Talk:Health degeneration

Prof Icons
Do we need the prof icon before every skill icon on this page. Each section has the profession as the header, and skills are colour coded anyway. Therefore it seems redundant to me. -- Lemming64 14:55, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Re: Icons
Do we need them? Probably not. I put them in as more patterned off of other pages but considering my attempt at organization I fully concur on redudancy. Crysania Anchorwind 14:57, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it would look better without them as well. Maybe just slap a big version of the icon next to the profession headers? HeWhoIsPale 14:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yup, looks silly having large icons repeated over and over. There's a bit of inconsistency though, look at Attack speed, Exhaustion and Knock down. We need some standardisation, any opinion on which looks best? --Xasxas256 15:04, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd like either exhaustion or knock down's. Basically, either the profession or the skill icon. I'm on the fence as to which I prefer. HeWhoIsPale 15:31, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I prefer the icons despite the redundancy. I am, however, certainly in support of a 'common standard' Crysania Anchorwind 15:06, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * which icons, the prof icons or the skill icons? I think the prof icons are erroneous. I have no problem with the skill icons though. -- Lemming64 15:26, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * either the profession icons should go or the profession headings should go. there's no need to redundantly list a profession heading and profession icons. -- VVong | BA 17:57, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Get rid of the profession icons for every skill and add the profession icon to the profession headings.--Bane of Worlds (talk • contribs) 22:13, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

recent change in degen/regen game mechanics?
The article says degen/regen is capped at +/-10. I think i remember it was impossible to get more than -10 degen a time ago, so if you use e.g. SoR with a +10 regen the maximum degen you could get was "-0" (-10 + +10 = 0). Now I'm surprised its possible to still have still -10 degen recently while using a +10 regen skill (in case sufficient degen conditions/hexes are applied at the same time, like burning, nightmare, etc.). For example I often use Mystic Regeneration with +9 regen and still suffer a -10 degen from several necro hexes. I'm quite sure this is not how it worked before and I don't think it works as it should (because an actual -20 degen resulting in an absolutely undenyable -10 degen is just plain imbalanced). Is my memory corrupt or did something change during the last weeks? --Xer 22:08, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The cap has always been on the sum. Backsword 22:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, I'm sorry. --Xer 00:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion to skill table
I would like to suggest to split the skill table in article to 2 parts. First table could contain only skills which inflict conditions, because any health degeneration due to condition has a fixed value. Second table could contain all other skills for which a degeneration is not fixed and depends on level in corresponded attribute or title. I think that such split would be more informative. --Slavic 17:23, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree or remove the condition-causing skills because those skills don't cause health degen. they cause conditions and that conditions do the degen Rhonin Soren 20:12, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I suggest to remove condition skill tables and to add links to bleeding/poison/desease skill listings instead of duplicating them. Keep other sources of degen that aren't conditions. Elephant 14:25, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * My thoughts exactly. In fact, I just did that before reading your comment :) Tub 14:40, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I would agree that not listing skills that apply conditions would be best. There will need to be a section, though, that deals with skills like Toxicity. --JonTheMon 14:43, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * They've always been listed in "other sources", my edit also referenced them along with the conditions. It has been reverted though, hopefully Neil2250 can share his opinion on the matter? Tub 14:50, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * /sigh. All im saying is Insted of removing all the condition dealing skills, we just add what your saying in other sources over Lace'whatever and Toxic'somthing, see what you removed in This edit is what im not liking.-- Nei l2250  ,    Render Lord User Neil2250 sig icon6.png 18:20, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * But the list of skills that deal X condition are already listed on the condition's page. Why make a redundant list here? --JonTheMon 18:22, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Because they Cause Health degen, also- they have been there for a long time without dispuit.-- Nei l2250  ,    Render Lord User Neil2250 sig icon6.png 18:23, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No, they cause conditions and the conditions cause the health degen. And just 'cause something has been there a while doesn't mean that it's perfect. Also, one benefit of not listing skills here is that if a skill gets changed and should be added/removed from this list, you wouldn't have to do that, since it'll get updated on the condition page. --JonTheMon 18:25, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You know what? Whatever. i cba to put up with a fight of people not listening to Reason.-im out-- Nei l2250  ,    Render Lord User Neil2250 sig icon6.png 18:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * So reason is only agreeing with what you want? Ok, there are two sides to this: either a comprehensive list of all skills that in some way or another end up with the user having health degeneration, or a set of skills that are categorized and separated onto appropriate pages with links to those appropriate pages. Since this is a wiki with separate pages for a reason, I'm for the latter. --JonTheMon 18:35, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What he's saying is that it's unreasonable to delete all the condition causing skills, like Tub did, because they cause Health Degeneration. Splitting it into a table of 2 parts could seem benefitial in some sense too. You could make it easier to understand by displaying the different categories but deleting them is completely negative.-- S ilven User Silven sig.jpg 10:34, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

I still maintain that condition causing skills don't cause degeneration. The conditions cause degeneration. If you look at your effects monitor, you'll see an icon for bleeding, but none for sever artery. Thus I'd like to at least see the actual causes of the degeneration listed, including the actual amount of degeneration which the condition articles carefully hide. Do you disagree so far?

After that, we may argue whether we need the list of condition causing skills to be included on the same page, or whether it's acceptable to refer to a separate page. My reasons for prefering the latter are pretty much what JohnTheMon said above. I also think it's fitting that skills that don't directly cause degeneration aren't listed direcly, either. Otherwise we may end up having to list the Kanaxai Aspect of Pain, because it's mere existence (very) indirectly causes degeneration to those near him. Or Lava.

I've done some more editing on User:Tub/Health Degeneration, adding some things and restructuring others. The distinction between "Hexes and wells" and "other sources" was a bit weird to begin with, especially with cry of pain listed in the former. The only thing I'd consider missing is a screenshot. Of course we could also re-insert the condition causing skills if that ends up being the consensus. Tub 14:55, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I like your example except for the inclusion of Lacerate and Toxicity in the conditions section. --JonTheMon 18:04, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Made changes, Suggesting more
So I made the changes that were talked about before, since there seemed to be no real disagreement and it's been months since the suggestion was made. However I'd like to suggest that the Skills section be split into Skills that Cause Degeneration, Skills that Conditionally Cause Degeneration, and Skills that Mimic the Degeneration Effect. Most of the current skills would place into the first category. The second category would be for Lacerate and Toxicity (and anything similar to those). The mimic category should list Agony, Renewing Surge, Illusion of Pain, Glimmering Mark, etc. I think that would make the page both more informative and more like other pages that list skills with some effect. Lillium 17:03, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for that. On my old suggestion, I had merged the skill list because I didn't find the distinction meaningful. Conditional degeneration would include Corrupt Enchantment, Cry of Pain and others, and I'm not sure if splitting them off is helpful.
 * About skills that mimic degeneration, I'd just refer to the Damage over time article, which already has a list. Tub 22:36, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe someone should count up the number of conditional degenerations, and that might help decide if its worth splitting or not? Or maybe the way they're listed could be changed. The Condition pages list what conditions need to be met to apply the condition, which is what I'm thinking of since that's pretty helpful. Of course, its much better as is, just trying to think of what could maybe improve it farther. I will go add the Damage over time article to Related Articles now though. Lillium 23:55, 26 December 2010 (UTC)