Talk:Armor penetration

How much armor penetration? (stack)
If I use a ranger with a sundering hornbow, with penetrating attack, sundering weapon (cracked armor). 10% of hornbow, 20% for sundering, 10% for the other sundering, 20% for attack skill, 20% for cracked armor. So do I have 80% armor penetration now? And if I use Judges Insight aswell, do I have 100%? - Niphadora
 * Cracked Armor doesn't cause armor penetration. -- Gordon Ecker 09:14, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Or is it multiplied, such as HCT/HSR mods? if you have a 20/20/20/20 staff, your HCT and HSR are not 40%, but 36%.  Is this the same for AP? - elviondale  (tahlk) 16:21, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * 20/20/20/20 staff? What does a +1 to attribute have to do with anything? Paddymew 13:50, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the most is 75%: Spear of Lightning (base 25) using a Sundering (+20) spear under Judge's Insight (+20) and Warrior's Might (+10). A ranger can "only" get 70 (penetrating attack, sundering hornbow, warrior's might, judge's insight).

Which Category?
What determines base AP from additive AP? Judges insight is a spell, and causes AP, yet it's extra while other spells are base. Confusing? Silavor 01:05, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well it could be the wording in the skills. Judges Insight and Warrior's Might has the +10% AP clause while the skills that have base AP say "This spell/skill/attack has xx% armor penetration." and lacks the + sign. --74.61.209.219 20:33, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I still don't get it :P
Lets say I use Spear of Lightning *which grants 25% AP* with 10 in Strength *which grants 10% AP*, does that mean the spear attack will have an armor penetration of 35%? or there is a cap and it only applies the armor penetration of Spear of Lightning? and if there is a cap on how much armor penetration a skill or an attack can have, how much is it o.o" ??? Aljazya 18:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * 25%. You use your highest Base AP value (Spear of Lightning's 25 v Strenght's 10), and then you add any bonus AP like a Sundering weapon or Judge's Insight. There isn't a cap on AP, but there aren't many sources of +AP. - [[Image:User HeWhoIsPale sig.PNG]] HeWhoIsPale 18:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

SO...
...Strength doesnt stack with Penetrating Chop ??
 * Good question, I want to find the answer too. If I have 10 points in Strengh (10%AP) and have Judge's Insight (20%AP) will this result in 30% AP ??? And if so, 30% AP plus the Penetrating Chop will this result in 50% ??? Please we need answers !
 * ... if AP by strength does not stack... this makes Strength useless
 * True. divine favour stack, expertise stack, energy storage stack, fast casting stack, soul reaping stack. This make warrior the weakest primary profession to have.
 * First sign your comment, second test your-selfes, you have time to play GW don't you ? Then you have time to test. 92.85.194.203 14:25, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Some ppl argue that strength has many useful skills. True, but each player get to bring 8 skills only anyway.
 * Some ppl argue that warrior is compensate by high armor rating. Well, doesn't high armor rating ALREADY compensated by slower energy regeneration and smaller energy pool?
 * Lets say armor penetration is useful in PvE, when facing boss with high armor. PvP? It's not that useful relatively.
 * Please sign your posts. Considering that a 8 point armor reduction on a 60 armor character (13% penetration, applying strength) is almost a 14.8% damage increase, I hardly think strength isn't worth it, PvE or PvP. The armor penetration skills for warrior might be a little underpowered, but a static 13% penetration is amazing. (assuming 12+1+1 weapon, and 12+1 strength for attribute setup). Warriors provide many benefits in pvp, including solid pressure due to their primary attribute, spike damage and deep wound application, and the most versatile knockdown application of any class.  As for the orginal question. Penetrating chop will not stack with the strength, and I'm not sure if the stacking is additive, or applied in succession (not really sure how to test this either). Additive would mean penetrating chop with judges insight would deal 151% normal damage. Stacking would come out to 145% normal damage. Feel free to check my math, all my calculations are based on the damage calculation article. 134.71.135.160 22:34, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Sundering Weapon Note
Though Sundering weapon does cause Cracked Armor, CA doesn't affect armor penetration (unless I'm mistaken?). I would revert but I don't know how the 1RR would come into play here. Kara   talk  22:09, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

so
sundering wep isnt "added" but judges insight is? >> -- dark  chaos  i love chaos 22:10, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Sundering Weapon (the weapon skill buff) is base, not added. So yeah. Paddymew 22:32, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Fail less, imo. [[Image:User_Ryuu_R.jpg|19px]] Ryuu  - talk  22:34, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Armor Penetration is not a simple formula
Armor Penetration is not a simple formula. For example, for Lightning Javelin, with 25% armor penetration, the formula is not simply: armor x 0.75. Regularly Armor Penetration will cause the effective armor to be 1 lower than would be expected. For example, if Lightning Javelin hits a target with 60 armor, it does 66 damage. That damage corresponds with 44 armor. With a simple formula you would expect 60 x 0.75 = 45 armor. The influence of this can also be seen in the bottom table on this research page. Look at the numbers that are not bold and compare the numbers in EA (expected armor) columns with those in AA (actual armor) columns. In many cases, the actual armor is 1 lower than the expected armor. All of this leads me to believe the actual formula used with Armor Penetration is pretty complicated and includes some instances of rounding within that calculation. udas 16:17, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I thought it was a different simple formula, 25% translates to -25 AR (which would be an exponential decay formula, like all other armor-associated calculations). — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 16:34, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand what you are getting at. Are you saying 25% Armor Penetration just means -25 AR? Because that's not the case (see above, 60 AR - 25% AP results in 44 AR). User Judas Sig.pngudas 16:45, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * My experiences while running tests for Damage calculation support Judas's conclusion. I don't have enough information to correct the formula either, though. --Irgendwer 17:00, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It's 25% and then -1 armor no matter the original armor, I think. 100 armor is a sticky issue, many many enemies which should have 100 armor against a damage type effectively have 101. I had a discussion about this that may be interesting. Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Neptune.jpg|19px]] 17:07, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It's 25% and then -1 armor no matter the original armor, I think. 100 armor is a sticky issue, many many enemies which should have 100 armor against a damage type effectively have 101. I had a discussion about this that may be interesting. Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Neptune.jpg|19px]] 17:07, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * (Edit conflict) I'm saying that this wiki has long said: that 25% penetration means -25 AR. (I haven't tested what's true in-game).
 * GW@Wikia: "Armor penetration, often abbreviated as AP, refers to the amount of an opponent's armor that is ignored when calculating damage from a single damage-dealing attack or skill."


 * penetration GuildWiki: claims 25% = (1 - 0.25) * [original AR]
 * German Wiki: uses a more complicated set of calculations than I can translate quickly
 * — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 17:10, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

(reset indent) The German wiki just combines the armor penetration percentage with the armor rating formula to calculate the damage multiplier, and then uses that multiplier with the base damage: Damage = Base Damage * 2^((60 – (Target Armor * (100 – Armor Penetration Percentage) / 100)) / 40) This is what would be expected. However, if you input the values I listed at the start of this section: 50 base damage, 25% armor penetration, 60 armor, then you get: 50 * 2^((60 - (60 * (100 - 25) / 100)) / 40) = 64.84 damage. This does not correspond with the test result of 66 damage (64.84 would be rounded to 65 damage). The 64.84 damage does correspond to an armor value of 45 armor (64.84 x 50 shows a damage multiplier of 1.2968, the exact multiplier of 45 armor).

The notion that armor penetration subtracts 1 armor after the fact is not true either. Testing 60 armor with a bonus of +52 armor gives a total of 112 armor. Armor Penetration should lower this to 84 armor. And it does. So in this case AP did not subtract an additional 1 armor. Weird stuff. I can only imagine that the exact formula goes over multiple values with rounding in between to give these seemingly random additional armor subtractions. udas 19:50, 1 July 2011 (UTC)