ArenaNet talk:AI bugs/discussion

Discussion
Where do I discuss this page? And we really need edit sections, which is what I want to complain about. Hooray, i get to edit a 92KB page and find EXACTLY where mine is!! Hoorah! frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 00:41, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh man, I agree. I think that happens because of the bug template. You can edit from the top of a category at least. Anyway, I'll see if we can do something about this. -Kim Chase 17:16, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Discuss at ArenaNet talk talk:AI bugs?  &lt;HORSEDROWNER&gt;  17:51, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

August 7 update
Considering the amount of issues resolved after the update, I suggest we simply archive all the skills that were updated and discuss all the changes in this topic instead of replying to individual skill changes. --Draikin 21:13, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That is an excellent idea. Since I'm still a little busy that will probably increase my response time on these updates a great deal. I will do my best to answer questions and report your concerns. -Kim Chase 00:55, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll start archiving skills starting with the least complex bugfixes first when I have the time. I'd also like to thank everyone at ArenaNet who worked on resolving all of these issues, all of these bugfixes combined make a lot of difference not only for for Heroes in HB and PvE but it also makes PvE monster AI provide more of a "real" challenge to PvE players. --Draikin 01:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * As you probably noticed I archived most of the updated issues. Regarding my view on the update, I think the new functionality that makes heroes use skills less or more likely depending on certain conditions solves a lot of problems. While there are a few skills where I think it's not the ideal solution (Signet of Shadows, Unnatural Signet, Extinguish), they're not exactly skills that are used all that often. More importantly, I think a lot of other skills could benefit from this kind of change, such as Wild Blow (less likely when not using a stance), Wielder's Boon (less likely when not under the effect of a weapon spell), Dwayna's Kiss, Cure Hex, Words of Comfort, Signet of Rejuvenation, Healing Ribbon, Lacerating Chop, ... Would these kind of updates still be feasible? --Draikin 18:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, most definitely. Joe said he really enjoyed working on them, in fact. I'll get back to you in a while on the ones you just mentioned. -Kim Chase 00:09, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * And thank you for archiving all of that. -Kim Chase
 * Hi Kim, maybe you're already aware of this bug but it seems melee henchmen are currently set to "Fight" mode instead of "Defend" which is causing them to rush into mobs when they're not supposed to. I already reported the bug to Technical Support but I guess it can't hurt to post it here as well. Good to hear further improvements to the AI are still possible :) --Draikin 00:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think warrior henchmen being on "Fight" is anything new or a bug. In fact, when you first unlock a warrior hero they default to Fight, and you have to customize them to be on a different setting. Henchmen are not customizable, and so they remain as they are. -Kim Chase 21:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * They're definitely a lot more aggressive now than they were before though, as other people have pointed out simply starting the Ring of Fire mission shows Devona attacking the Mursaat from the start while the rest of the team doesn't react. Given the number of complaints on the forums regarding melee henchmen now, it does seem like something was changed. --Draikin 00:31, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * After reading the complaints on the forums, I think the aggro range of "Defend" which was adjusted to the lower end for heroes should be increased since people are constantly complaining about their casters not responding when they're flagged back. The defensive range could probably be increased to 1.7 or 1.75 times the aggro bubble range (currently it seems to be 1.5) without introducing any real problems. --Draikin 00:59, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

August 7 update issues
The latest improvements to the AI unfortunately introduced a number of problems as well. The spell casting bug was already acknowledged, but I haven't seen any confirmation from ArenaNet regarding the new melee henchmen aggro issue (see for a thread with people complaining about it). There also seem to be a number of issues with flagging heroes in Hero Battles now. Heroes on Defend will now kite further away from their flagged position than before, this is very noticeable when letting a defensive hero fight against a R/P with a pet. The pet will often cause the hero to kite outside of shrine range, allowing the ranger to cap it. While this occasionally happened before the update as well, defensive heroes are now practically guaranteed to abandon their shrine when kiting over time. Heroes also seem to stop (and even run back) to heal allies when running towards their flag more often than they did before. --Draikin 19:22, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes these bugs are very noticable and are irritating tons of HBers including me. I love the new ai and keep up the work but these bugs are annoying. Flagging your hero correctly but still losing the shrine because of them kititng out of range is extremely frustrating and has cost me quite a few games. Another annoyance as draiken stated above is when your heros run back. When i flag my hero over to a shrine i want him to run to the shrine and get their fas enoguh so the other team hasnt neutralized it by the time he gets their. and since the update the heros seem to be taking their time getting to the shrine and are healing you for long durations after you have flagged them so the shrine you were trying to keep is now neutralized. ive lost a few games cause of this too and it would be nice to have it so mayb if like the differnt modes do thing differently when runing like on avoid mode they can run back and heal but defend mode they dont because sometimes the heals are useful but sometimes they are not nessacary and may cost u the game. X tigercat x 02:41, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I can't help but wonder if the defensive range for heroes was actually increased when it comes to skills that are used on allies, because that would explain why they're overextending from flags the way they are now. It's almost as if the current "Defend" range is the old "Fight" range when they're using "target ally" skills... --Draikin 18:27, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

August 21st Update
Hey guys. I haven't been as active on this page in the last week. I wanted to open this section to talk about the AI changes made today.

First off, Melee henchmen are now on Guard. Melee henchmen have been on Fight for as long as the option has been available. The reason they appeared to be more agressive after the 7th was due to the weapon range change. Basically, everyone with longer rage weapons were reeled in, and the melee guys had a very minor range increase. The fact that they stood out from the group is what made them seem out of hand. In today's build they have been changed to Guard based on the player response to the last build. The downside is that melee henchmen will no longer enter combat at the same range as a hero set to aggressive. I'm going to miss that a bit, since I really likes having Devona, Talon, and Goren all engage the enemy first me in PvE, but overall I think it feels a lot better.

Joe put in a neat new system to help keep heroes and henchmen on a tighter tether. This makes them much more responsive when you are trying to flee, and keeps them in line if they are trying to chase a target too far away. In doing this, and with some other tweaks, Joe finally reduced the issue that caused heroes to spin in circles when trying to decide if they should run towards a target or return to their homepoint. They are a lot smarter about choosing and completing these types of actions now.

I am very curious to see what you guys think of this update in Hero Battles and in PvE play. -Kim Chase 20:45, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the update. I still find it difficult to believe melee henchmen only had a minor range increase, but in any case the current update resolved that issue. Heroes indeed aren't indecisive anymore when deciding to attack a target or stay, nice work Joe. Unfortunately those fixes didn't resolve the cancel/cast/cancel bug which is still occurring a lot more since the Agust 7 update, apparently this one is difficult to resolve? The new update also seemed to have changed the way the AI uses certain skills, causing MM not to create minions from corpses and monks not resurrecting allies outside of battle. For Hero Battles, currently the main issue there is the cancel/cast/cancel bug. Heroes seemed more aggressive at using skills on allies and also seemed to abandoned their flag easier after the August 7 update, but I have yet to test if anything was changed there. --Draikin 00:12, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * To clarify the issue with heroes abandoning flags, simply bringing a R/P (spear + pet) and letting them fight a healer monk or ritualist on the center shrine on The Beachhead in a 1v1 (monk on Defend or Evade) should show how the pet consistently causes the healer to run outside of the shrine range. Perhaps that already happened before the update and it's just a coincidence that this seems to occur more often, I can't say for sure. --Draikin 00:30, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I see, the update seems to make heroes use skills that they used to maintain before the update only when there are enemies within double the aggro bubble range now (Divine Boon, Apply Poison, ...). Is this an undocumented update? It's a good solution for the AI usage of spirits like Life (although it makes them very predictable to interrupt in HB), but I assume the MM and other skill problems are a side-effect of that change. --Draikin 00:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * We're looking into these report now. Thank you. -Kim Chase 17:03, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

--Kelandra Is anyone one else having a problem with heroes and henchmen? I have noticed that heroes I set as a minion master will not raise minions unless there is more then one enemy in range. When traveling in the Wurms the heroes and the henchmen will not heal themselves using skill 7. I have had to kick start my heroes on countless occasions to raise minions and heal themselves and the monk heroes seem to prefer using Healing Ribbon rather then Word of Healing if both are equipped on Skill Bar and their I don't know what you would call it Heal response level has become rather low too.
 * The small update that just went up should have fixed the problem with heroes and henchies not using some skills out of combat. Kelandra, your MM heroes should be sane again. Draikin, we are still working on the cancel-cast-cancel issue. Please let us know if there's anything new and strange happening after today's update. Thanks! -Kim Chase 22:39, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the update again. It appears the issue with the MM and other skills (spirits for example) wasn't completely resolved: although their behavior is back to normal outside of battle, they now activate skills constantly when they should be following the party. This can be easily reproduced by giving a MM hero Death Nova and Jagged Bones in a PvE area. Although they always fell behind a bit, it's a lot worse now since they're activating those skills a lot more than they used to even though they're already on the edge of the radar. --Draikin 23:21, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, we've gotten some reports on this. Thank you, Draikin. It's being looked at now. -Kim Chase 23:25, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, the last build should have fixed the cast-cancel while following the leader issue. -Kim Chase 01:34, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I see, so basically what happened was that the MM used a skill, canceled it and then tried to use it again causing them to fall behind? This does seem to be resolved, although the update note was a bit misleading in that it seems to suggest that the cast-cancel bug was resolved completely. --Draikin 14:47, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The other cast-cancel issue doesn't seem to be based on fleeing to the leader, and is still being worked on. Thanks. -Kim Chase 22:53, 23 August 2008 (UTC)