Feedback:User/Dark Morphon/Primal Rage/Archive1

Let the flaming begin! Dark Morphon 15:53, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * lol. Crits are more of a sin thing. But I do like this idea. GG. I personally don't use it, but others might. And me, I play an assassin because it fits me. When I see a warrior use this, i aim for them and spike them hard DarkMugen 20:07, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It's used pretty heavily in the current meta. Dark Morphon 16:05, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I am curious, is it an increase to armor penetration or a new fixed value for each attack? Pika Fan 16:15, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I was intending it to be additional armor penetration but coming to think of it, that's probably overpowered. At the very least, the IMS has to go. What it is replaced by is of later concern. Dark Morphon 16:43, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The only problem to my mind is that it is feasibly possible to get a non-stance IMS as well. The only thing I can think of off the top of my head which isn't elite or in the primary of another prof is "IWAY!", but there may be others. If combined, these would give a truly horrible IAS+IMS+Armour Penetration... especially given IWAY is in strength too. Using the current IWAY team build (it's been nerfed a bit I know but still), you also have QZ so reapplying PR would be really easy too. 188.74.101.228 15:31, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * IWAY provides IAS, not IMS. Therefore, it doesn't add anything to Primal Rage. IWAY is problematic with Battle Rage. If you ask me, IWAY should simply be nuked. It has no use in normal builds but is problematic in gimmick builds. It's a recurring problem that can be fixed extremely easily. Dark Morphon 15:43, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * FYI you said PR offers bar compression and in the same bullet you say that the warrior still has to take rush. PR doesn't cause bar compression at all as it's a replacement for frenzy alone. So, you probably should just remove that comment.  Personally, I think the skill is well balanced as is.  It forces the warrior to have minimal secondary profession effectiveness in order to better achieve its primary professions role.  There needs to be more skills across the board that create these kinds of options not less.~>Sins  WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 19:28, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * If you want to be able to cancel your stances at any time needed, have a reliable energy cost speed boost AND increased attack speed you will have to take Frenzy, Rush and Sprint. No-one will take those 3 skills, obviously, but Primal Rage and Rush offer those three things. Secondary profession effectiveness? Explain please. I don't understand what the hell you're on about there. Concerning the availability of skills such as this one, no. There shouldn't be even one around. IMS+IAS is a bad combination, that is, bad for balance. Doing double damage while also having a permanent speed boost without the aid of party members shouldn't ever be possible. Dark Morphon 13:43, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No one takes sprint + rush + frenzy in a bar period, what did you even say that for? Frenzy + Rush, Frenzy + Sprint, is what you use, or Flail + Enraging Charge in hammer builds.  If you are trying to justify your point by saying that PR lets players put sprint and frenzy into one skill, I don't really care. The usage penalty is the worse of the two and it's elite.  Many elites do that or have effects similar to that, melshot pulls hunter's shots bleeding into cripple, RC removes all conditions and heals, BR is an IMS and adrenal charger, migraine is arcane conundrum + conjure phantasm, SV is empathy+backfire, bsurge is bflash + lightning strike...on and on and on.  You don't deal double damage, you attack 33% faster and take double damage yourself.  Like I said, if you want the near perma ims of 13 seconds you only get minimal effectiveness from your secondary profession.  That means no option for conjures, weak death pact sig, and minimal effectiveness for any other secondary options that might be a good fit in a particular team build.  Players who sacrifice points out of strength to do that don't have have even more of a down time.  Additionally PR has a recharge time almost 4x greater than frenzy's, which means decent teams that pays attention to a warrior spike or halfass spike to force a warrior into rush.  Then the warrior is stuck without an IAS for 8 or so seconds, as opposed to frenzy which is recharged by the time said spike or halfass spike is over.  ~>Sins  WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 18:40, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Primal Rage gives you the option to have something equilevant to Rush+Sprint+Frenzy. If you had read what I typed above, you'd have read that I said no-one takes that. Not very strange of course, 3 skill slots is too much for just an IAS+IMS. I'm fully aware of what is ran. That doesn't take away the fact that this is bar compression. Frenzy and Sprint in one skill was exactly what I was talking about, thanks for finally getting that. You then continue by comparing this skill to totally unrelated ones. Blinding Surge? That skill is used because of the AoE, the damage is just a bonus. Migraine? Again, the degeneration is only a bonus. Melandru's Shot? This skill has extreme bar compression and can thus be also called a skill that adds up to power creep. Restore Condition? Exactly which two elites does this (indeed very powerful) skill combine? Battle Rage is the only skill that has a use semi-similar to this skill, but only when it's abused with IWAY. On its own, it's inferior to Primal Rage. The bigger increased movement speed is barely noticeable as when you need the speed boost, 25% is almost always enough. The adrenaline gain boost is almost equal to that provided by Primal Rage's additional adrenaline provided by the IAS. What's missing here? 50% extra DPS and the ability to still be in your stance after you used Bull's Strike. Concerning secondairy skills, everyone runs Shock on an Axe Warrior. You don't need to spend attribute points in that and thus your point is moot. People only really run Conjures on Sword Warriors (which are barely used) that run Hundred Blades and people only run Death Pact Signet on Hammer Warriors. In the rare occassions that people DO run Conjures with Primal Rage, the fact that your opponent can't kite from you in normal situations and the fact that you still have about 8-10 seconds worth of IMS/IAS make up for it. What other elite skills would you run on an Axe Warrior? Losing out 30 damage on spikes because you don't take Eviscerate is totally worth the numerous advantages that Primal Rage provides. Concerning spiking the Warrior whenever he activates Primal Rage, sure you can do that. But then you waste your spike on slowing down a Warrior a bit. In the rare ocassions that spiking the Warrior is better than spiking the Monk, yes, the Warrior's stance will be recharging and yes, that's annoying. The fact that this almost never happens should tell you enough: Warriors aren't likely to be attacked as it decreases your pressure quite a bit and only slightly relieves pressure and thus this is barely a problem for them. I've been spending this entire post so far explaining to you why Primal Rage is overpowered. Of course, if that would be the only problem, a number change would suffice. However, the ability to use both an IMS and an IAS at the same time is flawed to the core. This is because it ignores kiting. If you're going to be able to move faster all the time, why would the opponent bother kiting from you? The only thing you'll be getting is more damage from criticals. An IMS without IAS is fine because you will be dealing less damage and will be getting less adrenaline over time while you're in it. An IAS without IMS is fine because your opponent will be able to kite from you more easily. Frenzy and Rush are so balanced because they reward a Warrior making the right choices. When IMS and IAS are combined, however, problems arise. Suddenly the Warrior can always catch up with kiting foes without losing their additional damage and adrenaline gain. Suddenly the Warrior can Bull's Strike a running target and continue DPSing at full rate afterwards. Suddenly kiting has lost its value as you're getting critical'd all the time. The combination IMS+IAS reduces smart play. Smart play is good and should be encouraged as much as possible. Therefore, IMS+IAS is bad. Got it memorized? Lol, this has become one hell of a wall of text. Dark Morphon 14:29, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Sins you don't have a clue about the why of morphy simply because you don't know how balanced gw is like/would be like.You don't know how much effect the powercreep had.And every comment you make just shows it.Primal rage is charge + frenzy in one but it doesn't require the att split or ANOTHER slot.Yes charge affects the whole party but what else do you need to affect then the warrior these days ? IMS' are alot easier to get,just tuck in Storm djin's Haste or Dash or w/e you like and you got it.Along comes the fact that you don't need the general mobility as much anymore.Its just rly nice to have that permarush stuck on your frenzy because it DRASTICALLY increases your DPS and makes it alot easier to land bull.If Eviscerate is considered to be balanced and PR is *always* taken over eviscerate these days then do you rly think that is normal ? Yes Dismember has something to do with it but its not just that.IMS and IAS together is nothing similar to just IAS or just IMS its quicker adrenaline,more pressure,more frequent spikes,more mobility,.... in short its powercreep Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] 17:37, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * To add in you can say that attacking the PR will force him to cancel in most cases and while this may be true it is incredibly *hard* to actually do this with succes.Wether you like it or not your focus is not infinite this means that if you are watching for a PR you are going to lose focus on something else.You will also have to adjust your positioning if you want to you know use your main damage dealer to force that cancel and that means you won't be pressuring a mesmer or ele in the meanwhile.So no that argument is not valid.As well as ofcourse that the recharge doesn't make the mechanic any more good or balanced Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] 17:40, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Targetting a meleer isn't hard, neither is forcing a warrior out of a double damage stance. A mindful mesmer uses empathy as the warrior engages or target rush with diversion, any ele uses various ranged dmg skills, get meleers to come and lineback every so often, or just pull a team spike. My points still stand, PR isn't a low recharge skill therefore any decent team will know to spike immediately or apply some form of heavy pressure when they see a warrior activate it.  That forces a monk to use ~2x more energy because the warrior is taking 2x the damage.
 * Dark, the other skills I would run on an Axe Warrior are Whirling Axe and Coward. Whirling Axe you can claim to be power creep, I suppose, but I don't have a problem with the skill's concept.  Mostly because defensive stances have been nerfed and are still very effective even with the existance of stance breakers.  Coward has had the same effect forever, I think its had a cost tweak in it's history but I don't quite remember.  Point is there are options and they are viable and you can't just cry power creep about them all, because in this case it hasn't been a problem.  As a side note, I forgot to mention that stance breakers are a really simple counter to PR, rush, frenzy, or w/e a warrior is using, especially wild throw.~>Sins  WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 19:30, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You do realise you answered completely besides the point right ? Also you do realise using diversion as a argument is as retarded as wasting diversion on a warrior ? You do realise it isn't even used right ? That empathy is fucking retarded both as mechanic as the power it has atm.No targetting melee isn't hard but I don't think you should be able to force a war out of frenzy without any damage or just 1 hex.You don't know what power creep is since your used to it so stop trying to argue Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] 14:15, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Target Rush with Diversion? You serious? First of all it's extremely easy to dodge Diversion if it's used in that way (you're really stupid if you don't see that coming) secondly, nearly impossible to hit Rush with it and thirdly, a waste of a skill as you're not using it to take out a more important skill such as Word of Healing.
 * Empathy, which is a stupid skill to begin with as it disables play, can be countered either by Hex removal (in non-hexway meta's) or Spirit Bond. It's about as easy to stop it as it is to apply it, really.
 * About the other damage skills, as I already said, if you use it for that, you won't be using it when you really need it, that is, when spiking a Monk. Really, you can do all this shit but it's almost always better simply to target the monk instead. Monks spending double energy would be true if it weren't for Protection Prayers.
 * Now that that argument is out of the way (really, stop bringing it up), we'll see whatever other things you have to say. Whirling Axe is a skill that is mostly used when it's needed to be able to stop a Monk's stance oftenly, also known as when we're in a stale/hexway meta. Not really a good scenario is it? Whirling Axe itself is quite innocent, but it's obviously a bad omen when it's around. "Coward!" is a pretty nice skill but really, it's not needed when your opponent can't kite anyway through the use of Primal Rage.
 * Concerning Stance enders, I'd rather not waste Wild Throw on a Warrior as it takes forever to charge. It's the same for all these "counters": you'd either rather use them on something else or you can counter those counters easily. It's a bad argument and you should really, REALLY, stop using it. Dark Morphon 14:30, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I would also like to add that you have only argued about the overpoweredness of Primal Rage while the biggest issue is that the entire mechanic is broken to begin with. Unless you have really good arguments against that, I'll consider this discussion stagnant. Dark Morphon 14:32, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You are arguing with someone who says Wounding Strike is balanced because WoH still heals more than the damage WS inflicts. Do you really expect any logic or good arguments? Pika Fan 15:35, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Everything I do on this site is nothing more than a brain exercise. I don't expect anything, to be honest. Still, I like discussing with him as it is still a challenge to debunk his arguments. Dark Morphon 15:50, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * So you are saying all your contributions are trolling? I like PR as it is now. King Neoterikos 00:23, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No, not at all. I just don't have any expectations here. Concerning PR, have you read any of the things I said above? I suggest you do that. There are good reasons to change this skill. Dark Morphon 15:34, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * He doesn't use arguments he answers completely besides the point.Also Pika good point :p Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] 16:07, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * @Pika, I said RS was like the offensive version of WoH, not that WS is balanced with WoH. That whole discussion is under Dark's RS feedback.


 * @Lil, Diversion isn't a waste on a warrior. It's unlikely to work because it's such a telegraphed skill, but with people such as you who think "Diversion is a waste on a warrior", I get to disable dismembers and stances with it.  Next time you are in a match against a warrior divert him as soon and he activates frenzy (or PR) then have your team spike him.  Enjoy, the following 30 seconds after rush ends of double him taking double damage or having minimal effectiveness.  Also how does anything I've talked about have to do with powercreep?  I've been mentioning general concepts and tactics that have been around since proph.  Looking through my old proph strategy guide I see that empathy dealt 10 less damage, but the duration is a bit lower than back in the day, that's some crazy powercreep there right?  Oh and Diversion is actually worse now as it's recharge is a bit longer.  Wild Throw is probably power creep in your eyes though, in fact I bet adding anything new to the game is powercreep to you.  I guess air spike damage has moved more towards water and fire, and those effects currently are a problem.  It doesn't change that midliners have some damage to deal and should.  Lets try not telling me I'm basing my arguments on things that I'm not.  I've been observing the game since it's release and playing it since after factions.


 * @Dark, Apply Diversion argument from lil. Your spirit bond and hex removal argument is validating my simple counters to PR argument, the only thing that doesn't is your point on hexway (a problem on its own).  Double energy point is also validated, because the prot in question cost 10 energy whereas most monk skills cost 5. I get your point on Coward vs PR, but when you look at it more closely.  You see that they have a tradeoff.  Both prevent kiting, but PR is better in general use whereas coward is better in combat.  Vs kiting, 3 second rootings and shutdowns > 25% ims.  That means you have to either say coward is OP bcs it makes positioning easier for a warrior and offer's bar compression or say both aren't OP.  Comparing the fact that one needs adrenaline and the other has a 15 second recharge I'd say I favor coward in terms of cost, due to increased frequency of use, which gives +3 seconds of 100% positioning to you.  You may not want to use wild throw on a warrior due to its AD cost, but sometimes it's probably the best thing to do.  Whirling Axe is a great linebacking skill too by the way, not just for offensive purposes.
 * You lost me about arguing about the OPness of PR. I've been saying it's not and why, while offering points and arguments to show that the combination of cost, duration, taking double damage, 25% IMS, 33% IAS, and elite status is fine. Mostly the arguments have been about tactics and a comparison of similar skill mechanics or counter mechanics as justification. ~>Sins  WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 19:53, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Your whole argument is based on theory,Go play the game.People no longer use diversion as much since they got backfire and empathy.And Yh but what about Diversion,shame on spikes ? What do you think happens when you Divert infuse,spirit bond or anything ? And the punishment of not diverting a anti spike skill would be scoring a kill! But discussing with you is stupid tbh :http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates:September_2006 This is powercreep.Like I said you have no idea so you start making assumptions.How does air magic have anything to do with power creep ? L-orb actually got nerfed slightly afaik.Bsurge is powercreep,Icy shackles was/is powercreep,... I'm not saying all powercreep is bad I'm saying there is just to much and wether you agree with that or not doesn't change the fact that gameplay has changed alot accordingly. Lilondra [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] 05:47, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * How is coward better at positioning yourself then a IMS.Care to explain ? I'm thrilled to have a laugh/hear Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] 05:54, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I already explained it. It has to be in combat, becuase it's an AD skill.  So coward obviously isn't as good for general use like splits or flag running.  However, in combat it shifts the positioning advantage in your favor 100% for 3 seconds.  This is simply because the target can't kite you at all while knocked down, and your closing rate of movement is probably 1 or 1.25 (IMS rate).  Whereas an ims (rush or PR) shifts the advantage your way 25% for however long you are in the stance.  The problem that arises is the target can easily kite (that's why we love bull's strike+shock), so the closing rate of positioning is probably going to be .5 or less depending on how the target is moving.  On top of the positioning advantage foes can't activate aftercast skills, so you have shutdown built in.  Coward is essentially increased knockdown availability because the charge rate is so quick, but the fact that it's an instant cast and ranged is what makes it so good.  The target has 3 options stay still and avoid the shutdown, kite and get knocked down, or try to make their movements dynamic to force a waste of the skill (kinda hard to pull off vs an insta cast).


 * Just becuase Diversion isn't in the meta atm doesn't mean my argument is theory. I'm sorry that you replace diversion on your mes bars or just never diverted a warrior after a frenzy, that's your loss.  However, don't assume I'm ignorant.  Just becuase I use diversion on warriors doesn't mean I don't try to land it on anti-spike skills.  When I discovered how effective Diversion was on frenzy warriors I was actually upset, and had a stretch where I was arguing for it to be nerfed.  I've since accepted the skill is going to stay OP.  Unfortunately though, discussing with you is like talking to an ultra conservative religious about science. By the way, the only assumption I made was to point out the idiotic extent people take the powercreep argument.  It's obviously an issue, look at the current meta, it's all ranged spikes that are ready to go again after a few seconds.  It's just not an issue with this skill in this state.  The only Diversion theory craft I'll throw up here is my idea of Essence Glyphing Diversion for a true instant cast while using a brawn over brain shield set.  Throw in Auspicious incantation with Panic to use on a high energy set and you have yourself half a build.  Do with that idea whatever you will, I can't do anything with it because I don't play very much anymore.  How OP would that be, to have the ability to undercut a WoH with no energy sacrifice?  Another sum of the parts powerhouse mechanic combination, hurray hidden energy (Please detect sarcasm).~>Sins  WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 07:01, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, what game do you play? In the game I play, disabling key Monk skills is a lot more useful than disabling a Warrior, if you can pull it off at all, which seems hard to me if you are using it AFTER the opponent used Frenzy. If you send your Warrior to a place where it's likely that he'll get spiked, you should prot him. Furthermore, even if it was a valid tactic, there would be no difference between using it on a Warrior with Frenzy and one with Primal Rage. Both would be screwed over big-time. It's simply not relevant to the issue at hand, namely Primal Rage being overpowered. Every Axe Warrior either uses Frenzy (in combination with Whirling Axe) or Primal Rage.
 * Concerning the simple counters, the only skills that apply for these standards would be Empathy, a skill that almost completely counters auto-attacking to begin with. It not only has a stupid functionality but is also overpowered, which is why it needs a rework/ 25/90 style nerf. I generally don't take stupid, imbalanced skills into consideration when looking at other skills because they are bad themselves to begin with and give you a flawed view of the game.
 * Coward vs PR: You seem to forget that Warriors need to change targets fast and can only use the 3 second Knock Down time ocassionally if they want to spike. For that, Bull's Strike is sufficient. The IMS is definitely better for quickly building adrenaline and DPSing opponents as you can catch up to your foe and change targets fast. In practical situations, therefore, the IMS is ALWAYS superior for your own positioning. Primal Rage is superior for building up to spikes and damaging in "normal" situations and things like running the flag. What does Coward offer? Superior unselfish positionous advantages and the ability to shutdown foes, neither of which are conventional Warrior roles which can be taken on by another character instead. Coward offers positional advantages and shutdown whereas Primal Rage offers extra damage, faster spike build-up and IMS outside of "normal" situations. It's up to you to decide whether you like a focussed skill better than one that provides utility outside of the conventional Warrior role (much like Gale does if you take it instead of Shock), but Primal Rage supports a stupid damage-based meta and Coward does not. Since the meta is very spiky I'd say Primal Rage is currently a lot more useful than Coward is. At any rate, I consider Coward superior balance-wise because of this (although I would probably increase the cost of Coward to 5/6 adrenaline), further supporting my opinion that Primal Rage needs a rework. Now, could you please use your next post to discuss whether the FUNCTION is fine instead of arguing whether the power of this skill is fine? After all, that's the most important part of this discussion. Dark Morphon 12:26, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Eviscerate is not dead yet. RtL is also used on axe warriors in GvG. @Sins You wanted to buff RS to meet the standards of WS, and you say RS is balanced because WoH outdamages it. WoH still outheals WS, so by intelligent assumption you are saying WS is balanced because WoH outheals it. That is the reason why people are saying you don't actually play the game, lol diversion on a warrior when they still maintain dps with autoattacks anyway. 68.68.107.27 12:34, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * @IP (probably Pika), I said to compare staple skills and considered RS a staple scythe skill. RS vs WoH.  I never said to buff RS to meet WS's power.  The only buff I presented was to change it to a 1 second activation time (in which case the enchant removal should be done away with), because I don't think it's quite balanced to have what is essentially an offensive melee version of WoH have ~3x longer recharge and not be able to gain HSR or HCT.


 * @Dark, What is hard about using Diversion after you see Frenzy or PR and spiking? I don't care how many prots you have, in a convential balanced team with Mid Front and Back lines PoD, Rend, or Strip is pretty much standard.  Additionally, at some point a warrior will be in a sticky situation without prots.  In the game I play, I find picking on the weak link is a lot more useful than targetting any one particular role, as opposed to just targetting a role becuase that's the role other people tend to target.  In the game I play It's better to take the window then to keep bashing on the locked door.


 * I don't get why you think Diversion isn't simple. I guess bcs unless your on a coordinated team it probably won't work?   Additionally, there's cripple from Mel Shot, Crip Shot, Pin Down.  There's H20 Magic, which needs MoI nerfed at the very least dealing AL dependant dmg.  And of course traditional melee hate skills yada, yada, yada, yada...  As for your opinion on empathy.  I don't care that the skill is what it is, if it wasn't it'd be too easy to deal with on a team scale.  Have your team take mental note everytime you get hit by it, at that point countdown 7 seconds, have either your mes or ranger target the enemy mes and pop it with D-Shot, Savage shot, Power Block, or Power Drain.  If you're not on a coordinated team countdown when it will be recharge and be ready to shock or d-chop, or disarm in my case.  I love crip slash builds.


 * You are correct sir. IMS will always be superior for YOUR OWN POSITIONING, but not overall positioning advantage.  Therefore an ims is NOT always better than a 3 second knockdown (again why people take shock+bulls).  Coward offers better position advantage, which is a convential role warriors use.  Knocklock (shutdown) is a convential warrior role fyi.  Additionally we're comparing the overally effects of the skills in builds.  IMS + IAS are going to be in both a PR build and a Coward build.  The difference is increased positioning advantage outside and inside of battle.  PR has it outside, where as Coward has it inside (on top of shutdown).  Both effectively help charge adrenaline, but coward will be much better at it.  You totally trapped yourself 100% when you said PR supports a spiky meta.  Team spikes are a part of the game.  Frenzy supports spikes, cancel skills support spikes.  Fast Casting Supports spikes.  Disenchantment supports spikes.  Bad argument.


 * I already discussed the function. I said what it is (5, 15 ,  durationed 25% IMS + 33% IAS with a double damage penalty), and I said why it's fine (forcing cancels is easy, long down time, sacrificing points out of strength severely hurts the skill).  Your opinion differs from mine, so the only thing to do is justify opinions with supporting information.  That's what I've been doing.~>Sins  WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 19:16, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The fact, maybe, that Diversion (after calculating Fast Casting) has 2 cast time? If your Warrior is in a situation where he would get spiked easily in 2 or more seconds and can't be protected/infused easily anyway, you don't need Diversion. If your Warrior is in a situation where he will be easy to protect/hard to spike, even Diversion won't force the Warrior to cancel his Stance and get it disabled. If you are in a situation where you need to coordinate your team from a different position into one where you are able to spike the Warrior and spend 2 seconds to do that (Diversion's cast time), don't you think a good Protection Prayers Monk can see that coming? If you're going to assume that the team using Diversion is coordinated, then I'm going to assume that so is the defending team. And even when not considering all this, apparently it's needed to use a teamspike to force the Warrior into using Rush through Diversion. Using both a teamspike and Diversion to cancel just this Stance, this is getting more and more expensive! Also note that Blackout is a lot better at this. Blackout actually provides you with a few seconds where the Warrior literally CAN'T cancel his spikes, can't get his Diversion removed and on top of that loses all of his adrenaline. Diversion is simply far from ideal for using this because of timing issues. If you just Diversion the Infuser and then spike someone you might have a chance at diverting Infuse Health, something that seems far more useful to me, if you can pull it off, which is hard. But even if all this would be false and Rush would be as easy to divert as you claim it to be, it wouldn't say anything about Primal Rage at all as it affects Frenzy just as much. Coward, an adrenaline-fuelled skill, would take longer to charge as well as you don't have an IMS for a whole minute. In fact, Primal Rage would be better off as you could still use it to run flags or ganks unlike Coward, which is a skill that relies completely on "normal" situations. The same goes for all these other counters you provide. Snares affect Warriors with Frenzy and Primal Rage equally much.
 * Concerning Empathy, and team coordination doesn't help stopping Diversion how, exactly? The same can be applied for this skill. Interrupt it as soon as you see it coming or get it removed as quickly as possible. If you're assuming that this happens a lot (and it does) for Empathy (without the gay-ass anti-interruption), then the same has got to be true for Diversion. It's ridiculous to assume it isn't. Unless, of course, I'm missing the point here or something.
 * Knocklocking is a conventional Warrior role, that's true. This is however also completely provided by Bull's Strike, which doesn't cost you adrenaline (thus better for spiking, actually). At any rate, if you want a prolonged reliable knockdown, you're better off with Hammers anyway. "Coward supports adrenaline better". How exactly? You have to explain that. To me, it seems quite like the opposite. It costs you one adrenaline to use (slows down adrenaline build-up) and provides a snare only for one target, whereas Primal Rage offers increased movement speed for ALL targets. While Coward bars provide IAS and IMS, it doesn't provide both at the same time.
 * Concerning my argument about Primal Rage supporting spike metas, no, it's not stupid. Frenzy is the non-elite of Primal Rage (obviously). It provides you with additional attack speed for faster adrenaline build-up and additional damage. This is fine, of course, as Warriors have been balanced around this skill since day one. Primal Rage, however, adds a shitton of damage and spike build-up capabilities. It changes the situation these skills are used in directly, in a damage adding way. If too much skills do this, you get a spikey meta. That's not good for balance. A skill that does something equal to this is Mirror of Ice, which adds damage to every one of your Water Magic Hexes. Of course, the fact that Water Magic deals damage is fine, it has done that since day one. However, Mirror of Ice changes the situation. Lots of other examples (Glass Arrows is another one or Pain of Disenchantment) are there and every one of them lead to a more spikey meta. While there isn't anything directly wrong with a skill such as this one being around, when it becomes many of them, you get a meta like this one. Primal Rage doesn't do any such thing, in fact, it just greatly improves your damage/adrenaline gain and gives you Sprint. When I look at your arguments for this skill's function, all I see is downsides. These affect the skill's power, not how the skill affects play. As I mentioned before, Primal Rage has a negative effect on kiting and supports a spike meta, two things that have a negative impact on strategy. Dark Morphon 11:07, 17 November 2009 (UTC) (and an update/rewrite: Dark Morphon 17:05, 17 November 2009 (UTC))
 * It would be amusing if prage kept it's IMS and IAS but was changed to a skill so it couldn't be canceled (and possibly prevented stances from being used). It really doesn't make sense that someone who is enraged can stop it any time they want to. But yeah, that would just be spikey for everyone involved with that character. Rypofalem 20:04, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

After reading through some interesting insights on the skill, I would like to give my two cents worth as well. I feel that any skill that does too many things at once is unbalanced. Each skill a player uses need to have a tradeoff. In agreement to what User:Dark Morphon said, if a player wants to potentially deal more damage in a shorter amount of time, the player should have to trade off something like mobility in order to do so. Likewise, if a player wants to move around faster, he has to trade off a higher offensive capability. Giving players bar compression only means one thing: each member of your party can do more than what 1 person should be capable of. Prior to the buff of primal rage, you needed to coordinate a snare on your target in order to IAS properly, else your target just runs around and around, which is good, because PvP is supposed to require teamwork. With the buff of primal rage, you don't need a snare oriented character to make sure you don't have to run half an aggro bubble each time you attempt to spike, ignoring the need for teamwork, your midline can simply press skills on their bar and be rewarded for blindly using skills instead of worrying about eliminating your foe's ability to kite and mitigate damage. In short, positioning and kiting/prekiting should always be viable, as it requires player skill and team effort to execute successfully. Bar compression should never eliminate the need for a team effort to achieve rewards. Emphasis on the "team" rather than the "individual" is the key to balance. Most Japanese Greetings 17:46, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I started reading,then lol'd then stopped reading because its just not worth the time Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] 18:26, 17 November 2009 (UTC)