Talk:Signet of Illusions

Curious...
I see that it's already mentioned about how this skill works with Sunspear skills (as is denoted on the actual page) but I was curious if anyone had any information about how or if it affects Alliance skills? I didn't bother to cap this because it didn't seem very useful, but with the upcoming change to the skill, I might actually give it a shot... so I was just curious about the Alliance skill thing. ~ J.Kougar   01:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, it applies to Kurzick / Luxon skills, I've updated the note. -- Gordon Ecker 01:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm, that's a good use for it, then. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 07:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Double the pleasure, double the fun
... doublemint gum. yeah. two spells instead of one is nice; makes room for spell combos. I still don't see it being used too much, though. -- Mafaraxas  09:11, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 3 spells now :D --Lou-Saydus[[Image:User_Lou-Saydus_Sig_Image.png|How dare you put that damned dirty thing on me!|19px]] 18:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't get it...
Is it just me, or is this still a terrible skill with little purpose, but to be a novelty? Readem (talk *gwwcontribs ) 22:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This is amusing. I saw this post earlier today and joined PvX to post one of my builds based on this skill, and then to respond here... but I just now noticed that you are the person who first welcomed me to PvX and was so kind.  :)  Guess it's a little silly to respond here now and post the build I was going to point out earlier today, but since I had originally planed to do so I will.  :)  [Here is one of the builds I made] that focus on this skill (after the change).  ~  J.Kougar  [[Image:UserJKougar sig.gif]] 05:43, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

or simply this. fast cast monk ftw. could still need a buff to or so. - Y0_ich_halt 23:32, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Or you could merely put some points into prot, and get a good elite, and possibly even be good. Readem (talk *gwwcontribs ) 23:37, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * try before flaming. having 15 prot, heal, inspi and df at the same time outscored teams with two monks today. zb prots, that is. i watched them. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 23:39, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * lolololol, you think I haven't tried? I have tried ever single random imba skill cmbination in the game. 15 prot isn't even the break point for any of those skills. Monks only run 14 lulz... Readem (talk *gwwcontribs ) 23:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * what the hell is up with you? o.O i use 15 because i don't care about 35hp in ra and i like round numbers. it's not imba, it's underpowered. that's why i said it should be at 1-4 or at least 1-3 spells. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 23:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I just said that SoI sucks. You can run it, I don't care. When I say that 15 hits none of the break points, I am just be honest with you. I do not flame people, I am just harshly blunt. You are taking this too seriously man. Readem (talk *gwwcontribs ) 23:52, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * ok, we're cool then. i still think SoI's not completely useless now anymore :) - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 00:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * SoI is not completely useless, you can equip all sorts of spells without spending attribute points (except in Illusion) at all. Combine it with Inspired Hex/Enchantment and Arcane Thievery/Mimicry and you have a nice build.
 * SoI and FC is why Mesmers make better nukers than Elementalists. <>Sparky, the Tainted 04:13, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * On that note, I thought of an excellent skill combination: Harshly Blunt and Somewhat Mistakenly Stupid .... (no sig.)

Bug
about that bug with +1procs... shouldn't it technically work, if the bonus kicks in on sig of illusions, not on one of the spells affected? so that, say, you cast sig with 16+1 illu, so your next two spells have 17 attrib instead of the normal 16. from game system, that might be possible, if the sig is programmed to store the illu attrib you had when activating it. whatcha think? - Y0_ ich_halt  15:46, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That bug statement basically means 'that'. SoI isn't affected by +1procs though it should be. (Terra Xin 10:35, 13 October 2007 (UTC))
 * and how can we test that? i'll make some tests and check if it's really not affected... maybe ppl just had bad luck. - Y0_ ich_halt  [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px|Have a look at my page]] 11:30, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry but alot of disagree from my side, first of it only gives +1 to illusion spells, so no +1 for divine favor/fire magic or whatever you plan to use. Second it only gives +1 on a 20% chance, this means that you can get +1 illusion when your illusion spells triggers but theres still a 20% chance that you will get it on the second spell you cast, which mostly never will be an illusion spell. And third of, listen carefully, Signet of illusion is NOT a spell and will NEVER ever get the +1 illusion from any staff/wand/focus as they only gives it to spells. So don't waste your time :) --Cursed angel 14:22, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * nope. the +1s affect all skills. and it seems you didn't quite get what i meant. think of a build only consisting of sig of illusions and divine favor skills. you have an illusion magic staff with "master of my domain" (20% chance of item's attribute+1). now, the question is, if this bonus triggers on sig of illusions, would that be recognized as "SoI has been used with 17 illusion magic" by the game and therefore activate the next three spells (or 2 if the buff gets reverted) with their attribute at 17, because your illu was 17 when you used SoI? because as i image SoI is coded, it should. and that's what i'm gonna test. - Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px|Have a look at my page]] 17:08, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I wasn't the one who added the note but I have tested this before. What happens is that you are affected by SoI and whatever spells you use while under SoI will use Illusion Magic's current attribute, not the attribute that SoI was activated under. You can test this by going into an area and adding attribute points into illusion magic while testing the same spell. The anomaly is true at the point of testing, I tried to cast the same skill 100 times myself with no luck at getting the +1 proc. I also tried it using SoI and then use an illusion magic spell multiple times, and the same thing happened. The anomaly may have something to do with SoI's bug that involves it ignoring the secondary effects of skills. NB: The +1Procs did originally say "20% while activating 'skills' with 'all' procs, but that has recently been removed from the description. In saying that, I have tested SoI and it is affected by +1procs, but the anomaly suggests that the 'spells' casted while under SoI ignore +1procs.(Terra Xin 16:27, 22 October 2007 (UTC))
 * that's stupid... - Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px|Have a look at my page]] 17:31, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Are you sure it's a bug? I mean, technically, it's supposed to just use the attribute. That means that it shouldn't look at anything else...145.94.74.23 19:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Current State Nov 2007
What does everyone think of this signet since the latest updates and the bug fix? I've begun to use it much more, but still with gimmicky builds, but I like how much fun the skill has brought to my mesmer :) My only thought is that it still is kind of a pain to keep casting the signet over and over.  It doesn't really make it overpowered (since it recharge is so low anyway), just less annoying to cast it.  What do you think of making this something like an elite stance/skill? 75.73.14.37 04:13, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Wont they have to change the name from "Signet" of Illusion to something else, like Mantra of Illusions maybe :P Aljazya 07:03, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

it's also annoying to cast heals so often as a monk, they should just have a stance that auto-heals your party. see how your logic is flawed? Use it how it is.

With allegiance title track
I made some tests with differrent skills from different titles tracks for these results ; they are slight variations between some of them, but i think the general information is fine like that. lussh 12:17, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Cry of Pain with five in illusion magic and the signet deals 60 damages, wich is the middle between the ranks 3 (56 damages) and the rank 4 (64 damages). lussh 19:05, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


 * For Nightfall and Eye of the North title skills, effective attribute rank = title rank * 1.5, rounded down. For Factions title skills, effective attribute rank = title rank * 1.25, rounded down. I think the fractional "effective title rank" values are messy, and I dislike the hypothetical higher ranks. -- Gordon Ecker 04:21, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
 * great, they removed the main bug :) but did i understand this right? you can get a higher rank than it would actually be with a maxed title of the corresponding track? 0ô —Zerpha[[Image:UserZerpha The Improver sig.png|talk]] The Improver 21:06, 25 January 2008 (UTC) 21:05, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

it did yes. lussh 22:12, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * example: SoI with 16 illusion -> Cry of Pain 102 damage (KILL MementoMori 23:34, 17 April 2009 (UTC))

Err quick question...
How well to heroes use this skill? Like for example, if you have all illusion magic attribute skills except for say Orison of Healing would the hero be smart enough to use Signet of Illusions on this non attribute skill? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:202.7.166.171 (talk).
 * I highly doubt a hero would be able to use such a complex skill... especially because they cannot even use wards right... I spose you could alter their build so they HAD to use it right... but to do that would be to completely decimate your chances of a decent build... best way to go is not to give it to heroes... but, if you must, I suggest forcing them to activate this signet every third spell... so yeah... course... this is all speculation... my apologies if the remarks made here are stupid and/or degrading... Ζεφ  01:41, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

EotN pve skills
can anyone else see a mesmer using this at 13-16 illusion magic then use ursan blessing? May be useful until you get to that rank..--<font color="Blue">Ra <font color="Orange">ph  <font color="Blue">Tal <font color="Orange">ky  21:44, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * ursan blessing is not a spell.lussh 21:45, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Besides, Ursan Blessing is an elite skill, just as Signet of Illusions, so i don't know how you would mix the 2 together. Maybe with arcane Mimicry... --Nemeon Lion 19:03, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

It won't work since none of them are spells. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:85.145.1.60 (talk).

Concise description

 * Is it just me or is the concise description actually longer than the normal description? --Chiaro 02:12, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
 * that's the case more often that you'd expect. - Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 14:20, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

HILARIOUS PVP
This is SOO hilarious in RA PVP when used along with Arcane Theivery/Arcane Larceny and you steal their spells only to use them against them at yer Illusion max attribute.. I was spamming 'Ride The Lightning' on a PBAoE Ele that killed me to his demise, after my team res'd me..."priceless" Mesmers Hooo! LMAO FTW! -Adamaxis 17:15, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If I were the devs, I would make the concise desc's purely numerical.24.56.247.13 23:47, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Additional use
This elite is quite often used in 600/Hero smite builds.

Giving your Mesmer Hero Smiter easily 16/16 in Smiting and Protection Prayers while using Illusion of Weakness to provide additional durability against Reversal of Damage. Common sight in CoF-rushs. Pudding 00:22, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Avatars
I don't suppose a Mesmer/Dervish with 16 Illusion Magic could bring along an Avatar as an Elite and use Arcane Mimicry to copy Signet of Illusions from an ally, so that they can use said Avatar as if it were at 16 Mysticism? They would have to bring the Avatar as their Elite because AM cannot copy Forms. However, I'm not sure if this would work, since the SoI description says it's the next two spells.

Can anyone test this?
 * "Your next 1...3...3 Spells use your Illusion attribute instead of its..." <- avatar =/= spell. - Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 21:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well...For one...Avatars are considered Forms.Not spells. However you could make an entire build based on this one Skill with spells and don't have to worry about balancing it all out. For Ex: Signit of illusions; Empathy; Backfire; Flare; Obsidan flesh; Tenali's prision; Lightning strike; And any other skill you want. just have 16 Illusions, 12+ Fast casting and all you have to worry about is Casting Signit every Three spells. 70.121.168.43 20:18, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well... I would also worry about how I'd get Obsidian Flesh, an Elite, on that bar.--99.241.76.164 23:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, there's always Arcane Mimicry. Although TWO people with Obsidian Flesh at the same time.... 24.8.116.77 01:57, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Half casting/recharge time
Would this trigger HSR/HCT illusion effects for non-illusion spells too? -- <font color="Black">Karasu (talk) 12:50, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't believe so. I think it only replaces attribute values of the spell with that of your illusion magic attribute. Guildwarsrunner 04:24, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
Signet of Illusions with 16 in Illusion is only creating a level 20 Assassin. I thought 16 gave a level 21 Assassin? --Karia 08:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

17 illusion does, use sweets (KILL MementoMori 14:31, 10 February 2009 (UTC))
 * They flattened out progression of most title skills in the August 8th, 2008 update, buffing them at lower ranks, keeping them the same at maximum rank and nerfing them above max rank. -- [[Image:User Gordon Ecker sig.png]] Gordon Ecker (talk) 03:02, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

question...
i tried to test, but I guess i fail at keeping time. if you were to have mantra of persistence with SOI and steal a Hex will the Hex last longer? 00:08, 12 September 2009 (UTC) If you stole Blurred Vision, it will use your illusion magic attribute, but it does not change the fact that it is a Water Magic hex. --158.121.88.54 20:33, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * if the hex you stole is illusion magic based then yes71.133.70.250 23:25, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * but why wouldn't it work on any hex? it's supposed to use your illusion attribute. I don't get this skill dam it. 70.135.120.83 20:26, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * "any Illusion Magic Hex you cast lasts 20...44...50% longer."

Maintained enchantments
How does this work with maintained enchantments? If you cast a maintained enchantment while SoI is active, will the maintained enchantment, as long as it's still maintained, keep the higher attribute? --136.142.214.19 15:23, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's correct. <font color="#000999">Ninjas In The Sky  15:24, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * So mesmers are able to cast rank 16 mending !!!!!!!!!! --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:192.54.144.229 (talk).
 * yep, they use it in 600/smite for the smiter if he doesn't need an elite. Rhonin Soren 18:13, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

PvE Title Tracks Chart and 21 Illusion Magic
As the Signet of Illusions page lists itself, +1 procs don't work on spells under the effects of Signet of Illusions. Is there an alternate way to obtain 21 Illusion Magic, or was the value extrapolated and listed without consideration of this issue? MA Anathe 01:09, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * There is no way to obtain 21 in an attribute without a triggered +1 proc. It is most likely an oversight as you suggested. -~=Ϛρѧякγ  User Sparky, the Tainted charr sig.PNG  (τѧιк)  01:58, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

No attribute procs really a bug?
"Bug. While Signet of Illusions is active, +1 attribute procs, such as those from Staff Wrappings of Mastery and "Master of My Domain" inscriptions, will not affect spells of any attribute including Illusion Magic." This skill basically makes all your skills use your Illusion Magic attribute, and I assume that it calculates the attribute at the time of this skill cast - attribute bonuses won't affect skills cast afterward because, in effect, the attribute level of those skills has already been "set". Don't know if this is really a bug so much as a mechanic of the skill. -- <font color="Black">Gah<font color="Black">_  17:56, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Since the Update
Now that Mantra of Celerity's functionality is almost the same as Sig of Illusions (changes all signets you use while under its effects to your FC attrib), I decided to try it with SoI and no investment in Illusions to see if the translation would occur twice. I threw on MoC, SoI, and some AoE spells to see if I could rain hell in PvE. Sadly, MoC only effects the affected spell number of SoI (ie, it makes it affect the next 3 spells), but the spells themselves still cast at your Illusions rank. I don't know how to edit pages (in fact this is my first wiki post ever), but if someone wants to devote the time it might be worth noting. Also, sorry for all the acronyms haha.--Ph03n1x 02:12, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Oops. Totally meant Symbolic Celerity, not Mantra of.--Ph03n1x 08:32, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Minions?
For Me/N with 16 illusion magic and zero death magic If you cast spell that animate minions does the cap of the number of minions change to the rank of illusion magic for the spell? K61824 18:04, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It is the Death Magic attribute itself, not the spell, that controls the minion cap, so you aren't going to get much use out of SoI with minions. Guildwarsrunner 23:51, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Though Arcane Mimicry on an ally with Flesh Golem can be fun. Throw in Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support, an Asura Summon, a Summoning Stone, maybe even a pet and you have yourself your own little army :P--Ph03n1x 08:46, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Me/N/R? You'd need to have R sub for the pet(don't necessarily need atts), but N sub for the death atts to make short bus not suck. Late reply, but meh. 65.186.68.40 03:36, 20 June 2011 (UTC)