Feedback talk:User/Tashiro/Heroes with PvE Skills

This is wrong in so many ways. I saw the words "Heroes" and "PvE skills" in one sentance, without the words "should not use" between, so I started to panic. Titani  Ertan  21:45, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Any particular reason why? Giving them access to a single PvE skill you have earned, only usable in PvE areas, isn't a Bad Thing or the End Of The World. Tashiro 18:29, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. OP shit will be OP, especially on heroes. Titani [[image:User Titani Ertan chrome.png|Uth]] Ertan  18:51, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Someone had suggested instead, Hero-Specific PvE Skills. Something to reflect their growth and such.  I mean, it does make sense from an in-game perspective.  Gwen should have some sort of Vanguard Skill, since she's an actual member.  Jora should have some Norn related Skill.  Vekk should have Asura-related Skills.  It just makes sense that they have access to something to represent their alliances or race.
 * Your suggestion specifically says that heroes can use PvE skills. You didn't say anything about hero-specific PvE skills; and to be honest, they won't be PvE skills by determination. I do agree that it makes sense, but then it creates an enormous discrimination between heroes. Jora got Bear Form, but Koss only got Whirlwind Attack. lol why did you take Koss? or What does Zenmai have?. And if you give them any PvE skill, PvE will become so amazingly easy, that my invisible pink flying and amputee/limping cat can finish it all. Titani [[image:User Titani Ertan chrome.png|Uth]] Ertan  04:21, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * True, but this came up after I'd already made the suggestion. As for the other Heroes -- Koss could have access to one of the Sunspear Skills, Zenmai could have access to the Kurzick/Luxon Skills, for example.  And this reminds me of something mentioned recently -- 'easy' is relative.  For people who really dedicate themselves to the game, yes, it might be 'easy'.  For those people who are casual players (like myself, or my wife who has just started), no, the game won't be easy.  They still need to unlock the Heroes, they still need to hunt down the Skills for the Heroes to use, and they still have to work through the game.  For more serious or hardcore players -- the game's relatively easy anyway.  Really, the game should be more geared, PvE-wise, towards the more casual player, not the dedicated player.  The dedicated players are going to push through and get a lot of things, casual players usually get frustrated if something they like seems near impossible to get.
 * First, do your homework. Would you rather run something like Cry of Pain on your hero, or Club of a Thousand Bears? Then, my friend, you must run a specific hero. What would people without those heroes feel? They will be left discriminated, worse probably (in game views).
 * Second, the game is easy for everyone who decide they want to play the easy way. Casual players can get their Legendary titles without much of a hassle, but will only get it some time slower than the dedicated one. See the countless user posts on that subject if you want to continue from this point. Titani [[image:User Titani Ertan chrome.png|Uth]] Ertan  10:34, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Regarding heroes being able to use the existing PvE skills, I'm against that. Regarding each hero gaining a unique skill, I would enjoy that. I imagine a line of quests that deals with some back story of the hero, and ultimately ends in rewarding the hero skill. Now as far as people feeling discriminated against if they don't have a certain hero, well, it's obvious that anyone who doesn't own the Eye of the North expansion will not get any of the heroes or PvE skills you can unlock, so that point is a bit moot. In summary I would be for unique hero skills, but not the use of existing ones, as they are balanced to be used only by humans. Xiaquin 20:03, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Tashiro, do a little searching before you post a suggestion next time, this one has already been brought up. Regarding the suggestion, I am for it. Elite PvE is dieing and one can only find a party if they're a specific profession with a specific build. Allowing heroes to have PvE skills would allow me to run the builds I want to enjoy an area, instead of spamming that I'm running a CoP gimmick build in DoA until 7 other CoP-ers finally show up to form a party. ~  M  ervil     [[Image:User_Mervil_Sig.png]] 16:57, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree 100% that this should be done, Tashiro. I do NOT understand the argument against it.  Everybody against this says that it takes away from teaming up with real players, but since that is being destroyed by gimmick builds that everybody has a right to run, but NOT a right to demand from others, anyway, they have no ground to stand on.  I am simply sick of going to an elite area and waiting hours on end for either enough people to show up to team up with, or people to accept the build that I want to use.
 * PS. I have already posted this suggestion... :P Feedback:User/Musha/PvE_Skills_for_Heroes --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] Talk 04:16, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Let me explain this to you all. Imagine, that you can micro an Assassin hero to use Shadow Form. OMFG!!!. Imagine that you can bring Cry of Pain with 3 Necros. OMFG!!! Imagine 2 IMBAGONS THAT DON'T REQUIRE YOU TO BE A PARAGON OR HAVE ANOTHER TEAM MEMBER. Imagine Necrosis. Imagine "YMLaD!" spike. Imagine Seed of Life. Imagine Summon Spirits, Aura of Holy Might, Spear of Fury.... The thing you all say about byob dead, is another subject. And you counter yourself out when you say that you can't join an area because everybody is running another speed clear, and then you say that you want to run that speed clear with your heroes. I don't understand that logic, unless you're one of the people who say "WTF R U DOIN U ALL STPID" to party members when you die from overextending. I don't know you, so I can't know that. Now, tell me again. If PvE skills are imbalanced, how is being able to bring another 3 of them in a H&H is somewhere nearing balance? Titani  Ertan  07:09, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This isn't about whether or not PvE skills are over-powered. In regards to party/skill power, there is no difference between having a party of real people with PvE skills or having a party of heroes with PvE skills.  This is about having to wait an eternity for a party of real people or not being accepted into a party because they don't like our builds. --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] Talk  05:48, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * YES, IT IS!!! There is a limit of 3 PvE skills for a reason. And about the no-party-thing: You already got heroes and henchman, in a team game. You can solo almost every area with H&H, and you can do it so easily that it's not even funny. Add PvE only skills to AI, and they will be the most broken thing. When you think of something, think of the consequences, but don't be so narrow visioned about it. If you can't find people to group with, there is a guild and alliance. Don't destroy what's left of PvE for it. Titani [[image:User Titani Ertan chrome.png|Uth]] Ertan  05:53, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Speaking of narrow-mindedness...I think you're being so narrow minded that YOUR not understanding. Just because he doesn't agree with you makes him narrow-minded? Well, this isn't the forum for name-calling. I personally HAVE H&H'd the whole game. Yes, on HM too. You're right, it IS possible. But, as Musha said, thats not the point. Have you ever tried to H&H DoA on HM? Or heck, nm? Here's the situation: I want to do DoA or another elite area. I have a friend that wants to too. We go there, I'm a monk running a typical HB build, he's a necro cryer. Is it easy for us to find a party? 5 mins... 10 mins... 15 mins... oh screw this! The only people who are there are there to sell gemstones! Oh wait! Just in time, we get an invite to a party! So we go, but they, too, have been waiting forever to find a party. 30 mins into the run, somebody has to go, cause they've already waited for 2 hours to even find a party. So I say to my friend, well, why don't you and I do this with heroes. You run a non-gimmick build, something fun for you, and let's do this. Oh crap! Tahlkora can't use Seed of Life! Nuts! Olias can't use necrosis or CoP! Well, this ain't gonna work! Try, phail, wheres the fun? ~  M  ervil     [[Image:User_Mervil_Sig.png]] 02:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If you're talking about PuG problems, well, that's a problem because people have come to realize that in 99.99999999...% of the times, PuGs can't do shit. That's why there are GUILD and ALLIANCE runs. Also, DoA is the worst example, as compared to the rest of the game, it is such Power-Creeped and Overpowered that it got past any boundries.
 * I lol'd when you said "You run a non-gimmick build" followed by Seed of Life, Necrosis and CoP. Also, I don't give a damn about group finding, because as said, there are guilds and allies for that specific situation. I do give a damn about the rest of the game, as until PvE skills will be fixed (which they won't), this suggestion seems so amazingly game-breaking, that it will be Nightfall 2. Titani [[image:User Titani Ertan chrome.png|Uth]] Ertan  05:36, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You have yet to explain how it would be broken or how it is already broken. All you say is broken, broken, broken.  How is it broken?  In what way is it broken?  What's broken is how the PvE community demands certain builds just so they can speed clear an area instead of actually enjoying the game.
 * Now, let's take a look at your earlier words. "Imagine, that you can micro team up with an Assassin hero to player that uses Shadow Form. OMFG!!!. Imagine that you can bring team up with 3 Necros with Cry of Pain. OMFG!!! Imagine 2 IMBAGONS THAT DON'T REQUIRE YOU TO BE A PARAGON OR HAVE ANOTHER TEAM MEMBER. Imagine Necrosis. Imagine "YMLaD!" spike. Imagine Seed of Life. Imagine Summon Spirits, Aura of Holy Might, Spear of Fury...." All on other players!  You see?  Giving heroes PvE skills will NOT allow anything that can't already be done!  Instead, it will allow players who don't want to join a speed clear party or be forced to run the build they tell you to run to be able to play their own way.
 * And nobody said ANYTHING about running speed clears with heroes. The point here is that we DON'T want to run speed clears.  And since that is all anybody does these days, you can't join a party of real people without being forced into it.  The point of giving PvE skills to heroes is to allow the rest of us to form a real party with something other than speed clear builds but able to not FAIL.  --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] Talk  02:44, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm so sick of explaining over and over again why PvE skills and heroes are broken. Do your homework and then come back.
 * You know the big difference between Heroes and Players? If I can duo a HM area, something is not right; you can't really duo hard places in HM ("duality" intended), with only henchman. But you can with heroes.
 * Heroes got super insane reflexes, that can be exploited to be better than players. PvE skills, to work right, need at least some sort of timing. Now, halve that 1.5 seconds into a 1/16 of a second, and you got yourself a problem.
 * So, let me say this fucking again: Why would you want PvE skills if you don't speed clear? You can do things right without them; speed clears are big flashy builds that scream "PvE SKILL ABUSE!". Now, what would you prefer? A player who can get that wrong and screw up the whole thing, or a hero, that you can micro and flag?
 * So please, think thorough before you go out in statements. I don't have the patience to write more walls of text. Titani [[image:User Titani Ertan chrome.png|Uth]] Ertan  11:33, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You realize, of course, that posting your opinion here is strictly optional. But I understand why you wouldn't want to anymore, as your rants are getting rather tedious for all of us.  You have yet to explain a valid point OTHER than express your biased opinion.  The fact that you hate PvE, PvE skills, and heroes is abundantly clear.  You, somehow, seem to think that PvE skills and heroes have caused the game to become unfair to you, and that combining the 2 would only serve to further victimize you.  What is it that you think would be so broken?  You still haven't explained the very basis of your "arguments."  Heroes have great reflexes REGARDLESS of whether or not they can use PvE skills.  It's not like their reflexes will be improved.  Are you concerned about the ability of players to farm?  Players do that anyway!  You see, it's the PvE COMMUNITY, not the PvE play that's broken.  So what is it?  What are you so afraid of?!
 * These feedback pages were not made for you to shoot down every suggestion you disagree with (let's be honest, your mere opinions aren't going to change the course of the game) but for the community to reason out problems and generate ideas. The fact remains that the elite areas of the game are dominated by speed clears and runners.  But WHAT ABOUT THOSE THAT DON'T WANT TO SPEED CLEAR OR BUY A RUNNER!  How is this to be fixed?  You can't take away our skills, after all, players have a right to speed clear if they want.  Currently, if I want to go quest and complete the elite areas with a REAL party then I can only do so with heroes, and anybody who has ever tried this knows that the party is already destined to fail.  So, lets fix this!  Real people are not fulfilling their role in the game by partying up with people who want to quest through the elite areas legitimately, so they need to be replaced.  Heroes are already in a position to do this, so lets improve them to be the equal of real players; whether we give them access to 1, 2, or 3 PvE skills, or give them access to PvE skills only in HM, SOMETHING needs to be done.
 * If you would like to offer a reason or explain a point, WITHOUT ranting about how broken you think the game is and without cluttering up the post with your naughty words, by all means, do it. Simply telling us how much you hate the idea doesn't work.  And before you post anything, Titani, if you are going to assume that we are simply wanting our OWN way to speed clear, using heroes, then don't even bother, because you'd be missing the point entirely.  --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] Talk  04:35, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No, but they were made so that people can discuss suggestions and help weed out the stupid ones. PvE-only skills are overpowered (a.k.a. broken) by definition, that is why they are PvE-only. Anet didn't give heroes PvE skills for a reason, and it was well justified: they are far too powerful/overpowered/broken. Elite areas are supposed to be just that, elite. You can't just waltz in with your easy mode strategies that you've been using to finish the easier parts of the game (i.e. you and your good buddies A and I). Oh no, that might mean teaming up with people? In a team game?! Quit complaining about pugging, if you want to do an elite area, join a guild (the name of the game is Guild Wars, kthx), and ask in alliance/guild chat. Elite areas are meant to take some organising, not just another area you can map to and start straight away. That is, if you want to do it legitimately. King Neoterikos 05:35, 22 October 2009 (UTC)