Talk:Game updates/20081009

FAIL! nothing to skills that need buffs or nerfs Annoying And Deadly 22:45, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Because we should totally expect that to happen EVERY UPDATE --[[image:User_FlamingMetroid_Metroidsig.png ‎| 19px]] Metroid 22:48, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Bug Fixes & Miscellaneous sections...
...Are made of win. Thanks, Arena Net, some of those are really nice changes. Erasculio 22:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, if not for the fix of the Deathbane bug. it was a very dissappointing thing to find a high class item that just happened to have a deathbane mod on it >.> Axel Zinfandel 01:33, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Leah Stone
Finally, that slowpoke will move faster. --M age M ontu 22:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed [[Image:User_Kyle_van_der_Meer_Sig_Pic.png|15px]]Kyle van der Meer  23:28, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Only taken 3 years... --SK 04:21, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Finally! Man that took a while... -- § Lacky §  05:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


 * and i also hope they fixed the erratic movement of Leah... you know speeding up and slowing down for no reason. --pixy 09:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmmm strange enough, I feel like a corner stone of my PvE experiences has been taken away. --Xeeron 11:05, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Amulet of Protection
... wtf? --Macros 22:51, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Apparently arenanet would make the game suck more rather than fixing it. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 02:38, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

CYA LATER CALTROPS
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA &mdash;  Skakid  22:52, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It was never that powerful .. and now? Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 23:12, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Hey Noctarch, I like to have no clue as to what's going on in GvG too :D --[[image:User_FlamingMetroid_Metroidsig.png ‎| 19px]] Metroid 23:38, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Never that powerful? Lulz. IT was imba--Underwood 23:40, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Think of it in these terms Noctarch. Imagine you're trying to drive down the road.  Now imagine there's a guy in front of you doing half the speed limit.  For the rest of your life.  That guy is Caltrops.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  23:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Gear 5 on my Passat Variant and shouting "Loser!" =D Nah, joke. However, I never found the assassin (or whatsoever) who won against me because of Caltrops. Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 23:48, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * because assassins used hidden caltrops --[[image:User_FlamingMetroid_Metroidsig.png ‎| 19px]] Metroid 23:58, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The Caltrops spiker in is annoying go beat that--[[Image:User Wild rituals signature.png|Talk]]Wild 23:58, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Punch. First and mediocre try. Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 00:01, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * ^what? Hidden Caltrops was nerfed because it was used by rit runners, who because of it, could damage, heal, and snare all pretty well. --[[image:User_FlamingMetroid_Metroidsig.png ‎| 19px]] Metroid  00:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, it's amotpov if Ritualist are the most fearsome spikers. Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 00:07, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm going to go away and pretend I didn't have to have this conversation... --[[image:User_FlamingMetroid_Metroidsig.png ‎| 19px]] Metroid 00:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I have bee mean to you? Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 00:24, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Just you being oblivious to the GvG scene is all :P --Underwood 00:30, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * What's GvG? Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 00:41, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow, that analogy was amazing. &mdash;  Skakid  02:42, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Gadd
Ohhh, even though that skill really bugged me, it kinda built on the personality of Gadd (making me want to boot him but still). 000.00.00.00 22:52, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Man am I glad that took this skill off him. Pissed me off real bad, especially in Finding the Bloodstone. kaheiyeh 23:11, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I was kind of dissappointed. The skill worked well with Gadd's personality, making him an annoying pain in the butt. Axel Zinfandel 01:29, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * lol its almost as if anet heard me swearing because one of those ettin bosses wont die kuz it had iron mist on him--60.241.172.128 11:25, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I just made sure someone was carrying a hex remover, problem was solved. He's just a mouthy midget now (no offence to any of the mouthy midgets left or just midgets in general) 000.00.00.00 20:10, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Um, how do you remove an elementalist hex from an enemy? --JonTheMon 20:12, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thats right, I remember now it didn't work [been a while since I did it]. I always thought Drain Delusions would work, but it didn't, cos it was an elementalist hex not a mesmer hex.  My bad.  000.00.00.00 06:00, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

backbreaker
didn't izzy say somewhere that knockdown couldn't be scaled..? --Cancer Angel  23:03, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I highly refrain from saying what Izzy told beyond that being impossible. Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 23:13, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * He was referring to the fact that KD can't be scaled in units smaller than seconds. A 2.5 second kd is not possible. Guess he found a way to fix (?) the skill, though. 157.193.12.202 23:21, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Remember when he said a PvP/PvE skill split was impossible? Misery 23:25, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe Misery has won this section.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  23:45, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Izzy did say that KDs couldn't scale, however there is a workaround in that they can simply apply different KDs in different sections. That said, I expected them to put a clause in like "with less than 12 Hammer Master this only KDs for 3 seconds", but it seems they've either un-hardcoded it or simply worked around it but made it look like it scales as normal. Either way, kudos to them both for the scaling KD and for balancing Backbreaker (and double points for not killing it - this is now actually better if you have 12+ hammer mastery).

Fire Magic
OK...--Underwood 23:40, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Immolation needed the damage boost bad, but I still don't think it was enough. They should make it scale into the hundreds, or near 100 for it to be worth using. For being a single target fire magic spell, it's pretty terribad. Axel Zinfandel 01:31, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It adds burning and is spammable. Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 01:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Fun fact: There has never been an update nerfing the fire magic attribute. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 02:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Searing Flames must be in air magic then. Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 03:26, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It got nerfed, then it got reverted. That doesn't count.  It's just as powerful as it was on day 1.  ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 04:07, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Rodgort's Innovacation. 5s recharge -> 8s recharge would count as a nerf.... Legendary Robanian 05:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Searing Flames' damage reduction wasn't reverted; Mind Blast had a damage boost reverted and an energy nerf; Mark of Rodgort had a recharge nerf; Flame Djinn's Haste had its speed, duration and recharge nerfed; Glowing Gaze had a recharge nerf; Savannah Heat had it's recharge increased with its cost reduction... and whatever other skills there might be.  66.190.15.232 05:52, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Mark of Rodgort and the other skills u named have been buffed from day one, buffed again, again, and then suddenly nerfed slightly cuz they got op, still better than than when they came out, i hope u get the point. --Cancer Angel [[Image:User Cursed Angel Signature.jpg|19px|y so srs?]] 10:36, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * However, they have been nerfed. That's the point. Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 11:55, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, MoR never used to be 15. That seems like a fairly big nerf to me. 82.3.255.222 15:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It has been 15 energy; See here. BlazeRick 14:15, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

GuildLord
woot no gay ass SV/cyclone axe exploiting :) 72.183.202.229 00:10, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No. No woot at all. Instead of actually fixing the completely broken mechanic of AoP by "healing back excess damage per second instead of actually protecting against it" (Hence Mo***P*** for PROTECTION), they took the lame-ass lazy workaround.
 * Just like how the hero exploit is still there, but they just fixed Unyielding Aura in PvE, instead of fixing the actual problem. Although I don't really care about PvE anyway. It just shows how Anet is removing the symptoms rather than the causes. Which -is- really sloppy for a professional company.  SniperFox [[Image:User_SniperFox_IconSmall.gif]] 10:32, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Backbreaker is just another of those examples, they remove the symptom ( Backbreaker being powerfull with fast weapon switching ) rather than fixing the actual weapon switch exploit. Start making actual fixes and not just cheap workarounds anet.  SniperFox [[Image:User_SniperFox_IconSmall.gif]] 10:36, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Removing Cyclonic Axe does seem a bit lazy, but I guess it works so why not? OK, in a perfect world we wouldn't have kludges like this, but the world is far from perfect so I think this is the next-best thing. They could have given him some other skill to make up for it though (Cyclonic Axe meant he could do a bit more damage than he can now :-) ).
 * Because if you don't fix the original problem, people will find other exploits, such as using DwG with Shadow walk with 6 people to drop two pots in less than a second to kill a lord on like 50-75% health or something. Ok, that likely won't be the exploit, but someone will find something eventually again. Misery  16:03, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry sniper fox but, fast weapon swap EXPLOIT? What exactly is being exploited?--67.164.57.79 21:43, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * What was exploited was backbreaker being fully efective at 5 hammer mastery, and daggers giving lots of adrenaline (high base speed, Double strikes). So backbreaker was 1. basically free in terms of attribute points and 2. way cheaper than intended in terms of adrenaline. The first has been adressed (and I suspect that will be enough to stop this build). SniperFox seems to think only/mainly the second was the problem. 134.130.4.46 22:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually the exploit is that you can switch weapons quickly by pressing ESC so you can avoid the "aftercast" delay of your backbreaker. This is in my eye's an exploit and should be fixed rather than the actual skills getting a nerf.  SniperFox [[Image:User_SniperFox_IconSmall.gif]] 22:57, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Dear ArenaNet,
Stop nerfing skills in PvE that don't specifically need it. That is, make skill changes apply in PvP only by default unless there's an explicit reason it needs to be nerfed in PvE also. Unless you're going to do a large-scale skill rebalancing, there's no justification for 99% of the nerfs you've done since the PvE-PvP split to apply to PvE. -- Mafaraxas 01:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If something is overpowered against 8 thinking human beings, it's likely going to be overpowered against AI dumb enough to barely avoid standing in the middle of an AoE attack that does damage over time. There are a few exceptions to that, but I expect most of the PvP nerfs to apply in PvE as well. Erasculio 02:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Some skills far from acceptable in PvE though are nice in PvP. Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 12:32, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh, like I said, some exceptions. I disagree with most of your examples (Frenzy, Waste Not, Bull's Strike, Shock and Shadow Prison are good in PvE, IMO, and Ineptitude is great), but I could list dozens of others by listing all energy denial skills, which are far weaker in PvE than they are in PvP. Still, I think there are many skills that are or were overpowered in PvP, and also overpowered in PvE, like Searing Flames, Burning Arrows, and etc. Erasculio 12:43, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Shock eats up your energy and Ineptitude your time. That's bad when you can have an elite that does something. Ah, and frenzy in Vizunah Square.. preferably HM. Last note, find foes who reliably kite in PvE for Bull's Strike.Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 12:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol, if someone uses Frenzy in PvE I kick them out of the team.
 * Why? It's one of the best ways of earning adrenaline. Of course, the player has to know how to use it - it's as pointless so bring in Vizunah Square as it would be in a GvG warrior who's overextended and became the target of half the opposing team. The drawback is meaningless if you're not being hit, though, which is even more valuable in PvE than in PvP since the AI doesn't change target to someone who's using Frenzy. Same could be said for Bull's Strike - a way of very reliably making enemies move is by targeting the enemy melee characters who are targeting your own kiting party members. In Hard Mode that's easier, given how enemies may even bother to kite there. Erasculio 15:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Armor is meaningless if you are not under attack. And in PvE Flail tends to be a less dangerous IAS. Ah, and the AI does prefer easy-to-kill targets - they will, however only change in Hardmode or when knocked down. Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 16:32, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * What skill being nerfed in PvE are you talking about?
 * Backbreaker: Nobody runs <12 wepon mastery, not even in PvE. And the A/W weapon switch build was obviously an exploit and deserved to be fixed, regardless of PvE or PvP.
 * FGJ was a PvP-only nerf.
 * Incendiary Arrows or Hidden Caltrops: They were completely overhauled in the last update, and arena.net obviously thought they overdid them a little (many agree). So I guess you think a.net shouldn't buff PvE skills either? Or do you think that they can't make or mustn't correct errors made while buffing PvE skills? Or are you just whining because a skill you used was nerfed and you're too stupid/lazy to think of a new build?
 * If it's the last one: congratulations, you're one of the morons giving PvEers a bad name among PvPers, ruining this wiki as a communication platform with a.net, and causing global warming.
 * By the way, I think the update was very good. A couple of important current PvP issues adressed, a couple of underused skills buffed slightly, a couple of bugs fixed (yay for Leah!). I may disagree a bit with the details (particularly the Burning Arrow buff, it was already powerful in 4v4, and I hate the FGJ nerf, but have no better idea either), but this is the way regular maintenance should be done to an MMO. Congrats a.net, it seems you've learned a lesson.
 * 134.130.4.46 21:32, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

This letter wasn't directed solely at this update, per se, but all the nerfs that have been applied to PvE since the split. Let me clarify: PvE is a joke, as is evidenced by all the terrible people that can play through all the campaigns with terrible skill bars, and those who play through all the campaigns with even worse bars to prove how much of a joke it is. I'm all for making PvE more difficult/balanced, but applying the nerfs which are justified for PvP and acting like there's any justification for applying them to PvE also is a joke. Either address the many larger issues of PvE en masse, or not at all. Nerfing specific skills in PvE does nothing to improve it, and instead just limits diversity. -- Mafaraxas 01:58, 12 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Gw isn't a MMORPG its a CORP (Competitive Online Roleplaying). So technically PvE doesn't really matter by definition. Dominator Matrix  02:12, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I resent that, I always run 15 on the attribute I focus on. The 3 attribute difference is very noticeable, and the HP doesn't offend your lifespan as much as you would think. I suggest trying ti before knocking it. 68.198.172.36 02:59, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

FGJ
What's up with that nurf? --SK 04:25, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * damn, I was just about to cap BB for my sin :< 202.124.127.204 06:26, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, "FGJ!" was causing problems, but that's way too harsh a nerf if you ask me. 20s -> 8s? That's 40% of what it was. I would agree with it if they knocked down the recharge too (maybe ~20), but as it is, a skill with 17.8% uptime is never going to see use.
 * In my opinion, this skill is the next dead-nerfed-skill (followed by ). A change to the Strength-Attribute would be much better, so it still can be used by Warriors: For  seconds, when you hit with an attack, you gain 1 additional strike of adrenaline.

Can anyone explain why this was nurfed anyway? I don't play PvP. --217.41.35.160 15:31, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It was a vital part of the effectiveness of Backbreaker assassins, since they could have Backbreaker charged again at the end of the chain. --[[Image:User Mafaraxas_sigimg.jpg|click moar]] Mafaraxas 15:57, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments
Well, looks like Anet did some things correctly and other things incorrectly with this update.


 * Hidden Caltrops diddn't really that much of a nerf, no one used it much anyways. I like the idea of nerfing it at the low end but this is just over-nerfed.


 * Immolate received a small buff. I actually think it was fine as it was but now it's "very good but not overpowered."


 * Meteor may see some use now. Too early to say anything about it.


 * Lyssas's Aura was balanced before, but now it's in the same category as Immolate- "very good but not overpowered".


 * The buff to Burning Arrow was stupid IMO. 7 seconds of burning for 10 energy, 5 recharge, and no downside is ridiculously overpowered. Elementalists have to spend 15 energy(using Searing Flames and even then they don't get base damage from a bow attack) or suffer exhaustion from Mind Burn to do that. Revert, please.


 * WHY did Incendiary arrows need a nerf? It's now a piece of crap. At least buff the burning duration.


 * Good decision on the Melandru's Shot buff. It may see some more use now with the reduced recharge.


 * Backbreaker nerf- Another good decision. 2 second knockdown for no attribute investment. Fair enough.


 * "For Great Justice"- Wow, this change is even more retarded than the Burning Arrow buff. This is practically a 25/90, Warrior edition. Revert along with Burning Arrow please. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:72.71.219.145 (talk).
 * I would mostly agree with you there. I never play Burning Arrow so I can't comment on that, but Incendiary Arrows I know was slightly too good (though I think they should change the scaling on it a bit to make up).
 * Hidden Caltrops obviously did need a nerf, and you are ignorant if you thought otherwise
 * Immolate is still pretty bad. Meteor may see some use, but it is still inferior to other ele knockdowns (See Gale, Earthquake, Dragon's Stomp)
 * Lyssa's Aura seems like it would encourage FC water ele's again be giving mesmers a tasty new E management skill. only problem is it is vulnerable to enchantment stripping.
 * In 8v8 play, it was obvious that incendiary arrows was better than BA (Seriously, spreading poison was ridiculously easy with IA). This nerf/buff combo made the two balanced against each other.
 * Agreed with the Melandru shot buff
 * Not like any good warriors used FGJ anyway.
 * Backbreaker nerf makes me a bit sad. Not because I enjoyed wrecking people with an overpowered build, but I enjoyed wrecking that overpowered build. When you see a A/W with a spear auto attacking someone, then run up to them and switch to their hammer, it is basically the easiest D shot/Shield bash/Guardian/any decent prot skill usage in the game. I couldn't count the number of sins that ragequit after getting their BB D shotted in RA. Jonas 01:32, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I gotta agree, I loved beating the royal stuffing out of BB sins. The few times I won in HB was because said sin couldnt either hit me or even get close to me. Blind + Cripple ftw. ^.^ --[[Image:User Wandering Traveler Oie User Wandering Traveler Sig2.png|19px]]  Wandering   Traveler  01:34, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * @ the first comment, Hidden Caltrops did need a nerf, but not this much. It was slightly OP in GvG but nowhere else where it made flag runners able to not only run flags, but annoy the sh*t out of everyone. Burning Arrow buff was a bit stupid, but it isn't as super OP as you think. You are forgetting that SF is AoE for that 15 energy and deals shit loads of damage because it is spammable AoE damage that isn't brought because of its burning only (read the description, it deals 100dmg to burning foes) and comparing a skill to Mind Burn is stupid. Might as well compare everything to Seeping Wound, Mind Burn is a useless skill, so don't compare good spells with it. Incendiary Arrows was nerfed because it became ultimate at condition spreading. It wasn't used because of its burning (if you want burning, BA is way better) but rather in conjunction with Apply Poison so that the entire team got poisoned in 5 seconds and was easily maintained without spamming Savage Shot. This meant that rangers could interrupt at will and maintain Poison on an enemy team, which was OP. BB is never used without attribute investment (no skill is). The nerf was warranted, but it doesn't solve the real problem (assassins gaining adrenaline too fast and quick weapon switching). I agree with the FGJ nerf, but mostly u fail.Crimmastermind 23:34, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Link FGJ to Strength, fixed. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:72.71.212.37 (talk).

More comments
What a nice update... Dionyssios 12:24, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh wait, are these assassins targeted again? Because of abuse by other professions?
 * And killed FGJ because of a single A/W build? And at the same time killed a bunch of options for a Warrior that doesn't care to play stupid Eviscaxe?
 * And 2 fire skills that are already on every Tom's and Dick's and Harry's skillbars get buffed?
 * No comment on this month's ranger elite flavour, new month = new tonic + new ranger elite (good grief!)
 * Lyssa's Aura is nice, might even see some use by mesmers, but I prefer to play my sin with daggers. Buff sins, get rid of the aftercast on shadow steps making them exclusive to sins, and stop taking into account HB, at all.
 * Oh, and nerf Eviscerate out of the game. Enough boredom.
 * To Leah: sorry honey, no more long, carefree, romantic walks, all good things come to an end (sigh)...
 * hmm... lets see...

-- Metroid 15:38, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, because assassins totally used HC outside of HB. The class is broken anyway, get over it.
 * Warriors can do perfectly fine without FGJ.
 * I'd hope they weren't on everybody's skill bar...
 * The ranger elite balance update was actually pretty good, and overpowered skill got nerfed a bit, and the skill it overshadowed got buffed.
 * I <3 my assassin, but I think assassins should be locked from PvP. The class was poorly executed and therefore broken and impossible to balance.  Just let it die.
 * Shock Axe is one of the best working builds in the game, no point in nerfing it just to force players to mix things up.
 * still think they missed Poison Arrow :/ --<font color="Black">Cancer Angel [[Image:User Cursed Angel Signature.jpg|19px|y so srs?]] 16:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * And you forgot Punishing Shot.
 * "and stop taking into account HB, at all." Dont be Stupid please Hb is broken! --[[Image:User Wild rituals signature.png|Talk]]<font color="#4E8975">Wild 02:54, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Wild; I don't like to respond to personal attacks, so I will restrain myself to only ask you this: How about your mother? Opinions are like other things, everyone has one. HB is not broken: HB is a joke. It should be erased from the game, or be given special, festival-like skills and leave the rest of the game alone. You wouldn't want this game to be ballanced taking into account 1 vs. 1 squirmish, now would you? And Metroid, yes, assassins did use HC everywhere, it was one of the very few elites they played after the shadow steps' nerf. And the class was finely designed and executed, with imagination and perspective, but very under-powered, and even more so with every single update. Warriors can do perfectly fine without FGJ? Sure. They can do perfectly fine without Eviscerate. Eviscaxe is the most ancient and boring build in the game, every other build has changed, time to say goodbye to this one. Respect. Dionyssios 08:17, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I fail to see Hw my Mother has anything to do with this? HB is a joke to the people Who carnt play it, "HB is not broken" From this statment on i have totaly ignored everything u said because u obviously dont know what ur talking about --[[Image:User Wild rituals signature.png|Talk]]<font color="#4E8975">Wild 10:15, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * HB is a joke because it's a 1v1 build-off exploiting idiot savant hero AI. Hidden Caltrops was used almost exclusively by Ritualist runners in GvG, and by 'almost exclusively' I mean 'almost exclusively when you ignore ineffective or bad uses'.  Warriors can do perfectly fine without FGJ, FGJ has been a dead skill in any kind of competitive play since the +100% gain -> +1 adrenaline nerf. --216.241.108.106 13:44, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * And the class was finely designed and executed, with imagination and perspective, but very under-powered, and even more so with every single update.
 * --Hrrm...now why would ANet nerf a "finely designed and executed...but very-underpowered" class? -- Ezekial Riddle 21:01, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The Assassin is a broken class, if you disagree, you are wrong. period. --[[image:User_FlamingMetroid_Metroidsig.png ‎| 19px]] Metroid 03:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry my friend, this is not a matter of opinion, this is a matter of facts. It's as simple as doing the math=statistics: broken are the clases that are more used in GvG (Monks and Warriors), and underpowered are the ones that are less used (Necromancers and Assassins). They should be nerfed and buffed accordingly, those in between as well. This would balance the game far better than introducing stupid mechanics like aggressiveness. Dionyssios 10:15, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Assassins aren't used often in GvG often because they have been rightly nerfed repeatedly and take good players that know how to split. The assassin is only effective when it can spike as well as 2-3 people by itself, which does not work in Guild Wars.  Because of the team focus of GW, pure spiking classes are naturally unbalanced.  Assassin in GW have the ability to have effective 5 skill chains, which makes them spikers.  Ideally the assassin's chain could only be 3 skills effectively, and the rest of the bar would be snares, kiting skills, and/or self buffs. However, the assassin was not implemented very thoughtfully, and we now have a broken class.  This is further proven by the fact that assassins see the most use in HB, a broken PvP form.  I really wish the assassin was a balanced class, but it is not.  It currently promotes skill-less play, and spike focus.  The fact that you consider Warriors broken and Necromancers underpowered just shows how little you know about this game.  --[[image:User_FlamingMetroid_Metroidsig.png ‎| 19px]] Metroid  19:17, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds like someone got their ass raped by a few assassins in their time. I used to think the same thing but they really do belong in PvP. They take people down so fast it's nuts. They're mediocre in PvE...and that's really it.-  Vang uard [[Image:User-VanguardAvatar.PNG]] 19:23, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * someone hasn't MS/DB'd if you think they're mediocre in PvE. The only thing a warrior has over and assassin in PvE is no enchantment reliance and a shield :/ --[[image:User_FlamingMetroid_Metroidsig.png ‎| 19px]] Metroid  19:27, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * My sin runs utility more than DPS in PvE. See my sin for build. It does exactly what it's built to do.-  Vang uard [[Image:User-VanguardAvatar.PNG]] 19:29, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, but you don't need elite enchantment removal in PvE, so... --[[image:User_FlamingMetroid_Metroidsig.png ‎| 19px]] Metroid 19:32, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I use almost the same build as you in PvP, I use dash to run and kill those annoying classes who doesn't know how to fight like a man, like running away while atatcked and strike from distance, like rangers, I also use cure hex to disable necro and meshmer hexes, and enchantments that removes conditions like burning,poison,bleeding etc, think about it, in fort aspenwood I can run and kill the gatekeepers(provided there is no annoying bonders)in fort aspenwood, and it takes 3/4 players to stop me from doing so, a ranger,meshmer,necro alone can't stop me. Again, most disgusting build is behind the gate bonders in fort Aspenwood, Iwonder why aren't teh developper's nerfing it, sometimes 2/3 bonders are at the Kurzick side and we can't get through the door, even with enchant removers it is annoying if there is 2 or more monk, so  Ilove killing them. I think assassins should be buffed to kill those annoying monks. And what about ranger build, ranger stances that blocks attacks are annoying, eve nwith fox's promise I can't hit them with my normal dagger chains, so fox's promise should be buffed. so that I can take revenge. So sins are really a great class eve nafter the nerf. Monks, ranger stances should be nerfed as they are annoying.60.240.51.3 13:43, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * by the way, I also 2 speciallized PVE build, that I am not going to tell you, I belive those builds are the strongest in

PVE, besides no other classes except sins can use those builds effectively, I use two major nerfed elites which are not used by anyone now, but Ido max dmg with those nerfed elites, as I know how to do it,how to use a skill combo, it is only possible for a assassin primary, I don't show that build to anyone as I klnow when more people is going to use it, they will nerf it. So what yopu say isn't matter, assassins still rule hehe60.240.51.3 13:43, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Comment on the comments
Lol, seriously... 84.87.168.39 13:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Awwwwwww
Incendiary arrows was my 20-day favourite elite :( now you nerf it :(:(:( Not funny, arenanet. <font color="#000999">Ninjas In The Sky  19:17, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

other changes
i may have missed it, but there has been a change to the text for creating bonus weapons. 76.121.95.28 19:19, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Sins are my favourite class too!
Discuss.--210.9.143.9 13:34, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * <3 --[[image:User_FlamingMetroid_Metroidsig.png ‎| 19px]] Metroid 02:12, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

No one commented on...
This?..."Next month's update will focus primarily on balance and pacing issues associated with many PvE titles.". If balance and pacing is code for "we should have never put these in the game" then I would have to agree. Anyone want to guess what else besides cryway is going to get a free month off before the nerf-bat hits? 98.219.48.111 16:25, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Care to explain what you have against PvE titles? They're like trophies, they might be pointless, but some of us have worked really hard to earn them and enjoy bragging rights... ShadowfaxSTF 20:10, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yea, I'm afraid they're going to murder some of my favorite PvE skills.-  Vang uard [[Image:User-VanguardAvatar.PNG]] 20:12, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm the proud owner of a GWAMM plus a couple Shadowfax so the titles themselves clearly don't bother me. Its the horribly imba nature of some of the skills associated with them that does.  Necrosis, as an example, was nerfed within an hour of its initial implementation only to come back down the road when power-creeped PvE skills from EotN made it look tame by comparison.  I'd like GW to be hard again and I don't see personally handicapping myself by doing stupid things like; all hench, no elite, naked(?) as viable options to get there.  I use one and only one PvE skill on a fairly regular basis and thats Mindbender because of its sheer utility as a combination of a running skill and essentially 15FC.  If they took it away tomorrow I could still do absolutely anything in GW...sadly I don't think the majority of the current playerbase can live without these skills now.  98.219.48.111 14:30, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Aye, I think that's the big issue. PvE skills ruin the PvE community. Skill and originality are gone, replaced by grind to boost PvE skill power...the Ursan nerf was good, but the pve meta had already been ruined with EoTN. Unless EoTN was nuked entirely, there isn't a really good solution to the issue now...I'm waiting for GW2 with hope that Anet goes back to its original ways that made GW great. If you look at the reviews of the different GW games, on pretty much any review site, the reviews fall lower and lower as more campaigns are released, falling from an average score of 89 of 100 to 79 of 100, with the lowest score for EoTN being a dismal 60 (Stats taken from Metacritic). GW2 needs to go back to what originally made GW great: Good lore, balanced play, and minimal grind. When I made my first character, my warrior, I remember clearly going through the game, and not grinding once, being fine, and having fun advancing steadily through the game. I also remember going through Factions, and being smacked in the face when I had to grind faction to advance in the game. I remember starting NF and grinding Sunspear rep to advance. And now I'm grinding rep in EoTN to be able to even get a group in high-end PvE. Somewhere, something went wrong, and Anet needs to get their stuff together. - Warior Kronos [[Image:User_Warior_Kronos_Sig.jpg|18px|]] 02:00, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree with you. "Good Lore,": If you can understand the Prophecies storyline, I envy you. It made no sense whatsoever to me. It still doesn't. Factions was just a cut-and-paste storyline, so, while it wasn't original, at least it made sense. Nightfall was in between -- just confusing enough to get the basic gist of the situation, without knowing why. EotN's story was as confusing as Prophecies's. "Balanced play": Was there ever really a time when Guild Wars was 'balanced'? I was under the impression that the only real balance in Prophecies was the viability of so many counteracting gimmicks. "Balanced" builds were simply decent against everything. Or, that's what I've noticed. "Minimal Grind": Lol, unless they changed Prophecies, I would have to say it has the most irritating grind of any of them -- getting to level 20 in Prophecies is harsh, especially because I'm used to Factions' 5-hour level 20. Factions's grind was extremely minimal, in my opinion -- the ONLY grind I know of in Factions is the one(or two) 10,000 faction quest(s), and that was just a forced PvP vacation to me.
 * I'm just saying, I disagree with the assertion that every step that Arenanet made after April 25, 2006 was a horrible, horrible mistake -- and, to be honest, I think the most significant mistake they've made was to totally abandon GW1 and make GW2. If their method of solving problems includes throwing $150+ of money I've paid in the trash, I simply won't invest my money in their products.--Kite 02:49, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Umm just a random question but i thought it said that next months update is going to be just about the grind in PvE titles. So what effect would that make on the PvE skills? I know that the titles affect the power of the skills but wouldnt a update for the titles just affect the pace that the skills become more powerfull? Because i thought that the big PvE skill update was the one a few months back and that this was just for the titles. --<font color="Black" >A <font color="Red" >zreal <font color="Black">o <font color="Red">f <font color="Black" >S <font color="Red">kyrim  21:04, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
 * IMO grind needs to be removed from ALL skills. PvE skills should be changed to use normal attributes like other skills. PvE skills should be the same as PvP skills with 2 exceptions-


 * They are more powerful and can be used in imbalanced ways since you can't be "unfair" to monsters.


 * Because of this, they are banned in PvP. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:96.233.11.131 (talk).
 * The way I interpreted it when I started this section was that pacing was a direct reference to their extreme overbuff on title track skills in an attempt to reduce grind that shouldn't exist to begin with. If the upcoming change actually relates to how the ranks progress that's an interesting point I hadn't considered.  Under the current scaling there is almost no reason for the casual gamer to finish a title track, grind doubles as you approach maximum while scaling screeches to a halt.  Again though, it comes full circle...if the entire concept is so clearly flawed in both design and implementation to warrant multiple game destroying abuses and their subsequent nerfs why put this trash into the game to begin with?  Over time I have come to realize nearly all the pre-pubescent Mtv watching illiterates out there who flood the channel with "how do i get the hat??1?!one" during event weekends can't produce deductive reasoning solid enough to play their Naruto clone w/o Critical Agility or their precious Imbagon w/o "TntF", etc.  It never occurs to these same people they shouldn't be able to play at the level of the truly good PvEers (the few that still actively play GW anymore) just by maxing out a title track.  This sense of entitlement annoys the hell out of me and makes the game worse for everyone whether they realize it or not.  98.219.48.111 18:35, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

By the way, when GW2 comes out, as long as a fair amount of people still play, gw 1 will still be running. So if you don't like gw2, then just stay there, though it won't be updated as often. (though they'd BETTER keep holidays.) Anyway, I dissagree about prophs and eotn being hard to undedstand. Those were the two best storylines, no competition.--70.71.240.170 04:05, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Best of the series doesn't make it good. Factions storyline didn't exist, and Nightfall was so convoluted that I stopped caring at about Kourna. It doesn't say much if prophecies beats those two tbh :/ - Auron 04:12, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You mean the Goddess of Affirmitive Action wasn't a compelling and dramatic enough conclusion to Nightfall for you? Bad enough the character was extraordinarily poorly written she doesn't even help you fight.  To top it all off she can't control her own domain for 5 minutes after you finish slaying an actual god deposed almost entirely for her benefit allowing a hostile margonite takeover which again she is conspicuously absent from.  I guess the premise was "the journey is the reward" because she gets deified and you get shitty green weapons as your reward for traveling where not even Xunlai Agents dare to tread.  They also saw fit in this campaign to virtually ignore and marginalize to shadowy manipulation some of the games oldest antagonists, Menzies and Dhuum...I'll never understand that one.  In a lot of ways Prophecies was better written and more traditionally plausible fantasy.  Its not an accident pre-sear remains extremely popular even to this day 3+ years in.  98.219.48.111 17:30, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * pre-searing popularity has nothing to do with storyline. there is no story-line in pre-searing. --[[Image:User Mafaraxas_sigimg.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas  04:25, 24 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Uh... yes, there is, The Last Day Dawns (cinematic) -> Message from a Friend -> War Preparations -> ... -> Further Adventures -> Unsettling Rumors -> A Second Profession -> The Path to Glory -> Ascalon Academy -> The Searing (cinematic). Not mission-worty maybe, but the quests also follow a story.--Fighterdoken 04:41, 24 October 2008 (UTC)