ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Ranger/Escape


 * Omg, this skill isn't OP. Try to get better and you will farm fame against Lameway teams... A. von Rin 12:02, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

So you wish to make it worse then the non elite Natural Stride ? The only reason R/D's use Escape as their elite is because Pious Assault allows them to get away with not using a dervish elite scythe attack for the deep wound. Escape is the least problematic skill on the entire R/D way bar. Please make some attempt to actually understand a build and why it works before suggesting counterproductive nerfs such as this one. Master Ketsu 06:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The difference is that Pious Assault probably isn't going away. Changes to Expertise (i.e. making it not affect spell touches like Rending Touch, or stop affecting secondary skills) are probably also not going to happen.  Make it worse than Natural Stride?  Escape's not exactly the kind of skill you'd normally want to burn your elite slot on in PvP anyway unless you're griefing.  Leave it in the only role it should have had in the first place: Running. Riotgear 16:27, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It isn't going away because Anet is stupid. They probably want to promote scythes as uber weapons and throw everything else in the garbage.71.174.23.135 16:09, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Reverse previous buff. shorter upkeep and still a fine skil to bring. Don't do stupid nerf because of FotM kthxbye. 213.121.242.200 19:10, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * How many times to I have to say this- Escape IS FINE AS IT IS. Nerf scythes. Let's see, escape is balanced if the ranger uses a bow. Scythes are overpowered when used by anything except a paragon.

As Riotgear mentioned, not much else on the R/D bar is likely to get changed. Escape is overpowered in the context of this build because it allows the ranger frontliners to attack without having to worry about overextending or playing poorly defensively because they have tons of elemental armour and can't be killed by physical damage. Escape rangers about as easy to play as any build out there, extremely resilient, and deal lots of damage. Obviously Escapeway is fairly easy to beat, but it's also a much better build than it should be given how simple it is to play. 64.59.144.86 01:03, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * 64.59 hits the nail on the head. It is overpowered when absolute trash players actually win against better, more-skilled teams. The only teams that beat shitway on a regular basis are r10/r11, and they're so good they're an ineffective measure of balance. When unranked shitway beats unranked balanced regularly, it's build wars, and the shitway is overpowered and needs a nerf. A revert of pious, escape and a huge nerf of rending touch wouldn't go astray tbh. - Auroñ 13:40, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Skill balances should always be done based on the highest level of skill play. If something is rolling bad teams but not rolling good ones, there is nothing wrong balance wise. Get better. Master Ketsu 18:19, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Smacks of elitism ;). Even though I'm in that higher bracket of skill play, and I dont have problems with this build, it still annoys me, because I'd prefer to play against teams that dont trash talk when they lose. I agree though, that the problem doesn't exist in Escape. The problem with the R/D Exists actually, not in Pious assault either. It exists in Rending Touch. Your monks cant keep you up because they A.) Have no energy from channeling being ripped, and B.) Cant make prot stick. Its very hard to keep a ghostly up when 6 of these things are pounding on it and ripping. If 6 of em couldn't rip, and just sat and pounded, well, I wouldn't care. 1 SoA > a bad melee. but, thats why we have Blurred Vision and Eruption and Ward of Melee --Angelic Loki 01:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Bad players will trash talk when they lose no matter what build they're running, FotM or otherwise. Just learn to ignore them like so many others have learned to do.  76.89.81.150 05:40, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

New Suggestion, 13:40, 6 May 2008
YES PLEASE. At least it would remove the immunity to everything (high armor + 75% block = fun) while the skill is still useful. -- Rayd    00:41, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

That's the main problem with the skill--that it makes people nearly invincible. I'd have a much easier time dealing with sway if I could kill their frontliners. Perhaps this could be a candidate for a PvP only version skill, seeing as it's only ever used to abuse the power of scythes or in silly RA running builds. 24.83.105.6 04:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. This would be a great skill to have a pvp only version of, since it could still be used for the old purpose in pve. (note: this is a rant) And the last suggestion on the page makes me extremely angry... all of a sudden, dervs, sins, rits, and paras don't matter as long as the game stays nice and stagnant and the GvGers never have to think of builds or ways to counter them.  Old classes do NOT receive priority over new ones in not being nerfed.  People who think like that are the main problem with this game- they think that the game should focus on just wars and monks, never taking into account that other classes exist that can fill those rolls, or at least were able to until Anet nerfed the hell out of them because these people couldn't handle the idea of changes to their oh so precious 2 war 3 monk 3 filler builds. Diversity in this game is dead, and unless something drastic is done, this game will die. (end rant)  --Kalas Silvern 06:41, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. Rangers could still use it to replace NStride, and stuff... Agree. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 20:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Leave it viable for normal rangers though, thats what I was trying to get across. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 21:36, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * My rant above was directed at the nerf expansions first person. Honestly, you have the right aim.  Wish the Devs kept that in mind with all classes and skills.  --Kalas Silvern 09:12, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I think this is overrall a good idea - not having it end on a hit prevents it from being nerfed into *total* oblivion, while still making it more sensible. Skills should be "useable, but not abuseable". :-). Anyway, maybe something like:
 * 5 15 . Elite Stance. For  seconds, you move 33% faster and have a 75% chance to block attacks while not attacking, but do 10% less damage with attacks.
 * This would mean that R/Ds wouldn't be able to abuse it so readily since they'd be vulnerable to linebackers and whatnot, but it would still be viable as a super kiting or running skill (with the duration/recharge buff helping with that), especially to traditional bow rangers (since they tend to rely on condition pressure and interrupts rather than pure damage, so the damage hit will have relatively little effect on them) so that they can run, attack (for example crippling a foe etc), run some more and so on. It would also be slightly more vulnerable to Wild Blow and similar skills, encouraging skillful use of them.


 * As a side note to those people who say skills don't have to match their names, well, they don't (but should) and certainly balance is more important than ascetics, but it's still something to think about because where possible skills should make sense - imagine if they thought a nice buff to Deep Freeze, say, would be to make it cause Blindness and give -20 armour vs. earth and lightning damage (but reduce the duration to 6 seconds) so as to encourage synergy with Arc Lightning and Lightning Touch. Now that might or might not make sense from a balance point of view, but it would be pretty stupid to have it in-game because it just doesn't seem right. You see my point?


 * Nerfing this skill will probably cut down a lot of uses of it, however you do it, but if it's done carefully it will still see some PvP play here and there (which is what you wany). IMO ideally it would be nerfed to the point where a SWay team might, say, take two frontliners with some other elite (or a totally different build) but keep one Escape Scythe for running et.c. That would be more like my idea of balanced (aka not as powerful as it is now, but not totally trash either). 82.3.255.222 18:38, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion
Escape: while in this stance all damage you deal is reduced by 50% 71.203.248.214 00:21, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't need to be nerfed. It is not OP! Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall here. The "overpowered" part of Sway on the R/D bar exists in 2 skills....Pious Assault and Rending Touch. They only used escape because they already had all the DW and Pressure they needed. YOU NEVER USE A DEFENSIVE ELITE IN AN OFFENSIVE BUILD UNLESS THE OFFENSIVE BUILD HAS ALL THE OFFENSE IT NEEDS IN ITS NON-ELITE SKILLS. This is the reason why Melandru's Resilience almost never sees use in PvP. Why run a defensive skill, even a really good one, over an offensive elite? Plz try and examine a build Intelligently before jumping to the incorrect conclusion that because the build is imbalanced the elite must be imbalanced because builds are GENERALLY based around the elite. Psychiatric Consultant 04:26, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * But it is offensive. The speed buff is kinda a big deal. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 21:32, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep. Not to mention that it is on the class with the best elemental armor in the game.  Also, this skill is broken as long as you can attack during it- near invulnerability to a damage type that is nearly maintainable = bad.  There's a reason most stances aren't nearly maintainable.  --Kalas Silvern 09:12, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * We're not jumping to the conclusion that because the build is OP the elite must be (or at least, I'm not, and I'm pretty sure a good deal of the others aren't either). In fact, the build is OP for a number of reasons, and yes, Pious Assault and Rending Touch are possibly the biggest reasons (firstly the fact that they don't have to remove enchants and so can give their bonuses for free and secondly because of the synergy which follows from Nature's Renewal and Tranquility) but if fact the ranger spirits have a big effect too and Escape is also part of it. Thus, it's not unreasonable that we ask for it to be tempered slightly - and if you actually read the suggestions, you will see that some of them at least are calling for it to be simply less abusable rather than nerfed to the very point of extinction.
 * Also, you said "YOU NEVER USE A DEFENSIVE ELITE IN AN OFFENSIVE BUILD UNLESS THE OFFENSIVE BUILD HAS ALL THE OFFENSE IT NEEDS IN ITS NON-ELITE SKILLS", which is simply not true. This may not be a fair example, but consider using WoH, a defensive elite, in a monk build which has absolutely no offense whatsoever... :-)
 * That's like the worst example, a defensive monk build isn't offensive at all :S I'm thinking classic healing hands wammo ;) Impaled 16:39, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I did say it wasn't a fair example, but the point still stands. Yes people prefer offensive elites and yes, they will take them if they don't have enough offence with the rest of their skills, but an arguement which says that they have a defensive elite so they're build must be the OP thing just doesn't hold water. People may prefer not to, but they will still take defensive elites over offensive ones almost regardless of the rest of their build if those defensive elites are sufficiently OP. If an elite makes you invincible, you need very little offense because you can whittle people down as much as you want. So please, Escape may not be OP and, whether or not it is, Rending and Pious are still probably more OP than it, but don't go backing up your argument with wild unsubstantiated claims and then go and tell other people to "examine a build Intelligently before jumping to the incorrect conclusion..." and all that.
 * They use it to counter kiters. 33% speed buff 75% of the time=win. Even without the blocking, I bet they would use it. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 03:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Solution- Make Rending Touch 0...2...2 enchants (link to mysticism) and 25/90 the scythe.

Doesn't need to be nerfed.
Instead of nerfing Escape, add "You cannot critical with melee attacks." This severely nerfs sway while keeping its original intended use. Criticals from bows and spears are nowhere near damaging enough to be overpowered, if your monk cannot outheal a bow/spear critical you need a new monk.
 * Um, that would be a nerf. So you kinda contradicted your title there. Anyway, that could work, although in actual fact there is fairly little difference in the % bonus weapons get from crits, damage-wise, it's just that scythes tend to do high damage anyway. That said, the actual increase from a scythe is quite high so disabling criticals on this skill should still have the desired effect.
 * This idea nerfs sway a lot because one main part of sway is critical damage against fleeing foes(Escape helps you catch up) and scythe criticals are overpowered. If you cannot critical with melee, you ALWAYS run the risk of getting lousy damage(minimum is 9). Escape would still be usable with a scythe but would require skill(blocking and run buff at the expense of damage) and it would have no effect on bows and spears(if your monk cannot outheal bow and spear criticals, kick your monk and get a hench.)

Small change, easy fix
If your "escaping" then how exactly are you still doing normal damage? Add a extra clause that states : "While in this stance, all damage is reduced by 50%" 69.247.22.37 19:44, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No. If they MUST nerf this (which they won't because it is easily countered and only a little bit better than natural stride) they would simply put "ends if you hit with a scythe attack". And sometimes escaping involves finishing off opponents first. >.> Maybe they could change the duration while wielding a bow to the old 5..15..18 to make it more appealing to regular rangers. Although, most people would still prefer things such as cripshot, BA, and BHA. Invincible  Rogue [[Image:User_Invincible Rogue_siggyiggywiggy.gif]] 21:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Firstly, having counters doesn't make a skill balanced (more balanced, maybe, but not totally balanced). Secondly, there are very few counters. I mean, how many people actually bring Wild Blow, Wild Throw et c.? Especially just to counter sway? People don't say, "Ah, we need at least two Wild Blows and an Unnatural Signet, maybe a Gaze of Fury too to counter sway, and ofc Verata's Aura or Verata's Gaze in case of MMs or at least Golemway, which we could come across, not to mention Complicate and Rust for those die-hard signet mesmers... and we need Necrotic Traversal for corpse control, plus Vocal Minority, obviously, not to mention "Can't Touch This!"! I mean, Rending Touch, touch rangers... gotta have "Can't Touch This!"." They don't because if you fill all your bars with counters you'll have no room left. What's more, Wild Blow opens one frontliner up for about 10 seconds, and you want your warrior to be pounding on their backline anyway. Not to mention the little fact that it removes all your adrenaline. So yeah, I broke your stance until it recharges in 10 secs, but I also cost myself at least as long building up adrenaline again because of course with you lot blocking that much you're now the only guy I can hit to get adrenaline, but by the time I get this blind (Dust Trap, Smoke Trap) and cripple (Barbed Trap) off me I might if I'm lucky get a couple of strikes before Escape is back up and I have to Wild Blow you again. And after all this, we're still not making much of a dent because your backline are under so little pressure they just heal you as soon as we hit you anyway... See my point?


 * Just thought about it again: "Escape ends if you hit with and attack" easy fix. 69.247.22.37 22:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Because no dervishes or assassins ever bring wild blow or golden fox+wild strike do they? Escape is fine, it only stops attacks and is easily countered. Also, Empathy says hi. If you can't handle blocking, why don't you QQ about guardian, or aegis, or bonneti's defense, or shield bash? Seriously stop whining about escape and just use its counters. In 8on8 you have 64 skill slots, one of them may as well be a counter to something common. Saying you can't bring wild blow just as a counter is like saying you can't bring Shatter Enchantment in case you run into enchantments. Wild Blow happens to work against other stances too. >.> Another question: do you think that Glyph of renewal+magnetic aura is overpowered?Invincible  Rogue [[Image:User_Invincible Rogue_siggyiggywiggy.gif]] 01:04, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Inappropriate references or analogies will not be tolerated. Thank you for your cooperation in the future.Guardian, ageis and bonneti's are fine and have been for a long time, shield bash has been in use for ages and all it really takes is not playing your pvx crap build like a game of simon to beat. If you don't realize the problem with escape then you play your ranger too much. 75% block, +33% speed boost, with the normal amount of expertise you can keep this up with only 4 seconds of downtime. You try chasing one down without a speed boost just to remove the stance. Effectively its just too spamable and while I enjoy using defile defenses on all yall build wiki players, its still nuts.69.247.22.37 05:43, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I heard that snares are good to have. I also heard that wild blow is even more spammable than escape. As for "vigorously rubbing my ranger" rubbing pixels is kinda bad for my monitor so no >.> Would you like me to list every counter to escape scythe rangers that I can think of just off the top of my head? Invincible  Rogue [[Image:User_Invincible Rogue_siggyiggywiggy.gif]] 17:37, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Wild blow is an 8 second recharge and you lose all adren, problem here is you have to catch them first, now if your regular ranger just stood still with escape up then yea, your counter works pretty well. Then again lose all adren isn't something people who run adren heavy builds on like. I know all the stance removal skills and other counters to blocking, primary problem is the stance is spammable and lasts more than half its recharge time, among other things. Most melee snares are not unblockable or conditional, but cripple is a crap snare thanks to mending touch and antidote sig. Slow hexes work wonders but after you do it once you normally have arrow spam coming your way.

It wouldn't matter if all dervishes and wars brought wild blow and all sins brought wild strike, if you cant catch them your screwed. Perhaps if it only gave projectile blocking it might be workable. escape is maintainable defense, while shield bash and many others are simple defense. Giving a character that isn't hurt from elemental damage basically immunity to physical damage is the definition of overpowered. Oh and they do great damage too, don't use at as a reason. Glyph + ma isn't overpowered because a simple ranged enchant removal fixes it, give me a simple stance removal skill (not from paragons) thats ranged and then escape is fine.

If everyone needed to bring wild blow then all melee users would turn into dervishes, and the meta would sink further into murky failure that turns more players away. With shadow stepping the way it is, monks teleporting away from the said plague is now less effective which further reinforces the notion that anet loves rangers so very huggy much and the rest of the classes can bugger off 69.247.22.37 19:33, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Shadow stepping fixed. Move along.  76.89.91.45 05:41, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Orly? I can still spilt with impunity as an assassin. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  14:23, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Lrn2counter then. 66.75.136.251 23:34, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Page cleanup
I agree with the cleanup thingy. "Issues" 5 and 7 aren't issues at all, and Issue 9 isn't a sensible one. I'm not sure what the protocol is with this though (wiki ppl seem to prefer archiving to deleting outright). --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:86.27.123.10 (talk).
 * I'm marking this suggestion for deletion because scythes are the problem. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:96.233.15.231 (talk).
 * You have quite a lot of people disagreeing with you. This is an active page, so I would argue against deletion. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  15:01, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * How are scythes not the problem? Escape sucks at worst, and is mediocre at best in conjunction with any other weapon. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:71.174.21.32 (talk).
 * Reread what I've said. Scythes are a problem.
 * Also, Reread the bit about "You have quite a lot of people disagreeing with you." Rule of the thumb, when there is a good deal of vocal and reasonable opposition, you don't delete. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  14:17, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * popular != good.
 * Reread and then post here. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:96.233.0.7 (talk).
 * Thing is, Escape is broken. It is anti-kite and damage prevention on a class that has the best mitigation of the one type of damage that goes through- Spells.  Part of the issue, beyond the issue of Expertise + Scythes is that rangers are too durable with this skill. --Kalas Silvern 03:37, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * End it on a non-bow attack, fixed. That isn't OP because bow attacks suck. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:72.64.9.242 (talk).
 * Saying "bow attacks suck" shows just how little you know of pvp. Have a nice day. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  15:01, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * No personal attacks please. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:96.233.8.53 (talk).
 * NPA, again. Don't restore personal attacks. Last time I checked you can remove them if they are personal attacks. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:71.174.16.18 (talk).
 * Do not remove comments. You cannot do that, and there isn't anything to be considered NPA. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  16:30, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * To the IP, that is not a breach of NPA, I'll admit its not very nice or polite but it doesn't constitute a personal attack. To nuklear, maybe it would be advisable matey if you don't engage in emotive arguments with people in this manner as it only serves to cause drama later. I'm not saying I disagree with you Nuklear, just saying that in this instance maybe just ignoring the person would have been more advantageous. -- Salome  [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 15:04, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, please read Guild Wars Wiki:No personal attacks before trying to enfonce it "Removing unquestionable personal attacks from your own user talk page is much less of a concern than removing comments from other pages in the Guild Wars Wiki. For text elsewhere, where such text is directed against you, removal requests should be directed to an admin to determine if the comments should remain, be archived, or be deleted. However, deletion should be rare, limited to situations where the comments pose an ongoing threat to a user such as revealing personal information in the attack.". This isn't anyone's user talk page, so you should post a removal request on Guild Wars Wiki:Admin noticeboard rather than removing the text yourself. -- Gordon Ecker 00:53, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * LOL, yeh what Gordon said! Gordon's a wee star, he always gives such a thorough answer. ;) -- Salome  [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 13:37, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

(reset indent) Getting back on topic, can we put delete tags or something for individual sections because while there is a serious issue here, the front page is clogged with a lot of junk.
 * Also, there are quite a few duplicates (like people think if they say something over and over other people may just give in and agree with them whether they're right or not). If someone's already suggested something, it shouldn't be suggested again and there shouldn't be anything wrong with removing the replicated sggestion. 82.3.255.222 21:40, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Nomination
For why guild wars has lost so many players and decends further into shitty gimmic builds 68.47.192.6 21:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, pathetic. cuz Anet staff that balancing skills dont care. They only nerfed 1 skill : palm strike this 2 months, they mean to make it a dead game to reduce the server cost.--140.128.67.248 06:32, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Andavigorn's Issue
Yes, just nerf a skill to the point it is almost as bad as Smiter's Boon (PvP). That skill you have there is worse than dodge, a non-elite skill. Plz compare to other skills before nerfing it (next we'll have ideas about flare doing 0...1...1 damage)Crimmastermind 03:05, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * 0 casting time, 0 recharge time, 0 aftercast delay, 1 energy. Time to macro the buttons on the side of my mouse to double click 600 times in one click. Gogogo 1200Fire damage.--66.192.104.13 16:03, 8 May 2009 (UTC)