Feedback talk:User/Talamare/Healing Prayers Revamp

I think this would balance pretty much every skill in Healing Prayers, making them all extremely usable, anyone disagree with any of it? Also I cant think of the perfect suggestion for Heal Area Talamare 06:16, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Except Healer's Boon+Orison of Healing+Channeling+HA=Uber Healing--98.238.169.189 07:37, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * ok bumped the recharge to 1 second Talamare 07:55, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * sigh,,, used math and determined there isnt much difference between no recharge and 1 second recharge because of the natural after cast (only 0.25), so increased orison to 2 seconds Talamare 08:03, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I would highly recommend splitting each skill suggestion into its own page. Developers don't want to look through long lists of stuff to find what they're looking for. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 08:19, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Do they like looking at 15 different pages each with about 2-3 lines of text? Its not that I mind splitting but to me it seems a bit more pain in the ass to look at each diff page, out of curiosity did they give you that info or are you assuming Talamare 08:22, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Like Shard said, if they're looking for ideas for one skill, they won't ever see this page at all. Also, you're buffing all healing prayers, which are not the nature of the problem. Balance is a state of mind. The nerf to Patient Spirit would have made it balanced, if your mind is in the state of two years ago. My point was that since damage wasn't touched, it was a mistake, because it cripples healing further. The problem is not that heals are too low, it's that damage is too high. Increasing heals like this will just make the population whine and beg for higher damage on their skills because they can't steamroll monks as easily as they want to, which is exactly what Anet will do the next month. This would just introduce more power creep, you need healing to stay where it is at while you balance damage accordingly, which was the idea behind my page on patient spirit. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 10:06, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Youre contradicting yourself then, you say you want to revert PS, which will return it to being the absolute best healing prayer skill ever, but we absolutely MUST NOT bring the other healing prayer skills inline... it doesnt make sense, I dont know if you actually looked thru my suggestion but I made every healing prayer skill exactly the same efficient/powerful as patient spirit, but you say its a bad idea... You can either support that other healing prayers need to be brought in line and revert PS... or be against that every healing prayer skill needs to be brought in line and do not revert PS...... Saying that every other healing prayer skill needs to be weak while PS gets reverted and stays godly powerful is illogical Talamare 10:16, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * PS was not any more godly powerful than damage, it wasn't even close. Reverting PS and buffing every single healing prayers skill is not synonymous. You think that PS needed a nerf, and then you want to turn around and buff every single healing prayers skill to be just like it? Good thinking. PS needs a revert because damage is high. Every single healing prayers spell doesn't need a buff because of that, that just makes more power creep. The idea behind my suggestion was to return things to where they were, and then move to balance damage, then healing, not insanely buff healing/make it prot and a million other things. You can't nerf healing, and not touch damage, it cripples healing, like what Anet has done. You also can't buff all healing, and not touch damage, it cripples damage, like you have done. It also creates power creep. I haven't contradicted myself, you just aren't getting the point. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 10:30, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No, You just keep changing the argument to make it illogical... You want to revert PS to being far stronger then other healing skills because damage is high but you must not touch other healing skills to be equivalent to PS... so then we are back to using only PS because every other healing skill is useless, If you revert PS and balance heal skills at the same time, they are all as strong as PS and you can freely pick between them which would mean healing in general is roughly how it was before PS was nerf except you can choose which heal you want to use, with none of them being more or less effective then the next


 * Youre right that my suggestion is power creeping, because PS is over powered compared to other heal skills, tho my suggestion can easily be fixed to the new version of PS by adding 1 recharge to most of the suggestions Talamare 10:48, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You've completely missed the point again. You think that if you buff all those skills, players are only going to carry one? I'll say it again, and it says it on my PS suggestion page, the idea is just an intermediary until damage is balanced. You, however, want to ignore balance completely and buff all heals, thinking that players will choose between PS and only one of them. This is not the case. I will say it again, your idea is bad because all you're doing is mindlessly buffing healing prayers, and not touching damage, with the same idea Anet has. If you hadn't noticed, Anet's balance ideas tend to fail completely, maybe you should start thinking outside their box. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 19:19, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You cant suggestion a balance for every problem in the game with 1 post, not to mention I doubt 1 person could make the game absolutely perfect... Players now can freely use extra heals, hell D-Kiss was always stronger then PS... just unused because of the lack of being able to self cast, and even if players bring a bar with only heals, protting reduces the damage far far more then a heal does at redbarring after...


 * Lets me show the logic to your PS suggestion
 * "Needs a full revert, it was not OP in any way,"


 * Wrong, its OP compared to other heal skills
 * "You cannot nerf one of the only three heals exclusively used in the game"


 * The point of my suggestion is to remove the fact its "exclusively used"
 * "when you consider just how OP every single source of damage in the game is.//without nerfing damage considerably"


 * Its bad balance to leave a "crutch" behind to deal with something, and you know very well that anet is slow to nerf... making this a crutch just makes this skill even more exclusively used... hell why dont we make Orison the obvious crutch, go go bump its heal to 120, and reduce the cast time to make it un-interrupt-able, You are simply asking for a crutch, any crutch till damage gets nerfed, so anything would work fine, right?


 * Finally
 * the power creeping aspect can easily be removed, by balancing the heals towards the new PS
 * the power creeping aspect can easily be removed, by balancing the heals towards the new PS

Talamare 23:32, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You're completely missing the point. You have not taken in anything I have said. You think that the old PS was powerful? Only if you're thinking in terms of two years ago. Also, if you think it's OP, you probably shouldn't balance all other healing skills according to it. It was NOT overpowered when compared to damage in the current meta. There is no other way for me to say that. I'm probably just going to start ignoring you, because wherever you go, you just harp on about the same thing, without making any points whatsoever, and contradicting yourself in everything you say. Believe whatever you want, but your idea of buffing every healing prayers skill is bad, it creates more power creep. My idea holds power creep where it currently is, and gives room to go in and balance. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 01:09, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Sigh, how many times do I have to repeat it for you - Patient spirit is OP  COMPARED TO OTHER HEALING PRAYER SKILLS , How many times have I repeated that, Patient spirit is by far stronger then  OTHER HEALING PRAYER SKILLS , Im not saying its strong or weak compared to damage, Im saying its hellishly stronger then  OTHER HEALING PRAYER SKILLS  Talamare 01:22, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Then your idea is even more FUBAR than before, becase you never even took into account damage. You can't balanced the game by looking at only healing or only damage, that's what Anet tries to do, and look how it turns out. Pika Fan is 100% correct. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 01:24, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * They both should be taken into account at some point, but not at every point... You need to balance Healing in general towards damage and individual skills towards each other Talamare 01:29, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No, they should be taken into account at every single tweak. You have to look at all angles every time you change anything. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 02:02, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That is true Talamare 02:18, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Alright I thought of the easiest way to explain it to


 * Heal A heals for 200
 * Heal B heals for 100


 * Damage currently does 200


 * So Heal A is balanced compared to damage
 * However Heal A is also over powered compared to Heal B Talamare 02:27, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You can't just make it that simple. Also, you're balancing healing with damage, not other healing. Get offensive/defensive balance first, then worry about the minor stuff like what heal is more powerful than another. Also, functionality has a lot to do with that, not just raw healing. -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig.png|19px]] 02:35, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes the true problem is 100x more complex, however the base problem is roughly that simple Talamare 02:51, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

HB
The quick max heal output of each skill in 15 seconds while under the effect of healers boon, assumes fully met conditions, and the skill being used on recharge (which means also assumes infinite energy)


 * 1440 - orison 0 recharge - 60 energy used
 * 1200 - orison 1 recharge - 50 energy used
 * 1200 - Heal Other - 33.3 energy used
 * 1157 - dwayna kiss - 21.4 energy used
 * 864 - patient spirit - 24 energy used
 * 800 - ethereal light - 22.2 energy used
 * 771 - heal whisper/words of comfort - 21.4 energy used
 * 757 - orison 2 recharge, 3/4 cast - 31.5 energy used
 * 720 - orison 2 recharge - 30 energy used


 * Orison is listed 4x because I was trying to find the right way to balance orison

Talamare 12:19, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Splitting
Right now, Bathory is splitting his/her pages, so there's a bug surge of "new page" spam. Nobody at arenanet directly told me it would be easier to have different suggestions for different skills, but that's what the point of the feedback space is for. If your changes are pretty short and manageable, and you think it's readable and organized, then by all means, keep this page. It's really up to you, I was just making a suggestion of how I would do it. I'll start commenting on some of your ideas soon. ~Shard  01:14, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

This revamp
defies all balance and logic. The part where you said PS is balanced because you buffed all other healing prayers skills made me laugh so hard. Now I get why you said PS was OPed and needed to be nerfed - because you thought a skill being "balanced" has everything to do with the power level of other skills with the same attribute. You think that just because PS is the only viable healing skill it is OPed.

Please, stop embarrassing yourself. Pika Fan 01:19, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes actually I think if its the only viable healing skill in an attribute its OP, and Yes I think balance means that all other skills in an attribute needs to be equally viable, not just 1 skill is clearly better then the rest,,, no I am not saying PS is OP as a whole, Im saying its OP compared to other skills in its attribute, which means that either the other skills need to be balance towards the strongest, or the strongest needs to be weakened to be balanced towards the weaker... however in this case most of the healing prayer skills are trash anyways, so I figure it would be better to balance towards the stronger


 * If people think PS is OP overall (not when only compared to other healing prayers), then I will suggest a small nerf to PS, then suggest to balance other healing prayer skill to the new weakened PS Talamare 01:28, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll make some quick notes here.
 * Dwayna's Kiss - The amount you gain from it currently drops off significantly after 3 or 4 enchantments/hexes (it's rare to have more than that unless vs hexway). This change really doesn't do anything except in extreme cases.
 * Gift of Health - No. For obvious reasons, this skill's main use is on prot monks (or smite monks), who shouldn't have access to a 120+ heal.
 * Ribbon definitely needs a buff, but the smart heal would be a little too much. I'd say take the 90% bit out.
 * Healing Seed - Meh, I personally prefer the long cast and the giant heals. Monks already have SoA, which would be better than this.
 * Supportive Spirit - well done, but needs more recharge.
 * I must be reading a different version of the page than Pika, because I didn't see anything that defies all balance and logic. Then again, I did just come from a page that suggested shattering assault do +100 damage total. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 01:32, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Removed the gift suggestion completely... Healing Seed I made it similar to shielding hands, but Im not sure if thats best... supportive spirit is balanced similar to brace yourself and aura of stability Talamare 01:39, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * @Shard First, Talamare said PS was overpowered and hence needed to be nerfed. Then he/she suggests all other healing prayer spells be buffed, and declares that, hey, PS is no longer OPed because all other healing prayer spells are brought up to the level of pre-nerf PS, and thus reverts the nerf. Does that make sense? No.
 * @Talamare Please take a course in game mechanics and balance. Really, I am not joking. You are comparing defensive skills to other defensive skills, while you totally overlook the fact that defensive skills should also be compared to offensive skills. Since damage is definitely OPed(look at hexes, WS, SF and all the broken skills in the game), and patient is the only viable non-elite red bar topper, it just means the other healing prayer skills are UPed. If you still don't understand, just reply, and I will illustrate using paint. Pika Fan 05:10, 21 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually the picture is pretty correct what I mean(tho I wish it wasnt so massive), except I dont 100% think PS needed a nerf, just that it needed to be brought in line with other heal skills... whether that meant buffing other heal skills or nerfing PS... balancing the heals to each other is just as important as balancing them towards damage, except balancing healing in general to damage is extremely hard to do and would probably involve changing nearly every single skill in the game... which is far beyond the scope of this 1 suggestion

- Thats the point of this suggestion, to make other healing spells "viable non-elite red bar topper" Talamare 06:04, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Its extremely simple so I dont understand why you guys are intentionally making it so difficult - "patient is the only viable non-elite red bar topper"
 * There are multiple levels of balance, and to be perfectly balanced all levels must be balanced, heals must be balanced to each other (the point of this suggestion) and it must be balanced towards damage... If only 1 heal is near being balanced towards damage while all other are useless then you still havent achieved balance Talamare 06:07, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 90% of all healing prayers spells are really underpowered compared to damage, and need to get a buff. That is a the issue here, where both Talamare and Pika agree on. Whether Patient Spirit was overpowered compared to other healing skills is not the point because now it is just as underpowered as the rest or the healing prayers line, and should be rebalanced along with them. As for Gift, it is a nice to have around for doing HM mission in areas with limited party space like Nolani. Koda Kumi [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_UT.jpeg‎|19px]] talk 15:00, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Healing Ribbon vs Healing Ring

 * Compared to Healing Ring, the only difference is in the area and adjacent. I know the two radius diameters are very different, but it would seem Healing Ring would be superior to Healing Ribbon in every way if you went with the 5 energy version of HR. On the note of HR, I'm still a little "meh" about taking either version...
 * I'll post suggestions when I'm awake enough to think them up.
 * Thanks,
 * Curin Derwin 07:40, 15 December 2009 (UTC)