Feedback talk:Game updates/20090917

Escape
Ty for nerfing Escape :] --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:71.131.8.88 (talk).


 * Absolutely --Raja


 * Thank you so much.......for nerfing Escape.--Wealedout 04:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

--1337cshacker says: Escape need not be nerfed! A nerf should make it LESS useful, not USELESS! If a nerf should be done to it at all it should have just been 50% block instead of 75. I will say again that rangers can still vamp bite/tough while z haste/dodge/light reflexes, this is more powerfull than any build with escape. Many rangers R/W would use escape, lightning reflex, shield stance, being able to 100% 75% block, until the shield stance nerf. SO WHY NERF ESCAPE?! I don't even faggin use it, all my pvp are bitter, interupt, or burning arrow/apply, or even better, barbed arrows/poison arrow. Anet has allot of work to do on a ranger to make them fair, but nerfing escape like people actually used it allot makes NO SENSE. You know what Anet, just nerf ALL the rangers skills so they do NOTHING when you do SOMETHING. That will make them fair for sure. Actually Anet, just take rangers out of PVP all together, that's what your slowly doing anyway. Makes SENSE, OMG SO MUCH SENSE. Every r/d, r/w, is shedding a tear atm. First mel shot nerf for no reason and now this. Unbelievable when all the other professions can do all of their spike/blocks.

Also, escape is an ELITE! Now it's really not an elite, but takes up your elite skill. Seriously, it being an awesome block and having no atk elite was balanced enough.

Who is running anet these days? Seriously, Apes? Maybe bunnies. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:98.145.195.91 (talk).


 * out of curiosity is there any wiki rule at all that can remove this block of insults? Talamare 08:00, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  08:35, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Shame... 81.157.162.123 16:24, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Can we make one? 81.157.162.123 16:25, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, I wish there was a rule in-game, in FA, on both sides that would kick a player for using this build, I saw it yesterday on a Luxon ranger, I've seen very bad Kurzick and Luxon Players, but this was awesome:

(Insert nonsense wall-o'-text here)--Wealedout 12:57, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

First pot-shot at 600ing?
Mantra of Resolve change already has some people I know a little cheesed off. As title, first shot at that setup? 000.00.00.00 00:09, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

//Agreed. The pop ups were bad enough, thanks faggot botters that caused that one, but mantra lasting only 5 seconds? It should last based on your attribute level, or more than 5, but less than 15 seconds. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:98.145.195.91 (talk).

Mantra of Resolve
That skill is used in alot of solo farm builds, the nerf should apply to PvP only --77.97.23.248 00:05, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * lol thats why it was nerfed. fail. -- adrin [[Image:User_Adrin_mysig.jpg|20px]] 00:10, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking more about Arborstone where Mantra of Resolve makes a rare re-spec to fit the needs of the mission and was a widely accessible means of preventing interruption when trying to use lengthy-cast resurrection skills. -- WarBlade 00:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree and it should also applie to Immolate. It's bad enough Rodgort's Invocation got a kick with increased recharge due long ago to PVP abuse, split the skills updates, this is too much I draw the line here for myself, this was the last straw I don't agree with Immolate recharge increase for PvE.PieEater 00:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)PieEater
 * If you are using Immolate in PvE, you are doing something wrong. King Neoterikos 00:18, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Hard Mode. Scatter. --62.158.84.94 00:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, Yes harrHarr, very funny, thanks you very much, the thing is I dont see the POINT, I smells of pure lazyness to split skills. I drew the line at Immolate because of it's sheer ridiculesnessythingymabob. Also theres a more fire builds the standard Searing Flames litttles helpersPieEater 00:31, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


 * If you are using elemental damage in the form of spells in Hard Mode, you are doing something wrong.--98.238.169.189 02:42, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

First of all the changes do not match the objectives listed under the developer notes. 1. According to the developer update, "It can still be used to protect key spell-casts" In most farming builds,Stoneflesh Aura is a key spell cast. Stoneflesh Aura has a recharge of 15 while Mantra of Resolve is 20 seconds. This makes any relatively short recharge spell completely interpretable.

I would suggest that a better change to the spell to accomplish the same objectives is to reduce the recharge rate to 5 seconds as well. This would accomplish the objective of an enemy being able to see the spell and also make casting it only apply to key spells due to the short length it operates, and the energy cost of the spell.

The energy cost is still 10, not 5 as listed in the developer notes. In the name of game balance, it should be reduced to 5 if this extremely short duration is kept. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:75.69.11.123 (talk).


 * Yeah, this should totally have been a PvP only change for resolve. In PvE, giant mobs that spam cry of frustration are everywhere, this was the best way to protect against them, and now it doesn't work at all for that. We already have a skill that will protect one key spell, now resolve is totally redundant and useless. None of the reasons given for the changes to this skill have anything to do with PvE. Why did they make this change global? ( Satanael |  talk ) 03:47, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * My guess is it's a start on eliminating 600/smite farming. Or if not eliminating, making it much more difficult. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  04:46, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I wonder why 600/smite is being nerfed when we have much more important issues to resolve. It seems impossible to ask for balance, when anet insists on either over-buffing or over-nerfing everything, essentially saying, "This is the meta!  If you don't like it, wait til next balance update when we over-nerf everything we just buffed and over-buff something we nerfed."  The ingenuity of 600/smite should be rewarded, not punished with skill balance updates for key skills on the bar.  --Seventh 05:35, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If they wanted to nerf 600s then they should have gone after Spirit Bond, which is pretty much unique to 600s or similar builds. Resolve is used in numerous builds throughout PvE, nerfing it goes way beyond just 600s. I mean, I gotta say, I never complain about skills getting nerfed, but this just seemed short sighted to me, and I still don't really get why they did it in the first place. ( Satanael |  talk ) 07:49, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This skill is really dead now. Why is the "energy loss or end" thing still in there when it only lasts 5 seconds? Why would I need a 5 second anti-interrupt for 10 energy anyway? I cannot even cast two longer spells in that duration and it will be hardly usable for non-eles because of the high energy cost for the extremely low duration.
 * I always thought Mantra of Resolve was really balanced due to the energy loss on interrupt.. poke | talk 11:28, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Was never balanced in PvP, since mesmers were always able to get their diversions and shames off on recharge. Rangers can't do anything do them unless they want to waste interrupts on something that would get off anyway. There was a part in the devs update where they said mantra of resolve was changed to cost 5 energy, but apparently it never did get implemented. Pika Fan 12:04, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * i still can't see why this skill was changed this harsh, really, "thoughtful usage of the skill"? don't we already have skills wich provide one shot interuption prevention for key skills? also whats powerblock and psychic distraction made for? eventough they're not as punishing as d-shot they're still viable options to stop MoR abuse, this update affects more the pve side of the game than the intended pvp side; VwK, terra, 55hp, 600/smite and many others all use MoR afaik while the main farming build is perma wich doesn't use MoR and therefore won't be affected by this update. i don't have a perma sin, but what reason do i have not to make one now?

Let's just discuss this for a moment. In PvP, yes, it's rather good, because being kept up 24/7 was making a lot of builds ridiculous in power. But a 5 second length makes it useless. The problem is in PvE; this didn't solve anything; most 600s will still be able to farm CoF & UW, which are heavy interrupt farming areas, without much hassle, with better timing of their spells and perhaps a few more deaths. Raptor Farmers, another heavily used farm will just go over to Assassin SF farmers. But as said before, this will really hurt things like hero AI and players in areas which constantly use Cry of Pain or has an area of effect interrupts. As we all know, the AI is far better at interrupting than humans can ever be, so a solid way to prevent more than one interrupt, when the AI can just recast a different one less than one second later and easily keep casting until after 5, makes it quite ridiculous. Basically, this skill was one of the few ways to get more than one or two spells off without several computer-perfect monsters neatly hitting each and every one one of your spells, or even your melee skills, given how they have no problem interrupting 1/2 second activation times. Furthermore, what is the average player going to now do to defeat Snowmen's Lair HM for their Dungeon Guide, or a vanquisher to finish the raptor cave in Riven Earth? [Edited to fix typing errors.] Moonstruck Muse 03:46, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Mantra of Resolve...sux in pve now...do "try" to fix it now.

The good, the bad and the ugly

 * The good
 * - thank you for finally fixing sway builds
 * - was way too spammable that's exactly how it should be now.
 * - was way overpowered and made Corrupt Enchantment look obsolete.


 * The bad
 * - Too many nerfs at once, either damage reduction or added recharge, this won't see play ever again
 * - PVP CHANGE ONLY PLEASE, don't break fire eles!!
 * - PVP CHANGE ONLY PLEASE!
 * - PVP CHANGE ONLY PLEASE!
 * - PVP CHANGE ONLY PLEASE!
 * - Simply unnecessary. With Escape out of the way this is unneeded.


 * And the UGLY!!
 * - SMITER'S BOONED! Simply a big fat NO!!!! this is stupid as hell and needs to be reverted asap. Slight nerfs for PvP maybe but WTF is wrong with it in PvE? Thanks for making my Ele INTERRUPT FODDER.
 * - Totally utterly and completely unneeded!! Healing was hard and one of the most tedious tasks in PvE already, then you nerf the "Air of superiority"-version with -5e to an upkeepable -3e version. The lairs split in half, 50/50 like/hate it. And now you fuck up the 50% that liked it by making it a WORSE "Air of superiority"-version ! what the HELL.

who agrees? --62.158.84.94 00:21, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I Agreee CAKE OR DEATH I SAY! But we got served Sloppy Joes with extras chuncks of smelly socks!PieEater 00:34, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I mean they could slightly change to for example "For 5...15..16 seconds, you cannot be interrupted.", but 5 seconds is way too short, cannot be lengthened by speccing into Inspiration and the energy loss must GO AWAY in that short-lived form! --62.158.84.149 00:42, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't CARE about them breaking Fire Eles, I think they SHOULD get broke. Just don't break my fuggin Fire Djinni summon in the process, I spent way too long fighting retarded little Chimpokomons in totally unfair fights that made we wanna throw my monitor out the window worse than when I hadda fight M Bison.... -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 01:09, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No. I have 9 PvE chars (everything but paragon) and fire eles were absolutely fine in PvE, they don't need bullshit nerfs to Immolate. And neither does the Djinn. --62.158.84.149 01:15, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Meh... for the time invested, and then delayed for such an update. I mean, I know Arenanet is dragging things out to give themselves more and more time every few months but this is starting to get stupid.  There are so many long standing bugs and issues and this is what they release?  o.O  000.00.00.00  01:46, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Talk about no Vampiric Spirit split.Really,no split?Other thing,now Corrupt Enchantment seems elite.--Wealedout 02:06, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * While I agree with most of the "good, bad, and ugly" of the OP, I don't know how Ether Prism (a skill that nets energy AND makes you immune to spikes) will ever be bad. The energy return alone makes it comparable to the old Mantra of Recall, which people used very often. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 02:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem is that Mantra of Recall was better with less skills to choose from and that Ether Prism is a skill of a profession with almost always double the cost on skills. Yes, it shines as energy management for secondary ritualists/monks (well, it actually shined) but it already was in its first new state extremely weak for primary-elementalist use. Ɲ oɕʈɋɽɕɧ  02:32, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Ummmmm, I have personallyy never been more pissed off than I am at THIS second right now at ANEt. I've been palying this game for years, and ever since Shadow Form came out, I've seent he nubbliest of sins try to use it, and I think that ANet should handle SF before messing with Mantra of Resolve. Blanket coveragae my behind, I hate this update specifinally because they narrowed it down to 5 seconds, WTF!???!??!?!? I can see this in PvP, honestly, I think that's fair to be able to see that. "Oh, there goes a monk using Mantra of Resolve. Hmm, I wonder how I'm going to stop his RoJ with that on" Yes, that may be, but WTF ABOUT THE PVE VERSION???? Whe n I need super quick bones, I just hop on my Misty Raptor Farm build for HM and kill a few nestlings. WEll, cant do that now can I ANET???? HUH??? WERE U GUYS FREAKIN THINKING OF THAT WHEN U GUYS DESTROYED MANTRA OF RESOLVE???? I bet that ur barely going to se that skill now, it's about as crappy as Distortion now. Jeez, why the hell are they mainly targeting castres lately?? get to work on making SF less maintanable jeez, I'm REALLY tired of walking into toA especially and litrally seeing nothing but A/E's all over the freakin place, like, honestly, do u guys really look at ALL the aspects of the game when u make nerfs?? or is it just the things ppl do most????? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:X Storm Lord X (talk).
 * Oh, so you want them to nerf SF to eliminate easy farming by sins, but you don't want them to touch your precious Raptor farm? Give me a break. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  07:10, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Do not compare raptor farm to perma sins. Perma sins raptor farm is unaffected, yet they can solo/run 90% of dungeons (for money, items, rep), they can speedbook EotN, they are best runners in proph and they can speedclear stuff. even 600/smite can't do it as fast as permas do and 600/smite is very risky compared to perma. oh, and nerfing mantra of resolve won't make ecto cost more don't worry Athariel 07:17, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * ...Why not? Permas aren't the fastest Raptor farmers, not at all. Yes, they can run dungeons but they are much harder to run as a sin than as a monk (Kathy for example). Yes, they can speedbook but no they aren't the best (fastest) runners, pretty slow mind you. Hell no, 600/Smite can do stuff much easier than a perma could. --Super  Igor User- Super Igor logo.png 18:46, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm just saying people need to look at the irony of what they are saying. EVERYONE seems to be crying that permas need to be nerfed except those players that enjoy playing perma, but heaven forbid ArenaNet touch their personal favorite farming build! I mean, there are more people crying that the change to Mantra of Resolve has destroyed 600/smite farming/dungeon running than anything else in this update, yet those same people will cheer at the top of their lungs when SF gets nerfed, and btw... I don't see many permas running dungeons for money, most often they get to come along for free with the 600/smite team that is actually going to kill the boss at the end (and collect all the running fees from the rest of the party). I'm not saying I don't believe SF needs to be addressed, speed clears are just wrong in about every way possible (I felt the same way about Ursan), but for heaven sake, easy farming is easy farming, and it ALL needs to be eliminated. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  07:26, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Wyn, only one thing, A/X teams took over those duo monk teams in many dungeons and continue to do for others. It's the Essence of Celerity that allows them to do what above poster said - run the dungeons even faster than the already fast 600/smite-teams. I don't want either to exist in its current state. However, keep in mind that the Mantra had utility use outside of this. Ɲ oɕʈɋɽɕɧ  07:41, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * i wonder why do we still have mobs with a 4y old skill bar in areas that can be accesed through all campaigns, sure SF is a great skill, because it makes things easy, ppl tend to want it nerfed, but think carefully: is SF really the main problem? also, why don't we have viable skills that remove SF, or at least bypass it? ANet, you made a wonderfull skill, but how about a way to counter it? meheezen 13:55, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If you actually take your time to look into the nerfs, they are justified


 * Escape, AoS, Rip - I doubt anyone will argue that these needed nerf, so Ill skip ahead to the next ones
 * Ether Prism - 100% dr was pretty over powered, so reducing that is a good thing but the recharge increase because of the energy gain isnt justified, considering that the heavy amount of energy usage an elementalist goes thru this wont really be viable anymore
 * Immolate - Believe it or not but this skill is fairly op, its unconditional, non projectile 117 for 10 energy on 3 recharge... its not really a skill that should have been high on the list of nerfs, but it was strong... the skill at the core they need to nerf is mind blast, and this and distortion change illustrates they are trying to cut around it (which is bad thing) but this skill was too strong none the less
 * Patient Spirit is clearly the strongest heal in healing prayers at the moment, and it needed to be pulled down a little... no matter how much you dislike that it got nerf
 * Death Blossom is a +90 unconditional aoe attack with 2 second recharge, the only thing that comes near it is the conditional Blades of Steel at +120 with 8 second recharge, and Nine Tails Strike at +80 unblockable with 8 recharge, this skill is very strong still, but its not statistically op as before

I do think these 'controversial' changes were needed eventually, but not before they nerfed several other things first Talamare 07:51, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * As noctarch mentioned and I stated in my above post, mantra goes beyond 600s. I'm fine with nerfing 600s (and yes, I play 600s myself sometimes), but there are better ways of doing it that don't hit half a dozen other perfectly great builds that are used in blanced teams and don't allow for speed clears. ( Satanael |  talk ) 07:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The hit to Mantra was just over-the-top for PvE, I'd rather they increase the duration to even half of the recharge, or just make it scalable to that effect. If this was also aimed at 600ing they could have, at least, gone after Holy Wrath.  As said above me, the Mantra goes beyond 600ing.  Well, I'll probably go back to the glyph again, until they hit that too.  000.00.00.00  08:03, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I dont agree at all, that rant of yours is full of fail. --Super  Igor User- Super Igor logo.png 18:35, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

@X Storm Lord X: ShadowForm isn't the problem.
 * Please write another paragraph for I, in one word, very selfishly, cowardly and lazily will answer in one sentence that at least includes the word fail.--67.224.221.53 00:00, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Where Are the buffs at?
all they are doing is whack the Nerf stick at any meta build over and over again witnessed many times throughout guild wars update history is the nerf stick but wheres the buff bat at? how bout we buff some under used skills...I am not saying go crazy but some minor buffs would at least promote new game play...this newest update nerf'd sway which is fine it was op, but didn't promote any new game-play at all it just took away...now some people may argue with sway out of the way other skills have room for use but that's BS because they weren't in use before sway because there was still better more prominent skills so all that will happen is people are going to revert to what they used to run before and last time i checked Anet wanted the game to "progress" not regress which is all these updates are doing maybe instead of nerf'ing the Fotm Anet should trying buffing other skills so they can stand toe to toe you know promote diversity not process of elimination
 * Well, the update before this one was cool. I was hoping for some changes and buffs, but all they gave us (skill-wise) was nerfs to skills that have nothing to do with the problematic ones and overnerfing/pointless nerfing (as well as giving some love to power creep). Granted that the timeframe was pressed, I'm sure that players wouldn't mind waiting an extra week if they knew this is what we would get instead. A horribly boring update, but at least you finally put Tolkano in all PvP outposts and nerfed some of the few skills that really needed it. -~=Sparky  User Sparky, the Tainted charr sig.PNG  (talk)  04:25, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * that is what this fucking game needs right now, shitloads of nerfing to revert the power creep, not add to it. you HAVE alternatives, just try stuff around.. no, you dont have to run the latest gimmick to be efficient. you shouldnt have to. also, read: "We are aiming for a more ambitious skill balance pass in an upcoming build." - Wuhy  [[Image:User_Wuhy_sig.jpg|18px]] 04:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The game doesn't need any more buffs. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 05:25, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Please ANet! More nerfs! With every update you keep destroying builds! As builds keep diminishing, my chances to win with 4 year old builds increases. "No new build with buffs or buffing crap unused skills to make new builds"- this anon says.--64.237.128.9 10:15, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Urbaed. Only way to balance this game is to get rid of the immense powercreep. --Super  Igor User- Super Igor logo.png 18:52, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This is what we want! Less powercreep! please dont buff any skill and ignore half of the useless crap skills in the game! If you dont it might affect my HA!--67.224.221.53 23:55, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

TYVM About Blood spike
Thanks nerfing those gayness lamers, although it's been a year. >_>--140.128.67.249 04:49, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Although it is not very much of a thanks from me...with the buff for the PvE version of Unholy Feast. Now Lornar's Pass is just going to be that much more ridiculous to Vanquish (I'm looking at you, disgustingly large, un-pullable group of Stone Summit Dwarves). The Summit Howlers there already spammed Blood Spike/Toucher skills to begin with, and were quite adept at spiking down the entire party using Unholy Feast on recharge, now it's going to be even worse. Nothing like getting whacked for 400+ lifesteal damage at once. -the jynxed-  08:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Want to tell them how you really feel
By going on the BBB, or Better Business Bureus website I located the ever elusive ArenaNet Phone Number and fax Number.

Want to show them how much you "agree" with their carefully thought out and "well" executed update over the phone? Call (425) 462-9444. Want to send them a lovely fax showing them how much you appreciate the Selfles Spirit Nerf/Execuation? Send your fax to (425) 671-0589. Info can be found at http://www.bbb.org/western-washington/business-reviews/computer-software-publishers-and-developers/arenanet-in-bellevue-wa-22017235. Or Just go to www.BBB.org and look up Arenanet(I don't know how to sign so i hope some of you find this helpful)

Oh and Arenanet is not a BBB accreditted Bussiness BTW. They rate an -A though so thats not bad. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:74.220.50.18 (talk).

Death Blossom
WAS balanced. It had absolutely nothing wrong with it. So why the fuck, if you say, do you almost kill Death Blossom? The whole point of this skill is its spammability. Great!!!!! Fox Fangs, Jagged Strike are OP, so let's nerf another skill on the bar! OH YEAH, let's nerf a balanced skill on the bar!!! Now that's good balance! ...Congratulations on discouraging the Lead-Offhand-Dual chain, and removing Moebius Strike from the equation. Titani  Ertan  07:00, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * its kinda of hard to say that jagged strike and fox fangs are op... db isnt op either... tho when you combined the 3 it became op, tho it was only op if you combined the 3 on a ranger, so what exactly is really op... tbh i dont think they know exactly what needed to be nerfed, they just picked the one that felt strongest of them all, and when you look at the stats, DB is a +45 dual attack with 2recharge and aoe... the only dual attack stronger then DB is blades of steel, and that one is conditional with 8 second recharge, so it means that DB actually was op, even if it never caused problems in the past, doesnt mean it wasnt technically op Talamare 07:31, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

It's OP because it comes in the assassin profession. Assassins are broken in general. If WE Warriors were broken then an assassin with a 100+ dmg attack on a 2 second recharge is going to also be broken/OP. Assassins should just stick to their spike build that's on a 20 second recharge, not 2. Another problem comes in the form of Expertise, which is one of the most broken primary attributes and needs to get the axe.--98.238.169.189 09:34, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Selfless Spirit nerf
Here's something to consider before you bitch about changing selfless spirit. It was fixed, it did not need an infinite uptime. Most PvE only skills are broken in general, so if you need a broken skill, you are a bad player. -- adrin  07:41, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If you need this skill, you are a shitty monk.
 * If you complain about it being nerfed, you are advertising that you are a shitty monk
 * That holds true for shadow form, cry of pain, ursan, and pretty much every other pve skill used as a crutch. People whine about them even though it's obvious those people are terrible. Them being terrible doesn't deter them from whining that the skills they need to win pve are being nerfed. - Auron 07:44, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * not to mention there are still ways to make this perma, just go /e and get glyph of renewal, or find a +33% recharge and it makes its uptime 50%, if you really cant handle being 15 seconds without cheaper energy, bring divine spirit as well to cover that time frame, also you can bring channeling and have borderline infinite energy... etc etc, its not the end of the world, and if i remember correctly selfless spirit used to be completely useless with 60 recharge, 10 duration and you couldnt use self prots Talamare 07:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Skills which spend half their time on recharge are boring to use. Avatars were cool but you spent too much time not in the form, which really slows down PvE. I don't care if they reduced the effectiveness of the skill, I hate spending 20 seconds waiting for a skill to be usable. That's too long. 110.32.1.105 09:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Eternal Aura. Also, /agree with adrin. --Super <font color="Blue"> Igor User- Super Igor logo.png 09:31, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Have any of you actually tried Monking in PvE recently or are your IQ's simply dropping from some disease I don't know about? With the stupidly insane amounts of Enchantment Stripping/Removal and E-Denial especially in HM, when you can barely keep Selfless on you for less then 5 seconds before it's stripped.  And now we have a situation where if it is stripped (very likely) you'll have to wait 45 seconds for it to be stripped again, and in the meantime along comes E-Surge.  Selfless was originally buffed because it was 'underpowered for a PvE skill', only to see it subsquently nerfed to a more unusable version than the one that was buffed in the first place.  I don't give a flying rats arse that you wiki types may think people are baed for carrying this, truth of the matter is that monks in general have VERY POOR poor or NO energy management (without relying on GoLE), and being required to keep your party alive means you do need some, it's not like you can ask the mobs to stop hitting on you, because you only have 3 energy left. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Anon-e-mouse (talk).
 * Instead of applying the skill through your PvP filter think about the average PvE pug doing HM. Now tell me you don't need energy management. If a monk needs to spam his skills to keep his team alive sometimes he's not the bad one in the party. PuGs make monking painful, this skill alleviated some of the pain. Eternal Aura. That was my point, thank you for jumping on board. It makes avatars maintainable always, this skill is not. I don't care if the skill has down time, but 20 seconds is far too long. A monks energy bar is proportionate to monk skill AND party skill. If either is of a lower standard the bar will empty. 110.32.1.105 10:01, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Or stop being bad and ragequit the bad party. :/ Terrible people whining about how terrible they are. Pika Fan 12:15, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * ^ --<font color="Red">Super <font color="Blue"> Igor User- Super Igor logo.png 21:17, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Talamare 10:09, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What Igor said - "I like the bit where he says that it's even worse that it was. []"

lol bads - Auron 10:04, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I used the old version of Selfless Spirit quite often in PvE, it was useful in battle situations where a lot happened at a time, so you could just spam out heal spells to get your team up. The new version was not bad, but not as useful as the old one, of course you were able to basically permanently reduce your skill cost of all your skills by 3, but if you had energy problems (why ever), you couldn't spam as much as before. Now with the recharge up to 45 it is quite useless. You can no longer use it as a emergency skill when you have no energy.. Basically this skill is now in a nerfed form of the first version, with reduced energy reduction (and with that condition removed, I never used anyway..) poke | talk 11:25, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Before selfless spirit was buffed, monks held up in HM fine. I don't see the problem with anet removing something that didn't belong to monks in the first place. Pika Fan 12:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


 * As a monk you can have lots of viable skills that help lessening the energy problems. Also for those who didn't realize: there are lots of useful skills in the protection prayers line helping to deal with the damage by pre-protting . There is also a lot of melee/caster hate you can tell your party members to bring. Bsurge works wonders against Enchanted Weaponry. Reckless haste has no drawbacks in HM. Armor of Sanctity and enfeebling blood are also useful to deal with the threat posed by HM monsters. And as always. People could keep HM pugs alive before the buff, so with the nerf they will still be able to do it again. --Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Sig.jpg|10px‎]] 15:21, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think you can say that Selfless Spirit didn't belong to monks in the first place...It's a PvE faction skill. Unless you're arguing that the PvE abilities of every class doesn't belong to them, you have no case here. The problem that most people, myself included, have is that they did not scale back the power level of the skill's buff, but they actually made it worse than it was before they "buffed" it. Sure, it has 15 less recharge now, but it also grants 2 less energy reducation. Before the buff/nerf, you could use it to spam, for free, all the 5 energy healing skills you wanted on your allies, which allowed you both to cast spells and regain your energy. This new nerf makes the skill primarily useful for an emergency situation where you're running low on energy, which the old skill was better at in almost every way (at least it doesn't end when you cast on yourself, I suppose). It just seems as though, although they set out to make the skill less "underpowered in PvE," Anet actually went the other way.140.209.227.18 16:34, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I have played pretty much high-end areas and I can say that bringing necromancer hero with blood ritual pretty much solves any problem. --Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Sig.jpg|10px‎]] 18:21, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * my point is, if you can't monk in pve, you're a bad monk -- adrin [[Image:User_Adrin_mysig.jpg|20px]] 21:39, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This is probably the funniest thing I have ever read on this wiki. It's time to go to Yasmin's school of "learn2play". First...for all of you who think there isn't enough emanagement...I think you should delete your monk now and stop wasting everyone's time. Now, for the guide...Learn to utilize your energy as best you can. "But Yasmin...how do I do this without gimmicky pve shitter skills?" Simple, don't flood your bar with skills that are 10 energy. Don't spam Heal Party when you don't need too. Don't over heal. Don't red bar. Learn to weapon swap. Play the majority of the game on your low sets so you learn to have to think you have no more than your lowest number of energy. Learn to use power drain, glyph, leech signet and other such skills. Read your skill bar once in a while. Or accept the fact that monking might not be right for you. This game, at least to be good at it, requires some level of thinking and coordination, or at least it should. Pika and I both monk in GvG and HA...please, QQ more to us about energy management in pve. It time to remove the training wheels off the bike and ride out on your own. Believe me, it's very do-able.-- *Yasmin Parvaneh* [[Image:User_yasmin_parvaneh_sig.png]] 23:49, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There are a plethora of ways to keep an entire team alive without making your skills free. For one, you have to stop spamming your skills on recharge. Your energy bar has a fixed number on it. It does not say ∞/∞ and it does not say bring Selfless Spirit. You're supposed to manage your energy on your own. This means only use your skills where they're needed.
 * I suggest you skim through Protection Prayers. A well placed prot (I personally like Spirit Bond) can stop more damage than the average heal tenfold. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 04:41, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, and Ursan was OP so it didn't matter. Now that everything that was useful in PvE (Ursan, Cry, and now 600/smite) are being nerfed, it's not a fair comparison.  Stand in GoA and tell me how many people you see.  Remember when people played it?  I do.  I'm not saying you needed something like Ursan to beat it (I've done a few post-ursan runs, but after cry got nerfed there's just no one there doing anything but gem farming), but even with a knowledgeable party you can't clear it in a reasonable amount of time now.  Yes, you can do one area at a time, but we all know that's not economical.  Yes, you can do it with heros, which I consider to be one of the few things in this game less fun than hero battles.
 * The worst part of this nerf isn't even the fact that it was completely unnecessary, it's that all the bars with OTHER elites and OTHER attributes you COULD have run have all been made impractical, in one nerf of one skill. I literally deleted three saved builds after this nerf, because none were viable any more.  No, if monks run anything other than the same bar they've been running forever, it's short lived.  Boon Prot?  NERFED!  Mimicry LoD?  NERFED!  RoJ?  NERFED!  You run anything outside of the extremely narrow meta and it's absolute crap.  You get kicked from parties, and for good reason.
 * Lastly, I find it extremely odd that most people QQing about the QQers don't even monk, so I wonder why they care. --Seventh 04:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I find it extremely odd that you assume people don't monk just because you didn't see them monk. Common sense and logic are so rare nowadays. Pika Fan 05:17, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * When people tell me they think this skill is still viable, I know they either don't monk or are bad. Common sense and logic are indeed rare. --Seventh 05:34, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Nobody has told you this skill is viable. Common sense and logic are indeed rare, you should trade your false assumptions for them. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 05:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "4. It is still worth having on the bar for infinite energy with 1/3-1/2 upkeep if you are lolterrible. --Super Igor" You're right, nobody did tell me this was still viable. What was that about false assumptions? --Seventh 05:41, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * He didn't literally say it was viable...OH SNAPWarherox 05:53, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * How do you know "nobody" wasn't a reference to Igor? Kidding aside, if you counted the opinions of every random person who had an opinion, you'll hear a little bit of everything. I should have said nobody seriously thinks this skill is viable, but that still doesn't change the fact that you don't ever need it anyway. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 05:54, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No, you don't need it, but why nerf something that makes the game more fun to play? This actually let you use more than one build, and it seems that was a problem for anet. --Seventh 05:58, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I am sorry to burst your bubble, but for sane and logic-inclined humans, mindless pressing of buttons =/= fun. I am also sorry to say, you do not belong in that group. Pika Fan 12:27, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This just in, Anet hates freedom, more @ 10.Warherox 06:13, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * so smashing your face on the keyboard since all your skills cost nothing is fun? ppl use pve skills cuz they're either lazy or bad. -- adrin [[Image:User_Adrin_mysig.jpg|20px]] 06:33, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * no people use pve skills because pugs are bad and because its pve.--[[Image:User_Zesbeer_sig.png|link=User talk:Zesbeer‎]] Zesbeer 07:49, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * And, if you take a crappy bar, people won't want you in their party, because all it's going to do is make things take that much longer. Two to three hours spent on the same map is not something I enjoy. --Seventh 21:19, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * With respect, perhaps the use of this skill was not fun for you, but it certainly was entertaining for a great number of players. I do not presume to judge the skill level of people who used this skill, and I believe that such a topic is irrelevant and inflamatory. If you find the use of this skill to be boring or ineffective, then why don't you simply not use it? Its a PvE skill; It's not like you're going to come up against it. If others enjoy it, and it is not harming you, then I see no logical reason why you should respond so negatively. I would challenge you, and any of the other posters who are Pro-Nerf, to show definatively how you have been hurt or disadvanted by the (old) buff to Selfless Spirit.140.209.227.18 03:21, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * LoL -- adrin [[Image:User_Adrin_mysig.jpg|20px]] 05:42, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Keep it up
Best update in a long time. Please continue doing what you did to make this update. Also; Linsey's effort to get up to speed (pvp-wise) is really showing. Well done. Artisan Archer 07:55, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


 * /agree 81.157.162.123 16:22, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree, too. I think, with the notable exception of making the Resolve nerf global rather than just pvp, this update brought some much needed changes. ( Satanael |  talk ) 16:25, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * ...It was obviously intended for PvE too, the problem is they didn't focus on the right class for PvE (protip for next time: it's not Mesmer skills OR dervish, OR Immolation, OR Motivation that are the worst offenders in PvE). -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 03:46, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * /agree --<font color="Red">Super <font color="Blue"> Igor User- Super Igor logo.png 18:51, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * /agree. Lets hope they keep doing this every two months. We need only nerfs.--67.224.221.53 23:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


 * /agree with the exception of Ether Prism, perfect for pvp, but 75% of 400 is still 100dmg. IMO last version was right for pve.
 * I wouldn't say it's the best update for a long time, but it's certainly a good one. Keep it up, Linsey! -- Hong 05:23, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Perma buff
Thanks for nerfing mantra of resolve my perma is 1337shit now. GJ failure --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:85.131.56.200 (talk).
 * wut. --<font color="Red">Super <font color="Blue"> Igor User- Super Igor logo.png 09:38, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You must be a bad player if you need Mantra of Resolve for a perma... --Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Sig.jpg|10px‎]] 12:31, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * He doesn't, he's saying because they nerfed Mantra of Resolve, Perma is an even better farming build (MoR is used for several farming builds, Raptors most notably). DarkNecrid 12:49, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thx for the translation Dark :D M3G [[Image:User_M3G_Pumpkin.png‎| 19px | ]] 12:52, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * yup. I agree now. But the change was needed. --Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Sig.jpg|10px‎]] 15:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * MoR was used by 600 monks running people through dungeons which was god-mode compared to doing the same with a perma. --<font color="Red">Super <font color="Blue"> Igor User- Super Igor logo.png 15:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yea, because when you do dungeons on a 600, you need heroes and when you SF you can do it solo......wait, what? <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">15:34, 18 September 2009  (UTC)
 * Mantra is used for way more than just the 600. ( Satanael |  talk ) 16:14, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's only a matter of time before they nerf Shadow Form again in some way, either by adding enchant strippers that bypass SF to dungeons, or by nerfing the skill itself; they specifically mentioned SF in their developer notes a while back as one of the things they were looking at140.209.227.18 16:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes but it's considerably harder for most dungeons. :> --<font color="Red">Super <font color="Blue"> Igor User- Super Igor logo.png 09:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

You are on the way to destruction make your time. Shut up all 600 Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә &amp; ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:10, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Mantra of Resolve (2)
This is absolutely a ridiculous Nerf for PVE. What defense against interrupts do you plan on leaving us casters with? Some(not all) of an ele's most powerful skills have casting times which are significantly longer than this lasts. Over half my regular playing builds as an ele are now broken due to this!!! Wynterarwynrose 19:22, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There are ele skills that take longer than five seconds to cast now? -Prose 19:48, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Arcane Conundrum?
 * Cancel casting and positioning...oh wait, we're talking about pve...no one cares about playing smart in pve-- *Yasmin Parvaneh* [[Image:User_yasmin_parvaneh_sig.png]] 21:17, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * ^ That. Also, you act as if you encounter arcane cunundrum/interrupts in every frigin area you go to, lol. --<font color="Red">Super <font color="Blue"> Igor User- Super Igor logo.png 21:24, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Joking aside, the skill will still protect you if you are casting Meteor Shower...you just can't maintain it 24/7, but it still works for what you are intending. Mantra of Concentration and Glyph of Concentration work fine too. They aren't imba...but they work just fine.-- *Yasmin Parvaneh* [[Image:User_yasmin_parvaneh_sig.png]] 21:26, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * My dervish actually sets traps in the middle of combat now without even being interrupted (thank you buffed Earth prayers!). If actual "casters" are having that much trouble avoiding interrupts then they must be really LoLBad b/c I know I'm fairly bad. But speaking of LoLBad, nerfing Mesmer stances to try and nerf big Pharma Monks was tried several times before and it never worked.  If they're trying to stop people from exploiting Retrib, Wrath, ProtSpirit & SpiritBond... then maybe they should actually try FIXING Retrib, Wrath, ProtSpirit & SpiritBond for once instead of just kicking the can down the road.  And maybe "the experts" on this fucking Wiki who abuse those things the most could man up for a change and really blow the whistle on it all or atleast drop a few hints on how to nerf it so that atleast the stupidest subset of farmers can't do it anymore.... -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 03:55, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Too big of a nerf. This went from a powerful anti interrupt skill to the worst.  Apparently, Escape was the only one they thought about in the update. --Ccreynolds 18:01, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 600/smite was not the target of this nerf. Mesmers that could not be interrupted in PvP (SigHum, VoR, etc) were the targets and 600/smite was collateral that I suspect they are more than happy to see hurt a tad. <font color="#A55858">Misery  09:26, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * People can agree the stance change was more for PvP than PvE. Sometimes I wonder why they bothered with the split.  <font color="Black">000.00.00.00  09:34, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I was specifically replying to the comments that they should have hit retribution/wrath or prot spirit/spirit bond. They clearly don't care about 600/smite yet. <font color="#A55858">Misery  20:33, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I wasn't replying to you, more of a general blabbing on my part.  <font color="Black">000.00.00.00  20:50, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry but I fail to see how a nerf to MOR is required yet SF remains as is. This game has now become a perma only game. If you wanna do anything, become a perma. The only other single man build was the 600/Smite team, please not TEAM, which ruled in COF and also FOW. No speed clears here or runs where only you get the drops, Perma's please note, but a slow methodical progress where everyone gets drops and chests along the way. COF on a 600, 2k. Any dungeon with a perma, 7-30k. So what do Anet decide to do? Nerf fkn MOR. Granted a 600 team can run without MOR but it makes life more difficult when running COF. In a game where the perma is king, Anet have just made sure that nobody can challange him. If you want to hit a farming/running build then go after SF and make it more difficult. The problem there is that you cant as it would take the perma out of the game and too many players run it. This is the most BS update I have ever seen. I can understand nerfing it for PvP so that monks can just sit under it and spam RoJ but no need in PvE. I strongly suggest that there is an update moving it back towards where it was. Maybe not the full 40+ seconds but somewhere that it is possible to keep up if you recast it rather than the current where there is a full 15 seconds. And in future if you want to hit the runners then go after the permas and leave the 600 alone. 600/smiting is not an easy thing, you constantly work and move slowly through an area. A perma just SF and runs. I know there is a bit more to it than that but if I can learn to raptor farm as a perma just by looking at a 1 min video on youtube then it cant be that hard. Forgot to add, how does a reduction from 42 seconds to 5 seconds count as a minor adjustment???? Please explain
 * I haven't seen a perma in HA or GvG in a long time. I've also never ever taken MoR on a CoF run. <font color="#A55858">Misery  18:25, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe the posting was referring to PvE, not PvP. Plus, you have never taken me on a non-MoR CoF run, I feel so neglected for that fact. /runs off crying.  <font color="Black">000.00.00.00  02:34, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That was exactly my point, he is phrasing his response as if they nerfed it because of 600/smite and as such are hypocrites for not also nerfing Shadow Form. They did not and therefore are not. Also, I run CoF on a 600 necromancer because my title char is necromancer. It's more hilarious than effective. <font color="#A55858">Misery  07:56, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Hey, you guys remember those skills you nerfed so they wouldn't cause a degenerative meta?
Yea....um, you missed the point. Please continue to not update your skills and be bad at balancing. It makes HA/GvG a HELL of a lot easier. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate  <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">19:39, 14 November 2009  (UTC)
 * Oh, and apparently I'm a prophet or I just understand that leaving ridiculously broken shit in the game causes exploitation. You know...one or the other. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">19:43, 14 November 2009  (UTC)