Feedback talk:Skill update previews/20110523

Q.Q
this update makes me sad nerf the dervish more then buff para please74.90.248.244 00:04, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

lol it took them 1 year to update dervishes and now they want to smiter's boon them? way to go anet 79.31.92.126 18:32, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Speaking of Smiters, when are Smiters due an update? It's mentioned in the 'upcoming changes and features' section right after Derv buffing/nerfing, c'mon Anet, you can do it! I believe in youuu! QuQ 83.33.126.147 06:54, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Aura of copy/paste
AS of 2011/05/18, the difference in the description of Aura of Thorns and Aura of Thorns(pvp) look huge. Yseron - 83.203.178.129 18:45, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * . &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  19:30, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm still looking for it in the description. Yseron - 83.196.129.7 19:59, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Mad, they changed the order: now it applies cripple and, when it ends, bleeding. From tomorrow it will apply bleeding and, when it ends, cripple --151.59.184.121 06:27, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

These changes will remove dervishes from competitive play.
They're no longer better than warriors at anything. Your last developer update said that you didn't want to remove dervs from play; it's good to see that you know your game. Regards. &mdash; Raine Valen    19:32, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't see how this will remove Dervs from play. [[Image:User Anvil_God_AsuraSignature.jpg|15px]] Anvil   God  19:58, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Dervishes can do so many things at the same time, that I doubt nerfs to extremely overpowered skills will ruin the entire class. ;) If anything, this won't still be enough. 84.90.202.144 21:02, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * What can dervishes do better than warriors, now? &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  21:20, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * How about cracked armor, easy access to crippled & burning on demand with AoB? --[[Image:User_Chieftain_Alex_Chieftain Signature.png]] Chieftain  Alex 21:23, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Dervs' access to cripple won't make up for their weak pressure value (no more perma-ias, unless they're using Pious Fury, in which case their DW frequency drops to near-nothing). Neither will burning, when an axe warrior autoattacks twice as fast on demand, and can Shock, Bull's and dchop.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  21:28, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Dervishes can spam aoe conditions and aoe high damage, and at a high frequency. Which is what they were supposed to do in the first place. The fact that they have been better warriors than warriors themselves is only a balance issue that was making warriors totally useless in the first place.
 * AoE conditions are cool, except the only two that are worthwhile are cripple and cracked armor. Remember how GvG teams used to feature an air ele and a cripshot ranger?  Yeah, that still works.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  22:39, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Thing is, warriors have been overshadowed by the new dervs. If warriors can come back at being the best at what they do, then that would be ideal. Dervishes have enough alternative options. Even after this update, dervs are still better at applying cripple (and, of course, CA), better at bar compression (onslaught and AoB will remain strong), and they still have IAS without serious penalties. Etc. 84.90.202.144 00:36, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd probably run frenzy over all those 'no drawback' IAS, 6 second recharge HoF is horrible. +25% adrenaline gain on balth means it still takes 4 swings to light up HoF instead of 3 so I'm not sure it's worth it anymore95.245.97.189 05:48, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Teardown functionality, melee power struggles
Dervishes need to bring something unique to a team for them to be viable over Warriors, this much is true; this does not mean they should have an edge over Warriors. This is the biggest problem (and the inherent flaw in having multiple melee classes): given a choice between one of two melee fighters, the one which is stronger is going to see more use, or monopolize frontline outright. Before it was Warriors because they were able to do more and do it more consistently; the pre-update Dervishes did little to nothing except packets of high damage, which wasn't good enough of a reason to abandon Warriors' utility of knockdowns and melee interrupts—both of which could prevent a team wipe or cause a break in your opponent's defenses, often winning games. No one brought Dervishes because they were a liability to the team composition; the gains didn't outweigh the losses in any application. The update didn't correct the deficit. It inverted it.

The updated Dervish has innumerable advantages over the Warrior, but here are the largest imbalances that stand out:
 * The ability to prevent the effectiveness of linebacking on himself. More to the point, you can't lineback Dervishes at all.  Warriors shouldn't have an instant-cast, self-targeting Aura of Stability or PBAoE blinds or self-contained Guardians to shrug off tactical defense and steamroll through any- and everything.  Neither should Dervishes.
 * The ability to continue interrupting, pressuring, and snaring even when blinded. This is an inherent problem with flash enchantments, but at the least, all of his teardown attack skills should have the functionality reworked to include the clause "...this attack removes one enchantment if it hits."  There's little reward for blinding him or blocking the attack if you're still going to suffer his teardowns—which account for a significant portion of his pressure.  You blinded him at a tactical time and prevented an attack skill from landing, but what difference does it make?  He's just going to start beating on his target again in a few seconds anyway because it's still snared (and degening, besides) from the teardown; regardless, the adrenaline cost is so low and he gains it back so fast it doesn't have the same reward as blinding evisc or devham—or anything else a Warrior does.
 * Flash enchantments and the rework to the concept of teardowns nullified the drawback of having to sacrifice an enchantment for an additional bonus. That was what made Dervishes unique while also balanced in their functionality: they could gain great bonuses at the cost of sacrificing the current benefits of their active enchantments.  There's no sacrifice anymore because most flash enchantments literally do nothing (or the effect is totally negligible) while they're active, and now they grant bonuses when they're removed.  The system of "make a sacrifice, reap a reward" has been replaced with "receive bonuses for receiving bonuses."  Fulfilling teardown conditions in general is so outrageously available—incredibly low recharge, instant cast time, and practically free (Mysticism + 4 pips of energy regen + doesn't need energy for anything else)—that all of the teardown functionalities, which appear to be conditional bonuses, are effectively built-in, static functionalities of the skills.  Wearying Strike doesn't cause a deep wound if anything.  It causes deep wound.  Twin Moon Sweep doesn't strike twice if anything.  It always strikes twice and there's never a moment when you won't be able to capitalize on that.  The same is said for every other conditional teardown: you will always be able to meet the condition and there are no drawbacks or difficulties in doing so.  If the system of "receive bonuses for receiving bonuses" is intended to be kept, it needs to be much harder to meet the conditions, or the conditions need to be met less frequently.  Longer global cooldown on flash enchantments, more energy investment, less damage, shorter or harder to maintain conditions, something.
 * Dervishes can shut down Warriors, but Warriors can't shut down Dervishes. Because a Dervish effectively can't be knocked down and blindness only partially hampers him, whereas Warriors have no self-contained KD prevention and blindness renders them useless, Dervishes beget more Dervishes; as Dervishes became prevalent, Warriors became less useful, so more Dervishes were being brought, which caused more blindness and more snares being thrown around, which hampered Warriors even more—to the point where a Warrior, now, is all but useless.  If he isn't blinded or snared from the Dervish alone, he's still fighting the uphill battle against the rest of a team's defenses—like the newly buffed Blinding Flash.  Even if they could get through to do their jobs, they can't provide the same pressure output as a Dervish by any means.  Power creeping has edged Warriors completely out of play.

Whenever the meta includes more than two of the same class on a team, that class is currently overpowered. I hope this begins to illustrate why and in what ways—and how these minor numerical tweaks don't address the issues. 72.74.247.100 03:01, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
 * 10/10. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  16:55, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
 * They probably should nerf all dervish AoE condition to adiancent range only, like balthy's burning, nerf harder eda (maybe reworking it into an anti lineback tool, applying blind only to melees attacking you) and cloak dust. Crippling sweep should be the most viable way to inflict cripple, so the dervish actually has to hit to snare, not some flash aoe cripple. Killing his IAS is not the solution in you plan to keep the dervish in pvp imo. 79.40.101.174 11:28, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that Fleeting, shield of force, dust cloak & dust aura needs reworking, however Dev Hammer destroys dervishes. Also the blindness thing, is only if you run wind prayers spec. If you have Fleeting + Dust Cloak, you will have no points for wind unless you want no IAS. WS as a heavy damaging skill, it would have been better to keep the old version and have deep wound cover bleeding (>.> how many times do I have to say this when discussing dervs). The only really problem with this update is that Lyssa Haste is still a big problem. It interrupts twice, basically, and it should really have a 1/2 sec cast time instead of being a flash enchant. 108.68.162.31 15:42, 21 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Nope, Arenanet's current plan is to occasionally (lol bi-monthly) feed the majority of RA/PvE players with funny outrageously random buffs to shake up/life support their stale game a little. This takes little effort and give big results.
 * They don't want to spend time giving the dervish skills that are in line with already existing skills, that'd ruin people's excitement when the update goes live, no we're aiming at low-energy fast-casting fast-recharging every-situation high-utility skills that overshadows other options. To then slowly react to it after a delay of 3-or-so months.
 * So until then I'm gonna enter RA and get "Lol Ino Dervs R Op" and "XxReaperof DeathX" run up on me and hit me in the hundreds with dumb shit. Just like so many dumb shit builds before, these will go the same way. Eventually these numbers will go down enough for people to stop using the skills, rather than balancing them, because Arenanet don't wanna put effort in it. -Cursed Angel File-User Cursed Angel Signature3.jpg 14:56, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Nice OP for this section. Pretty much agree with it all. As for Dev hammer destroying dervishes, most dervs I see are running Grenth's Aura+Avatar. Who cares if you put weakness on a derv when they're still going to hit you for ~30 life steal with every attack anyway? 80.42.205.123 17:06, 29 May 2011 (UTC)