Template talk:NPC infobox

Profession categories
Could we split these categories by campaign? -- Gordon Ecker 07:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Fleshiness and Lightbringer vulnerability
Does anyone object to adding these parameters? {{ #if:{{{fleshy|}}} | ! style="background-color:#E88;" | Fleshy: }} They will allow fleshiness and Lightbringer skill susceptibility to be denoted in the infobox. The reason for the Lightbringer parameter is that there are a number of demons in Nightfall which are not affected by Lightbringer skills, and a number of non-demons in Nightfall which are affected by them. -- Gordon Ecker 05:48, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
 * - valign="top"
 * {{{fleshy}})
 * The only thing I'm objecting to is the length of "Affected by Lightbringer skills". I think it might screw up the overall look of the infobox. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 02:56, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I think these are a good idea. Also, to address aberrant's concerns, how about "Lightbringer weak: Yes" or something? LordBiro 15:53, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I dunno. I don't have any suggestions (which is why I didn't suggest any :P). Would "Lightbringer: Yes" be a little too vague? I suppose.... -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 01:52, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * How about just add an "Affiliation" field which becomes "Affiliation: servant of Abaddon" if and only if it is susceptible to Lightbringer? And explain that as the criteria in the Lightbringer skills/title articles. That's the direction that both the current species' proposals head towards. If that's too long, maybe just "Affiliation: Abaddon" (which also makes it simpler to include Abaddon himself)? --Rezyk 02:02, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I do quite like that idea, Rezyk, provided the parameter is still lightbringer = yes (or affected-by-lightbringer = true or something). I think using "affiliation = servant of Abaddon" might mean something different. LordBiro 07:14, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * What about "Lightbringer vulneribility" or "Lightbringer susceptibility"? Or putting all special properties in one cell like this?
 * |- valign="top"

! style="background-color:#E88;" | Other properties / special properties / other special properties:
 * -- Gordon Ecker 03:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That certainly looks interesting. Might mean we can do away with a lot of notes... and might make the creature page shorter than the infobox... hmmm... is that list of properties more or less complete? But GWEN might add more. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 17:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I retract my proposal to incorporate lightbringer vurneribility into the infobox, as Lightbringer vulneribility is based solely on on army. -- Gordon Ecker 03:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I retract my proposal to incorporate lightbringer vurneribility into the infobox, as Lightbringer vulneribility is based solely on on army. -- Gordon Ecker 03:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Add army, family and world, deprecate species and campaign
Based on what's been learned on talk:species, I think it would be appropriate to phase out the species and campaign parameters and phase in the army, family and world parameters since they are the official terms. I believe that army should default to none, family should default to unknown and world should default to core. -- Gordon Ecker 03:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't agree that those should be considered official terms (unless ArenaNet explicitly says they should be). My interpretation is that they are just terms that ArenaNet uses internally for design and development. If anything, "type" is more official/appropriate than "family" as it's a term used in the interface to players. --Rezyk 03:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure about family, but army is definitely official, the Stone Summit and the undead are specifically referred to as armies on the official website. -- Gordon Ecker 03:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Naw.-- §  Eloc   §  03:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think we should wait until we get more information on creature types before we make any changes. -- Gordon Ecker 04:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Although we already know that a creature may have many features (they can be undead, elementa and construct at the same time, like Carven Effigies) we also know that only one of those is the 'dominant' and the used with Edge of extincttion, like 'Elemental' with Carven Effigies. Althought nothing else is needed, 'aligment' or 'affiliation' could be stated, like 'Kourna army' with kournan soldiers or 'Awakened army' with Carven Effigies. MithranArkanere 20:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Undead isn't a species, it's an army which encompasses all members of the mummy, skeleton and zombie species, as well as some members of other species. -- Gordon Ecker 23:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Eh... no. The awakened are an army. The orrian undead are an army. 'Undead' is a type a creature, a trait, a species.
 * Mummy are a 'subtype' of undead, like ghosts, ghouls and skeletons.
 * Please read User_talk:Emily_Diehl/Official_information_archive. No matter what wiki editors 'decide' undead is treated as a 'trait' ingame, and all affiliations, species and traits are trated the same. So we have to use the edge of extinction to check the 'dominant' trait. There is no other way to check the dominant, since bounties and weapon modifiers are somehow arbitrary in that and they may affect lesser traits, like undead in Carven Effigies. MithranArkanere 00:27, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Now that I come to think, we could change the species and afilitaion into a 'trait' list. For example:
 * Zombie dragon: Undead, Zombie, Dragon.
 * Carven Effigy: Elemental, Undead, Awakened, Construct.
 * Of course, a trait won't be added unless it is tested in some way, like using a weapon mod, bounties and, of course, the Edge of Extinction.
 * That would fit much more what dearest Miss Emily Diehl said. MithranArkanere 00:38, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No, family / species, affiliation and trait are not treated the same, a couple days ago Andrew McLeod gave a detailed explanation on Talk:Species, and earlier this week he listed the four undead subtypes as ghosts, mummies, skeletons and zombies on User talk:Linsey Murdock/Species. EoE and disease always use family / species. There's also the world trait, which flags creatures by campaign. It's currently not known if creatures have multiple army, family or world slots, however there are no confirmed examples of creatures with more than one army, family or world. -- Gordon Ecker 00:48, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Aaaaw.... that's more clear... so 'family' is our 'species', group is our 'affiliation' and 'world' is our 'campaign'. We don't need to change the names, we just need to add 'affiliation'. But I'm still right. The Awakened and are an army, not a species, and 'mummy' is something invented by us, their family/species is just 'undead'.
 * When it comes to creatures that are 'ungrouped', we just put a generic name for them as species. That should do just fine. MithranArkanere 01:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * We can still use Edge of Extintion and Disease to check the family/species and we can still use the drops to check the group/affilitation, like Stone Summit Badges for Ice Golems. MithranArkanere 01:20, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually undead is an affiliation / army, which is why weapons of deathbane affect both awakened and Carven Effigies even though effigies only EoE elementals, and why skeletons and zombies won't EoE eachother. I'm okay with keeping affiliation, campaign and species if it turns out that army, world and family are unofficial nicknames, and if army, world and family are official, the switch can easily be handled by bots at some point in the future. Mummy appears to be the internal term for the species / family that the Awakened belong to. -- Gordon Ecker 01:27, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the internal name for them is probably just zombie. (I'm not saying we should use that, though.) --Rezyk 22:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Aw... so that dialogue of palawa Joko: "No, No, No! Mummified flesh on the left! Dried bones on the right! No, your other right! You worthless bits of animated anatomy!" was more that just babling... it makes much more sense. All are Undead Army, and army formaed by many types of creature: Skeletons, Mummies and even elementals... Ok. There are some random things due to how the traits and species work, but I think we finally have a real basis of the system. MithranArkanere 02:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think the word "army" is a very good word to use; it refers to a very specific organisation (and this is where the confusion above has arisen). I think "allegiance" is a much better word to use in this instance. LordBiro 08:13, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Affiliation perhaps? Allegiance implies something specific to me as well as army. --NieA7 10:38, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. We already have corresponding terms to those that Andrew explained. Is it really necessary to follow his terms? We don't even know if he used those terms because he was just trying to illustrate things to the wiki community or if they are really used by Anet internally. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 13:57, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * We have a term for 'army', actually: Faction. Kurzick and Luxon are counted as 'armies', but they are called 'factions'. No doubt about that. Factions would be, for example, Undead, Charr, Am Fah, White Mantle, Echoval Forest, Animals,
 * We can recognize some factions because they attack others, like onis attacking Jade Sea creatures, mantises attacking Echival forest creatures, Mursaat attacking stone summit... hm... they should give different colors to them ingame so we could check them better (and see colors in our wells and wards) MithranArkanere 02:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd rather not use faction, the faction article is already a disambig. -- Gordon Ecker 02:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Faction is way overused already. I'd stick with affiliation. I would also choose army over faction. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 04:20, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

This is just a general note to say that I support the move towards using the NPC information traits (world, army and family). It would be nice if these terms could be confirmed as official before implementation, otherwise I'm ambivalent as to what terms are used to refer these classifications so long as the terms are consistent, the information is present and reasonably accurate. Note that world does not necessarily equate to campaigns that a creature appears in, as mentioned here: User talk:Andrew McLeod/Species. Also, should this then become a GWW project (e.g. Guild Wars Wiki:Projects/NPC classification), preferrably with input by Andrew McLeod. --Indecision 09:31, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If we are doing this change, how do we make it easy for the regular contributor to put creatures into the right categories? Is the categorization intuitive enough? Campaign is easy, species is somewhat harder but still doable for most contributors, I'd say. If this way of categorizing will mean only the "elite" (no negative meaning there) people who read the right talk pages can make correct categorizations, I'm opposed to this change. - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]] 10:26, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd say that army is generally a pretty intuitive addition, however there would probably need to be some modification to Guild Wars Wiki talk:Formatting/NPCs to help casual editors. As far as the terms used goes, I'm not fussed either ways, so I'd be happy to keep them the same (i.e. campaign and species) if that's felt to be the best option. I suggested the project more to form an oversight section to help editors know which articles belong to which classifications. The vision I have is more to be able to clean up categories such as Category:Species so that they correctly resolve into armies and species etc... As I find the general pages such as Demon or Undead to be quite helpful in determining the correct species/army of an NPC.  I agree that it is important to help casual editors in their classification, but I think its still important to contain accurate information on the NPC pages, even if the information itself is somewhat unintuitive. --Indecision 11:12, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it's the other way around. If we owe a duty of care to anyone it's the users of this site, not the editors. We're supposed to be a highly accurate reference for Guild Wars, and if nothing else the users vastly outnumber the editors. With that in mind I would strongly favour documenting the exact, technical family tree of the creatures - as soon as we start obfuscating it for the benefit of editors then we're doing our users a disservice. It's clear that the technical definitions supplied by ANet have direct, in-game effects, such as vulnerabilities, resistances, aggressiveness (who will attack what on contact) etc. Better we document all that and get it right than we try and munge the terminology so it's easy for people "not in the know" to guess at. Anybody can guess, that's why it's not very helpful. --NieA7 11:22, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think I didn't explain my point very well and sounded a bit more harsh than intended. My main point is, the system should not be overly complicated for someone who has been in contact with wiki before and should be as intuitive as the old system for totally new users (wiki users). The only benefit of keeping the old system would be that most old wiki users know it already. I'm all for a more intuitive and game based system, as long as I don't have to read up on 5 pages before I can add one NPC to the wiki ;) - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]] 13:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Are you worried about the auto-categories or the manual categories? If we can get to auto-categories to work, this shouldn't be an issue. For manual issues, I would say that it doesn't really matter if you don't get the category right upon creation, as long as it's actually linked from somewhere, sooner or later someone who knows about the correct categories will stumble along and fix it. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 14:28, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I meant more, how do I determine what army, family and world this NPC belongs to, when I'm creating an NPC article. If I can't fill the parameter with the right thing, auto-categorization doesn't help alot. And I think our goal should be a system where most people can get most things right (by reading an article or two), not where a small group of individuals have to go through each article to correct/fill in everything. I'm just worried this new system gets overly complicated/unintuitive. "This is a charr, and he is in Ascalon" is quite easy for someone to get, since it's very visible (Name, and you mostly know where you are)... I don't know, maybe I'm just complicating stuff in my head. - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]] 14:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Eh? Isn't that how it is with the current species already? How do I know what species an Enchanted Hammer is? I don't. I just guess and hope someone else comes along who knows what it is. Or are you actually saying we should retain the terms? Personally, I'd prefer "species, organization, and campaign" than "army, family, and world". The former is more intuitive. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 14:46, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I can see what Anja is getting at - the reason nobody had a clue as to what system ANet was using before we got to talk to them directly is precisely because it's non-obvious. However, in this case I think that's kinda of like a mirror complaining about reflecting ugly people - it's not the mirrors job to change anything, it's just gotta show what's there. If that means we end up with vast numbers of uncategorised NPCs until we can get official word on them then that's a price I'd be prepared to pay, but others may feel differently. Perhaps we could run a dual-categorisation system (obvious vs technical) until such time as most NPCs have a correct technical category? --NieA7 14:56, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * There's a table in the army article, and I've added a table to the family article. -- Gordon Ecker 01:09, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Wiki nomenclatura
As per the above debate we should try to come to an agreement for what to call these things on the wiki. I'll list the suggestions I've seen so far. Feel free to add. Backsword

family

 * Species
 * Family
 * Kind
 * Type
 * Race

army

 * Army
 * Affiliation
 * Allegiance
 * Faction

world

 * Campaign
 * Chapter
 * Continent
 * World

Opinion
We could just add votes somewhere, after enough people vote, the chosen ones would be used.
 * Family: For this one, either Family and Species are good for me, I like Species more, though.
 * Army: I like army for this one. It's shorter and easier to remember, and it's already used with Undead Army, Charr Army or Shadow Army.
 * World: This one could be confusing for new users, since there is one one world (Tyria), so either Campaign, Chapter or something like that woul be better. Remember that pre-Searing has a different 'world' that the rest of Prophecies, so maybe Chapter would be better, since both chapters are part of the same Campaign.

MithranArkanere 17:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Species: Has the right immediate connotation but carries a meaning which doesn't always apply to the final groups, which causes problems
 * Family: Sounds strange at first. Used internally by ArenaNet, but I think that words used externally in the interface should have a natural precedence over this.
 * Kind: Used in the interface on disease. Too informal.
 * Type: Used in the interface on Edge of Extinction. A bit ambiguous. Main article would be "Creature type", I guess.
 * Race: Strictly worse than species.
 * Army: Used internally by ArenaNet, but often wrong connotation. "Easier to remember" is really only relevant to editors and not viewers.
 * Affiliation: seems meaningful, yet general enough to never be wrong
 * Allegiance: clashes with stuff like allegiance rank
 * Campaign: Seems okay to me. Do we even have to split pre-Searing from post-Searing, just because it is done internally?
 * Chapter: no better than campaign, and campaign is the preferred term in other systems
 * Continent: also no better than campaign
 * World: what MithranArkanere said
 * My overall preferences at this time:
 * Type > Family > Kind > Species > Race
 * Affiliation > Army > Allegiance
 * Campaign > Chapter > Continent > World
 * --Rezyk 18:37, 28 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I share most of Rezyk's opinions, except that I'd still prefer Species over Type, although I won't be against calling it "Creature type". Continent is strictly worse than Campaign and Chapter because a few regions and locations just can't be placed on a Continent. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 15:37, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd go for Species, Affiliation and Campaign. Can you give some examples of problems with using "Species" Rezyk? --NieA7 14:15, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "Species" is problematic because it's used to refer to the Charr and Titans, which are all the same type of thing from a lore perspective, but the Charr are divided between the Charr family and the null family with at least one army, while the Titans are divided into at least three armies, with some or all Titans in the null family. It's also used to refer to various subtypes of demons which overlap their own army and the Domain of Anguish army, such as Margonites and torment creatures. I think that species would work better as a term used exclusively for intuitive, lore-based classification. -- Gordon Ecker 22:10, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd be happy with Rezyk's preferences of Type, Affiliation and Campaign. However, I'd be concerned about having a dual classification system, with both species (lore based) and type (technical based), as I feel this would be confusing for both viewers and editors, without necessarily adding much to the individual NPC articles. --Indecision 00:44, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * IMO type is far too vague and generic. It could refer to army, family or mob name (Charr Flamecaller, Naga Ritualist, Rampaging Ntouka etc.). -- Gordon Ecker 01:10, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Does a Charr (which?) with null family show up together with other Charr of the Charr family? Same with the demons. Do the non-nulls and the nulls ever appear in the same location together? -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 05:14, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Prophecies Charr are encountered along with Eye of the North Charr during Charr Invaders. There aren't any null family demons, but Margonites and torment creatures and every other monster in the Domain of Anguish belongs to the DoA army, while Margonites and torment creatures outside of the Domain of Anguish have separate armies. As for Titans, I'm not sure if Nightfall Titans have a family, but they definitely have an army, as Lightbringer skills were stated to be army-based, and both Prophecies and Nightfall Titans are encountered in the Gate of Madness mission. -- Gordon Ecker 05:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This whole "family" business is so messy - we're just gonna confuse casual readers and cause people to unknowingly "fix" the family value when they see a null Charr. It's a case of an article saying "Species: Charr" versus "Family: Charr, Null". -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 05:47, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * We can deal with that by manually categorizing them all as Charr, and including something like in counterintuitive family and army entries and including an explanation in the main Charr article. -- Gordon Ecker 06:46, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * In this case, the missing trait is an anomality and can be documented as such. Backsword 12:29, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Both the common and scientific meanings of "species" in the real world clash with some of the groups. "Animals", "plants", and "insects" are not species, but larger groups containing many species. A crab is simply not the same species as a lion, even in terms of Guild Wars lore. To say that they are in fact the same species requires us to essentially say that instead of the normal meaning of species, we're going to redefine it to mean this other thing which is usually the same or similar, but not always.
 * Not that it's illegal or insane to do that; most people will get the idea...but what's the need for it? It creates more room for people to get confused between their expected definition of species and our re-definition...why add that complication? Don't you guys get a sense that ArenaNet purposely avoided using the natural label of "species" to avoid being inaccurate about it? Why take that step for them instead of staying consistent with a word that is already being given to players in-game?
 * Maybe I just don't see what is so bad about "type"/"creature type". I'm imagining that things would be labeled "Creature type: Minotaur" or "Type: Animal" and (to me) it doesn't seem too vague or hard to understand for new players. --Rezyk 07:16, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Right now, most of the family / army / "species" articles use a type column for mob names, what should we rename the type column to? -- Gordon Ecker 07:37, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "Name". --Rezyk 07:42, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I can't believe I didn't think of that. Anyway, I've added a proposal to add a line to the general formatting guideline stating that official terms are preferred. -- Gordon Ecker 01:51, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, I just made a similar argument against not re-defining something, so I won't argue for species any more. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 08:08, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "Type" just seems a bit meh to me, but with the examples I can see that species would cause some confusion (though I really doubt that ANet deliberately avoided "species" as a label considering they used "army" as another). Bearing in mind the problems with Charr, Margonites, Titans etc, I think we may need a fourth "obvious" category (all Charr are lore Charr, all Titans are lore Titans and so on) in addition to the three technical ones. Perhaps we could use a cunning infobox (warning: poor ASCII art ahead):

|| | Name:         Charr Flame Wielder         | | Species:      Charr                       | | Profession(s): Elementalist               | | Level(s):     8 (23)                      | | Technical:    / / | ||
 * with Species (lore classification) and Technical leading to appropriate definition pages (i.e. what the three names that follow mean in game mechanic terms). That way we avoid having to name the technical descriptions on every creature page (only on Technical), hopefully saving us from well meaning edits. --NieA7 13:00, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * In that case, I'd use terms like 'Internal', 'Engine' or 'Mechanic' instead of 'Technical'. But since the term we currently use instead of Species is almost always either army or family, I still thnk we should replace that 'Species', instead of adding more. MithranArkanere 14:58, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "Internal" would be OK. I think there's still value in the old-style species: it's documenting the lore of the game rather than the mechanics of the game, both have a place here. It's unfortunate but it looks like the two can't be combined - I think that means we've got to have the separate, rather than dropping one. --NieA7 16:22, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I wonder if there's a similar clash between our perceived Affiliation versus Anet's official army... but regardless, since the infobox is all about the stats/attributes/properties of a creature, might as well drop the lore-based species (since some are guesswork anyway) and keep only the game mechanics. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 06:04, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I would say that lore stuff was part of the properties of a creature, so would be at home on the template. Besides, I don't recall a guidelines anywhere saying that the NPC infobox had to be limited to mechanics. Doesn't really matter, but personally I'd rather display more info than less. --NieA7 11:29, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * My suggestion was more for consistency and clarity rather than following any guidelines. More is of course better than less, I'm not saying otherwise, but when it isn't all that useful (and might be confusing when we have 2 similar entries), I'm willing to consider some alternative, like putting it into a description (and all our creature descriptions are woefully short and lacking anyway. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 15:02, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

(reset indent) I'd generally favor leaving "extra" species info to the description, at least to start off with. Or have it as an optional infobox row just for when it doesn't match the type/family (and is clear enough). |--| | Name:       Reef Lurker | | Type:       Animal      | | Affiliation: None       | | Campaign:   Factions    | | Species:    Crab        | | ...                     | |--|

|---| | Name:       Orshad Chieftain | | Type:       Centaur          | | Affiliation: Losaru          | | Campaign:   Prophecies       | | ...                          | |---| --Rezyk 19:12, 4 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I have to say I like that example Rezyk, seems to be quite clear. Can anyone think of an example where this method would result in confusion? Only thing I can think of is multi-campaign creatures who belong to a null family in one campaign and have their own family in another. How should we resolve this? --Indecision 00:29, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Allegiance > Affiliation imo, but I'm not against affiliation if it comes down to that.  Calor  - talk 00:33, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

|---| | Name:       Charr Invader    | | Type:       None             | | Affiliation: None            | | Campaign:   Eye of the North | | Species:    Charr            | | ...                          | |---|
 * Something like this for null family? Allegiance is not so good a choice because of Allegiance rank. And personally, allegiance gives a stronger sense of loyalty than affiliation, and we have quite a few NPCs on which that term won't fit well. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 07:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Every monster has an army. IMO both the family and army parameters should default to unknown if they are unspecified. -- Gordon Ecker 09:11, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yup, instead of 'None' the default parameter should be 'Default', since if a monster is not part of a fixed army, they will be part of the Default army of the area. MithranArkanere 14:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Gordon was saying to default to "Unknown", not default to "Default". There doesn't appear to be such a thing as area default; default is apparently not having an army at all. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 02:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I added the "affiliation" parameter. Any objections to adding "type" and making "species" optional? --Rezyk 01:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Are we agreed to use type instead of family? -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 01:38, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer to use family, since it seems to be the preferred official term, but kind and type also have official status. I dislike using affiliation, since it's completely unofficial and we have an officcial term, but I'd prefer it if the official vs. unofficial terms issue was discussed on the general formatting talk page. I don't see any point in stalling things, since a bot can deal with any future parameter renamings. -- Gordon Ecker 03:21, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Just a question with regard to affiliation. As the Shadow Army have just been allocated as Nightmares, I assumed that we would use affiliation for grouping them (lore-wise) into an army (see Shadow Lord).  However, technically, this isn't the case, as they belong to the generic Fissure of Woe army and not their own particular army.  I'm just wondering what we are going to do in cases such as this, where NPCs have a lore-based grouping that is not covered by the lore-based species trait, or the technical traits. --Indecision 01:13, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * In this particular case, I've been monitorizing info about this. All Shadow Army members (that is, all menzies servants) are of the same family as the Nightmares (Call them, Nightmares, Shades, Shadows or Whatever), BUT, they are NOT part of a single army. Shadows in the Fissure are part of one army, shadows in Elona and the Torment are part of another, and finally, shadows in the Anguish are part of a third army. So, they all share family, but not army, although in the 'lore' they are all the same. Annoying, eh? In those case, there's only one thing we can do: Use the Description and Notes sections. We can denote in each army article that they are the same for the Lore of Guild Wars, and add another page for the complete list. Like the current 'Shadow Army' page. MithranArkanere 01:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I suggest three type-based supercategories: army, family and some sort of "miscellaneous" category covering groups like Charr, Margonites and the Shadow Army which span multiple armies or families. -- Gordon Ecker 06:40, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "Do we even have to split pre-Searing from post-Searing, just because it is done internally?". I'd say that if something is worth documenting, it's worth documenting correctly. In this case, it also seems relevant to other things, such as presearing Tyria having a different map. Backsword 11:36, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

My own preferences for 'family' is either Kind or Type. They're official, and the other are biological terms with clear defenitions that don't match. Tho' type is problematic, as Gordon has mentioned, due to being in use already, for different things. The use of the word type instead of name is quite frequent on forums, and for other uses too. There is also several other 'type's in the game, including the offical term "Skill Type". Thus I prefer Kind, even if it is a 'least bad' choice.

I don't find Allegiance to be as problematic as others, since Luxon and Kurzick are valid values. Army is more problematic, as most things just aren't in what we'd call an army in real life. However, Affiliation has none of these problems, so that'd be my preference.

Unlike most here I think Campaign is the worst choice. This because I value consistancy. Campaign appears in most of our infoboxs, used for document what Campaign they're tied to, based on this being a technical part of how a skill is implemented. But since we're documenting something different here, use of the same term can only cause confusion. Especially since they are simillar things. World is problematic for the reasons mentioned by others. Chapter is just an old term for Campaign, and I'd rather not reintroduce it. Continent is my prefered name; it matches values like Elona best. Admittedly, this is a problem for creatures in The Mists, but I doubt there is a perfect solution on that. Backsword

There are only to thing I veto:
 * World. In lore, there is only two known 'worlds': Tyria and the Rift. So we should not use world, since it would be confusing.
 * Campaigns. There are four 'campaigns': Prophecies, Factions, Nightfall and Eye of the North. But (there's always a but) pre-Seaing counts internally as a separate 'World', so we can't use 'Prophecies' for both, but both are part of Prophecies campaign. Even using of using 'Prophecies (pre-Searing)' to denote that world, it still is out of the 'Campaign' separation. On top of that, Eye of the North is another 'chapter', but not another campaign, but an expansion. MithranArkanere 13:01, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah! There's another one too. 'Continent' So far, there are only two know 'continents' Tyria and Cantha. Elona is part of Tyria, and even part of Elona (Crystal desert) is in the Prophecies map. I wish there were better options, but it seems that between those listed, only chapter fits the thing. MithranArkanere 13:05, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, Elona is considered a seperate continent in lore as it used to be seperated from Tyria be the Crystal Sea. Backsword 13:30, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * As far as I can tell, Tyria is both the name both of the 'world' (the globe) and the 'main' continent. It would be like 'Eurasia'. At least is what I've learned from reading in Anet staff user pages and answers. Anyways, even if Elona were considered a different continent, 'continent' won't do because of pre-Searing and Eye of the North. We go back to the same. pre-Searing, Prophecies map and Eye of the North map are all part of the same continent, yet pre-Searing and Prophecies are part of the same campaign, yet all three of themhave different 'internal worlds'. MithranArkanere 18:35, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Presearing is something in it's favour; We already have a region differated on time. (Ascalon). Should thus be easy to understand. The north, we'll, I don't know how that is handled internally. Should ask. Backsword 10:25, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * In addition to lumping together Prophecies and Eye of the North, continent would also split up Nightfall. -- Gordon Ecker 04:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * How so? Backsword 10:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The Realm of Torment is not part the same continent as the rest of Elona. - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]] 12:28, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh boy, this is getting more and more icky. Since we rejected using "Species", it would seem "Continent" is an easy rejection. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 14:45, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * No that's not it. Andrw McLeod has already pointed out that it is, from the game perspective. That's why I mentioned The Mists above. Backsword 12:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * McLeod has already stated that when it comes to 'world':
 * pre-Searing has its own world.
 * Prophecies Tyria and the two realms of the gods share another.
 * Cantha and the elite areas have another world.
 * Elona, the Torment and the anguis have another.
 * I don't know about Eye of the North, but if all Eye of the North areas are another world, that makes 5 worlds. It's armies what are different. The nightmares in Shiverpeaks and the Shadows of the realm of the gods have different armies, but the same 'world' and family (Nightmare, shadow, shade, whatever you call it). You can just check his page for that. MithranArkanere 15:24, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * There is also a PvP world for the Battle Isles and HA. Backsword 15:34, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Compare  and   with, for example,  ,   or   Backsword 15:34, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Continent is a misleading term because of Nightfall. Anyway, I think we should just use campaign in the infobox, and possibly a world parameter which is only used when world differs from campaign, which would add "(Pre-Searing world)" or "(Prophecies world)" in the campaign column. -- Gordon Ecker 02:10, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Opinion overview
Made a table to get an overview of peoples opinions. Consider it research. Backsword 12:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC) Order is most favoured to least favoured.


 * General idea so far seems:
 * Family - Species = Family &rarr; Type &rarr; Kind = Race
 * World - Campaign = Chapter &rarr; World &rarr; Continent
 * Army - Affiliation &rarr; Army &rarr; Alliegance


 * Votes go against everything wikis are for, but this is a good poll to see the results, not to make decisions solely based upon. So far, it seem species, campaign, and affiliation are most popular, but campaign could easily change to chapter with the release of GW2 possibly in installments instead of campaigns, and the fact that GW:EN is not a campaign.  Calor  - talk 05:48, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, I didn't factor in the order of how people favored terms, because some people included all, some didn't, and that would've been long and ugly. But the results I put in above are inaccurate due to not factoring in the order.  Calor  - talk 23:04, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Campaign 5
We need a campaign 5. As of right now, it only goes up to 4.-- §  Eloc   §  01:38, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * what? -- Lemming [[Image:User Lemming64 sigicon.png]] 01:40, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Lol, did you miss the announcements for Guild Wars 2? :) There won't be a campaign 5 anytime soon because they don't have further plans for GW1 until GW2 is released. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 06:42, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No, like 5 for Core, Prophecies, Factions, Nightfall and Eye of the North...which adds up to 5.-- §  Eloc   §  20:27, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ehm, "core" isn't a campaign Eloc. It's what is the core of GW, i.e. stuff that repeats throughout the 3 campaigns and the expansion. -- [[Image:User Corrran sig.png|CoRrRan]] (CoRrRan / talk) 20:29, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes indeed, you use Core if all 4 apply, so really you only need 3 campaign slots so we have one extra at the moment if anything. -- Lemming [[Image:User Lemming64 sigicon.png]] 20:39, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * XD, ok fine.-- §  Eloc   §  20:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Profession categories
Profession categories like Category:Warriors are too large and unwieldy. A good way to cut them down is to group them by campaign. I tried to change it (big mistake! :P) but forgot about the way multiple campaigns get specified. Anyone has a good idea on how to elegantly pass all the campaign names to ? Or a better alternative to that helper template? -- ab.er. rant  17:32, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Test in sandbox plzkthx, job queue of several thousand = dead wiki. - B e X  [[Image:User BeXoR sig.gif|iawtc]] 17:32, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) I just noticed that Gordon asked a similar question a couple of months ago... >.< -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 17:33, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ask one of the bots to do it here to sort it by campaign.-- §  Eloc   §  19:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Map
Would it be possible that an additional parameter for additional images could be added to this template? Take a look at this for example, there is a small box underneath the NPC image, but it's labelled as Map(s) and there is no current way of changing this currently :).--Gummy Joe 18:40, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't that image be at Weakness already? I'd say just link to that in his description. - B e X  [[Image:User BeXoR sig.gif|iawtc]] 00:09, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I would say get rid of that image altogether. What's needed is the dialogue. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 01:14, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Just add a to the infobox, similar to Template:Location infobox.-- §   Eloc   §  16:12, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Affiliation
I've noticed that the affiliation doesn't autolink like the other parameters, I think it should but I'm afraid to try and update such a widely used template myself. Do I just need to add double brackets around the ? - HeWhoIsPale 13:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It's sort of my fault. We never really reached a conclusion in the above discussion. I've been meaning to revive this, so we can implement this properly. I think it's interesting data, which can be useful in formating too. Backsword 13:56, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * With Affiliation we could finally link all the undead. Currently there are no notes in most creatures that are part of the Undead army. With this, we could set either the know army of 'Unknow' for them. It's something needed, specially for the Undead. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 16:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * A parameter that's not automatically wikilinking is a lot more flexible though, but I don't know if it's possible for a creature to have several affiliations? If they can, that causes trouble with automatic wikilinking. - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]] 16:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It's not possible. But sometimes the same infoox is used for several creatures that shares a name, in which case it could (obviously) be true. That's the same for everything else tho' Backsword 16:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't the affiliation be hidden if there's no value? -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png| ]] 09:17, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't actually know of any cases of that. For now, it's mostly just that we haven't done them yet. Once we're fairly complete, perhaps it would be better. Don't have any strong feelings on that. Backsword 09:22, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * If two creatures have the same name but different affiliation, they are different creatures, so there is no problem in linking them. I do know that hostile behavior is set in each area, but affiliation is set for each creature: Unique ID, family, affiliatin and world. Two creatures are the same only when all those are the same. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 17:15, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

My main concern is when we're going to tackle it. Leaving it as "Unspecified" is just not a good idea. Firstly, do we know for sure that all NPCs have an affiliation? Otherwise, I think it best that we hide it first. -- ab.er. rant  02:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)


 * It's a trait all creatures have. It may be set to Null for some, but I know of no such cases. I designed it as this as this is what we have always done with species, I only split it into type and affiliation. Buy I guess it's originally so to encourage 'normal' editors to provide the data.


 * As a comprimise, we could base displaying it on whether it has been updated, using the species parameter as our metric for this. Thus these wouldn't be displayed when the value is unknown or Null, but would if people simply haven't gotten around to update it. Backsword 13:10, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Replacement NPC infobox
Basic proposition:
 * ''Replace this with this.

What this does is,
 * 1) Splits species into two parts, affiliation and type.
 * 2) Introduces significant automatic categorisation.
 * 3) Some minor technical improvements.

Some examples of how this would look, onviously only relevant to 1 and 3, can be seen here.

Some issues with this:
 * A. The parameter names I picked are based on my estimate of the ones most liked by the community, based on debate in earlier sections. But debate petered out before a clear consensu, and it was a while ago, so there might be people who would prefer something else.
 * B. Changing the infobox will not change articles. We would need a bot run to split the parameters in the articles out there. (Unless someone feels like doing 2000+ manually)
 * C. One issue with autocats is that when I tried to make it work exactly as it has been done manually until now, I found that while the infobox uses singular, some categories are in plural, which is a pain when the plural form is nonstandard. Basically, the code would have to list each nonstandnard case with it's correct form. Alternativly, switching to nonplural categories would be easier and less errorprone, but go against current practice.
 * Backsword


 * Wouldn't "Type" be just "species" again? (as in Category:Species) So, just leaving it with the old name while adding the affiliation paramenter could save some work later if this is aproved... (added) Also, may want to consider allowing the specification of "species" and "subspecies", and allowing the non-inclussion of affiliations for those cases where there is not clear one even exists.--Fighterdoken 21:56, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Please check the examples page. Backsword 09:19, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd welcome autocategorisation for species too, but to do that, as Fighterdoken mentioned, you'd need to allow subspecies to be specified in the infobox. At this point, I don't particularly care about the name anymore, but it's true that retaining "species" makes for an easier transition, particularly for future NPC articles created by users not aware of the change. But then again, if we introduce "subspecies", not retaining "species" does encourage those users to try and locate the how-to for the new infobox. And I'd rather we stick with plural categories. If it proves a little too unwieldy or too inefficient, we can always just leave it as manual categories for species. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png| ]] 02:00, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't really get what you mean by subspecies. GW don't have them. You're not getting it mixed up with some other game? The only thing I can think of in that direction is morphology in model use (thus reskins), but that's a trait of the model, the NPC simply uses a certain model. Backsword 09:19, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * When it comes to plural categories, doing it manually won't work. We'd have to know they needed it for us to do it manually, and if we do, we don't need to do it as it could be in the code. The tricky part is predicting all irregualr plural forms. I'll post my current list. Backsword 09:19, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I like this change, type seems a bit easier than species sometimes. But how do we get to know affiliation, what's the definition? (I haven't been following this huge species discussion that was before) Do we need to link affiliation, are we going to keep articles on them all? And also, could we make lists of all types and maybe affiliations in game, like we have an (incomplete) list of species at Creature atm? I think having such a list would be great to be able to put new NPCs in, since you have a set to choose from. (A guide on how we classify them would be even better, but maybe over the top?) I think the plural categories should stay. I'm not opposed to keeping them manual, but if you are willing to work the oddities into the autocat, all love. - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]] 09:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I think much of the material is already on the wiki, just spread out over a number of pages. Creature has some, but it's wrong in some places. The creature project is peobably the best listing. Army has some, tho' that's mixed up with lore. My sandbox have a limited listing, and I know Gordon has done stuff related to it.


 * The way I've set it up, any NPC who is lacking one of the affiliation and type fields get put in a category for such articles, which one could run a project around. Or probably just hijack the creature one, seeing as it's sort of silent and we have enough dead projects as it is. Would also be the place to clarify issues.

As for articles on all affiliations, I think we should and already do for the more interesting ones. The more generic ones may be too boring for anyone to write about them, so I imagine we'd oft just redirect them to their region article. At least until someone feels up to writing them. Perhaps we could do a template, like with skills, and create DPL lists. Should be easy enough with this new infobox. Backsword 12:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The Creature article is just weird, imo. We don't use the term creature anywhere else really, so I think merging it into NPC or similar would be more logical. Aren't NPC the main name we chose for everything, both hostile and friendly? - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]] 14:00, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Creatures would include the payer's charater. The have the same traits like livel,profession and type:Human so skills like disease works on them. Tho' I think the real reason we use it is because Anet has a creature team, not a NPC team. But agreed on the article. Could do with a major rewrite. Backsword 01:53, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Type plural list
| Afflicted = | Asura = | Charr = | Dredge = | Dwarf = | Forgotten = | Gaki = | Grawl = | Harpy = | Kappa = | Kirin = | Krait = | Incubus = | Jelly = | Mursaat = | Norn = | Shiro'ken = | Skale = | Skelk = | Tengu =
 * Plural of Kappa is Kappa. Do we still the "Fish -> Fishes"? Also, aren't the human subgroups affiliations rather than type? -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png| ]] 04:57, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, true about the Humans. - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]] 10:21, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Undead too. Type would be skeleton and so on. About Kappa, looking it up I find some have manually put it in kappas and other in kappa. The Japanese original is Kappa, as there is no plural grammar in Japanese. I guess the word is common enough that some thinks it should have a plural s. Backsword 12:15, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, I think I have a complete list now. The one thing that stands out is the Japanese loanwords. Should we consistently keep them to Japanese or English plurals? It's very haphazard right now. Backsword 13:49, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep them singular, because if you search a dictionary, you won't find it with an 's'. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png| ]] 04:55, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * That's the way I have it. But I wouldn't trust a dictionary on anything relating new words in the language. They tend to lag badly there. Backsword 01:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * what will be done with the species integer now? even if we add the species category with other plural forms maually to the pages, this will leave a non-existent, red-linked category...
 * i'd suggest to add an species category parameter to the template. the diffrent category would still have to be done manually, but like this there wouldn't arise any wrong categories. &mdash;Zerpha[[Image:UserZerpha The Improver sig.png|talk]] The Improver 01:12, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * nvmd, your method is better :P &mdash;Zerpha[[Image:UserZerpha The Improver sig.png|talk]] The Improver 01:13, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Plural of Shiro'ken is Shiro'ken. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 13:54, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Profession
I propose we make the  a required parameter and if left blank it will just say  Unknown. My reasoning behind this is that according to the person at ArenaNet who designs all of the monsters, every creature in all of Guild Wars has a profession, so why don't we list them? Also, I'd like it if it is left blank or x or unknown in the profession parameter, it auto categorizes in a catoegory such as Category:Creatures missing profession or Category:Creatures with unknown profession. &mdash;  ク  Eloc  貢  22:29, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Not all NPC's are creatures, I doubt they picked a profession for Bob the dye merchant in lion's arch -- Lemming [[Image:User Lemming64 sigicon.png]] 00:09, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * 'Bob' is a mesmer with Ether Feast, IIRC. Backsword 07:22, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
 * If we can find where the monster designer posted it, we'll see. &mdash;  ク  Eloc  貢  08:43, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * When they are allied to the party, NPCs always show a profession in their health bars. Even if they have no skills. That profession is usually monk o warrior. That's because all NPCs have a profession. But putting an 'unkown' in most articles is unnecesary. It's completely impossible to know the profession of almost all NPCs that never use skills. We should put 'unkown' if we had a way to know the profession later on. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 10:21, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * If we knew what the profession is, then couldn't we wouldn't need, right? At the very least I want to add a parameter for . Sort of like how you type in E into the box and it gives you Elementalist, I'd like to at the very least do that for  as it would be faster than typing it out. &mdash;  ク   Eloc  貢  17:02, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I had that in a early version of my update. However, I removed it as one: it doesn't look good to me, and two: it's not neccessary. In the context of the infobox, knowing that all creatures have a primary profession, a missing profession cvan only ever mean one thing: unknown. Hence adding it provides no service. That's different from an NPC listing where a missing profession may well mean 'haven't checked the NPC article for it yet'. Backsword 07:21, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yup. Being a slot thet will never be filled is not necessary. In such casses a simple note in the NPC article stating that all NPCs have profession, family, army, word and unique ID is enough. Then, as we'll probably never know the profession and the unique ID in many of them, we simple do not put that as a default empty slot in the infoboxes, but as slots that will appear once filled with data. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 12:24, 22 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Putting "unknown", "unspecified", "to be added...", "more info later..." has always been discouraged. If something is not in an article, it's either "not known" or "not applicable". If we start applying "unknown" to things that we don't know, it indirectly and incorrectly implies that those without "unknown" are known. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png| ]] 02:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Affiliation (2)
How come the infobox link for Affiliation brings you to the creature page while when you search Affiliation, it redirects you to the Army page? &mdash;  ク  Eloc  貢  00:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Krait
According to the Eye of the North manual, Krait is both singular and plural, if no one objects, I'll change the template's auto-categorization to reflect this. -- Gordon Ecker 06:08, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Hm... let's see... "The Krait" "The kraits"... "Krait" sounds better. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 15:19, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Same here. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png| ]] 13:22, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Calor  [[Image:User_Calor_Sig.png|19px|Talk]] 17:33, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * As nobody wanted to do it (but still requested deletion for the still used category), I implemented it. poke | talk 22:14, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

event affiliation
what should be done about the affiliation of npcs associated w/ an event? ppl add the event an npc is associated w/, but b/c of autocat, they npc gets listed in the event category. this is an issue b/c event npcs are already listed in the "x event" NPCs category. e.g. the Nian and the categories (category:Canthan New Year category:Canthan New Year NPCs). if every npc were listed this way, all the npcs would just get listed in the main category. it's also complicated by the fact that some npcs are associated not just w/ events, but activities like dragon area or costume brawl. still other npcs, like Icy Grentch are affiliated w/ another NPC such as category:Grenth. i'd rather the affiliation parameter link directly to the event NPC category, but i don't know how to set it up that way. -- VVong | BA 20:04, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 * All the other affiliaton cats uses the straight name. I'd prefer it if this was the same for all groups. I.e either all cats has NPC tagged onto them, or none does. Backsword 12:45, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * what about creating a new parameter, such that any event npc's affiliation will have the autocat append NPC to the end of the affiliation parameter? -- VVong | BA 15:12, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Has anyone at ArenaNet stated or implied that holiday NPCs have their own armies / affiliations? If not, I would consider the use of the affiliation parameter to tag festival NPCs to be abusive, excessively speculative and misleading. Army / affiliation is an actual game mechanics trait, like family / species, profession and level, if people just want to categorize pages, they can categorize them manually. -- [[Image:User Gordon Ecker sig.png]] Gordon Ecker (talk) 02:33, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * actually, i'd prefer that. up to this point, i've removed any attempts to put a label on the affiliation of these npcs. -- VVong | BA 05:43, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, there are some things that are 'temporary', but not 'historical', there could be an info tag for them like there is for discarded and historical content. Something like "This article is for a that appears only during . Yaddayaddayadda..." Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 19:44, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Andrew McLeod. Backsword 08:51, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * so andrew said the festival npcs are their own armies? i didn't see any text there about festivals. -- VVong | BA 14:30, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it would help if you linked the revision where he said it, Backsword. - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]] 19:32, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

PRE-EMPTED APPOLOGY
before anyone shouts at me, i edited the info box so i could use it on my user page and didn't realise i was changing the actual template, don't worry tho, i changed it all back :D <--just incase someone is scouring the recent history page :D Kraal 15:07, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Changed the background settings a little
I had seen previously that someone had brought up a concern with a table showing the lines behind it through the contents of the table, and to fix this, to set the table background to white. While working on the list I am doing, I noticed that the NPC infobox used on a charr boss page had the same problem (I would guess, not knowing exactly what they were seeing). I edited the infobox style to have a white background to not show the lines through it when displayed over them. Checked it, and it seems to work as intended. 42 - talk  04:25, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

NOTOC tag
I have seen on many of the pages that many infoboxes are used on, that someone has to manually add a tag. Specifically locations and NPC pages. I suggest adding this to the guideline to allow the tag to be added to the templates pages. 42 - talk  06:23, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
 * This is already being discussed at GWWT:CP, so let's keep discussion centralised there for now (since that seems to be the place with the most responses). -- pling User Pling sig.png 13:24, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Proposing a change to Affiliation
I propose a change Wyn proposed a change over at formating npc to make Affiliation Optional and to show up only when they are affilated with like Cosairs, Am Fah, Jade Brotherhood, etc. Instead of affiliating them with land like wildlife or their culture like Norn, Asura, etc. -- riyen ♥  22:30, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * You do do you? lol -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  22:37, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * over here, well, you proposed it first there. :-P (silly face) So yea I agree, I think it needs to be changed. Just trying to get others to see what they think. It should be changed at both places, here and there. -- [[File:User Ariyen sig icon.gif]] riyen ♥  22:47, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * This also automatically adds the category "whatever the affiliation is" to the page, and I think this is a good thing. Not using the affiliation would remove that helpful category link to the page.


 * Game players are in a certain game area, and they want to find out what other creatures they might have to fight. With the affiliation filled in properly, they can easily tell.  If it isn't there, then they need to go hunting for that information.  Removing them would make it more of a problem on the people this wiki is for, the game player.  42 -  talk  23:24, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * If removing the part that would make it always appear on there. It wouldn't show up on others as "not specified". It'd show up only on the ones needed. This is related to the discussion on the Formatting NPCs and to go with many who are against affilations like Norn, Canthans, wildlife area, etc. I think it would do better to be Optional. -- [[File:User Ariyen sig icon.gif]] riyen ♥ 23:28, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Having it show up as "not specified" or not isn't the issue. If it isn't there, even if that doesn't show up, would mean having to add this categorization information by hand (possibly to over 2,000 pages) that this information is still missing on.  I disagree that it is "optional".  42 -  talk  07:49, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Solely missing the point of this change: |- valign="top"

! style="background-color:#EBB;" | Affiliation Taking out - this section - Not specified Now it would lead down to this section And taking out this section | would have it to be optional. I'll have to try on my sandbox to make sure, but no problem. That's the change I propose. The removal of those two areas. I did this via my sandbox and have figured out how to possibly get it to work. Just I would need to actually test it in a template to make sure. Here's a link User:Ariyen/Sandbox/Test to what I have done. It can be redone, to be optional. -- riyen ♥  10:13, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * - valign="top"
 * - valign="top"


 * This discussion is going on in another location at the same time. Should we move this line to that location and leave a "this discussion moved here note?  42 -  talk  03:54, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No, it's similar, but not the same. This is about the 'technical' code of the template of the affilation and optional, not about affiliation it's self. -- [[File:User Ariyen sig icon.gif]] riyen ♥ 03:59, 10 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The purpose and the point of discussion is the same, the affiliation tag in the infobox. The reason to do the change (if one is to be done) is as much a point, and that is why it should be carried out in one place.  42 -  talk  04:14, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Huh? I don't see how you get this. I'm talking about the actual coding of the box to help it be optional from required. The Possible way. Not about whether it should or not - that's the discussion on that page. They're not the 'same' - that one doesn't deal with the coding part it's self. This one does, there's a difference. -- [[File:User Ariyen sig icon.gif]] riyen ♥ 04:16, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The reason for any proposed template change is because you think it (the affiliation tag) should be optional. How is that not the same reason for doing the change? It is about the affiliation tag and if it should be there or not. People should also be aware that you are proposing a change to the formatting so that they can offer opinions on that as well. 42 - talk  04:37, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * "Huh?"
 * You haven't checked the rfc have you? If you had, you'd shush instead of this insisting nonsense drama. Look, This thought it self was suggested by WYN not me. LOOK before you READ. Secondly, this is about the TECHNICAL part of the NPC box, A suggestion, if (and most likely) that other passes. Many don't seem to know this can be optional it's self, just having the filling it out be optional or not, that's what that is about.  So, stop this drama, insisting this belongs else where, when obviously you don't know what it's about. Now, hopefully you do. Next time, ask before you assume. You wouldn't look so bad. -- [[File:User Ariyen sig icon.gif]] riyen ♥  04:52, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

"Look, This thought it self was suggested by WYN not me." So, you missed the post I made above "The reason for any (I should have used this instead of any) proposed template change is because you think it should be optional." Nowhere in there did I say you suggested the affiliation necessity/change. The template change you "are" proposing, though. And it is still a related issue.

"So, stop this drama, insisting this belongs else where, when obviously you don't know what it's about. Now, hopefully you do. Next time, ask before you assume." "This discussion is going on in another location at the same time. Should we move this line to that location and leave a "this discussion moved here note?" That looks a lot like "asking" from my understanding of the English language.  I also do not see any "insisting" by me anywhere in this discussion line that this belongs somewhere else.

I get that you are suggesting a template change to allow it to be optional, that is not the point. I am suggesting that this discussion be moved to the related affiliation issue discussion. 42 - talk  05:12, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * If it was the same. I'd see that, but there is enough differences that the discussion should stay. This discussion is in relation to the template more-so than the relation to the other discussion. Therefore, the discussion is where it belongs. -- [[File:User Ariyen sig icon.gif]] riyen ♥  05:19, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Secondly, you did not ask why this discussion was here and not there. What it was for. It was assumed to be similar and the same. you suggested a move, you did not really ask for a move or anything about this discussion, therefore you 'assumed' this should be 'combined' there, not seeing the differences. -- [[File:User Ariyen sig icon.gif]] riyen ♥ 05:21, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

42 and Ariyen, get a room, please... (seriously...) About the issue being discussed, i remember we had some... "concerns" when Backsword first brought the distinction between "afiliation" and "species". All in all, since there is no feasible way to discern what afiliation non-"of slaying" npcs have, i think it just makes sense to have this field in particular show as an optional entry on the infobox, instead of making it visible as "unknown".--Fighterdoken 05:31, 10 December 2009 (UTC)


 * FD, I am presenting a point of view, and having someone else take issue with it. I have no personal axe to grind.


 * This issue was also discussed back in 2007 judging by talk page posts already made on this subject. To quote an issue raised on another topic, why does this need to be changed now?  Why wasn't this fixed way back when?  (I don't happen to share it, just bringing it up because it seems to be a valid point to this discussion as well.)  42 -  talk  06:01, 10 December 2009 (UTC)


 * More than likely because:
 * None cared at the time.
 * None realized it could become an issue at the time.
 * None thought the "unknown" data entries would be the rule instead of the exception.
 * All of the above.
 * Still, now is as good of a time to fix it as any other.--Fighterdoken 06:08, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * That's why I'm proposing to fix it. Not fix it and have an issue that way either. -- [[File:User Ariyen sig icon.gif]] riyen ♥ 06:09, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Secondly 42, you didn't present a point of view. you had an issue with it being here. Not knowing and assuming is not as good as asking. That's why you 'proposed' a move. Instead of not knowing why the discussion was started here. *shrugs* So, Fighterdoken (not shortening your name, that's rude, unless you want it.), do you think I should edit the page and have Affilation be optional? Or wait until more have a say? -- [[File:User Ariyen sig icon.gif]] riyen ♥ 06:13, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Personally, i would "really" prefer to wait until Backsword comments on it (since i blame him for all this XD), or at least give it a couple days. Meanwhile, testing on a sandbox would be a good idea...--Fighterdoken 06:21, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yea, kinda waiting on him. I did the test here of what I could User:Ariyen/Sandbox/Test. You can participate, too. If you want. I think I'd need like a template sandbox to make sure it works or not, but not sure. I just know that so far, it looks promising. -- [[File:User Ariyen sig icon.gif]] riyen ♥  06:42, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I repost my "asking" "Should we move this line to that location and leave a "this discussion moved here note?" . It is amazing how much that looks like asking a question.  I then presented why I thought it could or should be somewhere else, some people call that presenting a point of view.  I understand that it is a template discussion, even if you want to keep telling me I don't, Ariyen.
 * No Ariyen, I didn't have an issue. I asked a question, you tried making it out like I had an issue.  And you really need to stop trying to put words in people's mouths like you are.
 * ("Secondly 42, you didn't present a point of view. you had an issue with it being here. Not knowing and assuming is not as good as asking. That's why you 'proposed' a move. Instead of not knowing why the discussion was started here."


 * And FD, what you posted was actually similar to my response to fixing something else that I saw as an issue. The "reason" (leaving it alone because it has been there for a long time) that I disagree with that I posted before was presented to me as a reason to leave it (the other issue) alone.  42 -  talk  07:40, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I dropped it by last comment, you can't. You have no idea what this discussion is about, you were ' wrong' in the move, not checking the above discussions. I say if this needs to be moved, the others needed to be moved to the formatting/npc as both Areas have 'Affilation'. That gives no reason for a move. Drop it. Continue it, you are proving yourself wrong, and quoting only shows even more that you have an issue. Most with issues either leave things alone, stop their drama or go about something productive, like playing the game. This is a wiki. it's not 'serious' business like you want it to be. It's based on a game. If you want seriousness? Go have a life. -- [[File:User Ariyen sig icon.gif]] riyen ♥ 07:58, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually Ariyen, the quotes are there to show you how you are attempting to put words in other people's mouths, and show how you try to make it seem like they have an issue with something when they don't. That is my only point with the quotes. Continuing or not has nothing at all to do with proving myself or anyone wrong, that was never the idea. All I did was ask a question, and you blow it up into something huge and try to blame someone else for doing the same thing. 42 - talk  06:12, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Oooooook, to answer your initial question:
 * The problem we have with "affiliation" is that the only way a common user has for checking the value of it is through "of-slaying" weapons, vs +armor shields, skill with army limitations, or through in-game npc-to-npc interaction.
 * Since it's just not possible to get the information for most of those 2000+ npcs, the only value we can assign them is "unknown", and an "unknown affiliation" category is not useful for documenting purposes when we have no way to "fill the blank". --Fighterdoken 06:24, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I got that side of things, but isn't it possible to use the already included auto cat included on that particular attribute of the infobox to "affiliate" the unknowns by region? That way, the affiliation, when not specifically used to flag because of that, still retains the usefulness it needs for the other ones, and can also help by making it able to have the regional affiliation as well.  42 -  talk  06:31, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * No. The affiliation parameter was not set for that purpose. What you ask would mean we would just be making up affiliations. Besides, for your example in particular, NPCs may be encountered on more than one region.--Fighterdoken 06:35, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I am aware of that, but in that case, the classification could be bumped up to whatever lowest level that particular NPC could be tagged as being in. For example, say an NPC showed up in the Northern and Southern Shiverpeak Mountains.  Then the "region" would be "Shiverpeak Mountains", and so on.  In theory, this could apply all the way up to the campaign, because, as far as I know, the NPCs this would apply to do not "jump ship" from one campaign to another, and the ones that do like the Charr (which doesn't even have an infobox, sorry), can have this noted in the body of the article page.  42 -  talk  06:52, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * This is now getting off topic (off the technial) and should be talked about on the Formatting part. -- [[File:User Ariyen sig icon.gif]] riyen ♥ 06:57, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * @42. Again, that would mean we would be making up an affiliation. We don't provide false information just for the sake of filling up blank spaces.--Fighterdoken 06:59, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Not in reality Ariyen, since this (I think) could be the starting of a discussion to tweak the infobox template to have a region line. In that case, this discussion would just need another section header, and it could otherwise stay right where it is.


 * FD, it isn't making up anything. The information is already there.  It is not false.  42 -  talk  07:04, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * You have made it to become dealing with Affiliation it's self, not the template. So, I'd suggest moving part of this article to the formatting NPCs. -- [[File:User Ariyen sig icon.gif]] riyen ♥ 07:20, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Add damage type parameter?
Since many foes use the same type of damage with their attacks, i think it might be a good idea to add a line for their damage type. It's pretty obvious for some foes such as the Stoneaxe Heket, but there are also foes like Spectral Vaettir dealing earth damage, or Warriors like Trolls or Ettins where you can't see their damage type since they do not wield a normal weapon. &mdash;Zerpha The Improver 12:42, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd like such a thing. There are some odd ones though like Mountain Pinesouls. Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Jupiter.jpg|19px]] 18:13, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Damage type is not inherrent to NPCs. It is caused by the weapons they wield and the skills they us. Should list that instead. Backsword 18:17, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Since this infobox is used for non-combatant npcs, i would prefer to leave such information out of it. The body of the page should be good enough, same as with armor ratings.--Fighterdoken 18:20, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Non-combatant NPCs? It seems to be used by all NPCs. I think an optional damage type line would be a helpful addition. -- [[Image:User_Kirbman sig.png]] Kirbman 06:04, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Infobox parameters are generally used for things that could apply to just about any page that uses it. Damage type, like health would not be figure-outable for a large number of NPCs. There is the NPC statistics template for further information about an NPC, which is currently only being used for armor ratings. I'll also plug the fact that we have a number recorded damage types ready to go, although finding the specific type of physical damage is a huge pain (the downside of Bladeturn Refrain's change). Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Neptune.jpg|19px]] 14:33, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

More professions
I don't want to risk breaking something, so could someone up the number of possible professions to 6 please? White Mantle Sycophants and a few other WiK foes have more than three. Manifold  18:15, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Health parameter?
Is this really necessary? Especially as a required parameter? -- Wyn  talk  12:59, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It was brought up previously that if we ever wanted to record enemy health totals we could use Template:NPC statistics. I don't think the infobox is really the right place for it. Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Jupiter.jpg|19px]] 14:48, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Well I think it is very important. I think it looks better in the template then written as a note.  I mean they have health bars but the scaling changes according to overall health.  If it is important enough to have it in the game then I think it should be here as well. X treme  15:37, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * One problem with that is that most monsters have the standard HP scaling of lvl*20 + 80 hp, and since that is the norm, we don't really need to list it. --JonTheMon 15:41, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * well then in the template make 80hp default X treme 15:42, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd like to document it too, Xtreme, but the infobox is used for friendly NPCs too, which are much harder to test and probably less interesting. The Template:NPC statistics is currently only being used for armor ratings, but could be expanded into "statistics", including health and energy. Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Jupiter.jpg|19px]] 15:45, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought it would be great idea to have it in there just like the level however you can always make it an option then rather than required. I think it should be required since all NPC's have health but an option to have it hidden is possible as well. X treme  15:48, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree, the infobox is the wrong location for that. If we start to add health to it, we can't just end there and would have to add other data there as well. And the infobox already holds enough information. poke | talk 17:24, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Where would be the proper spot for it then? Notes? Can we just add a heart with a number beside it on all the pages instead of having it under notes? X treme  17:33, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Or a health bar with the number inside it? X treme 17:34, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I think adding it to the statistics template would be more appropriate. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  17:36, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The "Armor Ratings" section would be renamed to something more general. Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Jupiter.jpg|19px]] 17:42, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Render Parameter
Due to the numerous discussions about rendered images vs screenshots, I made a mock-up template with a rendered variable that doesn't intrude upon the page. It can be seen here. I made this is response to this conversation, and is also directly related to this other template I made for the Weapon infobox to solve the same issue. This and the other template I made can be placed over the current template, and wont break the pages its used on. It would only need a person or a group of people to go about adding in the new image and variable into the template. What Im wondering is should this be used? Many people comment that renders are great because they look clean, and the images can be used elsewhere and allow for transparencies. However, Screenshots display the said NPC within the world, and generally will have minimal errors due to the "rendering" process. I personally think that both have their merits. What the true question is then is should the additional images be allowed? It would essentially double the number of images per NPC, requiring the current rendered NPCs images to be reverted and the render re-uploaded as a new image.--Neithan Diniem 05:40, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Given that a lot NPC have already renders and in those cases all screenshots were deleted, and given that NPCs are not just enemies and for any friendly NPC it makes more sense to show the render, I would rather see a screenshot parameter instead. Or maybe even a screenshot parameter, that - if set - shows the screenshot as the normal image position and the render somewhere else or just the render if it is not set. poke | talk 22:49, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Well by now my infobox template has reached a useable state, and I am wondering if anyone wishes it to be accepted. As for the screenshots, I myself would go through and take some. Ill be working on a bit of the code, to have it display the render if no screenshot is present, and hide the render if it is. Im swamped right now though with a 3D modeling project Im working on. Other than that, its all green. If the voice actor project here is desired to be added to the infobox space, I already have the code made up for that.--<span style="color: darkblue; font-family: Old English Text MT, script; font-size:110%">Neithan Diniem 23:36, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Addition to box
I recently created a project where voice actors should be added to npc and hero pages. Guild Wars Wiki:Projects/Voice Actors -- Wings of Blood 01:42, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Note, Can someone also add the code for Voice Actor and it's category addon. I believe this is a much needed addition. Please feel free to post it on the Guild Wars Wiki:Projects/Voice Actors/Demo Page -- Wings of Blood 01:47, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Information such as that may would better under the "trivia" section of the NPCs, with links to pages created for the voice actors. G R E E N E R  05:53, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't understand why this need to go in the infobox. Sace is limited and obviously, most of the article doesn't happen there. In addition, this may need longer text that mismatches with the infobox style on the wiki. Historically, the boxs is used for data points of game info, dtabase entry style, and this doesn't seem to fit that pattern. Backsword 23:06, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * See this, should be your explanation. It doesn't clutter and it would be best that the voice actor link would lead to wiki so it would reduce the number of uneccesary pages. -- Wings of Blood 03:51, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and added it to the info box, along with reason and example. I'm sorry I didn't get a couple people to agree but I feel strongly that this is important and would've only taken a long time with alot of people debating. Doesn't clutter and is easy to understand. Lucian Shadowborn  [[Image:User_Lucian Shadowborn.jpg|19px]] 23:15, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * You shouldn't have.... the community doesn't want that information in the infobox. More than one person has expressed that opinion. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  23:43, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeh, two. Two people don't represent the entirety of the community. Can you at least look at Zhed Shadowhoof and it's corresponding Robin Atkin Downes. This does not create a large workload and the other npcs that dont have voices are not affected by the change. Lucian Shadowborn  [[Image:User_Lucian Shadowborn.jpg|19px]] 23:47, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * You have this discussion spread over several pages... Backsword and Greener said no on this page, Pling, Jon, said no on this page, so right there you have 4, considering the number of people that are involved in the discussions, I think that's enough to say you don't have consensus for this. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  23:53, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Well personaly, i think its a great idea.  +1.-- Neil   2250  User Neil2250 sig icon6.png 00:06, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Add multiple affiliation and creature type parameters?
While at any given time, a singular NPC has only one affiliation and creature type, there are cases of multiple NPCs sharing the same name, model, lore, etc. but being of different NPCs mechanically. These NPCs are still documented in the same article - e.g., Shiro Tagachi, who is mechanically a demon up until Imperial Sanctum, where he's a human, or Sarah and Benton who're both a human and later a ghost. Likewise, where every NPC has an affiliation, some creatures are tied to the generic affiliations of the region. For instance, Stone Elementals, which are seen in multiple regions (Ascalon and pre-Searing Ascalon), both of which having their own generic affiliations, will likely have two affiliations as a whole - those in pre-Searing tied to the pre-Searing Ascalon generic affiliation, and those in post-Searing tied to the post-Searing Ascalon generic affiliation. As such, I'd like to propose placing multiple (2 or 3) creature type/affiliation parameters. I'd do this myself, but these infobox templates confuse me in their massive codings.  Konig / talk 01:34, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I second that.--[[File:User Necro Shea mo signature.jpg]] Necro   Shea   Mo  20:25, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * There, give it a go and see if it works :P– User Balistic B d-dark.png<font color="#7777cc">alistic 04:15, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Seems to work. Thanks!  Konig / talk 04:17, 13 July 2011 (UTC)