Talk:Archer's Signet

Other attribute
I really hope this skill gets moved to a different attribute like Marksmanship. As a Ranger, I've never really had any troubles with energy and high expertise kinda makes this skill redundant. Marksmanship would suit it much better, because for one, it only works with bows and it would enable other classes to use bows more efficiently in certain situations as well. Alternatively it would be nice if it worked on more than just bows. LunarEffect 16:29, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I was just thinking about this, too. It seems a little silly for a bow-based energy management skill to be in the Expertise line.  With your Expertise high enough for this to be useful, the attacks should already be cheap enough that you don't need this skill.  Maybe decreasing duration or number of attack skills effected and then moving it to Marksmanship would be a good move...  Beta Sprite 18:53, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a bit like having a skill in Energy Storage that increases your maximum energy. By the time you have enough points for it to be effective, you would have absolutely no problems with it anyway.  --80.16.169.162 11:16, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Or they could remove that word "bow" from the skill description and make it a decent elite ;D 72.45.52.232 22:48, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * How would that make it any better? Expertise reduces the costs of attack skills anyways. <>208.117.81.202 22:57, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Icon
Why did they change Archer's Signet's icon? It was just fine as it was before. (Besides, there are more important things that should get changed.) -- Michael the Perfectionist  06:01, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, most skill icon changes have unknown reasons. The only other skill icon i can think of that was changed was Whirlwind Attack. Sorry i couldn't help much. --[[Image:Healing Burst.jpg|19px]]Kds Healer  page   talk  22:13, 26 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Probably for consistancy with the graven stone / metal look of the other signets, if the old version is the one that's listed in the image file history, simillar looking red thiniges floating in winds. --Star Weaver 18:07, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Useless note
going to change the wording on the note "useless most of the time". Sounds more like an opinion then anything. People use signet of devotion even though u do not get the divine favor bonus on it. Even with expertise there are skills that cost enough to justify it. 10e bow attacks reduced to ~5e with 12-13 expertise and using this signet still saves 5e X 6-7 skills = 30-35e--Justice 10:50, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Buff
With Concussion Shot this can make Daze last 40 seconds (can I get a limit of at least 30 seconds for conditions)--70.105.17.14 02:36, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * there already is a cap on conditions. i forget where its written on the wiki though Conall 04:31, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ya... 12 hours is the limit (not joking, I looked it up) -- SabreWolf 07:22, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Plague signet + Plague Sending war would make one hell of a long burning duration >_< -  B y  a  k  k  o  [[Image:User_Byakko_Byakkopaw.png|User Page]] 11:24, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This skill makes no sense now. What does lengthening conditions have at all to do with archery?  It should just give a boost to damage and marksmanship attribute for X attacks or X seconds.  Aside from that, all the conditions worth lengthening are caused by other elites, or are already long enough.  Not to mention any condition causing enough problems to make this skill effective would just be removed by Life Sheath anyway.  Still, I guess it's better than it was before.  --Jette 13:40, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Because rspike is underpowered, Jette? Backsword 13:50, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Rspike is for fags, but nerfing that means nerfing the concept, not nerfing individual skills. I'm thinking about a way to do it, gimme some time.  --Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 23:21, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Call it all the names you like, it's still a problem because people do run it. Unless Expertise as a whole is tweaked (which I think it should simply because of how powerful it is) this signet can't do anything powerful. No +dmg because of RSpike, no energy help because Expertise already has that covered at low attributes... This skill probably has more potential than other under-powered elites because it's a signet and has a generic name that could offer numerous buffs, but there's not much that isn't already covered. Bathory 22:06, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Lengthens Conditions
As long as you are wielding a bow the conditions you apply are lengthened, this includes conditions from traps, Throw Dirt and spells which cause conditions like Immolate, etc... You only need to wield the bow when you apply them and it's not limited to bow attacks. 4.225.88.231 06:43, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ya but the issue with trapping is usually you use a staff for the extra energy... but i guess the first applications of the traps could be useful -- SabreWolf 07:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't like this; conditions never last their full duration anyways. 98.226.112.109 08:34, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, who cares if you can inflict dazed with Concussion Shot for 45 seconds now, it'll just be removed. This fact makes me sad.  PowerGamer 10:40, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Its quite weird, as it doesnt affect Dust Trap nor Snare, but every other trap (i didnt try PvE traps). I already noticed there was a similar problem with lenghtening condition mods on weapons that didnt affect any trap but only Viper Nest ... 90.0.230.239 12:55, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This skill is really useless now. How many good non-elite bow attacks do rangers have that cause conditions anyway? Sure I could run this spamming Immolate with a bow but I would run out of energy.
 * Think about combining it with Pin Down, Hunter's Shot and Throw Dirt. good enough for me--Soulforged 17:36, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Pin Down, Hunter's Shot, and Apply Poison are only 3 conditions. Throw Dirt has too long of a recharge to be useful in PvP as it just gets removed.
 * Pin Down, Hunter's Shot, Concussion Shot, Apply Poison, Troll Unguent, Natural Stride, Mending Touch, Archer's Signet. - 68.97.132.22 22:53, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Seriously? That's your skill bar?  Pin down, Concussion Shot, and Apply poison are some of the most expensive skills a Ranger has - and you're going to put all of them on your bar at once and be effective?  Not likely.Ninjatek 21:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I just tested it, and NO, Archer's Signet does not double the duration of conditions that are not caused by a bow. Used Glyph of Immolation with Flare while Archer's Signet was on and it lasted for only 3 seconds, not 6. Arachanox 20:49, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That's not a very extensive test. It seems most likely that it only lengthens conditions caused by ranger skills, but I haven't tested it out thoroughly.  I did lay traps and tested the condition length in that regard, there was a definite extension there. PowerGamer 04:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Retested it. Your thesis was less than half correct.  The conditions of glyphs in particular are NOT extended, however the conditions of spells (Like Rodgort's Invocation) are extended.  Rodgort's Invocation at 12 Fire (3 seconds of burning) lasted 6 seconds.  PowerGamer 04:35, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Seriously, who cares? No one is seriously going to use a ranger wielding a bow JUST to inflict Rodgorts + 6 seconds of burning.

Still a terrible skill
It's not worth an elite slot to make your poison and bleeding last longer because, as some of you said, it tends to get removed anyway. And forget about concussion shot, seriously - it's not Broad Head Arrow - you have to actually cause an interrupt for it to work. And because it's 16-12 energy even with a firm investment in expertise, you can's spam it like Savage Shot. And who needs 40 seconds of Daze anyway?? The only halfway intelligent use I see for this skill is in Random Arenas, where you might get lucky and face a team in which no one brought mending touch, or one of the other bajillion condition removal skills. And if that's the case, you don't need double condition length anyway!Ninjatek 21:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Further Testing and Updates to the Page
So far I've only seen Glyph of Immolation unaffected by this skill under the condition of wielding a bow. If any other condition inflictions are found unaffected by this skill please post them here so the page can be updated accordingly. PowerGamer 04:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

This would be better
Elite Signet: For 10 seconds, if you land a critical hit with a bow attack skill, that skill recharges instantly. If you miss while this signet is active, Archer's Signet is disabled for 30 seconds. Greevar 06:09, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I dont think so, the chances of critical hits with a bow are quite low. maybe: for X seconds your arrows have double the normal range and deal +2..10 damage. That could be awesome.--Soulforged 12:55, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ignore him, he's an idiot and just wants to break bow sins 76.188.220.80 07:34, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Concussion Shot
PEW PEW PEW |  Nalana  Darkling  |  16:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

imo
Rename is to Ranger's Signet and allow it to work with any weapon. Could make some interesting combinations, although it still wouldn't be THAT usefull.  SniperFox  11:15, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This with a Scythe would be..."interesting". Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 11:19, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Still wouldn't be any good. No Ranger's going to waste an elite on lengthening conditions that don't need to be lengthened in the first place. This needs another rework. Make it a kind of Ranger version of Signet of Illusions: "Elite Signet. Your next 1...5 Bow attacks use your Expertise attribute instead of their normal attribute." Or something. Name-wise "Expert's Dexterity" would make more sense, but... Arshay Duskbrow 13:32, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There are so few Bow Attacks outside of Expertise and Marksmanship that that would be completely useless. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 13:44, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think you understand. It would mean not having to have to sink points into Marksmanship at all to attack and use Marks skills, but you would have to be careful about balancing how many attacks you have left vs. the signet's recharge. I think it would be interesting. Arshay Duskbrow 13:49, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * With lower Marksmanship you'll be getting less critical hits, which is full of failure. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 16:28, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, you would still need to meet the prereq for your bow, or else your damage would go down the drain. Normally that means you would be carrying 9 pts in marksmanship anyways, so its not going to get you that much...Loki207.71.50.165 20:17, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * What if they make it like an elite version of Signet of Strength for ranger. Example: Elite Signet. Your next 1..7..9 bow attacks deal +1..16..20 damage.--Johnnyrodrigues 23:30, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Look y'all, the effect I'm after isn't difficult to comprehend. I guess I'll set it up a different way. "Elite Signet. For (X)...(X) seconds, your Marksmanship attribute is the equivalent of your Expertise attribute." Simple enough? Arshay Duskbrow 04:59, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "Your next 1...5 Bow attacks use your Expertise attribute instead of their normal attribute." is not equivalent at all to "Marksmanship = Expertise", kthx. That change would be ... interesting, since you could theoretically run just high Expertise and Beast Mastery or WS, and still use a bow effectively. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 06:39, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Interesting? That would just be insane.  Rangers can easily make bars work with just to attributes; they have no need for, say Inspiration (since their energy management is built into Expertise), Tactics (since Expertise also manages to offer survival skills), Wind Prayers (since Expertise is full of offensive utility, too; it even has attack skills!), and this would free up the points in Marksmanship, too...  By speccing one attribute, you could have bars like this
 * and still have all the free points to invest in whatever you want? Please, no.  =/  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  07:41, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned before, it would obviously need to be balanced in terms of duration vs. recharge, and probably should not be maintainable all the time. Since it would be a "Signet" effect there would be no way to abuse it by extending the duration though, and remember that doing this would eat up your elite, which bow Rangers heavily rely on. Anyway, it'll almost certainly never happen. Arshay Duskbrow 07:57, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned before, it would obviously need to be balanced in terms of duration vs. recharge, and probably should not be maintainable all the time. Since it would be a "Signet" effect there would be no way to abuse it by extending the duration though, and remember that doing this would eat up your elite, which bow Rangers heavily rely on. Anyway, it'll almost certainly never happen. Arshay Duskbrow 07:57, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Elite Signet: For 10 seconds, this signet doubles the elevation effect on your bow. If target is not within earshot of any allies, target receives a deep wound. This signet ends if you fail to hit. (24 sec recharge) How is that? Greevar 23:48, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That's like a dozen times worse. An elite skill making your arrows twice as slow, and causing a deep wound under a near-impossible condition.  Honestly, the best part about that skill is the fact that it ends itself. PowerGamer 13:43, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually I was referring to the damage bonus that a ranger has when they are higher than their target. Greevar 15:03, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, double elevation effect might be cool but rangers shouldn't cause deep wound. I still like my idea, think about it, double range should be awesome.--Soulforged 16:04, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Aw, c'mon! Why can't they cause deep wound?  Assassins (impale) and paragons can cause DW at range too!  Even mesmers can do it, with two seperate skills!  But yeah, that's a terrible idea.  Maybe archer's signet could simply increase your damage.  Make it let you attack 25% faster and have it level your arc.  That way you can use a non-IAS stance and a preparation besides read the wind without relying on Favorable Winds. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Jette (talk).
 * I don't know. it would be too much like Expert's Dexterity then.--Soulforged 18:20, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I've got it. (Reduce arrow flight time by 50% for 10 seconds. If you fail to hit, this signet ends.) That would make interrupting skills easier.Greevar 23:36, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

(Reset) That would make it the shittiest Ranger elite of all, because Read the Wind already does that and more with no penalty. Arshay Duskbrow 05:02, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Change skill name to Ghost Arrow Signet, make arrows ignore obstructions for the duration. --Jette 05:15, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * lol, no way they'll make such a skill --Soulforged 12:47, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You're right, it'd take too much programming. --Jette 13:11, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (Elite Signet. For 0...19...24 seconds, your bow attack skills cannot be dodged.) It irritates me to no end when I set up a shot and then the target moves just at the last second. Greevar 05:45, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That's called playing the game right. If it's that much of a problem, use read the wind and cripple them.  Or get closer, I guess.  Cripple's more fun.  --Jette 09:25, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

What if the signet causes a deep wound when you interrupt a spell/skill? Greevar 21:33, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That would be like wounding strike, but at range and with no activation time. --Jette 21:40, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * So why not? The Ranger is the only martial profession that doesn't have a skill to apply a deep wound. Greevar 20:38, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And it should stay that way, rangers are good enough without deep wound. besides, bows are always less wounding than axes,swords etc that can cut, slash and chop body parts.--Soulforged 23:18, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I dunno... haven't you seen those weeaboo films where a single arrow offs three men's heads in a row? --Jette 03:08, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, depending on the arrowhead, metals used, weight etc, an arrow can actually have more penetrating power than a sword, fyi. Still, rangers getting deep wound without a seperate bow attack is far too good (use with sloth hunters shot for a mini-spike).Crimmastermind 03:19, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol @ lack of understanding of real-world physics. You go get shot with an arrow in a vital area and come tell me it's "less wounding". I guess by that rationale, getting shot with a gun is also "less wounding"? But yeah...Ranger fanatic though I am, we already own this game. Give us DW and all other classes might as well surrender. ^_^ Arshay Duskbrow 03:58, 31 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I like the Signet of Illusions idea you posted earlier. But, instead of just bow skills, it should count Expertise as it would Marksmanship. (For your next 1...4...6 attacks, your bow and bow skills use Expertise instead of Marksmanship.)
 * That's actually what I meant all along, but nitpickers couldn't see the big picture so I had to simplify it. :P Arshay Duskbrow 13:43, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Still seems kinda useless, though. I guess if it had a really low recharge it might be helpful, but it seems like having to stop attacking every 6 attacks (at best) would seriously hamper your ability to hamper targets.  --Jette 15:15, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

(Resetting indent) Sure, but that trade-off is what would make it interesting (and balanced). Just think of all those unspent attribute points to play with...too bad this will never, ever happen. Arshay Duskbrow 17:12, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe we're looking at this wrong way. I have an idea.  Archer's Signet:  "Elite signet.  Toss this signet at target foe.  The archer who it once belonged to comes back from the grave for bloody vengeance, attacking the target for 5...37 seconds."  It would be funny, at least.  I'm sure they could give it all sorts of amusing combat dialogue.  --Jette 20:23, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Euh... maybe not. How about something like... Target foe takes 5...54 piercing damage and begins bleeding and is crippled for 3...27 seconds if that foe was moving. Or something like that. Maybe something like Glyph of Renewal for bow attacks. <>96.8.185.183 04:52, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Elite signet:(For 10...20...25 seconds) When you land a critical hit with a bow attack skill, that skill recharges instantly. If you fail to hit, the skill is disabled for an additional 10 seconds. Or this, Elite Signet:(For 3...8...10 seconds) When you hit a dazed target, that target suffers from one other random condition for 5 seconds. Greevar 18:32, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Elite Signet. For 15 seconds, you cannot move or activate stances, but you attack 50% faster and your marksmanship attribute is increased by.
 * Makes you into a badass turret. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  11:39, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I like this idea + --Soulforged 13:45, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Might be better to cause the skill to end and inflict weakness if you move than it would be to prevent movement at all. --Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 23:21, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Elite Signet. For 15 seconds, you attack 50% faster and your marksmanship attribute is increased by, but you cannot move.  This signet ends if you activate a stance.  If this signet ends prematurely, your attack skills are disabled for 10 seconds and this signet is disabled for 20 seconds.
 * Weakness doesn't hurt a ranger, they don't attack for the damage in most cases. If you really, really need to pop some defensive stance, you're not gonna just go back to pew pew mode when the sig recharges in 10 seconds, there's an actual drawback.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  18:40, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * That's true. Still, I think being able to switch to Siege Mode just by standing in place will be very bad for HA.  Rspikefags will have a field day.  --Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 20:11, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Rspike isn't a problem because rangers have siege mode. Rspike is a problem because their spike is interrupts, rangers are impossible to kill, and they can do it every two seconds.  Now, siege mode rangers would be worse, yeah.  But seeing as they already lolkill stuff, giving them the power to lolkill stuff isn't going to change anything.  Now, balancing ranger interrupts or, I dunno, somehow making rangers less invincible, or, hell, just balancing the class... that might fix rspike (have you ever seen a build with six Dervishes?  Mesmers?  Assassins?).  On an unrelated topic: The Most Badly-Designed Map in Guild Wars.  As it is now, though, changing or not changing a single skill isn't going to do anything about rspike.  So, because we can't really make rspike any worse than it already is, why not give non-lolgimmick rangers a viable skill?  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  07:04, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer they make Glass Arrows into a skill than make this elite viable. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 07:06, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't get it. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  07:10, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "So, because we can't really make rspike any worse than it already is...", let's let them use Read the Wind for even more bonus domages. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 07:12, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought you were getting at something like that. Wasn't sure.
 * I don't think there's anything wrong with turret build rangers. rspike isn't broken because of turret build rangers, it's broken because of... well, rangers.  So making rangers even more turret-ish won't be adding to the problem, IMO.  In fact, no skill change is going to balance HA, ever.  It's going to take massive, sweeping changes.  For GvG rspike (you can't even outsplit the damn things), the problem is, again, rangers.  Not turret pew pew power.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  08:22, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I suggest increasing everyone's health to 3,000. --Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 09:40, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Could you imagine a Ranger with 3,000 Health dying? Ever?
 * Also, this would be fun. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  10:21, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Concise description
"Elite Signet. If you are fighting against bad players, Throw Dirt permanently blinds them and they can't touch you since Pin Down lasts forever. Otherwise, conditions you apply get removed by RC/Life Sheath twice as quickly."

duriation math problem
+ barbed weapon

first, yes it the build won't be used. second, everything from skill effects and descriptions to aftercast delay makes math say the following: 25 seconds of bleeding (from agony) +100% (archer's) +33% (barbed) -1.75(aftercast of signet + casting time of sending) +100% (arch) + 33% (barbed again) = 172 (rounded down) seconds of bleeding.

however, the game states that this straight forward math that is taken directly from skill descriptions, is incorrect. the master of damage reaches 180 seconds (which is his limit for counting).

help or fix plz... 96.13.69.13 04:00, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you suggesting that if you apply a condition, then reapply the same condition, it'll add them? (it doesn't).  It'll just take the longest application.  --Mystisteel 04:16, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * what you said is wrong because it's both less than what the game says and what the person asking gotten as well. what the above person is asking is "what is the real math going on?" because the he Master of Damage npc in isle of masters continues to bleed up to his stopping point of 180 seconds when this person tried doing the math on his own and gotten 172.235 seconds. how this skill chain works is this: cast agony signet, you are now bleeding, the bleeding duriation is extended by barbed weapon mode and archer's signet, next cast plague sending which takes a second to cast plus .75 from aftercast of the first action (the signet), now foe is bleeding instead and that condition is extended farther because it's being applied to different target. 164.106.166.23 20:26, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Pet conditions
Does this affect the conditions ur pet make?
 * Does it say it affects conditions "ur" pet makes? (No.)  --Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 09:23, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Technobabble
This + Technobabble+ silencing bowstring = 13 sec/perma AoE daze FTW? AltCtrlTheLEET 17:33, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That requires a Ranger w/ a bow... might as well use BHA + Epidemic. 24.197.253.243 18:29, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * xcept that technobabble never misses and archers signet leaves more options open for build flexebillity + it goes with any seccondary ;) AltCtrlTheLEET 19:01, 8 May 2010 (UTC)