User talk:Raine Valen/Mass Balance/Assassin/Skills/Deadly Arts

General Discussion
For the most part, I like a lot of the changes. Only one or two skills look boring or unchanged, but I would love to see assassins have more skills like these. ~Shard  22:27, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Preparations for non-Rangers
No. Vili &#x70B9; 00:48, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Why not? It fits from a lore/flavor perspective and works well from a balancing perspective.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  01:02, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Call it something else. Preparations are one of the defining characteristics of Rangers, the way non-sucky non-Beast Mastery shouts used to be for Warriors. Even if mechanics are functionally similar, giving them separate names helps maintain class distinctions. It's an aesthetics thing. Vili &#x70B9; [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 01:07, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If you do the Status page writeup for the new-named preparation (only one can be active at a time, etc.), add it to the Index, and all the wikiwork, I'll gladly change them to something else. I mean, I don't care what they're called as long as it, again, fits from a lore/flavor perspective and works from a balancing perspective.  Preparations just conveniently happened to already exist.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  01:20, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Do what you want Raine, but if you feel the need change what these types of skills are called a remember this. Preps have no aftercast so if your intention was for these skills to not have an aftercast you have two options.  One you can make the skill-type have no aftercast or you can subtract 1 second from each of the cast times to counteract an aftercast.  Just something to think about, but in the end it's YOUR opinion/idea being put forth.~>Sins  WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 03:25, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * only proph preps do not have aftercast - Wuhy  [[Image:User_Wuhy_sig.jpg|18px]] 04:09, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * They're all parameters that are set somewhere; they're not intended to have an aftercast, so, if Vili creates another name (and, thus, another Status) for it, then it's simply a matter of writing "Whateverthsesskillsarecalled do not have an aftercast" somewhere in the page detailing the mechanic.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  19:54, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You also have to consider the Scout's Insignia and Prepared Shot. I'd rather not see more R/A and A/R baddies running around. I don't really understand why they are not just skills. Vili &#x70B9; [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 17:26, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Skills stack, preparations don't.
 * That, exactly. Also, sign pl0x.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  18:16, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Raine's Proposal
Your preparation idea is brilliant. I really like this and Disrupting Dagger. Does dancing daggers mean you can open a chain with an offhand, or just that they can be followed by a dual? ~Shard  22:27, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Whenever you hit with an off-hand attack, you get a lead marker (instead of the off-hand marker), meaning that you can use skills that must follow a lead attack after using an off-hand attack; most off-hand attacks would be able to follow off-hand attacks under this preparation. You'd (for the most part) still have to open with a lead attack, though.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  23:23, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * My reaction, assuming I'm not wrong in remembering off-hand attacks are more powerful than lead attacks, is something like WHOA BITCH. If the numbers are too high, dshotting this becomes a big priority for the other team. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 17:01, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Most off-hand attacks are also piss weak. Jungle Strike is the only one that really does big damages, and that's conditional.  I think there's one that inflicts DW, though.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  17:27, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Golden Fang Strike inflicts DW if the user is enchanted. Funnily enough, it already has a 4-second recharge.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  03:28, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Raine's Proposal
I think this might be problematic on casters. I'd use it on my monk (ZB!).  Raine  - talk  21:01, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Change to assassin skills, then. Alternatively, make the activate/recharge time scale with DA (% maybe?). -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 17:04, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I prefer scaling with DA to making it only sin skills. Then it's not as fun.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  17:24, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Scales with DA now. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  22:06, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Raine's Proposal
Your preparation idea is brilliant. I really like this and Dancing Daggers. ~Shard  22:27, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I especially like how it discourages 12345; if you play like that, you miss opportunities for the bonus effects of several preparations. For example, with this prep, it'd be more advantageous to hit with a lead attack, then wait until your target is casting to interrupt them with your off-hand.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  23:23, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem I see is the assassin becomes basically useless for a period of time if he waits to use his preps effectively. Maybe there could be an off-hand attack that has no recharge and does something like damage just to trigger these things? And some way of getting around the lead/offhand/dual marker, to a point, would be nice. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]]  17:06, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * There's over 9000 touch skills that count as lead/off/dual attacks nao. I thought that'd help to break the traditional bonds a bit.
 * Also, a lot of off-hands have really tiny recharges - most of them are between 4 and 10. Fox Fangs is 6 and unblockable - fair for an int that does +20 +35 earth damage, especially when you can follow it up with a dual (which usually has a significantly longer recharge).  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  17:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I was thinking fox fangs would be your main damage offhand, though, which makes the player choose between "do I kill him or do I interrupt him" - not a fun choice. Maybe I'm wrong, though. I do like the way these changes are going, tbh. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 17:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Something like that imo. Or run Mobieus Strike and make people cry.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  22:26, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * NOOOO don't change my lovely Ddagger :x Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] *poke*  06:10, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Raine's Proposal
I would suggest changing it to "your Assassin touch skills...." in order to prevent unexpected synergy with other professions. Erasculio 18:20, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Poison/Cripple Rending Touch? Blackout?  Throw Dirt?  Vampiric Touch?  I really don't see it being an issue, except maybe with Palm Strike (post-change); and then, it's consuming your prep slot.  Bar compression gets kinda nasty like that, tbh.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  18:45, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Just as a safety net. I don't know what other changes you are going to propose, but limiting the skill from its beginning would be safer (for example, Critical Strikes wasn't bad with swords or axes, but when Arena Net added scythes, there went balance). Erasculio 18:52, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Then it's not as fun.
 * The issue with critscythe and escape scythe is that scythes and spears are the only weapons that don't suffer from primary attribute compensation - scythe mastery works just fine without Mysticism; spear mastery without leadership. Bows don't work without expertise, hammers/swords/axes are meh without strength, and daggers do like 4 dps without crit strikes.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  19:10, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Raine's Proposal
This is one of my favorite reworks. How d'you feel about it, community? I think the timing may need to be adjusted; I think 2s or 4s would be better than 3s.  Raine  - talk  21:01, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Raine's Proposal
I'm not sure expose defenses would work in GW, based on the order of things done in combat. The game determines blocking and missing, THEN criticals. You could, however, do "Whenever you critical, your next attack is unblockable." ~Shard  22:27, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Not quite as fun (and it also doesn't make quite as much sense), but I suppose it does have to work mechanically. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  23:23, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Is this now going to be an IAS at 16+ DA? :P -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 22:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 1%! [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  22:26, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Raine's Proposal
Impale shouldn't be interrupt speed. ~Shard  22:27, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I slowed it down to Agonizing Chop speed. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  23:23, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Raine's Proposal
This is one of my favorite reworks. How d'you feel about it, community? I think this may get out of hand on assassin secondaries, especially warriors packing both this and Bull's. There's a good reason why warriors don't have cripple. However, I'm thinking that the energy cost may be prohibitive.  Raine  - talk  21:01, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I like the idea of punishing bad players, but you don't want to also punish good players. 1/4 cast makes this incredibly easy to land, moreso with an IMS. Good players can press esc when then see a bull's coming and avoid it. Increasing cast time to 3/4 or 1 would make it balanced and still fun to use. The "Crippled if KDed" isn't really necessary imo, no one would use it for that effect. Ky  User_Ky_signature.gif kekeke  11:21, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Not on an assassin, maybe (though it could, tbh). But it gives a decent duration cripple to, say, warriors with Bull's.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  22:32, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Raine's Proposal
It's hard to say if PS will still be broken when everything else is changed. I'd say up the recharge anyway just a bit (maybe 10). ~Shard  22:27, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Old version wasn't used, why would it be used with 6 recharge? Palm Strike is pretty hard to balance anyway, I vote for a rework. Dark Morphon 12:04, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Because it can still be used with any dual; it's just not an unconditional KD with trampling ox anymore. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  17:53, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Why did you move it to Deadly? --User Ezekial Riddle bigsig.png Rid dle 17:55, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Because it had no reason to be in Critical Strikes - at most, it allowed 12/12 att splits. With it in DA now, it's going to take a moderate spec for any kind of real damage.
 * A lot of primary attributes have skills that don't belong in them "to prevent secondary abuse", which is, frankly, a balance mistake - attribute points were supposed to be a kind of limiting mechanism, but with PAs that are full of skills that do everything (Assassin's Remedy? Really?), there's little reason for players not to spec 12/12 to maximize the strength of their bar, while not losing anything.
 * For example, if warriors needed a heal on a split, they had to spec into tactics for Healsig pre-NF; this took a couple of points off of their damage (from the lack of Strength) and made a more well-rounded character. However, then came Lion's Comfort - an awesome heal/adrenaline gain skill in Strength (so paras couldn't use it, no less!); this allowed warriors to keep their full offensive spec while still being well-rounded.
 * This particular skill had little reason to be in Critical Strikes, so I moved it to DA to force an att split. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  18:07, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, so you force an attribute split AND it has the same weak-ass effect as before. Golden Phoenix Strike coupled with Grenth's Grasp is better than this, aka this is useless. Dark Morphon 09:11, 26 July 2009 (UTC) - Me - You - You - You
 * By weak-ass, you mean big, guaranteed, armor-ignoring damage and a follow-up by whatever dual you want... on a 6-second recharge? That's fairly terrible, tbh, and I can't imagine anyone ever running it over Golden Phoenix, an attack skill with all the drawbacks of such, and Grenth's Grasp, an enchantment spell that consumes your secondary and has all the drawbacks of such.  I mean, if I've got the choice of a conditional skill combo or one skill that unconditionally does just about the same thing, I'm definitely going to go for the one that's harder to pull off.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  21:05, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, the Palm Strike combo is the one that is conditional because you will have to run Horns of the Ox. Also note how you have no snare whatsoever and are running a touch skill. That's loleasy to kite from. The A/D on the other hand not only has a cripple, but also Whirling Charge which provides him with a speed boost! Furthermore, note that the only unstoppable skill on the PS combo is PS itself meaning that the rest of the combo is still vulnerable to standard melee counters. The limitation to one secondary isn't a problem either since Dervish has Whirling Charge which should work just fine. So the combo with GG is obviously a lot more powerful, the only weakness it has is Enchantment removal which isn't much of an issue anyway since you only need the enchantment for the first attack and since the enchantment is very easily re-applied. Dark Morphon 09:50, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Because sins can't go /W for an IAS and don't have the most-used IMS in the game. Owait.
 * I was plating a Zealous Vow war last night (it's so much more fun than Endurance), and enchant removal is a bitch. One enchant rip and I can't spam Power Attack and prot strike anymore.  ZV has the same stats as Grenth's Grasp, meaning that it has the same recharge as most enchant removals - one enchant strip on the opposing party and you will not be able to keep it up at all.  Now, an axe war without ZV up can still Bull's, Dismember, Frenzy, Rush, and auto-attack for 50+ damage; what can a sin with an opening attack, IAS, and IMS that do absolutely nothing if they are not enchanted do with Grenth's Grasp ripped?
 * I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to go with Palm Strike. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  15:17, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait, wait, wait. PS is conditional because you need HOTO, but GG isn't even though it needs GPS? I think I missed something here. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 16:10, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Because for GG you only need to get one attack through to pull off the combo unlike ZV which you need for everything. But let's go back in time. "woobly woobly"(<--- time travel sound). We're now in the era before the Palm Strike buff. How many people run Palm Strike? Appart from some people that want to try different shit, no-one. How many people run GG assassins? Quite a lot. Why would this be any different after your nerf? It's only 5 energy less (which sins don't care about, infinite energy ftw) and 4 recharge less (which is also not very important since it doesn't open up new combo possibilities). GG sins are still a lot more effective even though they have some counterable skills. Prove me wrong. Dark Morphon 16:08, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No, 5 energy can make a big difference - it's the difference between having to run Radiants or +5e to pull off a combo or being able to do it with Survivor's and 15^50 - that's part of why WC is so many leagues beyond Shadow Prison. On a related note, GG, Whirling Charge, and GPS give your chain a whopping 20 energy guaranteed startup cost; Palm Strike is 15 on it's worst day (IMS, PS, IAS).  K, critstrikes is godly energy.  That doesn't make a bit of difference if you get "Not Enough Energy" halfway through a spike.  "But Raine!  You can boost your energy cap!"  Personally, I'd rather have the 25 extra Health or 15% extra damage - Palm Strike gives you that advantage.
 * Sure, you only need one attack under GG to hit for the GG combo to go through, but when it's getting ripped on recharge (FC corrupt mesmers are awesome at that in TA, dom mesmers are good enough at that in HA), you're not getting GPS off in anything except maybe RA and AB (funny how the totally skill-less sin gimmicks only see low-end play, huh?).
 * PS doesn't have any drawback or common counter - it hits 99% of the time. Even though the rest of the bar is attack skills, the knockdowns being dual attacks means that Melee Counter #1 is only half as effective in preventing them - compare that to your chain having a 50% chance to fail outright IF you can keep GG up to begin with.  In fact, let's do some math.  Against a Guardianed target, Palm Strike has a 0% chance to fail and HotO has a 25% chance to fail, giving your opening KD a 75% hit rate.  Golden phoenix strike has a 50% chance to fail, and Trampling Ox has a 25% chance to fail, giving your opening KD a 37.5% hit rate.  What's more, as block rate or miss rate increases (Lightning Reflexes?  Blurred Vision?  Disciplined Stance?), a GG sin's hit rate falls even further off.
 * For the sake of argument, let's ignore the last paragraph and assume that PS + HotO = GG + GPS + TO. There's one huge, huge, huge difference - all of the "conditions" in the PS chain are within the user's control.  You can select a target that isn't adjacent to an ally (this will be most targets, in all honesty), while you don't have any say in whether or not you come up against a team with a good enchant removal.  Furthermore, and this is important, the odds of teams balling up decreases as teams get better, and the likelihood of coming up against said enchant removal increases as teams get better.
 * No one ran PS before because its cost and recharge overstepped its effect - both of those have been brought in line. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  17:38, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You actually suggest to use your combo through prots? Lol, that's retarded. My whole argument is that because of the high blocking (and thus fail for your combo) chances you will not use your combo, whether the first one is unstoppable or not. So, your Palm Strike build deals damage when you throw away your combo starter on someone that is protted anyway! That's a horrible strategy. Even if you get some damage through, it's still a lot worse than taking an unprotted target. Thus, your whole argument falls appart. Yes, Palm Strike is better if you're stupid enough to try and use your combo on a protted target, I give you that.
 * The GG build was actually not used in top levels. This because it lacks a shadow step and thus mobility and an effect of surprise. The only reason the current Palm Strike is occasionally used in top levels is because it's so ridiculously powerful and even then, only gimmick shitters use it. Your Palm Strike and this build are very comparable because both of them will never be used in top levels (particularly yours which doesn't even have a snare and starts way too slow). So yeah, what advantage does the new Palm Strike have over the GG sin? It's somewhat more reliable and only when you face people that at least have some level of play. Which is where neither will ever be used anyway.
 * No-one ever ran PS because it is a touch skill and because it has no synergy whatsoever with any dual attack that can continue your combo. You say WC is better than Shadow Prison because it is 5 energy less. That's utter bullshit. WC is better because it provides a KD immediately which allows you to make a knocklock chain, something Shadow Prison isn't capable of.
 * One last thing: I've made it myself incredibly hard because I compared two rather different bars. I should have compared it to the YAA assassin in the first place which practically has the same conditionals. As you see, this bar also has no shadowstep but does have Cripple. The difference? Not easily kited from yet deals more damage AND is faster and smoother. It's completely superior to whatever build you make with your Palm Strike. Enough proof now? Dark Morphon 10:08, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * stop fucking linking random shit -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 16:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No. You knock down the Infuse and he doesn't catch the spike, you don't pick someone else because the Infuse has Guardian on them.  You knock down the prot and they miss Spirit Bond, you don't pick someone else because the prot has Guardian on them.  That's why hammer warriors have run Magehunter's since prophs - Crushing still has the 50% chance to miss, which fucks them over for Bash, but if you can KD a key target on a spike, chances are, your team is getting a kill.  It is for this reason that axe warriors will still Bull's or Shock a target with Guardian up and ES wars will burn their 8-adrenaline elite KD on the 50/50 chance that their knockdown will go through.  Your entire first paragraph showcases something that I've said from the beginning - you're looking at it from a low-end play perspective.
 * GG isn't run because it lacks a shadow step? Mobility?  Surprise?  Protip: PS and BB sin frontline have never run a shadow step as part of any meta.  There goes that argument.
 * "That's 'part of why WC is so many leagues beyond Shadow Prison"
 * "You say WC is better than Shadow Prison because it is 5 energy less. That's utter bullshit."
 * What the hell are you talking about? You're "responding" to an argument that I didn't make or even attempt to make - how does that support your point?  In fact, what does that have to do with anything at all?
 * "It's somewhat more reliable." It's exactly twice as reliable, actually - reliable knockdown makes a huge difference; that's why warriors will exhaust half their energy pool away for a guaranteed KD.  I cannot emphasize enough how important reliability is, especially when talking about knockdown.
 * "Your Palm Strike and this build are very comparable"
 * "One last thing: I've made it myself incredibly hard because I compared two rather different bars"
 * What the hell are you talking about?
 * Here's the difference between HotO and YAA: adjacent/nearby. While finding a target that isn't adjacent to an ally is relatively easy, it's pretty bloody difficult to find one that isn't near an ally, unless you're playing AB or JQ or on a split (gg, your elite is worthless at stand).
 * In conclusion, the end. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  18:01, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That's because there only IS a low-end perspective. I'll explain why.
 * You're talking about HA here where these shadow steps are of course unneeded. Both builds you mentioned however have an unconditional, 100% of the time reliable knockdown. Your Palm Strike only opens up the way for Horns of the Ox. You tell me a reliable knockdown is important. I couldn't agree more. Horns of the Ox is obviously unreliable in HA because the maps are small and people WILL mob. You can go search for lonely targets but that's just horrible. That's why nobody in his right mind runs that skill in HA. The current Palm Strike isn't a reliable knockdown, but gives you one thanks to the Cripple. The BB sin has Backbreaker, which also isn't conditional. Your Palm Strike doesn't do that. So, in conclusion, your Palm Strike will never be used in HA. Maybe it will be used in GvG then? Unlikely. You will either want to gank there (for which you need shadowsteps) or spike. Your Palm Strike will always be inferior to WC in GvG because that build DOES have a shadow step, exactly the same conditional knockdown and also a knockdown to start with. It's therefore better on splits and better on spikes as well because it's a lot smoother and has more chance on getting crits (att split remember?). Concerning the quotes: Why are you taking these things out of context? I said they are comparable in that they will both never be used in high levels and then I said the bars are quite different. Taking those quotes out of context proves nothing at all. You then proceed to explain why YAA is bad in high levels of PvP even though I clearly stated no-one would use it there either, saying that which I already said. Conclusion: Your Palm Strike is inferior to WC and BB in HA, WC in GvG and YAA (and GG as well!) in the lower areas. Gfg. Oh, should I add that Palm Strike still requires no thought or skill to use and is still uberlame? Even if you can make it balanced power-wise in the current functionality it's still lame-ass. Perhaps that's what you should change first. To Armond: stop trolling. Dark Morphon 08:29, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, that's one of my pet peeves. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 15:10, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Raine's Proposal
Lol lame fevered dreams/fragility lameway in TA gets lamer. Ky  kekeke  19:54, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Raine's Proposal
Touching someone for a shadow step kind of negates the point. L2Chizuudance. ~Shard  22:27, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have another idea for it. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  23:23, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Current version is too easily abusable for maintainable, unstrippable, uninterruptable, free guardian on the backline with no drawback. Ky  User_Ky_signature.gif kekeke  11:31, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Lololo awesome. An unremovable fully upkeepable version of the current stance faggotry. Not a good idea. Dark Morphon 13:25, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Set the duration for Signet of Shadows at 3-5 seconds. Up the recharge to 15 and your version should be sitting pretty.~>Sins  WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 15:36, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No sins, it wouldn't. That would still be an extremely lame irremovable version of the current stance faggotry. But Raine already changed it and rightly so. Dark Morphon 08:38, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. Tell me if this next change is broken...  Raine  - talk  23:49, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 23:52, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Meh. Not super useful in a game where you don't get to choose the map. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 23:55, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Not in GvG, you don't. But even there, AT rotations, etc.
 * Also, it needs to make you drop bundle items, or flag running is just gonna be stupid. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  23:59, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Strangely enough, this might see some PvE abuse the way it is now (can't think of any situation off the top my head, but I'm pretty sure going thru walls is a bad ideas for stuff like dungeons where you need a key to advance). Of course, I'm guessing you have PvP in mind when you're making this so you might not consider this an issue Ky  User_Ky_signature.gif kekeke  00:16, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

New version looks funny :P. Dark Morphon 08:36, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Raine's Proposal
Toxic shock looks boring. Just another shock opener to falling spider that requires no skill. ~Shard  22:27, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * How would you do it? I (obviously) intended for it to be a Shock variant with a limiting factor other than Energy, but it *is* a pretty lame opener for falling animal strike.  I don't think it's broken in this form, but it does lack... fun.  I mean, compared to Entangling Asp, the design is just... meh.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  23:23, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Raine's Proposal
(I decided to actually read the page too.) Interesting rework, but it takes a while to reach a decent snare level and would probably be removed in an organized setting. The conditions seem pretty good, so maybe reverse the siphoning and start with the snare at a set value (lower than 105% at 16, lol)? Maybe not, but otherwise the time needed for a decent effect outweighs the costs in my opinion. --67.240.83.137 22:52, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think starting at 25% (that creates a 50% speed difference, which is a bit lower than a water snare) and going from there would be fine? [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  19:12, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually I was thinking of just changing the snare (50% is fine), which would give it the same relative difference but be more useful to the team. The only thing with changing this would be the fact that the snare would not last the full duration, but at that point the ims would be pretty impressive. --67.240.83.137 19:51, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't design it with "being useful to the team" in mind; water eles and rangers are for that. This is supposed to fill a different niche.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  19:53, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, I think I get what you had in mind. Ignoring most of what I said before, maybe start the snare a little higher then?  Although, that might need a cap on the snare, so it wouldn't sit at 100%.  Maybe 80%, since that would be its max at 11 deadly.  Or higher, I guess. --67.240.83.137 20:39, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * How does it look now?
 * Siphon Strength needs a similar rework. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  21:01, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's more viable now, and hopefully not op. Siphon Strength looks tricky, and reminds me of Rising Bile, so it might have some of the same issues. And yeah, this is 67.240 whatever.--salvius 21:12, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If you're gonna make siphon speed that powerful, start the snare level at 0. A ~16 second hex that slows movement from the start is just too frustrating.  ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 22:27, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm pretty dumb and didn't really think that through. Oh well. --salvius 03:57, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * So would 16 into DA mean at seconds 20 and 21 the foe doesn't move at all? ~>Sins  WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 15:37, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If it somehow lasts 20 seconds, yes. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  17:19, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Raine's Proposal
This recharges too fast. ~Shard  22:27, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll increase the recharge. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  23:23, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This x2 in Hexway = gg you have no frontline anymore. Ky  User_Ky_signature.gif kekeke  11:28, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not as bad as Weakness until like the 8th second. I think the bigger issue is sins with wtfbbq damage after it lasts for a good while.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  17:23, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Raine's Proposal
Making it Attack skills might make it abusable for scythesin/other professions. You should change it to dagger/sin attack skills only to prevent that imo. Ky  kekeke  22:18, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Warrior's Endurance++?
 * I want it to be usable on secondaries, but not lolbroken. One-dimensional skills are no fun.  I'll figure something out...  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  22:37, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Reduce energy proportional to recharge? Warrior skills tend to be short recharge if they have an energy cost. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 22:52, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "Your attack skills cost % less energy for each second they recharge (minimum 1 energy)?"
 * Seems kinda... odd. I mean, look at it on dervishes - it would be hella strong, but then they don't get to use Treeform, Wounding Strike, or .  Warriors don't have that problem - axe warriors have been running fluff elites (Take an evisc bar.  Replace evisc with Dismember and Executioner's Strike with Penetrating Chop, like prage warriors use.  How much pressure do you lose?) since... forever.  I guess, back when physicals were THE damage source, you needed Evisc to achieve lethal spike damage.  But now that midlines have 9001 spike assists, Dismember works fine.  That's the problem, really - when you have a bar that doesn't *need* something, it gives the user freedom to abuse other things without any sort of real drawback.  In the case of axe wars (and some other classes, to some extent), that abuseable thing happens to be something that every skill in Guild Wars is balanced around - Elite status. :/
 * How d'you deal with that from a balance standpoint? [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  23:16, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "How do we make warriors not abuse this elite?"


 * "elite"


 * Fix midliners so warriors are required to use evisc again.
 * -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 23:25, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You should suggestion moar. There are like 37 atts with 0 proposed changes still.  Go make up a purpose for Channeling Magic.
 * It's too bad that I can't cuntpaste this whole section once the licensing gets sorted out.
 * But back on topic.
 * Even with free attack skills, I don't think this would work like WE. WE wars could also spam non-attack skills like the plague, thanks to the energy they got from their autoattacks under Endurance.  Even with 100% reduction on attack skills, a warrior would still have to use tons of energy to keep Frenzy up (that consumes 2 pips); they sure as hell wouldn't have energy to Shadow Fang and all that crap.  Also, it *at the very least* forces an att split, something that, imo, is a big balancing factor on a class that always always always runs 12/12/leftoverpoints splits.
 * If it did need a nerf, though, I think "(Minimum of 2 Energy)" would make it balance it (5e skills costing 2e is awesome, 10e skills costing 2e is godly). Wars can't spam 2e attack skills like bad propaganda on two pips while also using energy for all of the things that wars traditionally use energy for, dervs don't get to Wounding Strike anything, Rangers...  Well, Expertise needs to be fixed before the class can even BEGIN to be balanced according to any inter-profession dynamics.
 * In conclusion, I'm leaving this as-is. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  23:41, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, the smart solution would be to have expertise factored before the direct reduction (and thus cap). -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 23:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * They're both percentile reduction; it would cap regardless of which applied first. It's not like Expert's Focus, which is direct reduction.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  23:55, 21 July 2009 (UTC)