Talk:Shadow Form/Archive 1

Anet is incompetent
This skill is designed exclusively to be abused. Invincible solo sins (via Deadly Paradox) in the arenas winning series of games because the other teams give up is utterly broken gameplay.--Mont 11:09, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed...Every time aNet releases a skill update without adressing utterly broken skills, in order to make insignificant changes (I'm sure the Corsairs are very happy with their Rust buff), they lose credability.

skills that can hit through shadowform
riposte,deadly riposte,gladiators defense,aftershock,bed of coals, churning earth,crystal wave,tenai’s crystals,tenais wind,lightningtouch,shock,whirlwind, sliverarmor,inferno,lavafont,choking gas,spike trap,flame trap,barbed trap,dust trap,piercing trap,vipers nest,ignite arrows,aura of thorns,aura of holy might,chilling victory,dust cloak,grenths aura,grenths fingers,heart of holy flame,mystic sandstorm,mystic twister,zealous renewal,zealots fire,reversal of damage,bane signet,signet of judgement,shield of judgement,symbol of wrath,barbed signet,dark aura,necrotic transversal,poisoned heart,putrid explosion,signet of agony,signet of sorrow,suffering,touch of agony,unholy feast,vampiric bite, vampiric touch,vampiric swarm,vile touch,chiblains,wallows bite,well of the profane, blackout, illusionary weaponry,leech signet,signet of clumsiness,signet of disenchantment,signet of disruption,signet of distraction,signet of humility,ancestors rage,cruel was daoshen,disenchantment,grasping was kuurong,lamentation,vengeful was khenhei,vengeful weapon,iron palm,viper’s defense,entangling asp,expunge enchantments i believe thats around 75^

i think i might have missed a number of skills but my point is.. it doesnt make people immortal.. just alittle harder to kill, also it is very hard to perma shadowform now, it requres perfect timing within a half of a second, imo its one of the few builds that actually requres skill to use. just because people cant figure out the timing, they Q_Q because they cant get the timing down and ask for this to be nerfed, please actually try using this, btw this skill is worthless in pvp because there is soo much that can hit through it,has anyone actually tried using it in RA, AB, or HA? --Arrythmia 16:40, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

its intended for sins, the immortaly period to pull off a spike, works well if you can shadow step out of danger, and the timing is 19(exact from frist shadow form) 25 from 2nd(echoed) in the 6 seconds you have to recast AC and DP, then the recharged shadow form, and switching into a non enchat mod, then a +20% mod, its really hard to do anything else, when your perma all you focus is on energy and timing, if you are perma in RA or TA or HA and you are and Average to good, you can mantain, maybe less than 20 min, if you are a super adicct who practices 4-5 hours a day shadow forming maybe 2-3 hours, bythat time other team resigns of couse, and you win, most ppl fall under average lvl of gameplay, so this skill is a waste of time, youll get ignored while they slaughter your team, then you LAG, or mess up on seconds SF you are out for 20 seconds with 53hp, why are ppl so against this skill, ppl use it to farm, and in RA and TA it poses no prblem, in HA patience is key, just target and wait till they mess up, and you win 66.189.192.56 00:10, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

description
description updated to fit latest update.

hahahahahaha it was an april fools joke ! 66.233.201.54 19:26, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Imbalanced
Come on ArenaNet, even you must realize what's going on. Arcane Echo + Shadow Form + Deadly Paradox = the invincible Assassin. And I mean truly invincible.

How long has this been around and you still haven't fixed it? Come on Arenanet. All you have to do is make it so that Arcane Echo will not work on Shadow Form. Or even make Shadow Form a skill as opposed to a spell so that it is not affected by Arcane Echo. Seriously guys, this has been around forever. Get on the ball.
 * They cant make it a skill because then there would be absolutly NO way to remove it. except it ending.
 * It's something called Enchantment Removal. Strip it and they're DEAD. Think! -- kaheiyeh 01:23, 2 October 2007 (UTC) -- so, you want this to be a skill, or an enchantment. Maybe YOU should think: All enchantments are spells.
 * It's you who isn't thinking. You can count how many skills can remove Shadow Form on one hand. The only ones that come to mind to me are Signet of Disenchantment which drains all your energy and Chilblains which requires a close range but has a high cost, as well as sacrifice and poison.Neither of which are very durable to be carried just in case a Shadow Form assassin shows up.RitualDoll 20:27, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Why would you want them to remove it! It is the best way to do alot of things in game.

umm hello guys? i think what your looking for is for it to be changed to a STANCE now stop arguing and let the sins be invincible, they are too squishy without it

Shadow Form is the cheapest skill around, removing it would be the best nerf ever made. The BEST.
 * Yeah...but the problem is people are abusing in PvP and if they nerf, PvE builds will suffer as well. One of the most innovative farm builds for farming greens and tomes involves shadow form and elemental skills, and if they nerf this the PvE players will suffer too. This is a common problem with these instances; a skill becomes overpowered in pvp and Anet nerfs it, solving the pvp problem (for the moment) but crippling pve players using that skill as well. --Warior kronos 22:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Haha this is funny. Sins need Shadow Form!! If not they would suck! Anyways I would always prefer Temple Strike over Shadow Form most of the time. How often do you see these invisible sins in Pvp?

Hmm, maintaining Shadow Form, while attacking and actually doing anything worth while? Hardly anything to worry about. Just use Touch Skills, AoE, and Traps. Expunge Enchantments anyone? Pretty sure it's a touch skill. Unreal Havoc  20:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

"How often do you see these invisible sins in Pvp?" lol.--Renegade 21:05, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Not enough to be bothered by them and 9/10 times in PVP they fail anyway. Unreal Havoc  21:08, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

It isn't a problem in PvP, its a crappy build with low damage output. The only time i've ever seen matches won by shadow-formers is the WM (or EvIL? I forget, damn its been a while..) first one in that tourney, and that can be outplayed. Stupid skill, bad design, but not really a problem. &mdash; Skuld 21:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, stop listing near-useless niche-counters, you're just embarrassing your selves. &mdash; Skuld 21:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Niche? Nothing funnier than using Barbed Trap on a Shadow Form Assassin. ;) Expunge Enchantments is one of the few direct skills you can use to remove it too. Unreal Havoc  21:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Real problem with this skill is RA, where you can easily end in a team without a proper enchantment removal (mostly because most skills that work with SF are class/expansion restricted, and you may end with a necro who only owns prophecies by example, or with a non-trapper archer). It's not really a "winning build" but more like a "griefing build" (specially since perma-SF sins only run around all the time wasting everyone's time).--Fighterdoken 21:22, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I've not come across a Shadow Form Assassin in RA yet to be honest. Unreal Havoc  21:27, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, they breed in alliance battles and fort aspenwood --Cursed Angel 20:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I was monking for one in RA today... he neglected to tell me he was using it, charged into the centre of them, it ran out and he died. We lost. :( Ale_Jrb  ( talk ) 23:32, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I liked this skill better before the multiple nerfs to shadow form... i miss being able to win 4vs1 in RA QQ 23:30, 1 January 2008 (UTC)~
 * does protective spirit or bond stop the health drain, thats more than 10% by a single effect or spell, unless ur at like 50hp?Death last hope 22:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Last I knew Shadow Form was a PvE utility, not something worthy of PvP. I could be wrong.-  Vanguard  22:47, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a picture of the longest HA match I've been in:



We massacred 7/8 of the opposing party in under two minutes, but only one assasin with deadly paradox, arcane echo and shadow form just couldn't be killed! I'm a mesmer with enchantment strippers, diversion and interrupt - but there was hardly a fraction of a second for me to cast in. I think this skill is very unbalaned, since it's the only continous farming build without counter. (unless perhaps knockdown, but that's not as evident as enchant strippers or interrupts) We finally won because the assasin made a mistake or had lag. Karasu (talk) 18:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

And also I have experienced a complete team with Shadow Form assassins that maintain the skill with Arcane Echo and Paradox. This is serious abuse that must be stopped. A top guild like "What's going on [sup] MUST KNOW that they are abusing and I seriously think people can get banned for this!!! Izzy, CHANGE QUICKLY! Here is another sreenshot, the opponent had 7!!! A/Me!!! http://www.imageno.com/sle3wa9smbeepic.html (I deleted all names)86.82.36.54 16:03, 17 January 2008 (UTC)).


 * ha, you make me laugh...big deal. he used 3 skills in the game that syncronize well. he didnt use "'lite computer hacking skills, or use a wierd glitch, he used his brain, that figured out that if you have 33% reduced recharge of a skill + 2 of that skill, he could keep shadow form up forever. lastly, you are a complete idiot if you think people should get banned for this. you are basically saying this /little baby voice "izzy...dat mean man wont die, he is used his brain in pvp, thats cheap and mean, kill him." pathetic
 * It isn't hacking, it's just analyzing the skills and coming up with what you think is the most effective means of using them.64.180.184.69 18:04, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I know this is really old, but I was reading through here, and when you said it would be the 'BEST nerf' dude, surely you're joking. Or mentally handicapped. Anyone who played the game for at least three years remembers the good old 101 build. I helped make that monster! I would really like to point out, you simply need to wrap your minds around a new way to kill the dudes faster than they kill you! This happens every frellin' time a bunch of players whine about a new combo someone made, WHICH IS A STROKE OF GENIUS!, because their precious Warrior can't smash them.... [Sept. 14, 2008 4:56am EST]

Skill re-work
I think a change to this skill is in order for it to lose it's griefing status, but have some use other than greifing. Here goes:

5/1/30 ''For 5..10 seconds, 75% of all attacks against you are blocked, and you cannot be the target of spells. When this Enchantment ends, you lose all but 5..50 health. This enchantment ends when you are healed over 50..80% of your maximum health.''--Skye Marin 16:27, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * How would you be healed if you can't be the target of anything?-  Vanguard [[Image:User-VanguardAvatar.PNG]] 00:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * And I'd say a bit underpowered then.-- MP47  (Talk) (Contr.) 00:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Self-only spells, healing signets, etc. - [[Image:User HeWhoIsPale sig.PNG]] HeWhoIsPale 16:06, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Instead of asking to nerf Shadow Form to oblivion, why don't you people ask to nerf Deadly Paradox?

Now I don't know if this would have a major impact on the PvP side, but I'm pretty sure it's effect on PvE would be a lot less then hitting Shadow Form with the nerf bat. Kyuuzo

Shadow Form is used in many assassin farming builds in PvE, the real answer is to stop the SF abuse without ruining it for assassin players in PvE. Simply nerf Deadly Paradox it so it won't affect elites. RadaArashi 22:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I posted this in the underpowered section. But, I'd like to post it here too: (Change to skill or stance or something like that) 5/.25/10 "All your enchantments are removed. For 0..6(at 16 shadow arts) seconds you are effected with Shadow Form. While Shadow Form effects you spells against you fail and attacks against you miss. Shadow form ends prematurely if you use a skill or attack. 50% Chance of failure with 4 or less critical strikes Jigoku 16:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

This Elite is very overpowered. To nerf this, just change this from spell type to skill type. The only other way to do the same abusing combo(when is a skill only and not a spell) is to Arcane Mimicry a Echo from a ally, in which case, Arcane Mimicry must recharge when its done copying. Or like Jigoku said, ending it prematureley with/or a chance of failure.--ShadowFog 19:52, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Already someone suggested to be change to a skill or to a stance. Sorry about the redundant. From what I understand, about revoming enchantments, Well of Profane(affects all, it doesnt target),Chiblains, Winds of Disenchantment, Grenth's Aura(doesnt target),Rending Aura. So a Dervish and/or a Necromancer needs to be used.--ShadowFog 21:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

QQ "We haz 7 obsiflamez and can't kill a sin because our offense is only anti-legoway!", HA players take counters or stop whining pls, even IWAY with NR/tranq wins Shadowform. If you lose in buildwars, get over it and re-enter or quit Heroes Ascend. About SF on Random Arenas...just kill the 3 other guys from opposing group, /sit 5mins and auto-win? 137.163.16.66 09:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Well what I think is that it requires alot of energy to use it now, think about it, 10 energy for SF, 15 energy for Arcane Echo, 15 for deadly paradox. Thats like 40 energy to start with.
 * failure at lees than 4 crit strikes wtf, that not even linked, not like a Me/A gonna use it with a 16 sec duration, cant be maintanined66.233.201.54 23:48, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

change ?
IMHO just change it to a stance increase duration to 25 secunds and lower cooldown to 40 secunds.They wont be able to keep it up anymore and it will still be balanced. (Maybey they will have to delete the synergy with the pve only skills).Lilondra 20:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That would destroy the skill completely, and it wouldn't have any use anywhere... Wild Blow/Wild Throw/stance removal/changing stances and the user is dead.64.180.184.69 18:08, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I suppose that could work, but if there was any way to copy a stance (?) then it would be even harder to kill the assassin using it because it would cast instantly, no time for interrupts.Nope there is no way unless by using arcane mimicry to copy echo from a teammate but then you can kill that teammate and hell be screwed in time ;).(If he would use ress then he would be screwed bcause of energy).Another way of making this skill usefull is as in making i a FORM. Another way is making it a stance that can be kept up half of the time at 14 shadowarts But give it a req in crit strikes (so a monk cant use it).Stop the synergy with any pvp skill.And change the effect from miss to block.This way an assassin can easely gank with this (if you drop the health loss) without being completly imbalanced.(in case you didnt notice its still kept upt).81.244.109.40 11:52, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Why stance?It's overpowered but by changing it to stance it would kill it for PVE since they use running skills and those are stances. Why can't it be just elite signet that way arcane echo couldn't copy it. because then a signent would be a skill and you cant remove a skill OMG IDEA how aout makeing it end if the assasian takes any damage and changeing the miss to block. The Golden Arrow 02:43, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * OMG BETTER IDEA, LEAVE IT ALONE, have any of you tried to perma shadow, its one of the hardest things to do, if you make it block, wild strike and way of the fox will make it through, rendering it useless, as everyone will have to carry way of fox and wild to kill, ortry dropping hp loss, shortening recharge to 15 sec duration to 1..10..12, and have it be skill, shadow step to target foe, for 1..10..12 seconds all attacks against you miss, and all spells fail, when shadow form ends, you return to you original location and lose all energy. FTW Annoying And Deadly 03:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I actually like that idea... ALOT.. well except the shadowstep... that makes it overpowered... but even at 10 secs it would be an elite to use to survive that initial shadowstep spike that happens when you ppear and everyone targets you... after your combo its over... if they were to make it have the shadowstep ot would have to be substansially weaker (like keeping most of teh health loss)--71.225.181.83 23:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The only way to nerfstick this is change it into a skill. Halogod35 01:27, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

why? that makes it 100% unremovable, its not gonna be chenged, izzy knows how hard it is to perma, but if it was a skill it could not be manitained and they would have to remove the hp loss, maybe replace with energy loss. 66.189.192.56 00:01, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I have an idea...let's get Izzy to talk, let's hear his opinion on Shadow perma and anything else related to this skill, any idea on how to contact him? Let him have a final opinion and put it on a trophy case(different discussion) with his opinion written on ...IN BIG FAT LETTERS(quote taken from: SNES "DOOM" 's MANUAL). Let's see if we can put a coffin to this thing.--ShadowFog 13:58, 9 April 2008 (UTC)


 * LOL if you turned shadow form to a stance: Dwarven Stability+ Shadow Form = perma Shadow form with less need for energy and you can run it in any secondary.....genuises...09:35, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * hmm, i believe ppl dislike the pvp implications of shadow form, and dwarven stability is a pve only skill. balances arent made for pve (or at least they werent when you posted that), and an overpowered pve build isnt all that big a deal. 76.98.149.51 08:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Anet doesn't seem to agree with your views on pve... they claim it destroys the economy when farming gets too easy.64.180.184.69 18:09, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

a fix (i know there had been hundreds of ideas, but i think this is a good one ^^)
New shadow form:

10 Energy

1 sec cast time

0 cooldown

For 5...17...20 seconds, all hostile Spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss. When Shadow Form ends, lose all but 5...41...50 Health. This skill is DISABLED for 60 seconds. (Just like dervish avatars, its NOT AFFECTED BY ANY COOLDOWN REDUCERS.).

Well.. I like it the way it is, cause you can't really do much damage with 3 skills taken up with maintaining shadow form. Halogod35 16:58, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

arcane echo + SF + the mesmer elite steal skill = gg 84.82.12.16 17:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Or...
Just make it end a stance upon activation (doesn't have to be a stance), rendering Deadly Paradox when used with it, useless? Selket Shadowdancer 18:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Same Hand form another skill
Could this also have the same hand from Reaper's Mark? Treesbyty 12:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ahhh, it's a hand. For ages I had no idea what that icon was. From looking only at the small icon I mistook it for the Statue of Liberty falling down. --Lytel 03:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Haha was seeing exactly the same thing :) Little icons with their tiny pictures *mutters* -- Arduinna [[Image:User_Arduinna_Companionship.jpg|15px|talk]] 10:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

FFF
oh, yeah! - Y0_ ich_halt  13:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * farming in general! - Y0_ ich_halt  [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 13:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Pve in general! -- Rayd  [[Image:User rayd sig.png|19px|talk]] 14:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * i wrote a letter to anet. - Y0_ ich_halt  [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 14:08, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If you ask for SF getting nerfed you'll be keeld fo being a kitten. -- Rayd   [[Image:User rayd sig.png|19px|talk]] 14:28, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * i don't have anything against it. - Y0_ ich_halt  [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 15:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Then you're good, you can keel the kitten nao, -- Rayd   [[Image:User rayd sig.png|19px|talk]] 15:44, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * a dont wona keel teh kitten - Y0_ ich_halt  [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 15:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

It's Back!
YAY MRD 16:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * it never was away. - Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 17:04, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Now the annoying Afflicted Assassins on Hard Mode are really annoying again, especially the assassin boss. :( - 144.226.230.37 18:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * i'd suggest you learn to interrupt or kill faster :D - Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 18:52, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * or wait till it ends for an almost suicide on them -- M age [[image:user MageMontu sig.png| ]] M ontu 18:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * they activate it when they get to ~20% of their hp. - Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 19:13, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Then bring something like well of disenchantment Invincible Rogue 19:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

INF SHADOWFORM FOR E/A
glyph of swiftness,deadly paradox,shadowform.. 12 shadowarts, and a golden egg on top, boy the doa is gonna get farmed to hell--13ThirtySeven 00:13, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * everythings gonna get farmed to hell. - Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 08:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I know created the a/e build, someone has eddit on pvxwiki already4 months ago and putted it on gw.gamependium (http://gw.gamependium.com/tools/builds/show/4135) cause of the 26 sec upkeep with +20% and the 30 sec recharge i had only a 4 sec downtime. Now i could keep it up 100% :P.

Secondary Assassin: Maintain SF Uptime 100%?
i don't know who keeps putting it on the page, but "secondary assassins" CANNOT keep shadow form up permanently without an egg or something AND an essence of celerity. only Mesmer and Elementalist primaries can use Assassin as their secondary and keep it up permanently. explain to me another way for a dervish, monk, warrior, etc. to use Glyph of Swiftness and have assassin as their secondary. even an ele needs consumables to be able to keep it up 100% of the time. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:71.113.251.200 (talk).
 * Ranger --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:70.100.94.64 (talk).
 * ranger still has 1 second of downtime. The mesmer, however, does not need any eggs or anything. They can simply use Arcane echo and deadly paradox. Invincible Rogue 01:43, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * My ranger used Essence Of Celerity, Quickening Zephyr and a +20% enchant mod and still had 1 second downtime. This is likely due to the cap on recharge time decrease of 50%. So there is apparently no way for a ranger to maintain 100% uptime.--Doodle01 23:33, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Without consumes monks can maintain SF with 1-2 secs downtime(Blessed aura+deadly paradox+20% enchanting weapon). But which brings me to the next point, how do the monks kill after that?152.226.6.203 02:34, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * lol @ blessed aura + SF combo......last i heard, blessed aura = monk enchantments ^_^ 87.194.137.198 19:38, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

SF almost non-interruptable?
Am I correct if I say SF can be interrupted by very few skills which involve ONLY signets and AoE interrupts like Choking Gas?Checked all of em interrupt skills and it seems most of mesmer,all warrior and most of ranger skills can blow a SF Sin!This is very good for solo farmin bosses in HM while they got a big escort like Skybringer.This is important because if You go into an enemy group and they ain't got interrupts or skill-like or PBAoE skills they can blow a SF primary sin with Deadly Paradox and Gluph of Swiftness :D And this means that You can stand in the centre of a team of enemies consisting of like 50 dudes and they can blow ya' if they ain't got the skill types mentioned above :D

BTW Can the Broodmother cruch ya thru SF with her Twisting Jaws? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:82.139.154.98 (talk).
 * 1. WHAT? 2. SF can be interrupted by all things, except if you are on SF. 3. Yes, broodmother rapes youre perma SF. -- Rayd  [[Image:User rayd sig.png|19px|talk]] 17:07, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It seems You misunderstood me.I meant to say SF ain't interruptable when You got it on and reapply it.
 * If SF is up when you're recasting it, you're still affected by all of SF's effects. Which means yes, you're mostly uninterruptable. --71.237.30.4 08:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * To answer the original question ;p - Yes. Choking Gas (A preperation) can interupt through, as can interupt signets, AoE-centered on self (Can't think of any but self center AoE knockdowns work), intrestingly so do secondary effects on Paragon shouts such as Anthem of Disruption. Basiclly the only interupts you are safe from are the targetted-spell-type, and interupt-on-hit attack skills. --85.62.18.8 00:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Another idea
Couldn't you also use Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom to reduce it's recharge?
 * with only up to 60% chance to get the bonus? i'd rather stick with a sure 25% faster by glyph and 50% faster by deadly paradox. - Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 17:34, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Or you use a +20 % enchantment an egg and something else that buffs shadow arts :D then you only need DP 81.244.1.39 14:12, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Possible Nurf Way
From What I understand, some farming builds using Shadow Form uses nuking spells, and AoE spells like bed of coals, meteor shower etc. And those builds often don't require recasting of Shadow Form.

So... Why don't they just Increase the Recharge Time? Or much like the Dervish Avatar, make it disable itself for 60 seconds.

This way, PvP is saved, because they could only cast it every 60 seconds, or in Arcane Echo's terms, it leaves the sin vulnerable for 21 seconds every minute. While allowing some sins to still farm bosses, and not becoming totally invincible.

Well, Many of you are saying the PvE side shouldn't be nurfed. I say otherwise.

If this skill isn't nurfed, everyone would start having a sin just for this purpose, all rare item prices would crash, and pretty much all you'd see is well... A/E, or A/Me.
 * the problem with shadow form is that it is either complete trash and nobody would be stupid enough to use it (with too high recharge, too low duration, or what you recommended), or it is much too overpowered. The only solution to make shadow form a non-overpowerd but usable skill would be to change it completely. - Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 12:12, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Shadow Form before the buff was an amazing, very powerful skill and had a lot of uses in PvE - 20+ seconds of god mode is enough to farm most bosses with Sliver Armor, to ball-up and nuke 30+ Hard Mode Raptor Nestlings, and it was the best elite skill for most professions for chest running and fast cartography without killing. But having it maintainable infinitely is just crazy and leads to degenerate overpowered farming - you can carelessly aggro any number of mobs you want and nuke. Very few mobs have any kinds of counters to infinite SF. The way to make it should have the pre-buff duration and should be disabled for 60 seconds after use. There should be no possible way of infinitely maintaining a skill which is THAT powerful.--Yawg 20:18, 18 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thats what i suggested =)

I think any build that is capable of soloing everything anywhere easily should be nurfed, because it would just ruin the economy of the game, as well as destroy the number of other characters.


 * 1. For 19 seconds, you cannot be target of spells, all attacks miss, cannot recast until shadow form is over, Loose all but 50 health when enchantment ends. recharge 45, energy 10
 * 2. For 25 seconds, you cannot be target of spells, all adjacent targets are blinded, have a 65% chance of blocking attacks, ends if your health drops below 90%...75%. Loose all but 50 health when enchantment ends. energy 10, recharge 45
 * 3. For 19 seconds, 75% of all spells MISS, all adjacent targets are blinded, have a 75% chance of blocking attacks, Loose all but 50 health when enchantment ends
 * 4. For 30 seconds, all spells miss, all attacks miss, ends if ANY that are a target of a monk, fire magic spells are Nearby. Loose all but 50 health when enchantment ends

well for nerfing perma shadow form they should make deadly paradox work like this: for x second, your assassin non-elite skils recharge 50% faster, and/or make glyph of swiftness only affect elementalist spells.
 * neither GoS nor paradox need a nerf. shadow form does. - Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 21:35, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree. There are more ways of maintaining infinite Shadow Form, like Arcane Echo or Essence of Celerity used in fast split UW teams.


 * um how about, you just drop the hp loss, make it a form at 35 sec at 16 +20% mods, then it cantb be perma but the hp loss is gone.

PvE
Oh noes, it's good in PvE...let's complain about it. /sigh --71.67.243.230 15:55, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, do you want aNet to implement an 'Invincibility' skill in PvP to balance things out for you?

Why Nerf PvE?
Being a relatively newcomer to Guild Wars (almost a year now), I see no reason to nerf Shadow Form in PvE. Yes it makes farming easier and what not, but you still have to have some skill to farm or you are dead. Maintaining perma Shadow Form isn't easy and it takes some of your attention away from the game. As far as the price of ectos that everyone is concerned about, I think people who want ecto prices to remain at an absorbant 5k are greedy. Those of us newcomers who haven't had the advantage of playing 3 years have a lot of catchup to do. Some things that were obtainable easily in the beginning are now way out of our reach. This skill buff just levels the playing field a little. Seriously the economy of Guild wars isn't going to crash because ecto prices drop. For crying out loud, learn how to sell stuff and get gold and platinum for highly demanded things. To me it makes the game a little more fun to get some things that were previously unobtainable without the buff. And why should pple be forced to PuP places like the UW or two man team it. Are you going to nerf two man teams that go to the UW for ectos next? Personally I like solo playing GW. A good reason why is that when you PuP you sometimes get some snot nosed kid who is rude obnoxious and complaining that the party needs to hurry through the mission because mommy has given them a bed time. Now don't get me wrong, I do PuP, but usually only in guild or alliance teams. What it really boils down to is this... Anet don't nerf Shadow Form because of all the farming is going on in PvE. It levels the playing field with those players who haven't been playing since beta weekend. It does require some skill to preform and not everyone can do it. I can see everyone's point in PvP, but all these complaints in PvE are unfounded. To me it is the rich trying to protect their investments.
 * Maintaining perma-SF is ludicrously easy, and to me it is regular players trying to stop the GW economy from doing its best impression of the US' stock market in 1929. Ecto prices are very, very crucial to the economy because they're the best way to buy or sell items that are worth more than 100k, and their value is tanking, down about 1k since last week. --76.25.197.215 02:37, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Several flaws with that logic. Ecto prices are only crucial to the "economy" in the sense that maintaining their value is crucial to the farmers and high-end traders that foolishly tied up their wealth in an unstable commodity. It is because of them that ectos were not being sold to traders and prices were not coming down, rendering things crafted with them OUT OF REACH of the "regular players" you mentioned. That is the cost of using a market-affected item to convert cash. The same will likely happen with ZKeys, which seem to be replacing ectos, if it goes on long enough. This is not a "crashing economy" it is a "market correction." The only people hurt by the falling value of ectos are the farmers themselves (who are making less/run now, but still making a killing and thus not QQing) and those with hoards of ectos, and that's their own fault. For everyone else in the game, more sanely priced ectos are a GOOD thing. Chaos Gloves costing 400k are a sign that things are broken. Targren 19:47, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Chaos Gloves are fucking expensive because they're supposed to be fucking expensive. That's why they're made out of ectos instead of iron ingots.  Not everybody is supposed to have them (Limited availability is kind of the main idea behind capitalism).  The only reason high-end traders tied their wealth to ectos was because they didn't have much of a choice.  There was nothing else that convenient, valuable, and universal to use, and the 1000k+100k/toon cash storage limit meant rich players had to find something to convert gold into.  A market correction is when something that is overvalued drops in price to real market value, which actually did happen - there was about a three week lag between ecto values dropping and ecto prices dropping.  What's happening now isn't a correction, it's a devaluation due to the market being suddenly flooded.  But I see you've been paying attention to the housing market, which is a good thing. --76.25.197.215 17:25, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "Not everybody is supposed to have them" Really? Why not? --202.8.27.5 00:50, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, they used to cost about 400k to make. That should tell you something. --71.229.253.172 06:22, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, The main issue here are PRIMARILY builds like this [] chaos planes farmer. The main issue is that people have been farming the out of chaos planes is whats making ecto prices tank. Simply add Signet of Disenchantment to the Mindblade Specters and many of the inf shadow problems will cease. They won't go away but ecto prices wont take such a drastic free fall as they are right now. I don't think inf shadow form should be nerfed when Bear Mode is still ing up the rest of pve. Psychiatric Consultant 16:37, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Just nerf them both... Koen 16:42, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

they cant, signets of disenchantment is factions skill, thats a core location, so think of something else Shadowshock 19:15, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Orly? --Srakin 23:47, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The reason high-end armor is expensive is because they are STATUS SYMBOLS. They are in no way better than standard armor in terms of usefulness, but they prove that the owner has enough money to buy them/craft them. Chaos Gloves are 400k for this reason, not because the economy is broken. And regarding the first comment...what you are suggesting is an economy where any average terribad player that bought the game last week can be as rich as a great player who has played since the beta weekend. THAT would break the economy. The economy is NOT broken. Ectos are expensive because people who could get them pre-SF chose to keep it that way, and people who don't have them/can't be assed to farm them shouldn't have the right to decide the price. The price stayed high because people were WILLING to pay 5k each, not because the greedy gold-hoarding top 1% wouldn't drop the price. Ectos are the standard gold conversion item, and now that they are dropping to about 2k each, this isn't possible anymore, and there's no point trying to sell anything for more than 100k, which drops the price of everything. THIS is a broken economy, where any terribad player has the same elite armor set as the aforementioned longtime player, and there's really no point getting the elite armor sets, other than the fact that people will wonder why you don't have them when it's so easy. You obviously have no idea how an average economy works, and are just whining because is SF gets nerfed you won't be able to farm. /rant. 24.188.82.8 21:31, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No need to exaggerate and get personal. Honestly, about 2k of the price drop was pure psychology - the perceived value went down, so people panicked and sold lower and the perceived value went down, so people panicked and sold lower and the perceived value went down, etc.  Commodities markets are gay like that. :/
 * The real problem is that unlike RL commodities markets, there's no motivation for the market value to ever correct to match real value since ectos have no use beyond their monetary worth (and chaos gloves), so without a concerted effort I doubt prices will recover anytime in the next six months or so. --76.25.197.215 21:45, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry if i got personal/dickish, it's hard for me to stop when I'm ranting =S. Shadow form getting nerfed will speed up the price increase, as the inflow of ectos will start to decrease, but it will still take a while. Regardless, I would like to say: OMG SHADOW FORM NEEDS NERFED. I don't care if it's maintainable, just make it harder to do. Pre buff SF was fine. 24.188.82.8 00:44, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

This nerf was bound to happen at one point or another. I admit, it's a bit sad, since I'd come to like farming with one, since it was different. But I've never been a hardcore farmer, so I barely ever farmed with it.

What makes me happy though, is that they only nerfed it damage-wise. It can still be used for running, which is mainly why I love it. Of course, it's considerably slower than a standard runner (mainly dervishes, but it's safer than most. In any case, this nerf is exactly what it needed. It just means that people will have to revert to the old methods for farming now. --99.241.76.164 05:04, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Summary of majority views here
"Uh oh! The US GW economy is going into recession collapsing and the dollars ectos in my account xunlai are devaluing and i'm getting poorer by the second! Quickly! Stop pumping moneys ectos into the system so that I'll be rich again!"

Sorry, I just had to put that in. To be honest though I do think it's an accurate representation of some opinions here. --202.8.27.5 00:59, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. SF is just fine. Just like the pre-Dying Nightmare 55 monk and the pre-nerf SB Monk. Boogy 12:18, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It is pve, it is not competetive, I dont see why everyone whines about sf, it lets assassins farm, it gives tham chances to be nearly as good as monks are which is good, the prof lacked that feature greatly, and dont say that sf makes you inn all of the game cuz it makes you unkillable, no, it isnt ursan, if you go to general non-farm pve as a permaform you waste huge ammounts of possible dps you can do with normal ms/db, there isnt need for such defense. stop whining, there isnt such thing as pve balance as long as ursan lives. --Super Igor 12:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Assassins could farm before the SF-buff. In fact, most Assassin farming builds at that time also involved SF. Here are a few examples of non-permaform assassin farm builds that worked before the SF buff, , , . Boogy 13:28, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Sliver-perma-SF also nerfed?
It says You deal 50%less damage...does it mean Sliver Armor also deals half the damage? :( I was jus gonna start farming em raptors for event items in HM with my sin.--Monolito 17:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It means that if you are under the effects of Shadow Form, you deal 50% less damage, regardless of what skill you are using to create that damage.--[[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png | Wyn's Talk page]] Wynthyst 22:08, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep. I just checked. I'll get a screen in a second. It halves all damage, regardless of whether it is indirect or direct. [[Image:Sliver-shadow-halved.jpg|800px]]
 * I should note that Sliver Armor has generally dealt 18-23 damage to Fahralon previous to the nerf in my experiences. Cedave 22:32, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, this is funny, because my brother just finished making his Perma-SF Sin. I laugh at that. I guess this had to happen eventually, but it's still a bit of a rude awakening. Krelus Derian 23:40, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yea uve seen what happened to me. :o --<font color="Red">Super <font color="Blue"> Igor [[Image:User Super Igor sig2.jpg|19px|User:Super Igor]] 23:41, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

this proves there is a god :D


 * More like proves that anet are trolls, ggtrolling. :p --<font color="Red">Super <font color="Blue"> Igor [[Image:User Super Igor sig2.jpg|19px|User:Super Igor]] 00:12, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, that's lame. It really should have only been direct damage that gets affected, now all raptor and most green E/A builds are utter rubbish, and the A/E ones are near-useless. GG trollNet =D As a side-note, how would the green market (however much of one there was) get affected? Silavor [[Image:UserSilavorSigIcon.png]] 00:50, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

lawl, i knew this nerf was coming yet no one believed me eh =\. the only reason this happened is cuz a bunch of newbs were ripping strats off of wiki and skill was no longer a neccessity when u farmed, all it took was a half assed noob to hit buttons blindfolded, i dont see why they just dont revert shadowform back to its old form --Arrythmia 03:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Nerf uw keep sf trollnet T.T --<font color="Red">Super <font color="Blue"> Igor [[Image:User Super Igor sig2.jpg|19px|User:Super Igor]] 12:12, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

But tbh...
Still an imba running skill, too bad I couldnt really farm with it because of insane lag i have all the time. :'< --<font color="Red">Super <font color="Blue"> Igor  00:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't have it been "Your spells deal 50% less damage"? I mean it was nerfed to counter farming, now it is completely useless for what skills are normally; playing. Which assassin'd give up a skill slot fur such a soothing defense in normal play? Another epic fail of thine, dearest ANet. Noctarch 01:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * tank - Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 10:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Tanking is more damage-less farming than playing :P Noctarch 22:00, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The irony here is that it is still REALLY EASY to farm the Chaos Plains for ectos with a Perma-sin. A-Net fails at skill balancing. See my user page for details....and yes I've tried it and it really is only 25% slower than before. Psychiatric Consultant 01:56, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * For fucks sake you dont get, UW SPEEDFARMING AND CHAOS PLAINS, were ruining the economy, nerf the area dont nerf the poor skill and send 90% of all sf farming build which werent doing a thing to economy as any other normal farm!! It is an epic fail imo, more I think of it more Im sure about it, lol revert sf change, keep uw change imo!! --<font color="Red">Super <font color="Blue"> Igor [[Image:User Super Igor sig2.jpg|19px|User:Super Igor]] 12:11, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * balancing is about making farm stuff not be good. - Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 14:05, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

One Fairness To Rule Them All
I think that every profession (class) has to find their niche in the game. I have almost 1 of every character, and am not biased to any. I think that far too long Guild Wars devs have really focused on their PvP community, which is fine...however they are many many that have nothing to do with PvP.

Shadow Form was definitely an abusable skill in PvP... which is where the devs were watching. In PvE however... the only ones complaining were the other jealous farm builds.

If you're going to kill 1 farm build..... kill them all. You know you have a problem when you hear comments like "LFG to SpeedClear UW!" The UW was not designed to be speedcleared.. imho. However, If the players have devised a way to do so with thier given skillsets ..then so be it.

That being said i reiterate...if you're going to "nerf" one.... "nerf" them all.

/The 55 Monk
 * That's much harder than perma-SF so you could take this situation fair. Not Dying Nightmares. Still possible to farm UW but harder. It's OK Gelei 11:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

/The SS Necro
 * There are many builds with SS so this idea would lead to the deleation of that skill?Gelei 11:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

/The VoS Derv (running Drok's) Drok's wasn't intended to be reached from Beacon's early in the game.
 * Nothing to say here. I agree Gelei 11:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

/The 130 Derv
 * 130hp is nerfed already :) Still you can use it, like the nerfed perma-SF build. Gelei 11:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

/The Fire Farming Ele
 * Agreed Gelei 11:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

/The Trapping Teams
 * Trapping teams are bad enough to let them live. Especially UW trapping. Long and boring. Gelei 11:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

/and the ever so popular URSAN builds, and more...
 * Ursan is made to popularize EotN, I think it's OK. Buy EotN and get that skill. If someone don't have every chapter than it's unfair. But you can't nerf all non-Prophecies skill! Gelei 11:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

NO MATTER what is done... people will find their niche in the game.. I say let them have their builds ... or take them all away. I thought the focus of the game was to become battle hardened learning your skill-sets and how to modify them to suit the situations. I've got several characters across many builds.. I just began farming with different builds... People are going to get tired of being the "have-nots" ... while others have plenty... Lest we not forget last year's slew of bots that overran the game for quite some time.

In Closing.. I say..... "give to all... or give to none." Bascially, the Assassin was just removed from ever being able to suitable farm... Well if farming is so bad...stop it across the board and shut down the rest.

Above all have fun.... and be fair!

Hodjedi 03:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)hodjedi
 * I completely 100% agree with you. To make a more specific point, the players who have been around for longer do pretty much one thing, farm.  What they farm, though, can be split into two categories: titles and gold.  Sure, there are people who hate one and people who hate both, but the majority of the players do both.  So why nerf one of the better farming builds in the game for gold, and not nerf things like Ursan for the dungeon crawlers?  It makes little to no sense.  I already know more than one person who is threatening just to quit (sure, extreme) just because they feel that ANet is being completely ridiculous with what they do and do not nerf.  As much as I HATE to see people advertise Ursan in missions and FoW/UW, there is no debating that it works, and people have fun with it.  And that's really the bottom line, people have fun with Ursan, people have fun with Sin farming.  Period.  The economy was recovering before the nerf anyway, so that's hardly a valid point.
 * tl;dr I agree completely Ruski 06:07, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

oh drats they nerfed Shadowform fire nukers in AB and aspenwood.--Justice 07:05, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah I agree with this too, in PvP they nerfed Chain lightning/lightning orb spike teams, Ranger spirit spam, some smite builds, minion masters, ranger spike (this is still possible but with all the new skills that have been coming out since then it is very hard to run) and so on, but in PvE they hardly do any nerfing.64.180.184.69 07:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Rspike is easy as shit to run, and more common than Sway these days. --71.229.253.172 11:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * When was the last time you saw an Rspike team hold HoH for 7 hours in a row?64.180.184.69 18:01, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

The A/E can still farm the Chaos Planes. Less enemies that usual but they can still farm some ecto's. Good to see that Anet didn't nerf the complete farm but only a part to reduce the earnings. Most people that are QQing about a nerf haven't been down there to check for themselves if it works. (Ate of DK 10:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC))

'''I highly respect ANET's move, because it's still possible to farm, but it's made harder. /kneel.''' (My primary character is an assassin) Gelei 11:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * At last! Interesting move from ANet, nerfing the effectiveness but leaving all the builds working. I waited this nerf from the moment I tried it in UW - boring, boring and boring again. IMHO, more fun is to farm smites with dervish, u can be killed at least, and some skill required to do that. Hope ecto price will rise again. My primary is also sin and I'm happy about this update. TY ANet! De1m0s 12:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Elementalist Shadow Form farming is a goner now, and no eles weren't the perma sf runners!
Tx for ruining all E/A farming builds now, plz gives back the very old SF, at least that was WAY better then this crap we got now. Why do other professions have to get even nerfed more then perma sf sins. Plz remove the less 50 dmg while under SF and add foes in Underworld to nerf the ecto farming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My main = ele is utter crap now when trying to farm anything

BEST option return SF to its original setting less duration and no negative dmg nerf!

S_Serpent (talk) 12:13, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * keep uw nerf rever sf nerf plzzzz T.T --<font color="Red">Super <font color="Blue"> Igor [[Image:User Super Igor sig2.jpg|19px|User:Super Igor]] 12:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Imo the best solution would have been
 * Make Shadow Form a Stance
 * Move Glyph of Swiftness to Energy Storage,
 * Make the recharge scale aswell or
 * Make it work with ele skills only --<font color="#CC0000">M <font color="#330000">age [[image:user MageMontu sig.png| ]]<font color="#CC0000">M <font color="#330000">ontu 12:33, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Offcourse they give Assassins an advantage over elementalists with this change. After all it's an Assassin skill. (Ate of DK 13:30, 3 July 2008 (UTC)).
 * There's always terra tanking =)<font color="Orange">Chi <font color="Red">Shan  14:35, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Quit your bitching, stop farming your entire life and go play this game for fun, seriously. --Ckal Ktak 16:56, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

You know, the one thing that upsets me about this skill change is that- in my opinion, the fact that your health dropped down to just 41 was a weakness on its own. That was what made the player go 'hmmm do I really want to equip this skill' and luckily some people who spent enough dedicated time on the game, were able to get past that weakness for certain things (such as the raprtor farming). But now with this nerf...what's the point in shadow form? Why would anyone want to do 50% less damage for the next 18 or so seconds only to die afterwards. If they're going to nerf it to 50% less damage, so be it...but why still keep the health drop at the end. Might as well delete the skill! I often agree with the decisions Anet makes but this decision was slightly unwise of them...not only are they attacking the wrong group of farmers, but they've literally made a great skill become utter crap. I mean, I've read what others had to say, and I agree- the guild wars economy is messed up, but taking out shadow form isn't going to fix it- but rather irritate the players. As for in pvp, you know what, shadow form was an annoyance but so are interrupt rangers. So what should Anet do about it? Go and delete every interrupt skill? No...I understand some players not seeing what the big deal is and to quote another person on here who said 'Quit your bitching, stop farming your entire life and go play this game for fun, seriously'- For those who have been playing GW for a while and have beaten all the campaigns like three times, Farming IS the fun...getting to see your character have many titles, IS the fun...So obviously it's upsetting when your fun is cut off. With that being said- I really hope Anet takes the 50% off, why punish the players because they spend time playing the game and figuing out how to make great bullet proof builds (which arent really bullet proof, just annoying for those who dont know how to get past them)? Instead of nerfing that build, why not give the other classes a nice little buff so that they can make equal builds to counteract the others?


 * Just tell me why perma sf sins that abuse a build for enormous ecto farming should be still able to abuse the build (but slightly changed and only little bit less effective) and other non-primary sins that do some not so harmfull farming with sf and seriously no perma sf get there builds broken into oblivion. You see the difference now maybe.
 * And about the people stating lines like - stop bitching and yada yada yada - you really should start not to comment on other players perception of fun! I like solo farming after 3 years of playing gw I have enough chars that completed multiple campaigns. And believe my farming never hurted the economy, you know why? Since the farming I do is for items I use myself instead of buying them at ridiculous prices from people that overfarm and overcharge! I don't own tens of ectos don't own armbraces, ... I farm asura pts with the raptor cave for my title and now its even a bigger grind!
 * --[[Image:User S Serpent sig.gif]] S_Serpent (talk) 09:57, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Fix
Description: Elite Stance. For seconds all attacks against you miss and all spells cast against you fail. If this stance lasts its full duration you lose all but health. This skill is disabled for seconds.

Like it?

╙─ ╠<font color="Black">Dogzrdogz ╣ talk
 * Still maintainable using . As a stance, it can't be removed by any foe, since all stance-ending skills are attacks. And you can just into a new stance to completely avoid the drawback of this stance lasting its full duration. Boogy [[image:User Boogy Sig.jpg]] (Talk/Contributions) 08:40, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Pwnt. Just get the duration back to what it was before the split..Koen 08:41, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

You still need like r10 delver to maintain it...and if you acidentally use dash in the middle of a run (or farming area), your screwed. ╙─ ╠<font color="Black">Dogzrdogz ╣ talk
 * If you are farming and this can be maintained, there is no need to bring dash. Even if you do bring it, placing it on the opposite side of the skillbar will remove any chance of accidental triggering. If this was also introduced in pvp, using dash at the wrong time won't really hurt you since you will be unable to maintain it. And if allowing an overpowered skill like this to be used with r10 delver, then I guess there's nothing wrong with either since you still need like r10 norn to use it. Boogy [[image:User Boogy Sig.jpg]] (Talk/Contributions) 12:54, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I have another idea. This isn't so much a fix as a way 2 cushion the massive nerf they handed it. Shadow Form for x seconds attacks against you miss and spells against you fail when this enchantment ends you lose all but x health while under the effects of this enchantment your SPELLS deal 50% less damage. This would still leave room for the slower dagger sin farmers as well as perma-sin tanks who can actually do some damage. Psychiatric Consultant 00:31, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Assassins doing less damage than normal is a bad idea imo in any case. There should be a skill in fact that allows you to do much more damage than normal for a short period of time and then have a bad effect like getting killed and get DP for it. Assassin's theme is about killing stuff not about surviving/mitigating damage. Eth


 * I still prefer the form idea. Elite Form. For 5...25...30 seconds, all hostile Spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss. This Skill is disabled for 60 seconds. or something along those lines. --<font color="#CC0000">M <font color="#330000">age [[image:user MageMontu sig.png| ]]<font color="#CC0000">M <font color="#330000">ontu 12:18, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * All other elite forms can be kept up using Eternal Aura. Changing Shadow Form to an elite form would make it so it does not function like the other elite forms.--Shayne123 13:05, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Simply change Shadow Form to "For 5...25...30 seconds, all hostile Spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss, but each skill you use while under this enchantment reduces the duration of Shadow Form for an additional 5 seconds. When Shadow Form ends, lose all but 5...41...50 Health." Timing could be tweaked until its perfected, but I think this could work.Buffer 20:09, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * To Shayne, Eternal Aura clearly states that When this Enchantment ends, all other Dervish Skills are recharged. so, no it won't effect shadow form. --<font color="#CC0000">M <font color="#330000">age [[image:user MageMontu sig.png| ]]<font color="#CC0000">M <font color="#330000">ontu 19:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Ectos...
...are back down to the ~4K-or-less area. GG. Ezekial Riddle 23:43, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Update
WOW!! Heaviet nerf i've ever seen on a farming lynchpin skill... I'm not sure that I particularly like where this logic will head in the future, but the fact that I had to sell ectos for around 4k today, I'm going to have to congratulate ANet on this one. TheAllEncompassingScythe 04:04, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Wasn't around for the Pbond nerf, eh? --76.25.197.215 04:11, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Technically, the Protective Bond 'nerf' wasn't a nerf. See here for details on why Protective Bond was changed. [[Image:User_The_Cabal_Sig_pic_01.png|19px|]] <font color="#008888">The Cabal <font color=#008888>Stalk me!  12:00, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I like this, now the farming part of the game got rebalanced! <font color="#000999">Ninjas In The Sky  06:43, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Any one know if traps or life stealing are affected by the nerf? Are spells not cast by you, but on you such as Ancestor's Rage affected by the nerf? My guess is life stealing wouldn't be, and neither would traps, but traps are more likely to be affected than life stealing. I would think the easiet way to test life stealing is to put vampric daggers on and see if they still do their normal life stealing damage. I would test the skill myself, but don't have the skill on my sin..Loki..207.71.50.165 18:22, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Hate to break it to you, but the only decent farming trap (dust trap) is 25e, has a 30s recharge and can't do much to kill a foe. Life stealing won't really help a lot, because for farming, really quick damage (like sliver armor) or AoE damage (Fire Magic) is used most often. <font color="#000999">Ninjas In The Sky  19:34, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Life stealing is not affected because it is not considered 'damage' in the sense. Traps are affected because it is you that caused the damage as you laid the trap to begin with. If someone casts ancestors rage on you, then that is not affected because it is not you that caused the damage, it is the other person that caused it.Buffer 20:02, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * There was a piece of shit in my alliance that said he solos aatxes with perma SF and lava font... God ppl can be dumb. Armor rating would prevent half the damage anyway. <font color="#000999">Ninjas In The Sky  13:42, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If you manage your energy well, you would just take a really long time, but you CAN solo. No reason to insult something so possible and plausible. Soloing =/= rush through fast.152.226.7.211 02:44, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Whatever, I see most of the ppl on this page are people who use a wrong, wrong build. -Holds back insulting comment- Assassins are a wrong profession in general. <font color="#000999">Ninjas In The Sky  07:32, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I imagine that Illusionary Weapon would be affected by the change as well, has anyone tried it?...Loki207.71.50.165 13:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * if you tell me how to use Shadow Form and Illusionary Weaponry together? - Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 13:30, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * . Boogy [[image:User Boogy Sig.jpg]] (Talk/Contributions) 13:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thx Boogy. Obviously this wouldn't be for a solo farming run.  Also, for record I'm just trying to come up with a way to make the skill useful after the update, I don't farm nor do I even have the skill.  This is just an exercise to see if the skill is even useful in the least since the update.  From what I have read from some the developer blogs and other sources, its likely that the skill is going to undergo a fairly large change during in August update as well so all of this might be for nothing, but still interested to see how it works.  2-man PvE team Twin Assassins :)...Loki207.71.50.165 18:38, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * it's still one of the major solo farming skills since degeneration, i.e. Burning Speed, isn't affected at all. also, SF is still the A++ skill for tanking and running. - Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 19:18, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Have you ever tried burning a foe to death? 14 dps is doable but hardly efficient. -- Inspired to ____ 19:26, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * chaos planes say farming is efficient. not the best, but ppl are still doing it. - Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 19:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * SF chaos planes farming is so so now, but I don't see why anyone would be burning them to death, and just because people are doing something in game hardly means it is efficient. -- Inspired to ____ 19:51, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

My thoughts on SF as an assassin who tries to play the profession as intended: If the original idea behind Shadow Form was to be an escape skill the 50% outgoing damage reduction can be justified. Problem is that for an elite escape skill the casting time (1s) is WAY too much. If the idea behind SF was not to escape but stay there and fight while mitigating some/all of the damage, the 50% outgoing damage reduction can't be justified cause here is the assassin profession - the profession that's supposed to excel in single target damage. A less than 100% incoming damage reduction would be much more justifiable imo, instead of what happened with this last update. So as it is, i can't understand what this skill is supposed to do. Not an escape, not a protection to keep you fighting, this skill definitely lacks theme and field of usage behind making it permanent and turning yourself into god mode which as i understand wasn't intended in the first place. Eth 14:03, 17 July 2008 (UTC) Still good for running, as in cartography and running people :D

Hahahahahahahahaha
To all you farmers out there. All of you, no matter the build. Ha ha ha. Maybe thats what you get for farming like crazed idiots instead of playing the game with people like it was intended. Now to farm you have to increase the number of people. Say, to about 8? FleshAndFaith 17:50, 27 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Comments like the one above make me laugh so hard about the ego some have thinking that the playstyle they prefer is the only playstyle that is acceptable. Let the farmers farm, let the pvp'ers pvp, ... and let people do the things they like jeeeez its a game to have fun with!
 * Like farming is bad, then we can say pvp is bad and so is playing the game!
 * I wonder how long do you actually play this game yet? What have you achieved so far? And did you have fun? Well whatever the answer was to the first two questions, it only matters if you answered the last one with YES, but now what makes you say you can dictate what other percieve as fun? !!!!! Go troll somewhere else, bb cya have fun (wave)--[[Image:User S Serpent sig.gif]] S_Serpent (talk) 08:14, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * S serpent you phail when you say farming is good for the game in the proportions it has now.have you seen the prices of tormented items ? collosal scimitats ? elemental swords ? etc thse items dropped to much in price and are no onger elite because of youre farming.Pvp isnt bad for the game it is why people buy (or should buy) this game.Yes i have fun with playing this game but if you think ursan ,shadowform and other skills are good for the game because they give ppl gold then youre wrong W R O N G ! IMO uw and FoW shouldnt have the possibility to enter solo or with hero's only Lilondra 14:39, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Lol where did it say that farming is good for the game?!! I say farming isn't bad for the game and that means something totally different!
 * If tormented weapons like you call some items by name, why should they go over 100K and ... ecto? A.net mate a limit on gold transactions to 100k, you think if they wanted to have items more then that they would have implemented ways for transactions over 100k without the necessity if the so called vanity item ecto! or whatever players will use instead.
 * You know why ecto's dropped so fast? I'll tell you, not by the farming, only because the people holding stacks ands stacks of them getting scared they drop more and they lowered it by flooding it to the market. Now everybody thinks the perma sins can't farm it anymore and the prize is hardly raising because there still is about the same influx from farmers, but the excess from flooding it by the extreem rich has ended and stabilized. And you know what they just exchanged it for z-keys or what ever item they can think of and is stable enough.


 * Money making is always been in buying low and selling high, and I never played that game. Its to boring.
 * I rather give away this or that item I can get by playing what I think is fun imo to my friends and guildies.


 * Some other things to think about:
 * First this game was designed as skill vs grinding! So that the casual guy could play a game where most are on the same playing field (ok not fully true for pvp)! Farming facilitates this, and the casual guy (where I'm sure there are way more casual guys then leet ones) benefits.
 * About the market, it was already way corrupted since the first mess where there was no roll-back for, so don't go tell me farming did the damage like you so want to believe! AND that was about 6 months after release of GW:P


 * Secondly if you think a.net nerfed shadowform so the uw farm would stop, they totally missed it to nerf it properly instead they nerfed the wrong people! While the perma sins still do the same farm in UW :D Like many will agree with me, shadowform should have been reverted to its original pre-buff state so you wouldn't have the perma ability without the use of some costly comsumables!
 * So if farming isn't a legit way of playing they should have made solo or dual, ... parties impossible for the regions! If you would found my previous post in this thread you would see what I mean with farming and how shadow form should have been solved instead with this reduction of dmg, don't make laugh.


 * People complaining about the ecto's going so low are just the people that have tons and tons off ecto, for what reason? just to brag and epeen, can you buy a car with that, can you buy a house with it NO. Jeeeez this is a game for godsake, go brag with you Iphone, Porsch or whatever.


 * Oh and while we are playing devils advocate, nerf all running, all minipets, all armor, all weapons, all stuff to fill your digital ego's! Yeah nerf all transactions of any kind that will do it!


 * And since you wanna make this into an URSAN whine post let me comment on that a little too = I never wasn't pro ursan, I only saw what positive it brought to the community, it broke down the leetness of teams and offered less wanted professions that didn't fit in to the meta of certain builds for your elite regions or whatever a ways to access it! So instead of having you been forced to play the a.net skillbar of ursan your now forced to play this specific profession what that specific skillbar from the peeps who think they are so leet. I rather have a.net then, at least its there game!


 * PS: Oh and try to read the sarcasm where its intended!--[[Image:User S Serpent sig.gif]] S_Serpent (talk) 09:51, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * "so you wouldn't have the perma ability without the use of some costly comsumables" idk if you know this but it was possible to perma maintain SF before the buff, without the use of cons. --Go4the1 22:00, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


 * LOLOL serpent just stop lol :') you may have some nice points but common saying ursan and shadowform have nothing to do with the fallen economy ? geez If you say it wasnt menth to be like that then tell my why there is somethiung like crystalines (or was there something like crystalines) why were so many things rae that are hardly rare now.Tell me how many things cost over 100 k and tell me how many items that used to cost more then 100 k just because you think it is normal something dropped with more thne a million it isnt normal.Ursan has something to do with it,so does shadowform,stoneflesh,55,.... UW shouldnt be farmed solo and the dying nightmares are virtual but living prove of that.(still living but w/e :p).Giving perma sf is just giving noobs the ability to make money while others have a hard time.A lot of peoplelike me used to make tons of money in 1 day just because of the economy.Well now i just wonder where is the economy there once was ? I'm not saying things should go back because i made money out of it i"m saying things should go back because it was much better.but this isthe end of this discussion you can say all you want but i dont think you rly make sense if you say farming is healthy for the game in ANY form imo.Farming causes the market of something that otherwise is rare to flood causing the item to drop to much in prise.Actually people arent keeping ecto's because there afraid they are going to drop more that would be the most stupid thing ever.They sell ecto's to someone else because they get MORE for them or they keep them for trades above 100k.Keeping ecto's because they wont drop as fast is like saying you want to lose 100ndreds of k's every time the ecto drops ;) YES I DO MAKE WALLS OF TEXT Lilondra 13:16, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

wtf is it with all the 'short stories' on this page. please keep it under like...i dont know... just short enough that someone can bother reading it--Justice 21:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

- Jeez Lilondra. Obviously you were one of those rich people in terms of Guild Wars. You also don't understand much about the market as you pretend. Take it from a person that has been playing from the start. =P

To even think about wanting the market to revert is economic suicide for newer players. Think about it for a minute. People like you and me back in those days were rolling in the money and ecto, rare items, etc., however, I also remember what it was like to walk around with a low level character, needing some good items, and some of the best items around were worth at a minimum of 75k or higher! AFTER you attached ectos to the cost! Point being, it was like monopolies on the game. I don't know about you, but that was hell. I would rather the prices be attainable than astronomical again! And I will quit the game if it ever goes back to that... And I am certain there are people reading this, who remember the early days, knowing what I am talking about and even partially, if not wholly, agreeing. I would much prefer the new players get to trounce around, earning their fair share of gold and items too. Otherwise Guild Wars stops because there are no new players. Why? Would you come to a game that has been rigged so that only the wealthy, 'l33t!!1!'(Thank you Serpent for actually giving them a name xD), and veteran players make the money, while new player that don't know how to play very well have to sit back and hope to get in a guild so they can get helped out and taken care of? I sure as hell wouldn't. If I wanted that I'd play WoW((No offense to WoW players. WoW is just being used as an example because everyone know what I am referring to. There are better examples. =])).

I would also like everyone talking about this issue of the economy and those reading about it saying, "What the is this about?" get an understanding here. Where as there is a massive market in Guild Wars, and these l33t traders make the GW world spin 'round, the market is actually going to be just fine. How many times have there been price drops and phase outs in the market? The perma SF build is farming the UW, boo hoo! My ectos are going from 5k to 4k and fluxing there. Boo. Hoo. It isn't like the real world SE where the ectos are head and shouldering on us here. The price on those tricky things are always in flux. As someone posted earlier in this page, this is a commodity that is irregular and subject to gradual drop (Not exact words, I just borrowed the concept). Just like all of the other items perhaps? Take a look back and you will see that this is just a down part of the season for marketing anyway. It's about to spike soon because of upcoming holidays, and I am gonna cringe when it happens. ANet has this funny habit of noticing when items are losing value and always pops in a new item to replace it. Ex. ZKeys! I have a theory that the only reason why ectos are so valuable and kept up that way are because of the people that run the market, ya know the l33t ---holes? They are the ones that really set the prices, and guess what! I give you a hint: It has to do with economic preservation and Locke's social contract in action! =O l33t TRADERS HOARDING ECTOS LIKE KIDS HOARD CANDY ON HALLOWEEN!

That last paragraphs point got lost in a partial rant, but here it is plainly to you. There was no immediate concern over the ectos or the markets in general. The real reason why everyone wanted the nerf so d-mned badly was because it took skill to beat the perma SF combo. And ANet only nerfed it to stop complaints and also say "We don't want another 101 repeat!"

In conclusion, Lilondra. Your argument is merely misplaced. You were probably one of those without the skill to compete with the threat of a new genius build that could allow every player with enough sense to play the game at a decent level farm where you failed. You were probably begging for the nerf so you could still be a commodity, because lets face it. Farmers are rapidly decreasing because the farming anywhere unless it in HM isn't what it used to be. I say the nerf never should have happened, because I am tired of watching amazing ideas and superb combos that kick my --- get slaughtered because people don't like to think when they play their game. Now some may read this and pick me to shreds, because no argument is bulletproof. And others may yet agree with me. Thanks for reading my take on the 'situation.' ^^

P.S. = I know I posted the equivalent of a book, but I literally talk like this and am very long winded... Sorry for the inconvenience to those that hate this 'wall of text' shit... =/

~ Raska The Archmage Posted on September 13, 2008 at 6:13am EST [GST -5]

Symbiosis bug is back
Noticed that Symbiosis combined with shadow form is again killing you. Or leaving you with 1 HP. Tried it 5x, killed me 3x, left me with 1hp 2x. Thought they fixed this bug back in 07.Palewook 14:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah this bug was causing me serious problems in URgoz's Warren. I wouldnt mind if it was consistent but its not like you say sometimes it kills you sometimes not. It seemed to be droping my health to 1 then either killing me or not after its dropped my health to 1. at first i though something was hitting my but most of the time i was miles out of danger or everything on the map was dead.90.207.245.21 10:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Spirit Spammer
Makes an interesting spirit spammer with ghostly haste if anyones bored. Spirits deal their full damage=)70.100.80.18 20:08, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Spirit of Disenchantment?
I'm confused about something. Looking through the long list of abilities that hit through SF at the top of this discussion page, Disenchantment is listed. That didn't seem right, but I aggroed a group of Irukandji and found that the Spirit of Disenchantment that Disenchantment summons does, in fact, remove SF. Why? Disenchantment says that the spirit only removes an enchantment when it hits with an attack, and SF says that all attacks against you miss, so if SF says that the spirit's attacks don't hit, then how is the spirit removing SF? 68.9.183.54 00:08, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You answered your own question...they're hitting you. It's a bug. 66.250.190.107 15:26, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Wow....
This is pathetic.....you people were insulting SF, now you want i back...man...make up your mind ffs.... --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:68.18.2.66 (talk).


 * Notice how it's different people complaining about different things. That's normal. It's not like it's the exact same people complaining in both directions. --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  02:12, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * They were mad at first because no one wanted their shitty warrior tanks. They made assassins for tanking and farming (I guess, dual purpose), and it gets nerfed.  Now they're mad because they can't wtfwin pve using Sliver Armor anymore.  --  euphoracle  |  talk  20:41, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * *still uses a generic Sliver Armor boss farming build just fine, except now SF lasts forever* --> --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  09:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

LMAO~WHO EVER THINKS THE NERF IS A DRAW BACK~GO GANG RAPE SOME WALLABIES
aoe degen


 * You seem strong about this? <font color="Black">-- § <font color="Red">Lacky <font color="Black">§  [[Image:User_Lacky_sig.png|My Contributions]] Talk 05:53, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

New Name for Shadow Form
i think it needs to be renamed to Shadow Farm --Adrin 18:50, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

re:
Many thanks.