Talk:Grenth's Balance

http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-327.html for the trivia --Cursed Angel  16:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Chiron...was it a god, or was it a NPC like Verata? Well, but abov this, i found out that Mesmers seemingly should get a special skill type: "Trance". (that was for Mantra of Recall). —Zerpha[[Image:UserZerpha The Improver sig.png|talk]] The Improver 17:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiron some centaur thing in greek mytology, couldn't find any npc or anything at all that had to do with the name in guild wars, and for the trance thing i saw something about them being maintained, like the monk enchantments. --Cursed Angel [[Image:User_Cursed_Angel_Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 17:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I wonder that that actually there's no Centaur boss named Chiron. Maybe they wanted to add it to the story and then removed it again... —Zerpha[[Image:UserZerpha The Improver sig.png|talk]] The Improver 18:48, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * might the forum poster have spelled the skill name incorrectly? instead of "chiron" it would be charon. that would at least be meaningful. -- VVong | BA 14:07, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I received this skill during Wintersday from the Greatest Snowman Ever Quest from Grentchs Magnus.64.235.142.187 18:01, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I knoe i am a bit late but the skill says CHARON'S not CHIRON'S balance.95.180.76.188 13:10, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Boss thingy
Since Shiro, and I guess all end-game bosses, have LARGE amounts of Health, this skill is very powerful against them.

how does this work with a 55? do you still remove health if your bar is at full but you still have less health than them? Coruskane 20:30, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * If you have 55 hp and ur foe... say 480, he gets to 55 hp too. Works in opposite way also. Ninjas In The Sky 12:35, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
 * This isn't how the skill works at all. Read the description carefully - if your opponent has more health, you gain half the difference, up to your maximum health. So, in the above example, say you're a 55 monk (55/55hp) up against a foe with 480hp. You use GB; because it's capped by your max health, you don't gain anything. Now, the second half of the skill kicks in. Your foe loses an equal amount. Since you gained nothing, your opponent loses nothing.
 * Now, let's say you're at 200/400 health, and your opponent is at 1000. You GB, and gain 200 health (half the difference, but capped at your maximum health). Because you gained 200 health (putting you at 400), your opponent also loses 200 health, putting him at 800. It's also worth noting that this technically isn't even life stealing; the skill causes direct life gain and life loss. I hope this explanation helps someone. --SoraMitsukai 08:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought it said, HALF of the Difference. Halogod35 03:51, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Nvm, I just tested this skill, I get it now. -.-;; Halogod35 03:59, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Protective Spirit et al
Quick question: since this is life loss, does protective spirit prevent the damage done to your opponent? If it does, does it affect your own life gain at all?
 * Life loss isn't damage, and rips right through PS and similar enchants that trigger on damage. Thus, your life gain isn't otherwise affected. This skill is highly underrated, in my opinion. --SoraMitsukai 20:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * under rated b/c peeps dont get that if u use it on some 1 w/ lower health than you, you get pwned instead, which is when peeps r liek "spike time".--I r ogre 01:36, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Its underrated because it's very impractical in PvP. You have to get yourself at low amounts of health to get the best from this skill, which means you're probably gonna get spiked a lot or pressured to death. No matter what happens, your monks will hate you. --[[Image: User_Ezekial_Riddle_sig.jpg|Talk]] Riddle 02:58, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * And say you are at 100/600hp and your target is at 600/600hp, pretty much best case scenario for most pvp targets, in the end you will both be at 350/600hp, but you've put yourself at HUGE risk by letting yourself get down to 100/600, and you're still just as vulnerable as the person you cast it on. It might be good for a little fun against a defy pain tank, where you can do a huge amount of damage that gets past his mitigation, and actually heal yourself up to full health, but there are plenty of ways to counter a defy pain tank, and when was the last time one did more than be an annoyance in PvP? Necromas 01:20, 20 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Just thought i'd go ahead and add to this since i've been using it in PvP alot. I'm pretty sure its 1/2 and not 1/4 as it says. If a R savage shots me as i cast, he will ussually get the rupt. Savage is 1/2 and 1/4 should beat it. I've tested with a few different bows and ranger builds, sometimes the cast gets off but its literally 50/50. Try it in pvp for yourself and see.JunoNH 14:56, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Buff?
I think description should be reversed to something like: "Your target loses Health equal to half the difference between you and target, You gain the same amount of health. If this foe has less Health than you, you lose Health equal to half the difference." This way the skill will do a good amount of dmg --Aartist21 11:33, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It works the way it does so its not insanely over-powered. It could possibly use a function change as I never see it used anywhere, but to remove the restriction would break the skill. I was thinking how interesting it would be if this were a hex that if the victim died while affected, one of the caster's allies would be resurrected. But that would take some serious tweaking to prevent it from being insanely unbalanced too. Guildwarsrunner 04:32, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Only problem is that since it's named grenth's BALANCE it should be:If target foe dies while under the effects of this hex, a random member of your party/you lose all health. Cow 14:43, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Then it could be something like "Enchantment Spell. If target ally dies while under the effects of this enchantment: A) one random foe losses health equal to that ally's maximum health, B) all foes within earshot loose health equal to that ally's maximum health, distributed evenly among all foes."--AtzaMan 09:51, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

55?
What if someone with lots of health uses it against a 55? StimpsonJKat 19:33, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If this foe has less Health than you, you lose half the difference, and that foe gains an equal amount. <-that -- snog  rat [[Image:User Snograt signature.png]] 12:40, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

im bad at math
so if i use this at 400 of 600 health, against mallyx who has 3000 of 4000 health... what happens? I think he loses 200 health right? would that be good? lol.
 * Correct, half the difference would be (3000 - 400)/2 = 1300, but you can only gain up to your maximum health, so the health gain is limited to 200, and since the foe loses an equal amount, they would only lose 200. Necromas 01:12, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

would be good if?
could this be an ok skill if you were to have a hi heath tank that takes a lot of dmg tell almost death then uses on a boss with hi heath to do alot of dmg and gain heath back? Auren X 18:37, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, some builds designed for killing foes such as Rotscale utilize tanks using Grenth's Balance because they are able to steal such a large amount of health. – Emmett  04:42, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Dhuum
In theory, shouldn't this do a ridiculous amount of damage to Dhuum?
 * in theory, yes. In theory, it would also be useless everywhere else in Underworld. NuVII  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] 14:19, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

It only does damage up to your max hit points, despite what concise skill description says. So no, it's useless.--92.10.96.224 23:50, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, both skill descriptions already states that your opponent only loses health up to the amount you gained, so, really there's no dispute in the first place. Pika Fan 23:53, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but with any other skill, you can be healed by an amount over your max health. This skill gives you the exact amount you need. - Cymril 01:16, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Just use symbiosis and tons of enchants plus sacrifice. Bam huge spike to dhuum in theory

BUG????
Took this skill to use against Mallyx. During the waves of margonites and Titans prior to fighting Mallyx, Every time i use grenths balance,  big yellow zeros come up.. The only time it worked was wehn i had more health than the foe and it took health away from me.!!

How can the result be ZERO.? There is no way we have the exact same health.--173.81.33.229 05:28, 20 February 2010 (UTC)Morbid Optics


 * Would you get a zero if you are at full health? You would not have gained any life so your foe would not lose any health. Cruznik 12:18, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Usage
I find this skill works fairly well when you have a bar full of Blood Magic and Curses sacrifice spells. Sacrifice your HP away... then steal a bunch from a nearby foe. Working on making a build that revolves around this. Any suggestions? 99.241.34.49 13:46, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Late post but ive been using something with barbed signet signet of agony to sac yourself down and use augury of death followed by grenths balance to get them to under 50% then use disrupting dagger to trigger deep wound then iron palm and unholy feast to finish them its quite fun if a tad impractical 82.42.236.161 12:00, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds decent for RA, and if it's fun it's fun :) User A F K When Needed Signature Icon.jpg A F K  When  Needed 14:00, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * My favorite usage of this is Me/N with 16 Illusion Magic and Illusion of Weakness set to bring my Health down to 2, along with some degen and armor stances and heals to make up for my lack of maximum Health when not enchanted with IoW. -~=Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png (τѧιк)  14:59, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:N/W_Grenth%27s_Balance

Grenth's Balance Measuring
I have to say that GB doesnt measure health in hit points, but in PERCENTS - % - for those who don't know ... I mean, If you are at 480/480 for example, and your foe is 1000/1000 or 100/100 - anyway, at full health, BOTH VALUES are 0. You dont lose, he doesnt lose. Even if you are at 240/480 and he 50(0)/100(0), the same thing comes here. GB lookes not at hit points, but at HEALTH PERCENT. Any health percent you have and the foe has the same percent, both values you see on the screen (those yellow numbers for those who dont know) equal 0. Please note that if this is the first talk about this subject. It's pretty important.Cristianc
 * The above is not true. Most likely extrapolated from a single data point (no effect from max. health against a target with greater health) without noticing the "up to your maximum Health" clause, which wouldn't even make sense if it were percentage. -~=Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png (τѧιк)  01:06, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Try and see. if you use GB against a full-health foe and you are too at full health, you'll see he doesn't lose anything, as well as you.Cristianc

"...you gain half the difference (up to your maximum Health)..." This has already been said. If you're already at maximum health, then you're not going to gain any health. If you don't gain any, then your target doesn't lose any. User:Akujin
 * Picture Grenth's Balance as if there were two cups. When you cast Grenth's Balance, you transfer water from one cup to another.  The sum of water in both cups must remain constant.
 * Now, envision your cup as having 400 units of health with a maximum capacity of 500 units. Your opponent's cup has 1000 units of health with a maximum capacity of 1000.  When you cast Grenth's Balance, the difference between the two values is 600 units, so you may transfer up to 300 units of health between the two cups.  You begin to pour from your opponent's cup, which has the greater amount, into your own.  100 units later, your cup is full. You can't hold anymore, so you can't take anymore.  Thus, on casting Grenth's Balance, you only transfer 100 health in this situation.  Hence, when the player with less health is at maximum health, they have no capacity remaining to steal any life, as in your example.
 * Alternately, you might conceptualize it as;
 * MaxHealthStolen = (CurrentHealthA - CurrentHealthB)/2
 * If MaxHealthStolen < 0
 * If MaxHealthStolen ≤ MaxHealthA - CurrentHealthA,
 * Then HealthStolen = MaxHealthStolen
 * Else HealthStolen = MaxHealthA - CurrentHealthA
 * If MaxHealthStolen > 0,
 * If MaxHealthStolen ≤ MaxHealthB - CurrentHealthB,
 * Then HealthStolen = MaxHealthStolen
 * Else HealthStolen = MaxHealthB - CurrentHealthB
 * If MaxHealthStolen1 = 0,
 * Then HealthStolen = 0
 * Which is a lot simpler than it may appear. MA Anathe 20:16, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Then HealthStolen = 0
 * Which is a lot simpler than it may appear. MA Anathe 20:16, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Oooh, now I get it. They should've specified this in the concise skill description, not only in the long one. Many players choose to read concise instead of normal description...Am I right ? I suggest a change in the concise descr. through an update. P.S. - Sry for the initial problem... |:) CristianC

Using in PvP
when under the effects of backfire, does the life steal INCLUDE the hp you will lose when backfire has its effect, or not?

for example, say im hexed with backfire and i have 200 hp, and the enemy has 600hp, and the backfire will cause a loss of 100hp, will i steal 200hp or 250hp?

i understand the dmg will be simultanious with your cast, as sometimes you cast it when your low and do alot of dmg, enough to steal over the amount of the backfire, yet die anyway from it. this leads me to believe you cause dmg before you recover hp (literally a fraction of a second) and thats why your hp drops suddenly, right before you recover it.JunoNH 13:38, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Grenth's Balance does not steal life. Yes, the amount of life gain and life loss does take Backfire, Visions of Regret, Soul Leech, etc. into the equation.
 * You would cause 250 health gain/loss up to your maximum health in your Backfire example.
 * Like any spell cast through Backfire, the spell is cast regardless of whether you die from Backfire, but the spell effects come afterward. When casting Grenth's Balance kills you, you will remove half of your target's current health, but you cannot gain that health because you are dead before any part of the spell takes effect (which is why it cuts half of their health, because you have 0 health; it still won't cut off more health than your maximum health). I hope that makes sense. –~=Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png (τѧιк)  &larr;&hearts;– 14:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Life gain?
Is the positive effect life gain or heal?
 * It is health gain. (Please remember to sign your posts) --Manassas  [[File: User Manassas Mannysig.png]] 14:06, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Hero use: simply noteworthy? or anomalous
Everyone seems to agree that the hero AI uses Grenth's Balance exactly when they shouldn't: when the target health is low. The question is whether that constitutes anomalous or reasonably expected behavior. (There have been several recent edits/RVs on this point.) Can we come to some sort of agreement before we edit that particular bullet again? — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 06:04, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * No, the original note said that the AI uses Grenth's Balance on foes with high health. At some point, the note was re-written and then re-written again, completely reversing its meaning. It's noteworthy, but it's also an anomaly because the AI tends to use skills on targets with low health. It is intended, but it's the exception to the rule. –~=Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png (τѧιк)  &larr;&hearts;– 06:41, 11 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure I follow. I think you said: the AI generally prioritizes low health targets and it doesn't change the priority for Grenth's Balance (even though it should). So, the hero behavior is expected, but wrong. Or are you saying something different? — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 07:14, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm saying that the meaning was lost in translation, as by telephone. The behavior is expected, but is still anomalous. –~=Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png (τѧιк)  &larr;&hearts;– 00:14, 12 February 2011 (UTC)


 * That's where I'm losing you: expected behavior is the opposite of anomalous behavior. Do you mean that the AI is choosing the wrong targets (incorrect behavior), but that is consistent with the AI for other skills (expected)? — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 00:40, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The AI is choosing the correct targets because it chooses the exact opposite target (health-wise) that it would choose for every other skill. <font color="#0AA">–~=<font color="#0AA">Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png <font color="#0AA">(τѧιк)  &larr;&hearts;– 03:56, 12 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Then perhaps we should just remove the note. The AI is doing what it should be doing; any note seems to be more confusing than illuminating. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 04:30, 12 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Because it's an anomaly. :P The AI normally chooses targets with low health, so one might think GB is an utterly terrible option for a hero's elite unless they know that GB is the exception to the rule. A note stating that the AI uses GB properly is useful, considering the AI's track record of using many "unique" skills very badly. <font color="#0AA">–~=<font color="#0AA">Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png <font color="#0AA">(τѧιк)  &larr;&hearts;– 05:13, 12 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmmn. I don't see it, but I concede that others might find it important. So, let's try a phrasing that avoids calling it an anomaly or comparing it to what the AI does with other skills, something like, Simple, gets the idea across, and avoids guessing what people are going to expect. Does that work for you?  — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 06:09, 12 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Yep, that sounds good. I'll update the page appropriately. <font color="#0AA">–~=<font color="#0AA">Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png <font color="#0AA">(τѧιк)  &larr;&hearts;– 19:07, 12 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Cool. Thanks for updating. And thanks for taking the time to explain. I was confused by the confusing confusion. ;-)


 * No problem. Thanks for bringing the question up. Questioning leads to improvement. :D <font color="#0AA">–~=<font color="#0AA">Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png <font color="#0AA">(τѧιк)  &larr;&hearts;– 20:11, 12 February 2011 (UTC)