User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Underpowered Skills/Assassin/Archive 2

I figured to bring this topic back up, since it still doesn't seem to provide the benifit needed to qualify as an elite unblockable modifier.

It seems as far as an unblockable modifier go, that it isn't really stable when it can not only be removed by stripping, but also by any number of miss causing hexes or blind, leaving it wide open to three sources of shutdown. This seems fairly ineffective compared to other unblockable modifiers, since simple hexes and enchantments only have 1 removal possibility and do not cost a character their single elite skill. Probably its only redeeming value is that it offers an offensive mod in Assassins offensive supporting attribute, rather than their additional effect or survival attribute.

I think Expose Defense is a fairly reasonable option since it offers an unblockable modifier in hex form, which is more useful with powerful hex primed attacks, but less useful among shortlived and switched targets, as well as allocated in an attribute besides the 3 more neccessary attributes needed to provide those attacks and basic survival.

Way of the Fox is also somewhat ineffective so using it as a comparison is not reasonable.

Since this Elite Enchantment has been counter developed with an inclusive setback, I suggest some functionality changes be made in order to make it more viable. Since it is an Assassin skill, it isn't particularly useful as a duration advantage unblockable modifier enchantment. This is simple because Assassins are not designed to unleash attacks for 20 seconds reoccuring, and as a Critical Strikes skill, it doesn't have any validity with secondary profession use.

The fix is rather simple, reduce the overal interval that this skill operates on. By reducing the casting time to 1/2 or more reasonably 1/4, it becomes a better preperation skill for Assassins brief and stacked attack intervals, since it can be activated precisely when needed. As well, the Duration and Recharge can be reduced to 5-10(12) seconds (hereto refered to as 10 seconds), this is probably the most redeeming feature. Because the recharge is half as long as before, when the skill gets countered by the many counter options, it is not a 20 second loss, it is a 10 second loss, which effectively halfs the damage done. And lastly reduce the energy cost to 5 energy, because it offers half the duration of effect, and has to be recast repeatedly for continued use, having a lower cost is a neccessity for the change.

With half the recharge, the skills risk and failure are greatly reduced, because of the reduced cost and cast time, short repeated use does not increase its cost and difficulty, and to keep it from being a totally benificial improvement, the duration is cut in half that way it cannot be sustained for long periods of time, which are not really useful anyway.

This gives it enough advantage to be an elite unblockable modifier. The value of having something from the natural attack attributes, the advantage of having a quicker activation than Expose Defense, and an equal activation time to Way of the Fox, the advantage of unlimited attacks during the duration, as well as target switching functionality, cheap cost, and seemless repeated use all add up to significant advantages for this skills elite status.

If for some reason this is too effective, the best reduction to make is to keep the duration at 5-10(12) seconds, but increase the recharge time to 15 seconds. This is just enough to ensure that it can not be used continously, and isn't quite as quick to be replaced if disabled, but still offers unblockability for a useful period of time.--BahamutKaiser 04:32, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * My suggestions: 5 energy, add 1/4 sec cast, remove miss clause. In that order of desire, surely you can agree that 5 energy is reasonable? :) &mdash; Skuld 15:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Wait, you want a 5e 1/4 sec Warrior's Cunning that you can maintain 24/7? That's not a very good idea. --Tankity Tank 00:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If your comparing an elite skill to a normal skill from another profession with totally different needs and highly divergent function as a rational conclusion, your mistaken. Recognizing the difference in skill status and profession uniqueness alone makes a comparison between Fox Fang and Warriors Cunning completly inaccurate.  And even a comparison between Assassin Elite skills and Assassin non-elite skills, in alternate attributes, requires a sense of recognition for the differences, trying to cross analize another skill without cross analizing and explaining the factors of Elite Status, additional profession needs, and extreme difference between an unremovable skill and an enchantment with additional failure triggers makes this grossly innaccurate choke a joke.  Please.........--BahamutKaiser 02:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Just give this skill a 1/2 cast time and that should be fine. 68.20.222.240 00:00, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

One of the odder skills available in the game, an expensive, cumbersome enchantment that reduces the casting time and recharge of all half ranged spells. Firstly this needs a decent investment in critical strikes to work effectively, reducing your attribute point pool. Secondly there are only 10 half ranged spells in the game itself, 6 of which are in the assassin profession. With that previous note it brings up the fact that this skill is overshadowed by deadly paradox in every way which provides an unchanging 50% casting time and recharge for all assassin skills. The only time this skill has seen any use was when it was bugged at 50% and any profession was able to use it. I am unable to think of anything great for this skill but will still give a suggestion, actually. Change it to "For 10...35 seconds, spells cast 5...50% faster and recharge/strike for 1...10% faster/more damage." (this is using a 1...15 attribute scale) perhaps? I doubt there can be any great changes made to this without throwing the balance out of order but I'd be nice to see this skill altered a bit, because it is simply untouchable as of now. Mi Nd L e Ss 04:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "Enchantment Spell. For 5...15...17 seconds, half-ranged spells cast 5...41...50% faster and recharge 5...41...50% faster. Every time that you cast a half-ranged spell, you gain 1...3...4 energy."
 * It might be useful for half range skills then, even though like you said, there isn't many of them. --Deathwing 06:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 1..3..4 energy would be way too much. I'd be very happy with 0..2E, or even a fix 1E. And this skill doesn't lack much to be honest, a small energy gain would make it very interesting for Deadly Arts. I think the big problem is actually Deadly Paradox. This skill shouldn't exist. It screws up the WHOLE balance of Assassin utility, because when you want to make anything viable you have to think 'what of Deadly Paradox?' the same way for nearly all other spells you have to think 'What of Mantra of Recovery?'. But it's even worse for Deadly Paradox and Assassin utility because it works on EVERYTHING, including signets. Most of them would be balanced with half cast/recharge WITHOUT Deadly Paradox. Deadly Paradox was a sad way of 'fixing' Assassin utility by making it very good with DP, but unusable without, and DP having a very bad synergy with attack skills makes the whole thing rather messy to balance. Deadly Haste giving 0..2E, or fixed 1E, when you use an half-range spell + getting rid of DParadox (just nerf it to oblivion if need be, like put it on a 30s recharge and 10E cost) while buffing Assassin utility properly would be so much better. Patccmoi 15:24, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The latest stats on skills used in championhip play shows that Deadly Paradox is not part of top tier play at all. Of course that doesn't mean it isn't a good skill, but I think it shows it isn't overpowered. I personally feel it is fine the way it is, despite the fact that some skills have longer recharges because of it. Some of those skills might be too strong if they naturally cast/recharged 50% faster because they'd then work with Dagger combos with no penalty. For instance, I don't think it would be wise to make Dancing Daggers a 5e/.5c/2.5r skill so that Dagger-chain spike Assassins can have it as a potent option when Blinded or blocked.


 * As for Deadly Haste, it is indeed overshadowed by DP. It is in a bad attribute line which makes scaling it undesireable. But the main thing is, as pointed out above, there are few uses for it since there are few half-range skills (and no more are coming now that GW2 is being made). Still, DH has two benefits which make it worth considering... as an enchant you don't use your stance slot and it doesn't interfere with attack skills. If it weren't for Feigned Neutrality's synergy with DP, I'd likely have more uses for it. I'd like to see it scale better at the mid end, and also it can be made into a cheap, spammable enchant to add to its appeal. It would change from this:
 * (current)
 * Enchantment Spell. For 10...30...35 seconds, half-ranged spells cast 5...41...50% faster and recharge 5...41...50% faster. 10e/1c/20r


 * (revised)
 * Enchantment Spell. For 10...30...35 seconds, half-ranged spells cast 18...44...50% faster and recharge 18...44...50% faster. 5e/.25c/5r


 * I think those changes would be enough, but what it really needs is more half-range spells. --arredondo 17:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * And how about making it actually USEFUL rather than just tweaking numbers? Imo at the very least this should be:
 * Enchantment Spell. For 10...30...35 seconds, half-ranged spells, signets and stances cast 18...44...50% faster and recharge 18...44...50% faster. 5e/.25c/20r
 * This and nerf Paradox to 30r(and make it a skill instead of stance). In case this change is overpowered(which I really doubt), you can make it work only on sin skills.
 * PS. Of course stances would be only affected by recharge buff. 84.40.188.84 06:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)HTS
 * I came here right now literally to suggest that DH be allowed to work with stances. That would be an amazing buff and with it in CS, only Assassins can use it. I'd be happy with the rest of your buff too, by including sigs as well. This really would help the skill a lot (plus a 5E cost please)--arredondo 15:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Then we would see sin signet builds maybe (they would have less casttime and reload for signets then a mesmer with fastcast and mantra of inscription)152.96.200.163 15:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Change to Off-Hand Attack. Must follow a lead Attack. Ashesfalldown 11/17/07

Its not under powered, it would SUCK if it turned to an off hand, the way it is now makes it a great skill Why? 1. Its a melee attack and so you can go Off hand, Dual Malicious or, Lead malicious Offhand You can use malicious anywhere! Its great for when you need to use a critical hit etc. Making it an Off-hand UNDER powers it IMO --Ensoriki 00:38, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Needs a buff. Maybe add a kd or remove aftercast. The second looks more balanced to me. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 16:18, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

As pointed out in a recent guru thread, the non-elite Golden Phoenix Strike is better as it allows you to bring AoD. &mdash; Skuld 17:19, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I think this would be awesome with a lower recharge, like 4-5 seconds. - HeWhoIsPale 03:20, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Change this skill back to what it use to be.68.20.210.18 15:32, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * That's no way to change his mind. I, too, believe that this skill should go back to the way it was. But it was also clearly overpowered. I think that the progression should be 1...8...11, in a 0...12...15 progression. This is replicated using the equation X * .7. This way, it skill costs 10 energy, but doesn't provide more power for a energy intensive chain. Also, switching it's damage with Horn of the Ox's would be a decent buff/nerf too.
 * It's not right to just nerf good skills. He should also have buffed some other skills, and theres a long list of skills that need to be buffed. Hell, some skills on the underpowered section aren't even that underpowered, just underused because theres too many people that goes online and finds a cookie cutter build. It maybe easier to nerf 1 skill instead of buffing a lot of other skills but it really sucks for others who aren't using some build they find on the internet because they don't know how to make a good build. 01:47, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill was broken the moment you could pair it with black spider's strike, as it provided the power to an altogether overpowered build, it deserved its nerf and this shall remain. --Ckal Ktak 16:26, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Skills are overpowered in a certain build that uses it well. Way Empty Palm is overpowered, Siphon speed is overpowered, distracting shot is overpowered, magebane shot is overpowered, purifying veil is overpowered, irresistible sweep is overpowered. They are all overpowered because all except the ranger skills are underused. Once a person decides "hey lets make a build a put it on to wiki" It gets nerfed, completely. Prokiller88 16:28, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

previous discussion
 * underpowered because:
 * too slow activation, bonus effect not worth using
 * suggestions:
 * 5e .5s 8r with either 1...4s daze if you interrupt a spell OR 20 sec disable if you interrupt a spell
 * add bonus damage (less supported change)

What if it disabled all opponents skills for 1..3 seconds if it interrupted? Seems like it would add a bit more finesse to playing the assassin when it comes to timing and stuff.76.202.60.201 07:10, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * might be a little too powerful, but I like that idea, maybe balance it out a bit and make it a bit more fun, randomly disable a random number of opponents skills for 1-3 seconds, after all, different people different situation, etc react differently to surprises, etc. Dargon 09:44, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I would say it should be given a 1/2s attack time, but really, all lead and lead following off-hands do. What it really needs is a longer disable, or a lower recharge, 10 for 10 is a bit weak, it offers no damage and no spamming to help revolve other attack skills, it should at least have a 15 or 20 second disable, or reduce the recharge to 6 or 7 seconds.--BahamutKaiser 23:03, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

has become a crappy skill, assassin average damage is 6-15 (average), added on top of horn's damage at 13/14 Dagger mastery = to a whopping 16-25 damage per hit = 36-50 damage, Izzy either add a condition or something that boosts its damage. or revert it.

The problem is not horns of the ox, it is Night fall skills and IAS's. Get IAS's out of the sin's hands in 1 swift reach (flurrys okay, is common belief) and Buff factions skills. Do not buff nightfall skills any more for a couple months.--Ensoriki 04:17, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

/signed for revert. 40% of my (non SP-chain) builds used this, BLS already made the SP-sin trash(I dont mind though), but nerfing HotO was pointless... --J0ttem™ 08:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * With BLS dead, they were worried about AoD, GPS, HotH, Falling Lotus strike, Blades of steel, impale being the new SP. The only reason you never saw this before was because the SP bar was slightly better. --Ckal Ktak 11:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Ckal, you mean AoD 'sins? Like the kind that is vetted as Great on PvX, like the kind that was already run, and the kind that is now even deader than SP? Yeah, you're not the first there, Jack, they've been around for a good long time and you sound like an arrogant cock when you say people haven't seen the build possibility before. There's not much room in GvG for a build that needs six skills used back-to-back without interruption to have a minor chance at killing something when a Warrior can it much better with four. --71.208.133.30 09:11, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

This skill was over nerfed. Increase the damage to +10..22..25. This skill is useful, and AoD is pretty strong but it should stay like that just like Shock Axe, Dev Hammer Warriors and Crip shot Rangers and a bunch of other builds that are used in gvg alot.68.20.210.18 15:35, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The nerf on this was well deserved and very much needed. This is such an easy condition to meet and the way the sin combo skipping works it is not hard to repeatedly knockdown your opponent. Knockdowns are one of the most annoying things in GW and this skill is able to be chained non stop with Moebius Strike. The knockdown is and always will be the reason this skill is used. Add the person must be moving to knock them down and revert the damage change and it would be fine, much worse than it currently is but not OP. It's fine as is. Anon
 * So, after a few moebius strikes you tend to run out of energy, and also after about 2 horns your monk notices or you would run into a ally and kill the other guy. Thats called being tactical.Prokiller88 23:50, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill is the pinnacle of how mentally active assassins should be to play. There's nothing wrong with it, you're just bad. Also, people might take you more seriously if you actually knew what average dagger damage is. 72.235.48.41 12:10, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Call me what you want, Horns always was a cheap shot in spike comboes because it removes the ability to perform an emergency counter move against the combo when you're the one being spiked. It still works like that, dealing 40 less damage overall hasn't really removed its teeth, it's not like they made the knockdown more conditonal (nearby radius?) is it? --Ckal Ktak 12:36, 13 December 2007 (UTC)



This skill is the pinnacle of how mentally active assassins should be to play Nerf doesn't make an assassin more mentally active, what sillyness. SP sin was/is silly, because you shadow step, and snare, while allowing an IAS, You give an Assassin an IAS, they can roll their head across a keyboard as long as they want >.> they were worried about AoD, GPS, HotH, Falling Lotus strike, Blades of steel, impale If thats so, there are ways they can cause that to weaken without touching horns. They could of nerfed GpS,fls or impale, each would've been less problematic, and less warrant for complaints.--Ensoriki 18:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
 * AoD GPS Hoth Fls Bos Impale, is much better then the old sp bar. You can escape much better but its also weaker in the sense that you have to really time shadow step and the first 2 attacks. Prokiller88 05:56, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

This skill has so much potential that I want to cry when I look at the brain-dead way its implemented. This is how the skill works: the damage listed in the description is untyped, but affected by armor. This damage replaces your base dagger damage, and is affected by your dagger mastery and inscription bonuses, but not the customization bonus. You can also crit, which means that you get two numbers when you use this skill, one for a crit and one for non-crit. In practice this does harsh damage to 60 AL targets, but completely falls apart once you start going higher. Since almost no one is at 60 AL these days the skill starts to look less and less attractive. This skill should just add +5...41...53 damage. In terms of raw damage it's not overpowered compared to death blossom at +47 on a 2s recharge, and the cost and elite status justifies the other perks. As it stands the skill is only viable in ridiculous gimmicks involving bad skills like shadowy burden and weaken armor so you can abuse the high base damage. --Symbol 22:25, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Something like the extra dmg you deal would be like: 10...30, and when you hit with an attack, your target loses an enchantment and you deal an addition 5...20 damage. InfestedHydralisk  [[image:Shadow_Prison.jpg|19px]] 22:31, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * (Edit conflict) I've used this effectively in GvG and had it used effectively on me, in both cases without a shadowy burden or other armor-weakening skill in sight. You kinda gloss over the fact that it's unblockable and strips an enchantment.  That's plenty strong enough imo, particularly with cracked armor just around the corner.  Errr 22:40, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The "unblockable" part of this skill has very limited benefits to the skill itself. For example, your initial attack chain would have to hit, and even if they did, the target may have taken the chance to blind you already. &mdash; Rapta (talk|contribs) 06:44, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with the implementation being kinda stupid. However, with GW:EN coming up and Cracked Armor, i don't know how much i care anymore. If you can use it with Cracked Armor on people, it actually becomes stronger than +5..53 damage overall. I think i'd still rather see it 'fixed', but it'll at least be a bit better. In some cases though it might be too strong too, like with JI and Sundering Daggers on a 60AL foe you can crit this for higher than BoS Patccmoi 16:13, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh! I missed the unblockable part, this skill aint bad InfestedHydralisk  [[image:Shadow_Prison.jpg|19px]] 01:40, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You do not say a skill is underpowered until you truly understand how it works. First, it's 2 hits and removes 2 enchantments.  Next, the enchantment remove triggers before damage, therefore it removes things like  and  before it land the hit and do damage.  And lastly, it's unblockable. Lightblade 04:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Ummm how is this underpowered? We had a 2 rit team and took on a sin with this and shadowy burden. In 4 hits the other rit was down to about 50ish health (Black=70 Shattering= 127x2 impale =80 = 260+150= 410.) Granted he had low health but this is deffinately not underpowered.
 * This really should be treated more like a bug than an underpowered skill. The +damage functions in no way like any other +damage attack in the game. -Warskull 18:34, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That's because it is not a +damage skill. It says it "deals" that much damage, not adds. Also, it's a dual attack. You guys are looking at 100 unblockable damage and dual enchantment removal. Why is this in the underpowered section? Shard 22:04, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Compared to Death Blossom that will do over 100 damage to the main target, 90some of that being armor ignoring, and will also deal damage to everything around the target. DB also has half the energy cost and half the recharge, and isn't elite. --Deathwing 22:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I use this skill qith greater effectiveness than shadow prison in allaince battles, no-one expects enchantment removal there. MMs, bonders, stoneflesh tanks all run at the sight of me. and I need only three attack skills in my bar with shadowy bburden thanks to the favourable recharge on this skill. --Ckal Ktak 10:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd wait with buffing this skill untill Cracked Armour is out. Once that's been added to the game, the (strange) base damage thing might be an advantage of the skill, instead of a disadvantage. I'd wait with buffing physical classes till that conditions been playtested thoroughly. Otherwise, you might buff a skill only to nerf it again once GW:ENs outta the doors. Akirai Annuvil 18:02, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Cracked Armor will not help this skill, it can only lower armor to 60. At 60 armor, a character will take full damage, so this will not do over the stated damage due to CA. --Deathwing 18:08, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that this skill is not underpowered, dual attack, dual enchantment removal, unblockable and high reuse time. Death Blossom provides good damage, but good damage can be replecated with many skills, enchantment removal requires specific skills, and the double effect is very powerful.  The status of chosen lead attacks is not entirely relavent, because we have skills like Golden Fox Strike and Wild Strike which are also unblockable, and will even get in a stance break at the same time, or abilities like Foxes Promise, Expose Defense and any good hex triggered off hand, if the first example is used, stance removal and dual enchantment removal can be revolved every 4 seconds continously with an enchantment as it's only stipulation if indeed blocking is a concern.  The fact that there are available counters to this is balanced, and counting blind and miss based hexes as a reason it can fail is only natural, not some sort of unreasonable feature.  And not doing over the amount of listed damage, are you kidding?  It does enough.--BahamutKaiser 15:06, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Its more of the fact that it does base damage instead of bonus damage.--Atlas Oranos 16:25, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think SA is fine, however the damage calculation needs to be changed, the current one is very weird --J0ttem™ 08:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm have no idea why they did the damage like that, but if they do have the opportunity, it would benifit from the change.--BahamutKaiser 13:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Just make the damage armor ignoring damage. Perfectly viable then. Making this skill affected by armor almost completely kills its effectiveness. --(Problem. 01:39, 20 September 2007 (UTC))
 * Yup. Make the damage +bonus damage. The limiter of this skill is the 10 energy cost, after all. You will run it with Golden Fox Strike - Wild Strike - Shattering Assault - 3 unblockable attacks, destroying 1 stance and 2 enchantments. You also need an enchantment up for GFS to be unblockable. Already 4 skills used up. And while your dual attack kills enchantments and is elite, it sucks hard in the damage department. I think 10 energy is already limiting enough, plus you need a quite fixed chain of unblockable attacks so that you can use this dual attack at all. --Longasc 10:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Now that Wild Strike is unblockable, the only advantage this skill has on it is .5 sec activation. Does less damage, and doesn't remove stances. At least put its +damage equal to Wild Strike. Ayumbhara 17:56, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe somehow integrate the "Fangs" into the skill. So far, Golden Fang Strike, Twisting Fangs, and Shadow Fang all cause Deep Wound.  Perhaps Fox Fangs could somehow cause it as well ('Cept it couldn't be auto or when enchanted, that would make Fox Fangs better than Golden Fang Strike.) ‽-(eronth)  I gi  ve up  19:43, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Interesting idea. Could be 'this attack deals +5..20d and can't be blocked, if it scores a critical hit target suffers from DW'. 5/.5/6 Patccmoi 20:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * oo. Sounds fun. ‽-(eronth)  I gi  ve up  22:07, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Oo Very Fun, and a deep wound for dagger mastery specs... not 100% reliable, but nice.--Midnight08 23:35, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A short-duration Deep Wound if you critical would be awesome... or even just another effect if you critical with it. Extra energy gain if you critical, etcetera... I think that's a really nice way to give the skill a sweet buff, without making it overpowered. I mean, Assassins have that huge critical chance for more then just the Critical Strikes attribute, right? -- Jioruji Derako.> 03:14, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * More skills need something like +x event if you land a critical. Critical chances need to stack properly (atm, I hear it stacks multiplicively rather than additionally or give skills that can use the multiplicative stacking.) and there could be more hexes that trigger on crit hit.  It would be fun to have something like; "Critical Hex.  Foe is hexed for x seconds.  When hex ends, foe takes x dmg for each critical strike the foe suffered from while hexed with Critical hex.  Foe takes x damage."  "Criticaly Steady.  Enchantment spell.  You are enchanted with Critically Steady for x seconds.  Each time you land a critical hit while enchanted with this, your stances last x% longer."  There's plenty of stuff out there giving us critical hit chances (or even guarenteed hits, as in the case of Critical Strike) but the skills aren't always used so much because the bonus isn't always worth it. Sure its e-managment, but I could get rid of 2 crit bonus skills in favor of one decent e-manage skill. This really isn't the place for this, so I'll prolly remove this comment and move it elsware later.  ‽-(eronth)  I gi  ve up  15:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I prefer dependable Deep Wounds... instead the idea would work better if it was always an unblockable Deep Wound, but if you Crit you do +5..20d. That way you have the same damage, but if you don't get the crit it still hurts. --arredondo 21:37, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

All in all, I think the best option is simply a shorter recharge and damage boost. Make it nearly identical to Wild Strike, but where Wild has stance-removal, FF simply has better, faster damage. Nine Tail Strike could use a recharge buff as well, while you're at it; as it is now, everyone passes up the unblockable effect for weaker duals with faster recharges. -- Jioruji Derako.> 00:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree on this, the long recharge makes it a bad off-hand, especially since it otherwise is nothing special. --CJNyfalt 08:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

If I had the power to do changes, I'd Firstly rename Wild Strike to Wild Fox Strike, I'd then change the name of this to something different, Mostly thinking of "Malicous Fangs" where if you hit someone suffering from a condition, you inflict a deep wound (5/8 Would be fine for that, no need for a 1/2 cast). I'd probably buff Nine Tail Strike to a 4 second recharge and give it some added flavour. All Wishful thinking of course, but then it would be nice to see changes like that. --Ckal Ktak 15:00, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You wouldn't need to change Wild Strike's name, since all "wild" attacks are now unblockable. Thus, wild = unblockable. --68.106.223.233 23:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That's purely so you could have the unblockable "Fox" chain all at 5/4 stats. --Ckal Ktak 09:44, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the solution is simple, swap recharge times with Wild Strike. Since it breaks a stance, and is unblockable, and does good damage, easy nerf, increase the recast on Wild Strike and it will still be a good stance removal, and in exchange, Fox Fang will deal good damage, and be unblockable, and be quick.  Golden Fox Strike is already a 4 second attack, make Fox Fang and Nine Tails 4 second attacks and you have a powerful unblockable thrashing combo for Assassin.  All other Wild Attacks have an 8 second recharge, except wild throw which is 7 adrenaline (and much less available), so it only makes sense that this now unblockable stance break skill is increased to 8 second recharge and Fox Fang, which is already a lack luster skill can join a series of fox skills which offer fast unblockable damage regularly.--BahamutKaiser 01:03, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * HECK NO! We need a utility skill like wild strike badly. Leave wild strike alone where it is, and make this skill up to par by decreasing recharge to 4.
 * But then it's still not up to par. Less damage and no utility besides damage compression, but theres few leads to really compress it with. --Deathwing 18:33, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Damage compression + unblockable is enough utility with a 4-6s recharge. --Symbol 19:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It doesn't take a genious to recognize that a skill with a higher recharge, lower damage, and lack of stance break in comparison is broken, and since the stance break is a serious advantage and utility, th least that can be done is switch the recharge times so the skill with added damage and stance break isn't as quick. A more subtle solution would be to bring Fox Fang to a 4s recharge, give it higher damage, and bring Wild Strike to a 6s recharge, and lower damage.  There really isn't any room to dispute, it is completely broken for fox fang to have absolutly no value or advantage compared to Wild Strike, the added utility of the spell should naturally bring the skill to 8s rechage, and if it didn't require a lead, I couldn't justify anything less.  It was 4 seconds before yet it wasn't unblockable, obviously since the skill was improved it should be balanced accordingly, especially in light of competing skills.--BahamutKaiser 05:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

What about if we make this skill like Jungle Strike: Off-Hand Attack.
 * Fox Fangs Must follow a lead attack. Fox Fangs cannot be blocked and strikes for +5...25...30 damage if it hits. If this attack hits a XXX'ed (enchanted, bleeding, poisoned, etc.) foe, this attack does +XX...XX...XX more damage. (Wisteria 08:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC))
 * Technically, the name suggests it would do deep wound instead of more damage. I like Bahamut's idea the most though. There is no reason to use anything other then Wild Strike unless you're using the cripple chain with Jungle. =\ Wild Strike outclasses everything. RitualDoll 03:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * .5 rules. skill is ok.

Underpowered because:
 * Assassins are very spike-able. A mere +60 damage does not justify a melee in caster armor with less than full health going to the frontline whacking things up.

Suggestions:
 * Make this skill cause deepwound/weakness/cripple/bleeding with 25% chance each
 * If self is below 90% this attack also deals +90 damage (to make this similar to unsuspecting)
 * Make it recharge in 4 seconds.

Discussion:
 * A bit strong, but a buff would be nice. The last two suggestions would be a nice buff overall. --arredondo 21:39, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I hate skills that rely on factors that you have little control over. --68.106.221.5 21:43, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You could always control it, it's just that it isn't worth it right now. Go in as an AsNe and Blood of the Aggressor or Dark Pact, which will sacrifice faster (and deliver more damage) under Awaken the Blood. Blood Bond is another skill that works well to meet the condition currently. DS just needs to do more damage at minimum (the 4s recharge would be nice too).--arredondo 00:48, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, like you said, it's just not worth it to hit that breakpoint. Sacrificing your own health as an Assassin, just to deal mediocre damage, just isn't worthwhile. Lowering the recharge and making this a nice, easy to use lead would help this out; maybe have it always land a critical, but do no bonus damage normally. That makes it cheaper then normal (due to critical strikes energy gain). Then, have it do boosted damage when you do get low in health. The boost can be smaller, because you would need to factor in the critical hit bonus. But it would still allow for a nice, big spike chain after you've taken some damage. -- Jioruji Derako.> 01:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The idea of bringing an extra skill on top of the resulting vulnerability can not justify making an extra +60 dmg.
 * Give it unconditional +damage (around +5..20) with bonus +damage if below x% health. Also, add 'you get healed for 10..70..90 health' when the condition is met. This way it's not as dangerous to let yourself get there as Desperate will heal you back. It also prevents spamming it at low health for high damage. So basically, my final version would  be:


 * 5/4. Strike target for for +5..20d. If you have less than 50..80% health, you deal an extra +10..40d and you gain 10..90 health.


 * With stats like that, it could compete with something like Golden Fox Strike and Black Mantis Thrust for lead attack Patccmoi 13:35, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Healing is a pretty good idea :D &mdash; Skuld 07:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * What does healing have to do with desperation? If it was desperate heal I would understand, or vampiric strike it would make sense, but depserate strike is what it is, changing the function isn't neccessary.  All this really needs is split damage.  Half of the damage is dealt no matter what, and half more is dealt if the health status triggers.  That way it can be used for relavent damage no matter what, and bonus damage under a certain circumstance.--BahamutKaiser 23:07, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Realism and RP or w/e you want to call it have nothing to do with anything. I want a good skill, descriptions come second. &mdash; Skuld 13:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet (unless I'm missing something on its value). Since Leads in general are undesirable to have, this skill in particular needs a buff even though it has a 1s recharge. If only it did some kind of bonus damage it might be a decent option. Perhaps +7...11...13d would be a fair amount? --arredondo 21:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It has been posted, the discussion for it is in the archive. Don't worry, your aren't missing anything of value about it. - [[Image:User HeWhoIsPale sig.PNG]] HeWhoIsPale 18:59, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep this skill sucks. The recent buff completelty defeats itself. lol long bleeding on a skill that takes 1sec to recharge? I agree this needs +dmg if it'll ever see use. Twisting fangs is quite common and causes bleeding, and on top of that this skill is a lead attack :S --Lou-Saydus[[image:User Lou-Saydus Hail Storm.jpg|19px]] 20:20, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

imo: 5/.5/5 with ''Off-hand attack. If this attack hits, target foe bleeds for 3...10...13 seconds.'' &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 01:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Fox fangs and Jungle strike are way better than that Idea. This needs damage or something to make it useful. --The Gates Assassin 23:37, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

This skill needs to be readded to the underpowered section ever sincethe topic with it in got archived because it was bunched with the now buffed golden fox an fox fangs. This skill, sadly, got left out of buffstick fest, for reasons I'm not entirely sure of. Much as I like this skill, and spiffy animation, I feel that this does lack a certain something to make it a worthy dual. Maybe add something unique like removing preprs, glyphs or even weapon spells (All three?), Or force someone carrying an item to drop it (Lol flag runners). This would give it its own niche rather than power-creeping the general purpose sin's bar. --Ckal Ktak 20:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I used this kill on D/A Lyssa build. Seemed ok then. Not that strong true.. but eh it was okayish. Servant of Kali 11:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I really would just like to see the recharge dropped to 6.--Atlas Oranos 20:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * All of those effects are ment to be unstrippable, and giving one skill in the game the ability to remove a half dozen unremovable effects is more than broken, it is disfunctional.


 * All it needs is a 4 second recharge, if golden fox, fox fang, and ninetail all had 4 second recharge, an unblockable attack chain could be cycled every 4 seconds, and it would easily be a good alternative for meeting heavy block use. Because unblockability is only significant if the foe is blocking, and because almost all other assassin attacks have other circumstantial or constant benifits which offer more conditions and effects, I don't think it is a sin to allow Assassin a 4 second unblockable attack chain.--BahamutKaiser 15:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Golden Fox -> Wild Strike -> Shattering Assault. Unblockable under an enchantment, removes a stance and 2 enchantments from your target. Only thing it makes you give up is your elite, and face it, Shattering Assault is the only elite assassins should be using now that all the other ones suck. RitualDoll 18:54, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
 * If you truly think Shattering Assault is the only good assassin elite, you need to stop playing mets-wiki gimmick builds and read what the skills actually do. 72.235.48.41 12:15, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Its an unblockable, +80 damage attack, how can you consider that underpowered? Amazing. &mdash; Skuld 15:51, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep, because other duals are better, this thing only does +damage, and blocking usually mitigates the earlier part of your combo anyway, unless you've taken an unblockable combo, but then you are gimping your utility and ability to score a kill. if you want +damage only, there's death blossom or blades of steel, the first of which recharges much quicker, if you really want a nasty amount of damage, blow the cost, twisting fangs never goes wrong for it. There are ways around blocking which mitigate the need for this, at least with its 8 seconds recharge, drop that and you may have a point then. --Ckal Ktak 16:23, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Wide consensus seems to be that this is just too weak for a pressure skill. Perhaps buff the damage so that it isn't obviously inferior to dual attacks? - HeWhoIsPale 18:55, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmmm..."Off-Hand Attack. Must follow an off-hand attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for + damage and an additional + for every consecutive Repeating Strike (Maximum 60) If it misses, it takes an additional 15 seconds to recharge."--Deathwing' 19:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That might be hard to implement, but it would be pretty impressive... another nifty option might be "you have a [EFFECT] while activating this skill". Maybe a block chance. Or even, give the skill a chance to double-strike. -- Jioruji Derako.> 22:03, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "Dual attack. Must follow a Dual attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +10...26 damage. If it misses, it takes an additional 15 seconds to recharge." Fixed. --Ckal Ktak 22:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Doing that though, you lose the ability to finish it all off with a Dual Attack. Repeating is a nice way to roll from Off-Hand, knock down the foe's health, and when they hit a certain point, Dual Attack for the kill.
 * Maybe have repeating cause AoE damage? Small damage, of course, but it could make it useful for wearing down small groups. Finish it up with Death Blossom. There's a million ways you can buff this skill, the problem is finding one that works. -- Jioruji Derako.> 23:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Why? When MB + DB is so much better already. I like the idea of making this a dual that follows a dual attack. I love that. If that wasn't possible at least give this skill a +2 second recharge that'd actually buff this a little bit, making it possible for a L-O-O-D to finish up with Blades of Steel. Otherwise BOS is pretty much restricted to SP assassin and 5 attack chains kills with no MB in between, which's hard... and exceptionally situational.

(Reset) Perhaps "Dual Attack. If this skill hits, it causes +X damage. This skill counts as an off-hand attack." Then you could chain it, double strike, and finish with a dual attack. Ayumbhara 04:08, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If it's possible, that would be very interesting option. -- Gordon Ecker 04:15, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Half second cast!!! Lightblade 04:55, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Double-striking would be awesome, as would a half-second cast time; the biggest problem with Repeating currently is, the DPS output is just about the same as attacking normally with your inherent double-striking chance. Speed it up, and the DPS will outweigh the fact that it has no other benifits compared to normal attacks. Don't forget, it's pretty much a dead skill without WotEP. If you're ever worried about it being broken with other elites, just put the energy cost at 25 or something, it's not like it matters much. -- Jioruji Derako.> 05:00, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Doublestriking and half activation are pretty much equal DPS. I'd go with half act since it's probably easier to implement.  Also, the best part of this skill is the animation.  BREAKDANCE ATTACK!  [[Image:User GD Defender sig.png]]| GD Defender  /  contribs 05:16, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What are you fools doing! We must keep the repeating strike assasins to an all-time low! Readem   Sorry, I'll stop trolling now.  05:36, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Deffinately make this a dual that reqs a dual, half cast time would be so overpowered I can't even tell you. No after cast so 1/2 cast time is 2 attacks in 1 second. Thats probably 120 dmg per second and with IAS? Wow. Now make it a dual attack with 1/2 cast time ur really really asking for it. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:72.74.237.104.
 * Making it a Dual attack that requires a dual attack would defeat the purpose. This is meant to be repeated in the middle of a combo, not at the end. See my earlier suggestion. Ayumbhara 16:55, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I never liked this skill, as it seemed like a silly animation and I don't approve of comical combat, but as a skill, I think it does it's role well. If someone wants to repeat dual attacks, they have the option of Mobius Strike, along with Death Blossum.  I think mitigating this with the ability to dual attack continously without an elite and without the insert of another attack between duals is broken, even if Death Blossom is overpowered as well IMO.  If it were to be a Dual Attack, I agree that it must at least trigger off of a Dual Attack, ensuring the use of at least 2 other attacks before it, or 3 if a off-hand with a primer is not utlized, at which point it would still be grossly powerful as a finisher move to rip off health after whatever devistating combo was just used, can you imagine being hit by black spider, twisting fang, and than repeated dual attacks?  Just add Expose Defense as the hex primer and it would be hard to block, keeping it from being disabled as well.....  Still, with that kind of power, it should also be Elite.... so I don't think it is appropriate.


 * What I would simply suggest is that this skill require a lead or off hand attack. This way it is just another off hand with the useful option of being repeated and than finished with a dual.  Considering the wild unpopularity of lead attacks already, requiring a lead and another off hand just to repeat an attack seems a little steep, and I think that is all the benifit it requires to be a good skill, compared to off-hands which are unblockable and remove stances, or deal additional damage if crippled, or require a hex or enchantment instead of a lead, I think a lead is all this skill should require, repeatable attack skill is rather useful even if it isn't as powerful as a dual attack, because it does not require an elite to operate repeat, and foes would have to fear Assassins ability to peal out attack skills fairly cheaply with a normal lead, off-hand, and dual attack setup, perhaps even mobius to recharge it if it gets disabled.


 * I think mixing up alot of the undervalued and underused skills with alternate combination order or multiple combination order would greatly increase Assassins combo line up, I don't think many of the weaker and less valuable abilities should be reliant only one type of primer attack, and this would be a good way to reduce assassins combo dependancy and address many of their less useful skills. For instance, Golden Pheonix Strike could be a normal off hand which doesn't require a lead if you are enchanted, but can still follow a lead reguardless.  Some simple multifunctionality would make assassin combos much more interesting and viable.--BahamutKaiser 04:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If you think Death blossom is overpowered, you really are on crack, or you're one of those strange people who takes aassassins into PvE. --Ckal Ktak 09:32, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not saying Death Blossom is overpowered compared to the damage Assassins should put out, as I said it was my opinion, and there are some reasons for that. Compared to other Dual Attacks, Death Blossom has a frequncy which allows Assassin to spam damage.  Death Blossom already has the advantage of being AoE, and wile I always say that AoE damage is not an outstanding advantage, but rather a strategic advantage, I believe that the ability to basically use it back to back is an advantage all of it's own, and should not be coupled with the usefulness of AoE is just a little too powerful.  I wouldn't put Deaths Blossom on the Overpowered list, because it isn't nearly too advantagious to be nerfed, what I would do is reduce the recast time of most other Dual Attacks.


 * When you Gauge the effectiveness of many Dual Attacks, repeated use isn't that much of an advantage, some are already fairly reasonable, like Critical Strike, but others like Blades of Steel and Nine Tail Strike have 4 times the recast time, and less value. To be precise, if I think a skill absolutely needs to be changed, I would call it broken, but I wouldn't recommend anything more than a 4 or 6 second recast for Death Blossom, and it isn't a big deal if it isn't changed, wile I would also say that Blades of Steel doesn't do nearly enough damage being that it requires at least 4 preceeding skills to outdamage other attacks, and attack primers just to be effective, wile Nine Tail is also too long and deserves a 4 second Recast.


 * That being said, this is not a pole, and your opinion means nothing to me. This is a wiki section to discuss skill balance, and if you disagree with something, you should describe what you think, instead of making ignorant assumptions about the nature of another persons statement about a remark besides the subject of the topic.  If you cannot bring relavent discussion to bear, you have no influence, no developer is going to buy an undeveloped remark.--BahamutKaiser 22:37, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Owned.--Atlas Oranos 16:16, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * A dual attack following a dual could be somewhat interesting imo. I would either keep the damage at 26 or raise it to a cap of 30 at 12 though.--Atlas Oranos 16:18, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I fear it will never be a pressure skill. Starting the chain again or chaining dual attacks or moebius/death blossom is just so much better than this. I would say add a condition to it, e.g. crippling. Then it could be followed up with Trampling Ox or just snare the target. Then it might see some use. --Longasc 10:10, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Whaaa........????--BahamutKaiser 03:17, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Right now, it doesnt fit with the assassin idea, and really fails at pressure since it requires two attacks before it to be useful, and really doesnt attack fast enough, lacks any conditions to support it, and also lacks damage. Either make it a lead attack that has 1/2 activation time and keep the rest the same except maybe boost the damage, or completely change it to another AoE dagger attack (the skill icon would still fit, name would have to be changed) that does plus damage to all adjacent foes (more like cyclone axe than death blossom, but still outclassed by death blossom).--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 00:10, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It would be better to make scaling improvements to lead and off-hand attacks as a whole than trying to deal with this seperately, weaknesses in this skill stem from general disfunction.--BahamutKaiser 01:28, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Give it. For each succesful repeating strike you do 5% armor penetration (maximum 25%) Or! Change it to +31 damage at 13 Dagger mastery and +39 damage at 16 dagger mastery! Makes it an overall great Damage per energy skill--Ensoriki 00:44, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

IMO, ''Dual Attack. (5/1/0) Must follow a Dual Attack. This skill strikes for +15...35 damage if it hits and recharges for 15 seconds if it misses. For every successful usage of this skill, you attack 10% (maximum 33%) faster until you use a different skill.'' NeonCrusader 22:39, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to see this reverted back to a 5e cost. Let's compare it to Golden Phoenix Strike. Both are direct Off-Hands, skipping a Lead Attack this way. Golden Phoenix Strike was once 10 Energy, and hardly anyone used it. Black Spider Strike was once 5 Energy and abused in the SP sin build. Golden Phoenix Strike requires an Enchantment, which is easy to keep on yourself and to time, the staple skill to be combo'd with this was Aura of Displacement. After AoD received a 10e cost to prevent too much usage on Warriors, Golden Phoenix Strike was only 'fixed' after a few months of underpoweredness. Black Spider Strike requires a Hex. A hexed target is able to get rid of the hex before you can even use the attack (Hex Breaker, pre-veiling, or just being fast). This skill was combo'd with Shadow Prison. Shadow Prison was abused by... Warriors, thus received a 10e cost. People just switched the 2 Hex-Req Off-Hands around and continued killing stuff quite easily. Last week, Black Lotus Strike has been made a Lead Attack, leaving BSS as the sole Hex-Req Off-Hand dagger attack. Shadow Prison will very likely stay at 10e cost, so I'd like to see BSS be 5e, similar to AoD + GPS. And even though BSS gives Poison, its more... vulnerable requirement should make up for it.

Saphatorael 11:26, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The 10 energy thing would be fine if it did a bit more damage say like 10..22..25 68.20.222.240 23:41, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

This is fine. GPS = no poison, plus less useful. &mdash; Skuld 23:56, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Apply poison is 12 seconds of poison every time you hit with anything for 24 seconds. 15 energy can be regained.. now that black lotus is a lead it should do more damage or have it's energy cost lowered. Which ever one takes less time to program.68.20.17.151 02:39, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Potentially one of the skills that could give non-spike sins something to work with, however, this skill suffers terribly when compared to Temple Strike, no cover condition, requires an enchantment, making it hugely less flexible, in spite of the sligtly better cost and recharge. And even if you argue that skull trike is about on par with temple strike in terms of cost/utility, then you still have the problem that few people use temple strike anyway. A minor cost or recharge change to this skill could make all of the difference.--Ckal Ktak 12:23, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Your wrong. Cover it with Twisting fangs. This is better than Temple strike.--The Gates Assassin 23:34, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill could use some damage atleast. Prokiller88 16:30, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You mean, cover it with another high cost attack, Skull strike bars are energy heavy enough as it is. And that doesn't mitigate my original point, even if you do somehow prove that this is a better skill than temple strike, neither of them are used in favour of other skills.--Ckal Ktak 16:35, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

previous discussion
 * underpowered because:
 * Uncovered conditional cripple does not justify a 15s recharge
 * suggestions:
 * 5e .75s 5r
 * 5e .25s 5r, with half range
 * 5e .75s 5r, you shadowstep to target who becomes crippled for 3...15s, half range
 * 5e .75s 8r, target foe suffers from cripple and weakness for 3...15s
 * They should just add damage.--BahamutKaiser 02:28, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd go with the shadowstep one, but needs more recharge, with deadly haste, you could have a 2-second recharge, I'm probably being paranoid though. >.>(Wisteria 06:07, 14 December 2007 (UTC))
 * Yeah, specially since it requires a lead attack to work. Generally if they are in range to use a lead attack, them shadow stepping to you is the least of your concern. --Deathwing 07:54, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I was thinking something along of the lines of a DD/CS build: D.Haste - Dancing - Mantis - Vampire - Impale. Fast recharge on both DD and Mantis = indefinete cripple? (Wisteria 23:42, 17 December 2007 (UTC))
 * It is indefinite cripple in it's current form, and how often is it used? --Deathwing 00:01, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I like the idea of a half-range shadow step that causes a condition. Mantises in the game use a shadow step and Leaping Mantis to cause cripple; this skill could shorten that. You'd have to remove the Must Follow a Lead Attack though. Shadow stepping in the middle of your chain = fail. And because it's half range, it could have a lower recharge then 30 seconds like other non-elite shadow steps. I'd argue that a condition isn't as dangerous as a Hex or Enchantment but with Trampling Ox out there I'm not sure that's true (especially if this stayed as counting as an offhand).RitualDoll 18:36, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well actually, shadow step in the middle of the chain has more potential than you think, Dancing daggers, Mantis touch, vampiric assault, a full deadly arts combo. --Ckal Ktak 20:14, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Not much of a buff is needed on this skill to make it useful. Even something as simple as reducing the cast time down to 1/4 ma be enough. Still has only a few narrow uses though. --Ckal Ktak 14:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually personally i feel that this skill is aweful. At least it should have for starting effect 'target foe loses 1 enchantment and all stances'. Then the fact that they last shorter afterwards is a bonus, not the main point of the skill. For an elite, the current effect is far too weak. Patccmoi 19:19, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe add something like enchantments require twice as much energy to maintain and give it a small health degen. --Shadetz X 10:25, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Might become a powerful cover hex paired with deadly paradox, dropping the recharge to 5 and 1/2 sec cast, to remove an enchant and a stance as mentioned above, then give 50% shorter duration for ~20 sec? How about leaving it at 1 sec 10 recharge and it's current 50% ench and stance duration and add "When an enchant or stance ends on a target hexed with Mark of Insecurity, Mark of insecurity is reapplied. The duration might need to be dropped then to balance this effect.--Zarfol 00:11, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Removes one enchant when cast, increase duration reduction to 75%, removes one enchant when it ends. Too much?--Atlas Oranos 12:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually I think it is powerful enough, considering the duration, cost, and recharge, it seem fairly effective. While it isn't a dominating or swift effect, it cuts down enchantments and stances by half for around 20 seconds with a low cost and enough time to serve two foes.  Also, as a Deadly Arts skill, it is reasonable for many caster primaries to use as well.


 * I'm sure it would be a great enchantment and stance stripping elite if it was changed, but arn't there alot of skills like this already? Why would we add another stance and enchantment removal skill to go along with the vast sum of enchantment and stance stripping skills Assassin already has?  The single and only reason this would be of any benifit is because there is a lack of skills which remove an enchantment and a stance at the same time.  But if it is going to remove an enchantment and stance, than it should not shorten the durations as well, it would be more reasonable if it removed an enchantment and or stance upon application, and than again once it expired, the removal of enchantments and stance twice for 5 energy would be more than reasonable.  Still, I respect the fact that this is an alternative available for unique purposes in light of all the effective enchantment removal and effective stance removal options Assassin has.--BahamutKaiser 04:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean it removing stances, but just removing enchantments, I don't really see the sin being able to pack any enchant removal on his bar that is effective at all atm. Aside from its elite choices.--Atlas Oranos 16:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Looking back at that comment, that was totally irrelevant. But yeah, Im just popping in to comment and I don't really have any ideas for this atm...then again its really late. A cast time reduction to 1/2 could work for a slight buff.--Atlas Oranos 07:43, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * What might be nice is an effect that's active as long as the foe isn't enchanted or in a stance. That would make the Hex actually have a good purpose on it's own, and encourage the target to try and enchant themselves or use a stance even though it won't last long. It could also lend this skill to more combo potential when used with skills like Expunge Enchantments and Wild Strike; nasty effect because there's no enchantment, so they enchant themselves and fall into your Expunge trap. Maybe making the foe take damage when enchantments and stances end on them is a good option? --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]] Ĵĩôřũĵĩ Đēŗāķō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  07:52, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Idea on a rework:


 * Elite Hex Spell. Interrupt target foe. For 5...21...25 seconds, Enchantments and Stances on target foe expire 50% faster. 5.1/2.10 or 10.1/2.5 if the interrupt foe effect is too powerful.--Atlas Oranos 13:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Make it like Recurring Insecurity (more of the opposite trigger to what Zarfol posted), if target becomes enchanted or enters a new stance, it reapplies itself or you could just make it a combination of mark of instability, death, and/or the current incarnation of the skill (of course with some adjustments to energy cost, recharge and such) and it might be decent. Currently though, I dont see a reason to put this on by my bar, there are better ways to deal with enchantments and stances in the assassins arsenal, some of them not even elite, so this could really use a buff.--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 23:06, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I suggest that it becomes,Target Foe cannot block and enchantments and stances wear off 50% faster.

I feel this skill has too high of a req for just knockdown. Yea, it can be a hex for black lotus/spider strike...but something like shock sounds more usefull to me. (you generally use kd to follow up with something) I think +dmg or maybe even +interrupt might be a nice effect to add.‽-(eronth)  I gi  ve up  18:54, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * +interrupt? It already knocks down. This skill is fine, just personally I think it takes too long to recharge, but that's just me. It's ideal for extending comboes with falling spider. --Ckal Ktak 18:58, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I meant +interrupt chance while they are hexed. There are better hexes you could use and simply follow up with black spider.‽-(eronth)  I gi  ve up  19:12, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A knockdown is still a knockdown, and falling spider is more powerful than Black spider. It's just the recharge of 20 that kills it for me. --Ckal Ktak 19:30, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Shock 4 kd. You never really want a long chain anyways. ‽-(eronth)  I gi  ve up  19:50, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * boa bar with this instead of sp, falling instead of black spider and some other elite ya want. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 19:56, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * sp is a shadow step. That's one of the reasons its used.  ‽-(eronth)  I gi  ve up  20:03, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * shoot. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 12:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe a buff to 12s recharge?--Atlas Oranos 00:50, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 15sec recharge and I'd use it... at 20sec though, it's way too long to wait when you could simply use Horns of the Ox or something of the like. Perhaps make this cause a 2 or 3 second long KD as well? Make it easier to land Falling Spider. -- <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 03:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * KD = 2 sec already. –Ichigo724 19:59, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * EITHER 15r and 3s kd OR 12r. 84.40.188.84 07:01, 27 August 2007 (UTC)HTS

This is really just another in a long long list of skills with too much recharge, vast recharge times take the action out of the game, the games recharge times as a whole needs some renovation.--BahamutKaiser 15:25, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 10E is really a bummer too. IMO, this should be five energy. Also, If the hex is removed prematurely, the target is knocked down anyway.--Zarfol 05:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

15r and change the skill to read: "Target foe is interrupted and hexed with Mark of Instability.  For 20 seconds, the next time target foe is hit by a dual attack that foe is knocked down." Sins need more flexible multi-purpose skills rather than having their entire bars devoted to doing one giant combo of doom. --Symbol 20:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Make it this imo (basically same as above but more clear): ''Hex target foe with Mark of Instability for 20 seconds. When this hex ends, the hexed foe is knocked down. This hex ends automatically the next time you use a Dual Attack.'' 5e/.5c/20r.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 03:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Some weak degen on a hex with an irritating end condition. They might as well say "For 5s this hex doesn't do anything", because that's about how useful it is now. This needs to be 5e .25s 5r with 1...8 degen. If the degen becomes significant the end condition becomes more than an annoyance and the target will face a real dilemma, instead of "oh, enduring toxin refreshed, sucks for me." And the lower recharge means that at the very least you can get some quick, cheap damage tacked on to the end of your combo, so it's not a total waste. --Symbol 15:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmmm...5 degeneration for 5 seconds. That is 50 damage. If they happen to be moving when it would end, that is another 50. As far as I know, 100 damage for 5 energy and 1/4 second cast is pretty good. --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 15:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You can't count on it to refresh itself, and you only reach the 5 degen breakpoint at 14 DA, which is a pretty huge investment for a skill that does nothing but damage. Either the damage has to be big enough to be interesting (which means upping the duration and/or the degeneration) or the opponent has to be given sufficient incentive to stop moving.  --Symbol 17:13, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Not to mention one can simply remove the hex.
 * If it had a 5s recharge it would be decent. Then you'd have a spammable Hex alternative to Siphon Speed (great for BMT) while actively keeping up degen. --arredondo 21:41, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd agree with 5s recharge OR higher degen. But not both Patccmoi 13:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

So seeing as no changes were made to this skill despite ongoing discussion Here, I'd say we need to just put this skill here and get it over with. It even kept the 45 sec recharge that was removed from other shadowsteps. So basically this is the slowest shadowstep and it essentially has no effect besides removal from battle after a kill (since the deep wound wont happen til well after the target is either dead or healed). Here's hopin Izzy notices it here--Midnight08 19:43, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yup, this is a really inferior shadow step, as hex removal is pretty common and makes it a bad choice because when you're sent back it messes your combo up completely and your target is now probably buffed/healed. REALLY cumbersome recharge, remember why people didn't use deaths charge and dark prison? A 30 second recharge would be a great step in the right direction. Change the Deep wound to armor-ignoring/shadow (it is called SHADOW fang) damage (because most assassins already pack a deepwound in their build) that scales with DA, so if removed you may shadow step back, but you leave a scar they can worry about or even         . Just my opinions anyway Mi Nd L e Ss 19:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I prefer to keep the deepwound there just for variety sake. However it does seem kinda stupid, that the deepwound triggers just as you teleported away, and you have an enemy with 1 hp that won't die. That'd be a bad joke. They need to make the deepwound trigger when you first jumped in, no after you left. And yea make the recharge 30sec.
 * It's actually not bad if you can drop a lot of degen on the target while they're hexed, then watch the deepwound kick in as you pop back out. But yeah, for that to even be useful, it needs a shorter recharge; your build's main kill will be that deepwound kicking in at the end of the chain, and with the high recharge on the skill, your build's downtime is 45sec. -- <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 00:43, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I dunno about you, but i get my chain in within 5 seconds... 5 more seconds to wait for a popout and the deep wound is too long. by then theyre healed and im already probably dead if i was relying on the escape. Hell - if you have to make it an enchant shadowstep (so it doesnt chain the hex skills) that doesnt do ANYTHING special except escape. with a quick recharge to give us a reliable in/out bounce. So many better ideas than this out there--Midnight08 01:38, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

add deep wound and takes 1 damage and it may be decent. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090. 01:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * ??? not at 45 rech and 10 second effect delay... have u even read most of the above?--Midnight08 06:07, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm fine with the 10sec fixed duration; if your chain's faster, then maybe slow it down, wait until the last moment before you finish it. The sudden DW and popout are the important part. But with such a high recharge, it's not worth it; there are faster ways to do that as it is, such as Impale for DW and damage, or Shadow Walk as a step-in step-out (Shadow Walk can be canceled, and recharges faster). You can't even use Shatter Delusions on this, because it's an Assassin hex. -- <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 06:36, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * lol, u dont pvp at all do you? Slowing down a chain means more time for the monk to land a few heals and prot spells making the deep wound a moot point anyway. --Midnight08 10:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, not quite "slow down" the chain, per say, but plan ahead for the DW. Maybe call it as you use it, so teammates can take advantage of the impending DW as well. The monk's going to heal mid-chain anyway most likely; you could simply use the skill as a shadowstep with a bonus effect. Bring Impale maybe, which would make the DW from Shadow Fang a bit of insurance. You pull off your chain and DW, they manage to survive and remove DW, then you get a second application a few seconds later, preferably with some sort of degen already there. Removing the hex will be a self-applied DW for them as well, encouraging them to either leave it there, or pull it off with a condition removal in the wings (forcing them to use two skills for your one is nice). The other bonus of the skill is, it'll end prematurely and pop you out the moment you finish the kill.
 * But all that's a moot point with the current recharge, it's not worth the skillslot for any of those effects if you can only pull it off once every 45seconds. -- <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 10:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I will admit that this is a somewhat disfunctional skill, with the ever present poor recharge time, limited offensive span and risky hex implimentation, but there is something significant to recognize here, this is a non-elite shadowstep which provide advance and retreat shadowsteps as well as Deep Wound. I think all of the recharge times for advancing shadowsteps are poor, I've discussed it repeatedly, but in comparison, it believe it should have a longer cast time than certain other shadowsteps.--BahamutKaiser 19:59, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The skill is interesting, very... thats why i bring it up. But its unusable in its current state. Until basic things like recharge are addressed its not even worth it to try it out. --Midnight08 13:38, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

This skill would be VERY interesting if it were a "maintainable" hex. Would be a first for the game but I don't think it would be hard to code? Zuranthium 06:35, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * All of the Shadowsteps are pretty interesting, and even with improvementsts, Deaths Charge and Dark Prison arn't even frequent enough. Its really the whole shadowstep feature which isn't frequent enough nor address properly in order to be an enjoyable and useful feature.--BahamutKaiser 18:35, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Make it a stance like Shadow Walk with a 30 second recharge time with the Deep Wound triggering when the stance is either cancelled or runs out. <font color="Blue">Unreal Havoc  13:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

, ,
Seriously, the condition removal is so big that these skills are completely unreliable, Mending Touch easily destroys them(SS and SoDC). SoDC is easily outclassed by Impale. SoS also is inferior to SoTS. Suggestions: 1. decrease SoS recharge to 15 and buff dmg a bit, 2. increase Health gain/damage (SS/SoDC)AND/OR decrease cast time to 0.25 sec. Discuss. HTS 84.40.188.84 20:21, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * SoDC is one of the best skills in the game imo. Readem   Promote My Ban Here  06:01, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Nope, sin skillbars are usually so tight that it comes to choice between Impale and SoDC. What would you choose: a sure ~70dmg and DW OR skill which dmg can vary from 130 to 0. Anyway, I tested this skill, and unless you can apply daze, monks, even in RA, easily remove those stacked conditions, causing SoDC to do only ~30, ~60 dmg at best. HTS 84.40.188.84 07:01, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I have already created a team with SoDC, that produces a 660 damage AI Spike + DW with 3 people so I don't know what you are talking about tbh. Readem  Promote My Ban Here  18:40, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Lol, thread over.--Atlas Oranos 08:15, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * SoDC is simply a better option in combinations with Twisting Fang because Deep Wound is already provided, as well as bleeding for a fairly certain 2 conditions. If your packing something like Black Spider Strike as well, that is an easy 3 conditions which will deal more damage, and it cost no energy.  In comparison with the cost and build options available for this skill, it seems like a good skill, Assassin can apply 3 or 4 conditions in a few seconds, so it is likely that high modifiers can be met.


 * And this Mending Touch difficulty everyone keeps taking for granted is that it sacrifices range and effectiveness on others for greater effectiveness on themselves, this means they will have faster condition removal on themselves, but be much slower to help others, pushing each unit to bring their own copy, constraining a skill slot on several units. It is an effective counter to condition stacking at a resonable cost, and the fact that condition inclusive offenses are overcome by it does not mean those offenses are now underpowered, it just means you should consider alternate strategies.--BahamutKaiser 15:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The damage isn't high enough. With typical deadly spec you get ~70 damage from 3 conditions.  Blades of Steel + Impale hits faster and harder than Twisting + SoDC, and it's much less conditional to boot.  --Symbol 18:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Blades of Steel never hits hard and fast, it takes at least 4 attack primers to meet high damage values, wile any 2 primes, attacks or hexes can be used to bring through Twisting Fang, and the use of more conditions and effects with less attacks is a serious advantage, there is still a limit of 8 slots, and even if a 4 attack with BoS and Impale did more damage, it would simply be because they sacrificed more skill slots for attacks. BoS is not an easy skill to utilize.--BahamutKaiser 15:01, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Blades of steel + impale is strictly better with three or more attack skills on your bar. Not that it matters, since there are plenty of duals (read all of them) that offer more raw damage than twisting fangs without DW.  It's not like you have to take BoS if you're not using a 4 attack chain.  Signet of Deadly Corruption is terribad:  impale _alone_ outdamages it (even if it is affected by armor) for three or fewer conditions, and impale is a) less conditional, b) faster, and c) adds deep wound.   Given the choice between the two I know which one I'd pick.--Symbol 23:19, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not about whether or not one skill is more powerful than the other, they are different skills and work different ways. SoDC is a sigent, afterall, it can be used every 12 seconds for no energy cost, 5 energy ever how little that is, makes it a spell and costs more. These skills are simply a matter of build, if a player is using condition stacking attacks like twisting fang, which is very, very common, along with other conditions and even conditions from allies, SoDC can potentially do more damage, wile costing less and being usable just a little more often. As for Blades of Steel, I don't have to outline the very real liability of using 4+ combo attacks, there is a reason players favor hex prime off-hands and short combos.

Beyond that, SoDC does more damage with 3 conditions applies, which is very easy to do in 2 attacks, and is not earth elemental damage which can be greatly reduced, aside from the fact that even with medium investment in Deadly Arts, 4 or 5 conditions, implemented any number of ways by any number of teammates, can yeild 100+ damage easily wile Impale requires 12 points of investment just to reach 85 damage.

This is a failure to observe all the differences which make SoDC as good or better in different situations, the fact that it is opposed by effective condition removal options is just a liability which may counter it, meaning something else should be used if foes are expected to remove any condition instantly, not that it doesn't have it's uses.--BahamutKaiser 20:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * To comment about impale, it does more damage than many skills so I dont see the point.--Atlas Oranos 03:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see the point in coming up with contrived scenarios to justify a bad skill. You have two choices for a dual followup.  Impale...and this.  The skills directly compete.  When one of them is just better at what it does, there's a problem. --Symbol 17:54, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Slightly less damage for free is competing, and slightly more damage if used right is also competing. And as an original elementist user, you can't tell me that earth damage doesn't get cut in half on anything with armor, warriors, rangers, elemental armor mods, armor boosts, Balthazar, its more than common to see elemental damage cut in half with nearly half the foes you cross, again, your simply turning a blind eye to all the circumstances. If cost isn't an issue and your relying on Impale for Deepwound, it might be better if it isn't being used on half of the foes with high armor. If conditions are being stacked by your team, and you want damage that is going ignore defense, knowing that half the time one or two conditions will match impale on an armored foe, and with 4 or 5 conditions you can produce 130 armor ignoring damage, it really is a fair alternative, there is no reason for it to be exactly the same.

The differences are very strong, and ignoring them doesn't prove anything, naturally, your looking into all the ways SoDC can fail to trigger on enough conditions, but overlook the fact that earth damage is easly cut in half, or maybe more, by a large variety of opponents.--BahamutKaiser 23:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not ignoring the differences, I'm saying they don't matter, because outside of the contrived scenarios you're creating no one cares. Let's start from the top.  1)  I cannot think of a single assassin build where the extra 5e every 15s is an issue.  2) Impale loses some damage against armored targets, granted.  But you get MORE armor ignoring damage from the dual you replaced twisting fangs with (cuz TF is pretty much mandatory with SoDC).  It's not a small amount either, something like +54 extra if you're using death blossom and +80 if you're using a fully powered blades of steel (and pretty much everyone and their mom uses offhand -dual - offhand - dual, so don't tell me that it's hard to reach the cap).  Unless you're doing something retarded, like using TF with impale, impale is better.  3)  Even niche condition builds rely on spreading conditions 2-3 deep on everyone rather than creating a stack a mile high on one guy...so talking about scenarios where SoDC regularly triggers on four or more conditions is really absurd.  --Symbol 18:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not understanding this argument....why not use Impale AND this? Since you know, Impale helps make this skill stronger. Signet of Shadows could use some tweaking though. --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 18:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That would great if we had unlimited skill slots. Unfortunately we're limited to 8, and sin bars are tighter than most, and these two are competing for the same slot.  Also, if I wanted to stack more damage, signet of toxic shock is just better (poison comes from either BSS or Falling Spider).  --Symbol 18:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Claiming everyone uses a 4 attack combo when just as many use a hex or enchantment plus 2 or 3 attacks is simply propoganda, there are alot of builds which do not need 4 attacks, and a blades of steel combo can also include a twisting fang. Besides that, you need a lead or some sort of buff to add bleeding as well if your going with impale, you get less raw damage and more conditions.  Twisting Fang is an Assassin staple move, and perhaps the most common dual attack in the assassin bar, so trying to pretend that blades of steel and impale are the staple for Assassin really isn't going to fly, BoS Assassins are so attack intensive that they have little room on their bar for anything else, and that in intself is a massive weakness, the skill slot is the most significant cost in the game, and galavanting a one sided view against a skill and combination which is very natural isn't really going to make an impact.


 * This skill does massive damage, and ignoring that isn't really an argument, it really can't go up significantly in damage. About the only adjustment that it could receive is a reduced cast time, but in all honesty, armor ignoring damage is grand, and excersising 3 or 4 conditions to produced 75-110 armor ignoring damage with no energy cost is a bargain.  Conditional value is still value to the strategic player, that is why Paragon got ripped to shreads based on it's synergized paraway advantage reguardless of its natural use.  But this isn't even failing Assassins needs, so it doesn't need more damage.--BahamutKaiser 23:12, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Citing SoDC's armor ignoring damage is a huge benefit while simultaneously ignoring the fact that you get MUCH MORE damage simply by picking a more damaging dual to go with impale is epic fail. compare TF - SoDC to death blossom - impale or Blades of Steel - impale and the last two win by a landslide.  Hits harder, hits faster, and you can't even claim energy cost as an advantage (though that's weak anyway) because TF is a 10e dual while the others are 5e.  --Symbol 22:06, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I guess we are pretending bleeding and poison don't net any damage as well.--BahamutKaiser 20:40, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * One thing people don't realize is that Condition removal isn't as strong in some play modes like RA and AB, JQ or FA. On co-ordinated teams it is simple to say Conditions are easily removed because there it is true. However that's like the rich guy bragging that his house is always spotless "so why can't everyone have a clean house" when we know damn well his is clean because his maid does it for him. When a foe is responsible a lot of times for self-removal of Conditions because no healer (or only one for 10+ allies) is part of the group, it can get a bit tricky to deal with them.


 * With that in mind, each of the skills listed in this section should be evaluated on their own merits and not simply grouped. Sadist Signet... a decent 2nd self-heal I suppose, but I tried it and don't care for its conditional use. It needs to recharge in 4s to even get another look from me. Sig of Shadows needs a recharge buff, I agree. I still was able to use it in a decent RA build or two though when I can't fit Poison for SoTS. It only works decently if you use Deadly Paradox to cut the recharge in half.


 * Sig of Deadly Corruption has its place. It is not as easily dismissed by Impale because they do different things. Sig of DC is free, Impale is 5E (every little bit counts sometimes). SoDC has armor ignoring damage, Impale's bonus damage is affected by armor. SoDC combines well with Twisting Fangs as a way to get an extra degen Condition in bleeding. SoDC and Impale both work under Deadly Paradox for fast recharges (SoDC is 6s, Impale is 7.5s), but once Impale lays down a Deep Wound, only the AL-affected bonus damage is applied should the DW remain while SoDC smacks hard with the full 130 AL-ignoring damage every single time if the qualifier is met. Lastly (but important), because a Deep Wound never kills a foe, Impale can only get a kill if the enemy dies from the bonus earth damage before the DW is applied. Most times, they have 1 hitpoint left since the DW is applied last. SoDC by comparison kills any foe whose HP is less than the damage inflicted. Here's one RA build using SoDC pretty well (and coincidentally Sig of Shadows since I have no Poison for SoTS):


 * You get 5 Conditions, but only need 4 for max SoDC damage. This allows it to do 130 damage even if an opponent removes one. Once the foe is Crippled, it is easier to interrupt stuff like Dismiss Condition on your Dazed foe (who is Blinded too if he's melee). After TF is triggered for the Deep Wound and Bleeding, hit Deadly Paradox and you get fast recharges for SoDC (6s) and SoS (15s). That way you get a -225 AL ignoring damage spike in one second (DP speeds up Sig casts), but you don't wait long to do the full combo on the next foe. Even in TA, should you tag the enemy team's only Condition remover with this, the Daze will keep them fully loaded with Conditions most times for all of the damage to connect.


 * Build- OwBk0pe8nNaUaGPiAgi4/D3DCDbD
 * Gear- PkpxF3IWykqYl2I90Ul2ILFfo0IXVXl0IFlLl0IZFA
 * --arredondo 23:34, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Both these skills need a fix, Siphon Strength not so much but a small fix could make it much better. For Siphon Strength changing either the activation to 1/4 OR adding Target foe attacks 25% slower would be Very,very nice. It would form as Critical Boost,Strong Melee Shutdown, and it functions for the black line. Why it wouldn't be imba like shadow prison, Its not a shadow Step and its not a snare, it doesn't stop people from kiting and it doesn't warp you to them.

Now with Shroud of Silence, it needs a quick fix. This skill is meant to Shutdown Spell casters, however it also shuts you down! There are multiple ways to make it better 1.Make it a touch Skill. 2.Make it no longer stop you from casting 3.Make it Half-ranged 4. Make it Long-ranged. 5. Increase duration to a maximum of 18 at 16 Deadly arts, and increase energy to 15. 6. Decrease your Spell Handicap to 10/5.


 * I don't think there is a problem with SoS especially if you organize your team to take full advantage of it. If it were not a hex, then it would not be removable making it overpowered.  If it did not disable spells, it would be a huge buff to Assacasters, especially with your proposed duration increases.  If it were a half or full ranged spell it would make it more of a secondary assassin skill rather than a primary which would end up causing imbalance as well.  I don't see a problem with reducing the length spells are disabled to 10 seconds since that would still prevent casters from abusing the skill.  --Rururrur 01:39, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Both of these skills are great. --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 02:43, 11 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Really my deal isn't With Siphon I love it =P pretty balanced out, I would rather activation goes to 3/4 or 1/4th however but it should be interruptable so 1 second is fine. Though it Should disable the hexed person from getting critical hits. As it stands now a D/A vs a A/* both with siphom, the Dervish gets the better deal. Dervish gets a additional 33% crit rate increaasing his damage massively. The sin however will still be hitting his 32-20 damage from crits. The assassin will survive without being able to do crits, as assassins are rather good at dealing conditions. The Dervish However will actually take the shutdown Properly. Instead of bypassing it (and Doing Regular Damage REGARDLESS) due to the increased crit rate. This goes for any other melee class using Siphon. It doesn't break the skill, it just means If 2 people siphon each other, They both feel it, the Dervish doesn't due there high Crit damage bypassing Siphon and making it there regular high damage. Same for a Hammer Warrior. Seems fair?

Shroud, It shouldnt disable that long seriously, 10 seconds is good, scalable is even better. The thing is Sin casters are nothing without Deadly Paradox and if Izzy is planning on BALANCING (not nerfing to the grave =P...but over hauling works too) then Shroud should be changed in that exact update.

&
I think Heart of Shadow still lacks the significant function to legitimize it's use. As a skill, it does not replace an advancing or withdrawinging shadowstep, it does not replace a defensive skill, or a healing skill, it doesn't offer benifits to an ally like simular reactive heals, and it isn't even calculated.

Heart of Shadow would have some underlying benefits if it was more frequent. Heart of Shadow isn't a reliable escape step because it can put you into enemy hands as well as save you, the nearby shadowstep only offers some minor breathing room, and serves more as a fashionable skill feature over actual advantage. The shadowstepping part is not legitimate or controlled enough to be counted as a significant feature of the spell, and the healing is nearly worthless. Compared to Reversal of Fortune or Vampiric weapon, the recast time really isn't available enough, it doesn't deal damage or reduce and restore health in one swoop, and it offers a vaguely useful shadow step. A random Shadowstep, and it cannot be used to help allies, and it has high recast time.

I think the opportune alteration to make with Heart of Shadow is reduce recast time, along with reduced duration. With a Recast Reduced to 5 or 7 seconds, and duration of 15 seconds, it would be available enough to provide semi-consistent healing, and even dub as a frequent lightning orb dodging skill. I have to say, even with this alteration, it does not replace any advance or retreat shadowstep, movement skill, or even healing skill, it is only functional as a supplement in almost any light, and it's only for yourself unlike Reversal of Fortune. Now if the recast was 3 seconds it would compare with Vampiric for recovery, but still, it isn't a healing skill, and against something like heavy degen offensive, it may never activate. As such a circumstantial, random placement, non-alternative, supplemental, self protection only skill (also mention it is based on Assassins survival needs...) this can really benefit from the improvement of reduced recast.

Another advantage of reduced recast is that, though the nearby shadowstep may not keep foes far from you, used once every 5 seconds the foe will spend a minimal amount of time tracking you every 5 seconds, which can add up to some survival time in the long run. As well, with frequent reuse, it can make targetting the Assassin with Projectiles a difficult task. By using HoS or VD effectively, it can even become a significant projectile evasive maneuver.

As for Vipers, it is really easy to improve, instead of being struck, the next time a foe attacks you, it is blocked/nullified, and the rest the same. This blocks a single attack (melee, projectile and attack spell), teleports you and poisons them, for a fair cost at 10 second recast.

With some frequency, these would offer useful evasive and defensive advantages, as they are, neither really qualifies as an advantagious ability. They may be a bit easier to opperate, but Deaths Retreat offers healing and Calculate escape, and even following capabilities. HoS needs to be frequent for it's restoration effect to make any impact, and for it's evasive qualities to be legitimate. VD really needs the added defensive quality, it could also benifit with improved evasive quality by reducing the recast time, along with the stance duration and poison duration to compensate. Right now, both seem like gimmic skills.--BahamutKaiser 22:48, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

My vote for worst Assassin skill. It's also hard to adjust since its function has so little value as it is now even in the best of scenarios. Perhaps if it were reworked to read this way...
 * Mirrored Stance (Shadow Arts Spell) - Any Stance being used by target foe ends and instead you enter that Stance for 1...8...10 seconds.
 * 10e/1c/10r

Against Rangers, Dervishes, Warriors, and Assassins you'd get some decent results, especially as a defense debuff. As you are wailing on a caster, you can "borrow" an enemy Warrior's Frenzy to add dps (if you're not targeted of course). Being chased by a Sprint enemy? Take it from him and Sprint yourself. Just when Glad Defense pops up to protect a foe, you remove it and use it for yourself. An Escape Ranger will be unable to run and hide while you get the speed buff and block protection. Mantra of Recovery shutdown can make some Mesmer builds significantly rattled while adding benefit to your own spells. Gimping an enemy's Stance use while tactically buffing your own options would improve this skill quite a bit.

arredondo 20:47, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I like idea.
 * Possibly, but remove the duration. Imagine stealing some of the short stances and making it last 10 seconds? O.o Fun Idea though. A bit overpowered maybe. --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 21:05, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * To get 10s you have to spec super high in SA, which ain't gonna happen =). It isn't overpowered in the sense that Arcane Mimicry, which lets you copy planned elites, isn't overpowered despite a 20s duration with no attribute points invested. You don't have as much control over using these stances as you would if they were natively on your bar.
 * arredondo 00:34, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds fun against stance-using monks. Might have to be half-ranged, though, since the only ranged stance removal is Wild Throw, which takes 7a to use. --Heelz 02:33, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I like that idea as well. But keep the stance duration based on the original stance, not on your Shadow Arts level... you'll either get good stances for longer durations then you should, or you'll get good stances for much shorted then you should. This would simply become a stance-removal, rather then a stance-copier.
 * Another option would be, in addition to the initial stance-stealing effect, keep it as a Hex and let it retain the stance-copying effect. A foe hit by this could use another stance to try to break you out of the one he gave you (such as, you steal Rush, they follow up by giving you Flurry, just to stop you from keeping the Rush effect). Would make for some nifty stance-battles as well... you could bring something like Dash on yourself, to cancel any crappy stances they give you ("here! Take my Frenzy while my teammates wail on you!" "no, I'd rather use Dash!"). Of course, you're rarely going to run into a guy packing multiple stances they'd actually want to give you... but you could kite a Warrior by repeatedly copying his speedboost, or something like that. Or let the Warrior continue beating up on your teammates, while you use his Flail on his Monk. The possibilities for the current skill setup are pretty limitless... the problem is, nobody wants to waste a skill slot on something that might not do anything. Letting it steal a stance on activation would make it a skill worth using, possibly. -- <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 03:03, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * What i always thought would be nice for this is 'Enter target foe's stance. For 5..17..21s, target foe cannot enter any stance'.


 * It would have basically 3 uses. First one, most 'serious' use likely, is to prevent a potential target from entering a stance to defend himself. A monk has Defensive Stance? Use Mirrored Stance on him before comboing so that he can't use it without removing the hex first. Could also be useful against Steady Stance warriors, etc. that would be unable to reactivate it. Basically, it's a hex preventing people from entering a stance, which is worthwhile utility on its own.


 * Second use would be to kill Frenzy warriors. You use Mirrored Stance, they can't enter any stance (so they're STUCK in Frenzy) and you can combo them down. Sure, you enter in Frenzy too (which can be nice if you can combo them safely since you gain IAS) but if you plan to do this you'd obviously carry a cancel stance of your own. For instance you could use Mirrored Stance on a Frenzy warrior and then cancel it with Dash right away if you're in danger. But HE can't cancel anymore.


 * And third use would be to acquire useful enemy stances. But this use is RANDOM and depends TOTALLY on what your foes are carrying, and so it SHOULDN'T be the primary use of the skill. It should be an interesting 'side-effect'. Take the focus of the skill away from this, since it's waaaay too random to warrant a skill slot, and instead make it just some fun stuff added to the skill.


 * This version of Mirrored Stance would give another much needed utility to Shadow Arts, and would help sins a lot in splits too (would be a perfect hex to deal with Rangers loving to Natural Stride. Ends it if they already have it on cause it's a hex while giving the stance to you, and prevents them from using it again). Patccmoi 18:55, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Nice suggestion.--Atlas Oranos 16:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed --Cursed Angel 21:43, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

The next suggestion would be to make this an enchantment to be cast on your allies (or target an ally and cast on yourself, for those Golden sins), meaning you could actually plan the use of it, like group Shadow Walks if the skill works like that. --Ckal Ktak 23:36, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Bad Idea Ckal, then you just have a new Recall....A bunch of characters, entering shadow of haste from 16 Mastery, Making it a hex is best because it helps to the role of an assassin killing WHILE defending themself.A Making it an enchant is just ASKING for abuse.--Ensoriki 21:46, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe not as broken as recall, but then it would still be funny if badly co-ordinated. But then the possiblity of a team being able to maintain whirling defense on itself basically across all players is somewhat scary.--Ckal Ktak 22:03, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm bringing this topic up as well because it is deftly ineffective. Long Recast times do not belong on Assassin, in almost all of their abilities. This is because they are already mitigated by the need to keep their attack cycles brief, and forfiet their weak normal attacks as well as continued preasure in a pattern to stay alive rather than cling to a foe. Also, because of Assassins reliance of Attack Skill success, it is even more important that they have viable unblockable modifiers.

45 seconds is entirely too long, under no circumstance is this a reasonable recharge time, for this skill, and most others in the game in general. Assassin does not operate around 45 second attack intervals, and having an unblockable modifier which only works often enough for 1 out of 4 to 10 uses of a combo is extremely deficient, as well as the use of blocking techniques which commonly range in the continous use to 1/3 duration/reuse ratio. It is entirely ineffective.

I feel 30 seconds is still a bit too long, yet 20 seems a little too abundant, so I will presume 25 is the best, I would say testing and deliberation should be utlized, but than we are also relying on the judgement of those who set this skill at its current value to begin with, and I obviously disagree with their decision..., so I'm asking that it be changed, and let its circulation determine how reasonable the skill is.

Beyond that, someone else suggested something very good, that it activate on Attack Skills. This is extremely relavent because the value of Assassins natural attack is the bottom of the scale, and the value of the assassins attack skill damage is the top, this adjustment is more important than reducing the recast time, wile 45 seconds is still completely unreasonable, it is a more important modification, as well as an original feature for an alternate skill.

By reducing this skills recharge time to 25 seconds, and changing its modifier to activate only on attack skills, Assassins would be able to effectively overcome moderate blocking defenses with reasonable efficiency, since it can be used just a little bit more than Aegis. It would still be less useful with weaker frequent attack combos, but it would be entirely valuable with attacks like Golden Pheonix Strike.

Lastly, as an alternate setup, the skill could feature a 10 energy cost and 20 second recharge, as well as attack skill only activation. This would counter it's added recharge advantage and modifier functionality with additional cost, in comparison to Expose Defense, it would not offer a continous effect for several attacks and attack skills, but it would have a quicker activation and it is in a more functinal survival attribute. This may be the most reasonable adjustment. The curren't Fox's Promise isn't a reasonable comparison, but in comparison to the suggestion made for Fox's Promise, it would be reasonably weaker because of its lack of reuse, lack of effect, and higher cost, as well as higher recharge. I feel that the alternate option is probably the better choice.--BahamutKaiser 04:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The only use i have for it is in 1v1 scrims aside from that its pretty bad. 5-1/4-25 and only attack skills would make it a good skillDVDA 08:46, 12 September 2007 (UTC)


 * This skill has a basic replica in Guiding Hands, the Dervish skill. It should be equivalent at the least. --(Problem. 01:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC))


 * I don't think it should be equivalent, because Assassins are combo reliant, and Dervish gets enchantment restoration after each returns.--BahamutKaiser 20:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

This skill has 15e 1/4ct and 20r. Shadow Prison has 10e 1/4ct and 20r. I understand that Beguiling Haze's condition is a rare condition, but Shadow Prison doubles over as a shadow step/hex (as a req for BSS and BLS). Beguiling Haze's E-cost should be brought down IMO. ‽-(eronth) I gi  ve up  18:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill owns PvE. There is little reason to take SP over this against AI. This is total shutdown for 10+ seconds. --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 18:20, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill also owns casters in pvp, but yes, at the moment, you have to do all kinds of stuff just to be able to use a chain with this, I would agree with a lower cost.--Atlas Oranos 22:36, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Interupt, shadow step and daze? Thats 15 energy to me. Shadow prison is Shadow step and snare, this gives an extra effect so +5 energy. --72.74.237.104 17:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * True, but the daze doesn't last long at all, you can kite it out most of the time.--Atlas Oranos 20:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * In comparison to Dazed, reduced movement speed is only effective if used on someone who needs to escape, in comparison to a skill which will make a caster useless, and a hex which makes it difficult to escape, the advantage is still with Dazed, because it is hard to apply otherwise, and it is hard to remove from yourself, wile reduced movement can be applied by any number of other available skills. You can be pretty sure that if you use Shadow Prison, you don't have the opportunity to Daze them as well, but if you use Beguiling Haze, there are more than enough ways to cripple a foe, starting with the same attribute your getting BH from.  You have comparable disadvantage trying to kite wile dazed as you do simply retaliating wile immobilized.  15 energy may be expensive, and hard to follow with an assault, but if it gets a reduced cost, everything else in competition with it, Shadow Prison, Golden Skull Strike, and Temple Strike all need a reduced cost or stronger effect to compete, though maybe that is acceptable.--BahamutKaiser 00:40, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well yeah, thats sort of my point, to use this skill you have to skimp on damage, health, and you have to expend another 10 energy for an effective snare, so that either leaves you with bls, and thats about it I think. Iono, maybe its best that this beast is left alone.--Atlas Oranos 20:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it is important to realize that Assassin isn't ment to be a one man offense, nor completely self sufficient. If this was a solo game, it woud matter that Assassin can't do everything under the sun with this build, a snare will require another skill, perhaps from another profession even, or even another player. Assassin has always been ment for surprise tactics, and deal heavy short term, perhaps lethal damage. That does not mean it should work alone, or have abilities to cover every angle.

So where does that snare come from? How about Freezing Gust from an Elementist team mate?, how about a double strike from another melee attacker with Shadow Prison? This whole idea that Assassin is ment to rush in, apply every condition in the game and single handedly kill their foe in one attack is pretty silly, sure there are builds that can do that, but that is an extreme not a norm. I feel this mentality comes from the lack of availability with some shadowsteps, making them feel like one hit wonders, but that is not the limitation with this skill, it is the cost. But there are inventive remedies if you think about it. Try an Elementist Secondary and use Glyph of Lesser energy, you prep your BH with 10 less energy cost, wile the initial 5 starts regenerating before you advance, this can even be used to break down the cost of a preceeding enchantment or hex.

I don't believe this skill cost too much, it is relative to the amount of power it yeilds. Perhaps the real issue here is the lack of energy Assassin has. As a melee profession with near caster requirements, their overall energy provision is rather light. One could say that the primary compensates, but Energy Storage and Soul Reaping don't replace the importance of added energy on caster weapons. What I'm saying is that Daggers are very low damage yield, to be precise, extremely low, and doulbe attacks are really not an asset to a profession without the reasonable facility to continue attacking with regular attacks. Perhaps Daggers should also include +5 energy as a static benifit, as compensation for their lack of use as significant attack weapons. Dagger attacks revolve around chaining attack skills together, they simply require daggers, but are really just subject to the lowest base damage in the game, and double attacks offer no benifit to a profession which naturally involves builds which utilize attack chains. You cannot benifit from a double attack during an attack chain, and Assassin isn't ment to stick to their opponent for continous attacks outside of their chains, even if poor improvisions have been made to their defense skills to offer them a tanking role.

Assassins can make use of Radiant Insignia, Runes of Attunment, and Weapons which offer energy as a mod in exclusion of other benifits, but as a initial asset, they could benifit from the addition of 5 energy on their weapons as a basic advantage, simular to caster weapons. But this is too much to discuss about this skill, and furthering it should be done seperately, I think that Scythe and Hammer deserve additional benifits too, not energy, but other improvements, and I would like to see some alterations, lets start another topic if we are going to discuss this though.

The skill Beguiling Haze, 15 energy and Elite status for a Rare Condition, shadow step, and advantagious reuse is balanced IMO. Compared to it's close competition, Shadow Prison, which provides a common snare in comparison to a rare condition, I believe the 5 energy is justified.
 * To comment on the whole team thing, I can agree with that, it just seems ridiculus to skimp on so much just to be able to use this skill then chain through an attack chain.--Atlas Oranos 08:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Enchantment Spell. For 4 seconds, you have a 50% chance to "evade" attacks. When Shadow Refuge ends, you are healed for 30...102. For 4 seconds, you take half damage. When Shadow Refuge ends, you are healed for 30...102.

I pulled these up from gw.gamewikis.org. Now, obviously, this skill is underpowered in its current form when Assassins go into /Mo secondary for a heal.

Personally, I would like to see the second description return. Now, I have seen people argue about this skill for awhile, about it being overpowered for other primary classes, and I would like a couple of people to help me brainstorm with this.

One way to eliminate this would be to only allow the reduction for Sin primaries, not original but could work.

A second way would be to just make the current one heal at the end, regardless of if you are attacking.

I would like to see this skill get more use than it does atm, and with sins weak in defense it seems that a revert on Shadow Refuge would help this skill immensely.--Atlas Oranos 23:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It was too powerful on sins too. Hell, it was nearly elite-worthy in its 2nd stage. Shadow Refuge (with 20% longer enchant)->AoD->Combo->release was totally crazy in ganks, you could jump in GL's area and not care at all. Also made sins extremely hard to kill. Shadow Refuge is kinda bad, but i think the end conditional just needs to be tweaked (or removed altogether) for it to be a good self-heal Patccmoi 13:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I tend to reach to far on things. I don't think my second idea on Shadow Refuge wouldnt be too bad though, having it heal when the enchant ended.--Atlas Oranos 20:33, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not so sure this needs the improvement being asked for. Assassin has always needed an improvement, but I think they have always been improving the wrong thing, which is why they never seem to make up for their defense and survival.  I was actually upset when they improved the block rate on some assassin skills because.... Assassin isn't suppose to be defensive, it is ment to be evasive.  The identity has always been about avoiding damage, being quick about your business and not standing around to let the foe pummel you.  It is the shadowsteps which need the attention.


 * I already explained what I think should be done for ShadowSteps in the Deaths Charge/Dark Prison section, what I would suggest for this is simply that the modifier for healing is "not attacking" instead of "attacking". Being Pressured into attacking is a Warriors ability, the use of continous offense and no holds bar attacking, Assassin is ment to hit and run, guerlla tactics, Spike damage yield, escape, recover, and return to battle.  It is subtle, but significant, because you cannot always control whether there is a foe available to attack, but you can always control whether your attacking or not.  Even if you are attacking, it only requires a brief pause to wait for the healing to take effect, and than you can return.  But most of all, this rewards hit and run tactics, by using spike damage attacks, and than using healing skills will evading continous combat, and than returning for another spike attack, the halmark healing skill for assassin accompanies the halmark combat style for assassin, hit and run.  This also matches the name of the skill better as well, because refuge is not characterized by continous attacking, it is characterized by peice and avoiding conflict.


 * The skill already restores a massive amount of health in comparison, high regeneration for 4 seconds, and medium healing for only 5 energy, available every 8 seconds. With a 1 second casting time it is is moderatly low risk as well.  By simply reversing the situation the health is applied at the end, it is a more reliable healing skill, and by developing Assassins defensive alternative, ShadowStepping, Assassin would be able to survive much better, and regain much of it's identity, functionality, and originality from professions like Warrior and Dervish which are ment to take a pounding, not Assassin.--BahamutKaiser 00:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well said, the only problem I have with shadow refuge at the moment, is to get the healing you have to cast it before you go do your damage to actually get an effect. It seems counterproductive to the get in, attack, get out concept. You cant really sit and mingle with an enemy because by the time you are healed he would most likely have beat more hp out of you than the skill heals.--Atlas Oranos 20:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, it was buffed, but the healing at the end is still an awkward mechanic.--Atlas Oranos 10:41, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, it is fair enough, since it does heal at the same potency as healing breeze for 6 seconds at half the cost, with a bonus wile attacking. At a 6/9 duration to recharge ratio, it is alot better than 4/9, I guess it will be enough. But I don't like how Anet simply defects with more or less power without taking the time to develope better mechanics for disfunctional abilities, it isn't sufficient for many other skills, like deaths charge...--BahamutKaiser 16:29, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, they would rather buff a flawed mechanic instead of just changing it. Poisoned Heart for example. They just keep buffing it, instead of just acknowledging that PBAoE for a caster is bad. --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 18:04, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Either, for 4 seconds you and all party members gain x...x regen and when Shadow refugee ends, all party members are healed if your attacking.

Or. Heal x...80 hp for 4 seconds you have x...8 regen (12 shadow arts). When shadow refugee ends you gain x....90hp if your attacking.--Ensoriki 21:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

A 20 sec recharge is waaaay too long for 5 seconds of blindness. Throw Dirt is good for 15 second of blindness with only a 30 second recharge and you don't have to wait for someone to hit you which means you can use it to protect a monk who is being spiked. Done25 04:26, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Since no one is saying anything I will throw an idea out. To stop this skill from being abused by monks put the blindness on a scale of 0...3...3 (1 sec ever 4 levels) and give it a recharge of 10 seconds. Done25 18:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This isn't very underpowered imo. Can completely stop any non AoM melee spike. Blind doesn't have to be long to be effective either, as it gets taken off 3 seconds after its applied. Also, you have to activate throw dirt. This is instant.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 11:50, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * 1. I have no idea what AoM is. 2. The blind should be short (3 sec instead of 5). 3. Like I said before you can use Throw Dirt to cover your monks so that 1 sec activation isn't that big a penalty. 4. Also if the recharge is halfed you can use the 1/2 damage part more. Done25 15:33, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * AoM = Avatar of Melandru. -- Gordon Ecker 01:38, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Reduce recharge to 10, its a defensive skill and its kinda weak... although it would be used by monks more but 5 seconds of blind.. its not that powerful waiting 5 seconds to start a spike and if your spike takes longer than 5 seconds then... your not spiking. 68.20.17.16 15:25, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Change to this imo: For 1...8 seconds, the next time your hit with a melee attack skill you take half damage and all adjacent foes are blinded for 1...3...4 seconds. 5e/15r<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer' 06:22, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

This skill is not underpowered, just need to be changed, so that it would be used more and would be not that powerful against spikes.
 * "Enchantment Spell. For 4...9...10 seconds you gain +4...7...9 health regeneration and gain +10...24...30 armor.This skill ends if you successfully hit with an attack." 10e 1/2c 15r Prokiller88 23:57, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * "Enchantment Spell. For 4...9...10 seconds you gain +4...9...10 health regeneration and gain +80 armor. This skill ends if you successfully target other ally or foe with a skill." 10e 3/4c 20r Done25 20:55, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The armor gain is too useful for it to be non-elite.Prokiller88 17:02, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * For 4...9...10 seconds you gain near immortality. Oh wait, that is what it already does, my bad. --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 17:16, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thats the problem, too much armor and you can certainly run around for that.. uhh some amount of seconds for it.Prokiller88 16:32, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I take it no-one has but this in here because no-one has actually ever considered the use of it. Yep, it's an aura of displacement that you can use to attack your....teammates? Seriously, I feel that this skill needs an ever so slight function change, no matter how cheap or quick to recharge, sins aren't going to use it. How about you just change it to something like: 5/0.25/12 "Shadow step to target creature." Simple, but potentially really quite fun too. --Ckal Ktak 08:02, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The skill is an elite recall.... not very useful imo. Im not sure how this would be fixed, but if definitely deserves its place here.--Atlas Oranos 00:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Here's a crazy idea that can turn a useless elite into an interesting one... how about while maintaining Shadow Meld you get +1E regen instead of the normal -1E degen? It still serves as a panic button retreat like Return, plus it's a constant enchant to use with all of the Assassin (or /Dervish) skills that need one to work. Yes, some Monks might use it for the slight energy bonus and defensive aspect, but I still think it would be cool to consider. Maybe require 4 points in Critical Strikes attribute or something. --arredondo 02:13, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Or give it the +1e regen, to cancel out the degen. Thus making it a free maintained enchantment. But on that note, I still don't think that makes the skill any better... although that would let you stick it on every allied NPC you can find, for some awesome shadow-stepping chains. If you gave it +1e regen instead of the normal -1, then you could stick it on six players in your party to gain +10e regen, which isn't a balanced skill at all... -- <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 03:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Clearly you've never actually used the skill. This enchants yourself not the targeted player.  —ǥrɩɳsɧƿoɲ  〚 ₮ /ḉ〛 07:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I actually use the skill all the time (just made a nifty skillbar with ten shadowsteps), I simply forgot that specific. My bad.
 * But on that note, this skill does need something else going for it then simply being used as an anchor. Some other benefit that makes it worth using. Keeping in mind, it's simply meant as a niche skill with no real purpose other then a half-decent anchor... maybe it could use a bit something else going for it to make it better at that job? I don't think many Monks would waste a skillslot on this, so let's keep it that way... no big boosts in energy or health. As cool as it would be to suddenly leave the battle and get healed to max health on command, that encourages chicken tactics... there's "hit and run", and there's "get hit and run". Stay away from the latter.
 * Maybe an effect for the guy you shadowstepped to originally... or something of an offensive tactic, maybe hitting adjacent foes for damage and crippled when you end the enchant. Dunno. -- <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 07:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

This works quite differently from recall, but it can be used for nearly the same purpose, which is actually very significant considering recalls tactical advantage on the battlefield. The fact that it is primarily a retreating shadowstep and still cost the same, has the same recharge, and no additional benifits over Aura, considering its lack of tactical value as a retreat instead of an advance is pretty shady. I always had a problem with the cost of AoD, as an Elite with a maintenance cost, which is fairly significant on an Assassins Energy, I think all of the maintenance Shadowsteps need to be cheaper, but this one really needs it in comparison.

As for it's usefulness, it can be used as a marker escape and engagement with the help of an allie, than return to an enemy location wile they are unaware. The thing is that it can be done even better with AoD, since it offers an engaging step, and with either, the foe can remember that you have marked that location and prepare for your return, so it isn't so valuable, with either, which is likely why it isn't a common tactic. Both really need 5 energy costs with their maintenance. But considering that both have the same energy cost, whether it is 5 or 10, something that can be added to this is a defensive or healing boost, which would offer regeneration or increased defense of some sort wile the enchantment is maintained, or even a straight heal when activated. Something simple would offset the cost, but in all honesty, it is a serious liability, since removing the enchantment can send you right back into enemy hands, making it a "shadowy" retreat option, and using an elite to escape your foe when you can use a normal shadowstep for less energy, no maintenance, better recharge time, and better additional effects like AoE cripple, oh yeah, this is a poor skill.

I would put this in the lack of creativity box, and slate it for removal or redesign altogether because it is such a poor technique, it seems they just figured to make a reversed version of AoD without considering the utter lack of usefulness, I never even liked AoD because it cost entirely too much for an Assassin build, and the trigger acts as a dual liability as well, since you can be sent packing, and ambushed upon retreating as well. But all of that said, it still provides a unique effect, and as a unique ability, it can be used to exploit a foes unwaryness. Yet even than, I cannot see this as an elite skill.--BahamutKaiser 04:30, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok why do we need a reverse Aura of Displacement? Lets make this do something unique like make it 5 energy ,1/4 cast and 1 recharge. Shadowstep to target ally. Antiarchangel 01:03, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It would be cool to have something like: 5/.25/8 shadowstep to target (ally or foe) elite with no other effect. A completely different skill to other shadowsteps with a lot of versatility. 76.102.172.202 23:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * So bad it gets put on here twice. Now thats saying something. Probably saying more about Antiarchangel than about the skill, but yeah. --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 01:50, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well I don't blame him, the list of underpowered Assassin skills is so long.......... I think it is someone elses responsibility.--BahamutKaiser 02:25, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill just needs to be made into a shadow step that can be reused, IE, lower the recharge, remove the enchantment part, but keep it a spell, and it might find a use, doubt it, but you never know. Right now it seems like a really weird return enchantment.--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 23:16, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I love the skill the way it is now 15 second recharge would be nice, but It's 1 of my favorite skills. You say its over powered but I think its fine.--Ensoriki 02:13, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Yea... 5 1/4 8 recharge "Elite skill. Shadow step to target" 68.20.21.224 22:04, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Reduce to 5 energy to cast. Ashesfalldown 11/17/07
 * Make it shadow step imo. Dark Morphon 16:38, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't change it, its fine as it is.68.20.222.240 23:59, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

&
I agree with the recast reduction, I could even support further reduction, shadowstep is the outstanding feature which makes Assassin interesting and I wish it could be much more frequent. Typical Shadowsteps could also involve some adrenaline reduction, maybe not all, but perhaps half, in order to make it less viable for Warriors. Since Dervish does not have as much armor, and does not have the knockdown abilities Warrior does, I don't think it is necessary to make additional concessions to limit Dervish/Assassin combinations and all other professions, intrinsically, casters who wish to do PB and PBAoE spells in cooperation with shadowsteps should not be further penalized since they actually have less defensive value than the Assassin.

Though I wish all advancing shadow steps had a reduced recharge so they were available between 20 and 25 seconds for normals, and 10 to 15 for elites, in order for this to be viable, something like an adrenaline reduction as well as some functional shadowstep counters need to be developed. I think this is the main quality lacking in the equation, Assassins really should be able to shadowstep quite often, that way they can exercise surprise tactics regularly instead of being functional only a fraction of the time. Some good counters would be DoT effects which intercept shadowsteps if they cross through them, additional effects to cripple and hexes which normally reduce movement speed to reduce the distance of a shadowstep accordingly as well, and additional features to Wards like Ward Against Foes which would intercept Shadowsteps passing through them. Also Nature and Binding Rituals can be added or altered to include effects which limit and counter shadowstepping. I think the real limitation hovering over shadowsteps is the lack of counter diversity, Assassins should be able to naturally and frequently pitch in and out of battle, and with shadowsteps like these two, this typically means 2 skill slots just to shadowstep in and out. The fact that Shadowstep skills like these are unidirectional and only good for advancing, unlike any running skill which can be used to advance or withdraw, as well as the fact that the skill slot, the highest cost in the game, is consumed for this function, really makes the entire shadowstepping process a hardship. I believe this is the pivotal feature which has always held Assassin back, and wile some of the other alterations were reasonable, I don't think they will ever compensate for the interest and advantage Assassin players desire for the surprise attack identity and simple satisfaction they expect from the profession. As long as shadowsteps remain a function which is restricted primarily by it's lack of availability, they will never be functional with natural Assassin combat style, even at a 30 second recharge you talking about only jumping in to surprise the enemy twice a minute, and that really takes the consistency out of Assassins routine.--BahamutKaiser 01:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I like that idea for Ward Against Foes... making shadowsteps end when they hit the ward would give casters more defenses, but perhaps that would be a little too much; shadowstepping is one of the Assassin's best ways to get to those casters. For now, I'm happy with the recharge reduction... reducing it more would be even better of course, but 30sec is a nice breakpoint for now. Right on par with Shadow Walk; which incidentally, wouldn't last long enough with a shorter duration, or wouldn't be worth using if it was longer then the others. -- <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 22:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The 30 second recast makes them barely useable, before they were basically unacceptable and almost a gimmic, like many skills, no matter how powerful the effect, the infrequency makes them one hit wonders and lacking in consistent usefulness. Developing legitimate counters to other skill types is a serious issue, because though Assassin is well placed as a caster offender, every profession should be able to mount a counter to another profession if prepared, fostering the use of revolving builds to overcome builds, and avoid being overcome, this keeps the competition fresh and vivid.  The touch of death for alot of skills is that they do not have available, legitimate or effective counters, forcing them to be self regulating in order to keep them at bay.


 * Consider this, how much would melee damage have to be reduced if all the blocking skills in the game were ineffective, underpowered, and rare? Take away Aegis, Guardian, all manner of blocking stances and enchantments, and melee damage would end up being nerfed exceptionally in order for it to be a fair feature.  In perspective, there are very few, very ineffective, and very secluded counters to elemental damage in particular.  Things like Mesmers Mantras and Ward Against the Elements are not prevalent enough to offer consistent elemental damage counters, and in response, the majority of elemental spells are self regulated, and underpowered so they rarely deal exceeding amounts of damage.  If a party wide monk enchantment which gave the entire party significant reduction to all elemental damage, simular to the use of Aegis to overcome physical attacks, than elemental damage, and elementist could afford to deal more damage, in expectation that enemies who wish to survive a significant threat must bring the proper protection in order to survive it.  This is the direct cause of high recast, low damage yield, low DoT duration and radius.  This also plauges Paragon Shout and Chant abilities, all of these are perfect examples of self regulation, which players hate, because their favorite skills are naturally restricted, and their foe does not have to bring effective counters, since they arn't available and thus arn't neccessary.


 * Likewise, because ShadowSteps do not have a legitimate counter, they are self regulating, stripped of the opportunity of being great because they cannot be overcome by readily available and legitimate means. If Assassins need more evasive and surprise qualities to make up for their defense than they should have it.  And by introducing additional counter effects for well known and commonly used snaring skills against shadowsteps, they can easily be met with effective competition keeping them from being overly effective.  Simply think about it, if you can cut the distance an Assassin can shadowstep by the percent of reduced movement on any applicable skill, you easily limit the usefulness of their abilities.  Cripple reduces movement speed by 50%, add to that a reduce shadowstep distance of 50% and when an Assassin uses a shadowstep wile crippled, he only goes half the distance between them and the target, or can only use it at 50 lengths (half shortbow range).  Suddenly, the skills used to keep Warriors, Dervish, and anything else from rushing onto you work on shadowstepping too.


 * There are some additional measures to consider, Assassin can use Shadow Steps very quickly and right at the maximum range for most spells, making it difficult to set a snare on them before they initially engage you. This is why additional effects to popular effects like Ward Against Foes.  It ensures that there are effective preporational measures available to overcome a shadowstep before they can reach you.  Simular effects can be added to Traps as well, particularly crippling and knockdown traps, snaring shadowsteps which cross them.  And lastly, some simple additional effects, or new skills with effects which punish, reduce, or disable ShadowSteps with a Nature or Binding Ritual.  These are all abilities which apply to normal movement snarring, and movement boost countering, simply applying them to Shadowsteps in turn qualifies them to be used much more frequently.  You can easily reduce Deaths Charge and Dark Prison to 20 second recast times when opponents can not only use skills to prepare a counter, but use the same skills they are already using to counter normal movement, it may even qualify them to be used every 15 seconds.  And it would in turn qualify elite ShadowSteps like Aura of Displacement, Shadow Prison, and Beguiling Haze to be used at a 10 or even 7 second recast, because they should still be a significant advanatage and need to compensate for the new snares against them and the normal abilities in comparison.


 * When you factor in appropriate counters, as well as recognize the limitation of most unidirectional ShadowSteps, and the need Assassins have of surprise tactics and elusiveness along with some adjustments to make them less condusive with adrenaline skills, your allowed a shadowstep which is actually available enough to allow Assassins to continously and naturally step in and out of combat, staying only to unleash their effective attacks, and seriously satisfy player interests. Opponents will simply operate their usual counters to overcome the ability, and users can naturally accept the fact that their good and useful skill is beaten by good opponent preperation rather than inclusive restraint.--BahamutKaiser 23:34, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

List of Specific Changes here
This is Patccmoi's wishlist from the SP sin page. Reposted here for focused discussion. My comments in bold. If I don't say anything it means I agree.

Unsuspecting Strike : 2) 5/4. Lead Attack. If this attack hits, you strike for +19...31 damage. If your target was above 90% Health you deal an additional 15...75 damage and you lose 5E. (Makes it so it's more chainable with lower cost, but it still costs 10E when it's worth it, i.e. when the extra damage triggers).

Black Mantis Thrust : +8..20d -> +10..30d

'''Black Mantis Thrust is let down more by the lack of decent offhands than by anything else. More +damage would be nice, but low priority IMO.'''

Desperate Strike : Add +5..20d unconditional, 6r->4r

'''Would prefer the skill to do something more interesting. Say +5...20d unconditionally, +10...40d and you gain 15...75 health if you're below the health threshold.'''

Disrupting Stab : 5/.5/8, interrupt target foes action. If that action was a spell, target foe is dazed for 1..4 seconds. (this way, it would become an opener on caster doing no damage, so definitely not leading to a straight kill, but with the advantage of being fast and dazing your target for a very short duration, basically just for the length of your combo. Can be used for starting a combo on monks for instance or an ele without them being able to fight back too much while you combo. Would give a very needed tool to fight stuff like BSurges. You still have to interrupt a spell for the daze though, and on monks at least that's not always easy).

Fox Fangs : 8r->6r. 5..30d -> 10..40d

Golden Fox Strike : 8r->6r

Nine Tail Strike : 8r->6r. 15..40d -> 15..45d This whole 'unblockable' combo is nice because it's a bit more reliable, but atm it also doesn't do enough and not often enough. A small damage buff combined with a small recharge buff would help it be more interesting. I'd still leave it at 6r instead of 4r like most other lead-off because since it can't be blocked, it shouldn't be used quite as often.

Golden Lotus Strike : 10r -> 4r. 5..11E -> 2..7E. 5..20d -> 10..25d. The recharge for a lead is far too long and the damage is too weak atm. Energy gain over time would be similar this way, but you could use it more often.

Golden Skull Strike : 15r -> 12r. +10..25d. 4..9 daze -> 2..7 daze. This would give it a bit more damage in the combo, and while the daze is shorter it could be used a bit more often. If you use it along with other 4r lead/off, would be every 3 combos. If you use it with Fox series, every 2 combos.

Temple Strike : 20r -> 16r

Jagged Strike : +1..16d, or 'If target is already bleeding, deal +5..20d instead'

Jungle Strike : 10r -> 4r.

Leaping Mantis Strike : 8r -> 4r. .5 activation. 14..20d -> 10..30d.

If it gets fast activation and 4r the damage can stay the same IMO.

Wild Strike : 10..33d -> 10..40d OR .5 activation. 'If this attack hits or is blocked, target foe loses a stance'. Meaning that it always removes a stance unless it misses, which would at least help it get rid of block stances (but it would still be blocked and you'd still need to wait to continue your combo).

'''Would much prefer the former. Too much damage compression is bad for the game.'''

Golden Phoenix Strike 8r -> 6r. +10..30d -> +5..20d. Yes, it's a straight offhand on a 6s recharge, but it's expensive, doesn't do big damage and mostly can't be chained very well with others because of the 10E cost, and you can't do 'better' offhand-duals-offhand-duals with it considering no other straight offhand is on such a low recharge anyway. What it would give is a new tool to Assassins that want to just chain different duals to spike assist or have their effect. GPS-Critical Strike for 'free' damage spike, GPS-Shattering Assault for enchant removal, GPS-Horns for kd, etc. It could allow for a bar with 1 offhand and 2-3 dual attacks with other utilities. And while not being a bar that solo kill, doing something like Shadow Walk->GPS->Shattering Assault->Dash can very well lead to 'get in, kill, get out' if any1 else is assisting.

Mantis Touch. Personally i'd rework it like this: '5/.75/5. Must follow a Lead Attack. Shadowstep to target foe, that foe is crippled for 5..14s. This spell has half range'. This would allow to chain Dancing Dagger-Mantis Touch to a dual attack, since you'd be next to your target foe after. Note that you deal NO damage with this, so there's no way you can end up with a straight kill combo with it, and the shadowstep on low recharge is hardly abusable since it must follow a lead. It just allows a Deadly Arts sin to use Dual attacks. Would combo very well with Vampiric Assault for DA sin once it's out too. If the rework is too long or undesired though, 15r->5r would already do a lot for the skill.

'''Without the shadowstep I'd go either 5/.75/5 with full range, or 5/.25/5 with half range. Either would work for me. This is an odd skill. It doesn't really fit into regular dagger combos because it doesn't do damage, and it doesn't fit into deadly arts build since there isn't a non-dagger based DA dual. Mostly I think this will be useful in moebius builds, which is why I hope it gets buffed, because that's the kind of sin bar I like to see (nice mix of disruption and damage which actually takes some thought to play).'''

--Symbol 09:16, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed that BMS is low priority, but it's also a minor buff. Just to keep it in line with the rest imo.


 * Adding healing to Desperate Strike is a pretty nice idea. Can help sin in skirmishes too, and adds some extra 'utility'.


 * Maybe you're right for LMS, but i just feel the damage on this is so weak. But i guess with fast activation on short recharge it doesn't need to do so much damage.


 * You're likely right on Wild Strike that it can lead to too much damage compression. It's just that damage compression is one of the things that can make lead-offhand-duals more functional. But if you have compression both in leads and offhands, i agree that something like Leaping-Wild-DB can potentially spike too hard too fast. But it should at least do more damage, its damage is scaled as if it was a sword/axe attack, but dagger's base damage is much worse!


 * And while Mantis Touch is a fairly weird skill, if it would shadowstep you it would open sooo many builds. The fact that you could do Dancing-Mantis to prep for a dual without being subject to blocks or misses would help a LOT. But it would still tell the other team in advance who you're targetting with the dancing daggers hitting your target. But it would be great to combo with stuff like Shattering Assault for instance. But if it's at LEAST reduced to 5s recharge, it might be usable without shadowstepping. But it's very hard in practice to use Dancing Dagger as a lead for a combo that plans to use dagger attacks, simply because you're not next to your target afterwards. I'm just hoping that Mantis Touch could fill that gap. Patccmoi 19:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I think dancing daggers doesn't even have to hit to put the lead attack mark on your target.  So in theory you could dual without much warning at all, though you'd have to do some gymnastics to make sure the daggers missed.  --Symbol 21:17, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It's true that it doesn't need to hit (i used to run Deadly Arts Ganker in GvG when BSurge was 5E and i could DD archers through walls to follow with Entangling Asp->BSurge->Sig of Toxic Shock->Sig of Shadows), but i don't see what would be the point of making it miss. I mean, surprise dual attack but lose 100 damage? Doesn't seem like a good tradeoff to me... Patccmoi 15:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I support these skill changes, more variety in sins ftw.--Atlas Oranos 10:38, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If only Izzy actually read it and implemented it... It would greatly change the way sins are played. HTS 84.40.188.84 18:08, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Can't we give Lead attacks 25%/33% armor penetration? generally daggers are weak, if we make it so that Lead attacks are based off + damage and use the daggers base damage into account they become more potent damage. The problem of the buff would really be Unsuspecting Strike and Desperate strike, Unsuspecting generally can't be used Twice for high damage, so thats okay. And Desperate Strike could just have its damaged tweaked slightly.--Ensoriki 21:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

, ,
Shocking I know, but I think Twisting Fangs is easily countered now with Mending Touch, the only thing I would even suggest for this skill would be to possibly drop the recharge to 10.
 * No way, twisting is fine as is.  You get more +damage than eviscerate, two conditions, AND it's non elite.   --Symbol 13:28, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Caltrops has sucked for awhile, mostly because (again) of Mending Touch, I would suggest a 5 energy reduction and a recharge reduction to 10 aswell.

Now, the third, Disrupting Dagger, this skill is ok for interrupts, but it wont force a kill, I suggest giving a small Distracting Shot like application, making a skill recharge 5-10 seconds longer.
 * The only change disrupting dagger needs is a fix for its sluggishness, for some reason it's noticeably slower than other fast interrupts. --Symbol 13:28, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it needs the .5 activation stat like all of the other melee interrupts, then it'd be a good skill. Right now it simply attacks at the normal 1.33s Dagger speed I believe. --arredondo 21:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Just for clarification, are you talking about Disrupting Dagger or Disrupting Stab? skaspaakssa 02:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, I meant Disrupting Stab. Nevermind then.--arredondo 08:14, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

The main reason I would like these buffed is to possibly promote a different gameplay mechanic than simply pressing 1-6 for a sin to kill its target. I would rather see skill kills through damage+shutdown instead of button mashing.--Atlas Oranos 10:16, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Fangs isn't the strongest hands down anymore, but its still a good dual--Midnight08


 * Kinda thought I was reaching too far with Twisting, but the comment about the nonelite evisc... its true, but then again evisc is used first with skills behind it to spike, if twisting is at the end of a combo, you just have to hope your autoattacks kill your target. Also, how many eviscerates do you see removed time after time? It's not like that one evisc will kill your target, and I feel its the same with twisting, and the main thing that hurts it is the recharge. And the two conditions don't even matter as deepwound stacks over bleeding. Impale does more than this in my opinion...


 * You do realize, that since Fangs is a dual-attack, both hits cause the deepwound + bleeding + bonus damage. This means that the 2nd hit should be causing deepwound to kill if you had dropped their health enough before hitting them with it. Dargon 17:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I am, but simply making the bleeding stack over the deepwound would give this a slight boost. And this skill really seems like its just useful for bar compression, as you can use even critical strike+impale and get more damage.--Atlas Oranos 22:39, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * My problem with dagger is, when I attack, lets say a monk, or something similar, with fast recharging heals, Dagger doesnt help a damn if the skill recharges in 3-6 seconds, so you have to put more damage in, which makes all the crap we tend to rant about anyway. That was my reason behind the disable. But, atleast I'm glad someone agrees with me about caltrops...--Atlas Oranos 16:29, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, from what I'm reading this seems to be compensation for Mending Touch..... which is a perfectly viable counter, it isn't broken to have a counter to conditions, particularly when it is touch range in compensation for 2 conditions. It's alot better than impale simply because I don't have to put points in a 4th attirbute in order to use it, since Dagger, Critical and Shadow Art, or some other healing attribute are basically a must, bringing impale means more point spread, and likely means I woln't be getting 3 energy per critical as well.


 * I can agree that Twisting Fang could have a somewhat reduced recharge time, but it isn't like a neccessity. Assuming the foe doesn't have condition removal, it offers very little additional damage compared to other dual attacks, and being able to use it a little more isn't bad, considering they do have condition removal, if it is mending hand, they will probably thank you for the healing which basically counters the damage delt by the attack as well.  But Twisting is a Dual Attack, and it is in the Critical attribute so it isn't like it doesn't have related benifits.


 * Again, Caltrops isn't broken because foes are using condition removal, it isn't really any different than single condition removals, caltrops is a pretty frequent AoE cripple, even with condition removal it can take several casts to remove cripple from a group of melee chasers, if they all have condition removal, than they win because of preperation, not because this skill isn't good enough.


 * As for Distrupting Dagger, it is a 10 second interrupt, which is more often than most mesmers interrupt skills, also, though it does less damage, it does not have to hit a foe using a spell or skill to deal damage, so it offers a little straight damage even if it isn't being used right. It is Half Range, but that is plenty close for most assassin tactics, interrupting a foe every 10 seconds is pretty good.--BahamutKaiser 21:00, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe put TF back to 12 recharge? &mdash; Skuld 22:25, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The 10 second recharge on dagger does not do much if the skill recharges in 4. Imo caltrops costs too much to do something that can be done with a lead attack, and I dont see a reason to take it over one of those. A 20 second recharge really doesnt seem frequent when it can be easily stripped. My point with caltrops is that it does too little for too much. The 10 energy really hampers it, along with a 20 second recharge that really hurts it. The 1 energy different between 12 and 13 cs is often null as you can easily make up for it with bls. Impale is good even at low specs imo, so you can easily take it up to 7 and cs at 12 and have a fully functioning build.--Atlas Oranos 03:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * With the large number of condition removal skills available and their quick recharge, I honestly dont see whats wrong with taking caltrops down to something like 5.1/4.15. It could open up some builds as well.--Atlas Oranos 03:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, we need to clear caltropes up here, it is nothing like a crippling attack. Firstly, all assasins crippling attacks have conditions, so it isn't just about how good the skill is by itself, because it doesn't do it by itself. Second, Caltrops is ranged, meaning it can be done on a fleeing to catch up, or chasing foe before they reach you, this is much different than an attack because crippling them at point blank does not help you catch up, it only keeps them from getting away, and crippling them at point blank to get away means you are subject to any number of melee offenses when you turn your back and run. Than theres the simple fact that it is AoE, allowing you to snare a group of chasers or packed units.

Now there are plenty of other snares in the assassin line up, but the only one faily simular is Return, since it is an AoE cripple, and it has the very effective use of retreating shadowstep at the same time, for half the energy. If a discussion about how caltrops is expensive is going to start, this is where it is. With 15 second reuse, and crippling that last half of recharge time in duration, the ability offers a powerful shadowstepping aid as well as a very effective escape snare.

Caltrops is ment to be different though, so trying to make it nearly the same with slight differences makes skills monotinous. So I don't think the cost should be changed, 10 energy for one of the only ranged AoE cripples in the game (even if it is half), is still fairly unique, actually, are there any skills that produce a simular effect? We can check into Ice Spikes? The only adjustment I would consider for this skill is reducing the recharge time to match the duration, 15 seconds. This allows it to simply be continously applied, from a distance, to a group. It does not offer more crippling duration per energy cost, nor reduce the cost, only allowing it to be available repeatedly, compared to Elementist snares, which is the only thing close, it doesn't even share the damage, so having revolving application isn't bad. Since having to remove the condition every 15 seconds isn't a serious difficulty, it shouldn't be more effective against those who have countered it with condition removal.

I have to say here, that my Assassin and Dervish almost never have condition and hex removal, especially in large teams. There just isn't room for it in a packed skill bar, and I have to rely on teammates to share the skill. I find it very distrubing that this topic is leaning toward supporting condition application that is so strong that not having your own copy of mending hands means conditions will own you, forcing everyone to bring condition counters. Conditions are ment to be removable, and by trying to overpower them to make an impact even though they are ment to be defeated by condition removal, your really only gimping the gameplay with overly effective conditions that make condition removal a widespread neccessity instead of a moderate threat that should be addressed by 2 or 3 party members. Mending Hands is touch based for a reason.--BahamutKaiser 14:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * How is lowering the energy and recharge by 5 overpowered? You WANT to spend that much energy on a crap skill that will be removed the minute its applied? Siphon Speed punks this, Dash punks this, as does Dark Prison and Mantis Touch. The aoe is largely irrelevant unless you actually wait for your target to group up, which is stupid because you will have a harder time trying to bring him down. I dont see this as overpowering, the same way as I dont see crippling victory, freezing gust and other similar skills. Also, I dont see the point you are trying to make about gimping gameplay with cripshot and burning arrow builds running around. Dont make an exception for that.--Atlas Oranos 21:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Did you see where I suggested it to be 5.1/4.15?--Atlas Oranos 21:53, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * AoE application may be circumstantial, but it is an asset, so it does cost 10 energy for a reason. Being able to use it more often does not clip the cost so that is acceptable, but being able to cripple a group at range should not cost 5 energy, it is a very likely advantage when your trying to snare a group of melee units in a spike, a very common occurance.


 * When you figure in its attribute advantage, its ranged capacity, its AoE effect, and its relative duration, it is good enough, as I said, a counter to a condition is simply ment to beat it, and a good counter does not justify making it cheap and easy to use so you can fail to cause an impact anyway. Against a foe who is not prepared or quick to remove the snare, it works great, you can knock off 3 warriors easy and they will never catch up with you wile you run away.  I just can't agree on 5 energy, maybe you don't see it that way, maybe Izzy will agree with you, I don't think it is a problem, conditions arn't ment to be free, and AoE snares are naturally expensive.  I would rather see the AoE increased to nearby than see the cost down to 5 energy, it simply shouldn't be cheap.  If you need a cheap single unit cripple at range than use crippling dagger, it offers damage and quick reuse, you'll have to invest in deadly arts, but maybe that's a better option than spending 10 energy for AoE crippling.--BahamutKaiser 23:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it is, but the aoe effect is garbage when a sin is supposed to be after one target, its a rare chance that it will happen, and honestly, 10 energy for cripple that isnt covered is bs. Guess you are right about this skill working on idiots though.--Atlas Oranos 10:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, you seem to be completely ignoring the fact that any counter renders this skill useless, along with few ways for a sin to interrupt and keep condition removal from happening means you lose a skill slot that you could have spent on something more useful. I guess we get to keep another skill at a mediocre level.--Atlas Oranos 10:50, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, for the record, I wouldnt mind having the aoe removed for a lower cost, because the aoe is not a huge effect. Btw I didnt list crippling dagger for a reason, its conditional.--Atlas Oranos 10:52, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * And no, this discussion was not leaning towards conditions becoming overpowered, it was to improve a skill that barely sees alot of use because of other, better skills. You can sacrifice your condition removal because you would be in a large team, but I see not bringing any at all can be foolish, especially on a melee character. Its like saying blind is overpowered if you dont bring your own personal copy of condition removal.--Atlas Oranos 11:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

A counter is suppose to render something useless, if it doesn't the counter isn't good enough, the same thing applies to simple blocking against attacks, or dazing a caster, that is how a counter works, if the foe brings the proper counters and uses them properly, than your ability because ineffective, if they don't their screwed, that is how strategy works.

Your not going to defend your case by insulting anyone who stands adjacent to eachother either, because it happens all the time, alot of people like to mouse their character around and take the same paths, and most pros coordinate on the same target, meaning all melee units are going to be surrounding one unit, it is very easy to get more than one opponent, and if your not expecting that, than you should bring one of those "better" alternatives. There are effective uses for an AoE cripple, and if you don't need it, than theres no reason not to bring one of those other options. This remains a valuable aternative for particular use, and it does not need to be changed into something we already have otherwise just because a counter defeats it the way it is SUPPOSE to. There is a difference between an unbalanced skill, and one which simply has a better function for your needs. BTW, mantis touch follows a lead, your simply overlooking the conditions you accept and nagging one the ones you dislike, crippling dagger will fulfill everything you need from a half ranged cripple for a single target.--BahamutKaiser 15:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * One, I didnt insult, if you know the aoe is coming its stupid to come exactly down the same path. I don't see the point in arguing with a pro example, it will get drawn. Or removed almost immediately. Two, I didn't argue about counters defeating it. The 20 second recharge is what cripples it, thats all I'm saying. Three, no, I am not overlooking conditions I accept, I know it requires a lead, and its still better. If anything just a recharge of 15 will do. With condition removal so easily available and recharging in 4-6 seconds I dont see whats wrong with it. Oh well, guess we just gotta wait till Izzy comes back from where he is.--72.84.76.135 05:27, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You obviously didn't catch this the first time, so I will say it again, when you are attacked by multiple melee characters, AoE crippling is a very real asset. Crippling one foe isn't enough to get them off of you, and if the opponent is anything at all Melee intensive, crippling multiple foes is the difference between escaping one menacing warrior and dieing to the other 2 assassins and dervish, or escaping an entire group of muggers.  It is a very obvious reality that if more than one melee character attacks you, they will be in range of an AoE effect, ensuring that the entire group gets snared.  And as crippling is most effectively used to either snare a foe, or cripple a melee attacker, it is even more relavent.--BahamutKaiser 04:27, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem is that Return is easily superior in this sort of defense. Offering a snare while escaping melee range. So it is a costly defense in a line with better choices if you need defense...--Atlas Oranos 22:03, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Return is better defensively, but has very little offensive application, making it perfectly balanced, not a problem, again, pointing out only one side of the situation makes these misguided arguements pointless.--BahamutKaiser 00:16, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, Im getting sick of you calling my argument misguided. I pointed out BOTH SIDES, offense and defense. Offense is extremely limited, defense is extremely limited. What more do you want me to say huh?--71.251.177.38 16:48, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * There's no controversy here. Caltrops is bad because uncovered cripple for 10e and on a 20s recharge is horrendous.  No one gives a shit about the adjacent AoE because the chances of you catching more than one person in it often enough to matter are minisicule.  5e 1/4s 10r, and it starts looking decent.  --Symbol 20:29, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you.--71.251.177.38 22:29, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Neither offensive or defensive application are "extremely" limited, and the use of both is an asset by itself, since melee cripples do not protect you from being hit or snared the same way. I already made it clear how AoE can be used and situations which are not only existant, but natural. Where the rubber meets the road is that an alternate for repeated mid-ranged cripple application is already available, and disrespecting the value of AoE, the utility, and availability of this spell doesn't prove anything, it is just denial. Seeing both sides is seeing the strengths and weaknesses, and as long as your denying all the strengths, your not seeing boths sides, and I challenge you to prove you did otherwise. And trying to intergect with cripple covering is ridiculous, very few abilities naturally cover cripple in one skill, and the use of a ranged cripple effect vs condition removals are just a natural weakness of any condition, along with most cripple effects. When you list only weaknesses compared to other skills without listing the additional stipulations and circumstances and disadvantages those have as well, your not proving anything, you might as well claim an instant killing sword is better than a gun just because it's killing power is certain.... wile simply overlooking the advantage of range.--BahamutKaiser 00:59, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I kind of agree with Bahmut Kaiser. Although this skill sucks in most things it shines in AB because as you get near the end you won't be near your party as much so return isn't that good there unless its a monk and crippling dagger sucks if your facing more than one person and your running this is where this shines you snare and you run your probably free =)! 21:51, 3 October 2007 (EST)
 * Yes AoEing people with snares is really important in organized pvp right? I'm not closing my eyes on the aoe aspect, I'm merely saying that an adjacent range does not justify such a high recharge and cost. It's nice but it is by no means the appeal of the skill. Sorry but all you are doing is saying the same thing with a different twist, so please, don't say I'm not proving anything when all you can offer are theoretical uses for a skill. Most of the time people wont wait for the aoe to become prevalent to snare someone. The only thing you have proved is this skill is great against melee's that don't know that bringing self condition removal when you cant rely on a monk is good. That is one occasion where the skill shines, and don't you think people will spread out after you use it the first time? It may look good on paper but in practice other skills outdo it.--71.251.177.38 18:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * To the above poster, return is prime for that. Melee trains can be escaped easily with that skill. However, you could not be near an ally(though I find that extremely odd, being an ab and all), thats when Caltrops wins out.--71.251.177.38 18:53, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I can agree to the part where Adjacent may not be enough range, and if not, perhaps nearby would be better, but I cannot agree with trying to short change the function with less cost and or lower recharge wile overlooking the advantage of AoE use. If it isn't being used on AoE opponents, than using it at all is fairly pointless, Crip Dagger is entirely better even with minut investment, and plenty of other alternatives exist for crippling with assassin.  This should shine as an option for AoE crippling because that is it's unique value, not compete with every other crip technique for speed and cost when it clearly offers a totally alternate function.


 * Beside that, not every build, and in some cases professions, offer alot of skill versatility for self maintenance, it is hard enough to fit healing skills on something like an Assassins bar, let alone condition removal. And I don't know if I mentioned this either, but Caltrops can't be blocked by blind, unlike any competing crip attacks, beyond the distance advantage as well.


 * I'm not against improving the spell, I'm against shifting focus on a unique skill with a sea of existing alternates. Even adding damage would be better than trying to make it fast and cheap.--BahamutKaiser 02:43, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I can agree to disagree with this one, so ok. But you did raise one point that I have been talking about during the whole debate: If it isn't being used on AoE opponents than using it at all is fairly pointless. I was trying to improve it for single target use really, seeing as everything else is conditional and condition removal is multiclassed and recharges fast now.--Atlas Oranos 10:39, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Symbols Assassin Utility Suggestions
The following is a shortlist of changes intended to give sins a few powerful, flexible utility skills comparable in strength to a warrior's bull's strike or disrupting chop. The idea is to reward player ability by making them depend on what your opponent is doing, rather than create artificial hoops that you have to jump through.

Assassin:

Disrupting Stab: 5e 1/2s 8r. Increase spell disable to 5...20s OR remove disable and make it inflict dazed for 1...4s if it interrupts a spell.

Leaping Mantis Sting: 5e 1/2s 8r. If it hits a moving foe you do an additional +10...40 damage and inflict cripple for 3...15s.

Mark of Instability: 10e 1/4s 15r. Change functionality to "Interrupt target foe. Target foe is hexed with Mark of Instability for 20 seconds.  The next time target foe is hit by a dual attack that foe is knocked down"

Exhausting Assault: Let it follow both a lead or an offhand.

Viper's Defense: 5e 15r. Change to "For 5 seconds the next attack against you is blocked. If you block an attack skill your attacker is knocked down and poisoned for 5...20 seconds"

Rationale: Buffing interrupts by strengthening their conditional effects is a good way to reward skill. LMS offers damage compression, a snare, and big +damage should you meet the condition. The recharge is long enough to make it worth your while to land this on a moving foe instead of spamming it on recharge. MoI offers bar compression in the form of a full range, unerring skill interrupt, hex fodder for your black xxx attacks, and an additional KD for your combo. The change to exhausting assault just makes it usable in builds without a lead attack. Viper's defense is like shield bash, with the trade-off for the lower recharge being that you could waste it on a wand hit if you aren't careful. A decent self defense option is essential if you want a 70 AL melee class running around in the frontlines. The skill would also be useful offensively if you want to prevent your combo from being interrupted...good for punishing rangers who dshot/savage as soon as you come within range.

Overall the goal is to push for versatile, toolbox skills rather than rigid, instagib combos. --Symbol 21:35, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This is nothing like adding player ability into those skills. Those are nothing but straight buffs. 69.137.78.47 22:54, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The attack skills don't need their mechanics changed since they already reward skill. All that's needed is a buff to their conditional effect to make them worth taking.  MoI...does an interrupt not require skill?  Viper's defense...does blocking an attack skill on reaction or by prediction not require skill?  The answer to both those questions is "yes", which makes me wonder why the hell you're complaining.  --Symbol 23:28, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You don't have to successfully interrupt to get a hex like that on. Just look at Web of Disruption.  If you were to add "If a skill was interrupted..." then that would most definitely require skill.  But just adding an interrupt to it is nothing but a buff, making it better, but not require play ability.  As for Viper's Defense, I didn't notice the "attack skill" part, and thought you wanted it to KD the next time someone tried to attack you.  But yes, I think that would definitely add more complexity and difficulty to a class that is too easy to play.  Maybe then all the little kids won't just go assassin and kill most of the decent players. 69.137.78.47 03:46, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm, this Viper's Defense might be a bit too powerful on monks. Why go /W for Shield Bash when you can go /A and have Return and Viper's? Kabu To 06:56, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
 * His idea is to make the +dmg on skills conditional also, with added dmg. Disrupting Stab needs to be fixed, hard to interupt things at regular attack speed, not many sin attack speed buffs. Jungle Strike's recharge needs to be fixed, 10 second recharge is rather annoying when running with Leaping Mantis Sting or Trampling Ox. I would rather it have a recharge of 8 than a 1/2 second cast. If they really want sins to stop using ias, then they should raise the recharge on lead attacks and give them 1/2 cast. Lead attacks have to short of a recharge, which sins don't benefit from (Jagged Strike, Black Mantis Thrust, Dancing Daggers, Desperate Strike; this will never see any love, Golden Fox Strike, etc). A 1/2 cast time Leaping Mantis, with a recharge of 10, would work well with Jungle Strike and Trampling Ox. I usually never run Jungle Strike. --74.171.70.24 00:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, I love running AoD. But it is very odd having to double click the small icon to release your enchantment. Mabye A-net can add in a hotkey for this? To release maintained enchantments? AoD sins are sure to be seen more then. Shadow Walk + Dash are better for ganking, as Shadow Walk has no cast time, and you can begin your chain quicker, while you have to "cast" AoD. Shadow Walk is also a non elite, allowing for the use of another elite. Many people just see that there are to many problems with AoD to run a very effective build. As of now, SP sins are to stay the most popular. --74.171.70.24 00:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

inb4MoebiusExhauster. No but seriously, wasn't that one of the main reasons for turning it into "follows a lead attack"? Add in PI and Frustration from an outside Mes and you have Über shutdown (KD, damage, exhaustion...). NeonCrusader 00:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually I think it was to promote lead attacks. Moebius was one of the reasons I wanted this change, because that sort of disruption + damage template is the kind of niche a frontline sin could fill without being retarded. I don't see it as overpowered, if a target is below 50% using horns is much more effective, and above 50% an interrupt on a 8sec recharge isn't all that dangerous.  --Symbol 02:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

What if D stab disabled all opponents skills on interrupt for 1..4 seconds could be used very skillfully and give assassin more potential in more places on the field, i also like the idea of giving maintained enchantments a hotkey for release.75.37.23.123 05:07, 3 November 2007 (UTC)