User talk:Raine Valen/Srs PvE/Builds/Underworld/Quad Phys

"painway"
I want to run this:

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 * Calls for hexes.
 * Pumps out Barbs/MoP/Splinter damage like no one's business.
 * KDs and interrupts shit.

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 * Pumps out Barbs/MoP/Splinter damage like no one's business.
 * Qknocks off the other war's BH for ''massive focking Wastrel's damages".
 * Puts up Aria so dervs can remove Migraine while removing Migraine.

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 * Uses Cruel Spear every four seconds for big DW.
 * Uses Wild Throw to remove Whirling Defense to steamroll Mountains.
 * Maintains Aggressive with "TntF!".
 * Dark Fury subs for Focused Anger.
 * Puts up Aria so dervs can remove Migraine while removing Migraine.

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 * Parasitic Bond offsets sacrifice cost (which is a metric fuckton).
 * Spams Barbs/MoP/Orders on recharge for like 0 energy.
 * Has like EIGHTEEN CURSES, guys!

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 * Puts "!!" all over the motherfucking screen.
 * Removes Shield of Judgment like a baws.
 * Cries Meteors and shit all day.
 * Fleshes like a pro.

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 * Weapons all around!
 * Party heals on top of more party heals.
 * Siphons Life on drop and pop for TWICE THE ENERGY!

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 * Uses every prot skill on recharge. Wish I could fit Aegis on here.
 * Gets a million energy from Orders.
 * Doesn't explode to eles because VoP is a beast.

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 * Redbars on a level that can only be described as "epic".
 * Gets a million energy from Orders.
 * VoP still owns ele damage.

Fun and balanced! &mdash; Raine Valen    21:57, 10 Nov 2010 (UTC)


 * There's absolutely no reason for dblow and BH to be on the same bar. There's little enough reason for BH in the first place, since you have a panic with cry, but whatev.
 * Hundblades is good damage, but if you're packing BH and expecting it to be useful, you need dslash.
 * Frenzy and Rush are absolutely terrible in PvE. Using Frenzy is basically asking to be one-shot; using Rush is... pretty lame, since nothing in PvE has a speed boost or ever attempts to kite. Bring Drunken Master and buy some beer, it's not expensive. (I really don't know what your obsession with Frenzy is all about; even before EotN it was never used in PvE. Even before Flail existed, you didn't use it in PvE unless you were friends with the monk [I was].)
 * I'm honestly not sure how often you'd be able to use a res sig.
 * Stunning Strike is the best spear mastery elite, but you dropped it for Cruel Spear. Why?
 * I would not take five of the skills on that paragon bar. This is the second or third PvE paragon bar I've seen you make, and the second or third time I've had that reaction. You are no longer allowed to make PvE paragon bars. Furthermore, you have no agg refrain. This is a serious problem. Also, Dark Fury under no circumstances subs for Focused Anger.
 * 18 curses on the two best curses spells in the game is nice, but it's still only two skills. No one cares; you're a ton better off converting this guy to a healer of some sort (D/N or N/Rt or something). Also, Cultist's is weak and pbond is unnecessary with two monks. Once again, this is not PvP. As it is, this character does pretty much one thing (buffing physicals), and does it unimpressively, but since he's the only one you have, he's a requirement. That's a huge, huge problem.
 * You have WW and Channeling but no GDW and Splinter, much less a ward honor, CoP, or anything like that. Priorities, hon.
 * Resilient is pretty much useless. DwG is poor. It's nice that you have GDW and Splinter, but there's only one guy and he needs to cover three physicals (and splinter falls off fast). Xinrae's, MBaS, and Spirit Light over Resilient and Siphon/Death Pact would be much better (and since you're not using your primary for anything, N/Rt would be better too).
 * Two monks and only three physicals. Problem.
 * LS and boon are cute, but ineffective. UA is ridiculously good and frees up a slot on every character with a res. VoP is smart, but if you actually had someone maintaining SY and dropping TNTF here and there, it'd be completely unnecessary.
 * SB is useless on the same bar as PS. Infuse is retarded for the same reasons as Frenzy. The risk/drawback thing of these two skills is balanced in PvP, where it's "I can use this for awesome effect but I risk being blown up in a few seconds if I'm not careful", but not in PvE, where it's "I can use this for awesome effect BUT I'M GOING TO DIE IN THREE SECONDS OR LESS".
 * I'd almost argue for Cure over Veil (preveiling migraine is a waste when you have 2x aria, or even 1x aria), but attributes. Up to the player, I guess.
 * What the fuck is this orders you speak of gaining energy from?
 * You have 11 PvE skills out of a potential 24. Try again, but start each bar off with two PvE skills and see if you can add in a third. For example, there's no reason not to have Technobabble on the necro, nor to skimp on things like Asuran Scan, Sneak Attack, Ward Honor, YMLAD, etc. Your goal is 20 17 PvE skills (and I'll admit there's a few missing on my build, too).
 * -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 05:51, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

"nigger add emanage" - Auron 07:43, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I use PS and SB on the same bar quite often. PS against ridiculous level 30 enemies and on idiots with less than 500 health, and SB against pretty much everything else on HM. They also work together on something with at least 600 health. But my protting style may be different from yours.  Koda  [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_UT.jpeg‎|19px]]  Kumi  10:38, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * actually there are problems with that on two levels. firstly they are largely redundant and in most cases one will work for any situation (PS is generally stronger for pve hardmode), but the bigger problem is that raine is bringing monk prots at all. they're bad. the build has an imbagon (well raine's imbagon build is kind of bad, but it's still got tntf/sy) and that's more prot than a prot monk can ever dole out. if *anything*, all i would run on a prot monk is aegis. that's it, end of. when you have 100 armor on everyone on top of 35% damage reduction, the monk's job changes to redbarring and keeping physicals clean of blind, cripple and hex snares so they can do their job. SMS only ran with 1 monk - if we had 2, the second was full smite or had a ton of pve skills for damage, because there honestly aren't very many good monk skills (let alone enough to bring two monks with no offense for).
 * Raine, I think your problem is you're stuck in the wrong mindset. PvE isn't about being honorable, it's about abusing retarded and broken shit. The imbagon, if run properly, makes the entire party invincible, thus negating the need for full bars of prots on other characters. You could drop one of the monks entirely and run another physical and still not die to anything. If you feel that the single imbagon isn't enough mitigation (lol), your next option is to run what Armond has on his page - an elementalist breaking the game with ether renewal, keeping powerful defensive prots on backline while turning the frontline into ridiculous powerhouses with soh and constant aoe from zealot's fire procs. all of this without running out of energy. compared to that, a prot monk is doing... what exactly? he's just standing there for the most part, and he definitely isn't rocking face.
 * armond already hit most of the points I wanted to mention, so I'll cut the rest of this short and make it a list.
 * • skills that are bad for pve:
 * dblow (does no damage), S&MS (no bonus damage), frenzy (bad), rush (bad, should have celery or DM), brace yourself (IAU), cultists, awaken (lol what are those doing there), channeling, both wastrels, resilient weapon (healing breeze is better than this), glaive (pbaoe range and lack of emanagement kill this), pot (better done with spirits, monks and elementalists), the entire prot bar (including veil), infuse, and res sig (lol)
 * • skills that are mediocre for pve:
 * pbond, selfless spirit, panic, mirror, mark of pain, barbs (mop and barbs are 1. too slow to cast on a target, physicals will generally kill anything in ~2-3 seconds, which gives these anywhere from less than a second to maybe a second of effect time, on top of their long ass recharges leaving them unavailable for most enemies), cruel spear, brawling headbutt (GDW does this with autoattacking)
 * easy way to make the build better is to delete everything in column a and make damn sure that anything in column b is there for a really good reason. - Auron 13:11, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * But then the question becomes, why not run 8 assassins (or whatever the build is now)? If you're going for efficiency, why settle for anything less than the most efficient possible method?  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  1:02, 12 Nov 2010 (UTC)


 * Also, my opposition to Drunken master is that it requires cons (alcohol) to be awesome, unless you've got essences. PvE skills are one thing, cons are another (one costs time, which isn't asking anything of some people who would've done it, anyway; the other requires money, which is always asking something of someone).  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  1:11, 12 Nov 2010 (UTC)

iDerped.-- Briar    The Spider  01:19, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, I put Frenzy/Rush, but, in my head, it reads "IAS/IMS"; I couldn't care less which ones people actually take. Drunken master + alcohol is fine with me, as is flail + echarge.  Or whatever.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  1:11, 12 Nov 2010 (UTC)
 * Dearest Raine Using alchohol in no way whatsoever means that you have to use money. Regards Fronis Irontoe P.S. Check out my lair! Also at max dwarven rank its still pretty good without booze imo "10...15-25...33"


 * I just bought two consets for <7k. Your argument is invalid. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 18:48, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Sins With Malicious Strike
Are redundant, and should be replaced with something like farmer's scythe, or if you want to be lolgay, crit defenses. You should be critting consistently enough, anyway. 75.159.70.219 02:24, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * no -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 02:29, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * To clarify, please reread the first section. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 02:33, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Why do people hate rangers? :(
--Sharkinu 12:53, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Because Panic is broken. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  16:14, 30 Nov 2010 (UTC)
 * Also because rangers can't dps like a warrior or paragon. Bow attack speed is quite low! (Also when was the last time your ranger could tntf worth a damn) -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 16:47, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Two things a ranger can do; Splinter (or GDW) Barrage and Edge of Extinction.-- Neil • User Neil2250 sig icon6.png 17:13, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * EoE is good, yeah. However, it can be taken on a secondary just fine. Barrage (really IA because six foes is slightly unrealistic) is bad because you lose out on soh. You need to make up for that somehow, and spending a lot of energy on a ranged scythe auto attack isn't going to do that. Splinter is always nice. All in all, though, melee (specifically crit scythe) is just better. It takes a lot to make up for that damage; tntf+sy is enough, and es is too, but aoe gdw isn't es. I'd take a ranger if I couldn't get enough physicals, but not over a strength scythe's damage or a motigon's party support. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]]  18:48, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Escape daggers outdamage critscythes because they attack 4-5 times every 3 seconds (which is retarded). With a decent level of buffs (your build has a LOT OF THEM!), the bonus damage stacks up faster than the base damage.  As if that weren't enough, DB brings +80 damage to the table every 3 seconds (or 2 seconds, with a second off-hand) and Fox Fangs throws in +30 or so.  R/As also move lolfast and are immune to every kind of damage.
 * But bows are still pretty suq. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  19:16, 30 Nov 2010 (UTC)
 * Only db is good in that chain, and it takes a while to set up (compared to the average kill rate). -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 19:28, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Daggers only ever outdamage scythes when the elite is moebius and you never change targets. Escape dagger rangers don't outdamage anything, except possibly touch rangers. - Auron 19:59, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * GDW and SoH would like to have a word with you. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  20:08, 30 Nov 2010 (UTC)
 * To clarify:
 * Jagged + FF + DB in Armond's build would deal:
 * 4(13+15+18+8) + 4(7 to 33)*1.15*1.2 + 30 + 2(40) damage, for a total of 366 to 458 damage in 4 attacks over a period of ~0.78 seconds (33% IAS).
 * The scythes he's currently running can attack twice in about the same timespan (with any normal-activation attack plus a 1s activation attack; this actually takes slightly longer, at ~0.92 seconds), dealing:
 * 2(13+15+18+8) + 2(9-80)*1.15*1.2*1.32 + 2(30) damage, for a total of 198 to 460 damage in that timespan.
 * Also of note, higher-level mobs (like those found in UW) take less base damage than the figures I used; this is a huge portion of scythes' damage, but a relatively small part of daggers' damage. Also, I used low-end figures for GDW (the SoH and OoP numbers are spot-on, based on his atts); as GDW's damage increases, the difference between dagger and scythe damage increases.
 * tl;dr buffs make fast weapons > slow weapons. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  20:34, 30 Nov 2010 (UTC)
 * But why ranger? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 20:41, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Expertise > crit strikes for energy management when foe level > x (x is somewhere below 20). A ranger can spam that chain literally forever without energy issues.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  20:58, 30 Nov 2010 (UTC)
 * I also forgot to calculate for AoHM; that should put the numbers closer. Not close enough to match, I wot, but closer.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  21:11, 30 Nov 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  15:57, 1 Dec 2010 (UTC)


 * GDW and SoH are standard for every melee bar in the entire game. They are assumed. If you add GDW and SoH to two builds - one that does, say, 500 dps and one that does 300 - they will both be increased equally. Attacking faster on a single target with the drawback of having a ramp up time for optimal dps make dagger skills in general subpar - but the best one is still moebius death blossom. In reality, it isn't feasible - targets die too quickly, and so you have to start the chain over again (which loses DPS). This is why scythes are better - they have no ramp up time.
 * This is really my problem with you as a PvEr. You know the theory, but you don't know the reality. Against the master of damage in the isle of the nameless, moebius death blossom is still (most likely) the highest DPS possible in the game - when you can sit there, not move, not swap targets and start the chain over again, just spam aoe like hell. In reality (which isn't on the isle of the nameless), targets have fixed health - only a few hundred. Most of what you fight is trash. A bar that can quickly move from foe to foe and maintain a high damage output is far superior to one that must stay on a single target for an extended period of time, even if the second bar has a higher maintained DPS in the isle of doesn't-fucking-matter-to-pve. Assassin chains aren't viable in high-end PvE if you're trying to pump the numbers. The most viable one is, as I mentioned, moebius death blossom, because it has less ramp up time than other sin builds in addition to having more AoE damage - but it still has a ramp up time, and swapping targets as quickly as PvE demands will lower a dagger sin's damage output immensely. Crit scythe builds just maintain rather long enchants with short cast times, pop an instant activation buff, and blow shit away with short recharge attack skills that don't require a chain. Dagger assassins cannot compare.
 * And all of this is without getting into how bad taking a defensive elite is in PvE. Escape is a pile of shit. - Auron 20:43, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess I should add a TLDR too - dagger chains are fucking useless no matter what they are. No amount of buffs bring them up to par with crit scythe (with the same buffs) in the standard PvE trash-filled environment. - Auron 20:45, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Here's where you're wrong: the attack rate is directly proportional to the output from every buff on the character. With daggers, the attack rate is stupidly high.  With scythes, it's significantly lower.
 * Ramp-up time is a valid consideration! It's just that because Jagged and Fox Fangs are stupidly fast, the ramp-up time is only a third of a second higher, and the payoff more-than-justifies it.  Mobieus/DB would be higher DPS, as you said, but, in that case, the ramp-up time is much higher (and that makes it bad against trash mobs).  I included the attack time in my math wall, and you'll notice that the time a scythe sin spends attacking twice is longer than the time a ranger spends launching a full four-attack chain.
 * The other issues that you mentioned - inability to swap targets, mainly - is a huge issue with M/DB sins. Sins with jagged strike don't have that issue at all.  In other regards, daggerspam is better than Armond's sins: for example, spam-dagger chains don't cast anything, ever (every second matters, right?).
 * As far as the elite, it doesn't matter. They can take any elite; I said escape because it's the traditional elite for that bar.  It could just as easily be any other skill.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  20:56, 30 Nov 2010 (UTC)
 * Assault Enchantments, Flashing Blades, Golden Skull Strike, Temple Strike, Mark of Insecurity, Beguiling Haze, Assassin's Promise (if you're using LR for some reason.), Rampage as One, Infuriating Heat, Scavenger's Focus... 199.216.252.3 21:14, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, I didn't calculate Asuran Scan because it's linear - the damage increase is a percentage that's exactly the same for either bar. The other buffs' payoffs are based on attack rate; soora scan's is not.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  21:07, 30 Nov 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, I forgot to calculate for EBSoH. It increases daggers' damage per period by 32-60; it increases scythes' damage per period by 16-30.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  21:10, 30 Nov 2010 (UTC)
 * Adjusted. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  15:57, 1 Dec 2010 (UTC)
 * You also forgot crits. Scythe sins get a lot of damage from a lot of crits. If you have time, why don't you calculate that against a level 26 foe? Also modeling multiple targets would be nice. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 23:26, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Specifically useful would be damage ranges and averages (adjusted for crit rate -so hit for 10 and 50% crit chance for 30 would average to 20 damage per swing), and how armor and enemy level affect the calculations. Data regarding level 30 casters is probably most useful, plus trends. When does db damage outdo critscythe on aoe? Is there a double strikes build that beats other builds on single target damage due to buff procs? Can you build a double strikes sin with enough aoe to be useful? Will a jagged strike build realistically get off multiple combos before things die, or do recharges fuck it over? Can someone move all the theorycrafting to the quad phys talk? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 01:26, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As far as recharges go: jagged -> ff -> db -> jagged from 2 rangers is probably enough to kill a target. Death Blossom might even click on one ranger.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  15:57, 1 Dec 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, AoHM is broken so my calculations are fucked and I need to redo all of them. I'll start a new section for that, since this is getting kind of long.
 * Also, AoHM is broken so my calculations are fucked and I need to redo all of them. I'll start a new section for that, since this is getting kind of long.

Bonus Damage Theory

 * Base Damage:
 * Daggers: 7-17
 * Scythes: 9-41


 * Attack Cycle Time:
 * Daggers: >2
 * Scythes: 1
 * Note: Attack rate is calculated given dual attacks' double strike and attack skill activation times from both parties.


 * Critical Hit Rate:
 * Dagger Rangers: base (unknown)
 * Scythe Sins: base (unknown) +43%


 * Damage Buffs:
 * Order of Pain for +13 damage; procs on physical damage, excluding AoHM users.
 * Aura of Holy Might for +41.4-74.1% base damage; procs with scythes, excluding dagger users.
 * Great Dwarf Weapon for +15-20 damage.
 * Strength of Honor for +18 damage.
 * Ebon Battle Standard of Honor for +8-15 damage.
 * Customization for +20% base damage.
 * Inscription for +15% base damage.
 * Asuran Scan for +45-75% total damage.

I've reached an impasse: critical hit rate formula is unknown. &mdash; Raine Valen    16:15, 1 Dec 2010 (UTC)
 * . Dunno why you guys want to calculate this shit but owell. Have fun. 83.163.190.111 16:25, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No one knows what "WeaponCritChance" is. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  16:26, 1 Dec 2010 (UTC)


 * Can we try to make a reasonable estimate? Izzy said it was basically 1% per weapon attribute at equal level, maybe we can work with that and estimate a trend. If the trends aren't too extreme, it may not make a huge difference in the end. Also, I say we assume major crits rune. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 16:45, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * That is with a major crits rune. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  16:54, 1 Dec 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh ok. So the base is 12% then? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 17:14, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess we can assume that. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  17:15, 1 Dec 2010 (UTC)
 * To expand on that: "1% per rank" isn't the base crit chance formula. I'm not even sure if it's a reasonable estimate.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  18:40, 1 Dec 2010 (UTC)


 * Using a major crits rune is going to be hard as ranger.  Koda  [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_UT.jpeg‎|19px]]  Kumi  18:33, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * What? You mean there's a reason that there's no bonus crit chance next to "base" for the dagger calculations?!  I thought I'd just left it off because I forgot!  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  18:37, 1 Dec 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, I thought that was for Way of the Master. Also, I remember reading somewhere that your crit chance is also dependant on the level of your opponent. Considering most of UW's inhabitants is level 28 or higher, the final damage output (and assassins' energy gain) may be less than in the above table.  Koda  [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_UT.jpeg‎|19px]]  Kumi  18:52, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * That's for WotM + Critical Strikes.
 * I also recall crit chance being dependent on foe level (go out to Plains of Jarim and about every swing will be a crit), and so I'm also inclined to believe that the damage will fall off. Still, the 43% crit chance is guaranteed.  As long as the base crit rate is unknown, though, I can't make completely accurate calculations.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  18:56, 1 Dec 2010 (UTC)
 * Right, so we'll start off 12% scythe crit for the sin, 12% dagger crit for the ranger, and 13 daggers 14 crit for a theoretical sin primary dagger spam build, get info about level 20 foes, and see if there's a trend that favors any of the builds. If we can find any info about higher level foes, we can try to expand the model; if not, we estimate. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]]  20:46, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Holy Might Vs Orders
Aura of holy might prevents orders from working. --Boro 20:09, 4 December 2010 (UTC)


 * That's very true. However, there's another two characters that benefit from it (more if people take spears and stand in wards) and it's a good cover. Really, aohm only stops orders' damage from working. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 22:16, 4 December 2010 (UTC)