Feedback talk:Skill update previews/20100423

2 days until our 1 month anniversary, guys!
Just 2 days until the 23rd, and then we can celebrate our one month anniversary with this skill update preview. You guys excited? Well anyway, in an attempt to be constructive, what do you guys think about the period of time between the preview and the update? Has it been a good, productive idea or a poor choice? Karate  Jesus  14:23, 21 May 2010  (UTC)
 * It is tiring. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 14:29, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree...it's tiring mostly because of the discussions since there are no clear informations in the previews, which is understandable but still...Lou Wolfskin 14:49, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Constructively speaking, even in the current situation, one assumes this long time could be used by aNet to at least gather info on the general direction and intensity of baaawww'ing resulting from the proposals. However I do feel there should be a bit more feedback for the users. They leave everything there and that's it, so we don't know if they're working, they're listening, they're trolling, eternally postponed... Ideally we would at probably, at least a few "official" posts in this space, possibly gathering and acknowledging user feedback on the proposed changes. Even if not, at least letting us know better where they're going and whether things are moving or not - VileLasagna 15:18, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Fools, Linsey is sick! Don't you know that a multi-million dollar company can't possibly do any work when a single employee is out of commission?! [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 15:27, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Erm, considering that the Live Team currently only consists of two or three designers? Oh, I suppose they can get the community relations people or the web editor to balance skills and design new War in Kryta stuff. Seriously, either you're trolling or you're stupid, neither is desirable. --Santax (talk · contribs) 15:35, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought they would show their previews only 1-2 weeks before the official update. Infested Hydralisk  15:56, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * This has probably been brought up already, but when they accidentally changed the descriptions of the mesmer skills a few weeks ago this guy was good enough to write them down. Would this be the same as what was given out in breach of the NDA? (Xu Davella 16:01, 21 May 2010 (UTC))
 * Nope. If something goes on the server and someone sees it, it's not a leak. It went live, so people are "supposedly" allowed to know about it. If someone breaks the NDA, that's a leak and not permitted on most reputable gaming sites. Karate [[File:User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png]] Jesus  16:09, 21 May 2010  (UTC)
 * Where not permitted = people panic and and act irrationally, yes. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 16:11, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * In the future, they should release previews only when the update is 95-99% finalized. It's not a preview if you're going to spend another month changing things.  By the way, the Mesmer Update was canceled.  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:06, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * ...And you read that where? -Cursed Angel [[Image:User Cursed Angel Signature2.jpg|19px|Q.Q]] 20:27, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "By the way, the Mesmer Update was canceled."


 * Zzz, don't scare people who might read this page. Just because we're knee-deep in incompetence doesn't mean it's canceled. Karate [[File:User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png]] Jesus  20:49, 21 May 2010  (UTC)
 * Fox news told me. Are you questioning the validity of Fox News?  I'm calling the police.  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:14, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * so a corpartion of racist republicans now  play gw O_O Hitojin 21:28, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Scare 'em? General consensus suggests more ppl would be relieved if it was canceled.  I know I would.  Losing FC on almost all my secondary and PvE skills would remove all sensation of "responsiveness" my Mesmer currently grants me. ..which isn't helped by the rumored nerf to Mindbender which I'll remind everyone, isn't exactly easy for noobs to get. (It's almost as bad level 3 of Raven's Point up on that stupid Pyramid). -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 22:20, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * O Brave New World is definitely not difficult. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 01:08, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Anyone take the time to notice the serious unbalance of mesmer skills against melee classes? I play a warrior. I took him out to do a WiK bounty ok cool so far we hit some gargoyles GREAT THEY DIED! Ok so we are trucking along and BAM we hit mantle, fragility, empathy, clumsiness, crippling anguish, poison, bleeding, clumsiness, cant move dead 2.3 seconds WTH I think, ok my henchies and heros didnt last much longer, ressurect, run back and OMG, fragility, empathy, clumsiness, crippling anguish, poison, bleeding, clumsiness, omg I got not energy and seems my hero's are empty too HOW? ether feast ether feast ether feast <-spammed can't move dead 2.3, so ok I go back, and restack heros and myself including lots of condition removal and hex removal as well and bam guess what? Hard Mode mesmers spam their skills there IS NO GETTING OUT FROM UNDER THEM. so ok now I figure this bounty isn't for me, I move on to bigger and better things, I start trying to continue my vanquishing title, empathy, crippling anguish clumsiness omg dead WTH, well lets see, I am all for mesmer buffs, but this is too far to the extreme, I have been in email conversations with guild wars they told me i had to make a third account here to be heard by them

"I certainly understand that some people may be upset when changes are made to the game. However, in a persistent online game, changes will always be necessary. Thus far, there has never been an online game that has stayed exactly the same. As details and content are added, other content must change in order to keep the gameplay fair and balanced.

We appreciate your enthusiasm for Guild Wars, but the support system is not an official venue to share your thoughts and ideas with the Development Team. Due to legal reasons, we are only able to officially accept suggestions through the Guild Wars Wiki. If you require assistance with anything else, please let us know.

Regards, GM CherryViper"

So here I am wasting my precious time in a spot where I know I will not be heard. But since guild wars will not listen to emails, I will try this. yay yet ANOTHER account to remember useless info for to play a video game, you know, I now have more than 3 websites worth of info that I have to remember just to play 1 video game, I do not believe I will buy guild wars 2 after all. I bought all the campaigns of guild wars and the expansion at premium prices, I have played this game for 58 months, Warrior for 3 years of that, I think they need to go back and test the effects of their changes against other professions especially in hard mode PVE. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Rogueonion (talk). (05:20, 2 June 2010)


 * Yeah, sorry mate, hexes are actually dangerous, in case you haven't heard. Speaking of mesmers, you might want to take a look at Expel Hexes, or maybe Hex Eater Signet... maybe a more proactive approach like Hex Eater Vortex... of course, you can actually, instead, carry a prepared monk with something like Blessed Light, Empathic Removal, Deny Hexes, or even good old PnH, who knows (though its recharge and raw power makes it somewhat hero-unfriendly in my opinion), maybe even go on a full scale war and bring Divert Hexes.The choices are there - VileLasagna 23:42, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Warriors are generally pretty weak in GW these days because they were originally designed to be heavy hitters, which meant everyone had a counter for them. Then ANet decided everyone should be heavy hitters, and didn't bother removing the counters for warriors.  Sucks I guess.  My advice is to go W/A and run shadow form.  Or cheat.  –Jette 23:45, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Physical is a two-edged sword. While there's many more ways to enhance it, there are also many more ways to counter it. Also, I'd recommend interrupts over hex removal, generally. Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Neptune.jpg|19px]] 23:53, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Interrupts work as well(I'm a personal fan of mass dazing with fevered dreams, for instance), my point (behind the trolling) was more the fact that hexes have come into play now in PvE, while before you could pretty much ignore most of them most of the time, but counters for hexing were always there, including quite a few good ones. Its just that those kinda got half-forgotten as well. I don't think warriors are weak in GW, I just think they've become kinda niche and lost a lot of focus with the introduction of assassin and dervish also sharing the meelee physical spot with more shiny and obviously abusable stuff. I personally still hold quite the fascination for warriors and warrior builds, and do enjoy them quite a fair bit - VileLasagna 00:01, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I have tried several things, I have played every melee class, and war ... it's just me.I guess I am just tired of having to have my war specialize as oh lord .. anything else to get around stuff, I mean in perfect example, I play rit, so i get into a party and im ready oh so ready to SoS and bam they grab another rit, I already stated SoS BUT theres a ele in the party and wth the only skills they know are.. SoS! so they order the RITS to do a different job instead of dump...the ele which is a ele not a rit PLAY YOUR PROFFESSION lol not mine. But in all seriousness, I think they need to tone down some of the serious ownage skills results on warriors, I for one am probably going to stop playing, I feel as if I am being pushed into my monk or my ele or my rit, and that sucks for guildwars, this update has pretty much eleminated the need for melee classes.Rogueonion 00:22, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * My suggestion is to stop wasting your time with the poor tired old grind that is GW PvE and try out some pvp, where warrior is still king. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 00:25, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Dear, Rogueonion: None of the Devs talk to any of us anymore. There is no account you can make or place you can visit to communicate directly with them anymore unless you get a journalist position at one of these online outfits like Eurogamer or Incgamers.  As for the Mez spam... It's not just your Heroes.  I do the Wanted bounty with a guild team of all human players running all the traditional melee role gimmicks we can and sometimes it's still not enough to outweigh the Mantle's gimmicks.  They are just plain Imba-bots and you can't "out-play" imba-bots, got it?    Your best bet is to clump them and have Gwen spamming Panic if you don't have the option to run an Obsid/Shadow tank.  Good Luck. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 19:27, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Dear, ilr: Thanks for the info and I tend to play at odd hours, so my team 90% of the time consists of me henchmen and heros, I have never been a PuG type person and I guess what guild wars is trying to tell is go caster, because melee has no chance, as well as the single solitary player has no opportunity to play any longer in their game. This is a sad thing, I have played guild wars for almost exactly 5 years in this game, and with the recent responses from support and everywhere else, I just am going to give up. Guild Wars 2 is not something I wish to buy regarding their recent treatment of me regarding this issue. Thank you once more for the information and your time, GLHF Rogueonion 22:53, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You're grossly exaggerating, it's still completely possible to do anything with H/H, with any class. Mesmer foes are not ubiquitous, nor are they unconquerable. You can bring Mesmer heroes too, if you think they are too powerful. Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Neptune.jpg|19px]] 23:06, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You miss the apparent point of PvE, manifold, Gwen and Norgu aren't primary necros, hence they are completely useless and outclassed in every possible way - 00:34, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Alas no I do not grossly exaggerate, the bounty I went after was Cerris, in hard mode, and every time we went up against the first mixed group, lets see I believe we pulled maybe 4 or 5 of them it was pretty much instant death for melee, and this is every time we went against this group, the peace keeper's are ALL secondary mesmer a lot of the time, so the hexes are stacking at ridiculously high speed, considering, that right after that group there is a mesmer boss, who spams crippling anguish on top of all that, it is impossible to fight for a melee class in that spot. Not to mention, that now they spam ether feast on your entire team, ever watched 2 mesmers completely suck the energy out of you and your hero's? I have. Well with no energy, and adrenal denial what is the point? Guild Wars needs to balance the builds so that melee classes have some chance of finishing their titles. period. I am no noob, I run hex removal as a standard on my monk, I run some very effective builds, the problem is, that between the rangers, fragility, and all the mesmer skills locked into all the peace keeper builds nothing melee has a fighting chance. and who wants to run Gwen and Norgu all the time... boring. The point is, they grossly unbalanced the game in pve where warriors are concerned in the name of balancing the game to accommodate mesmers. I should not have to stack mesmer hero's in order to play, this game is going more from pick your way to "ANET makes you be a caster becuase thats what they want," Why don't you take those henchmen out against peace keeper's in a vanquish and tell me how that works out will ya? In reference to the above, I also do not use discord, its lame to spam the same skill over and over and over. I enjoy a tad bit of challenge but, this has become ridiculous, my standard hero setup is usually some combination usually varying, Dunk or Tahlkora, Razah, Vekk, Zhed, or Souske, some form of Ranger, I tend to stay away from the overuse of necros, but yes, it is sometimes efficient to bring along a single Minion Master,depending on what I am about. All of my hero's have runes, all of my hero's have more than 550 hp, All of my hero's have decent weapons with decent proper mods. Rogueonion 17:53, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I've done dozens of h/h WiK vanquishes now, many with melee, not using Discord. It is possible to adapt. Would you mind posting your builds? Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Neptune.jpg|19px]] 18:03, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Go to my member page my war build is the top one, the rest? how would I post it? type it all in? thats A LOT of builds? I should probably note at this point that my war has 600 HP most of the time, and has a proper rune setup as well, Rogueonion 18:15, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * and after some careful thought, I posted this in response to someone questioning the 12 second recharge on most mesmer skills... if you read the fast casting update you will notice that every rank of it reduceds recharge by 3% making all mesmer skills at max fast casting spammable skills, which in my opinion is WHY the update needs to be retested from the perspective of other classes, there is no getting out from under hexes now, you can bring all the hex removal in the world but BECAUSE they now insta recharge, they reapply them pretty much instantly as well, <I mean... really... do the math... Rogueonion 19:44, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You are right about that.. some mobs even have level 20 Attributes in NormalMode. I dunno why, just something they started doing when EotN came out.  I can definitely verify that Ineptitude can be spammed faster than Blinding Surge was before it was nerfed b/c I run Av-of-Mel and SBS against this stuff and just the damage spam alone can kill in a matter of seconds.  PvP'ers who whined about Hexway only saw the tip of the iceberg compared to what some PvE mobs can do now.  Running 2 monk heroes with Divert Hexes may now be necessary gainst mobs with 20-attrib FC'ing & hexway spam.  Either that, or Anet needs to nerf the hell out of monster  regen so that energy denial skills will actually start affecting them -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 21:53, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * This is what I have been trying to very much less than eloquently say. Thank You ilr. Rogueonion 22:07, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You know, this is looking almost like you're complaining that the Mesmer is actually relevant in PvE now. As a primary Mesmer, I'm enjoying experimenting with the idea that I may not need to rely on abusing PvE skills with Assassin's Promise and Arcane Echo in order to be competitive.
 * My secondary, on the other hand, is a Warrior and has done pretty much everything in WiK that my Mesmer has, and from my experience the complaints about hex-spam above are...greatly exaggerated. Being stuck with Empathy can sometimes be a little annoying (but not as common as the above implies), but healers, resurrectors, summoners, HM nukers and any Jade are still higher on my priority list. And I don't think I'm running a particularly heavy hex-removal team. Draxynnic 11:37, 7 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Hrm, well here is the deal, I have met more people having problems regarding pve hard mode and melee classes, and where do you get off thinking a mesmer should be a ele? I personally don't understand why they would make mesmer the class to do massive AoE damages when they nerfed ele for just that. Hrm so mesmer is the new ele good for you, that does not mean that the issues discussed by a multitude of people on guru, here, and in game are wrong. You play a mesmer I am happy for you i'm glad they updated it, para should have been first, it is actually a broken class, mesmer worked JUST fine. I played mesmer across Nightfall, Factions, Prophecies, and EOTN got bored with it most of the way through all of it, there is just SO much degen stacking, interrupting, energy denying, blah blah blah that one can take before they are like... this blows lets do something fun. quite frankly I am glad that your mesmer with secondary warrior <did I read that right? has no problems. But I WOULD like to know why would you run warrior secondary on a mesmer? That does not make any sense to me for build setup, unless your spamming something stupid, or running in with an axe ... yea I can see that.... lol squishy mesmer shuts down war then axes him to death while he cant even move or attack. I do not believe for an instant that I am complaining that mesmer has become relevant, what I am saying is that the fast casting attribute needs a new look regarding pve hard mode monsters and some of the skills that are for melee class shutdown need to be taken into considered consideration. that a mesmer now does AoE armor ignoring dmg, and if a toon is shut down entirely there is no defense and no point in playing for that class I have noticed a drop in melee players in towns, which is interesting since there are now more casters in towns than melee... the proof is in the puddin... I do not care how happy mesmers are, some of this crap needs to be scaled down, not rolled back, but scaled down to give other professions a chance to do what needs be done. Mesmers should not be the only class played and 5 yes five classes are now facing problems because of one class' current buffs, and considering everything else is being nerfed every other month this buff is ridiculous to behold.  Just as 1 skill should not remove a class from action 1 profession should not have such a wide affect on 5 other classes to that extreme. In closing I would like to honestly say, I refuse now to put a mesmer in my group, the 5 times I tried to add a mesmer they were egotistical idiots, I liked it better when they had to be nice to us to stay in party. Don't be a idiot because you are handed power over every other class it just makes me want to point out where your head is.  I stand by it ANET needs to test this in hard mode regarding the point of view of other classes. Rogueonion 17:16, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Part 2
No mesmer skills, no consumable items, h/h, HM, 2/6 of the team using physical (3/6 if you include the MM), and experimental and not very good builds (I didn't get a single daze off): The Jade Armor spawned by Falken was the only trouble I had. You'll notice there's no hex removal on the team, yet I didn't really notice the Mesmers at all. <font color="#008800">Manifold  19:18, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Nice try but there's no tengu, and only one WiK mob in that whole area that would even target you for blinding. IE: Razah's Bar + SY! = your argument is highly circumstantial. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 19:41, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Tengu? We were discussing White Mantle and Peacekeepers and hexes much more than blind. I have a feeling anything I do is going to be hand-waved away. <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Neptune.jpg|19px]] 19:50, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Screencap a Vanq w/o any rit spirits/SY! & without wiping... then you can say any damn thing you want. The point you're missing here is that this is content designed for ppl who beat Prophecies. Not ppl who beat Factions & NF. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 20:01, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * So now this conversation isn't about overpowered Mesmers and underpowered Warriors, but about cross-campaign skill use? When did that happen? Rogueonion certainly never said anything of the sort. Not to mention that beating EoTN is the alternate requirement. Perhaps everyone should only use Prophecies skills and classes during WiK? <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Neptune.jpg|19px]] 20:10, 7 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I use cross campaign skills, anyone who wants to see some of my builds is free to friend list me < I am Rogue Onion. Feel free to hit me up if you would like to take this discussion live, all I ask is that you be polite, no noob calling that is the most disgusting word, I dislike it so much it is almost racial, I have seen the BIGGEST nubbi call someone in the game for 5 years a noob and ... I digress, no I use mixed campaign builds, the item there, is one group yay for you, Try this on, Go to Bettletun, exit into Nebo Terrace, take an immediate right, kill the gargoyles and start to clear that far corner, Truth is, I may just be unlucky in always receiving spawns where the groups are all secondary mesmer or mostly so, it is STILL annoying and I STILL stand by the fact that ANET needs to further test this update from the perspective of other professions in VARIOUS places to maybe look at npc builds, adjust the spammability of the skills, I mean was NOT the slow down of skills on hard mode to allow interrupts by us? if this is so, they counteracted that by making mesmers able to spam their skills, what use interrupting something if they can just hit it again instantly? I have Identified that the TRUE issue I am having is the fast casting attribute, I have been playing monk A LOT since the update, that and ranger, I have not touched my war since the first week of trying to vanquish, I refuse to play him if it is going to be an aggravating time. The point is, I do not believe they took into account that hard mode mesmers would have a higher propensity to spam skills, IE: as monk, with one war, he pings, Empaty < removed he pings INSTANTLY Empathy <removed, now hrm he pings AGAIN EMPATHY <removed one more time... removed. I couldn't keep that dang hex off of him. ON NORMAL MODE. Now I spent ALL my energy removing 1 hex I had no ability to heal, party wipe. mind you I had Tahlkora as backup, she was prots for condition control, I bring hex/condition removal, I manage my energy quite well, there has to be some RELIEF for the melee classes out there, shoot I cannot even play my derv because of spammable enchant removal, spammable skills this is the problem, mesmers can spam their skills at higher levels. ANET needs to further test and fix this not by rolling it back, but by maybe mitigating the damage when there is such a high rate of shutdown allowed in hard mode they should not be able to shutdown AND do high amounts of damage its too much. Now onto the Ether Feast spam in hard mode.  Literally party of 8 without energy due to 4 monsters spamming ether feast and clumsiness this was without WiK in The Black Curtain. As I said, i'm willing to share my builds but I am a fairly decent player, not DA BOMB or SO ELITE save that attitude for the mesmers, they seem to like acting like it. It is funny, I used to take mesmers into my group ALL the time, because I KNOW what they were capable of and appreciated them, no more. They take the fun from the game, too much power in one class should not be had.  Rogueonion 20:31, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You did misread Draxynnic above. He meant that his second most used character is a Warrior. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 21:06, 7 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh and I am talking about Hard Mode Mesmers in general, be it in Magus Stones, or the crystal desert, Be it In the Maguma Jungle, anywhere there are mesmers of higher than level 20 status, to abuse the fast casting insta recharge and spam the skills that were previously non spammable. so be it, tengu, wind riders, Peace keepers, players, whatever, they need to seriously test HARD MODE ENEMIES versus OTHER proffessions. between Empathy and Enchantment removal spam <SPAM because of the new fast casting ability to insta recharge skills it is very hard to remove something that is instantly reapplied the instant you remove it, I stand by my statement > they need to do further testing from the perspective of other classes. Rogueonion 03:47, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Rougeonion: You're almost right. Yes, mesmer creatures have been buffed beyond mere "challenging" and into the the realm of "frustratingly un-fun." Yes, physical classes (1/2 of the professions in the game) are taking the biggest indirect nerf as a result. The real problem, though, is that the countermeasures aren't quite powerful enough to keep up.
 * Hex removal is too damned weak to keep up with the new mesmer buffs. Sure, you can add more removals, but you do so at the risk of leaving yourself without enough heals (or, if you go the mesmer hex removal route, enough counterspells/interrupts/etc.). When you compare de-hexing skills to condition removal, the problem is very obvious (conditions don't really do much more than inconvenience you, thanks to skills like Restore Condition or Life Sheath, or even non-elites like Dismiss Condition).
 * The problem, however, is getting anyone on the dev team to recognize the problem. I've seen people moaning and griping about hexes since I started playing, and so far nothing has been done... except more buffs to hexes (find a mob with both mesmers and necros on it, and you'll see what I'm talking about).
 * Where you aren't right, however, is believing that it's all somehow hopeless. I've managed to adapt several of my hero builds to account for the new hexes, and learned when, and for how long, to ignore (yes, ignore) Empathy in order to get my target out of the way and move on; I've even adjusted my usual target priorities (kill the mesmers before monks, now... it helps).
 * You're also not right in thinking that the buffs only affect physicals. I've had issues with running my ele and necro in spots with the buffed mesmers, and even my mesmer gets choked out in those places.
 * Hopefully, someone is paying attention somewhere, and fixes the problem in an upcoming update (I'm not holding my breath on that... but I'm an optimist at heart). Until then, lean more towards hex removal over condition removal (burning and bleeding build character) and change your tactics a bit, and you should be okay. Ash Dragonshadow 16:08, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Ash has a point there... there's a lot more Mesmer mobs running Backfire, VoR, and other Monk-Shutdowns than there is ones running Empathy & Inept. I know b/c I alternate "mains" between Monk and Dervish which both alternate between backline and melee.  In both cases, my 2 new favorite Elites are Ava-Dwayna & Divert.  There's no doubt that Hexway still needs a nerf or atleast a few of the PvE-only skills ADAPTED to solving it.  but in the meantime, we can adapt ourselves and our heroes to deal with it b/c the rest of the Caster mobs in PvE DID get nerfed.  -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 22:39, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Felix. I did indeed mean that my second most used character is a Warrior. Since this conversation started, I've been paying attention to what Mesmer skills cause my Warrior the most problem if not removed, and it isn't Empathy. It's the adrenaline denial skills - which haven't changed apart from the effect of the Fast Casting buff. Empathy can be dealt with - it just forces a choice on whether you want to take the damage and go for the kill or hang back until it can be used. And Mesmer skills are supposed to be about forcing people to make choices they don't want to, as a soft form of the mind control that Mesmer-like skills are often associated with in games that have true mind control.
 * On the mesmers pretending to be elementalists: Yes, this has, to an extent, occurred, and it's not especially elegant, but sometimes you need to be able to dish out direct damage too. In my time of playing, I also haven't noticed any systematic campaign to nerf Elementalist area of effect spells apart from scatter (which was more aimed at farming anyway, and if it doesn't affect Mesmer AoE effects, it should). There have been a few times when an individual skill has been nerfed, but this has usually been in response to ANet having experimented with improving the skill and then partially reverted it. The only real problem is the Elementalist's interaction with higher armour levels, and I at least find that the Elementalist damage output even in hard mode can be quite significant while inflicting some disruption as well, and the armour-respecting nature means that Elementalist damage can be buffed in a number of ways that Mesmer damage can't (Ebon Battle Standard of Honour, cracked armour, etc) and that while armour ignoring Mesmer damage is constant, Elementalist damage tends to be highest on the things you generally want to kill first (ie, casters) as well as less reliant on other conditions. On the other hand, if Mesmers can pretend to be Elementalists, the reverse has been true all along, especially against physicals. Also, with the double-edged nature of the Fast Casting change, Elementalists now have even more of an advantage at secondary profession skill use.
 * Finally, on the hex removal thing - I've thought for a while that Mesmer hex removal should be improved to the tune of getting rid of some of the extraneous stuff and making the hex removal itself more efficient - but not as a nerf to hexes but as an indirect buff to off-Monk healers (in the current meta you really need Monk hex removal, and once you've got that Monk there's no real point to getting a healing Ritualist to do the rest of that Monk's job). However, there's a fine line between making hex removal so weak that hexes are overpowering and making it so strong that hexes are unimportant. I don't know how it is in PvP, but in PvE I think the line is pretty much correct - as alluded to above, since the update I still find large packets of direct damage, enemy healers, and enemy resurrectors to be a greater inconvenience, pretty much irregardless of which profession I play (which is, incidentally, all of them. Yes, Paragons, Dervishes, and possibly Rangers need some attention too). Draxynnic 05:14, 12 June 2010 (UTC)


 * We are dancing around the main issue, the problem is that removing hexes or mesmer affects is no longer viable in most hard mode scenarios, as the fast casting buff made the pve monsters skills pretty much instantly recharge so as you remove a hex it is instantly reapplied. I stand by what I said, ANET needs to get the "test krewe" off their asses playing guild wars 2 or whatever it is they are doing and onto testing the changes that have been introduced to the world. Rogueonion 06:48, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
 * So, in a nutshell. The problem is that in Hard Mode, all mesmer foes have at least 60% skill recharge reduction. This, coupled with the newly buffed mesmer skills and pve foes' already limitless energy pools, makes for frustrating and overly difficult gameplay. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 07:36, 12 June 2010 (UTC)


 * ^^ especially for people who play melee Rogueonion 14:20, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You want this pathetically easy game to get dumbed down even more?  Koda  [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_UT.jpeg‎|19px]]  Kumi  15:17, 12 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Lol if it is that easy, stop playing. Koda... They just did that to mesmer because of all the whiners about "I need to do damage AND shut everything down, because if I am not all powerful I can't call everyone else a noob" <current mesmer mentality btw. I still REFUSE to put mesmers in my group because of the update and will continue to not accept mesmers until damage mitigation is made for melee classes in pve hardmode. But when one consideres all anti melee hexes are 8 second recharge or under, then add the fast casting buff to that recharge time yes they are instantly recharging. Rogueonion 15:20, 12 June 2010 (UTC)


 * @Felix If you have information regarding enemy energy please amend the relevant section on the Creature page. <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Neptune.jpg|19px]] 15:24, 12 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Well now you've lost me... infact now you just sound like a highly prejudiced life-long Wammo player who's always hated mesmers ...which would explain why you don't have enough skills unlocked to properly counter Mesmers. IE:  The best Counter a gimmick mesmer, is to run a mesmer of your own or atleast something that emulates one.  It's not a rock paper scissors situation, it's a rock vs bigger rock situation.  And the "bigger" part comes from the fact that a computer AI can't adapt and learn like an intelligent person can.  IE:  Do some Research and learn where to find bigger rocks -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 18:19, 12 June 2010 (UTC)


 * ohohohoh I have a GRAND idea, lets super power the monk smiting line, and make mesmers take triple damage from it, and allow monks to cast a skill that cancels all mesmer skills at once. THEN make THAT skill INSTANTLY recharge. <sarcasm but since they took away my wars ability to fight.. what more do i have to do than troll here and be ridiculed by a bunch of mesmers? when I know nobody from anet is reading this so, ok I will just keep typing and adding and adding=) Rogueonion 15:34, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Speaking of snark... Way to go on that whole "Oooh here's a good idea, I'll post a huge wall o text" to Emily's page!" cuz we know how much CR's love reading TL;DR complaints about shit they have absolutely no control over so they can pass it along to the same Devs who gave up on reading the Wiki specifically b/c it constantly filled their talk pages with Huge snarky walls O' Text instead of short succinct questions. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 18:27, 12 June 2010 (UTC)


 * It is not guild wars unless it pisses somebody off Rogueonion 19:07, 12 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Basically, your entire argument is now coming across as "boo-hoo, I is mighty war with big muscles and... bigger muscles, too!... but I no fight 'cause bad mesmerz be hurtin'..." and you've now lost most of your support for your cause.


 * I have run my para (which is just as affected by the mesmer changes adrenaline- and attack-wise) and run into the problems you seem to be having. The big difference? I'm not bitching about it... I'm adapting my builds. Divert Hexes works nicely for mass hex denial, and adding a mesmer hero w/ Revealed Hex/Inspired Hex works, too (I have tested them out, and they work).


 * It doesn't change the fact that hex removal (as a whole) needs some help. Either that, or HM mesmer mobs need to be reworked w/ lower FC attributes (the former would probably be easier).


 * As for the "no mesmer" policy you have adopted... the story I got was, that was the whole reason the buffs happened in the first place. Please... for the sake of the children... please let mesmers in your party, or ANet will buff mesmers again. Ash Dragonshadow 21:52, 12 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Bigger muscles too!! hah. thanks for the laugh, but I have been trying different hex removal, people keep telling me to use tehcnobabble, but alas to get my asuran title high enough for that to even be useable would be more effort than i am willing to expend, I wish anet had a forum where people were not so rude, I feel as if I have been backed into a corner where people only have venomous things to say because in their upbringing their parents are the same way, where else would they have learned to be so spiteful? You are happy with the changes good for you, That does not mean it is perfect. it has to be fixed in some way, otherwise directly or indirectly they have nerfed melee classes in general, and I am really tired of running 2 of my heros just to manage over hexing, And no, I refuse mesmers into my groups and have since the update, I will not support the attitude that I keep seeing in Mesmers since the update, I do not approve of people being rude and Is refuse to put up with it.

Besides, I keep getting drafted as the "monk" who is forced to remove that crap off of people, AND THAT IS NOT FUN. Rogueonion 00:24, 13 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The rudeness is just the internet in general. Since there's no one to smack them around with a crowbar if they're rude, people tend to be nasty and spiteful on forums and such. I'm even guilty of it on occasion (I promise to hit myself for it later, though), but I try to keep it light and humorous so my comments will stand out a little more.
 * I'm not 100% sold on the changes; since they're here, though, and not very likely to go away, I figure it's much less stressful to just roll with and hope the next update evens the playing field a bit more. Hopefully for you, they buff monks a little more to even out the buffs to hexes in general (I deleted my monk because healing bores me to tears).
 * Finally... I support kicking people for having a "pro" attitude (read: too good for your group, and overly vocal about it). I don't support kicking people just because they happen to run a particular profession. If they're good, and keep their mouths shut, give them a chance. (That sounds like a PSA... sorry). Ash Dragonshadow 02:29, 13 June 2010 (UTC)