster, who's going to delete or moderate the Signet of Judgementer or the Teaser, or the Paniccer, or the Headbutter? Let's not get our pants full, and let's stick with the ultra popular tried and true builds for now. --Narcism 21:17, 12 February 2007 (PST)


 * Subpar articles should be improved, not summarily deleted. I think there is room for a solid Starburster guide given how ridiculously popular that build was (and still is to an extent). See the discussion by Xeeron above. S 21:28, 12 February 2007 (PST)


 * The article isn't subpar, please don't think that. I'm saying the build is subpar. And as long as the build has Starburst, it will be subpar. Don't confuse this this with the guide being subpar, or me saying this build isn't popular. Mending is popular, but subpar, glad's defense is popular but subpar, and hundred blades is popular but subpar. starburst is in the same category as the previous 3 skills i mentionned. If this article isn't deleted, it should be put it in it's own AB PvP Build Guides, so it can mingle with all the other subpar AB/RA/PvE builds. http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Build:Main_Page I liked that because I could go into the HA and GvG sections without having to look at http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Build:E/N_Shattering_Vapor and http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Build:R/W_Lightning_Hammer


 * This article is currently being held up as an example of the new builds policy. You have to negotiate with Xeeron if you want to delete it. I, for one, think that builds that are this popular need at least a decent attempt at a guide. I can't remember the last time I saw Mending in a (non-farming) build, so the comparison is a bit silly. Be careful to separate opinion from documentation: I never saw the attraction of touch rangers, but I was the one who started the R/N Touch Ranger page on guildwiki (which, for the longest time, was the most viewed build page and was the basis of the build formatting guideline). I never saw the point of running, but I wrote the Bold Forge Runner build on guildwiki. I think b/p is possibly the most brainless way to play a ranger, yet I wrote the b/p tomb build on guildwiki. Documenting the metagame is important, regardless of what one thinks about the popular builds. S 21:48, 12 February 2007 (PST)


 * Keep it until build policy is finalized. I don't agree on deleting this article until then, or a better article on nuking elementalists in general is created.


 * In my ideal world, this starburster article would be a redirect to "nukers" (or whatever we'd call that article), with point blank eles described in that article, with a possible example in the form of a starburster.--Drekmonger 21:57, 12 February 2007 (PST)


 * Great idea Drekmonger. --Narcism 21:59, 12 February 2007 (PST)


 * Narcism, please note what I am trying to do with this page. I do not try to make the reader a better playing by showing him a great build. I am documenting a widespread build, showing the way it works and its advantages and disadvantages. Whether the build is good or bad is irrelevant for documenting it: If enough people run it such that others will want to know about it, there needs to be a page about it here. Let me repeat that in bold, because that pretty much sums up my complete attitude towards builds: We should NOT rate builds, we should document them. From that follows that any delete tag with the reason "bad build" is missplaced. --Xeeron 02:43, 13 February 2007 (PST)

BTW, story time
Sometime after Factions release but well before Nightfall, I remember running with a guild group who were decent GvGers but rarely entered halls. In the underworld, I see a crapload of enemy E/As. I say, "They are probably starburst." I assumed this tidbit alone would be nuff.

We approached, the caller called out a target for our lame spike build (SB/RI if you must know :P :P), and watching my teammates positions I said over vent, "wtf. don't bunch up.  scatter." I scattered, no one else did. Five seconds later, I was the only person left alive on that team. And feeling pretty stupid for being on that team.

Just saying, even an ineffective build (such as Touch Ranger or Starburster) can be serious deadly if the simple counter is unknown to a particular team.

"At least Drekmonger considers them threat enough to kite them!" said Dragon Legacy, the sarcasm dripping.

Actually, Drekmonger consider them a joke because I do kite them. I imagine someone else might be standing bunched up next to his monks saying over vent, "It's okay, starbursters are an ineffective build. They aren't even on the official guild wars wiki!"

The build is common enough to be mentioned somewhere, as in the counter (as brain dead simple as it is). As a redirect to an article about AoE nukers in general maybe -- but somewhere.

Autodeleting because ITS A BUILD OMGOMGOMG, is not productive. Improve the article, move the article contents to where it can be useful. Delete only if it describes a concept that is not likely to be seen by the average PvP player.

In this case, it is a concept that is likely to be seen and so should be preserved....somewhere.--Drekmonger 04:07, 13 February 2007 (PST)