ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/PvE/Ursan Blessing/Archive 1

Nerf Ursan are you kidding me? BUFF IT INSTEAD
what's up with 3 skills missing in this build? make it so that certain people wont need monks because I've heard people does ursan with 2 monks. what if you guys add 3 more skills maybe 2 more skill plus 1 elite in ursan build set with self healing so that people like me would start using this skill!--Ridz16 02:51, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Go back to bed, troll. --71.229.204.25 10:13, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * get some guts to register then you can talk mr. anonymous --Ridz16 02:50, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Go back to bed, troll. --71.229.204.25 02:51, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Beetlejuice's Discussion
Just to trash some of the common arguments why this skill isn't so bad in advance saving some time.
 * "This skill needs to exist because my (insert weak pve class here) does not find groups otherwise":
 * Simply not true. First of all if you want to use a Blessing for getting into groups just use Raven. With this you can easily fill a dmg slot in any elite pve area without ruining the team build for anyone else. But you do not even have to. In DoA hard mode for example you can run any class with normal skills. Well not sure if Assassin Shadow Form tank still is possible and Rangers have a hard time too, but the rest is no problem. Mesmers are the nr1 dmg dealers in DoA, pretty much any other caster class can run cry builds too, Paragons make great bips, Dervishes can tank etc.


 * "If you don't like it, don't play it":
 * If i had a choice. This skill makes group finding much faster, average runs much faster and easier, drops better. It's a win win win win situation. It's already very hard to find a balanced group in the elite areas and it will get worse.


 * "I don't think that this skill effects the game economy":
 * Well, a very good balanced group does DoA hard mode full runs in under 3h. A mediocre Ursan group too, just much more consistent and with better drops. So even for top players Ursan wins. But it gets much worse for mediocre to bad players. Preursan they did one DoA area in normal mode and if lucky succeeded and got one gem (and hopefully a lot of experience to make them better players). Now they slap on Ursan, do a normal mode full run getting 1+2+3+4 gems in the same time, plus better drops for killing 4 times the monsters and doing it without AoE. Beetlejuice 12:23, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

The theory that AoE kills reduces drops is a myth, and not a feasible way to program the game in the first place. You might want to update the main page with that. -- Armond Warblade 18:35, 23 February 2008 (UTC)


 * If you can't beat them join them. Prokiller88 23:01, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No, I want my vanquisher title to be worth something, not for everyone to have tormented weapons. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 23:02, 23 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Why should i buy a game which advertises that it offers hundreds of different skills when all i can use to be viable are 3 skills i get from one pve elite skill. I bought guild wars, not ursan wars, and i want my guild wars back :o).Beetlejuice 02:54, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes i know, i might have sounded a bit to sure about the loot penalties. Unless we get a dev answer to that topic we simply can't say for sure. But since every hard data i found about this issue strongly suggests that you get less drops with aoe kills i am inclined to belief this particular rumor. And it matches with my subjective observations too. But since they are all based on solo farming it could also be a side effect of the complex loot scaling formulas. Anyway you are right that non discussion pages in a guild wars wiki are not the place to spread rumors, i will remove if from the user page.Beetlejuice 02:54, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * This is a reasonable proposal, it would allow the skill to continue to serve what I believe to be its' intended function of leveling the playing field, but would prevent it from dominating high-end PvE. -- Gordon Ecker 03:29, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Why should you have to look for a group that doesn't use it? Granted I have been on doa/toa/ urgoz and theres people spamming ursan ranks and etc. Ursan saves time and as you know time is money so by eliminating part of the sentence, ursan is money. I have played doa with sf eles and ob tanks and those 3 hours there, I only got a few gems but I learned aggro control. It made me a better player but it took a long time for a ob flesh derv to get in and I was new to it. Now with ursan I just use it on my derv, ranked 5 norn because I usually just go on alliance runs now, and it saves alot of time. From about 3hrs to about 1.5hr. The torment weapons were extremely hard to get before they had ursan, now almost everyone has one which is what anet wanted. Doing uw/fow has also gotten alot easier. Now I haven't checked out urgoz but I still expect b/p rangers or sf eles to be spamming instead of ub because urgoz needs ALOT of aoe damage.Prokiller88 03:32, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * First of all i doubt it that anet wanted everyone to have torment weapons. While in other orpgs you get better the longer you play in gw you can easily reach lvl 20 with perfect stat weapons in a few days. While this is a very nice thing for the casual gamer it creates a void in long time motivation. In GW this void was filled with skins. Long time motivation in GW is to acquire rare skin weapons and armors (since all armors have the same stats anyway). Killing long time motivation = loosing customers. Nothing anet can really want.
 * Now to your question why i look for groups that don't play ursan. Well, that is a little bit hard to explain, because it should be so obvious I wouldn't have to. I want non ursan groups because i like to play the game. That is pretty confusing, i know. So let me elaborate. GW is a game with hundreds of skills. And the fun part is to pick the right ones from them for your specific situation, put them together on your skillbar and use them at the right time in the right combinations. Everyone only having 3 skills, all of them most effective if they are just spammed in any kind of order as fast as possible removes pretty much all of the fun of it. That is a playstyle so stuipd, i guess if i would bot it my pc would crash out of boredom.Beetlejuice 06:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You would learn a lot more about how to play if you used actual skills and builds. Even the imbagon teaches more about how to play, because the possibility of dying actually exists, and if you accidentally aggro something that can kill you, your team can't spike it down in three seconds. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 20:18, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's the same with Ursan if you aggro a bunch of hm monsters, atleast in doa and uw and fow and all the other elite missions. It requires the same amount of skill if you play the nukers in the group, just spamming sf/the other nuking skills. If you play the Tank you run up and stand there for a few seconds and wait. Which is what you have to do with ursan also because hm monsters actually see monks. Prokiller88 22:30, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Those builds take at least a small bit more skill. There is some order you use your skills to get max efficiency. With Ursan you can literally mash the keyboard to achieve 100% efficiency. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 00:04, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Another reason people take Ursan Blessing is because the Domain of Anguish is extremely unforgiving of lag, while a party with six tank/nukers with 33% speed boosts and Rebirth is extremely lag-resistant. I can't think of any way to deal with that issue other than giving the monsters in the Domain of Anguish and other high-end areas without resurrection shrines less damage and more durability or adding a brief lag "grace period" (~5 seconds for each lagging player) in which the game is "paused", which could be a pain to implement. -- Gordon Ecker 00:50, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Izzy just needs to change it so consumables and norn blessings are unusable in HM and elite areas, and dungeons, then pve noobs who need it can sitll use ursan to go through the game, but don't ruin the economy by crashing elite item prices and such. Gosu Death 17:51, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree with that, just disable the skill in the elite areas. House Of Furyan 04:30, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually not a bad idea to easily and efficiently fix that problem. I was just more careful with my suggestions because there might be a few ppl who really think that mindlessly pressing tab,1,2,3 is fun and not only talk themselves into believing that it is fun because they like the ease with which they get all those fancy new items without realizing that in getting them with ease they are not fancy anymore. And now imagine what humble mess is left if you take that away from such a lowly creature :o).
 * Anyway i would be greatly pleased by this change. It's all i asked for and much more. Beetlejuice 22:51, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I enjoy Ursans but disabling it in elite areas is a good idea.--121.45.160.119 16:25, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

ursan
Hey im Planning on liquidating a bit, and i was just wondering if you are planning on making ursans less effective(nefing:p) ... if so i think ill keep my stuff :) User 24.141.45.72 19:07, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Might I ask why he should nerf it? Nobody is forced into using it, save for a mission and even then it's only required to knock down barricades.  You have to spend/waste a lot of time farming a Title Track to make it effective.  Some people enjoy playing it.  People have the option of using it to get on teams looking for people who use it, even if their profession isn't a desired one in PvE or an area there in. Eye of the North needs to hold customers until GW2 which means keeping them playing/grinding;  to do that there are title tracks and the Hall of Monuments.  The majority will not bother taking the titles up unless there was a reward/reason to do, them doing so simply out of boredom means a game is about completely dead.  Ursan is one of several very powerful title skills that encurage people to keep playing and farming titles while waiting for GW2.   Also, if Ursan is ever nerfed because of the people not wanting others to complete or obtain game items that they have then those same people will simply start crying for the next PvE only skill to be nerfed claiming it's about balance rather than their greed and vanity. (As a side note, you showed you are wanting it nerfed for those reasons with your statement on wanting to liquidate your assets if it isn't nerfed.)  In that regard, Guild Wars in it's entirety is ment for everyone and it is a few PvE skills that help some people be able to enjoy most if not all of Guild Wars, especially with how many profession skills are close to or fully useless now. Also to that note, most people enjoy being able to play with the skills they enjoy and will change their builds when bored with them so it isn't never a matter of "Shut the F*ck up and change" as not that many people find it fun being forced away from playing how they enjoy play a Game. That doesn't mean people want insta-kill skills, it means people would rather have all skills fully or close to fully viable just as people would rather not have others try to force them to play with other players when they enjoying playing solo more.  Having a variety of choices to choose from and not being forced into one or a very few otions is what keeps PvE alive so taking away more skills/options from play will only hurt things in the long run, especially when done so for a few players vanity and greed in wanting to keep others from having what they have.   ~ [[Image:UserSabastian sig.gif|User:Sabastian]]  Sabastian  09:08, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ursan lets horrible players reap the rewards of completing the hardest areas of guild wars. In doing so, it ruins the economy and makes most PvE titles nearly worthless. Consumables do the same. And anyone who says that all professions aren't viable for high end play are foolish or wrong, or both. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 09:21, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Dont believe armond?? armbrace of truth now sells for 100k +16E.. down 20 from last month User 24.141.45.72 20:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Explain to me now that's not a perfect example of ruining the economy, please? Some of us remember when a single titan gemstone went for 100k+... -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 21:38, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There was this silly thing called Hard Mode that came out plus as time kept passing people kept playing which means more and more are gotten. Things are going to cost a lot when they first come out but as people play and time goes on they will always keep going down in price as more are found since they are not limited.  Also some of those areas where dumbed down in normal mode as well.  You are trying to blame Ursan Blessing for what Hard mode and well over a Year of being played in has done. Also, their price depends on demand and a lot are more interested in Eye of the North as it's still the newest.  As for your statement on Ursan lets Horrible players reap the rewards of completing the hardest areas of Guild Wars, people do that by leeching as well. On Gailes page someone made a post of their 'friend' going through NightFall with only starter armor and pugging it all the way.  Also, the henchmen and Heroes, dispite their flaws, can cover a bad player most of the time.  Ursan just makes it faster for them. Not to mention not ever one can spend 3+ hours a day on Guild Wars or the Wikis.  Not to mention they paid for the game so they have the right to be able to play through all of it, not be limited in what areas they are permitted to play in because they do not have the time to devote themself and all their days memorizing every skill and the area they are going to play in. The play for FUN not greed of wanting to make sure nobody can get what they have.  ;)  ~ [[Image:UserSabastian sig.gif|User:Sabastian]]  Sabastian  22:08, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Your arguement sucks. &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  22:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Nah, the arguement against the skill do however, "Nerf the skill or I'm getting rid of my items cause I want them to be LEET even after a year later!" "Nerf the skill because people are going through an area faster than they normally did!" "Nerf the skill cause I don't want others to have what I have or complete an area I have!" "Nerf the skill because it makes it to easy for me and I'm not capable of not using it!"  To touch on that, PvE can't be made over difficult which is why it's so easy even without the skill but casual players still need help sometime.  If an area is to easy the players are supposed to limit themself, take one less player or monk. It's the players choice to make it challenging for themself, if you aren't going to do so then thats your prerogative. ~ [[Image:UserSabastian sig.gif|User:Sabastian]]  Sabastian  22:27, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You know, it's called Hard mode, because it's supposed to be Hard. &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  22:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You know, Hard Mode has been a joke since it came out. ~ [[Image:UserSabastian sig.gif|User:Sabastian]] Sabastian  22:38, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You are correct that the economy will gradually worsen for the markets of things that can be gotten via grind. However, ursan has sped that up exponentially. The idea behind tormented weapons, when they were made, was that only those players who had devoted the time and effort to defeat the (then much harder) areas of the Domain of Anguish would be able to get them. Now anyone who can devote some time to casual farming can get them, given time. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 22:50, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ursan isn't some magical skill that automatically gives you all the ranks in all titles and uber drops the second you unlock it for a character. Sure, some people use it because they lack skill otherwise, but a lot of others like myself won't use it because it's just a pain in the rear and not even remotly fun.  Some like it, some don't.  You already admited that as time passes the items will drop as more and more people get them and the demand goes down, so why are you so freaked out over a few folks using Ursan to shave a few weeks off their farming time?  If it's going to happen anyway, what do you really gain by having your items worth a little more for a little longer?  Do you really want do deny other players the items they desire a little bit longer, just so that you can be vain and try to show off the ones you got in an attempt to be elite just a few weeks longer?  That's not only childish and selfish, but just rather silly and pathetic.  Innocent Depravity 14:16, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Just going to point this out: elite missions (they are even called that in game) are called elite missions because they are made for the elite. They weren't designed for the players that are horrible at playing or the ones who can't devote time/effort. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 23:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yea, but they failed when they made Hard Mode in the first place, and it's been a joke since they released it (and very late I might add). They didn't make it hard, they just upped the attack speed, power, and skill damage of the monsters because they couldn't come up with anything better, and as is it's easy to exploit the poorly done enemy AI to still farm or vanquish the areas with little to no real skill needed.  Hard Mode has never been hard, it's just an area where if you do a little looking aound on the wikis and such to find the simple exploits, or spend a little time playing with the areas yourself you can easily figure them out and then move through with ease.  It's not hard, it's just different.  Any player with any shred of skill can adapt to it and play there with ease, and lacking that skill they can look on the wikis and see what they'll need to beat the area.  Innocent Depravity 14:16, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "...devote time/effort" Devotion.  To a video game.  There are more worthwhile things in life than having a set of rare weapons.  Let's say ANet completely destroys they're economy and allows any skin to be a PvP weapon, no need to unlock with tournament points or anything like that.  Would you stop playing?  I play because I enjoy AB, GvG and HA.  The skin of whatever weapon or armor I have doesn't matter so long as it does the same damn thing.  If you would quit the game because your virtual bank is becoming worth less and less, then stop playing now and increase what's in your real bank account.  You'll be much happier with what you can buy for 100k in the real world than what you could buy for 100k in GW.  76.89.81.150 18:31, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * GW PvE fails enough said. PvP is the only thing in this game somewhat good. Antiarchangel 19:34, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Is this an attempt at a reason to not nerf Ursan? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 19:35, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol no, I don't care if they make ursan a 25 energy mending. What I'm saying is that nerfing PvE is pointless when everything works, and you can make Hard Mode into Joke Mode. Antiarchangel 07:20, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Despite what any1 says for or against Ursan.. we can all agree it Makes Bad players almost bearable (except for them in team chat) and makes Stuff easy (not to mention fucks the economy over) User 24.141.45.72 03:32, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * We all also have to consider that there are more people out there who are having a hardtime finishing missions and campaigns even on normal mode. Ursan is a great tool for those casual players to get around or get those items they've been wanting for months. If you hate the skill, then go find a guild that actually hates that skill and goes around elite missions/dungeons with no pve skill whatsoever. It just so happen that more and more casual players tend to go for what can make their lives easier and faster. It's like asking aNet to punish the mothers and the fathers who cannot devote more than an hour per week. They're the ones who are reaping its benefits more than ever, them casual gamers. If you're HARDCORE then go ahead, play with 5 skills non-pve on your bar and play with friends who feel the same. Don't punish us casual gamers because we're not too hardcore enough. Renin 06:19, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The elite areas are elite for a reason. If you can't understand that, you have issues with the game, and life in general. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 07:44, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And a game is just a game, if you can't understand that and are more fixiated on hindering the play of others just so that you can feel better about yourself, then you aparently have a lot of real life issues. If you have nothing to be proud of, nothing that makes you special, unique, or 'elite' in your own life and you have to turn to a game to have any self-worth, then you truely are a sad person deserving of pity.  Innocent Depravity 10:52, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I am an average player, nerfing Ursan in no way makes me feel more elite. But that doesn't matter. Its just dumb that terrible players can beat elite missions using this skill so easily. Like you said here, the skills shouldn't be balanced around keeping horrible players good. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 19:34, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You misunderstand. I didn't say that getting the skill Nerfed would make you feel elite, I was saying that people like Armond want to see the skill get nerfed because they don't want anyone else to be able to get the rare or expensive weapons he has, because it makes him feel less special. The skill is horrid, boring, and a real pain to bother with... but you still need some skill to use it, and even more to not only get the skill but be able to max out the title associated with it so that it's actually worthwhile.  If a player is good enough to do that, and then still willing to use a skill like that just to make farming easier, then so be it.  It's not a PvP skill, it's PvE Only, so it cannot be compared to my statements about how skills need to require skill in PvP.
 * I started playing in early 2005, and as such I had to deal with a much more difficult and different Pre-Searing Ascalon as well as much more effort to not only level up but to attain anything in the game. If I were to follow in the mentality of people like Armond then I'd be insisting that the experience from quests be cut down and the nerfs made to PvE that have made it into a joke these days, be undone so that it was once again more challenging.  While I'd like to see that (Thunderhead Keep used to be impossible to get a group for with Bonus because the bonus made it hard and teams so often got wiped out trying it, now you can walk in with a few henchmen and no PvE skills and have no issues with it at all) in some cases, I'm not whining and crying because people can get more easily now, the things I had to work harder for back then.  It's just immature.  Things change and the more time goes on and the more players around the easier things get, the cheaper things get, and thinking that you can stop all that by destroying a few PvE skills is silly.  If they would stop making PvE easier all the time, then the skills would be fine and the challange could still be there, but so long as they keep dumbing it down to make it easier for everyone, the more skills like Ursan will appear to be over-powered when they are not.  Innocent Depravity 01:49, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Once again, you are ranting, and you do not seem to know what you're talking about. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 02:50, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, you don't seem to know what you are talking about as usual. You just seem to be ranting once again, this time for Ursans to be nerfed. PvE has continued to be nerfed to make it easier, especially the older campaigns and then again when Hard Mode was released. The Elite areas really aren't Elite but rather long and simply tedious. The PvE skills aren't destroying the economy, time and new expansions/skins are making the now old skins cheaper and cheaper. The areas to earn gems for the Armbraces of Truth have been nerfed to make them easier when Hard Mode came out not to mention the Dupping issues that accured with the Armbraces a little while back killed their value, not a single skill.  Now that GW:EN is out people are wanting it's skins more than the much older skins.  Besides, if Ursans was nerfed people would then rant/whine for the other Blessings or "Save Yourselves!" or Pain Inverter and so on to be nerfed making the same claims againsts them as with Ursans.   Your problem isn't Ursans but rather players Farming items and as long as people farm prices will keep dropping as well.  Why don't you rant to Izzy about Protective Spirit as even he admits it very over powered in PvE and breaks it: Izzy Quote, "I think Prot Spirit is one of the most insane skills in GW, it breaks PvE all over the place does crazy stuff to PvP and is just super powerful."   ~ [[Image:UserSabastian sig.gif|User:Sabastian]]  Sabastian  05:02, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't pay Armond much mind, whenever he gets shown up and it's clear how wrong he is about something and he has no way to refute the points used against him, he'll just accuse you of ranting and then leave the conversation and pretend it never happened. ;)  Seems to be his way of dealing with failure.
 * You made good points though, they admitted to making normal PvE mode easier a couple times before, if he's not aware of that though I won't be surprised, he's a bit out of the loop it seems. Great point about Protective Spirit too, it's easily the most exploited skill in the game for farming and botting, yet they do nothing about it.  If people like Armond don't want excess faring to devalue their elite items, they really should go jump on to Izzy for leaving Protective Spirit the way it is, and not changing it to Target Other Ally.  Innocent Depravity 05:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

who said ursan takes skill luls, run in, spam 1,2,3 and u win! YAYAY IM SKILLED ! And with the +armor Healers boon monking has never been easier User 24.141.45.72 02:50, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Same goes with the grind: it takes no skill, just a bit of time. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 03:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think that overpowered skills should make horrible players good, but I don't think that weak professions or profession-biased areas should make good players horrible either. -- Gordon Ecker 04:00, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Good point Gordon, not to mention casual players are the ones that spend the longest times maxing the titles for the skills and it simply helps them. They don't go straight in and blow through Elite missions. At best they make it slightly easier for them to learn more about the normal areas in Guild Wars. Teh Uber Pwnzer, the same goes with farming, it's grind and the more one grinds the more drops they get and with a lot of people doing it the value of those drops will keep going down when selling to other players. The skill Ursan doesn't matter, people will keep farming and some will run bots to do the farming. Prices will keep going down as long as items remain attainable ingame and no skill will ever change that. ~ [[Image:UserSabastian sig.gif|User:Sabastian]]  Sabastian  05:02, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I also agree with Gordon. There are too many areas in the game where specific classes are just useless or far too underpowered.  If PvE only skills like Ursan can help to make those classes viable, then good, it's not a fix but at least it might keep a few of the many folks who are leaving the game out of frustration, from doing so.  The GW player base has dried up so much in the past year that I really doubt GW2 will even make it to release, but if they want to make sure they don't ever get to put it out then they should just keep pushing away the casual players and the PvE players the way they have been, since it's the PvE players who make them the majority of their money.  Innocent Depravity 05:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I hate that people seem to forget the real casual players of the game, those people who can only do one part of GoA once a day or even a week. We'll never be ELITE like Armond but we'll never be as affected with the economy either. For gamers like me, I happen to love the fact that prices do go down and "elite" missions are possible to finish (all thanks to Ursan). I'm not saying that they should leave Ursan alone but probably just scale back the damage perhaps as it does, admittedly kill the fun out of build-experimenting. Renin 06:43, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not really build experimenting that's the problem I imagine. It's just that the skill is a bit overpowered when compared to the other aspects that are available. Yes, I know Ursan is a PvE only skill. Yes, it is an elite. But no, I don't agree that it's balanced just because it's a PvE only skill when it practically trumps the rest of them by a large margin. Certainly, I do admit that the strength of each individual PvE skill varies wildly from useless to totally overpowered that you'd be stupid not to run it in PvE. I don't really mind people using the skill but I'd like the rest of the PvE skills to have at least some level of consistency especially since there's a lower number of them and PvE only. PlacidBlueAlien 17:12, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Innocent, Sebastion: You're both assuming I have no problem with those other skills as well. I do; I think PvE skills and consumables have ruined the game's PvE by taking out any semblance of challenge, and therefore making it not fun. I can take my Warrior or Paragon, load up on three necro heroes (or, since my paragon doesn't have Livia yet, a monk, a bsurge, and a physical), bring SY, TNTF, and ward honor, and literally c-space my way through the game. I only have to call targets once an hour. I've been doing that all through nightfall, including the Realm of Torment, for the past few days. When Nightfall first came out, Gate of Madness was considered nigh impossible to complete. Now, with just PvE-only skills, I'm completing it while barely paying attention to the game.

Yes, I think prot spirit is problematic as well, but not to the same extent as the PvE-only skills (especially ursan, which everyone knows about. At least with SY and TNTF it requires a bit of brains to realize how to maintain them). The fact of the matter is it's far easier to inflate the economy by flooding it with valuable items by running ursanway than it is 55ing.

As for the armbrace duping incident, ANet tracked down and banned the dupers and deleted the duped items. They don't affect the economy at all.

Your main arguments seem to be relatively simple - correct me if I'm wrong.


 * 1) All players should be allowed access to all areas of the game so they can fully enjoy it and get their money's worth.
 * 2) Time devalues items, not just the skills. In fact, I'd go so far as to say you think time devalues the items more than the skills.
 * 3) I ask for nerfs on only a few of the problems, and leave the argument when the flaws are pointed out to me.

If you don't mind, I'll address them from the bottom up.


 * 1) I ask for nerfs slowly because I know Izzy's busy and it'll take a while to even get those few suggestions implemented. As I implied above, I would absolutely love it if all the problematic skills were nerfed (I'm a prodigious 55er, but I'm seriously considering agreeing with your idea on prot spirit - it honestly hadn't occurred to me before, but I'm concerned about how drastically it'll affect the economy once 90% of people's methods of farming is destroyed), but realistically, overloading Izzy with ideas about how to fix the economy is not an option. I'm having trouble keeping up with all the current skill suggestions, and I try to devote several hours a day to this wiki; Izzy has a job, which takes up a lot of his time, and therefore has far less time to look them over than I do. If you were in his position, what would you think about seeing your watchlist flooded with suggestions on how to do your job better from people who may or may not know what they're talking about?
 * As for leaving when counterarguments are presented to me, I will admit that I have not been as active on the wiki as I would like to be, and thus have not been able to address every point thrown at me; I place the blame for this firmly upon the fact that I was recently kicked out of my college dorm and am now living with my mother, who canceled the internet plan we had instituted without telling me. This means that, along with my jobhunt (you don't think I'm allowed to stay without paying rent, do you?), I've had to rely on wireless internet from someone in the neighborhood, which is unreliable and tends to cut out at about 11:00 (as opposed to my previous habit of staying up until at least 12:30 paying attention to the wiki). I tend to think that this coincides with when they go to bed and thus shut off the main access computer, disallowing vista users such as myself from continuing to use their internet, but that's beside the point.
 * 1) I am not saying you're wrong in that time devalues items; I think you're absolutely correct (look at superior absorption runes; even before hard mode was introduced, even before factions was introduced, time took them from 100k each to 17k each). My argument, however, is that ursan speeds this process to an exponential degree, which I consider unacceptable. A month after the release of the Domain of Anguish I could have, had I had the knowledge, predicted what the economy would have looked like on this very day. (Anyone with basic economics knowledge can predict the knowledge I talk about next; specific knowledge is required to predict specific numbers, however, which is where I will be guessing conservatively.) What I would have predicted would be nothing like what we see today - I likely would have predicted armbraces going for 100k+~80e, and titan gemstones going for perhaps 60k each. Now I can head into the Gate of Anguish and see Titans going for no more than 3.5k each. And, from what I could tell from watching the game, things were going fine and dandy until EotN came out... and along with it Ursan. Perhaps I've missed something, though; feel free to correct me.
 * 2) Guild Wars is a game based on skill. If you are skilled, you will do well. If you are not, you will not do so well. Expecting everyone to be able to do everything in the game is like expecting me to be able to make a guild of random players and hold halls while simultaneously getting into the top 20 on the ladder. The game does not work like that (or it shouldn't); Elite areas require more skill than normal ones, end of subject. If something is removing that requirement for skill, it should be changed, period, end of subject. But while the SoGM bug was fixed immediately, the PvE aspect of the game seems to be long untouched.

In my opinion PvE-only skills and consumables (of any type) should be removed from the game, or at the very least disallowed in the last 20% of each campaign plus all after-campaign crusades (Urgoz and the Deep included). Following that, the Domain of Anguish should be reverted to how it was upon release; this is an area that was designed to be very difficult, and now anyone with half a brain can bring a single skill and complete it easily. Build Wars much?

Renin, I am not, by a long shot, elite. If you want elite, there are several other players who are far better examples for elites. I'll be honest: when DoA first came out I never expected to be able to get a 40/40 tormented set for my monk, and I loved it - it made it that much cooler to find someone in a pug with a tormented scythe, or shield, or whatever. Now I'm seriously considering getting my monk not only a 40/40 set, but a tormented shield for his reduce cripple shield, and a tormented shield for my paragon. I should not be able to do that with my level of inactivity; I barely log on once a week. -- Armond Warblade 20:27, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow. Prot spirit is OP. gg. -- Readem 00:09, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * +1 (oh and get a tormented shield.. they is liek sexy User 24.141.45.72 03:09, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * innocent and sebastian are dumbasses, stop ranting to hell and talk about Ursan, not about how PvE isnt based around casual play or some shit like that... shut the fuck up plz, cause ure wrong 199.235.123.238 15:38, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The rampant maturity of the average 13-year-old fanboy. It never ceases to be amusing.  ;)  As for you Armond, assuming that the above isn't just another of your ip/proxy posts, I'll try to make a response to your longwinded rant soon, just haven't the time at the present moment.  :)  Innocent Depravity 17:07, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Watch out for the personal attacks people. Let's try and keep these pages as clean as possible this time around. In fact, it would probably be a good idea to move this whole topic to the Ursan skill feedback page. --[[Image:User Brains12 Spiral.png|15px| ]] Brains12 \ Talk 17:35, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * While I agree with his sentiments, Innocent, I always log in on this wiki and PvXwiki, I make it clear who I am while logged out on the GuildWiki and I never use proxies. If I want to say something to you, I don't hide what I have to say (re: conflict about the content of my userpage). I'll thank you to remember that. Additionally, the first octet of my IP is currently (I believe) between the 60-69. range. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 20:13, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the delay, once they moved this out-of-sight and over here to be forgotten about, they also quickly removed the link to this page to try and keep anyone from finding it. I know it's just one of Izzy's ways of not dealing with things, but it's still annoying.


 * Anyway, you'll have to excuse me if users with only IP numbers who seem to follow you around with the soul purpose of brown-nosing and kissing up to you, seem a little suspicious and come across more like you just posting to promote yourself, since you already admitted to having self-esteem issues and the like, and an unnatural fixation with how you are perceived in game, to compensate for your real life insecurities.


 * I do however agree with you on throwing too many ideas at Izzy at once, because it's clear that he's not the brightest bulb on the christmas tree and he lacks a lot of knowledge about the skills and how they work (thinking you can do spike damage on an interrupt, thinking that Shatter Delusions works on any hex, etc.) so if we bombard him with too many suggestions at once he will just assume it's too complicated an issue and ignore it. It's probably too late for this now, given how involved this has gotten, but who knows, someone might be able to break down both sides for him in a way that he can understand.  Innocent Depravity 03:38, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * My feelings on this are mixed. On one hand, I recognize that Ursan now dominates all high end pve. One skill dominating like ursan does, isnt ever a good thing.  However, I dont do much high end pve, and dont like farming at all, so I am enjoying prices dropping, and im sure people that are like me, that just play low end pvp (FA, AB), and normal pve with a little HM, are also enjoying the prices dropping.

Still, for the sake of balance I think this should be nerfed.--Ryudo 02:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * If they just wanted lower prices they could just double the drops, no need to kill gameplay for that. For all those other wannabe arguments read first post in top section. I preemptively covered pretty much everything coming up in this moved section. There really is no reason for ursan to exist at all. Beetlejuice 06:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Except to make the game more appealing to the casual player, make some areas that might pose too much of a challenge for the casual player available to them, and to increase the enjoyment of the casual players as they can obtain some of the more high end weapons to enhance their enjoyment and keep them playing longer and supporting ArenaNet. ;)  Innocent Depravity 03:38, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If you make "high end weapons" available to brain dead monkeys who play 2 days for it then you can hardly call them high end anymore, don't you think? And GW already is casual gamer friendly. You can reach max level in a few days and get max stat equipment even sooner. You obviously want it to be non player friendly. Get all the stuff without having to play that stupid game at all.
 * Your argument is flawed on so many levels I do not even know where to start trashing it. Like already mentioned above, the value of an item is measured by the difficulty of its acquisition. Hand it out for free and its worth nothing anymore. So much for "high end weapons to enhance their enjoyment". And to get people "playing longer and supporting ArenaNet" (that try really made me laugh a bit, thanks for that :) you need to give them a goal. And again, with giving everything away so easily your idea just backfired again. Well, now you could say maybe the casual gamer will still play the game because it is so fun to play. Nice try, but you just wanted to promote ursan, a "click 1, 2, 3 as soon as they recharge" type of gameplay. So much for fun just playing the game. Solitaire is thrilling compared to that.
 * So let me repeat it for you again, because you are either one of the very slow kind or in complete denial because you fear someone will take away your nice new toy which makes you feel like you could play one level with the big boys: There is not a single reason for ursan blessing to exist other than destroying gameplay and ruining game economy :o) Beetlejuice 05:32, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * LOL, just because you don't have a valid argument against my statements, you don't have to just blow hot air and make up ridiculous exaggerations like pretending that someone said everyone should be able to get all high end weapons in two days, it just looks bad on you when you can't come up with any better defense. In lue of that, I'll ignore the majority of your comment there, but I will mention again that I personally hate Ursan, I won't use it because it's dull and not fun at all, and I have enough skill to have played through all the campaigns multiple times without needing any such gimmick.  However, it provides options for players, some players might think it's fun.  Some players who aren't that great and who are playing a class that's been nerfed so hard that it really can't do much in an area unless the player is exceptionally skilled might actually find Ursan to be fun, despite it's simplicity, just because it allows them to play past an area they might otherwise not be able to.  People should not have to play for years to ever afford any of the high-end items, that's just too excessive and causes people to lose interest long before they have a chance to obtain them, and by then the items they were after have dropped over time anyway and something else is the new chase item.  Innocent Depravity 20:40, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Innocent, I think you ought to be more cautious in your choice of words and accusations. I had no problem finding this section once it was moved; it certainly wasn't "hidden" or "covered up", the link was clear to anyone who would look for it and the move was logical. I do not appreciate your baseless accusations that I have low self-esteem, or that I try to make up for it on wiki and in game, or your implications that I'm using various IPs to make myself look good; I call them accusations because I can't for the life of me tell where you would have thought I would have said such things. On a similar note, personally attacking Izzy isn't a wise move for someone in your situation (where your arguments are already in doubt). -- Armond Warblade 07:35, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I based those assumptions on your pervious posts that would lead one to believe such things, and when they were questioned as to if there was any truth behind them (in a few instances) you chose to ignore the statements and not respond. This only further make them seem true, as if they are you would probably not want to be confronted with such information and would simply ignore it and pretend it was never said.  Your doing so and not defending against such things, or attempting to explain them is why I continued to think them.  Anyway, the link was there for a very brief time, defiantly not long enough to be effective for most people.  Lastly, I don't make personal attacks, and I didn't on Izzy either.  I may have pointed out some obvious facts about him that are not flattering, but where is the attack?  Innocent Depravity 20:40, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Armond has a point, Innocent. Please don't resort to personal attacks. &mdash;Tanaric 15:08, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I won't, no worries. :)  Unless pointing out mistakes that Izzy has made and that can be easily seen on this Wiki is perceived as an attack, which I cannot see how it would be, and in light of those mistakes I think anyone would question his competency for his position.  Still don't see how that's an attack though.  Innocent Depravity 20:40, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Do us a favor and follow the spirit of the policy instead of the letter; yes, me saying "you're obviously not the brightest bulb in the box because you don't understand why you're violating policy" isn't an attack, per se, but it's offensive. Also, I'd like it if you could point out to me where these conversations about me are, as I can't remember them... though I will admit I have a tendency to leave a conversation once it passes a certain level of dumbness. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 04:04, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I just have one point to make, please don't claim it is "ruining the economy" that phrase is very incorrect. It is ruining the armbrace/gemstone economy, fine, it is changing the economy as a whole, fine. It certainly isn't ruining it. -- Lemming [[Image:User Lemming64 sigicon.png]] 15:13, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Its ruining the economy for those who farm ambraces and the like and like to sell them for super high prices. For the casual buyer, its providing much needed drops in prices and making the economy easier for those without great wealth.  Ruin is subjective, but change is about all that can uncontroversially be claimed.  - T HARKUN  [[Image:User_Tharkun_sig.png|16px]] 20:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You underestimate how severely these affect the economy. They also hit the ecto market - go to ToA and count the number of ursanway groups you find there. Last time I went I found five of them in the course of selling three ectos. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 04:04, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ursan turns vanity items into some of the most common items, how is that not ruining the economy? Don't argue "casual gamers need them too!" as the places you get them from are called elite missions for a reason. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 07:58, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

?--Relyk 02:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

134.130.4.46's Discussion
To elaborate: Ursans teams are uncounterable because ursans use no spells, no attacks and can't be spiked, so don't need protective enchantments. The only thing that can disable an ursan is Diversion/DShot. Nothing can effectively mitigate Ursan damage (it even comes in 2 packets as if explicitly designed to pierce Reversal and Prot Spirit). The only thing that can kill an ursan is DPS.

This makes ursanway the mindless, foolproof means of choice for everything that can't be beaten by randomly inviting people until your group is full (read: Hard Mode). So it's randomly inviting ursans until your group is full now. And THAT is my main gripe with ursan: Since ursanway works everywhere, it lessens the enjoyment and often removes the the possibility (no-one else wants to play non-ursan) of sitting down with a group of players, discussing skills and whipping up a team build for Hard Area X. Which, for me, was the main draw of GW.

Btw: if you want to tone down ursan damage (I won't object, but don't think that is the main problem), make it armor-respecting instead of lowering the numbers. 134.130.4.46 11:03, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I aggree, ursans should just gtfo because they ruin the game's economics, which means my cool-looking tormented shield is dropping in price :(. Dark Morphon  (contribs)  16:56, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's that exact attitude that causes so many issues in this game, and that has been made fun of so much on this page. ;)  Innocent Depravity 03:39, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I like the idea of making it an attack skill. That would already do a lot in toning it down for use in high end areas. Beetlejuice 05:43, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. This attack goes right through blindness and any form of blocking stance/enchantment. 2x75 on a 3 recharge. Not only that, the 3 other Ursan skills have very good synergy and offer powerful damage and utility. This blessing has so many balance problems, it is not funny. --Longasc 12:07, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If you make it an attack skill, though, it can easily be abused by wielding a scythe. It would have to be limited to one hit, or something like that. [[image:klumpeetsignature.jpg|19px]] Klumpeet  .talk .<font color = "#C09F1C">cont . 16:42, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Good catch, thanks. Shouldn't be hard to implement, tho. 134.130.4.46 06:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I have seen and been in Ursan groups that have failed, time and time again. It is not foolproof nor uncounterable. It's not like you can throw a team against 7-8 mobs and they just brush it off or anything. There are even better builds to run! If run right balanced is faster and stronger so if you're going to nerf something just for not being hard to play you have a long way to go. 74.229.66.241 19:56, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure ursans aren't invincible and sure there is always better builds for a given area, but "it should be possible to do anything HM and not fail, even with horrible players" certainly isn't a valid position. The problem is ursanway works everywhere, with extremely few exceptions. And it's extremely easy to play. So, it's becoming extremely difficult to find players willing to actually play the game the way it was intended advertised. 134.130.4.46 06:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I admit that i have never been on an Ursan team, but still use it while H/h'ing dungeons and, for what i have seen: Energy denial can (and usually will) stop me. Reversal of damage (be it for healing or damage) will stop me. Health degeneration will stop me. This usually is not a problem when having a prot+healing monk in your team, but i seriously doubt you will have the same luck if everyone in your party goes ursan. The skill is great against melee mobs, sure, but can be easily countered by tossing a few enchanters or necromancers and letting them hit you were it hurts. Also, the game has been little by little become balanced so skills as these aren't really overpowered. Changing (or removing) it would mean going back again and modifying skills on all the game again (Thirsty River with only Prophecies skills and no heroes, anyone?). As i see it, it would be better to ask for "making X zone harder" instead of "making x skill less powerful".--Fighterdoken 20:10, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You are actually making my point, only you don't realize it ;) I think Ursan is ok if you're a sole ursan in a regular team. The problem is when you assemble a team of only ursans (and healing). Reversal of Damage (see comment on Reversal of Fortune) and Degen is simply DPS, which I acknowledged as the only counter to ursans. If you've got problems with energy denial, you're probably not running a high energy set. And even if you are, that energy denial consists of a bunch of mesmers spiking you out of form the moment you aggro (with esurge/burn), it won't matter for the other ~4 ursans, and it won't matter afterwards, since the monsters will never again manage a coordinated spike. As for balancing, I'm explicitely concerned about what ursan teams are doing to build variety. I'm not concerned about DoA (or X zone) in particular. I'm not concerned about economy. So how would changing a single zone accomplish anything (or be relevant, tbh)? Oh and everyone please go have a look at any eotn outpost right now (double points weekend) and count the ppl looking for hm ursanway and those looking for hm non-ursanway. And then guess why ursanway is a problem. 134.130.4.46 06:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Monks are the counter to degen. All good teams should have a couple. They make ursans invincible. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 00:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the biggest problem with Ursan is simply the +Health and armor. It's permanant pre-nerf Melandru with free armor to go along with it. It goes even higher since an Ursan's attributes are completely free. You can run full Survivor insigs with 0 energy probs and spec into a shield for more armor. At that point, add 2 healers of some sort and your team is invincible. You can easily reach 800+ hp with this. That's simply way too damn much. Bad players can be reckless with aggro and still win. Decrease the +HP and armor so braindead casters can't mindlessly go in melee and be in no danger of dying. Ursan strike should only receive a minor damage or recharge nerf. There's too many reasons why this skill should be toned down but I think the +hp/armor is the biggest prob. When a normal team sets up for a hard area, a few players usually bring some support and defensive skills to help everyone out. Those kinds of tactics and thinking are not needed at all with an Ursan team because 2 monks can easily keep up heavily armored 800+hp players. If you have any Ursan warriors, you can bump that up to 1000+hp. We all know that Anet wanted to encourage PuG'ing, and limiting players to only 3 heroes was one of their ways to do it, but Ursan wasn't the way to go. P A R A S I T I C 20:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Economy
Why is this particular point still being talked about... As I've mentioned in more than a couple of places, the economy is completely normal. When there's more of something in ciruclation, it's cheaper. When there's less of something, it's expensive. Ursan Blessing is no different than godly 55/600 farmers, only UB is more team-based farming. Which is how GW should be.<BR> The skill is fine and PvE-only. I fail to see the problem.-  Vanguard  19:09, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Except this lets tons of bad players able to beat DoA which makes torment items so common that they're not really considered elite weapons any more. Guess what, DoA is labeled an Elite Mission when you enter it. Guess what, Elite missions were made for the elite.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 20:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * That would've been fine if the way guildwars works was different. Many players couldn't play this mission simply because of the fact that many groups required experienced players who have already done DoA or required constant procedures that weren't quite fun. With the Ursanway, people who aren't good at this game can still experience this mission, at the cost of consumeable items which are the roots of all "evil" here. And i don't see whats the problem with more people getting high-end weapons, they are only skins and most people don't even care about other people's items. Only their own items is what matters to the most. When you think that someone else enjoying their game will hurt your elitism, you're the one wrong when thinking in such manner. I do agree that Ursanway is overpowered in a way that almost no other way is played and that it requires no effort. The best way to fix these problems is to drop the consumeables which make this mission far too easy at a fraction of the cost thats gained in it. SniperFox 22:37, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * This just sounds like elite players want to condition the game so where only they can play the best of places. I might be a couple steps above casual myself but I don't want to be shut out in part of the game just because of build, class, whatever.-  Vanguard [[Image:User-VanguardAvatar.PNG]] 23:37, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * @Fox: High-end items from elite missions wont be high end much longer due to Ursan. There needs to be high end items people feel like they need/want to keep them interested. Once they get what they want and don't have anything to do, they'll quit. Is that what you want? But thats not the only problem, Ursan is also destroying gameplay. The game was always based off of skill > time (i.e. your skill is what matters, not how much you grind). Ursan is the exact opposite: you grind the titles (sure it doesn't take all that long, but it still takes a bit and is grinding), then you press 1, 2, 3 and you don't die while dealing massive damage. The players who use Ursan are likely to never become better players.
 * @Vanguard: Ya know, they are called elite missions for a reason. They weren't designed for horrible players to be able to beat. Also, I am not an elite player trying to plot against the bad players. I am an average player. I have never beaten DoA or even tried to (excluding some epic failures Tycn and I had trying to do it with heroes), I only have one set of 15k armor, and my rarest item is my Gloom Shield. Yet, I still ask for it to be nerfed.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 00:05, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * My last statement still stands, excluding you. Sounds like E-Peen boosting to me, I see nothing wrong with seeing an average player carrying around rare items.-  Vanguard [[Image:User-VanguardAvatar.PNG]] 00:11, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * But.. but.. how can I feel good about myself if I don't have things others don't? - T HARKUN  [[Image:User_Tharkun_sig.png|16px]] 00:36, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Go re-evalutate your life if you need a game to make your elitism justified.-  Vanguard [[Image:User-VanguardAvatar.PNG]] 00:38, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * If all the average players were holding torment weapons, they wouldn't be rare. Also, do unskilled workers in real life get paid as much as those who aren't? I think not.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 04:50, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * No, they wouldn't be rare. But things without a maximum global limit will never remain rare.  And you're not making a case for why rarity matters; your argument seems to hinge on an unspoken assumption that we want rarity.  And bad analogy: if you provide a technology which allows anyone to do the job (as we have seen time and again in our technological age), you don't need skilled workers to do the job.  And GW isn't a service industry or type of job where "skill" per se is needed; in theory, everything is doable by everyone.  At least, that's how I think of the game.  Granted not every build can do something, and not everyone will have the same level of success, but I've never heard of an Anet policy of attempting to discriminate anywhere based on anything.  (not to say that ursan is good.  I'm just saying that your argument is weak) - T HARKUN  [[Image:User_Tharkun_sig.png|16px]] 06:19, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * @Vanguard: Sorry, but you are just wrong. Pre ursan a very good group did hard mode full run in under 3h while bad players needed 3h or more for one DoA area in normal mode alone. Now they can easily do a full run in under 3h themselves, thus gems come into play much faster (since bad groups are many and good groups are rare). Saying that this doesn't affect economy is delusional at best.
 * And why is that bad? Because in games like this you need rewards to give you a goal to work for (especially if gameplay is so boring like when playing in UB teams). And in a game where level means nothing, weapon stats mean nothing, armor stats mean nothing if you make rare skins common and therefore mean nothing too you don't have much left. Beetlejuice 11:15, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Late reaction: Okay, stuff comes quicker. There's still plenty of satisfaction to be made from getting gems and getting whatever gems make (Vabbian Armor, mayhaps)-  Vanguard  11:17, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Teh Uber Pwnzer's Discussion
no1 cares about pve balance at all,most casusual gamers will never go to elite missions and since its a stat based game and items with max stats can be obtained for nothing it doesnt matter. leet skin stats = shit skin stats. no1 cares. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.137.125.116 (talk &bull; contribs) 04:25, 10 March 2008 (UTC).
 * People do care about PvE balance, but they generally only care about balance between professions. As for "normal PuGs", they generally consist of one tank, 2 monks, 3-5 nukers and 0-2 others, IMO the only reason that isn't generally seen as a problem is because people are used to it. -- Gordon Ecker 05:32, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * This is basicly what I think needs to be done, just add hard mode and consumables onto the list. And to 75.137.125.116, if no one cares about PvE balance, why are there people complaining. And so what if my tormented shield has the same stats as a tall shield. There is a difference still, mine looks awesome, and it took me a long time to earn, a tall shield can just be foud anywhere. Prestige items aren't just 'another skin', or at least they didn't used to be, now thanks to ursan blessing, noobs can spend 1 night running through DoA and have enough gems for their own tormented items, and they're more or less worthless now Gosu Death 18:54, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * They nerfed TNTF, Seed of Life, Intensity and Elemental Lord. Apparently PvE balances is a concern. However I'm pretty sure that 5 people loading just TNTF onto their bar didn't allow me to clear DoA HM like Ursan Blessing. Guild Wars at one point in time was about skill over time, yet to make Ursan BETTER you have to GRIND. WOW! PvE skills were the worst idea ever. As anyone could predict they were going to be so powerful that everyone has to run them or else they can't get into groups. Gee, what a surprise that PuGs are being dominated by an overpowered PvE only skill. Hell, even so-called elite guilds and alliances use it now. Actually I find that part funny that these so called elite pve guilds use Ursan, guess those people weren't all that 'elite' afterall eh fellas? I feel sorry for all the players out there reduced to using this Ursan BS just to play the game because PuGs won't accept them otherwise. --Racthoh 00:20, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Some PvE skills, like Critical Agility, Summon Spirits and Eternal Aura are actuall well designed: they deal with an issue that makes the profession balanced in PvP, but results in long waiting times in PvE (or, in CA's case, helps inexperienced players by compensating their weaknesses a bit). Ursan Blessing however, outclasses just about any warrior build all by itself, and most warrior builds already are relatively strong. UB increases the damage and defense even further, and makes it all unblockable. Nicky Silverstar 08:03, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

if ursan was a pvp skill i'm sure izzy would read this page 189.70.160.137 00:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Really,im getting a little tired about some people saying ''When ursan is out,EVERYONE GETS TO PLAY! YaY!'' Obviously this is pure bull. the only people who gets to join these PuGs are people who are high ranked ursan ursan.its lame that you´re not ALLOWED to have a build based on tactics.Furthermore,you dont need to be skilled anymore to join a ursan team. HOWEVER you have to grind like hell to make you´re rank high enough to be let in. everyone wants ursans or you will get kicked. now,what happend to that statement when everyone gets to game when ursan is out in pve Ursan makes good builds look bad. And to all these people who say its pve,balance doesnt matter Well,it does here. One skill dominates over all the builds. making it nearly THE only build in high end areas.Which matters <.<83.249.119.162 12:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

So, where's the Nerf?
This one skill has totally reshaped elite areas and high end areas, also rep farming in Eye of the Norn, am sitting in Olafstead right now and the local chat in spamming "Lf ursan this" "lfg ursan pm" etc etc. Same is all over the show, where the hell is this nerf. The more and more time goes past the more and more people are thinking Arenanet doesn't give a flying hoot about PvE, and if that's the case please be aware that people are really getting sick of your attitude and are leaving. 118.92.12.97 19:37, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Just give up...
There is never going to be a nerf of Ursan Blessing. Why would ANet care for unbalanced skills in PvE? Ursan doesn't make anyone inferior to someone else, except the monsters in PvE. Everyone in PvE has the same prerequisites as anyone else does. Has there ever been a skillchange that was done due to PvE? Not even Protective Bond was nerfed beacause of overuse in PvE. Maybe Spirit Bond, but that skill worked to good in PvP to. --Treasure Boy 00:31, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually it gives heavily armoured professions (warriors, rangers and paragons) a huge advantage over assassins, dervishes and non-monk casters. -- Gordon Ecker 00:38, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * If they do nerf Ursan, it wouldn't be the first PvE skill to feel the sting. Seed of Life got nerfed pretty much into extinction. Although, at this point I think it would take something massive for the to kill Ursan.--Pyron Sy 00:48, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Seed of life got nerfed into a nicely balanced skill that is still mandatory (and arcane echoed) in DoA tank&spank groups, still very useful outside tanking groups and nearly always on my monk bar, wherever I go. It's just not perma-invincibility anymore. And therefore, it's a great example of a good balancing PvE nerf. Just the thing that ursan needs. 134.130.4.46 15:33, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

i would LOOVE if they killed ursan :D. and if you´re saying that PvE skills doesnt matter at all,please tell me why there is nothing to fear and seed of life got nerfed? :)83.249.119.162 12:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

TNTF and Seed of Life were nerfed. The entire Domain of Anguish was nerfed (though that was mostly because a lot of people couldn't comprehend the use of a paragon for party defense). I would say that yes, PvE gets an update every now and then. I'll agree, it's not often, but it is there. -- Armond Warblade 18:20, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Just start saying Ursan is linked to real world gold sellers and Anet will get off its butt to fix it. Right now people are going on that 'noob' (never thought I would use that word) players are beating elite or hard areas with ease, the 1,2,3,4 button excuse, but that hasn't moved Arenanet.  Now, if ursan was helping gold sellers... well, that'd be an entirely different story... 118.92.46.25 09:35, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Anet just doesn't care at this point, about anything. It's gotten to the point where not only is there a PvP and PvE divide, but now the PvErs are divided over PvE only skills. What a joke. GW2 is all they care about at this point; I guess if GW3 is ever announced I'll stop playing GW2 because I know any support the game had is going elsewhere.

At this point I'd settle for a response, that's it. But no, apparently people buying gold to play dress up is a far bigger concern at the moment. Maybe if you people stopped giving the fanbase reasons to buy gold (filling the hall of monuments for GW2 stuff, stupidly rare stuff from the Zchest, money titles) then you wouldn't need to devote all of these resources to shutting down the gold selling industry. Frankly if someone wants to buy gold with real world money I don't really care and it really has absolutely 0 impact on the way I play this game. So you've shut down a site, and banned some bots, stop the presses. Johnny Nobody sitting in his parent's basement can't use his credit card to buy chaos gloves THAT IN NO WAY ALTER HIS PERFORMANCE OR ANYONE ELSE'S WITHIN THE CONFINES OF THE GUILD WARS UNIVERSE. That is the priority of the guild wars' staff it would seem, not people pressing 1 until their index finger is numb from clearing out the most difficult areas within the game. Areas that I'm sure took a lot of time to create in order to challenge the best players to reap their rewards. Afterall in a SKILL-BASED game that would be ideal. The people that GRIND their norn title to max however are the ones who enjoy the spoils of this game. Skill over time? What a myth.

Sorry if I went off on a tangent there. I really just can't believe that anyone would allow PvE to become an even bigger joke than it already was. Then again the PvE playerbase is pretty terrible, unable to adapt or use common sense. It's a shame these idiots aren't being left behind at Thunderhead Keep, Eternal Grove, or Gates of Madness anymore. Instead able to coast through the game with the use of their "1" key, the occasional "2", and maybe even "3". 3 years, and this is what it has become. Truly pathetic. --Racthoh 07:46, 9 April 2008 (UTC)


 * You know, I think you've got a point. I'm gonna go give WoW a try; at least the devs there have a semblance of balance knowledge and how to make PvE challenging. It's pretty damn sad when a game as grind-based as WoW, and with as many variables in levels and accessible equipment, is more balanced than a game that was designed from the ground up for PvP, and even though you grind a lot more in WoW, at least it gives you a bunch of varied stuff to do as you do so. In GW, if you want to do the high-end stuff, you grind ss/lb and norn or agent, depending on if you abuse paragons or ursan. In WoW, if you want the high-end stuff, you spend a lot of time learning to play your character and doing challenging things. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 23:37, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I SOOOO want this skill to be nerfed to hell. (but it really doesnt matter as im usually an ele which people still want :P) 71.33.117.163 03:11, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * So, since you people want to limit who can go where, you want this skill gone. Assassins never got into elite areas.  How would we fill the hall of monuments, how would we get the stuff without farming, how would we enjoy these areas, etc.  If the response is "make a monk/ele/other popular class", then you need to wake up and realize that not everyone enjoys spamming Meteor Shower/Searing Flames or healing.  Now, if they finally make it viable to have a sin, mesmer, or other disliked class in these areas nerf ursan.  Until they make those areas available to all classes normally, this skill should stay the same. --Kalas Silvern 09:30, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

yeah, just give up as if this skill is the only thing that's really overpowered in PvE, alot of people dont even bring resurection skill.. because we got scroll of resurrection! I dont even team up with groups anymore when I vanquish HM because we got powerstone of courage! there are alot of consumables out there that if you combine it all you're even powerful than ursan..either they nerf this skill I could care less, i dont even use norn blessing.--Ridz16 02:44, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it's not the only thing really overpowered, but it is the thing most prominently ruining (as in making you unable to find a group not playing ursan) hard mode. If a.net wants to hit cry of pain and consumeables at the same time as nerfing ursan, I'd love that. But, at the moment, we're most concerned with ursans. As for the "just give up": yep, i'm close to. The only thing keeping me in the game right now is my friends list. And forget about GW2.. since they refuse to fix glaring issues with GW1 now, they'll most likey be no better with their next game. 134.130.4.46 15:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't let the door hit you on your way out.-  Vanguard [[Image:User-VanguardAvatar.PNG]] 15:34, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * After realizing that Ursan is just a retarded marketing tool, I am close to just giving up as well. Why would ANet get rid of something making them so much money? If you don't understand what I'm talking about, it this: if you want a group for an Elite area, you have to have Ursan (if your not a monk at least). Where do people get it? GW:EN.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 23:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I play Guild Wars less and less now most of my time in game is just chatting now, Arenanet is too focus either on PvP, Gold Sellers or Guild Wars 2. The only part that they're focusing on for PvE is the gold sellers, trying to get rid of them so they don't hurt the economy... what a joke.  But, this is what I come to expect from Arenanet.  I paid for and play Guild Wars PvE, I've tried Ursan, I use it in challenge missions with Guildies to get armor upgrades for heroes for players HoMs, I tried it in explorables and missions, used it once, got so sick of the 2-1-3-1 spamming I used Totem of Man and have never used it since for a non-challenge mission, which isn't much of a challenge anymore.  People talk about how assassins or other professions aren't used so much in elite areas and that Ursan gives them a chance, so now those without GWEN are totally removed from the picture because they can't possible use Ursan.  They either have to buy GWEN or find those remarkable few who can't have Ursan or a HB monk as a requirement to party with.
 * This level of inability is something I know come to expect from Arenanet and I hope they learn not to emulate it into Guild Wars 2. 203.109.186.49 01:24, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The point about needing GW:EN is valid. I feel sorry for those who have not been able to get a group due to Ursans.  On the other hand, I care more about all the Assassins, Paras (pre-PvE skills, TNotF and SY have given them a place), mesmers (pre-Cry of pain and consumables), ritualists, etc. that would be unlikely to be used if it wasn't for Ursan.  As I said above, if they fix elite areas so all classes have some viable way to get in, they can nerf Ursan.  However, the fact that people are mostly running Ursan doesn't mean there aren't other builds- it just means you need to form a group that uses those other guilds. An example of something being made accessible- consumables let mesmers nuke with Cry of Pain-isn't it a good thing that they can now do something to make people take them in high end pvp?  Or would people like to go back to 1 Obsidian Tank (War, Ele, maybe derv) per group, and then only allow eles, monks, and maybe, maybe necros?  Until they fix elite areas so that any person who is good at their class can be useful/get a group, Ursan should stay as is. --Kalas Silvern 03:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Kalas: Elite areas are supposedly elite for a reason. Players would still be able to beat the elute areas using Ursan if it were nerfed a reasonable amount, they would just have to think while they're doing it. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 15:21, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I realize that they are elite for a reason. However, when bad balance makes it so that many classes have no viable way to get into groups for them, something is wrong.  Ursan seems to be a way that they can get in and at least experience it.  And people here aren't calling for a reasonable nerf- they want this skill dead.  As I said multiple times, make all classes viable for these areas when the player is skilled, then you can do whatever you want to Ursan.  Until then, please leave it alone. --Kalas Silvern 00:43, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Cause A Little Mayhem's Discussion
I think, without totally killing the skill, this would reshape Ursan into more of a fun PvE only skill, basing a lot of my suggestions on what is currently already in the game. Ursan, to me, when thinking about it, seems like a good "make you a warrior for a short time skill". Ursan at the moment is too much, and elite areas and other places are still hurting, the old requirements are now removed and placed with the "Ursan requirements", so basically now you either have to use Ursan (sucks if you don't like it or want to use it) or you now have to hang around waiting for others who don't use Ursan to come along.


 * "You can't fix elitism by replacing it with elitism", Arenanet cannot fix the profession based groups in DoA, UW etc by providing one skill that effectively removes the 'elite challenge' from the 'elite missions' or 'elite areas'. Guild Wars was supposed to be about your skill, about how you made your build... now it seems it's all about one skill: Ursan.

I'll post my suggestions for the skills later. So what do you think? Cause A Little Mayhem 04:41, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * (copypasted from my talk page) While I like the lowered armor, health and increased recharge time, I dislike that your version completely gets rid of the profession system. Btw, Ursan starts recharging when it ends, iirc it also clears all the skill disables when it ends. I also like turning the bear attacks into attack skills instead of just skills (if thats what you meant, I just woke up and am tired so I cant completely tell), this gives it some actual counters.
 * Coming up with a solution that rids profession discrimination but still keeps the profession system and balance in PvE will be hard, but there has to be one. I personally dislike that you must have Ursan or you get kicked more than profession discrimination.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 23:42, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * thanks for the input, just throwing ideas around. It will be difficulty to find a nice balance with it, I criticize Arenanet a lot for putting it out there in the state it is, planning doesn't seem to have really been done with it.   If they aren't going to seriously balance this skill they need to bring in "Ursan killers" into elite areas, HM don't really give a hoot about in standard PvE ( consumables already make HM obsolete), something that is designed to mess with parties reliant on Ursan.  Just like how they brought in those popups with Render Enchantment in UW (I think it is)
 * With the removing of profession was put out there as Arenanet probably wouldn't bar it from areas, it would involve coding that they probably just don't want to do. Increase the casting time of Ursan, which currently has would would do a lot and a duration would be better as wel, at least the AI has a decent chance with interrupts and other counters.  I would like to see the attacking skills be treated as attack skills, so blind and other counters work and also change its damage type.
 * I actually believe that this is exactly like they planned it. What better way is there to sell a product if every group requires you to have a certain something from that said product. This is also the exact reason I believe Anet will not nerf it.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 04:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * But does Anet really want to be known for that? Supposed to have some top people in their group... is this really the best they got? Cause A Little Mayhem 14:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Reading your proposed skill description, I think it looks a little harsh. Why punish warriors above all others for using this skill? You keep the energy gain from SR,ES,and Leadership, but don't allow warriors to use their inherent higher armor? Why? As far as I'm concerned, Ursan should only be viable for the melee professions. Casters should be able to use the other 2 blessings if they think that using them would help. And the whole 120 second recharge is much more violent to the skill than it is to dervish forms. Eternal Aura ftw? I think that a higher recharge and lower damage/buffs might be okay to cut its effectiveness, but some of your suggestions don't make sense. At least make it 90 armor max and give it a 30-45 second recharge. Ashes Of Doom [[Image:User_Ashes_Of_Doom_ursansig.jpg|Talk]] 18:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Nerf Ursan? Please don't.
I'm a primary Mesmer, always have been. My Mesmer can do anything that any other professions can with Ursan Blessing. Please don't make it unusable again. Idiots scream "oh no, it's so imba, nerf gogo", but only because they're probably not r10 norn. It's easier for players, PUGs are way easier, monks love it due to the extra armor, don't nerf it. Or nerf it a little bit but still make it universally usable. 59.100.97.39 09:08, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * What amazes me is that people just complain that PUG's are bad that in an elite mission you should ALWAYS go with friends/Guildmates because of the level of synergy between the team. Now people complain that they can't find a decent PUG because of a skill that enables a group of estrangers go to a mission and do it with certain success. If you can work on this mission before this skill was created then you should at least got a group of friends or people you meet often in the mission outpost. Apart from the fact that some guys want to sell elite skinned items with prices a casual gamer can only dream to have, I don’t see any sort of problem with the people running a skill or build that enables some quick and fun playtime.Shiin Zu 19:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That's the point though. And most classes still have problems, even with a guild group.  If changes are made so that these areas are more friendly to ALL classes, not just Obs tank + nukers + monks, then go ahead and nerf Ursan.  Basically, make the areas take skill instead of certain classes first, then you can get rid of Ursan.  Leave it as is until then. --Kalas Silvern 09:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

...lolage... There was a time when mesmers were used in pve...when was that again? oh yeah, it was before ursan spammage. They were used for Cry Of Pain nuking,so dont bother calling them useless in PVE if they dont have ursan. Also,you people make my point for me. you are actually saying Being able to use this ONE skill lets you be able to clear those ELITE areas with STRANGERS that you dont have any SYNERGY AT ALL with Lawl? Ive decided to take a screenshot of me being at a high end area,it will be up soon. take a look at the chat then eh? x) will be spammage of ursan teams and none of other.83.249.119.162 14:13, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure, that was the case for Mesmers (except against Mallyx), but what about other professions? Assassins were generally a burden, and monks an elementalists were generally in far greater demand than other professions. -- Gordon Ecker 22:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Obviously,you havent done your homework eh? MB/DB spamming sins were more than fine in PVE. And to tell the truth.i would rather have a discrimination like that (people would want a monk more than a sin) Than how it is now. when you need EOTN to be able to play in high end areas,fun? ever thought about if you DONT have ursan? x_x83.249.119.162 07:45, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * More than fine against what? Against afflicted and Shiro'ken? Against demons and titans? Against Bladed Aatxes and Thorn Wolves? Against nuker bosses? As for profession discrimination vs. campaign / expansion discrimination, it's possible to buy Eye of the North and learn Ursan Blessing, but changing primary professions is impossible, if it was possible then I'd support a nerf to Ursan Blessing. I understand why many people would rather deal with profession discrimination, and agree that both profession discrimination and campaign / expansion discrimination are undesirable, but I personally think that profession discrimination is worse than campaign / expansion discrimination. -- Gordon Ecker 09:41, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I personally think campaign / expansion discrimination is worse. If you want to change your profession, its easy. Its called deleting a character and making a new one. Took me about 6 hours of playing time to get my most recent character to 20. What do you have to do if you are discriminated against if you don't have Ursan? Oh right, you have to shell out money. IIRC GW:EN costs $40 (I could be wrong on this figure). And that $40 is to be able to play a campaign you already own? That makes a whole lot of sense.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 13:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Your analogy is deeply flawed. Deleting a character in PvP works fine because is account-wide. But in PvE, deleting a character eliminates the skills, titles, monuments, customized equipment and most of the other progress you've made with the original character. You can make a new PvE character without deleting the old one, but you can't transfer over progress, and character slots are limited, and if you've already used all of them, you can only get more by buying them directly for ~$10 each, or by buying another campaign, which costs $20~$40. -- Gordon Ecker 22:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Assassins are fine in PVE. they can do great aoe spammage damage,running,farming and other stuff. they are far from a liabillity. even though everyone doesnt search for a assassin primrary,so what? that still doesnt justify to make a skill that makes any proffesion to some killing machine that if you have 6 off,you can kill off any area (with this single skill.) and even in PVP there is discrimination. people are running SWAY in HA all the time, which doesnt have every single prof in the team... Shouldnt ursan be in PvP then? so everyone gets to game?
 * The problem with ursan isnt the discrimination. atleast it isnt the ~only~ problem. the problem is the fact that you can put ONE SKILL on your skillbar and clear any area. Ey,do you want to go clear DoA with flare with me later? :)83.249.119.162 19:45, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


 * In the time it takes to grind out the titles, you could probably beat all 3 campaigns. I can understand that having to restart a character would take a while if your character already has a few titles, sets of 15k gear or something similar, but otherwise it would not take all that much time. Also, if a person managed to get all those titles and gear skillfully, he/she would probably find some way to overcome not being able to use Ursan to make it through everything.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 22:46, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


 * In response to the anonymous comment, assassins are a lightly armored melee profession with weak defensive skills, and that combination can cause a significant drain on monks' energy, and they can't compete with nukers for damage, they are fragile, mobile single-target melee spikers, but PvE de-emphasizes mobility, and the large groups of high-level, high-health, heavily armored monsters in PvE favor pressure over spiking and single-target damage over multi-target damage, I've played through Factions and Nightfall with all ten professions, and assassin seemed to be far weaker than the other nine. As for PvP, unlocks and PvP titles are account wide, Hall of Heroes and Zaishen Chest loot can be transferred to other characters and tournament reward points can be earned by one charcater and spent by another, greatly diminishing the impact of profession discrimination on PvP, while credit for all PvE achievements is character-specific. -- Gordon Ecker 01:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * PvE Moebius Sin, PvE Shattering Assault sin. Large amounts of armor ignoring AoE with a dash of DW and blind on the top for the DB spammer. The SA sin makes enemy defensive skills practically useless, which is great for Nightfall at least. Plenty of defense on both. Sins sure are bad!<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 05:39, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * When have those builds seen the light of day in high end areas, which are what people are most worried about? Fact is, sins don't get into those areas.  Only possible way would be perma Shadow Form, and of course, due to pvp, we'll never get that.  As has been said, equalize the professions in these areas, then nerf Ursan. --Kalas Silvern 07:34, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I should clarify my previous post, by "a lightly armored melee profesison with weak defensive skills", I meant "a lightly armored melee professions whose defensive skills are weak against casters". Physical attacks can be virtually nullified with blindness or weakness, assassins in PvE don't get killed by physical attacks, they get killed by spells and broken monster skills. -- Gordon Ecker 09:44, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I dont see how they would be any more weak to them compared to warriors and dervishes. Assassins only have 10 less armor than warriors against non-physical attacks (which weakness is greatly reduced by critical agility), the same armor as dervishes.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 12:48, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

And what sin are you running as? some suicide sin that is filled with sup runes? because getting attacked by an ele is a piece of cake for a monk to heal,assuming that he isnt a monk who tries to kill enemies with flare o_o. I agree though. the sin isnt as loved as the other classes. but its far from useless. and just because it isnt loved is NOT a reason to let out some skill that (once again,im saying this.) you can use by putting that with a couple of other guys and clear any high end area x.x. Not to mention. your whole argument is kinda wtf. casters have less armor than the sin, and you clearly stated 'physical attacks can be virtually nullified with blindness or weakness, assassins in PvE' And mobs tend to attack the target with less hp. soo...how are they easy dying actually? if that is the case then we should forbid ANYTHING with less armor than a warrior!83.249.119.162 14:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Gordon isn't dumb...and what's wrong with his statement? I think he possibly wanted to figgure out that sins aren't as good as "tanks" (not needful having a tank build) as the other melee professions. casters don't have to worry about their "caster armor", they don't have to stand next to their foes to deal damage, and in pve enemy casters are in fact often more dangerous than physical attackers. (I personally don't have the impression that sins are weaker than the other nine professions, but maybee he can explain what exactly bothers him)
 * To get back to Anons Ursan Blessing thing: Mesmers have it maybe harder to find a group because of other players underrating them, but using a party with a broken skill that makes group constellation unimportant - despite Ursan actually being a skill favoring several primary professions - is the wrong solution. I underrated this skill until now as i wasn't part of an ursan team yet, but i noticed that it's really too easy with them...they don't have to skill this skill, but making it like the other two pve elite skill blessings would be ok. &mdash;Zerpha[[Image:UserZerpha The Improver sig.png|talk]] The Improver 20:40, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Warriors can also get +16 armor from a shield, an unconditional +10 armor vs. elemental damage from Dreadnought Insignia and have Dolyak Signet, a large, long-duration unstrippable free armor buff, while Dervishes can get a huge unstrippable armor buff from Avatar of Balthazar or sustainable immunity to direct nukes with Vow of Silence. Mobs tend to focus on targets that are actually within range, and as Zephra said, casters don't need to stand next to their apponents to deal damage. If a tank is in the front, tanking the melee opponents, the casters and ranged attackers can take out those melee opponents and heal and protect the tank while staying out of range from the enemy casters, causing most of the spells to be focused on the tank, they generally only need to move within range of the enemy casters after the melee mobs have been taken out, and they often don't need to move into range of all the casters at the same time, melee attackers need to be right next to a target to attack it, which puts them within range of all the enemy casters, as well as putting them within range of PBAoE nukes like Shockwave. As for what build I was running, in Factions I generally ran Death Blossom, Blinding Powder and Moebius Strike, Death Blossom and Flashing Blades or Death Blossom and Temple Strike (heroes weren't around yet, and Factions henchmen can't inflict Blind or Weakness). In Nightfall, I generally ran Death Blossom, Moebius Strike and Lightbringer's Gaze, and was often weakened, snared, blocked or subjected to an anti-physical attacker hex in the Realm of Torment, and was frequently the target of nukes. And monks can't just heal through nukes from a level 28 boss or multiple Enraged Domain of Anguish creatures, damage prevention is needed, and most monk damage prevention skills, including Protective Spirit, only affect a single target. -- Gordon Ecker 22:42, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Unless you're an actual tank, Dolyak Signet sucks because you can't stay in reach of your foes (they do actually move a bit, ya know). Assassins have a great +25 armor and 33% attack speed enchant called Critical Agility, they also have access to Nightstalker's insignias if you want more armor. I will admit that AoB is great in almost every case, but VoS is horribad as it prevents your monks from casting spells on you as well. In areas with large amounts of block and blind, sins are the best melee class there is because they have the shattering assault chain to deal loads of single target damage and remove protective skills at the same time. They also have assassin's remedy which is a near immunity to conditions.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 23:01, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Critical Agility is great if it doesn't get stripped and blindness, blocking and snares don't prevent you from getting off a critical hit, otherwise you have to wait for it to recharge. Great Dwarf Armor, which I forgot to mention, has a third of the recharge time, a long unconditional duration, can be used by any profession (so warriors still have at least a 25 armor advantage) and can target other party members. Nightstalker's Insignia only works while you're attacking, allowing it to be virtually negated by snares. As for Vow of Silence, being untargetable by allies' spells is a significant drawback, but Shadow Form's drawback: losing nearly all Health when it ends, is worse. -- Gordon Ecker 23:59, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Shut the fuck up. &mdash;  Skakid  00:03, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * If you don't want to participate in this discussion then why are you here? If you do want to participate, why are you posting flames rather than meaningful comments? -- Gordon Ecker 00:58, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Because blatantly ignoring the problems Ursan causes in favor of "equality" is rather dumb, as is the idea that the hardest areas in the game should be able to be completed by people who just happened to be at the same place at the same time and run builds without any thought for strategy or synergy. How a person's "playstyle" got so holy and sacred in a team game, and how it's become almost offensive to ask for someone to ping their skills, I don't want to know.
 * Am I wrong? Is one's playstle not holy and sacred? I've had plenty of monks ragequit on me when I asked them to tweak their builds - along with shitty frontliners that I pointed out a few changes they could make. My own girlfriend ragequit on me when I asked her to run RC instead of HB because we were using paragons, saying she was "tired of people trying to muscle in on her playstyle" or something like that.
 * Brainless game, supported by a single brainless skill. Why am I still playing? Wait, I'm not. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 05:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

So i guess we are over with this bull that sin doesnt work? good. i understand gordons arguments but they still fail. i agree that everyone should get to play but ursan is FAR from good enough.

1. you have to grind 2. you have to run a gayass skill 3. you have to run a amazingly boring build (1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3) 4. you need EOTN well,yeah. i dont really care anymore since ive stopped PvE anyway :p 83.249.119.162 10:04, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Armond, I am not ignoring the problem. I have aknowledged the problems Ursan Blessing cause and subjectively evaluated them as favorable to the problems it solves, and I have aknowledged that others have subjectively evaluated the problems Ursan prevents as favorable to the problems it causes. I don't think that the hardest areas in the game should be able to be completed by people who just happened to be at the same place at the same time and run builds without any thought for strategy or synergy, however I do think that skilled players should be able to complete the hardest areas in the game with any profession as long as they do put thought into strategy and synergy when selecting their builds. I don't think that high-end areas should have profession bias. I think that a skilled player should be able to contribute more with an assassin than some button mashing noob can with an elementalist. I think that every profession should have a versitile selection of good builds. That's the kind of equality I want. You have made some good points, and I agree with all your criticisms of Ursan Blessing. I hate it too, I just hate profession bias more. Skakid didn't make any points or present any arguements, he or she just dropped in and told one or more unspecified participents in this discussion to STFU. As for assassins, I'm using them as an example of profession bias. I could have used an overpowered profession such as monk or elementalist as an example, but buffing assassins in PvE can be done without affecting PvP and suggestions to buff weak professions are generally popular, while nerfing monks or elementalists in PvE would also affect PvP, and suggestions to nerf strong professions are generally unpopular, at least in PvE. -- Gordon Ecker 00:24, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Monks and eles are overpowered in PvE? Uh... What? Ever heard of Paragons and Dervishes? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 18:10, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, but I've never seen "GLF more dervishes" or "GLFM have 2 paragons" in party search, and I've never been in a group that grabbed a hero or fell apart because they couldn't find enough paragons or dervishes. Anyway, based on today's developer update, it looks like a better solution to profession bias is finally on the horizon. -- Gordon Ecker 03:37, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Never said the vast majority of people playing had the skill to realize it. Just because few enough people run imbagons doesn't make them not superpowerful. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 23:16, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol. You know Armond, after month or so after Domain of Anguish came out I stood in the outpost LFGing for 3 hours. I got NO INVITES. During all this, all that groups spammed was "glf monk", "glf necro" "glf obs tank" "glf nuker". GW has ridiculous amount of profession discrimination. Warrior, monk, ele are the holy trinity with a necro thrown in. Try getting groups with paragon or ritualist or assassin. And you point your finger at paragons and dervishes as being overpowered. Monks are the most overpowered profession in the game. They heal 140 with a 5 energy 3 sec recharge non-elite spell. Damage spells don't even come close to healing spells. How can you not call a character, that can outheal 2 characters and there are 2 of them on any team, overpowered? --Spura 08:44, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Paragons making the team invincible (see this build) and dervishes taking the place as a monk whilst buffing the party with incredibly good skills all while having infinite energy (see this build) is much more overpowered.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 22:14, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * As I say, people are stupid. Just because stupid people can't use a build doesn't make it not broken. Did you know that DoA was first cleared with three heroes? And I believe five of the party members were paragons (including two of the heroes; the third hero was the D/N healer mentioned.)
 * There is indeed a stupid amount of profession discrimination. That's because, well, people are too stupid to use anything other than cookie cutter builds. You want to get rid of profession discrimination, join a guild that knows what it's doing.
 * Oh, and damage spells are horrible. I hope you realize that. Melee is where all the damage comes from; with any sort of a brain when making your equipment, you get +35% essentially unconditional damage without spending any energy or skill slots. Casters simply can't match that kind of DPS, especially once it starts getting buffed all to hell. You want to play a caster in GW, get used to being support, utility, or ineffective. (Pick two.) -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 02:19, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Cross out melee and put in physicals. Melee is only close range. Most people with a brain would know what you meant, but you never know who's reading this.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 04:53, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Rangers do DPS? Best they can do is GDW barrage, iirc. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 05:22, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

PvE will always be pve with or without Ursan = not challenging
Using the right build you can kill shiro tagachi in less than 30 seconds, explain to me where is the THINKING using normal skills? You ursan whinners are funny, very funny. That's just one example of how its easy to counter any foes in PVE since foes NEVER CHANGE BUILDS.

From what I've seen Non Ursan User(NUU) either cant afford eotn or they are frustrated not getting in any groups at all. which is what crack me up when NUU people calls Ursan Blessing User(UBU) a noob when they are the one that can't play the game unless they are in a group.

In my opinion PVE is for fun, PVP is for challenging. end of story. --Ridz16 11:57, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * If you truly think Ursan is fine the way it is, you need to (pre-censored). You're the most (pre-censored) person on the planet. It:
 * Forces all non-monks to run the same build in team groups.
 * Makes trader prices go down.
 * Makes auction prices go down.
 * Turns (insert PvE mission/area here) into a mindless farm anybody can do.


 * If you want everyone to run the same lameass bullshit, make a hammerdin and play Diablo 2. And yes, I'm complaining about it because I can't buy enigma. Lose the one-track mind please, people like you make me wish I wasn't in the same genus. ~Shard (talk) 13:04, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * sorry shard you still dont get the point im trying to make, suppose there is NO URSAN in the game, all it takes is for the "newbies" to get the hang of the game, read up some wiki and pvx builds and they can counter any STATIC BUILD foes use in pve....--Ridz16 21:30, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

LMFAO! i lolled SOOO BADLY when i read this x'D with your cute wors such as (UBU)'' and stuff XD. Well,let me just tell ya that i got every single primeval armor,completed all campains and im r10 norn. so i can get into any friggin group i want and i got eotn. and so what if you can beat SHIRO in that time? he is easy like hell. we are talking about HIGH END AREAS. not whimpyass end game bosses. go back to wherever you crawled from. btw i got enigma,hoto,dagon and alot of other stuff in diablo xD and im not using hamemrdin,im using auradin! f00!83.249.119.162 20:06, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * so basically your saying 55 monks dont work in high end areas like fow and uw? there's always a counter in any foes/areas in pve ALWAYS
 * I lol at "go back to wherever you crawled from" I am a member of Guild Wars Wiki(GWW) that's where I come from, and you are?........../yawn --Ridz16 21:26, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Using the right build you can kill shiro tagachi in less than 30 seconds, explain to me where is the THINKING using normal skills? The thinking comes from experimenting with builds to see which build actually achieves such a result, with Ursan all skills are pre-set, the player doesn't have to think about it, its already there.
 * Yes, PvE monsters don't change their build ( a fact ArenaNet could actually change but so be it), and yes they can be countered with different professions and the right build skills to counter them, yet ursan and monks remove the need to try and find counters to AI builds.
 * I have used Ursan and do have EOTN but find the skill in mention to be completely overpowered and have used it several times and cancelled out the blessing because it became so boring. It is a skill that can totally ignore the profession of the user, its attack skills ignore many basic counters and the main attack is armor ignoring with a very short recharge time and itself doesn't have many counters.
 * Ursan may be allowing previously un-popular professions into elite areas etc, but is now bring with it a new form of social requirement, if Ursan was in some way an attempt to let these previously unpopular professions in it has done it purely based on one skill. HM and Elite areas can now be decimated with just 4 Ursan users and monks (or one nerco for a MM or curses just to mix it up)
 * Due to the fact that there are now more and more users in these elite areas, for example, the economy is now being hurt for it. With more elite items in the system prices are being driven down far faster than pre-Ursan, Anet now says its working to help with economy (though this is through getting rid of gold sellers) yet while its attention is elsewhere its own skill is probably doing far more damage to the economy than a gold seller.
 * In the situation that ArenaNet is in, in between two games where more and more of its attention is on the newer unreleased product many of us are starting to wonder what the last few years were about. Even in Pve, this game used to be able skill, now its just about one skill.  203.173.242.13 05:38, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

May i ask why you brought up the 55hp build? This is a farmer build and it can NOT complete any high end area with spamming 1-2-3. it requires timing,a teammate with the correct skill/synergy (assuming that your doing something such as 55/ss). and if you compare UW with DoA,UW is the wimpness. and 55hp cant stand a chance there ;3. have you even done one of these high end areas? :S. And... your argument fails epicly anyway.  Using the right build you can kill shiro tagachi in less than 30 seconds Okay, obviously this is probby normal mode but whatever. even if thats possible..you require the RIGHT build. in ursan there is no fckn build <.< its just one skill that can clear every area. it is NOT balanced. really if you cant understand that..x_X83.249.119.162 11:38, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
 * wow... im amazed, so im guessing you also never heard of "DoA Ritway" farming team builds? lololol.. guess what, im not even gonna bother telling you which or what farming builds to use in high end areas, apparently it shows how knowledgeable you are in PVE. My argument doesn't fail the fact that I'm positive ANET or Izzy see's the same perspective about ursan. YOU think you got the best argument, how come its been several months this skill is untouch? and dont give me that "because anet wants you to buy gw:en" bullsh*t when it obvious GUILD WARS gives out $100K tournaments;
 * According to you UW is easier than DoA? that's your opinion, I find DoA easier than UW and FoW combined and that's MY OPINION. Besides, the only reason URSAN "seems" powerful is because you need a bunch of people using the same thing, this skill is useless by itself.
 * Have you done pvp? ever wonder why pvp players mock pve players with the lines of.."go back to pve" after getting owned?--Ridz16 22:34, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Many games have PvP tournaments, giving out cash prices, this is nothing new and doesn't mean much. Advertisers flock to those sorts of things so there's a lot of cash and publicity there that Arenanet can cash in on. Arenanet wouldn't be offering cash prices if it was running to a loss, it gets a lot of money from the PVE side of the game and advertising.
 * Ursan is just the tip of the ice berg when it comes to unbalance in Guild Wars, PVP can not be effectively balanced or challenging due to a negative change in PvE since both sides share the same sills. In PvE titles have become meaningless to a point, Survivor, one the harder ones to get is now easily achieved  through a dungeon, GWEN consumables are unbalanced, for what they do they either cost too little or last too long, Ursan is an overpowered skill, by itself not so much - it has no self heals and requires constant combat to be maintained, but have two or three together (which is common when in Elite or HM areas nowadays) and monks and its potential is shown. Pain Inverter can rip through any boss or enemy that has spells that hit multiple targets.
 * Arenanet leaves things for months, even years in some cases, some bugs which were reported when Guild Wars first came out are only being fixed now, same can be said about the skills of the game. There are many things left for ages, Ridz, doesn't mean they're right or balanced.
 * Why do people mock PvE'ers in PvP zones, because they think they're superior in someway. PvPers seem themselves above PvE, just because of the differences between the two, doesn't mean anything, it only means something to the PvPers, Arenanet will not actively favor PvP because they'd end up losing high of their gaming market and it would no longer be able to afford the 100K tournaments - PvPers think Guild Wars was made for them, may have started off as a notion of PvP competitive play but with most of its gaming budget spent on the PvE side, it always makes me laugh to hear the PvPers go nato at PvE'ers... but this won't change because Arenanet isn't actively moving in that kind of direction.  PvP builds don't necessarily work in PvE, and PvE builds don't necessarily work in PvP.  There is a lot of rivalry and childlike behaviour between the two sides of the game, something Arenanet has themselves let get out of hand.  I fail to see what your point with that sentence was.
 * As to your initial post, PvE or similar style games (with no randomness to the AI enemies) will always become easy, or non challenging ... after a while. Up until the point the player learns enough to counter anything that can be throw at them though, it is still challenging to a degree, just because a boss can be beaten quickly doesn't many knows how to do that.  If you're only resolving such things now, however... 23:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

This argument
Has been going on practically since Ursan came into existence, yet still no nerf. Thus I get the feeling that it will never be nerfed. Just my 2 cents -- Hawk Skeer  (Talk) 22:48, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The more and more times that passes and lesser attention Arenanet gives this one must question why this skill came about. GWEN has brought alot of unbalance to Guild Wars, was this Arenanet's intent? 203.173.242.13 23:07, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I believe that it will never be nerfed as well. It makes sense for them to keep Ursan around because almost every PuG requires Ursan. Where do they get Ursan? GW:EN.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 05:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with Teh Uber Pwnzer for exactly the same reasons --[[Image:User Wild rituals signature.png]]<font color="#4E8975">Wild  05:12, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Lets hope Anet gets its a-into-g, not a good omen for Guild Wars 2 if they leave GW in its state... 203.173.242.13 07:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Its pretty much too late anyway ~_~economy has ben fecked over badly,70% of the pepople i see has now slayer of all rank. ect. well whatever,gj failing anet and gl on gw283.249.119.162 09:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Its not to be unexpected, the last game in a series is generally bad anyway, just like sequels to movies. Utopia was supposed to follow Nightfall but it got scraped and just seems like Anet took most of the elements it had finished and made GWEN, half a game.  You go through main story arcs and see how some of the characters are starting to develop, like Livia (her ending for me made little sense because its only mentioned once, but leaves many unanswered questions)... GWEN screams of being unpolished and incomplete, Ursan is anything thing that screams something, but, as the final product for Arenanet for a while this is the standard I know expect from them. 203.173.242.13 04:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The economy has been screwed up from Day 1...Hyper Cutter 23:34, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Not by definition... -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 17:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah but even if the last of the series is bad,it doesnt mean that it has to feck upp all the other ones.83.249.119.162 10:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with Hawk, this discussion has been around since Ursan was discovered but ArenaNet doesn't seem very interested in it. This has been brought up here, on Gaile's pages and now Regina, and several other places so the general feeling that Ursan is hurting the game has been put out there for the developers to see.  Ursan has been around long enough for the developers to see that it is harmful in our opinion but as more and more time goes by I'm starting to get sick of the whole thing: Ursan, the developers, Guild Wars in general.  Guild Wars 2 is way off and GWEN hasn't left much of a positive impact for me, and its negative effects are hurting the game... but, the developers mustn't agree.  203.173.242.13 00:11, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Arenanet's answer to unbalanced Professions/Skills
Is Ursan Blessing Arenanet's answer to unbalanced professions or creating areas that only the more common professions can do freely? Instead of the labour it would take to go through some of these skills and professions and make them more balanced, or even just more understandable and appealing to players, they just use Ursan to achieve more of a commonality for players. In PvE I've seen EVERY profession at some point have it on their bar (outside of that ONE mission), I've even seen healing monks with it.

Ursan holds no bias to anything bar the title track, it is freely avaliable to all professions and is heavily functionable at the point in which you can get it.

The more I have played the game, and watched Wiki the more I question whether this was Arenanet's intent for Ursan (or the other blessings but honestly, I've only seen one person outside of the missions use those skills). Planning sometimes seems a little loose, from my point of view, when it comes to Arenanet doing stuff, thinking how it would be used or exploited, or impact the game seems a bit of a challenge for them at times. But with Ursan, and the increasing time between when it come into the player's hands and now, I have to question whether this is Arenanet's "one hit kill".

Ursan has been around for months now, and as I've said in prior posts is Ursan Arenanet's answer to the bias that existed before it. People on the 'for Ursan' side say they can not do the elite missions and other more challenging content (without it), and this is true, but it only comes down to Arenanet's poor man's answer. The only reason more and more people are doing the Elite Areas and missions etc is because of Ursan. Arenanet has successfully removed the possibilities of challenge from their game. What was the point of these elite missions and areas if not to be a challenge? When they can release one skill that now makes it possible for everyone to do it easily is this a challenge? Is this in the theme of these areas? People aren't completing DOA etc as a dervish, as a mesmer, as a ritualist etc, they are completing it as an Ursan user, not by who their character actually is. Skill is not rewarded, working through skills avaliable to your profession isn't been rewarded here.

People are complaining of the elitism in these areas, they are 'elite areas' mind you, and they provide a challenge for everyone, even more so of a challenge to those who find just the common game to be a challenge. We don't have elitism so much any more now that Ursan is the requirement, but now those without this one skill, or those who choose not to use it are being dumped. The same thing that the 'fors' are saying was a problem is now happening, but in reverse. Does this make it better? No. Its more social BS, just with a new mask.

Arenanet released elite areas and more challenging places to challenge people, for them to actually think before entering, thinking of their builds, thinking of their heroes builds, or their team mates build. Is there much thinking required now for an ursan group? Do they have to seriously think about their skill set? No. They have one skill that gives a complete set of skills that they don't have to change (even if Ursan was underpowered they have no reign over the skills).

I have drifted, but this is where my post ends, but in closing; Am I the only one who sees this as Arenanet's 'one hit kill' to not only challenge but to their responsibility for more active balance of PvE? 203.173.242.13 00:44, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Ursan gay! Ursan sucks! Ursan must DIE! *Neanderthalerish Rage*! <font color="Black">Dark <font color="Black">Morphon <font color="Black"> (contribs)  10:11, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. A few of us are arguing that if they nerf ursan, they do it AFTER they fix these areas so other professions can get in- prior to Ursan (and consumables, to a lesser extent), 3 professions were generally ignored (sins- shadow form tanks are rare, people preferred Obs tanks due to the fact that they didn't kill themselves if they made a single mistake, mesmers- took CoP AND consumables, rits- took specialized groups, people preferred eles).  Fix that issue while keeping these areas challenging and elite, then go ahead and nerf Ursan. --Kalas Silvern 22:18, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

woo ursan yay
when i bought gw i was under the impression that charachter builds would be the most important and individual part of the gameplay as opposed to the level for example, if had known i was buying a game in which everyone would be running around with the exact same level using the exact same build, a build developed FOR and not by the players, i wouldnt have bothered buying it. it seems that the ursan skill and its huge fanbase contradict every reason i had for buying gw and every impression i had of guild wars when i first bought the game. this isnt a case of ursan needing a nerf as much as its a case of guild wars being in dire need of a buff.guess theres no point in buying gw2 when it comes out if all i can expect are more great ideas like this from the a-net team.johnnysorrow 85.176.91.251 18:24, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * When I bought Guild Wars I was under the impression that all professions had roughly the same level of power and utility, that didn't work out either. -- Gordon Ecker 00:21, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * And its better that every profession is exactly the same instead of just a few being a bit worse? Right.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 00:46, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ursan also favours several professions, though being uber overpowered there is no specific favor of professions for ursan teams, so you have more or less the same premises. Yet that type of unity rather resembles an inscresing mass of zombies, considering that some players see this build as no fun to play, though not using it would actually be ignorant as the best build is simple and undemanding. Ursan ruins most PvE titles for that fact that. It saddens me that Anet seemingly favors getting more profit from EotN than preserving the demand (and indirectly the fun to play) by balancing PvE. I don't say that PvE ever had a high demand, as due to the fact that you can also beat everything by fooling the AI with tanks and according protection skills. But now you can do everything with Ursan PuGs that are prepared in two minutes, and that's wrong. &mdash;Zerpha[[Image:UserZerpha The Improver sig.png|talk]] The Improver 00:59, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * My point is that the introduction of Ursan Blessing is not the first huge disappointment in the history of Guild Wars. A lot of people think that Nightfall ruined PvP. I personally think that Factions ruined PvE. Gear tanking was frustrating and disappointing for people who played rangers and mesmers, the demise of gear tanking was frustrating and disappointing for people who played in Sorrow's Furnace farming groups and AoE scattering was frustrating and disappointing for people who played elementalists. -- Gordon Ecker 01:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd argue that people managed to work around that, and that Paragons and PvE skills made PvE worse than those did. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 00:28, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Teh Uber Pwnzer's Discussion (2)
While I do dislike turning all 10 professions into 1 profession, it is true that certain professions are slightly underpowered and have trouble finding groups. This, imo, is the only reason Ursan still exists. This change I propose helps those professions more than tho others.

A proposal I think that would be more appropriate would be to allow certain professions use certain blessings and those blessings having a unique skill for each profession. Each skill would give each profession a different advantage in battle.

However, doing this in a way that all professions are still equal in power would be incredibly challenging and it would likely take a long time to find the perfect solution. Therefore, I believe this current proposal would be more of a temporary solution until a more refined one like what I previously mentioned is made.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 04:20, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Btw, I'm really tired right now so I'm sorry if what I typed up didn't make much sense. I'll explain more if there are any questions tomorrow.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 04:22, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't consider under a day of Norn point farming to be "grinding an incredible amount". -- Gordon Ecker 05:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * For those who get rampage on the first kill bonus and rank ups for the rest, no. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 05:23, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The first suggestion that would allow Ursan to continue helping those profs that never get into elite areas, yet reduces it to manageable power. Sure, things insta die after 4 seconds with lots of ursans, but now it'll require more competent monks.  Would still prefer the "make all underused professions more viable" approach, followed by a nerf, but this would work without annihilating the skill.  Finally, someone who's reasonable. --Kalas Silvern 08:03, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * An interesting suggestion there, a combination of a lot that has been suggested from prior suggestions, good work. You take a previous suggestion of armor and tweak it, a nice touch, though I think the duration is still a little long, maybe 2 minutes tops since there's no degen to your energy and maybe a casting time so if it ends in battle the AI still have a chance of interrupting it. Like the Mimicry change.  Good work.  203.173.242.13 08:20, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, will the damage be armor ignoring or of a type to allow protection against it? 203.173.242.13 08:30, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think that using downtime or counterability as balancing factors is a good idea. Downtime would create significant power disparity between Ursans in areas with constant or extended fights and Ursans in areas without constant or extended fights, as well as favoring groups with no Ursans or a large number of Ursans over groups with only a few Ursans. Making Ursan Blessing interruptible would create significant power disparity between Ursans in areas where monsters have universal interrupts such as Cry of Frustration and areas where monsters don't have universal interrupts. IMO when they nerf Ursan Blessing, they should do it by toning down the offensive power. -- Gordon Ecker 09:01, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That's a nice suggestion, i like that you included the Ursan skills as well. Ursan Roar should really not have AoE, but I personally would also remove AoE from the KD, or add "No effect if ends early" as otherwise removing the hex would cause a faster KD. &mdash;Zerpha[[Image:UserZerpha The Improver sig.png|talk]] The Improver 09:48, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I would still like to see Ursan in itself have a counter, a casting time would be preferable similar to the Dervish Elite Forms, and a change of defination to a Elite Form instead of Elite Skill would solve the mimic issue. I would also like to see a form change, like the Avatars, just copy the appearance of  Norn Bear Form and give it the similar shading and transparent effect of the  Bear Spirit, could even do it with the other Blessings and give them an animal form... visually I've been so itching for a form change.
 * I don't think any of Ursans attacks should have any armor ignoring properties, even if Arenanet didn't take these suggested tone downs - I like these changes for the most part but they could easily make the Strike an attack skill so blind and stuff still counter it and change its damage type.
 * People will always argue that counters will have killed Ursan but in its current form its far too easy and too lazy of a skill(s), just giving it some counters will stop many thousands of lazy players from using it straight off the bat but will still make it viable for those who take the time to discuss builds and can modifiy them for the up coming area. Add some skill to these skills... lol :P 203.173.242.13 18:56, 2 May 2008 (UTC) Edited - too long.

Alright, To lazy to read but...
What if you just locked ursan blessing in High end dungeon areas, Like you lock PvE skills out of PvP arenas. I mean, for completing missions, no one is going to just go all ursan all the time, The issue here seems to be farming, via DoA and such, why not just lock it out of dungeons? Sorry if this has been suggested before, but it seems to me that the economy is everyones main issue. But lets also not forget that there are plenty of other farming builds/bots that break the economy.--Shadowsin 18:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

What economy ? 81.245.235.41 16:33, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

It was late, but that was my suggestion :)
Any view people? Would love to hear your thoughts on it. 118.92.111.241 01:02, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

118.92.111.241's Issue
Excuse me if this is the wrong place to critique your proposed changes, but here is my opinion: While I agree that your individual skill changes would work well, I dont really think that your proposed change to the overall function would be very good. Pretty much, all you do is make that character into a warrior, in addition to what they normally are. Thats all well and good, but what about those of us who are already warriors? At max norn rank, the skill above would reduce my health by over 100 HP, in return for an armor gain of only 10. Why would I ever want to use this skill? Maybe set it to +x% health and armor? That would confer a slightly better advantage to warriors, but then warriors do not have a primary attribute that lends itself to ursan do they? Thats just my 2 cents. Ashes Of Doom  19:07, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't this suggestion actually lower the armor rating of the warrior against physical damage? Also, Ursan Rage's knockdown is what separates it from Ursan Strike. Rather than remove it entirely, I would like it to only knockdown the targeted foe, but still do some damage(less than the primary target's damage) to adjacent foes. --Kite 21:00, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

wow....
this page (the real page, not the talk page) should be archived :P--<font color="Blue">Ra <font color="Orange">ph  <font color="Blue">Tal <font color="Orange">ky  23:05, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

12.191.136.2's discussion

 * You are apparently not good at the game so you would not understand. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:75.191.186.158 (talk).


 * You may find it fun but I personally find the skill an insult to the players. This skill lets people do stuff they wouldn't normally be able to do... why?  Because it ignores a lot of the mechanics of the game that make it challenging.  Its good Arenanet are addressing it, it was poor game design from the get go. 000.00.00.00 23:37, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

LEAVE URSAN ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Terminator (talk).


 * SRSLY URSANS IS not All that great, leave it as is and let those volfen players own em, kk thx! AlysWarder 00:24, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

nerf ursan = 7 hero slot
/agree --Ridz16 17:19, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

What it comes down to.
Anet, run focus groups detailed with statistical information. Are current Ursan players more likely to quit than non-Ursan players? Basically, there are Ursan players that will continue to play Ursan or something else after the upcomming nerf, and there are non-Ursan players who will continue to play directly unaffected. Now, what does the pool of "swing" players look like?---what does the pool of players that would quit if Ursan was nerf or will quit if Ursan isn't nerfed look like, and to which side does it lean? Either side may threaten quitting, but I have a suspicion that Ursan has forced more non-Ursan players to quit and to continue quitting and to be dissapointed with the all-Ursan end-game and quit when they get there, like me. I'd say that if my suspicions are correct, Ursan should undergo a nerf that, for example, prevents more than one or two Ursans in a team, to be effective. Such as, for each player using any Norn Blessing in a team, all players using a Norn Blessing in that team do -20 damage. This would make it viable to carry one or two Ursans in a group, but no more. (Narziss 19:56, 2 August 2008 (UTC))


 * It's too late. The oldfags are gone and won't come back just because Ursan is nerfed. There's way too many other problems, and for many of us, our faith in ANet has already been shattered (the final nail was the mAT, which was essentially ignored).
 * In order for PvE to be properly balanced, they'd have to completely redo the title systems - or strip the titles from every character in the game. Even if they wanted to do the latter, I seriously doubt they have the technical ability to do so (yet another failure of GW support; not only do you get robotic answers all the time, but they don't even have chat logs - or don't use them - or the ability to change characters).
 * In a sense, I can see why ANet's given up on GW1: They've realized that it's essentially unrecoverably bad. Introducing over a thousand skills makes PvP practically impossible to balance (though a lot more could be done now than has been done), and introducing consumables and PvE-only skills makes PvE far, far too easy to be acceptable. The latter could have been fixed very easily had ANet taken quick and decisive action, but as we know from Ritspike, IWAY, and original Sway, that's not ANet's cup of tea.
 * The problem is, while they get props for giving up on the unfixable stuff and focusing on what they can realistically do something about, the unfixable stuff has been so bad for so long that it's turning people off of what could potentially be a great game.
 * I would seriously reconsider my stance of "I'm not buying GW2, ever, unless some miracle occurs and it's a semi-decent ANet product, and I get a free trial of some sort, and I personally like it, and I can see no potential problems from said trial" if ANet would publicly announce that GW1 was a failed experiment and they're giving up on it in favor of trying to start again with GW2. I think a lot of people would, too.
 * -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 14:16, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Personally I think all this talk of nerfing Ursan is pathetic. One of the main arguments I keep hearing is people whining about not being able to get in a group because they are not Ursan. It is constantly said that nobody wants to be in an Ursan group but they cannot get in to a non Ursan group.

If that really is the case then why don't this massive group of people that do not want to be in an Ursan group get together and make non Ursan groups.

The answer I get given to this is that if you ask for a non Ursan group, everybody laughs and nobody joins with the requester. So surely this demonstrates the fact that there really are not that many people who want to join a non Ursan group, otherwise they would all join the requester.

To be perfectly honest, I am getting really bored of all this nerfing that Anet are doing. I'm starting to consider leaving GW and playing pacman until GW2 finally comes out. After they have nerfed Ursan what's next on the list?

Here's a prediction of the next things to get nerfed, in no particular order, when the whiners get their way with Ursan and want something else to complain about

600/55

con sets

ele skill bar

rit skill bar

SS

HB

add anything else to the list that lot's of people use most of the time.

Why don't Anet do something about the imbalance in the Kurzik HFFF. The whole point about the Factions chapter was supposed to be the Alliance battles, yet there is not such thing anymore because although the Luxon's turn up for AB, the Kurz's are too busy farming faction in HFF far too easily. It's about time Anet did something about that instead of killing PvE skills. Karnor 21:52, 7 August 2008 (UTC)