ArenaNet:Skill feedback/Ranger/Bows

William Wallace Issue -- 10:04, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Discussion
 * Issue
 * Bows are tremendously weak for damage and are decent for pvp, but for pve they are terrible which forces players to either play as another barrage ranger or interrupter.


 * Suggestion
 * Decrease the amount of fast activating bow attacks and increase the damage. Players will assume that it will be exploited with rapid fire,  but keep in mind you can only have one preparation on a character at once so it will remove the cover condition aspect (unless they want to spam poison tip signet with it's one second activation time).  OR  Make all bows have a certain amount of armor penetration similar to horned bows since they already do piercing damage (piercing is suppose to penetrate through armor) which currently has no impact on the damage whatsoever.

I Second this. An arrow is an Arrow, when you count in velocity/impact and flight speed, even a pointy stick can get through fair armor. Bows should carry inherent AP, Not saying add 20% ap to every bow, but 5~8% should be enough. The current state of rangers limits them to condition spam, interrupts, and using other weapons/skills not of their class.Not to say weapon variation is a bad idea, though) ((yet to see a bow warrior xD)) I know your thinking about the Sundering/Penetrating attack combo off the bat, but the skill combo wasn't really dangerous, the 1s activation is made it unfair.(The nerfs put some control on that combo though, ((a bit overnerfed, no build should truly have to die)) and it should be reverted for PvE) O set to 27-30 All im saying is that the +5~8% AP would cause rangers to have more clause and spike-abilty that it should already have. Or hell, add an inherent 30% chance of +10% AP. whatever you think it should be. but bow are lacking their solid damage. Really, have you even been shot with an arrow? Im sure its more damaging than getting slashed with a scythe.(dear god tohugh, dont set it at 19-41) xD

Have fun w/ the idea, Izzy. Phill Gaston 17:52, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Damage from bows - 21:32, 30 April 2008
Bows are just underpowered compared to spears in terms of DPS.

The fastest bows fire once every 2 seconds for 15-28 damage, or 7.5-14 DPS. Their critical damage is not impressive, about as good as an axe and slightly better than a spear. They are two handed, you cannot use a shield or offhand with them. Since all bow attacks are energy-based, using a bow with a pet will quickly drain your energy.

Spears can be thrown once every 1.5 seconds for 14-27 damage, or about 9-18 DPS. Much better than a bow. Plus, you can wield a shield with them. Plus their variety of adrenaline attacks and energy based attacks makes them ideal with a pet.

Rangers are much better with spears and scythes. Scythes work well because their attack skills usually cost 5 energy(expertise reduces this to 2 or 3). They do 9-41 damage, do a lot of damage on critical hits, and attack once every 1.75 seconds(need I mention that that is FASTER than the fastest bows which are 2 seconds?). This isn't even that bad as there are a lot of "quick attack" dervish skills. Plus it doesn't help that rangers are punished for their expertise with the majority of bow attacks being 10 energy while doing LESS damage than scythe attacks.

Solution: Since a spear has a minimum damage of 14(1 less than minimum on a sword) and maximum damage of 27 (1 less than maximum on an axe), give bows damage of 18-40 (minimum is 1 less than hammer, maximum is 1 less than a scythe). Then bows will actually be useful.

Oh, and to add insult to injury, adrenaline-based spear attacks complement a pet better than bow attacks.

Wuhy's Suggestion

 * Issue
 * Above


 * Suggestion
 * Since weapon base damage would be tricky to change if not even impossible, but let's make it simpler. Reduce the refire rate of every bow type so it would look like this: Shortbow: 1.7 sec, Flatbow: 1.9 sec, Longbow: 2 sec, Recurve bow: 2.2 sec, Hornbow: 2.3 sec, then it would do comparable damage to DAGGER AUTOATTACK rofl... Also, revamp all bow attack skills, particularly higher recharges on interrupts, more energy management possibilities, lower bow attack costs, less fast-activation, nerfing expertise to ranger skills only and nerfing its reduce to 3% for each rank... - Wuhy  [[Image:User_Wuhy_sig.jpg|18px]] 12:22, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

72.43.62.68's Suggestions-7 June 2009
Bows suck for the most part. Sure, their non-elite interrupt skills are OP. They also have a nice condition spam build and can run PS/CG which needs to be fixed IMO.

These are just gimmicks. Worse, every bow ranger is stuck running the same or similar builds-crippling shot, burning arrow/interrupt spam, or PS/CG gimmick in PvP. In PvE, the only viable elites for rangers are Barrage and Incendiary Arrows because of the AoE.

But everything else is inviable, particularly without the last 2 chapters. Note: All of these changes have to be applied at once, otherwise there will be some serious balance issues.

Issue and Cause: Bows have the lowest damage over time. Since they have a slow attack rate, any skills that inflict +damage such as conjures/orders give less benefit to bows. The reason for this is that bows get preparations. If they were faster, the damage from preparations would quickly become overpowered. Additionally, preparations essentially mean that bow rangers have 7 skill slots as they would be inviable without preparations, sort of how Elementalists are borked due to attunements.
 * Point 1: Damage over Time

Solution: Buff bow refire rate to at least the same as a spear. Make bows do more damage. Nerf preparations. In particular, remove damage bonuses or severely limit damage from preparations and give them other effects such as conditions, interrupts, or even healing the user.


 * Point 2: "Rangers Are Condition Spam", or at least what the PvP elite would have you believe

Issue and Cause: Bows are good for spreading certain conditions. This has resulted in the PvP elite considering bows only as condition spam. Every other use is considered "turreting" which is really not an issue since spears can turret way better than bows, particularly with the recent nerfs to bows. Bows are more easily dodged(Read the Wind is useless and doesn't count) and are two-handed. The recent update removed almost all viable damage from bows and turned it into.... bleeding? That's RC food.

Solution: Nerf condition spam, and buff damage from bows.


 * Point 3: Energy Costs and Recharge of Non-Elite Skills.

Average attack skill costs for most professions is 5 energy and recharges are generally low. However, if 10 energy skills and 10 second recharge skills were arrows, the Ranger's skill list would look like a pincushion! There are 26 unique non-elite bow attacks (2 are duplicate Factions skills) that are not PvE only or monster skills. Out of these: some quick statistics:


 * Number of bow attacks that have energy and recharge both below 10: 9 (1 is a duplicated skill)
 * Core: 1 (0 viable)
 * Prophecies: 1 (1 viable)
 * Factions: 3 (1 viable, duplicate of the one in Prophecies)
 * Nightfall: 3, all viable (and they are all more viable then the ones in Factions)
 * EotN: 2 (1 viable)

As you can see, Anet has a particular hatred for the first chapter since it's the cheapest one. Taht also explains why it gets no PvE updates, PvE skills, weekend events, or special forms of PvP.

Not counting duplicates, bows only have 5 viable non-elite bow attacks with both recharge and energy cost below 10.

Solution: Buff bows.


 * Point 4: Invalid Arguments and Why Overpowered Interrupts keep Bows in the Trash Bin

Issue and Cause:Lots of PvP elite will tell you that bows are overpowered. Why? Actually, bows are not overpowered. The PvP elite argument is invalid. There are a few overpowered skills. Non elite skills should never cost 3 energy(4 if you miss) while interrupting and recharging in 5 seconds. Non-elite skills should never be able to spam-lock skill bars. Unblockable cripple covered by poison every 4 seconds is imbalanced, k? Why is this all around better tahn Mind Burn after 4 years? Unlimited condition spam on autoattack, W00T! Wait-I'll run it on a pack hunter gimmick since spears are better. Bows are not overpowered. They are the weakest equipment in the game. There are just a few overpowered, broken skills and everything else is trash. This does not make bows balanced or overpowered, it just means everyone runs the same bar. Go figure.

Solution: Well, start with banning the PvP elite trolls for getting the game messed up. Nerf the overpowered bow attacks and buff the underpowered ones. A monkey could do it.


 * Point 5: Expertise keeps bow attack energy cost up

Issue and Cause: If all bow attacks were 5 energy, rangers would be so overpowered that the game would be unplayable. This is because Expertise + Expert's Focus + Zealous bows say O HAI and provide a stream of bow attacks that cost about as much as listening to a radio station. Passive energy management is ALWAYS a problem. It raises skill costs (see Elementalist skill costs and Attunement) and forces the user to spec another attribute or lose a skill slot.

Solution: Change Expertise so that it gives rangers a different bonus, perhaps decreasing recharge of their skills, giving small damage boosts, whatever. Passive energy management needs to be removed. In particular, add Expertise-linked skills that give the ranger energy so that the expertise-based energy management requires skill slots (This will also make RaO less broken since RaO builds are already hard pressed for skill slots). As an added bonus, this will alleviate(but not completely fix) issues caused by rangers wielding scythes and spears.


 * Point 6: Rangers < Mesmers!

Issue and Cause: Mesmers have been receiving a lot of broken skills at the same time Rangers are getting nerfed into the ground. Mesmers are better at causing degen. Hexes don't fail to hit, there's no "Remove All Hexes Plus Word of Healing Every 3 Seconds" skill, some have nasty peripheral effects in addition to degen, they aren't tied to crap equipment, and can be piled on by the dozen with effects stacking over. Let's see... Conditions only have 1 or 2 effects, re-applying a condition over the same condition confers no benefit, conditions can be cleared every 3 seconds WHILE healing the recipient. Mesmers can apply ranged deep wound, bows cannot. Thanks to broken skills Mesmers can outdamage rangers easily and monks without PnH can't do anything about them

Solution: See Point 4's solution