User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/VoD feedback

I've been working on a change of how VoD works, I wanted to hear what everyone though and share some of my ideas. Things are still being worked on so things might be different but I wanted to hear your suggestions and ideas.

Currently this is what I'm planning on doing


 * VoD started at 18 min, Guild Lord Marches at 20 min. (this will make AT rounds 30 min long)


 * Npc's movement is broken up into 3 paths and there are 3 waves, 1st wave arrives at the stand 45s after VoD, 2nd wave arrives at 60s after vod, and 3rd 75s after vod. The 1st and 2nd wave are the outer npcs of the guild hall and the 3rd wave is the boat NPC's.


 * Added NPC's I added NPC's so that no map has fewer then 1 guild lord, 1 bodyguard, 2 knights, 8 archers * 2(for both teams). Maps like Isle of the Dead, and Fissure has very low number of NPC's.


 * Swapped bonus damage around: the Guild lord now takes extra damage from npc's rather then doing extra damage to npc's

Other changes I've been debating


 * Changing VoD buff from reducing health, to reduce healing.

Either way Let me know what you think. ~Izzy @-&#39; 00:35, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd like this changes. Not sure that Changing buff to reduce healing will be good. But I think most of us will need to test this new settings and then share their thoughts. BTW you've said "Maps like Isle of the Dead, and Fissure has very low number of NPC's." Fissure? Mistake or new map? --Kain 12:47, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Fissure=Burning? izzy calls nomads quicksand so its unlikely to be a new map.87.194.104.90 12:55, 8 August 2007 (UTC)Burton

Yeah sorry I know most maps by their code names which can be confusing ~Izzy @-&#39; 19:19, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

GL extra damage
Do heroes/hench count as NPCs against the guild lord? ~Seef II &lt;☎|→&gt; 00:47, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * They shouldn't. If they did do extra damage, it'd be a bug. - Auron 04:20, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

No it doesn't they checks the type and only work with the Guild Hall NPC's. It will work on the thief thou. ~Izzy @-&#39; 19:26, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * we fixed the bug but it was basically checking if the Guild Lord was on the NPC team everytime the GL took damage. ~Izzy @-&#39; 06:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Potential change to VoD debuff effect
In regards to the thought about changing VoD's debuff from health to healing - I dislike the idea, since it makes teams that carry heavy shutdown even more powerful at VoD - since they don't have to do as much healing in the first place. Especially while the current hex meta stands as-is, I'd say anything which provides shutdown teams with even more advantages is a bad thing. (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 04:11, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd rather see reduced health than reduced healing. I'd also like to see the bonus to direct damage removed, as it historically made hexes/damage-over-time weaker at VOD. I'm skeptical that you really even need this VOD shout at all. I don't see why the game isn't going to come to a close anyway. The game isn't 45 mins long anymore, balance is different, and it doesn't really seem necessary to me. I'm not sure about the 45/60/75 sec times (if they are spaced far enough apart). 18 min vod sounds a touch early to me. Think I would have to play it, TBH. --Black mischief 09:38, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Reduced healing would take away some of the huge advantage that spikey damage characters have at VoD and strengthen degen/regen skills though. I think the bonus damage is good because it helps to force the game to end. --TimeToGetIntense 10:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The point of the the buff is to stop stalemates, but it has downsides, I don't like how much it helps high defense teams get enough damage to start getting kills, the main thing I'm worried about with removing the health is how strong NPC's become. ~Izzy @-&#39; 19:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that some sort of debuff needs to hit at VoD to break stalemates, but I don't think it needs to be nearly as strong as it currently is. Instead of two effects I'd think that only one is needed, and that one should probably be max health reduction to be somewhat equitable across builds.  I think a more important change would be an update to the Guild Lord AI that would make the two home in on each other at VoD to start duking it out in melee.  Once the Lords engage in melee, or even just one of them, the game tends to end pretty quickly from all of the defensive resources being diverted to that battle.  If you moved the VoD pressure from the shout to the Lord fight, you should be able to maintain the lethality of VoD without as many game-altering mechanics. -Ensign 21:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I really like this idea, as it makes active protting much more important than merely bringing red bars up, and it gives some leeway to protting as well. From a monk's standpoint, it makes it so the team who has the most aware players can win, as opposed to which team has the Melandru's dervish that luckily crits for 200 with deep wound and instakills. Not sure if this made sense, but this does seem to raise the importance of both pre and post-kiting. Holymasamune 21:46, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It would seem to make LoD a lot less powerful. If you can negate the NPCs damage by getting aggro on one person, and protting up then then the healing isnt too much of a problem, becuase your not getting a great deal of party wide pressure. If NPCs are hitting all over your party I think it would be more or less impossible to stay up for very long.

I agree that making it reduce haling is not the answer. If you think about it, that completely one sides the battle for either a team with more NPC's, or a aoe damage. You cant heal through aoe dmg if your healing is gone. Maybe just lowering the amount of health defecate and dmg bonus would be enough in my opinion. I still want them there at VoD, just not as harsh. Kind of like a slight nerf to the VoD shout lol. I also thought it was fun when you could tactically avoid getting the VoD shout on you, which is now impossible because its a skill.

No more ganking
Unless you kill all the npcs in their base pre vod its now impossible to gank the lord as that 5 minute window at 20minutes is reduced to what 20 seconds and then the time to get to the stand. Not sure if this is a good thing or not as ganking is something you can do to bring the fight to them if they had a huge npc advantage so you could fight them without their npcs. 87.194.104.90 11:41, 8 August 2007 (UTC)Burton


 * You actually have more then that, beacuse the last wave gets at the stand at 19:15, they leave a bit eailier, and the GL doesn't start walking until 20. Which means you have more then a min before he actually walks, and it takes him all most 30s-60s to walk depending on the maps. Which leaves plenty of time for ganks, what you can't do is fight at the stand lose and then go for a gank. ~Izzy @-&#39; 19:31, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This isn't enough time. Needs to be at least 2 minutes between time GL walks and last NPC leaving base. --Black mischief 00:06, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Catapults breaking at VoD
Currently I stopped using Cata maps in AT's but I'm also thinking about making the cat stop working at VoD, Thoughts? ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:45, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Catas mostly seal fates in VoD. Personally I loath them. But it's hard to say what impact it will have considering the new pathways. You speak of 3 different paths. Does that mean, the back door will be used by the NPCs or where's the difference?
 * I think that's a good idea. Catapults randomness at VoD is bad and can totally determine the outcome of a game. It's also kinda lame that you can totally turn around a big NPC advantage with one lucky shot. Catapults tend to be pretty nice strategic tools during the match, cutting off retreats and controlling splits, etc. but they have too much weight at VoD. If you break them just at VoD, it would make those cata map much more interesting again (as long as the catas are balanced on both sides during the game though. Iirc in some maps it's much easier for one team than the other to avoid cata shots, and that's bad all game) Patccmoi 20:54, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No they take the same path they used to before, but instead all walking on 1 line, they walk on 3 lines.

Old        New ______   ______           aaaaaa aaaaa    bbbbbb cccccc -    --

Fear my ACII art :) ~Izzy @-&#39; 21:29, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * As a counterpoint, if the NPC walkout at VoD is staggered sufficiently the advantage from the catapults is largely minimized. They might downgrade from instant game winners to interesting strategic tools depending on how the new movement works.  How much of an advantage is a losing team looking at getting with the catapult if they can only get 1/3 of the NPCs with a lucky catapult shot? -Ensign 21:30, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * All right, possible scenario: pressure team vs. spike team. Spikes get it's job done while not yealing to the pressure. They would normally face a win. But it's a cata map. If they don't have enough overall DP on the enemy, they might still be swapt away in VoD due to the VoD direct damage buff. Now, if the catas are working in VoD, one retreat will seal them. If they don't work any more, they might still face a chance. Therefor I vote for the disabling of catas in VoD as it would balance things out a bit more between pressure and spikes, not considering any NPCs ofc. --Ineluki 21:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe you could make catas destroyable somehow. Currently, once a team controls the other teams catapult, they are very limited in their options. 87.234.139.10

I dont think making cats fail at VoD is the best option. I agree with Ensign here, in order to really make use of the cat with the proposed changes you need to launch it several times over a long period of time, during VoD, with a whole team and NPCs pounding you. Add in the fact that repairing the catapult requires you to either pressure a team back so they cant run flags, forgo a flag run, or employ 2 flag runners and I think the Cat is already diminished in value. If it breaks at VoD it would seem useless to me. If any change to the catapults is made, I think it should be the random factor. Have the projectile land in the same place after the same amount of time every time. After playing 20 mins of hard fighting rolling a dice to win or lose seems harsh.

Why not have exactly one minute between waves of NPC's and then the Guild Lord? Joe
 * Then you have 3 separate fights rather then 1 big one that just slowly gets bigger. ~Izzy @-&#39; 21:11, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Changing VoD buff from reducing health, to reduce healing
(Merged to above section Potential change to VoD debuff effect.)

Major VoD bug
A friend of mine told me that his team is dealing double damage to the Guild Lord at vod - they sent 2 people for a gank at 19:00 and killed the lord in under ten seconds, dealing huge amounts of damage. Is that supposed to happen? - Auron 03:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah this has been fixed shortly after the update. It was a bug the guild lord was checking if he was on the NPC team instead of if his attack was on the NPC team. Should be fixed now. ~Izzy @-&#39; 06:02, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

VoD and Fire
I think on the fire isle the Guild Lord for the away team may not be updated. Had a match where no one agroed their lord and we didn't even begin to see him until around the 22 mark. They were busy trying to slow our lord most of the time, our lord was slowed quite a bit, but still beat their lord to the waiting point by a lot. Might want to look into it. -Warskull 03:44, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Bodyguard
Not sure if this has anything to do with the VoD changes and pathing or if it was just random, but the home team bodyguard was pulled all the way out of our base by one guy in one match, they basically pwned him at the stand on imperial isle. I havent tested this again, but it was pretty stupid.--TheLordOfBlah 04:35, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Today on obs (one of the SpNV matches) one of the bodyguards pulled about halfway into the base on Druid's Isle. Just an FYI - I've heard of vengeful Bodyguards before, but this is my first time seeing one.  Almost like a bull seeing red. ~Seef II &lt;☎|→&gt; 04:31, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Isnt this because npcs dont lose agro at vod unless you have a speed boost.87.194.104.90 09:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)Burton