User talk:Axis

Talk!
Why can't I edit talk pages?!


 * Besides my own, apparently. -- Axis 09:40, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Notable chest run times
Hey, my apologies for stepping on your edit for timing of the CoF chest run. I'll check it out again, but I couldn't get to 2 minutes last time I tried (although, admittedly, I didn't follow your advice...since you hadn't written it yet).

Generally, though, I think the wiki should err on the side of longer times. People read our estimates...and assume that they are more/less guaranteed and that it won't be hard to do a lot better. So, if you (as an expert at this run) can do it in 90s, I think we should post ~2min.

That probably means that we should revisit the rest of the rows in that table. When that was a series of bullets, I don't think it was easy to see how aggressive some of those times are. Some of the runs are probably out-of-date or obsolete &mdash; if we limit to ~10 runs, maybe we would choose better ones. (Not many people are going to try to max Lucky, Treasure, or Wisdom by repeating Drok's run.) Ice Cliffs and Fronir's have to be on there, but the rest... well, not all runs are as useful to as many people.

I would also like to see a "Guide to chest running" with walkthroughs such as yours (short, clear, and usable). Pretty much anyone should be able to follow the directions to get (near) the results that we have posted.

What direction would you like to see the article (and related guides) take? — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 10:07, 5 February 2011 (UTC)


 * No worries. It's a wiki.
 * I see a few problems so far.
 * Use of running builds are going to highly sway the times people are able to attain on these, should the times be close to optimal build-wise?
 * Use of consumables. Not something I do personally, but that can also have an effect, especially if sweets are used in town for long treks to the portal.
 * Build templates. I hesitated to use them because I wasn't sure they really belonged in a guide, so much as skill/build recommendations as I've seen in other articles. Also, they are entirely up to personal preference, something that I wanted to add to my original guide, but I think page size might be exceeded as it stands as I was unable to edit it after my links.
 * Computer speed. I get some relatively good load times between zones, so what might be the best thing to do is to time the cycle time, and subtract the load time to get an absolute time spent running. However, that will be somewhat difficult to do, especially since I'm only an expert at this particular run, and somewhat at the Ice Cliffs one which is pretty straightforward (not comfortable enough to write a guide, as I've not come across three chests, however). Also, in the CoF chest run, I know that since the enemies fight each other, depending on when you start running can have a bit of an effect on the run itself.
 * As for the actual article on this. What I think makes the most sense is to give general running team builds, tips/tricks, etc on the main Chest Running page, and link to separate guides for each chest run, if we have them documented. Ideally, an external link to a video would be nice, but one might only be required to show how to flag and where to place yourself in a group of heroes, etc, while the rest of the information can be conveyed on a map. Also, the guides should be formatted the same.
 * One more note about times: Perhaps an average time given an average player and then in brackets the optimal time. For me, doing CR for my title I want the best time for my chests, because doing it ten thousand times is well, a lot. So if I looked at a page and saw, okay, the average is 2 minutes, but this guy can do it in 1 minute 10 seconds optimal (again, we should look into the computer speed note), maybe I want this one instead of the average 2 minutes, 1 minute 30 optimal run to save me 20seconds*10,000.
 * This is just a start as far as I can tell, though. -- Axis 10:34, 5 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Ah, that's a good point about optimal being of greater interest to serious farmers and average being of greater interest to casual ones. Deciding between Run A and Run B... 10s makes a big difference if you plan to do 1000 runs. Ok, that probably means we should post both an optimal time and a casual time (not sure casual is the best term, but it's the right idea).
 * The casual time should be repeatable by most anyone and not depend heavily on specific techniques/builds.
 * The optimal time should be repeatable by expert farmers and could depend techniques/builds. It should not depend on consumables, since that would defeat one of the purposes (making money).
 * The Treasure Hunter article isn't supposed to be a guide, so most details should be left out...once we have a guide, people can find what they need there.
 * I agree with your suggestion that a good guide will have general builds/techniques that apply to chest farming anywhere.
 * Give me a couple of days and I'll set up a page in my user space to serve as a draft for a chest running guide. (Or, if you prefer, go ahead and set one up in yours.) As an example, check out Guild Wiki's Item of the Week farming guide, which probably has some of the features you would like to see.


 * Thanks again for starting the ball rolling on this; I think chest running is something that is of great interest to a lot of people. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 10:59, 5 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Maybe lazy? Seriously, possibly just players versus hardcore/dedicated/serious players looking to max the title might work.


 * Another concern I have is either confirming or dismissing the negative impact of heroes/henchmen on chest loot. I've opened enough chests in my life to know that there is very little beyond superstition in heroes reducing quality of drops, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that other people thought it was something akin to normal loot scaling. Do we have evidence anywhere or at least some documentation that reasonably refutes the theory? If so, I believe that would open up folks to be more willing to seek alternate chest runs, given the ability to bring a full party.


 * As for the gain in gold. I'm not sure that's all of what people are going for. I can say with some certainty that it is a loss in funds, especially if you're only looking for the Treasure Hunter title. Also, for people who are simultaneously maxing sweets, cons might be appropriate for them.


 * I'll leave the template in your capable hands, since I'm not very quick at the wiki formatting or know all the guidelines yet.


 * I'll also continue to leave more thoughts to be discussed here, as I think of them.-- Axis 14:41, 6 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Lazy instead of casual? Yeah, I resemble that remark ;-)


 * After seeing the crazy market for Lunar Tokens (again) this CNY, I despair of convincing ppl of the power of statistical analysis over anecdotal evidence (or, as you've suggested, superstition). (1) the amount of data we'd need to prove anything conclusively is daunting; we can barely get decent data for drop rates for gift-like items (which are far easier to report systematically). (2) If people aren't convinced by what ANet has published re: loot scaling and anti-farming code (not, as most people assume, identical topics), then I doubt we're going to convince anyone about chest runs. So, I think it would be great if we could gather/publish data, I think that can be the scope of a different project.


 * re: gain-in-gold. Yeah, after I posted, I realized that was misleading. Let me rephrase: I don't think a guide should suggest that consumables are required; I also think it distracts from relying on testable/repeatable results to standardize the info. On the other hand, I am sure that lots of people think that optimal implies getting IMS by any means necessary. For now, let's stick with posting consistent times: the casual (lazy?) time should not depend on extras; the times for optimal should either always depend...or never. I'll set something up after the holiday is over and we can focus on putting together something others can use. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 18:10, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) I've made a first stab at a chest run guide, stealing for your CoF walkthrough: User:Tennessee_Ernie_Ford/Shortcuts/Guide_to_chest_running
 * Please take a gander.
 * You have explicit permission to make any changes you see fit.
 * Let's move the remainder of the convo to the talk page for the guide.

I'm trying to separate out general advice and builds from things specific to any particular run. I'm also thinking that the intro section might, in lieu of a Table of Contents, have a Table of Runs, summarizing the runs and advice (and linking to the walkthroughs below). What are your thoughts? (And please feel free to say, erm, can you start over with something that actually works? &mdash; I'm looking to help create something useful, so my ego can take a backseat to the process.) Cheers. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 18:25, 7 February 2011 (UTC)