Talk:Game updates/Archive 9

Next update: Sword warriors & Rangers please
Warriors and especially sword warriors need some love. Warrior is like dervish a class that gets its own attribute lines abused against them all the time (tactics, earth prayers) and this makes for a sad panda. any or all of the above please, swords suck phenomenally compared to axes higher DPS, crits and adren based interrupts and hammers knockdowns! Swords should be about crippling and condition pressure right!? Hammers seem fine and will be fixed if you change Wild Blow (the current shit with W/P who switch to spear just to use Wild throw is DUMB!). Axe warriors are fine anyways. And please buff damage rangers up a bit in a way that they have to SACRIFICE interrupts and conditions for DAMAGE instead of pushing them into the role of condition spreading and 123magebane-spamming OR picking up melee weapons with escape! It's not hard to fix rangers without making R-Spike overpowered!
 * Change adrenaline mechanics that you gain 1 strike even when an attack is blocked (but not when blinded). Getting blocked should make you even more angry, at least it does make me angry! And angry IRL that I don't get any adrenaline from it.
 * Change Sever Artery to 2 or 3 adren cost, with the recent Jagged Strike buff and the state of Barbed Spear, the current state of SA is ridiculously underpowered.
 * Change Wild Blow to "lose half of your adrenaline" please
 * Other sword attacks improvements, for example for Galrath Slash (1 less adren, see Body Blow..), Hamstring (10 cd, 5e cost), Final Thrust (no adren loss or lower adren cost) and Quivering Blade (daze when blocked or longer daze duration, or add silencing sword upgrades)
 * Change Savage shot to "if this action interrupts a spell, you deal +X damage, if it doesn't, it deals only X damage" (like dshot's damage if you interrupt a non-spell or nothing at all)
 * Change Read the Wind PvP to 1...4..5 bonus damage, no bonus damage at all is just stupid.
 * NERF Burning Arrow and Magebane Shot a little. They are so incredibly overused it's not funny anymore.
 * Fix D-Shot skill disable duration. It should be  instead of unlinked 20 seconds.
 * Fix Escape to end on sucessful attack hit, increase its duration to 12 seconds
 * Fix Whirling Defense by downscaling duration and cooldown
 * Revert Hunter's Shot partially, either bonus damage or activation time, it's overnerfed. I'm for 1 sec activation time.

Thanks for reading.


 * Magebane and Escape were the only things you said that made sense. King Neoterikos 02:10, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No. Compare Sever Artery to Barbed Spear or Jagged Strike
 * Stop being terrible. --Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 02:50, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * First, one must realize why everyone uses Burning Arrow or Magebane Shot (or Escape on melee rangers, lol). (Hint: it's not because there's a lot of useful ranger elites.) -~=Sparky  User Sparky, the Tainted charr sig.PNG  (talk)  03:01, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * There is a difference between knowing the path of balance and walking the path. --Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 03:04, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The whole awesomeness of balance of adrenaline lies in the fact that you can decide the tempo of adrenal gain of the opponent by being a good protter and stuff (or if your gay Bsurge but lets exclude imba skills and builds).Don't change that or you make warriors as broken as Dervishes with normal scythe damage Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] *poke*  04:48, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Hint for sparky: Maybe because those 2 are overpowered? And not because everything else is underpowered? Buffing up everything else will just lead to EVEN MORE power creep and we don't want that. The problem for rangers lies within their regular bow attacks and preparations. And a bit in the re-fire rate of bows. And we can't exclude Bsurge and other stuff but that needs a nerf too so...


 * I find it somewhat sad that Cripshot was power creeped out by Mel's shot (which both of you seem to have forgotten about, btw). Regardless, the reason so few elites are used on rangers is because ranger elites lack good functionality (90% of expertise elites focus on energy management, lol), not necessarily because those elites are overpowered. Overused != overpowered. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 22:18, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe that melshot is also run because it is so more then cripshot it isn't *just* mobility control.And I wouldn't be suprised that when spike power gets nerfed rly hard Cripshot would take the upper hand instantly Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] *poke*  07:15, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Melshot is pretty horrible compared to Crippling now IMO with all the nerfs. Its only saving grace is 5e cost. I agree with most stuff above, especially the Savage shot issue, with that nerfed, damage skills could probably dare to see the light again for rangers. And with sever artery at 2 adren, swords could do what they were designed to do: Condition pressure. (Eg. cover up Gash's deepwound with bleeding. If you right now get 4 adren for bleeding, use sever artery and get another 4 adren, bleeding is already long removed). --62.158.98.207 08:34, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * So what do Cripslash warriors do in GvG if they don't pressure? King Neoterikos 03:37, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Suck and die? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 04:02, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess some people aren't getting the hint. I'm not going to point out any names. Burning Arrow has always been a poor elite, and Magebane Shot is only useful becuase rangers already have powerful interruption capabilities. The majority of ranger elites are useless or nearly useless (I ran out words, so I added some more). -~=Sparky  User Sparky, the Tainted charr sig.PNG  (talk)  04:10, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Half of those are used. -- -Ch  ao  s-   11:58, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Aggree with sword war... made similar comments on the skill suggestion page... MrPaladin talk 13:04, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Shitter builds don't count as "being used". -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 14:40, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion for a system to update PvP skills
There are a lot of ppl who scream for skill updates, because they think certain skill descriptions look OP or creeped compared to other skills. The funny thing is, that all these skill-change suggestions are very versatile, and they all have their compelling reasons why the skill should be changed. While these arguments are sometimes very amusing to read, they’re always just someone’s opinion! And I’m afraid that I sometimes have the feeling that the loudest shouters do get their right every now and then. Don’t forget that there are also a lot of ppl that just play the game, and who would also like to see some changes, but keep their opinions to themselves!

Now, the problem with sole opinions on skill changes (being posted on this site, or not) is that they always consist of qualitative reasoning instead of quantitative reasoning. Because you can’t ask the opinions of every single player in the game, I recommend looking at mere numbers instead! Only large numbers (according to the law of large numbers) can give you a real (and thus: fair) balanced overview.

Now my suggestion for PvP (or at least core PvP: GvG, HA, TA, RA): At the start of every PvP match: Give every equipped skill 1 point! At the end of the match: give every equipped skill at the winning side 3 extra points! At the end of each month: Nerf the 5 elite skills and the 20 normal skills with the highest number of points, and buff the 5 elite skills and 20 normal skills with the lowest number or no points at all. In the long run, you could even think of putting in a similar profession-based system as well. Maybe it sounds very simple, but it would make the game statistically a lot more balanced.

Thanks for reading (pls, feel free to move this post if not in the correct place) - 84.24.165.130 15:49, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Bullet pointing has become an inevitable part of the Game Updates talk, huh?

So? Those people can speak their opinions, they can make a change. But they chose not to. Why should it be used as an argument? "Don't forget that there are a lot of smart people out there who don't have degrees", what good will that bring in an argument?
 * About your first sentence: Tell me this, does 500 damage with no drawbacks available to everyone compared to something stinky, not powercreeped? Or in PvP, something stinky, against 500 damage?
 * Those changes can be as versatile as they want and the skill deserved it's change as much that it needed, when you superbuff a balanced skill, it becomes broken. It doesn't matter which.
 * HEY, GUESS WHAT? Politicians use opinions too! Horrifying example, but still. Good changes come from opinions. Even if there is a fact, some people will treat it as an opinion. So, how do you know they're not facts?
 * "Don’t forget that there are also a lot of ppl that just play the game, and who would also like to see some changes, but keep their opinions to themselves!"
 * lol at the idea of Quantity over Quality. In Democracy, in 80% of the times, the quality of the ideas mean shit, whilst the quantity is the decision maker. "Nah, our toilets explode every time someone sits on them, but hey, we did manufacture 5 billion of 'em, so they're awesome!"-is that what you're saying? And about the last part of that paragraph - the PvE changes and increased Powercreep were delivered to the majority of the community. What the community wants is more "LOOOL DOMMMMAAAAAGGGEEEE", and less "hey people l2think".
 * See buffs to every unused skill in the game and nerf the overused ones is probably the most game breaking idea out there. Imagine buffs to Spirit Rift (wait make that almost all Channeling Magic), Smiter's Boon (PvP), Aegis (PvP), Whirling Axe, Charging Strike, Endure Pain, and the list goes to spread, across skills noone wants to see buffed. And imagine the overused and not overpowered skills used, like Holy Veil or Word of Healing. Whilst the system itself is simple and plain, it doesn't reflect the balancing needs that GW needs.
 * Best of regards, -- The preceding comment was written by  Titani [[image:User Titani Ertan Sig2.jpg|19x19px]]  Ertan   Snappy the Turtle 
 * This proposed system would be horribly skewed. For example, if there are two overpowered skills which are interchangeable (maybe they're duplicate skills) and an overpowered build only needs one of them, each of those skills would only get half as many points as they would have if only one of them was overpowered, while skills with unique and important functions such as Resurrection Signet and Charm Animal would get large numbers of points. The system would also be biased against expansion professions due to their smaller skill pools, and biased against non-elite skills because nearly 1/4 of the skills are elite, but they can only use 1/8 of the skill slots. -- [[Image:User Gordon Ecker sig.png]] Gordon Ecker (talk) 19:29, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * @snappy the turtle: Thx for the very interesting, and imo entertaining countercomment. The arguments you give, might be true, but are again: mostly just an opinion. So, they might be facts, but others may disagree (me for one). Mere numbers, on the other hand, are factual. Another thing: qualitative reasoning, although very interesting, is reasoning without knowing most of the facts or at least without knowing all of the facts. It’s funny you start about politics; they are absolute winners in qualitative reasoning. Imo, one of the main reasons why our world is so 'imbalanced' (qualitative reasoning from my side here :), so please ignore last sentence).
 * I’m afraid I don’t want to comment on your post content-wise, cause that would be just me doing the exact same qualitative and emotional reasoning as you do. Although, nothing wrong with that (don’t want to start a war here), but to prove a point here, I’d rather refrain myself.
 * @Gordon Ecker: You’ve got some good points there! Though, I do believe you can easily fix that by making the (simple) system I proposed a bit more complex. For instance by giving the Faction + Nightfall skills relative multipliers on their accrued points; leaving the Res Sig out of the system (or give it a very small multiplier); counting duplicate skills as one skill only; etc. I was thinking about this before, but to keep my original post slightly simple I left out details like that.
 * At both of you, thx for the replies! - 84.24.165.130 22:12, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you even play the game? The obvious answer is no. King Neoterikos 22:20, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Guess what you just presented? An opinion. Good job!

That idea is terrible on two main accounts: 1. Quality over quantity (guess why WoW and GW - back when it was balanced properly - nerfed the same thing multiple times, whether that was paragons or death knights?) and 2. Overuse of a skill does not imply that said skill is overpowered. Ever.

Now, if you were to give points based on how often a skill was abused, that might be something, but apparently abuse vs use is a difficult concept for people who play this game.

Your proposed changes would make the monthly updates basically random buffs and nerfs, which this game needs far, far less of.

-- Armond Warblade 00:25, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Random buffs & nerfs would be better than Izzy's updates, tbfh. --Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 02:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but some skills are just obviously terrible and should be buffed (read: Revive Animal).
 * Not LOL LET'S MAKE IT INTO A GIANT HOLY LASER buffed (read: Ray of Judgment), but enough to see the light of day. Anet has a track record of... well, let's just say that they don't have a very light touch when it comes to nerfs and buffs, and the concept of "fine tuning" seems to be lost on them (read: Warrior's Endurance).  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  09:50, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * @Armond Warblade: I don’t think my openings-post is an opinion. I’d rather look at it as a suggestion, and it’s up to all the opinionposters to agree or disagree with ‘’it’’ (not with me).
 * Though, if you’d like to read my opinion, here it goes: First of all, I’m trying to play a bit of a Devil’s Advocate here. I actually myself wouldn’t really want a rigorous system change like that! But I do believe that at least something needs to be changed, regarding the skill balancing system that is in place now (as far as there is one!)
 * For instance, since the very first day GW came out, the Monk has been some kind of a special character all along. Strange: because when I created a PvP character I somehow missed the golden frame around his head, presenting it as an elite profession! Now, me, ignorant as I am, started the very first day with a Ranger and a Necro (Not totally true, but for argument sake). And the worst thing is, I fell in love with these professions. Stupid me, if I’ve only fell in love with one of the elite professions: say Monk and Warrior, and started to put as much effort and playing hours into these characters as I did into the other two characters, I’d probably now be in a top 100 guild, significantly higher ranked than I am right now, and would’ve had a higher champion title.
 * Sure, my opinion is a bit exaggerated (proving another point on qualitative and emotional opinions), but the idea is clear, I guess. - 84.24.165.130 10:30, 26 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It's actually not very clear at all - to me at least - but we'll pretend it is. Of course you don't want to institute a system like the one you suggested - that's because it's terrible. Of course you want something to be implemented - the current system is terrible. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 13:55, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 2bad that my ‘subtle’ reasoning wasn’t clear enough. But let me put it into more simple terms and leave my ‘colorful’ opinion out of it. I’ll try to be as factual as I can be. Also, to keep the scope very simple as well, let’s just talk about GvG only. I don’t know the actual numbers, but it would be a very safe bet to say that certain primary professions have been run (far) more often in GvG than certain other ones, and always have been. Now the big question: is this balanced? I might add: question is rhetorical. Though if you agree on the Q, please complain to Webster about changing the definition of the word: balanced - 84.24.165.130 18:18, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You clearly don't know the diffrence between overused and overpowered. Learn the difference, as it matters.  Titani [[image:User Titani Ertan Sig2.jpg|19x19px]]  Ertan  { {Snappy the Turtle}} 19:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Superfail at referring to Webster. Of all of these articles, I doubt Webster covers half. You want this one. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 20:44, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * @Armond: No, wiki is a very smart choice of referring to! “It’s on wiki, so it must be right!” … Btw, yes, I can feel the bittersweet irony :)
 * @Titani: Does it matter? For argument sake, let’s just pretend they have 2 totally different meanings. Then I’m just trying to say that ArenaNet should focus on nerfing the overused skills, because you actually know them by fact (or through a simple system)!
 * I don’t care about your opinion on what’s OP, or the opinion of a very high ranked person that’s been playing PvP from the very start of the game (how do you think he/she got his/her title: because they mastered the longest existing gimmick in the game), I don’t even care about my opinion on what’s OP, nor should ArenaNet. ArenaNet should only care about all the opinions of all the players in GW! And merely because it’s impossible to get all the opinions of all players, let alone quantifying/valuating all these opinions, they should at least go in the right direction by nerfing the overused skills! - 84.24.165.130 20:58, 26 August 2009 (UTC)


 * So much fail. Lemme see what I can do here.
 * The fact that it's a wiki means that the content of each article is inherently suspect with regards to being 80%+ accurate. It does not mean that the articles' respective focuses do not exist; thus, the fact that Webster didn't cover them is still a valid point.
 * You cannot say "let's assume that overused != overpowered" and then say "let's go with my original argument of nerfing the overused skills because they must be overpowered". Logicfail in the extreme, and a horribly dramatic way to end your post.
 * There aren't any "very high ranked person[s that have] been playing PvP from the very start of the game", thanks to a combination of Factions being a piece of shit and Starcraft reaching R15 hero. (As for champ points, since the vast majority of good people that played PvP since release left with the releases of either Factions or Nightfall, said good players have zero champ points.) But if they did exist, they wouldn't have gotten their ranks by abusing gimmicks. Do you know why? I'll give explaining a shot.
 * On the First Day, there was Guild Wars. There were rangers with Blackout; there were boon-prot monks; there were Eprod-Heal Party eles. And it was Good.
 * In the Second Month, the spawn of Satan appeared in the form of gimmicks. The gimmick, however, was not devastating; IWAY (iirc) hadn't been formed yet, so it was mostly minion factory (which, before jagged bones, was lolable to a good team).
 * Do you see the problem here? Gimmicks of fame-farm didn't exist for a long time (back in the day, bambis were super-rare, though in fairness fame might have had a rework I didn't hear about). Others would know better than I, but I'm pretty sure it was impossible to fame-farm your way to a high rank and, by the time hero rank became lolable, champ rank was introduced (though so many people have quit by now that even that is lolable).
 * Logic and reason - which you seem to not be applying properly - are what decides what should be changed, not the views of top players like you seem to think (or at least think we think). Neither of those say that healers should be nerfed because everyone brings at least two, or run skills because all flaggers use them.
 * -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 21:27, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

For you and all the people who don't know this, let me italic bold and magnify this for you Overused is in NO WAY overpowred. Now that we got through this, let me tell you why. Holy Veil is overUSED. It is not overPOWERED. Sever Artery is overUSED. It is not overPOWERED. Are we clear? It goes the same for profession. Each of them has a place of right in every PvP form. It's how you use them that makes the change. Personally and from the experience of friends, we played varients of 4 Paragon TA teams and kicked ass, we also played a Ritualist-Monk-Ritualist-Paragon. Now, they may not be overused, but it's not neccecerily bad. Some professions can make a tie breaker simply by being there. For example, Motivation Paragons. For example, PB Mesmers. Overused skills are overused because maybe, have you thought, all other alternatives are bad? So by nerfing those skills, you are sorrounded by crap and let other professions stomp over you. If you nerf an overused skill like Enraging Charge, most Warriors would get themselves an enormous drawback, not because Enraging is an overpowered skill, just because by your definition, it's overused and should be nerfed. Now, let me italic bold and magnify another thing for all you wonderful people: Rank doesn't say shit about skill. No matter who you are. It's just how good you are and how skilled you are. I've met g7 (Gladiator rank 7) people that thought Ride the Lightning causes Exhaustion on the foe you use it on. And yet, I've got friends that are r0 all around and can kick the crap out of almost anyone in a 1v1 or 4v4. But then again, I also have g5 friends that got their tons of Gladiator points through sheer skill, and haven't used a single gimmick to gain points. I'm aspiring to g1 and only earned 1 point using a VoR mesmer. But I'm getting very off topic, so I'm gonna say the Overpowered description to you, my way: An overpowered skill is a skill that just by being there can change the whole outcome of the match, and is much above the par of others skills of its type. That is what I see of an Overpowered skill. I think that Arenanet knows what OP means and what OV means, but so far they didn't do shit to change it. Now a question for you: Why did you purpose a failing system as an alternative to a failing system? Isn't enough fail enough, that you don't need to waste time to test the new failing system?  Titani   Ertan  { {Snappy the Turtle}} 21:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 1v1 is srs bsns. --Super  Igor  [[image:User Super Igor siggy.jpg|19px]] flame my shove sin bar!  21:24, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 84.24.165.130 = EPIC Troll... LoL -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 22:05, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You know what? Flare is overused to an extent, they should nerf it. --Super  Igor  [[image:User Super Igor siggy.jpg|19px]] flame my shove sin bar!  23:41, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * @Armond: Ok, let me analyze your piece of text like you just did mine.
 * On the article you’re proposing (about game balancing). Just read the very first sentences on that one, the ones nicely put in a box with the exclamation mark in front of it, you can’t miss it. I’m sry, but I don’t see any value in that article, for all I know or care, you might even be the writer of it.
 * Now the 80% thing, are you referring to the pareto rule? Or a normal distribution? (Which would both be incorrect to use in this matter, and a totally different subject), but if it means that research shows that 80% of wiki content is true, then I sincerely doubt that this would be 100% factual. But as far as I know, such conducted research could only count for all the wiki articles together (or at least a large number of them)! This means that one specific article can easily be 100% erroneous, untrue, logically flawed or severely skewed. Again, read my first paragraph of this comment, and understand why I don’t see any value in that proposed article (which is imo one big qualitative opinion of the writer(s)).
 * About the overused != overpowered assumption issue: you’re totally misquoting me here, thus presenting 100% untrue information. Though, I know everyone makes mistakes, and therefore, I will give you a moment to read my post again, and hope you’ll see that you’re wrong on that part.
 * About the very high ranked part …: That’s you presenting another opinion as if it was a fact, but which is totally untrue again. Why is that: because I actually know ppl that played PvP from the very start of the game and that are highly ranked … I never said they were maxed (R15) ranked, though (I don’t know anything about Starcraft, or anyone else that might be R15 by now, or by the time you read this. So I’m not assuming that he/she has or hasn’t been playing PvP from the beginning). Anyways, that’s beside the point … my point is, I don’t care and Anet should definitely not care about individual opinions on what’s being OP, not even if it is the opinion of the queen of England herself!
 * Then the rest of your post, about gimmicks and such: Indeed there have been quite a few gimmicks along the road … can you remember Ranger Spirit Spam, or Air Spike (Chain Lightning and Lightning Orb), etc. … They have been nerfed like you guys probably wanted to (and me too, so we’re on the same page here). But the only difference is, I wanted it to be nerfed because everyone was playing it (no originality), not because it was so called OP. I like originality; I like the start of a gimmick, not the overusage of one! However, I think it’s 2bad that so many ppl fail to notice what the longest existing gimmick in the game (2 Monks (and 2 Warriors)) is. And the funny thing is, it’s most of the time the (ab)users themselves that call that gimmick ‘balanced’! ... Yes, you’ve noticed it correctly, that was my individual opinion! So, not really important! Just like your individual opinions!
 * @all the other responses: I now understand, why there are so many GW players not posting on this wiki. Thx for the many (highly emotional, logically derailed and over-qualitative) opinions guys, you’ve been a great help. Don’t worry I won’t post here anymore. You can flame me down to the bone now! gl&hf - 84.24.165.130 09:34, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

<-- This is why you should really shut the fuck up instead of trying to talk about game balance. -- Armond Warblade 06:02, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Good job reading way too much into what I posted. The fact that the article has "multiple issues" doesn't mean the first sentence is inaccurate (which is really all you need); it also doesn't mean that the entire article is a bad overview of the term. If the article were that bad, it would be deleted.
 * "I care about originality, not balance."

Still, ANet will not nerf 8 classes when they can "just" buff 2 classes instead. They do not admit they f'ed up and revert all their skill changes so far, who would do that? They rather bring warriors and monks up to the power level of the others. Also, I didn't say nerf WoH in the current state. I said nerf WoH and to COMPENSATE buff other elites and especialy nonelites for monks. It gets tiring seeing the very same elite on every representant of a specific class, see WoH and Burning Arrow and Visions of Regret. --62.158.75.149 19:46, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

The state of warriors
Warriors need a change. Why still play a Warrior today? All other melees were buffed and buffed while warriors were neglected with each update. As soon as there was any strong warrior skill they nerfed it in subsequent updates. I'm speaking from a "casual" point of view: RA, TA, AB and CM, which is the biggest part of PvP for 90% of the playerbase, and you know that. And PvE. Anyways, in these forms of PvP, Warriors have no place any more. Ok so in conclusion I wanna say:
 * RA: One word: Block. With the current adrenaline mechanics it takes you more than 15 seconds to fuel a "standard" adrenaline bar with all the guardian blocks. Then if you use a skill and it gets blocked, that skill is EMPTY again and takes another 15 seconds to fuel. Plus you sit at 1 adrenaline short for Rush, if you are in Frenzy you are fucked. Why would you choose any warrior over a R/A Dagger-Ranger or D/X with tons of selfheal AND imba scythe damage? Or over a typical Pstrike sin? They got knockdowns too and they aren't so prone to blocking.
 * TA: Haven't seen Warriors in TA for AGES. Balanced runs a MBRanger + Hexer + Ele + Monk. Lolway runs a Necro, 2 MB noobs and a monk.
 * AB: Why play a warrior instead of an assassin?? If you try to cap a shrine with it, every single NPC is long dead by the time you have your adrenaline. Assassin goes there and uses DB/MS or whatever instantly. Or dervish or ranger or anyone with energy based attacks.
 * CM: Let's not even get started about FA, warriors can do nothing except lolturtletank there which is ONE acceptable niche-build and it's kurzick-only. JQ is mostly RoJ-farming.
 * PvE: What's the warrior's role in PvE exactly since factions? I still don't know, because there is LOLS-FORM! to tank anything and everything. When was the last time you saw a group asking for a warrior tank for anything!? Be honest. Even if there weren't SF-Tanks, then people would just take a dervish instead. With the PvE only buffs they got they make way better tanks than any tactics warrior (btw tactics suck for warriors but not casters, the irony, and the "best" tank skill is in Strength) in most cases.
 * Why take a Warrior over any physical in any of the aforementioned examples??
 * Some things you might list:
 * Armor: Just 10 more armor against elemental damage in their base form, most stuff dangerous to physicals is: Degen or Degen or Hexes or even more Hexes (often combined with other Hexes)). Isn't it suprising that EVERYTHING of these completely ignores armor and is equally effective on a sin or a warrior or a dervish? Since the days of prophecies, Guild Wars has undergone a huge change towards armor-ignorance, think about it.
 * Knockdowns: Okay, warriors got stonefist insignia. That's actually pretty cool. It sometimes shines against nooby monks that don't bring Balanced/Dolyak and don't prot to LOLBLOCK your KDs.
 * Else? That's about everything I can think of that makes warriors truly unique. Except for a horribly broken adrenaline system. I hate to bring up WoW here, but in WoW a warrior's big advantage is the neverending rage system. Casters have limited mana while the warrior constantly gets rage, casters can actually run out of mana there, and then they are prey for warriors. How is the situation in Guild Wars? For the "HUGE BENEFIT" of adrenaline attacks that they don't cost any energy, warriors suffer from their 2-E-Regen pips which basically restricts them to running a few adrenaline skills at least and no expensive energy skills. That isn't an advantage at all, think about it. Then there's the recharge issue with adrenaline. If a dervish skill gets blocked, wait 4-12 seconds and it's ready again, same for 'sins. If Backbreaker gets blocked, have fun trying to get the adrenaline again for like 25 seconds with blocking. (Unless you devote yet another skillslot to a THIRD stance)


 * My suggestion:
 * Make many adrenaline skills 1 strike cheaper and
 * Give 1 adrenaline when your attack is blocked. Or at least 1/2 strike. But not zero.

If you don't agree please don't troll like a dumb idiot but bring your point across politely, thanks. Note that also I'm not complaining about warriors not being able to do damage, my complaint is about warriors not being able to actually actively use their skills. Even if you reduced all bonus damage on all adrenaline skills by a chunk in exchange for adrenaline system changes, that'd be fine! I just dont wan't to spend all day standing around (autoattacking stuff) because I cannot get the adrenaline needed to attempt to use a skill. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.158.75.149 (talk).
 * Warriors are actually the most balanced profession in Guild Wars. They are so well balanced that in any PvP mode people need to either dedicate skills in order to avoid them (by using some kind of anti-melee) or die; the DPS of a warrior without any attack skill is enough to kill a character even through healing. They also have the perfect combination of being powerful yet requiring skill, thanks to how they need to worry about positioning (unlike assassins) and need to rely on adrenaline.
 * Your suggestions are bad ideas, first because you are assuming a dervish is better than a warrior (and it isn't; a warrior has a lot more utility than a dervish, whose only ability is doing Big Damage, but then again a warrior/dervish using a scythe can do even more), and second because you would like to apply the power creep assassins have suffered to what is a balanced profession. If assassins can kill faster than warriors and tank better than warriors, it's not that warriors need to be buffed; rather, assassins have to be nerfed. As the most balanced thing in the game, other professions have to be taken to the level of a warrior, not the other way around.
 * (And for the records, this isn't the place for suggestions. No one from Arena Net reads suggestions in this talk page.) Erasculio 10:54, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay to your points:

--62.158.75.149 11:05, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * People need to dedicate defensive skills against ANY physical class or they will die, this has nothing to do with warriors at all
 * Your statement that an autoattacking warrior can kill someone through healing is ridiculous. And you know that.
 * Not getting any adrenaline or getting any is not about your skill. It's about the skill of the attacked player, how much he block or blindspams you, this is WRONG on so many levels and has nothing to do with your own skill as a warrior.
 * What "utility" are we talking about? All of a warrior's utility can be summed up in ONE word: Knockdowns A dervish has way more utility than a warrior. Dervishes can cripple on-demand, blindbot, be healers or damage dealers, can deepwound spam covered by bleeding, can abuse a skill to safely remove stances without any drawback whatsoever, have even higher autoattacking damage than Warriors. They have bleeding, crippled, deep wound, enchant removal, they have everything but interrupts and knockdowns.
 * W/D using a scythe cannot do more damage since the Warrior's Endurance nerf
 * What path do you think ANet will walk? Nerfing 9 other classes to prophecies-level like the warrior is, or buff 1 class? I think you know the answer already. The past years show them clearly to everyone.
 * Let me word what you said all over your posts:
 * Warriors are balanced. Assassins and Dervishes aren't.
 * Do we need repeat? Very well.
 * Because of the very big damage nature of Warriors, it is obvious that every class has a protection against them, and Warriors have a balance system of Adrenaline. Assassins and Dervishes don't have that balance system, from those reasons or others. Therefor, they are imbalanced, whilst warriors are.
 * If you buff Warriors to remove that balance system, all Physicals and damage dealing Casters will be overpowered, and thats The End for the game.  Titani [[image:User Titani Ertan Sig2.jpg|19x19px]]  Ertan  { {Snappy the Turtle}} 11:43, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * @ IP the problem is not warriors being to weak.Buffing their power would be a insane thing to do.Monks already are to weak.I'd also like to note that Adrenaline is balanced as it is but skills like empathy and insidious are downright retarded in that format (and tbh retarded in general).The problem is the SPAMMABILITY of counters like empathy,insidious and just blind in general (EDA and Bsurge need to get nuked,Bsurge in general ,EDA in Low lvl pvp).I'd also like to note that people are forced to take blockstances BECAUSE of the immense powercreep and how it has a direct impact on the new players.They don't kite they just click their blockstance :/.Fix what has to be fixed.Don't buff warriors to a point as retarded as dervishes and assassins because warriors still have stuff like bull's strike and WILL pose a much bigger threat if buffed. Lilondra [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] *poke*  11:51, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * So you are basically agreeing that warriors are a lot weaker than dervish and assassin and that melee counters are currently OP which is what I wanted to hear. I don't care if they nerf the 8 other classes or if they buff warrior and monk, but do something. The difference in power level gives no incentive AT ALL to play a warrior right now, when other classes can do it all BETTER. I don't care for nerf or buff, I want them to be brought IN LINE, and make this game more active. I have to put emphasis on this again: I want this game to be more active. Reduce all adrenaline skills cost and damage by 50% and there you have a more active playstyle instead of "wail on the target for 20 seconds then press 12345". I know this "solution" is too general, I only said it so you get a clue what I mean. The same for hexclasses please. Halve energy cost, duration and recharge of all hexskills. Especially necros are extreeeemely passive. Hexes lasting 37 seconds? HELL NO. Please don't encourage this passive playstyle "slap 12345hex on target X, wait for recharge, slap 12345hex on target Y". I have little hope that they actually rescue this game this late though, they don't really care any more. --62.158.75.149 12:44, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * ...........Crazy buffing Warriors and Hexers in general is the 3rd most worst idea I have ever heard. Go and PvP for 5 minutes and realize why.  Titani [[image:User Titani Ertan Sig2.jpg|19x19px]]  Ertan  { {Snappy the Turtle}} 12:53, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You DO realize that cutting energy cost, recharge and duration in half is a nerf to hexers, right?? It makes them more active, because they cannot slap a hex on and lol-/dance for over half a minute. It also increases time spent recasting and makes more vulnerable against interrupts. --62.158.75.149 16:29, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Your Idea is simply retarded.And thats the only way we can put it.Warriors are balanced.They already see play in every format but HB (HB is terribly designed) and are just awesome in general.Buffing them would be a retarded concept.Yes Dervs and sins can DPS for alot more then warriors (ignoring any counters) especially if they run a broken build.They will always deal this much no matter how bad you are.But you ignore that they can only do this much at the same time.Yes they are broken but restricted at the same time. Lilondra [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] *poke*  13:07, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That didn't make any sense to me whatsoever. --62.158.75.149 16:29, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * My Q is, what do warriors excel at that no other class can.... currently it's down to Armor (vs physical) and Stone Fist Insig... War's are ment to be great at Physical Damage at melee range... but they don't have enough in their skill set to effectivly self heal or remove conditions or hexes... and if you use your secondary to handle those downers you have even less to work with to try to outmatch a sin or a derv or any other class you wish... Jump over to PvE where you'd think War would have a bit more love but nope, your role as a tank is squished by 4 other classes and one skill in particular... since you cant tank noone wants your melee damage to upset the agro so guess who doesn't get in the party... In PvE you down to doing stuff with Heros and Hench (sometimes Guild) or just solo farming (ohh wait solo farming your outdone as well, sry)  load up with PvE Only skills that any class can run and you find yourself short there too because of your low energy pool, take the few low energy PvE only skills and the adren powered ones and hope some party wants you... MrPaladin talk 13:37, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Buffin warrior won't fix it.Trust me the problem is about everything but warrior,not the warrior.I'm a main warrior so yh Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] *poke*  13:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Aaah I just lost all I typed. If you think Warriors are underpowered, you need to play Monk more. :) --Sensei 13:58, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You mean how every pug is typing Party Looking for Monk to Go to X... where X is every location in the game? MrPaladin talk 14:10, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Paladin thats a terrible Argument.Monks happen to still be the most effective in what they do.Prot shit.That doesn't mean they aren't UP Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] *poke*  14:14, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It may well be so that monks are underpowered, which is also because of the huge passive overpoweredness of hexes currently (I have 300% more problems against hexgay than physicals), but that doesn't mean that warriors don't need a buff. Monks may too, but warriors do definitely. - Also, WoH needs a nerf, other monk elites need a buff and general NONelite monkskills in all 3 attribute lines need MASSIVE buffs. The power creep shows in Patient Spirit vs Orison of Healing. What healing prayer skill is really worth taking except for those that you see on 99,9% of monkbars? None. Orison sucks, heal other mostly sucks, healing whisper kinda sucks, ethereal light sucks a lot because of recharge, convert hexes sucks, pacifism sucks, purifying veil sucks, reverse hex sucks, shield guardian sucks, vital blessing sucks, almost every smiting skill sucks. --62.158.75.149 16:29, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No the rest needs a nerf.Buffing warriors is a retarded idea wich we already explained.All professions have skills that are rly rly UP either cause they are broken or because anet is lazy.I'd also like to note that nerfing WoH right now is retarded.Since its one of the few things that holds the powercreep back Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] *poke*  16:50, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "Paladin thats a terrible Argument.Monks happen to still be the most effective in what they do.Prot shit.That doesn't mean they aren't UP"... Just highlighting the fact that warriors (espectially in PvE) have no role... no one asks for them... no one looks for them... and if one is in a team they often have to defend their build because other classes are able to out do them because warriors benifits become minimal in HM MrPaladin talk 16:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That because they completely fucked up PvE :/ Its basicly powercreep vs moar powercreep.Warrior's didn't get enough of it.In PvE warriors have to take a scythe to still be effective.A EFFIN SCYTHE..If anet did care about their game and tried to balance it out they wouldn't buff warriors.They would do something about Level 28 foes with tons of armor health and other shit that rely solely on the extra damage they get with their build..My point still stands. Lilondra [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] *poke*  17:05, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm cool with that solution also... but then you get people who say there is no challenge... I don't care what they do, just give warriors some luv... MrPaladin talk 17:21, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You have to nerf both sides to get it balanced.If people say there is a challenge now They are retards Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] *poke*  17:30, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Still, ANet will not nerf 8 classes when they can "just" buff 2 classes instead. They do not admit they f'ed up and revert all their skill changes so far, who would do that? They rather bring warriors and monks up to the power level of the others. Also, I didn't say nerf WoH in the current state. I said nerf WoH and to COMPENSATE buff other elites and especialy nonelites for monks. It gets tiring seeing the very same elite on every representant of a specific class, see WoH and Burning Arrow and Visions of Regret. --62.158.75.149 19:47, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Too all others I won't refer as it's mainly off-topic and really, just think and you'll find where you went wrong.
 * For what you said, that is the most basic mistake A.net made: Buff the Balanced skill/profession and ignore the overpowered ones, thus making moar powercreep and less IQ. Why are you trying to make a (or rather, the only) balanced profession in this game? You enjoying having less IQ? Wasn't WE enough roll your head on keyboard for warriors? Instead of buffing Warriors and making 2% of the community that notices shit leave, and then 5% of the community that later notices shit leave, why don't you refer to the actual problem: Hexes are lolOP+OV and Dervishes and Assassins are lolbroken? (btw, 80% of the community are too retarded to realize what Functionality means so they'll just Copy Pasta what's on PvX, and 13% of the community are fanbows that are too sucked up in A.net's ass so they'll go with GW whatever rolls.)  Titani [[image:User Titani Ertan Sig2.jpg|19x19px]]  Ertan  { {Snappy the Turtle}} 20:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Buff warriors and monk and give everyone 100 more health and 10 more armor. Power creep fixed.


 * Lol, not at all. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 05:53, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

lol @ this entire section. OP plays about as much guild wars as the devs. - Auron 06:03, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Just played warr again with sword and axe, it's a difference like night and day. Axe >>>>>>> sword with its insta unconditional deepwound and badass interrupts aswell as higher crits. Hell with axe twist you can even spam cripple almost better than swords, it's almost like a nonelite crippling slash. Almost.


 * Good job figuring out the obvious and using bad skills. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 14:06, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Good job trolling, being elitist and once again pointing out that sword warrs need a buff.
 * Good job signing, and not learning. Read all the walls of text you yourself written and the counters we written and realize why Armond trolled you.  Titani [[image:User Titani Ertan Sig2.jpg|19x19px]]  Ertan  14:13, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Sword needs some slight buffs. Axe/Hammer are used in any real form of PvP. @original poster, you're ugly. -- -Ch  ao  s-   18:32, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I have been a warrior primary for around 4 years now. I am afraid I have to agree, warriors are the most unwanted class. Just go stand around with a warrior in some of the PVP and Elite missions if you want an example. Warriors are originaly supposed to be damage eaters. Its not so much about the dps as much as it is damage absorbtion and agro control. Remember the old days when tanks were required to get passed some of the harder parts because of the superior armor. Like in Sorrows Furnace to hold the book and take the agro. The warrior armor was once 90, then 100, then draged back down to 80, and 80 with all the block stances, and damage reducing spells really, with a warriors low energy, puts them at a disadvantage when it come to the classic role. Sins and Dervs can compete with a warrior now even surpass them with the exception of a couple of builds like riposite (which at heart is a gimmicky build since if they dont hit you nothing happens lol) Because of their stances and buffs, sins attack speed, dervs 3X hits and higher damage. Warriors do need a slight buffing to put them back into their proper role of damage absorbtion and agrro control. I Know that they dont look here for sugestions, but for sake of discussion. My solution is putting warriors back up to 100 armor inheirently, then Increase the damage numbers on the swords and axes I think hammers are fairly balanced because of all the KD skills. There is no real counter to KD other than Blind. Once you blind a warrior its over for him untill it wears off. If I had my way warriors should also get a stance that will allow them to at least cripple the foe who blinded you so they can run away easily. Blind on a warrior is about the most unfair circumstance in the game, lol Blind completly nutralizes a warrior as he cant hit anything and hence cant even build adrenaline. Meaning he cant really tank or attack... Eitherway I agree, something needs to be done to put warriros back into their role. 66.169.28.180 01:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

A point
I would like to point out that while the preceding walls of text have been very entertaining reading, this is not the place for them. If you have a suggestion for future updates, at this point, the proper place to put them is on a suggestion page in your userspace. This page is for general discussion about game updates, such as the first few topics on the page. Once the Feedback namespace is opened up, you can feel free to recreate your skill/profession/balance suggestions as part of your User suggestion area and at that point the developers will be happy to peruse and possibly comment on your ideas. Until then however, these update suggestions don't belong here and won't be read by anyone who can actually DO anything with them. Thanks and have a great day! -- Wyn  talk  10:07, 27 August 2009 (UTC)