Feedback talk:User/Raine Valen/Skill suggestions/Assassin/Dagger Mastery

Hmm, would a double strike count as two attacks or one? 98.248.90.248 23:00, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Two, but I'm really not fond of attack chains at all. I may abolish them altogether.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  23:31, 14 Aug 2010 (UTC)

Flashing Blades
That's extreme. -~=Ϛρѧякγ  (τѧιк)  23:43, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It'll be less crazy once I alter assassins so that they're not supposed to be attacking 24/7. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  23:54, 14 Aug 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did anyways with access to Blinding Surge on steroids. :P -~=Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png (τѧιк)  02:43, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, the change to bsurge was more of a nerf.
 * There are no nonelite air magic skills with cast times faster than 1s, so in order to successfully inflict Blind, an ele would have to use a skill with 1s or higher activation: this makes the blind much more vulnerable to disruption. On top of that, they're being forced to use a skill that they may/may not have wanted to use on a Warrior; throwing Lightning Strike or some such at a warrior is arguably a waste of time.  The alternative is using something like Enervating Charge, which they'd be using on wars, anyway; however, this begs the question: is it really worth putting a blind on top of that?  Finally, the ele in question would be spending more time and energy overall for the less of an effect (blind duration is decreased), which is a direct nerf.
 * The only situations where bsurge would shine would be in situations where eles are dealing AoE damage with casts, like with Chain Lightning or Arc Lightning. However, the reality is that those extra blinds would, in all likelyhood, land on characters that did not need to be blind.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  2:51, 20 Aug 2010 (UTC)
 * Uhh, i think he was talking about this elite as a bsurge on steroids, not bsurge itself >.> 98.248.90.248 03:05, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh.
 * Well, in that case, you have to consider that you're not really being an effective damage dealer if you're training physicals all game (except maybe paras), and that your blinds won't land if they're kiting. On top of that, you'd have to be in melee range of the other team's frontline all the time, which means that target swapping is going to suck for you.  And all for the low, low price of being vulnerable to much-more-prevalent melee hate (yeah have fun with Empathy).
 * tl;dr this skill sucks for shutting down melee and you're better off using it like what it is: unconditional bonus damage that makes you mostly immune to linebacking. This is a 1v1 skill to fill assassins' new 1v1 niche.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  3:15, 20 Aug 2010 (UTC)
 * Before you nerfed your suggestion, only the Empathy point was really valid. :P There's no need to blind a physical if they're kiting (if there was, Dash), it practically doubled auto-attack damage (then add an IAS and any attack skills), and assassins are the most mobile melee profession (Dash and shadow steps). Even though your suggestion only triggers on attack skills now, I'm not sure if I'd really want to see an assassin occasionally shadow stepping to casters with powered-up attack skills, reducing opposing front-line/ranger pressure in their downtime. -~=Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png (τѧιк)  01:23, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Even if it triggered on any attack, you'd still be killing your effectiveness as frontline in order to do something that an ele would be better at.
 * When you wanted to spike a squishy, you'd have to run or shadow step from your opponents' frontline to their midline; either one gives the spike away spectacularly. Eles, on the other hand, can blindspam like champs and then press t and hit any air magic skill on their bar to push kills.
 * The only time Flashing Blades would really shine would be in split situations (or RA, but lol RA), and that's exactly what it was designed for. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  1:37, 23 Aug 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, so now that you can sort of see the direction Dagger Mastery (and the Assassin profession as a whole) is going in, do you still think it would be a problem if Flashing Blades triggered on attacks? &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  21:31, 26 Aug 2010 (UTC)

New changes
I'm really lost :> 98.248.90.248 02:24, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't expect it to make sense until it's finished. :> &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  2:30, 23 Aug 2010 (UTC)
 * Recharges! That's what I wasn't getting from our discussion, when I thought Adrenaline-based "dual attacks" could be abused to hell. I now like where you're going with this. -- Oiseau | User_Oiseau_Melandru.jpg 18:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Right, the adrenaline req is mostly replacing the "lead/offhand/dual" mechanic (with some exceptions); generally, a combo would go in order of increasing adrenaline cost and not in such a rigid skill order. Because adrenaline is being used in that capacity, it can't really also function as spam mitigation (like it does with Warrior and Paragon skills), so the recharge is necessary, as well.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  0:00, 24 Aug 2010 (UTC)
 * So sins are now going to be balanced now? replaced by warriors? 22:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Run around for 5 seconds to use Death Blossom once every 8 20 seconds? Lol ok.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  23:17, 25 Aug 2010 (UTC)

INputz
I don't know what the idea is behind assassins using adrenaline, maybe it would be cool though. I just wanted to say that I prefer skill functions matching their name, so I think I like the current Death Blossom better, as blossoming implies spreading, kindof. Also are the adrenaline attacks like DB still dual attacks that require an offhand or what? Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә    ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 04:14, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Not unless they say they do (like Jungle Strike). You could, if you wanted to, autoattack 5 times and then throw a Death Blossom.  Why, in god's name, you'd want to do that, I have no idea.  But you can!  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  4:17, 26 Aug 2010 (UTC)
 * I see adrenaline as a rage/anger type of thing, which is the warrior niche mostly. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 3.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 04:19, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Ninjas are supposed to flip out and kill people; Assassin adrenaline obv is a measure of how flipped-out they are. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  4:20, 26 Aug 2010 (UTC)
 * Flip out, get a lead attack off and then build 7 adren (well 6, after the lead attack)? That's kind of missing the point. Granted, you did mention removing chains. Also, ninja's=/=assassins. Harrier C. Goodman talk 22:03, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Falling spider after a chain is just falling spider, since all your attacks are recharging and, thus, can't gain adrenaline. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  22:45, 31 Aug 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, GW assassins are commonly referred to as "ninjas" (for several reasons); it only seemed fitting. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  23:50, 4 Sep 2010 (UTC)

Golden Skull Strike
+ Horns of the Ox = DW covering Dazed. Yowza. -- Oiseau | 01:56, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Or alternatively, it = your elite attack does nothing. Skills that randomly proc promote fun and interesting gameplay. :D  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  4:13, 2 Sep 2010 (UTC)
 * "Lol at you we are teh champions of PvP this month becuz we gotted more procs than you!!1" Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 3.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 07:30, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * l2autocrit. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  7:42, 2 Sep 2010 (UTC)

A small question
I'm all for making assassins just that much more balanced, but the problem with them adrenaline building is that they just have alot less armor. One good punch to the face seems to be rather effective - how would this be combated. Hopefully not in the Arenanet "let's just not be able to hit" kind of way. Tried that, didn't work. (just for the record, I'm not assassin fan, they are fun to play in general PvE though...and no, not as Palm Strike or Moebius, we've all been there too often) Harrier C. Goodman talk 15:27, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Assassins can quickly build adrenaline because their attack skills generate much-higher-than-normal amounts of adrenaline: an assassin should never autoattack twelve times to build Blades of Steel.
 * Furthermore, they're not designed to be durable at all; they're supposed to kill stuff and gtfo, ideally in 1v1 scenarios. For more detail, look at what I wrote here.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  15:51, 17 Sep 2010 (UTC)
 * Having read that page, it makes complete sense. I'm guessing the main problem would be the major changes this would take on the game - including skills, playstyles (obviously) but would also include a re-written AI of NPC's as bosses and the oh-so-powerful Assassin heroes. Now I know this is from a PvP standing, but consider PvE in this. how would it be affected, if at all? All-skillsplits or a wholesale 100% overhaul? Harrier C. Goodman talk 17:38, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
 * PvE has bigger problems, so who cares? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 17:47, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I do Harrier C. Goodman talk 20:00, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
 * For PvE, remove the foe number limitations on traps (Augury on 3 mobs? Whatever.), decrease the recharges on dagger skills (because there are like 3 cases anywhere where taking out "key" mobs is important).  Alternatively, rework all of PvE so that it's not "steamroll mobs, talk to NPC, steamroll more mobs", but that's the hard fix.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  20:48, 19 Sep 2010 (UTC)

Hammers
Non-scaling adrenaline gain is asking for trouble. Morphy 12:54, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Secondary attributes should cap at 8, imo. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 16:45, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
 * most dagger attacks have like 20s recharge. Strength offers better options, so it won't be a problem.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  17:44, 26 Dec 2010 (UTC)
 * Flourish. Coming to think of it, these skills would promote abuse with unspecced Hammer Bash instead. Morphy 18:50, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, scratch that. While it's possible to knocklock people indefinitely with any Hammer elite + Falling Lotus Strike + Auspicious Blow (Auspicious Blow completely negates the net energy loss starting at 4 spec in Dagger Mastery) or power Hammer Bash constantly with the insane adrenaline gain, why not break the game even harder? HotO -> Trampling (or the other way round, depending on the situation} -> Falling Lotus Strike -> Blades of Steel -> Flourish is probably as bad or worse than the old BoA sin as you will now actually be able to use 3 duals instead of "just" 2. Morphy 08:00, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Why would you ever follow HotO with Trampling or Trampling with HotO? &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  14:55, 28 Dec 2010 (UTC)
 * Because it's an unconditional dual attack and because you're taking it to cover all possible situations anyway. Morphy 16:09, 28 December 2010 (UTC)