User talk:Gaile Gray/Archive Support Issues/2007

Banned
Hello Gaile, I don't know where I should put this u so I'll bring it up with you here. To cut straight to the point I was banned for using "racial slurs" sometime in the last 22 hours (that was the last time I logged on) for a period remain of 54 hours. I cannot possibly even begin to imagine anything I'd done wrong to warrant a ban, I'm just wondering if there is any way you can double check a ban and a way where I can visually see the proof; because as far as I know, I did nothing wrong. The reason I'm very sure I didn't say anything wrong is because I was playing with Auron The entire night getting our paragons through nightfall. -- scourge  09:16, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll admit, I used racial slurs nonstop - but it was mostly in team chat (with just Scourge, naturally, as we were h/hing pve). One might have slipped whilst I was in a town, but Scourge was the one banned; he guaranteed didn't use any racial slurs. - Auron 09:21, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * weirdly anet wont even supply the user in question with direct proof of why the person has been banned instead opting for a smug and mysterious "the ban was warranted" type of message, which is incredibly annoying! I think it might also be in contravention of the Data Protection Act in the UK -- Salome 09:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Surely they just can't ban me for something which I didnt do, one would think that they would have to provide evidence, at least an automated email to the email address that has been banned :( At least Gaile as the Community Relations Manager will be able to give some insight. -- scourge  09:33, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Heh, kinda reminds me of when I was banned for "inappropriate language" for 72 hours on the spot, and when I looked, someone on this wiki had done worse than I and had yet to be banned... Armond 09:35, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yea, support needs to provide better umm... support. See this too: Help:Ask an account question. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 09:40, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link Aberrant, looks like I made the right choice to go right to the top. :) -- scourge  09:42, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I am really sorry, but I do not have the ability to investigate this kind of thing. This is a Support issue, obviously, and it's Support that has the tools, the data, and the staffing to research what happened. You should request that they look into this matter for you. They will do that and, if the block is an error, they will reverse that block. I'm sorry that I cannot help more directly but I know you can get assistance from the Support Team. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 17:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * By the time support gets around to checking the suspension will be wore off anyway lol. --Deathwing 17:03, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * To the support team: The customer is your friend ! Somehow your company makes profits thanks to him ! Love your customers !  Michael Moore.
 * I've just fired off a ticket, thanks for your help Gaile :) -- scourge  22:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Good! I think you'll find you get a speedy response, but with the four-day holiday, I'm afraid there may be a bit of a delay this week. I hope not, though, so I'll keep my fingers crossed! -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 22:37, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I got through to a person named Emily (which I'm hoping is Emily Diehl) about 4 hours ago, I haven't heard anything after I sent off all my details. -- scourge  04:18, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * No, sorry, Emily Diehl does not work in Support. Or perhaps I should ask, "got through" as in telephone? Email? How did you contact the team? I'm hopeful it'll work out soon, and it very well may! -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 04:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * When I lodged a ticket I got message from a person named Emily, guess it's not her though ;) I'm hoping to get this sorted before those mystery treats start dropping, I'd hate to miss out on them :( -- scourge  04:56, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You will need to fax them a copy of all of your cd keys, send them a fax of all the original boxes, copies of all the receipts, your income tax statements, a copy of your birth certificate, a copy of your fathers birth certificate, a copy of the title for your car, your driver's license, your 8th grade proficiency test scores, a copy of your diploma, and your dogs left rear leg. After this, then they might be able to help. --Deathwing 07:28, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't forget the "Do you pay child support?" checkbox on the ticket form. - Auron 07:53, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Omg we don't do 8th grade proficiency tests in Australia and my dog is buried deep the ground! I hope I never have to contact support! 58.110.137.152 08:19, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * OFMG quickly go dig up your dog before it suffocates--Cursed Angel 09:18, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Rofl, you bunch of [expletive deleted]. Oh [expletive deleted], I hope I don't get [expletive deleted] banned from the Wiki for saying [expletive deleted], [expletive deleted], or [expletive deleted]. Alaris 15:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * you wont as long as you dont break that npa thing. --Cursed Angel [[Image:Image-User_Cursed_Angel_sig_icon.jpg‎|19px|talk]] 18:58, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Question about NPA..... can we personally attack ourselves? I mean when I get mad at me cuz I wont agree with me, I can get pretty rough. Sometimes I hurt my feelings. -- Counciler 21:28, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Here's the update from Anet: 1) You were banned. 2) You're not getting any proof. Unfortunately, it is not possible for us to show the log files in question. However, we can confirm that your account has been banned for inappropriate language. Specifically, we were repeatedly posting on the Chat channel a racial slur. All the warnings about customer "support" have been warranted, it's the most pathetic thing I have ever seen. -- scourge  21:49, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Told ya support was a joke. And I guess cut down on your slurring. Good thing to remember, if it is racist, don't slur when you say it. --Deathwing 22:01, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Deathwing; the thing is, Scourge said nothing remotely racist, let alone an actual racist slur against someone. ANet's staff in charge of placing bans is inept, and (from Scourge's email) so is their support staff.
 * The support staff said in their email that they reviewed chat logs and thought the ban was warranted - they are, indeed, full of shit. If they had done any such thing, they'd have seen it was me doing most of the swearing (and possibly racial remarks) and that Scourge didn't do a damn thing. My only guess is that the entire support system is automated - because humans can't possibly be such great failures.
 * The support staff is either full of absolute retards or they're flat-out lying. They have no such log files, because if they did, they'd be at least somewhat competent; as it is, their failure is reaching an epic level. - Auron 22:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I know, it was all a piss take on the absolute worthlessness of the support team. I don't know if he was being racist or not, but either way, I still think taking it to the support team is a waste of time, air, and e-space. --Deathwing 22:54, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * /signed - Auron 22:56, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I did warn you. It happened to me once too. I got banned for 24 hours for responding to someone in all chat who was chatting about someone "sucking his nuts". I said "I like nuts, they taste nutty!" and got a ban. I know for a fact it was that as i had only been on for an hour and hadn't chatted to anyone else before then, i had also not been on gw for a few days prior. When I e-mailed support asking for them to tell me what i actually said that warranted the ban and in what way, they just out and out refused to answer. I sent them a follow up email saying their stance under UK law was actually verging on illegal due to our data protection legislation and yet still got no response. In short, anets support when it comes to these kind of areas is horrific. I would like to point out that Anet support in other areas, such as game play problems etc... is fantastic and prompt and extremely helpful. It's just the policy of none-disclosure to the person they are actually accusing of violating their user agreement. How can someone defend themself against accusations which are never fully disclosed to them in the first instance? absolute idiocy, imho! --Salome 22:59, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * That's ridiculous Salome, 24 hours for saying you liked nuts... Thanks for your insight though, very interesting. It looks like Anet just wants to fix their game, screw the customer. -- scourge  23:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh i was livid! I can remember sending them a big long rambley email with case references and relevant legislation, showing how their refusal to allow me to defend myself against their accusations actually violates UK legislation and all they said in response is that "we are not allowed to disclose that information". I probably would have argued more with them, but as others have said, my ban ran out and i decided not to invest any more of my energy into something that although I knew I was right in my argument, I couldn't take any further due to their not being any practical recourse. I do sympathize with you though man and honestly my conclusion is that they don't recheck the logs at all and that the banning system is almost completely automated. I think all the do is check if you violated guidelines of the software which hands out the ban instead of actually checking the text and chat log itself for context and meaning -- Salome 23:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Gaile, do you have anything to say about this non disclosure? -- Counciler 23:49, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The diatribe that this thread has become does not belong on my user space. I am not a court of appeal for Support actions. I will address these comments to Scourge: There is a means to undertake an appeal, and apparently you have taken those steps. At this point, Support has said that they have proof of the incident, and because they have the report(s) and the chat logs, I'd be inclined to believe them. You and another person say that you have never used a racist term, and that the block is in error. But when you don't even know the day or time of the report, how certain can you be? Could it have been an error? Could someone else have used the term that then resulted in a block for the wrong person? Yes, that is possible, but I'd say it's not likely, because I've seen the chat log format and one can clearly see who said what. But it is possible, and you may contact Support and follow up if you wish.


 * To others: In situations like this, is Support somehow required to show you the logs? To back up their actions? To get into a "You did" "I did not" argument? Nope, they are not required to do that for disciplinary or ameliorative actions taken on a private server. However, players who are impacted by a Support action for which they are certain the block is an error certainly may ask for them to provide greater details. However, if you dispute that you said something, and the fact that you did is staring the Support Team in the face, there is no purpose in the whole exercise. So, bluntly: If you messed up, take your medicine and move on. Don't protest, put up fake arguments, deny the whole thing, bash the team members, because it won't do you any good when what you did is right there for them to see in black and white. (By the way, this is a general statement and it not directed specifically at Scourge.) So my advice is, if you honestly believe that you were not guilty of the infraction, try asking for greater detail or more information in a responsible and reasonable manner. You're dealing with professionals (even while some in this thread and elsewhere would like to pretend otherwise) and you're dealing with people who would much rather you were playing the game than that you were blocked from it. We have no incentive to mistreat people, and we truly would rather have everyone getting along and interacting well, with no need for blocks, protests, appeals, and other things of that nature.


 * Also keep in mind, the OP was probably blocked for 72 hours. That's not a lifetime, that's a few days. I understand that everyone would like instant response to an appeal, but an appeal take time for research and for escalation to senior staff, when needed, so please be patient and understand that it will not come instantly.


 * Having said all that, I'm moving this to the Misplaced Articles section, for it really didn't belong on my page in the first place, and I do not choose to leave it on my user page now, with the ugly comments, the offensive language, and quite a number of outright untruths. Those choosing to turn this into a Support-bashing exercise: Take it elsewhere -- I will not host this sort of nonsense on my wiki page. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 04:40, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Gaile, why did you archive my topic? This topic is far from over.

You mention "I am not a court of appeal for Support actions" Who is then, who can I speak to about this? The only person I could think of is the "Community Relations Manager for ArenaNet", Oh wait I did that and I got swept under the carpet. Support has stopped responding to my emails now, guess I'm not apart of this community any more.

On another note it is against policy to add comments after archiving into an archive, if I hadn't been told where to find my topic I doubt I ever would have. 05:21, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know who wrote this, but I do apologize for not writing and then archiving. I thought that I had, but in fact I archived and then wrote. I guess you'll have to forgive me, as I'll forgive an unsigned comment. ;)


 * The reason that I archived this was that I didn't, and don't, feel that my page should be the hotspot for complaints. I am not the support department, and it seems to me that the issues with that team need to be taken to that team. Also, there is a lot of unnecessarily unpleasant commentary in these threads.


 * I've decided to create this page, and I welcome the input that you want to give. But note, I don't say "I welcome whatever input you want to give," because I want to help, and generalized comments (like that immediately below) don't help any of us. Make it specific; give details; make it "This happened to me, on this date, and here is what I was told, and here is how I responded," and so forth, not "This friend of mine got banned one time and your support is horrible." Comments on topic, and with sufficient details to be of value to the cause of improvement will be collated into a report or reports that I will make to the entire business team during our weekly meetings. I can't say I'll take one next week, but I will do so soon, and as often as I need to do so. So yes, I'll try to help you, but help me help you by not wasting everyone's time with flames, insults, exaggerations, and other non-helpful things. Thank you for understanding. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 06:31, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

This discussion reveals an Achilles heel in the ArenaNet web. Namely, the user support system is extremely poor. Countless people I know have had terrible problems with it. Unwarranted bans, extreme trouble to get unbanned, among other things. It's like walking across a hot bed of coals to get somewhere only to be told you have to go back. It's more or less a clusterfuck. If Anet wants to foster a good community on the wiki and in-game as well as have people increase game sales through word of mouth, you (meaning the people you work for) can't just merely go around wielding a banhammer and ignoring those innocent users' pleas to have the situation rechecked. As the community realations manager, could you perhaps try to help all of those innocent users clamoring to just try and get a fair say in things regarding the game they paid nearly 200 dollars or more for (3 campaigns, expansion pack, and any additional items purchased)? It's not too much to ask for. Just walk across your office floor and talk to whoever is in charge of this rubbish. This isn't confined to just Scourge. Please try to help the community, Mrs. Community Relations Manager. —ǥrɩɳsɧ ƿoɲ  05:22, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * First, know this: Support is provided by NCsoft, which is 2,000 miles away from me. I'm also writing on a holiday, and at night, so sorry, no, I can't "walk across the floor" and work this out. Support works for a different manager, and a different company, as they are part of NCsoft and I work for ArenaNet. That said, I do talk to the support team often, and I like them very well. I believe that they do a very good job, but I know there are sometimes glitches, as there could be in any largescale operation. I also know that ArenaNet and NCsoft want to make our support of our games as good as we can make it.
 * Rather than sweeping statements, let's talk specifics, so that I can gather information and talk to members of the support team, and other teams, about ways in which we can make improvements. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 06:31, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify Gaile. I really dont follow how one can justify non-disclosure. Surely just sending back a chat log of the portion of chat involved would be enough to quell any "he said/she said" arguments. Also would you kindly explain how anet deems itself exempt from the data protection act 1998? Anet, like all companies which trade within the UK, is required by law to submit to a subject access request (SAR). The fact that it is a private server is neither here nor there in regards to legislation, as one is still paying anet for access to this server and thus would still fall into the ambit of being a customer and thus being under the scope of this act. If you would like me to send you a link to a copy of the act in question, i would be more than happy too. (EDIT: also please let me point out that a user agreement can not and does not trump domestic law and any stipulation within a contract which attempts to do so can be considered as being in mala fides and thus those sections are not legally binding) -- Salome 14:38, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If the servers aren't physically located in the UK does information on those servers fall under your laws? -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 14:49, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Honestly I would have to checkup on that for a more exact answer, however based on my experience i believe the way it would have to work is that through choosing to commercially trade GW within the UK, anet has legally bound themselves to abide by the commercial and corporate laws of the UK and the EU. Therefore where the servers are based should not be important as anet has chosen to trade in the UK and thus any UK customer can reasonably and fairly expect their rights under UK legislation to be respected. Also on a wee side note aren't the EU servers based in Germany? I'm nearly sure that Germany has legislation that is somewhat similar to the data protection act, as i think the UK brought ours into being under EU guidance.I would have to check on that though as German law isnt my strong point. ;) -- Salome 15:17, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, in many ways they need to follow laws of any countries they choose to offer the game in. I'm not too sure about the stuff concerning information on their servers however, that's why I asked. And yeah, if it depends on the server location then it matters where hey store the chat logs. Note that even though players in europe play on european servers the chat logs might be stored elsewhere. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 15:22, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Under the Data Protection Act 1998, sensitive personal information does not include an account history, which is what you are implying, but would include names, emails, credit card details and so on.
 * FYI, The Data Protection Act also only applies if the Data Collector is: an individual who is a resident in the United Kingdom, a body incorporated under the law of the United Kingdom, a partnership or other unincorporated association formed under the law of any part of the United Kingdom, or any person/company who does not fall within what was said previously but maintains within the UK an office, branch or agency through which an activity is carried out or a regular practice of any kind. All authorities within the European Economic territories will pretty much respect other EU acts and laws, under the European Acts of each said parliament (I think). Ale_Jrb  ( talk ) 15:23, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Quote Salome: "...i do also have to say that Anet is not exempt as a private business from disclosure, as i discussed above." Which raises two questions that I really must ask: Are you an attorney? Are you expert in international business law? Because, you see, ArenaNet is a wholly-owned subsidiary of NCsoft and NCsoft is a multi-national, multi-million-dollar corporation that employs expert and top-notch legal counsel in many countries around the world. Those attorneys have reviewed corporate policies and practices, and they review all changes, as well. Given that it is their business to assure that all is in order, I believe that it's fair to say that everything is being conducted in a proper manner. Making suppositions based on one's interpretation of law, and extrapolating that to suggest that a company or individual is in breach of said laws is a common practice on discussion media, but these conclusions are generally incorrect.


 * The company obviously wants and needs to observe and respect the laws of every country. We go to great expense to assure that we do precisely that. If we have failed to do so, I know our practices or policies would be amended very promptly if indeed such amendment was legally required. For after all, the company has shown itself willing to go to considerable trouble to learn and observe laws even for matters as relatively small as offering a modest contest. When you consider that, you have to ask yourself why a company would go to the trouble to assure we're legally allowed to give away a t-shirt, and then turn around and flout laws far more serious than that! It's not logical, is it? I am not an attorney, and I do not have expertise in this field. However, given that I know there are professionals reading every word of every agreement, professionals who are expert in the fields for which they are consulted, I feel confident that the company is observing all legal requirements for the handling of information and in its retention and disclosure.


 * Let's discuss customer support matters on this page and not start down the path of assessing legal issues about which I'm quite confident none of us here is fully qualified to make a judgment. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 19:12, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * FYI I am a solicitor with my main area of expertise in constitutional/administrative/EU and human rights law. I have worked for several major international companies in my time as a lawyer and let me be the first to state that all lawyers are fallible. Claiming that because NCsoft have highly paid solicitors changes this in anyway, is shortsighted. Please Gaile I have not yet questioned your professionalism or your ability to do your job, so kindly refrain from attacking mine. I personally still feel, based upon my past experience in this area, that this would still fall under the ambit of the legislation. However you have asked us to focus upon our opinions of the support services rather than partake in a legal debate, which is a fair enough point. Therefore i would just like to reiterate that a chat log would be more helpful to those who are banned as it would provide context for the banning and a wider understanding of what constitutes a banable offense. -- Salome 01:07, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

This worries me. I am paranoid to make any transactions in game now. ANET needs to address this issue promptly. I know honest people who have been recently banned for no reason and with no explanation and this is not just. What ever happened to honoring your loyal customers? Sure Guildwars is free to play online but thats why most of these people even play the game over other mmorpgs. I enjoy the game very much but this sort of unjust banning is veering me away from the game. If this sort of action is kept up I will definitely not be purchasing guildwars 2.(Lethal Llama 02:02, 29 November 2007 (UTC))

Ban-Reasons Non Disclosure
When somebody is banned it is well known that they are unable to see the proof of WHY they were banned. No logs, no screenshots, not even a direct and specific explanation of why in text. They are only given a vague term like "Spamming" or "Inappropriate Language". What is the reason behind not allowing the banned player to see why he was banned?

This question was at the end of the "Banned" topic you recently archived, but you did not answer it beforehand (according to the page history), and I cannot find the archived version to SEE if you answered it. Please answer it this time, or again. -- Counciler 04:31, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Look in Misplaced Articles. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 04:42, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh snap. Thanks for the redirect, Gaile. I could have SWORN I looked there, but knowing me, I probably overlooked it if I did. -- Counciler 04:50, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And, BAM! They got GAILE-PWNED! AHAHAHA. Thats awesome. -- Counciler 04:53, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You mean she wiped her talk page of ongoing discussion? I'd expect that kind of behavior from my 3 year old nephew, but not from community relations folks. That kind of behavior is what makes the support terrible. They were wrong, and their ego prevents them from coming forward and admitting failure.
 * To re-iterate; my account was not banned. The chances of me saying something racist in all chat are pretty high; if my account was banned, I wouldn't be complaining, because ANet would probably be right. Scourge's account was the one banned, and Scourge said nothing remotely racist. The support staff can go around pretending they're half competent, but they failed here; there's no other way to explain it.
 * But hey, if they were competent, we wouldn't be having this discussion to begin with - I don't bash what doesn't need bashing. - Auron 05:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Better still: Don't bash at all. Help. Right now, you're not. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 06:32, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Your Concerns Are Welcome
I will listen to your concerns about our customer, account, and technical support. I will take those concerns, in fact, directly to the Business Team Meeting for key staff members at ArenaNet. But I can do so only if you keep this on topic and do not resort of insults of people who work on our support teams. I do appreciate that getting blocked -- especially getting blocked in error! -- is not a pleasant thing. I also understand that sometimes you're blocked and, while it's legitimate, you want to have more information. I truly do understand that some players feel we could do a better job. I want to try to help make things better. Provide me with specific concerns, not generalized "they suck" comments. Don't swear. Give me details -- dates, times, messages -- and help me make an improvement in our support that helps the entire community.

Thank you for your willingness to help, and for respecting my requests to keep this conversation on a decent and mature level. -- Gaile 06:11, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * That's one of the problems however. People are playing the game and then they log in and one day and their account is banned. The generic error messages are completely unhelpful to those seeking knowledge of their "transgression". The long and short of it is, people feel they're unwarranted because they have no knowledge of what they did. —ǥrɩɳsɧ  ƿoɲ  06:16, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, in the occasion of a block, what information would be most valuable to have? -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 06:33, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * A copy of the offending chat log at the very least. You can see the most relavent concerns in the first few posts of this talk page. That's a lot of the problem. I'm not a good problem solver, I just point them out. ;) —ǥrɩɳsɧ  ƿoɲ  06:41, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) A screen shot for the evidence, not just a transcript, It's a lot harder to fake a screen shot than it is to just type something out. I think if those were provided it would provide irrefutable evidence that the block was indeed warranted. I have some more thoughts on the subject but I'm halfway out the door. -- scourge  06:42, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Asking for a screenshot is like 'wtf, do you understand anything?'. A game server stores chat logs in text format, saving as images would require more server space than one could imagine. I'm not sure how long they keep the data, but for a few million players the chat data for a couple months even in plain text takes a lot of space. Saving that in image format would be impossible. It's not like they'd try to fake evidence or anything.
 * I do agree that sending the players hat log would be a good way to handle the situation. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 06:49, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, Scourge meant the screenshots that are sent to support when reporting you. Itd be far more reliable to just paste the server chat log. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 06:55, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * A couple of things to remember: First, with the /report function, there is seldom a screenshot available. We cannot go back in time and capture a screenshot, so all we have is a chat log. So, say Support sends a line or two or three from a chat log. I can almost guarantee you that Support will get, "That's a fake." or "I never said that, it must have been someone else." or even "Prove that I said that!" (When, of course, they already have.)


 * If it was me, I'd want the following (tell me what you think): "Oh Friday, November 12, at 4:05 PM Pacific time, you used the following unacceptable language: [line of text here]. For that reason, your account was actioned, and you will not be allowed to play until XX more hours have passed." The risks in providing that detail, though, are: The aforementioned "I didn't do it" claims. More importantly, arguments about "I said [something]. You say it is not allowed. Explain to me why it is not allowed, in 500 words or more." I can promise you that the Support Team doesn't have time to enter into a dialogue about the fine points of swearing, or how racist terms aren't really racist, depending on context, or how it's ok to talk about [unacceptable thing] in public chat, if XX% of the people in that outpost are on your friend's list."


 * In other words, I strongly suspect that Support found it was "cleaner" and that there were fewer frivolous arguments when they researched and established the wrongdoing and then gave only minimal information. I think they may have discovered that giving many details lead to more emails, more repeated tickets, and in the end, the outcome was the same: (1) The player was blocked for a specific number of hours and (2) the player was not happy about that and did not agree it was justified. I guess I'm really curious about how many unjustified protests or appeals would be stopped or instantly resolved if Support did provide those details. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 08:55, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The problem cases where people claim that they didn't do something even after getting the proof will be problem cases neverthless. The additional information would be helpful in the cases where A) a mistake has happened B) the banned person genuinely doesn't know what his mistake was. The support team could just ignore further "but it's not bad at all to say " after giving the chat log, saving their time. That's still much better than the current situation where the customer feels bad for receiving no explanation at all, only an answer that it the ban is not going to be removed.
 * Ofcourse if this change would lead to a huge increase in support tickets it could be reverted to the old state, but I highly doubt that that would happen. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 09:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Personally I've never been banned, but I do understand the concerns. While I am aware that a good deal of outcries of players here and on the forums are unjustified and that most of the bans are in fact the right thing to do, accidents do happen and the Support team is only human- mistakes can be made. Call me old-fashioned, but I look at it the way I would look at being arrested and charged for something. How fair would it be if they arrested me for murder and sent me straight to prison if they never told me who it was I murdered? I feel that as soon as someone files a Support ticket to appeal, providing more details would be the fair thing to do regardless of a player's phrasing. I'm well-aware that people don't always stay polite, but then again, bans are serious business and I'd be upset too.
 * The problem is that players don't get an answer either way, and that the time it takes to file an appeal and await a dodgy answer is often as long as it takes for the ban to expire. It's hardly fair on those few who were banned unjustly.
 * I'm not going into legislation talk as some would, because I don't know enough about it to give my opinion. I do however believe that responding to an appeal with something like 'we're right, we're not going to prove it, and you just have to deal with it' is not a fair way to go about it. I don't know how Support keeps its records, but even something such as a screenshot and a big fat arrow with 'you were being abusive right HERE' is better than a holier-than-thou attitude and little to no explanation at all.
 * That leaves, of course, the matter of opinion. I've seen players throw the F-word and intimate parts around local chat who didn't think they were rude at all. Personally I feel that they shouldn't, as it's not just adults who play this game, but if they got banned they would likely appeal because they felt they hadn't done wrong. A simple 'this was rude, it does not suit GW' or something similar would go a long way- the player wouldn't be happy, perhaps, but they would be less likely to do it again.
 * I have taken some concerns directly to Support before. Something I've seen in Local Chat far too often is the 'I can say what I want and be as rude as I want, and if you don't like it just switch on the filter'-attitude. I don't use my filter, and that's mainly because it's very, very flawed. For example, it used to filter out the word 'ass', even in words like 'assassin'. If I can't write a decent sentence without half of it getting filtered to --in or something similar, it's a reason for me to switch it off. (I'm not even going into the matter of whether or not the word is rude- as a linguist I feel it shouldn't be categorised as such in the first place because of its ambiguous meaning.) The drawback is that it subjects me to such things as gratuitous use of the f-word, the c-word and other things that are rude whichever way you look at it. Support never really answered to this, and my tiny hope that ANet would make a statement or remind people of its rules that abuse is not okay either way has proved to be entirely false.
 * With all that said and the majority of my concerns addressed, I'd just like to say one more thing that's left me quite unhappy- not being told if action is taken or not. I've been called the rudest things for asking a player politely not to rush ahead too far while I was Monking, for asking someone not to be rude in Local Chat or anywhere else where I can read it. I have filed reports, but I know that often enough no action was taken because I could see them online in my Friends-list the next day or days after. Yes, I have tracked some of these random players for a week or so just out of curiosity to see how Support handled my report. I must say I am horrified that someone who called me a 'woman for sale' in much ruder terms more than once in the same conversation, although not using an English word but rather a German word for it, was simply allowed to keep on playing. What bothers me is that Support tells you that 'they will deal with it', and that that is final. Once again, my real world perspective kicks in- if I were raped, I would want to see the person who did it go to prison. I know that there are games that do in fact notify a player who filed a report, and I wouldn't mind if NCSupport did things the same way. It would be a good thing either way- you get peace of mind knowing that this person was punished, or you'd get an explanation of why they weren't punished. Had I received a message that it was perfectly okay for so or so player to call me a woman who sells herself, I wouldn't have bothered with a report the next time someone called me that. If nothing else, it would help ease Support's workload (possibly also because if I'd been told that, I'd not come back to the game at all).
 * Support may deal with things, but not always adequately. Even though I know that they are professionals and that it is sometimes a delicate matter they are dealing with, I believe there is a lot of room for improvement. That's my piece said, I sincerely hope that it was helpful and that at least some of it will be given consideration. There's a lot of concern in the community, and I hope I have clarified them or have otherwise provided reasonable suggestions for improvement. -- Elveh 07:13, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Very well said, Elveh. I would like to point out another view on that. Say somebody is disturbing you with language you find offensive. YOu send a report to Support and they say they will look into it. End of discussion. That is the way it is now, as you know, Gaile. The Privacy things prevent Support from telling you what or if action was taken. But look at it this way:
 * If action was taken, it was deserved to be taken. That player wronged you and violated the rules. If that player did not want to have information like that presented to you, he should never have broken the rules. Furthermore, you now feel more secure, knowing that Support actually DID take action. Trust and confidence in ArenaNet just gained two levels. Please set up your new attribute points. :)
 * Now lets say no action was taken. Informing you that no action was taken will show you that that player was NOT breaking the rules. It will teach you that in this sort of case, the ignore function is there for a reason..... THAT reason. This could also cut down on future reports of a similarly frivolous nature.


 * In my view, I think Support should be in FULL communication with BOTH parties when dealing with reports and blocks. Neither party should be in the dark. ArenaNet has always been communicative with it's player base. Much more so than most other devs out there today, I might add. Perhaps it is time to extend that to the Support Group.


 * As a FINAL point to make, it is my understanding that NCSoft handles the support tickets. Not ArenaNet itself. If this is true, then there may be no point to this discussion of policy. -- Counciler 07:31, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Whoa! Did you just use analogies of rape and murder to help define a computer game support issue?  Of course you have the right to face your accuser or the accused in a public court in matters of rape and murder, because that's a legal matter sanctioned by your state or federal government.  This is a video game, provided by a private corporation, and they can do as they please with it so long as they are comfortable with any losses they may have due to disgruntled players.  Rape and murder might be tough to avoid, I'm sure, but it's pretty easy to avoid immature behavior - ignore the offending player, use the filter (I know, I know, it "used to" filter assassin), disable the channel when you don't want to be bothered, grow a thicker skin if you can, or just stop putting yourself in an environment prone to immature people (online video games).  Support doesn't need to validate these concerns.  They've looked into the specific issue and taken the appropriate actions, and there's little reason to doubt them.  If this were rape and murder, sure, I'd like a little more evidence before taking action.  However, it's not, and they seem to have already gone out of their way to help "the accused".  All this is, is "an immature brat saying a bad word in his cute little video game" while mature adults are running around trying to pamper both sides.  It's silly... --141.154.163.124 08:15, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Although I don't agree with use of the murder/rape analogies i do also have to say that Anet is not exempt as a private business from disclosure, as i discussed above. I do feel that a portion of the chat log in question should be sent to the person that is banned and i also feel that the problems that Gaile raised with this method don't hold much weight on the basis that if someone is going to argue with the logs about 1) their validity or 2) if what was said should warrant the ban, they would be arguing with support anyway even without this proof. This however would put those who either were banned by mistake or those who were genuinely confused as to why they were banned, minds at rest and probably ease alot of the discussion and argument being sent to the support channel. -- Salome 15:09, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * To clarify: rape and murder were not used as examples because of the similarity in severity. They are, of course, much worse offenses than someone getting abusive in a video game. I could have chosen some smaller felony for the example, but that would perhaps have made the point less clear. They were a vessel for the message, not a comparison. -- Elveh 18:20, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Comparing any simple game support issue to any real world crime is just a terrible way to argue a point, regardless of it being a felony or not. Compare it to two kids fighting over a game of TV-tag on the playground, and you may have a solid real-world analogy with "actions and consequences" (detention, not allowed to play on the playground again, etc.)  The criminal analogies are just meaningless in this context.  It's a video game... --Mystisteel 20:12, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * She just said it was NOT a comparison. It was a way to drive the point. -- Counciler 21:28, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * She used a comparison/analogy to "drive a point". She's welcome to scratch her text if that's not what she meant, but that doesn't less of a comparison/analogy. --Mystisteel 21:47, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's just as much a real-world analogy as children in a playground, but I think it's a little more serious than that. Not every case is the same, but you have to realise that sometimes people step far enough out of line that it gets serious enough for potential real-world prosecution. It's not always just someone calling someone a name, it's also cases of deliberate harassment and things like repeated racial slurring that are liable to penalty by law in some countries. I chose the more severe crimes because they're recognisable, but also to draw attention to the fact that some of these cases go far beyond the use of the f-word. I've had my gaming experience thoroughly spoiled on multiple occasions just because someone decided that it was necessary to spam racist messages in Local Chat. That's not child's play. That's something I take very seriously, even if most offenders haven't gone that far. Verbal violence, even if only on the digital plane, can be severe, and can have more impact than just feeling momentarily offended- especially if an attack gets more personal. It might not be the kind of physical violence that puts some people behind bars, but it doesn't mean the impact on the victim can't be severe. At the end of the day, you're still interacting with real people even if they're just represented by pixels, and that makes any misbehaviour real misbehaviour. The matters I have addressed aren't 'simple support issues', they're serious issues. Comparing them to rape or murder might be harsh, but it's more accurate than comparing it to child's play, which would be trivialising the issue beyond recognition. -- Elveh 20:50, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Your beliefs are more certainly your beliefs, but these are definately issues of "child's play". If you want to equate a company's policies towards a video game to a crime, then good for you.  As any child knows, however, "sticks and stone".  In real life, it's much more difficult to walk away from another's language, but in a video game it's pretty easy (you even said so above!)  Turn it off - the language, the chat, or even the game.  I'm only aware of America laws generally, but you appear to be more worldly when it comes to legal ramifications in other countries.  I must ask, in what countries, in which a game is voluntarily bought and sold, in which chat filters and zone chat filters are available, is what Arena.net considered "illegal"?  In what countries would it be considered illegal for another player to verbally assault another player (who is also there by free will with the same filters available)?  I'm just wondering.  These people are breaking video game policies, and should be dealt with as such... --Mystisteel 21:18, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * What does it matter? She didn't say they should be put behind bars. She did not say that it was illegal. Stick to the point please. -- Counciler 21:32, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, and one other thing. Do not use the "turn the filter on or log out" argument. The possibility to do that is indeed there, but using that concept to trivialize this scenario is a fallacy. Verbal harassment is AGAINST THE CODE OF CONDUCT. That means ArenaNet does not approve of verbal harassment, and that it is a perfectly VALID reason to bring it to support. In other words, this is not something that you should be expected to 'walk away from'. If it was, it would be allowed. -- Counciler 21:38, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Careful - that's a slippery slope you're on there. Want to make sure that every single person that breaks the code is banned?  Want a ban for a slip in language (we all do it)?  Want a ban for skinning your adrenaline skills?  Want a ban for sharing your account in an MMO?  Careful what you wish for, you might get it!--Mystisteel 21:43, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Now your putting words in MY mouth! Knock it off... it's starting to get annoying. I never said any of that. Yes, you can get a ban for all of those things. But now that you mention such violations in that manner, this is a perfect example to get back on topic. Let's say you DID get a slip or the mouth, or shared your account info with a family member ingame, or whatever. You ask if your ban was legitimate, and all they say is yes. They fail to tell you exactly what you did, so you have no chance of launching a winnable appeal. They say, "Yes your ban was warranted." so what can you do? Nothing much. But if they said, "You're account was banned for sharing account details with .", you can say, "That person is my brother in real life! Here, look at this . Please let me have my account back!"
 * In that scenario, enhanced communications would be very very useful. -- Counciler 22:34, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You're right. Back on topic.  See below. --Mystisteel 23:05, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, I almost forgot. When you are TYPING, there is no such thing as a 'slip of the tongue'. It's more like a 'slip of specific keystrokes in a specific context'. You chose to type that swear word, and you knew, at least on some level, that it was a swear word and could carry risk. The odds of accidentally typing those specific words are very low. Most people who make cursing-typos (Like typing 'sh**' instead of 'this' or 'hits') are usually able to correct themselves and move on. Support is not so strict to punish for obviously marked typos. So to wrap that point up..... a slip of the tongue is not a valid excuse. Example below:


 * PersonA: sh** is annoying
 * PersonB: haha
 * PersonA: i meant to type this
 * PersonA: oops
 * PersonC: reported


 * -- Counciler 23:01, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I think you need to read. There's no such thing as a slip of the tongue, which is why I said slip in language!  You went off an entire paragraph rant about something that you misconstrued?  Wow.  I mean, really - wow...--Mystisteel 23:03, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * How is that different? Hmm? It's the same concept, and my point still stands. -- Counciler 23:30, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * My...Lord...I'm really getting to know the folks who are having trouble with support, aren't I? You see, a "slip in language" comes when you say something not intended to be offensive (i.e. "Fu**, I died again!), but afterwards may be construed as such by another player just by virtue of the curse.  Yes, even "racial slurs" can be intended as non-offensive depending on who is saying them - just walk down an inner-city street!.  But, wait, what you posted wasn't on-topic, was it?  Hmmmm.... Double standard, methinks. --Mystisteel 23:35, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Well you knew you said the F word and you knew it was not allowed.... so yes. Enjoy your ban. That is... unless you agree with us and can get Support to tell you what you did.... thus giving you a chance to redeem yourself. -- Counciler 23:38, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * But you know I don't agree with you. Someone's account being banned for cause is not the Nuremberg Trial.  If they can better support new, helpful, active players than spending all their time on ban-worthy folks, I'm thrilled!  If /I/ get an unwarranted ban?  I'll take a deep breath, and play something else for a bit.  Jeez... --Mystisteel 23:52, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm, okay then. Just keep in mind that not everybody can just let something like that roll off their backs. Especially when they think is was unwarranted. -- Counciler 00:17, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Mysti, try to not twist every single thing that is said? You're entirely missing the point. The point was to stress the seriousness of the issue. Video games are as much subjected to rules, regulations and legislation as anything else that involves human interaction. Perhaps you have had a blissful childhood or an unusually thick skin, but not everything is 'sticks and stones'. Words can hurt people. Perhaps they haven't hurt you, but try thinking outside your own little box and remember that there are many people around the world who do feel hurt by words. There wouldn't be so many reports of abusive language if they didn't. As I've tried to explain before, there is a bigger picture- a bigger picture that is unfortunately imperfect. I have explained the filter issue before, I will not go into it again other than saying that I already keep my Local Chat off permanently and avoid PUGs for the very sake of avoiding abusive language- often resulting in my playing with a few friends or on my own. Does this not seem strange in a game that was intended as an MMO-variant? I think so. It certainly has greatly ruined my experience of the game, which, I recall, is also something that ANet and NCSoft frown on. Have a look at the Rules of Conduct. If you have had the fortune never to have run into people quite as abusive as some of the people I have met then good for you, but let me make something clear:
 * Going out into a crowded square yelling abusive things is no different from going into a crowded district of any given town and spamming Local Chat with the same words. You (here in general address) may be looking at pixels, but you're still offending and hurting real people. Saying that it is 'just a game' should never be an excuse for such conduct. There is a very clear code of conduct that players are expected to follow, and it is exactly for the reason that you are still interacting with real people. Offenders do hurt people, they do harrass them, and in some cases, had they done this in person rather than in pixels, they might even risk prosecution. Discrimination, for example, is a felony in some countries and this includes countries where Guild Wars is played.
 * Now, to get back on topic- please try not to twist argumentation. Try not to take it farther than whoever said it has, try not to mangle it into something that whoever said it hasn't said, and please, for the sake of sensible discussion, at least try to make an effort to get the point people are making. In case you had missed it, kindly let me clarify- abuse reports, the reason for abuse reports, and the manner in which they are dealt with, are serious concerns. I acknowledge the fact that Support is making a great effort amidst the masses of reports they must be receiving, but I do feel there is room for improvement. The system is far from perfect- on the side of dealing with those who are guilty and the victims of these people as much as on the side of the people who are unjustly banned, few as they may be. These are real offenses, made and suffered by real people, and therefore the issue is serious. Don't let the pixels fool you. Behind that scantily-clad Elementalist is still a human being. -- Elveh 23:31, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Gaile, there's just one thing I want to ask: If the support team checks the log files to legitimate a ban, why are they not able to just copy & paste the sections the banned user said when he asks for it? I mean, even if some then say that it's not true and the log is fake there is a big chance that the user accepts the situation and understands the reason why he got banned. I think this would reduce the work of the support team as they would not need to answer 5 times to the same user because of the same issue with the same repellent comment but just need to copy the part of the log.. poke | talk 22:36, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * yeah he/she has a point there, its not really that hard to do, just highlight ctrl+c then ctrl+v, and it takes at most 10 seconds to comeplete the proccess. certainly a lot less time then typing up a response five times, or checking emails from that player who wants to know why he was banned.Fumetsu 08:06, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I just read this and pondered the question for a bit. I honestly could not think through why we would not just paste in the text. I know that we don't; I am not really sure why we don't, although I just came up with a theory. Anyway, I shot off an email to Support in both North America and Europe just now in order to gain their insights. As I've said before, I'm not an expert on the topic, but I do interface with the teams and I'd like to know what the drawback would be to that level of disclosure.


 * Here's my theory: If someone said really horrendously ugly things, the Support Team might prefer to not repeat that. I mean, if someone uses racial slurs, or sexually harasses another player, would we really want to copy and paste disgusting text back into an email? I'd be really uncomfortable, as a person and as a professional, sending "You called someone %#O*&% and !(*#% and (*&@^ in open chat on Tuesday at Noon," because I'd really rather not repeat the bad stuff. So, an unwillingness to repeat unacceptable comments could be the reasoning behind not disclosing the text, and if that's so, I can sort of see the case for that. However, I think it's definitely a point worth discussing internally, and perhaps even something we can exercise on a case-by-case basis. I assure you, I will be the first to advocate for a policy of greater disclosure if it is at all realistic. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 21:54, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * If they had to read it to place the ban, they've already suffered the discomfort of reading it. If they just paste the text, rather than reformatting it to say "You said x at x time" then it shouldn't be so bad. - B e X  [[Image:User BeXoR sig.gif|iawtc]] 23:17, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I understand, Bex, and you might be right. What I'm thinking is, is it good to repeat it? And I have to say, if I'm going to repeat it, I'm 'definitely' going to reformat it to include words like "You said {this quote} on this date at this time." I'd not want to be pasting without that or someone might think I was the mis-speaker! :) -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 01:59, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I guess that would depend on the format of the logs. If it was in the sort of format that shows names, times and what was said, it would be easy to tell you weren't the one saying it. :P - B e X  [[Image:User BeXoR sig.gif|iawtc]] 02:01, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Support is Doing the Right Thing!
I have to be honest here - there's a lot of complaining going around regarding support, but it appears that these support folks are doing the right thing. While I understand the frustration from players who think they've been "unfairly banned" (sure...), it would be nonsensical to provide feedback to both parties for every single minor dispute that happens in a video game. Sometimes, people just need to grow up, get a thicker skin, turn on the chat filter, turn off the zone chat, stop playing the game, or format their computers. It's a video game! This type of behavior is common to all online gaming, and it's silly to assume that a specific company owes you anything other than the game they sold you (with those filters included at no extra charge). They banned this player, they checked it, and then they checked again! Folks - at what point do we decide that the adults who are running support as their jobs might have more insight into this situation than a kid playing a video game? --Mystisteel 23:11, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I personally think the rate of unwarranted bans is VERY VERY low. Support is quite good at filtering out reasonable bans from unreasonable bans. Still, it's not that far fetched to request more information on why said banned person got that punishment. Sometimes saying, "It was warranted." does not cut it. -- Counciler 23:44, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Unwarranted bans shouldn't be happening at all. Also, families stop playing Guild Wars because of the cursing and such in places. People need to grow up from the opposite side of things. You can convey a message without resorting to personally attacking that person without logic to back it up. —ǥrɩɳsɧ  ƿoɲ  03:24, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Mystisteel: Step into my situation for a moment: You're playing with some friends, you go to sleep, you wake up the next morning try to log into Guild Wars only to find that you can't log in because you're banned. You try emailing support and all you get is the standard copy paste response with a line or 2 of "we checked, you're wrong" and then your ban runs out and you're still sitting there going "I still have no idea what I did wrong and why I was banned for it". I think I have every right to complain, I am not a kid, most of the people I play with are adults and I think that they will agree with me that if you're going to fork out your hard earned money you expect some support when things hit the fan. -- scourge  06:23, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * See below. --Mystisteel 01:50, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I can personally say that Scourge definitely isn't the type of person that would say anything racist. If he says he didn't say anything wrong, then he is one of the few people that I would believe. (The worst thing I have ever seen him do to someone is rick roll them). - B e X  [[Image:User BeXoR sig.gif|iawtc]] 06:54, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * true, banning isnt the only issue. its the overall help that they give out for other issues. its close to no helpful info.Fumetsu 08:20, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If you have some specific details to share, I'm more than happy to hear them. To be honest, saying "Things are bad" just isn't as helpful as giving examples: "I was blocked on this date at this time, and I was told this thing, and I learned this other thing when I emailed (providing email quotes is really helpful)," and so forth. Information like that really helps us find out how things can get better. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 01:56, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, sorry, Fumetsu, that's you. :) I did ask below for information, and frankly I'm not sure if I suggested you send it before, so I apologize for the comment there -- I thought it was about a new or different issue. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 02:03, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Support is Small.... right?
I heard somewhere that Support is comparatively small for ArenaNet. I can't really be sure though, because the size of NCSoft is large enough to have a big support team, but the size of ArenaNet (the managers of bans, I think) is not. So Gaile, how big IS Support? I mean, how much extra can we really expect from them when taking into account their size? -- Counciler 00:34, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't actually have staff numbers for the teams. I know we have at least six groups working on support. That's NA support, EU support, and then things like technical and account support. It's not a huge team, that's true, but it's felt adequate to get the job done. What I'm seeing here on this discussion page are some concerns about policy as well as practice. I do hope to learn more, so I can provide additional information on how things are handled, and why they're handled a certain way. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 01:52, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Guild Wars support.... disapointment.
i was trying to retrieve my account info to change my email and password, and had a lot of help from gaile, but none from the actual support section of the plaync website, guildwars site, or arena.net. i tried emailing them, i got a robotic response of "we care deaply about your problem and are doing all we can to resolve this issue." THEY DIDNT EVEN READ MY EMAIL, then i was given a phone number to call the support line. i was put on hold for an hour, i hung up and tried again.... 3 minutes later i get ahold of someone that sounds promising, 3 minutes after explaining my issue he sends me to someone else, im put on hold AGAIN. and i gave up after a half an hour. It shouldnt be this hard to get help out of support. that IS what they're are being payed to do right? to me if the support part of the company was shut down you would save money and the problems would remain the same... UNRESOLVED. How many people actually had there problems resolved? very few, in terms of percentage of players who needed it. and those people who did get helped by support, how long did it take? and was it worth your hours and hours of time. my rating for support 0 out of 10. bad i know but support is just bad.Fumetsu 08:17, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Hey, Fumetsu, did I ask you before if you could send me the email chain? If not, could you send it to community@arena.net? I can't step into the middle, and it's a Support issue (and I do know they know what they're doing) but mistakes happen and I'd like to read the support email chain and possibly make some suggestions on ways we could improve our responses, our response time, or the outcome of the request for help. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 02:02, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure the automated email is sent as an acknowledgment of receipt of your email. This happens with all support issues; they send that email, and then usually another once it's been read by human eyes. As for waiting on the phone, NCSoft's support has one center to deal with the whole of North America, so having to wait on the line should be assumed. This is the same for any company's support line. Waiting for half an hour can be exhausting, but you have to realize that other people are being helped and you just have to have some patience. I've dealt with support, albeit not over the phone, but I've had nothing but a pleasant experience. Kokuou 05:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * My rating is simlilar to Fumetsu's - their phone support is absolutely terrible. If I waited thirty minutes on hold for any other company, I'd be speaking to the manager about poor customer service; but seeing as its assumed that ANet's customer service is poor, I don't really have anyone to talk to. - Auron 06:25, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Could you please give me the date and time you called (with time zone) so that I can look into this? Thank you. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 07:13, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Well i dont remember the exact of either and i dont think it helps much, but it was 2-33 weeks ago when i was trying to get my password changed, and it was between 12-4pm mountain time.Fumetsu 03:55, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * 2 to 33 weeks ago?! That's a really big range... :D I suppose you meant 2-3. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 06:02, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * yea that lol it was 2-3 xDFumetsu 23:37, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Apology
Gaile, recently I ask you to investigate an "unwarranted" ban place upon me by the support team. After I was unbanned I did some investigating and I believe I have discovered the reason for my ban and it was warranted completely. I would like to apologize for all the trouble I have caused and I would like to thank you for all the help you've given me over the past few days. I would also like to apologize for the rather large can of worms I have opened over at Support Concerns. -- scourge  00:58, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * good work --Cursed Angel [[Image:User_Cursed_Angel_Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 01:00, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I was too hasty in reply, this was meant for Gaile's talkpage. -- scourge  01:04, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for posting. I sure appreciate it. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 01:53, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

It takes guts to acknowledge an error and apologise for the world to read it. Way to go, Scourge, I'm glad you did that and let's hope you'll not do whatever you did again. As for the can of worms- I think it was waiting to be opened, I've seen a lot of Support unhappiness here and elsewhere. It might not be the prettiest criticism, but I think a deal of it at least is helpful. :) -- Elveh 09:49, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Gotta agree. I'm not saying anything... :) --Mystisteel 01:50, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

In-game Gold Transfers
In the past 5 days we have seen 8 of our alliance members banned from game. Each of their cases are the same:
 * They have traded gold internally to another member in the guild/alliance.
 * Within 1 hour they received an Error 045 code for Violation of the EULA and their account is banned for 72 hours
 * They open support tickets / the matters are sent to a GM in support for review
 * Their accounts then become permanently banned - locking them out - so someone can review items on their accounts/characters
 * Their accounts are unlocked and an email is sent to them apologizing for the situation

A few examples:


 * On Saturday, one of our Guild Leaders was collecting donations from their members of the guild for an upcoming guild event. Members donated gold to support a winning prize in the event.  Within one hour, the leader's account was banned.  Reason:  045 - Violation of EULA.
 * On Sunday, we created a new guild in our second alliance. Members donated gold to help pay for funding of GH NPCs.  They raised 385k of gold which was transferred to leader of the new guild.  Within 1 hour his account was banned.  Reason: 045 - Violation of EULA.
 * On Monday, a member traded gold with another member - completing a debt to repay him. 100k was transferred.  Upon completion of transfer the receiver of the gold was banned.  Reason:  045 - Violation of EULA.
 * On Tuesday, a member traded gold with his real life friend who was quitting the game. The friend gave him 200k of gold.  Within 20 minutes his account was banned.  Reason: 045 - Violation of the EULA.

As you know LaZy is a large alliance. We hold several events within the guild throughout the month, including our monthly giveaway events for members (as cited in our Guild of the Week Article, April 2007). In the past 5 days, 2 member-sponsored events have triggered auto-bans for internal gold trade between players. To say the least; this is causing wide-spread concern and even panic. We have our alliance giveaway planned for this Saturday, December 1st and now no one is keen to the idea of receiving prize packages in fear they too will become banned for 72 hours.

I suspect I know what is taking place; auto-trigger bans on those individuals who are receiving large quantities of gold over 90K. Question: since when is the trading of gold between players considered to be an activity that is deemed "a violation of the End User License Agreement"? I realize the efforts to track those who are "buying gold with real money in receipt for in-game gold". However - whatever triggers are being used for auto-ban MUST be reviewed and reconsidered in my opinion. Additionally; banning the members for 72 hours as a result of this trigger is simply wrong in my opinion. Finally, to use the Error Code 045 - Violation of End User License Agreement is just plain incorrect, wrong, and should be immediately changed. The examples of our members being banned ARE NOT VIOLATIONS of the EULA, nor should they have had their accounts banned for 72 hours.

I support the efforts to crack-down violations of the EULA, fully. But I cannot support members being unfairly targeted and banned from game simply because of some auto-ban processes on the servers are looking for "illegal gold buying" and thus consider ANY trade of gold (100k, 200k, 300K, 400k or more) a trigger event. Should no one trade gold any longer? If they do, their accounts will be banned for 72 hours and reviewed by human beings? Are they truly "Violating the EULA" for simply playing the game? We legitimately trade that much gold internally within our guilds. If LaZy Nation needs to change the way we donate funds and award prize packages to our members, in an effort to prevent members from being unfairly banned, please let us know. I really do not want to see any other members banned for changes recently made by NCSoft. Without knowing what the changes are; I cannot prevent members from being banned. HELP! If you can, please raise awareness of our concern to the Support Team at NCSoft. As always, thanks for all you do in representing the interests of the community. Cheers, Mark  Araliuns sun 14:11, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Not to be a jerk, but they could be lying... I've been banned half a dozen times now (got screenies to prove it^^) and I know almost every automated Code=45 message.    Theres a couple Bad Language bans that I've achieved, but I never got pics for them cause I just gave up. =/  Anyway, I don't think they would get banned for opening trade and giving people stuff for free... there would be WAY too many mislead bans than. Hell, you could get banned for getting a run than! Paying the person 1k means you could be banned... no. I think your leader said something offensive or similar... there very strict about that.    PS: Wrong section, >>>>Support section --Ñ ö  Ẋ  ĭ  Ƒ  ý' [[Image:User_NoXiFy_Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 20:24, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Not to devalue your argument there, Mark, but if the ban was just for giving large amounts of money to someone, surely more traders would be getting banned too. After all, they are being paid with values over 100k in both gold and items. That leads me to agree slightly with Noxify, it may not be about the money. [[Image:User-brains12-sigicon5.png|Talk|14px]] br12  • (talk) • 20:27, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * He said afterwards they were contacted by support and the bans were lifted, but not after damage was done. This implies the bans were unwarrented so that cancels out NoXiFy's comments. br12 I think you missed the part where he said it was a trade for nothing, they gave him the gold, like a gold trader would do for a customer, not someone trading an Urgoz bow for 100k. Please read more carefully before replying next time. ~ Anon


 * Apologies, thank you anon. [[Image:User-brains12-sigicon5.png|Talk|14px]] br12  • (talk) • 20:36, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * This has most certainly been happening. Too many people have been getting the same exact error message under similar circumstances. I was the one who collected the money and gave it to a fellow leader of the alliance. I gave him 3 trades, 100k, 100k, and 85k. Not an hour later, he was banned. It's most unfortunate that something like this is being done. An alliance our size is collecting guild wars gold for multiple reasons almost constantly. We don't want to run the risk of having someone win a 100k prize package in the guild and that winner becomes a loser in the sense that.. sure they get the gold, but they have to be banned for 3 days for it. I'm sure you see our concern. Nameless97 21:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Some friends were also. &mdash; Skuld 21:27, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I find it interesting that its the receiver getting banned and not the source of the transfer... - elviondale  (tahlk) 22:06, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This can only mean... THE GOLD SELLERS WORK FOR ANET! :O --71.229.204.25 22:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And you work for tabloids. :P Lord Belar 22:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Your mother. D:< --71.229.204.25 22:42, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ...Wow. Lord Belar 22:46, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Showed you. :P --71.229.204.25 22:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeh, she often causes that reaction.. and not in a good way. &mdash; Skuld 22:48, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * 2 of my former guild members also got banned for a couple of days because of large money transactions. Both are runners and received a large (~200k) payment from a customer, resulting in a ban, which was then removed after a couple of days (I'm not 100% sure about the time since I only heard from this briefly).
 * I have to say that banning first and checking on it later isn't the way to go. Check first, then ban. A wrong ban on a real player is harmful, but waiting for an extra day for two to cofirm a gold seller doesn't harm anyone, since the seller and any buyers will get banned anyway and the gold disappears from the market. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 23:09, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I had my main account and my second account banned firstly for 168 hours then to permenant bans, after contacting support and providing with every peice of info i could, they then unbanned my accounts which i was thankful for, and told me it was an ERROR both times. My main concern is that at no time was i informed as to what it was that caused the ban, i nearly quit GW on the spot, i have been playing GW for 2.5 years with no issue at all then wammo to get taken out without explanation irked me quite alot.124.186.128.195 23:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I just received confirmation from one of the members sited in my examples above regarding his ban. In fact, he was banned for the gold transaction.  More specifically, AFTER the ban was implemented, and he emailed NCSoft Support, he was asked to explain how he received the 200k transfer.  He explained that his real life best friend was quitting Guild Wars.  His friend asked if he wanted the other's gold.  He said yes.  In exchange our member gave his friend access to his Diablo account.  Here is the fun part:  NCSoft Support then says "we consider your exchange an "pay for gold transaction" based upon your input.  Your ban will remain in place for 72 hours.


 * This makes my blood absolutely boil. This is a complete infringement on the member's privacy.  There was no real gold for money transaction involved to the best of my knowledge.  But it sure as heck made me stop dead in my tracks and consider the larger looming issue:  BIG BROTHER IS NOW WATCHING YOU AND WILL BAN YOU FIRST, QUESTION LATER, for playing the game. Has NCSOFT LOST THEIR MINDS???!!!  They are attacking MEMBERS of the GW Community through this action.  More specifically; you are disenfranchising members for playing the game.


 * Our guild offers broker services for our members; players who conduct trading of items on behalf of other players who do not have the technical knowledge or experience to do so. They are entrusted with items; sell those items and then later give the funds of those transaction back to the members who asked for the service.  This is now at risk - and all members can no longer take advantage of the opportunity. Can we assist the NCSoft Team or ANET Team in addressing this issue and partnering with the teams to address our best ideas and concerns? Araliuns sun 23:53, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * This just disturbs me to no end. We move large amounts of money between each other within our alliance, all of it given through the good will of our members, and to know that when we are preparing for events, or rewarding people, some of them could be banned simply for winning a prize, or for donating/receiving a donation makes me sick.  How does this benefit the community?  How does this foster interaction between members of the community?  If this had happened before Oktoberfest, we would have had some issues, since some of the alcohol we got was bought with donations of gold.  How can we be productive in our guilds and leadership if we're banned and unable to play?  I understand completely the need to get rid of gold selling and bots and the like, truly I do.  I dislike them as much as the next person.  But is it right to punish the whole community with one fell swoop and sort out the mess afterward?  Won't it be more likely to drive people away for fear they'll get banned for simple in game gold transactions when they haven't done anything wrong? I think it's time to think long and hard about better ways to deal with this problem.Azhure Sun Soar 00:16, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * This is ridiculous, I am a temporary broker for my guild and sell high end items for other guildmates very often, and am now in constant fear of losing my account due to this ridiculous new ban system, if this continues along the same route I am afraid I will have to discontinue playing Guild Wars (and not buy Guild Wars 2), and about 1000 other people I know will do the same. Please address this issue as soon as possible before the game is ruined. Ichigo Darklore 00:20, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * this thing seems to suck alot, i dont have much gold as i dont farm but does this affect me if i buy or sell ecto or is it only affecting gold transfers and on how high amounts of gold? --Cursed Angel [[Image:User_Cursed_Angel_Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 00:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Come on Arena Net....seriously...you just can't just implement a rule that affects the whole GW Community without telling us such rule(s). If you read the EULA I could NOT find any part that says it is against the rules to give someone 100,000 Gold (100 platinum). I do however understand that Arena Net needs to and is attempting to thwart Online Gold Stores. It is not my job to figure out how to do this without banning the innocent, that is your job Arena Net. You, not us, need to figure out an ENTIRELY new system on how to thwart these Online Gold Stores. Too many innocent players have to deal with a poor and uninformed support team because of this newly implemented "ban-hammer". PLEASE ArenaNet, let the period of common sense come back so that we can enjoy your game and...future games. Elpantybandito 00:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi all, as a loyal active member of the GW community and a member of LaZy, I feel that these unwarranted auto-bans are disrupting everyone when they try to play. I myself to a good deal of farming for high end chests to work on my titles, as a result I have amassed a large amount of gold in the game, it should be my right to spend it on what i want, or give it to my guild/alliance as i see fit.  As Mark stated before, we were raising money for one of our new guilds in our alliance to be able to stock it fully with all the NPC's, which comes to a total of 600k. As i understand it now, someone who is not a member of a guild cannot buy an npc for that guild hall. So when our alliance raised gold for our sister Kurzic alliance we had no option but to donate the gold itself for the leader of that guild to purchase the NPC's.
 * The people in the game that you are really alienating are the generous and helpful members who like to give away gold to new members of the GW community. Yes, i understand that there is a problem with people buying gold on external sites; paying with real world cash, and receiving the gold in game.  We all want that problem to be fixed, but i know we would all rather see 100 gold sellers go free than see 1 legitimate player get banned because he received gold from a friend in the game to buy something like 15k armor, or ectos for fow armor.
 * One of the perks our guild offers is a program where a guild mate will sell your items for you if you don't have time to do it yourself. Then the two people meet back up and the broker gives the gold, minus his broker fee of 10%, to the guild/alliance mate.  in some cases this gold total has come to over 100k+.  In this case, we are left open to be banned for receiving a large sum of gold, and it appears as if we are getting in game gold after we pay for it on an external website.
 * As it stands now, i have no option but to stockpile the gold that i accumulate, but i even fear to do that in the event that Anet decides to start banning accounts with a large sum of gold in their storage, assuming that they are gold sellers waiting to complete a delivery. I personally like to have a large amount of gold on hand, so that if i see a high end item that i "must" have i can buy it then and there.
 * I want to know what our options are, as a very honest guild/alliance that holds its members to a very high standard, and do not condone buying gold online by any means from a pay site, we are all in fear of participating in large transactions if it means we will be subject to banning. Please tell us what we should do to keep our accounts from being banned and still being able to participate in our monthly guild/alliance give-a-ways. --Godess Vesta 00:37, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * This also worries me for donating funds to my alliance, and often lend gold to friends and family. I don't want to be paranoid and fearful when I'm doing nothing wrong. I don't understand how ANet can justify their current system of detection. I understand the need to prevent gold sales, but with members being banned when they're doing nothing wrong, this just cannot continue. Matty 00:42, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * What if you instead of banning accounts, prevented a player from trading or dropping items while you review their accounts? Would this not be a more fair solution, if nothing else, they could continue to play with a lesser degree of interruption if they are a normal player, they could continue their normal activities and Guild/Alliance responsibilities until such time the issue has been resolved. While this would affect normal players, but not to such an extensive degree, this would destroy the world of the gold sellers as it would prevent their purpose, whilst not being 100% fool-proof, it would if nothing else balance the penalty for those who are playing fair and those who are cheating. Matty Matty 00:42, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I have yet to make a large money trade not having earned such an amount but it I ever get that much money for an honest reason and get banned that does not seam fair. As part of LaZy alliance I like to help my friends and allies and don't wish to become banned for helping them with any such money transfers that may help them buy a rare item, a guild service, or any other item when in time they pay me back. I know your goal is stop illegal gold purchases for people using real money for game money and I plus many in Lazy would love to help you if we only knew how. Please contact us and let us know how we can help ban those who cheat and not ban those who are honest. I myself earn my money the hard way and hate those who cheat so let us know how to to help you keep this game fun and fair and keep the bad out. I may be repeating myself here so please contact our leader and help us help you. Thanks, Mike


 * How can I take advantage of the guild broker service and not fear my account being banned? How can I encourage members to take advantage of the service and not be banned?  More importantly how can I with a clear conscious ask members to donate gold for guild giveaways only to watch their guildmate who receives the 100k prize package get banned for 72 hours?!?  And most importantly… how can I sit back and watch a company based in the United States blatantly ignore one of our basic rights as human beings “innocent, until proven guilty”  Just wondering…  Mischevious Pup(aka Erin)


 * I would like to give my cousin 100K. He just started playing the game and I want to give him a head start. How am i supposed to do this now without fear of being banned? ANET needs to think of a better way to BAN the gold sellers. This is like useing an Nuclear Weapon to Swat a Fly! -- Lothlorien


 * Being automatically banned my computer system for any reason without reviewing every thing that has gone on with this current situation, be it someone trading 100K or any other violation of the EULA is ridiculous and unjust. Everyone that has purchased in this game has purchased it to play without fear of being watched or being banned for normal gameplay.  A computer system cannot make a judgment call, and it is completely unbiased and whether the trade was legitimate or not it will take action and ban anyone for no less than 36 hours and usually if you are banned it will most likely not be able to resolve this issue with the plate and see support staff because of the way they review each case.  My God I forgot my plaync account password and it took over a month for them too validate my information.  So if you get banned once for 36 hours expected to stay banned for 36 hours.  And it seems to me that in some special circumstances as in a person that plays multiple games with multiple individuals trading items in one game will not be allowed.  Example say you play another game with a friend and trade your friend an item for 200K guildwars gold when he trades you 200K your account most likely will be banned for no less than 36 hours.  Now that's not the problem here how are you to prove that the trade was legitimate can you show plaync the other virtual item traded from a different game or are they going to take your word for.  And if they suspect the trade was illegal even though it wasn't you lose your account.  My question is why not ban the accounts of individuals who trade excess of amounts of gold over short periods of time.  Example character1 has traded 3 million platinum in a two day period that account should be suspected of selling gold and that account should be banned and review for permanent ban.  Unfortunately that's not what is being done, what is being done is your guilty of buying or selling gold regardless the situation your guilty until proven innocent your banned for 36 hours until your trade can be proven to be legitimate and in the case a cannot be proven your guilty even if it was a trade one item on a different game is that violating the EULA.  Are you not able to use your guildwars gold freely even if you farmed it legitimately.  What's next you will no longer be able to farm in fear of being banned because you have made an excess amount of gold or your repeated actions are going to be perceived as a bot and a computer system is going to ban you automatically for 36 hours for normal gameplay.  I admit that the buying and selling of gold is a problem unfortunately legitimate players are going to be penalized for these actions.  And in my opinion it someone wants to spend their money on buying gold so be it.  It is their money to spend on a virtual item and if they wish to waste it then it is their option.  The individuals who set up bot's and buy 50 accounts for the sole purpose of farming gold and then sending its individuals who want to buy can't really be stopped.  Unfortunately does is seen like guildwars cares about the individuals who legitimately played a game.  We must all stand together and stop being victims this is our game we purchased it and we should be able to play it without fear of being banned for normal gameplay and as long as we are within the guidelines of the EULA.  And trading one gold or 100,000 gold is part of normal gameplay and we should be guilty before proven innocent it should be the other way around.


 * Hello, I have been playing GW almost since it's conception and have all the campaigns as well as the bonus items/expansion/bonus mission pack and 10 characters with 2 slots yet to be filled by more mules, of those filled 1 is my main character that I have played since I started playing GW another character is my farmer(my money maker)and the rest being my mules who hold any loot/items I may be stockpiling to resell or help my fellow guildies of LaZy who may be in need or donating towards events held by LaZy. At times I may have 500K+(now not being one of those times{:Þ) from my dealings, lately I have been working on my titles not concerned about in-game gold, now that my funds are dwindleing I will soon revert back to farming for my gold and such. My idea on the problem(botting for GW gold selling sites)is this; can't code be implemented that detects the use of macros(a violation to the EULA) which is VERY EVIDENTLY used if one where to watch the activities in areas such as Bergen Hot Springs and Droknar's Forge just to name 2 instead of targeting those who are recieving gold.Im Mudbone 03:03, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

There has been a glitch in the bot and gold-sale tracking systems that caused some erroneous blocks on accounts. What happened was someone moved gold in such a way as to trigger alerts and cause a support team member to place a short-term block on the account for presumed gold buying. (The fact that this glitch is in the gold buying detection system is why the receiver of the gold was nicked, rather than the person passing on the gold, who might be a presumed seller. Sellers are found through a separate-but-related means of detection, and if they were also erroneously banned, their appeals will be heard and the situation will be righted as promptly as possible.)

Obviously, some of the blocks have been accurate. We have found quite a number of players were in fact purchasing in-game gold for real-world case. However, there have regrettably been errors, too, and we're going to investigate that very seriously right away. Do note, though, that the action of blocking a gold purchase itself, and of blocking the accounts of those involved in the buying (shorter term block) or selling (account termination) if the action was properly conducted, would be fully supported by the User Agreement, which stipulates that one can neither buy nor sell gold, accounts, or in-game items.

I'm having trouble believing that someone who appealed a three-day suspension was subsequently permanently blocked. I'd need to see the actual email exchanges to understand why that happened. Send the entire support ticket exchange to community@arena.net and we can look into that.

Exchanging in-game gold for property, like a game account, is similarly disallowed. So yes, that block was absolutely justified and appropriate, just as it would be to exchange in-game gold for a pair of shoes or a pogo stick.

And a plea: When one is posting on behalf of a guild or alliance, please restrict the posts to a single contributor. Please do not encourage others to fill the thread with similar or identical complaints. Doing so does not help reach a resolution to the matter and in fact it dilutes the discussion and delays a response. Please use a moderate tone in the commentary that is offered, resist the urge to use all caps or excessive hyperbole, and allow us a reasonable amount of time to resolve the issue and/or respond to the matter before posting again. As I have shown, we will do both, but must be allowed sufficient time to undertake that. There are more than 4,500 words in this thread, and that's far, far more than are needed to make the report, state the concern, and ask for (even courteously demand ;) ) a resolution. Thank you for understanding. -- Gaile 04:01, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I know it goes without saying, but in my effort to give a precise and detailed answer, I forgot to make it very clear that we are very sorry for the inconvenience and the concerns that the erroneous blocks caused to any of the players who were impacted. We'll take making amendments to the system very seriously, and I know that is being looked at as a priority. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 04:44, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much for the quick and detailed answer. I'll let my friends know that it was a bug in the software. :) -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 07:53, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you Gaile. This was a hot-button issue and I am pleased to read your detailed response and will pass it along to our members in the LaZy community. I still have a lagging concern as to how this "bug" lingered for so many days without alarms going off internally but if it was newly implemented code I could see that it took time to understand there could be a potential bug causing overzealous identifications.  In regards to the permanent ban, to my knowledge no one who I used in my examples was permanently banned from game during the past 5 days; just 72 hours.  I will honor your request for any future posting of concerns that I may have.  As I tell our guildies in LaZy; "A slice of humble pie a day is good for the mind, heart, body and soul.  It reminds us that we are human and nothing more".  Myself included.  PS - our charity fund raising drive for "Make a Wish Foundation" has raised $300 in 10 days, we have 30 days to go.  :)  Again, thanks for the response - keep up the great work!  Cheers, Mark   Araliuns sun 13:39, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Game Glitch?
Hello Gaile,

I am a GM of one of the LaZy Guilds Citadel of Faith, and am currently experiencing some concerns with a possible in game glitch. We are this Saturday Celebrating one of our guilds birthdays. I have been massing donations from members to throw a huge celebration. I am currently coming to the limits on my account for storing this gold. In the past couple days I have lost 100k in two separate incidents.

In the first incident I went out just killing stuff solo, and while there in my inventory I had 100k on me. I believed that I just wouldn't receive any gold while in the explorable area. Apparently I was able to attain over 100k on my person(but did not come to this conclusion until later). After that I logged off completely due to a computer update requiring me to restart my system. When I logged back in to Guild Wars all I had on that character was 400 something gold. I assume this was the amount I had attained while in the explorable area. This happened approximately at 11-1PM Central time on Tuesday 11-27-07. I did not immediately report this incident because I believed you guys had enough on your hands, and did not want to bother you.

Yesterday though at 3:30 Central Time 11-29-07 I encountered another incident in which I was exchanging gold from my character to my storage. I was trying to level off my storage which had somewhere around 97 Platinum. I deposited a bit too much and it went over 100k. I then accidentally closed my storage, and when I opened it back up I had only the amount that was over the 100k left. I am begging you please can you help me. This matter would not really bother me if it were my own gold, but this gold is gold that many other dedicated people have worked very hard to accumulate for our guilds birthday bash this Saturday. I have a support ticket with NCSOFT Question Reference #071129-003106. I hope you might be able to assist me in this issue. Thank you very much for your time, Ill Armageddon Ill 20:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You have submitted a support ticket, which is absolutely the right thing to do. I regret that I cannot assist you with this matter, but I know that Support will do so the best of their ability. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 20:47, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The responses I have received from NCSOFT lead me to believe that they think I may have either been scammed, account hacked, or is "an error that is human related". I assure you that none of these are the case. I truly believe there is a glitch in the game, if you wish I would not mind attaining 100k and demonstrating the truthfulness in my claims. I believe the issue has come to a close with support, and am wondering if they have so much on their hands at this time concerning other issues that they are just brushing me off. Even if I am unable to reattain my guild's loss I would still like to see this error in the game fixed so that no one else will have this problem in the future. Thank you for your quick response, Brandon aka Ill Armageddon Ill 21:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * NCSoft Support or ANet support? NCSoft doesn't manage Guild Wars, they just publish. - [[Image:User HeWhoIsPale sig.PNG]] HeWhoIsPale 22:01, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * NCsoft provides customer support for ArenaNet games. So this would be Guild Wars support, as provided by NCsoft. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 02:25, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * What puzzles me is that I am hearing that I may store 1000 Platinum in the Xunlai(Storage), so what could have happened but a game glitch? If I placed just a bit over 100 Platinum in storage there shouldn't have been any problem... Might this have anything at all to do with the problems this week in the above topic??


 * From what I am gathering I have no hope of attaining this gold back and am really disappointed. I guess all I have to hope for is that someone can figure out what happened, and stop this from happening again. Sincerely, Brandon aka Ill Armageddon Ill 22:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Here's what I'm guessing happened. The game glitched, letting Brandon there have more than 100k on him.  Then, the next time he triggered an event that caused the game/server to calculate his amount of gold, it hit an error because he had more than the maximum allowable amount and rounded the whole amount down by 100k.  Not really all that implausible, considering the other thing that happened due to the update (lol free chest) --71.229.204.25 22:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Gaile, Is it possible to have an account glitch. I got to thinking that this is not the first time I have seen the storage problem with my account. Once a long time ago I had the same thing happen I lost 100K in a similar incident. At that time I was new to the game, and never thought much of it. I am currently scared to try to push to putting over 100K in Xunlai Storage if it will result in another loss that I can not re-attain the funds. Gaile if your out there is there any way I might have this tested or any suggestions?
 * If this was a game glitch, we would have had thousands of reports by now. As for an account glitch, that seems highly unlikely, but because we don't brush things under the carpet but engage in careful research, The Support Team has forwarded the report to the QA Team, and they'll look into it. If they have questions, they'll get in touch. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 03:33, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I tried this evening to deposit more than 100k in my storage this evening, and when I closed and reopened it it was still there. So I am unsure what might have caused this problem still. Thank you again for your time, Brandon aka Ill Armageddon Ill 18:59, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, I will let Support and QA know that things seem to be functioning properly. They'll make a note, I'm sure, in case this is reported by anyone else. (So far, it has not been.) I'm real glad to know that it's sorted out, and thanks for posting to keep me up to date. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 02:18, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Gaile I would like to thank you and support for continuing to work with me on this issue. Again thank you for your time, Brandon aka Ill Armageddon Ill 04:04, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Info on Support and Blocks
As you may be aware, we have several levels of Support, and teams on three continents. Usually our support system works very well. Occasionally, the system develops a glitch. Recently there were some erroneous actions taken against players who were thought to be involved in the purchase of in-game gold for real-world money. (See In-Game Gold Transfers above.) We are deeply regretful for that error and we are taking steps to assure each case is fully resolved.

I thought it might be interesting to provide some background on the process of investigating and actioning accounts of those involved in gold sales:

It is a breach of the User Agreement to (1) sell Guild Wars gold, (2) transfer, deliver, or hold gold for sellers, (3) help with gold sales in other ways, such as advertising gold-selling sites, or (4) purchase Guild Wars gold. Some time ago, we decided that in order to protect the integrity of the game we needed to start actioning gold sellers and the network that they support. We realized that they had developed, and continue to develop, very clever ways of masking what they are doing. They spend a lot of time assessing what we are doing and what we are looking at. They hope that if they change things up, we will not be able to identify them and ban the account with which they're making money. For instance, we will set certain parameters for investigating an account. If the gold sellers are able to discern what those parameters are, they will simply change their processes to avoid falling into that category.

It helps all of us players to have gold sellers removed from the game. It preserves the economy and retains the fairness of the gameplay system itself. In order to retain a sound economy, we set up research processes that help identify gold sellers and other members of the gold selling networks through specific in-game actions and activities. A few of our top programmers wrote code that pulls a lot of data about players -- where they go, how they play, what they buy and sell, how they trade, and so forth. The programs look at many data points across the many accounts active in a given day and, if there are a number of actions, behaviors, or processes on a list of things often associated with gold selling, that account is flagged. While it might be easy to think Support then just "hits the switch" and bans that person, they do not do that. Instead, a support team member does more intensive research, pulling specific information at greater detail about the account that was initially flagged through the reports. The account is reviewed and, based on about 20 or 30 different parameters, the account is then either actioned or not actioned.

Recently, in order to expand the effectiveness of the actions they are taking against the gold selling networks, support team members started looking beyond those who sell, advertise, or transfer gold to those who buy it, as well. And that's where the error crept in. I can't go into details. It would be downright foolish to reveal "These are the data points we look at in figuring out if you're a bot or a gold seller" because that might furnish the gold selling profiteers with a means to avoid getting caught. Let me just say that when support started looking at gold buyers, they made some errors in how they viewed the data and they appraised a few players as being involved in disallowed activities when in fact they were not doing anything disallowed at all.

The bottom line is that we asked support to halt the newer types of blocks while the process of reviewing all the collected game data is given a thorough appraisal. Some types of accounts associated with gold sales are still being blocked -- because they can and should be and because the action does not pose a risk to legitimate players. Some accounts involved in gold purchases will still be blocked if certain parameters are met. But we're going to take a good look at the process and define a better system of identifying accounts that truly need to be actioned and separate those from others who are not involved in illicit activities at all.

Again, we apologize to those who did get blocked, and we want to hear from you via the support system so that we can clear up that error. In the meantime, I hope this is helpful information, and I will share additional details if they become available. -- Gaile 07:43, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Banned
Hello Gaile, i have no idea why but my account was suspended only for 72 hours and i asked them why. Instead of an explanation they banned my account for life. Instead of providing evidence of what i have done they punished me for life? How is that fair? My character name is Vierna Mizzrim and my account name is kgyore@yahoo.com which is also my email address. Please, if you can help me look into this because i dont know if they banned me for a reason or i am a victim of an administrative mistake. I would not like to think that all my time invested into this game was wasted. Sincerely yours kgyore

Reporting help
Hey um, I tried to report this one person because his name was highly inappropriate, and when I clicked the button, it said I reported someone, but it was the wrong name, who's name wasn't wrong at all. I had her targeted so I didn't know it would report whoever i targeted. I'm afraid of being banned because I have a hard time changing my password, mainly, I can't because somehow i cant get my account to work for that weird site since i cant do it in the game, and If i can't get that to work, how am I to prove that my account is mine when I ask Anet to un ban me. I worry about this because I kept hearing, every time a guildmate or friend had troubles, they had to prove the account was theirs with something, most likely something I threw away a long long time ago.

So my question is this, with one mistake (and its obvious because of the option I chose) will I be banned or just frowned upon? Ajc2123
 * I did the same thing on Halloween. I tried to report someone who popped in and started using racial slurs. I typed in the name, hit enter, and next thing I know there's a message on my screen saying I just reported Gaile Gray for verbal abuse. Oops. I never got banned. And Gaile, sorry about that, it was an honest mistake.--Pyron Sy 22:39, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * *gasp!* That was you? Only kidding, no harm, no foul. ;) -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 21:09, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well how come whenever I try to add keys to the play NC account (to change my password since I cant do it ingame) It says invalid code. How do I link my play NC account to my guild wars account >_< This is way too confusing. Ajc2123
 * PlayNC checks the code to see if its new. Since it's already been activated, just go through the in-game store to set up a plaync account.--Pyron Sy 22:44, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * U can type the name after the report command, true there is more typing but at leadt u can't mistake. Example /report Mage Montu. MageMontu 22:53, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thats what I did, I typed his name after it, BUT i had another person targeted by accident so it reported that person. Ajc2123
 * Yes, the report function will go after who you are targeted on, rather than who you type in, which is a bit screwed up in my opinion.--Pyron Sy 00:21, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
 * OMG why can't I just email them, They made this way too hard for a game. Please let GW2 be much much more simpler for account protection.Ajc2123
 * I'm sorry about your concern. The "point and report" is in place so that people can be reported even if you do not "own" their language character set on your computer. For instance, an Asian player may not have English-language characters on his system, but if he needs to report the player, he can select and report, without struggling to make out the characters. And of course the same works in reverse, as well.
 * The names -- and names only -- you can write a special email address we have set up for that purpose: reportname@arena.net. You can submit the offensive name -- character or guild -- and we will relay it to the Support Team. We are (well, most are ;) ) on winter holiday break now, so it may take a few days to block the name, if it is found to be offensive within the guidelines we maintain, but it will be addressed. And for all other issues, such as spamming and so forth, you should use the "select and /report" system. Thanks. -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 20:13, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This shows my complete noobness, but how does one select a player whose name appears in chat? Clicking on it just seems to whisper them. I don't fancy running round half of Kaineng city trying to find the spammer to click on.Cassie 11:58, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I hold down "Ctrl" and look around, then select that person. However, since that's sort of difficult at times, you can also simply type in the name, being sure you do not currently have another player selected. I wonder -- maybe it would be good to have a confirmation? A "Do you mean to report (name of person)?" after that you click, "yes" or "no?" That may not be possible because of programmer time or the complexity of the required code, but I will ask about it if you think it would be helpful.
 * Please do keep in mind that no one is actioned without confirmation. If you make an error, it's not as if "Oops, I just typo'd and someone is now out of the game for days!" The Support Team will pull chat logs and verify the reported issue, whether that's spamming, abusive chat, or the other things about which a /report can be sent. And while it's true that Support would be forced to action those who submit false reports, they would not do that for the rare typo or the inaccurate name choice. There's a level of forgiveness in the system. :) -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 21:09, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Gaile, my worries have all gone away. I also finally got my PlayNC account back and now I can change my password regularly for security reasons. While at first I was aggrivated, they were actually really helpful and professional on their end, And if you ever talk to them, Please give em a thank you for being so supportive lol.Ajc2123
 * I sure do appreciate the update, Ajc2123, and I'm happy that everything was resolved for you. I'll be delighted to pass along your kind words when we have our next conference call -- it's great to be able to share such messages. :) -- Gaile [[Image:User gaile_2.png| ]] 21:13, 26 December 2007 (UTC)