User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Assassin/Shadow Prison/Archive 1

Armond's Discussion
As per Shard's request. -- Armond Warblade 19:54, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * In response to izzy's question. Dark prison should cause cripple instead of being a hex.  It would still combo well with other assassin skills, but be easier to remove.  Right now, DP and SP are essentially the same, except SP has a ridiculous snare percent. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 23:35, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Unsuspecting -> Jungle -> Trampling -> Falling Lotus -> Twisting Fangs says hi to your monk. --24.9.234.253 22:54, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

WTF!! this skill is only useful in like 1 build... the 25 rech nerf was bad enuf and nerfing the entire original build.... SP(nerft)>TS>BlS(nerft)>HoTo(nerft)>BSS(nerft)>BoS>Impale(nerft)|Expose(nerft) -- - - - - - - R.I.P was uneccesary.... Leave Sp alone now 24.141.45.72 00:39, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * ^What he said. IF anything, this skill should have 20r. Prokiller88 03:08, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No. This is a stupid strong snare that leads to stupid strong spikes. It doesn't need a buff. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 03:13, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I find it funny that the people who defend overpowered skills are usually unregistered IPs. Sign up, login, get some merit on your name, then tell us why you like/dislike it. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 03:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I find it funny that it matters to you, honestly... -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 03:36, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It should get "Nerfed" because (a)It's an elite skill so it Should have a snare because do we want another joke elite skill like Wastrels Collapse? I don't think so. And (b) It's the only decent shadow step that's a hex so you can pull of some decent dagger combo's. And finally (c) Why "Nerf" it? It's a perfectly balanced skill because it's a long recharge skill I mean if they pull the recharge down to 10 secs then you would have to reduce the snare percentage and increase the casting time.-- Ninja Dragon   [[Image:User Ninja Dragon sig.png|20px]] 03:45, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I would rather it be useless like WC than instagib like it is now. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 03:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ya why not screw like all the other assassin skills like the paragon?-- Ninja Dragon  [[Image:User Ninja Dragon sig.png|20px]] 03:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Call me a noob, but define instagib. Prokiller88 03:55, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Paragon is still overpowered, Ninja. Pro, instagib is something so powerful it essentially instantly kills a guy - like the SP attack chain. It's got horrible enough defense that no serious player will use it, but it's gimmicky and unbalanced enough that bad players can use it to beat good players. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 04:01, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, the 2 wiki builds that use it (because the bad players just copy from wiki) won't finish you, I have used it and fought against it. If anything BoS should be nerfed, NOW. Prokiller88 04:05, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * But yet again Armond you are forgetting what the Assassin Class is used for It's supposed to pop in get a good dagger combo out then run away. -- Ninja Dragon  [[Image:User Ninja Dragon sig.png|20px]] 04:06, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's called instagib. And remind me how SP lets you get away? And Pro, the custom builds with SP good people use tend to abuse it :/ -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 04:07, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * *Cough* It's called dash *Cough*-- Ninja Dragon  [[Image:User Ninja Dragon sig.png|20px]] 04:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, right, because you can really fit that on a SP sin. Didn't know they got nine slots now, sorry. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 04:19, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ya you can-- Ninja Dragon  [[Image:User Ninja Dragon sig.png|20px]] 04:19, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * ...No. SP sins don't get nine slots, and they have eight skills. The only variable part of their build is which four attacks they bring, and whether they take Impale or Expose Defenses. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 04:22, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh thought you meant the newer SP versions that combo got Nerfed way long ago -- Ninja Dragon  [[Image:User Ninja Dragon sig.png|20px]] 04:24, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that'd be the four attack skills, which are variable. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 04:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Too much back and forth arguing IMO. Shadow prison isn't overpowered because it snares, and it isn't overpowered because it's a shadow step.  It's overpowered because it's both, and that's what the problem always will be, not matter what you do to it. The only way to make it manageable is if the duration comes down or if shadow stepping in general gets nerfed. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 05:17, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Leave this skill alone. Shadow stepping does what it was designed to do, which is teleporting to a target. Prokiller88 13:27, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Those two comments are completely unrelated. This skill is overpowered because it does both shadowstepping and snaring, not because it does one or the other. The combination of the two is what made this elite a bad idea from the start, like Ineptitude (huge damage + blind on a guy who you can pretty much guarantee to be frenzied? GG). -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 18:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

My suggestion: 10/0.25/20 Elite spell. You shadow step to target foe and lose 100...200 health. For 1...10 seconds (5 hits at about 7 deadly), target foe moves 66% slower. When this hex is over, both you and the target foe gain 100...200 health. There, better?


 * That's a really clunky way of going about it, and still has the problem of a 66% snare and a shadowstep all in one packet. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 18:11, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The only reason people care about this skill, is because you can start a chain, and jump through walls. The snaring is not really an issue. At all. -- Readem 23:36, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard anyone say, anywhere. If sins don't use this for the snare, why do they bring it?  To blow away 5 extra energy and an elite slot for laughs? ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 10:59, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You fucking fail. If Shadow Prison did nothing but be a hex (with a 6+ sec duration), people would still probably use it. -- Readem 00:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Really? people would run it if it didn't snare? That's why we see so many Mark of Death sins, right?  ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 00:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * O, I didn't realize MoD allowed you to shadow-step through walls. Must have missed that in the skill description. lol, ur dumb. -- Readem 09:02, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "If Shadow Prison did nothing but be a hex (with a 6+ sec duration), people would still probably use it."
 * Wow you say I fucking fail but you can't even remember your own argument, nor keep the context of mine. Go read a book, dumbass.  ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 11:44, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Dark Prison might see play if this gets hit. 50% isn't unreasonable but 3/4 cast is pretty hard a hit. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 03:57, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * @ shard, readem is right on one point: this skill is problematic for 3 reasons: Shadowstep, sanre, and combo primer. It is teh ultra bar compression, having Deaths, cripple and a hex all in one. Another solution would be to snare the caster with some rediculous duration, like 90% or sumthing. That way, You'd need tamwork and an ally KD to get your chain going. 85.103.124.132 21:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I didn't realize readem's suggestions were so...oh get the! Those were my suggestions?!?!?!  I sure am glad people know how to read. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 00:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "Elite Hex Spell. Shadowstep to target foe, for 6 seconds target moves 33%...59%...66%." 10 1/4 20.

How about this? It shadow steps and the snare is fixed at 6 seconds, and since mosts builds that use this only puts 6 points in deadly arts anyway the snare would be pretty weak, if someone could calculate that, tell me because I have no idea. Prokiller88 02:36, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The current meta deadly arts sin runs 15 deadly, actually... -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 22:53, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, its 6 seconds vs 9 seconds. Thats a big nerf. Prokiller88 01:04, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ten seconds, actually, and no it's not, because they don't generally survive that long anyway. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 08:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

It's a nerf towards the players who don't use it at 15. Prokiller88 22:12, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * how are people still talking about this skill, when was the last time you saw a sin insta someone?! the new in is the AoB Derv 76.26.189.65 15:31, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Veto

 * 1) Veto changing it-- Ninja Dragon   [[Image:User Ninja Dragon sig.png|20px]] 18:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * On what grounds?! -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 18:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * On the grounds as it's a perfectly balanced skill if you don't like it then go fly a kite :P.-- Ninja Dragon  [[Image:User Ninja Dragon sig.png|20px]] 19:01, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No. I'm sorry, but you're dumb. This is not "perfectly balanced", nor will it ever be, and if you had read the above discussion you would know that. (You don't even have to realize it yourself, we've spoon-fed you the reasons. :/) -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 19:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If you can't call any skill bar that uses this build to be balanced, you need to look at shock axe, a staple of the warrior profession, the spike that it produces is very powerful, you cannot deny this.
 * There are a bunch of other skill bars that are imba if you use it correctly. So why are you arguing this is overpowered rather then showing that other skills need to be buffed. Prokiller88 22:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Because it has a 66% snare, which is bigger than anything the warrior can get? I play shock axe a lot, but the kd from bull's and shock is nothing compared to the snare this thing has. Also, a warrior with this laughs at positioning; I need to spike something? Why waste time getting near him before the spike? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 22:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * So just because of the 66% snare, this skill needs its duration reduced? Prokiller88 22:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That, or the snare needs to be weaker. Or both. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 22:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * People will accept the 45% or 50% snare or atleast people that would use this skill. Prokiller88 22:54, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * What people accept isn't necessarily what's balanced. Look at sins and dervs - both fanservice, both broken. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 23:18, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you forgot paragons. The spear is overpowered. Prokiller88 04:21, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Not really fanservice though. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 04:45, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The assassin does what it is described to do which is kill quickly. The dervish is a holy warrior who uses a scythe, it does what anet designed it to do. The shadowsteps, except for aod,shadow meld, recall, that stance one, leave the assassin very fragile. The Daggers them selves are very weak and without good skills, it would become the new necromancer in gvg.
 * You stick very stubbonrly to "this is what they were designed to do" instead of "this is what is balanced". Neither idea is good for balance; if a guy can kill instantly, what becomes the point of using any other melee unless you're going for pressure, in which case why aren't you using the scythe that hits three people at once?
 * Again, we come back to my suggestion of banning every skill from Nightfall and Eye of the North from PvP, along with professions other than the core six. Seems to me to be the only reliable way of killing off the huge power creep we've seen since then. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 22:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * None of the assassin builds that I have seen people play kill people instantly. Don't over exaggerate it. Your suggestion of banning the 4 new professions is a horrible. Assassins are useless in pve, all guild wars players know that. The Rit's limit is to either heal or summon spirits to attack. The Dervish is balanced, or would be if melandru did have the skill activation thing. Paragons are another thing, the spear needs a nerf, not the skills, the actual weapon. If you played sins, dervs, paragons, or rits alot more you would be able to see how hard it is to play them. This skill saves time if you used dark prison you would know that it needed a buff a long time ago.Prokiller88 01:42, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * sins, dervs, paragons, or rits
 * see how hard it is to play them
 * Ahahahahahahahahahahaha. --71.229.204.25 01:44, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Uh huh, it may seem easy but its not, playing an assassin is pretty close to playing a mesmer at least being a good assassin is. Rits are interrupt bait, the spirits are 3-5 second cast, the heals are 1 second casts and the damage skills are also 1 second casts. Dervs are also pretty hard even if their critical does 70+. The offensive paragon is easy to play, pick a target and stick to it but a support one is hard, the cast time for chants are usually 1 second or more, the main heal for the paragon is pretty weak.
 * 1) Revert to 20second recharge User 24.141.45.72 19:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * ....... -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 19:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol Armond you just got Served! --75.73.207.233 01:15, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem is not even SP, its the attack chain that follows it... SP could be given back its 20 sec recharge, only if it had disabling the attack skills of the user for 1..3 seconds after use, similar to black out. OblivionDanny 20:49, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Then you'd get a warrior that - surprise! - doesn't have to worry about positioning and can hack on a target that has no way of outrunning him. Shadowsteps and snares are one of those combinations that will always teeter on being overpowered, like blind and damage once the target attacks or blind and damage, plus AoE if the target's enchanted, or damage, unblockability, and enchantment strips. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 20:57, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * A warrior can do that now anyway, just with a 5 second recharge difference... at least with a disabling effect adrenaline will need to be rebuilt. That or change the snare to a KD instead. OblivionDanny 21:08, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but what can a warrior do anyway? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 22:53, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * To the person Who said sins arn't good in PvE I will have to disagree because My sin tanks in PvE except for mesmers (which along with ele's are really the only things that can kill me ) Sins actually own in PvE so :P -- Ninja Dragon   [[Image:User Ninja Dragon sig.png|20px]] 06:50, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Shadow Prison should be reverted to what it was on Nightfall's release. There was never anything wrong with it.222.127.223.69 00:11, 27 February 2008 (UTC)Shinde


 * Wrong. -- Readem 00:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Heh, I liked the second reply. "Veto because it's a fine skill and if you don't like it go fly a kite."  Comments like those are the reason these discussions never go anywhere.  "This skill is fine because I abuse it" is not an argument. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 00:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Try veil. Or RoF. Or prot spirit. Or spirit bond. Or hex breaker. Face the sin and walk backwards. Or hell, even a fricking health regen skill. Shadow prison isn't OP.

^Agree. Any class with half a brain can survive an SP spike. People blow it out of proportion; it's not that easy to get a kill in SP's current state. If anything, it should be buffed cuz it should kill more efficiently and more often. 222.127.223.69 08:37, 27 February 2008 (UTC)Shinde


 * My PvP sin tends to disagree with you, I literally get kills all the time. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 08:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you running the hybrid signet spike or the other one? Prokiller88 22:15, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Neither, just talking out of his ass. 222.127.223.69 23:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)Shinde
 * The hybrid spiker is imba, but it won't kill you instantly. I play an assassin with sp as just the elite/snare because shadowy isn't elite, hell if I did use it then that build would be super imba shadowy burden with 4 skills charging and bos = auto kill. Prokiller88 13:56, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Neither the hyrid spiker nor Shadowy Burden are imba, what are you smoking? Delete your sin. 222.127.209.212 02:09, 1 March 2008 (UTC)Shinde
 * Hybrid spiker is imba. Shadowy isn't imba. I'm smoking whats called life. No, I will not delete my sin. I said that build would be imba if I put it on because of the armor effect but shadowy is fine as it is. Prokiller88 04:01, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * ATTENTION ALL PVE NOOBS AND PLAYERS WHO SUCK AT WARRIOR:
 * Shadow Prison is not balanced for the following reasons:
 * It is a shadow step.
 * It is a 1/4 snare.
 * In addition, you cannot veil it because:
 * It is a 1/4 second cast and Veil is 1. You will be dead by the time it comes off.
 * In addition, you cannot kite it because:
 * It's a snare.
 * In addition, you cannot Prot Spirit/Spirit Bond against it because:
 * 99% of sins who run it throw lots of degen on you, and the actual attack skills almost never do more than 40 damage per hit.
 * "This is fine because it's the only thing I'm good at" is NOT an argument. Come up with a new one. 72.235.48.41 13:36, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * cough* SoD/SoA/shielding hands/SoR/rc/reversal/guardian/PRE-VEIL/ I don't think you have played assassins at all, the ones used in the current meta hit 60 damage more then 4 times/melandru it/shock it/ward of melee/etc.*cough* Man that was a long one. Maybe it would be balanced if the skill team buffed other skills, but no you guys just yell nerf over and over again. Prokiller88 17:26, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow. User 72.235 must've wracked his brain to think that up. And clicked Save page with an "OH YEAH! Eat that!" In his nerdy voice. And farted in excitement. Too bad everything he said is either invalid or flat out wrong. In addition, you cannot veil it because: In addition, you cannot kite it because: In addition, you cannot Prot Spirit/Spirit Bond against it because: - ''any small prot and the spike fails. see Prokiller88's list. "lots of degen"? oh noez my life going down nerf teh degenz omg *cry*. The degen is usually just 4 from poison. Sometimes 7 from poison + bleeding. Anyone with half a brain won't die from degen before they get rid of it or heal through it with the multitude of cheap overpowered spammable monk skills no one ever cries for nerfs about.''
 * It is a shadow step. - good job, you can read. but a teleport every 25 seconds (looong) is nothing
 * It is a 1/4 snare. - crippling shot. crippling slash. the water ele line. all superior snares that can be done a lot more often with little to no risk.
 * It is a 1/4 second cast and Veil is 1. You will be dead by the time it comes off. - what Prokiller88 said. although pre-veil is too advanced a concept for your feeble mind.
 * It's a snare. - yes, that is what snares do. redundant (look it up www.thefreedictionary.com) much?
 * 99% of sins who run it throw lots of degen on you, and the actual attack skills almost never do more than 40 damage per hit.

P.S. Elite skills were supposed to be good, last I heard. 222.127.223.69 21:18, 1 March 2008 (UTC)Shinde
 * Ye, a-net should have left signet of might as it was, it sucks now. There's a difference between being good, and being OP. Lord of all tyria 21:33, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Shadow Prison is underpowered for an elite skill. 222.127.223.69 01:05, 2 March 2008 (UTC)Shinde
 * Lets just all agree to revert the recharge back to 20 or reducing the snare to 50% or not touch it at all. Prokiller88 14:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * If shadow prison is underpowered, why do so many people in HB use it? Its hard to call the top 10 there bad. Lord of all tyria 16:00, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * And user 222 doesn't know what satire is, nor does he realize that shadow stepping is broken no matter what the recharge is. As I've already said, "This build is fine because I suck at everything else" is not an argument. Get a new one. Kiting and positioning are crucial parts of thegame.  This skill ignores both. 72.235.48.41 16:10, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol you can shove your silly "argument" cuz I stated all of mine when I demolished your post. 222.127.223.69 21:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)Shinde
 * The hybrid spiker is not fine. Shadow Stepping is not overpowered, please stop saying that, you know what is overpowered? disrupting chop (it needs the 1sec activation just like agonizing and critical), executioners with evis, those ele snares that do more then 66%, magebane, chilling victory, I could go on, but then I would be flamed for being a "noob" Prokiller88 20:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * First: Shadow Prison is not used for the snare, that is just an extra bonus. The real power of this skill comes from the fact that it primes Black Lotus and it gives you a cheap shadow step.  This is what Readem already said, but apparently no one understood this...
 * Second: Pre-prot fails because of HotO and the fact that Impale AND Twisting Fangs both deal DW. The packages of damage are small enough to get through Protective Bond, and the Combo does enough damage to kill a 600 HP character.Mr.Hobo 20:58, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Ever heard of guardian? shield of absorption?  shielding hands?  Those are some pre-prots that are effective no matter how small the damage packets are.  And you have to work on your addition skills cuz it is nowhere near 600. 222.127.223.69 23:42, 4 March 2008 (UTC)Shinde
 * Just to ask you guys who are saying "the build using sp does over 600 damage" What is this all powerful build? Last time I checked, it did 460-500. Prokiller88 01:48, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Idoticity meter is reading a 78.09% positive. First off, Mr. Hobo is right - one of the problems with this skill is that it is a snare, a primer, AND a SS. Last I herd, 3-skill bar compression was baed. Second, to all the people who argue here, stop trying to use the "I can defend against it so it is not OP" argument. Third, Armond, start using the "This skill brakes splits" argument. Fourth, Mr. Hobo, use the "Horns of the ox stops me from preproting, teleporting stops me from using preprots" argument. Fifth, the suer who just ignored positioning and kiting really needs to go tell that to readem so he can tell him/her to uninstall. Sixth, all those who ignore the "Shadow Steps are Op, no matter what the recharge" need to play some sort of serious GvG, and get buttraped at VoD becasue of a super sin split. [[Image:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg|19px]]   nuke7    [[Image:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg|19px]] 12:52, 23 March 2008 (UTC)