Feedback talk:Skill update previews/20110317

Attunements
Attunements are not going to fix the elementalist. elix Omni 23:46, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
 * That is true, but at least they will be slightly less clunky to use. It's quite annoying how one profession relies so much on one single single (the attunement) to not be completely useless, and said skill is an easily strippable enchantment with long recharge times. Regardless, it's fun to see the elementalists are finally getting some attention nonetheless, and this is better than nothing. 84.90.202.144 00:09, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Attention to elementalists is good. Maybe they'll get smaller buffs with every skill update and are at the end of the year kind of viable in PvE/HM. --195.202.166.190 01:38, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * So, then they should also fix some Casttimes...--93.243.212.183 01:52, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes they should. (PvE splits with lower cast time/recharge?) --195.202.166.190 00:26, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

But Invoke Lightning is still waste of an elite compared to Chain Lightning :/ - J.P. Talk  19:34, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Attunement with 1s activation time is something good. Regarding invoke if I was doing the skill updates I would had made Invoke hit all nearby targets, reduce cooldown to 5s and remove the exauhtion part (main reason is to try to make it viable in DoA so you don't end up playing an stupid and brainless dwg build) this for pve, for pvp i would had lowered the damage and keep it to only max 2 targets (not the first skill that has major diferences in functionality in pve/pvp). I still think gole should be moved at energy storage split pve/pvp, in pve making elementalist skill do armour ignoring damage (next 0..2..3 spells) and ending (without having effect) if you use non elementalist skills or air skills (the air part not to interfer with the 25% armour penetration from most air skills), and for pvp to add +0..+2..+3 to all your attributes (including energy storage here)for your next 5 spells (in both cases activation time reduce to 1/2).Thedukesd 22:08, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

some skills that should be fixed
Some skills that should be included and what I think they should be: Contemplation of purity - removes your non-dervish enchantments only -- avatar of lyssa's dervs with every derv enchantment and spamming CoP for massive aoe conditions and energy degen is overpowered. This should be fixed. Grenth's Aura - life steal should be reduced in pvp -- grenth's aura + avatar of grenth + vampiric scythe is around 40 life stealing per hit, pretty grossly exaggerated imo, one derv can basically solo 3 wars if he/she lines them up Thoughts? YoUrMoM

Fraggggggspiiiiiiike
Thanks for the Barbed Sig change. I've been missing fragspike. Also, Signet of Suffering still non-elite? Cool, I guess. Karate Jesus   02:22, 18 March 2011  (UTC)
 * Nevermind on suffering. Forgot about conviction. Karate [[File:User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png]] Jesus  02:28, 18 March 2011  (UTC)  Ignore me. I've been out of the game for too long. Karate [[File:User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png]] Jesus   02:47, 18 March 2011  (UTC)
 * Fragility is meta, with Grenth and Balthazar dervs. If you've missed it, I'd invite you to hop on Obs. :3 -- Oiseau | User_Oiseau_Melandru.jpg 02:55, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Fragspike is different from the fragility builds with dervs. Also, I don't know about those builds because I haven't done GvG in around 3 months now. Karate [[File:User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png]] Jesus  02:58, 18 March 2011  (UTC)

I agree life steal is a pain, from a monking point of view atm, i prefer Mesmer agro over derv, atleats there is something i can do about that. WTB PARA LOVE, ANET>>>>GIVE THE PARA SOME LOVE>>>>You looked at derv and though "oo this unique and is very divers...well so is para, just log one and look how many skills are PVP nerfed, gotta be atleast half. Just give them some pve love, only pve para bar i ever see is imbagon, and trust, that gets dull after a while.82.5.153.217 07:42, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Ah, well, it was nice while it lasted...
Barbed Signet + Necrosis. No longer as useful, because with this change you will have to cast the signet into gaps in anti-spell defences to get the bleeding to enable Necrosis. As it is at the moment, the signet enables Necrosis (a non-spell skill!) to inflict bleeding before checking for a condition, much useful against Margonite Clerics (Spell Breaker) and the various annoyances that cast Obsidian Flesh... But no more, bah. Cynique 04:42, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Barbed Signet wouldn't be affected by anti-spell defenses. It's not a spell. Toraen 04:55, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * And Necrosis wouldn't be affected by Spell targeting prevention. It's not a spell. What are you smoking Cynique?! ^_^ --Falconeye 05:05, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm well aware that Necrosis is an untyped skill. Indeed, that's more or less the point.  The old way, you cast Barbed Signet on yourself (not affected by foes' defences), then you cast the non-spell Necrosis straight through the foes' defences.  Barbed Signet makes Necrosis cause bleeding then check for a condition, yadda yadda.  The new way relies on Barbed Signet to produce the bleeding directly on the foe(s).  I hadn't realised that signets can pass through anti-spell defences.  OK, that will teach me to read properly.  Of course, it's still less flexible, because of the fact that old-Barbed-Signet+Necrosis passes the bleeding to whatever foe I hit with Necrosis, while new-Barbed-Signet+Necrosis allows me to use Necrosis on whatever foes I managed to make bleed (plus any other foes that my party members apply stuff to).  It's a change of emphasis, but has some interesting results.  Cynique 19:53, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It WILL make AoE skills like Oppressive Gaze more effective. --Falconeye 08:37, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Changes Feedback
Many of these are needed, and good job on them, but the changes in general still fall short of fixing issues with specific classes such as elemental damage vs HM mobs. Casting an attunement 1 second earlier isn't going to do squat to really help elementalists, though the change is still nice as the long casting time was just silly. Perhaps Player elementalists could get some sort of inherent armor reduction/armor ignoring skill in energy storage that only works in HM?

[/b]Necro changes:[/b] Signet of Corruption didn't need this change in PvE as conditions only do so much damage and can only be refreshed not spammed...not that a 20 second recharge signet can be spammed. Moving it to blood is also a nerf due to blood line still being poor. Why are you nerfing this signet?

Oppressive Gaze: Why are you reducing durations on bleeding & weakness making the skill less effective without some sort of compensating buff like lowering the energy cost to 5 or something?

Other Necro Stuff: Why can rangers use blood magic touch spells and other spells better then primary necros can? Perhaps you should add some sort of reduction in cost/recharge to life steal skills in Soul Reaping so primary necros could actually have some effective PvE blood builds. These days it's all Death & Curses being run.64.57.200.203 06:18, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Signet of Corruption isn't being changed, Signet of Suffering is. --Silver Edge 06:52, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * This is a change to address PvP issues, not PvE. -- Hong 07:17, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Although, that being said, it will be interesting to see what the Consume Soul change does to the warden rits in the Echovald Forest.... -- Hong 07:19, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Signet of Suffering Needs a better functionality.
Give meaning to the skill. Bleeding alone doesn't even sound like "suffering". It's simply not convincing. If you perhaps add poison and weakness to it, it'll give that elite skill some more depth and believability. Just my two cents. Overall though, good update! <3 --Ulterion 07:25, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Would be too much like Virulence and it is indeed quite a crappy change for an elite. If they want to put it into blood magic then at least give it a life steal or armor ignoring damage effect effect of some sort since thats what blood offence is about. Damysticreaper 15:54, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * TBH It would be better if it was more on top of that functionality, you also steal 4...12 health for every condition on target foe. It's stupid to give a non-elite's exact function to an elite. 66.61.119.166 04:22, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Now see, that is where you are wrong. They are taking a 1-shot version of the Current Barbed Signet and stapling it onto an elite signet. Not the current, repeat-use version. Strictly speaking,comparing the two, Signet of Suffering is going to be weaker than the changed Barbed Signet. At least THAT can bleed more than one victim. Guildwarsrunner 05:50, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually the new Signet of Suffering will be the old PvP Barbed Signet. Cynique 06:45, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

QQ
"We're giving a few small buffs to elementalists" -> Nerfs the only good PvE lightning elite

Please, ANet, split the skill for PvP. Or if you do nerf it, buff some of the other elites. --72.194.109.166 07:41, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * From to  DPS is a nerf how? --Irgendwer 08:13, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Minor changes to recharge aren't as important as minor changes to damage, I guess. That was worded too bitchily. OP, this is actually a buff when you take the new recharge into account. --Wormwood 08:25, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Flare@12 does 32dps. Definitely worth elite state. It's a nerf when you lower the spike potential of a spike skill. And dealing 15/30/45 substained dps is NOT elite. Edit: So the new Invoke is neither spikey nor substained dps ... 195.202.166.190 17:24, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Derp, you can cast other spells in between Invokes. Flare spam spams flare. Also armor penetration. Regardless, DPS is a useless benchmark in Guild Wars, and spike damage is everything. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 18:21, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * In PvE? --Irgendwer 23:26, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, also (or even especially) in PvE. The shorter fights are, the more inportant is spike damage. If player A is able to deal 70dps in the first 10 seconds and after that only 15dps and player B deals 40 substained dps, player A would be better in short 10-20second (PvE-)fights, player B better in longer (PvP) rounds. --195.202.166.190 00:23, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I doubt I'm as experienced as others here so I won't argue your point. In any case, DPS was probably the wrong metric for me to use. I simply meant to show that the intended change to Invoke Lightning is not entirely negative thanks to its increased spammability. --Irgendwer 01:06, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * And if the skill were to be split... then buff the PvE version further. Yes, because even though it's the best air magic elite they have for PvE, it's mediocre at best when compared to other options and professions. Maybe keep the damage of the current version and the recharge of the newer version? It would be slightly better for PvE, I think. Or simply increase the damage. 84.90.202.144 00:51, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Wardens
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Warden_of_Seasons uses Consume Soul elite at lvl 16 spawning

Consume Soul: changed functionality to: "Elite Spell. You steal 5...49...60 Health from target foe. All hostile summoned creatures in the area of that foe take 25...105...125 damage."

Did anyone test how much of an effect this will have on minion / summon heavy builds in Echovald?

From what it looks like it is going to put a major damper on clears of Morostav a major area utlised for kurzick point speed vanquishes.

Vrmpsy 14:28, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Well all I can say to that is YAY! Speed clears are not normal, and the game should not be encouraging them. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  14:40, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Speed clears are as normal as any other activity, especially given the monumental effort required to max faction titles. Regardless, I'm confident that someone will come up with an alternative soon. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 15:42, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * TEF, they are account titles. If "monumental" as an argument is worth anything to you, why not give free fame to anyone entering the HA outpost? With every post it seems there is no title you did not do in a way Wynthyst justifiedly deems not normal. 88.153.105.75 16:23, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The amount of faction required for Kurz/Lux titles means something over 500 VQs. Speed clearing is a normal human reaction to that level of effort. But it's not as simple as entering the HA outpost; it's still work, it's still grind.


 * Calling one method of title grinding normal and another not normal is a value judgment that I don't care to make (if we want to go that route, I know some purists who believe that using PvE-skills are abnormal ways of playing). I still prefer pursuing titles the old fashioned way, but I can also respect the work that goes into acquiring a title. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 16:38, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Anyone who earns faction outside of Alliance Battles is a cheater. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 16:39, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Define "normal" please, something you don't happen to like in the game? If the only way for a PvE player to acquire points for the Kurzick title track is to utlise an efficient build whether solo or in a group then that is well within the specified parameters for gameplay. If it was deemed to be an issue then the Live Team would of assessed it and altered it.  As it stands now in PvE there are very little avenues for pursuing this title track in a resonable timeframe.  Personally I have tried AB and CM and most of what I do is stand around waiting for the timer to tick down and then nothing happens due to lack of players in my timezone.  This is a skill that has been altered for PvP but has a direct impact on PvE, I still want to know if the testers assessed this. Vrmpsy 01:11, 19 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I will tell you'all what this new version of Consume Soul will do: this will instantly shutdown/killoff summoned creatures controlled by any non-Necromancer/non-Ritualist that isnt using 12+ ranks in Death Magic/Spawning Power and isnt spamming Blood of the Master/Summon Spirits every 6 seconds. It also means no more easy Cold As Ice-exploit using a 0-rank Consume Soul. ^_^ --Falconeye 07:59, 19 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Am I the only one who found both alliance titles easy as hell to max!? I like competitive missions, I got them by just doing a lot of CM, not doing it for the title, but as something that just happened to occur on the side. I'm not one to purposely grind titles anyways. Previously Unsigned 13:24, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Wounding Strike + Reapers sweep
Anyone looking at those skills so they can be viable in gvg? I'm sick of AoG, this nerf is not gonna change anything. Wounding strike should be changed back to what it use to be. It was not the most powerful skill on the derv by any means, only the most usable. Reapers sweep should be changed back but with less +damage obviously, somewhere along the lines of +1..25..31. Also, invoke nerf! yay :) 99.23.134.216 03:38, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the new Wounding Strike is stronger than the old. Removing enchants is a bonus if used correctly, not a drawback. And it's also the most spammable and readily available skill they have to rend their enchants - to the point that with it, you don't need any more enchant-stipping attacks in your bar. It's awesome, and people only don't use it because all the cool kids want to use grenth grenth grenth grenth grenth grenth grenth, and if you do not use grenth grenth grenth grenth grenth grenth grenth, you will be laughed at by the elitists, because pvx says dervishes must only use grenth grenth grenth grenth grenth grenth grenth. And we all know how pvx dictates everything.
 * I've made a decent build that works and still I want it to be changed back. It is a liability because some enchants are much better on you than it being removed. The only way to deal deep wound is to remove and it makes all the good enchants like harriers grasp, rending aura, intimidating, and a few others pointless. Reaper's sweep is just bad, dervs don't need kd. 108.76.77.148 16:26, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I myself find WS to be superior in use than grenth and enjoy using it together with staggering force or dust cloak to deal a powerful blow. Altough grenth combines nicely with it's namesake aura with lot's of lifesteal i still don't prefer using it over WS. In PvP i have owned grenth dervs with my WS build with ease. As with reaper sweep, well KD is the thing the dervish lacked and an ideal sollution to end it's endless rivalry with wich skill does better DW with wounding strike. Altough in it's current form is still loses out a bit due to the lack of damage it deals. But one thing is certain, both skills should not be reverted since you will get te same problem again as before the update, a useless and endless rivalry between wich skill is better in it's function for dw and dps wich ws will win. Damysticreaper 17:00, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Why would there be a rivalry between the 2 skills? I'm pretty sure that everyone knew that ws was better. Grenth runs much better because of the life steal and variability of the build. Reaper's was the derv's best spike skill, now its.. weak. Derv's never needed kd, its like the cripslash build. No need for bull strike, cripple does the job well enough. I'm just talking from a pvp stand point. 99.115.65.174 19:00, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Is it just me or is the Consume Soul change plain silly?
I for one can instantly see that this is a skill that will NOT be used by players. -Someone that plays rit as only char.
 * Never used it and never will because it's a skill the ritualist cannot use because it does not fit in the play style of the rit and also because it's in the wrong attribute line for it. Direct damage skills should all go to channeling and not spawning power since those who use channeling for damage will unlikely use the spawning power attribute since it offers no support for it. If anet wants this skill to be used it should be an elite that the ritualist coud use and fits the play style. Damysticreaper 11:43, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * This is a pvp update, and Consume Soul was a hard counter to any spirits. A blood necro bar in GvG can have any optional elite, so taking this would mean spirits essentially couldn't be used. Cheapy 18:12, 20 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Consume Soul isn't split for PvP; this affects the PvE version. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 19:02, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The update was OBVIOUSLY aimed at GvG.--83.82.62.210 19:26, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the Developer Notes on the update makes it clear enough that these changes were aimed for GvG, given that the update is a direct consequence of the last mAT. --<font size="3" face="Joan"> Oiseau | User_Oiseau_Melandru.jpg 19:28, 20 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm sure the intent is aimed at GvG. But the post-release notes always specify if a skill change is PvE,PvP, or both. So either the notes are inaccurate or they are not splitting the skill, which will have powerful consequences for PvE. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 19:38, 20 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Indeed, it does. The Mallyx runs especially; I just do not believe that was the impetus. --<font size="3" face="Joan"> Oiseau | User_Oiseau_Melandru.jpg 19:43, 20 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Elite version of Spiritual Pain for a Ritualist primary... It even has the same progression of damage for the aoe effect. Lower single target health loss, but rit steals health. Slightly lowered recast in pve. Its basically the same skill, both will be/are barely used by players in pve due to the lack of utility versus pve mobs. IMO not worthy of elite status in the primary attribute line of a ritualist, where as any profession has access to generally the same skill without having to use an elite slot or be a ritualist. A split would seem more logical than this type of change. Discuss 01:26, 21 March 2011 (UTC)


 * If they do then, Consume Soul needs to be an elite version of a hybrid-bar compression-verions of Spirit Boon Strike and Spiritual Pain; in addition to the single target lifesteal. --Falconeye 01:58, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Hey look, now there are even less counters to Sway in HA! 94.6.54.123 10:52, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

"Some PVP issues"
Will the skills be changing for PvE too, then? Idmz 22:49, 20 March 2011 (UTC)


 * PvE/PvP splits are included on the page (see Barbed Signet and Fevered Dreams). So, yes, all of the changes but the Masochism and Fevered Dreams changes will affect PvE according to the page. <font color="#0AA">–~=<font color="#0AA">Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png <font color="#0AA">(τѧιк)  &larr;&hearts;– 01:42, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I figured as much. I was just trying to note the inconsistency of what they said on the preview. Idmz 15:21, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

PVE/PVP split
What about spliting Avatar or Grenth into a PVP and PVE version. I am a PVE dervish doing vanquishes, and the damage output is on par with the difficulty.
 * The lifesteal is only being reduced by two points and the disease by 2 seconds, for each enchantment lost. As long as you're not predicating your team on Grenth dervishes, the overall DPS of your team and your, in my opinion all the more crucial, self-preservation abilities as AoG should not be significantly affected in PvE - especially given the AI's tendency not to scatter units to scythe damage. --<font face="Joan"> Oiseau | User_Oiseau_Melandru.jpg 04:24, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Problem is, it's already 5 points lower than it used to be. The whole Disease thing is somewhere between beyond and useless in PvE so this is just another nerf to something that was in no way too good in PvE. 88.153.105.75 17:14, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * By the way, it's reduced by 3 points 88.153.105.75 17:15, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Fevered Dreams
Epic daze spamming is the problem. Still op with dervs.--61.219.36.142 13:30, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * And reducing it's duration doesn't solve it's problem either with Mantra of Persistence. Damysticreaper 13:38, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * 20 seconds recharge means a decent ranger can keep it down longer; i.e. Magebane or Dshot. 128.119.156.39 15:49, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * That and if Fevered Dreams requires Mantra of Persistence to perform the same job that it did pre-nerf, the nerf is doing its job by consuming de-compressing the skill's function. --<font face="Joan"> Oiseau | User_Oiseau_Melandru.jpg 15:56, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

More mesmer buffs eh?
Great I would like to know, is this what you call power creep? 108.75.73.62 16:29, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Hardly, both the shatter skills are finally being cured of their outrageously high energy cost. Now both skills will be usable again. These 2 are just being put back into the game with a balance not a creep. Damysticreaper 17:04, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Shatter Enchantment was always usable as a extremely potent spike assist. I have no clue what you're talking about. I do agree, however, that Shatter Hex is now very usable. 128.119.156.39 17:19, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * So the continual buffing of mesmer skills cannot be considered power creep? I mean, every time they have mesmer skills in the update notes, it is some kind of buff for mesmers. I personally consider that Power creep especially considering that the class did not need an overhaul to begin with. What about ele? Most agree that mesmer does way more damage then an ele these days. Oh thats right, Ele got. 1 second off the cast time of a set of skills that are already permable if conditions are proper(conditions being maintain your skillset), and a nerf to the only ele elite I use anymore.
 * Great so now we lost Intensity, (really its crap now) and they made ele's easier to perma skills they already could permanently keep up anyway.
 * Yet here they are, buffing mesmers again instead of fixing stuff that really is an issue. I think the test krewe all plays mesmer and they like the constant buffs. Fine, but don't ruin the game to keep one class above all others. 108.75.73.62 17:49, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * You also have to understand what the purpose of these small updates are, it's to balance out some skills mostly regarding PvE. The last big update was the derv and next upcoming project is WoC followed by most likely another big skill update being either monk or paragon but most likely paragon. Agree that the ele could use some attention as well, even if it's just numbers instead of function overhaul. Damysticreaper 18:15, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? It's rather clear that the skills update on this page is directed to the recent GvG usage. This has nothing to do with PvE. 128.119.156.39 18:19, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't get your panties in a twist. The Mesmer skill changes are hardly buffs, Shatter Hex is great utility and can be usable with the 5 less energy. Fevered Dreams was abused as hell in GvG (and has been in use in HA for quite some time now), I hardly consider FD to be buffed. Also, Intensity isn't terrible at all; using cracked armor and Lighting-based armor penetrating damage via the Air Line, AoE damage can be done to a decent extent (at the very least, better than before when Intensity was unable to be used as frequently as it can now). Human's are meant to adapt to changes, and you are no exception. [inb4tangent] 128.119.156.39 18:18, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I hear you both but it is not these skills specifically it is the fact that over the last year instead of balancing some of the overly strong skills they have done nothing but make mesmer more and more powerful as time goes along. 108.75.73.62 18:20, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * @128 I think you are missing the fact that only two of the skills listed are going to directly reflect PVP the rest will have PVE repercussions. 108.75.73.62 18:22, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh and by "Buff" I mean anything that makes a profession able to do more damage easier/faster. (ie: these are buffs due to the fact that they make mesmer easier able to do more damage for less cost/faster) 108.75.73.62 18:33, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Mesmers are not getting stronger, they are getting more options to be equally good. Invoke Lightning remains about the same in normal pvp play, but is no longer abusable in spike teams. The change to attunements is a big deal for pvp: the entire class usefulness depends on them, and they get stripped fast, rupted easily and have long recharges. So elementalists get a stronger boost than the mesmers in this update. Which is good, because mesmers have become a perfectly great class while the eles could use some work. 84.90.202.144 20:53, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry was a typo i meant PvP instead of PvE. Damysticreaper 20:06, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes but what I am trying to point out here, is that every update with mesmer skills in it is an update where they slightly give mesmers a buff (therby creating power creep) in pve. I understand that this is a result of abuse of skills in GVG however I am trying to point out that the proposed changes have a serious effect upon PVE (which is going to be greatly affected indirectly) did they release a nerf to the truly overpowered skills a couple weeks after the mesmer update? No. Why is this not so? There are obviously some very overpowered mesmer skills when you consider that mesmers do armor ignoring damage. So at 100-120 damage(shatter enchant +shatter hex) for less energy (be it a pvp proposition) this creates power creep for mesmers in pve by making these skills more readily spammable. Now, I would not be saying any of this had there been say, over the last year some nerfs to the truly overpowered mesmer skills, but this is not so. They have been slowly buffing mesmer skills after the update - this is power creep. 108.75.73.62 20:59, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Power Creep in PvE? lol 72.70.250.150 21:13, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Well I am glad you are amused. Yes, they are already overpowered and the entire point of the buffs was to make it "more playable in PVE" but all they have done over the last year is buff mesmer skills whenever they are in an update. I realize that some of you only play PVP and that is ok but please do not judge. I am coming here with a valid concern and a correct demeanor I am not being rude nor am I Putting down PVP. So please do not turn this into one of those PVP vs PVE things. If you do not play PVE great for you, but please keep your dislike of PVE to yourself in this conversation. 108.75.73.62 21:18, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah. because it's not remotely possible for people to play both PvE and PvP. It must be one or the other, riiiiight? Truth be told, if you're bitching about how Shatter Hex and Shatter Enchantment are bringing in a Power Creep (lmfao) into PvE, try comparing that line of reasoning to skills such as "Save Yourselves!" or "Signet of Spirits." Really, your line of reasoning can be placed on any skill that gets altered. 128.119.156.165 17:00, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * You mistake my point for an argument sir. It is not the fact that it is shatter hex and shatter enchant, it is the fact that every update which contains mesmer skills (in PVE) has been to buff said skills making them more powerful. All of this over the course of the last year. There have been no nerfs in PVE to any of the overpowered mesmer skills(You are Obs I assume - and that is ok). I am still not taking this into a PVP vs PVE thing. What someone chooses to play has nothing to do with the fact that what I have stated above is a fact.
 * To sumarize; over the last year regarding skill updates to mesmer skills in PVE there have been nothing other than buffs. That in and of itself creates power creep whether you are snide about it or not it is a fact. 108.75.73.62 18:53, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Why in the world would it be important to nerf PvE mesmer skills? The point of the recent (well, not so recent) mesmer buff was to bring in new-found viability to a profession that found very little attention to Guild Wars for, perhaps, the dawn of the game. Nerfing skills such as Ineptitude, Panic, Fevered Dreams, Psychic Instability, the works, would be counter-intuitive - mesmers need a place in a party, and now they finally do after years of near uselessness. Oh, and by the way. Mesmer skills were nerfed in PvP addressing the power creep that did indeed appear in places such as GvG and HA (remember the mind surge spiritual pain unnatural signet spike teams?). Recently, ArenaNet has indeed been on top of things in terms with addressing the important aspects of the game. Nerfing mesmers in PvE is downright ridiculous and, as stated before, counter-intuitive to the whole idea of the mesmer buff itself. 128.119.169.132 19:19, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * So by your current logic the recent(yesterday) nerfs to the dervish for PVP having real consequences in PVE is well, illogical. They should have split the skills rather then make them less powerful in PVE by your logic. 108.75.73.62 19:22, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I would agree with that, yes. A proper split would be conventional. However, I can see ArenaNet's reasoning; they presume not to make splits for skills that don't have dramatically different effects than what they were previous. 13 to 10 lifesteal and 5 to 3 disease for Avatar of Grenth is not dramatically different and do not hinder the general lifesteal build entirely. So, I can sympathize that makes sense to not make a split, given that Anet doesn't want to code more than they need to. (lol) 128.119.169.132 19:31, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Your telling me you actually used those shatter skills before now?--<span style="background-color: Lavender; -moz-border-radius: 5px; -webkit-border-radius: 5px; border: 1px solid #c7c7c7; padding: 0 5px;"> Neil •  19:30, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * No, what I am telling you is that it seems to me that if they nerf dervish skills 1 month after the update and do nothing but buff mesmers in pve for a year this leads to mesmers having unfair advantage due to being truly overpowered. Just take a war into Ravens Point Hard Mode. Ancestors visage(or the other one that is just like it)spam makes level one for a war take close to 2 hours. My mesmer goes in there and can do also on hard mode, the same level in 20 minutes or so. This is a problem that everyone ignores because the people who say it is not a problem are casters, not wars. 108.75.73.62 19:33, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * If you're having trouble with enchantments such as Ancestor's Visage, the problem isn't the fact that your Warrior is less powerful than your Mesmer, but moreover the problem is that your party lacked enchantment removal. 128.119.169.132 19:41, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

To be clear, the changes to Shatter Enchantment and Shatter Hex provides a noticeable degree of power creep in PvP and in SCs such as DoA Trenchway; whereas Shatter Enchantment is common already in PvP, Shatter Delusions had commonly been used over Shatter Hex, for fast-recharging and spammable spiking/pressure capacity in conjunction with Power Surge (and like skills) and Mind Wrack. Since Shatter Hex now provides more damage for a more reasonable energy investment, the potential for larger spikes come into play; that is definitive power creep. EDIT : I just realized I'm equating un-like skills. It's unlikely Shatter Hex will ever be seen over Smite Hex on a smiter bar. --<font face="Joan"> Oiseau | 19:33, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I hated mesmers even before their  FIRST  update.--<span style="background-color: Lavender; -moz-border-radius: 5px; -webkit-border-radius: 5px; border: 1px solid #c7c7c7; padding: 0 5px;"> Neil • User Neil2250 sig icon6.png 19:35, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I do not hate mesmers, I do think they are way OP when one considers they do more damage than an ele, while at the same time causing shutdowns, edenial, and all their other lovely tricksy ways. 108.75.73.62 19:39, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Finally, you have addressed the main issue. Mesmers do, indeed, perform excellent sources of armor-ignoring damage that a Elementalist cannot keep up with in HM. The problem isn't that Mesmers are overpowered, but more-so that Elementalists need a buff in terms with their performance against high-armored foes in PvE. Cracked Armor does provide the player with a little more damage, but is still unconventional against foes with ridiculous armor ratings. (DoA comes to mind) Keep in mind that a decent Mesmer in PvP is only versatile given a player's reaction time; interrupting 3/4 second skills on demand requires skill and quickness of mind, and should not be punished in the eyes of the developer. 128.119.169.132 19:45, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * @128 no I have addressed that problem before the problem is that mesmer is way OP I timed it. I took my war into Raven's Point HM and it took almost 2 hours to complete level 1. I also took my Mesmer into the same dungeon also on HM and it took me just over 20 minutes to complete the same exact path. This is OP at its best. 108.75.73.62 19:48, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I have responded to that comment regarding your 2-hour Raven's Point run with your Warrior. I'll repeat regardless: "If you're having trouble with enchantments such as Ancestor's Visage, the problem isn't the fact that your Warrior is less powerful than your Mesmer, but moreover the problem is that your party lacked enchantment removal." 128.119.169.132 19:50, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * No the problem with the Mesmer being op is the fact that HM foes have a tendency to spam their skills so no amount of removing them is beneficial when playing as a war. 108.75.73.62 19:51, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Tendency to spam skills was not the first projection you gave.

1. If Ancestor's Visage is present, a warrior cannot commit adrenaline-based skills. 2. Ancestor's Visage is present. 3. Therefore, a warrior cannot commit adrenaline-based skills. So, the problem here is not that monsters spam skills, but that you cannot prepare against possible shut-down measures that you may face in a given area. This is rudimentary. To combat against spamming of Ancestor's Visage, what could you do? Use a Warrior's Endurance build, utilizing energy based skills to combat the energy and adrenaline loss you would be unfortunate to face. Use more enchantment removal or have it disabled on a hero, so that you can manually use it given that you are against it. Also, removal of Ancestor's Visage is very well viable to counter it; it's 20 second recharge gives you more than enough of a window of opportunity. I understand this is a tangent from the original conversation, so allow me to address my point: Mesmers are balanced now. What the game suffers is that professions such as Elementalists do indeed suffer in their original role as damage dealers. 128.119.169.132 20:03, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * My god you are good at distraction. The point of this post was to address the fact that over the last year, Mesmers in PVEhave not been nerfed once. Only buffed. This is a problem that should be addressed considering the recent dervish nerfs which have happened only a month after the update(how counterintuitive was that?). 108.75.73.62 20:01, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * They are hardly nerfs, nothing dramatic enough to pursue a split. 128.119.169.132 20:03, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * @128 you need to go back and read Ancestors Visage, it also drains 100% of the wars energy thanks for trying though. 108.75.73.62 20:05, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * You lose 3, and you gain 3. It's a stupid counter, I know, but you lose no energy through that transaction and, in all honesty, Warriors should always have a Zealous set - so you can technically gain energy on the assumption that you are the only thing humping that particularly enchanted target. My argument, as a whole, stands. To add on for my previous note, it doesn't really matter that numbers of most dervish skills were altered from 4-7 to 3-6. The nerf only touches upon small, minuscule numbers that really don't change the skill as a whole. 128.119.169.132 20:13, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes I agree with you the nerf was miniscule, but there was a nerf. Mesmer has not seen a nerf in almost a year regarding PVE. Many people have been having problems with some very OP mesmer skills for almost a year. No amount of discussing this other issue will change the fact that they are clearly continually buffing one class while nerfing others. 108.75.73.62 20:33, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't agree that "many" people are disgruntled by Mesmers' new-found use in Guild Wars. Quite frankly, it's a matter of perspective. Anet is not "nerfing" skills, but moreover addressing this issue: "tone down several Dervish skills that proved to be stronger than intended." The goal was to tune them down a notch, since they were too powerful. Now, whether or not you think Mesmer are "too powerful" is up to you, but currently I maintain that a majority of the Guild Wars community is by far pleased with Mesmers usefulness in a party in both PvE and PvP. If you could link me to a forum thread expressing negativity concerning Mesmer's overpowered-ness, I'd be more than happy to be open to the idea. 128.119.169.132 20:39, 23 March 2011 (UTC) E/ oh wait: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/mesmers-overpoweredi-t10445703p5.html - Most people think the Mesmer update was a success. 128.119.169.132 20:41, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It is still a fact that mesmer has not recieved anything over the last year but small buffs to already overpowered status. I think that should be taken into consideration and way OP skills like Empathy, and the Visages, should be considered for a nerf. 108.75.73.62 20:48, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

obsidian flesh
Obsidian flesh compare to shadow farm obsi flesh has way way to many drawbacks: cost a lot of energy, can be only maintained by ele without cons, you can't attack so u can't really keep aggro decent on you, u have -2 energy and the +20 armour is a problem cause the armour is caped... In my opinion 2 of those drawbacks should be removed: the +20 armour and the inability to attack while under this ench. This way obsidian flesh will have 1 single drawback as shadow form has and as vow of silence has. Also the energy cost should be reduce to 10 energy, it cost way to much and don't really offer to much to justify the insane energy costs.Thedukesd 22:22, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * UW Terraway. --<font face="Joan"> Oiseau | User_Oiseau_Melandru.jpg 15:28, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I still use obi in vvaettir farms, so dont fuck with it thx anet. --<span style="background-color: Lavender; -moz-border-radius: 5px; -webkit-border-radius: 5px; border: 1px solid #c7c7c7; padding: 0 5px;"> Neil • User Neil2250 sig icon6.png 19:30, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

On Mesmers, Page Break
It is ok to disagree man. You will never convince me that all the people I have spoken with over the last year about the OP status of mesmer are wrong. Just because we disagree with you does not make us wrong. It also does not mean that there is no problem just because you personally deny it. that page has 3 posts or at least 3 posts is all that opened when I saw it. that hardly counts as everybody. However it seems to be addressing the fact that someone is having problems with the OP status of mesmer and there are (just as in this situation) casters trying to tell a warrior that it is not OP when it clearly is. Open your eyes man, Wars are on the downhill part of an uphill struggle and when it comes to Mesmers, wars are at an extreme disadvantage due to the OP status mesmers currently have. 108.75.73.62 20:54, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * You did it again. LOL I have to stop responding to you. None of this other discussion changes the fact that they are clearly Buffing mesmer over all the other classes. that is not balance. True balance would be giving other classes a chance to survive. They are not doing so specifically for physical classes by continually buffing mesmers. 108.75.73.62 21:02, 23 March 2011 (UTC)