Feedback talk:Skill update previews/20100243/archive1

Oh God, The mesmers just got even worse to deal with... -- Nei l2250  ,    Render Lord  18:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Learn to balance "Rofl, don't play this game", "Lalala disable ur RC without skillz", "Suiciding warrior rofl" and "Heal but get 133 7 damage lol" FIRST. wtf, STOP OVERBUFFING HEX GAYS. --114.137.137.169 15:44, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, the monsters are complaining about hexway. Wait wut? Unless someone's snapped altogether the majority of this update will apply to pvE, which you could have read. And lolPvE anyway. [[image:User_Yena_Newsig1.png‎|Talk‎]] ena. 16:36, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, because 'nobody' plays PvE -- just my entire Guild. Tashiro 15:45, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Wasted update, nerf necros, monks, illusion hexes, sins, dervs, paragons, smite monks, lr on rangers and fire eles, buff warriors (PvP), who cares about PvE. Then the game will be fun and hard to win again, kthnx. --71.55.40.10 23:56, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * lol@nerf everythingArcdash 01:18, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

MAJOR DERVISH UPDATE!!!

 * D DERVISH! WOOO.... a hem... i know you said not this update but ZOMG THEIRS ONE IN THE WORKING -SQUEALS- Plz let it be a good one >_< am liking

as far as the mesmer update goes aint got time to read it all but i like the 1 sec or less spells no longer being reduce in HM ^_^ Dinsy 18:50, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * We are gaurunteed to see a scythe nerf now. Don't get too excited about it.  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:23, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd like to see what a logistic nightmare any possible Scythe changes are. Looking back, we had some mod changes, but they where buffs. Only greens (since they are one item) got updated. Rest was left as is, and you had to find buffed mods yourself. A nerf would have to retro-fit every scythe in the game, and that's a gynormous database nightmare. &mdash; User_Poki_sig.png Poki#3  (talk ) 22:04, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What is the consensus? I swear I recall tons of people complaining about scythe damage.  Or do our pro-analysts consider scythes to be fine now or something?  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 22:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Dervishes are terrible now. Scythe skills aren't worth anything.  B menu agrees.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  22:13, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think the dervish problem is buff, though maybe a some is needed. From what I see they lack synergy with their own skills to have a well working build out side of little or no enchant based builds (like Zealous Vow attack spam). Cuilan 23:47, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Am thinking they will even out the dmg, higher lower with lower max dmg, so not as epic crits to stop the scythe sins but generally higher dmg as not hitting 9 80.5.78.169 00:11, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem is that dervishes (along with rits, paragons, and sins) need a proper role. Any changes before figuring out what their role is (blowing up bad teams isn't a role, nor is making the party invincible) will be bandaids instead of proper healing. Except it'll be more like applying bandaids while blindfolded with a number of people and only one of them actually needs the bandaid. The rest are just there to trick you into touching their asses so they can make gay jokes. 66.45.237.122 02:21, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No, the problem is that warriors overpower dervishes in terms of damage. Warriors have had a power creep parallel to antimelee hexes, which is why both are so out of control. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 02:33, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That's a separate problem, unless you can tell me what roles the new professions fill? "Assassins are the knockdown class" doesn't work when we're actually being serious. 66.45.237.122 02:59, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Trick you into touching their asses" ...well done Sir, well done. But the comment that a lot of Dervish skills don't synergize is the main reason they don't have that defined role.  Their one good Anti-Spell Elite is a freaking joke compared to Shadowform so why would you EVER bring a Dervish to "tank" instead of a SF'Sin or Terra?  And why would you bring one for spiking when Crit'Sins or Sundering Wars deal ~33% more damage?  They can't even heal right... I tried running a Arcane Party-heal D/Mo last night in Jennur's HM.  It freaking failed hard b/c the main skill's poor coding heals random targets instead of the ones that are actually injured the most.  Almost Everything in the Dervish's arsenal is exactly like that... a ton of work to build around with nearly jack shit for a pay-off. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 04:24, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Dude... still? stay away from my VoS seriously =P it's not the new SF and it's not gonna be Dinsy 10:43, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ummm... dervishes are amazing DPSers. AoG + Eternal Aura + Twin Moon + Asuran Scan.  Warriors are bad DPSers in pve until you find a bunched up mob of 10 or so enemies, at which point everything dies in one hit.  Anyway, AoG or AoL is the only thing I play because I haven't been able to find anything else that is worthwhile (besides Soldier's Stance but I'm not a fan of all the shout spamming).  Melandru is WORTHLESS in PvE.  If you find a scenario where it's viable at all, the only thing you're going to be doing is using Melandru because it destroyers your energy.  I just woke up so I have no idea what I'm talking about.  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 19:17, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Amused when a dervish collects enough DP to where they can't cast use Melandru. Cuilan 20:52, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * D'you take frequent, short naps?
 * Also, PvP Dervishes* [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  20:57, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Go away, This isn't about WS... A Mez can spread DW around in PvE better without even using an Elite. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 21:59, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I won't deny that AoG is totally underrated by most PvE'ers. ...but imagine for a second if you could run any Avatar you wanted without sacrificing an Elite slot... Now That would be a real example of synergy... -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 21:59, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Avatars have one thing in common, multiple effects, IE IMS + Holy Dmg + Armor they allow for impressive bar compression hence they are elite allowing that with another elite which it'self may have bar compression gives a highly buffed character for only 2 skills. To balance it out you would have to reduce the avatars buffs and possible the elites that synergise with it and then you just end up with 2 bad skills or simply an OP build.

Melandru could do with some kind of change, i'd not go as far to say it's worthless you can get around the energy issue if you really want to but it does deter its use. Dinsy 01:03, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I never nap but I sleep forever on weekends. And if there was a type of skill even lower than non-elite that's where Tree Momma should go.  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 01:00, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Imo, the problem with playing Dervishes in PvP is that the class forces one to take advantage of OP gimmicks - and why? Literally every counter - anti-melee, anti-caster, enchantment blighting, e-denial, etc. - will screw up a frontliner Dervish somehow; and healing Dervishes... just no, not ever. 141.165.170.184 21:05, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Wow...
""Psychic Instability – a successful interrupt now knocks down not only your target but all nearby foes. They are knocked down for 1…3…4 seconds." "  Altar matches say hi. o.0 --Strong Like Magikarp 19:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow... just, Wow... (Sure hope thats PVE Only D:) -- Nei l2250  ,    Render Lord User Neil2250 sig icon6.png 19:12, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * keep the 50% failure chance unless Fast Casting 5 or higher., lower KD duration to maybe 1..2..2, and have a reasonable energy/recharge cost for a skill like this and it will work in pvp without a spit...i think-- BobbyT [[Image:User_BobbyT BobbyT_Sig.jpg|19x19px|User Talk: BobbyT]] 19:41, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Aoe 4 second knockdown seems like too much for pve. Even if it takes 15 fast casting. The notes say nothing about the recharge either, imagine it with arcane echo. Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Jupiter.jpg|19px]] 19:54, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, awesome! --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] 00:03, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Psychic Distraction
"We are aware that Psychic Distraction currently sees play in some PvP formats. We’re moving its current functionality to Complicate."

This quote needs an explanation. Does this mean Complicate is becoming an elite skill? Psychic Distraction has always interrupted skills, so are they actually talking about Psychic Distraction at all? It sounds to me like they are just adding AoE to Psychic Distraction, a straight out buff, then making a clone of the original version. That would be insane and irrational, so I seriously hope that some miscommunication has occurred. My recommendation for what they want to do is just split the skill in PvE and PvP with the self skill disable removed and AoE foe disable (if that is the effect they want) while the PvP version remains unchanged. Misery  19:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I think what it means is that Complicate will get PD's current function while staying non-elite(possible nerf to balance it out)
 * The change to PD it-self sounds like a cross between Mirror of Disenchantment with the fact that it effects the same skills on all allies, and Diversion. doesn't look like a huge problem in pvp tbh, if the disable was minor, and skill cost and recharge was balanced-- BobbyT [[Image:User_BobbyT BobbyT_Sig.jpg|19x19px|User Talk: BobbyT]] 19:54, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That is already EXACTLY what the skill does, except they are adding AoE. Seeing as it is already used in tombs teams, adding AoE seems misguided. They have given no numbers so we have no idea if they intend to balance this effect with recharge or anything, hence the call for more information. Why are you bringing in Mirror of Disenchant at all? It's going to remain a hard interrupt according to this preview. I really hope Complicate isn't going to be a non-elite PD, because that would be power creep of the highest order. Misery  20:12, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

PvE/PvP split
The following skills should not be buffed for PvP and need to be split: Wastrel's Worry Frustration Cry of Frustration Psychic Distraction Empathy Shatter Delusions Accumulated Pain Phantom Pain Wandering Eye Ineptitude Migraine Stolen Speed

As a further comment, making Psychic Instability more powerful in PvP is fine, it needs it, but the AoE should be removed for reasons already stated in a section above.

I don't know how I feel about the buffs to casting time increase spells (Arcane Conundrum, Sum of All Fears, etc.), I haven't put them on the list as they do not so obviously need to be split as the skills above and I can only hope testing what path should be taken.

I felt this section was necessary due to a recent tendency towards power creep in PvP (the hammer buffs for example) and the fact that several mentioned skills are already very prevalent in this meta (e.g. Empathy) or were huge problems in previous metas (e.g. Wandering Eye/Ineptitude). Misery  19:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * mesmer skills are already some of the most frustrating things to combat in pvp (especially hexstacking), there is a fine line between good and "OHMYGODIMONFIRE" op.70.139.49.71 20:47, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * They're all PvE changes. I don't know how they could've made that more obvious. -Anorith [[Image:User Anorith Grenths Grasp.jpg|19px]] Talk 20:52, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "The focus of the changes will be to improve the role of the Mesmer in both normal and high-end PvE, but when appropriate, the changes will apply to PvP as well."

check that word up. --Anorith  Talk 21:00, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * L2read? [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 20:56, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Felix beat me to it. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 20:57, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "appropriate"
 * "They're all PvE changes."

One or two. That's about it. --Kyoshi (Talk) 22:08, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Nice attempted, but failed, save though. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 21:02, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * So you consider any of those changes appropriate for pvp. Ok. -Anorith [[Image:User Anorith Grenths Grasp.jpg|19px]] Talk
 * Anet considered Seeping Wound appropriate for PvP. Definitions of "appropriate" vary widely, don't they?  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  21:07, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "So you consider any of those changes appropriate for pvp."
 * Seeing as they did not consider it prudent or necessary to tell us exactly which changes are for PvE only I decided to tell them which changes should be PvE only with the information that I was given. I assumed several of the hammer changes would be PvE only and I was incorrect. Misery  22:17, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Very few of these will be carried into pvp. The ones that are will be fine. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 02:40, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That's lovely, but if they want us to seriously comment upon upcoming skill changes and give feedback they need to tell us what is actually going on. Of course, I suspect they don't actually want that, so I hope the internal talks with the test crew are going better. Misery  09:50, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's a skill PREVIEW. They did tell you: "Well change these skills for PvE". To tell more details, they would have to know them first. If things are still being tested, they can't tell more. I'm grateful enough for this much information. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 18:11, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Read the preview again and read what I said again. You've missed something. Misery  19:46, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Woot
Expect a nerf within a week or a super-serious re-thinking before the update goes live. It looks too good to be true. But I'm happy for now.

Also DO NOT NERF MY GOD DAMN SCYTHE UNLESS YOU'RE GOING TO BUFF STUPID SHIT LIKE TREE MOMMA Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә    ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:28, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree woot about this mesmer update, it means I might have to dust mine off and start playing with it again :D also, what you talking about, Avatar of Melandru is a great skill already, immunity to conditions, earth damage and a hefty HP boost? what's not to like? San Darkwood  22:44, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The energy cost. --Macros 23:45, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see -- San Darkwood  09:23, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It makes the skill far too unwieldy to efficiently use, in my opinion - and I'm one of the Dervish's biggest advocates you'll find. I'd love to see Melandru on my bar again, but She'd need to cost less. 141.165.171.4 05:30, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Dervish advocates are always welcome! Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:47, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

The Mesmer updates, April 23, 2010
Can we get a clarification that all of these Mesmer updates are for PvE only? Because the proposed updates sound completely destructive to the current PvP metagame. Just wondering :) --Malchior Devenholm 22:23, 23 April 2010 (UTC) So not all will be PvE only, but most will, judging by the way the skills look. --Kyoshi (Talk)  06:57, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "The focus of the changes will be to improve the role of the Mesmer in both normal and high-end PvE, but when appropriate, the changes will apply to PvP as well."

In the humble opinion of this mesmer-on-permanent-hiatus player, the intended way to improve interrupts appear to be poor and unviable. The correct way to solve hard mode casting interrupts and the need to wait for an opportunity at the same time is to introduce a short Interrupt-Over-Time to key skills, triggering an interrupt if the mob uses a skill within the time limit. This means you can fire off an interrupt preemptively and then go about to be useful in other ways. Re-apply as necessesary. In order to address the problem of a single mesmer totally shutting down a boss, you apply apropriate skill recharge time, meaning that an interrupt specialist will need to carry several interrupt skills to be effective still without acheiving 100% shutdown (rewarding apropriate IOT application). Naturally, the IOT should only trigger once. Finally, to make this more viable for primary mesmers, tag longer lasting IOT and recharge to Fast Casting. I don't PvP, but IOT may be viable there as well since it provides a short shutdown (the smart opponent can opt to wait out the IOT). 213.114.97.221 22:50, 18 May 2010 (UTC) mentioned above (although the Fast Casting reduction to recharge of mesmer skills is going to make it less of an issue). Erasculio 01:53, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "introduce a short Interrupt-Over-Time to key skills, triggering an interrupt if the mob uses a skill within the time limit"
 * Shame, Guilt, Mistrust, not to mention the other spells for attack skills. The main weakness of the first two is the recharge, which fits within the "you apply apropriate skill recharge time"
 * Failure is not the same as interruption. The closest things to interrupt-over-time are Web of Disruption and Exhausting Assault and Maelstrom. Though, "IOT" isn't a great idea imo, as it kinda removes the skill from interrupting. -~=Ϛρѧякγ  User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png  (τѧιк)  02:24, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Failure is not the same as interruption. The closest things to interrupt-over-time are Web of Disruption and Exhausting Assault and Maelstrom. Though, "IOT" isn't a great idea imo, as it kinda removes the skill from interrupting. -~=Ϛρѧякγ  User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png  (τѧιк)  02:24, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Not to mention that aside from Web of Disruption, none of those work on anything but spells (well okay EA half works but that's not even Mesmer). I don't really get what you mean with "kinda removes the skill from interrupting". You can still use it exactly like before. The bonus is that you can pre-empt the use of a skill, within a window of a few seconds. In other words, it still rewards skillful playing but allows a somewhat larger margin of error; lifting players, not smacking them down. If that's not elitist enough.... well, too bad. 213.114.97.221 21:54, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Yasmin QQ about Mesmers thread.
Warning...this is a tl'dr of biblical proportions. However, its Yassie bitching here, so it might be worth a read. With that being said, I’m glad I stopped playing GW…especially after reading this. I’m sorry Anet, but you do not understand the fundamentals of your own game, and as such you have completely lost touch with the ability to make it playable. I don’t think any of the live team plays mesmer, or at least plays it well, because if you did you’d see all this outlined is false. And though I know my words will fall on deaf ears, I’m going to rip into you anyway. First, mesmer isn’t easy, it shouldn’t be. You can’t just roll your face around on the keyboard as a mesmer, they don’t pew pew in one hit (though they can actually if you’re smart enough to know how), they do not utilize cookie cutter builds that you leave on your bar forever a mesmer’s bar will change often to cater to each area and the type of monsters that are there. My bars are NEVER identical; each is somewhat different to do what needs to be done. Cry of Pain is not their only skill, and stacking massive hex spam and VoR is not how you play a mesmer. I'm sorry to see that the mesmer class will potentially be dumbed down because the average GW player cannot use a skill bar that requires reading the spell descriptions and having in game awareness. The problem is NOT mesmer ability being too much or too little, the issue is the lower common denominator players GW now caters for. This whole change over just shows how out of touch you all at Anet are with the state of your game...its terrible and unplayable and the fact that you need to stupefy a class verifies to me how you let your game go like Kristy Alley at an all you can eat. Second, people like myself, Katina and Purge (just to name a few) have NEVER had issues doing anything pvp or pve related on our mesmers. My mesmer regularly participated in HM FoW runs, UW runs in which we actually ran dual mesmers and not with that Cry of Pain bull. Your ZoS buddies can tell you my mesmer made a huge difference in many successful HM Deep runs and a build was catered to her. Yasmin (my mes) has done it all...from soloing UW, 55'ing, 600'ing, HM, NM, top 100 GvG and HA. I've saved many an RA match, won many a GvG, Power Blocked Leeloof's monk to high heaven, my mesmer made it possible for my guildies to get certain titles because of the casting speed on HM monk bosses (even though you think mesmer interruption can't do that well, but don't worry I will tear into). But the reason I don't have issues with my mesmer performing well in game is because I can read my skill bar, I like a challenge, I like actually playing a game...and that is why I stopped playing yours as you all apperently feel this way "Just Raine says: It's just that PvE is allowed to be such a bullshit faceroll that mesmers' job doesn't mean anything..." "It’s very difficult to interrupt reliably in Hard Mode due to the casting speed increase on all Hard Mode creatures." Not true, reliable interruption is not as hard as you think…the issue is the player base has degraded to roll your face on the keyboard players…and mesmers don’t work like that. Mesmers require understanding of all skills in the game—including cast times, activate times and so on…but since GW is now reserved to one trick pony items like pve skills, and necro heroes using Discord to roll through everything no one knows how to adequately deal with skills outside the roll your face box being used. Most players don’t even realize mesmers have a strong arsenal of skills to deal with fast cast times...Conundrum, Migraine, Diversion...so on (Yeah I use Diversion in pve). Purge and I rolled through Frostmaws thanks to Diversion and Psychic Distraction...but again, Purge and I know how to play. "Successful interruption often means spending some time not casting and instead watching your target for an opportunity to interrupt. While you’re doing this, you’re not actually helping your team and they know it." I read this and laughed out loud in my office...my co-worker said "Are you watching 'Ghostbusters' scenes on youtube again?" Congratulations Anet, you make a joke Harold Ramis would be proud of. I can't even express how much bullshit (pardon my French) that statement is, how ignorant that statement is. No, my warrior isn't noticing my efforts when he isn't getting blinded, no my monk isn't noticing my efforts when I keep them from getting Shamed/Diversioned/Migrained. No, my bad teammates who don't have enough sense to walk out of AOE like Meteor Shower, Firestorm and the Heats don't realize they aren't dying because I'm interrupting the monsters casting those spells. Never got any notice when in FOW I Echo-Pblocked all the monks with Heal Area and the SS necros or in UW never got any notice when I Echo-Pblocked all the Dream Riders. No, my party in frostmaws didn't notice at all that we weren't dying because Purge and I interrupted all the degen hexes including and mainly Wurm Bile. No, our efforts make no difference and I never ever heard "Thank god for our mesmer." Nope. Never heard that Anet. As the trolls say..."Anet, stop being bad". "The payoff for interrupting a creature is often unimpressive. You stop a single action but don’t necessarily reduce damage more than you would have by simply killing the creature more quickly instead of waiting around, trying to interrupt it."

I can't believe this is a statement from a developer...that sounds like a bad player that Auron would rip to shreds if he weren't blocked. MESMERS AREN'T MEANT TO DO DIRECT DAMAGE THE STOP ACTIONS SO THE DAMAGE DEALERS CAN QUICKLY ELIMINATE ENEMIES WITHOUT PENALTY AND PUNISHMENT. Please Anet, learn to play your own game because, obviously you don't. I will say it again, you sound like scrub players. I should mention that I forgot something important about not crossing the streams...the conclusion about interrupts on your part is due to the fact that since the player base is so lol-keyboard-faceroll-lazy, players would rather stick 8 interrupts on Gwen/Norgu's bar or use a bot than actually play the game. Wow, I just had a moment of clarity as the alcoholics say, when this dawned on me while reading that...you're nothing but bad players catering to your own kind, it makes complete sense now why you degraded your own game so badly. I'm laughing to hard as I type to bother saying anymore, and as such you'll read this as well as you do your skill bar...which means not at all. But in any case, I made my peace with this issue, and I am glad Yassie retired before she had to see her class lowered to common street trash. You had a great game Anet...RIP. -- *Yasmin Parvaneh*  22:45, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If you want to blindly ignore how mesmer players have been trying to play PvE in the last five years, that's your choice. Nearly all of the skills you've mentioned are skills players won't touch because they have very little effect, especially in hard mode. Cuilan 23:07, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Blindly ignore...yes I know, its a tl'dr so I will sum it up for you. I pve and pvp on my mesmer, no problem. Never had issues getting groups, pug, alliance or guild, Its not that they have no effect, you just can't be lazy/bad/afk/watching porn/on youtube while you play. Players won't touch them because, again, you can't faceroll.-- *Yasmin Parvaneh* [[Image:User_yasmin_parvaneh_sig.png]] 23:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hard to take you seriously when you're so quick to brush people off. Players like knowing they have an impact with the group they're playing with, including with heroes. Most of the already well off professions have the ability of filling many roles, so one would expect other players who have a mesmer will want to fit the role of a mesmer in many ways. Wanding and a couple weak slow down skills or interrupts that have painfully little effect against fast casting short recharge high attribute spam isn't useful. Cuilan 23:20, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If you echo-pb (30 energy, 2 slots + elite) on riders you are doing it wrong. In PvP there's a reward for it, in PvE you're a huge burden. I'd prefer dealing some hardcore damage when I remove limbs with my psychic powers rather than 3 health degeneration, there's really no reason outside balance in PvP that a mesmer shouldn't do as much damage as others. I still trust anet not to apply the overpowered stuff into PvP. -Anorith [[Image:User Anorith Grenths Grasp.jpg|19px]]<font color="DarkKhaki"> Talk 23:28, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Firstly at Cuilan, what you said made little sense. Secondly, if I am reading it right, you might want to re-read what I wrote as my answer to your point is in that wall of text. But you are exactly that player I'm talking about...you expect mesmers to be an atom bomb, and that isn't the case for most players to be able to do and they shouldn't be. There's more to this game than splashy explosions, and I'm very sorry that all the mesmers you've played with aren't the same caliber as ones like me. Armond said to me a little while ago on MSN (and since he's banned I'll add this here for him): "Armond says: I like how they think killing something is a better idea than interrupting it k, you go do that, and I'll just hang out to the side while your warriors get hit by every mesmer hex in the game." Interrupts are crucial to allowing other party members to complete their tasks, and recharge times, I am sure by that reply you don't weapon swap to a 40/40 set or play with mesmers who are creative with echo based skills and larceny skills.
 * At the other person, Echo PB is solid when used well and I know how to manage my energy. And again...you all want mesmer pew pew...you want FC eles with x8 Savanah heat and necros to blow up the whole room before you walk in Diablo 2 style. And if you have fun with that, ok, but for me, I like thinking, and since GW requires what you do, which for me is boring as shit, I've wandered off to greener pastures.-- *Yasmin Parvaneh* [[Image:User_yasmin_parvaneh_sig.png]] 23:39, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Anet may also be taking a look at improving mesmer conditions builds, perhaps if you want to play a non-damage, you can take a look into those. Cuilan 23:40, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Where do you use Diversion that it's more useful than bringing something else? Most of the "big bosses" are immune to skill disable, and it's not useful against regular mobs. Sure, it could completely shut down a dungeon boss or The Darkness, etc. but bringing one skill along and using it just for what's probably a pretty easy boss fight seems counter-productive. <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Jupiter.jpg|19px]] 23:42, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Again, you're showcasing PvE's bad design. Why can't monster skill be disabled?  Why not reward thought?  Let's ask the guy who made HM casters uninterruptable; I'm sure he thought it was a good idea.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  23:52, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

.
 * tl;dr everything past Anorith's first post.
 * Hi; you both look really dumb. Stop, reread your posts, and think about why. Try to get it before I tell you.
 * Cuilan, you're the one who's blindly ignoring things here - like, the fact that Yasmin was quite possibly the best PvE mesmer in the playerbase until she quit. Trying to tell the best of the best "you're doing it wrong" is like trying to tell [rawr] they should have been running healing hands wammos. She knows what she's talking about; just because 80% of the playerbase plays mesmer one way doesn't mean they have a clue what they're doing. ANet's logic works fine if and only if you assume that you're going to wipe fifteen times in a single FoW run, or something similarly ridiculous. Your logic, on the other hand, simply doesn't work; you seem to be under the impression that mesmers can't do much of anything, or that "making an impact" requires a super obvious sign for the rest of your party to pat you on the back for, or that a game based on skill (at least, that's why my box says) should cater to the uneducated majority. Here's a hint: Mesmers excel at making the other guy not do something. When the other guy can't do anything, that makes the monks' jobs easier. I, personally, pat my team on the back when I don't see a dozen different AoEs chilling around me. I laugh when I'm about to do something dumb involving my monk and a large number of Oni but Yasmin has my back with Clumsiness, so everything just kind of sits there as I /dance.
 * Anorith, why on earth is echo-pb doing it wrong? If you can't manage your energy with echo, you shouldn't be using it; if you can't spread echo-pb around a bunch of wind riders, you shouldn't be using pb. How exactly is Yas a huge burden by shutting down an assload of riders more effectively than a paragon could ever hope to? Where is this three degen coming from, and more importantly why do we give a shit about it? Did you even think about what kind of godliness a mesmer with the damage of a hammer warrior would be before you wrote dumb stuff about it? (I'll give you a hint: Excessively high damage prevention + large amounts of damage = overpowered.) Lastly, trusting ANet to not put overpowered things in PvP is so 2005 - we've had two and a half expansions of overpowered crap in PvP.
 * 66.45.237.122 23:48, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't deny the persons play ability, but their stance against mesmers being useful... Players should be allowed to have good skills and good ability. Cuilan 23:58, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * 66.45.237.122 23:48, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "just because 80% of the playerbase plays mesmer one way doesn't mean they have a clue what they're doing"
 * Same thing could be said about you or Yasmin, just because you play mesmer one way doesn't mean you're the shit and everyone else is just a pile of noobs that don't know how to play unless /facerollkeyboard. Although some stuff she said makes sense, most of it is just nonsense and desperate QQ for attention. You can QQ more if you want but Anet'll probably just laugh from this and carry on.-- Johnny Rodrigues User_Johnnyrodrigues_Signature.jpg 00:00, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll also point out that this is the minority of planned Mesmer skill changes, it sounds like. For all you know, the rest of the changes are more the kinds of things that you want. <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Jupiter.jpg|19px]] 00:04, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yas has more than proved that she's better than the vast majority of players. I'm pretty sure that's the definition of "[she's] the shit and everyone else is just a pile of noobs".
 * If you think this is nonsense and a plea for attention, you should probably get your eyes checked. If you want to try to play a mesmer like a hero or like an ele, that's your prerogative, but when better players point out your failures, don't call them bad. 66.45.237.122 00:10, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi there my angry anonymous friend, I somewhat assume you are Armond, because you have no clue what you're bullshitting about. I solo UW with spirits (no cons), I don't waste 3+ slots on shutting down something with this skill bar. Because I'd be a huge burden.
 * I've played this game for soon 5 years, I main mesmer, I've been there, done that, I'm a pro. Btw we talk Dream riders, 3+ skills to shut down a wind rider is ever more pathetic. Also I'm talking phantom pain, a skill which cause 3 degeneration, cost 10e recharge in 15 sec and things dies before it cause the deep wound. You might claim it is useful and require "thinking" but I say lame. -<font color="DarkSlateGray">Anorith [[Image:User Anorith Grenths Grasp.jpg|19px]]<font color="DarkKhaki"> Talk
 * You've played the game for 5 years and you still don't get it. That's kind of sad, actually.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  00:16, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * We're all main mesmers here, we both don't want 1,2,3 cookie cutter AoE mesmer builds, but one thing is sure, in PvE there's not much incentive to bring a mesmer instead of an Ele or a Necro (unless you're using a gimmick FC abusing build with almost or no mesmer skills). There's no denying that, you can QQ all you want but at the end of the day you'll hardly get into any party. Now with some of these changes there's an oportunity to take some useful and situational skills and make it more productive or more usefull in a larger set of situations. -- Johnny Rodrigues User_Johnnyrodrigues_Signature.jpg 00:19, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Pros can pblock fast cast empathy, and then the guy can't interrupt ever spell your monks cast. I thought you might be referring to Migraine, actually, which was why I asked why we give a shit about the degen. I agree, P. Pain is pretty lame now that we have Dismember/Eviscerate (oh wait...). Lastly, I'm not Armond.
 * Cuilan, Yasmin isn't saying "qq they're making my build obsolete", she's saying "I want to play game that's challenging and requires me to engage my brain, and taking away the skills I use to do that makes the game significantly less fun". It's not about being a special snowflake or anything like that, it's about the game being enjoyable. There's a reason good games include variable difficulty levels, and it's not so you can show off to your friends (as you seem to think one's build is for). And I happen to agree with her - she has a right to want to play a complex, challenging class when that class was designed to be complex and challenging, completely regardless of her right to play a complex and challenging game when that game was designed to be complex and challenging.
 * Johnny, stop playing with pugs that don't understand the game and you'll find your mesmer gets into a lot more groups. You'll get into even more if you learn how to properly play your mesmer and find some good people who know how to take advantage of that.
 * 66.45.237.122 00:23, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I feel really sad for you. Arcane Echo, Energy management (I assume GoLE as you're bad) and PB just to hinder those really hard Dream Riders from using empathy and PS. It's really sad isn't it? I faceroll with spirits and you need a whole team and do shit with PvP skills? Sad? Yeah. -<font color="DarkSlateGray">Anorith [[Image:User Anorith Grenths Grasp.jpg|19px]]<font color="DarkKhaki"> Talk
 * I know i'm late, but WOW you're just stupid, you guys are totally ignoring the facts and pushing your pug bullshit. Learn how to play, seriously, and you would appreciate everything this pro is trying to make you realize. Do you work for ANET? 173.12.1.241 19:08, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You're so late that no one even remembers what this argument was about anymore and it doesn't matter either b/c every other class in the game is now capped at 25% FC'ing instead of the 66% or w/e they had previously. Mesmers aren't so much for the "Pros" as every other class is just moar retarded now by comparison. GG. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 21:39, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I want a challenging game and play mesmers in disruptive ways too, but other players and I also want to be useful. Play ability and skills you are able to choose from are two different things. Other professions are able to fit multiple roles, so let's not deny a profession that as well. One of those roles is damage. I haven't seen any skills taken away. Cuilan 00:33, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Again, you're showcasing PvE's terrible design.
 * Every core profession was relatively well designed with a purpose. Mesmers have their purpose - disruption and subversion - and are damn good at it.
 * The thing is, PvE doesn't care about that because it's so mind-numbingly easy. Most things aren't worth disrupting or subverting because PvE mobs have terrible compositions.  And, the icing on the crapcake, the few things that are worth shutting down either cast too fast to be interrupted (lolhardmode) or can't be disabled because they're monster skills.
 * Bu you know what? There's something that works!  Instead of applying skill to PvE, you can give mobs a brick wall to ram their faces into, a problem-absorbing tampon that sucks up mobs' hate, while everyone else does their job unhindered.  And, guess what?  Since everyone's allowed to do their job unhindered because mobs have nothing even resembling common sense, mesmers' purpose becomes a moot point.
 * But there's a problem! Anet can't improve the AI because most players are just bloody terrible and they complain (remember that thread about the guy who was complaining about how he'd never be able to hit mobs if they kited?  Yeah, that's your average player) when they can't win effortlessly.
 * So Anet dumbs it down, NM and HM alike, to cater to these results of the absence of natural selection.
 * tl;dr mesmers can't have a purpose in PvE because people are too stupid to recognize that they need it, let alone perform it. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  00:46, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * You know the thing about faceroll farming? At that point, Guild Wars stops being a game and becomes a job.
 * I'd like a fun and challenging game, thanks. I can pick up an app at Starbucks whenever I feel I need an easy, unfulfilling job; I definitely don't need Guild Wars reduced to that.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  00:37, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * 66.45.237.122 If you haven't understand yet what the game has come to then I'm not going to waste more time. I don't like faceroll builds but the fact is that they are more useful than pbing one or two foes in a mob of 6 to 8 (or more). At least i'd like the chance to do more damage or be more effective (team wise) when I interrupt or help control my opponents because just pb'ing or diverting something isn't so helpful nowadays. And unfortunately most people have to play with pugs so if Anet can make our lives playing with them a little easier, then me and 80% of the mesmer population will surely appreciate it.
 * @Raine we don't want faceroll farming builds, we don't want weak and very specific and situational skills. What we do want is useful, adaptative utility skills. That's what mesmers are lacking. -- Johnny Rodrigues User_Johnnyrodrigues_Signature.jpg 00:46, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * PD & Diversion: Useful, adaptive utility skills.
 * Oh, what's that? Shutdown doesn't mean anything in PvE because mob composition, stats, AI, and general design are terrible?  Oh, okay.  I guess there goes what you were saying, huh?  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  00:51, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's just a comparision of usefulness. Why don't you explain how useful it is to powerblock a dreamrider over just killing it in 5 seconds with spirits. Give me something to laugh at. I also want you to explain why a skill like phantom pain is useless in PvE after the PvP split. -<font color="DarkSlateGray">Anorith [[Image:User Anorith Grenths Grasp.jpg|19px]]<font color="DarkKhaki"> Talk 00:49, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "faceroll is more effective than skilled play"


 * And you don't see a problem? At all?  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  00:51, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And you still can't answer my questions because you'll look dumb. Sad? --<font color="DarkSlateGray">Anorith [[Image:User Anorith Grenths Grasp.jpg|19px]]<font color="DarkKhaki"> Talk 00:53, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Have you read a bloody word I've said?
 * Let me pull an anet and dumb it down for you:
 * Mesmers' job (disruption and subversion) doesn't mean shit because PvE is an unfunny joke.
 * Mobs generally have stupid amounts of the same few skills and they use them all on recharge.
 * Mobs are generally so weak that no kind of shutdown is necessary.
 * When shutdown WOULD be necessary, it doesn't work because lolhardmonde and lolmonsterskills.
 * Tanking works in PvE.
 * You don't need to shut down anything when AI pumps all of their effort into damaging something that they can't do shit against.
 * Because of the above, faceroll > skill.
 * Did you get it that time around? [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  00:59, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "I also want you to explain why a skill like phantom pain is useless in PvE after the PvP split."


 * What is this supposed to mean? You already explained above why phantom pain is useless, which had nothing to do with the PvP split.
 * As for killing dream riders in five seconds vs shutdown: Ok, great, except your team can't do that with every dream rider in the mob, can it? That'd be pretty awesome if you could, but until then, shutdown is useful. Next you'll tell me Price and Faint on the same bar is a terrible idea... 66.45.237.122 01:04, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You're making progress. Now I want you to tell me how ME using useful skills in PvE instead of shutdown (which you seem to have understood isn't useful) makes me "not getting the game" as you claimed. Just admit you're wrong and answer my second question.
 * As to you IP, is the question hard? I could make it simple: Why is phantom pain useless in PvE and why shouldn't they make it useful? --<font color="DarkSlateGray">Anorith [[Image:User Anorith Grenths Grasp.jpg|19px]]<font color="DarkKhaki"> Talk 01:08, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This is why I say you don't get it. There's a reason why Phantom Pain is weak: it should not be easy for mesmers to inflict deep wound.  Remember SB/RI spike?  Yeah, shit like that is why it shouldn't be easy for mesmers to inflict DW.
 * Giving mesmers non-bad skills is cool, but making them good at things that they're not supposed to be good at is not cool. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  01:19, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * tl;dr Anorith is an idiot. lrnplygam pl0x. 220.255.4.29 01:27, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Price because of and only 25%, compared to blind or AoE Blurred Vision at 50%.
 * Faint In PvE it's like putting it on a pet; a pet that's about to get killed. Your target doesn't have a strong bar and won't last long, your target isn't a threat. All it does in PvE is slightly reducing the amount of hits the moster can cause duting it's short lifespan.
 * And you use those skills right? And think you're really useful because they're strong in PvP?
 * How sad. --<font color="DarkSlateGray">Anorith [[Image:User Anorith Grenths Grasp.jpg|19px]]<font color="DarkKhaki"> Talk 01:43, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I wasn't suggesting using them in PvE; I was comparing your argument to the historical cry of bad players upon seeing the PvP curses bar they're supposed to run. :/ Am I really that subtle with my analogies? 66.45.237.122 02:17, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I wasn't suggesting using them in PvE; I was comparing your argument to the historical cry of bad players upon seeing the PvP curses bar they're supposed to run. :/ Am I really that subtle with my analogies? 66.45.237.122 02:17, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Guild Wars is just ruined, and it cannot be safed anymore. The end. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  01:16, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Look, guys. You're thinking through this too much. Let me put all this into perspective for you.
 * Most (by most I really mean all) mobs in PvE consist of 6 baddies with terrible AI and poor healing abilities, so the fastest way to beat pve is to bring as much pew pew as possible. Mesmers were designed as a heavily strategic 1:1 shutdown class. This makes them great in pvp, but you don't need shutdown in pve. Many people thus believe that mesmers are bad in pve. Well, they're right.
 * Yasmin wasn't completely right about the reasons she's never had a problem in pve. She doesn't do great on a pve mes because she's a good mesmer. She does great on a pve mes because she's not an idiot. She knows how to mitigate damage by herself, she knows how to stay out of enemy threat locations, and she knows how to maximize the payoff of her skills. In other words, she's the opposite of a typical assassin player. She can bring any character and do well for her team, because metagame talents are not character-specific, and they go a long way when you use them properly.
 * Anet's pve skill updates make skills wtfhaxx0r teh godliez to make up for how little combat skill the average pve player has. It's not because those people are dumb in real life - it's because the requirement to succeed in pve is atrociously low. The requirement to succeed in PvP is very high - that's why PvP players have better combat awareness than pve players. PvE to them is a joke. Me and Devine used to join random FoW groups, as monks, and we would rush every group we saw and pull the enemies to the other people. Normally, teams would get slaughtered by such actions, but since him and I don't suck, our teams would finish FoW an hour earlier than if they had done it their way.
 * I really don't care about what Anet does with pve, because, well, it's going to stay the same hack-n-slash it's been for a long time. A small selection of the quests/missions require more than facerolling, and I still enjoy doing those from time to time, but the "bring big damage, kill everything you see" isn't appealing after your kill count is in the millions. Maybe they will try to make GW2's pve less pungent and more interesting.
 * Back to the update. I think the phrase "lolpve" sums up the situation we're in. Anet is dumbing down everything for pve even more, because apparently, people find it difficult to defeat predictable AI when you only use the PvP versions of skills. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 03:26, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "We couldn't get to dhuum without a shadow tank" <--  You at christmas.   ...and I did DoA HM recently too.  Let's be honest with ourselves for a minute here:   Some encounters Anet designed, were clearly designed to Flannum's idea of a challenge.  IE: Impossible for balanced builds.  The game's cheating so bad by throwing so much horse shit at you so quickly that the average person has no other choice but to cheat back.  That's what makes these new encounters "challenging" b/c everyone doing them has already gotten every other response to this game's content down to a reflex at this point.  So they had to raise the bar by outnumbering us 10-1 (LoL, stygian vale) with crap that 2-shots a 60-AL caster and runs 100 miles per hour.  There's simply no room for skill when you apply the Flannum doctrine to PvE, there's only Spam or Be-Spammed.  -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 04:05, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That was completely different. The 8 best players in the game couldn't get to dhuum without invincibility, because anet had been balancing UW around shadow form for a long time. Also, yeah you're right about everything else. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 04:23, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well it was a great read either way, and Jas's rant here was pretty good too. Unfortunately it's a bit much like a Tom Waits song, most people will never appreciate it and even the people who do; secretly wish they could be normal again and un-learn life's lesson's that helped them understand it.   In Essence, I totally agree and feel more powerful playing my Mesmer than any other class.  Meanwhile my own Guildmates won't even let me play 'her' on any of their speed-runs b/c mesmers aren't part of the PvX build Meta.  *sigh* -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 04:49, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

I think by now everybody knows that PvE is all about extremes - damage, levels, armor, duplicate tactics being used at the same time, builds that are too damn good. So it's only natural that something like this would happen. Mesmers need to be elevated to that "That's ridiculous!" level (but not Cryway level) to compete with everything else (which is already at that level). Maybe they should record PvP battles for statistics then somehow engineer real player's use of skills, movement, and reactions to the AI. Previously Unsigned 05:03, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If anet made the AI smart, with the current skills/buffs monsters have, pve would be impossible. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 05:11, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * In my opinion what Anet needs to do is add more skill to hexes. They can do this by making them conditional. For example, Lingering curse only applies to targets who have been healed in the last 5 seconds, or Weaken knees only applies if the target is moving.  This way they can give these skill more damage output for good players, and no damage output for bad players.  Other conditions could be "only applies if target foe is in after cast"(last spell used can still be read, but if you cast while they are casting a spell it does not apply) or "only applies if target foe is not moving".  I could go on and on...(Timcago 06:17, 24 April 2010 (UTC)).
 * Although I'm glad to see some Mesmer love, I don't think I like the amount they're giving us. Sure, I've been in situations where I was kicked in favour of a nuker or where I was asked to use RoJ (yeah, that's right) instead of my standard build, but I never felt that my Mesmer was weak; perhaps not as efficient as other professions but the control over enemies makes up for it, imo. PvE has evolved from "use fun tactics" to "kill stuff faster" which is why people favour nukers and builds that don't require more than mashing a few buttons, thus even a chimp could play and still get his VS. I'm not really upset because of the buff, rather because of what PvE has become (god forbid you'd have to use your brain, who knows what would happen!). I didn't have the patience to read everything so I'm sorry if I've said something that's already been said. - <font color="#330033">Mei Fen 08:11, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Call me an idiot but i don't see the mesmer turning into a faceroll class with what the preview shows. Yes, the job of interrupting and dealing damage will get a bit easier, that i admit, but that doesn't mean the way this class works is getting easier. What makes the mesmer a challenging class is the fact that almost all your skills need to react to what your enemy does and they don't touch that, do they? I'm a big mesmer-fan myself and after seeing the preview i have to say: it looks promising, i'm not hoping that there will be more ppl learning to play the mesmer as it's intended but maybe existing players of this class will get a bit more appreciation. Lou Wolfskin 09:33, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * ...very well stated, Mei Fen -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 22:07, 24 April 2010 (UTC) (PS:  apologies ahead of time, but this section seriously needs to be broken up a little)

Part II
The OP just shouts "i'm the PRO here, i am UBER! and you all are idiots and you just roll the face on your keyboard instead of PLAYING PRO!". Sorry, Yasmine, but you sounds just like an attention whore, even though SOME of your notices are worthwhile. Most, on the other hand, are not. Maybe you've just played with other bad mesmers and Yasmine was the only good one back when played with you - sure, why not. I seriously doubt you have played with 100% of mesmer population in GW to be able to judge how people play their characters. Being the best out of ten mesmers from the guild doesn't mean you're pro and 'know shit', Yasmine. So, according to OP, a mesmer is pro when he plays as a mesmer and has good reflexes. That means throwing in Diversion when it's useful and so on. Sure - Diversion is a great skill, even in PvE, and would be used much more frequently if it had a better recharge time. The biggest problem of a mesmery-mesmer are the recharge times. If you're fine with waiting a minute before moving onwards because your skills recharges, i think that you're rather 'lame', not pro. I also don't think that remaking the whole PvE, which is the biggest problem, is even possible that late in GW. I praise the efforts of making HM mobs interruptable, but i doubt it'll change anything. I do agree that it would be much better to redesign the game so it doesn't favor ONLY the high DPS and mesmers can take their unique niche, but since it's NOT POSSIBLE, it's better to do SOMETHING than leave the unbalance problem be. As the main issue is that all other classes fulfill their team roles much better and are more important in a team. Why bring a mesmer if you can take an imbagon? At least it's harder to time things wrong and generally fail as an imbagon. If you don't think that the mesmer is inferior to other classes, PvE-wise, you clearly either haven't played mesmer too much or played ONLY mesmer and have no idea about other builds and possibilities, not only meta ones. Drk 12:09, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

"the fact that Yasmin was quite possibly the best PvE mesmer in the playerbase until she quit. Trying to tell the best of the best "you're doing it wrong" is like trying to tell [rawr] they should have been running healing hands wammos. She knows what she's talking about; just because 80% of the playerbase plays mesmer one way doesn't mean they have a clue what they're doing."
 * Playing mesmer has never been rocket science. I get jumped on for saying that she's doing it wrong when she's obviously doing it wrong. I'll let Raine explain just how useless Yasmine is in PvE:

Or Shard:
 * Mobs generally have stupid amounts of the same few skills and they use them all on recharge.
 * Mobs are generally so weak that no kind of shutdown is necessary.
 * When shutdown WOULD be necessary, it doesn't work because lolhardmonde and lolmonsterskills.
 * Many people thus believe that mesmers are bad in pve. Well, they're right.
 * So while she's obviously doing it wrong (Diversion and PB on monsters), you can't let me, a "nobody", tell her so. Because you assume everyone you don't know can't play mesmer, because they're really really hard to figure out?
 * @shard; I can promise that you can ask any 13 yo wammo in random arenas and they'll be just as worthless mesmers in PvE as you claim yasmine to be. --<font color="DarkSlateGray">Anorith [[Image:User Anorith Grenths Grasp.jpg|19px]]<font color="DarkKhaki"> Talk 12:34, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Enough said. Let the baddies be the best baddies that they can be. If they think they are the shit then who are we to ruin their little fantasy world... -- Johnny Rodrigues  User_Johnnyrodrigues_Signature.jpg 13:07, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm going to have to agree, I haven't found anything yet in guild wars that's as advanced as rocket science. :S Cuilan 14:18, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That didn't make any sense. Yasmin is probably 1000 times better than a RA W/Mo would be.
 * You aren't looking hard enough. Again, it's because pve has an extremely low learning curve. It's designed so that anybody who isn't severely mentally disabled can get through it without many problems. Try serious pvp someday (by serious, I mean go back in time and fight iQ or WM). You'll probably find it impossible. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 18:34, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You aren't looking hard enough. Again, it's because pve has an extremely low learning curve. It's designed so that anybody who isn't severely mentally disabled can get through it without many problems. Try serious pvp someday (by serious, I mean go back in time and fight iQ or WM). You'll probably find it impossible. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 18:34, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You aren't looking hard enough. Again, it's because pve has an extremely low learning curve. It's designed so that anybody who isn't severely mentally disabled can get through it without many problems. Try serious pvp someday (by serious, I mean go back in time and fight iQ or WM). You'll probably find it impossible. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 18:34, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

All that was said in the skill preview is true. Compared to PvP, its way more difficult to interrupt enemies, and most of the time, energy denial and interruptions you made just don't matter. Oh, you nullified a monk. They had 1...7 more. Oh, you interrupted one elementalist. All of them may be elementalists. Oh, you took 200 energy from an enemy, he has already recharged 50. PvP and PvE gameplay are very different. They'll recover faster than you and keep going as if you didn't do anything at all, specially if they can resurrect their party members. Take, for example The Troubled Keeper. You won't be fighting X+YNPCsvsX+YNPCs in there. You'll be fighting 8+NPCs vs a hell of a lot of hostile NPCs. In PvP, taking out a single enemy can be good enough. In PvE, you are not progressing unless you take out a lot of them as soon as possible. In PvP, depending on the mode, a single death doesn't matter much, and after a match is complete, everyone is 'refreshed' and ready to go. In PvE, after a fight comes another one, and another one, and another one, and weariness accumulates if you don't use DP removal items. Mesmers can take out the doppelganger in record time. No other profession can kill it so quickly and easily, but when as the enemy party increases in size, Mesmers shine decreases too. GW is not a game in which you can grind and try again if you can't do something, so they have to level difficulty to work with as most people as possible, so it is neither too frustrating nor too easy for as much people as possible. There will be always the one that boasts about seeing the game in slow motion and expects everyone to just look at him playing and having all the fun while the rest looks. Just don't mind them. You may have not noticed this, but I think the most important part of a 'PvE love update' is to advertise change in a profession, so people become willing to try it out more. Something like a 'featured profession'. MithTalk 18:14, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Basically, anyone who agreed with Yasmin is just being nice or stubborn. Mesmers are only good in pve when they abuse fastcasting, and that keeps getting nerfed. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 18:41, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

god damn so much crying and whining i don't play a mesmer very much but i do see where yasmin is coming from i felt the same way when assassins came out and everyone was complaining about how useless they were. here's the thing mesmers have their own way of being a powerhouse in pve each profession has it's own use ele's are the in the second line blowing stuff up warriors are on the frontline making sure nothing gets past um monks they stay in the back as support dealing a bit of dmg here and there but mostly healing or making sure ppl don't die, rangers well no real need to discribe them their name does it as it is. now the mesmers they are the hex users they have the fast casting to allow them use of their interupts they make it ezer for monks to get their healing in they allow it so that warriors don't feel the brunt of a nuking they can make it possible for me an assassin to jump behind a bugger and waste him without much trouble each profession has a balance i may be a somewhat of them keyboard facerollers as yasmin has bluntly put it but i understand the basic uses of each profession THE FACT THAT EVERYONE SEEMS TO THINK EACH PROFESSION SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO THIS OR THAT IS PURE BS hell i remember when factions first came out i was looking for grps and each grp i found i was looked as a tank. I would tell them i'm not a warrior i'm an assassin my armor is 70 my dmg is much lower and my job is to take out high threat targets as quickly as possible NOT JUMP AT THE FRONT LINE TAKING THE FULL BRUNT OF THE DMG. but it seems now a days assassins can do that like it was nothing and i find it stupid so i guess i'm in teh same boat as yasmin about mesmers as i am about assassins. sins not ment to tank we are ment to jump in a fight kill the threatline target and vanish out of the brawl making the fight that much ezer for the main dmg dealers. chances are ppl well tell me i have no clue what i'm talking about and yadda yadda blah blah blah here's the thing how many assassins in history do u know of that kills flashy-dastryin, main chracter of use Danelle Hallios (assassin)
 * I think my brain is bleeding. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 19:19, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "yadda yadda blah blah blah"
 * That's what it felt like reading through the whole post. -- Johnny Rodrigues User_Johnnyrodrigues_Signature.jpg 23:17, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

"omg i'm yasmineeee~ look at me and btw everyone sucks except me and my friends. I quit the game LOL just kidding let's go run UW!" Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә    ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 19:47, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

I like to see buffs in illusion for pve domination has enough skills to bitchslap pve illusion has  very little use imo  and I agree with yasmin  pve hm is easy in itself when you have  discord heroes i admit im not the best mesmer in gw but im decent in my pve/pvp ventures and doing this to pve  is just a slap to the face for ppl who know how to run mesmer properly i hardly play my mes in pve  now  its way to easy to let foes vor themselves to death and hit cry of pain to win  and as far as pvp goes anet  is stupid enough to put most of these broken skills in pvp also i direct you to Seeping Wound if you dont believe it Hitojin 05:26, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * When did punctuation drop out of the grammar meta? Anyway, this thread is turning into a lot of trolling and restating of the same points made before. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 05:30, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You play SW in PvE... ? Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:40, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * @ Shard . If you'd give me a way to timetravel and give me 7 guys with the same goal that can train as much as WM could its not that impossible.Still very hard though 91.178.95.148 10:51, 25 April 2010

(UTC)

-- *Yasmin Parvaneh*  18:25, 26 April 2010 (UTC) Sweet, sweet irony. While it's true that pvE has pretty much already gone to hell with the introduction of PvE skills and Heroes, that statement seems somewhat laughable from someone who thinks running an echo Pb mesmer is a valid skill choice for generic pvE in the current state of the game. I can safely say I have no clue whatsoever who Yasmin is, but if she can play a pb, she must be of considerable prowess. Granted, it's definitely a personal-skill dependant way to play. I mean that stuff's hard, right?.. However the choice to run sub-par skill selections is entirely your right, and I assume directly derives from your own preferences and competence, so GLHF with it, but don't use your own non-conformism (I'm hoping that's what it is, as opposed to simply not understanding how to run optimalized builds or grasp the reasoning behind why a dedicated shutdown class is sub-optimal) as a base for either criticism or misplaced (lolPvE) Elitism. You know how to mitigate damage through skillful interruption. I'm happy for you, and this probably puts you somewhere above the average PvE player, but it in no way justifies random nerdrage when Anet is simply catering to the gross of the PvE population. The bigger picture, y'know. ena. <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">13:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No alice my last comment was  towards anet allowing broken skills into pvp like seeping wound. Hitojin 22:29, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * BTW my name is "Yasmin" not "Yasmine". If you can't scroll up to the title of the thread and spell one word correctly...meh, this page is long enough, never mind. :) -- *Yasmin Parvaneh* [[Image:User_yasmin_parvaneh_sig.png]] 17:07, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yasmin, I don't know whether you're as good as you say or not, and I really don't care. Regardless, updates are not intended to be tailored to suit the best (or professed best) players. Especially not in PvE. The main player base of GW today now plays mostly PvE, thus the attention it receives in skill updates. If you deny the average user the ability to function properly in any play style they want (or rather, any play style short of giving them steamrollers, which ironically restricted and still restricts a player's ability to play their own style) you are catering to a minority of your market. It's not a good business practice, and whether you like it or not, things are going to be changing.
 * I know that mesmers are able to stand up to PvE enemies in hard mode with shutdown builds like Power Block. I've run things like that too, and in hard mode, and done well. That doesn't mean it's so easy for everyone.
 * Generally speaking, why bother whining about it if, as you say, you don't play anymore anyway? (I lol'd at Aliceandsven's pseudo-quote, by the way.) And why are you so concerned about your character's reputation? I think the suitable phrase is "QQ moar". --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 17:33, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Yasmin QQ about Mesmers thread."
 * Thanks, I saw that. I take it you're going to giggle at your keyboard about the commotion you caused and not discuss this, so I'm done bothering. gg --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 18:33, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't give a shit about your name especially since it has no relevance to the topic. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:37, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You need to go back to shard's userpage and stay there if all you have to contribute is pve elitism. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:39, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "I’m sorry Anet, but you do not understand the fundamentals of your own game, and as such you have completely lost touch..."
 * Agree =) -- Cyan [[Image:User Cyan Light sig.jpg|19px]] 13:40, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Yasmine, you're absolutely right (PvE, coz i don't like PvP). I play Mesmer for almost 5 years now and never did anyone complained about My mesmer. Even more if My alliance has problem getting somewhere they know they can call me and we get the job done. Not that i'm super or so. but playing Mesmer is difficult but can do so much and are so powerful if you know how and when to use your skills and combine them with your team's abilities. Mesmer is an addition to any team, yeah true some teams would not allow Mesmer coz they tried and failed and find it a stupid profession, well i don't. I normally do not post here, manly because they left Mesmer alone, now the gonna nerf if and I hate it.
 * Nerf means "make weaker", Mesmers are getting buffed or "made stronger". In response to "my Mesmer hasn't had any problems" I don't think many people really think Mesmers are bad, just that, like so many other things in the game, you could do the same thing (kill stuff and not die) more effectively with another class. That doesn't mean Mesmers aren't fun to play, or that the slight displeasure someone on your team might feel that you're bringing a Mesmer isn't outweighed by your pleasure of bringing one. A good player can benefit a team with any class more than a poor player can with any class and build. After all, unlike what some people's comments suggest, most groups don't use some special meta team build to do things.
 * Yeah, but mark my words, the nerf comes. why Mesmer are powerful enough atm. So by making them even more powerful, they become over powered and something overpowered will be nerfed. So this is a mesmer nerf in the making.

I personally haven't really seen much class discrimination in pugs. People generally want 2 monks or a monk and rit, a tank, and after that just about anyone is taken, with an imbagon, minion master, or spirit spammer especially welcome. From the changes so far it looks like Mesmers will still be able to shut things down and meddle with enemies, they'll just be doing more damage at the same time too.<font color="#008800">Manifold  14:59, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think my guildie has right, he thinks this whole setup is to make the mesmer profession more appealing, so there is a greater "Mesmer-fan-base" to justify the profession in GW2. I say: please don't, there are popular/easy professions enough, please let there be one worth the study. And yeah I got my PUG-discrimination enough, but then I would do it with hench and be waiting on the other group to finish. And yeah we had sometimes to educate other players by learning them that Mesmers are a good addition to a party. And the more we played the more people knew this. In the first 2 years we had PUG- discrimination enough, but later on that went away coz more player came to realize it's not because they can't play that profession with decent success, but some others can.

Lots of people made their excuses after a mission when they saw how well it went with my Mesmer. Sure ther are one or more things that can be fine tuned, but this is way over it. like the interruption of spells only. Well I will try to get the most out of it while it lasts. Hopefully until GW2.

"Hurr durr, I am the dandiest mesmer in all of Tyria, herpaderp." Aevar talk  contribs 18:44, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

erm...uh...yay for Mesmers? Jeez...Mesmers have been asking for this for YEARS, sure, they can be very useful in PvE, no doubt, but the way they shutdown enemies instead of simply slaughtering them wholesale is what has made them of questionable use in PvE. I know Mesmers can be run in PvE, its been done plenty of times before, they're just making it a bit easier for Mesmers to get into groups by giving other players more confidence in them. Mesmers probably won't overshadow any other class in PvE, and you can still do the same thing you've always done, this is more to get Mesmers in groups in PvE and less to make them pure damage dealers. Arcdash 23:10, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That is what this update is doing: turning mesmers into pure damage dealers. With bars consisting of both Cry skills, Arcane Conundrum, Wandering Eye, Ineptitude, and WW, mesmers get loads of damage together with AoE blind and interrupts. And it takes absolutely no skill at all. But hey, it had to be expected right?  Koda  [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_UT.jpeg‎|19px]]  Kumi  20:52, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Where are the Wiki admins, and why hasn't been taken to a forum? -Drakora 21:33, 29 April 2010 (UTC) As the IP mentioned, this is a feedback page, and the entire purpose of it is so that Anet can read the discussions of the community and incorporate it into their plans if they believe it is viable. This is not something they can do if this moves to a forum. The admins are not going to step in to stop it unless violations of policy occur. -- Wyn  talk  09:52, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Because it's a feedback page, and people are providing their feedback? 208.44.247.125 21:36, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Let's not pretend this section isn't a massive eyesore and an attempt to troll feedback. Aevar talk   contribs 08:34, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Where are the Wiki admins, and why hasn't been taken to a forum?"
 * Seems like the cause for concern is bad PvE? How about in the next game ANet puts enemies like peacekeepers, harbingers, The Great Destroyer, and Fendi Nin in between every 4 or so mobs of enemies that people usually faceroll their keyboard against. Ya know instead of facerolling for 99% of a quest/mission/dungeon then thinking for the remainder. Then we get closer to a 20% playing time thought percentage.  Also throw in situations like Grand Court of Sebelkeh, Gadd + Iron Mist (dmg type swapping), and Echoing Banishment.  Things like that happening more often than 1% of the time make people pay more attention and make things more interesting.  It also prevents gamer girls from going on what I call a "tirage" (TM) --j/k-- and ripping off ppl's faces so they don't have anything to roll across a keyboard =P <font color="#C71585" size="2px">~>Sins <font color="#CA1F7B" size="2px"> WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 10:33, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Anet removed Iron Mist from Gadd in an update :) People didn't like him using it. -- Arduin  [[Image:User_Arduin_Companionship.jpg|15px|talk]] 10:43, 5 May 2010 (UTC)


 * As a main mesmer and someone that plays almost exclusively PvE, I am somewhat with Yasmin on this, albeit not completely. I agree with people that Mesmer should NOT be a faceroll type class. We DO NOT need to become like your run of the mill searing flames ele who only ever saved that build and has no idea why are destroyers so hard to deal with. I do agree anet on a few stuff though. I've run large parts of Normal Mode with Shutdown, Psychic Distraction being my weapon of choice. I DO believe that shutdown is a good thing in PvE. It helps a LOT "Okay, you people can swarm the monk, I'ma keep this ele here from doing anything at all". But HM does make shutdown mesmers much harder to pull off, mainly because your bar becomes skill point hell. I think aNet has hit this one on the spot: "All the good interrupts are on Domination", "You need Fast Casting if you want any hope of doing anything right", "You need inspiration to keep your energy flowing", "You need illusion to slow down people so you actually can interrupt something with a casting time less than one second". Even when I'm at my best, when you take into account your reaction time, and then lag... it kinda doesn't fly without Migraine, at least for me. Still on things they have gotten right, E-denial simply doesn't work in PvE, at least it is one thing I sometimes try and so far have only succeeded in one very particular situation. Granted, that still leaves a lot to be explored, my favourite as of late being somewhat as the mandragor dreamroot's build, around Fevered Dreams and Fragility, where you have mass daze helping to take all sorts of casters down and lots of horrible spreading to everyone in the form of conditions triggering fragility. Mesmers can be ridiculously powerful when played properly and it is by far my favourite class in this game. I do SERIOUSLY doubt aNet in that they do not believe they'll introduce large amounts of power creep, for that is the feeling the skill preview brings to everyone. A buff for some stuff would be welcome, yes, but aNet should take care that this class still requires thinking and builds that are everything but straightforward to play, cause that's what makes Mesmers so fun - VileLasagna 17:38, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Migraine
I hope that the Mindblade_Spectre builds will be reworked with this change in Migraine, otherwise the Chaos Plains will be even more impossible. Thanks for showing us what's to come!! :D --Musha 00:02, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Firstly; it isn't impossible as it is.
 * Secondly, it's going to be a simple case of backline being more careful, kiting to use important skills, etc. Common sense, really.83.36.16.132 00:04, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, thanks for your insight. --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] 00:10, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Frogs cast Migraine too...  That said, thank god.  I was sick of Broadhead arrow being a better Single-target lockdown than all of the Mesmer's skills combined.  -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 03:52, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Interupt and Knockdown in pvp
I must vent my frustration at the multitude of interupts and knockdown in the game considering the extremely limited availability of counters, and the counters that do exist quickly deplete your energy at such a rate its you might just as well have been interupted/kd'ed. In gvg this issue isnt so bad as you have teammates to keep you alive or run interference.

In Random Arenas, interupts and KD are supremely powerful to such a degree, if you get knocked down once you will continue to be repeatedly knocked down until you are dead. Kd as a whole is vastly superior to any other offense hex/condition/or skill. Not only is the target unable to do anything, he is stuck in the same spot for a relatively long period of time(when you consider it only takes 7 seconds to kill someone with attack skills, 2,3,or 5 seconds of kd is akin to half your life gone while you have no possibilty of dealing any).

As for ranger interupts: not only do you lose the energy, skill availablity, and time when interupted, but also you take damage(and often poison or bleeding as well!). While the ranger loses 1/4th of a second, typically 2-3 energy, and is able to repeat that skill within seconds.

Above all the balance issues of the power of these techniques is the whole basis of the game, fun. It is absolutely no fun to have no control over your character when KD'ed and have very little chance to do anything while repeatedly interupted.

So i propose a 4 prong plan to reducing the powerlessness while the target of such techs.

1) Buff the counters. As it is now, simply bringing some form of blocking is more effective in every way.

2) Add punishment to several hexes, such as:

a) backfire like damage to the hex 'meekness' when a target interupts

b) backfire like damage to the hex 'shadow of fear' when a target kds

c) add mid length hex affect to 'Jaundiced Gaze' so that the opponent takes mid range damage when an his opponents within earshot are kd'ed

d) add mid length hex affect to 'Shadow Strike' so that the opponent takes mid range damage when an his opponents within earshot are interupted

3) Add a 50% chance to fail to kd/interupt while weak

4) The implementation of a new mechanic which protects a target from being repeatedly interupted/kd'ed. Such as a countdown which reduces the chance of of being kd'ed/interupted that is started every time that target is kd'ed/interupted. Or perhaps a cumunalative chance to avoid interupts/kds each time that person is interupted/kd'd.

Even with all the above in place, interupts/kd would still be effective and have their place within pvp. But could no longer totally rape(the complete loss of control here is a valid analogy) opponents.Judge Omega 01:49, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Counters to melee KD: block stance/skill and anti-melee hexes.

Counters to caster KD: interrupts and anti caster hexes, strafing(stoning misses)

Counter to both: Balanced stance, doylak signet etc

I kinda agree though that a skill that deals damage to people that perform KD's would be interesting, but I doubt it would have enough universality to find its way on any decent players bar.

As for interrupts... I completely disagree because it takes a lot of skill to interrupt good players and the opportunity cost of running a rupt build is tons of DPS you could get from running lets say a MB ele. What I think they should do is make it so that canceling a spell only costs half energy instead of full energy. That would make cancel casting more viable.

The builds that take the most skill should be the builds that own the most.(Timcago 06:04, 24 April 2010 (UTC)).
 * Observe the field. If there is any kind of interupts/diversion around watch those players and don't spam like a brainless person. For Knockdown there are lots of counters, go /W for example and you will find Balanced Stance, Shield Bash and more to easily counter Knocklocks. The issue is actually that like 90% of the players in RA doesn't know what he's doing. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  12:49, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Having a counter does not make something balanced tbh. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 03:44, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * any time hexes are upgraded in pvp the game begins to suck. Why should someone be rewarded for tab clicking a skill on recharge?  There are tons of anti melee hexes already and most of the time just having 1 on a warrior is enough to significantly decrease their pressure.  If you make it harder for a warrior to KD then it will be even harder to push kills vs hexways.  You can't balance the game using RA as your test bed, imo RA doesnt even belong in this game.Bullets Mcdeath 14:05, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Mesmers post-update
Am I the only one that can still see that mesmers still will be an under appreciated class? The way mesmers work just isn't viable in PvE, in PvP it is on the other hand. Just focus on something cooler anet, such as nerfing everything more to make the game fun again :) --220.235.235.89 09:16, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Could you explain? Because to me, unless these updates are changed, it looks like mesmers are going to be adding another gallon of "holy crap destroy everything!" to Guild Wars.  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 19:44, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree, this might make the mesmer's "role" a bit easier but it doesn't change the fact that the role itself is almost totally unwanted in the current PvE Meta. I hope to hell that the rest of the changes they're promising (to Denial & Inspiration) are a lot more utilitarian or useful to a team than what we've seen so far (with the exception of Stolen Speed & Empathy) ...These changes just don't offer any real Utility or Synergy Multipliers. -- While at the same time you could argue that lowered casting rates(<1 second spells) on HM mobs actually makes all Anti-Caster support roles that the mesmer fills (usually with SL/VoR/SS, Emp, Backfire, & Reckless haste) even less desirable. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 23:37, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Stolen Speed is probably going to break something. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 01:03, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You already have ways for groups to cast faster as a group or individually. Cuilan 03:45, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * So Stolen Speed will make things that much more broken Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 04:39, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Consumables are supposed to cap at 66%, atleast that's what I've been told. If Stolen goes beyond that, then teams will still run 3 Eles or Necs instead of adding any more mesmers. ...Again, for Utility reasons.  -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 08:44, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What I fear is what will NPC mesmers become after the update. Wind Riders are just annoying. Give them a hell of a lot of armor ignoring damage, and there will be wipes left and right. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 16:05, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * ...Not for everyone.... Infact the sooner the PvE crowd has to take a high hard one against Hexway, the sooner it might get enough attention to be fixed in PvP. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 21:12, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * There is a chasm the size of the universe between PvE and PvP so no one (especially anet) will ever make the connection. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:46, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have to disagree with these statements. I can see these updates providing much more utility to the mesmer class.  Imo, these updates are very well thought out and WILL provide significant synergy and utility.  However, I CAN see mesmers being required to bring certain builds from now on if they wish to join a group, just as assassins are required to bring SF tank builds. Also, in response to Mith's statement:  Don't forget about the Mindblade Spectres in the Underworld.  With the new Migraine functionality, the Chaos Plains are going to be that much harder.  --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] 22:19, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

The Active Interruption changes...
...Are nice and all, but Power Flux should be buffed to inflict Daze (of course, only on PvE). Rangers with Broad Head Arrow are often better shut down than mesmers since they allow the entire party to shut an enemy down, and conditions are more poweful in PvE than in PvP (since everyone brings condition removal in PvP, but it's not found that often in PvE). An elite skill giving a short daze to mesmers would create a skill slightly underpowered by itself, but which could be made extremely powerful when used with the mesmer skills which change how conditions work. Meanwhile, Power Flux is weaker than Power Leak, and both are far from being useful in PvE anyway. Erasculio 11:26, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * [pending] Migraine – makes spells easily interruptible
 * [old] Fevered Dreams - inflicts short (but aoe) daze whenever being inflicted a condition
 * Pick your choice. 86.73.181.46 15:47, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd use FD builds still if I had the energy. You also don't know the range that it'll effect. Cuilan 20:33, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That daze skill already exists, except it's not elite and anybody can use it. It's Technobabble. 71.161.205.137 21:13, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. A nice daze for Mesmers would be great.  --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] 23:27, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Please
Keep this shit out of PvP :/ Morphy 14:40, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * See above. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 18:27, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree for the majority of the changes. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 03:44, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

What about Eles?
Congratz to all mesmers, who will not only be good supporters but also nice damage dealers in PvE after the update. But I'm a bit sad that ANet seems to forget eles, which should according to their own description one of the most powerful damage dealers in the game. They are quite good in normal mode but really suck in HM, because ALL their dmg is reduced by armor. (Physicals don't have the problem because all their +XX dmg in their skills are armor-ignoring (which I haven't known for a long time))

Am I the only ele who feels forgotten by ANet? Am I the only who is fed up with ER-Infusing/Bonding/Ordering? Am I the only who thinks that the ele support spells are nothing compared to SY!?

The simpliest solution for the dmg problem in HM would be a change of a PvE skill (Intensity?) to grant armor penetration on elemental damage. The harder solution would be a great balancing update like that for mesmers. --178.114.65.199 22:28, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you using Fire Magic in HM? Try Air. 100+ damage to three targets. <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Jupiter.jpg|19px]] 23:09, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I know what air is capable of - that's the reason I suggested armor penetration ;) But I learned one lesson from air: NEVER cast on a called targed - it usually dies before the Lightning Orb is finished. With air I run easily OOM because I do not get energy back from the attunement... --178.114.65.199 23:24, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Terras/Obsids, Shitterflames, Lightsipke, and Snare/Ward Eles make up atleast 75% of the current meta when you subtract Shadowform from the equation. Ele's need more PowerCreep like JayZ needs moar bitches -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 23:40, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ebon Battle Standard of Honor works very well with eles too. <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Jupiter.jpg|19px]] 23:52, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * +Which is like +XX damage that is armor ignoring. DoT AoE Fire eles still work well in HM with EBSH + By Ural's Hammmer with a AoE snare. Still I'd have to say the ether/infuser is still my fav in HM, way overpowered healing when there isn't too much enchant stripping. -- Lania Elderfire [[Image:User Lania Elderfire pinkribbon.jpg]] 15:47, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

With Weaken Armor, you should almost never deal less than 50% of the stated amount (assuming the armor ratings on the monster pages are correct), except against Arms of Insanity in HM, Titans in HM (Warrior Titans in NM, too, though), and Destroyers. 1/2 damage after Cracked Armor translates into an armor rating of 120, which is fairly high, tbh. Generally, level 30 Rangers will reduce the damage further. ــѕт. мıкε  16:12, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's called HARD Mode for a reason. You trying to buff the classes more to make HARD mode EASIER?!  That's just silly.  --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] 23:52, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * It's more bullshit mode than it is hard mode. Everything designed to make it "harder" is pretty much completely uncounterable (or at least extremely unfun to play against). Hard mode should have been designed so that the hard mode monsters weren't higher level or with faster attack/cast/run speeds, but instead with well thought out builds and tactics.
 * That's a separate rant entirely, though.
 * 66.45.237.122 00:43, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Why do Mesmers need fixing now...
...when, by all accounts, paras have been broken much longer, and broken much more obviously, for that matter (since the preview references imbagons by name)?!? Is it really that difficult to show up at a z-mission site, count the mesmers, then count the paras, and draw your conclusions from that? ...or see how said paras advertise for parties on a HM z-mission ("imbagon lfg z-mish HM" should be macro'd)? ...or, better still, show up at ToA and count the paras that are in parties (that aren't there for a run to get obsidian armor) versus mesmers?

You have a limited number of skills to look over and tweak. It would have taken a week to figure out the problem (hint: MOTIVATION AND SPEAR MASTERY) and begin to fix it.Ash Dragonshadow 01:14, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's Leadership that gives them unlimited energy. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  02:32, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * They're really amazing with SY or daggers. Cuilan 03:41, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe both of you missed the point. Let's isolate it to make it more obvious:
 *  Why are mesmers getting fixed before paragons?  Mesmers aren't really that broken: each line is extremely useful. Paragons are: try to come up w/ a good Motivation build that a party will accept.
 * Heck, Cuilan points out part of the problem: "Save Yourselves!" is actually a warrior skill. (How did this unsign itself...?)Ash Dragonshadow 16:22, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * oh my head, your point is mostly right but if only you had a clue about paragons... 66.45.237.122 08:29, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hello, random troll... The charge that I "don't have a clue" about paras contrasts sharply w/ your concession that I'm "mostly right." Would you care to elaborate on how I "don't have a clue," or are you just going to vaguely insult someone just to score points off of them? Ash Dragonshadow 16:22, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I made this same point a year ago on Linsey's page back when it was still open. At this point I'm just going to remain grateful that they're still on the to-do list at all.  As for why mesmers go first... ....well... -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 08:31, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You are saying that Motivation and Spear Mastery are the problem, which isn't. Thanks to Leadership they gain unlimited amounts of energy in which they use it again for other skills, where they gain energy back from. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  16:26, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * SY may be a warrior skill but it fits paragons. Each mesmer attribute isn't fine unless you like wanding. If you want to pull the "it's a warrior skill" card, take a look at AP PvE spam. Should be glad paragons will be getting a huge update such as this. I know I am. Cuilan 17:38, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * AP is what Reaper's Mark should have been... that's the only reason so many necs run it. For everything else, /Mesmer & /Rit are FAR superior secondaries for serious Necs.  Its comparitive relationship to SY! is still apples to oranges if you separate the broken nature of certain energy management primary attributes like they've been attempting to do with Expertise (yet somehow totally missing the very first suggestion in the feedback area that woulda fixed it almost a year ago). -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 21:02, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * ilr seems to get what I'm getting at... as for the other 2...


 * "Thanks to Leadership they gain unlimited amounts of energy in which they use it again for other skills...


 * First, that energy is nowhere near Soul Reaping levels. Second, right now the only skills anyone is using all of that energy for are those which allow you to *GASP!!! spam SY! more.


 * "SY may be a warrior skill but it fits paragons..."


 * ...but, see, it fits paragons better than most paragon skills do. If SY! were changed into a para elite tomorrow, who would really be surprised?


 * Outside of Leadership and Command, how many truly useful skills and elites are there. Spear Mastery has 4 skills(maybe) but no elites I would ditch Focused Anger for. Motivation has maybe 3 skills I'd use... but, again, no elites worth building a bar around (and a ton of absolutely worthless skills like Lyric of Zeal... *shudder*. Rework both lines and give the para players some versatility and variety beyond imbagon and FA amber runner. That's what needs to be done.Ash Dragonshadow 08:07, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * No, what needs to be done is that you need lern play.
 * Soul Reaping provides you with, realistically, 30-33 energy every 15 seconds. Leadership provides, realistically, 6 energy every two (2.010) seconds (two hits to charge SY at 33% IAS, be it from cons or an actual IAS). That's pretty close.
 * Everyone would be surprised if a warrior skill were changed to a para elite. No skills have been changed like that since the original guild wars beta (when healing signet was changed to warrior-only and mesmers or rangers [can't remember which] lost an elite). Live servers have never seen a skill changed from elite to nonelite or vice versa or from one class to another. Given what the test krewe has said about how adding new skills to the game slows down the entire game and what izzy's said about why 20e skills don't exist, I really don't think either one is possible (short maybe deleting and recoding the skill, but that assumes they have the technology to delete skills at this point).
 * Leadership has Defensive Anthem, Focused Anger, and Soldier's Fury. All are excellent when used in the right teams and situations (just like any other "useful" skill in the game). Command has Incoming for huge damage reduction lol. Motivation has Song of Restoration and Song of Purification, both of which are rather potent. (The true strength of Command and Motivation, though, come from broken nonelite skills, like Ballad of Restoration and Make Haste/Fall Back.) Spear Mastery... I really don't know why you think Cruel Spear and Stunning Spear are weak. Stunning Spear is by far the best way to apply Daze (well, currently; next patch Migraine will do that better), and Cruel Spear is large amounts of damage and essentially unconditional deep wound.
 * I agree, though, that paragons could use some versatility. They have around half a dozen good builds for all areas of the game combined (3-5 for various PvE, one for FA, maybe one for HA and one for GvG...). Like pretty much every class introduced past Proph, they're one trick ponies.
 * 147.144.66.159 15:58, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry... I stopped reading after "learn2play." If you want to have a meaningful discussion about the issue at hand, then remove the insult and try again. Otherwise, my Elonian Protector/Guardian/Vanquisher, Canthan Protector/Guardian, max Lightbringer and Sunspear titles, and max Norn, all achieved without cons or d'way and within a 3-month timeframe, all while working on 4-5 other characters simultaneously, pretty much entitles me to cordially and respectfully invite you to "learn2gofuckyourself." Have a nice day.Ash Dragonshadow 16:54, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Your few easy titles entitle you to nothing, actually, and furthermore I never said "learn2play", but I'll humor you.
 * Soul Reaping provides you with, realistically, 30-33 energy every 15 seconds. Leadership provides, realistically, 6 energy every two (2.010) seconds (two hits to charge SY at 33% IAS, be it from cons or an actual IAS). That's pretty close.
 * Everyone would be surprised if a warrior skill were changed to a para elite. No skills have been changed like that since the original guild wars beta (when healing signet was changed to warrior-only and mesmers or rangers [can't remember which] lost an elite). Live servers have never seen a skill changed from elite to nonelite or vice versa or from one class to another. Given what the test krewe has said about how adding new skills to the game slows down the entire game and what izzy's said about why 20e skills don't exist, I really don't think either one is possible (short maybe deleting and recoding the skill, but that assumes they have the technology to delete skills at this point).
 * Leadership has Defensive Anthem, Focused Anger, and Soldier's Fury. All are excellent when used in the right teams and situations (just like any other "useful" skill in the game). Command has Incoming for huge damage reduction lol. Motivation has Song of Restoration and Song of Purification, both of which are rather potent. (The true strength of Command and Motivation, though, come from broken nonelite skills, like Ballad of Restoration and Make Haste/Fall Back.) Spear Mastery... I really don't know why you think Cruel Spear and Stunning Spear are weak. Stunning Spear is by far the best way to apply Daze (well, currently; next patch Migraine will do that better), and Cruel Spear is large amounts of damage and essentially unconditional deep wound.
 * I agree, though, that paragons could use some versatility. They have around half a dozen good builds for all areas of the game combined (3-5 for various PvE, one for FA, maybe one for HA and one for GvG...). Like pretty much every class introduced past Proph, they're one trick ponies.
 * Not sure why I'm humoring you, tbh - is your skin so thin that you can't just cover up the first line if words hurt you so much?
 * 66.45.237.122 22:47, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Actual on-topic points first:
 * You agree w/ me that paragons need a rework for versatility, so at least we have something in common.
 * I agree that Leadership and Command have some very good non-elite skills, and that the Leadership elites you listed are extremely good.
 * I don't agree that the Spear elites are very desirable, especially considering that I can do much better with other professions (why spec a para for Stunning Strike when I could just grab a ranger and spec for Broad Head Arrow, for example). I also disagree that Motivation has anything desirable that a monk couldn't do, without the condition triggers inherent in each skill.
 * Finally, Soul Reaping just needs something to die nearby, while Leadership requires that you have a party willing to stay in close proximity for the energy return (not the easiest thing in the world to do with either h/h or PUGs). It also requires a supply of adrenaline for the shouts: if something is blocking (Icy Stalagmite) or preventing you from building adrenaline through hexes (Wind Rider), those shouts don't happen (and "lol hex removal/stance removal" may work in a perfect world, but the player base can't always be perfect, can it).
 * Off-topic points: No, I'm not "thin skinned." I just refuse to take people seriously if they need to be insulting and/or patronizing to deliver a point. If simple politeness is too much of a stretch for someone, then I simply won't deal with them. I take too much shit in the real world, and I'll be damned if I'll take it in a game.
 * ...oh, and yes, you did play the "learn2play" card. Your exact words: No, what needs to be done is that you need lern play.  I'd say that developing enough skill to make HM easy qualifies as learning to play, regardless of what you think.Ash Dragonshadow 03:30, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * BHA misses a lot, and (short Technobabble, which you can't easily put on an imbagon) daze is hard to come by but near required for challenging PvE. Stunning Spear doesn't miss nearly as much, even from heroes, and it's extra damage to boot. The condition requirement isn't a problem if you bring Anthem of Weariness and a fair number of physical attackers (which you should anyway) or someone with Enfeebling BLood. Cruel Spear is ridiculous deep wound and +damage, not to mention the whole ranged turret thing. Paragon DPS (even just from autoattacks) is pretty damn high, and their spike capabilities (for taking out single dangerous targets, which is what a lot of HM PvE is about, I'm sure you'll agree) are simply amazing.
 * H/H groups tend to never move out of the area of the player. Pugs are terrible, yes, but if you're pugging you probably have bigger problems. I rarely get back less than five energy with 12 leadership, and that's just not a significant enough drop to be noticable when it does happen. Part of the job of a good paragon, really, is to make sure you get back enough energy from your shouts. If your team is all over the place to the point where you can't get five of them within earshot, they're probably going to die anyway from an acute lack of SY/TNTF/etc, which means you get to rage at them for being terrible!
 * Re: Hexes and blocking: Yeah, this is why you build for specific areas before you go to them. If you're going to run into Wind Riders, bring Divert Hexes. If you're going to run into block stances, bring Rigor Mortis. If people refuse to build for the area on some misguided assumption that their build is so awesome that it doesn't need to deal with the known dangers, or that it's a precious thing because they brought it, kick them.
 * Off topic: My point was that "learn2play" != "lern play", and if you don't have thin skin, why'd you bother responding to me telling you to? In short, don't be trollbait. (That means don't respond angrily to me calling you trollbait, or to any of this line for that matter.)
 * 66.45.237.122 04:04, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Actually Mesmers have pretty much been gimped in PvE since prophs. Their is just no need for degen and tactical shutdown in PvE normally. (only in very limited cases is it actually handy) With the power and utility of Mesmers in PvP far outweighing that of them in PvE, balancing has always reflected the need to keep them under control in PvP, thus resulting in Mesmers long being the lepers of the PvE world. In addition to this, power creep seen since prophs, in particular with eles, has effectively rendered Mesmers obsolete. (in most circumstances a nuker will have far more utility in a PvE group than any mes, just due to their ability to inflict a high degree of AoE DPS). Therefore by the simple fact that Mesmers have been in the game about 18 months longer than Paragons, then I would say your initial statement is incorrect, Mesmer's have been broken far far longer. Also Anet does not fix things by what has been broken longest, but rather by which is the most pressing. More people play Mesmers (just by sheer merit of them being a core class) and are unable to get into many groups in PvE due to their restricted and often pointless utility in an ongoing limitless mob type environment. Paragon's however still see limited success in entering parties in PvE. Hope this helps answer your questions Ash. EDIT: also @ the above IP, just a minor correction but their has been an elite changed to a none elite on the live servers, however it was a PvE only skill. Lightbringers signet. -- Salome    16:19, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * You're right, I missed LS. I also missed Technobabble, which is better than SS. I blame it on PvE skills being cheating.
 * Utility and Damage are complete opposites. Nukers bring zero utility; mesmers bring plenty. The rest of your argument can be summed up as "this is why Guild Wars is brainless and faceroll", though, so thanks for pointing that out (even though things really don't just explode the way you seem to think they do). On a related note, back in the old days before nightfall, you couldn't just blow everything up and call it a day - good teams used mesmers (or at least secondary mesmers) to deal with pesky casters.
 * Not seeing where the power creep is with eles. They're good at two things - ER bonding/skillspam and bad nuking (in that said nuking either causes scatter or does less single target damage than a scythe or warrior would do).
 * 66.45.237.122 22:47, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You're not seeing where the power creep is with eles? May i direct you to searing flames or well...errr half of the AoE damage added since nightfall. I have played GW since 2 months after release and I can pretty much say that even back then Mesmers struggled most at getting into a team out of the 6 classes. Their is very very little point in a basic shutdown utility class profession in a PvE environment. Also it is true that ele's do less damage to a single target than warriors or dervishes, but saying such is kinda stating the obvious, as that's not really their function in PvE. Their higher energy pool is either exploited or they are used to spread a decent amount of damage throughout a mob at the same time, thus mitigating any healing found within that mob and making it easier for the group to take out backline healer AI, while it's busy trying to spam heals on all its hurt compatriots. The general DPS to a mob as a whole will normally be far greater than that inflicted by any melle class profession. Also back in the gold old days in the start of guildwars, you pretty much could just blow shit up, as no scatter effect made nukers pretty effective. So I repeat that as a design Mesmers have always found more utility in PvP than PvE, not really sure why you are arguing that point, as its pretty much accepted by anyone who's ever played PvE to be the case. -- Salome   [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 01:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Salome pretty much has it. Sure, Paragons are pretty much restricted to imbagonning, but at least they DO have that one build that gives them a pretty effective ticket into any group who's leader has any real idea what they're dealing with (generally, imbagons tend to sit just behind the healers, spiritspammers and MMs in "we want one of these" priority, and the market isn't as saturated as with spiritspammers). It's even something that's vaguely Paragon-y, even if it has lost some of the fun factor I remember from throwing chants and the like around in the Nightfall preview. Mesmers, on the other hand, have largely had to rely on the AP-fuelled assassin summon build, which isn't really playing a Mesmer at all - the core of the build can be attached to pretty much any character with 4 energy regeneration (with Dervishes as a possible exception) and a +20 energy staff and work well. After you've got the assassin, AP, AE, AI, and the two PvE spiking skills of your choice, the two remaining slots for actual Mesmer skills don't really contribute much to your build.
 * With the above aside, though, I don't think ANet is actually choosing to make their updates according to some priority list. Consider the LAST update, which basically buffed weaker lines of professions that were already doing quite well with what they had thank you. Accordingly, I suspect the reason why we're looking at having Mesmers next is simply because the Mesmer update is close to being ready, while Paragons and Dervishes are still on the proverbial drawing board. No point holding one thing back because something else is not yet ready, even if that something else might be more in need. (Personally, I suspect getting Paragons to work would require killing imbagons and making sure there are at least a handful of viable replacements to fill the resulting vacuum.) Draxynnic 02:57, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Salome, I thought I already said scatter makes aoe damage from eles reasonably pointless? All the AoE in NF and EotN is basically nullified by the scatter code (unless we're suddenly talking PvP). That leaves them with bonding, as I mentioned, and... maybe bsurge? Still, a necro with Enfeebling Blood does a bsurge's job, give or take.
 * Assuming you can magically get everything to stay in the AoE (I guess literally in the case of things like deep freeze...), it's not really going to do as much as you say, since the AI has infinite energy and AoE heals for triple digits. All that "damage" you do is basically worthless, since it doesn't work towards getting a kill. It's far more effective to simply take out the healers quickly - and by the time you've dedicated enough of your team's build to doing that, you're halfway to a build like Discordway which is largely single target (though with its fair share of non-scattering AoE, to be sure).
 * I thought the point of an ele was to either kill things or prevent things from killing you. None of that necessarily involves AoE, and, since AoE in PvE is such a bad idea, I'd think single target damage would be a much smarter idea. That's just me and my friend Logic, though.
 * Furthermore, please read the Utility article. You're continuing to use the term incorrectly. The utility that a Mesmer "sees" (if you insist on calling it that) is determined purely by his skillset, not by the areas he visits.
 * I'd forgotten about the days before scatter (it was implemented shortly after I started playing, and I never thought there was a valid argument against it). Even so, wasn't everyone terrible back then? A number of my friends have told me about fire ele builds without Mind Burn simply because it was such a pain to cap, or curses necros without spiteful spirit because no one knew it existed, etc etc etc. I know back when my builds were that bad, I'd take Mesmers because they made enemy healers not heal and that was a significant advantage. (Still is, really.)
 * Speaking of forgetting things, has everyone forgotten already the days of cry Mesmers that did more aoe damage than fire eles without causing scatter? I seem to remember a certain build that abused said cry to do ridiculous amounts of damage. "Normal" Mesmer-y builds still work great, too, if you know what you're doing.
 * 66.45.237.122 03:31, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm curious... I've never had a problem getting into a PvE group with a mesmer. Ever. Furthermore, I've been able to ping any bar on her and have it accepted without comment, regardless of whether it's Illusion or Domination (I always have some Inspiration skills as well). No one comments when she shows up FA, because they can fit in quite nicely. I'm not the greatest mes player to walk the planet, but I can at least hold my own in PvE and PvP.
 * By contrast, I can't get into (and stay with) a PvE party on my paragon unless I bring "that one build." Unless you have SY! somewhere in there, you may as well add heroes/henchman and dive in yourself, which defeats the purpose of playing a multi-player game. Furthermore, I've been reported for leeching in JQ/FA on occasion while playing her, simply because I didn't bring "Fall Back!" or "Incoming!"
 * I've sat my para on the shelf for long periods of time simply because it gets boring after a while playing the same build over and over and over again. Only rarely do they get any attention, while mesmers have gotten quite a bit more *cough*VoR*cough*. So, no... paras should have been on that drawing board long before mesmers got there.Ash Dragonshadow 17:06, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * FA (Fort Aspenwood?) is PvP. This who's first debate is silly if you know both are getting fixed/buffed/adjusted. Mesmers were from the first game and have had group/role/usefulness problems quite longer. This is more of a PvE update. Cuilan 19:27, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Different people have different experiences. Some people (including myself) take the attitude that somebody who's still playing an underpowered profession is someone who knows what they're doing with it, and thus a better gamble than a cookie-cutter who may prove to be more of a hindrance then a help. Still, I have had plenty of times where I've been in a group with people openly proposing kicking "the mesmer" ("useless" adjective optional) and times when I've been kicked without any such visible discussion - in one case before I could even say a line in greeting. Paragons, however, will usually get groups as long as they're willing to imba. However, the more important point is that ANet may not have a set "this is our order" policy, but has instead been working on the problem areas in parallel, and the Mesmer is just the next to be ready. Draxynnic 10:33, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I've experienced and witnessed a load of past and modern kicking/bad-mouthing/drama/rejecting. Even today. Cuilan 23:08, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * @Cuilan: If you're not going to keep up with the conversation (which has included the lack of usefulness of paragons in PvP) then just stay out of it. You're not contributing anything.


 * Aside from that... if you continue to propose that the problem (imbagon) is a solution, and that mesmers working as designed is a priority problem to a profession that isn't working as designed (hell, barely works at all), then I have no more time to waste here. I'll also remind you of all the griping and whining when another profession leaned on |just one build, and point out the blatant hypocrisy. Good day. Ash Dragonshadow 16:20, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * For crying out loud. Did none of you read Salome's post?  He gave you all the answer to end this pointless discussion.  It has nothing to do with peoples' experiences or which profession needs fixing more than another.  They did not prioritize mesmer fix over paragon fix.  They're working on them all at the same time.  Mesmer was finished before paragon, so they released it first.  When paragon is finished they will release it, too.  It's not like they have a vendetta against you, intentionally making you wait for paragon fixes, and mocking you by releasing other prof fixes before paragon.  They will release those fixes when they are finished fixing it.  --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] 22:55, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * First: This is a feedback page. My feedback is that mesmers did not need the update as badly as paragons did. It's not "pointless."
 * Second: I did read Salome's post (for future reference, "Salome" is a female name), gave it due consideration... and dismissed it based on...
 * Also Anet does not fix things by what has been broken longest, but rather by which is the most pressing.
 * ...which is not supported by the evidence. Hammer warriors... blood necros... earth dervs... non-perma assassins... spirit-spammers... etc., etc., were all tweaked before mesmers and paras. That makes the whole "we're working on these fixes in parallel" argument about as valid as "Read my lips... no new taxes" and "I did not have sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky." Ash Dragonshadow 20:51, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Salome is male... 68.93.98.218 20:59, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Question, Ash... Would you prefer it if ANet had decided that the Paragon was the most pressing, concentrated all their efforts on it to the exclusion of everything else, and the Paragon buff came two weeks earlier...in June, with no other buffs to other areas that do need them until after that? If you said yes to that, what if, following that policy, ANet decided the Dervish was more pressing, and dropped the Paragon and the Mesmer both in favour of getting the Dervish update out in late July instead of August? Draxynnic 22:25, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

"Salome is male...""...and I'm supposed to know that from the name alone, right?

As to the other... you missed the point, like so many other people, so I'll restate it. Do not read between the lines, or try to parse some hidden meaning from it... read what is written:

Mesmers are working as designed; paras aren't. Mesmers have a better chance of getting into a party with any build; paras get kicked if they don't run imbagon. I don't hear people call for mesmers to be left out of GW2; however, I hear people claim that the best fix to paras is to simply delete the entire profession from GW1.

Unfortunately, mesmers got an update before paras did. Instead of running something other than imbagon on my para now, or even play w/ her in PvP, I must wait longer until ANet fixes what they screwed up to begin with.

Am I supposed to sit back and say, "Oh, well, at least mesmers are happy?" Am I not allowed to say, "ANet, you made a mistake... prioritize better?" (And, from the perspective of many other para players I've spoken to in-game, I'm totally right in thinking that updating mesmers before paras is "omgwtfSTUPID!!!" on several levels).

Maybe now, someone will finally get it. At this point, though, I'm doubtful.Ash Dragonshadow 23:52, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No, Ash, you're the one not getting it. Putting aside the question of whether the Paragon, Dervish, or Mesmer is worse off (my gut feeling says Dervish, to be honest), there is no guarantee that ANet having chosen to concentrate only on Paragons would have got a Paragon update through even one little bit faster. Speaking from experience, dropping everything else to concentrate only on one problem, however important that problem my be compared to others, is a good way to get the equivalent of writer's block and ending up getting nothing done. The order that updates have been coming through are clearly not in order of need, otherwise Paragon, Dervish and Mesmer would have come through well before Warrior, Necromancer and Ritualist. Instead, they're coming in order of "we're happy that this idea seems to be working as desired". As I've said before: Do you really think ANet should have held back all other updates until yours was ready, even if this does not accelerate the time yours is ready by a single day? Believe me, if it was the Paragon who was getting the update instead, I'd be happy that ANet was at least working their way through it and looking forward to trying new things on the updated profession. Draxynnic 07:00, 2 May 2010 (UTC)


 * ...okay... now that I have stopped laughing...
 * First of all, I get that you still do not understand the point. I said "paras need fixing more than mesmers did." I did not say (not have I ever said) "DROP EVERYTHING!!! FIX PARAGONS NOW!!!11!1!" Your comment that dervishes need fixing came closer to the argument/discussion/mass wall'o'text than anything else you've said in the past couple of days.
 * Second... "writer's block?!?" Are you suggesting that a software company is waiting for an intuitive leap, instead of sitting down with a piece of paper and a pencil and working things out logically? Are they sitting in a darkened room, burning incense and meditating on a Gwen doll, waiting for divine inspiration for changes to each profession as well? Really?!?
 * The fact that you would even suggest that these updates are done, not from some logical need, but at random as the ideas come to them... oh hell, I'm going to start laughing again...Ash Dragonshadow 06:58, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You are so focused on your own rage about Paragon updates that you can't see the big picture. You're not the only player in the game; nor is Paragon the only class. But neither is Mesmer.  Why in the world, in a game with 10 classes, MANY of which need fixing, would they single one out and devote all their resources to just the one?  They are reworking SEVERAL classes, that INCLUDES your Paragon!  But when you're grilling burgers, you remove any burgers that are done from the grill and serve them, leaving the remaining burgers on the grill to finish grilling.  So, you're pissed because somebody got their burger before you?  Come on.  Yeah, they will release the Mesmer update before the Paragon update, but that DOES NOT mean they are not working on Paragon.  What that means is that the Paragon update is not finished yet.  Hey, maybe it means they are reworking it a TON and when the update comes out its going to be HUGE.  It doesn't matter which is released first.  The fact is, the Mesmer one is ready.  They are not going to keep that on the burner just so your Paragon update will beat the Mesmer one to the table.  --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] 23:22, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The only "rage" I'm feeling is at people who (like you) are attempting to twist my position into something it isn't. As to the other 9 classes... I don't see any of them required to run one build, and one build only, to get into groups, unlike paragons (who are required to run as imbagons for anything outside of h/h'ing, whch pretty much defeats the purpose of buying a multi-player game)... I don't see them reported for leeching in FA/JQ... I certainly don't see people asking for them to be removed from the game entirely. This says to me (as I have said what feels like 1.50 * (10^11) times now)...

Paragons needed to be fixed before mesmers did.


 * ...not "throw everything else out and fix paragons now." Not "I am so angry that ANet has not fixed paragons." Certainly not "Throw out all of the updates for every other class, and finish the para fixes!!!"


 * The fact that so many people have tried to ascribe any of those arguments to me makes me weep for the reading comprehension of the average person. If I wrote "My house is blue," would you look for a white house with a black roof, brown shutters, and a blue-painted back door?Ash Dragonshadow 07:40, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Paragons get to use paragon skills and have energy management. On a side note, I stood for over an hour trying to get a group for a zaishen bounty dungeon a few days ago. Closely watching the party search, other mesmer players either logged off or switched to other characters. Cuilan 15:02, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Why in hell does it matter which one happened first? --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] 16:58, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * He's trying to say it doesn't, but he's pissed off that mesmers got buffs first. Or maybe he's not pissed off that mesmers got buffs first, but still thinks paragons should have gotten it first. He's not making a whole lot of sense, actually. 147.144.13.113 20:17, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Why is this so long? Mesmers have been busted for PvE since the game release, literally can not find parties and get literally any build they run criticized to a point of you leave or someone else does. Your build ping often equals the party's death before even going out. Paragons have a free no complaints ticket into any party. Paragons have useful builds for all their attributes on the PvX wiki, Motivation builds included. Paragons biggest issue is nerfing for PvP that rendered skills useless in PvE. But you can still play the class without complaints from party members. No. They're not perfect. Your update is coming, just as Musha said. Be patient. Also, asshat with the big font; That only makes you look like an idiot. Tone it down, use a different color or italics when you need to make a point. That's what they're there for. 75.248.46.214 07:54, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, if you had bothered reading, you'd see that: a.) All of the points you have brought up has been addressed, by several people (and I'm not the only one here who says you're dead wrong on the "kick-the-mesmer" bit); b.) I promised (not threatened... I never threaten) to put that up in mega-sized font if people kept misinterpreting me (intentional or not), so don't lecture me on how I make my points (hint: if you don't like it, I don't give a shit).Ash Dragonshadow 16:53, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Did you make a point? Cuilan 16:47, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry
but i can not be nice about this. are you stupid? arena net, please. use your #$%$ing brains. In the April mAT, GWCA, one of your top 16 guilds, used a bot to win. Paired with his over powered interrupts due to the fact that he CAN NOT miss, you are now going to BUFF interrupts? please explain your logic behind this. if you do not believe this accusation, then watch the match(GWCA vs YMCA). Distracting Shot gets diverted numerous times on GWCA's ranger, and after awhile, he began to switch to a shield set when diversion landed on him so that his bot wouldn't fire a dshot off and get diverted. I understand that maybe GW1 no longer matters to you, as after all, you have mentioned that the ladder and PvP is no longer important, and do not say other wise because I WILL go out and find your previous post about said matter. But I at least feel that you should take GW1 serious until you decide to release GW2. No more of your retarded updates, and tiebreakers, and PvE promotional stunts. We PvPers (in a PvP oriented game) ARE SICK OF IT. While us PvPers are fighting for rps and cape trims, we don't want to dc and get gypped out of matches because you're too stupid to figure out that the 5 year anniversary can wait till the week after the monthly tournament. Yours Truly Vhang 21:34, 25 April 2010 (UTC) I assume most of these won't even make it to PvP. --Kyoshi (Talk) 23:06, 25 April 2010 (UTC) ) will make it into PvP.
 * Yes, because PvP is the center of the game and 90% of people that play Guild Wars play PvP the majority of the time.[/sarcasm] Whether you like it or not, most people play more PvE than PvP, if not all PvE.  If Anet is going to focus on one part of the game only, which I admit is rather stupid, it makes perfect sense that they would focus on PvE over PvP. Midio 22:04, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Very bad comment considering Anet originally intended this game to be a PvP game. PvE was originally an intro to PvP and just ended up being a bad offspring of unintelligence in the player base.Vhang 23:03, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Whatever it was intended to be originally, it's now mainly PvE. The QQing PvPers will have to live with that.
 * And did you notice this?: "The focus of the changes will be to improve the role of the Mesmer in both normal and high-end PvE, but when appropriate, the changes will apply to PvP as well."
 * Who's unintelligent now? =p Cuilan 23:21, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * GWCA didn't get in the top 16. GWCA's match is impossible to watch now, because they failed, even with a bot. Dshot isn't a mesmer skill. This has no relation to the mesmer skill update preview. --Macros 23:43, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * PROTIP: PEOPLE CAN BOT MESMERS, TOO. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  00:29, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * k, you do that. Meanwhile, this topic still has nothing to do with pve mesmer updates. --Macros 00:40, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Here, I made you a bulleted list so that you could follow along:
 * Premise: Some of these updates ("where appropriate"
 * Premise: Bots are already abusive in PvP.
 * Conclusion: Mesmer bots will become even more abusive in PvP.
 * You're welcome! :D [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  01:20, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * None of these updates are appropriate for pvp. Anyone who says so is a shitter. --Macros 01:30, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi, we're anet and we have no idea what's appropriate for PvP. I guess that makes us shitters, huh?  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  01:47, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Now you understand. Glad I could help. --Macros 01:55, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you totally missed my point. If we were talking about a company that knew what was appropriate, then we could reasonably expect that none of these changes would see PvP.
 * We're not talking about that company. We're talking about ArenaNet.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  02:07, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hm. In that case, is that topic on team quitter still there? I might read up on how to run a bot. I hope it has bulleted lists. --Macros 03:43, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

A few words about mesmer.
Maybe I`m not as experienced as many ppl here playing mesmers, these who like this profession, and these who hate it, but I`d like to share a few thoughts with all of you. I played as a mes(my main and also first char) from April 2009, and had break from February.

Many ppl claim, that this prof is one of the hardest, and I agree. I believe, it`s not only because you have to think what you are doing, what kind of bar you have to take on specifc maps and have basic knowledge about all skills, but also you have to react fast. And, apart from what ppl say, I would advise all new players, to start from this one. I learned a lot about game, thanks to mesmer. There`s no stupid pressing buttons while playing it.

I have heard from everyone who I met in game that mesmers suck in pve. I totally disagree, and imo, role which this prof plays there is one of the most important ones. Even if noone sees what you are doing. Guild wars for me was always a game where you HAVE TO play in team, and mes in team is really helpful. 1. Many guys tell that interrupts in HM are almost impossible so far. It`s not true. You have to focus on enemies, and have reflex. That`s all about it.

2. Whatever Anet will improve, mes for me will be always char who links skills from all classes. Not only uses his/her own.

3. Skills with stealing speed rarely played important role. So, this change is ok.

4. 75% of players think that VoR is the best and the only skill which mesmer should use. That`s why I hate this skill.

5. It`s sad that ppl use bots. Playing games = relying on your own abilities. "Botters" are worse than noobs. And playing games gives fun only when you do sth alone, not when bot makes this for you.

--Yennefer Maderius 01:17, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Some of what you said was total fail. At least you're only an IP. 71.161.205.137 03:36, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

I was writing this at 3am, so I could say sth wrong. But general thought is still the same. And if I wrote sth what "was total fail", could you precise what was that, Mr/Mrs RandomIP? And it`s only my opinion, so you can disagree of course.--Yennefer Maderius 14:57, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Most of what you you asked is answered in the preview. Not sure what you're talking about with the rest of what you said. Cuilan 17:20, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Nothing note-worthy here... you could have simply stopped at "I'm new to this profession but found it useful and easy to learn". Unfortunately you didn't, and in doing so revealed that you believe casting spells faster is some kind of display of skill in PvE.  It is not.  Most team metas in PvE are designed so that timing and quick bar chains are completely unnecessary. ...then again the Speed Clear metas also run consumables for faster casting speed.  IoW: the entire profession is made obsolete by a couple pieces of easily farmed candy :\   ...GG, next time do a little more homework.  -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 06:59, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Umm.. ok. So I made mistake by writing it. A few unnecessary things + I should have written: I`m NOT new to this profession, but I had little break and I don`t know how playing on mes looks like now. And I wanted to describe my general impression which I had at the beginnings. Sorry for too many words, and probably wrong topic, which is a huge unnecessary arguing about skill changes. Unnecessary because they don`t listen what players say and will make everything how they like. Little suggestion: I prefer when someone tells me what is wrong, than yelling "total fail". Doesn`t help much, and scares new players from writing here. --Yennefer Maderius 16:55, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Many guys tell that interrupts in HM are almost impossible so far. It`s not true. You have to focus on enemies, and have reflex. That`s all about it."


 * Interrupting in HM does not take reflexes, it takes intuition. Try interrupting skills on reflex when they activate in less than 3⁄4 of a second. It is almost impossible, even with a reasonable Fast Casting attribute. To put the bad design of HM into purely logical terms... Most spells have 3⁄4 or 1 second activations (ignoring 1⁄4, since it should be obvious why those are almost impossible to interrupt). Average human reaction time is 1⁄2 of a second, while interrupts (apart from some warrior ones and ignoring flight time) are 1⁄4 of a second. 1⁄2+1⁄4=3⁄4. This means the most reasonable time it takes to interrupt is 3⁄4 of a second, making even 3⁄4 second spells unreliable to interrupt on reflex. This is fine, as that was the point of 3⁄4 second spells. However, the most common spell activations in the game become and 1⁄2 of a second in any HM area worth interrupting. Not only are these skills faster than the time it takes for the average human to interrupt on reflex, but activates before they can even think about interrupting. Tell me how that does not completely destroy the usefulness of reflex interruption. I do strongly agree with your other points, though.  -~=Ϛρѧякγ  User Sparky, the Tainted charr sig.PNG  (τѧιк)  23:40, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, good interruption is a strong combination of prediction and reflex;
 * The time it takes you to interrupt something is the time it takes you to:
 * Receive a server ping
 * Recognize the skill
 * Decide to interrupt it
 * Queue the appropriate skill
 * Ping the server
 * Activate the skill
 * Wait for flight time
 * By properly anticipating a skill, you dramatically cut down the time spent on 2, 3, and 4 once your target decides to activate their skill. It's also worth noting that players with herd interrupts spend less time on 4 than players with spell-only interrupts.  You can, because of this, reflex-interrupt with reaction times well below the human average.
 * While I'm on the subject, I feel inclined to point out that AI spends a negligible amount of time on 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, which is why AI with interrupts is such utter bs. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  04:39, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * that's why we have shame or guilt, and they give me energy too, those should be upgraded. You can also shut ele's and monks down by preventing them to cast. Deffinalty in PvE this works coz the NPC mostly waits until the skill wears off. And when tey do cast, you know they gonna never cast again or directly recast. shutting a monk or ele down sometimes just takes looking at their skill bar and dooing nothing except auto fire yourselfe. I know if some people look at me the might think i'm leeching, But that's why I'm mostly call and try to direct the group. So they know I'm active. Sometimes I call let say the monk and shut down the ele in the mean time. It make the work of my party more effective.
 * Shame and Guilt are supposed to be getting buffed in this update. Regardless, they are not interrupts, nor are they effective against NPCs. P.S. to Raine, I was actually talking about just using whatever interrupt available the moment you see them begin to activate anything. :P -~=Ϛρѧякγ  User Sparky, the Tainted charr sig.PNG  (τѧιк)  00:17, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Keystone/Signets
What happened to the signet ideas? Keystone was obviously overpowered, but it could have been worked out. Come on....do something with Keystone/signets. FC is expressly set up to affect signets and has signet elites, but they're all terrible. 208.100.1.46 02:17, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * When was Keystone overpowered?? Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:58, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * When you could maintain Signet of Humility on 3 targets. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  21:02, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow, awesome. Reaper of Scythes ** User Reaper of ScythesJuggernaut1.png 21:11, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Why does sig hum even exist? [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  21:46, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, that too, but I was actually talking about the TK notes. Keystone was being looked at to do AoE damage+interrupts whenever you use a signet (+add armor or something). It was pretty overpowered with some of the other ideas they had (Mantra of Sigs would heal and affect signet recharge, etc.), but it would have been nice for it to not suck quite so much in PvE. 208.100.1.46 22:06, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Lol, are you really breaking the NDA? <font color="#A55858">Misery  10:01, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * DO WANT! Cuilan 00:18, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, yeah, because most of the TK members don't tell all of their friends. They barely tell us anything anyway and they take forever to do anything. The skills have been tested for weeks, yet we still have to wait 1-2 more weeks for them to be implemented. And half the things they told us aren't even here, so I don't know what they're planning on doing with that. I barely understand the point of it anymore. 208.100.1.46 17:44, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This is an important lesson that must be learned in today's world of pseudo-life: It's all about appearances.  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:25, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Also tell moar plx Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:25, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Testing These Changes
Please make sure you do thorough testing of all these changes. Make sure you test groups of 3-4 mesmers. From all the skills that seem to be getting more spamability, aoe, and inherent armor ignoring damage it sounds like it could turn HM into EM. Looking at the changes above, several OP-sounding builds come to mind, including 4 mes with spammable hexes and shatter, and 4 mes with panic/inep/instability. As difficult as HM already isn't, I'd rather not see this become the new discord-way. I mean really, anything that could actually replace a necro in pve is too powerful. Pantsburgh 00:30, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think they should be ABLE to replace a necromancer if someone wants to come as one or if they think it'd be appropriate for the group they're in. Cuilan 02:48, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You don't seem to understand the reality of an Arms race... Either Discord & Reaping needs to get nerfed again and Necs stop being better at ritualist than ritualists are, or Mesmers get just as O^P to bump atleast one Nec from that team... Honestly, the last time someone said to themselves "oh crap, mesmers have an impact in PvE!" is when they berserked themselves to death on VoR, Empathy or Clumsiness hex spam which doesn't happen nearly enough.  B/c that's exactly what it takes for most thick headed PvE'ers to take notice of a profession and respect it.  -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 07:26, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Mesmer
All of you can whine and QQ about them all day long, but the truth of the matter was... They were broken and they will be fixed. I think the up-coming update will help a lot and make many players HAPPY. For those that are "upset", just QQ more as no one is really listening to you or your pathetic QQing (whining) at playing one. Just because you want to "brag" and "think" you're the "best" or "really good" or "great" at "PvP" or "PvE" mesmer, doesn't give weight. Anet knows what they want and they're going to run the game their way, not by the way of immaturity or those that complain thinking they know best. They don't work there or know the aspects of this game or anything behind it and Anet is going to do things their way, no matter what. --Tesslina 00:44, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Your post shows your ignorance of the complaints above, the playerbase in general, and ANet in specific. (Here's a hint: Being paid to do something doesn't instantly make you an expert at it, or Starbucks wouldn't fuck up my coffee so much.) Good day sir. 66.45.237.122 00:48, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I laugh. Only reason people like Starbucks is because of how they create their coffee. The only reason why your coffee is messed up, is the employee who may not have the "techniques" to do it right or your taste buds change. I didn't call Arenanet experts, but I said "Anet is going to do things their way, no matter what." So, all posts above are pointless as I am not ignorant, but I laugh at the rest who don't see that it's useless to complain, because that won't matter or they could just create opinions, suggestions at the feedback suggestion center of each skill and how "they" would fix it. That's what it's there for. <3 --Tesslina 00:58, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * If you think this update fixes mesmers I weep for you.Hitojin 01:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I laugh. It will help, but nothing is "permanent" or "perfect". I'll weep for you, until you learn to play. <3 --Tesslina 01:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * and ill weep again when you stop being  bad m'kay? Hitojin 01:18, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Or you know, you could just both stop bitching at one another and drop it. Needless to say this anet has stated it is taking a look at the problem areas in each profession in turn. This time round it's mesmers. Let's just sit back and see what they have for us before moaning about it, shall we? -- Salome   [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 01:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree! It's sad to think those that speak truth are "bad", but Salome you spoke true words! Love to you <3 <3 --Tesslina 01:31, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Tesslina, while it's fine to decry the whiners, it's incorrect to say that their complaints are useless. Note the Feedback prefix at the top of the page. The reason ArenaNet does skill update previews now is precisely to gather player opinions, from all parts of the spectrum. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 01:35, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I would say that it is better to make suggestions and helpful ideas than to complain about problems as how would Anet know how to fix that, if they don't know enough "good" information? --Tesslina 01:41, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Been there, done that. Apparently, however, ANet chooses to ignore the playerbase (and we IPs can't make pages at all, unless I'm missing something), so all we can really do is try to point them to the gems among the sand. Of course, more than a few of us (myself included!) use this as a chance to let off our frustrations as well. Basically, this is the part where we try to point out that ANet's way of doing things is flawed, even though history tells us we're just going to be ignored again (with the important exception of the April 1st update, which gives us hope enough to carry on through the rest of the year).
 * Also, Starbucks fucks up my coffee. I order a plain latte and get a bunch of blueberry flavoring crap in it. What? 66.45.237.122 01:57, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Must be your taste buds changing. --67.240.88.57 02:02, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree and that I don't have a problem with. I just laugh at those who think they're "better" than others out there and that they "know it all". --Tesslina 02:04, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Starbucks could have messed up your order. They did mine. :-( --Tesslina 02:04, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * That's true, but there's a surprising number of people out there who lack common sense. There's a difference between arrogance at thinking you're super awesome and frustration at people who do Great Northern Wall a dozen times before thinking to bring a speed boost or even skip the cutscene. 66.45.237.122 02:31, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * You've shat so much lecturing on this page by now that you might as well have just registered so you could watch it like a normal user. But I guess it's easier to criticize everyone else than to post real proposals that won't get read anyway, lolamirite IP?  Or should I call you B&-Sock instead? -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 07:34, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * One of the things I hate most about any gaming community is the presence of elitist players and attitudes. Even if you (not directed at anyone) are a superior player with an above-average understanding of the game and how it functions, the game wasn't made just for you, and rage-posting doesn't prove anything or change anyone's mind about the issue at hand - it just makes. you. an. asshole. -Ninjatek 12:30, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ninjatek, should people who are better at something be able to do it more effectively than people who are not? [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  19:39, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Durr, of course they do and that's their reward for not being baddies. But that doesn't mean they earned 1st privs on lecturing everyone else about what's "FUN". -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 01:54, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Barrage + Preparation for PvE
It would still deal less damage than and perform less utlity than rits/eles/proposed mesmers. Please allow rangers to bring Barrage and a preparation in PvE. 58.106.43.167 13:08, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Barrage and Disrupting Accuracy on an assassin would be a bit much? Maybe some can be changed to a different skill type other than a preparation. Cuilan 17:25, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Use Splinter Weapon. Use a Conjure spell. Use PvE-only spells and power them with Barrage + Zealous mod and high Expertise. Rangers weren't meant to be a damage class iirc, and the above are still very effective considering they weren't. They would be just about insane were preparations allowed in the mix.
 * Poison on 6 targets at once? Or maybe (as stated above) you want to interrupt 5 of 6 targeted enemies in a single shot, while gaining insane energy the entire time from high Critical Strikes? What about interrupting an entire adjacent mob in one volley? Too much could be exploited. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 17:54, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Poisoning 6 adjacent mobs is so broken when you can light them all on fire. Mass interrupting is a huge problem, which is why anet's making a hex that can do it while you're AFK.  In a best-case scenario, you'll be getting some bonus damage from something like Read the Wind or Expert Focus, or maybe an IAS from Rapid Fire.  That wouldn't be broken in PvP, so why would it be broken in the part of the game where no one apparently gives a shit about balance?  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  19:45, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "barrage is bad"
 * ahahaHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:18, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I never said that these Mesmer changes didn't look broken to me. Many of them do. Mesmers aren't supposed to be about damage and AoE rupts and AoE KDs.
 * I did say that Rangers aren't meant to be the main damage dealers, which is why Searing Flames is not a Ranger skill. I also think SF is overpowered (hell, it and RoJ are the main damage whenever my guild does Urgoz, and it was a lot of what people ran in HA for a while way back, and some still do), so I don't really think that's a valid comparison.
 * By the way, if you think nobody gives a shit about PvE balance...well, you may not have noticed, but this entire feedback talk page is about PvE balance. Somebody cares, or else there wouldn't be any discussion here, eh?
 * The things I mentioned wouldn't be broken in PvP because Barrage is mostly bad in PvP. People understand to scatter after getting hit once or twice, and after that you're wielding a bad Power Shot as your elite skill. I've used it in Jade Quarry and that's about all you can do with it. And that hardly counts as PvP, seeing as you're mostly fighting NPCs and bots. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 23:56, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Interrupting or Knocking down with barrage is old news. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 01:47, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Knocking down wasn't even mentioned here, and it only serves to prove my point that barrage doesn't need to allow more power. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 15:59, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This is a common sentiment, evidently. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  02:12, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Eh, basically. I recognize it. I just think it can get better. Not perfect, not even "damn near" perfect, but better than it is now. Will it? I'm no psychic. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 02:32, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's PvE. If you're not a damage class (or a monk/tank) no-one wants to bring you - the mesmer update should show you that much. Removing a preparation in PvE is a relic of the pre PvE PvP split days. No-one said Barrage is bad. It could be better without being overpowered. 58.106.43.167 17:33, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Cute terminology except that Anet specifically gave Rangers a newer but balanced version of barrage that they COULD use preparations with. It might be a Prophecies-only Elite at the ass-end of the campaign but it works just fine if your motivations are pure and you're truly relying on preparations to win instead of trying to exploit lots of big yellow numbers like a Splinter/Crit barrager does. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 21:41, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Cute terminology except that Anet specifically gave Rangers a newer but balanced version of barrage that they COULD use preparations with. It might be a Prophecies-only Elite at the ass-end of the campaign but it works just fine if your motivations are pure and you're truly relying on preparations to win instead of trying to exploit lots of big yellow numbers like a Splinter/Crit barrager does. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 21:41, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

QQ Mitigation
Well, poo on all you QQers. Anet, thank you for this preview, and it's looking amazing! These changes look not only fun to play but able to keep mesmers on equal footing with necros and eles. Sure, some of this looks a little too good to be true - but then again, so does Spiteful Spirit, Searing Flames, Savanah Heat, Soul Reaping... The only thing ever posted on the wiki feedbacks is whining and crying, and usually self righteous bastardry. Read the Mesmer section of the Guru forums and these preview changes are all found there in things that many more people from a wider selection of the game wanted and hoped Anet would do for pve. So again, thank you Anet, this is exactly what the pve community was looking for! :D Lillium 00:35, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * People complain when they're dissatisfied. People are generally dissatisfied for a reason.
 * On a related note, it's not that people choose to ignore the good things anet does for the game; it's just that you've chosen to ignore the responses to good changes. For example, people expressed gratitude when Shattering Assault and Backbreaker were nerfed.
 * tl;dr: open your eyes imo. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  01:26, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Tbh, any change that isn't a nerf is a welcomed change. It makes the game and what I care about most, theorycrafting, new. ــѕт. мıкε  00:55, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What that person said.^ Cuilan 01:24, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Most people call that power creep. It's not welcome to me. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 01:42, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I've never heard such an ignorant statement. More appalling is that someone else shares your mentality that everything in all games should be broken. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 01:48, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Heh, I'm talking about PvE; it's already broken. I don't care what happens to PvP, tbh. I also assumed most of the changes are for PvE. ــѕт.  мıкε  01:56, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * So you want to break it further. /doh
 * I can't say I share your opinion, but seeing where your view is, there's really no argument to make. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 02:33, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think Mike's opinion is perfectly valid. Who cares about balance? Give us something new and fun. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 02:54, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think Mike's opinion is perfectly valid. Who cares about balance? Give us something new and fun. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 02:54, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

lolPvE. Guru people are so dumb and annoying. Morphy 07:44, 29 April 2010 (UTC) <-- Reasoning is going to fail here, Cuilan. I never said it wasn't valid. But with a difference in goals like this, reasoning why one side is better becomes moot. That's all I'm saying. I understand your opinion, and I see why it could be fun. I would just rather see the opposite. I won't even complain if it turns out your way; more lulz to go around. --Kyoshi (Talk) 15:53, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Keeping only certain professions powerful isn't fixing anything. Cuilan 15:34, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Who cares about balance?"
 * "I think Mike's opinion is perfectly valid."
 * Shard, before calling people out on their "ignorant statements" actually think for a second until you realize that change is not limited to buffs (powercreep) or nerfs (qq-fest). There is a spectrum, and I see this, in reference to PvE, more as a shift in the power of certain professions, rather than power creep.  Previous updates have introduced major power creep into the game, i'll give you that. Windtalker 19:13, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Nerfbat, sup. Remember invincible permas?  Yeah, they're gone.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  20:06, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * They're still usable, though. Nerfs here and there are good, but what they did to Smiter's Boon in PvP was a tad excessive. >.> ــѕт.  мıкε  20:29, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * They're still usable, though. Nerfs here and there are good, but what they did to Smiter's Boon in PvP was a tad excessive. >.> ــѕт.  мıкε  20:29, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

We could always get everything that's meta nerfed; that should turn around power creep for a bit. >.> But yeh, PvE, as far as I can tell, is meant to be broken; it's more interesting that way. If it weren't, it would get old much faster than it already does. Some of you may not have noticed, but probably half of skills (I looked at Warrior skills and counted 63 of 142 that seemed next to useless in both PvE and PvP, so 44% for Warriors) in GW are unused, because they suck (relatively, of course). Also, it's pretty obvious that many of these updates would be nuts for PvP; even Psychic Instability looks too OP for PvE. If you get two PI Heroes, you can come close to knock-locking an entire mob, something I'll probably make a build for if the update goes through. =D I'm more interested in the builds than actually playing the game, so I doubt that I'm in the norm of GW players, and my opinion should matter little overall because of this. I've come to expect nerfs, balancing and stagnation in PvP, but not in PvE. PvP was also more fun than PvE for me, anyway; titles never really interested me, and it didn't take much to get the armor I liked. Mesmers need some love in PvE, and "any love is good love, so I took what I could get". XD ــѕт.  мıкε  20:27, 29 April 2010 (UTC) You sure it could get older quicker than this? --Kyoshi (Talk) 20:33, 29 April 2010 (UTC) Your opinion. Hard Mode ideally exists to be a harder mode for good players. But in reality it's just a new way to play with mindless OP skills. But when things are heavily imbalanced, they're forced to play Rock to even participate. Ever seen a balanced group (without a spell tank) complete the UW? --Kyoshi (Talk) 05:16, 30 April 2010 (UTC) No, its not. But mesmers are not a powerful profession in PvE (if not the least powerful primary profession in PvE - paragons at least have imbagon), and in PvE every profession should feel powerful. If you don't want to run a complete gimmick, buy runs for everything, or play your secondary then yes, mesmers do need this kind of serious PvE buff. Sure. You can be like Yasmin above and only focus on shutting down the highest priority targets... But in a group of say 15 to 20 mobs? You're not helping your party nearly as much as a necromancer or an extra damage class would be. You're even less useful when everything dies about 3 seconds after you click over to it and cast an expensive long recharge non-damage hex or interrupt - and that wasn't the called mob. Lillium 08:36, 30 April 2010 (UTC) It wasn't an attempt at offering to the discussion. I'm not going to argue whether PvP or PvE is more important. Some play only one or the other, and some play both. I play both, and I think both should, ideally, be balanced. Importance of balance is heavily opinionated, and so I'm not going to bother arguing it. Well, let me put it in perspective. If you want to join a group for the Underworld, you must a) have a very good guild running a powerful, near-balanced build, b) run a very, very good Hero team (henchmen aren't even allowed in UW, are they?), or maybe heroes with two players - I don't know how well that works - or c) run a gimmick with a PUG and hope they all know what they're doing. My guild has run Searing Flames eles in Urgoz's Warren (Hard Mode, of course) for as long as I can remember, very effectively. Two eles also ran it the lone time we did UW. If people don't run SF it has little to do with an elementalist's power and more to do with a gimmick that has more power.  Why would you run SY on a sin, when an imbagon charges it twice as fast and can also run TNTF? Besides, sins need ele (or mesmer, rarely) as a secondary to keep up Shadow Form and make running a scythe worth it in elite areas, where enchantment removal is heavy and damage is high. I quoted wrong. I was referring to where you mentioned Rock gets a buff. Being unable to join a group if you don't run a particular build is not okay with me. Having only one build considered viable for a profession is not okay with me. When there's no viable alternatives available to a single overpowered meta build, the game quickly gets stale. I thought you completed everything in GW alone? (Not that I expect anyone to complete a 12-man area with a group of four, at least with any efficiency.) But when people will not take a person because they're missing a single skill on the meta bar, it's gotten too far. Being unable to get a group because of not having one skill != being unable to get into a group because your build is simply terrible. I think you need to look up the definition of "overpowered" again, because you don't quite seem to get it. The point is not whether anyone can use it. The point is whether it's so powerful that nobody will let you not use it. And requiring that someone goes /W and fills a skill on their bar with SY restricts the versatility the user can put into their build. --Kyoshi (Talk) 16:54, 30 April 2010 (UTC) Onoes, i want to run a manly spike, but i don't have whirlwind. You should take me anyways!. Stupid point is stupid. ohaider. 98.248.90.248 20:58, 1 May 2010 (UTC) Thanks for elaborating on a tangent point. Wait, no, I don't appreciate that at all. Did you miss the point about things being overpowered? --Kyoshi (Talk) 00:28, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "PvE, as far as I can tell, is meant to be broken; it's more interesting that way. If it weren't, it would get old much faster than it already does."
 * Let me introduce you to a concept called balance. It's where things that are too powerful get nerfed, and things that are not powerful enough get buffed.  That means that useless skills shouldn't exist, but neither should skills that are way too good.
 * Also, overpowered skills make the meta stale way faster than underpowered skills. If there's one skill that's grossly overpowered, it limits teams to very few competitive options: you either run the overpowered stuff or lose to it.  Conversely, an underpowered skill does the opposite: it limits choices to everything else.
 * Let's say that there's 3 skills in a game called RockPaperScissor Wars: Rock, Paper, and Scissors. In a balanced game, playing each one would have an equal chance to win as it does to lose.  That means that people would always have 3 viable choices.  But then FNet buffs Rock so that it never loses; what happens?  Everyone runs Rock always.  FNet then nerfs Rock so that it never wins; what happens?  People only play Paper and Scissors.
 * Which gets stale faster? [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  20:52, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't want to make mediocre (compared to pre-nerf) builds for PvE, tbh. In PvE, it isn't always as simple as rolling another profession to play something more OP. Perhaps you've already been running a Sin in PvE and were looking to get titles, etc., and then you decide WE Scythe Warriors may be better, but you still want to run Sins so you will. They don't have to make things more broken, but nerfs in PvE would be disappointing. As long as things change, and I can make new builds instead of archiving ones that weren't OP enough, I'll be satisfied. PvP evidently needs balance, but it isn't as important in PvE. Would you like to see all of the PvE-only skills removed? I'm sure that would make PvE a little more balanced but also less interesting. Hard Mode exists to make things a little less mindless when you run OP skills. Soul Reaping is also pretty OP in PvE, but I wouldn't be happy if they nerfed it. In PvE, people might still run Rock, anyway; it's their choice. In PvP, there are builds that are still meta after over a year with little change to their bars (e.g. Shock Axe, Hammers, Backline Monks). The main 6 professions tend to see more use than the others in PvP, too. ــѕт.  мıкε  21:25, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh cool, so the problem is actually this HoM thing or GWAMM which locks you into playing one character even though you might not want to. Also Shock Axe is almost never run any more and monk bars have changed a lot. <font color="#A55858">Misery  22:00, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "PvP evidently needs balance, but it isn't as important in PvE."
 * "Hard Mode exists to make things a little less mindless when you run OP skills."
 * "In PvE, people might still run Rock, anyway; it's their choice."
 * Of course. Just not since the UW was modified to counter Shadow Form and coincidentally destroyed every possible alternative. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 05:43, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Keeping only certain professions powerful isn't fixing anything."
 * Dismissing arguments as opinion offers nothing to the discussion. I can say the sky is green; that's my opinion, because experience is subjective. Of course, the opinion of the mass is generally that's it's blue (during common day conditions), but the mass can be wrong. I'm a nihilist, so the only opinion that truly matters to me is my own; I may be inspired by others', but in the end, importance is personal.
 * I also did everything alone in GW; I've done Slaver's Exile with H/H (albeit, it took me at least 12 hours to finish the last two dungeons, perhaps after one or two failed attempts, because I didn't have Frozen Soil, and I was probably running SF Eles against Forgewight), and PUGs hardly every worked out better than H/H, so I can't empathize with "being forced" to play one build/character over another. There are always going to be some builds that are better than others; that's inevitable, so balancing everything is an idealistic dream, but balancing the professions may be attainable. However, we won't be able to balance every profession for every area, so Eles and Sins make good tanks in most (all?) Elite areas; we shouldn't try to change that, but at least allow other professions to be desirable. Eles, until the Ether Renewal buff, couldn't offer much to a team in HM, because they'd often see their damage slashed in half. Sins can run scythes, but then they can't run "SY!"; if they want to run "SY!" and daggers while dealing a huge amount of damage, they may need half of a team devoted to increasing their damage. If we could see equal use of each profession in the whole of PvE and PvP, that would be great, but making every profession equal for each area isn't as simple.
 * Finally, I thought Rock was supposed to be nerfed, so why would anyone be forced to play it? Assuming you meant Paper or Scissors, Rock should, ideally, still be made desirable to play in other areas. Also, at this point, I assume Rock, Paper and Scissors are professions, because being "forced" to play a good build over another of one profession to participate isn't necessarily a bad thing. You're also forced to buy Eye of the North (or otherwise acquire a key) if you want to do Slaver's Exile, and very elitist/specific teams probably won't accept you unless you have every GW game, because chance are, the build they want you to run requires all of them or most of them (if it's one of the first 6 professions). I went to the Deep with my Ele before I had prophecies, but I was rejected, because I didn't have Meteor Shower. It wasn't a big deal to me, tbh.
 * tl;dr: being "forced" to play something to participate with other players isn't necessarily a bad thing. I wouldn't want a Mending Frenzy Healsig W/Mo (or worse, Mo/W) on my team (unless for shits and giggles in AB or RA). Every prof should be able to get into a PUG for regular missions, but for every Elite area, this may be too idealistic. ــѕт.  мıкε  14:27, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Every now and then, a nerf is actually useful in PvE, though (e.g. Shadow Form, UW farming, Cryway, Ursanway, etc.), but Anet's focus should probably be on making PvP balanced and PvE new. ــѕт.  мıкε  14:41, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Save Yourselves!" is OP; does it need a nerf? No, because any physical prof can run it if they can go /W. Plus, no one runs full physical teams, and you'd only really need one or two copies of it, anyway. ــѕт.  мıкε  14:58, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Dismissing arguments as opinion offers nothing to the discussion."
 * "I also did everything alone in GW...so I can't empathize with "being forced" to play one build/character over another."
 * "Eles, until the Ether Renewal buff, couldn't offer much to a team in HM, because they'd often see their damage slashed in half."
 * "Sins can run scythes, but then they can't run "SY!""
 * "I thought Rock was supposed to be nerfed, so why would anyone be forced to play it?"
 * "because being "forced" to play a good build over another of one profession to participate isn't necessarily a bad thing."
 * "I went to the Deep with my Ele before I had prophecies, but I was rejected, because I didn't have Meteor Shower. It wasn't a big deal to me, tbh."
 * "I wouldn't want a Mending Frenzy Healsig W/Mo (or worse, Mo/W) on my team (unless for shits and giggles in AB or RA)."
 * ""Save Yourselves!" is OP; does it need a nerf? No, because any physical prof can run it if they can go /W."
 * "But when people will not take a person because they're missing a single skill on the meta bar, it's gotten too far."
 * "Not that I expect anyone to complete a 12-man area with a group of four, at least with any efficiency."
 * "ohaider"
 * "Onoes, i want to run a manly spike, but i don't have whirlwind. You should take me anyways!"
 * When was that picture taken?? That is BULLSHIT!!! Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:04, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Like 2 weeks or something. loleuros. 98.248.90.248 04:04, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Scaling Mess-up?
Lots of skills have effects that do stuff for 0 damage or remove 0 energy lol 24.77.249.56 06:10, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the descriptions were updated, but the skills weren't. Or something.  Stolen speed is still 25% (I think).  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  06:15, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, and Calculated Risk doesn't do what it says. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  06:25, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 19:06, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * ...how is anything anyone said earlier in the section at all ambiguous? [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  03:40, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Don't Buff Hexways:
...there's currently not enough viable hex removal in-game to counteract it, and fire-n-forget hex damage promotes mindless play as well. Only buff skills in such a way that they reward things like "interrupting", "skillful usage" of skills, etc... (i.e.: WoH, Bull's Strike, etc.). Don't buff skills so that brainless players can win (i.e.: Blinding Surge, Rupt-spam Rangers, Assassins in general...) Reward good play, not bad play! Please Anet I beg of you: don't ruin it for us in PvP. --65.33.198.229 22:23, 30 April 2010 (UTC) What are you talking about? Lillium 06:23, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You're worried about people playing Hexways in PvE? 141.165.170.209 22:36, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Even PvE should be balanced to be honest. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  02:17, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Then aim for the Necromancers and Ritualists, tbh. Sab/Disc + DoA Elite missions with heroes + now Rits have imbagon-like capabilities with Soul Twisting... etc., etc. 141.165.171.4 17:18, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "there's currently not enough viable hex removal in-game to counteract it"
 * It's PvE, for goodness sake! No, I don't think that the Mesmer updates will be deemed "appropriate" for a PvP stage, so in the case of PvE areas, give those creeps a spell-immune brick wall (if I may steal the phrase from you, Ms. Valen) to ram its face into and watch the change culminate in 0, net impact on the player. 141.165.171.4 06:28, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Lilli, you don't know what you're talking about. Thanks.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  06:41, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If PvP is really in the question here, Hexes are already overpowered enough to make short work of any of the above mentioned skills, all without Mesmers. If you don't believe me, Lillium, you don't have to take my word for it. 141.165.171.12 19:50, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Raine, you're an ass and not making any valid points. Thanks. For PvE there's already plenty of SF/Obby/SB tanks for players against monsters. An update in hexes really means very little to them. Then there's your wall of minions and spirits. If you mean the mobs don't have enough hex removal that's more an issue of unbalanced mob groups, though some groups are very anti-hex. Still, its kindof just a factor of PvE. PvP... They did say not all that was going in PvP, since it has been said this is an update mainly for PvE. Still, there's obviously enough necromancer and otherwise hexes that buffing mesmers isn't the issue. As the IP pointed out with a team build devoid of mesmer hexes. By the way, that team can't be expecting to see too many hexes that matter against them if they've only got one hex removal for an entire team. >.> 69.245.145.219 22:45, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I think that was a VERY valid point, actually. If you don't know what you're talking about, you shouldn't comment on it.  "Hexway is fine because of hex removals"?  Really?  Because it's not painfully obvious to everyone, let me explain it in great detail for you.
 * First of all, look at how many hexes balanced teams can afford to bring. At the very most, they're running a Paragon and they've got one copy of hexbreaker aria (most teams have zero), one Convert (many teams also have zero of these), one Veil, and one Cure.  With the exception of Aria, all of these skills have 12-second recharges and affect one party member.  Aria's 8 Adrenaline; have you ever tried building adrenaline with Faint?  8 is a LOT.
 * Now let's look at what the meta hexway brings:
 * VoR, Insidious, Faint, Suffering, Lingering Curse, Backfire, Empathy, Grasping Earth, two copies of Seeping Wound, and another SW or Soul Bind. Oh, and they might have Rising Bile.  Two copies of SW alone recharge faster than monks' hex removal, and Converting is limited because it costs 15 energy.  But let's say you convert on recharge.  There's still a MASSIVE gap between what you can remove and what they can cast.
 * In the mean time, people are either unable to play the game or they blow up whenever they do. Or maybe they don't even get a choice and just blow up anyway.
 * The obvious answer is to bring more hex removal, right?
 * Nope; there's a limit to how many skills you can equip. Every additional hex removal you throw in is crippling you against non-hexways.  You either build for it and lose to other teams or you don't build for it and people drown in purple arrows.
 * Hexway is overpowered because hexes are overpowered. Stop buffing them.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  23:45, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * ^ This, Lillium. I wasn't supporting your point. I was pointing out that Mesmers were not the sole issue in Hexways, which could be quite OP without them - e.g. Jaggedway. I also think this is a non-issue though, as ArenaNet would have to have gone off their medication to think nearly any of these updates would be appropriate for PvP.
 * Moreover, if you'd like to refer back to Jaggedway, it will show you plenty of reasons for Monks to sweat over whether they will cast the appropriate spells to remove these hexes. Hex removal means little under Soul Bind, Lingering Curse and Spoil Victor. 141.165.171.12 01:37, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The medication well runneth dry. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  05:46, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Why not use others' experiences to see and check if there realy are some problems that you cant overcome: why not make some pages in an appropriate section for people to show with screenshots and linked videos how something considered overpowered can be overcomed with the desired criterias (balanced/not balanced, pug/coordinated, time-limit/fun factor etc). But personnaly i think anet should be more communicative about what they had in mind with the design of their areas/monsters. Some of us might look stupid to anet the way they handle the chalenges offered by the game. But when you think of it, i know some other equally clever people who dont want all their players to fully enjoy their game. I will never stop thinking that things like a wisdom title based on appropriate skills usage with a "+5pt for using skill type x on target y" on the screen will always help people more than laughing at them when they suck. Unless you dont like your players... Yseron - 90.9.120.26 10:14, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * We tried that on the test crew, the problem is that nobody ever agrees. –Jette 10:22, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, I was thinking after this conversation yesterday, that a possible balancing mechanism for Hexways could be an attribute penalty to the hexes, dependent on how large the stack was. E.g. 2 would incur no penalty, but a stack of 3 might reduced the attribute value of the hexes on that specific person by one or two points. I wouldn't know how to properly scale it or if I'm thinking of it in the proper proportions, but it seemed a coherent thought at the time. 141.165.171.219 18:44, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I was actually thinking about something like that, though not necessarily in relation to hexes; just as a way to balance powerful skills, in general. For example, you use Immolate and have -4 Fire Magic ( seconds) .  Cuts out spammy bullshit.  Could also be applied to things like Wearying Spear/Wearying Strike instead of weakness, and assassin dual attacks (END OF COMBO, BITCHES).
 * One thing, though, with the hex stacking mechanic: if it only applies when several hexes of the same attribute are on a target, it would do very little against hexways. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  19:11, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No, no, I was thinking if you have "more than one purple arrow" on you, the Attribute value of those hexes on you would begin to degrade, on a scaling system analogous to your own but increasing with the size of the stack. 141.165.171.219 19:14, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

As with any Big Update
Please please make sure that the monsters that use these skills arent now too over powered in NM/HM (like the New shining blade content What about vanquisher title? Alot harder much?) (and this has probably been covered) But Some of the recent skill changed have made some areas in PvE in HM that where just about bareable extremely more difficult than missions further along on the story line. Please if skills are gonig to be changed. Fix monster bars -- Nataliexxx 01:54, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Hard mode? Hard?  HERESY!  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  02:13, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know how going from pitifully weak to a little bit of effort to kill is that big of a difference. Cuilan 04:58, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It's alright, Natalie. If you'd like to scroll up, I think this has been addressed several times over (just above us, for instance). 141.165.171.12 05:00, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I was sure it had been.. but effort reading that rage up there? and i dont mean the effort is a problem. But some of the missions earlier in the game become harder in hm than those later in the game.. sureley thats a bit stupid :)-- Nataliexxx 11:02, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah! Inconsistency in the game's progression may prove a valid point. :) Go at it. 141.165.171.219 18:27, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It's ok, Arena Net needs all the reminders we can possibly give them. Thank you Natalie but never fear I'm sure things will be broken to hell :D  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:09, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Mesmer mobs that are already O^P or are usually part of "Zerg" spawns: Destroyer of Thoughts, Mind_Tormentor, Stone Summit in HM, Most of the Tengu in Prophecies, Jotun, Heket Tlamatini, Mindblade Spectre, & most obvious of all, The Four Horsemen ...If Anet is really serious about balancing this crap then they'll remove some of their Physical Armor and total HitPoint bonuses that all Caster mobs have in Hardmode b/c they totally overshadow their melee counterparts and discourage balance-way. -- ilr  23:02, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Most of those aren't very strong at all even in hard mode with the exception of Mindblades. I guess Anet will have to cancel or tone down the mesmer/dervish/paragon updates and go back to buffing physicals, ritualists, and necromancers. Cuilan 01:09, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Aside from Hammers, Physicals weren't buffed at all in PvE. Infact if you look purely at rangers over the last 3 years, they were weakened on average.  SpiritSpammers & Necros though?  Have at 'em... -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 03:52, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I haven't observed any extra armor bonuses in HM, other than what would be expected for a higher level creature. Nor extra increases in Health, although I haven't done as much of that. <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Jupiter.jpg|19px]] 04:07, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Was thinking like in factions. The hammer warriors and RoJ when it was changed to jesus beam. And the ritualists. Some of the earlier missions are harder than Raisu Palace etc.. Seems a bit silly to me-- Nataliexxx 13:49, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

yall mad
↑ –Jette 07:16, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * :> 141.165.171.219 18:40, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The only things that made me anywhere close to mad on this page so far was your friend Princess Jasmine and the Deep picture with three people. But yeah you're fairly correct Jette.  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:07, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

you guys
Anet was nice enough to divert some people from developing GW2 to keep Guild Wars up to date> You should be grateful instead of the whining bunch of bitches you'll currently are. Does Chewbacca living on Endor help clarify that? -- <font color="#ef8f50">R <font color="#916142">i <font color="#333333">ddle 04:18, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That's like saying the government was nice enough to divert some money to Goldman Sachs. -- <font color="#ef8f50">R <font color="#916142">i <font color="#333333">ddle 17:41, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * that made no effing sense what-so-ever. And believe me, I watch CNBC all the time b/c I'm obsessed with linking every financial scandal ever with the current wallstreet Meta.  Cool story Bro ...but I just don't see it :( -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 19:50, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The "be nice to Arenanet" arguement, I haven't seen that in a while. 203.173.144.150 23:11, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You haven't? [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 03:58, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You probably would too if they made you an NPC -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 04:01, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I do think people are getting too overworked about this. One of the devs posted on Guru that they were aware the preview skills are overpowered. During the NF preview event a lot of skills were more powerful than they were when the game was released. During the last skill preview several skills were toned down from what they originally were. I think that's just how they tend to do these things. <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Jupiter.jpg|19px]] 04:11, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * To be fair to those complaining, it's hard to know much about that since the info isn't the wiki, or this blog ANet is so proud of having gotten up, or for that matter any source considered "official". --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 04:14, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "that made no effing sense what-so-ever."
 * I see your silly monkey and raise you a whatever-the-hell-this-was b/c I can't find the link that proves Izzy still doesn't "get it" (IoW: all this bitching won't mean POOP in another 6 months) -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 06:31, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That podcast was my first (meh), and it was crap. Talking about Mountain Dew (which I've never had, it seems I can only buy it online in the UK, and it probably isn't worth it) for what, 10+ minutes?  Anyway; this was the first time that I heard warriors will be in GW2, and that more info will be released soon.  I kinda figured that out.  -- smøni  19:14, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Thx for all, but one...
Speaking as a pure mesmer, I thank you Anet for buffing us. However I cannot understand "Empathy – reduces damage dealt in addition to dealing damage when a foe attacks". Does this mean that the buff for this is going to be less damage dealt per hit? Empathy is the crux of, let's say, 90% of my mesmer builds... it's ideal against melee and also spellcasters who like to wand a lot, whether they hit you or not. I'd say if the idea is to reduce damage dealt, it would be better to ignore this skill. --  Pixy | Talk 19:02, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I take the description to mean that Empathy would decrease the damage of an enemy's attacks and still provide the damage to that enemy upon attacking. Whether they're changing any of the spell's numbers has yet to been seen though. --Oiseau 19:05, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * As a pure warrior who had often just soaked the damage and still pummeled on the mesmer I can say that this would definatly make me annoyed :) 192.203.160.241 19:06, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh it's like that... hmmm might be a bit overpowered lol, unless a rebalance of the damage is done. Obviously this will penalise using this skill on spellcasters (unless it also reduces damage dealt from their spells =D ). --  Pixy | Talk User_pixy_hand.png 19:15, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Many people have generally agreed that this Mesmer update lies on the extreme side. :) --Oiseau 19:25, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * And the squeeky wheels always get the oil. I like the update. I think its very well thought out. But the bitchers always ruin it.  --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] 19:39, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * On another page there was a summary of descriptions...
 * "Empathy - hexed foe does X less damage"

makes me think otherwise. :) Scroll down a bit more. --Oiseau 20:20, 4 May 2010 (UTC) --24.197.253.243 20:27, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * ...leading me to believe that Anet is removing the damage from empathy
 * which leads me to believe that the world is a crazy place. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:13, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "reduces damage dealt in addition to dealing damage when a foe attacks"
 * Or read the first line of the mentioned summary: "These effects were pretty much all in addition to the current functionality of the skills, i.e. Empathy still does damage on attack, etc:"
 * I'd call this change a Nerf b/c everything I ever use Empathy on, I'm usually stacking Pain Inverter on top of. Less damage from that foe means a less effective PainInvert for top-end Mesmers. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 23:47, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That's a pretty niche nerf. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 23:51, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Like hell it is, any mesmer who doesn't slap Empathy+Inverter on Shiro/100b-Wars/Barragers shouldn't be playing this game -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 00:02, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * On Shiro or a barrager, sure. On a 100b warrior it's no more effective than on any other warrior. Not a large number of enemies use barrage, and only one enemy is Shiro. Niche. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 00:08, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the player, by and large, will better appreciate party support over an advantageous pairing with PI. --<font face="Cursive"> Oiseau 00:18, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Any mesmer nerf is a niche nerf. Cuilan 00:26, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * B/c the class itself was always a pre-nerfed niche, irony? -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 01:56, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not a nerf, even with PI. Dealing less damage is always win. If it bothers you so much, tab+space and spread hexes like you should always do in PvE so they actually have time to effect something. -~=Ϛρѧякγ  User Sparky, the Tainted charr sig.PNG  (τѧιк)  02:17, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Has anyone noticed
that elementalists are now the weakest nuking caster in the game? Monks have jesus beam, necros have always had good damage with spiteful and minion bombing and then they got necrosis, and mesmers have always had decent (aoe) damage with clusminess + wandering eye but now it's being spread to more and more skills. All of those are armor ignoring, but the class that is supposed to be about dropping nukes has all their damage mitigated by hard mode. This is also ignoring the fact that ANet is taking the pussy route out of balancing - instead of making mesmers good at what mesmers are supposed to be doing, they're just giving them big damage skills. Anyone who applauds this update isn't thinking about game balance or even the design of the mesmer profession, you're just supporting ANet being lazy and giving every class vanilla damage skills. Grats on making GW unique and varied like every other MMO ever made. - Auron 02:32, 5 May 2010 (UTC) That's the second person on this page who seems to have the mistaken impression that HM enemies get some sort of super armor buffs. I haven't seen anything that gains more armor than 3*extra levels, which is about 12 generally. <font color="#008800">Manifold  03:48, 5 May 2010 (UTC) There are 18 skills in this preview. 8 mention increased damage (degen is "Mesmery" so I'm not counting Phantom Pain). Not even the majority of these changes are increased damage. <font color="#008800">Manifold  03:58, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm assuming most people haven't read it, and are just here for the lulz. It's why I'm here, anyway.  –Jette 02:46, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Tbh, hard mode monsters should have, at most, only slightly more armor than normal. Then they need to play mildly intelligently. -~=Ϛρѧякγ  User Sparky, the Tainted charr sig.PNG  (τѧιк)  02:51, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah pretty epic, I'm sure he'll get someone with it -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 03:02, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Dont worry GW2 will have jumping and elementalists. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 03:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Char RAWKIT LAWNCHAIR > Jumping Eles -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 23:18, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I think people still use Shitterflames as a caster-spike build in the Domain of Anguish and such places. Surely they aren't nonviable. --<font size="3" face="Joan"> Oiseau | User_Oiseau_Melandru.jpg 03:27, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Monk's RoJ may be armor ignoring, but it doesn't make up for the rest of the bar being really low damage (and causes scatter in HM) unless you maintain a single SoH or so. Mesmers still cast a lot of inbetween skills, their skills may not even go off, and they can be removed. That sounds pretty fair to me. Besides, ele damage has a lot more AoE options to pick from and their d--77.117.178.14 21:48, 7 May 2010 (UTC)amage is much more constant despite not being armor ignoring. I run an Wandering Eye build, it's annoying when they die too soon or if it's a caster spamming spells instead of attacking. These are skills that already existed, they're just being adapted for PvE. If you want to point imbalance, take a look at ritualists, physicals, and necromancers. Cuilan 03:42, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "Tbh, hard mode monsters should have, at most, only slightly more armor than normal."
 * The level increase itself also decreases damage; people are probably mistaking that for armor increase. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  03:52, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The decreased damage from increased level is an armor increase. I could be wrong here, but I believe monsters get 3 armor per level (plus whatever ANet decides to give them for weird reasons).  –Jette 03:55, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Higher-level caster's spells do more damage (you'd do more damage at level 28 than 20), casting against a higher level does not reduce damage (if a level 28 and level 20 target have the same armor, you'll do the same damage).
 * "instead of making mesmers good at what mesmers are supposed to be doing, they're just giving them big damage skills"
 * Yet, AoE interrupting Hexes and AoE interrupt-KD is an spectacular amount of pew-pew for the so-envisioned "subtle saboteurs" that Mesmers were, by design, to be. --<font size="3" face="Joan"> Oiseau | User_Oiseau_Melandru.jpg 04:02, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: he didn't say "most of these mesmer changes were big damages." -- <font color="#ef8f50">R <font color="#916142">i <font color="#333333">ddle 04:06, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I also count 8 of the 18 skills given to us to preview that either mention increased damage, damage range increase (i.e. from single target to AoE or the like) or are damage/kill-utility skills which are to be made more viable. Just under half. --<font size="3" face="Joan"> Oiseau | User_Oiseau_Melandru.jpg 04:12, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It's relevant to the "Mesmers shouldn't do a lot of damage" point that has been raised here. There are quite a few "more Mesmery-ness" skills, but I am not seeing a proportionate number of comments about those. <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Jupiter.jpg|19px]] 04:13, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * last i checked, you don't get to take 18 skills with you, only 8. having even a single bar full of ridiculously powerful armor ignoring, aoe damage skills that are cheap and spammable defeats the point of the mesmer profession, because that's all anyone will ever run in pve. note; this is partly a flaw in the design of pve hardmode (i.e., throwing 500 mobs at you and making them all cast twice as fast, so interrupting or shutting down a single one has a negligible effect on top of requiring a lot of effort), and partly a flaw in anet's attempt at making mesmers more useful by giving them big damage skills.
 * also, who cares about how many skills have damage? remember cry of pain? yeah, that was 1 skill, not 8, and it managed to rape more face than anything since ursan. mesmers can echo and arcane echo skills if they're powerful enough, so it's not even necessary to give them 8 powerful skills, just 2 or 3. the point is they shouldn't have any, let alone enough to do an elementalist's job better than an elementalist. - Auron 04:30, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Cry of Pain was an elementalist and necromancer skill pre-nerf. You keep saying mesmers will be better nukers, but you don't seem to understand a lot about how mesmer skills work. Even after this update they'll still have to deal with timing things, horrible energy management that hasn't yet been addressed in this update(?), risk, and inbetween skills that may not do damage. Cuilan 05:34, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * So you mean to say that Mesmers playing these skills will need to be conscious while employing them? Well, that's really a relief, for a moment, I was worried that they'd become too "fire-and-forget" a class. Except, that's not entirely true either. If interrupts like this become as overpowered as this preview suggests, why not take a Hero (albeit microing every step of the way) to seize the advantage of the computers', split-second timing and do away with the margin of skill? --<font size="3" face="Joan"> Oiseau | User_Oiseau_Melandru.jpg 05:57, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Firstly, in pretty much every organized DoA group for months, there were two mesmers and two eles. The eles were simply chosen for energy management, but the mesmers were there for their hexes.
 * Secondly, mesmers right now are on par with (if not slightly above) elementalist damage in hard mode. I use clumsiness and wandering eye on recharge and it never fails to trigger (even on casters), doing hundreds upon hundreds of damage per cast. I just use lyssa's aura to keep energy up and spam them all day long. This isn't even theorycrafting - I play this build and it works. Adding all these skills like they say they're going to do is going to tip the balance in favor of the mesmer. You don't seem to understand that the point of PvE in Guild Wars is to kill lots of things quickly, so all mesmers are going to do is take a bar full of damage skills and spam them on recharge. That doesn't take skill. That doesn't take effort. All the damage is AoE and armor ignoring. Yeah, they have a "target must attack" requirement, but like I said, it's still a 100% chance that it'll proc. Adding more and more aoe armor ignoring damage to a profession that is supposed to revolve around shutdown is not helping the mesmer profession at all, it is turning it into Generic Caster Class #3.
 * Their idea for Panic is excellent. It's a bit on the RNG side, but it's more of what Mesmers need to have. If they cranked out 18 skills with the shutdown power of Panic, I would be excited. Unfortunately, Panic is never going to see the light of day on my bar, because it is not as useful as Lyssa's with 5 damage hexes that make the mobs cease to exist. They can have the coolest shutdown skills in the game, but they will never see serious use in high-end PvE because high-end PvE has one goal - killing everything as quickly as humanly possible to get to the chest at the end. That's why ursan existed, that's why shadow form was abused, and that's why speed clears are so popular. People just want the loot at the end, so anything that doesn't help you get there quickly will be ignored. - Auron 06:13, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Stolen Speed+Shatter Delusions+tab over and over will destroy any nuking an ele could every do.Bring arcane echo or something if the recharge on shatter is still too long. 98.248.90.248 06:15, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The thing is, even BEFORE this update, mesmers make better nukers than eles. They are INTENTIONALLY making the mesmer a viable replacement of the ele because, as it stands currently, mesmers are using ele nuker builds better than eles, because of the fast casting attribute.  Eles have already been replaced by mesmers because mesmers can do almost as much damage with less casting time.  So to fix this, Anet is giving mesmers some aoe skills so that the mesmer's own skills become more appealing to the profession.  If you're concerned about eles losing their role, this update will actually redifine the eles role as the main nuker.  When you make the mesmer skills more likeable by mesmers they will be more inclined to create builds that contain mesmer skills, and while some of them may be aoe skills, they will also be more inclined to bring more skills specific to its original role.  --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] 16:09, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * But by that line of logic, Eles will start to use Mesmer skills too. And I do think that's likely. It's no more favorable than the current position of balance, in my opinion. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 16:39, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Mesmers aren't above eles in anyway when it comes to nuking because you'll either have low damage, awful recharge, and/or poor energy for general PvE play. Making up statistics won't help and just because a certain skill like VoR activates doesn't mean it's doing much. I don't see any mesmers in any speed clear builds and they're easily replaced by an elemetalist or other if there was one. Cuilan 18:49, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * ITT: bad PvE design showcased. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  19:00, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Successful Sysop was Successful -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 23:18, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

"That's the second person on this page who seems to have the mistaken impression that HM enemies get some sort of super armor buffs. I haven't seen anything that gains more armor than 3*extra levels, which is about 12 generally."

When dealing armor-reduced damage only, the 12 armor DO matter. 1 - 0.5^(12/40) = 0.187, which means that 12 armor reduce the damage by almost 20%. An ele needs Ural's broken hammer to deal NORMAL damage (which is still reduced) again. Any other class would deal nearly normal damage in HM WITHOUT any PvE skills (monks, mesmers and nekro deal armor-ignoring damage by default [some nekro spells deal cold damage which is reduced]; physicals get only their base weapon damage reduced, the bonus from skills is armor-ignoring; the rits' direct dmg spells are reduced by armor, but they have glaive [and eles their air spells] and SoS). Because eles have the most damage spells with the greatest numbers in the skill description, it does not mean that they are the best nukers. Quality >> Quantity --77.117.178.14 21:48, 7 May 2010 (UTC) AWESOME! "and that'd probably just about do it without making HM elementalists any more insane." And the mesmer changes are less insane? The energy management of paras and necros is less insane? Physicals are less insane? At times, when "insane" is the new "balanced" there's nothing wrong with it... When I think about that again, I'd actually prefer less insane classes in general... (but armor-penetrating Intensity would still be awesome) --77.117.83.188 09:41, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I vanquished Silent Surf recently with an air elementalist, and was actually quite impressed with the damage numbers I was getting - when casting from inside a standard, Chain Lightning was doing over a hundred damage against most targets and my others were generally in the 50 range (disclaimer: I was using a superior rune and an attribute boost from a fortune). Not too shabby, since I was providing party support as well and generally didn't need to do anything special to keep my energy reserves going (air attunement and shock arrow did the trick).
 * Comparing the Elementalist to the Mesmer, it's probably reasonable for the Elementalist to be a little less effective against high-armour foes in ideal circumstances at the cost of being a little less finicky - an Elementalist spell cast to do damage always will (unless interrupted or protted against) while even the predictable AI will dodge a Mesmer damage hex occasionally, especially if that hex is applied mindlessly (Clumsiness, for instance, might wear off if applied when the target is chasing a kiting ally or yet to engage, and sometimes spellcasting enemies do manage to keep casting spells instead of autoattacking for the 4 seconds the hex lasts). Personally, I've generally considered Elementalists in hardmode to be more about support than big damage, but I'd say they're generally better at shutting down physicals than Mesmers, and are easier to buff (Mesmers get no benefit from standards, for instance). They'll overlap, but they always have, and the differences are such that I think after the update there will still be some situations and party builds where you want one or the other.
 * Certainly, the Elementalist could do with SOME help, but it probably doesn't need to be all that much - I've seen proposals to turn Intensity into an armour penetration enchantment, and that'd probably just about do it without making HM elementalists any more insane. Draxynnic 14:39, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "I've seen proposals to turn Intensity into an armour penetration enchantment"
 * I should clarify: I've seen proposals by players to make that change to Intensity. And what I was referring to by "more insane" is what comes at the players from the monsters. The (Live Team) proposed changes to Mesmer would make monster Mesmers more dangerous, yes, but most of those skills still allow the damage to be avoided by an observant player and being armour-ignoring is actually good for the PCs. Elementalist mobs, on the other hand, are already often capable of wiping any party member that isn't pre-protted with a Prot Spirit effect within a couple of seconds. Some Elementalist bosses can do that on their own. Draxynnic 23:40, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I guess I just don't understand.
I just stumbled upon this page. I really don't delve too deep into the wiki anymore, but with the War in Kryta + Guild Wars 2 (which I admit I'm pretty excited about), I've been tooling around more than usual. I have to say, it's pretty amazing that all this was written in less than two weeks. There's something I really don't understand though, and never really have understood. (By the way, it's a good time to mention here that I'm not trying to be sarcastic or patronizing with anything I'm about to say.)

What I don't understand, is why people seem to seek personal validation from an online video game. A lot of people who oppose these changes seem to want, from their game-play experience, a sensation of "I am a skillful player who is able to overcome challenges more easily than other players". A corresponding attitude would seem to be "my gameplay experience is lessened when the tools I use to do what I do are increased in power, because it allows me (and others) to do it more easily". But why does that seem to matter so much to some people?

I earned Legendary Vanquisher with henches (the old henches), without consumables, and (for Prophecies, at least) without PvE skills. However, I don't really regard it as an "accomplishment". I'm happy that I was able to do it, and (on the whole) I had fun doing it, but it was mostly just me being really stubborn, rather than some need to prove myself to myself. What I did isn't some rarefied thing to be proud of, either. Lots of other players have done it, I'm sure. (I hope they had fun doing it too.) But my views of myself as a player are not dependent on my capacity to overcome an adversity which was always artificially imposed. Artificially imposed rules are, after all, the defining essence of any game.

Personally, I think these changes will make Mesmers more fun to play in PvE. Yes, it will definitely make PvE "easier". For some people, I understand that that means less fun, and I have sympathy for their loss of enjoyment. Still, I don't really understand why they were looking to "prove themselves" in a game like this to begin with. Video games in general aren't something I would recommend for that purpose, let alone MMOs. These things are pastimes, not tools for personal fulfillment. Or maybe I'm just missing the point? Sorry if I've offended anyone. Arshay Duskbrow 05:07, 5 May 2010 (UTC) I do not think Yasmin overstepped that right in her section. I prefaced by stating that my answer would be self-serving, Sven, so I grant your point, in a general sense, in that alternatives were implicit. --<font size="3" face="Joan"> Oiseau | 17:05, 5 May 2010 (UTC) - Oh no, your accomplishments in a video game. :( And how many groups do you think will take a person using the latter in Hard Mode when faceroll is an option? They'll demand faceroll, and if you don't run faceroll you're going to get kicked. --Kyoshi (Talk) 20:15, 5 May 2010 (UTC) The problem is that facerolling should change. Bring things down instead of pumping things up, and you'll have fixed a lot of the problems with PvE. And if your friends don't want the challenge? You say everyone should be able to play the style that they want, but this is only going to restrict play further, because people who want a challenge won't be able to find groups. This update is only leaning balance towards facerolling, and to even bring up the argument that everyone should be able to play how they want to justify it is hypocrisy. Playing the game how you want seems to be understated here too! How interesting. --Kyoshi (Talk) 20:54, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Killing a crowd of 20 gooks with a MOAB grenade launcher is fun the first 2-3 times. After that it's not really enjoyable.  –Jette 05:23, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe this answer serves my purposes too well, but the "validation-seeking" comes as a product of gaming being a culture - and a significant, growing and very immediate one at that. Not only that, but this game is immersive and compelling in certain ways that encourage achievement; this ambition creates community and the consequences propagate from there on out. When the value of this ambition is threatened by the potential devaluing of its tools (e.g. our characters and their classes) people feel threatened, which explains the largest topic on this page, Yasmin's.
 * I won't delve too much into this though, because I'll begin rambling eventually, but I hope I've lent some insight. :) --<font size="3" face="Joan"> Oiseau | User_Oiseau_Melandru.jpg 05:24, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Either that or some people are just bratty and need the world to know they exist. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 14:41, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Especially trolls with pretty butterflies in their signature.-- *Yasmin Parvaneh* [[Image:User_yasmin_parvaneh_sig.png]] 16:58, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * As stated just in the section below, "It's a feedback page. Opinions are meant to be posted here. Opinions will be posted here."
 * What Alice said. Also, I agree with Arshay.  It seems these game over-achievers feel obligated to force their playstyle onto the rest of us.  If I want to use a consumable, let me use a consumable.  If I want to play Ursanway, let me play Ursanway.  If Anet wants to improve gameplay for some people by buffing a few skills, let them.  And if you want more of a challenge, then just go to the DoA with nothing but Frenzy and Healing Signet.  Just stop your bitching and stop ruining the game for the rest of us!  --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] 17:22, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I am not an over-achiever, and neither is Yasmin. We want some kind of challenge in this game, is that strange? Is it really weird when someone plays a game to have fun instead of mindless grinding? Are we falling out of line when we win in combat because we are good at the game, instead of using overpowered shit and own everything without having a challenge? I used to think not, but lately I am beginning to question that.  Koda  [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_UT.jpeg‎|19px]]  Kumi  17:43, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Anything that takes time or effort to get has value proportional to said time or effort. Including things in a video game.  In fact, regardless of the amount of "triviality", anything that takes effort to accomplish or obtain has value.
 * If you want a real-world example, look at diamonds. They don't do anything useful (not in the hands of most consumers, at any rate).  They don't even have to be particularly showy (diamonds in watch faces, for example).  But their owners value them because of the amount of effort (in most cases, saving up) that they had to put toward obtaining them.
 * In fact, look at money itself, or even the gold that "backs" it, for that matter: they are, essentially, nothing more than finite measures of effort.
 * If you'll recall, people who used to buy obsidian armor early on put a huge amount of effort into it, so it had huge value to them. When the price of ecto dropped to 2.7k, these people were unhappy because it was basically the game saying "fuck you guys".  Obsidian armor no longer required the time or effort that they put into it, so they felt (and justifiably so) that their accomplishments were being devalued.
 * You'd probably feel similar if colleges decided that they were going to allow students to take an "easy bachelor's degree program" that allowed them to complete the courses with half the amount of work. Or if everyone else at work received a raise.
 * In my case, every time the difficulty level of something drops, I feel (and justifiably so) that it's devaluing my accomplishments. "Yeah, I won halls" "lol anyone can win halls just run seeping wound".
 * Ideally, for me, PvE would be balanced, too. People who put less effort into something (speedclears, anyone?) are given the same rewards as everyone else.  Devaluing them.  Every time a skill is buffed to stupidly strong levels, everything in the game becomes easier to achieve.  Devalued.  Whenever cons are used.  Tank N' Spank.  Discord.  Every mindless, faceroll build or tactic.  It's basically that same "fuck you" to everyone who didn't do it that way.
 * Before you ask "well why not just run Seeping Wound and win halls lotz" or "why not just run manlyspike and win PvE lotz", it's because it's not fun. The rewards do have value, but it is still a game; we should be playing for some level of entertainment.  I personally don't find 1723456 a fun way to play.  Nor do I find blowing everything up while someone tanks all the worthless AI a fun way to play.  I like challenge, and, frankly, the game's moving further and further away from that with every ill-thought-out buff.  It's moving further and further away from fun.
 * The things that we valued have become meaningless; the things that were fun cease to be. I think that's reason enough to be discontent.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  18:22, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * @ Koda. No, no, no, you are NOT falling out of line. By all means play a challenging game, but demanding the same of others IS out of line. Every player is within their own right to play the game the way they want to play with what Anet has provided.  People had no right to demand a nerf of Ursan or Shadowform (though I personally do support those nerfs) and they currently have no right to demean those who are in support of consets or the proposed Mesmer skill changes.  There's just a certain "class" of player that will bitch and moan until they get their way even though a majority of the player base would disagree with those players.  Yet, they're the ones that get appeased simply because the rest of us just don't see fit to impose our wills on others and try to shape the world to our view of what the world should be.  --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] 18:27, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Raine, ily. :> @Musha: I read on the inside flap of the box I bought Guild Wars in that Guild Wars was designed as a skill-based game. And waaaay back when, that could have been said of Guild Wars. In a lot of respects, that statement is laughably inaccurate of the current state of the game, but that advertised standard which many gravitated to does support those of us working towards this paradigm. To me, it seems you picked up the wrong expectations as a result of updates, in large part to PvE, which progressively degraded the standard to which a player needed to hold themselves to in order to find themselves successful, which you can't be blamed for. The same courtesy should be extended to the purpose of those seeking a skill-based structure though. :) --<font size="3" face="Joan"> Oiseau | User_Oiseau_Melandru.jpg 18:47, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "I feel (and justifiably so) that it's devaluing my accomplishments."
 * Makes it sound like PvE ever was srs bzns. You're not 1337-skillz if you run mesmer in PvE, you're a burden. Anet fixes this after 5 years, and all the loudmouthed self-proclaimed pros who no longer plays has to make these nonsencial rants... It's not like this makes PvE more of a faceroll, it just gives you the option, you can still run Diversion and Arcane Echo PB. --<font color="DarkSlateGray">Anorith [[Image:User Anorith Grenths Grasp.jpg|19px]]<font color="DarkKhaki"> Talk 19:48, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "It's not like this makes PvE more of a faceroll, it just gives you the option, you can still run Diversion and Arcane Echo PB."
 * That's what I'm arguing, mesmers gets kicked because facerolling is an option. Facerolling won't change at this point, giving mesmers the option to join in, instead of rolling something else, won't hurt anything at all. Selfproclaimed 1337-pros can still play useless shit with friends if they want a challenge. People crying about their accomplishments should get a life. --<font color="DarkSlateGray">Anorith [[Image:User Anorith Grenths Grasp.jpg|19px]]<font color="DarkKhaki"> Talk 20:44, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Excuse me princess jasmine are you trying to convince us that you're not an attention seeking brat? Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:18, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * A'ight, a'ight, calm down. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 20:22, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm perfectly calm. If she can't handle flak when she posts her "i'm better than everyone" opinions about a game that she supposedly has quit and shouldn't be bothered with anymore than she ought to stop posting her opinions.  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:30, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying I don't agree with you. I'm saying you shouldn't insult her. It doesn't accomplish anything (except potentially getting you blocked) and it starts a digression from the topic at hand. As far as the blocking, if you want to take the risk that's your problem, but let's try to keep this page from getting too much further off track. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 20:35, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * How in the world will this update not make PvE more of a faceroll? This is only a portion of the update and half of the preview alone cites increased damage in Mesmer skills and a number which will become AoE? That sounds like buffing Casterspike to me, which I consider a form of PvE facerollery. Excuse me. I re-read and realized you do not in fact oppose the concept of SCs. So, I'll merely refer you back to Jette's reply and leave my comment at that. --<font size="3" face="Joan"> Oiseau | User_Oiseau_Melandru.jpg 20:47, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * x2 @Anorith: "Facerolling won't change at this point, giving mesmers the option to join in, instead of rolling something else, won't hurt anything at all."
 * "Selfproclaimed 1337-pros can still play useless shit with friends if they want a challenge."
 * "People crying about their accomplishments should get a life."
 * "You say everyone should be able to play the style that they want"


 * "to even bring up the argument that everyone should be able to play how they want to justify it is hypocrisy."

Not different, just equal and opposite. One side gets more "freedom" to play their way, at the expense of those who want some semblance of skilled play. While buffing and nerfing it won't fix it in its entirety, it will help. In theory, yes, but AI usually doesn't process skill combos correctly. People will still prefer players over heroes, especially because of the change in drop rates with heroes and henchmen in play. If you're talking about heroes and henchmen, again, they don't play correctly. They can't cancel Frenzy, they can't use maintained enchantments right without excessive amounts of micromanagement, they can't nuke the right targets, they can't cancel casting AoE on a nearly dead solo target...without micromanaging. And making heroes and henchmen more effective than playing with players takes the MMO out of the RPG. --Kyoshi (Talk) 21:35, 5 May 2010 (UTC) doesn't really easy my conscience on this update. --<font size="3" face="Joan"> Oiseau | 22:09, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * What is this about? Where in my posts did I write that? you deserve getting called out on your bullshit, really.
 * You're trying way too hard to find small shit to whine about. I shouldn't have to explain facts to a wall, no? It's obvious that you're not in the majority, and that it's way too late for anet to back down on the facerolling. Anet can't please everyone, they please the majority with this update, of course some people will always whine. --<font color="DarkSlateGray">Anorith [[Image:User Anorith Grenths Grasp.jpg|19px]]<font color="DarkKhaki"> Talk 21:26, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * @Oiseau- This game has never stopped being a skill-based game. There are literally HUNDREDS of skills to choose from.  Sure there are extras in the game that make the game easier, but you've NEVER been required to use them.  If you want to play a skill-based game, then play a skill-based game.  If somebody else wants to cheat themselves out of actually playing one of the best games around by running the same ridiculous Shadow Form build everywhere they go, then let them.  Nobody has any right to change the way other people play the game.  Unfortunately, that's exactly what the complainers are doing: stealing the right that others have to play the game that Anet has provided the way they want to play it.  --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] 20:56, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * As for the fact that the game is going the other way, that groups become so dependent on gimmick builds, consets, etc that they start to require them also limits the way people can play is a different issue. But unbuffing or nerfing skills is not the way to fix it.  Changing the areas' mobs seems a viable option, as does allowing PvE skills on heroes.  Something I've been arguing for a long time.  If you give PvE skills to heroes, then all the gimmick build runners will go off on their own with their heroes and stop requiring it from the rest of us.  Also, if you get kicked from a group because you don't conform to the group's facerolling, then you still have powerful allies to venture with and don't have to suffer because of their gimmick's.  --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] 21:06, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * @Musha:
 * No, that's a skills based game. Guild Wars was at one time built on the premise that skill should matter more than skills.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  21:15, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * @Anorith:
 * I think you missed the very first thing I wrote there (that's the premise of the argument, so it's kind of important!). Or maybe you just didn't get it.  If it's the former, I'm sure you'll take it upon yourself to re-read that so you don't sound like you're taking shots in the dark (I'm sure no one likes looking ignorant), but in case it's the latter, I'll give you a better example.
 * I'm going to tell you a story.
 * Once upon a time, Clyde bought his girlfriend, Bonnie, a puppy. Because Bonnie spent all of her money on her tuition, Clyde paid for all of the expenses related to the puppy.
 * This continued for two years.
 * Then Bonnie broke up with Clyde. He allowed her to keep the puppy, because he's not really a dick, but he did stop paying the expenses.  Within a weak, the puppy got terribly sick.  Bonnie couldn't afford to take the puppy to a vet; all she could do was hope for the best.
 * Unfortunately, the best didn't happen. Her puppy died in the night and, upon discovering this in the morning, Bonnie was unhappy.
 * Now, did Bonnie expend any tangible resources in the puppy's care? No; Clyde covered the expenses.
 * So would you sarcastically say to Bonnie, "oh no your puppy :("? Of course you wouldn't.
 * Why? Because you understand that Bonnie put effort into that relationship, and that it had value to her because of that.
 * lol r u butthurt still? [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  21:55, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * lol we all know who's butthurt about this update. lmao --<font color="DarkSlateGray">Anorith [[Image:User Anorith Grenths Grasp.jpg|19px]]<font color="DarkKhaki"> Talk 22:01, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you're still butthurt over our conversation higher up on the page. Rest assured, it's nothing personal; you were just wrong.  I'd've said the same things to anyone else who was being wrong like you were.  I have nothing against you, so just let it go.
 * Until then, I'm just going to dismiss anything you say as trolling because I clearly explained my stance and you've not even tried to take my argument apart; I originally attributed it to a lack of comprehension, but in retrospect, it was really written quite clearly and at length. Therefore, I'm now of the opinion that you intentionally disregarded it to troll me.
 * As such, I will respond appropriately: by mostly ignoring anything you say that's not directly relevant and/or with obligatory "umads". Thanks for understanding. ♥  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  22:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * more baaawww from you? Did I hurt your feelings when I lol'd at you whining about how your accomplishments in a video game means so much to you? --<font color="DarkSlateGray">Anorith [[Image:User Anorith Grenths Grasp.jpg|19px]]<font color="DarkKhaki"> Talk 22:39, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "As for the fact that the game is going the other way, that groups become so dependent on gimmick builds, consets, etc that they start to require them also limits the way people can play is a different issue."
 * "As for the fact that the game is going the other way, that groups become so dependent on gimmick builds, consets, etc that they start to require them also limits the way people can play is a different issue."
 * "If you give PvE skills to heroes, then all the gimmick build runners will go off on their own"
 * "Also, if you get kicked from a group because you don't conform to the group's facerolling, then you still have powerful allies to venture with and don't have to suffer because of their gimmick's."
 * Ms. Valen put it succinctly yet again. We do not have a plethora of skills to choose from when there's a vast margin of effectiveness between those in the meta and those that do not see play. So, "Well, Oiseau, there's still Build Wars!"

Is wiki a forum now?
No, seriously. I'm trying to look for information discussing the clarity of such listed skills, and all I keep reading is section after section of useless crap about people moaning or supporting the upcoming skill update. People are actually writing god-awful lengths of trife about how much of an impact the upcoming and unreleased update will have....goodness, the first section is about Dervish love!! Come on guys, that's what the forums are for. This entire talk page reads like a dog race for people with big sentences and a dedication to trolling to get their point across (like you don't see that with every major update.)

Could we please keep the info to a good level of relevance and drain out... what I can only describe as Mesmer politics...? There are a lot of passionate people out there, but the wiki is simply not tailored for that. I want to come here looking for information, not to say farewell to strangers who are adamant about leaving the game. (Xu Davella 15:39, 5 May 2010 (UTC))
 * You think this is bad? (also, a lot of the comments on this page and the link reflect your attitude) --<font size="3" face="Joan"> Oiseau | User_Oiseau_Melandru.jpg 16:46, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm personally insulted that I didn't make that list -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 23:10, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It's a feedback page. Opinions are meant to be posted here. Opinions will be posted here. Whether it's what you want to be reading isn't necessarily the concern of anyone here. If you want to discuss something, you should probably start a topic about it instead of complaining about how you want something to be discussed.
 * Anyway, I don't know what you mean by the "clarity" of the skills. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 16:48, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * This is a discussion page, not an information article. And look what you've done, instead of starting a discussion in an attempt to get information, you started another topic of bullshit.  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:27, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't come here and bitch just because no one's breaking the NDA by revealing the the exact skill details you want. No Seriously, You should have signed up for the Test Krewe if that's your only concern. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 23:10, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Wiki's always been a forum. –Jette 23:11, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * de facto --<font size="3" face="Joan"> Oiseau | User_Oiseau_Melandru.jpg 23:13, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It would be kindof nice if someone leaked info, though Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 02:16, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * info does get leaked. you must not be with the right people at the right time at the right place. Vili &#x70B9; [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 04:14, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Hint: the information is boring. I quit for a reason.  –Jette 05:49, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * @Kyoshi. Mesmers are supposed to be the profession that controls the flow of combat. Even when you look at the GW Manuscripts which reads "imaginary illnesses that drain Health and Energy from foes while healing and energizing allies", and then wonder where that line applies, because the Mesmer has no skills that heal or energize allies. When you read what they're looking at changing for Sum of All Fears....does that mean that Imagined Burden will get a similar boost? If SoAF gets a boost to say 50%, then what would the point be in boosting Burden's slow amount if 50% reduction is enough? And then you look at what they're planning to do with e-denail, a mechanic that is (and has always been) useless in PvE, and a mechanic that would still be useless even if a skill like Energy Tap stole twice as much energy as it currently does. Yet e-denial is one of the things that gives the Mesmer a strong placement in PvP. For it to become a viable mechanic in PvE, the Mesmer would need to subvert control from their enemies just as effectively as they would do in PvP. Maybe they could look at better energy degeneration skills, more creative penalties for using energy, (which both the Necro and Ranger are currently effective at), or even temporarily stealing a % of target's energy on interrupt.


 * Aside, I didn't mention anything about how this wasn't a feeback page. But if people are only going to come on here voicing an opinion that has more to do with their own personal outcries to gain attention, then the result is a whole bunch of people moaning their asses off, a whole bunch of people moaning about the moaners, and a very small number of people who are actually willing to provide some contructive feedback. Its better for everone if people look at a major update like this and think "I want to say something that will leave others thinking more critically about the update." Take a look at Yasmin's reply. It's good feedback that outlines how powerful the Mesmer is and has always been, and how grossly underapreciated and ignorantly abused this class is. And up until the mention about how this user is not going to play GW again, it constructively criticizes Anet's lack of insight into the matter. Mesmer is the only class that I really play, and I personally have almost never come across a group of people that would say "No Mesmers, boot or I leave". But then I know that this profession is flooded with a lot of skills that go unused because they're too niche or they just don't have that satisfactory oomph you get when you pwn an enemy - that's why I'm here. So, yes, this is a feedback page, but how we provide that feedback should be more constructive than saying "This update sucks, Anet sucks, trolls suck, Xu Davella is a hypocrite!!" otherwise when the update does come out and its a ball of crap, then we end up sharing responsibility for that crap becase here's Anet with their request for feedback and we're too busy trolling about completely different subjects.(Xu Davella 13:33, 6 May 2010 (UTC))
 * Just to add, the only other person worth mentioning would be Shard. At least he knows how to troll. No, seriously. (Xu Davella 13:37, 6 May 2010 (UTC))
 * If you're missing the feedback interspersed with the numerous display of butthurt, you're not looking hard enough. --<font size="3" face="Joan"> Oiseau | User_Oiseau_Melandru.jpg 17:18, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you direct me to the right people, the right place and the right time to meet them there? Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:07, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * As always, Sven, an enriching and informative reflection on the question at hand. --<font size="3" face="Joan"> Oiseau | User_Oiseau_Melandru.jpg 20:14, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * We needed enriching and informative reflection on this? Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 22:06, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No. Funny that the statement works in reverse though and that the contrasting element causes trivial digressions like this one. --<font size="3" face="Joan"> Oiseau | User_Oiseau_Melandru.jpg 22:11, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree with Xu that it's a shame that there's so little reason hidden amongst all the WTFRAEEEEGGG!!! and trolling going on here. Still, looks like a potentially very controversial update - VileLasagna 17:58, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Go ahead and try to make it to Dhuum with a balanced or "fun" team just in Normal Mode and then come back and tell us how buffing more classes in this game is "very controversial". Or try vanquishing without a single Necro/Rit in your party.  Or try making it through Shards of Orr without a single Monk... The only people who complain about high end PvE being too easy in this game are usually A) More used to PvP'ing gimmicks, or B) already running PvE gimmicks. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 22:42, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I hate PUGs and my guild's been very inactive lately, so I haven't given Dhuum a try, I know my favourite strategy as of late, fragility, will be no good, but I'll see that when I get there. As for Shards of Orr without Monks... okay, sounds like a challenge in a place I already hate, but doesn't sound at all unfeasible. And vanquishing without a single Necro/Rit... Let's see... Hayda -> Paragon, Ogden and Tahlk = Mo/Me, Myself a Me/N, Devona a Wa/N, Talon a Wa/R, Cynn E/P and Herta E/Mo... hey, guess I've passed that one already, being a hater of all those triple necro heroes builds as I am. Lemme know when fragility becomes a PvE gimmick, so I can understand how right you are - VileLasagna 23:51, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I sometimes run Fevered Dreams with Fragility whenever I join a PuG, only to get asked by the party member "can you take VoR, it's really good in this area" when the person actually meant to say "Take VoR because that's the only way you're gonna stay in this party." So its frustrating when things like that happen. When you're presented with an update like this, you've gotta think whether or not they're gonna make the Mesmer the next Discord hero, or make them into a profession that can be seen as playing more than one build. There are many people who prefer gimmicks because they're more focused on ranking highly on KoaBD than actually playing the game - this update isn't for them. This update is for that mesmer that likes running different mesmer builds, and wants a wider pool of useful skills to choose from. I don't agree with some of the current skills that have been proposed, but at least after 5 years they're seriously taking a look at the foundations of what a Mesmer is. Who knows, if they actually do good with something as derelict as e-denial, then shutdown might become vanquish-worthy.(Xu Davella 07:23, 9 May 2010 (UTC))
 * E-denial is the one thing I really want to see if they'll make work. It's a mechanic that holds some kind of morbid fascination with me, I find myself REALLY wanting to make it work but being always faced with the fact it doesn't (in PvE). I got it to work once on the rit boss in Bogroot (making him heal his buddies to complete exhaustion in seconds) but don't recall anything else really, apart from (this time truly) gimmicky stuff like visages while 55ing. More effectiveness on stuff like that that doesn't see play is good, particularly in PvE. My fear is mesmer getting too many "faceroll options", kinda like running a Searing Flames ele, where you just keep spamming that mindlessly. That's the kind of thing that you end up throwing to heroes (as is kinda Discord and minions). I think mesmers have to be difficult to play in the sense that builds are complicated and requiring forethought by the mesmer's part on what you will face and etc. If the update can provide these two, I'm all for it, my fear is that it fails in the second part. Also: VoR is overrated. Awesome in some situations, but any mesmer skill that punishes stacking hexes raises a big red flag in any half-decent mesmer's book. The thing is WE know it, but other people fail to acknowledge it hoping for "ZOMG! BIG NUMBERS!!!" - VileLasagna 12:51, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Mantra of recovery needs buff
Mantra recovery needs buff because its elite stance and 33 % faster recharge is too low for elite skill u can get better non elite skill with same effect. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 78.60.51.142 (talk).
 * No its real problem is that it's a Stance in PvE which cancels out all your other stances while not being useful enough to "deserve" a shorter duration that would make it worth combining with Dwarven Stability... -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 22:28, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If someone took MoR in PvE, they'd be casting spells, not using other stances...(Xu Davella 07:31, 9 May 2010 (UTC))
 * Mantra of Recovery should be " Your next 2..3 spells recharge instantly...( Kipras )
 * mantra + meteor shower + meteor shower + meteor shower + ... Yes MS is an awful skill, and yes it is cruel to misuse mesmers as fastcast ele nukers (why should they use ele skills at all?), but I'm afraid that this one would become some kind of meta :/ But this MoR would be OP when compared to Glyph of Renewal. Edit: Yes MoR is too weak when looking at the non-elite alternatives, but having 3 skills instantly recharced is OP --178.115.138.222 21:02, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

It's getting a buff to 50% recharge on Mesmer spells. And Fast Casting will make Mesmer skills recharge 3% faster per rank. It's been leaked all over Guru, QQ, Warhammer and other sites. The full TK notes are posted in some places. I think the TK is frustrated with this update (I know I am). We've been done testing the skills for weeks. Let's go, already. 208.100.1.46 14:02, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll personally wait and see. The way it stands today Fast Casting is an addiction, it's so good I always feel like my rit, ele and necro are kinda missing one arm or something whenever I play them (monks have lots spells that naturally have fast casting times so that one kinda gets away). I fin it good though that things like Stolen Speed are being looked at. It and, say, Symbolic Celerity, are things that would be potentially great if you did not have Fast Casting... except, you know, that's their attribute and you kinda do, and then they become mostly useless. As for Mantra of Recovery, I personally like that one, only would like it's duration to be increased a bit, although when compared to Ghostly Haste and Serpent's Quickness one does wonder if it could use a little push to justify it as a Fast Casting elite - VileLasagna 16:45, 9 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the awesome spolier, Bro... but judging by the last update, the real hold-up seems to be the fact that they got their War in Kryta content mixed up with their skills Update and it's making more work for them than they anticipated. Now back to the reason it sucks arse that this is still a Stance --->  Without being able to run other stances, there's really not much options for the Mesmer to regain Energy or Tank so unless they're walking around with a BiPer on their ass 24/7 (which won't happen in PuGs), all this faster recharge won't change do crap for their Utility or expansion of "role".  (Assn/Mez is already 10x better at farming than Mez/anything). -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 21:19, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I should've stayed on the crew so I could leak spoilers daily, just to irritate ANet. –Jette 21:57, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Not enough options for mesmers to regain energy? Clearly you never heard of a tab called Inspiration Magic. As for tanking, whatever mesmers have in that line it's a few stances, curiously enough, most of them in inspiration, but mesmers are supposed to be somewhat squishy so not too much problem there as far as I can see, particularly regarding Mantra of Recovery. If you're a mesmer that can't manage your energy, you're almost certainly a very bad mesmer - VileLasagna 22:03, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * There are a lot of options for mesmers to gain Energy, and wtf are you trying to tank with a mesmer for? -~=Ϛρѧякγ  User Sparky, the Tainted charr sig.PNG  (τѧιк)  22:05, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Are these options coming with the skill update, because I still don't see any. Cuilan 22:15, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Auspicious Incantation; Energy Tap; Energy Drain; Waste Not, Want Not; Signet of Recall; Mantra of Recall; Power Drain; Power Leech; Channeling; Lyssa's Aura and a few more (Added: Seriously, can't believe I'm having to seriously teach people about the existence of Inspiration)- VileLasagna 22:35, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You haven't taught shit so stop acting smug. Several of those are Elites meaning wasting 15 en on Mimicry just to copy them from a hero, and among the rest, the only decent 2 are auspicious and Drain.  Now compare them to any of the Ele Mantras and they're pure crap. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 00:00, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I was going to add more, but the core of what I wanted to say was summed up above. Other professions have sustainable energy management and many don't require 2-3 energy skills on their bar. Cuilan 00:08, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Beaten to it by the above. Mesmer elite energy management is decent, but you're not combining them with MoR without Mimicry. And when it comes to non-elite energy management, Mesmers definitely have the short end of the stick compared to Elementalists and Ritualists (and Necromancers are off the scale). Draxynnic 00:14, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Pro-tip: Mantra of Recovery also recharges your emanage spells. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  00:20, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * which as I already stated, have been mediocre at best for years ever since they were nerfed b/c Monks were getting "too much" energy from them in PvP. See.. that was back before the whole PvE split thing existed.  I just want Lasagna to stop being bad, IoW: <this_is_a_celerity.jpg>...your arguments are invalid. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 00:27, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * which as I already stated, have been mediocre at best for years ever since they were nerfed b/c Monks were getting "too much" energy from them in PvP. See.. that was back before the whole PvE split thing existed.  I just want Lasagna to stop being bad, IoW: <this_is_a_celerity.jpg>...your arguments are invalid. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 00:27, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

{Reset Indent} Necros end up being off the scale because they have real heavy e-management built in their primary. Rits have quite good e-management on Spawning Power as well, as well as some nifty stuff in Chanelling. Eles have a whole unique form of e-management built into their primary as well, or, as is the case of Elementalist Attunements (Not mantras which (apart from one exception) are stances, but enchantments) built around the idea of having an "abnormaly" large energy pool. But still, inspiration is the place to go if you need to throw some energy into your build. Specific situations can sure call for different stuff, but a few points in inspiration will almost always solve your energy problems, providing you're not trying to do something like spam chillblains as if it were an AoE damage spell. If you think mesmers can't amanage their energy, then you're the one being bad here - VileLasagna 00:52, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * MoR will be recharging the non-energy management skills too that you'll be casting. Also, we're talking about PvE (or at least I am) and you need a lot more than a few points into that attribute. Cuilan 01:02, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Mantra of Recall could user a shorter energy gain time or "ends early if" to it. Waste Not, Want Not needs knock down for a sure way to get the energy, but even then you require something for it and that means you need energy before you can use it. Mesmer spells better be crazy worth it. Cuilan 02:27, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * To be honest, the main one I'm looking at is the Elementalist, since the Necromancer and Ritualist energy management is more unconventional (most Ritualists these days use Spirit Siphon). However, even without the passive effect of Energy Storage, Elementalist e-management skills are generally better then their Mesmer equivalents, from the Elementalist skills being buffed as much as the Mesmer ones being nerfed. (I've done some maths on this - there are niche situations that work otherwise, but on the whole... there's a reason Mesmers that don't have a different secondary profession tend to carry GOLE even at 0 Energy Storage.) Draxynnic 11:04, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Cause a Mesmer isn't supposed to spam shit like Elementalists. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  15:47, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Personally, on most of my builds, Energy Tap tends to do a fair bit of the job, and it's pretty unconditional. Initially, I shared the same sentiment as Cuilan regarding Waste Not, and had a very cautious approach to it. That spell, though, surprised me greatly. Once you start using it, you realise that its condition is very easily met and makes it a great e-management skill. "If the enemy is not attacking or casting a spell"... well, KD'd is sure one. Chasing your sorry Ogden around? He's not attacking. Using a Signet? That's not a spell. Troll Unguent? Traps? Preparations? Glyphs? None of those are spells or attacks either. My favourite, though, is aftercast. Wait until, say, the Afflicted Monk casts Reversal of Fortune and catch him in the aftercast. Thats some easy 10-11 energy. Takes a bit of training, sure, and it is a bit more complicated than Glowing Ice or Glowing Gaze. But inspiration e-management works well even at low-ish attribute level. 8 points and you have 12-5 gain from energy tap. And that benefits a lot from you being a mesmer, with that unfriendly casting time. I guess the thing is inspiration e-management is much more unconditional and stand-alone than anything else. With ele, all you have is some mitigation if you're a secondary, so that, say, Searing Flames costs you 9 energy instead of 15. Rits favourite is spirit siphon, but, then again, that does require one or two spirits to make use of (and thus, truly shines when coupled with boon of creation). In fact, waste not itself saw its test run with me as a e-management option for my monk heroes (since we all know how good THEY are at managing energy). Mesmers have fewer options when dealing with casting very expensive spells, like Meteor Shower, Searing Flames or Chillblains. For that, pretty much all you have is Auspicious Incantation, which counts as "Your next spell comes for free" since used at Inspiration 8 with a cost 15 spell like Searing Flames or Heal Party, will only net you 4 energy back. Even so, it took Arms of Insanity spamming Quickening Zephyr to take my Arcane Echo+Meteor Shower build out of play (and though I didn't use it, I don't think Fire Attunement would have pushed that build through the realm of torment. I still stand to believe that Mesmers have great e-management on Inspiration Magic - VileLasagna 16:12, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Mesmers also have condition builds where the preferred elite for it and the build that goes with it is very heavy for a mesmer. That's Fevered Dreams. A necromancer can handle foes that aren't balled or close, extra aggro, and re-aplly better with it. It's basically a necromancer elite. So there you go, an example of a non-spam build requiring energy which is not possible. Cuilan 19:44, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No, you chain alot of skills. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  20:18, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * What's your point? Cuilan 20:21, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That you are trying to play something which a Mesmer isn't supposed to do. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  20:39, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Then why have a PvE update at all if mesmers will have unusable skills? "Chaining" spells isn't mesmer like since when? Most other professions aren't strictly locked into one type of thing. Cuilan 20:49, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Like, always? Mesmer is the class that is able to shut down classes at specific moments and places, to increase the chance of succesion. Also, name one other class that's not doing what it's supposed to do. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  21:25, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Fevered Dreams is unfeasible? Call the vatican, I must make miracles quite often then, cause one of my favourite builds is condition spamming with Fevered Dreams and it works mighty fine - VileLasagna 21:39, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Cause everything 'works' in RA. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  21:53, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * FD "works" on a mesmer, but it's superior on a necromancers with energy. Cuilan 22:41, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * FD isn't infeasible, it's just unused for some weird reason. It's a hex, making it overpowered by default, that chains perfectly with Wounding Strike for AoE Dazed basically on command.  It's like freaking Thunderclap except you can't dodge, and it's bigger.  Why people don't use the combo is beyond me.  Maybe it's because I haven't played in like 8 months or something.  –Jette 23:48, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Because if you're playing that in PvP, the Dazed isn't worth it and if you're playing in PvE, FD has too long of a recharge for Dazed to be useful. If it's good for the AoE Bleeding + DW, the dervish can just spam WS on any target swap anyways. -~=Ϛρѧякγ  User Sparky, the Tainted charr sig.PNG  (τѧιк)  23:53, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, it could be useful in PvP if you had someone spam a condition that ends quickly. Never mind. -~=Ϛρѧякγ  User Sparky, the Tainted charr sig.PNG  (τѧιк)  23:54, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Plz stop basing all arguments off current metas like "Eles are supposed to be the skill spammers" b/c the Mesmer's Armor already says otherwise. Just b/c Mesmers don't have the energy pool to do so right now in combat, doesn't mean Anet wants them to stay that way. And if they really had their shit together, they woulda included some level of spell immunity into one of those Elite stances or enchants while they were at it. ...or at the very least, granted interrupt protection through fast casting since the mob AI itself is now routinely interrupting 1⁄4 spells. I think a lot of us can agree that mesmers didn't need anymore armor-ignoring damage but to say "they have all the utility they could need" for PvE is just ignorant. Lyssa's Arua and VoR are great and everything but they shouldn't define the class' only capabilities(D.P.S.). -- ilr  00:51, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Speeding up all your spells offers some protection already. But Mesmers have a few stances to protect against interruption as well, and they still leave your elite slot free for other stuff. Any class can always use more utility, but I do think that Mesmers already are not bad on that. I agree though, and this is my greatest concern with this proposed update, that Mesmers don't need "more damage". That's for an elementalist to get some 19 Fire or Air and spam his spells. Mesmers should shine on field control, and lots of stuff are being apparently boosted and/or viewed regarding that, like Shared Burden and e-denial, which is good. Even Fevered Dreams. It's great, you pair it with fragility and you can see a lot of 21s popping on your screen, but it'll truly shine when you realise you keep reapplying AoE Daze on everyone and the casters aren't really managing to do much because of that. - VileLasagna 01:06, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Those stances are in inspiration magic which other classes were already exploiting to great effect. Meanwhile the one that Mesmers were supposed to have "Proprietary" Ownership of is currently failsauce and will remain that way until;  A)It's duration is increased and cost lowered, or B) It starts working more like Auspicious... -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 01:18, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Ever noticed recharge on various spells? <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  01:21, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Persistence of Memory can be maintained if the 3% recharge per fact cast thing is true at FC 9 (runed), I think. Lower cost would be nice if it's your non-energy spells being messed with. Never used or looked at due to lack of room. Cuilan 01:45, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Some skills will be given a nerfed recharge (moved from 20-30 seconds, etc) to counter the buff to Fast Casting and MoR. It shouldn't matter too much. Buffed skills recharges are crazy. Mesmers will still be armor-ignoring AoE machines.
 * Did I mention that mesmer interrupts will be able to interrupt any skill? Their affects will only trigger on spells, but they can interrupt anything. The bots will enjoy that. 208.100.1.46 14:09, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually many of the mesmer interrupts already interrupt any skill. Those are the ones I like to take when I'm running interrupts, so you can catch signets and preparations as well. - VileLasagna 15:14, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Rly?? That sounds fucking terrible ™ -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 23:12, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Chazek Plague Herder
Is going to be rediculouly funny to face off against. ;-) Justice 22:39, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If rolling over him like every other boss is funny, then yes it's going to be funny. Cuilan 00:25, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Aoe 4sec(possibly 5 at r20) KD which recharges every 5sec, on top of a non-existent cast time...Not saying impossible but with h/h it could lead to some amusing situations. Justice 03:50, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Some Thoughts
First, my understanding of the problem with PvE Mesmers is that 90% of the builds that actually help teams can be run much more effectively with a hero, rather than a human.

Second, granted that interrupting in PvE can be difficult, and the problems described (trying to interrupt a 1/2s spell with sub par wi fi and 500 ping can be frustrating) affect human players, but bad wi fi and a high ping will not stop a hero from interrupting with great precision.

Third, the Mesmer, at least in my eyes, is a Punishment class, with potential to be a support player.

Now, my issue with these potential updates is that they will just give the Mesmer heroes more power, and give them a place over a human mesmer in pugs. And please don't get me wrong, I am very happy that the mesmer is catching some love here, and I think that increasing the damage capabilities is a good way to put them back into play, but I don't feel like this will help human Mesmers near as much as hero mesmers.

I feel that the update should focus on increasing the utility, and possibly the damage, of "Punishment" skills, such as Mistrust, Shame, and Guilt. These are great examples of skills that a human can use just as effectively as a hero, if not better. But this all centers around my idea that Mesmers are a "If you want to cast, you will take some punishment" class.

As well, I feel that they can be much more supportive. Inspiration magic currently has a few staple skills (P drain, Channeling) and a fair few useful elites, many which don't see use on traditional mesmer bars. However, all these skills only really help the Mesmer. Inspiration could use a little bit of energy support for your party members, or something to help them cast or hit with attacks. Rather like Motivation, except enchantments and hexes instead of shouts and echoes.

Once again, I'd just like to reiterate that human mesmers should take priority over heroes, and while I, for one, am appreciative of this update, I would like to see more done to make room for more viable builds that humans can run better than computers. Thank you. (sigh, let the inevitable flaming begin). FleshAndFaith 08:38, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Why do people think that posting "what I think your mesmer update should be" opinions will change anything? Do you really think that Anet is going to read this and say, "By golly! He's right! Let's rework everything we just spent all sorts of time and money on!" It's Anet's game and they have one of the highest player bases of any online game out there. I think they have a decent grasp on what they're doing. They have defined what the mesmer class should be and be able to do, and they have a Test Krewe that will test everything out before it is released. Besides, the update has not even been released yet! Sure, Regina gave us a look at the possibilities of the update, but you still have no idea what the update is going to be. How about we all just sit tight and wait to see what happens and THEN tell Anet what to do. --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] 16:06, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Musha, the update preview is designed to garner feedback (hence, it's in the feedback namespace). ArenaNet doesn't have to take any of the feedback here (more often than not, they don't), but in one instance ArenaNet removed one of the changes they were previewing (Steelfang Slash) because a lot of people were saying that it was a bad idea. -- <font color="#ef8f50">R <font color="#916142">i <font color="#333333">ddle 17:02, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Builds that Humans run better than Heroes do: ManlySpike Wars, Perma ShadowForm, Terra, ASSN'Promise, Bonders, SS Rits, & anything else requiring PvE-only skills like Seed or SY!.  In other words:  Mesmers need a way to EXPLOIT imba skills better than any other class who has access to those skills which is something they sure as hell can't do with Inspiration magic and at the same time still won't gain the option for b/c all that Anet's given them is faster recharge on MESMER skills.  Obsidian or Shadowform won't recharge any faster... PvE only skills won't recharge any faster. And none of their own Skills grant them some kinda immunity to ANYTHING.  Their entire upgrade right now is still inferior in every conceivable way to Celerities & rock candies.  In other words:  1 hour of farming feathers or Nick-Trophies still totally replaces an entire CLASS.  W2G Anet!  ...you guys really got your fingers on the pulse of the Meta :D -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 23:13, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Musha, this IS one of the few places for players to discuss their concerns with potential changes where Anet can (and have) actually read feedback to help guide their choices. I'm not saying that this is wrong, and I'm not saying that I know the problem better than they do. I'm just voicing my concerns regarding a potential Mesmer update, which is exactly why these preview pages exist in the first place.
 * And since you seemed to miss it, my point was this: Mesmers are relied on largely for the ability to mess with casters. However, when interrupting, Heroes are often taken in place of humans, because Heroes are not likely to miss. More has to be done for the other skills to give human Mesmers added utility that can't be outrageously outdone by Heroes. Mesmers do not need more power behind their interrupts, but instead need more power in their "Punishment" skills. And to clarify, a Punishment skill would be something like Empathy, Backfire, or Diversion. FleshAndFaith 03:48, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, at the moment, Mesmers probably are the best at abusing PvE skills (especially spells) between Fast Casting and the ability to combine Arcane Echo and Assassin's Promise with more energy than an Assassin. Problem is, if you make a build that does this, you're not playing a Mesmer - you're playing a PvE skill spammer that maybe has some utility or backup offense in the case of an AP failure. That said, I hope the leaked Fast Casting change is PvP-only - I don't think Mesmers using fast casting on secondary profession skills has ever been a problem in PvE, and stopping Fast Casting working on PvE skills would hurt one of the builds that we know works for Mesmer primaries. Encouraging Mesmers to be Mesmers rather than PvE skillspammers is a worthy goal, but like imbagon, it's probably better not to nerf it until we know that there are competitive alternatives. Draxynnic 01:17, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * PS On the primary line - by my eye, most of these changes do seem to me to benefit human players at least as much as heroes, with the exception of the twitchy interrupts. And in those cases, the buffs to skills that slow down spellcasting - and I think all of them are being buffed - will make getting interrupts off on human reflexes just that much easier. Draxynnic 01:32, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Mesmer/Ranger Botting
As you all know this have become an out of control issue one of which aNet cant seem to fix. It takes countless emails, screenshots, and/or video to prove these people are using this program. Im not sure if anyone has posted something about this but ima post also. The botting program uses a .dll file that is injected into the Guild Wars executable file. I think if there is a way to make the executable file locked from editing i think it would stop this. Im not a programmer but im sure theres a way to prevent this. Just last night i face the guild Autobots Roll Out [bots] in Hall of Heroes and they were using 2 botting programs so they had 2 mesmers 1 Tease and 1 Psychic Instability, both of their bars had ALL intertups ( - Overload on the PI mesmer) no res no secondary skills. I definitely reported both of them as did my team. I just hope somethin can be resolved before HA becomes 100% dead. It already lost probably 30% of the HA community. What are your guys' thoughts on the matter? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Jorn-Fletcher (talk).
 * I think that even if there was a way to lock the .exe that the hackers would just be able to undo it. What I think is that a few months ago, when Anet was stressing account security, even had a major announcement on the login screen in red text that lasted for weeks, there was an article by one of Anet's IT security leads who said that they can and DO detect all 3rd party programs. These bots are 3rd party programs, so why don't they detect them and ban the accounts already? --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] 18:40, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Cause all current GW players are the only chance of any income. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  19:07, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * anet cant detect dll injection which is what all GW bots use, they can only guess if your botting if your doing something suspicious, like farming something repetitively to the point that no human would have the stamina to do. It's why they were able to ban the old minotaur botters, as they did the same thing over again. The new bots are more advanced and much harder to guess, hell some people even like the RA monk bots because they actually do a decent job of monking. 68.93.109.105 21:13, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * All software creates a pattern. There is no such thing as a completely random function.  In other words all interrupt timing can be datamined against their latency and the botting program discovered when it falls within a specific scope in milliseconds... -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 22:40, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Datamining being the tricky part in this, I'd guess. But assuming all this data is available and can be more or less easily gathered, ilr is right in that processing it would be fairly trivial in order to look for that kind of consistency (and then, of course, you have players contesting bans arising from that and so and so on, but that's another story) - VileLasagna 23:03, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Blizzard recently banned 300,000 players for less obvious hacking. No other MMO's in the industry even HAVE that many subscribers to ban in the first place and most of them were atleast contributing microtransactions.  None of the botters here are returning customers, they're just taking up bandwidth (and destabilizing it with packet manips). -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 02:02, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You know things are bad when you can make a guild called [Bots] and play high-end observable PvP. Anet has done a great job at randomly banning lots of people who they thought were evil in the past so why don't they do it now?  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:07, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * B/c those people A) didn't get in a fight with "the Frog" B) Are friends with "the Frog". -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 23:17, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Stopping hacking is difficult. So much so that there is a whole subfield of computer science devoted to it. Saying "lol anet cant stop hackers/botters" is really stating the obvious, as nobody can do that. Even the US White House's web page has been hacked. The main problem is that Guild Wars (the engine) doesn't do process scanning (not that I know of anyway), and it has no desync checking to detect cheating. Most online games have one of the two, many have both. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 02:24, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

conundrum
unless this thing gives back some serious energy (like a net gain of 20 or more) it will not make dom/illusion viable by itself. except maybe in PVP where death or quick wins give you back energy. Roflmaomgz 21:02, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * They are not going to make Illusion as effective as Inspiration or else nobody will use Inspiration. They are just going to make it reasonable to actually take (see Ethereal Burden and copy). -~=Ϛρѧякγ  User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png  (τѧιк)  02:10, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Conundrum is a good skill, but people don't use it because Migraine and Frustration are identical but better. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 02:26, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I like it for its group affecting ability over the elite skill Migraine while PvE focussed but if they want to tempt me away from using inspiration magic then they have to put a better healing skill in illusion or something decent in Fast Casting.--86.138.125.171 16:28, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion
I've thought long and hard and I've finally come up with a well calculated, innovative suggestion:

POST LINKS SCREEN SHOTS OF SAID TK LEAKS

This is the future of Guild Wars that I envision. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә    ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:00, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't have any links, but I heard Seeping Wound is getting Smiter's Boon'd and hexes are getting buffed. - Mini Me   talk  20:14, 14 May 2010
 * You heard wrong. Seeping wound will not double the divine favor bonus on your smiting skills. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 22:19, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If they Boon another skill I'm seriously going to flip out. If they don't want to properly design a game then they shouldn't be designing games.  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 22:42, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Reality Check: Most leaks don't happen on publicly linkable sites (& would need to be Screenshotted instead) -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 02:21, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, posting screenshots of leaked information would be awesome. Be sure to include the name, address, and phone number of the person you got it from. Thanks. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 02:51, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * And watch while Anet strings them up and kicks them off the team. (Xu Davella 14:00, 15 May 2010 (UTC))
 * So? Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:19, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure there's plenty others who'd love to step in. ...not me of course, I've already been on enough "beta teams" where all they want you for is datamining while they totally ignore even the most logical feedback... but I'm sure there's still plenty more suckers out there who'd bite that hook. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 21:08, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I find that there is a lack of leaks being posted. This could be a bug.  Should I report it?  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 14:22, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

So, I've opened GW and noticed Fast Casting got updated first
And I went and carefully considered the new changes: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU - VileLasagna 21:52, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't get it. Unless they're making fast casting cast spells even faster, why...? Cuilan 22:15, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * New fast casting already got implemented. No effect on non-mesmer skills with less than 2 secs casting times. That means no Lava Arrows, no Fire Storm, no Spirit Light, no Assassin Support, no Sniper Support, no Snow Storm, no Signet of Castigation...I know it's very exaggerated to say they've killed the class, particularly since now fast casting decreases recharge time of your mesmer spells by 3% in PvE. But the last thing mesmers needed was for an update to make them more alike a fire ele in terms of party role. And it feels like the only thing they want us to do now is "Spam E-Surge! LOL!"...Truly, the aggravation of feeling betrayed as a player does lead to that exaggerated feeling, "They've killed the class"... I know it's emo-rage and all, but suddenly I just don't want to even look at my Mesmer... Let's see how long it stays as my favourite class, future ain't looking very bright - VileLasagna 22:29, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Go try it, it's still the same, Fast Casting still effects 1 second spells, therefore they accidently updated the text but not the actual mechanic (like they did with the mesmer skills a few weeks back). 90.217.16.133 22:30, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That doesn't mean that the intended mechanic isn't going to be fixed and applied. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 22:44, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Ofcourse I understand that, but saying that "new fast casting already got implemented" may have lead people to believe it was changed, I was simply making sure people knew that it hadn't changed... yet. 90.217.16.133 23:15, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

I guess the developers don't like secondaries doing primaries' jobs better than primaries do, at least in PvP (N/Rt and E/Mos are examples of this in PvE). It'll make balancing Water Magic easier in PvP, although no Fast Casting for rez kind of blows, on top of the skills listed above by VileLasagna. The secondary PvE effect looks really good, perhaps a little OP, but the Mesmer needs it, imo (Psychic Instability is conveniently in Fast Casting, too). In the end, though, Mesmers are still pretty staple in PvP (VoR, Psychic Distraction, Power Block, all of which are Dom bars), and Illusion Magic might get a buff there, too. Even without FC for non-Mesmer skills, the updates still look like a net gain to me, tbh. ــѕт. мıкε  01:23, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Fevered Dreams nerf? Ash Blast and lack of energy. Cuilan 01:46, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you mean; I haven't seen the leak(s). Either way, Fevered Dreams really wasn't that good to begin with, in practice (Hero AI targets what you target, so if you're using Fevered Dreams, that monster will be dead soon, and Heroes were very bad with FD themselves, often casting it just before the monster would die), although the concept was very interesting (AoE Blind and Daze, in particular). ــѕт.  мıкε  01:53, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The skill itself isn't leaked, but the Me/E build. How the update itself will turn out I don't know and if there will actually be good builds to come from it would be my issue. Cuilan 01:58, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * There are cool mesmer builds that will be viable in both pve and pvp. I hope dual-mesmer (not the kind that throws VoR on your whole team then goes afk) builds come back. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 02:19, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Fevered Dreams not that good? That skill just mows through almost everything. "Sorry you're all dazed.... yeah, you're still dazed... you're all dazed again...". I have this memory in me that some of the skill updates are going to be ZOMGPWNAGE, but don't want to look right now. As for aNet not wanting primaries doing the job of other primaries, if feels like they're doing exactly that. Mesmers had their own niche in field control and shutdown, and also a versatility few other classes even come close. But now it feels like A-net is truly trying to make Mesmers more like eles, and take their out of their niche: "Well, let's give them lots of nuking instead". I'm still waiting to see what will become but considering the level of expectation I currently have, it's going to be REAL easy to get me positively surprised - VileLasagna 11:35, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Mesmers are getting a lot of interrupt and shutdown buffs (almost all of the skills listed on this feedback page's relate to one of the two). Yes, they're giving them damage buffs, but isn't that a good thing? Why interrupt and/or shut down when you can just kill? Of course, things like Clumsiness and Wandering Eye can do both. Cryway was probably the most play Mesmers had gotten in "high-end" PvE. If the FC change and the Psychic Instability buff go through (and they don't touch its recharge), you should be able to KD a mob with casters up to 2/3 of the time. VoR will also look a lot better when its recharge is reduced with FC. ــѕт.  мıкε  13:23, 15 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Are the people complaining forgetting that Mesmer skills are soon to receive a massive buffing? It seems that way. Arshay Duskbrow 11:55, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Personally I do remember that but, the thing is "where are they buffing us to". Also anyone that does not know what the original skill does is a doubtful candidate for reworking it. And it seems the Test Krewe was not aware of what Psychic Distraction did in the first place. That kind of thing drops your expectations real low - VileLasagna 12:02, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Fevered Dreams is strong considering it's a mesmer skill pre-skill update... It's pretty much a necromancer skill atm. I guess since 3 pve only skills won't be recharging faster the build should be better for PvE maybe, but Ash Blast. :S Cuilan 12:36, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Nah, FD is for people that can carry 16 illusion and bring fragility as well on their bar. Shit is serious damage. Curses does have lots of conditions though. If I'm running FD myself, though, I kinda get away with illusion for the conditions, and, of course, usually having one or two other party members heavy on conditions, like my ranger friend who likes to run Incendiary Arrows and lots more nasties - VileLasagna 22:22, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Resses will still be fast casted because they are longer than 2 second casts "(No effect for non- Mesmer skills with an activation time less then 2 seconds.)", so all 2 Seconds + skill still be effected. 90.217.16.133 13:14, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah ok, so Barbs will still be affected. ــѕт.  мıкε  14:27, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No, because Barbs is 2 seconds. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  14:53, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * With PvE and the 2 second thing, I don't see any reason for the change and any way to defend the change in PvE. Cuilan 16:05, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Less Fast Casting abusement. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  16:09, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * 2 is not less than 2. -~=Ϛρѧякγ  User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png  (τѧιк)  16:19, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * lol fast cast abusement. Cuilan 16:33, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not getting the funny part, care to explain? <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  18:26, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * any profession can already and will continue to be able to abuse "fast casting" through use of Essence of Celerity.png, Red Rock Candy.png and Slice_of_Pumpkin_Pie.png. <font color="Silver">Athrun [[Image:User_Athrun_Feya_Hamster.png‎ ]] 19:48, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The lol is in how you consider fast casting the attribute to be abusive when there aren't any speed clears or farm builds that make much use out of it if any at all. Cuilan 00:03, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It is pretty abusive in general, for example: Fast Cast Necrosis spam. That's not what a Mesmer is supposed to do and will be fixed. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  01:22, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Necrosis isn't a spell and was never "abused" when it was. Ether Renewal still exists for out monking monks. Cuilan 01:29, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, it was. Fast Casting is being abused to decrease your chance of getting interupted and/or increasing your damage output. Mesmer skills have been balanced around Fast Casting, skills from other professions have not. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  01:37, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Fast casting doesn't do much at all to decrease your chance of being interrupted. Necrosis already is nerfed along with the very weak builds with it that mesmers were trying to rely on to get into groups. The less than two second thing doesn't even apply to it. If fast casting was abused in any way, there would be speed clear and farm builds. We wouldn't even be having this update at all. Cuilan 02:05, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, FC Water, Curses and Blood were are (but won't be for much longer) popular in PvP. FC tends to be a little less useful in PvE, but a lot of Mesmer skills have long activation times, and as Infested mentioned, it is good for Necrosis. FC definitely wasn't abused in PvE, but it was in PvP with Water Magic; there have been lots of changes to make Water Magic more difficult to use on non-primary Eles. ــѕт.  мıкε  02:21, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Necrosis is a SKILL, not a SPELL. It is not and never has been affected by Fast Casting.
 * It used to be a spell, actually, but was changed to a skill in an update. Thus, FC used to affect it. So in other words...wrong. Arshay Duskbrow 12:55, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It used to be a spell, actually, but was changed to a skill in an update. Thus, FC used to affect it. So in other words...wrong. Arshay Duskbrow 12:55, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Just to clarify - Necrosis Nerf. (Xu Davella 13:48, 16 May 2010 (UTC))
 * one wonders though, if just how they forgot PD interrupted any skill, the test krewe maybe forgot Necrosis was a skill and this whole thing is based on the wrong assumption that it is a spell... everything seems somewhat plausible nowadays - VileLasagna 14:28, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * What does Necrosis in it's current state have to do with it? <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  15:25, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Hopefully not too much but it has been previously indicated an example of "Fast Casting abuse" in this topic/discussion/thread/whatever, thus justifying the great nerf Fast Casting is about to receive once this update comes through, thus a couple of remarks about the invalidity of such claims through logic and proper reading of the descriptions of the parts in question - VileLasagna 17:59, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, thought everyone was using Necrosis only as the main problem for a sec. Necrosis already got changed to a skill due to Fast Casting abuse. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  18:23, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * There's all sorts of theories as to why that happened, I dunno... seems like too much of a silly reason for FC to be the main reason behind that. Personally I kinda like the change in that it helps against margonite clerics and all that Spell Breaker annoyance. Necrosis is a powerful and boring skill and I don't see why that would get so much flak when Discord, its hero-friendly version, is still such a sad (and widespread) part of the PvE meta - VileLasagna 18:31, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, didn't think about that one. Passing through Spell Breaker, Shadow Form etc. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  18:34, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Remember when Guild Wars was actually about synergy between primary and secondary professions? Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:46, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Good times. Now it's all "ZOMG! HE HAS A SECONDARY!!! KILL HIM WITH FIRE!!!!!" - VileLasagna 20:53, 16 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It still is, but only if you're an Ele or Assassin. Everyone else can suck it apparently. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 22:24, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Any physical primary+Rits can pick up a scythe (or daggers) and blow up PvE, tbh. There are also N/Rts, the D/N Arcane Orders (which really isn't that good, tbh) and the Rt/N MM (also not that good XD). ــѕт.  мıкε  22:45, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Just to clarify, Fast Casting is getting nerfed (with the whole secondary thing) because of PvP not PvE, since apparently some people don't understand that. And Fast Casting imo is like what Shadow Form was to PvE, it was destroying the way the game was meant to be played. Since now, the main shutdown is interrupts (don't see no edenial any more etc) taking fast casting and using it with attributes like, Curses, Blood, Death (Taint), Water and Smiting, made sure that you could not be reliably shut down. Coupled with Inspiration Magic it made for OP casters of all types with great e-management and fast casting. It created a stagnent meta, and has had a lasting effect. This should have been done a long time ago, but better late than never... on the other hand bots > fast casting... ups. 90.217.16.133 22:47, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Arcane Larceny/Thievery
I know that they have not mentioneoned it but one day I hope that they could remember to make them useful by binding them to the domination magic level of the user rather than the skill tree that the skill came from. A Signet of illusions buff like that would make these skills far more useful. Empathy is a skill that is just as old so here's hoping that they don't forget this again. --86.138.125.171 16:09, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Fuck Anet. I'm tired of making you guys hang. Here's the real skill update preview.
(removed due to NDA breach)


 * You're insane, and also don't double post. Reaper of Scythes ** User Reaper of ScythesJuggernaut1.png 16:50, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, Get a real job.-- Nei l2250  ,    Render Lord User Neil2250 sig icon6.png 16:52, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Screenshot while you can, boys. I, for one, am surprised it took this long to fully leak :D 66.197.203.229 16:54, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * [] Im not botherd.-- Nei l2250  ,    Render Lord User Neil2250 sig icon6.png 16:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Copied to Notepad and saved. Cuilan 17:03, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I started reading but then I got too trolled and decided I don't want to believe it. PD with 12 secs recharge? Energy tap with 30?!?!? Might as well hand each mesmer a shotgun so that he/she/it can blow his/her/its own brains out and save us all the shame - VileLasagna 17:11, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You'd think for a "PvE" update they wouldn't have the less than 2 second thing. Signet of Weariness is interesting. Cuilan 17:16, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Haha, someone finally cracked and leaked it. I'm mostly worried about sigspike in HA and Complicate being a non-elite....elite, but Anet obviously doesn't care about HA anyway. 208.100.1.46 17:19, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * TAKE THAT SUCKERS!!! Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 17:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * WTF R U talkin' bout willis? This is just Garbage... If it Wasn't for the fact I can still run a Pseudo Terra on my own Mesmer and still farm, I'd go delete it right now... -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 20:36, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * HOLY SHIT I HAVEN'T BEEN THIS EXCITED SINCE RIT BUFFS! Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 17:55, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If this isn't a very well executed troll, what do you mean by "improve visual feedback" for Energy Burn/Surge? Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 19:46, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Purple Jesus Beams? 24.197.253.243 19:52, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If this isn't trolling I'll lose all hope in gw. --<font color="DarkSlateGray">Anorith [[Image:User Anorith Grenths Grasp.jpg|19px]]<font color="DarkKhaki"> Talk 19:59, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No comment. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  21:35, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That's awesome, Mind Wrack + Wastrel's Worry + Overload spam. →[ » Halogod User Halogod35 Sig.png  (talk)« ]← 21:47, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "Improve Visual Feedback" means you are no longer required to own a brain to figure out how much energy you drained from the target. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 22:05, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Doesn't it already show you a -Energy when it hits? Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 22:29, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought it meant like skill animation, but okay. I don't see a reason why I need to know how much energy I drained from target noob. →[ » Halogod User Halogod35 Sig.png  (talk)« ]← 23:54, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought it just showed the damage you deal. If it already shows you energy loss, then idk what it means. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 00:18, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It showed the max drained regardless of how much energy they actually had, iirc. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  00:25, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I like the change to panic, I think overload, migraine and empathy are a bit ridiculous now. I like sig of weariness as a possibility on other professions now-signets seem like they might actually see play. if they decide to buff the energy denial skills I worry. combined with the new mind wrack, that seems VERY powerful. if they go with improved visual feedback, then thats ok with me. but... e-surge as it stands now imo is already strong. Roflmaomgz 00:26, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Energy loss has always been displayed, I guess they play around with ways to make the animation look cooler or something, like with earthshaker... --<font color="DarkSlateGray">Anorith [[Image:User Anorith Grenths Grasp.jpg|19px]]<font color="DarkKhaki"> Talk 00:33, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Esurge and the domination line is pretty cruddy in PvE... Cuilan 01:54, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Unless you get hit with 3 of them at once from some Roaring Ethers -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 02:00, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought they meant that the animation for "target lost energy" would be more prominent. That way you don't need to call targets with low energy... it's like seeing RoJ. People will just know that somebody is losing energy and maybe to change target. Previously Unsigned 22:25, 18 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Erm, yeah.. Do not want. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  02:02, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Cuz PvE so hard. So hard. QQ Cuilan 02:07, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm looking at the PvP part. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  02:10, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * ROARING ETHERS ROARING FOREVER ON SOARING FEATHERS !!! Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 03:28, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * indeed i meant for pvp its really strong. pve they have dam near limitless energy anyways. i remember in my early days as a mesmer a particular warrior boss was using only energy skills so i thought i could drain him out of energy. after an e-surge,burn,phantom, drain, ether lord, and rinse and repeat he still kept spamming power attack lol. i'm guessing the improve visual may mean you will be able to see their max/current energy not just how much you drained like using burn and then seeing -8/40. oh and triple damage from vor if you use vor, overload, unnatural signet. cover with mind wrack and proceed to use the rest of your bar on them, GG. Roflmaomgz 05:25, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Warrior enemies generally have 20 energy and 3 regen. <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Jupiter.jpg|19px]] 14:35, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * so how was he still spamming power attack as well as other energy skills? im guessing cuz he was a boss he had more, but even so, he shouldn't have THAT much more. Roflmaomgz 16:11, 18 May 2010 (UTC)


 * So, what? Employee gets pissed at the update and decides to take it out on Anet by leaking the update? Or some troll taking advantage of everybodys' already hot tempers on the subject? I simply can't trust that this is a real leak. --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] 14:42, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It looks like the same thing I've seen, but I'm not on the TK, so I could have been lied to. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">14:52, 18 May 2010  (UTC)
 * It might be hard to believe given that the Tactics update was so solid, and they DID stop most HolyWrath SC's. But did they stop SF & Terra SC's?  Hell no.  They're definitely making progress and I'd trust their balancing a lot more than I do Izzy's.  But they're still letting personal bias dictate some very amateurish loop holes to persist.  ...it's human nature.  Which makes this "leak" and all it's failures to keep hexway suppressed wholly believable and exceedingly probable.  ...And don't bother calling me out with some "oh yeah, well what SHOULD they do" crap b/c it's already too late for that.  We'll be lucky if the next update for Dervs/Paras even reaches the TK before GW2 goes into beta. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 21:54, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

The update is due in "two days", apparently. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә    ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 01:20, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The mesmer update will come with accidental dervish and paragon skill descriptions. Cuilan 01:45, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

RUpt BOT BUFF WTF??82.203.3.3 11:24, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I reckon that since the Test Krewe has been active, the updates that have been tested by them are of far better quality than the updates given by Izzy and co.. I missed the leak, but if it's crap...(Xu Davella 14:53, 19 May 2010 (UTC))
 * It is crap. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  15:02, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Remember like when you lost to Onslaught in Marvel vs Capcom he would hover to your corpse and say "The dream is dead!"... yeah, well... that's the feeling brought forth by the said leak (which to me reeks of hyping techniques by aNet) - VileLasagna 15:06, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It might help to note that since the Test Krewe was implemented they changed their update style. Previously they would either work on overused skills in the meta, or skills people had forgotten about, across the entire spectrum of classes. With the implementation of the Test Krewe they started focusing on specific classes (ritualists) and their schools (warrior tactics and hammers) and now mesmers. I would say the shift from a broad focus to a narrow one has more to do with recent "success" than the Test Krewe. The only thing I attribute to the Test Krewe is some members capitalising on their privileged position and making money selling info about Shadow Form nerfs and delayed updates to account for time spent communicating with them. 114.78.35.145 15:07, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Making money selling info? Really? Where do you get your info from? Now I'm thinking that the guy who leaked this info in the first place is an idiot. Could've made 5 cents if he waited 20 minutes...j/k, But what would leaking information serve in this context? That people will leave the game earlier? Or will this information provide the means for users on PvX wiki to gain kudos for being the first to make the next Discordway? (Xu Davella 15:53, 19 May 2010 (UTC))
 * I think it's just viral marketing, and possibly research. They're leaking this to provoke and gauge reactions. The info was here for days on the wiki's currently most active page. We had all sorts of feedback and discussion then, suddenly "oopsie, this was not supposed to be here!"... I don't buy it. And I kinda don't feel like playing GW either after this preview, feeling that my favourite class is about to die. I'm just waiting to see and pick up the pieces after this update. One wonders though, where are they trying to take the game? They made dervs more resistant, fixed pets for PvE, pwned perma Shadow Form (way too late), they've buffed hammers, helped tactics...it sounds okay... but now this... and discord is a funny one as well, someone mentioned stagnant meta, Discordway is a blot on PvE. I believe it's existance by itself is a good justification for people that say aNet doesn't care about PvE - VileLasagna 19:16, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you just saying that to get a response from Anet? (Xu Davella 22:27, 19 May 2010 (UTC))
 * Maybe somewhere deep inside I still hope they'll drop the whole thing. Or I could just be venting out in frustration I need to reinstall SuSE, who knows - VileLasagna 22:55, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I hope they don't b/c I spent a whole day lampooning the leak. I didn't actually save the original text to my harddrive so I have no idea what the actual details are anymore but it's probably better that way b/c they can't claim I'm an accessory to the distribution of said NDA breach.  And while I couldn't agree more that Discord is overused... I take serious issue with the terminology that they "Pwned" Shadowform.  They didn't.  It's still vastly superior to Vow of Silence and Spell Breaker and a lot easier to manage than Obsidian.  None of the Drawbacks it's supposed to have are really being applied b/c players can just get around the Damage-Dealing restriction way too easily. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 23:51, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Hopefully Anet has some super cool ideas they haven't shown to the Leak Krewe. Cuilan 23:57, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

I said "pwned" because now permas are not the overlords of farming and whatever. I personally have a lot of prejudice against sins, one of the reasons is that I feel about 90% of the very worst players (in skill, style and maturity) in GW pick sins for their main, I believe old SF was one of the big reasons. I actually really like the new Shadow Form, it serves a more focused purpose and it made my mesmer's running build quite better - VileLasagna 18:10, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Right, but those parts of it you're enjoying aren't the parts I'm taking issue with. I'm pointing out that the major fundamental compromise Anet thought it was making, and had so many SF'ers initially QQ'ing when it shipped, was this idea that the Perma SF'ers' offensive power is limited greatly the same way an Obsid or VoS user's is. It's Not.  And in too many cases they're still exploiting the Mesmer secondary to fuel their energy for even bigger damage spells that skirt around that compromise. (Obsid Ele's exploit /Me too, but they hit a much bigger brick wall against any mobs with wild-blow/strike).  IoW: It's still an illusion b/c there's a big loophole preventing you from calling what they did "Pwning" it.  You measure the changes made to it through direct comparison to where it now stands with its peers, not by its descent from god-mode. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 21:30, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Meh, I concede XD - VileLasagna 21:40, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * In other news, whoever it was on Tuesday who said the update was in 2 days... *glares* -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 21:50, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That would be the perfect storm washing over my sunny weekend - VileLasagna 22:24, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * A warm-front is sweeping in from Canada and will likely cause severe mesmer buffs across the tri-state region over the weekend. Temperatures will see a high of 75 aoe damage tonight and will stay high until monday morning.  Here's your 7-day forecast.  Chaos Storms will move in on Thursday.  Expect to see up to -90 inches of energy loss on Friday.  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 02:27, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * -90 energy loss would be +90 energy. –Jette 03:02, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Enough guys. Move this to a fansite if it doesn't address the actual update information on the associated page, it doesn't belong here. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  03:37, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought this was a fansite. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 04:53, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * A wiki and a fansite is not the same thing... Even if the feedback name space has deteriorated into one. -- Lania Elderfire [[Image:User Lania Elderfire pinkribbon.jpg]] 05:38, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * And we actually have had pieces of serious discussion spread around here and there. It's just that everyone seems to have strong opinions this (some of love, some of deep ugly hate and desperation) and at the point where we are the update looks imminent. Despite the whole feedback idea, as users we don't feel like our opinion really matters or that we can do anything but still need somewhere to vent those opinions, so the talk space of the update preview draw us, as it seems like a good place to talk about the previewed update in question - VileLasagna 08:26, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * ...it doesn't "address" the associated update anymore b/c the rest of the update info was removed for NDA... duhhh. Which was: Anet loves double standards.  -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 12:51, 21 May 2010 (UTC)