Feedback talk:Game updates/20101008

Should it be added that Kimmes The Historian now links you go your gw2 reward page? Waar Kijk Je Naar 17:30, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Confirmed... takes you to http://hom.guildwars2.com/#page=welcome link --  Pixy | Talk User_pixy_hand.png 17:38, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * My M.O.X. staue has disappeared from my " Fellowship" Monument o.O Bob soddoth 17:42, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * EDIT : Has allowed me to re add M.O.X. Bob soddoth 17:45, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Also they had 3 mini updates today; originally Kimm's link was "..." now it says about seeing your legacy. --Smithy-Star [[File:User Smithyben sig icon.png]] 17:46, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * this ends the speculation of title rewards/hom rewards for gw2... and thank heavens i worked on the gwamm title as i can wear it on all gw2 chars now! wicked! thx anet --  Pixy | Talk User_pixy_hand.png 17:52, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Ummm what? After reading though the HoM calculator page I found nothing about GWAMM there and it's impact on gw2. could you state your sources that it gets transferred into gw2? --A zreal o f S kyrim [[Image:User Azreal of skyrim signature.jpg]] 09:53, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * See the FAQ. --Adul 11:16, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow I wonder how I missed that, thanks --A zreal o f S kyrim [[Image:User Azreal of skyrim signature.jpg]] 12:35, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

How Long?
Once you display something in HoM, how long until it is updated on the online calculator? --Musha 18:30, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It updates when you log out. - Joe Kimmes [[Image:User Joe Kimmes Avatar.png|19px|Talk Page‎]] 18:50, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It also updates when you enter the character select screen, hence you don't have to log out. Batchie 14:55, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Rewards after 30
Are there physical rewards after 30 or is it just titles? My calculator just isn't showing anything after 30. --Musha 19:34, 8 October 2010 (UTC) |Source -- S irrush  19:53, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see why there shouldn't be. Probably just not finalized and/or wanting to keep it a secret for a while longer? We'll see. Never mind, "The first 30 points of rewards are items, and the team expects most people to consider themselves finished after the first 30 points, once the items run out. The final 20 points of rewards are all prestige. "We didn't want players to feel like we're asking them to do everything," explains Hargrove."
 * If you click on the little boxes it expands and you can see the titles that are available --Smithy-Star [[File:User Smithyben sig icon.png]] 20:11, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That makes perfect sense. Thanks for finding that Sirrush. --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19px]] 20:12, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * While I am a little disappointed that this system rewards people who focused on a single "main" character more than those who devoted time towards multiple characters, I'm glad that ANet made the final twenty points' reward as just titles. As long as I get access to all of the special in-game items, I'm not too fussed about missing out on a title. Thanks for all the hard work, ANet, and I look forward to seeing you all again in GW2. :) - Zaxares 03:06, 9 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't understand how it rewards single mains. The rewards can be earned on any character for the account. 71.146.73.91 03:34, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I am sorry that you spent hours and hours on multiple accounts and think you should get preferential treatment but I think they did that because MOST of us who play recreational and have a life elsewhere will not be working on 8 toons + to max, so thank you anet for doing something smart and making it account wide and blessing us with these wonderful toys in gw2, PS. fix the mesmer buff crap already its still very annoying. Rogueonion 04:07, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You're really still qqing about that? zzz. 98.248.90.248 04:37, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * @Rogueonion: The point, you have missed it. Zax is an old friend of mine and I know how he plays; he doesn't have a billion accounts, he's had one account for 5+ years, and all his characters have max rank.  He isn't asking for preferential treatment, and I don't see anyone asking for it.  Everyone seems pretty happy with the system, from what I've seen.  P.S. - If you still can't counter the Mesmer buff by now, it's not ANet's fault (lrn2daze/rupt/Mistrust).  Signed, someone who vanquished Joko's Domain in 90 minutes after the Mesmer update.  Elysea  [[Image:User_Elysea_ElyseaSignatureImage.jpg|19px]] 08:22, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the support, Elysea. :) And apology accepted, Rogueonion (from below). As Elysea said, I don't have multiple accounts. I have one account, and 5 PvE main characters. Each one is a Legendary Guardian, 3 of them are Legendary Cartographers, and all of them have 30 unlocked statues in their Fellowship monument. The fact that I did them multiple times doesn't in any way diminish the effort and work I put into them, but it DID take away time I could have otherwise spent working on other titles. That's what I was disappointed about; the fact that such efforts wasn't recognised by the HoM. However, I do understand that ANet was worried about people 'gaming the system', and that this was the best they could do to make it fair for everyone. I'm not ranting or demanding that it be changed. As I originally stated, the main thing I wanted was the in-game items, and I've got that. It would have been nice if achievements on multiple characters were recognised in some way, but the world isn't going to end if it weren't. - Zaxares 22:58, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Is it just me, or does the ultimate reward title Champion of the Gods sound pretty unimpressive? --Adul 10:50, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm quite disappointed that the points for each monument caps out. For instance...my Warrior has 76 mini on her. Having it cap out at 50 mini's for that Monument ruins any incentive I had to get more (something that I enjoyed collecting btw) and also wastes the 26 extra mini's I had. Whereas my other account I only have partial points for minis and I could have been putting them over there instead of on my Warrior. Also having the weapons maxed out...I'm way over...that's wasted money and time that I could have been pumping into more armors or stuff from my other account. (Usaf1a8xx 14:04, 9 October 2010 (UTC))
 * Well, really, I think 50 is enough to reward. :/ I have 39, and I have a pretty hearty collection.
 * I'd rather see the last 10 ranks be prestige-only, but I also understand that not everyone has played as much as me or should be expected to. (currently at 25/50) I wouldn't mind a GW2 minipet for reaching a 35/40/45/50 mark, though. Vael Victus  [[Image:User_Vael_Victus_Sig.jpg|18px|Pancakes.]] 15:33, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Well yeah, something like that would be nice. I understand that values beyond 30 are rather extreme, and therefore they should be less rewarding compared to lower levels, but it would be nice to have a few material rewards in the 30 to 50 range. Maybe one every 5 levels as Vael Victus suggested. Other than this, I'm very impressed by the amount of thought that went into this reward system. Good work, Anet employee whose identity is not (yet) revealed! --Adul 15:49, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh I apologize I was not targeting anyone specific and I did not mean to target your friend, I was posting that because as I sat in LA listening to the chatter about it, alot of people were whining about their multi accounts and how much work they did and how much MORE of a reward they deserved, I sit at 35/50 when they released the counter, and I am happy with it. and just becuase something can be countered does not mean it is perfect. The recast rate on some of the mesmer spells are retarded fast against physicals and they DO need to do something about it, and this comes from making the hated class. and ya know, having made one after the buffs, and played it I beat EVERYTHING in no time at all because mesmer steamrolls through EVERYTHING. As proof= I beat prophecies, factions nf AND eotn in under a week on mesmer. What is so funny about it is I just THREW a bunch of skills on bar and went to town. Rogueonion 16:10, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Hey Zax I totally appreciate your understanding, I really had not read exactly your post. But, I know like 3 people in one of my old guilds who have 3 accounts each and they were standing around whining about the lack of specialness they felt at the way it all happened no joke they worked 8 toons on three accounts to try and get something to better themselves blah blah. So once again sorry for the misunderstanding and thanks for understanding=) Rogueonion 02:53, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I have 4 accounts myself, but I was never under the illusion that the other 3 would gain any benefits because of the achievement on my main account (or the other way around). That simply wouldn't be logical. --Adul 06:36, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * these people that I am refering to thought the items weould be saleable and non customized so they spent days and weeks and well the last year online (HOURS) like they never freaking logged off. because they wanted to start with gold. I get a kick outta that. Rogueonion 08:07, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * well, just imo, but im not THAT much impressed with anet HoM rewards system.. i dont have multiple accounts, i have one and i mostly focused on my main char listening to the rumors people were saying about achievements, 'the more rare stuff you have, the more unique rewards will be in gw2' thus spending hours and hours on farming and buying most rare minis and stuff, finding out that it was just useless.. this probably doesnt have to do anything with this talk but i just had to say my opinion, soz..Equiliym 09:26, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * People should just stop moaning about their conceived "lack of reward", Guild Wars 2 may be a squeal/continuation of a series but it's a new game altogether. Anet don't have to give you anythging, however they've chosen to give something and it could have been a lot less.Dakota 10:45, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * it might not look like it, but i am satisfied with the rewards anet gave players, im just trying to say that they should have revealed some kind of hint or anything a little earlier so everyone didnt have to spend much time on getting rare stuff and hard titlesEquiliym 11:06, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't agree with the above comment. The whole "don't complain and be happy with what you've got, cause anet didn't have to give you anything", is wrong imho. The HoM was a retention gimmick and still is, (to accommodate the short life cycle of gw1) I personally don't see why they last 20 ranks should be for prestige only. You put the more useful stuff at the bottom and put the more shiney things at the top. That way utility is granted to the casual player which keeps them equally competitive, and better skins are granted to the more hard core players. I don't understand why it's considered a bad thing to reward players who have put more time and effort into the game. If you are a casual player you SHOULDN'T get the same things as someone who plays 8 hours a day. If you do a full time job and a colleague does the same part time, they shouldn't go home with the same wage as you either, it's the same logic here. So no personally I do have an issue with the current system. The system should accommodate both casual and hardcore players and at the moment it doesn't. Saying all that however, I do like the basis of the system and the rewards that have been made, I just think the choice for the last 20 was somewhat misguided but then that may just be me. -- Salome   [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 11:15, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Well that "more shiny" rewards for higher levels are supposed to be the titles themselves, although I can see why some players (myself included) are not entirely satisfied with that. It certainly wouldn't hurt if there were a few item/miniature/pet rewards at higher point levels. Too many of them would not be a good idea though - I believe one every 5 points is adequate. --Adul 12:02, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "I don't understand why it's considered a bad thing to reward players who have put more time and effort into the game"
 * time spent isn't something worth rewarding. Skill is, but there are very few ways to measure skill in GW1, so Arena Net didn't bother with that. Someone who plays the game 8 hours per day clicking 1-2-3 rythmically doesn't really deserve more of a reward than a very good PvP player who plays one hour per day, or we would then assume that bots are the better GW players around. It's more or less the same on real life - someone who works and takes one hour to do something well done is going to be considered more efficient than someone who works and takes eight hours to do that same thing equally well; skill is more important than time spent.
 * I'm very happy with the HoM reward system. One of the biggest rewards, the armor set, is given to basically anyone who has played GW1, which is as it should be. The most time consuming thing to get in GW1 are some titles, and the most time consuming reward to get from the HoM are titles; which is only fitting, and also as it should be. Erasculio  14:05, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Erasculio I could not have said it better myself, IMO, ANET did the right thing here, as most of you PVP hardcore people do not like to play PVE well... 80% of the rest of us do, so you are just QQ that you have to go back and learn to PVE this is what I am getting. PVE has more common rewards, and alas if you spent 8 hours a day for however long working your titles be they PVP or PVE this is YOUR problem not mine or ANETS. What I am gathering is that A BALANCED HALL is better than a "RARE HEAVY HALL". I made a Balanced hall and I got everything I wanted and I am happy with it, Quit QQ that your Rare heavy hall doesn't give you enough. go balance that crap out whilst you have time. Rogueonion 17:07, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * @Eras problem with your basis is that it in some way indicates that anything in the game is skill related. It really isn't. Most of pve can be done with certain cookie cutter builds and most of PvP has been running the same tired meta for months. Very little involves actual skill. The HoM calculator however does reward points for actual things, I'm not saying I agree or disagree with this point distribution but needless to say its there and in essence it says "anet thinks these thing should be rewarded in some way in gw2", thus people who have more of them, should be rewarded more than those who have less of them. It's not about time spent, its about the ability to gain these points and if you can gain the 50 points in 10 hours, rock on. If it takes you a 100, or a 1000, again rock on. However one should still gain some kind of recognition for each point gained, not just have the top 20 points be 4 titles, which all in all will be a let down to alot of the more dedicated players. So I must respectfully disagree with you. I agree time spent isn't something worth rewarding, however if something is worth assigning a point to in the calculator, its worth assigning a reward too as well.
 * @Onion I will be honest, not a bloody clue what you are on about matey. Couldn't really understand what you are talking about. If you put "salome rial" in the calculator, you will see my hall is well balanced and not full of "rares", whatever that means. -- Salome   [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 17:34, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * @Salome, I am carrying on a couple of discussions in general and trying to fit it all into a compact situation. sorry. I am just tired of everywhere I look people whining that they DESERVE more because they are better than everyone else, why do they need to be better? I feel that people are not happy because its so balanced. I for one have a tiny bit of my faith in gw2 being able to balance with this reward system. Just because you(not you but a loose you indicating anyone who doesn't like that everyone gets a chance to benefit because they ARE from the original game) do not agree that everyone should be rewarded equally does not make it so. sure you (once again a loose you) did all the elite stuff, and you (loosly applied) did all the rarest of stuff. BUT that still does not mean that some people should benefit over others. I think its great the way it is, and so what some people do not care about all those titles, so good give us the physical benefits first, who KNOWS what max titles in gw2 are going to be worth? I do not, you (once again a loose interpretation) do not. so why QQ and whine that it isn't good enough? It seems to me that all the "so called elite" players are the ones whining about the reward system because their egos are taking a hit with the obvious balance here (perhaps they are not the best at everything) I for one have looked up ALOT of the "so called" elite from here and elsewhere in game you know... the NOOB this and NOOB that and most of them do NOT have even close to my accomplishments look me up Rogue Onion 36/50. I am satisfied with it. Rogueonion 18:54, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * OH and Salome?? GZ on 46/50 Rogueonion 19:21, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * *cough 42 cough* Thanks for the gz though and gz on your 36. However I still disagree with you as you continue to use logical fallacies in your debate. You label all people who wish rewards over 30 as elitists and not wanting others to have those rewards. That's utter nonsense, it's not about getting stuff that others dont have, it's about being rewarded for the things you actually did. If everyone gets 50 points and gets all the rewards, I would be over the moon, but denying those who did get over 30 points just for those who got under 30 is idiotic. That flawed reasoning could be applied arbitrarily anywhere. Why should we get anything at all using that logic, what about all the people who have less than 30, is that okay then to ignore them? See how flawed the argument is. One should be awarded for what one does. If you have 50 points, you should get the awards for it, if you have 30 you should get the awards for that and if you have 10 you should get the wards for that. As I've already said, things with utility should be in the first 30 levels, as it keeps things competitive, however the top 20 points should be reserved for vanity items. That way the only people going for them are those who care about it. This is not elitism, it's giving people an option to do something or not. If they choose not to, then they dont get the reward and they dont get to cry about it, however as at stands those of us who choose to do these things get royally shafted. I'm all for being inclusive but this is the "entitlement mindset" at work again. "I didn't do what's needed to get to 50 but I WANT everything and therefore I should have everything without any further effort", and to accommodate those people, anet have effectively capped the rewards at 30, alienating those of us who dont mind putting in some effort to the game, which is a great big load of FAIL right there! -- Salome   [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 09:59, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Heh, Salome, I get you, However, Most of the people who care about that kind of thing only care for the "title" as below they want to show how special they are to get a title, I personally do not care about titles all that much and would have spent much of the last 2 years acting like a dragon and hoarding gold. Instead I was pushed into farming and grinding for title after title for some IMAGINED reward for GW2 which I STILL may or may not purchase, as I have only a tiny bit of faith in anet being able to balance such a HUGE project and the longer it takes them to release it (its been 3 years) the less faith I have in them being able to do so. So, while I agree with your above statement, I did not really EXPECT Anet to make EVERYONE happy. It does make me wonder, did anybody notice it(these so called skins) was all referred to as "LOW LEVEL GEAR" meaning, once you reach a certain point, its worthless unless (as the current statements stand) we pay cash money for "Tstones" and I think it is funny how they conveniently pushed our attention somewhere else while they dealt with whatever that is. Let us instead of arguing about things or feeling jilted shoot anet a message saying WTF? I think that the "hardcore" PVP base should have someone who genuinely only did PVP for 5 years ask for something special just for PVP players (of course THIS means that PVE players will feel not so special as ALL PVP players HAVE had the opportunity to play guild wars and make the same accomplishments as the rest of us, they made a CHOICE to NOT do so. That is not my fault or Anets for that matter. If they feel jilted, and want the same rewards they should go and grind out some shitty titles like everyone else. This does not mean that PVP titles should not count. I am just sick of all the "so called elite players" (you know the ones who stand around in a town and never play yet call everyone noobs?) sitting around STILL not playing and whining that they didn't get enough or that THEY personally deserve more for being elite. Rogueonion 14:59, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * PS. how do i reset my indent? and I should have coffee before I type heh. Rogueonion 15:00, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You can type before your paragraph. It will look like this:  --Adul 16:38, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Hope I did it right. Rogueonion 17:01, 11 October 2010 (UTC)


 * @Salome:
 * Classic = Skilless? &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  19:11, 22 Oct 2010 (UTC)
 * Classic = Skilless? &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  19:11, 22 Oct 2010 (UTC)


 * As far as the rewards scale goes, I'm pretty pleased with it. Every point past 30 gets exponentially more grindish, so I'm very content with tangible rewards stopping there.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  19:11, 22 Oct 2010 (UTC)

Mysticism flop precursor to derv update?
Who else here is getting that feeling, whether it be good or bad? --Sage  Talk  19:32, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You can always hope right? :\--Munkypoo7 20:51, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * They are possibly working in Dervish "balance" -- NeHoMaR [[Image:User_NeHoMaR_sig.jpg]] 00:05, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * They should make Mysticism better... I mean, idk about pvp, but in PvE its kinda useless.... ||   Dark  <font color="Black">Mugen  14:20, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I've played Derv since I started GW in Nightfall, and I'm still shocked out how little people think of Dervs. 203.173.150.123 22:27, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Dervs don't suck, they just need a tune up in some of their other attributes --<font color="Olive">Sage  <font color="Olive">Talk  01:51, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If Dervs get a buff, then scythes better get a nerf. And WS. -_- 69.165.141.214 16:48, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I am almost 100% sure they will not touch Scythe mastery. Scythes are on the verge of being unbalanced as is. --<font color="Olive">Sage  <font color="Olive">Talk  19:38, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

AI
My heroes, livia olias and mow stand still now for a while after they do something. THey cast and stop moving for about 3 seconds. Its annoying Demonic Fahrir talk 19:57, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * They are possibly reworking Heroes; I hope is the full heroes team. -- NeHoMaR [[Image:User_NeHoMaR_sig.jpg]] 00:07, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You are dreaming. There will never be a full heroes team. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  05:31, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If you don't work at ArenaNet, you are dreaming too. -- NeHoMaR [[Image:User_NeHoMaR_sig.jpg]] 06:14, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thats not dreaming, thats realism. -- Cyan [[Image:User Cyan Light sig.jpg|19px]] 09:31, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, they have demonstrated their willingness towards allowing full hero parties by asking question about that very topic in the War in Kryta feedback survey. --Adul 10:24, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * They might have asked the question, but it would go against everything they have ever said on the matter. It would also totally ruin the multiplayer aspect of the game. I personally hope they never do it. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  11:24, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Everything they ever said was based on a larger active player base and Linsey as the team lead. When the lead changes, old ideas always get reconsidered.--[[Image:User Pyron Sy sig.png|19px| ]] Pyron Sy 13:22, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, I am incredibly annoyed by the 'multiplayer experience' and thus support a full-hero party. Being told I have to have a certain build with a certain green for a slot in a party, and then waiting 30 minutes for a healer who AFKs halfway through... is just not fun to me. Vael Victus  [[Image:User_Vael_Victus_Sig.jpg|18px|Pancakes.]] 15:35, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Besides, Anet has lately been known for making separate rules for PvP and PvE. They are already on their way to disable heroes in PvP altogether. Whether or not they allow full hero parties in PvE is an entirely different matter. --Adul 15:55, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Where have you been? They removed heroes from all PvP a while ago. Can't even use them in the Zaishen arenas, last time I checked. @Vael: I agree. I especially want to use more heroes in the Canthan elite missions so my wife and I don't have to find someone else, usually someone who demands that we take a certain build and/or leaves us halfway through. --RoyHarmon 06:27, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Errr... if you and your wife are playing, why do you have to get anyone else? 2 people = 6 heroes = full team! -- Salome   [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 11:17, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The Canthan elite missions RoyHarmon mentioned in his post both have 12-player teams and no henchmen. Therefore, at least 3 players are required to fill the team. The number of enemies is also scaled up to match the team size, so doing the missions with a team of 8 is usually not considered to be a desirable method. --Adul 11:57, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Those missions are just the thing which are really fun to do with real people. Find a nice guild or get in an alliance. Problem solved. -- Cyan [[Image:User Cyan Light sig.jpg|19px]] 15:41, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't want to, how bout that? ;) I don't really see what the obsession with multiplayer really is. You like multiplayer, you do that. Noone's gonna stop you. I don't like multiplayer, so why deny me the experience? There is just no logic behind your arguments. Chances are if you like socializing in games, you already are in an active guild. You can just go on and do your stuff with your mates without paying mind to me, and I can go on my own separate way. --Adul 16:14, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * GW is made for multiplaying, its a MMORPG (however questionable in other ways). If we ever get the addition that we can add 7 heroes to our party, what is then left of the whole multiplaying aspect? Most of the time you will see teams with heroes all the way, and the players who like to multiplay will be left out. Sure you can use my argument against me 'join a nice guild', but it is also nice to start a random team to go through a mission. Besides, guildies dont always play the same as you do, so they havent always the time to join. So no 7 hero teams, it will break stuff. -- Cyan [[Image:User Cyan Light sig.jpg|19px]] 18:28, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Guild Wars is not titled an MMORPG by anyone except for some of the fans, and even they are mistaken. Guild Wars is a multiplayer game, the same way as Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights are multiplayer games. Although GW has a more integrated multiplayer aspect than these games (in the form of outposts), it is definitely not massively multiplayer. Massively multiplayer games involve a persistent game world with all of the associated headaches which I will not get into right now.

And if I accepted your argument for not allowing me to enter elite missions on my own with just heroes (e.g. if I go alone, a PUG might just have to do the mission without me, oh what pity), then I should also accept the argument that henchmen encourage playing alone and therefore they should be removed from all outposts to encourage PUGging and teamwork. Neither of these are valid arguments, yours no more than the other one. PUGs decline regardless of how many heroes are allowed in a team. That is sad but perfectly normal in an aging game like Guild Wars. --Adul 19:26, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Alternatively, you could simply not do urgoz and the deep. It isn't a requirement that all content is available to people who don't pug. The suggestion was already made - find an alliance or guild that still does those missions and stay in it long enough to clear them once for the statue. Your options at this point are either A. suck it up and get the missions done or B. insist on being antisocial and never get the statue. There's only 1 viable option if the statue is your goal.
 * Either way, 3 heroes per player is all I can see at this point. Guild Wars isn't dead enough that you can't find a single additional person for 90% of the content - you can even clear FoW with 2 players and 6 heroes. Bumping the limit up to 7 simply so a few players who are unwilling to spend a bit of energy finding a team can do urgoz by themselves doesn't seem like a feasible "fix" at this point. Calling Guild Wars a MMO is mislabeling, but calling it a single-player game is equally wrong. You aren't expected to be able to find 25 people for a raid, but finding 4 or 5 with heroes isn't out of the question. - Auron 19:52, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Well actually, I have already finished all elite missions including Urgoz and Deep, and no, I didn't do them alone. I already have added everything that I wanted to to my HoM, and that is not the reason I'm promoting the full hero team. I do it because it would be the right direction for a game like Guild Wars with a declining player base, and because when I log on 3 years from now I'd still like to be able to participate in any of this content. And I think I will finish my argument here, I fear if I carried on I'd be redundant. --Adul 20:11, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * While I agree with you, I would like to point out that you can already make a group of yourself and AI. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 20:28, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course, but I still believe in the 'hero is better then henchman' story, because editable skills and such. Henchman did improve (a little), but I still place them in the 'bad' corner. -- Cyan [[Image:User Cyan Light sig.jpg|19px]] 21:32, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course, but I still believe in the 'hero is better then henchman' story, because editable skills and such. Henchman did improve (a little), but I still place them in the 'bad' corner. -- Cyan [[Image:User Cyan Light sig.jpg|19px]] 21:32, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I would love to do the UW or FoW, and this would make it possible. I don't want to do some dumb speed clear where I see one part of it then go to a chest, that's dumb. I stood in ToA with my Paragon for a good hour looking for someone to do FoW with, and couldn't find a person. The game's dead as shit, let me play it. &mdash;  Skakid  17:20, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Funny o.o i reported how my heroes idle for 3 seconds after every spell and it ended into a discussion about 7 hero teams. How did that happen! Demonic Fahrir talk 17:25, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * This wiki have weird ways of expanding, you will never know where it ends =D -- Cyan [[Image:User Cyan Light sig.jpg|19px]] 17:38, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If you want to play with AI only it seems you only want a single player experience. If so why not just play Dragon Age or even Oblivion? Both are superior games to GW. As far as pugging goes...don't you have a guild or an friend's list? You can also post on various forums like Guru to arrange a group. You can specify you hate speed clears, that's how I got things done if no guildies wanted to go.-- *Yasmin Parvaneh* [[Image:User_yasmin_parvaneh_sig.png]] 18:06, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think you've thought that through. When you say that Dragon Age and Oblivion are better games than GW, you see, that's your personal preference. Others' experience may differ. For example, I find both of those OK games, although bland as hell. I find the playing experience of GW PvE far superior to either of those games. Of course, I have other games I really like other than GW, but that sure won't stop me from playing GW, because I enjoy it. --Adul 08:49, 13 October 2010 (UTC)


 * That game is too deep and complex and takes way too long to get into, GW you get to level 20, find out the skills monsters are using in an area and try to develop builds to beat it quickly and effectively. They're different games. &mdash;  Skakid  16:15, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Um interesting argument about 7 heros in party but it should be noted that anet already released that they were going to make 7 hero parties happen. Rogueonion 17:09, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Update #2
New build a few minutes ago fixed Mysticism's description.173.84.27.232 02:30, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Is Guild wars crashing for anyone else since these updates?
Or is it just something that suddenly popped up for me specifically? I doubt that due to timing but anything is possible. I can just be standing there for a couple minutes and it throws up a message box telling me that an error occurred and asks to send a log to arenanet.4.152.165.181 05:13, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I keep getting that too. Happened after the first update. :S 17:54, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Tengu in Nahpui
I was doing the mission in HM, and I noticed the Star Tengu were dropping bones and not feathers. 121.210.24.188 06:19, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Dont know how to edit, but just wanted to say that all tengu have a chance of dropping bones instead of feathers.

Oh, alright. 121.210.24.188 09:52, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * thats true, all tengu and similar creatuers as sensali drop both bones and feathers Equiliym 14:23, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

"For the Monument to Honor, reduced the display requirement for the Hero statue from tier eight to tier six." In the latest update, what does this mean exactly? What is the "hero statue"?
 * Hero title. For winning in HA. MAFARAXAS 18:24, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

New Hero
Who will it be? Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә    ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 18:36, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, you talk about a new hero, so who knows? =P -- Cyan [[Image:User Cyan Light sig.jpg|19px]] 18:47, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It's actually me. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 20:16, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Felix...for my sanity I hope not :-P  Since I assume this new hero will be from Factions, I'm going to shoot myself if it's a Sin hero.  A 3rd Rit hero would be awesome, but would be OP (ST, Spirit healer, SoS at the same time), so I'm guessing in the spirit of Anet, it will be some useless profession we don't need another of like Monk/War/Derv/Ele/Ranger/Nec.  At least I hope it's a cool skin like Wallow/Dredge/Saltspray Dragon.  (Usaf1a8xx 09:08, 14 November 2010 (UTC))
 * John Stumme said it will be "is neither an Assassin, nor a Ranger!" Z  encow [[Image:User_Ox_rider_Sig.png]] 09:23, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

HoM Rewards not for PvP players!!!
Thx ANET! ... Only 3 points for PvP, have been playing mainly PvP for over 5 years and I have been playing it a LOT! Why am I any less than farmers, grinders and even botters! -62.163.189.137 21:23, 10 October 2010 (UTC) fix'd. 98.248.90.248 01:13, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not fair, but it's true. PvP players are simply not part of the GW2 target player-base. --Adul 21:44, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Not to mention GW1 also has ALOT more PVE content than PVP so hums PVE rules after all? Rogueonion 21:45, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * And the biggest insult is you can get the "PvP" statue without PvPing at all. It's a pretty good joke. - Auron 21:57, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * PvP "content" is other players. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 21:57, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Yea that is a good joke, but I am getting a kick out of all the people I know who are like what I did pvp I should be more special than anyone else. The thing is there are more PVE players than PVP players and majority rules yea? Rogueonion 22:00, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * So? They're just skins, titles and minis, not exactly must haves for a hardcore PvPer like you --<font color="Black" >A <font color="Red" >zreal <font color="Black">o <font color="Red">f <font color="Black" >S <font color="Red">kyrim [[Image:User Azreal of skyrim signature.jpg]] 22:08, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Following that logic, why were reward points put into the game? Their only purpose is to unlock skins in gw1. - Auron 22:19, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Following that logic why do you need skins for PVP? you need functionality for PVP not skins right? Rogueonion 22:29, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That was my question, yes. - Auron 22:38, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Following that logic, why is PvP still in a GUI, why is it not text based? C'mon, of course PvP-ers like graphics as well, just like PvE-ers. -62.163.189.137 22:41, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I am sorry I am not very eloquent, I was trying to understand aurons point and I did not make a very good attempt at it lol. Rogueonion 22:43, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I have several "points" on this topic. Firstly, ANet is shafting PvPers every way possible, but they've been doing that for years so it's no real surprise. Secondly, ANet doesn't understand why PvPers PvP, which is obvious by them putting in reward points. The purpose of tournament reward points were to give PvPers access to skins, except half the PvPers didn't care about skins and the other half had PvE chars, so all reward points ended up getting traded for zkeys which were sold in stacks to people for real money. When I stopped playing, zkeys were going for $80/stack, but they had started around 130.
 * So my point is really that ANet is fucking over PvPers once again, and the crowd of PvErs who don't fully understand what they're talking about is acting like it's perfectly fine. Good developers reward both player bases evenly, instead of 100% of the rewards being for one and none at all being for the other. I don't have a problem with ANet giving PvE rewards, I only have a problem with ANet giving PvE rewards and nothing else. GWAMM transfers over to GW2 - do our PvP titles? There are more than 30 PvE titles alone, but less than 5 PvP titles (and each one is exceedingly difficult to "max" - literally years of playing compared to a couple of days or weeks). It isn't an outlandish expectation to be able to show those titles in Guild Wars 2. Can I flash a tiger on my Guild Wars 2 characters to show that I did PvP in GW1? Again, no - there is nothing to show for my years of PvP play in GW2.
 * This isn't a rant made out of hatred or a feeling that I've been shafted - I have 34 reward points, so I have access to every reward listed for GW2. My problem is just that it's all given for my efforts in PvE. You could remove my PvP statue entirely (the thing which took far more work than all of my PvE statues combined) and I would still have enough to get all the items. Do you see a problem with that picture? I know I do. - Auron 23:22, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You idiots think PVP is important? Since when? Because some random dude who works for ANet told you so? Believe him too if he told you Hamstorm works for PVP while you are at it. Have they shown so much as ONE GW2 PvP video yet? I watched all the videos, and if i was not told there would also be PVP in GW2, i would believe GW2 is only about PVE. When they check for botters in GW1, they check for Bergen Hot Springs and auto-drunkards. Do they check for botters in Jade Quarry? Never. The same bots are running around on Luxon side since the past 8 months. Want proof? Go to Gaile Gray's Botwatch page and see which area is getting botted the most. They do NOT care. Do they check for botters in Random Arena? Never. Same trash. Do they check for botters in HA? Probably every 4 months or so, and only one out of 100 gets banned. Do they check for botters in GvG? Probably one out of 100 every 2 months. Compare that to how many PVE botters get banned...Did they fix the PVP problem of leechers? LOL? Even full teams of 4 in AB go in to leech. PVE is important as it is the whole core, story, gameplay of GW1 and GW2, PVP is just something they give to thugs and trolls for hitting each other and feeling good about themselves. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 173.32.190.24 (talk).
 * Out of genuine curiosity, Auron, I would like to hear your opinion on what PvP players DO play for. - Zaxares 23:51, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * wtb not having a good game fucked over. --184.153.31.65 00:21, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The fun and challenge of playing against skilled teams in a balanced game. - Auron 00:25, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not the least bit surprised hardcore PvPer's got screwed. I mean, what have you done that helps a-net? I doubt any PvPer's bought the costumes. All you guys do is bitch about balance and updates. You don't encourage new PvPers to join, if anything you drive them away. Why should A-net give you anything? 67.149.248.3 01:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "The frustration and anger of playing against gimmicky teams in a broken game."
 * In that case, Auron, it seems like pvpers don't need any tangible rewards, since their enjoyment is based entirely on other players. And I'd hardly consider balancing the game a reward. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 01:17, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you know why I play WoW PvE and not the shitfestival guild wars pretends to call PvE? It's not because of the minipets. It's not because of the skins or the superior PvE balance or the existence of the Z axis or flying mounts. It's because of the actual PvE content. The raids that are so well-crafted that the entire experience feels other-worldly - stepping into Icecrown Citadel and feeling like I'm about to take on the Lich King in a fight to the death. It's something Guild Wars PvE has never had.
 * But that doesn't mean blizzard shouldn't put in all that stuff I talked about. It all adds to the final product. Yea, people play PvP to experience the high-level combat - but that doesn't mean it's alright to force them to do it in the PvP Strength Shield and PvP Sword of Fortitude. Have you heard of league of legends? One of the most popular PvP games atm, and it's free to play - but they have micro-transactions to buy different skins for the characters. It's optional but it's there. There are PvPers in Guild Wars who PvP on PvE characters - even though it's more work than simply rolling a pvp char (especially getting 5-7 different shields with all the mods), it's "worth it" to that player to be able to be on obs mode with shiny gear.
 * Right now, ANet is saying "fuck you" to PvPers. That's something smart companies don't do. In order to get the most sales, you make the game appeal to as many people as possible - and that means throwing a bone to the PvPers. In WoW, a very obviously PvE-dominated game, the top .5% or so of arena players in each battlegroup get a very rare mount that is simply not available to PvErs. They also get some tabards and unique PvP weapon/armor skins. Yea, those people do the PvP because they prefer PvPing, but that doesn't make it fine to completely ignore that entire section of the playerbase.
 * ANet has 30 tiers of vanity items, minipets, titles and ranger pets specifically geared to appeal to PvErs. The only thing they've added that PvPers would be more interested in is a few of the titles - Ghostly Hero, for example, is one every PvPer knows quite well from the time spent doing HA. Why is there not a single PvP reward there? Even something seemingly PvE that shows that one did PvP - like a minipet based on their tombs rank (a small deer, wolf, tiger, phoenix or dragon)? ANet put no effort whatsoever into a huge section of their playerbase - and despite your misunderstandings of that side of the playerbase, we realize a "fuck you" when we see one. And "fuck you" is definitely what ANet is saying. - Auron 01:48, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

If I might restate it: When GW2 is released, dedicated PvErs will have symbols that showcase the time and effort they put into GW1 PvE, their very history with the game, that set them apart from newcomers. A sign that they were masters of the first game's PvE, returning to blaze a trail into the new PvE experience. Nothing will distinguish accomplished PvPers of GW1 from neophyte GW2 players. Nothing will show their dedication to excellence in GvG, HA, or even RA, Hero Battle, and Codex. Their efforts are distilled into something undifferentiated, and relegated to a small portion of the whole. MA Anathe 03:45, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Which is a pretty bad move on ANet's part, considering that GW is a PvP game and all. <font color="#0AA">–~=<font color="#0AA">Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png <font color="#0AA">(τѧιк)  &larr;&hearts;– 03:49, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Well said. - Auron 03:53, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * There was already no impetus for pvpers to play GW2, since it won't have pvp, so why get all upset about a lack of pvp rewards? [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 03:57, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The part I don't understand is how a game that was originally marketed as a competitive online game degraded into yet another pseudo MMO where you don't have to play with anyone to play the game. Rewards should have been balanced for both PvE and PvP, not 95% PvE and 5% PvP.  And even the PvE rewards, you can get 0 to 30 points in less than a month, which alienates PvE'ers that were really hardcore grinders. I think, a lot of people still hope that GW2's structured PvP will still allow for balanced game play.  If they do it right the first time, and keep the skills separated between PvE and PvP to begin with, there is some hope... but looking at how GW1 PvP evolved, since factions, I doubt it. --<font color ="#8b0701">Lania  [[Image:User Lania Elderfire pinkribbon.jpg]]04:15, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Are we absolutely sure that there will be nothing for pvp players? For example, GWAMM is completely separate from the HoM rewards and you'll be able to display it in gw2 if you have it in gw1, even though its not listed in the rewards. 98.248.90.248 04:16, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You know, my hope is that since it's still quite far from the release date, they'll have time to refine the HoM rewards, and other rewards so that more people will be happy. --<font color ="#8b0701">Lania  [[Image:User Lania Elderfire pinkribbon.jpg]]04:50, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe Anet is as sick of the elitist PvP attitudes as some of us PvErs are. I get asked to "help" a pvper with pve and happily say yes, only to be told I'm doing it wrong, I'm running the wrong build, etc etc. Well, I have accomplished just about everything there is to accomplish in PvE doing it the way I do it, and running the builds I run. It makes me not want to even play with you guys anymore, let alone read all the rants and bitches about the balance, and how badly pvp is screwed over. I would be perfectly happy if GW2 turned out to be 100% pve, though I doubt I'd get my wish. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  05:24, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Bad argument. I'm a straight pve'r and im fully aware that its easy as shit and that just about anything can get through it. Just because it can complete pve doesnt mean its good. 98.248.90.248 05:33, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It's also a bad argument because PvE has an equal amount of elitists, just a much lower skill cap. Attempting to join a pug ursan run or any speedclear group is enough to show that much. Additionally, elitists have money, too - when the company's goal is to make money (the reason GW2 is generic MMO copypaste #19032098), ignoring entire sections of a playerbase is a great way to fuck it up. - Auron 05:42, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * @ 173.32.190.24  ...Don't be a complete douche man. I was never intending to say that PVP was not important, however I was trying to say that PVE was more important than PVP players gave us PVE'rs credit for.  I certainly have a healthy respect for both PVP and PVE however that was just downright rude of you whoever you are. I agree PVP is being shafted, however, there is SO much LESS of the PVP world in GW1 and seems to be EVEN less of it in GW2 does this mean GW is leaning more heavily to the PVE side of things? I do not know but I can say this, this new GW is an entire new set of tech and nobody TRULY knows how it will function until the day we get to jump in. I agree neither PVE nor PVP should be slighted however it just might be possible that this new technology might prove nonfunctional to the PVP Players out there. Rogueonion 06:40, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Any PUG speed clear teams, there's elitists... DTSC, MQSC, SoOSC, etc... no shortage of raging elitists screaming at people in team and ally chat for being bad. Yeah, the PvP is what made guildwars truly unique in comparison to other MMO's. Hopefully GW2 will continue that.  --<font color ="#8b0701">Lania  [[Image:User Lania Elderfire pinkribbon.jpg]]07:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Honestly Auron, we are happy that you enjoy WoW PvE (I hated it), but your arguments are completely, and totally invalid. First of all, stop QQing about PvPers getting a "fuck you" in GW2 rewards, this is completely ridiculous.  Top 0.5% of WoW PvPers get a rare mount?  The top GW PvP players got rare minis, and plenty of gold.  Winning a mAT nets you what... 4500 rewards points or 900zkeys?  Balth faction through the roof...  Emotes...  JUST like WoW PvPers getting rewarded in WoW.  GW1 PvP players in have been rewarded in GW1.  Until WoW2 comes out and they create rewards for players that played WoW1, you cannot compare the two games, period.  PvPers are some of the richest players in GW, and guess what?  99% of the rewards for GW2 can be bought, with minimal time invested.  Hardcore PvEer's can argue that they aren't being recognized either, 30 HoM points can be accomplished in in a few days from a brand new account, or bought in a few minutes.  ANet isn't going to give you r15 hero emote in GW2, just like they won't give the players that won a Mini Made King Guard/Visu/Panda/Island Guardian anything special in GW2.  The rewards are udder crap for all hardcore players, not just PvPers, looking for special treatment this time will NOT HELP YOU.  Are you worried that you will not be able to display GWAMM in GW2?  You will prolly be much more impressed with yourself by displaying the GW2 PvP titles, and not some old "I completed GW1 grind" title.  Rank discrimination has be a nightmare for GW PvP, and one of the main reasons for it's demise, giving everyone in GW2 their corresponding PvP rank would be a complete disaster.  Honestly I think its incredibly lame to give rewards AT ALL cross-game.  Why spend any time at all linking the two games so we can earn GW2 armor before the game is even released?  Why destroy GW2 PvP with discrimination before GW2 PvP is even shown to us?  The HoM reward calculator (GW2 rewards) is a BS ploy to get people to buy their game, why do you expect anything more? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 173.217.77.185 (talk).

I'm really happy I started this topic, have read some really good arguments here. I don't think I need to sum it up, but I just like to do this for ANet, otherwise they might miss the point! The main conclusion must be: that everyone (except for that last guy, but I'm just going to ignore that comment because imo it's flawed logic in almost every sense of it) agrees on the fact that PvP-ers are disadvantaged with this GW2 HoM reward system! Both PvP-ers and PvE-ers agree on this (just read the comments)! Sure, most PvE-ers probably have their own reasons why they believe PvP-ers don't deserve any HoM rewards (how compelling some reasons are, I don't believe most of these arguments are valid though: Obnoxious elitists are everywhere, also in PvE; PvP-ers like skins and graphics as well; PvP-ers like to be rewarded as well; You might even conclude that PvP-ers are human as well!), and some PvE-ers even agree with the PvP-ers and see the unfairness as well, but in the end everyone agrees on the fact that it's a severely skewed HoM reward system. And from that conclusion alone, ANet should draw their conclusion! It's not too late yet. GW2 is still in developing phase. Please ANet, if you read this, please re-consider the current HoM reward system! I.e. by rewarding a few more points for every extra PvP-title, or give different looking rewards for the PvP-ers, or indeed a bambi/wolfie/tiger/phoenix/dragon minipet/emote for the HA heroes, but please do something for your PvP player base. Or just remove the 3 points altogether: that way you would just say GW2 is not meant for PvP-ers (which might be understandable, seeing some of the arguments above mainly from disgruntled PvE-ers), leaving it as it is right now (a mere 3 points!) is imo an insult to your PvP player base, which is probably even worse! -62.163.189.137 09:34, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Have to admit, and its rare I say this, but I agree with Auron. I don't really PvP myself, however if I had spent years playing in that arena, I would want more than 3 poxy points for my efforts. Personally I think the PvP monuments should have been treated as separate by the calculator, not part of the harmoginous mass of 50 points, and each monument for pvp give a unique pvp point on a different scale awarding the PvP'ers with a unique item unavailable to people who didn't pvp. -- Salome   [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 09:49, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Completely agree!!! -62.163.189.137 09:54, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I have read the whole thing and I'm still not getting what you guys are arguing about. Is this really another PvSomething is superior to PvOtherthing fight? Yes, Anet is rewarding PvE players and not PvP players, and the reason is that there are more PvE players and therefore they will likely buy more GW2 boxes than PvP players. If Anet would introduce two sets of rewards, one for PvE and one for PvP, a lot of PvE players would ragequit. So things are more than likely going to stay as they are. It sucks, I know, but that's how it is. --Adul 10:04, 11 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Personally, as a primary GW PvE'er, I'm pissed I even have to bother with PvP at all to get the 50/50. Thankfully, I just brought the keys to get the requirement.  And, on a side note, I was wondering when this "no love to pvp QQ" was going to hit, I mean, after all, how many people complaining went down the whole "GW was made for PvP" arguement line.  However, you never know, the PvP titles could carry over in the same way GWAMM is going to.  <font color="Black">000.00.00.00  10:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * In response to 000, I agree as a PvE'er I wasn't happy to see PvP included within the 50 points either, however that's just another reason why I think PvP and PvE should have had seperate reward systems (just like they always have), would have been vastly fairer all round.
 * @ Adul although I take your point and agree with it, I do think that occasionally the player base just needs to be told to grow the hell up, if someone didnt do something, they don't get the reward and all the stomping of feet and holding of breath in the world shouldn't get that person taken more seriously. This however is exactly what the HoM calculator does, it caters for moany casual players who just can't accept that some things take either time or determination and therefore just aren't open to them, instead anet has basically taken the lolly off the kid who bought it, so that no one has one anymore and weirdly this has made the casual player base happy. Very very odd. It's all basically a sentiment of "well if I can't have it, no one will!". Which simply shouldn't be catered for and is saddening to see the HoM go this way. -- Salome   [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 10:28, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, you never have to be in a single pvp match to get a pvp statue, as the Zaishen title counts as pvp. Yes, it is that bad. Your accomplishments do not matter, just the amount of titles you haul. The more you grind, the better your rewards will be. It makes no sense at all. But hey, fucking up is what Anet does best!  Koda  [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_UT.jpeg‎|19px]]  Kumi  11:00, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * @Salome, I do agree with that, I think everyone should get recognition for their accomplishments - the hardcore player no less than the casual player, the PvPer no less than the PvEer. Clearly this is not exactly what happened, and if someone complains (or in internet talk whines) about it, then they have my sympathy. What bothers me is that in just a few posts, a valid argument is again broken down to this ridiculous and utterly pointless PvP vs PvE fight that seems to rear its ugly head up everywhere these days. --Adul 11:16, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree Adul, as soon as I hear the stupid PvP v PvE rant, I do get the urge to start slapping people. It's the most pointless debate and has been ongoing for nearly 5.5 years, all of which just detracts from the point of, as you said, everyone getting recognition for their accomplishments, regardless of where they were gained. -- Salome   [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 11:27, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Well that's exactly why I started this topic in the first place, not to bring up the PvE vs. PvP rant again! We're all GW players and we're all potential GW2 players. Please acknowledge all of us, not just one group even while I know it's the biggest group. And as been supposed, there are several ways to acknowledge the PvP-ers which are clearly left out at the moment. And I do agree that a separate reward system for PvP-ers might turn out to be the best option. And please don't make PvP rewards prettier or more significant than PvE rewards, because I (as a PvP-er) don't feel any better than any PvE-er out there. For that matter, I even hope such PvP rewards would just be small tokens of just saying we haven't forget you guys! Please let the PvE-ers have the real grand rewards. Not that PvE-ers that have played as much PvE as I played PvP deserve to be rewarded more than I do, but only because us PvP-ers mostly don't care to be overly rewarded for something we like to play. Playing PvP battles can be rewarding as such, and I know grinding isn't! Just a small gesture from ANet would be more than enough. And with a small gesture, I don't mean 3 of 50 points, which to me is nothing less than a huge insult! -62.163.189.137 11:51, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If they were to give unique rewards strictly for pvp players, yes it would piss off a huge amount of players. However, they should have done something more for those who prefer pvp over pve. Since getting 30/50 isn't that difficult for pve, and 50/50 only slightly difficult for dedicated players, they should have given the pvp titles a bit more weight. For example, the pvp statues worth 5 points each, rather than 1 only. That way, a pvp player wouldn't need to play much pve content to get 30/50, but would still need to work a bit to get 50/50. I also agree with Salome that there should have been something other than crappy titles after 30. From the sound of it, you can only wear one at a time, so every 50/50 will be wearing CotG to show off, rather than having their special weapon or mini on display. I personally prefer Legend of the Mist, and will likely wear that one even if I make it to 50, so those extra 5 points will go unnoticed by other players.--[[Image:User Pyron Sy sig.png|19px| ]] Pyron Sy 12:22, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I prefer Flameseeker personally, so if I do make 50, I like you Pyron, will have wasted points. *sigh* -- Salome   [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 12:25, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Well if you look on the bright side, the more points you have, the more titles you can choose from. So those of us who like playing multiple characters will already have a nice base title collection to give each of our characters a personal title. But yeah, that's the only upside I can think of for earning over 30 points. --Adul 13:02, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * While I totally agree with all of you, I have to say this only so that it is said, so does that mean that they should split PVP and PVE and just make 2 separate games for each? I mean, that is what I am reading from some of the statements above, I mean, yea there are PVE elitists, and PVP elitists. However, it seems to me that the majority of PVE elitists really do not know how to do anything other than omg TERRA sin, lets see, Glaiveway, Terra Sin, Glaiveway, Terra sin and for gods sake anet fucking nerf discord already that shit is retarded annoying because most of these elitists could not survive 5 minutes in guildwars without 3 necro heroes abusing that skill... I digress you get my point, =D I really hope they do give you guys some recognition, just try to be a little more accepting and helpful when someone try's to learn something new. Rogueonion 14:37, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't believe they should make 2 games, but yea there has always been a distinctive line between PvE-ers and PvP-ers which doesn't have to be a bad thing as such, they're 2 complete different play styles after all. ANet should just not ignore 1 of the 2, but can imo quite easily cater them on a bit of a fair level, not how they do it right now! As of your last part. That's a complete different issue, I totally agree with the rank discrimination (I believe you're referring to that, right?) being a very bad thing. I myself helped my PvE-buddies to get them a bambi, just because I can actually get into better teams than they could. Also on that part: I gave my PvE-buddies most of my zaishen drops and z-quest money, because I'm a PvP-er, except for some nice looking armors/weapons I don't need any of that PvE-stuff, right? Wrong! now ANet tells me I should've been greedy all the time so I can also get my HoM rewards ... -62.163.189.137 14:58, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, see I said it above to Salome in a totally different conversation I think ANET thinks that in 5 years, you have had the opportunity to make a choice, grind out some PVE shit and get those titles, or do PVP, I think deep down that choice is a matter of perspective thats great, every time I tried to learn PVP I got boo'd out and called a noob (of course I was a noob for TRYING to learn something from a bunch of people who pushed newcomers out because they want to win and newcomers are ignorant and incapable of learning. It comes down to this, if I hand in my resume to a job the first thing they want is x# of years experience but if I don't have that experience then I do not get the job, well, same goes here you guys act like helping a newcomer to learn is so beneath you that you can just treat them with contempt. I personally hate PVP based on the treatment I received from PVP players in general, so thanks for that push to make the CHOICE to work PVE and get my benefits and the final statement above applies to PVP PVE and even this freaking wiki(some will know what I reference).  Rogueonion 15:08, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * And I've got some bad experiences with some elite PvE-ers (with ursanway being the worst of all, but I can mention a lot more, even in the current state of the game!), just because I'm a PvE-noob. Doesn't make us that different at all, does it? Now my question is, why are we rewarded completely (and with that I mean day and night) different??? -62.163.189.137 15:37, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I dunno why are you given stacks of zkeys, and massive amounts of gold and we cannot even farm to make gold or our best builds get nerfed? 600 was great I LOVED to just go with me and a hero and not die... Rogueonion 15:50, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * 600/smite still works... you just need a human smite now, and it's slower. Luckily my SO plays a good smite :), not so good on the 600 side of things.  I think I've have just as many bad experiences in PvE as I did with PvP with elitists, and been called everything from noob to stupid bitch to worthless.  But, that's also always with Pugs, that never happens with guild teams, or with hero/hench... I think if your hero is calling you a noob, then you are really doing something wrong, lol. --<font color ="#8b0701">Lania  [[Image:User Lania Elderfire pinkribbon.jpg]]18:21, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Lania LOL. You are right it still works and I am sorry it is NOT the same, and the whole point was that I could take a hero and do it without other players. NOW? I have to rely on ... pugs because nobody I know can run the smite build to any degree of competence. I am still waiting for a justification on why PVP players can be given the ability to get stacks of zkeys and massive amounts of gold while PVE players are kept from making gold through farming or it is made incredibly hard for us to make gold through farming to get those types of benefits and how this HoM calculator thing is not in a way the same thing if only reversed? Rogueonion 18:39, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Zkeys are only worth what the player base deemed it worth(4.5k-5k)and nothing more. If tomorrow everyone decided Zkeys should be sold 500g each, earning tons of it would not be worth tons of money. Unlike rare materials like ectos, where the current price is completely dependent on what the rare material trader says, Zkeys have absolutely no dependent price other than a common agreement of what they are worth.
 * Right, and the only real way for me to get Zkeys is to do some form of PVP. Which means PVP players have a corner on a market and can charge whatever the hell they want for them. I point this out because, if you think about it, PVP players ostracize people who want to learn to PVP, and you corner a market which sucks the already MEAGER amount of gold we make from us as well. I mean... For those "Hardcore PVPr's" what DO you do with all that gold? Maybe they should make Zkeys available easily/inexpensively to the rest of guild wars via merchants lets call that balance yea? Mind you I am only playing devil's advocate however I believe that the stance of ANET regarding you 5 year HARDCORE PVP players might go something like this: you had 5 years + to work the same titles as everybody else and you CHOSE to not do so why should you get special treatment if you did not do the work? They added a PVP statue in and if we look realistically at the size of the game and how much content there really is to guild wars we see that PVP is truly a very small part of Guild Wars anyway. You have CHOSEN to not take part in the larger part of the game so you CHOSE to not get the rewards that everyone else gets. (though realistically they should have kept the PVP and PVE rewards separate.) Rogueonion 20:38, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Honestly, I'm surprised how many people didn't see this whole thing coming. The Hall of Monuments, for the most part, is a PvE thing. Also, we don't know much about the PvP aspect of the game, there still more be something for the PvPers form GW in GW2, just give it a bit of time. I mean, after all, how long have PvPers held that little quote from Mike that GW = PvP? 203.173.150.123 20:52, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Unsure what you are trying to say 203173150123 one employee says its pvp so it is? Ok let us count the content, How many PVE titles are there? How many PVP? How big are the PVE maps? How about the PVP area how big is that map? How many quests are there in PVE? How many in PVP? How many more questions like this do I need to bring up to prove my point?
 * I tell you, Guild Wars is largely PVE, and who cares what "Mike" said. Who is Mike btw? Never heard of him. Does he even still work there? Could the quote have been a momentary thing? I mean really I've said stuff like that and never meant it to go past the moment when I said it who has not? Rogueonion 21:28, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * PvP used to be a big deal... anyone remember the prophecies and factions GvG championship series when WM and EVIL duked it out? That was a lot of money, and almost all the effort into game balancing went into PvP to make the PvP content ready for primetime, and tournament style play.  Watching them play in Obs mode was like watching a good football game... Comparing the size and number of maps, and number of titles IMO is a bad way to say what is more important.  For many players GW is still a PvP game, while for others it's a PvE game and for some it's both.  Also I've haven't been playing PvP since 2006, and yet I was still able to make about 3 million gold including liquid assets without any kind of power trading, and I've spent over 2.5 million just buying "stuff".  A lot of PvE only people have a lot of money, just like many PvPers are rich as well... --<font color ="#8b0701">Lania  [[Image:User Lania Elderfire pinkribbon.jpg]]22:10, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Power Trading what an interesting term. I HATE trading with other players (scam artists, and general douche bags for the most part is what I encounter doing so). How much of that gold did you make during PVP? Watching someone do something is really never as much fun as doing it myself (this last in reference to football=) I like you Lania you bring perspective out of my less than eloquent posts thanks=D. I did not mean to indicate that PVP was unimportant I meant to compare the actual amount of content in an attempt to try and see why guild wars did the HoM the way they did, I mean realistically looking at the content itself, there IS generally more for PVE than for PVP and that was the point I was trying to make. Rogueonion 22:23, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

A PvP vs PvE argument over this? Really? Really?! You've already won PvE'ers, so calm the fuck down. We get 2 arenas removed, you get the WiK. We get Codex, you get new weapon skins. We get promised a new HoH map 2 years ago and bi-monthly skill updates, you get a whole game for you (GW2). And so on and so forth. You win, we lose. You're where the money is, congrats. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate <font color="Black">Jesus   <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">01:20, 12 October 2010  (UTC)
 * Well, what I have to say to that is, perhaps you guys should not be so hostile to newcomers. I bet if the people who wanted to PVP were welcomed instead of ostracized. well you get my point. Rogueonion 02:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Indent correctly please :< Also, no, that wouldn't have made much of a difference - the big problem with PvP in GW is anet didn't know how to publicize it. It was the entire point of their game, so when it came out, everyone knew where to go to PvP just from word of mouth. Now that PvP is less popular, there is nothing in the game telling people how to get into the PvP.
 * If you visit isle of the nameless, you will notice the NPCs try to explain everything about the game in a very short crash course - hexes, conditions, enchantments, interrupts, kiting, healing, running the flag to the flagstand and even repairing and firing the catapult (important in some GvG maps). The problem is... this isn't really said anywhere. Nobody knows to go there, and once you arrive, the NPCs don't really help you find your way around. You're just supposed to figure it all out. Basically, ANet was relying on their playerbase to be the teachers of the next generation. That never works. You're supposed to figure out that, once you've learned the basics on the isle, you can enter a few pseudo-pvp matches against AI opponents where you learn... well, nothing much actually, just that AI is ridiculously bad. Once you beat the few AI teams, you're allowed to participate in RA. It doesn't tell you that there's anything past RA - it doesn't mention guild battles, heroes' ascent or codex arena as far as I know. You're just supposed to know they exist. All in all, it's a very poor design for anyone genuinely interested in jumping into the PvP content.
 * Random arenas is a good idea to get casuals interested in the PvP side, but the problem is it's also the highest form of PvP most of them ever do. Finding parties for GvG is next to impossible unless you know someone, or happen to be part of a PvE guild that does a GvG every weekend for fun. HA has a bunch of its own problems, from rank discrimination to being generally dead (without even getting into the poor map balance).
 * This all adds up to making Guild Wars a very unintuitive game to jump into and play. The PvP content is absolutely fantastic once you've been doing it for awhile and know where to go to find groups, but for a total beginner, ArenaNet's complete lack of a guide really kills any attempt to get into the game. Compare it to starting a PvE campaign, where you have a NPC explaining each mechanic, usually with a visual to go along with it (like the nightfall intro that kills you and resses you to show how res shrines work). If ANet had something like that for first-time PvPers, they would have less of a playerbase problem. Once people have figured out how to PvP and then they get chased away by elitists, that's a different problem - but as people have said above, elitists are on both sides of the fence and they're equally douchebaggy no matter what part of the game they play. - Auron 05:33, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Yo Auron mad respect man thats more information than I have been able to gather about PVP from anyone in the 5.5 years I have played this game. thanks that is what I will go look at (I know it is a tad late in the game but thats a good direction and I am always trying to learn something new and make the game more interesting. I am going to go check that out. =D Rogueonion 06:01, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You're going to go check out isle of the nameless...oky doky, that's pretty hardcore of you. I beg to differ btw, the degree at which RA is played at is generally similar to that of the AI in training arena (especially assassins)-- S ilven User Silven sig.jpg 06:42, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Need I say more about the douche bag attitude? Rogueonion 07:48, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * @Karate Jesus, I really love your last comment and your stance as some holier than thou PvPer, telling PvEers how much THEY have gotten and how little YOU have gotten? I literally laughed out loud when I searched your personal HoM Rewards Calculator.  Is their something I am missing?  Have you been perma banned on a previous main account, and you refuse to start PvP over again? Based on your HoM reward calculations you are 99% PVE oriented, the ONLY PVP title you have is Zaishen?!?  Let me fix it for ya, " You've already lost PvP'ers, so calm the fuck down. You get 2 arenas removed, we get the WiK. You get Codex, we get new weapon skins. You get promised a new HoH map 2 years ago and bi-monthly skill updates, we get a whole game (GW2). And so on and so forth. You lose, we win. We're where the money is, kthxbai. " I just do not understand how someone who sides himself with PvPers so emotionally hasn't achieved rank in any legitimate(lol) PvP title.  It's not like you just haven't added it yet, you have taken the time to add survivor and many other PvE titles... It's not like you are inactive, I constantly see you posting/trolling e v e r y w h e r e, it can't be healthy to be this upset all the time over such little things...  Its to bad too, based on what little you have on your(outdated?) wiki page you seem like a decent relaxed person. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, either way you really need to stop being so critical of every single g-damn little thing. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 173.217.77.185 (talk).
 * @Rogueonion: This has been said before but, yes, you have douche bags in PvP, just like you have quite a few greedy ppl in PvE! I.e. I now need a lot of help to get my rewards in GW2. For (PvP) obvious reasons, I want 35 pts. It's going to be nearly impossible for me to get there, but with some help from some friendly PvE ppl I can at least give it a try! Now, the exact same friendly PvE ppl that I gave most of my z-quest money, z-keys, minis and other stuff to, are now saying: we all need the time and money to get to our own 50 pts! You see what I'm getting at, you have douche bags everywhere! The problem still is, that ANet rewards the one group of douche bags far more (even because of their douche-bag-I-ness :)) than the other group! Ow, and for the ppl that tell me to grind this and to farm that and I'll be on the 35 pts. in no-time: I'm sry, but I don't want to go back to PvE as a PvE-noob only to hear: where are your discord Necros; lol, he doesn't have PvE skills on his bar; it will cost you 10k for me to run you there! I just want my rewards in GW2!!! -62.163.189.137 08:43, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * @the unsigned comment: That's even more proof of how wrong this reward system is, if even hardcore PvE-ers can easily explain how unfair the PvP-ers are treated right now! -62.163.189.137 08:53, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * @62.163.189.137 want help with PVE? I am Rogue Onion hit me up in game I will be happy to help. Rogueonion 17:20, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Subsection below aside, speaking as a total PvE'er, I think something like the idea mentioned way above about the /rank emote carrying over or turning into minipets has merit. @62.163: Wow, your friends suck, man. - Tanetris 17:46, 12 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Late response is late. Actually, my guild/ally is pretty awesome about being inclusive in PvP. We let a guy who has never PvP'd fuze for us during some hilarious HA time. He was bad, but he's learning and actually getting better. We do stuff like that daily.
 * I think the reason most PvE'ers make rash assumptions about PvP and PvP'ers is because they've heard stereotypes and rumors and never actually tried to get to know any PvP'ers or actually play PvP outside of random AB, RA, or HA. Most of us are decent people, if not a bit more rash, but we still like to have fun. Some PvP'ers are assholes, it's true, but I would be willing to bet that PvE has about the same percentage of assholes.
 * tl;dr - Don't be prejudiced. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">02:28, 13 October 2010  (UTC)
 * Yes, that sounds about right. I guess one of the factors of me being a PvE player (other than a complete lack of competition-drive) is that I can avoid assholes. In PvE it's just as simple as pushing some heroes and henchies into your party and you're safe. --Adul 08:40, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

In regards to PvP'ers being hostile. Most of rank discrimination comes from the thought rank = skill. That is such a huge lie for example i've played with a r4 prot that protted better than some of the r10-11's i've met. PvP is about skill, personally I don't throw newcomers out, i realize that our pool of people (for HA at least) sucks. I will be against an utter noob who doesn't know a proper bar though. There is an entire wiki dedicated to builds, it's not that hard to pull one up, roll it, then pug a team. I'm quite suprised Auron got so into this tbh, yes we pvp'ers get fucked over quite a bit, which has been laid out quite extensively above, but I laugh when people complain about PvE being hard. I've hero hench vanquished all the campaigns by myself, it took a bit but its doable. Then there was the argument about the Zaishen title being pvp and being in the PvP corner market. You can get 6k faction a day, just do zaishen elite, 4 trappers = lolwut? So thats 4.5-5k a day, not to mention all the other money people are sitting on in ectos and other stuff. The thing that pisses me off most is the hero statue being changed to r6. R6 is a fucking joke honestly, you can gimmick your way to that in about a month if that, its plain stupid. R8 was just fine because you have to dedicate yourself at least a little bit, just like a PvE grinding title. I really hope they have good PvP in GW2, and that the game is not an attempt at wow2. Riff 14:27, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Devil's Advocate
PvPers don't want to do PvE to get rewards in GW2. Okay. You don't have to, if you're willing to do an assload of PvP to make enough money selling zkeys.


 * Devotion: Completely buyable, 8 of 8
 * Fellowship: Pets can be unlocked from Zaishen Menagerie, MOX is freebie for a 5th statue. A quick run to Gunnar's Hold and buying Deldrimor Armor Remnants'll get 10 more heroes. If you're willing to do Consulate Docks to get a run to Dajkah Inlet, that's 5 more for 20 total, otherwise 10, so 6 to 7 points out of 8.
 * Honor: Going with only PvP titles, there are enough for 5, so 11 points out of 18 there. If you wanna go for broke, 6 PvP titles, Luxon and Kurzick are PvPable (frankly easier than PvEing them), Sweets/Party/Alcohol are buyable, the 4 skill hunter titles can be done by unlocking then buying elite tomes, and lucky and unlucky are just idling on 9 Rings on the proper weekends. That's 17 statues available, pick whichever 2 you don't want to bother with. 13 points out of 18
 * Resilience: Trickier. With only runs (unless you're willing and able to get mission runs), only elite armor you can really get is Proph, which only has 6 statues available, so 4 out of 8
 * Valor: Completely buyable, 8 of 8

Overall that's 37-40 points possible without having to get beyond level 10 in PvE, if you have enough money and get some runs. Considering all the PvEers who want zkeys for the 3 points, not exactly impossible. Are you going to get 50/50? No, but then a lot of PvEers aren't getting 50/50 either. - Tanetris 17:46, 12 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Heh, I've never thought of that. I guess if one goes for only the material rewards and not the titles, the 30 points are almost completely buyable. Good point, and it might actually help some people cope with the situation. --Adul 21:53, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm 37/50 and have been pretty much a pure PvP'er the whole time I've played GW. The majority of my titles are from just doing random content in PvE without any real purpose. Most of PvE is pretty easy anyway, so it's not like it's hard to get all the rewards for the HoM.
 * I think PvP'ers are just a little upset that our gameplay amounts to about 10 points of HoM value. I, personally, couldn't care less since getting 30/50 is easy, but I can understand why they're upset. However, GW2 and GW:B are both aimed at PvE'ers and that's ok. It's where the money is, and it's understandable that they'd want to tap that market as much as possible.
 * I just don't understand how pure PvE'ers don't get bored, but I'm probably just not geared that way. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">02:34, 13 October 2010  (UTC)
 * I don't think they ever intended for people to split and be pure PvE or pure PvP. You were supposed to play PvE in order to unlock skills, weapon mods, runes and insignias for PvP. But it's the pure PvP player's fault. If you had unlocked those skills/mods/runes the PvE way, you might have a few characters with access to the HoM, and you might be sitting on easily 30 or 40 points unlocked. Like I said, it was never intended for people to pick, PvP or PvE only. But the "Hardcore, super cool, pure PvPers" screwed it up by being elitist. FleshAndFaith 18:40, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It is not really a devil's advocate section unless it attacks both sides, but Tanetris makes a good point. In fact, I gained the majority of my HoM points through Z Keys. P.S.@FleshAndFaith: you are right that PvE is the tutorial for PvP, but I doubt anyone started out in PvP – even if they did, it would be unrelated to elitism (and being elitist has nothing to do with HoM rewards). <font color="#0AA">–~=<font color="#0AA">Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png <font color="#0AA">(τѧιк)  &larr;&hearts;– 00:21, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I just mean that people can be pure PvP and never play PvE before. Just because they can doesn't mean they have, it was just an observation. And perhaps Elitist isn't the right word. Maybe I mean that they are douchebags. "Ha ha, silly PvE character, you can't be in our group even though you have all the right armor, weapons and skills, you are *Insert random excuse here*." FleshAndFaith 15:41, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * LOL Flesh, you are right, that is the attitude I speak of in its exactness, but yet they complain that it isn't fair, YET THEY CHOSE to not work PVE stuff, so this is where I figure Anet does not really care. What makes me smile about this entire situation, is that no matter how much it is explained they delude themselves into thinking they are correct and call us trolls for being right, I still got every reward and, well, if they only play PVP they got nothing. Besides, it has been LONG KNOWN (for at least 3 years) that the HoM was PVE oriented all anyone had to do was look at the monuments themselves, and if they did not spend the time to add stuff that is NOT Anets or our fault it is their own. What I would like to know is when the hall was first released (3yrs ago) why did they not THEN say something about it to anet? Rogueonion 15:48, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

i honestly can't say i've seen a single pvper say they don't want to do the pve to get pve rewards. it's not like the pve is hard, it's just boring and time consuming. most of the pvpers I knew did gw pve as well, and the well-connected ones had ins with guilds like SMS and agro, so getting urgoz/fow/etc clears was pretty effortless. the pve grind is mostly just busywork, even getting maxed drunkard is out of the question for most pvpers (not because it's too expensive, but because nobody wants to sit on their ass for 10000 minutes doing fuck all - we could hold halls if we wanted to do that). - Auron 10:36, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Having inventory open (F9) and clicking alcohol once per minute while having to mh people and blow things up is too hard! Z  encow [[Image:User_Ox_rider_Sig.png]] 10:02, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * >implying people play tombs anymore
 * o ok - Auron 11:34, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Further proves my point; the 10+ restart countdowns between matches is such a great synergy with the drunktard title! Z  encow [[Image:User_Ox_rider_Sig.png]] 20:07, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

HoM Glitch?
has anyone else noticed that u can put multiple statues of the same title up, like say.. 5 survivor statues? not sure if it was inteneded to be as such, but thought i'd post to see if it was possibly a glitch or if it's possibly been this way since day one. idk, i never messed w/my HoM much
 * It's been like that ever since they added a control for exactly what you wanted to display. -- Salome   [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 09:35, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Brilliant.
Congratulations are due Anet. This was quite the brilliant marketing tactic. The game has been more alive the past few days than it was since before the shadowform nerf. The economy has seen a gigantic boost, demands for minipets, hero armor, and of course, weapons, has put Kamadan back into a position of having 6-7 districts day and night. Very little effort, Massive payoff. Well done Anet. -- Master   Briar   22:14, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * What's "Billiant" mean? 67.149.248.3 23:03, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * As annoyed as I was and still is about the HoM rewards, I'm back to doing WiK quests and bounties in HM, and for some reason it more fun. Strange eh? --<font color ="#8b0701">Lania  [[Image:User Lania Elderfire pinkribbon.jpg]]23:31, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It means I have a speech impediment. DONT JUDGE ME MONKEY! -- Master   Briar  User Briar Sig 2.jpg 23:41, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

What's "Billiant" mean?.... What's?--Batousai 23:41, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I dooh not have a fpeetsh impediment!  Koda  [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_UT.jpeg‎|19px]]  Kumi  17:42, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think this was a case of "little effort." [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 01:28, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It was, relatively. I imagine they spent at most a week thinking out what are reasonable weapons/armors/etc to award, then developing the interface to the gw1 database to access your trophies and calculate your corresponding rewards (which they will likely use for the actual import to gw2 anyways).  That, compared to weeks/months developing actual new content for gw1, which has historically only brought back a moderate amount of activity for a week or two at most. MAFARAXAS 02:07, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I also give Anet favorpoints for this addition. Really nice =) -- Cyan [[Image:User Cyan Light sig.jpg|19px]] 11:05, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * to clarify, I'm just saying it was a smart marketing move. no comment on the actual content. MAFARAXAS 17:18, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Disgusting
I find myself rewarded most for the one night I was very bored and decided to run Glint's Challenge 10 times. My 7-month Legendary Defender of Ascalon is worth as much as running The Deep drunk once. 1/10 of my fame is worth 1/10 of a 1/50; yet the rest of the 9/10 of fame is worth nothing. Rewarding dedicated players my ass. They told us to fill up the Hall of Monuments, and I did, but all the challenging titles, both pvp and pve, are eclipsed by having hero armor. --70.90.155.138 05:05, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

What a Freaking QQ fest.
They didn't have to give us ANYTHING people. Quit your QQ and go work your titles jeez. Rogueonion 05:29, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Titles are too hard though! -- S ilven User Silven sig.jpg 06:38, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Rogue I think everyone takes your point. You feel in some way hard done by the PvP community and due to that you think that they in some way deserve less rewards. Further to that you also seem to think that wanting rewarded up to 50 points is in some way excluding for other players who haven't reached that point. You have however still to suggest a reasoned explanation for the HoM calculator being as it is or why it's okay to discriminate against top tier players and PvP'ers. Instead of saying everyone here is QQ'ing how about you engage in the discussion and see that their are two sides to this discussion and that the elitism of the player base, shouldn't be coming into play with anets design choices. -- Salome   [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 09:31, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Titles are not accomplishments. They are caps on a meter that displays how much time you have wasted with grinding, and somehow people think those translate to skill. So Anet goes with it and rewards people for quantity instead of quality (as they usually do). Why could they not give those nice titles for things that are really a feat to fulfill, such as beating Hell's Precipice with a team of 4, or going though Arachni's Haunt without any elite skill in your party? That is hard, not grinding Incorrigible Ale-Hound or Savior of the Suxons/Kurdicks.  Koda  [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_UT.jpeg‎|19px]]  Kumi  11:17, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't believe they have the means to measure arbitrary accomplishments like that, Koda. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 13:20, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd love if people actually tried to bring up a point with their posts. PvE is less challenging than PvP. All of us know that, noone argues there. You see, you call being better than another player an achievement, and I call being persistent at something you like to do an achievement. See, we're both right! No need to be a dick about it and initiate pointless fights that will last till the end of days. --Adul 11:59, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Salome? no You are wrong, I have suggested many times that if we look at the game itself that there are MORE PVE titles than PVP or MORE "meters" for PVE than PVP. I will never play PVP because I just don't like it. I do not like it based on experience of the kinds of people who play it. Now, Koda, just because somebody does not play PVP does NOT MAKE THEM UNSKILLED. Thats like saying that because I am White... I am a racist. It is not true but you seem to think it because thats YOUR experience. It was said by somebody above how would anet measure "skill" oh wait by YOUR logic (correct me if I am wrong) thats everyone who plays PVE right? so ok lets give oh 50k people all the rewards becuase they play PVP and millions nothing because they play PVE which is MORE viable for a company to make money? douche. Adul thank you for understanding my points more clearly than I do. Back to Salome, what you and Koda are suggesting IS ELITISM at its worst. ALL I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY ABOUT THE STUPID CALCULATOR IS LOOK AT IT FROM AN OUTSIDERS PERSPECTIVE. REMOVE PVP. REMOVE PVE. LOOK AT THE ENTIRE PICTURE and you see = MORE PVE "METERS" THAN PVP. THAT IS WHY the calculator is the way it is. I stated MULTIPLE times above they should have kept is separate. I have stated it MULTIPLE times above that I think you guys got jilted WHY are you attacking me? what can you do? you all told me to adapt and get used to the bullshit over-buffed mesmer foes, well get used to the damn calculator and go work some PVE. Rogueonion 17:10, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Bear with me I am trying to remember how to reset my Indent.I will fix it in a moment. Rogueonion 17:35, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I rarely PvP. Read better. Also, nobody is attacking you. People are giving valid reasons for being displeased with this reward system. That is not a personal attack. Calling someone a douche, however, is.  Koda  [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_UT.jpeg‎|19px]]  Kumi  17:38, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You are right that doesn't belong there, it was a misspeak on my part I am not being attacked, but it is frustrating for someone to sit there and say that because somebody plays PVE they have no skill and therefore deserves nothing for their accomplishments. It's a different type of skill, and it's for sure NOT PVP but gain some perspective man, I never once said "because all you do is PVP you do not accomplish anything," I was on your side guys. still am in this case. but alas I am afraid you may just have to go do some of what you hate. they didn't fix that mesmer bs they aren't going to fix the calculator to make you happy sorry too many PVE players for that. Rogueonion 17:49, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Give it up Rogueonion :D You will never convince the PvP crowd that PvE players know anything, or that their "accomplishments" mean anything. That is the reason I don't play PvP, it brings out the worst in people. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  20:44, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * However it is slightly off-topic I have to say thats the use of caps is irritating me. You have a clear opinion, caps are not needed to make it stronger. -- Cyan [[Image:User Cyan Light sig.jpg|19px]] 21:59, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Wyn, You are correct, but the calculator proves my point for me. And CYAN I DON'T REALLY CARE.=D Rogueonion 22:04, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Here we go again...  Koda  [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_UT.jpeg‎|19px]]  Kumi  22:16, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I really enjoy it when rogueonion qqs about random crap that doesnt mean anything. Titles aren't a measure of skill. Period. There's nothing you can argue that will prove that they are a measure of skill, because that argument does not exist. No one has said that pve players are worse than pvp players, they have simply said that pvp is generally more challenging than pve. Depending on your goal and the type of pvp, this may or may not be true, but most of the time it is. 98.248.90.248 22:35, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * @Wyn: PvP brings the worst out in people because the ones being assholes 1) have too much testosterone. 2) loves to participate in a "pissing contest" and 3)can't think clearly because they have too much testosterone and is raging after a losing streak. Also it does "seem" like the vast majority of PvPers are guys, and we all know what happens when a large group of guys get together... Plus as soon as all the elitists find out that you are a girl, they instantly think you don't know how to play the game. *rolls eyes* There is a reason why I haven't PvP'ed since 2006, time was a factor, but the above reason was another huge factor.  --<font color ="#8b0701">Lania  [[Image:User Lania Elderfire pinkribbon.jpg]]22:48, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * *they instantly give you rare minipets and invite you to every group [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 22:51, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Chick gamers are hot. Rogueonion 22:52, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Wyn - PvP players already recognize PvE accomplishments. Bad players and good players exist on both sides of the fence, just like elitists do. The good PvE players are the guilds like SMS, that adapt to a new zone and conquer hardmode mallyx when everyone else is busy trying to glitch him (and failing). The good PvE players are the ones that take a wipe, change up bars to beat the zone, and go back in to flawless it. This is to distinguish from the bad players, who insist that the fault is not with themselves or with their skillbars/hero's bars, and try to do the same fail tactic with the same bad bars a hundred times until they achieve victory.
 * Guild Wars PvE is mostly about build warsing the enemies to death. Lately, particularly in terms of speed clears, it has become "break the game as much as possible," but for casual players, simply speccing against the monsters in whatever mission you plan to do is enough. The good players are the ones who wiki enemy bars (or go in, wipe, and remember what skills were used) and then craft new bars to counter that particular mission. You can change skillbars anywhere, and there are 1400 skills specifically for that reason. If you walk into Shards of Orr and get your shit rocked, you go back in with tons more condition removal (a la RC monk) and do fine. If you notice mallyx destroys enchants/hexes/stances, go back in with a defense web made of shouts and wards.
 * The whole "oh the pvpers are mean bad guys that dont give us any credit" is an old, tired argument that's honestly mostly bullshit. PvPers are more used to swapping builds between matches, and that makes them better at adapting quickly to PvE situations. When someone asks a PvPer to change a skill on his bar, the player recognizes that it isn't a personal attack on his character, just a request that he change a skill on his bar. Most of the PvE players I've run with can't make that distinction. When we suggest changing a skill, they either get all defensive and try to tell me all the ways that skill is good or they get all emotional about it. That's really the only difference between the majority of PvPers and PvErs - the PvErs sometimes aren't UAX, they don't have the entire list of skills memorized, and don't realize that they're using subpar skills and can be doing much better with a different bar. Instead of flipping their lids when someone asks them to change a skill, they should just realize that that's the entire point of being able to change skill bars in town and do it without making a big scene. Outside of that, there's no real big difference I can see in the playerbases - most are bad, some are good, some elitist, some not.
 * I would like to call your attention to the fact that I am calling most PvPers bad, because I feel if I don't make extra effort to do so you will miss the point. This really isn't about PvE vs PvP, it's about good players vs shitters. - Auron 23:12, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It's like some kind of movie billboard "The Good. The Shitters.  And introducing "The Assholes" - those who like to label you!"  That'll be $11.95 and some popcorn.  Oh yeah, it's a beautiful thing!  ^_^  203.173.150.123 23:30, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * An example of a very bad PvE player: One of the players I met was trying to do gates of madness HM, and refused to use any of the meta builds or skills. Him, as a monk was using a signet smiting prayers build which by it self is laughable, and his heroes were equally bad.  Dunkoro had two rez skills, with glimmer as an elite, Master of whispers with Spoil victor as the only good skill on the bar, and had koss with evicerate and random axe skills that made no sense... I gave him advice, didn't listen to me... another person (a guy) gave him bad advice that contradicted mine (said to take well of blood), and he listened to it. and he had to retry it 18 times before he was able to beat it. and then was telling me how his build rocked and how I was wrong because it beat gates of madness hard mode.  Oh and he has GWAMM just through sheer persistence.  It drives me nuts when people don't listen to me about better skill suggestions just because of gender, especially when the other person is so horribly bad at the game.  Another dingbat was refusing to use anything other than a searing flames ele even in areas infested with destroyers!  he doesn't believe me that destroyers are immune to burning, and tells me... see? they die!  That's because your henchies/heros are dealing all the damage you idiot!!. Him: no they aren't, I'm doing it.  *aneurysm*.  --<font color ="#8b0701">Lania  [[Image:User Lania Elderfire pinkribbon.jpg]]23:34, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * @Auron your right. @Lania I think I met the guy in GoM while I was helping a mate through there, and you also are right there are a lot of shitty players out there, the problem becomes when people assume that everyone is that shitty before they TRULY know if it is true. I say this not to argue but to point out that not everybody is that shitty, I almost always listen, but if someone asks me to replace a skill (90% of the time they never explain why they want the change) and I say "but this is why I have this," it is not to be making a scene but I am asking for clarification as to why its bad, I had someone actually try to downgrade my monk build recently and I was like that is not anywhere near as good as the one I have(and in this case I was correct as I had researched what I was doing and what I needed to support a party as monk- in this case it was an EOTN bounty zim mohns- or however its spelled) and when I said this they got all up in arms(and rage quit) before I had a chance to ask them why they wanted this change. It is all good to request a change but "because I said so" is never in my opinion a good enough reason to alter my build. Give me a good reason and I'm like hums ok. Rogueonion 00:00, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Im really too lazy to read all this but i did scan the names that have been posting in the thread. The only valuable contribution i can make is telling Rogueonion to stop failing before he reaches Briar level. He just passed Boro. -- adrin [[Image:User_Adrin_mysig.jpg|20px]] 03:33, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I love when people make anti-QQ threads by QQing, then try to use logic later in the thread to defend their position. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 03:37, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Leave me alone shard. Rogueonion 04:29, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * What in the world is it called when you troll the troll trying to troll trollers? <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">04:38, 13 October 2010  (UTC)
 * My dear KJ, it is called the internet. 98.248.90.248 05:00, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Adrin, Shard and KJ circle-jerking again. No surprise there. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.63.112.138 (talk).
 * I'm confused why jake is complaining about circle jerking. 98.248.90.248 05:08, 13 October 2010 (UTC)


 * 'nuff said. In Pve, there's a Leave Group button for pugs like Lania's. Its there to be used. Gender has nothing to do with how good you are, because i got my ass handed to me by a girl in PvP and it doesnt bother me, because i know damn well she's just nasty with a mesmer.


 * Auron's right, Lania has terrible pug experience and i just felt like posting what i thought. Now i'm going back to lurk and watch from a distance Demonic Fahrir talk 06:52, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The real reason everybody is complaining is because titles can be directly translated into skill, and people who don't have many titles don't like the fact that people who've spent more time clicking alcohol are better than them. I just don't think some people have realised how hard this game is!! Hard Mode is almost impossible, it's just stupid how intelligent and powerful the monsters are. It's a feat to vanquish a small area, let alone the title. -- S ilven User Silven sig.jpg 08:36, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah to be honest, this game is pretty hard, especially how it's very harsh on newcomers. They need to learn and practice a lot before they have a real chance at some of the more complex stuff. That, or just download a gimmick build from PvX like everyone else does. But really, don't talk about this stuff in front of the cool kids, as they like to make fun of struggling players. It just makes them happy, don't ask why. --Adul 09:28, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Every friend i have introduced to Guild Wars thought it was either too hard or takes too long to accomplish anything, so yeah the game is hard for new folks. Maybe i should'nt have made them start in Prophecies.. DemonicFahrirDesecrate_Enchantments.jpg 09:42, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe that there should be a drastic increase in skill damage to account for these high/cheap heals, this will make the game much easier and, therefore, achievable. An Example: Flare takes longer to cast then Word of healing and costs the same amount of energy and ontop of that Word of Healing heals for over 200hp! It's crazy I know!! They should improve skills like Flare to deal 150 points of damage with a 3 second recharge. This makes the game more balanced and fair, ending up in a fun environment for everybody! People will be able to play through PvE easier and have as many titles as good players do. This strategy will clearly increase the number of good players and there will be less complaining on these Wiki's. -- S ilven User Silven sig.jpg 10:00, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Lols i've seen monks at 15% hp heal themselves to 90% with Woh, and thats more then 200. Make flare like at 16 fire magic.. 70-80 damage with a recharge of 2. Owait thats fireball. Hmmm.. DemonicFahrirDesecrate_Enchantments.jpg 10:04, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It's funny watching evolution in action. 203.173.150.123 10:14, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * @Silven, I have to disagree there, the game does not need to be made any easier. Many players already feel the game is too easy for the most part, sometimes even in hard mode. What they could be doing instead is to implement a smoother learning curve for newbies, and make hero/player skills easier to see through and change, in order for new players to have an easier time adapting to various in-game challenges. --Adul 14:02, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Nope, the game is way too hard. Having to individually click people then use skills on them is very hard. Must be made easier for my simple mind to understand. -- S ilven User Silven sig.jpg 03:52, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Dammit, you really fooled me there. Well played sir, well played. --Adul 06:28, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If that's hard, then try this game... . Left click to attack with no targeting just blows ppl's minds! It's soooooo hard!. --<font color ="#8b0701">Lania  [[Image:User Lania Elderfire pinkribbon.jpg]]20:30, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

everybody angry
1) Update occurs

2) Absolutely nothing changes in-game

3) ?

4) Shitstorm! –Jette 10:19, 13 October 2010 (UTC)


 * You forget 5) Amusement for weeks while everyone debates and argues. DemonicFahrirDesecrate_Enchantments.jpg 10:22, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I enjoy that! --Adul 13:49, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * People on Guru seem happier....I guess. So, shitstorm probably isn't the word. There's just nothing else to talk about. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">14:09, 13 October 2010  (UTC)
 * I am not angry, I am amused. Rogueonion 16:20, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Defs no anger from you "ALL I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY ABOUT THE STUPID CALCULATOR IS LOOK AT IT FROM AN OUTSIDERS PERSPECTIVE. REMOVE PVP. REMOVE PVE. LOOK AT THE ENTIRE PICTURE "  your shift key got stuck is all! -- S ilven User Silven sig.jpg 04:14, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * LOL. Yet, still I am amused. Rogueonion 06:12, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

1 Update occurs

2 people rage

3 "trolls" make their own little sections about people raging

4 nothing happens

5 ? -- Venomoth  08:41, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * People on guru seem freaking excited and happy. This is the best outcome regarding the HoM from my point of view. User MadSkillz1o1 sig2.PNG Mad  Skillz  1o1  16:44, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Gamer/Skillz Title
A-Net I love your HoM Calculator but please you need to fix this. The Skillz title is mainly aquired from doing PvP related activities (costume brawl, grenth vs dwayna to name a few). This needs to be made worth a PvP statue in the HoM. Opinions on this are welcome.--Darknessguy 22:32, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Gamer title is too hard. -- S ilven User Silven sig.jpg 03:55, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Most people get it by standing afk on some circles between step-dancing gnomes, people with the newest festival mask just to be as ELITE as all the 2000 other people who just got it, and a crystal spider that covers everyone so you do not get to see those masks anyway. Because it can be done without seeing any pvp, my opinion is that it should not be treated like a pvp title (not unlike the Zaishen title).  Koda  [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_UT.jpeg‎|19px]]  Kumi  09:51, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * AFK Rings gives points to Lucky and Unlucky, never Gamer. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 13:21, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Shows what I know about titles.  Koda  [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_UT.jpeg‎|19px]]  Kumi  13:33, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I actually agree by taking the zaishen title out of the PvP category and swapping it over with this one! -62.163.189.137 14:33, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Too hard. -- S ilven User Silven sig.jpg 21:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see how this is too hard to aquire. True that you can only obtain it at certain times when festivals are on, but surely the people that did play through them deserve to get a PvP statue for them.--Darknessguy 21:41, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree this should fall under PVP, Rogueonion 21:49, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * probably n0ot entirely the right place but I will start y saying it here (and no i do not have my zaishen title at all for starters) zaishen title is pvp. You only get z keys with balth faction. You only get balth faction from pvp. You an also use tournament whotsits. SInce the only way to get those also is pvp, and proior to this by betting on a pvp match, zaishen is a pvp title. That you can buy keys from other players is essentially immaterial..its too lat eto make em non tradeable, and plenty of people got their z rank without buying a single key. I'll say it one more time: The only way a z-key comes into being is by someone somehwere playing pvp. If they sell it afterwards, I guess thats up to them, but the Z title is pvp, and that is astoundingly obvious.92.234.17.7
 * 0/10 troll - Auron 11:15, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Jessie Llam pwns you.  Koda  [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_UT.jpeg‎|19px]]  Kumi  11:55, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * For all it is worth Mr. Ip ... you are wrong. You can buy all the zaishen keys you like with rewards from zaishen PvE missions. --<span style=”font-family:Verdana;color:#3FF">Manassas  [[File: User Manassas Mannysig.png]] 12:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't necessarily want to call 92.234.17.7 a troll, he might just not know about the loophole ANet deliberately created for PvE-players! Anyway, that's the whole point, some paragraphs above this section, someone wanted to play Devil's Advocate by saying you can get quite a lot of HoM calculator points by doing PvP only! It will be extremely hard for any top ace PvP player to do so, and it's almost completely dependent on several changeable factors (like prizes on z-keys, weapons, minis, materials, etc.), but still you could get up to 37-40 pts. according to Tanetris! Now, just compare this to the fun fact that you can get absolutely all 50/50 points by doing absolutely no PvP at all, mainly because of that loophole ANet created, to cater the PvE players! You're not even dependable on the before-mentioned economy-systems (of which we as PvP-ers are, and are highly changeable as well: just for instance have a look at the mini and several material prizes at this very moment)!!! It's just comparing what's fair and what's not! It's not too hard to see ANet, please do something about it (I know it's probably to deaf ears, you can't blame me for trying though!) -62.163.189.137 13:27, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I am neither for or against the Zashien Title being a PvP Title, however I feel that as the Z-title is a PvP statue then the gamer title should also be considered as such. --Darknessguy 15:51, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * @-62.163.189.137 You/PVP players have had THREE years to work your PVE titles, not my fault you did not do so. The HoM was NEVER NOT PVE oriented. Anyone with eyes and a moderate ability to read knows this, why QQ about it now? go work your PVE titles so you can get something. Go put in the work the rest of us had to put in. Rogueonion 16:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You're right, that's exactly what I'm doing already! I should rephrase my request to ANet: please give us PvP-ers some GW2 rewards as well: like a PvP-only title or emote or mini or whatever. Forget about the HoM rewards, actually: remove the PvP statue as a whole to make the HoM rewards completely PvE (while you on it, you can remove the loophole of gaining balth. faction via PvE in GW1 as well), but give the PvP-ers a whole different reward system. And please anounce it asap! That way, we can in our turn say to those PvE-ers that think it's unfair: You/PvE players have had FIVE years to work your PvP titles, not my fault you did not do so. Why QQ about it now? go work your PvP titles so you can get something. Go put in the work the rest of us had to put in -62.163.189.137 16:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)!
 * LOL Or you can throw a Hissy-Fit that works for a laugh thanks. But, that is too bad that none of that is most likely viable. You have made an error in judgement there, I do not care one whit about crappy PVP titles, they only are an indication of ego, to bring you back into focus, PVP titles still are not an indication of skill, all that a PVP title indicates is ego, its only a meter in a game and really, IRL, it means NOTHING. So now you become a "hardcore" internet bully with a good serving of egomania instilled because OMG you got a PVP meter filled to whatever rank. Hums, methinks whomever above said that "PVP brings out the worst in people" was right, as you just brought out the worst in me just from the attitude you displayed in that little temper tantrum. I hope you have a very nice day. Rogueonion 16:56, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Shut the fuck up, this is just another bullshit "PvE vs PvP" discussion. - Mini Me  17:27, 15 October, 2010 (UTC)
 * Anybody with half a brain can easily see PvE is way better then PvP for these simple reasons. PvE Hard Mode is too hard, so it provides a challenge for all us good players, even though it's impossible to win. PvE has PvE only skills, which should be allowed to be used in PvP to make it more fair, and the game is too hard without them. PvE has HoM, which is so awesome my home page is actually the GW2 HoM calculator, I usually leave my characters in EotN so when I wake up I can instantly sprint to my computer and load up all my precious statues and priceless minis. PvP skills are always too weak to kill anything and people always use the so called 'cheating skills' which have no purpose but to annoy you, such as D-shot and Bulls. Knock-downs and interupts are just ways of playing to annoy, they don't do anything else, so PvP ends up being no fun. So my real question is, why would anybody care about PvP in the first place? it's so much worse then PvE, I don't like to brag but I'm in [KISS] and it's easily the best guild there is, way better then any of those PvP guilds. Why? because we make Guild Wars easier, with insanely large numbers how can we lose?-- S ilven User Silven sig.jpg 18:32, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * LOL thats just stupid. IMO. Rogueonion 18:55, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I can't decide if silven is a master troll, or if everyone on gww is just stupid. 98.248.90.248 22:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I like to think a bit of both, my favourite thing to do is hold down the colen key when people dont reset indents!!! -- S ilven User Silven sig.jpg 00:17, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Sup, the easier way to do it is copy the colons of the person above you and add one more. MATHEMATICAL INDUCTION AT WORK! MAFARAXAS 03:29, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Th'fuck ever happend to banning trolls? -- Briar    The Spider  07:31, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Pink Dye!
Oh thank goodness! -_- Tong2 19:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Yay. Rogueonion 19:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Or not! ^__^ -- User Oneshot O.JPG ne shot.   19:46, 15 October 2010.
 * Looks like the pink dye vendor had a grudge against the Keep Guard. Tong2 19:47, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * must have committed cartoon murder and then left in a hurry, Rogueonion 19:49, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok - I'm putting out an All Points Bulletin - we're looking for a Krytan male - average height - penchant for pink and ........ moider. Tong2 20:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * LOL> Rogueonion 20:07, 15 October 2010 (UTC)