Talk:Shadow Form/Archive 2

Maintanable
Is it still maintainable with 16 SA? 67.82.179.27 04:28, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I think so. It's tight, but I'm pretty sure it's manageable. I think the main purpose of the nerf is that you need to spend that 30 energy more often, you're much more likely to have it recharged, but not be able to afford it. --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  04:33, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

This still works for raptor farming or vaettir farming, but it takes a big energy hit. Have 16 in Shadow Arts on your mask, runes of attunement, and radiant insignia on all other parts of the armor, and a +20% enchanted wep and it still works fine. Of course, having r10 in asuran title gives you another +15 energy. Good for us pro farmers, but will lessen the competition from the newer players. Maybe ele swords will make a comeback, along with an increased price for ectos.KDarkchylde 09:37, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Bye Bye Perma
Sorry i had to say it... not that i ever perma'd anywho... Ectos will go up now SabreWolf 04:39, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This is still perfectly maintainable. Speed will never win out over (lack of) skill. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 04:41, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * At 16 Shadow Arts, you can maintain it with about two seconds to spare. No big deal, doesn't kill Perma.
 * However, it's a hit to the energy; you've got to shell out that thirty energy to refresh it quicker now. You regain the thirty energy in the time it takes to recharge, but if you're using other spells in there as well, it's going to be tight. E-management skills are pretty much going to be standard now, I think, otherwise you're going to be watching SF run out while your energy regens quite often. And I think that's actually a decent nerf this time; they don't kill it, just make it harder. --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  04:49, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ye, not killing maintainable invincibility is a decent nerf. -[[Image:User Auron csig.png]] Auron  04:50, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The fact that this skill didn't get a Functionality changed to... makes me question the usage of "nerf". Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 04:52, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Do I sense sarcasm, Auron? --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  04:54, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * perma, meet ursan. Ursan, perma. And yes, I know it's still perma, but it sucks now. --67.86.84.167 19:48, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * you can pretty much say goodbye:
 * A/E: the energy cost to use perma(30e) is the exact amount of energy u get from e-regen (1.33*23.16~=30e), u can use zealos weapon for extra energy but if u are running smite crawlers SoJ pwn your ass...
 * and im not even talking about the new improved, high HP, long range Mindblade that will take u hours to farm...
 * A/Me: perma cycle cost u 50e and takes ~43.75sec so u can still make it and have extra 8e recharged but cmon ppl what can u do with 8e using A/Me build?


 * A/ME is doable as a Perma-Cryer, with the following: Shadow Form, Arcane Echo, Deadly Paradox, Channeling, Spirit of Failure, Cry of Pain, Ether Nightmare, and Radiation or Air of Superiority. 3+1 Deadly Arts, 12+1+3 Shadow Arts, 12 Inspiration. Standard 20% enchant set, high energy set, fortitude set, 20/40 sets, etc apply. This is an example. 207.255.164.193 22:17, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah but no ectos...
 * The only reason shadow form was nerfed in the first place was because people were crying to arena net about there stacks of duped ectos not being worth as much
 * The only reason Shadow Form exists is because ANet is socialist and wants everyone to be able to have ectos cheaply and easily. But, recently they have had some shifts in the administration, so they lean more conservative now; thus the change so that only an Assassin primary can really use Shadow Form now. "Spread the wealth" just wasn't what the voters wanted, apparently. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 00:06, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ^^^ Lol, wow ^^^ Blood Red Giant 00:25, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You can use some fire magic for damage with GolE and Attune, so you will even gain a bit energy in the meantime i dont know why perma should be dead. 95.119.127.189 12:42, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Still Functional
Perma Shadow Form is still completely possible. It now just requires one more thing: a zealous weapon (preferably daggers) in a second weapon set. Cast Shadow Form, then press the corresponding F button to switch to the zealous weapon for faster energy regain. Big-Red 10:39, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, shadow form already was sorta energy tight, it's not too much of a nerf.

New Perma-SF Stats
Just thought I'd compile some stats for the new Shadow Form. Thus, if using a zealous weapon for energy with A/E, I'd suggest switching to a non-zealous weapon outside of battle. Otherwise you won't have enough energy to maintain Shadow Form. If anyone wants to clean up the data and stick it on the main page, you are more than welcome to. Blood Red Giant 16:01, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * A/E using Deadly Paradox, Glyph of Swiftness, and Shadow Form + 20% Enchant Mod
 * With a recharge of 22.5 seconds + 1 second cast time, Shadow Form can be cast every 23.5 seconds.
 * With attributes 14, 15, and 16 Shadow Form lasts 24, 25.2, and 26.4 seconds respectively. Thus, Shadow Form is maintainable with a maximum buffer of 2.9 seconds.
 * If casting on recharge, Perma-SF will cost 30e/23.5sec~= 1.28 energy per second (~3.8 pips of energy degen).
 * The minimum cost of Perma-SF is 30e/26.4sec~= 1.14 e/sec (~3.4 pips).
 * A/Me using Deadly Paradox, Arcane Echo, and Shadow Form + 20% Enchant Mod
 * Since Arcane Echo can be cast every 42 seconds (20 duration + 20 recharge + 2 cast) and Shadow Form can be cast every 31 seconds (30 recharge + 1 cast), Arcane Echo is the limiting factor.
 * Since Shadow Form must be long enough to cover 23 seconds of downtime (20 recharge of AE + 2 cast of AE + 1 cast of SF), only attributes of 14, 15, or 16 will work (using the times above). Thus, Shadow Form is maintainable with a maximum buffer of 3.4 seconds.
 * If casting on recharge, Perma-SF will cost 40e/43sec~= 0.93 e/sec (~2.8 pips).
 * The minimum cost of Perma-SF is 40e/46.4sec~= 0.86 e/sec (~2.6 pips).
 * A/any using Shadow Form under the effects of Quickening Zephyr (supplied by someone else) + 20% Enchant Mod
 * Timing is the same as A/E mentioned above.
 * If casting on recharge, Perma-SF will cost 10e/23.5sec~= 0.43 e/sec (~1.3 pips).
 * The minimum cost of Perma-SF is 10e/26.4sec~= 0.38 e/sec (~1.1 pips).
 * Please double check the A/Me version for aftercast delay on Arcane Echo. The overlap available for re-casting the 1-2-3 chain is also limited by the player timing the echo casting of Shadow Form before Arcane Echo reverts. Assuming you get off the echo cast with 1/4s to spare and the same for casting AE after recharge is complete (since you can't que a recharging skill), here's my version of the calculation - The recharge on AE is 20s, +0.5s of gaps in casting, +2s casting time after recharge, +0.75s aftercast delay, +1s for Shadow Form cast = 24.25s. I get an overlap of 2.15s @ 16, 0.95s @ 15, and 0.00s @ 14. My calculation is using up to .5s in the gaps, but thats assuming you hit both the re-cast of SF and the casting of AE in under .25s each. I'm not sold that anyone can actually maintain at 14 and still do anything usefull. 64.32.249.154 22:32, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, you're right about the aftercast for Arcane Echo; I forgot to include that in my analysis, so the recast time is 43.75 seconds instead of 43 seconds. As for everything else, you're right, there is no way someone could reasonably maintain Shadow Form as an A/Me. The fact that there is no good way to tell when Arcane Echo is about to end combined with a maximum buffer of 2.65 seconds (assuming 0 activation lag) makes the concept fairly ridiculous. However, I was just stating purely the mathematical fact that, theoretically, it is still possible, even if you would have to be God to pull it off. Blood Red Giant 23:10, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm u forgot to add the another 10e that echoed SF cost so its 50e/43.75s~=1.14e/sec
 * Considering u don't use zealos weapon then u gto 1.33 energy regen per sec so 1.33-1.14=0.19e/sec
 * That means 0.19e/sec*43.75s~=8.31e, so u can get this done 100% and gain about 8 energy but u cant do real dmg with 8e
 * The use of Channeling might work but u'll have to manage it extremely well...
 * Good catch on the second cast of SF. Blood Red Giant 14:47, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * So this is definitely possible at attribute 16 as an A/Me with Arcane Echo, Deadly Paradox, and Shadow Form combined with Channeling and Spirit of Failure for energy. I use it as an alternative method to keeping up SF while speed clearing the underworld, just in case the consets run out. As for maintaining it with as little work as possible, use a 20% Enchant mod and make sure NOT to have 20% HSR. Then use Deadly Paradox+Arcane Echo+Shadow Form, and use the echoed version of SF right before the recharge of SF hits the bottom left corner. Rinse and repeat. Blood Red Giant 20:26, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

(ri) Quickening zephyr makes it cost 13e. I've used this information and corrected it on Shadow Form/Maintaining -- Karasu (talk) 10:58, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Energy
You can't really run Droks with perma anymore because you need energy for anti KD and for running stances, and you can only gain a net ~2 energy every cycle... ouch. --Gah The  Epic  17:28, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Nerfed as the holiday is coming with event items drops.. blast! We got screwed -- Nox Coma 03:33, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Last time I checked, you don't need energy to kegspam. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 06:00, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Although running to the farming spot would probably take longer, since you might have trouble affording a speed boost on top of the perma-SF (although there's always the option of *gasp* making the run without SF up all the time). --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  07:10, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I would never perma SF drok's. Way too much time lost casting that spell/glyph. So annoying too. Feigned Neutrality is all the damage mitigation I ever need after Dwarven Escape, so to speak. =P Cope Land 10:49, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * A/D Drok's runner with Vow of Silence still works just fine, it's just a tougher build to use. --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  20:15, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Wow Guildwars staff...
This has to be THE stupidest nerf ever, and guildwars just hurt the in-game economy because now it is EXTREMELY hard to keep shadow form up, and ecto prices are gonna fly to around 5-7k in the next months. Perma SF is just to hard now. --75.80.138.85 17:18, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

That's kinda the point. Ectos were getting WAY too low price-wise. And now I guess it'll have to be D/A for droks running. Don't get me long, I LOVE to SF, but at least they didn't render SF COMPLETELY unusable. The only build I can think of that uses it is...well, permasin. --User:Hylas 10:44, 13 December 2008 MST (GMT-7:00)


 * There's the "normal" Solo Green farmer, but that switched to perma-SF after one of the previous nerfs. I think ANet actually managed this nerf well, in the fact that the solo green farmer can still work (since it's quick, and uses GoLE to manage the energy), while the "watch me casually stroll through elite areas of the game without healers" perma-SF builds suffer. Perhaps we can see more real teams using SF tanks with a BiP handy... --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  20:17, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Shadow Form broke the economy. (Top 10 list at any rate.) I'm not sure why you're complaining. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 06:19, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I actually prefer SF tanks. Just bring someone with Quickening Zephyr and all the tank needs is SF at att. 14+. Combine that with a zealous scythe, some critical strikes, and dervish attacks and you've got a decent damage dealer that can't be killed. All that's left is to drop the health to ~255 to make sure he maintains aggro. Blood Red Giant 14:54, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * WOOT no more friggin perma's filling up Droks running. Now let the pros (me) get back to what they do best! Risus 17:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * People are stupid, not the arena-net staff. Who is wasting their time doing the same thing over and over to get some recognition in an online game, while you could just be playing the game itself instead? Stop whining.  SniperFox [[Image:User_SniperFox_IconSmall.gif]] 11:52, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Erhm, farming and grinding IS part of PLAYING the game you know... Ways of acquiring a title, get gold to buy something cosmetic/functional for your character, farm a certain location for a specific item... It's ALL part of playing the game... -- Nox Coma 07:42, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Look here's the bacon... http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=_oWacuX_Mgs <<< You see that? If I can do that and be extremely lazy about it something's wrong, this was a very balanced nerf and I hope it stays like this. 211.27.163.117 22:48, 8 January 2009 (UTC) (Nikdanbro but not logged-in ... for some reason, I coulda sworn I was logged on yesterday o-0)

Hard, but still possible
Last changes in SF seriously impact the possibility to keep it permanently and do something usable at the same time, because almost all energy income is spending for 3 basic skills in A/E SF build. However, it is still usable, but with another tactics: instead of permanent SF need to use the "shadow sessions" tactics.

Let take that common A/E has about 55 energy. 30e is needed to maintain SF while in session, so we have about 25e to do something like damage or run skills. When this 25e expires, we can't maintain SF with another actions in this session, so we need to run to the safe place and restore initial energy and health for the next session.

These 25e should be enough to defeat a small group of foes or run through non-extensive dangerous area. After sparing 5e for emergency case (important!), remained 20e need to be spent via Glyph of Lesser Energy, which allows to use 2 skills (5e or 10e each) 4 times with 30 sec intervals. Something like this:

Shadow Refuge is an emergency skill to restore health, it can be replaced with another skill like Heart of Shadow (allows to get rid of body block). 2 main damage deal/running skills of your build need to place after Glyph of Lesser Energy and use with it. I have tested 2 farming builds: Viper's Defense with Lava Font at 12 Fire Magic and Air of Superiority with Sliver Armor at 12 Earth Magic, they work satisfactory to well with appropriate targets. --Slavic 15:35, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * My assassin has 70 energy, am I still safe using the normal 3-skill perma combo?-- [[Image:User_Vanguard_VanguardLogo.png|19px]] anguard  17:47, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Probably yes, because 3 free slots left and you can fill them like you wish. You need to decide, which skills better to use with GoLE and which directly, to decrease overall spending. Anyway having free 40e is nice, I only suspect that you have got it using something like Seize the Day with -1 to natural regeneration. In this case, you can't receive +30e regeneration each SF cycle. --Slavic 18:53, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No, I got it using Asuran rank. I raptor farm so I use the jug and Air of Superiorty to help bring it back. I'm going to hop on GW later today and just test the original 3 rotation to see if I can still do it.-- [[Image:User_Vanguard_VanguardLogo.png|19px]] anguard  19:14, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Possible Change..?
15 energy, 1 second casting, 30 second recharge.

'For 5..10..13 seconds, all hostile spells against you fail, and all attacks miss, and you have -3..2..1 health degeneration. When Shadow Form ends, you loose all but 10..20..30 health and 10..15..20 energy'
 * LMAO, I'll bet that u have never played as a sin (exc: farming with perma...) and u just wish them worst (read: destroy sins only profitable farm etc) . GG Kamis 17:39, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

If I did my calculations right, it's still maintainable, but requires more energy, more often. It has pressure on your health, so more energy would be required for healing skills, and it is more punishing if it ends. To maintain this, you would have to be near constantly switching between high and low energy sets, leaving you little time to cast spells. I'm not signed in 78.147.71.178 11:37, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It would also remove it completely from play, which is not what ANet is attempting to do. As SF currently stands, perma-SF's are still very effective in groups as either tanks or playing specialized roles (Underworld Speed Clear for example); however, for almost all solo farms, perma-SF is now vastly outclassed in both speed and effectiveness by other builds. Thus, instead of killing the skill, they are simply shifting it to a more team-friendly Meta. Blood Red Giant 21:16, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * it would indeed remove it from play wich anet SHOULD do i rly rly want to go back to the 7-8 k's ecto's :s Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Eviscerate.jpg|19x19px]] *gale*  08:47, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't really be removed from play. It is still maintainable (theoretically). Perhpas if you changed the numbers so that Eles could do it, and the degen wouldn't really matter, just take sup vigor etc. 88.104.104.122 23:13, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, solo farming is pretty decent. A/Es can farm in DoA with LB Signet, A/Mes just have to add Mindbender to maintain. Chiyu! 23:26, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Lilondra, of course you want to go back to 7-8k ectos. You're probably hoarding stacks of them.  And Chiyu, A/Me doesnt need Mindbender to maintin.  You just have to cast the echoed version of SF within a 2 second period in order for Arcane echo to recharge fast enough, which takes skills.--[[Image:Grentch.jpg|15px]] Glory  03:43, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No,i barely farm UW,do not have FoW and have no ecto's I want the back because they never should have been this low i mean they used to be 20k+ each !!! Farming brought the ecto's and the economy out of balance.We all know what ought to be done is restore balance Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Eviscerate.jpg|19x19px]] *gale*  11:15, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Really? In my experience, Arcane Echo doesn't recharge in time. And yes, I'm using 16 shadow arts and a 20% enchant staff. Chiyu! 16:26, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yet you probably don't complain about 600/Smite, 55/SS. 88.104.104.122 16:27, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Reset Indent Chiyu, I can tell you from experience that it is maintainable as A/Me with just deadly paradox, arcane echo, and shadow form. I use that as a backup plan while doing speed underworld clears in case the consets run out. I use 16 shadow arts, 20% enchant, and no HSR. Then, right before the recharge of SF hits the bottom left corner, I hit the echoed version. Works perfectly. Blood Red Giant 01:09, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The way to fix Shadow Form restore balance is simple: make it a Skill. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 09:34, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Define "Balance"? What is ANet's purpose with this skill? It's a perfect tool for tanking when capable of keeping up permanently. Keeping up permanently and being able to farm efficiently is overpowered. If it's changed to a skill (which is quite unlogical since it still acts as an enchantment - and can be removed in that manner). People will not be able to keep it up efficiently enough and the skill we become unhandy and people will stop using it. Assasins will even become obsolete in high-end areas. --[[Image:User_Karasu_sig.png|19px]] <font color="Black">Karasu (talk) 11:07, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * If it was a skill, it would be unstrippable for the duration, and you could not maintain it at all without using Arcane Mimicry and craploads of energy. Which would kill its use for (solo) farming. I don't think that it ought to be permanently maintainable ever, because it's an inherently broken skill. How can All-But-Godmode be considered balanced in any way? Even if you "just" use it for tanking, that's imbalanced. You shouldn't be able to withstand onslaught from some of the most brutal monsters in the game with an armor level of <20 (starter armor), or even no armor for that case, and just 3-4 skills on your bar. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 11:22, 2 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Why does Anet always have to nerf Sins? >< Farming with SF is the only(profitable) farm for 'em ;/ GJ Anet, keep doing that to sins... They all will be grateful for that [-.-]Kamis


 * Quote: "Lilondra, of course you want to go back to 7-8k ectos. You're probably hoarding stacks of them."
 * Quote: "Yet you probably don't complain about 600/Smite, 55/SS."
 * The first is an ad homenim, and so not necessarily relevant. Does it matter how many ectos I have?  Not in the least.  In fact, I'm one of the poor players who doesn't have stacks of ectos (I have 8, which I intend to use in crafting my first set of chaos gloves).  Ecto price increase would hurt me, personally.  And yet I want Shadow Form abolished.  Go figure.
 * The second is just as much an attack on the person, and so is, again, not necessarily relevant. But, for the sake of pseudo-argument, I'll say that yes, I do complain about 55s.  And SF.  And 600.  And obby tanking.  And VoR.  And WS.  And SF (the other imba one).  And Savage Shot.  Why?  Not because they break the economy, but because they promote skilless play.  Before anyone says, "But Raine, you need to have perfect timing on casting and weapon swaps to be able to Perma SF!", I'll point out that a keyboard macro can do it for you.  Aye, I'm sure that keyboard macros are very skilled at GW; being able to match them makes a player equally as skilled.
 * Anet nerfed SF because SF was (and still is) imbalanced. That is all.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  03:41, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Wee, edit conflict.
 * 'Sins made profit with the old SF Boss Farmer, which was around a long time when SF was NOT maintainable. As it is, that still works (since you kill the target before your energy completely runs out generally, knocking out the need to re-cast more then once or twice). So no problems there.
 * Perma-SF 'Sins can still tank, since they have just enough energy to maintain SF and nothing else, or SF and a few more skills when used in a "real" team with a BiP Necro somewhere in there (or even a random character with Succor). So no problems there.
 * The only thing that's been killed are the solo farming builds that could basically clear the entirety of Underworld alone, nearly Vanquish entire areas, and other such broken shit. And even still, with Zealous Daggers and some player skill, that build isn't completely dead either. So in my opinion, no problems there either. --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  03:46, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Hypocrisy
Plain and simple. So many people complain about how shadow form has ruined the game and as a result a series of nerfs have made it nearly impossible to effectively farm with it any more, when in fact shadow form did not ruin the game or hurt the in-game economy any more than low gas prices would hurt the real world economy, all Shadow form did was provide an easily learned method for the average player to farm some ectos. But this is exactly what the complainers were afraid of, because that drops the trader value of ectos and as a result the value of their stacks of ectos drops as well. So they complain and anet listened, and I find it hard to believe that they would be such hypocrites when I am positive that they would never start a protest demanding Higher Gas prices. After all if everyone had access to cheap oil that would benefit them too, but just like the CEOs of the oil industry, the complainers don't want Shadow form to be usable, because they already have the stockpiles of ectos. So make up your mind, if you would like cheaper fuel, then quit acting like the CEO of an oil company.  Krak  en  03:46, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I still farm with it. Whatch00 talkin' about, willis?-- [[Image:User_Vanguard_VanguardLogo.png|19px]] anguard  03:53, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Your real-world example fails at applying to the Guild Wars ecto market. I've never had more than ~30 ectos which I farmed within the last 6 months for a single piece of obsidian armor; and I claim that Shadow Form helped to ruin the economy because it increased the supply of *everything in the game* that could be farmed, resulting in skydiving prices. You wonder why most greens in the game are worthless? Shadow Form helped with that. You wonder why Mesmer tomes are like 100g each? Shadow Form. You wonder why stacks of special-event drops are worth like half what they were in the past? Shadow Form helped with that. You wonder why the droprate for Droks trolls, UW monsters, Tomb of the Primeval Kings monsters, and other places has continually been nerfed? Shadow Form helped with that.
 * I hate Shadow Form. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 07:15, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * And that example also has no bearing on the game, the reason mesmer tome are 100g each is because mesmers were nerfed to death just like is happening to assassins now so only a very few players want more than 2 or 3 mesmer skills, mostly to help with energy management, Shadow form has nothing to do with the demand for mesmer tomes, perhaps supply but even so it has the same effect on the supply of tomes for other professions. Greens, well Shadow form probably did affect those, but they could be just as easily farmed with a 55 monk useing spell breaker or some other farming build. Special events treats? those are cheap because they drop from pretty much every third monster, and from the millions of people who spent all of their Christmas breaks trying to get a mini polar bear, they mostly might have failed but they certainly got stacks upon stacks of treats from it. Sky diving prices in general can also be largely attributed to the Hall of Monuments, no one will pay 100k+xxectos for an elemental sword when they know that it will have no value in GW2, they would rather spend that money on an armbrace to take a tormented weapon with them, And you might not have noticed this but the prices of things that fit in the HoM has not really dropped considerably since the release of EotN. Don't blame the prices of certain once valuable items on shadow form, prices are based on supply and demand once EotN stated that elemental swords and fire dragon swords and every green was worthless, demand plumeted it was not that shadow form caused such a spike in supply. But sure maybe ectos have dropped in price due somewhat to Shadow form farming (not to mention 55/600/trapper/ numerous other types of farming builds) But in the end I look at that the same way as gas prices, cheaper ectos let more people afford obsidian armor, but still few enough that it is still a very prestigious way to show off. (although maybe chaos gauntlets are more so)  Krak  en  17:05, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Vaettir farming says hi. Lern2farm (if you're not familiar, this involves using Shadow Form to get to Jaga Moraine in Hard Mode while having Budger Blackpowder along; you can spam dropping Dwarven Powder Keg for unlimited damage and knockdowns, wiping out the ~50 Spectral Vaettir very easily. Although this can be done also using Obsidian Flesh and maybe few other things, Shadow Form is far easiest. It is relevant because this produces stacks of Mesmer tomes, Glacial Stones, and during special events like Thanksgiving, stacks of special event items.) Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 04:06, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You're IRL analogy applies since people toooootallly use gas as a form of currency. --[[Image: User_Ezekial_Riddle_sig.jpg|19px|Talk]] Riddle 04:34, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thats true, IRL we also use globs of grape jelly to circumvent the inability to pay more than $100,000 for anything, Seriously oil is the closest thing IRL, sure maybe you can't buy an Xbox with it, but it is valuable enough to fight wars over. And if you problem is with some Bomb dropping to farm glacial stones then ask for the bombs to be limited to say 5. But I especially like this "Although this can be done also using Obsidian Flesh and maybe few other things, Shadow Form is far easiest." And why is that such a bad thing, does the game Have to be difficult in all situations or is it just for assassins? Because so far there have been no crys to nerf protective spirit or obsidian flesh to the grave, So from all appearances this is just being picked on because it is an assassin's farming build. Seriously Obsidian fless only takes 2 skills to maintain and both are elementalist skills, and prot spirit can be maintained with no other skills to help it. So stop complaining about assassins having an area in the game that they are actually useful,

This will be much more effective and easier to maintain as well, so complain about this.  Krak  en  22:03, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Prot spirit/obs flesh are balanced and don't give you immunity to 99.5% of things in the game. Hardly a comparison. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 02:59, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Immunity to hexes, all spells, all direct damage, conditions still hurt you but if you use mending touch or any basic regen skill it will negate that, so the only things that really hit through this are life stealing (oh wait that mostly hits through shadow form as well), interrupts and KDs, which can largely be avoided with PvE only skills so it is more than a fair comparison. also any form of AoE can damage through shadow form (but not this) and signets can damage through shadow form (but not this), any non attack skills can damage through shadow form (but not this), seriously shadow form is not some godly invincibility spell, it just makes you invulnerable to certain creatures in very specific areas, but oh wait All farming builds do that. So seriously either complain about them all or stop complaining, at least Try to be consistent.  Krak  en  04:28, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I was referring specifically to the statement "Because so far there have been no crys to nerf protective spirit or obsidian flesh to the grave" and was going to elaborate but you've edit-conflicted me, so I'll get back to that later. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 04:39, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Later Krak  en  22:16, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I've stopped caring about Conga Wars and its broken economy for now. Maybe it would be good if ANet restored Shadow Form to its former glory; they still seem to support mindless play by sins. Seems like sins always have to have rely on some overpowered gimmick or other to be viable in the game. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 01:58, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Lol economy on a video game. There is absolutely nothing that is worth bitching over in this game. Ya know the reverse of a decrease in value? YOU CAN BUY IT FOR LESS TOO. The entire "Economy" of this game is based off of playing dress up with your toons. So the ONLY reason I can think of for bitching about value decrease and over farming (Which is INEVITABLE) is that you want to e-peen by having something that others don't, which is disgusting even in a stupid game.--128.211.182.215 08:20, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Then I suppose it's a good thing I am too poor to afford anything worth e-peen. I only serve to benefit from crap like Shadow Form, yet I complain about it anyway. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 13:47, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I ALSO enjoy randomly CAPITALIZING words when I POST a MESSAGE. It makes me FEEL important. REALLY <font color="darkBlue">b.r // <font color="Black">talk  13:51, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * lmao -- -Ch ao s-  14:28, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * And assassins are not the only profession to rely on Overpowered Gimmicks. The only reason why many assassins do use the same build is because anet has never given them more than one or two viable builds for any situation other than general pve, for which the generally most viable build involves spamming death blossom. And I don't see the need to nerf a single classes farming build just because it belongs to that single class, personally I think all classes should have at least one build capable of farming an area or 2 in the underworld. Sure balance them between each other, but don't ask for one specific one to be nerfed/killed just because it is the most common.  Krak  en  16:22, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Seering Flooms is a horrible skill tbh; it's only powerful because it's extremely difficult to counter effectively (no recharge, big aoe, constant burning, damage...zzz). Word of Healing is somewhat overpowered (yet also necessary, due to the insane amount of damage in the game now) but it can't really be called a "gimmick", as it's not godmode...and it's quite a bit easier to shut down than, say, Shadow Form. Not to mention that Monks and Elementalists actually have other viable options in PvE...
 * Pretty sure that every profession has at least one farming build (or at least a duo build) which can farm UW. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 16:38, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * a single skill is not a gimmick. Searing Flames is a strong AoE skill but not overpowered. WoH is a strong heal but definitely necessary, and a monk is still not too hard to train to death. -- -Ch ao s-  18:09, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * @Vili So if every profession has at least one viable farming build then why are you asking anet to destroy the assassin's build in particular. Shadow form is not godmode anymore than searing flames is, if you go up against any mob with a single monk in it that monk will be able to easily outheal any damage you can inflict while shadow form is active and on your skill bar, and as you said searing flames is good because it can deal large dmg, constant burning, and is kind of hard to counter, while searing flames can block a lot of stuff thrown at it and is kind of hard to counter. and if you are just complaining that assassin don't have any viable pve builds other than shadow form builds then ask for some other skills to be buffed to allow assassins to play the game along with the rest of the professions, and not only complain about their single farming build.
 * @Chaos So a single skill is not a gimmick? Well I could not agree more, Shadow form is by no means a gimmick.  Krak  en  01:04, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * You just said WoH is an overpowered gimmicks. Your opinion is now officially null <font color="darkBlue">b.r // <font color="Black">talk  01:06, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * "why are you asking anet to destroy the assassin's build in particular" Because it outclasses nearly every other (solo) farming build in existence, in almost every place, both in efficiency and viability...go to Tomb of the Primeval Kings, you'll see nothing but A/E or A/Me there 95% of the time. I don't think that is balanced. Shadow Form waaaay back in the days, before it was maintainable, was still perfectly good for farming some greens etc. That really is where it ought to be. I also think it can be compared to things like consumables and Ursan Blessing - they render a person basically invincible regardless of skill or what the opponent has, and that makes all of PvE even more of a joke than it already is. It's bad for the game and it creates more bad players. :\
 * ....Shadow Form hasn't been used in PvP for quite a long time (before the latest nerf, it could still be maintained, but only with the help of others, and that made it useless), and that's the only place with competent monks minus a very few overpowered monsters with unlimited energy. There are few places in PvE that you can't do solo as a perma, even these days. Consider the Fissure of Woe and Smoke Walkers - they are generally considered to be strong healers, yeah? Well, it's still totally possible to farm mobs with Smoke Walkers; it just takes more skill.
 * The thing with Assassins is that they are a PvP class by nature; the whole idea of "spiking down unwary targets" just doesn't fit well with PvE, because PvE is all about lol partywide buffs (hadmode) / massive AoE domages (easymode) / minions. For the same reason that Mesmers are bad in PvE outside of Cryway, Assassins just don't provide enough to the party to be useful. Other than spiking down a target, what else can they do but tank with Shadow Form? Death Blossom/Moebius spam is also used, but that's really just inferior to any number of other mass AoE options, if only because the Assassin has bad armor for a frontline class. Rarely, one may take critscythe, crit bow, crit X, but those are just as bad/fragile. They just don't belong in PvE. I don't like that fact any more than you do, as it renders an entire profession useless by default and that's just stupid. However I also don't like the idea of buffing other things, because to be on par with Shadow Form they would have to be just as overpowered, and I can't imagine how for example you could do that with, say, Way of the Assassin...The PvP/PvE skill split is a totally viable way to balance things, but considering ANet's consistent lack of using it, I wouldn't rely on that to solve the problem either.
 * "Godmode" is usually used to describe a state of invincibility, and it doesn't take other party members into account. Searing Flames doesn't fit that description at all, as it's purely offensive, and requires multiple copies to be useful at all. Shadow Form, on the other hand, renders you immune to nearly everything in the game and doesn't need help from others... Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 01:31, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * @br You did not follow the point I was trying to make, Initially vili had said that shadow prison and palm strike were gimmicks, and that referred to certain uses of them, I was not trying to specifically say that the skills WoH and Searing Flames were gimmicks, but when a team takes 7 SF eles and 1 monk that certainly fits the bill.
 * @Vili And as I said in the beginning Shadow form is not godmode at all it can be removed by many skills and bypassed by many more, however there are not a great many monsters that have many of those skills in pve, that is why so many A/Es are prevalent in certain parts of the game, But at the same time look at how many monk bots farm the kurz areas (not sure if too much of that is still going on) and anywhere else where there is little enchantment removal. if they can avoid enchantment removal monks and eles can be just as or even more Godmode than any shadow form assassin.
 * If you want anet to nerf assassin's only farming build then also ask for all other farming builds to be killed, because it is not that just assassin farming is doing anything to your concept of the in game economy, it is all farming. And before anet does that they had better buff the pve version of death blossom and remove the <50% clause from pve mobius to give assassins some usefulness in pve, just as mesmers also need a lot of pve buff to make people consider a mesmer over anything else. Asking just for nerfs to Shadow form is not asking for balance it is asking for one class to be instantly replaced by other classes.  Krak  en  19:22, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Oplzzzzzz dont be so funny guys you dont even know why youre crying SF been nerfed hundreds of times already pretty much into the ground it is no longer OP or does anything to the economy and ammpount of people crying just shows how friggin terrible guild ars community has become. SF now has very inpractical recharge meaning you cant run with it as effectively as you could before, much easier to run out of energy and much harder to mantain permanent ims say from dark escape/dwarven then it used to be. Speedclears? Dont be funny SF is by far not the cause of them nor is pve only skills or anything open your eyes people! Look at those damn consets that didnt get touched even once for such a long time but in reality they are what keep speeclears alive making you party virtually invulnerable to anything an rea can throw at them securing effortless upkeep of their shadowform and similar crap but people still carry on whining about shadow form and pve skills. --<font color="Red">Super <font color="Blue"> Igor  [[image:User Super Igor siggy.jpg|19px]] 19:48, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * If I take cons and no Shadow Form, it's not a "speed clear" anymore. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 19:52, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice joke, there are more sc's like deep, urgoz and even fow that can be easily done without permaform but with cons and Im sure people will find a way to do it for uw and se. --<font color="Red">Super <font color="Blue"> Igor  [[image:User Super Igor siggy.jpg|19px]] 00:13, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * How to lose ana argument:
 * Saying a skill is not OP because it has been nerfed.
 * Shadow form will be OP untill people will run it instead of team builds in tombs,(pve) and will run ONLY speedclears. And the problem with SC: people Solo-farm areas of UW. So it's not considered as a team play. So shadow form needs to be reverted to the version before may 22. --Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Earthshaker.jpg|10px‎]] 09:00, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

(indent reset) Shadow Form vs Obby Flesh builds are NOTHING alike - Obby restricts movement 50%, does NOT cause skills to miss so adrenaline can build up (Graspings in the UW will still daze/interrupt with Skull Crack). They're also twice as fragile to life stealing since hits need to be 330 or lower. In fact, there is no possible way an E/Mo Obby Ele can solo the UW (there are a couple of E/Me builds that can kill smites and similar) - they need a second caster with Sympathetic Visage/Ancestor's Visage at the bare minimum to clear, and there are LOTS of other two man farm teams of nearly every class. There are still one man assassin builds that can farm nearly any area of the UW, but usually they go in as a team and split up using consets and one person doing each area (usually a necro assists in the Vale to speed things up and restore the monuments while the 'sin tanks). --Falseprophet 20:55, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

still ez perma?
if u use con sets you can use an a/me build only needing shadow form and Deadly Paradox, the 20% less recharge and the +1 to shadow form makes it maintainable(tested it) and with some of the mes skills u dont have to worrey about energy. with the kurz mes skill and the asura skill radiation field u can degen kill things. ive seen it do some parts in uw...but idk if theres some problems doing all of it.
 * It takes a Essence of Celerity and it can be done with 13 or 14 shadow arts, i forget -- and the version youve seen is probably a chamber perma, they use Deadly Paradox, SF, and an Essence of Celerity to maintain SF, something like this is a common build
 * [[Image:User_C4K3_Signature.jpg]]C4K3 20:17, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

more on shadowform
the nerf affected people differently. although it can be claimed that it now requires more skill, it simply excludes people with higher lag to be able to run it. a minor lag spike will ruin a run. as a tank, it can cause a partywipe. whereas before, even a medium lag spike could still be manageable. it wasn't about ectos, that area was tailored specifically to defeat shadowform for the good of the economy. that's understandable and a good move on anet's part. the higher energy strain also detracts from the possible builds, such as utility skills that were once rather useful. various wards were rather helpful, allowing the permasin to have a place in the party dynamics, rather than just standing meaninglessly as an aggro pylon.

there are also other farming builds which are much more effective than permasins in many areas. the terra tank is able to maintain sliver armor permanently in some builds, nearly doubling its kill rate. the fact that there are many farmers who are not sins implies that the permasin is not the best choice for all situations.

the people who complain most about shadowform are not representative of the population. the casual gamer (most of us) used it to get established. the elite gamers who can afford extravagant items and armors obviously want to perserve their status. and understandably so. not all of us have guilds who are on all the time, who will run 2 imbagons, an ER healer and cryers to steam roll all areas. for those of us who aren't quite as skilled, it was one of the only ways we could cap that elite, beat that boss, get past a really difficult area, etc. nor do we want to infringe on the elitists' hard earned status. most of us will never own obsidian anything. i've never seen a crystaline sword, in game. i'm okay with that. but shadowform Was guildwars, for many of us. this nerf essentially turned us all into pylons, although amusing, isn't fun.


 * I'm just curious, but if a non-elite gamer complains about Shadow Form, where does that put them? They've got nothing to preserve, no status to protect... Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 08:36, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I did JQ for a few days and got enough zkeys for 2-3 full sets of obsidian armor. I ran SoO half-asleep once and got 60-70k after ~1 hour. Moral of the story: If you can't farm with SF due to lag, please stop whining like a crybaby and seek other ways of earning money. Or better yet, /wrists hard and deep. On an unrelated note, most obsidian armor skins are VERY ugly. It's like forcing yourself to wear a pair of golden slippers with a tuxedo to flaunt how rich you are: unsightly and deplorable.Pika Fan 21:31, 17 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank goodness someone said it. Obsidian armor is really ugly. In fact for Sins I find 95% of the female elite amor pretty horrible(Monument is the only one I like) and end up wearing my plain old Canthan armor.


 * if you don't understand the post, you're free to ask. it's not about farming. it never was, and never will be for casual gamers. i'm sure it works as a farming build. which is great but irrelevant. that's not the point, and unfortunately, the point still stands. although, someone who does earn 60..70k an hour is a perfect example of a non-casual gamer - telling everyone else to go to hell is exactly the point - some of us have better things to do than grind, it should not exclude us from gaming.

If Over-Nerfed
What happens if Anet increases the recharge time so there is no way for it to be used. What is its purpose them? No one wants a skill that invokes a instant death after 20 seconds of invulnerability. Look at the PvP version of this skill. It is never used because it CANT be used. Flaming hot chilli 08:42, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Before Shadow Form was maintainable, people still used it to farm bosses and such. (It didn't have a damage penalty then.) Sometimes people still use this in low-end PvP for reasons I cannot understand. Vili &#x70B9; [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 09:45, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Birthday
If may's build won't balance/rework/nerf shadow form then everyone join us here for celebrating Shadow Form's Birthday! Boro 04:56, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

HAPPY BIRTHDAY SHADOW FORM!!!! Boro 17:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Uhmm..
"This skill is maintainable by secondary elementalists with 16 in Shadow Arts," Secondary elementalists cannot use runes of a sin, methinks. Harrier 11:08, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I think they mean by an Sin/ele not Any/ele - Giant Nuker 11:26, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes. By "secondary Elementalist", it means the the character's secondary profession is Elementalist, not that the character is an Elementalist with a secondary. --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  07:26, 5 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, makes sense. How could I miss that o_O? Harrier 09:33, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * So, er, this skill is maintainable by secondary anything - why single out Eles? (Much though I enjoy Perma-Slivering stuff...) -- snog  rat [[Image:User Snograt signature.png]] 23:42, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Glyph of Swiftness -- adrin [[Image:User_adrin_ecto_sig.png]] 23:50, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Duh. I really must get more sleep before posting crap like that >< -- snog  rat [[Image:User Snograt signature.png]] 11:16, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I never thought this was overpowered.
The old version was ok with me, i never even used it

I miss the days when a confident sin would come up to me and i'd kill them instantly using something like Flame djinns haste.

ah well, guess other peeps couldn't figure out how to kill them. ~Mat~
 * Everybody already knew how to kill them. Having two non-viable counters doesn't make it balanced.  ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 20:30, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Happy Birthday Shadow Farm!
It's been 1 year today since it started ruining PvE. grats! -- adrin  23:36, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It's been 1 year today since I stopped making 30 ectos in 2 hours. :(  Ursan teams were so stupid back then.  I got to kill everything while the others ran around stomping level-15 spirits at a languid pace.  Let's hope they get rid of this nonsense soon, or else just let us have shadow smash and be done with it.  Speaking of which, I want a mallyx tonic.  --Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 23:40, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

These day, elite areas are cleared incredibly fast using multiple Shadow form assassins. I don't understand why they even allow such a thing to exist. It took other profession such as warrior out of the meta for good. (OrganizedOP 21:03, 13 June 2009 (UTC))
 * It took all professions except assassins out of the meta for good. It's bloody stupid.  In other MMOs, if developers found out players were running around literally invincible and making ridiculous amounts of money with a retarded gimmick, they'd fix whatever bug was causing it and ban the perpetrators without a second though.  But ANet, naturally, not only permits this to continue for    OVER A YEAR,    they endorse it.  On an unrelated topic, I hate html and am too lazy and stupid to half-learn anything else.  --Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 21:54, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Someone at ArenaNet would tell you that you got a really narrow view. Cant remember who :) Yseron - 81.251.150.117 21:58, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Either nerf this skill completely or add touch skills that removes enchantments in the elite areas on every monsters there. (OrganizedOP 22:06, 14 June 2009 (UTC))

Re-structured
Re-structured the page and added an updated and corrected overview of maintaining methods on Shadow Form/Maintaining. -- <font color="Black">Karasu (talk) 10:56, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks excellent. Good job :). Blood Red Giant 11:05, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

YOO!
About solo farming, runs and speedclears: ''Players have long asked for our viewpoint on these ways of playing through content. For the most part, we think these are acceptable ways of playing Guild Wars but may occasionally take steps to increase their difficulty or even block a particular build. For instance, when it comes to Shadow Form, there is little concern about solo farming in most places; however, the speed clears of our most difficult content have become fast enough to warrant a more watchful eye. Over the coming months we will monitor these areas and, starting with Cry of Pain, make adjustments where necessary.''

This means they are gonna nerf it! :D:D - Wuhy   06:31, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion
By changing Shadow Form to a skill, it is now exempt from +20%s and Glyph of Swiftness. This does mean that you must use an essence to keep it up permanently, eradicating some poorer users. Shadow Farm is now viable for solo farming by removing the damage penalty if you don't intend to be keeping it up. If, however, you do intend on keeping it up, the damage penalty is back up. If my calculations are right, and I'm not sure if they are, you have 0.5 seconds to recast SF before it ends, putting more pressure on permas. It also now costs 15 energy, meaning that perma-ing now costs 30 energy, which is quite expensive. <font color="black" face="calibri"> --Saberhagen (My Talk) 12:30, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Perma-ing always costed at least 30 energy (GoS (5) + DP (15) + SF (10)) without cons. Making skills rely on consumables is just plain bad. King Neoterikos 12:05, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Speed Clearing didn't though. And please tell me how this skill relies on cons? <font color="black" face="calibri"> --Saberhagen [[Image:User Saberhagen Wiki Sig5.png|19 px]] (My Talk) 12:30, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I should have made myself clearer: any non-PvE only skill that has a clause relating to cons is bad. King Neoterikos 12:40, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Your suggestion is terrible and you should feel terrible. Making people rely on consumables is going to make the game even worse than it already is -- worse yet, you, like ANet, have not fixed what is wrong with the skill.  The problem is that it is maintainable invincibility.  What the hell ass balls kind of game not only allows but encourages and in some cases requires its players to turn on god mode?  And I don't want to hear a damned thing about "hurr hurr but it KAN be countered jort, itz in unkhintmont!!!11!1!" or "erf derp yoo dunt haf to rune it off u doent wint 2, d00d!  dun rune the gaem 4 teh rest of us!" (yes, most people I meet in the game are THAT stupid), because it's all bullshit.  I'm too tired of wasting my time arguing with morons to explain it further, but if you just take the time to use that lump of meat in your head and think for one second, you might be able to figure why being invincible is imbalanced.  --Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]]
 * I know fine well what maintainable invincibility is imbalanced. My suggestion is perfectly acceptable, meaning that people don't have to perma, and suffer no drawbacks, whereas people who plan to perma do suffer drawbacks. I betcha, people like you complain about the Smiter's Boon slaughter, yet you actively encourage aNet to destroy this skill. Simple fact of the matter is that permas would be replaced with eles that can mitigate all damage anyway, and deal more damage anyway. Oh yes, SC already depends on ConS to work. 89.242.137.148 14:17, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Try reading Jette's post again. King Neoterikos 15:12, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "hurr having to buy cons is a drawback"


 * cool story bro. Anyway, I don't complain about smiter's boon because smiting prayers never should have existed in the first place. Their method of handling the skill was terribad and it didn't fix anything, but it was a step in the right direction in regards to smiting.  And you're right, invincible earth elementalists are pretty imbalanced as well, but they're nowhere close to as invincible as a shadow form assassin is.  Moreover, Obsidian Flesh has a genuine drawback -- you move much slower while you're under the effects of it.  Using OF to clear stuff in the UW is actually pretty slow.  I don't think people should be able to clear entire areas of a part of the game that's supposed to be "elite" solo anyway, but that's an issue for another time, I guess.  Finally, this skill is conceptually flawed.  Do you know what that means?  It means the skill cannot exist as it currently is and be remotely close to anything that called balanced.  Overpowered means an adjustment to the numbers would fix the problem -- scythes, for example, are overpowered because they do too much damage autoattacking.  Lower their damage and they'd be fine (wounding strike is another matter, mind you, but I digress).  Broken means a skill is overpowered in such a way that more than the numbers needs to be changed in order to fix the skill -- Weapon of Remedy, Palm Strike and Parasitic Bond are all examples of this.  Weapon of remedy is (counts on fingers) anywhere from three to six skills in one, with no cast time on a 3-second recharge for 5 energy.  Even if it stole half the health it does, it'd still be OPd.  Palm Strike is stupid because it lets you start your combo with the most powerful attacks assassins have, rather than go through the weaker lead and off-hand attacks they're "supposed" to, even though ANet doesn't enforce that restriction in any way whatsoever at all and never has.  Parasitic Bond is basically "fuck you" to anybody carrying hex removal that doesn't remove stacks of hexes (basically, you've got Divert, Expel, Convert, and Withdraw -- and who the fuck uses those?  Three of them are elite, two are terribad, and three are super-expesnive).  Finally, there are conceptually flawed skills, which cannot be balanced because their effects are so mind-bendingly overpowered (or fucking useless) that they don't give a rat's ass about things like recharge or cast time or drawbacks.  Examples on the overpowered side are Wail of Doom, our friend Shadow Form, Order of Apostasy (lol prot?  wtf is that), and Aura of the Lich (you notice a lot of these are necro and assassin skills?).  On the underpowered side, we've got things like Elemental Flame, a skill which does... absolutely nothing, Illusion of Haste, the only running skill in the game that slows you down, and Brambles, a skill that basically just gives +1 to RC.  Conceptually flawed means the skill balance team says (lol, a team, yeah right) "this skill blows, let's make something now out of it" (think Otyugh's Cry and Peace and Harmony, before their buffs) or "holy crap, nobody's running anything but this, quick, let's fix it" (too many examples to name).  --Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 15:29, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, you're right. Enjoy my new suggestion!

If you really want to balance Shadow Form, you simply need to remember what assassins are built to do. An assassin is supposed to jump into the middle of a group of enemies, get a few attack chains off, and get out of there before they get their ass kicked. SF is meant to give the assassin temporary invincibilty so he may get his attack chain off at the cost of his Elite skill. Just drop the duration down to seconds, keep the recharge at 45 seconds, remove the health penalty, and have the skill become disabled for 45 seconds whenever it activates. The duration is low enough not to allow the assassin to survive an entire fight, while still lasting long enough to get a few attack chains in. Removing the health penalty means the assassin actually has time to get out of the fight once the spell wears off. Having the skill become disabled means the skill cannot be maintained permanently while simultaneously allowing it to remain a spell and giving it decent recharge. The damage penalty can then be adjusted as necessary to balance the skill.  Blood Red Giant   Mani Mortus  19:32, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

SF is not very useful in general pve with h/h(h/h>>pugs). The only problem is that SF-using builds are best for farming. So why dont just add Tranquility and Nature's Renewal to most common farming areas-UW,Fow,DoA,Urgoz,Deep.95.84.144.226 15:44, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Because both of those skills are incredibly annoying to every team type, to the point that I don't like to use any of my characters there because a 4-second attunement ticks me off like you would not believe, and an attunement that only lasts 30 seconds is even worse. --Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 19:49, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

At WS=0 it reduce only by 20%-its kill SF, do nothing with attunement(use 20% ench mod) and a bit annoying, but not deadly to obsy,600,55. Also it will be indirect buff to warriors, who are inferor in tanking to perma. 77.37.146.132 18:49, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Invinciblity has still been going on, seriously, the only way to get rid of Speed clear is to nerf shadow form. Elite areas being completed incredibly fast with ease. Please just nerf this skill, there's been many suggestions here but I shouldn't get my hopes up. It's Anet after all. Adding more skills to the mob would make the normal Balanced-way (which no one even runs anymore) even more difficult, all thanks to Shadow form. Just nerf this. (OrganizedOP 01:59, 25 June 2009 (UTC))


 * No suggestions that are posted in the mainspace of this wiki will be looked at, or taken into consideration by ArenaNet. If you wish to make a suggestion to the developers, please wait until the new Feedback namespace is opened (hopefully around the 1st of July) and post your suggestions following the instructions that will be given. This talk page is ONLY for the content of the article, not for debating the playability of the skill. --[[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px | Wyn's Talk page]] Wyn 06:41, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

What about making Shadow Form just that, a Form? Change it to function identically to Derv forms. Maybe even change the character to a different model. Let it last like 30 seconds, and disable for like 40. Take out the damage reduction in PvE, or at least reduce it. 76.10.137.200 09:42, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Here's what i think would make this alot more balanced. Instead of this skill making attacks miss, make it block all attacks. That way, attacks that are unblockable can acually hit, like shattering assault =]. Sox11 16:54, 30 June 2009 (UTC)User_talk:Sox11
 * I always wanted Shadow Form to be like a Dervish form, but instead it turned you into an Abyssal. --Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 20:57, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

What is that hand its wierd.,.


 * I doubt Anet will remove the perma option since EotN added two ways to do so, I doubt that was just overlooked. And in a way it's a nice mechanic. Also while half the players may hate the option, the other half embraces it, so either way people would get angry. Some possible changes would make sense. One is to simply increase the damage reduction (even to 100%) so it gets restricted to being a tank skill (though it could still deal a little damage through mass degen, radiation field comes to mind), would make sense in the concept. Making all spells fail like with VoS, or changing 'miss' to 'block' would also be options though that would likely kill the skill alltogether for most purposes. The health loss part, I feel it's rather useless, particularly it being scaled since for most purposes, failing to maintain equals death either way. Question is what it's purpose would be in concept. Escape skill? Tank Invincibility? Ensuring you get your chain gets off completely? Or simply safety? For escape purposes, make a shorter duration with no drawbacks (it is an elite after all). For ensuring a chain, do not maintain. Safety? Make it only block attacks (or even 75%), and possibly make all spells fail. Tanking? Further decrease damage. But I wouldn't mind if it didn't get nerfed to oblivion, it's a very nice concept, and with some slight adjustments it could probably be a fair option. Like someone said, a perma-earth ele can do almost the same with higher damage. Might be an idea to make SF have a similar movement speed drawback, though that'd be rather unoriginal. --Tenshi Samshel 11:43, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Invincibility is a bad concept regardless of how it's implemented. If they want to make it an "ensure your chain gets off" thing, then they could just make it give you immunity to hexes, conditions, knockdowns, and interrupts for the duration (PvE only -- I think that would actually be rather balanced, because assassins are nothing compared to dervishes in PvE anyway).  Assassins have better escape skills, see Shadow of Haste for PvE, and Death's Retreat and its related skills for PvP (though if you're not being a loser and taking 7 attack skills and maybe a res on a PvP assassin, you're doing it wrong).  The skill needs a complete rework in order to be balanced.  I'm just grateful (and surprised) they haven't kept the PvE version for PvP.  --Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 17:03, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have a good suggestion.  Elite Enchantment Spell. ( seconds.) Hostile spells targeting you fail, and attacks against you miss.  <>Sparky, the Tainted 17:20, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Better:  Elite Enchantment Spell. (1⁄4 seconds.) Your Shadow Arts have double the Critical Strikes bonus [sic].  -- <font color="Black">Gah<font color="Black">_   17:24, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Better:  Elite Enchantment Spell. (20 seconds). You don't realise this skill has just been nerfed until you encounter your first mob during a droks run and get your ass kicked.  members of your party rage quit and you don't get teh monies.User_Kaoz_Sig_12.png‎]] <font color="Black">Kaoz  ''' 12:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

The skills fine anet could ya leave it plzHubbard The Dervish 00:55, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
 * All caps does not make you correct. It isn't fine.  It is practically maintainable invincibility.  That is not balanced if only a handful of skills can counter it, many are not common used because they are not usable for other purposes. StatMan 21:42, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Why care if its maintainable in PvE? Even if it is, you are limited to spells due to the recharge and energy amount needed to maintain. Its not like you can cruise through all campaigns with it. Only GOLE or Auspicious Incantation can allow you to do anything with it besides maintain it. Fact is its only practical in things like speedclears and some farms. Running with it is a joke (as in, it sucks). Only real profitable one is UW Speedclear since nerf of keg farm. PvP WAS the problem, that's fixed now. Its not ruining PvE like it used to, and its only really effective with a conset already! Why do you need to change this more!? It can hardly do anything super profitable like the old days. If you nerf it again, you might as well take it out of GuildWars. Its a fun little thing to do when your bored, go do a SpeedClear or farm some raptors. But thats just about all you can do! Dont take this little tiny piece of fun when you know you've nerfed it pretty good. It doesnt need another one, unless Izzy can do it right AGAIN. But I can't think of any nerf that wouldn't make the skill useless. Good luck with this one.70.164.111.158 08:59, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You have highlighted all the problems. If you are a sin, and want to use it PvE with your group, they have to be aware of it.  There are only a handful of uses for it.  I think they should make it more of a recovery skill,  like shadow refuge "For X seconds, you have very good health regen and +1 energy regen.  While this enchantment is active, you cannot be the target of hostile spells or attacks, neither can you attack or use hostile spells.  you move 25% slower.  when it ends, gain some (~100 at 15) hp."  Make it like Ether prism or obsidian flesh.  StatMan 13:52, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

signets and aoe can penetrate it, and its not even commonly used anymore, its just something to use for a little bit of fun, no need 4 explainations like OVERPOWERED and NEEDS NERFING.Hubbard The Dervish 00:53, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Lol, when was the last time you played the game? King Neoterikos 00:56, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

im just saying Hubbard The Dervish 16:22, 26 July 2009 (UTC)


 * All I hear is people crying that their 330 ele is no longer the tank of choice, get over it. There is and will always be "invincible builds" They are needed for the only real part of guild wars left that you QQers have not complained into boring; DoA. I personally dont want to go back to 4h+ with a obsy war or 330 ele. That just ruins any fun value for the tanks. Leave sf alone. AlysWarder 00:10, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Change it entirely
Rework the skill entirely Shadow Form: 15 energy 1 second cast 90 second recharge Elite Form. For 30 seconds all your assassin attributes are raised by 3 and you have 75% chance to attacks and all conditions and hexes end 50% faster on you. When this skill ends you lose 50% of your health.

PvP version 15 energy 1/2 second cast 60 second recharge Elite Form. For 15 seconds all of your assassin attributes are raised by 3 and you attack 25% faster. When this skill ends you 50% of your current health.

This makes it viable for normal PvE usage but no more Perma Farming shit. It can also have some benefits for PvP spikes.

P.S. The form can change you like a Derv skill or it might not who cares as long as its nerfed. The Emmisary 02:14, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * ANet says they'll NEVAR!!1 nerf it. --Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 07:40, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Source?  Jonny10'' [[Image:Glob_of_Ectoplasm.png |19px]] 12:52, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Isn't Jette's word enough? Tidas 13:11, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Yea Im afraid Jette's word isn't enough. They have nerfed it before. People said they wouldn't nerf ursan and they did that too.The Emmisary 14:53, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * all they've done to it so far is change the build for upkeep and take it out of pvp, i'm still waiting for a nerf. Tidas 14:56, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * yeah do dis a form skill, dad wud be nice. wtb nerf88.244.0.32 18:15, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "We are not opposed to players using Shadow Form for farming,... we have not made it more difficult to maintain Shadow Form permanently, because this would be more likely to remove Shadow Form farming as an option for many players."


 * Isn't A-Net's word enough? -~=Sparky  User Sparky, the Tainted charr sig.PNG  (talk)  18:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not feeling ambitious atm, but if you'd like, Linsey's archive is probably full of similar statements. I think there may actually be a current topic in which she says that a SF nerf is not forthcoming. They'd rather mess around with whole zones than do the simple (and needed) nerf of perma SF. --Freedom Bound 18:36, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Here, they say that they will leave SF alone, but they will keep a close eye on speed clears C4K3 [[Image:User_C4K3_Signature.jpg]] Talk 18:37, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Functionality change
The main problem we all see (I think) with this skill, is that it allows sin to tank with little efforts in high end area thus rendering tank class useless. Here is an idea that would still keep the sin invulnerable but prevent the farming abuse. Elite Enchantment Spell. For 5...18...21 seconds your character diseapper, only a shadow remain and enemies cannot see you.

This way the skill would work a bit like Hide or Feign Death, mobs would not hold aggro around sin, just iggnoring him. AoE spells used to farm will be useless as the mobs would still be wandering normaly in the map. Sins would still be able to run people through area without being targeted by any monster but not aggroing any mobs would mean the end of SF farm exploit leaving the tank/aggro job for real tank class. -M3G-194.2.20.67 07:44, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No, the main problem we all see is that being invincible is a bad concept. If Blizzard let people use power overwhelming on BNet, do you honestly think StarCraft would have gone anywhere as a game?  Let me help you with that:  NO.  However, your skill idea, while obviously hard to program, is kind of cool, and I believe it would be best implemented by causing all creatures you regard you as an ally for the duration, thus making it impossible for you to damage them in any practical way.  That would be fun, and I could have an easier time taking screenshots of monsters.  Again, though, this would be hard to program and overall not worth the effort, when changing 21 to 5 takes so much less time.  --Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 09:42, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Shadow Form shouldnt be nerfed further. --<font color="Red">Super <font color="Blue"> Igor  [[image:User Super Igor siggy.jpg|19px]] <font color="Black">flame my shove sin bar!  10:11, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * SF, 600/Smite, 55hp, everything should be nerfed gone in my opinion. -- -Ch  ao  s-   14:57, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I usually don't care if something is overpowered as long as it doesn't affect my playing experience. However, 600/Smite and Shadow Form surely do. 600/Smite takes out the fun of grouping for most dungeons; I don't mind the farming build for soloing, but it is interefering in the team making, so I think it should be hit (and I'm a Monk player...). Shadow Form too, other day my guildies called me to do the Aataxe ZBounty, and guess what, to my surprise I was just called to LEECH because the Assassin did it all alone. No fun, really. Shadow Form is lame no matter how pretty people try to paint it - it's a bad and degenerate skill. Speed clears suck ass, it's filling party search in ToA, DOA, it's very difficult to find any balanced team to have some fun.--Sensei 20:00, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I totally agree with you Sensei. IMHO if someone can solo farm a 8 person area (esp. in HM) then there's something seriously wrong with the game.  PLEASE fix it ArenaNet Combatter 15:58, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Not to get on the Whole Usan thing again but it did allow any profession get into duneons and elite missions. Now its just set to 2 specific ones.  Would anyone say Anet has favortism over monks and assassins? Panzer 21:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I would say it's more likely ANet has no fucking clue of what they're doing and/or simply doesn't care. --Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 22:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll shoot for the doesn't care, and double standard for thier guys who play the game. Panzer 22:36, 26 August 2009 (UTC)