User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Update20070809

Please discuss this update here. ~Izzy @-&#39; 21:10, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Crude Swing + Frenzy anyone? Helps make the skill viable though. --Deathwing 22:58, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * functionality changed to: Attack all adjacent foes. Each foe you hit is struck for 1..20 damage. You have -40 armor while activating this Skill.
 * Hammers use Flail since a long time anyway =p It's a good change to Crude Swing definitely though. Its activation is less than a second anyway. Won't make it much more interesting in PvP cause of the nature of the skill, but it's a good buff for it in PvE Patccmoi 23:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Main goal was for PvE, to allow the Hammer guy to do some Aoe stuff. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:02, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Think it might well have the opposite effect. The -> chain won't work any better, and I don't see it used else where. Backsword
 * That combo exists simply to prevent melee from interrupting Crude Swing as you use it. Now that it's not easily interruptible, you can sub out your elite for something more useful.--Skye Marin 00:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You mean like a good AoE KD that is rapidly charged by Crude swing? -Warskull 03:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Warriors in PvE are the ones that take the brunt of the damage. A warrior that spams a skill that makes it take double damage isn't the way to go. 76.64.191.219 03:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A warrior that just spams a skill at all isnt a good warrior. Most PvE wars know they tou have to be aware of your surroundings and situation when using skills. A better War would probably use this when you'r monk has you under prot to gather quick addren and pull initial aggro, then focus on other skills and use this when they need to pull aggro back. --Midnight08 04:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The melee won't hit you when you have them all KD'd by Earthshaker. This skill was just fine before, still good in PvE now. Meh. --TimeToGetIntense 05:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I've had a ton of fun with this, Augie gave me a build he came up with and I've been playing it in RA. basicly it's this. . You use Back breaker, then For great justice, then another skill normally crushing blow, this triggers enraging charge, and if you have 14 str poof you have 10a and back breaker is ready again, as soon as they stand up you kd them again for another 4s, takes some good timing but it's loads of fun. ~Izzy @-&#39; 05:07, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * So you can double the gain off Enraging Charge and recharge BB before they get up? :O btw leave it to Augie to make up a build like that... :P --TimeToGetIntense 05:32, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I was using Enraging and FGJ before this update. It helped to get Eviscerate charged up in no time.  Something which is needed in PvE when your going from mob to mob and having to let your adrenalin reset.  Now this combo is even more elite.  Great stuff :D --SK 07:41, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * decreased casting time to 3 seconds; decreased recharge time to 15 seconds.
 * Wow, I guess this is supposed to put the last nail in the coffin of rit spike with all the new exhaustion skills. Overkill to a skill that needs reworking, not buffing.  Now that you told everyone that rit spike is dead, what would be the point of brining this skill then? Obie Quiet 22:15, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * it's uber for pve now. still no use in pvp. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 22:16, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Because it was underpowered for a ELITE spirit ~ Kurd [[Image:User Kurd sig.png]] 22:23, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * yup. that's not what i'd use for a gvg though. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 22:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually it has good potential combined with Arcane Languor, and now that it's reliable this combo might prove interesting. Tbh though, if the combo becomes viable, the border between viable and overpowered will be thin because if you can fairly easily exhaust out someone, well he's worse than dead. Will have to see how it plays, but the overall buff to elite spirits makes them MUCH more interesting. Patccmoi 22:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * agree. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 22:32, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Now this and the other elite spirits are actually playable. --Worf 12:48, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't forget, though, that Equinox only works on spells, not Binding Rituals. Kstarfire 10:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * decreased recharge time to 12 seconds; decreased duration to 1..8 seconds; increased run speed to 33%.

Ummm awsome for runners? I like it, im pretty sure this is the best elite stance for running ever.--72.74.237.104 01:24, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I wonder if raising the duration a few seconds more would be overpowered. 1..10 or 11 seconds(adding a proper recharge with the change as well)? To go from 17 to 8 seconds seems kind of harsh. Xitoahc 01:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You can maintain it more easily now. It's meh, doesn't compare to the offensive ranger elites (although... it isn't meant to). It (still) won't see much use outside of RA. - Auron 02:55, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I like the change, although I agree it won't see any more use because of it. A fun skill to play around with, if nothing else. Arshay Duskbrow 01:41, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * request. make it back to 20 sec. duration, keep it there, then change what you want, some runners relied on thsi skill

Any chanse this skill can work like "For Great Justice!" and double any form of adren intake? Currently it does NOT work with Enraging Charge and such, which would make it at least better than the non-elite shout. Kenshin 02:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to try this on a monk and see how it goes. Who hates running monks? --Shadetz X 23:31, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * liked it on the first watch, but then i remembered Enchanted Haste also got that buff making Mo/D better again, as those also have anti-kd while running. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 23:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I want to see how much energy on average I can gain from getting hit by elemental damage. --Shadetz X 23:39, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * yup, it rocks concerning energy. but overall it's less universality than Mo/D. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 23:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Probably a good option on an RA Monk with Fire seeing such a huge buff in this update. Maybe good on GvG Monks if Fire Magic really catches on there too. --TimeToGetIntense 05:30, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Gained 12 energy from Dancing Daggers lol... --Shadetz X 02:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Seems good for pve getting constantly wanded all the time should give all the energy you need :).--Diddy Bow 11:54, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

The lower recharge helps, but it isnt enough. The suggestions people made of making it damage on interrupt would help this skill more than a lower recharge imo.--Atlas Oranos 00:30, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. As I say here (at the bottom), this was the wrong way to buff Punishing Shot. It needs additional on-interrupt damage. Recharging 3 seconds faster is not going to make this skill see any more use. I really appreciate you being willing to listen to us about this, and I hope you will please consider adding conditional on-interrupt damage. Arshay Duskbrow 01:17, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Punishing shot is a lost cause. When it is good it starts to become way too much of a threat with ranger spikes. -Warskull 07:34, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * How would damage on interrupt make it too much of a threat?--Atlas Oranos 14:29, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Gotta agree with that, +damage on interrupt DOESN'T affect Ranger spike. It just makes it more... Punishing? I wouldn't say that the recharge buff isn't good though, it NEEDED to be as low as Savage before it could even be considered. Now just double the +damage on interrupt, and you got a perfectly viable option to other common Ranger elites and you'll be able to run a bar with Punishing-DShot instead of Savage-DShot and have room for an extra non-elite. Punishing-DShot is still viable now, but mostly if your build can't find use for a better elite (which isn't that common considering Burning Arrows is also in Marks and soooo good) Patccmoi 17:57, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

As said in another section, if you kept everything but made it diable skills for a period of time, like d-shot, I might use this. Sword.wind. 04:06, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That's an excellent idea as well, and obviously won't influence its spike power at all. Arshay Duskbrow 06:22, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * So, a reduction to 5e and +damage on interrupt, just extra damage on interrupt, or make it somewhat like dist shot.--Atlas Oranos 00:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Too many people are under the false impression that Punishing Shot needs to be a spike skill. It's an interrupt with 5 recharge guys, stop crying. Maybe you should make an interrupt ranger, you'll find they're quite supposed to be used instead of touch rangers and thumpers. Shard 20:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If I want a 5 second interrupt, I'll take Savage Shot. There is absolutely no reason to tie up your elite slot with Punishing Shot at the moment. Also, you apparantly failed to perceive that we are asking that it be buffed in ways that will not affect its spiking ability. Honestly, I'm confused at how you missed that, but... Arshay Duskbrow 23:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You're asking for a buff that would enable ranger spike, you just don't know it. Dual shot followed immediately with punishing shot is one of the oldest ranger spike combos, now that you also have GFTE!, OoV, Anthem of Envy, and Nightmare Weapon in the game you really don't want to start adding bonus damage on to punishing shot. --Tankity Tank 00:55, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Another one! What part of on-interrupt bonus or disable don't you get?? Is it really that hard to understand? Arshay Duskbrow 06:04, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Paragon
Disappointed. --Deathwing 22:53, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Be happy everytime these guys get balanced its in a negative way ~ Kurd [[Image:User Kurd sig.png]] 23:08, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * awe got buffed. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 23:10, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The famous Shock and Awe build got buffed, yay. Can even follow up with "Help Me!".--Deathwing 01:44, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The signet that they have, i think signet of aggression, is going to be used alot imo, might even be used in zergway Anti Oath 03:16, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You can better hit a foe than start casting Signet of Aggression. I might use it on my Dragon Slash PvE Warrior to conserve and build up adrenaline between fights. Still need a viable shout though. Maybe FGJ. 84.136.219.38 11:32, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * pre-adrenalining. :D - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 12:07, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A lot of skills in Motivation are still waiting for a chance to become less specific and therefore more playabe. Maybe next time?Nicky Silverstar 06:41, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A lot of skills profession wide need looked at, not just Motivation. However, it is easier just to nerf the decent skills and ignore the rest. --Deathwing 23:39, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Really great changes. Those skills are much, much more interesting now. Draw Conditions on a midliner N/Mo combined with Plague Sending can actually become a very nice combo to transfer conditions around Patccmoi 23:04, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah I was a bit worried about Plague touch as I think it's a great skill, but any warrior willing to put 8 into cursing deserves it. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:18, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think he wants people to start running Corrup Enchantment Warriors :P Anti Oath 03:19, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd agree if Rend Touch wasn't superior to Corrupt Enchant =/ Patccmoi 05:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I dont think this will see any play. why bother with Plague Touch when you have mending touch?. Plague Signet is Elite and that alone makes this skill unusable. And I don't think I'll have the slot to take Plague Sending considering that you may not encounter conditions. 84.136.219.38 11:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Cuz' Plague Touch is more offensive -.-. Think about sending a cripslash back his Cripple and Bleeding before he can Gash. --Tensei 13:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, you can either use Mending Touch and remove 2 conditions without speccing 8 or 9 into an attribute and getting into melee range or you use Plague Touch and waste a lot of attribute points just for the purpose of sending conditions back. 84.136.221.178 12:20, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Regardless, Mandragor Imps just got stronger :( --Deathwing 12:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * For plague touch to really compete with Mending Touch it needs to transfer two conditions at a low (or no) spec otherwise there's no reason to run it. Removing one condition at a time has been lame since NF's release. I really think that plague and mending touch need to be balanced with respect to each other, say each scales to handle conditions (breakpoint for 2 conditions at 4, 3 at 12 - same scale as Plague Sending but capped at 3). That kind of scaling would reward players for actually spec'ing into those attribute lines (a monk can mend touch off 3 conditions for example, or a curses necro can plague touch off 3) while not completely wrecking the skills for off-class use. --Tankity Tank 02:44, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Plague Touch needs to have a lower Breakpoint than Mending Touch. Make Plague Touch remove 2 conditions and make it unlinked again. Let Mending Touch remove 2 conditions at 6 Protection Prayers. Touch range really hinders Plague Touch's ability to remove crippling. ... or any other conditions in a retreating situation (split).
 * Speccing 8 curses isn't an issue. You just lose 8% armor penetration on your attack skills. Thing is though, shouldn't run this on a split warrior because you won't be able to use it against a good Cripshot since you'll be crippled and unable to get in range to use Plague Touch. If you gank, I guess you can unload the conditions on NPCs... Not gonna see much play though just due to the nature of the skill. --TimeToGetIntense 11:14, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Explain to me why it was changed from sacrifice to health loss? I don't see what was wrong with the current functionality. --23:35, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You lose 30..10% Health. Remove one Enchantment from target foe.
 * Maybe pre-emptive for Masochism?--Skye Marin 00:55, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Good call. --Tensei 02:03, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Either that or GB/Ravenous Gaze saccers with Awaken the Blood. But yeah, masochism is probably it. Ayumbhara 04:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I can no longer use it as a combo in sac builds with skills like Awaken the Blood, Grenth's Balance, Ravenous Gaze, or Aura of the Lich, all because of accommodating one non-elite. Bad nerf. Put a sacrifice cap on that new skill, but don't screw up one of the best sacrifice skills.--arredondo 18:57, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this kinda destroyed all Elites in the current Meta. No, wait... 84.136.241.192 13:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * GW doesn't simply revolve around the Meta believe it or not. While it is important not to disrupt the balance of high level GvG play, there are other modes where some of the skills can shine. Whether its PvE, Hero battles or RA, there is more to a person's enjoyment of Guild Wars than the area that you, Mr. Anon, may prefer to play. --arredondo 14:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

This skill is too strong. Its current format is too spammable, needs longer recharge.--Black mischief 02:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * decreased Energy cost to 10; decreased casting time to 1 second; decreased recharge time to 10 seconds; decreased duration to 4..10 seconds; increased miss chance to 50%.
 * Ya i gotta say i'm not sure why this went to 100% uptime. Sure it's a bit more energy intensive to keep going, but 100% uptime with more resilience to removal doesn't actually nerf it, and Necros aren't the ones hurting for energy the most. Patccmoi 02:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree, while it is more expensive to keep Reckless going, it's also much more resilient to removal from the constant reapplication. Would still be solid with a 12-15r -Ensign 05:54, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, 15r. -Void 13:32, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * After some testing i have to say i don't like the changes to reckless/price/spirit so far. Apart from blurred, miss hexes should imo stay 2+ second casts with slow recharge, to make them easy interrupt targets. Otherwise this stuff is just too powerful.
 * Reckless Haste: 10e, 2c, 20r, 5...15d
 * Price of Failure: 10e, 2c, 20r, 20d
 * Spirit of Failure: 10e, 3c, 20r, 20d -Void 18:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This kinda takes them back to what they were before, except with lower duration. It's not making them more active, it's more making them worse. I think that it should be EITHER 2s cast or slow recharge, but not both. Reckless Haste for example could be 10/2/12, 4..9..10d, or 10/1/15-20 4..9..10d. Either it's easier to interrupt, or it doesn't have such a good uptime. It's the combination of fairly hard to interrupt + permanent uptime + resilience to removal with short recharge that's really powerful. In fact with good emanagement Reckless is far stronger than it ever was atm, but i think only one of the 2 attributes should be hit, not both. I agree with your suggestions to Price and Spirit though. Those hexes AREN'T worth 15E. They just last way too long for no real reason, and when you rebalance hexes to be more active, having those 2 that are very passive with long cast, recharge, duration doesn't make much sense. I'd rather see them get a comparable change to Reckless and Spirit. Make them like 5/2/15, 5..10d. Cheap and easy to throw around to try to gain benefit from another missing hexes that's there on top so that the effect triggers repeatedly in a few seconds, but not lasting forever Patccmoi 18:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Before the balance update, the hex necro was a pretty nice template to play with the right mixture of active/spammable (corrupt/reapers/faintheartedness/parasitic) and powerful slow-recharge hexes (price/reckless/vocal). Any decent domination mesmer with pleak/pdrain could annoy this guy quite a lot.
 * Now the little secret: Signet of Humility and e-denial (e.g. an AI/GoLE powered Panic or a FM war) make hexes so incredible powerful, because this stuff blows up your counter abilities. The necro template itself (because i would always try to look at the whole bar rather than a single skill) was a well-rounded character, cutting down the insane durations of some hexes would have been enough. -Void 19:47, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * After playing with 'em a bit Price/Spirit would feel a lot better with 10e, 20d. 30 second hexes are still pretty gross, even at a higher cost, though Price/Spirit are skills that really need a significant duration to be effective.
 * I agree that the skill that pushes hexes over the edge is Signet of Humility to knock out the LoD that otherwise fights the degen fairly well. -Ensign 19:54, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that's symptomatic of LoD being too strong, or at least too metagame-critical, with things as they currently are. It's very strong against degen, which is fine, but it's also very strong in many other situations (infuser selfheal, general healing duty). The combination, IMO, is too much. I'm not asking for weaker partywide healing, just for more diversity in the efficiency-heal role. --72.211.155.160 20:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Fact still remains that the necro took absolutely no skill to use yet was still as effective at shutting down an offense as any other midline char. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:210.9.137.97.
 * Like spamming bsurge takes skill too.--Atlas Oranos 23:57, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Blind gets removed about a second after it gets put on so spamming it doesn't really do much other than leave you prone to getting diverted or something similar. Bsurge is most effective when timed right compared to a Curse necro doesn't really matter when you cast it as long as you cover it and hope for the best. Just a silly arguement.
 * True, but its just the nature of hexes and conditions. I honestly think that while hexes will become more active, but they wont take as much skill as using blind effectively. The bsurge spam comment was more or less just tossed out there, maybe I should have said aegis(old) or ward defense.--Atlas Oranos 16:08, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Ritualist
Wow, someone used his Nerfhammer. I don't think any of the skills that you touched (read: added exhaustion) will ever see play again. That is way too hard. I'd lower the damage and decrease the recharge, to make the rit less of a spike character and more of a pressure character. 84.136.254.62 21:25, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, exhaustion on a non ele is ugly. Ele's can play with exhaustion due to their increase en pool, Rt's arent made to handle it and adding it to these skills removes their viability altogether. (and i HATE these skills to begin with, i agree theyre too much... but exhaustion is overkill... ). They really need a new mechanic alltogether (like a % energy drain on cast, or a smaller or faster recovering exhaustion) or a change to SP that increases en pool.--Midnight08 21:35, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * i don't think it's that bad. exquinox was damaging exclusively eles, making it barely better than mending. so now we finally have an alternative. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 21:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is bad either, I actually look at it as a buff. I'd rather have exhaustion with the short recharge than 25 energy + long recharge. Ancestor's Rage could have done without the exhaustion though. --Deathwing 21:40, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * ph34r t3h 3quin0x! - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 21:45, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thats 5 of the skills that were buffed in recharge (read more exhaustion), and energy cost out of 8 skills which had exhaustion added. the other 3 (Ancestor's Rage, Wanderlust, Wielders Strike) had no compensation at all. Ancestors does good damage at 8 recharge and now adds exhaustion. At 10e this is very costly and the skill could probably use an inherant 25% AP like similar ele skills. Wanderlust's change doesnt hurt too much as it really touches spirit spammers the most and they usually have moderate energy management and this will likely be the only bar in their chain with exhaustion. Still it weakens versatility. Finally Wielders strike was given exhaustion. This i can see as for the e cost it is low for an almost dure fir conditional damage spike. Still, i see this as a bad fix for these skills and would have preferred something a bit more "creative"--Midnight08 21:54, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * that's not creative? adding exhaustion to help rangers? - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 21:56, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There's one thing i hate about Exhaustion on Rts and it's that Exhaustion is totally counter-intuitive with Item Spells, which are all in all a big part of Rts skills or a requirement for many others. When you have item spells, you have LOW max energy, around 30 (with one exception being Mighty was Vorizun, which seems like it'll nearly be a requirement for many builds now). While Eles have tools to help them have an ADVANTAGE over other classes for exhaustion (Energy Storage, and they can easily use +30E sets switch if required though that's valid for all casters), Rts have tools that go AGAINST exhaustion by lowering their max E below that of any other caster and preventing them from using Weapon Swaps. For a few skills, the exhaustion idea is nice, like Xinrae's Weapon. But exhaustion as a whole is bad for Rts imo. It discourages using item spells, which is like 1/4th of the skills. I wish you'd really reconsider that and add some other disadvantage instead, or just balance the skills differently. Another idea could be that while holding an item spell you regenerate from Exhaustion 33% faster (so takes 20s for a strike of exhaustion instead of 30s). That could potentially cause other issues though. An Ele holding Mighty was Vorizun would have like 120E and wouldn't care about exhaustion. Unless you tie the Exhaustion recovery to Spawning Power (spirits have % more health, weapon spells last % longer, while holding an item you recover from exhaustion % faster. Could be an interesting option) Patccmoi 22:35, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a good point Patccmoi, but I think Ritualist need another balancing tool, they really have had a hard time finding their place power vs effect wise, and I think Exhaustion could help find the balance on some of the their skills that are either too good when you bring a bunch of them, but balanced when you bring one or two. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:05, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This is quite true, in that sense i see that Exhaustion is good in limiting you to choose one of the Exhaustion skills and not put them all in the same builds. But the synergy with Item Spells is still very harsh. Is the suggestion of making Exhaustion either recharge faster (20-25s instead of 30s) or hitting for less (7-8E of exhaustion) IF you're holding an item based on Spawning Power a viable idea? I don't know how Exhaustion is coded and if it would cause technical issues to do it. But i could easily see Spawning Power be like 'while holding an item, for every 4 ranks of Spawning Power you get 1 less energy point of Exhaustion' (so realistically you'd take 7 or 8E of exhaustion instead of 10E. 6E if you go at 16 Spawning, but the hell i know why you'd want to do that!) or 'while holding an item, Exhaustion regenerates 2% faster for every point in Spawning Power' so that it goes up to 32% faster (so 20s). This would settle the problem of synergy between Item Spells and Exhaustion while keeping the mechanic there to control which skills can be put on the same bar and which can't
 * Oh and btw nice change to Spirit Burn, i was so worried this skill would get destroyed instead of balanced and it's so nice for a Rt out of Rt spike, but that's exactly the change i hoped for ^^ Patccmoi 23:17, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah I still think it's questionable turning pressure skills into spike skills with exhaustion, but I guess well see how it goes. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe this could be a secondary effect for some rarely used item spell, like Tranquil Was Tanasen or Defiant Was Xinrae? "While you hold those ashes, you recover from Exhaustion 0...20% faster"? Erasculio 23:27, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I like the exhaustion on spirits quite a bit, I think it will open up Rit bars by allowing them to be run at reasonable costs without creating fields of the things. The only skills I really don't like exhaustion on is Wielder's Strike.  Between needing to have a weapon spell (the hardest conditional) and exhaustion, the skill is far too awkward to even try and workaround to use. -Ensign 06:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * How exactly will it open new Rit bars? If anything, the update reduced the number of viable Rit bars. Actually, after this update, I'm very curious how many people will run Rits. The problem is that aside of the nerfed things, there aint much of what you can run if you're Rt. There's just not enough other non-nerfed skills to squeeze in, which are better than what other classes have to offer. Servant of Kali 12:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, looking at the existing skill-balancing tools, we can find exhaustion, life sacrifice, skill disabling, punitive conditions, and punitive health degen. Now looking at the general tone of the ritualist, giving their skills the drawbacks -other- than exhaustion looks more in accordance to the rit 'death priest' theme. In particular, I think it'd be interesting to have sacrifice 50% health for heavy spirits (forcing rits to bring Restoration to offset). Also, it just occured to me that rit spike can be sabotaged in an interesting way by making Rift, Strike and Rage (possibly a few others) read "disable all non-channeling skills for 10 seconds" or "disable all non-channeling Ritualist skills for 10 seconds". This gives channelers intact pressure damage but makes it impossible to have an all-rit team follow spike with self-healing.--Shillo 12:19, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't want to have to use a bad elite to make up for exhaustion. I fully agree that it's questionable =p
 * This is for Izzy. On the discussion page for the update, I posted a comprehensive change to the channellings skills hit with exhaustion and ways to turn them into more pressure skills without having to result to somethign so...unritualist. I looked at the removal of weapon spells and various other playings with recharges/energy costs that would makes skills useable. I even suggested turning Ancestors' into an enchantment with an effect when it ends.  Check it out, maybe it will inspire you with some more...justifiable ways to make changes to the Ritualist profession.TGgold 00:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * One interesting suggestion I saw was to remove the conditional damage from Wielder's Strike and replace it with, "If you are under the effects of a weapon Spell, enemies within adjacent range of your target take the same ammount of damage". Would make it useless as a spike tool, but there would still be a benefit for being under a weapon spell. Erasculio 04:16, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If exhaustion proves to be too harsh for all of these skills, maybe life sacrificing can be used for some of them. A big life sac can make the ritualist vulnerable using certain setups. It might be more fun for both sides, as the ritualist will need to be careful while using certain skills and the opposing team can watch for that vulnerability. I don't know. What does everyone else think? --Redfeather 06:31, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Life sac isn't a bad idea at all. It actually synergizes with the Ritualist skills (for example Caretaker's Charge would be much more useful since the Self-heal could cover for life saccing, and in PvE you can use Vampirism), and Life Sac is already present in Ritualist skills and makes more sense with the Profession as a whole. It also synergizes better with item spells (you have less health, you sac less) instead of being counter-intuitive, and you could compensate with picking 1-2 Resto spells too. You could give fairly big life sac to the major spirit (like 25% life sac) and something around 17% for Wielder's Strike. And seriously to kill Rt spike just nerf Wielder's Strike and Ancestor's Rage so that they're better at pressure and worse at spiking (just like Spirit Burn, lower damage and faster recharge). Rts already have 3 spike skill with Channeled Strike, Spirit Rift and Gaze from Beyond, which ARE well balanced now with 2s cast time on each, and with all that you would fix Rt spikes without adding a mechanic that's totally counter-intuitive to Ritualists and hurting the profession. I think life saccing would seriously be a much better balancing option to exhaustion, and if you put enough life sac at the good place, you won't be able to put many life saccing skills on your bar (or you'd have to put a lot of self-heal too, which eats up your energy) just like you can't put 3-4 exhaustion ones. Patccmoi 14:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Now that's a great idea. Life-sac makes a lot of sense. It also lessens the benefit of Vital since it is a percentage (more max hp, more sac). I would much prefer Wielder's changed to pressure damage (no more unnecessary DD+DD, but DD+Utility instead) but a 25-33% sac wouldn't be too much on this in my view.
 * Ancestors' doesn't even need to be high damage either. 60 damage + blind 2...6 seconds, to any attacking foes adjacent to target ally. 10-15 energy, 12 second recharge, 1 second cast. See? Utility instead of dumb dd. It's easy to 'not' be all out damage. Why did this thing do 137 Lightning damage in the first place?
 * Sac on Xinraes' Weapon would also be far better. Go nuts with it and you kill yourself. Seriously, this thing has nothing on Diversion or Gale, yet it's elite and suffers from a conditional that should be reserved for the heavy hitters, and why the hell does it need to last 10 seconds on a target? Diversion functions fine on 6. Lasting it's recharge makes little sense to me. Smart teams will have switched targets already. 20% sac (or no sac actually) 10-15, 0.25, 15. 2...6 d.
 * It's updates like this that make me question if rits will ever become more than just a mish-mash of the other classes. You add nothing really 'new'. Running more or less the same bars on the 'used' characters gets dull already. If your not that interested in making the class stronger support for allies with the skills already present (both offence and defence), it would be nice to know... Fro 15:37, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Life sac sounds nice. Much better than exhaustion for channeling IMO. I mean, channeling was meant for pressure, right? So, how to build some pressure with exhaustion spells? PvE ritus who were just beginning to catch ground with aoe dmg can go home again, even considering the new gw:en skills. I was looking forward to play gw:en with a ritu first, but now.. no freakin way! Exhaustion may be fine on the spirits (hell, that would be special, as thats not even a spell, but a binding ritual) but for the pressure spells, we can think of sth. better I hope. And for spirit rift spikes: heck, that's what xinrae is for, eh? you see it coming, you disable it. --Ineluki [[Image:"Coward!".jpg|19px]] 17:56, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

In my eyes the exhaustion is really unfair...every skill that had exhaustion slapped on it this update will never see use again, not to mention the unbearable sound of thousands of people deleting their rits..i also agree with the life sac idea, i mean, anything is better than exhaustion at this point.
 * i'd rather see a bonus for ritualists helping them diminish exhaustion or get less to start with. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 18:47, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

My .02$ (I had a fairly large post about the added Exhaustion on GWOnline, this is pretty much a summary). In short, Exhaustion is a good solution on Xinrae's spells. On the Binding Rituals it is decent; I think it's unnecesary, and that there are other ways of balancing spirit spamming (for example make Binding Rituals disable your other Binding Rituals for 7 or 10 seconds when they're finished casting, which gives more than enough room to charge the rit) however Exhaustion is also a possible way to balance them.

However it is used badly on Wielder's Strike and Ancestor's Rage, which could have been balanced without Exhaustion, through ways already mentioned (lower damage and recharge). In this case the added Exhaustion kills these skills as swiftly as it killed a lot of Elementalist skills in Prophecies; in a later update the Exhaustion was removed from those Elementalist skills and, I really hope that the Exhaustion will be removed from these skills and that they will gain a Spirit Burn like treatment. The Exhaustion put on Wanderlust however seems as bad as the Exhaustion put on Meteor Shower and that is saying something. I do not see any reason for the Exhaustion to be there, as sacrifing your elite slot on a 5-second cast spirit, with a 45 second recharge who has bugged AI is enough of a penalty besides the added Exhaustion (which really only is a problem if you get interrupted).

If it was either buffed, or if Spirit AI was fixed, I might see the Exhaustion as needed. However at the moment, I only really see offensive spirits as truly useful for one mode of play which is RA (and possibly TA) as there is a lack of large spaces and, simply put, skilled teams there so you are forced into a spirit fortress far sooner than in any other mode of play.

I'm pretty ok with the other changes, none of them strike me as ridiculous (the Spirit Burn change being actually particularly good balancing).

Wanted to add: I like the suggested change of giving Rits more saccing abilities, as it really fits with the class and seems easier to handle. Also wanted to note, that if Exhaustion is to stay, might it be an idea to add some Exhaustion manipulating effect to Energetic was Lee Sa?Akirai Annuvil 18:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * After playing with Rt a bit more, i gotta say that i agree with Akirai mostly. I believe Exhaustion is a GOOD thing for the 25E spirits (fitting one in your build and using it on a 25-30s recharge is MUCH more realistic now, which is great, but you can't stack them all which is also fine). For the Xinrae's spells, possibly fine too though i would've prefer to see them reworked a bit (especially Defiant. No matter the stats, even if you remove exhaustion, it's the skill CONCEPT that's bad. Elite self-defense isn't worth anything in PvP unless it's total immunity ala Shadow Form that can found niche uses). My main problem is really only with Wielder's Strike and Ancestor's Rage because Exhaustion on simple dd spells (not ignoring armor spikes like OFlame) doesn't make much sense. Tweak the numbers, and for those maybe add a life sac. But Exhaustion for pressure skills make no sense, cause how are you gonna pressure with something causing exhaustion? Rits don't have the energy pool like Eles to say 'ok, i'll use 4-5 exhausting skills in a row to score a kill and then hang low for a while', the way you can play a Mind Shock for instance. If you use 3-4 Exhaustion skills in a row, you have no energy pool left. It's gone. And this fails for pressure skills. So i'd say tweak numbers and remove exhaustion from Wielder's Strike/Ancestor's Rage (either a simple reduce damage/recharge, or reduce damage/add utility), at worse give them a life sac. But for the other skills, Exhaustion actually seems like a good balancing method because as long as you only have 1 of them on your bar, it hardly affects you. But for Wielder's Strike and Ancestor's Rage, even if you have no other exhaustion on your bar, it will basically turn them on an average of 20-30s recharge, which makes them very bad skills. In fact, the only use they COULD have is as part of a spike build, because you can't use exhaustion skills to pressure. And since the point is to move AWAY from Rt spike, that's not a good fix. Patccmoi 19:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ritualist with an item spell has only about 30-40 energy. This means that exhuastion will eat up 25-33% of the energy pool. Offensive and defensive spirit spamming builds are no longer viable due to energy issues. With this new update I think the communing and channeling line will be used much less now. --Shadetz X 22:33, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

In general the point of this change was to test out a limiting factor for Ritualists, I mean I could easily nerf Wielders strike into a "pressure" skill or make Ancestors' Rage suck again, but the problem is Ritualist need another mechanic to balance them. Many of their skills are either going to be really bad or really good, because the tools they have don't allow their damage to be high enough it becomes a spike, and when they are pressure skills no one uses them because if you want pressure your not gonna bring a Rit. Without some other balancing mechanic these skills are going to get nerfed and the spike is either going to work (and people will hate it) or it's not and the skills will be unused. With Exhaustion the goal is to make them spike skills much like some of the Ele spike skills and make them fun and interesting to play, with exhaustion as a limiting factor, I mean if the damage needs to come up and the costs need to go down to account for the exhaustion then fine, but without exhaustion these skills are going to fall back into either bad or too good pile. As for spirits, I didn't mean to nerf everyones build I was just trying out some uses of Exhaustion by using it as the cost instead of the crazy 25 here skills. I'm collecting builds that got nerfed hard core, and I'll make some tweaks to midigate that, but int he end the goal of exhaustion there is to make 25e 5c 60r skills more fun, and interesting. ~Izzy @-&#39; 05:18, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Some people suggested health sacrifice instead of exhaustion. It would make sense, since some Rit skills already have it, it fits with their pseudo-necro theme, and you could adjust the level of sacrifice to exactly where you wanted it. Exhaustion is a rather all-or-nothing proposition, it has no variable power you can tweak one way or another. I think health sac would be a much more flexible, viable option for counterbalancing these skills. Arshay Duskbrow 06:04, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with the health sacrafice suggestions. --Shadetz X 09:36, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You think a Rt will not be used for pressure? Well, likely not in 8v8, but in RA,TA and most importent split GvG it's one hell of a nice utility, healing from one hand while dealing out damage from the other. --Ineluki [[Image:"Coward!".jpg|19px]] 09:27, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Despite all this, i saw that you decreased the recharge on sight beyond sight, now it can be kept up forever on a spirits strength rit, this skill also looks somewhat more useful for melee classes too, so good job on this anyway..Streetp 07:49, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Izzy I see what you mean about power levels and people not using pressure skills. The reason for this is because pure damage from a caster is not all that useful. Especially when an auto-attacking melee or spear class can achieve the same thing. If you added pressure damage + utility, you'd see a difference. Even if you don't want to go down the path of things like this that are free of exhaustion...


 * Wielder's Strike
 * 15..51 damage unconditional + 2..6 seconds of blind. 15 recharge
 * or
 * 15..51 damage unconditional + 1..3 seconds of burning. 12 recharge
 * or
 * 15..51 damage unconditional + 1..3 seconds of dazed. 15 recharge 15e cost


 * If you wanted to still keep the exhaustion, you really need to make these things more than just damage. Utility is always better than damage on a caster in my view.
 * Contrary to this, I think the exhaustion on certain spirits is a fantastic idea. I'd gladly trade 10 energy, and 20 second recharges for exhaustion, but tactically Dissonance and Disenchantment are still black holes thanks to 5 second creation times. Anguish is about right I think, considering it's synergy with Signet of Ghostly Might (a limited use but even still).
 * The only skill that really fails with exhaustion is Xinrae's Weapon (The Item spell has little value anyway since it's only has selfish application). It's just not worth exhaustion. The mes effect just isn't good enough. In truth how effective do you think this will be in a balanced group, 'against' a balanced group?
 * Compare it to a tactically placed Diversion. For this to function in it's current state, it would need to have a disable time that is truly debilitating, not just a whimsical annoyance. Basically something comparable to Diversion (like 20-30 seconds). Problem with that is you create a more active version of what is effectively Spell Breaker against intelligent casters. So the dilemma is it's not good enough to be worthy of exhaustion but if it was, it might be detrimental to the game. The mid-point would be no exhaustion and Diversion like qualities. 10e cost, 12-15 second recharge, and a maximum duration 6 seconds for similar reasons you did the same to those mesmer skills in a previous update. It just makes sense... Fro 10:41, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Stop trying to save a class that should never have been implemented in the first place. Death to ritualists!!! Man, it just takes so much skill to lay spirits its amazing, and even more to 3 2 1 spike. Lets keep them a viable imba class amirite? I actually like these changes. Exhaustion was put on eles to prevent spamming really strong skills. Well, it just so happend that ritualists had really strong skills, so why not add exauhstion? Great update overall, hexes are almost fixed, but still need work. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Necros.
 * Placing spirits takes no skill? Oh really? I've seen ele and warrior builds which take far less, and no one complains about those. You know what, spirit spamming DOES take skill. Go to RA, play around, you will be able to notice bad and good spirit spammers. I played with both in my team and I can tell you spirit spamming isnt just "randomly put random spirit at random time and wait for enemy to charge on you". I've seen people who are really bad at spirit spamming, and some who made a science out of it, by studying placement, spirit AI and anticipating enemy moves depending on which spirit you place when and where. Servant of Kali 15:15, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You see? It's attitudes like this that just confuse the situation. Removing a class from the game after implementation is the most asinine thing I've read in a good while. What is the problem? You don't want to deal with the extra considerations a new 'viable' class will bring to the game? Stop being lazy.
 * Ritualists have been jumping from extreme to extreme since their implementation. A lot of bad things have arisen through that period (mindless spirit-spam and Rit Spike). However there is a lot of good in the class that could really shake up competitive play (things like Guided Weapon, and a functioning Xinrae's for example). I just hope that Izzy's ears are tuned to filter out rubbish like this... Fro 13:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC) (latest edit : Correcting formatting. Careful Kali mate :P)
 * Yeah, I've already whined about attitudes "let's have 2 classes and play chess where the only difference is color and who starts first". Servant of Kali 15:15, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

If painful bond is too powerful, nerf painful bond, not the spirits

Ok, how having exhaustion on spamable spells like rage and wielders strike is a really bad idea on a class that has 25 max energy with an item spell, which is required for a lot of builds and skills, has been pointed out enough now i guess. So i focus on my very personal problems with this patch. I am concerned about the impact of this patch on the viability of ritus in DOA. I was always a strong supporter of having a ritu, mesmer, ele dmg backline instead of the classic 3 ele one there. Not only because i found it more fun to play the ritu instead of my dumb searing flames spamming ele, but also i found it more effective to have a good combination of ele knockdown and dps combined with spike of ritu/mesmer. With the changes to spirit rift and ancestors rage you killed that build. Energy is already a problem so ancestors rage is out of the question now and with the spirit rift nerf dmg suffers so much that you can't take a ritu over an ele anymore. Not even to talk about the much higher chance to get interrupted by dreamriders now. I can see that ritu spikes in pvp might be a problem that needs to be addressed, but in pve those two skills were perfectly balanced (ritu more spike dmg, ele more dps) and i don't think spirit rift is the root of the problem in pvp and ancestors visage could be balanced for pvp without that huge impact on pve. At least last time i played PVP (though i agree that has been a loong time ago), players were smart enough to move out of a big shiny sign that says "lots of dmg in 3 seconds here". And about alternative balancing methods of ancestors rage, there were already mentioned some like life sacrifice or disabling all ritu non channeling skills. So for the sake of diversity in PVE i hope you take them into consideration. 134.130.183.235 17:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Why not just reduce the arrack rate of the powerful spirits to like 3-5 sec or give x% chance to fail?

so... what should that mean? the recharge is 5 right now. meant duration? - Y0_ich_halt 21:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Splinter Weapon: decreased recharge time to 20 seconds.
 * This is a type it's Duration not recharge. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:03, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That's pretty funny. Izzy just typo'd "typo" with "type".--Skye Marin 13:19, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm a walking Typo I suck at english soo bad : ) ~Izzy @-&#39; 05:09, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This wasnt dealt with correctly at all... the duration wasnt a problem, it only takes 4-5 seconds to unload 5 attacks, it was the damage power it has at VoD.--TheLordOfBlah 05:14, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's perfectly possible to create a single target pressure spell - in fact you have made one in Immolate. The issue with caster damage in general in Guild Wars is that you have to choose whether you want to deal damage or get some useful effect - contrast with physicals, where all your skills have effects and the damage comes from your natural attacks.  Also, caster damage as a whole is *very* expensive, while physical damage is free, so when it comes down to it you're a whole lot better off letting your physicals kill while your casters spend their energy on stronger, supplemental effects.  Most of the DDs you see used are used as part of a spike, since that's usually the only situation where the damage justifies the energy.
 * Good caster pressure skills act like physical skills, they do damage plus have an effect. Water, for instance, or many of the degen hexes work in this way and that's part of why they are so good.  AoE is an alternative to spikiness for making a good damage skill, since those can be used tactically as well.  I'm kinda unhappy about the Ancestor's Rage change in light of that, because it *did* have usage outside of a spike since it's an AoE nuke, you just had to get the numbers right.
 * A good single target pressure skill, without spikiness, would need to be in the range of 75-85 damage @15 (depending on type and whether or not it is a projectile) for 5 energy on a very short, 2-3 second recharge. As far as I know, there aren't any skills in Guild Wars that fit that profile, even conditionally. -Ensign 10:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I've often thought the same about pressure skills on casters, and it's always support for the damage a physical is doing anyway. Immolate is a great example also since it doesn't stack as effectively as pure, non-degen damage spells (better for single usage, worse for clone wars). I did feel it should be slightly lower on Rits considering their defensive capability, but then when you have LoD to eat up all the damage, I guess it's a little dubious.
 * Damage packets are a nice solution to making slightly lower values more attractive, since they reek havok with RoF and sit nicely under Spirit Bond... Fro 12:51, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Among the Ritualist skills that were given Exhaustion, this is the only one that bothers me. All the others are more reliable - even Wanderlust is more reliable, as it's likely it will hit an enemy who's not moving as long as you cast it within range of a few targets. Anguish, in other hand, is not reliable - between the (very cool) nerf to hexes and the buff to hex removal, and the lack of ways to make the spirit attack who we want it to attack, the probability of Anguish actually attacking someone with a hex is small - unless you decide to hex who the spirit is attacking, but that not only is too random, but also it would be a simple matter to remove the from that specific target in order to prevent the damage (unless you're using Hexway, but hopefully that's gone now). Ritualists could afford the 25 energy with a skill so unreliable as this given how they have many kinds of energy management - but they don't have ways to get rid of Exhaustion, and getting Exhausted over a spirit that won't do anything useful is not really going to work, IMO. Erasculio 23:27, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * decreased Energy cost to 10; decreased recharge time to 20 seconds; this Skill now causes Exhaustion.
 * I don't see why this skill should cause exhaustion. Already has a condition that requires oppoenent to be hexes in order for double damage. I don't think this skill is worth taking along anymore. --Shadetz X 23:37, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Not only that, but I don't really remember I saw this skill ran before either. And now when you have to make a choice between Dissonance Disenchantment and Anguish on your skillbar, I can't see a single reason to take Anguish (except if your teammate is taking it, but I somehow doubt that's gonna happen with all the changes). Servant of Kali 23:48, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Are you guys familiar with Painful Bond? lol....this + PB = ownage, I find it especially useful in PVE.Streetp 18:54, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * the problem is not damage. it's controllability. with pb you have to go after what anguish decides to attack to get that uber dmg. you can't tell it what to attack or focus it someway. in pve that might work (because nearly everything works there), but for pvp it's useless because you can't just go after what your spirits do. that's why it's not worth exhaustion. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 19:04, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Play some PvP with new Anguish. Servant of Kali 21:19, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * i know it's uber dmg. but you can't control it yourself. i'm ok with that whole exhaustion thing, but i think this spirit doesn't deserve it. it's really the only one. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 21:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well honestly i agree with that. Anguish was never worth 25E in the first place, while it was understandable for the others. It should've been 15E. At worse make it 5s cast. But i don't really see why it should be put on the same level as Disenchantment or Dissonance that are FAR better spirits all-in-all. Patccmoi 23:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems like it wouldn't be too hard to just make the spirit prioritize hexed foes, but of course that's easy for me to say, not having access to the code ;) --Mysterial 04:13, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll basically c+p what I said in one of the GWO Rit threads: Wanderlust is 5 seconds, heavily prone to disruption and at a higher cost if it is now with the added exhaustion. If compared with Meteor Shower which is a spell, if any pvper was to ever run that type of skill, they'd probably run it with Glyph of Sacrifice. Key difference that MS Kd's 3 times and does dmg with each, while Wander does 0 dmg and Kd's more in accordance to how much you put into spawning power. Triple the cost now and still heavily prone to interrupts, so basically you're 30 energy down and have a skill slot lost for 45 seconds if you get interrupted. There is nothing that brings down the activation time of binding rituals, so the addition of exhaustion to this kind of skill really hurts it overall imo. Lowering the recharge to 30 seconds or the activation time to 3 seconds would really help this skill after the exhaustion change. Xitoahc 00:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * this skill now causes Exhaustion.
 * The only thing the exhaustion does to this skill is prevent the spamming of other spirits with it, which was the point. Exhaustion ends in 30 seconds, and recharge is 45.--Skye Marin 00:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Meh, was one of the only real elites left for general PvE use, now it's hard to fit into bars. - Auron 02:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Bye bye boss farming build! At least I have VwK.
 * If nerf to this skill ruined your farm build, I'm all for the update. Die farming die. Servant of Kali 11:33, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * lol, if you think it's going to help the market you are completely mistaken.
 * I have no idea why this was nerfed, I blame people who hate ritualists and want them completely removed, I will not use this elite anymore 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I'm disgusted with "lets have 3 classes in the game". Those people should play chess. I didn't like elementalists and warriors in Prophecies, but did you hear me running around screaming "oooooh remove these classes!". No. I didn't. Ritualist are a part of the game, and if you don't like em, you can always organize 8v8 scrimmage with people who want Prophecy skills only. Anyway, this skill wasn't overpowered before, not by a long shot, especially if you know how to abuse spirit AI (and if you don't who cares). You're not the only one who will not run Wanderlust anymore. See, for this skill you need to invest into 3 attributes, Spawning Communing and 3rd. Why 3rd? Because Spawning has little useful non-elite skills (actually, it has none which go along with Wanderlust), and Communing has very few as well (you can stick in Pain, that's about it). Servant of Kali 14:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Stop posting troll bait.
 * Either way, the only people that will stop using this are the "spirit spammers" who never had much skill/varied play to begin with. Wanderlust is still viable, but only if you don't have a stupid bar (wanderlust/dissonance/disenchantment etc). Learn to play varied builds and these niche nerfs won't hurt as hard. - Auron 15:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Aha. And would you please post 8 skills with Wanderlust in, I'm interested in how your skillbar would look like. Servant of Kali 16:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh ya, also, why is wan-dis-disenchantment a stupid bar? Not that I used Wanderlust, but I'm curious? And then you're telling to people to use varied builds and stop using niche skills? Really? What's wrong with niche skills? And you know that all spirit spammers have no skill? And begin the post with "stop posting troll bait" while you're trolling more than I do. Disgusting. Servant of Kali 16:15, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok... this is not that hard to understand. There are certain game formats where a forest of spirits is completely overpowered (TA immediately comes to mind, also some areas of HA and HB) so Anet made it so 1 guy couldn't by himself maintain a forest of the most devastating spirits.  I think they tried to do this the first time by upping the problematic spirits to 25E and nerfing BoC... but that didn't work (people have found ways to power it) so they implemented a 'surer' fix.  I think it's an good solution.  You can still make your Wanderlust/pain/bloodsong/shadowsong/etc forest to your heart's content ... but you have to make some hard choices about the really powerful ones... 21:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There is already a restriction on spirits, only one spirit of the same kind can be up at time. 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Im not debating exhaustion on Anguish Disenchantment and Dissonance, but only Wanderlust. I think exhaustion on this skill is too much. Never mind though, I was never a fan of Wanderlust and never used it (except when I tried it out), so it's not like it will hurt me. Servant of Kali 23:45, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I like exhaustion on the spirits with the reduced costs, but I'm not a fan of it on the damage skills. I'd prefer the use of a different type of limited resource on a number of them. Ancestor's Rage could steal X% of spirit energy of the spirit nearest the target ally and convert it to lightning damage, something manageable for one Rit, but not a team. Spirit rift could damage all spirits in earshot by something near 35% of their life. Wielder's strike, on the other hand, could do it's additional damage to a nearby foe instead of the target foe. No need for Exhaustion on these skills is needed, really. Xinrae's Weapon having a meaningful sac would be awesome (30..15%). Encourage powerful skills, but with mechanics that don't get better with more uses. Key word is encourage, not limit the opposite.--Skye Marin 22:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Yea seriously. Exhaustion? On a rit? Non ele classes just dont have that kinda energy to deal with exhaustion. Even just 1 bout of exhaustion is a killer. I recommend changing up the whole Exhaustion effect. I guess a little exhaustion is ok, ur summoning a super power spirit, it makes u tired. Ok i guess. I think the whole functionality of Exhaustion needs to be changed NOW. Every spell should apply its own amount of exhaustion, instead of a generic 10 energy. Like say, Meteor Shower adds 10 points of exhaustion, whereas some rit skills or weaker ele skills might cause 3-5 points of exhaustion. Exhaustion needs to change now. Each spell should apply a different amount. 68.226.80.7 00:09, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the Exhaustion on this skill is fine, but it needs to have its recharge reduced like the other spirits that got it.--Mysterial 15:20, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If shock warriors can use exhaustion skills, Im sure Rits can too.--Renegade 15:26, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Warriors also have an entirely different energy line to dig into, so people should stop bringing up that point.Streetp 18:59, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

ra spirit spammers still use it. met 10 of them today, every single one with either wanderlust or, rarely, preservation. - Y0_ich_halt 19:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

This now takes 5 seconds to do anything and for the last 3 of those the target must stand still. The pay off for landing this oh so unlikely nuke is 135 adjacent lightning damage. Were the PvE monsters crying over this skill? Because any humans standing in place for 4 seconds while a glowing blue orb and accompanying sound effect rises at their feet deserved to be blown up.
 * increased casting time to 2 seconds.
 * Players were using other skills (such as Gale and Shadow Prison) to keep players within the glowing blue orb's range. Erasculio 04:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Are the monks on the other team playing blindfolded? Because a Spirit Rift spike would tend to telegraph just... ya' know... a teensy bit.
 * This just reverted the buff it had a skill balance or two ago. --Deathwing 10:25, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Lol no monks aren't blind ... just do the math 7x Spirit RIft + 7x some other nuke (ancestors rage, wielder's strike) and a monk can infuse 6 times and target is still dead. Oh did I mention the 8th guy is stripping enchants?
 * I feel that, since the other RitSpike skills were hurt so badly, this skill could have remained the same. If anything, justlower the damage a little. --Tensei 14:05, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This was ran in a spike with this + ancestor's rage as well as ritspike, and besides, it's an easily lethal spike(even alone) that just happens to have incredible synergy with a character(N/A shadow prison) that has a very spammable deep wound and can guarantee that the spike hits. --Edru viransu 20:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Then maybe the monks should have rather used hex removal instead of infusing 6 times... :) 134.130.183.235 17:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There are, like, two covers, and they use Iron Palm for the KD before there's even a chance to remove the hex, as well as having 3x enchant strippers. Shido 15:02, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * sry this skill is terrible now, 2 seconds casting time and need 3 seconds to be triggered 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Umm, this skill was horrible before. "Hi, us 6 bright glowing energy balls are gonna give you 3 seconds to take a step in any direction before we explode, killing the dumbest people on your team." Anyone who died from this skill deserved it. You could even move out of it while snared. Shard 20:13, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Totally not good enough. The disable isn't long enough to be used against anything besides caster spikes. Why can't it be more along the lines of Diversion? It's an elite afterall. It could maybe have a 30 second disable and only work on the next spell? Anyway, no one's going to run this with Exhaustion and a short disable time. --TimeToGetIntense 05:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Disable should be upped by 10 seconds on both Xinraes to make them somewhat useful. Especially with the added exhaustion.Streetp 07:58, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

will make Mo/D rushing so much easier. thanks >.> - Y0_ich_halt 21:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * decreased recharge time to 15 seconds.

Great buff, this is now worthy of a slot :)--Atlas Oranos 00:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * functionality changed to: For 20 seconds, your next 1..3 attack Skills cost 5..20 less Energy.
 * This helps make the Black Spider Strike nerf a lot less painful. --Deathwing 11:15, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a buffed GoLE for attacks~ --24.179.151.252 03:55, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That requires 12 to max the attacks at 3. Gole allows two spells to be cast for 10 less energy with 0 investment.--Atlas Oranos 23:55, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * But it only needs 5 as an investment to be exactly specced as GolE. Don't forget the 1/4 cast, which is better on a melee character.--Skye Marin 04:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't forget that this has half the recharge. --24.179.151.252 18:28, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Excuse the sarcasm of the first post, but why exactly do you guys see this as a threat, there are only a few skills even worth using with it, and if something like a ranger, or sin specs into this, he will either lose: reliable condition removal or an ias.--Atlas Oranos 00:17, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that this can be removed, gole cant.--Atlas Oranos 00:26, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Alittle worried about this one.--Atlas Oranos 02:08, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * decreased recharge time to 5 seconds.
 * This skill is too strong. Needs longer recharge.  --Black mischief 02:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Very worried about this one. It was powerful and played before, so... why? Patccmoi 02:15, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * ow! hit it with the nerf bat >< 8 sec recharge plz --Lou-Saydus[[image:User Lou-Saydus Hail Storm.jpg|19px]] 02:48, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * From the 3 gvgs i did after the update, every team had a warrior with this, if this skill is goign to be 5 seconds, have it require an enchantment tto be lost for it to remove one. Anti Oath 03:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Overbuffed. But I hate SoD, how to feel on this :p - But seriously, too strong. Yesitsrob 04:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I like the idea of making it require an enchantment to be removed on the caster in order to remove an enchantment on the target. No idea if this would still be abusable, though. Erasculio 04:19, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Rending touch is retarded now. Please revert, or make it 8r at most.  --Symbol 03:21, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Watching this in GvG is sad. How about link it to Mysticism and make it: 5/.75/5, this skill is disabled for 10..5 seconds? So for Dervs with 14 Mysticism, it'd be 5s recharge, but for warriors it'd stay 10s recharge. The thing is, losing an enchantment is just never a downside for warriors. Rending Touch at 5s is just retarded because it destroys every other build relying on enchants. You see Eles being massively stripped after they cast an Attunement in order to strip it even if they attempt to cover it (they don't all carry 5s recharge cover enchant!). Conjure Warriors are dead (that's not necessarily a bad thing, but why buff Conjure for 3 patches if you buff a skill making it obsolete afterwards?). I'd either do the switch to Mysticism and disable it for a duration depending on your rank on it, or just forget that change and put it back at 10s recharge. It was ALREADY good at 10s recharge. At 5s recharge it's absolutely retarded. It's like watching Grenth Dervs again. Warriors training monks and using Rending Touch repeatedly whenever a prot worth stripping is on. Patccmoi 03:32, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd simply revert this change, the skill saw play before the change and now it completely decimates enchantments on its own. -Ensign 05:56, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I must say this one surprised me. A heavily played skill, already considered overpowered by many, gets a significant boost? There must be some backstory to this, and I'd love to hear it.
 * Skill was already viable and commonly used, completely unessicary buff.-- --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:210.9.137.97.
 * It already was a great skill before, now it's just broken. This change really needs to be reverted. --Draikin 11:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Signed. Needs 10 recharge again. -Void 13:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a freaken baby avatar of grenth! Anti Oath 14:00, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Already reverted to 8 second recharge, lol.

-	Considering how you downgraded Elemental Lord and have now buffed this skill, how can Elemental Lord really compare with the +2 attribute points offered by this skill? It just seems odd that this skill be so superior to its PvE-only counterpart...Are any changes planned? 99.245.143.39 05:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * increased duration to 25 seconds; increased number of Spells affected to 10.
 * I'd prefer if Elemental Lord would be changed to a sort of Universal Attunement that doesn't stack with other the attunement skills. Something like: 10/2/30 "For 30..60 seconds, all your elemental attributes are boosted by 1, and you gain 1 energy every time you cast an elemental skill plus 4% of the energy cost for every rank you have in Energy storage (maximum 30..50%)."--Skye Marin 13:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * XD, I use both. I think it's awsome that you made Glyph of Elemental Power better. As for Elemental Lord, it's fine at 1 because 20 is the limit you can get in an attribute.-- §  Eloc   §  15:56, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it's retarded how not only does it give you 15 seconds of buffed spells, but you can reset it anytime you want for practically no energy cost. If we need anything to get buffed, it's more ele skills.[/sarcasm] Shard 20:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Why this change instead of increasing the AoE? Are you really that worried that the game is going to suddenly explode if Fire gets an "in the area" spell? Fire is supposed to be the big AoE nuke line, but it doesn't get a single spell, not even elite, that goes to that radius? One could argue that even if Rodgort's Invocation had that radius it would still be inferior to Deep Freeze thanks to the latter's strong zero-attribute slow effect. I just don't understand it, but maybe you know something I don't. I'd be glad to be educated :) --Mysterial 02:43, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * decreased casting time to 2 seconds; decreased recharge time to 5 seconds.
 * Rodgort's Invocation is totally insane now. "In the area" probably would have been a better buff but you can't really complain about where this skill stands on the power scale.  Coupled with mind blast or dual attunes you will never need another AoE again. --Symbol 03:01, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, fire NEEDS an "in the area" nuke to be serious about itself in pve. maybe no burning target foe if they are below 50% health? --Lou-Saydus[[image:User Lou-Saydus Hail Storm.jpg|19px]] 02:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Seriously, Rodgort's is much, much stronger at 25/2/5 with Nearby than 25/3/15 with Area. You can basically throw 3 in that time, with less chance to be interrupted. Making it 25/3/15 with Area would be a nerf at this point. I really have no clue why anyone would complain about it except to say that it's too strong. Patccmoi 03:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Did you say fire needs a buff in pve? lolz &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090. 03:37, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Put it this way. If you hit one target _ONLY_ this skill is on par with lightning hammer, which is already pretty beefy in that regard.  Now consider that the line it's in (fire) is actually halfway decent at doing damage AND you get nearby AoE...yeah.  --Symbol 03:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, I think it's powerful enough, but it's less interesting IMO and with such a narrow difference in the skills it just makes it harder to find a place for the others. All of Fire basically does the same thing as it is and limiting the AoE is just hedging it in further. I felt similarly with the Smoldering Embers change a while back - sure, it's balanced now, but it's basically just Fireball, slightly different. Is that really better? --Mysterial 03:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure, it would be a more tactical skill at 25/2/15 with "in the area". But I'm not going to complain.  Fire really needed another good, _non-elite_ DD, and at least now RI allows for some skill bar compression since it's so good at what it does.  --Symbol 04:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You know what I would really, really like? If this skill was reverted back to how it was in Beta Testing, with the entire compass as its range : D I would love to see something like "You lose all energy. All enemies within compass range take 10...90 damage and begin burning for 1...3 seconds. 50 energy, 5 seconds casting time, 30 seconds recharge". Or even that, but within earshot. Of course, that is never ever going to happen, but it would be nice to have some Fire spell powerful purely thanks to a huge range, as opposed to doing huge damage. Would be the very opposite of, say, Lightning Orb. Erasculio 04:16, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh ya, i can imagine the teams with 6-7 Eles with 16 Fire + GoEP running around the map evading any fight but throwing Rodgort's on recharge to auto-spike everyone on the map (and any caster would instantly die or nearly, neato). Then they just run in range of the other team's base and instantly kill all NPCs. Then they turtle and wait for VoD by chain spamming Meteor Shower on anyone trying to approach them. And at VoD, they Glyph of Sac 7 Meteor Shower on Guild Lord and remove enchants on him. That would be great =p Patccmoi 18:15, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Heh, that was the extreme suggestion that is never going to happen :D But, as I said, I think it would be nice to have a Fire skill powerful thanks to its range, not thanks to its damage. The animation of this skill (a symbol appears at the caster, not at the target) always gave me the impression of a point blank spell with a long range - but I think it would be interesting to have it as something ranged but "in the area" with lower damage (or worse stats, as pointed above), in order to mark it as something different within the Fire Magic line. Erasculio 01:36, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Far too powerful in its current state, bump up the recharge to ten to at least match Glyph of Energy. Currently there are two sure-fire ways you can run this: with glyph of energy, or with dual attunements. Both ways provide plenty of energy to continually fuel the spell for maximum spammage.
 * I don't think this skill has become too strong. It's easy to interrupt and the cost is huge, especially if it is interrupted and you don't gain back the energy from attunements. One Power Leak and you're down almost 50 energy. Personally, I would have prefered 25/3/15 with in the area or maybe drop recharge to 12 with that... It would be a more strategic skill that way, but now that it's such a monster I say leave it like this. :D --TimeToGetIntense 05:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with the above. Interrupts totally ruin offensive casters, a 25e 2s spell cast every 7 seconds is asking for a pleak or a dshot to the face. If you can successfully play this character with a mes or a ranger camping you, you deserve a lot of damage IMO. By the numbers mind blast-RI is about as strong as prenerf SF (slightly less AoE damage, slightly more single target damage), except more flexible, and it doesn't scale up to retarded proportions if you have multiple copies of that character. That's fine since the scaling was the real problem anyway. --Symbol 10:44, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Reset Indent Ok so i am usually one for saying that skills aren't overpowered just learn to deal with them better. When you look at the numbers I would have thought the same, a very easy interrupt for anyone to catch on multiple proffessions and with the cost of not casting it being so high i would have thought it was perfectly balanced. But oh no! Along comes Mind Blast and solves all the energy problems, along with providing a decent amount of damage itself as well. The spell can now be cast so much more often than would be suggested by its numbers, and with huge amounts of damage to help. I can't say i've faced any in GvG yet but a lot in HA and people seem to be bringing them in groups of 3. stupid high amounts of damage and very difficult to shut down 3 of them. I'd say up the recharge to 8, or possibly even 10. As it is it's just too good and works too well with Mind Blast. -- ChronicinabilitY  04:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I was using this with Mind blast before it was popular! Darn now its probably going to get nerfed. Lord Raikage 04:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Last time I bring this up, I promise : P But about increasing range, how about this: "All foes within earshot are struck for 5...41...50 fire damage and set on fire for 1...3...3 seconds", under 25/2/15. You would have a spell with an incredible range, that would not be useful to spike (even 8 of those would do only 400 damage plus burning), would be hard to use in multiple characters at the same time (since they would have to stay close to each other, thanks to it being a point blank spell instead of a ranged one), yet would have a very strong sinergy with Glowing Gaze, Earthen Shackles, Ward of Weakness and even Searing Flames. Erasculio 19:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't agree with weakening this skill. If it's too spiky, sure, reduce the damage or something and make it In The Area, but Rodgort's eles now are scary without being broken. You certainly don't want to ball up in wards, of course. The Mindblasters are vulnerable to all sorts of shutdown -- power leak, power block, diversion, distracting shot, etc. Get out your fire shields, consider more +armor rather than +health to mitigate those big chunks of armor-respecting damage, and you'll see this hit not nearly so hard.
 * This is the new pre-nerf Searing Flames. Shard 20:19, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

It is more active now, but is more difficult to fight with removal and interrupts as well. Recharge should be slightly higher to compensate. -Ensign 06:01, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * decreased Energy cost to 10; decreased casting time to 1 second; decreased recharge time to 12 seconds; decreased duration to 4..10 seconds.
 * This skill needs longer recharge. --Black mischief 10:31, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed
 * Yeah I didn't change this one today as I wanted to see it play out a bit more, basically I feel the skill can be different from reckless because it synergises less with other Ele skills, but if worst comes to worse I'll just keep it inline number wise with Reckless. ~Izzy @-&#39; 05:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I faught a match where a team had a MoR Blurred Vision spammer - long story short - it was IMPOSSIBLE to ever not have blurred on the warriors, thus collapsing to spike was impossible, and made the game last the full time limit of the AT. Thus, it really needs a longer recharge. Kenshin 02:12, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

&
cool. maybe these find some use now. i have something like in my mind. - Y0_ich_halt 18:38, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That would have worked before the changes. Besides, Arc Lightning is crap, it has less damage than Flare, and Flare can be used at least 5 times as often. Even with the condition met, it is inferior to Flare, and thats saying something. --Deathwing  00:17, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Please make this make to the way it was. Mesmers are abusing this skill on RA/TA with a shutdown of Shame/Diversion // Guilt/Diversion. - Kiji 23:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Would be just as well off using Echo. --Deathwing 23:27, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "...Mesmers are abusing this skill on RA/TA..." You seem to have confused the word using with abusing! Yes it's being used...which is more than it ever was! Stop requesting nerfs for everything usefull in this game! -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 09:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Good buff, and works well with the new fast casting signet buff too. I can't think of any exploits off-hand if you buff it up to 3 spells. Maybe something like: Phantom Pain-> Signet of Illusions-> Blood Drinker-> Angorodon's Gaze-> Shatter Delusions? At least the recharge is nice and low. --Skye Marin 00:54, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Now affects 1...2 spells
 * Yes, consider allowing three spells to work with it. I mean, if Eles can get ten uses of a non-elite spell buff like GoEP.... --arredondo 06:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yahhh, this baby could use 3 spell uses at 16. Let's at least try it for a day. Even up the recharge to compensate. --Redfeather 06:08, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Okie, dokie. After playing around with the 2 spell uses, it seems just right for me. Maybe I am alone on that feeling. I don't know. --Redfeather 07:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

not really game breaking to change the scaling to 1 to 3 or even 1 to 5? When balancing that skill, I think we can take into account the fact that you cannot use an elite and you are 1 slot down in your skill bar, those are already very great limiting factors, taking rez into account, you can only have 6 skills on your bar and you can't take additional elite. I mean...just look at Glyth of Elemental Power now.... and it's not an elite


 * I think should be the highest amount ever considered. Sure if you bring a rez you only have 6 skills to play with, but that's 6 attributes to pick from. Even though nobody I've seen has a found an incredible SoI build, I'm sure  could lead to something crazy. --Redfeather 08:13, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Anything higher than 1..3 would spawn bars hitting 1,2,3,4,5... etc, which isn't much fun.--Skye Marin 13:34, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I've had a HUGE amount of fun with this, my office mates I'm sure are annoyed by the cackling, when I'm going on about how fun it was to steal someone Shadow Prison, then another guys Spirit Strength, and Vital Weapon, and start killing people as a Me/E. There are a bunch of crazy fun builds with this I'm sure. Probably the most fun character I've played in a LONG time. ~Izzy @-&#39; 05:24, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Heh, I guess that means we may not see a 1...3...3 spread anytime soon. Ah well, at least it was buffed (twice even, with the FC attribute now affecting Sigs). I'll play around with it more this weekend. --arredondo 08:14, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * lol. That sounds like a time I did an Alliance Battle with a skill stealing/Signet of Illusions build. I kept telling teammates how fun it was. I don't know if I was an asset to the group or a liability, but it sure was fun. I'm glad you like SoI Izzy. I hope it stays like this. --Redfeather 00:09, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Small bug i noticed with the skill : If you reuse Signet of Illusion while it's still active, it won't renew its amount of 'charges'. The exact example of when i noticed: i have 15 Illusion, i use Signet of Illusion and use Auspicious Incantation. I use Signet of Illusion AGAIN (meaning it wasn't over, i just used 1 spell out of the 2 charges) and then use Deep Freeze and Rodgort's Invocation back to back. Deep Freeze is at stats 15, but Rodgort's at stats 0, although i used Sig of Illusions just before activating Deep Freeze. I repeated this a couple of times with different skills to make sure that it worked this way. It's not a big deal in general, but i doubt it's intended and it slightly limits the versatility of what you can do with the skill. All in all though, the skill is VERY nice since the buff. If nothing else, AI + 25E spells giving back 52E (!) which fuels Clumsiness spam like nothing else is worth the elite slot alone. And it makes it much more fun to use Inspired Enchantment. Not only is it decent emanagement at ridiculously high Inspiration, stealing stuff like Aegis, or hell even Conjure is fun. Might even try other spell-stealing stuff, cause up to now using Clumsiness, Sig of Illusion, AI, Deep Freeze is already a fun build leaving me with 3 open slots for fun experiments ^^ I will agree that this is a very fun skill now that it's not so clumsy to use. Patccmoi 01:45, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * ^^Nice combo! One thing that makes it more fun to use to me is definitely the FC buff that affects Sigs. That alone is why it is more fun for me to use it, but the two spells per use is great as well. I'm running a straight forward build right now, but it works nice with the two buffs to this elite. I have the two Thievery/Larceny skills and both Inspired/Revealed Hex removals. Mixed with Distortion/Ether Feast for defense and a Level 15 Rez Chant from Sig of Illu, it is well rounded and enjoyable to play with.


 * There are other bugs however. I was also tried using SoIllu with Rodgort's Invocation, and although the Burning effect afterwards animates for awhile, it is actually only Burnng for 1 second instead of 3 seconds. I couldn't get Glowing Gaze to work after it and figured out why. --arredondo 04:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This needs to hit 3 skills to really start being worthwhile. You need to run a ton of Illusion skills at 2 still, and you end up burning one of your two charges fairly frequently on an Illusion skill.  Alternatively, if it worked on your next two non-Illusion skills it would be fine. -Ensign 10:13, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I really like the 2 non-illusion skills suggestion. That would help a lot so i can spam Clumsiness without having to recast this all the time cause i waste it on it. It's still already feeling worthwhile to me though. It's really nice to mix some Weapon Spells on a Mes too. Having a maxed Warmonger + WoW + Brutal/Splinter on same bar is pretty neat, and you don't have to spam those. Patccmoi 12:46, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I think Sig of Illu is the most bugged skill in GW. So many combos just don't work right. I've been posting what I find or read about in the Misc. Tweaks section. Hopefully the problems can be fixed. --arredondo 06:05, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * A random idea: this skill is very powerful as it is, but how about buffing it so it works with signets, as well as spells? It would (hopefully) make more signet builds viable, as well as strenght a bit the whole "Mesmers as signet users" theme. Not that it would change the game that much, given how there's no (viable) ways to steal signets, but maybe this would help a bit... Erasculio 18:54, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd like that but they need to fix the glitches first. I found another one in Frozen Burst... it never snares for more than three seconds. --arredondo 08:22, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * SoI is lots of fun now. Only thing is, as Arredondo pointed out, it's got a number of bugs! --Redfeather 15:31, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Note: Previous recharge was set to 35 as 35+1=30*1.2 Backsword

This skill is still somewhat popular in RA/AB and will never see play in serious PvP. The change just helps keep it up permanently and defend a little against strips. It does nothing to make it viable. --Tensei 23:42, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * decreased recharge time to 25 seconds.
 * Not sure why this elite is tampered with when so many other Mesmer elites have issues. --Shadetz X 23:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Gotta agree with that. This elite skill has no potential out of starter arenas like RA/AB/FA, not because of its stats but because of its NATURE (you don't want to be melee with a Mesmer. Not much else to add. And currently facing all the Rending Touch warrior what the hell would you do anyway, even with 10s recharge). There is SOOO many Mesmer elites that could be tweaked to be useful (soooo many of them are attrociously bad. Nearly everything added in Faction and NF ended up sucking, except maybe HEV, PD when Ghostly interrupt was so important in HA and Expel Hexes, mostly on /Me). Tease, Extend Conditions, Power Flux, Power Leech, Recurring Insecurity (absolutely horrible except for a gimmicky spike that's kinda gone now), Air of Disenchantment, Keystone Signet, and TONS of others... all of those are NOT competitive in ANY form of PvP. Mesmers have amongst the best selection of non-elite skills in the game (Domination is one of the greatest line ever), but elite-wise so much could be done to add options, especially since Mesmers are NOT elite dependant and so could fit nearly any of them if they were worth anything. Patccmoi 00:11, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * All they have to do is give it an inherent IAS effect. Or make it work on spears and bows. Or perhaps a +10 AL effect. I don't know. This is a spell that looked really cool when I first saw it, but never jumped out as an elite I'd want to put into anything but a 'purely messing around fun' build.--Redfeather 00:19, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill actually hurts your offense by preventing you from gaining adrenaline or using attack skills. Warriors base damage is nearly as much and often better than this skill, especially Axe Warriors. Warriors can apply Deep Wounds more effectively as well. Also, the Illusion Magic attribute lacks the tools to do anything besides apply degeneration and harrass Melee characters. Another issue is that IW consumes a lot of energy and the skills that actually do synergize with it also consume a lot of energy. It's a cool skill in concept, but it's been implimented very poorly. I don't think it will ever be good. --TimeToGetIntense 05:15, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * decreased duration to 5..20 seconds.

Thx lol. hate this skill so much when im playing assassin --72.74.237.104 01:16, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * LOL maybe that was you i pwned in pvp then with Spirit Shackles lol - Chrisworld 03:25, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Meh. Needed change, although 20 seconds might be too long still... we'll see. - Auron 04:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 20 seconds? Who the hell runs 15 Inspiration? On most bars, it will be around 15s, which is fairly long but it's also a 3s cast, so very easy to interrupt even at high FC. I think it's fine as is Patccmoi 14:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * i run 15 inspi. Signet of Illusions. ;D - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 14:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * and how much illusion? ;p &mdash; Skuld 00:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Heh IGN The gates Assassin, I doubt it though but at least this skill is manageable. Hard to get out without interupting and not too long of an effect, but it still has a huge shutdown effect to it. Very nice change.

Assassin
Overall i see this as a pretty bad update. The reasoning for the changes was - to diversify assassin skill bars.... In the many discussions it was noted that assassins as a whole were not overpowered, it was a certain build that was generally bad for the meta. Still it was one of the onlt truly competative builds for this profession. The community noted that yes, it was understandable that some things would have to get nerfed for this to be fixed. Still pretty much everone who commented also made another valad point. Leads and offhand chains as a whole were underpowered. There is a plethora of discussion on this in the various subpages so i wont go into details, but i personally feel that its pretty sad that not one lead or offhand got buffed to make up for the disruption of the sp sin bar. Actually, as it stands the SP sin is barely touched. BLS still gives a full energy recharge offering a 35 energy attack chain with the right gear. The current chain is BLS(NA) TF(10) BSS(10) other(5-10). The only real nerf to the sp bar is exposes recharge which just means the sp sin will just be using his combo a bit less often.--Midnight08 21:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


 * yup. sp wasn't really nerfed at all. the hex still lasts long enough to unleash the combo, the energy never mattered anyway (at least for me) and i haven't used expose for a very long time. so tbh, i'll still use this build if i wanna win. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 21:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


 * What happened to lower damage/energy on BLS? And why, WHY did you buff the only other straight offhand and leave all the Lead-Offhand-Duals untouched? Why are those combos absolutely and totally ignored while they consist of like 50% of the Assassin attack skills? This update will change mostly that Expose + SP won't be used as often at the same time. Without using Expose, the cost to BSS doesn't matter (and tbh just using Zealous weapon should be enough to keep the combo going even if you use Expose because BLS refills your bar. After BLS you have usually around 20E, which means it covers for the cost of dual-BSS-dual and with Zealous those give you enough energy for Impale). It's not necessarily a bad thing overall, but it's very far from what could've been done with interesting buffs elsewhere. I know you want to wait for GW:EN for Golden Fang Strike and Lotus Strike, but they won't see any play if lead-offhands aren't more viable as a whole. People won't bother with them when they can just straight offhands and ignore the leads because they all suck and when they can Impale for more damage and the DW in the end. It's sad to see 90% of the Assassin skills, many of which have very interesting potential, go to waste to only concentrate on skill bars having shadowstep-offhand-dual-offhand-dual and 2-3 other skills to improve the overall effect. And nothing here will change that. And nothing in GW:EN will change it either unless some skills start getting buffed. But i already gave all my suggestions for attack skills at least and i won't restart here... Patccmoi 22:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Mainly I felt it was either Nerf BLS or Expose Defenses, both seemed like overkill, and I don't think any of the current options for Lead-Offhand-Duals are going to be super viable, until GW:EN, the effects on those skills are just not worth the time you put into them. So until we rework the effects on those it's hard to make that work as all we've been doing is reducing costs reducing costs and reducing costs. Golden Phoneix strike is a bold change, and could be problemantic but in the end your not going to spend 3 skill slots to do your job when you really need 4 skills to make a good spike. In the end I think there is a lot of work to make the lead-offhand-dual work, and a lot of that work is int he GW:EN balance, until then Id like to get the other skills more inline and balanced with each other. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:14, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Lol i was waiting for yer reply here, i knew you'd be just as happy as i was when i saw this !@#$... --Midnight08 22:51, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * /signed on the crap assassin changes. At least the unusable shadowsteps got slightly buffed. Nothing new to play with though. --Deathwing 22:56, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I actually disagree that the changes are bad. I think that all of them are good. The problem is that a damn lot of others are lacking to make Assassins move away some day from offhand-dual-offhand-dual combos with no utility. And the change to GPS will likely not change much at all either, because you still need 2 offhands to make an offhand-dual-offhand-dual combo, and one of them at least is gonna need a hex. Since there's nothing buffed to make other kinds of Assassin builds viable... The only difference actually is i can see GPS being used in Moebius setups with enchants instead of hexes. This might become more interesting. But nothing else will really become viable, no new build will see play. And that's kinda sad seeing that most of the other classes get new tools to play with while they already had much, MUCH bigger build variety than Assassins (but then again, that's good for them and i'm totally for most of the changes, the updates as a whole is great, just disappointed that not more was done here) Patccmoi 23:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * In the end there has only ever really been one viable Assassin build at a time, the scope of what Assassins do is so limited, so the build that is used is going to be the best at what it does and finding a bunch of skills that fight for the same job is really hard. It's very much like a ranger, they have a ton of skills but you really only see the same 12 or so, so without forcing Assassins to just use a different build they are tricky to make diverse when in the end I think they will only ever become as Diverse as the ranger. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:24, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well i don't really agree. Assassins have a nice mix of direct damage, shutdown, and some very interesting utility especially in split. It's just all underpowered except for a few skills. Assassins could do a lot more than 'get in kill get out', but all the skills that COULD allow for more are slightly too weak to be playable. I mean, just the buff to Siphon Strength gave something pretty big to play with and i could play Sin in a totally different way. Somehow i thought my list of suggestion for Lead and Offhands could allow for various combos to be viable. I'm not saying they were necessarily the best suggestion, but i could picture doing various viable setups with those skills all with different advantages. The problem with Assassins is that everything else except offhand-dual was always underpowered, some stuff BADLY underpowered, so no they don't do lots, but that's because you never gave them a chance to. What's dangerous with lowering the Lead-Offhands recharge to 4s so that they can actually give an alternative to long combo with long recharge with slightly weaker combo but with much faster recharge? What's wrong with making some of the Assassin utility more powerful, especially their shutdown, so that they have a different way to kill with disabling their target even if they kill them slightly slower? So that they rely less on 'i click skills 1 to 8 and hope everything goes well' and instead controlling and shutting down their target while they kill them doing a Lead-Offhand-Dual combo twice? It's pretty easy to achieve that. You mostly need small buffs to some lead and offhands, and a bit of buffs to utility/shutdown skills such as Temple Strike, Golden Skull Strike, Shroud of Silence maybe, Blinding Powder and Caltrops so that their recharge matches what you can expect from self-condition removal, etc. Assassins could have so much more depth with the skills they have with some small buffs instead of being stuck with the same boring combo, playing in the same way of clicking skills 1 to 8 forever. Couldn't ONE combo be buffed at least? I dunno, reduce Leaping and Jungle to 4s recharge. Give us an option to TRY using a non-sucky lead-offhand-dual combo. Just one? Please? Patccmoi 23:47, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with everyone here, this is a very bad update overall for the assassin. Only 2 skills were buffed while the other one was just reverted back to the way it was a long time ago. BSS was nerfed instead of BLS, which makes completely no sense to me. The assassin has tons of skill that could be usable if they actually had decent stats. Why not just look at what everyone posted under the Underpowered Skills section? A lot of the stuff you will find in there would improve the assassin a lot. Sorry Izzy, but from an Assassin's perspective, this update fails miserably. Shendaar 00:48, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Mainly I felt it was either Nerf BLS or Expose Defenses, both seemed like overkill - If that was the logic, I think you made the wrong choice. Black Lotus Strike is what helped make that combo insane; nerfing Expose might make it a little more fragile but they'll just stick another skill in their 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 combo and won't really notice any difference since energy is still pretty much a non-issue.--Mysterial 01:47, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I would have to say this was overall a very disappointing change to the assassin. I had made some and seen many many suggestions to make assassins a somewhat diversed class by expanding its potential utility skills and shutdowns as well as allowing it to have the lead offhand dual combos that still serve a purpose but don't eat the entire assassin's bar. As it is all that has changed is the assassin is just a slightly less powerful killing machine with next to nothing to compensate for the change. The assassin is a really cool class and could potentially be a much deeper class if some changes were made, if the assassin were widened to have a mix of useful skills and attack skills that dont consume its bar then it wouldn't always be the most powerful combo is the metabuild you may actually see the sin playing as a part of the team aiding in shut down purposes pressure etc. instead of try to kill it if you do good if not wait till your combo recharges. So far the assassin has been a build and not a class which it really shouldn't be and just nerfing its most powerful combo wont change this.--DVDA 03:54, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well now all sins seem to run AoD-Shadowy Burden-BLS-Horns/Twisting-GPS-BoS/Twisting-Tiger's Stance. So i guess they moved from SP sins back to AoD sins using Shadowy Burden for a small snare and to make up for the damage loss. But it's the same old thing, played exactly the same way (actually AoD gives you an advantage for survival vs Expose which gave an advantage in killing, so it's slightly different), it just changed the skill names on the bar all in all. Patccmoi 04:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * HAHA the exact build i thought of 3 seconds after the update... pretty sad imho... Additionally BSS is now about useless in my normal builds.--Midnight08 04:21, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * In Hero Battles the changes to SP sins were minimal, they just replaced Expose Defenses with Siphon Speed which allows them to spike more often. The lack of Expose makes the spike more fragile but in the end it's just the same build which does the same amount of damage, you just have sins spending 55 energy every 12 seconds now instead of every 20. Since there were no changes to the energy gain from BLS they still have no problem using vampiric daggers during the spike either. This update won't change the way sins are dominating HB, at best Recall Mo/A runner builds will become more popular. --Draikin 10:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Good changes for the assassin in terms of GvG. Assassins place in gvg should really just be good for splitting (survivability) and then a bit stronger than a ranger when they collapse to force kills.


 * Why? Why should Assassins place 'only be in splitting'? What's wrong with them being viable at the flag stand too? They have tons of skills that could allow that by giving them some utility on top of killing power that'd be viable both at flag and in split, why not do it? I'm not saying they can replace warriors or dervishes, but we run a 'midline' sin with Siphon Strength and it's great both at flag and in split, it's much more interesting to have chars like that with versatility on the field to be 'forced' to split cause you brought an Assassin and he's designed to suck at flag. There's nothing wrong with them being viable at both places, and they don't lack much for it either. The current Assassin 'spike' build is fine with the nerf, but i don't understand why the rest doesn't receive any buff to make other Assassin builds viable too since the class could be so much more than press 1 to 8... but anyway i feel like a broken record repeating myself so i'll stop Patccmoi 14:25, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Same reason i havent replied to a few comments... We both made numeorous suggestions as did others to make the changes viable and useful for the profession and game and were pretty much ignored... Not much more we can do at this point except hope that more changes are coming with GW:EN--Midnight08 18:16, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeh, not only was every suggestion and comment pretty much ignored, what we ended up getting looks like nothing more than a cheap 5 minutes job. Shendaar 18:22, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Want to create more diversity in Assassin Bars? Make a handful of lead attacks 1/2 second attacks, and buff offhands with conditional bonuses equivalent to the new GW:EN Assassin attacks.--Skye Marin 23:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I know this was changed to make BLS,Dual,BSS,Dual less viable.. but this makes BSS less viable as a whole and i would have much preferred a lowering of BLS's energy gain and feel that would probably worked better to change things than this. Right now with basic testing, this makes many Hex/Shadowstep/BSS/Dual/Impale combo's very difficult to manage, I will probably now be forced to trade BSS for BLS and Tox for SoDC to compensate. Oh well i'll test but most likely i'll have to move to BLS like everyone else. --Midnight08 20:50, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * increased Energy cost to 10.
 * Yep this nerfed 2 of my non-SP builds. It should be fairly obvious that BLS is the sole skill fueling the entire SP build ... Just kill it already. Shendaar 00:33, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yea, BLS should be nerfed, not BSS. BSS is(or was) an awesome skill, it was part of one of my favorite(non SP) builds, the inscreased energy cost highly affected its viability. Even worse, the SP+IAS combo is still useable due BLS's energy gain, that's where the problem lies. --J0ttem 11:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What I don't understand is why BLS was left alone. Just compare the stats of BSS with those of BLS now: BLS actually does more damage for the same cost and gives you so much energy that it not only pays for itself but also for the rest of your entire combo. It's painfully clear which one of the two is the problem skill here. At these stats there's simply no reason to use BSS, except on a gimmick bar that already has BLS which just happens to be what SP sins are using. Because BLS is still the same nothing really changed, they can still use their instant-kill combo. The only thing that's different for SP sins is that they have to wait 5 extra seconds if they want to combine SP and Expose Defenses, or they can just spike every 12 seconds with Siphon Speed instead. That doesn't solve the problem: they're still able to use an 8-skill combo that takes only 5-6 seconds to execute and costs more energy than they have available in their entire energy pool. --Draikin 11:47, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Wrong Black attack nerfed imo.--Atlas Oranos 16:58, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

That wasn't too smart...that nerfed at least 5 of my other hex based bars because of this new rediculous change. Buff the crap, not nerf the useful. --72.74.237.104 01:13, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * increased recharge time to 25 seconds.
 * It is easier to nerf the decent skills than buff the retarded skills. --Deathwing 01:15, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Easier to but not better to --72.74.237.104 01:19, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Still a very good skill. 25r for a skill that gets around all blocking on an assassin is very powerful. -Warskull 04:03, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * yea, wont stop sp sins (which was supposedly the reason for the changes), just delays them, and is still probably the most powerful "ignore block" skills based on cost, recharge, and cast time (and lack of being conditional or otherwise limited.)--Midnight08 04:24, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Should be 15E. It's still one of the best unofficial elites since its power remains magnified with the virtually untouched Shadow Prison. --arredondo 06:08, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Just went into observer, Shadow prison is still meta. Try again Izzy --72.74.237.104 00:24, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd like to see the recharge at 20 seconds, the same as shadow prison - so that it isnt too powerful, and it isnt a wasted slot on your bar. Meh Kenshin 02:19, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If anything ED should be made impossible to work with SP. One or the other on a bar, but both shouldn't have the energy efficiency to exist together simultaneously.--arredondo 04:15, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Go watch obsi mode again, SP yes...Expose no...Siphon Speed is being used a lot more now, yes a few people still run expose but since everyone is now running zealous it makes the spike less powerfull and therefore survivable. I think this was actually a good nerf as it DID make it less efective but it didn't do as it did to ritspike and wipe it off the face of the earth! -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 04:23, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ya the nerf worked perfectly imo for the SP bar as a whole. It could've been done differently, but the result in the bars strength/diversity is likely what was intended and what can be expected of the concept (shadowstep, do a 'straight-kill' combo, have 1 skill for survival). I still strongly wish other type of bars than offhand-dual x 2 was encouraged, but i think those bars have a well balanced strength now and there's not a strickly superior one. I don't think his point was ever to remove it from the meta either, and so you SHOULD see SP sins still sometimes, but they're not the one and only dominating bar Patccmoi 15:52, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I actually haven't seen any sins in gvg since the nerf. Only at the beginning where people were playing with GPS.--Atlas Oranos 16:10, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * LOL I especially love the comment "My other 5 hex bars don't work now." Learn how to play guys.  Being able to mindlessly kill ANYTHING with 6 buttons was broken.  Try warrior, it takes skill. Shard 20:27, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

lots of love on this buff. awesome skill now. AoD = win &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090. 04:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * decreased Energy cost to 5.
 * 5 energy is a large difference on the aod bar ffs.
 * ok, so we get 1 more gimmick, im looking for something we can play with to do something different.--Midnight08 05:26, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * AoD sins are kind of a gimmick but they can be countered by a broad range of skills (all enchantment removal, melee hate, etc...). This is pretty much as balanced as Assassins are going to be able to get before the eotn skill balance where Izzy hopes to properly balance assassins.

At least you were nice enough to remove the insult... Once again, dont consider unusable balanced. Luckily SP was not really touced so assassins stil have their gimmicks, but even GW:EN isnt doing enough to add to sins, they need some real changes to their skills--Midnight08 05:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * AoD sins are a lot more flexible than SP sins, since they have some disruption, spike, and room for some random utility(blinding powder, crippling dagger, ddagger, stuff like that), and of course, ganking ability. SP sins you can do 1234567 or 81234567 or you could cut a few of those later ones off, but you're still doing only one thing: spiking every 20 seconds. --Edru viransu 20:47, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah I don't know what Midnight want's to do on his assassin.
 * I've shattered/drained like 10 AoD's since this last update. This buff is fun for Mesmers too! :D --TimeToGetIntense 05:28, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Must you continue directing insults at people anon?--Midnight08 07:07, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's good with moebius also. I've been using GPS + holy veil on my moebius blossom build and it's pretty leetsauce.  --Symbol 15:36, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Adjust Pensive Guardian accordingly. Servant of Kali 12:31, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't you just post in the Underpowered Skills section? And Pensive fails cuz' it is such a niche skill and won't see play when other catch-alls are superior. The skill would need a major overhaul. --Tensei 14:22, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Everything you said is true, but I still say buff Pensive Guardian. Let it be a niche but let it not be a completely useless skill. And with Aegis spam, Pensive Guardian doesn't need to be as bad as you think ;) Of course if it has 3sec longer duration than Guardian it's totally useless. Servant of Kali 14:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the change has made this skill a little too powerful. This skill is now like a cheaper version Weapon of Warding (last 8 seconds with +20% weapon mod) without the little health regen for 5 energy and 2 seconds recharge. Sure enchantments can get stripped but with 2 seconds recharge you can quickly recast. Suggest reducing duration by 1 seconds for every attribute. --Shadetz X 22:19, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The duration doesn't mean anything so this would be pointless. In comparison to WoW this skill is fine.
 * WoW is not removable. Guardian is actually good now, there's no problem with that. --TimeToGetIntense 05:29, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that Guardian is now too viable on non-monk professions to bring, that it seems a bit too powerful for 50% - I think that lowering the duration just by a little for unspecked guardian, or low specked, purhapse at about 1..5.6 would be better seeing as most people are going to use enchant mod'd weapons anywaysKenshin 02:22, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It is a perfect substitute for distortion on a Mesmer. Domination builds can now run Guardian. --Shadetz X 11:10, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I tried it on a Mesmer in RA and it worked out really well. I don't think it would be worth taking on a non-Monk anywhere else though. --TimeToGetIntense 21:28, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

^^ in general. Its going to be really powerful.--Renegade 21:13, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * decreased casting time to 1 second; increased recharge time to 8 seconds.


 * whoo, i just found a new favorite skill. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 21:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this skill just became great. --Deathwing 21:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Cure Hex will be concurrence, though. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 23:06, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Please. The only thing this skill has over any other skill now is superior recharge, but it lacks a secondary effect which makes all the other hex removals more attractive. And for the record, deny hexes + divine spirit still removes hexes faster than remove hex. --Tensei 23:32, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Unlinked = gg --Lou-Saydus[[image:User Lou-Saydus Hail Storm.jpg|19px]] 02:53, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That makes no sense. Deny Hexes requires another skill for it to be good. Divine Spirit by itself is pretty crap and Sig of Devo doesn't work too well with it either. Now you can have a fast hex removal + another good skill for use. 76.64.191.219 04:05, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You obviously don't play SoD much. And you can't argue that Remove Hex > Holy Veil. For what it's worth, Remove Hex will always be the Orison of hex removal. --Tensei 14:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Will be pretty useful for a midline character though. Then again they could just take purge.--Atlas Oranos 16:11, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I think you didn't really hit on what's wrong with the skill. The recharge didn't matter so much (although a reduction there is definitely good), i mean how often do you plan to have someone on your team dying or getting so close to it that any wand attack after JI triggers will kill it? The problem is that nobody wants to let someone drop to 0 health, ever. The skill would be much better if it triggered when the guy drops below 25%, or even 33%. Then you could use it but your monks could still actually save the guy before he's at 0 too Patccmoi 22:56, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * decreased recharge time to 8 seconds.
 * There is no illusion that the problems with this skill are in it's functionality, but we where just looking for some buffs here and there and just figured this could be 0r and it would probably be balanced, using something on someone who's about to die that doesn't save them is well pointless, and we know this skill really needs a rework to become viable. So this is just to play around with some numbers really. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:16, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It might break with Air of Enchantment and Zealot's Fire if it had a 0 recharge...for all the wrong reasons of course. -Ensign 00:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I guess if Shadow stepping addrenalin spikes become popular, and 2 warriors using frenzy spike a target and are hit with this, and they're attacking with Crude swing, thats like a bagilion damage! I would have rather seen reversal of damage buffed :( Anti Oath 23:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

You could find a little bit of use on a minion, maybe, or AB where NPC's and minions die all the time. If you'd like to make the skill interesting and somewhat worth the smiting investment, have it do its damage at 25..50% health.--Skye Marin 01:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Change to all nearby foes take x dmg :D! --Lou-Saydus 03:03, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I tried this in RA and I've scored 2 kills with it out of perhaps 20 matches. Both times I died as well. Pretty amusing but still a pretty terrible skill. Maybe if it prevented the next 5 or so damage sources and the damage was reduced? Also the duration would need to be reduced a little too. --TimeToGetIntense 21:39, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It just needs to trigger before. You never want to let some1 drop to 0, and so a skill that does it just won't see play. The only exception could be pets. For example, in HA, Thumpers that can expect their pets to get heavily DPed and die constantly could mix Judge's Insight on a Smite + Putrid on a Necro to make a damn big blast when a pet dies. But it won't be used on players ever if you need to reach 0 health for it to trigger Patccmoi 15:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm, yeah. How about... For 6 seconds, the next 2...6 times target ally takes damage with 33% health or less, that damage is reduced by 50% and all nearby foes take 20...56 holy damage.


 * I would prefer something like: Enchantment Spell. For 10 seconds, the next 2..10 times target ally receives damage that would be fatal, the damage is negated and one nearby foe takes 30...100...120 damage. That way it could actually gain time so a healer can save the player while punishing the enemy for that. It would be awesome vs spikes! of course too vulnerable to enchant removal as it should be. Coran Ironclaw 15:34, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * That's pretty much a 10 second invincibility that deals damage too. It would probably kill one of or both of the enemy Warriors really quickly too. My suggestion takes into account what happens when you scale up the number of hits. Taking half damage once you're below 33% isn't invicibility, but it should really slow down spikes and give the support more time to react. The damage would only be fatal if the enemy Warriors stayed in Frenzy for all 6 hits and didn't get protted or healed. --TimeToGetIntense 22:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * What about cutting the damage in half and replacing it with life stealing? -- Gordon Ecker 23:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Not a necro skill, is it? Backsword 23:45, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * They could call it healing and damage, but I still think that life stealing fits the theme of Smiting Prayers. -- Gordon Ecker 23:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It is not invencibility in any way, target would still be extremely vulnerable to degen and enchant removal and the number of damage negated can be quickly be exhausted for example a simple sun and moon slash with conjure count for 4 damage, a dual shot with order count for another 4 and so on. Maybe 120 damage in return is a lot, it could be reduced to 50 or 60. Coran Ironclaw 04:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

uhm? explanation? make an already very energy intensive skill even more energy intensive? :S --Lou-Saydus 03:00, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * decreased recharge time to 3 seconds.
 * Yet another change that makes no logical sense whatsoever. Shendaar 03:22, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I suggest pumping the heal from or similar.  In an era of efficient monking, you want an efficient elite.  Sometimes, that means narrow stuff like RC, but a good "Swiss Army Knife" would be nice if the meta shifts.  Even performing two of its functions (heal/cond removal/hex removal) Blight is a little weak right now, I never felt recharge-limited with it.  ~Seef II &lt;☎|→&gt; 05:33, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I recomend an additional clause: If you remove a hex or a condition, you gain 1...2 energy. Sword.wind. 04:27, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * its more usefull now to remove mutiple things on a shorter notice, and then sit back a while to recharge some energy. i also feel the heal could have a minor buff, maybe make it more like healing touch and let it give double divine favor? this skill is always ran on 14 divine anyway wich would boost all together to a 153 heal wich would baiscly make it into an elite cure hex from the upcomming gwen.84.192.118.21 09:25, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I support Moriz's fix for BLight: (5E, 3/4 cast, 3 or 5 recharge) Heal for X, remove a condition and a hex. If a hex is removed, you lose 5 energy. The healing also needs a 20-35HP boost, as Seef II suggests. Now, it becomes a fusion of GoH, Mend Condition and the GW:EN Cure Hex. Soleil 12:34, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I would love to see BL cost 5 energy and have a slightly higher recharge...and I agree the healing needs to be boosted a little.
 * Thats actually an interesting suggestion. The problem with BL right now, is that it is quite inefficient unless you actually remove both a condition and hex. Lowering the cost to 5e when no condition and hex is removed would make it a much more efficient skill overall. Shendaar 15:51, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, something like 5e, 5/6r could perhaps work, but I do not think the additional -5e is needed (or a +e clause). The healing is still about 30 points lower than Gift and far away from ZB, but it could be toned down to about 80 on 12 Divine. I don't think though it will ever be viable on 10e, even if you did give it ZB's heal power. – Rok (talk) 21:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd rather see energy cost and heal decrease rather than a recharge decrease. 10 energy is very energy intense especially if you forgo an elite slot for energy management.

+1 for moriz's change &mdash; Skuld 00:29, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Ditto :D--Atlas Oranos 22:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. +1 Shendaar 01:55, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

My idea to make this skill popular is lower the heal to something like 80/70 at 12 divine, 5e, 3r, and remove one hex and condition. Thus it is spamable, and not a powerful heal. Kenshin 02:27, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It definentlalually needs 5e instead of 10. less healing tho Anti Oath 04:44, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the shorter recharge was a good change, but this skill still needs a boost on healing imo. This skill shines on Arenas :-) - Kiji 16:10, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That change was actually a nerf. Less useful with Deny Hexes now. Noone ever used Blessed on recharge. 84.136.241.192 19:13, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If this skill becomes 5 energy recharge would need to increase or this skill will become an insane hex and condition removal engine. Another way to balance would be to make this skill 5 energy and return recharge to 5 energy and reduce healing but add the condition to the skill where if target ally had a hex or condition you lose 2 energy. --Shadetz X 01:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

What I'd like to see happening to BL is an increase in healing to around 140 at 14 df, increased recahrge to 5 and if both hex and cond are removed you gain 7 energy or so. Makes it an alternative for ZB on flag runners, increases it's potential in RA/TA and enables it as a skill to go in pair with a lod monk in a gvg. -Auren ^^


 * decreased Energy cost to 10
 * decreased area-of-effect range to earshot.

In my opinion the most important change of the update. I guess everybody will agree it is a nice change. It will lead to more active play, will make it more energy efficient in PvE (where you don't spread much anyway), it should allow another class than ele. Well a huge change. We can also imagine it will be replaced by Heal party on the runner bar, and well I doubt it a lot, but leaving the group heal to another character should lead LoD not to be mandatory ! Well great change ! --Faena 09:27, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Goodbye midlines with multiple casters, hello all-para midlines. :(  Errr 10:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill has officially fallen off the flag runner's skillbar and is back on the monk's where it should to be. --Ckal Ktak 08:09, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * ... and dual para teams are everywhere, like I predicted. YAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNN.  :(  Errr 16:04, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

General
luv it. - Y0_ich_halt 21:49, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Very good update. Unlimited Escape FTW! ~ Kurd [[Image:User Kurd sig.png]] 21:53, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Plenty of good changes, but a few snags that i hope will get ironed out after the test week...--Midnight08 22:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There's no unlimited Escape, duration was reduced to 1..8 =p And ya, as a whole it's a very good update, just hope a few more fixes will be in place before the end of test week. Patccmoi 23:07, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

ugh, good update? all this did was make most offensive builds more energy intensive and gives even more of an advantage to monks when it comes to healing. the whole protection line needs reworking as it is much more effective at healing than healing prayers is, which is really backwards. --Lou-Saydus 02:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't write about the update if you don't know what you're talking about. Everyone already knows about healing prayers. Protection spells make the game far more fun so it's not a big problem.
 * Once again GWW:NPA - thats not much better than the origional comment you had there (which was "shut up noob")--Midnight08 05:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

why are people always so mean? did i really warrant a flaming for saying healing/prot should do what they sound like? I mean seriously, geeze take a chill pill. --Lou-Saydus 06:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If everything you say is troll bait, don't get pissed when people troll. Seriously, the flame game is a two-way street.- Auron 06:55, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

This update just removed Faction classes from GvG.
 * Change GvG to Competative PvP (most people dont count RA/TA/CM/and AB as such, and theyre still going to be found in those places) and yer right--Midnight08 09:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I must say i realy though Rit-spike should be nerfed, however the exhasution overload on ritualist is kinda overkill, if u want to stop rit-spike u have to ake on the core of their build wich is the high dammage and the recharge. Alternative rit-spikes still can be played with stuff like channeled strike and gaze from beyond. Reducing the dammage and increasing recharge woulde been a nicer way of nerfing it since now its UTTERLY pointless yet if you just added more recharge and less dammage it was still a semi-viable build but not overpowered, since the pike would be always lower and as an adition less renewable or the team would be less resilient. Wich would have made them a hard but possible team to compete against.84.192.118.21 09:34, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

It's a good update, but:
 * A major Rt nerf (which is for the most part good and I support it), but Communing was turned into a total support line, much like mesmers Inspiration. It would be great if focusing on Communing still payed off, but in a different way. Counter-balance the nerfs with buffs to utility skills such as Dulled Weapon (suggestions posted in Underpowered skills section), Restoration (skill), Xinrae's Weapon etc. Please note that a tweak to Xinrae's will not make it playable in absolutely any part of the game. The skill should have (at the very least) 5 energy, no exhaustion, 10sec recharge. It's an elite, and you have to cover your team with other weapon spells to mask this one, and it's too much of a situational elite because it only really works against few specialized spike team builds outside of which is useless. In other words, even if you know you'll fight spike team, this elite would do nothing IMO, as it currently is.
 * Assassin overview was made by others already, no need to repeat it.
 * Still no buff to zillion of useless game elites (Archer's Signet, Visions of Regret etc). However, at least some of the utterly useless skills (Attacker's Insight..) were buffed, and I hope this becomes a positive trend.
 * Paragon is left untouched, but since a whole profession is an absolute mess, I assume no one really feels willing to bother with it.
 * Smiting Prayers need tweaking. Suggestions are posted in Underpowered section. This attribute line is suffering from the same problem as Channeling did - it consists of mostly raw damage skills (well, those who are usable) so it's either too strong, or too weak. The solution is in diversifying skills, making them conditional in an interesting way. Generic armor-ignoring direct dmg skills are ftl.
 * Earth spells lacking. No one wants an attribute line which is only good for self-healing and not much else. And I'm not a huge fan of support attribute lines. Yes, that means I would prefer if having 16 in Inspiration actually meant something :) Servant of Kali 12:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

This is probably one of the better if not best update yet(except for the exhaustion). The game feels like it has attained a level of balance that it hasn't had in a while. Jigoku 13:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes-- §  Eloc   §  15:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Obs mode broken (again)
After every update, the GvGs don't show up. The HB's are never affected by this bug, and HoH sometimes is, sometimes isn't. I would think by now ANet's expecting this to happen with every update (because it does) and attempting to pre-emptively fix it (or at the least, patch it up quickly afterwards)? - Auron 06:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe Izzy is farming Champion points with Rending Touch and doesn't want you to see it ? ;))))) Servant of Kali 14:54, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Or else he want peopel to think of there own builds :D Anti Oath 20:24, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Disregard that remark, it seems to have been fixed.--Atlas Oranos 22:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Victory or Death
Players are also doing bonus damage to Guild Lords. --Tensei 01:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, double. I brought the issue up over here. - Auron 06:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)