ArenaNet talk:Developer updates/Archive May-June 2007

Lack of updates?
For a while there, we were getting updates pretty often. It has been three weeks and haven't seen anything new. Not complaining, I just miss our insight into the future of GW. — RabiesTurtle 14:55, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm waiting for info on eotn guild halls. ^_^ - B e X  15:05, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


 * But shouldn't we instead construe the lack of news as being good news ?
 * (warning - entering speculative mode, continue believing at your own risk) Perhaps they are simply too busy to share thoughts ... which might mean we could be due for another large update anytime soon.
 * Alternatively, and this has been bothering me for a while, it's early June now (start of Q2) ... I can't help but wonder about preview events for GW:EN ... Clan Yumemiru 15:06, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll hope for Preview events too. ^_^ DBZVelena  |  (Talk page)  [[image:User_DBZVelena_sig.jpg]] 15:08, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


 * You are correct -- we have been a little quiet on updates for a couple of weeks. But when you consider the size of that May 24th update, and then consider the timespan before it, I'm sure you'll see that while we do sometimes make modest updates on a weekly basis, we prefer to gather most of the game changes into larger updates, when possible.


 * The team has been working on a good number of updates. Here are a few of them:
 * Skill balances:
 * Skill balances include a number of changes to various skills -- perhaps at least one to each profession -- to smooth disparity in power, strength, versatility, usefulness, etc.
 * Skill balances include examination of the Mesmer in PvE, to make the profession a bit more fun and popular to play. The designers feel this can be accomplished with a few tweaks to certain skills. Forum threads with ideas have been greatly appreciated.
 * Skill balances also include changes to Soul Reaping. Player suggestions on this matter also have been carefully reviewed and in some cases will be implemented. That's not to say those are the only changes that will be made, of course, but one or two will be part of the small number of changes being made.
 * PvE-only skills: The Sunspear skills--one per profession--are coming in the next update.


 * There is more to come, but that's a appetizer of some of what's on deck for mid-June. As for preview events for GW:EN, or more specific info about features or elements of the expansion pack, well, this weekend's Dungeon Preview is proof that we have a lot more to share, and you can be sure we'll be doing that over the coming weeks! --Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 18:41, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Gaile, first of all, thank you VERY much for the insight and the article link. Although I realize this isn't the most appropriate place to ask (editors, feel free to burn me to a cinder for this one :) ) but - I hope/trust/PRAY GW:EN dungeons are mappable like normal explorable areas ? Clan Yumemiru 19:07, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Awesome to have you respond to the comment Gaile, I feel so special *sniff*. I don't have an issue in waiting between updates, but I definitely enjoy knowing what to expect in the future.  Your response right here was exactly what I was looking for.  Thanks again for checking out the talk page — RabiesTurtle 01:00, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

When is the "next" update? =D Biz 19:30, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


 * In about two weeks, based on the most recent ETA for the new Sunspear skills. -- Gordon Ecker 02:17, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The update will be in mid-June, as promised. I think it's entirely likely it will take place next week. Thanks for your patience. --Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 17:43, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I hope something juicy comes with it =) [[Image:Tomoko's Cookie.jpg|19px]] Tomoko 08:48, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Two, count 'em, two meaty dev updates posted today. --Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 18:27, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Fire the devs imo &mdash; Skuld 18:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Joke? Or you don't like the updates? --Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 18:30, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Hexes are ruining PvP, yet you buff hexes? Its almost beyond belief. &mdash; Skuld 18:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Skuld - you seem a bit biased on this. Hexes are meant to be difficult to put on others, but also are meant to be difficult to remove and give a good bonuses. Hex removal should be one thing teams bring with them. I understand that you might not like hexes, but to say that it's ruining PvP seems like you'd need to run a poll first. Alaris 19:19, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeh, shut up. &mdash; Skuld 19:23, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Skuld, please don't be rude. --Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 19:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry. I'm sick of clueless people talking about hexes. &mdash; Skuld 19:44, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry you feel that way Skuld. I really am. But you have no clue what I know about hexes. Alaris 14:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Honestly, can the devs in charge of skill balance just read this thread? Then maybe Skuld wouldn't have to point out the faults of hexes, as most would be fixed. Ubs 18:28, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * A bit late to confirm this, and we've stated it several times in the forums, but you can be assured that more than one member of the design team has read the thread in question. --Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 02:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd like to respond to the larger issue of the original comments, which referred to a lack of updates. As you will no doubt have noticed, we're very much in "disclosure mode" now about Guild Wars: Eye of the North, and we've given a lot of recent interviews, previews, and other information, including the following:
 * IGN's A Conversation with ArenaNet
 * Gamespy's GW:EN Preview
 * Games Radar's Extensive Preview of GW:EN (seven pages of goodness!)
 * Game Daily's GW:EN Interview
 * And in addition, I think Guild Wars fans might find the following article of interest, too, since Guild Wars players formed the inspiration for the feature, and several players were interviewed for:
 * Associated Press's Article on Father/Son Gaming
 * We've had a very high level of media interest in GW:EN, and coverage in many languages, too numerous to list here. Look for even more in the future, and count on important news about the game coming your way very soon! I mean very soon. ;) --Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 02:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Ride the lightning
o.O I will never be able to capture this elite *sob*. It was hard fo me before.. (never managed, actually) Now it will be more impossible :P - anja    (contribs)  18:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * If you can't get it, you don't deserve it :-/ &mdash; Skuld 18:40, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry for being "not-as-great-as-mr-Skuld" .. - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]]  (contribs)  18:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Should be no problem to capture this if you have some interrupt with you. If you want I'll accompany you and you'll have it in about 20 Minutes. - MSorglos (talk|contrib) 18:44, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You'll get over it, i'm sure. &mdash; Skuld 18:45, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It was meant more as a joke, but Skuld's attitude just put me off. Sorry, just ignore me. - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]]  (contribs)  18:48, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 3000 balth faction + elite ele tome ;) -- Lemming64 19:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I've yet to cap this one, but from capping many skills, I can offer some advise. Rangers bringing interrupts and broad head arrow (daze) is actually pretty nifty against any type of caster. There are other combos that can interrupt very well, but it depends on your team composition. Also, energy denial or punishments from mesmers can bring a caster down pretty quick. Finally, if you're using henchs and heroes, use your flags to spread your team, so you get much less punishment from AoE effects. I hope that this helps. Alaris 19:26, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Eh? I just capped this last night with heroes and henchies and no flags :P The location of the boss is quite heavily populated, with an Oni popup nearby too. Just watch the aggro and the patrols. -- ab.er. rant  [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 14:47, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Olias ftw! --Karlos 14:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh and I just read the update. Now I understand what you mean Anja! Phew! It was a really good idea I decided to do some capping last night :D -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 15:29, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict)It's the oni and patrols that's making this really hard to cope with, together with being a factions ele boss... But I will sure make another try, and see if your kind advice help my noobishness ;) And I should hurry before the update goes live. :P - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]]  (contribs)  15:30, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * After you go around and fight the waves of Shiro'ken on the outer rim, you'll see the dragon boss with a bunch of other dragons. Flag your heroes where the last group of Shiroken was. Then slowly pull the groups, one at a time to your heroes. The key is not to GO to a group to fight it, but to pull the group back to you. This way, no othe group will surprise you while you're fighting. There will be 2 groups of Carps, 1 group of Kraken and an Oni spawn to the left. Once you've cleared these, then you can engage the dragons, knowing fully well that you'll die. :P Focus fire and make sure to go down swinging. Or, bring Olias as a Jagged Bones MM and drink a glass of water. Call me in the morning. :P --Karlos 15:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Armour and Spirit Queries

 * "We added a cap of +25 to the armor buff when stacking skills." - does this mean, Armor of Earth and Kinetic Armor do not stack anymore?
 * "You now gain full Energy when a Spirit you control dies." - control = you have to create the spirit by yourself or a party member has to create it? poke | talk 18:51, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * They don't stack.
 * You must activate the skill. &mdash; Skuld 18:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

If I have "Watch Yourself!" and Conviction stacked I will get only +25 armor, but what if I then add Kinetic Armor? Will the much greater unstacked armor buff from Kinetic Armor be my armor, or because I already met the cap will I only have +25 armor. Thanks! --Ravious 19:04, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Largest one counts, you will only recieve armour from kinetic &mdash; Skuld 19:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

The best way to kill Str tanks in PvE =/, GW2 better have separate skill sets for pvp and pve or Ill cry from despair when PvP effects PvE negatively time and time again =( Biz 20:06, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * So let's make an example with random numbers: Dolyak Signet +32 AL, Watch Yourself +20, Stand Your Ground +24 = 32+25, 57 instead of 76. So it is now better to have a strong buff and a weak on instead of several weak ones. Do people still follow? If you have a +80 AL buff like Feigned neutrality, Stand Your Ground still adds +24 AL. But if you also add Watch Yourself, you only get +1 more armor (+25 max). - Did I understand that right? --Longasc 20:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Its not hard. You have your Base AL + a SINGLE BUFF. or multiple, if they dont reach 25. Its rediculous. 74.225.16.235 20:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * From the examples, you would get +32 from Dolyak Sig and nothing from the other buffs, and +80 from Feigned Neutrality. --Valshia 21:00, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you are right. I re-read what Gaile wrote "A single skill can still bring the bonus over +25, but multiple skills with smaller bonuses will not do so." - and you know what, this gives and even worse result than my false interpretation. This eleminates armor stacking, it totally destroys it. And quite a lot of combos and builds. WHY? When someone mentions Paragons spamming "Watch Yourself" and "Stand Your Ground" or Eles stacking enchantments, I do not think this is nerfworthy. Enchantments can be killed and countered, and if this should again be related to Paragon shouts, I really say remove the whole class but leave the rest of the game alone. :( --Longasc 21:08, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Lame. :( - B e X  03:56, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * possibly only one shout buff? As it is now, what you did was TERRIBLE. 74.225.16.235 21:14, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Lol, "Watch Yourself!" + "Stand Your Ground!" was a 50% unstrippable party-wide armour buff, thats baaaad. &mdash; Skuld 07:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Nerfing 2 skills > Limiting Armour Bonus. Biz 07:24, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * They both been nerfed 3 times each (iirc), and its still a problem. Any further and it will still only be used by paraway and stuff, and not get any normal use at all. &mdash; Skuld 11:41, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * it's good if your team happens to consist of 8 ritualists on the other hand. +.+ 88.109.93.216 10:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm willing to bet anything that you'll get over it - FireFox  07:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * See, but a person could never win that bet, because they'd have to still be complaining about it forever. It would never end! - B e X  08:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Nice changes really. Good to see ANet did something daring big to address high armor stacking instead of several small nerfs. Now let me head over to GWguru to see farmers whine about PvP balancing ruining the game =) --Xeeron 15:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Is this PvP only or PvE included? I just put together a 200+AL Underworld hydra farmer with over 700 hp.  >.<  -Elviondale 22:58, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Jade Isle inquiries
Just figured since it's likely that the "Two Dev Updates" thread on GWO will get swamped with other issues as well, I'd leave you a reminder here instead in regards to this post, as to whether any changes to Jade Isle are in the works. Thanks for looking into it, I'm anxiously awaiting any further info, given that the most recent PvP seasons have pinpointed it as one of the paramount problems compounding everything else in the metagame. (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 14:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Please do not use this page for reminders, or for repeated questions, comments, or requests already placed and responded to via a forum. The response I gave is the only response I will be able to provide at this time. Thank you for understanding. --Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 15:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Moved to Update Discussion Page, so that others can contribute to this, if they desire. --Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 17:57, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Seems odd that you said you could ask about it, then said that the response already given was the only one you could give. Isn't that a tad bit of a contradiction? [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 23:31, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Trade Channel
I have a concern with the trade channel being used more often, is it possible that the text be changed to a more easily visible text? the light purple-pink color is very hard to see and distinguish, i think. And as much as I love the trade window, people stopped using it as much shortly after its creation... Does anyone think that this would be a good idea? -Kumdori.
 * Sounds like a suggestion. This sort of thing would be better off on a forum. Or at least on some other talk page rather than Gaile's talk page . -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 14:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Ack, mistakenly thoough I was on Gaile's talk page. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 15:28, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The idea of varying the text of the name and the message in Trade Chat was passed along a couple of weeks ago. I'm sure that the programmer who is working most frequently with the interface coding will give all your suggestions careful consideration, as he is able to do so. --Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 02:18, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

About popularity
Gaile tourments are not popular because the competition is just too high. In every tournment there's some top100 gould that play 8 hours a day. Normal ppl (and i still hope that's the most of us players) cannot keep the peace. It would be better to make rank based tournments, so anyone could win sometimes (that's just a basic idea that you could expand). Moreover, in current at the maps are known in advance, so a guild that can play 4 builds (read: have 4 times my free time) just win, applying the best build to a map. I did a post on guru some time ago about that. And btw permitting guests is just the return of ganking, 4000th guild with 4 ew ftw... --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:213.140.6.120.
 * While readding guests does make it possible to smurf again (though pointless, tbh - why bother, when the ladder rating doesn't really matter in the ATs?), it really has a much larger benefit on lower-end GvG guilds - any high-end guild with enough time to practice will have very little difficulty fielding a team. The low to mid level teams are the ones that will benefit from that change, and it should help increase participation in the ATs quite a bit. This is one change that I'm actually happy about (a somewhat rare thing). MisterPepe talk 07:34, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed with MisterPepe, allowing guests is the best out of the changes. --Xeeron 08:55, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Could I get your thoughts on the most recent changes to the ATS? We just published the rules and changes for the July season, and I'd very much like to know how you feel about those changes, and about the system as a whole, in the current timeframe. Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts! --Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 04:47, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

My sympathy/Paragon nerf
You have my sympathy for having to read through hundreds of pages of angry posts about the armor nerf right now. I think I know why ANet did it and I feel that GW is better of with the nerf than without it. However it would be still better of by doing something completely different: All these posters are not only complaining because their personal favorite build has been killed. The armor nerf almost eradicates a complete PvE tactic, that of tanking. So I understand where all the complaints are comming from.

Something to consider while reading all those posts

I cant help the feeling that the armor nerf hits the wrong target: You want to get at teams abusing chants and shouts in PvP, but you actually hurt tanks in PvE. At the root of all this problems is something else: The paragon class. I love the classes in guild wars for being distinct and unique, with this one exception. Paragons so far have always been either to strong in PvP or to weak in PvE or, even worse, both at the same time. What is really needed is an update that buffs paragons in PvE and nerfs them in PvP. There might be many ways to do that, but there is one very simple one: Lower their armor to 60, like casters! Since they behave like backline characters in PvE, it will not hurt a lot there, but against more intelligent PvP players, it would make a whole lot of a difference. By lowering their armor, you can give them back some of the usability of shouts and chants without unbalancing them.

To me it does not make sense that what is basically a backline buffer has the armor of a frontline character. Changing that would help balancing PvP, without making all of the PvE crowd hate you. --Xeeron 17:04, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * As Gaile has said multiple times, this page (edit for clarification: User talk:Gaile Gray) is not suitable for discussion on in game updates/bugs/whines/etc. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 17:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Gem. I have moved this to the Dev Update discussion page. I feel it may have an even better placement elsewhere, but assuredly it will be read and commented upon more broadly here than on my talk page. :) --Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 17:55, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * My apologies. I kind of tend to regard all pages with "Gaile" in it as the same. --Xeeron 18:31, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No problem at all, and my apologies if the move seemed abrupt. I don't know of any gentle way of porting to another page. :) --Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 19:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Just use the move tag as I've now done so that people find their way to the new place. :) There's nothing bad in moving discussions to a more suitable talk page. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 19:07, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Xeeron, I sympathize with all you say (I really do as I love my Paragon) but for your solution suggestion. I've heard this arguement before and I don't see how this will solve the PvE vs PvP under/overbalance issues the Paragon faces. --  Vallen Frostweaver  19:33, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Paragons in general are a weak class. They deal very little damage, and most of their party buffs, are worthless. In PvE, they are never requested. In PvP, more specifically GvG, they are used as "Batteries" using high energy skills from their secondary profession, merely because they are able to fuel their own energy via GftE. The only use Paragons have currently, is to spam expel hexes, occasionally aid in spikes, and remove enchants via MoD. They do NOTHING in PvE. Now onto the topic of the recent armor stack nerf. Now, not only has farming become more difficult, and infinitely less enjoyable, but DoA is now 5-6 times harder then it already was. Even with an obsid Tank, at perhaps 140 AR (Maybe more), and Stoneflesh Aura, and fully Bonded, still takes hundred of damage per 30 seconds. Now, DoA will be filled with Shadow Form nukers, rather then a balanced team which allows more players who do not have strictly an Ele, to play in the Elite missions. Sanctum Cay is harder to run, FoW and UW is harder to farm, and even the simple purpose of a tank has been defeated. Now onto loot-scaling...it really is not helping. Now it only takes bot-farmer 1 day to fill their storage rather then half a day :O. They continue getting gold no matter what. Thus, it is in my opinion, that loot-scaling has hurt the public, more then the bot-farmers you were aiming for. Hard-mode is no excuse. It is far to difficult for the average player. Unless you have vent, with a complete guild team, playing the exact roles everyone is to play, it just is not possible to complete the mission. Just a few things to think about. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:24.10.242.177 . or Readem. :)


 * I bow before the great truths you speak! -Elviondale 23:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The mechanics of this game pve is: there is no hard. A mission can't be hard, your pg is limited, when monsters heals more than x and do more than y damage, you can't make. You have to play lame, using obs tanks for example, or exploiting bugs to kill mallyx. That's not hard, that's boring and useless, beacause the best thing you get is not a better sword to kill more powerful monsters easier, but the same sword you can get at half game by a collector with a nice skin. wow, i left pve long ago and i can't wait age of conan and sowrd of the new world to get some half decent pve, with some challenge and some reward. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:213.140.6.120.
 * Age of Conan? probably. Sword of the New World? I think you better go read the beta reviews before even suggesting that it'll have superior PvE. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 07:30, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Just to asure you that I am not a paragon hater: I have one myself and I played him a lot. However he is not a good addition to any party in PvE now, since all skills got hugely nerfed (due to PvP). In PvP however, having low armor is much more a liability than in PvE, because humans are much better at exploiting that weakness. Meaning the skills (for both PvE and PvP) can be buffed (or at least stopped being nerfed) because in PvP, the lower armor would reduce Paragons value a lot, while in PvE they would rather gain, since there they can stay back and cast their buffs without being attacked. --Xeeron 20:06, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Now that Mesmers have 7 more Chant counters, I'm hopeing that Izzy and the rest of the balance team will feel that they can safely buff Paragons in PvE without throwing off PvP balance. Of course, if the Paragon Sunspear skill is powerful enough, they won't need a PvE buff. -- Gordon Ecker 01:35, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * reads the description of "There's Nothing to Fear!"* They won't need a PvE buff :D. -- Gordon Ecker 23:05, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict)Ignoring the mention of the user above who seems to be PvP biased, I'll respond to you Xeeron. The problem with moving the Paragon to the back row (due to a reduced AL) then makes any of their shouts/chants only effect 1/2 the party then as they won't be in earshot of the front line causing loss of energy gain as well.  This could potentially destroy the idea behind a support character that was and is intended for the midline. --[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  23:20, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Paragon shouts have earshot range. If the front line is not withhin earshot, they are seriously overextended, something which should rarely happen in PvP. Add in that a Paragon attacking must be withhin about half earshot to attack with spears (so they still need to be in front of the monks) and it should happen only in the most extraordinary cases that they do not cover the whole party with their shouts. --Xeeron 08:54, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I am awarwe of these mechanics and that's exactly my point. By dropping the AL to 60 and suggesting they go to the back row (as you said above) the spear doesn't function as it should (can't always reach forcing them to move back into the middle again), the frontline may not be effected by shouts/chants if they are in the back (in PvE it's common to let the front liners get aggro first and stop movement to the back row but too far out front and they are overextended as you say), and if you are in the middle with 60 AL you become a squishy target for any mob moving in and not a second line of defense as you shuold be as mobs in PvE do prioritize by AL level and health.  I still disagree that reducing the Paragon AL to 60 is a good idea.  Even if you add in a shield AL bonus it's practically the same as a Ranger's armor level and you can see how popular shortbows have been (as that is the same range as a spear)... they aren't.  As an example, the Ranger then gets attacked and taken down if in the middle line.  This is why you see them either stay in the back and fire or totally buff up with stances before going into any thumper/frontline like roles.  It's that +AL against elements that really saves them then as the stances won't protect against magic but that +30 vs elements will. Not to mention that a Ranger can carry a shield too.  So I conclude that by reducing the AL to 60 will force the Paragon to be close to or the equivalent of a shortbow using ranger with no +AL vs elements.  Therefore, weaker and not a good profession in eitehr PvE or PvP.--[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  11:56, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You got a fair point about spear range, but that is different from the frontline overextending. It is likely that together with dropping the armor rating, the spear range would need to be buffed. I am aware those are deep changes, but so is the current armor stacking nerf. And despite half a year of continous Paragon changes, the basic paragon problem of being too strong in PvP and too weak in PvE has not being solved yet. Now a whole class of PvE tactics has been abolished simply to get rid of strong PvP paragons. I feel my changes would work better and reduce the problem to changing paragons only, not many other classes as well. --Xeeron 13:04, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Is it just me or is this making the game more like Nascar? We know that the different professions technically are different, but all these balances and comparisons to other professions are blurring the lines and distinctions of each class. I mean.. I don't want to sound ungrateful, but so what if a mesmer movement speed hex is less effective than a water ele? If you want to slow people down, become a water ele! -Elviondale 23:09, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Is it possible to have separate set of rules for PvP and PvE, when it comes to armor stacking ? Biz 12:51, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

(Reset Indent) Generally it is not possible to respond to individual comments in depth, but because I've seen the threads, and feel it would be helpful to provide a semi-formal response to a suggestion that has been shared by several players, I asked Isaiah, our skill balancer, for a comment. Here is what he had to say in response to the initial commentary (suggesting reduction of Paragon armor) in this thread:

We understand we have hit the way tanks work in PvE, but in our tests, we were still able to farm effectively using these builds. Because of the way our armor system works, you get diminishing returns from armor bonuses, as such the difference between 140 armor and 120 armor is far less than 20 to 40 and most of these builds use damage reducing effects which greatly reduce the damage you take even with +68 armor. While I like your suggestion, those were not our only goals. We did want to hit the way other armor stacking worked in the game and we feel large amounts of passive defense is bad for the game. We would like to push things in a more aggressive manner. We will continue to test and monitor these changes and see their overall effect and we encourage you to post your feedback on them on the fansite forums, which we are reading daily. --Gaile 21:28, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks a lot for taking the effort to report back here Gaile, you can not imagine what a difference that simple feeling of "I am not posting my ideas for nothing" makes. --Xeeron 21:49, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. I wasn't expecting any intervention in our discussion but it is very appreciated.  The only question I have is if you guys are trying to get away from passive defense skills why then are there so many (especially for the Paragon)? --[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  22:58, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe something made them change their mind (like seeing defensive metagame for a long time). Remember that the paragon skills must have been on the drawboard at least a year ago, so it is not really recent that they came up with them. --Xeeron 09:27, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * What about giving paragons 100% armor penetration? I mean.. if I got hit by a spear, I'm pretty sure that it would go through any 80AL armor I had laying around at the time.  Add to it some extra lightning-dmg-based buffs that increase AP as well as a sundering head and you've got yourself a nice little tank buster.  Being AP, it also scales back when facing squishies.  But seriously, what do you think would suck more: getting shot with an arrow or a spear?  Boromir would have gone down in one hit of that Uruk was hucking spears 50 feet away.  Then why is a spear 14-27 vs a bow's 15-28?  Oh well.  (Dagnabbit I forgot my sig) -Elviondale 17:29, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, a spear is more impressive, but the small arrow has two advantages: (1) it flies way faster, and (2) it is smaller hence has more penetration than a spear which will have less penetration but more blunt-like impact. Just a comment, and in no way meant to influence the issue of balance. Alaris 18:19, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You do realize that a spear has more mass, thus a bigger momentum (p = m*v, momentum = mass * speed), which 'negates' the difference between the greater speed of an arrow? -- [[Image:User Corrran sig.png|CoRrRan]] (CoRrRan / talk) 10:24, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * But a bow acts like a spring, allowing energy to be stored and converted into momentum. The projectile's head is also a factor, it's easier to justify armor penetration on a javelin or target arrow, and it's easier to justify high damage on a broadhead arrow or a more traditional spear. I'm not sure how spears and arrows with similar heads would stack up to eachother as far as damage goes, but I think it's realistic that bows have better range and spears have a better rate of fire. -- Gordon Ecker 11:06, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I always found it funny that my character gets his spears out of nowhere. (Actually, also rangers getting their arrows from thin air is similary funny.) "Rate of fire" for a bow (although limited) makes sense, but the rate of fire for a spear is the duration it takes for the spearman to walk to his thrown spear and throw it again. :) However, regarding the bow being a spring: the bow transfers the energy from elongation of material into speed of mass. So I guess we're both talking about the same thing. It's not like a bow adds anything extra to it. (At least that's how I read your comment, as if you're saying that there is another factor to be involved.) -- [[Image:User Corrran sig.png|CoRrRan]] (CoRrRan / talk) 11:16, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The damage can be calculated by using 3 factors: Mass * Speed / diagonal size. If the size of a speartip is bigger than an arrow tip, it is more likely that the arrow penetrates deeper and thus does more damage. --Xeeron 12:05, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Deeper penetration != more damage. -- [[Image:User Corrran sig.png|CoRrRan]] (CoRrRan / talk) 12:24, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Depends on what you hit. For head any any part with vital organs beneath, I'd say yes. --Xeeron 14:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The RoF is pretty slow for a spear, but someone wearing some kind of javelin-quiver or someone standing on a parapet next to a huge pile of spears can just grab and throw. IRL large throwing weapons were generally used to strike from a distance at the start of battle closing to melee range (at least by the Roman legions). According to Wikipedia's arrow article, the narrow-headed bodkin point arrows are designed to be used against armored targets, and broadhead arrows are designed to be used against unarmored targets. -- Gordon Ecker 22:43, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Advertise Sunspear skills
While playing during the last 2 days, I noticed that only a very few proportion of players have realised that sunspear skills exist (while playing with several PUGs, only 2 people had sunspear skills in their build and almost all of those without did not know they exist). Since they are without doubt very helpful skills, it would be nice to advertise them better. That can be most efficiently done via an ingame message (like those for special weekends), but we can also think about having temporary "news" links on the main page. --Xeeron 17:26, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I like the idea of a little news header on the front page. It sounds great and shows that this site is ever changing and not just the same front page every time. --[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  18:00, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I have a few friends that neither read update notes nor any wikis. Last night I found myself explaining insignia to one. And before that I was telling someone about the Sunspear/Allegiance skills. Maybe the login screen should have a window for the update notes? - B e X  02:14, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Might want to wait until they stop balancing the pve skills, or else there would be more people knowing how good something has been and how bad it became. Either way, if its something worth using people will use it regardless of how and when it is presented. Biz 05:25, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi, there. Whenever we do a live build (except for minor bug fixes) we publish update notes on the website. We have a "New" flag (with a sparkle effect) on the main page whenever update notes are posted, which effectively serves as the "news header" mentioned here, I think. The "New" flag remains in place for a day or two. So anyone visiting the site, or wondering if we have new update commentary can tell by checking out the nav bar on the right-hand side of the main site. If there is a "new" flag, then he or she can follow that live link to get to the update notes.
 * Now, putting the updates into the small news space on the log-in screen isn't possible. Nor is it possible to include those in an actual in-game message after you log in. However, I can ask the programmers if we could add a small "There has been a game update in the last XX period of time, please see this page for details" sort of message. To be honest, as quickly as threads and analyses appeared on the various fan forums, I believe that the majority were using the "New" flag to get the latest info, but I do appreciate it would be great to inform even more.
 * Hope that's helpful, and let me know if you have other ideas. --Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 05:37, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * A note that there has been an update would be good for the little box in the log in screen (sometimes updates download so quickly you don't notice the progress box). I know a lot of people that never use the official website and have no idea about half the stuff that has been changed recently! - B e X  05:57, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, some sort of notice, not a complete list of updates, on the log in screen would be great. I've suggested this earlier, I believe, but sometimes good suggestions get lost to the sea of poor ones. :) -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 11:05, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * When I had mentioned a news header I wasn't meaning the whole update or anything. Perhaps a mention of the last update or any major changes recently - like "NEW - PvE skills added!  Read more here..." or something to that effect.  Gaile's idea of just the word "NEW" sounds good too but I honestly never knew that was what it was for (thought it was something new on the website and not the game) and I just went to the wiki game updates section whenever I see a new d/l or expected one.  Perhaps a couple more words than just "NEW"?  Like "NEW update click here!" or just "NEW update!" or something to that effect to let people know it's new to the game as well and not just this website only? --[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  11:52, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Most updates like skill balance changes don't need to be announced, but more important things like changes to how titles work or new skills added should be at least mentioned. I'm pretty informed, thanks to wikis, but I'm sure lots of people didn't notice the new PVE skills, which are a pretty nifty thing to announce.
 * My take is that any new feature should be announced: PVE skills, party search, skill hunter splits, etc. Just say it was added, no need for details except perhaps "Details will be posted on the wiki". Alaris 13:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "New Features" sounds good to me. It covers a lot but it still sounds like it may mean this web site only.  "New Game Features" perhaps? --[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  14:16, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * This information can also be sent in the news letter, as it already happens now from newsletters@plaync.com. But probably not everyone got his account through plaync, or coupled his account with plaync. In the last newsletter they presented hard mode, design weapon contest, sweep stake, etc. Jurrit 14:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Gaile, when you said: "putting the updates into the small news space on the log-in screen isn't possible", I assumed you meant putting all the update info. How about just bullets: "New PVE-only skills added. Targeting improved. See wiki for details."? Again, I'd leave skill balance out of it. Alaris 14:24, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I would agree but if there was a skill balance you could still add a bullet saying "skill balance" just the same. But yes, Gaile, please let us know what you think of Alaris's question above. --[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  14:28, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I would rather there be a link on the updates section which would either link to a panel (possibly the size of the accept the EULA panel), I do not see why we should keep it the size of the recent news panel on the login screen, it would be better to have either the panel idea or a link to the website or the wiki --Jamie [[Image:User Jamie.gif|(Talk Page)]] 14:32, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Whatever is on the new panel on the login screen could be kept one sentence long with a link to the GW homepage or the wiki page. In other news, the PvE skills are in the "updates, news, events" panel of Main Page/editcopy now. --Xeeron 14:38, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Jamie - nice idea, but would require more work. Xeeron - the idea is to inform players when they log in the game, rather than have them look for news on websites everyday. Link to wiki would be good though. Alaris 14:46, 20 June 2007 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) Sure it could be shown in the form of a link to the wiki home page, but firstly, you're expecting several people to know exactly where to look on the homepage, the homepage is also a link to many places it is not specifically designed with advertising new game features on the wiki. In many many games new patch or game updates are available in the actual game client, three other online games I have played (MapleStory, WoW & Conquer) all have this feature. We could send everything to a web browser if we wanted to but some users I know play GW on bare minimum specs, and the recent web links to the wiki have hurt the performance of their game, but it would be nice to have this information built into the client in the form of a panel, surely that wouldn't hurt?


 * Sure it would take more work Alaris, but in the end it would be a better solution --Jamie [[Image:User Jamie.gif|(Talk Page)]] 14:55, 20 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps a small line of text stretching underneath the login and Announcement boxes, only showing up to advertise new features like Hard Mode and new Sunspear skills. "Get your new sunspear skills from the Hero Skills trainer in Kamadan!"
 * Hmm, It's just occured to me that this would only apply to people who have Nightfall/Factions, which makes this a bit trickier. Eerie Moss 15:16, 20 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Since Guild Wars now interfaces with the wiki (F10), why not have some bouncing button or something, and when clicked, it loads up the text in that mini window. That way, they wouldn't have to open a browser, leave the game, or have the entire login screen cluttered with stuff. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Elviondale.
 * That's less effective than putting it on the login screen. You're assuming that most players even know about the wiki integration. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 15:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd have to disagree, since its not a matter of someone pressing F10 to get to it, it be a simple bouncing "New Updates" button. I'd click on that long before I clicked the + next to Game Updates on the login screen and just getting a snippet and a link. Sorry about missing the sig last time -Elviondale 16:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Why not just keep it simple? The Main Page already has a link to the updates and news on their website. Why not highlight it more when there is something new? Just add a star or something next to it. And I wouldn't mind if the "Updates, news, and events" section was moved all the way to the left either. --  Vallen Frostweaver  18:55, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * We're talking more about informing people through the client. Someone changed the mainpage editcopy to make it more obvious. :) - B e X  02:11, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Vallen, yes, that's what we do now. If you look at the main page of www.guildwars.com, you'll find a nav folder to the right of center, below the revolving banner. The first item in that box is Game Updates, and right now, there is a pulsating "New" flag, so that anyone visiting the site--whether they're visiting by chance or because they've received a download and wonder what has been updated--will see that "NEW" and the star graphic behind it and be prompted, we hope, to click the live link and go to the Update Notes page.
 * At present, we're pretty happy with this notification system. Anyone who's in the game get's the "There is a new build" notice, and knows to check the Game Updates page. Anyone pulling a download later will also know that he/she can get the information about the update from the page. I will ask about adding some sort of in-game notification system, but I've not heard that being actively considered so cannot comment now about whether it's feasible or considered desirable by the designers. --Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 02:21, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * While they might know they can get updates from the website, they don't go to the website. Personally, if I was in the middle of doing something (even in a town) and I see the "new build" notice, I usually just quit, and restart the client right away, not even bothering to check the updates until I finished my session :P so yea, even a little notice in the client that just says "New PvE skills available!" would get me motivated to fire up Firefox :P -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 07:28, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Every other game has a starting spashscreen with news. Guildwars barely annouce useless triple dye weekends. I never understood why and i never understood why i must wait 20 minutes after the update to see the website updated. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:213.140.6.120.
 * Players are in guilds, guilds know what's going on. Whenever I was actively playing, I always knew about the latest changes, game wise and metagame wise. Being in a guild, you never go uninformed. If your guild actually differs from the standard, make a point and start being the source. ~ dragon legacy  08:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You went to the website to read about triple dye weekends? I personally thought the title itself was pretty self-explanatory. Also, maybe it's just my timezone, but everytime there's an update, and I visit the game updates page, all the update notes or news are already there. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 08:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * LoL Aberrant, such a 1337 h4x0r- going to a website and all. I, myself, do the same thing, but the problem is that like 80% of people never will.  I don't even bother with guildwars.com news, but instead check out guild wiki because they post additional, user-noticed changes.  Most of the time, those are more interesting.  On the other hand, if the nublets don't know about checking for updates, more than likely they won't encounter them in game anyway.  The most that it will affect them is that a skill has a different mp cost or recharge time- but they won't even notice. -Elviondale 16:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem as I understand it is for players that don't spend that much time on websites checking for updates, and are either part of a Guild that is not that active or that don't check for that info, and as a result might miss out on some important features that are added. Again, no real need to discuss small balance changes, just new features. Alaris 17:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

<> That's great Gaile but I was referring to a star, etc. on this wiki and not the one that already exists on GW.com. Skip that idea though as I was only hoping to draw more attention to the latest updates on here and that can be done without a star. Currently the Right hand side "Game updates" link is not seen on a non-maximized screen (very annoying and I miss that from Guildwiki actually as I want news and updates to be first, not the game basics - that can be second) and it's not all that informative if new updates have been made without checking the "recent changes", "my watchlist", or clicking that link (only to find out there possibly weren't any). Perhaps a date of the latest game update next to it would tell people if anything new really was there? So it would read "Game updates" and be followed by "(Latest: June 22)" or something like that. --  Vallen Frostweaver  17:25, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The only thing I bother to do when I come on here is check my watchlist. If nothing is new, there's not purpose in viewing it.  So add the update pages and their associated talk pages to your watchlist and you don't have to worry about missing something if its not easily viewable. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Elviondale . 17:49, 26 June 2007
 * Yeah, try explaining that to the community that isn't knowledgeable about the wiki. I think most users probably have a favorites tab set to the home page and not the updates or their own watchlist.  Or, more importantly - My smarts /= Your smarts /= Other peoples smarts.  Same applies to preferences too I guess. --[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  19:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I just can't ever remember to post my sig.. -Elviondale 20:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that having a link to game updates with the date of the latest update to be quite useful. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 00:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)