User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Underpowered Skills/Ranger/Archive 3

This skill has been languishing for ages. In Nightfall you gave us the incredible Burning Arrow, for which I thank you kindly, but the vigor of that Marksmanship elite only cast a deeper shadow on Punishing Shot, an elite that as it is will never, ever be used seriously. It's a shame because it has great potential to be a powerful and feared elite skill. All it would need is some more damage (+30 at rank 15, say), or perhaps a functionality change: remain at +20 unconditional, but allow +40 when interrupting a skill. I've been wishing for something like this for a long, long time. Arshay Duskbrow 05:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Punishing is still useful, mainly in ranger spikes. The problem with the skill, in gvg, is that it won't help you more on a split than Cripshot or Burning Arrow.

What..the...hell? What the hell kind of a Ranger Spike uses Punishing shot in the past year? The only R-Spikes I see are using Glass Arrows..which is kinda meh anyway. Sword.wind. 17:31, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * See, this is what really annoys me. Whenever I try to broach this topic, people's response is always something along the lines of "OMG BUT RSPIKE!!" Rspike is dead, and has been ever since aftercast was added to all 1/2 second bow attacks, a long long time ago. Nobody uses Rspike, and buffing this skill in the suggested manner is not going to make Rspike flavor of the month. All I am asking for is more punch to this elite bow attack. Arshay Duskbrow 01:00, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that it could use a boost of some sort so that it is comparable to the more recent elites.Dargon 01:29, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You might want to tell all the teams winning halls with r-spike in the past week (I've seen r-spike vs r-spike in halls more than once recently) that their build doesn't work. And I can't imagine what you would use Punishing for other than spiking even if the damage was buffed - d-shot is always going to be a better interrupt. Errr 14:07, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I believe you misunderstood. Let me rephrase: R-spike with Punishing Shot is dead, and has been for a long long time. Buffing Punishing Shot is not going to make R-spike with Punishing Shot popular all of a sudden, especially if on-interrupt damage is added, which would not affect its spike utility at all. Arshay Duskbrow 09:35, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I like what Arshay Duskbrow is suggesting, Disrupting only triggers on interrupt anyways. Xitoahc 21:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

This is an example of where GW's game design has jumped the shark. Rather than upgrade an existing skill (PUnishing shot) you add a new skill (Disrupting Shot) that is almost, but not quite as good. You know how Gaile is always talking about a positive attitude? Well, maybe ANet needs to start thinking "positive" by trying some BUFFS. ChaoticCoyote 13:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

All the Teams winning halls in the past week with r-spike are using GLASS ARROWS with FORKED ARROW. After that they use SAVAGE SHOT. PUNISHING SHOT is NOWHERE in that line. People don't R-spike when there is a second delay between your ability to shoot an arrow, much less when the arrow still has to travel. Sword.wind. 19:49, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what all you people are asking for. You're acknowledging that there is already a very strong set of r-spike skills out there, but you apparently want a different elite buffed to the same (or higher?) level to do the same thing as the current r-spike bar achieves.  If you want to play r-spike, just use Glass Arrows etc, which works great.  If you don't want to play r-spike, why the hell would you want to buff Punishing?  I don't get it.  Errr 22:31, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe so it's a viable elite? Personally i always felt that Punishing and Savage Shot recharge should've been switched since a looong time, since even if both were non-elite, i'd pick Savage Shot over it all the time just because of that. But since i know no ranger will be in favor of any nerf to Savage Shot since they're so used to it being a godly stapple ranger skill, i'd at least support having Punishing Shot actually be... Punishing. Making it deal double +damage if you interrupt a skill seems like an easy way to do so. Patccmoi 00:00, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * "If you don't want to play r-spike, why the hell would you want to buff Punishing? I don't get it." See? just the mentality I was talking about. People don't seem to get that Punishing is otherwise USELESS. I want it to be useful and potent on its own. Adding extra on-interrupt damage will not increase it's spike power, but it will make it MUCH more useful in general. That's all I want. Arshay Duskbrow 04:02, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Since this isn't a PvP only skill. I thought the point of skill balance was to make the game diverse, but i guess you at least think not. Some people actually want to make some skills viable, but other people, not disimilar to you, get angry since other skills can do similar things. The sole point of punishing shot isn't or shouldn't be r-spike. Make it useful. Sword.wind. 21:35, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

As a very, very long time Ranger player and enthusiast, I agree that Punishing Shot should get a buff. It was my favorite elite in Prophecies, and I even used it throughout Factions, but now we have the amazing Burning Arrow which seems like the only skill worth taking most of the time. I like the idea of leaving the unconditional damage alone and adding extra damage on a succesful interrupt, which should definately make this shot punishing. --J. Dublin
 * You see how much people want this? Please, please consider adding additional on-interrupt damage, which would make Punishing Shot a viable general use elite. Arshay Duskbrow 03:58, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Can anyone explain to me why they gave the non-elite version a lower recharge and higher damage bonus?
 * Because Savage Shot was originally a 'next attack' skill with no activation time, while Punishing Shot had one. When they gave Savage Shot an activation time, they didn't raise the cooldown (honestly i still think they should have, to around 8s) and it became a far, faaaar better skill than Punishing. Punishing needs to do some serious +damage on interrupt. Or lower it to 5E and 5s recharge so that it's actually a Savage Shot replacement Patccmoi 15:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * 5 energy 1/2 cast 5 second recharge. This skill hits for 13...21 damage. This skill intterupts foes action. If that action was a skill this hits for an additional 13...21 damage. THAT is a Punishing Shot worth using. Done25 15:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

08/09/2007 - Punishing Shot: decreased recharge time to 5 seconds.

Izzy, I want you to know I really appreciate you indulging us, but the thing is, this is still just a Savage Shot that takes up your elite slot, and I honestly can't see it being used any more than it already is (not at all, in other words). Buffing the recharge was the wrong way to make this skill more viable. It needs more damage. Let it be conditional, on-interrupt damage, but making it recharge 3 seconds faster is not going to bring this skill out of the garbage bin. Then again, it's possible you only made this change so that Disrupting Shot's recharge could be lowered appropriately...This is a start, and again thank you for listening, but I would've preferred the recharge be left as was, and given it on-interrupt bonus damage instead. Sorry if I seem ungrateful. Arshay Duskbrow 01:16, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

keep the new recharge: it's a start: and make it disable the skill for 10-20 secounds. That's a lot more punishment. Sword.wind. 05:00, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That might make it too good when used with dist shot. With a 5 second recharge this would hurt a hell of alot more then I think it should.--Atlas Oranos 11:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 10 energy, 10 recharge, disables the skill for 5-15 seconds and deals +x dmg. thats punishing. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:98.196.45.234.

Well, it is elite, unlike d-shot, but you have a point. 10 energy, 6r, +10..25 5-15 disable. I like that. Sword.wind. 21:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Make it dshot with 10 sec rec, and a shorter disable time. Readem  Promote My Ban Here  06:37, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Since it's supposed to be punishing, what about this? 10e, .5c, 10r If punishing shot hits, you strike for +10...18 damage and your target is interrupted. If you successfully interrupted someone this way, this attack deals double the damage. This would make the skill unusable in Rspike, but freaking awesome on a damage ranger. -Bankai, too lazy to register
 * I honestly think the simplest fix to make this skill be able to perform well as an elite is to make the + damage just a tad higher. Rangers are a bit underpowered at the moment dps-wise so I wouldn't think that doing so would hurt at all.  If a ranger goes interrupt, they would be able to do decent damage if this skill's damage was raised to at least + 30 at 12-16 marksmanshipif you're going to make it unconditional damage.  I do rather like the idea of leaving the unconditional damage alone and adding on interrupt damage.  I would suggest something like +20-30 on interrupt damage at 12-16 marksmanship.  In my experience, rangers are lacking compared to the other classes and this would give some power to them again.  - Anon


 * Isn't Shield of Absorption a good enough reason not to fear R-Spike as much anymore? Dancing Gnome 20:23, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok going to try to mash ideas together.


 * Elite Bow Attack. If Punishing Shot hits, you strike for +10...18...20 damage and your target is interrupted. If the person was using a skill, you strike for +13...25...28 damage. 10.1/2.5


 * Elite Bow Attack. If Punishing Shot hits, you strike for +10...18...20 damage and your target is interrupted. If the interrupted action was a skill, that skill is disabled for an additional 0...13...16 seconds. 5.1/2.10


 * Both look reasonable.--Atlas Oranos 13:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

By the gods! Why is it so **** hard to see that this skill needs a BIG boost? This skill was brought up THREE MONTHS AGO!!! (Pardon my temper) Done25 20:42, 26 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Elite Bow Attack. If punishing shot hits you strike for + 10..22.25 damage and your target is interrupted. If target for was using a skill, that skill is disabled for 1..4..6 seconds.

If you would rather use a not elite skill over this, then this skill really sucks.. almost as much as lod now but still a bit better. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:68.20.17.16.


 * What? Light of Deliverance is still one of the best skills in the game. -- Gordon Ecker 02:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, Wrong skill lol, I meant horns of ox 68.20.21.224 22:08, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

This definitely need a boost now after what they've done to Magebane Shot. Lightblade 10:53, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I actually use this elite quite a bit, but only in RA. Spamming it ALONGSIDE Savage Shot and Dshot is what makes it viable.  You basically need both to make the build work.  Magebane accomplishes the same role now, but it doesn't increase damage.  That said, Punishing Shot is an okay elite, but these days, in a world of 1/4-1/2 CT skills and blockway, it needs a little utility.
 * Elite Bow Attack. If Punishing Shot hits, your target is interrupted and takes 10...18...20 damage. If that target was using a skill, all of that enemy's skills are disabled for 1 second. If Punishing Shot is blocked, your target takes 10...18...20 damage.
 * Unblockable to an extent, but can't interrupt through a block, and only deals bonus damage when blocked. The 1 second disable drains adrenaline, and can be a minor nuisance to casters.  The main advantage in disabling skills for 1 second is that even with PS's aftercast, your target will be unable to use ANY skill until you've recovered, enabling you to easily guess when he'll use his next skill. --Reklaw 17:34, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Rather than just 1 second make it a 5 second disable to all skills of the same attribute line, like a lesser Power Block effect. Underwood 21:03, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

+5...13 Conditional bonus damage? I think i'd rather have Read the Wind than this. Antiarchangel 02:30, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not meant to be used by bows but by other weapons (one of the very few prep working on any). It's really sucky, but it's cause they're worried about the overall +damage stacking with stuff like Conjure + this, or Order + this. But tbh it's still quite bad and i'd rather see its effect changed a bit. For example, something like 'life steal' instead of +damage would give this more interest as an elite (could be interesting on Assassins) and it would make sense with 'Scavenger' too. And it could make some sense to use this on a Bow Ranger instead of Glass Arrows, which is just flatout superior atm. Patccmoi 13:37, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I've tried several bow-based build with this, even some non-bow. It's just not worth it there are much better skills to use then this one for an elite slot. Please buff :) Xitoahc 21:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Make it not work if there are any enchantments on you and give it something like +15...30 range. Antiarchangel 23:51, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Elite Preparation. For 24 seconds, your attacks deal +5...13...15 damage for every Condition suffered by the target. (Maximum of +5...21...25). --Deathwing 01:39, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * +Damage on attacks above the ~15 range becomes broken rather quickly: consider that the standard RSpike ranger hits with 3 arrows in a period of 0.5 seconds - do you really want to increase the spike damage of an rspike team by 75 per ranger (with an example +25 damage)from a single prep? [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 07:20, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Someonething like this would be the best: Elite Preparation. For 24 seconds, your deal +5...13...15 and if you hit a foe suffering from a condition you deal an addition al +5...13...15 damage. InfestedHydralisk  [[image:Shadow_Prison.jpg|19px]] 23:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill is ridiculously useless to bow users since even some non-elite preparations are better than this as far as damage goes. It appears that this is therefore for a ranger secondary who uses attacks of some kind.  In my opinion, the 2 second cast of this preparation reduces the skill's effectiveness for a melee user to use this effectively, not to mention that the + damage is too low for most guys to give up their other elites for this.  I'd up the damage of this skill or perhaps make it an instant cast signet with a manageable recharge so that other preparations are no longer a factor and so that ranger secondaries would not have to worry about the casting time.  Also, signets can be countered too, so I'd doubt it'd be overpowered. - Anon
 * You could also cause this skill to convert all of your damage to something like dark or holy damage to prevent it from being used with the conjures (which aren't that hot since one of the latest updates anyway.) This is one of the truly needy elites, though.  I can't believe how awful it is.  It doesn't even have any utility.  And the fact that it can't be used with another preparation just gives it its own coffin.  This elite MUST be buffed, altered, or shot. --Reklaw 07:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I only see one reason why its a conditional 13 damage preparation and its cuz it can be used with something else than a bow, if you find urself wielding a bow just go Glass Arrows because this is a lost lost cause. But yes, this skill wouldn't be used even if it wasnt elite, there are better non-elite preparations. --Cursed Angel 22:01, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not that this skill is underpowered, it's that there's no skills to use with it. The only 2 Preparations I can think of that can use this is Choking Gas or Seeking Arrows. Antiarchangel 20:25, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That is a very good point. Like you said, it has two really good uses, but that is it. Maybe add in a 15%, or maybe even 25% attack speed bonus? I mean, it is elite and all. Edit: Definitely would need a lot lower 0 spec duration though. --Deathwing 20:27, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah,add a mini speed buff, although that will make choking gas stronger to, faster interupt InfestedHydralisk  [[image:Shadow_Prison.jpg|19px]] 20:31, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * They just alternate between IAS stances and this anyway. --Deathwing 20:37, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I remember joking with guild mates that this skill should just be renamed to "Use With Choking Gas". Of course, that was prior to Seeking Arrows being around, but a great deal of seeking arrows usage is due to it pairing up so well with already established CG rangers. [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 02:51, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Practiced stance in the underpowered section? Has hell frozen over? I didn't get the memo.  Without the recharge clause, this skill would still be broken. Shard 22:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's an elite that synergizes with only a few skills, just like Steady Stance synergizes with Drunken/Desperation Blow. It's fine, it's just that CG Rangers aren't worth bringing in the current meta right now. Saph 14:38, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't recall Choking Gas rangers ever being worth bringing anywhere. It's like a roulette wheel of interrupts. --Reklaw 07:05, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Just add in 'While under the effects of a preparation, you attack 25 or 33 % faster.'Underwood 20:51, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

The recharge and energy cost of this skill is cool and all but...the extra damage you can deal is very low, and this skill is even an elite skill. Maybe add +5 extra maximum damage or something. InfestedHydralisk  13:21, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It's really bad when you compare it with the new GW:EN skill too Patccmoi 14:54, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah InfestedHydralisk  [[image:Shadow_Prison.jpg|19px]] 15:05, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Should deal additional damage, as well as maybe dealing Bleeding/Cracked Armor on attacks. 76.64.59.41 05:56, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I was thinking bumping the damage way up to +4..20, but adding an end condition if either you or your pet fails to hit with an attack.--Skye Marin 14:48, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I would go for 5...13...15 damage without an ending condition InfestedHydralisk   23:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Make it "For X..X seconds, your pet moves X..X% faster and its attacks has 10% Armor Penetration. You deal +X damage with your attacks." 74.14.106.67 01:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Like that one a lot. &mdash; Rapta (talk|contribs) 05:01, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sundering Pet for the win on that one... seems like a very good buff for a pet's damage, and while maybe not the best Beastmaster Elite option, it would at least become an option with that effect. -- Jioruji Derako.> 08:25, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What about: For 30 seconds you and your pet have 10% armor penetration and deal +X damage. InfestedHydralisk  [[image:Shadow_Prison.jpg|19px]] 00:25, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

There are several issues with the skill: 1) it's damage over time, so it should be more efficient than Enraged Lunge, 2) it's pure DPS, so it should be somewhat comparable to other DPS elites like EL, 3) it doesn't have the requirement of having many recharging pet skills, making it easier for thumpers etc to abuse, 4) the counter doesn't reset if you reactivate it before 5 attacks are used, making it nearly pointless on a pet, as hitting 5 times in 10 seconds will only happen against unmoving targets with the pet under an IAS. As much as I like the skill in theory for a ranger doing a hybrid bow/pet build or example, and think it could be really neat, I see huge issues with it becoming a really cheap thumper booster. I don't like the "number of hits" and counter methods, as they are prone to issues with the counter - I'd prefer a duration in which a bonus applies. I suspect it should be limited to ranged weapons for the bonus in that case - something like (5, 10) "For 10 seconds your pet's attacks and your bow attacks deal 1..10..12 extra damage." This would prevent it applying to a thumper or packhunter (a fear of ANet's that thumpers will be the meta) and allows the use of a bow, which is known to have a lower DPS than other weapons. 10 seconds allows about 4 pet attacks normally, or about 7 under 33% IAS; a bow likewise gets about 7 attacks under 33% IAS, so the DPS is going to hit a maximum of about 12*14/10 seconds or 16.8 DPS when both pet and archer are under 33% IAS on a non-moving target, at half the energy cost of Enraged Lunge (EL can add 80 damage every 5 seconds for 16 DPS, but doesn't require both to be under 33% IAS to hit this level, and can do so on less BM). It would underperform EL in many instances, but offers energy savings and fewer pet skills (no recharging requirement) and avoids the issue of counters and resetting them. It's not abuseable by dagger/spear/scythe/hammer users trying to cheaply boost DPS. --Epinephrine 16:41, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Erm, this and EL are too different to be compared with each other. As EL is a pet attack skill and this is just a non-atack skill damage boost for you and your pet InfestedHydralisk  [[image:Shadow_Prison.jpg|19px]] 12:49, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Not true - you must compare different types of skills, it's how the game is balanced - if not degen might completely outclass damage, or vice versa. Also, both serve the same role, pure damage from a pet build.  One delivers the damage in a pulse, the other over time, they have differing efficiencies and all that, but essentially they are comparable, in that both require a pet to function, both require investing in the same attribute, both are elite, both are only adding damage. --Epinephrine 14:54, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

First off rangers already got Expertise so energy isn't a problem. Then this signets recharge sucks plus it disables all skills. I suggest taking reducing recharge to like 20 seconds and getting rid of the disable skill part. Antiarchangel 06:39, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I would keep the disable skill part, and change it to something like this, due to, again, the fact that rangers have energy management so they dont have energy problems: All your non-attack skills are disabled for X seconds. For 30 seconds, your next X bow attacks deal +X damage. That way, rangers are getting more of what they can use better.--68.193.12.177 18:16, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Or they could make it a Marksmanship skill...Nicky Silverstar 07:49, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Utter thrash. Rework skill: "Your normal attacks (non-skill ones) deal -xy..yy damage on nearby foes, normal damage on foes in the area, +xy..xy more damage on foes outside area range, and +zx..zz damage to foes outside earshot range." Adjust stats to make it worthwile taking. Seriously, the game needs FUN and effective skills badly. Enough of generic skills. With this skill you can actually feel like an archer, avoiding close combat and shooting from the distance. Edit this, to give +dmg instead of +% of dmg; the logic behind is that velocity of arrows would penetrate armor. Servant of Kali 13:31, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That would be just as useless as this already is. Moreso, in fact. Arshay Duskbrow 22:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * How exactly would it be useless with correctly adjusted damage? It's VoS-like skill on Dervish just more interesting. You don't have to use it, I will. At least someone will. The way Archer's Signet is, you can boost it 3x as much as it's still gonna be crap. Servant of Kali 10:15, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Because all someone has to do it run towards you to screw over your damage, and what are you going to do? Cripple them then move farther away? The effects should be reversed, if anything. Let it do more damage the closer you are. Makes more sense, more useful, and it would give Shortbows a boost as well. Arshay Duskbrow 03:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It doesn't make more sense. Arrows gain velocity. It would make more sense if the skill was called "Crossbowmans Signet". You're obviously thinking about 1v1 guild scrimmage when saying this suggestion is bad. I can still think of PvP situations where it would be totally cool. And if someone goes to you, no problem, really, you act as a good diversion for team squishes and other stuff. That's the whole point of this skill - with my suggestion it becomes strategic but tricky to use. If people like you use it, it will be totally useless. If people like me use it, it will be very strong. The game badly lacks tactical skills, and whenever I suggest some there's always someone with "I can't use properly skill with such bonuses so it's bad". So what, not everyone can use Diversion properly either, it doesn't mean it's a bad skill. Besides, not every skill needs to be good for every PvP arena, I couldn't care less for HA for instance. If there's a skill good in at least one PvP arena (not counting HB) - the skill is worthwile of existing. Besides, it's still going to be better than Prepared Shot you're using on your ranger.Servant of Kali 10:40, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If you think that, you obviously haven't used Prepared. Think of it as a Dragon Slash for Rangers, but without having to build up a lot of energy to use it beforehand. It synergizes perfectly with all energy-cost skills, and allows me to spam Concussion, Savage, Pin Down, Needling, etc., basically anything I want any time I want or need to. I can even cast a spell or two from a secondary if I feel like it. In long, sustained fights keeping the energy flowing as Prepared does is invaluable. That ability, that utility is much, much more useful than using your elite slot to get nothing but some extra damage on a Ranger. Oh, and assuming that just because I don't like your idea "people like me" are inferior to your amazing strategic skills and can't grasp your level of tactics, is highly amusing. Arshay Duskbrow 20:43, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, exactly that. If you liked my idea, you would recognize strategical and tactical genius :) Servant of Kali 21:57, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Arshay Duskbrow > You. Proven fact.  Also, arrows don't gain velocity unless if they're in free fall in a vacuum (in which case they accelerate at 9.8 m/s towards the earth).  Outside of a vacuum, it reaches a terminal velocity which is going to be less than the initial velocity you can give it on a strong draw.  However, the effects of gravitational acceleration on the total velocity are negligible in the way you use arrows in this game.  Fired straight at a target (or a few degrees above level for realisms sake), they'll lose velocity since they have the force of air resistance acting on them.  So what you'll have is an initial velocity and a deceleration due to air resistance, meaning the final velocity will be less than the initial (initial meaning when it leaves the bow and final meaning when it hits the target).  If you really cared about realism, you'd have a greater contact force at closer range and less at more distant ranges since momentum is mass x velocity.  Know your physics before you make such assertions. - Anon
 * Suggestion: "For 24 seconds, your arrows travel 2x faster, deal +X..X damage, your bow attacks recharge X..X% faster, and you have +2 Marksmanship." 2 Second Activation time, 25 second recharge. 74.14.106.67 01:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Suggestion: Keep it pretty much as it is now, but in addition to having it your next x attack skills cost no energy, make it so your next x attack skills activate twice as fast. I.e. IAS for a few skills.
 * My suggestion: 1 second cast, recharge 30, remove skill disable, move to Marks.--Atlas Oranos 12:12, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill works like it is supposed to, 2 second casts are attractive targets for interrupting, but work if you're careful. My only gripe with this skill is the recharge compared to how many bow attacks you get out of it.  Even if you wait and use Concussion Shot every time Concussion Shot recharges you still have around 10-15 seconds of downtime, plus waiting for Concussion Shot and using that as your only bow attack for 30-35 seconds isn't something you'd do in the first place.  So assuming you use other attacks, you'll likely burn up those 6-7 attacks in around 10-20 seconds, which leaves about 25-35 seconds of downtime on a recharging elite slot. Which is too long in my opinion, especially if you compare it with the utility of Prepared Shot or Melandru's Shot. - Anon

Really, I don't see the point in even touching on this skill. It works for attack spamming, but if you have Expertise that high, wouldn't you be using a Marksmanship elite for reduced Energy? NeonCrusader 17:29, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This might possibly get use with the new Lotus Strike. Probably won't be FotW, but atleast might be usable. --Deathwing 09:28, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I have trouble spamming 5 energy attacks with this even at high expertise.
 * The idea of this is basically 'your attack skills are not affected by Expertise anymore but recharge 75% faster instead'. So no, you can't really spam 5E skills just like you can't spam Flare and not run out of energy (not like you'd want to). GW:EN will bring Lotus Strike that can potentially work very well with it, and Body Shot if somehow you can keep Cracked Armor on a foe (it'd have 2s cool, so basically you can use it every attack, and net you 4-5E if target foe has CA). The thing is, this skill allows for potentially extremely powerful combos and as such needs to be kinda really expensive. I mean, 2s recharge Bull's Strike, DShot and Debilitating Shot are the kind of skills that can get really out of control if they become spammable. And energy support can come from an external source, and i'm not sure you'd want some abusive builds with something like a P/N with BiP making 2 Rangers throw Debilitating-DShot continuously without a pause. That would wreck your backline very, very fast. Patccmoi 14:47, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * How would it work to lessen both effects, so that it doesn't completely nullify Expertise, but only does around 50% recharge? skaspaakssa 14:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I dunno, seems like a bad QZ that only affects yourself. Not necessarily a bad idea, but not sure it would make the skill see much more play. Patccmoi 15:41, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Suggestion: "For 48 seconds, your pet and bow attacks recharge 50% faster." 74.14.106.67 01:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Too situational. Pet attacks already have pretty short recharges, and, most of the time, there's only room for one or two pet attacks as it is, and most Beastmasters will want Enraged Lunge. The bow people will just use Glass Arrows or Burning Arrow. I'd suggest lowering the additional energy burden to something like +25% of the base energy cost of a skill if you want this to see some use, although even that's not that powerful, considering how few non-elite attack skills with exceptionally long recharge times exist. - Vermain 02:01, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The energy costs on this one make it so that we have to use skills affected by expertise. While useful, it can only be used effectively with certain skill sets due to various recharge times on skills and energy costs.  I'd like to see something that could be used more effectively with a greater variety of skills. - Anon
 * Sadly I find that the only real use for this is d-shot on 15 expertise on crazy short recharge time. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 04:10, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
 * it makes d-shot on 2.5 second cooldown. The problem is affording the 5 energy... (3 pips = 1 energy per second = 5 seconds for a d-shot anyway...) It needs to make the skills cost less than 150% more (maybe 30%-50% more). --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 04:14, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

This skill is inferior to other 10 energy cost Bow Attacks. Low damage if unblocked. Other skills punish blockers better. Poor skill in PvP, not enough good situations to use in PvE either. I suggest the following improvements. Reduce Energy cost to 5. Increase damage when unblocked to the same amount as Power Shot, Point Blank Shot, etc. Lower AoE damage on block and cause a Condition as well, such as Bleeding or Cripple. Make the AoE unconditional - doesn't require a block, and no +3...13 bonus damage. AoE should affect target as well or change description to "If you fail to hit, all foes adjacent to your target take xx damage".
 * The main problem with this skill as I see it is that the on-block damage doesn't actually affect the blocking target. If this did the 65 armor-ignoring damage to the blocker them self plus what it already does, that would be a useful skill. Arshay Duskbrow 05:16, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Gotta agree. I'd even make it cause a condition on the blocking foe. For example 'If Splinter Shot is blocked, target foe starts bleeding for x..y seconds and all adjacent foes (including target) take 5..41..50 damage'. Then it would be great against blockers even if they're alone, and simply better if there's other people around. Patccmoi 14:55, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Could this mean a change is in store for Splinter Shot? Screenshot The icon is different, but it's linked to Marksmanship. --Heelz 10:51, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The one in the pciture might get some use in barrage builds it looks kinda cool. The current one sucks beyond beliefthe condition doesn't hit the foe you want it to - the blocked - and who's to say someone who is blocking, which is a fairly rare feature in pve, will be adjacent to one or more foes making this skill almost NEVER trigger when I bring it. The one in the picture is nice because I guess it does what splinter weapon does which is a nice effect to have on a bow attack. BTW just though I should mention I've seen destroyers use that new splinter arrow in the picture which I imagine they shouldn't be doing :P. 58.110.141.203 09:31, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The one in the picture is (as of right now) a monster skill. It'll never get used on Barrage bars, just like Suicide Health will never be on any Toucher bars. 71.179.85.164 21:23, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Suggestion: If Splinter Shot hits, you deal +3...13...15 damage. If target foe is adjacent to an ally, all foes adjacent to your target take 5...53...65 damage. 87.189.197.171 22:43, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Just look at the talk page and you'll see what needs to be said about this skill... Like with the previous post, it needs a change if it's going to see any real use at all. 76.174.13.77 12:12, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Was always kind weak compared to apply poison, but now is really pointless with Poison Tip Signet taking it's place of a non-prep poison delivery skill. Having it deal +damage to poisoned targets has been suggested, though I'd be open to whatever. - HeWhoIsPale 14:09, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * My suggestion XD. A simple damage buff would help this alot, maybe at the cost of a slightly lower duration. I was thinking of 5...20 (at a scale of 0...15) bonus damage, duration 1...15 (same scale), keep the current cost and recharge.
 * Condition Removal doesn't recharge quickly enough (nor can people be bothered to remove it so quickly the whole time), so people who spam it in between their interrupts, might actually put some pressure on an enemy team. Basically it'd be a Barrage, focussed on one target. Instead of the possibility of hitting up to 7 targets, you have degen and bonus damage on one target.
 * Combine it with Barbed Arrows, and you've got a very interesting pressure combo (which may make people stop whining about low bow damage ;) ) Saph 15:56, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This + Barbed Arrows is pretty fun to spread conditions around. Can keep 7 degen on everyone in RA, which gives ya 56 dps from degen. I don't know. Currently at 50 hours with only 3 hours of sleep. I'm doing good :) --Deathwing 19:01, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Poison Arrow + Barbed Arrows utterly fails in comparison to Burning Arrow and Apply Poison, to further bury PA + Barbed Screaming Shot stacks with BA + Apply. --Pork soldier 03:08, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The idea of bonus damage against a poisoned foe sounds awesome... lets you apply some nice DPS against a single target, and gives you a reason to pack this skill along instead of Apply Poison or Poison Tip Signet. Simply poisoning a foe isn't worthy of an Elite slot, as it is. -- Jioruji Derako.> 03:20, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * @ Pork Soldier: It won't fail. Spamming Poison Arrow on one target, will actually give more DPS (if there'd be bonus damage). Burning Arrow only has +23 damage (at least, on my bar), every 6-7 seconds, with 4 seconds of burning (which hardly helps, since if you've already used Screaming Shot, it would have reached the degen cap. Spamming Poison Arrow in the way I suggested, would give it armor ignoring damage, every 2,5 seconds, sacrificing 3 degen for that.. BUT, you'll only need 2 skill slots, as opposed to Burning Arrow + Screaming + Apply Poison, not to mention the lower cost. Saph 13:18, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * With Apply, BA and Screaming you can power through regen on a target, that's all. You don't have access to the same level of degen stacking with Poison Arrow, thus the other combo is better because it scores kills in more situations. --Pork soldier 11:32, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * But: Apply, BA and Screaming = 3 skills. Poison Arrow + Barbed = 2 skills. you could pack Keen Arrow for all I know, in the slot that you're saving.Saph 11:48, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I fail to see how you're saving a slot when you're packing barbed arrows + poison arrow, you're failing to include burning. --Tankity tank 11:59, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You DO know there's a degen cap, right? Poison Arrow + Barbed = constant 7 degen; Burning Arrow + Screaming Shot + Apply Poison = 14 degen but capped at 10 (and who the heck brings regen skills anyways? Shield of Regen and Troll Unguent are the only regen skills brought, and if you don't know what to do when someone uses them... and please don't tell me you actually try to kill someone with SoR on him... You're failing at knowing game mechanics. And let's lose the hostile tone here, and actually try to be constructive here. Why would you guys NOT want to see a crappy elite buffed? Even if it'd be useless in your opinion with my suggestion, at least make yourself useful by suggesting something else. (PS: Oh, and please don't screw up the text order here, I fixed it for you) Saph 13:44, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Anyone who uses this with barbed doesn't know what they're doing. Simple. Apply burning is better. done? kk. This sucks. Sword.wind. 23:43, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That's why we're discussing how to buff this skill... if you're going to bash something anyways, at least be useful. I've already explained how PA + Barbed could be more effective, but since it'd be spammed, it's more fragile. Don't just bash skills here because they suck right now, suggest how you would change them. Or just stay out >.> Saph 10:03, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Why not just make it apply both bleeding and poison? Would allow a single ranger to do a fair amount of pressure with it, but it still wouldn't be that great because of the presence of Apply + Screaming + Burning --Aarin 03:17, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Lmao at comparing 3 skills to 1. --Deathwing 11:57, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The best suggestion is to give it a small (or maybe medium!) bonus damage as mentioned above. That would be a very nice update. 76.64.59.41 05:50, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the point of comparing 3 skills to 1 was to show that you can stack those skills, if you choose Poison Arrow you lose the ability to inflict all 3 conditions. --Tankity Tank 09:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * How about:[[Image:Poison Arrow.jpg|25px]]Elite Bow Attack. If Poison Arrow hits, your target becomes Poisoned for seconds.If target is already Poisoned you strike for  + damage. ~ Kurd [[Image:User Kurd sig.png]] 09:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's an elite bow attack. I'd make the damage something more like + damage. The damage can still be negated by taking off the condition, and it's an elite that has to compete with Apply Poison, which poisons people for 'free' and has the added utility of instantly covering other conditions Patccmoi 15:29, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd like the skill if it was something like burning arrow, but causing poison and some extra damage. Also the way you worded that skill makes it seem like the bonus damaged is guaranteed because the target will be poisoned first.
 * Just make it a Poison version of Burning Arrow or something. Shendaar 16:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

That's the point: you weren't discusing how to buff it, you were saying how it was powerful. it isn't. It needs a damage bonus, in the least. "stay out?". Sword.wind. 05:05, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You're still not being useful in this discussion, whereas it was my idea in the first place to give it the damage bonus to poisoned foes. See 2nd 'post' in this skill's note. I still stand by my suggestion, and I would like you to get out of here if you're planning on wasting even more text space on this stupid discussion about who's doing what here, it's obvious that you aren't any help at all. Prove me wrong by giving suggestions! Saph 22:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Careful, you're straying into personal attack territory ... -- Gordon Ecker 23:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe I am, but that doesn't get rid of my point... it's not against him, it's just that he's not helping at all, which was the point of this entire page in the first place: how to improve subpar skills. It's already a fact that it's subpar, there's no need to say that again, without even giving a suggestion on how to fix it. Just like I'm trying to defend my earlier statement, this discussion right now is just a waste of time and space. So let's get back on how to improve this skill...? Saph 12:13, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Let's not forget, this is an Elite Bow Attack in Wilderness Survival. Keeping that in mind, a lot of Rangers focused on damage are going to spec more of their points into Marks and Expertise... most people won't even hit the top ranks of the bonus damage, if this skill gets that. The bonus damage can scale a little aggressively with that in mind; more points in WS will result in less with Marks and/or Expertise, so super-high DPS will be at the cost of efficiency and whatnot. Makes for a nice balance right off the bat with that. -- Jioruji Derako.> 07:17, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

It might have just been me (i rarely get on here till later at night), but it seemed like you were arguing that the skill was infact not underpowered- but comparable to Burning Arrow and apply when you use it with barbed arrows. Which it isn't- thus making my seemingly useless statement an arguement against this skill being good. Making it give bonus damage to an already poisoned foe is not helpful: this is a condition spam skill, and unless you buff it up to insane damage bonus, it will always be one. As I said earlier, it just needs straight up bow damage...maybe "moves faster than usual" too. Sword.wind. 01:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Very disappointed that this skill was not buffed with the obvious buff it needed in the last update (that being a simple +X..X damage). 74.14.106.67 01:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, drop the poison duration down a bit, increase the recharge to something a bit longer than poison tip signet (so as not to render poison tip signet worse off), and drop the elite status. Or keep the elite status and add at least +15 damage to it, and/or make it unblockable.  I suppose you could give it a conditional boost, like Melandru's Shot.  Or perhaps make it cause bleeding as well.  The reason you don't see this being used is because apply poison is more effective at spreading around poisoning.  So for this to be a viable elite, it needs to be able to compete with other elite bow skills since we can combine something like prepared shot and apply poison and still be able to spread poison around more effectively with the added benefit of having an elite bow attack with nifty effects, unlike with poison arrow which just poisons (there is the benefit to having a non-elite prep, but in most ranger's opinions that benefit isn't as good as having an elite bow attack with nifty effects). --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:74.14.106.67.

This skill is basically a lost cause - the only reasons to spec into Wilderness as a bow ranger are troll unguent and natural stride, and then I don't see why you'd ever go above about ~9-10 in Wilderness. As a trapper you'd be a total idiot to give up an elite trap for P.A. The real problem here is that poison can't compete against Burning, Blind, Deep Wound or Cracked Armor - ever. Burning is the only worthwhile degen condition and only because of it's compressed damage over time. The longer the duration of your condition the more likely your target is to remove it and ruin your damage/energy efficiency. The real problem with this skill is that degen conditions suck, they're too easily removed compared to degen hexes and they don't do a damn thing compared to Blind, Deep Wound, Dazed or Cracked Armor. If you want to kill someone you stick a deep wound, cracked armor, or dazed on them - you don't barbed arrows + poison arrow and chase them for a year (well, you could, but that would be stupid). If you want to shut them down you use blind or hexes or dazed. The utility of poison is as a cover for other conditions, as a single condition it sucks. And as a single-shot single-target poison application this skill is a terrible choice.

IMO, if you want to be better at the game then write Poison Arrow off forever and stop worrying about how to fix it as an elite - the game has moved on from the Ascalon Arena and this isn't a viable skill any more. If PA were a non elite bow attack that did bonus damage and required people to spec into wilderness then it might be useful, but with Apply in the game still wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole. --Tankity Tank 09:15, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Except this is a discussion about how to make an existing elite viable................ - Anon
 * So make it non elite and you're done. Then it still sucks but you're closer to something useful. No elite is worth bringing just to poison someone. --Tankity Tank 02:07, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * What about adding bleeding? -- Gordon Ecker 02:47, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Unblockable, with scaling damage(nothing ridiculous, higher damage for a longer recharge if its over 15).--Atlas Oranos 13:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Poison Tip Signet is a better choice and is not elite. :> 3 October 2007
 * Poison Arrow -> Elite Bow Attack. If Poison Arrow hits, your target becomes diseased for 5-17-20 Seconds. Or if the Poison vs Disease thing is really bugging you. Poison Arrow -> Elite Bow Attack. If Poison Arrow hits, your target and any adjacent foes becomes poisoned for 5-17-20seconds. Raise energy cost and recharge accordingly. The only problem with the second one is that the it's usefulness would be limited to 1) bunching the other team up in a choke(which promotes position play which isn't all bad actually). 2) Potential abuse during VoD (see splinter weapon), then again with Splinter weapon making stuff go boom so hard already, will the poison even have time to do much?-Jaen 00:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Why exactly is this skill "easily interruptible", again? 76.64.186.175 21:31, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Wrong place. You want the UNDERpowered section. Done25 21:34, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Poison arrow + barbed arrows = easy 7 degen spam. I'd actualy swap a few things. make poson arrow barbed arrow and put bleeding, make apply poison easy interuptable and barbed arrows not. I agree this skill seems underpowered but together with poison arrow the that can be spreaded is more dps then a generic air ele.84.192.118.21 08:31, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Wrong place. You want the UNDERpowered section. --Tankity Tank 01:01, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

This skill needs to not be easily interruptable, it's the only condition spreading prep that is. --Pork soldier 03:08, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, it's enough that it needs to be reapplied more often than Apply Poison. Also, it's one of the few non-traps that is easily interrupted and with no really good reason. --Heelz 04:47, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I suppose it's easily interruptible because of the 5e cost. So... 10e cost, 24 sec duration, 12 recharge, would be fine. A bit cheaper than Apply Poison, but -1 pip of degen, would seem ok to me. Saph 11:01, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, it costs 10e. --Heelz 22:48, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Whoops, my mistake, always thought it was 5e, I've never used it anyways... it's easily interruptible, has less degen and doesn't last as long. Oh wait, that's what we're trying to fix here, oh silly me. Saph 09:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It needs to say easily interruptible because there exists an elite skill called Melandru's Arrows. Making this normally interruptible would render that elite even more useless than it currently is.
 * You don't base this on an even worse skill, thats why everything sucks so much in the first place. --67.159.44.88 14:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Then buff Melandru's Arrows as well. One skill shouldn't be crappy because there's another elite that's also crappy, just slightly better. 76.64.186.175 18:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Melandru's Arrows is almost fine as it is. They just need to up the duration. Just like with Way of the Assassin. Its a fine skill but re-applying often is a pain.
 * Melandru's + dual shot does a boatload of damage to an enchanted target (read: everyone), Melandru's is fine - this skill really isn't. If I want bleed I bring Melandru's, I've never once put Barbed Arrows on my bar and I don't think I ever will. --Pork soldier 19:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * And why does Melandru's work somewhat well with Dual Shot? Because of the Bonus damage, something this skill doesn't even have, making the comparison a rather poor one. The "easily interruptible" part really needs to be removed. 76.64.186.175 03:12, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you just restated my point, read it again please. --Pork soldier 15:25, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That was the point, I believe. 76.64.59.41 05:51, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The reason this skill is easy interuptable is if you use this skill on a posin arrow ranger u can keep up bleeding and poison on an entire team, wich would have the same effect like standing with your entire team in lava wich strains monks alot. U could use screaming shot and apply poison for this extent however screaming shot has to be fired from ithin earshot in order to put bleeding and its 10 energy wich makes it sort of energy intensive. If this skill wasn 't easy interuptable every gvg and ha team would have a ranger just spamming poison arrow with this prep. Something even an RC wouldn 't be able to keep up with since poison arrow will cost no or 1 energy for this ranger (high expertise and a zealous bow). Only the preperation would cost some energy. The only reason this prep is to be used over apply poison if it where to be combined with poison arrow to spread a huge ammount of degen. I know it looks weird if ou only look at this skill and compare it with apply poison, but if u think poison arrow with this skill you see the reason this skill is made easy interuptable.84.192.118.21 10:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I highly doubt it would get used that much. Spreading poison is already easy with Apply Poison, and the bleeding isn't a huge amount of degen. Burning Arrow is less spammable, but causes more degen, and thus, more damage; more damage equals more kills. What better way to keep a Monk busy then to kill them? -7 degen on everyone in range is potent, yes, but considering that most players bring a self-heal or condition removal, the Monk is really only going to need to heal a few players. Paragons use Remedy Signet; 'Sins use Feigned Neutrality; opposing Rangers normally carry Mending Touch, and maybe Troll Unguent; and so on. The problem with a Poison Arrow/Barbed Arrows Ranger would be, it's a one-trick pony. Al your shots cause no bonus damage, and easily removable conditions. Once the foe figures out how to deal with the degen, they can ignore you plinking away for 20 damage every so often. With Barbed as it is, 20-ish seconds into the fight, you're going to need to re-cast Barbed, and anyone with a wand or bow is going to say no to that plan. Then you're stuck With Poison Arrow, which is also on this page for the same reason. -- Jioruji Derako.> 07:10, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, it'd just promote the use of an RC prot instead of an SoD, especially with the Guardian buff. Saph 23:13, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Wrong. Apply Poison is used for its superior duration, not being easily interrupted, and the additional pip of degen that Poison provides. If this duration was increased to that of Apply Poison and the "easily interruptible" part was removed, as well as having Poison Arrow receive a much needed buff (+damage wise), the combination would see much more use. I am deeply disappointed, however, that this skill was not buffed in the last update. 74.14.106.67 01:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Please buff this tot he exact same stats as apply poison except with bleeding, I want a viable reason to run dual ranger builds again, even if only in TA where RC will never appear. --65.40.127.36 17:48, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

As far as the combination of poison and bleeding necessitating one of the preps be inferior, it seems odd to me that poison, which causes -4 pips would outclass a skill that causes only -3 pips. If anything, it seems as though the two should be switched. Having that much degen running across multiple targets is a valid tactic. I agree it shouldn't be as easy as applying Barbed Arrows and then firing off Poison Arrow on everyone, or even using Poison Tipped Signet repeatedly, but that's where we are; it's the nature of the game, and it's ridiculous to punish one of these skills simply because of a lack of foresight into its combined use. I feel like part of this could be solved by splitting the two apart, and placing Barbed Arrows into Marksmanship and changing its functionality slightly. Change it so that targets within earshot are affected, or make the length of time a target bleeds based on the distance from the user: adjacent, nearby and in the area: 17 seconds, earshot: 14 seconds, beyond: 6 seconds. Or something of that nature. I feel like there are some options here, although not many given the nature of the skill. --Reklaw 09:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Even if barbed arrows were buffed, barbed + poison would still not be that great in GvG. In order to keep poison/bleed on everyone you must spam poison arrow. The problem here is two fold. 1) Spamming poison arrow means you're interrupting effectiveness is reduced slightly, leading to a decrease in utility of the bar which is bad. 2) Much more importantly, any decent ranger or mesmer will just laugh at your attempt to spam a skill on recharge. -Jaen 00:33, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Add Bleeding for 5-22 secs, Increase recharge to 6 secs. 15 cost. I like for Warriors they added Bleeding to Crippling Slash, think it is cool cause it covers the crippling up. It also elminates a spot on your bar if your degen based. Think they should change Cruel Spear also and add bleeding and increase adrenaline to 8 hits. Just sharing my ideas, sorry. ashesfalldown 11/16/07 *Edited 11/17/07*


 * Cripshot is not underpowered. Antiarchangel 03:40, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, it isn't. But i guess he means in pve. --Cursed Angel 15:24, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I thought it was funny that cripshot (#1 ranger elite, at least in gvg) would be thought of as underpowered. 76.102.172.202 08:31, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Its BA v Crip Shot for #1 ranger elite. Spamming cripple + poison v burn + poison + 23 damage. Prokiller88 02:09, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm putting this under here since the Barbed Arrows discussion is leading to this skill's underpoweredness, might as well suggest some fixes for this elite here. "Elite Preparation. For 18 seconds, whenever your arrows hit, they cause Bleeding for 3...21...25 seconds, and if they hit a target who is under an Enchantment, they do +8...24...28 damage." My suggestion would be to turn the benefits of this skill. it deals the current bonus damage unconditionally, and causes Bleeding when hitting an enchanted foe. Keeping the short duration wouldn't give it an edge over Glass Arrows, who would have less bonus damage, and located in a different attribute. This way, we can easily buff Barbed Arrows without worrying about this skill. Saph 13:49, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * IMHO, since Nightfall release there has been no compelling reason to run a Melandru's ranger in any kind of PvP - BA just blows Melandru's out of the water. Back around GWFC we used to run a Melandru's ranger and an apply poison thumper in gvg, we did quite well with it (top ~30). Honestly though, there hasn't been any reason to run the Melandru's character since BA + Screaming + Apply arrived on the scene. This skill really could use a boost of some sort if you want to see it in PvP again. --Tankity Tank 13:59, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Not to mention that the vast majority of enchants these days are of the defensive variety, meaning your arrows are unlikely to hit those targets. It was usable in Factions since the condition removal wasn't nearly as extreme as it is now (extinguish and some mend ailments?) and so two rangers could easily keep a team degen'ing to death. Also, Barbed Arrows did not exist back then. --Tensei 19:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, nowadays this skill is just met with "owie, I'm getting hit with extra damage and bleeding! Time to stick another enchantment up under Mystic Regeneration". Maybe a switch in conditions would be viable? Burning would be great, but overpowered most likely. Poison is already too easy to add or deal with. I don't know, it just seems that Bleeding isn't going to hurt all that much, considering that most enchantments are already defensive tools. Getting hit by bonus damage and Bleeding while you have most enchantments on you is still a better option then getting hit for less damage without any enchants active. -- Jioruji Derako.> 19:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Make it do AoE damage like Melandru's Assault. --Deathwing 13:04, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem is that if someone wants to spread degen, they'd use Apply Poison. If the elite is used for the preparation in the metagame elite bar, they'd be unable to use the elite Attack, it being Broad Head, Burning, or Crippling, or even the growing popularity of Escape rangers using Screaming Shot. What must be kept in mind here is that the Ranger bar is extremely tight right now, and Bleeding is much better inflicted through the means of Screaming Shot or even Barbed Arrows (which is already underpowered enough, making Melandru's Arrows even more underpowered). This skill could be changed to something like "for 24 seconds, targets you hit bleed for X..X seconds and deal +X..X damage to enchanted targets. you lose 0..2 conditions each time you attack/your arrows hit". Something along the lines of that would be interesting. 74.14.106.67 01:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think adding condition removal would be a bit too strong InfestedHydralisk  [[image:Shadow_Prison.jpg|19px]] 08:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The condition immunity of The Tree is what makes it broken. You really don't want to add condition removal to a passive attack buff, you'll see the same sort of broken gameplay if you do. --Tankity Tank 09:19, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

and
Skill slots are at a premium, and for almost all Rangers who aren't running a heavily speced BM build, two slots to have a pet along is just not worth it. I propose Charm Animal and Comfort Animal be fused into a single skill, with which you can charm an animal as normal if you do not have one already, bring it if you do have one, and which acts as Comfort Animal when you do have a pet. No other functionality change is needed, just make these two skills one. Arshay Duskbrow 05:00, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Anything that lets you put another skill on a thumper's bar gets a thumbs down. Here's one for you, fuse the two and make it into a new pve skill. Izzy, I'll love you forever if you can give me a PvE Comfort+Charm IMBA ranger skill. --Pork soldier 09:16, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I would personally agree to Charm Animal giving a 6s cast Rez to pet bringing it back at 25% health. This way, you could decide not to bring Comfort, but the cost would be that if your pet dies, you spend as long trying to rez it as trying to rez an ally with a hard rez. This means that if a Thumper brings that and no Comfort, well if their pet is dead, they'll spend a lot of time rezzing it and you can easily interrupt that too. But at least you would have the OPTION to rez with just Charm. Atm being forced to bring a second skill to have even an OPTION to pet rez is kinda dumb imo, and always was. It's like bringing a maintained enchantment with an infinite cooldown that if it gets stripped, you can't reuse it. Would be a kinda stupid concept, just like having a skill to bring a pet but NO way to rez it should it die is kinda dumb. Patccmoi 15:00, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, and I actually had this thought last night after I'd already posted. Let Charm res even at something like 5-10% health with a long cast time. That way it's useless in "high level" PvP, but would still be good in PvE/AB/Aspenwood...places where you can get enough downtime to use it, and since it wouldn't heal a live pet at all, you'd probably still need Comfort. It would just be an option for people who want to take a pet and be able to res it without it eating their skillbar. Arshay Duskbrow 21:47, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It could be a 20sec cast time, for all I care. Just give me the option to resurrect my pet after a battle in PvE, without having to choose between Resurrection Signet and Comfort Animal... -- Jioruji Derako.> 14:07, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "This skill cannot be used if there are foes near your pet('s corpse)." –Ichigo724 14:21, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Or simply make it a 5sec resurrection skill that's easily interrupted... -- Jioruji Derako.> 05:24, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, even a PvE-only skill would do. Let people be able bring a pet just for fun, without it having to spend most of it life dead on the ground. Res and Charm in one skill, that's something I have been hoping for for a long time. just to bring my pet even though he cannot fight at 0 BM.Nicky Silverstar 07:25, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I really don't think giving thumper teams another skill slot is a good idea, even if you allow charm animal to res the pet on an 8s cast and make it easily interruptible. As someone who's played thumper for well over a year I would _love_ to be able to abuse that kind of power, I would absolutely drop comfort animal for call of protection even if I had to hide behind terrain to res my pet for 8 seconds. I strongly suggest that if merging these two skills is even considered that you make that new skill pve only. --Tankity Tank 14:01, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

(reset)I agree with that. Leave the fun for PvE.Nicky Silverstar 19:59, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd be yelling for spikes on those pets nonstop, until my guild told me to shut up and get back to monking. Of course, if the thumpers have to take 6 seconds to res their pet over and over and over again, I don't think I'll have much monking to do =( Pluto 08:37, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

LOL i like how this skill is in both the underpowered section and the overpowered section. It's fine guys. A passive skill giving you a level 20 sword war is not underpowered. Shard 22:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No, it is quite fine. Consider this: if you use this, it requires a massive investment: tons of beast mastery and 3 skill slots rendered unusable (res sig, comfort, charm). Remember- a pet's damage climbs with Beast Mastery.  —ǥȓɩηɔɧ  〚 ₮ /ḉ〛 10:14, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Charm Animal "fix": 10e 10c 0r -> 10e 10c 30r and additionally revives your dead pet. At 10e 10c 30r this does not even begin to unbalance the quick utility of Heal As One (elite) or Comfort Animal. However it does solve the legitimate gripe repeated here and elsewhere about the huge dead weight of needing two skill slots just to get started using a pet. I admit it relatively nerfs Revive Animal, but you could fix that easily, e.g. by 5e 6c 20r -> 5e 3c 20r and making HP Revived be more favorable than the HP revived with the change to Charm Animal. The enhancements recently and with GW:EN to Beast Mastery to make it fun and encourage its use still stumble horribly over this problem of using 2/8ths of your bar just to get started. I primarily play PvE and primarily a Ranger/? (I switch the secondary around for fun) and I just have never found any of the BM builds to be worth it, because of skill bar tightness. Instead I pragmatically often squeeze a 0 BM onto classes that only need 6 slots, using Charm Animal and Disrupting Lunge. Sensible, but certainly *not* "Ranger, Master of Beasts!" fun, eh? P.S.: I really am not a PvP person, but I can't see how a "free (slot)" 10c time to bring your pet back to life is going to unbalance anything. In fact, at 10c, I imagine you could erase (some or all) pet DP and still be within balance. Crystalion 22:45, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * We could combine these two by having the energy cost of the combined skill to something like 10-15 energy with a long enough recharge to balance it's use in PvP. I imagine something like an 8 second recharge would be sufficient.  Making the casting time be long might be a good idea, but then you couldn't really use it for pet healing (but I think that a simple res would be good enough).  That way you won't see people in PvP taking it without a price and the PvE people would generally be able to res after a fight had ended. That 2 skills are automatically eaten up by default to even HAVE a pet is very, very unattractive in PvE and is the specific reason why many rangers don't take pets with them or even dabble into beast mastery.  It simply is too costly to take along, this would help with that. - Anon

Well, if the black out timer on death added with changing the skill to 20E 11C 1R (The Cost of the Two skills added together) isn't enough of a penalty to add a 10% max health rez to Charm Animal, you could always just add something like ("and for the next 10 seconds all damage inflicted on Animal Companion is also experienced by it's owner") or something like that to discourage it's use during battle. But I would seriously love to hear Izzy's take on the whole matter. Wolf Darkblade 23:04, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * This is one of those things that people have been asking for a change in for as long as the game went gold. Yet, it will never be changed.  With bar compression being so vital, having Charm Animal sitting there waving, saying, "Remember me?  I do nothing!" doesn't soothe my soul in PvP.  Pets aren't reliable enough as utility attackers (interrupters especially), so that leaves them as pressure attackers.  If you're using a pet, you basically have 4 skill slots to work with, as you have charm animal, comfort animal (neither which I ever WANT to bring) and your rez.  One of the other slots will likely have a self heal in it.  Unguent.  That leaves three slots.  One of those slots, if you're in PvP, will most likely have Otyugh's Cry in it so that your pet will actually be able to land an attack on those pesky backline blockers.  So that's arguably 5 essential slots filled if you plan on brining a pet into PvP.
 * It seems like the whole idea of a pet was just poorly thought out. As was the case after the Prophecies release, a pet isn't providing much for the amount of room it's taking up.  You have to split armor runes, attributes and skill slots to cater to a very minor amount of extra DPS and a MASSIVE loss in utility.  That's unacceptable. --Reklaw 07:25, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Er, your math doesn't quite add up. Charm+Comfort+Res = 3 slots, leaving 5 left over. Minus a slot for unguent = 4 left, not 3. Somehow though, you skip back to the right number when you start talking about Otyugh's Cry. :) [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 07:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Typo. "3" and "4" are right next to one another, after all.  Unguent, Charm, Comfort, OC, Rez = 5.  4 is just the absolute minimum.  Something I didn't point out is that you have to split your atts three ways at the minimum to be able to self heal, unless you want to bring Heal as One, which has a host of problems with build compression and survivability (it's easier to block while casting unguent in a WS build), plus there's the lack of expertise.  BM, Marks, Expertise, WS for a balanced build, plus the appropriate runes, and the unavailable skill slots due to BM sticking its head into your build. --Reklaw 22:52, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

,, , etc. Pet Attacks
If you ask me, I think you guys know that pet attacks are underpowered. That's probably why you stopped making new ones. Nightfall and GW:EN have no chapter specific pet attacks. Right now, there's pretty much two or three usable pet attacks. Enraged Lunge is the only one that doesn't need help. I kind of like Predator's Pounce for its spammable damage and ability to somewhat keep a pet alive. I think Poisonous Bite is used by thumpers sometimes. To people reading this, I ask you this: When was the last time you equipped Melandru's Assault or Scavenger Strike? Or pretty much any other pet attack for that matter. --Heelz 15:33, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The 3 you listed in the title ain't that bad. Bestial Mauling sees use on thumpers. --Deathwing 15:40, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's much more a matter of skill slots and of pure Beastmaster being unviable (MIGHT change with Feral Aggression) than of skills being weak. Melandru's Assault is in fact extremely powerful (iirc it's bugged and the +30 damage is applied both to the attack AND separately in AOE, so your target gets hit for like +90 if enchanted. And even if that bug was fixed, been a long time since i used it, it remains a +55 damage attack on a 5s recharge. With Feral Aggression, this will raise at around +75 on a Beastmaster... that's weak? HOW?). So is Brutal Strike which at 14 Beast deals +66 damage if target is below 50%, again on 5s recharge. Tbh i often felt that many pet attack skills were OVERpowered. I mean, put them on a player and their +damage with low recharge would be extraordinary. The main thing keeping them in check is pets being unreliable as a whole. But with Pet controls and skill like Feral Aggression coming into play, i could easily imagine real Beastmaster builds coming in light, and then they can make use of those powerful Pet attacks. A bar like 'Ferocious Strike-Melandru's Assault-Brutal Strike-Feral Agression-DShot-Charm Animal-Comfort Animal' for example could provide pretty big pressure with your pet doing massive damage while you run around DShotting stuff. If you can somehow skip Rez and fit Othyug's Cry, it would be REALLY scary with all that damage being unblockable and people not wanting so much to use their hex shutdowns or spamming BSurge on a pet Patccmoi 17:16, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I played around with Melandru's Assault actually. It's not a bad skill, I wouldn't go on buffing it at this point. Almost everything is enchanted these days, and AoE damage is quite nice if you're using it somewhere where it's likely to trigger. Scavenger Strike is just bad though, compared to similiar conditional pet attacks. I mostly find those "target knocked down if.." with huge recharge kinda useless. I mean, I'm already short on space, the last thing I need are 20sec recharge pet attacks. Servant of Kali 17:52, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I've found Brutal Strike to be highly effective if spammed along with Enraged Lunge. Arshay Duskbrow 20:44, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yup, most of the time (with other BM skills you need to take) you only have place for two attack skills, and Brutal+Enraged is IMO the best atm. In Prophecies I used Ferocious which worked pretty good and fit in the skillbar. Servant of Kali 22:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I only think Scavenger's Strike needs some damage buff, the rest is good enough InfestedHydralisk  [[image:Shadow_Prison.jpg|19px]] 13:52, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the pet attacks are fine now that Otyugh's Cry prevents blocking. I've run a Beastmaster build before and you can easily do over 100 damage every second hit (and 50 or so damage every other hit) by cycling Enraged/Brutal. Buffing them up might make Beastmasters a bit too powerful, if you ask me. - Vermain 18:32, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Otyugh's Cry is almost essential now on a pure BM. If pet attacks suffer from anything it's the inherit problems BM has with bar compression.  Fitting Cry, a pet IAS, a self heal, rez, charm and comfort onto a bar leaves only 2 skills for the user to play with.  This essentially rules out a condition if you plan on using the pet as your source of unblockable damage, which is very important, imo.  Your only real option is Heal as One and Brutal+Melandru's or something, and that form of the build lacks a lot of defensive versatility.  The pet attacks are fine, it's the flaws in Beast Mastery itself that are hurting the attribute. --Reklaw 09:51, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I have created some non-thumper beast master builds that were actually great, but the death-penalty that was added to pets in PvP awhile ago has rendered them totally useless. The problem for me isn't even that the pets themselves are ineffective in a build, but that they're way more of a nuisance than a benefit in anything but PvE/RA. If you take enough skills to actually keep them alive, your build will totally suck, and if you don't, they'll just get killed again and again, each time much more easily than the last. And then many of your skills rely on the pet being alive. At one point I was running a build with Heal as One, and by the second half I swear to god I was using that skill just to rez it every time the reset was up. 24.11.205.179 22:36, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I've been considering some pet builds lately, and i really got some decent ones, but the main problem is, and always will be, skill slots. I wish that at least, if you had 2+ Beastmasters, you could actually make use of this skill so that only ONE had to carry a rez. Atm this skill is hardly usable at all. It takes longer than many player rez, it's a skill (so no fast cast possibility), and it's NEARBY range which means you basically have to go sit on your pet (which is just ridiculous in most cases. Like if your pet died in a bunch of AOE, chances are if you go rez him for 6s they'll throw them on you too!).


 * So here's what i'd suggest : 10/3/20, Earshot range. This way, you can actually get your pet without going to stand on his corpse, but you still need to be in interrupt range. You actually have a chance to rez many pets at once if there's many. And the cast time isn't such a HUGE burden.


 * I think this would greatly help teams that want to include 2-3 Beastmasters. It could potentially help Thumpers too, ofc, and that's a risk. But then again, you can interrupt it, and Thumpers relying on their pet to activate RaO can be seriously hurt if this gets interrupted too, and so the potential extra skill slot on one Thumper would also be a risk to take. And while you could put it on a /R, raising pets with very low health isn't too good most of the time cause they just die again a few seconds later and stack DP Patccmoi 16:11, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow, I totally forgot this skill even existed. --72.194.109.3 01:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comfort Animal is totally superior to this in every way. Comfort and Charm animal go together well, but this skill does not. Perhaps this skill should be somewhat like Renew Life and heal the entire party when it's used.76.64.193.201 01:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Make it earshot range, 5/1/5 and it MIGHT see use, doubt it, but maybe. --Deathwing 01:04, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * With Earshot and 5/1/5 i'd run 2 Beastmaster with that on one and an extra skill slot on the other rather often. Hell, Thumper teams could have 1 Thumper with that and 2 others with an extra skill slot...


 * This skill seriously needs to be tweeked. Make it 15e 3s 8r Resurrect all allied animal companions within earshot. They come back to life with 10...50% health. The reasoning being that a resurrection skill for pets needs to be lower otherwise you could be standing there not being able to use ~2/3 skills because your pet is dead and you're waiting for the skill to recharge and usually a pet will die within 5 seconds of revival. In PvE pets don't get DP so its hardly a problem, however in PvP they do and this cld be a balance. Earshot range is ideal for any multi person/pet res skill because nearby just doesn't cut it, especially for pets that you can't control where they go so they can't move over another dead animal or die right next to it, also you wouldn't want to be in the front line; being vulnerable for 6s trying to res something in battle...meh. The amount of health a pet is revived at can be lowered to 50% to keep it closer to comfort animal, even though comfort can heal this is a multi ally res and you have monks (hopefully). 15e is reasonable as well, especially without expertise, just a bit higher than comfort but you're also sacrificing the pet heal. 3s is definitely enough time to interrupt it and if it was made into a chant (gasp) you can let mesmers interrupt it as well to make it less of a plm if a team were to run 2 thumpers and let them have 1 extra skill slot :O Seems to be more of a downside if you were to just have 1 person with a res and the others had no pet for...a long time, bye bye RaO.Underwood 09:31, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * As mentioned in numerous places, including the winter talk page, winter seems to be buggy in when the conversion from element ___ to cold takes place, several tests were performed and documented over on the unofficial wiki, so I figured I'd c&p the relevant chunk here.

Scrimmage


 * Winter converts elemental dmg to cold dmg activating matra of frost energy gain/dmg reduction.
 * Winter converts elemental dmg to cold dmg preventing matra of flame from activating energy gain/dmg reduction.
 * Conjure Frost checks for elemental dmg before winter converts it. Does not activate unless weapon is cold dmg regardless of winter.


 * Conjure Flame checks for elemental dmg before winter converts it. Does not activate unless weapon is fire dmg.
 * Conjure Element states "... your attacks strike for an additional X element type damage." If element type weapon is used, Mantra of Element activates twice (once for each dmg source).


 * Winter does convert conjure Element to cold dmg activating mantra of frost energy gain/dmg reduction. (Redundant)

Titans


 * Cold dmg does extra dmg on Titans (from Hell's Precipice) if using cold dmg weapons or spells without winter.
 * Winter does not convert elemental dmg to cold dmg to activate the extra dmg on titans who are weaker to cold dmg, or it converts after titan checks for type of dmg. (conflicting find with scrimmage)

There was also mention of the environmental effect in Rhilon Refuge, but no testing was done by the user so I haven't included it. Just for the record, the user that did the tests was Rcollins779x on the other wiki, I don't want to take credit for his work. I figured underpowered is the best place for this as if the skill is indeed buggy like it seems, then it's definitely underpowered :) Dargon 00:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This skill became useless, revert to previous state. 87.189.240.157 22:09, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

60s recharge has always been nasty on this skill. Seems like an anti-spike skill, could do with shorter duration and shorter recharge. Or just a 30s recharge... Maestro Ed 18:57, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill is horribly underpowered, was in Prophecies and is even more now with much better skills.Servant of Kali 10:40, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It does have a really strong effect, but that doesn't warrant the extremely long recharge. --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 16:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Either it should last longer, or decrease in recharge time, or have another effect along with the bonus armor and chance to block -- Gal Actus [[Image:User Gal Actus sig.gif]] 13:54, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It should have lower recharge, duration is fine. The trend in these stances is making them last shorter and have shorter recharge which is much more useful. See the latest balance on Escape for instance. Servant of Kali 06:59, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep 9 seconds duration, have 20 second recharge?.--Atlas Oranos 12:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The dangerous thing about boosting dryders is that Natural Stride is already extremely good physical defense. If you make Dryders a spammable elemental defense in the same attribute line then bad things happen in small format (4v4 and gvg splits) - these guys become extremely hard to kill because of spammable defense for two types of damage. --Tankity Tank 09:29, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I really wouldn't mind if this just stayed like it is. Or lowering the elemental defense.--Atlas Oranos 17:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The recharge is a little long, but this skill is very potent while it is active. You wouldn't want it any shorter than 45 seconds in my opinion.  I think this one is good as it is if you use something that recharges stances or skills in general.  20 seconds is too short, as then everyone would take it along. - Anon
 * Perhaps a reduction of duration to 5? I really would still take natural stride over this.--Atlas Oranos 13:20, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * IMO, move to no attribute, +40ALvEle, 5 second duration, 20 second recharge. Spikestopper.  If it's overused, reduce to +24ALvEle.  [[Image:User GD Defender sig.png]]| GD Defender  /  contribs 16:03, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I know, this skill was used in vimway, and probably on a pure trapper build here and there, but this skill just doesn't work in a normal group. I think the main problem is the range. You basically need to be stood on top of each other for this skill to even work. I would love to be able to put this on my bar and somewhat support the team with it, but at the moment it is just unreasonable, if people move 2 steps away they are out of range. My suggestion is....
 * 15/2/20 - "Trap. Every 2 seconds for 10 seconds, all adjacent allies are healed for, all nearby allies are healed for , and all allies in the area are healed for . While activating this skill, you are easily interrupted."

This makes the skill a lot more viable in a normal team build, since it will heal a lot of party members, but also has decreased healing potential to make up for the larger range. I don't know, I'd just really like to be able to use this skill. --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 02:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess the animation is a sort of buff. --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 07:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Lol, at least they haven't forgotten it. --Heelz 20:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It looks like the healing area has went up from adjacent to nearby. --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 20:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Just checked on the Isle of the Nameless and... no. =( --Heelz 20:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, at least your teammates will know it's going off. With the previous version, you had to ping it while activating, and hope everyone locked onto the right spot. --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Ĵĩôřũĵĩ Đēŗāķō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  21:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

(Reset indent) It needs to be at least nearby or in the area...standing in adjacent range is asking to get killed by AoE.--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 02:30, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I remember the time when our monks died, nobody had a res and I suddenly became the main healer with my E/R with just this skill...fortunately, the boss we were fighting wasn't too strong. :p 87.210.150.58 07:58, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Not so much underpowered, just not feasable. I agree 15 seconds of blind is absolutely amazing, but is very likely to be removed before it runs out. Also I don't think this should be touch range, this is very bad for a Ranger. Maybe half cast range? I perpose it's changed to something more like....

10 1 15 and seconds of blind.

Any thoughts? I'm sure there is lots of failed logic here xD just trying to make a suggestion, dont kill me... plz... --Lou-Saydus 20:58, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Telescope Throw Dirt: - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 22:08, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think Throw Dirt is as fine as it is InfestedHydralisk  [[image:Shadow_Prison.jpg|19px]] 15:24, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Same here, it's more intended as a get out _____ card. Some warrior comes over and starts smacking you you throw some dirt in his eyes and run away, not some warrior is smacking on your parties warrior, you run into melee range and throw some dirt in his eyes. Dargon 18:15, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think making it 3/4 cast like other touch skills would be enough for now. It's an arena skill, let it stay that way. ~Seef II &lt;☎|→&gt; 04:29, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This is fine. Excellent PvE skill, especially for Hard Mode, and a decent defense in scattered PvP like Aspenwood and AB. Arshay Duskbrow 06:08, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Potent blind infliction skill, but not something to take into GvG I'd imagine; condition removal is fairly common. I can see how it might be a waste of a bar slot in a lot of pvp type situations, mostly due to using it and it being removed thus having a useless skill slot that's recharging. - Anon

I have always liked its interruption on hitting as well as the very reasonable burning it inflicts, but the duration was too short, and it requires investing in Wilderness survival pretty heavily to get any effect, tanking your damage and efficiency. In comparison, Burning Arrow allows damage and burning, without needing to split points off into Wilderness, and because you can more easily raise expertise allows the use of the active interrupts Savage Shot and Distracting Shot. For the skill to be useful it would require a significant duration at a reasonable level of WS, alowing Marksmanship and Expertise to also be reasonable (or at least, that's my impression). The fact that it only ever sees use with Serpent's Quickness in an attempt to get some degree of coverage (and that even then it's not great) suggests that minimally it needs some work on duration/recharge time. I'd guess that aiming for a 9 Expertise and 12 Marksmanship should be feasible with it, so it should have good coverage at about a 12 Wilderness - allowing an 8/11/11 split with minor runes to have a solid coverage without sacrificing their bow damage completely. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:198.103.172.9.
 * The reason I don't take this is because of the duration and the fact that it is an elite preparation. The previous user mentioned that you could take Burning Arrow, a few active interrupts (which are more effective for interrupting than Incendiary Arrows alone), and now that you have freed up your preparation slot, Apply Poison, Kindle Arrows, Read the Wind, etc...  Also, Practiced Stance, Choking Gas, an IAS, and a few active interrupts are better for the sole purpose of having a passive interrupt build.  I would think that if you made the duration just 3-5 seconds longer at 12-16 Wilderness Survival, you'd see many more Rangers wanting to use this skill.  I think adding even just a few seconds to the duration would make this skill much more favorable. - Anon
 * Yup, I'd like more duration. Another thing that would help both Choking Gas and Incendiary Arrows (and if as suggested below, Disrupting Accuracy) builds is the presence of an interrupt-speed attack that charges quickly but doesn't normally interrupt.  Currently I use Needling Shot for this function, since it has a relatively fast activation time.  Something in the vein of a Protector's Strike for a bow would allow this skill to be used as an interrupt with Choking Gas or Incendiary Arrows, combining a fast activation attack with a passive interrupt stance to get a cheap interrupt (but forcing use of the preparation and the investment it represents).  Some underused bow attack could be re-written as (5 [[Image:Tango-energy.png]] ½[[Image:Tango-activation-darker.png]] 7[[Image:Tango-recharge-darker.png]] (or less- fast recharge is important or Savage/Distracting are better)) "If target foe was using a skill this attack strikes for a critical hit, otherwise it deals only 1..13..16 damage".  Such a skill would become a true interupt under Choking Gas, Incendiary Arrows and Disrupting Accuracy, but due to low damage on not hitting a skill activation would be unlikely to become part of an R-spike for example. --The preceding unsigned comment was also added by User:198.103.172.9, also known as Epinephrine, who may one day remember to sign in before posting.
 * the need to cast this over and over again in battle kills it. But burning and interuption in the same preperation is too awsome to be kept up forever, i liek to add this to Heket's Rampage to continiously interupting someone but yes the recharge or duration needs to be fixed. --Cursed Angel 17:37, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

The skill has a few problems; it's interrupt speed is dependant on your attack speed, which isn't fast enough to interrupt 1 second casts even with IAS and it has to be reapplied. Furthermore, the interrupts is applied before the interrupt from any attack skill you might be using so it essentially kicks DShot of your bar. The fact that it can't be kept up is just gravy here. I'd fix the skill by lowering it's recharge (18 seems the best bet), and by allowing it to be used with DShot. Thanks to it's short duration (13@12, and most people won't run more than that) there is still a 7 second downtime. Akirai Annuvil 16:46, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

This needs Serpent's Quickness to have 100% uptime even with 16 Wilderness Survival... It could use a duration buff. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 04:19, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I thought this skill was ok but it's just not any good. Comfort animal heals your pet a lot better than this will and the cast time of this is just too long for a relatively small heal considering the conditions the skill has working against it. On top of the crazy long cast time is the long recharge so you really can't get any good heal use out of it. Everytime I used it I thought it was alright but every time I used it I didn't really need to self heal, it was just novelty. This skill only works when you don't need it, and when you do the long recharge and highly interuptable cast time really let it down. On top of that you have to share it with your pet, which wouldnt be a huge problem if it were more spammable but atm everytime I need a heal for myself the pet gets the health and I'm down 2 seconds with no heal. Needs a buff - and not a pet res, more use as a self heal. 58.110.142.117 05:03, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This doesn't really need to heal the pet imho - pets can be resed MUCH more easily than they can be healed if you are forced to bring comfort as well. When I use this I keep wishing it wouldn't heal the pet, or would heal us both. It's just the most cumbersome heal a ranger can use. ATM it is more worthwhile to have a +5 Troll Unguent than it is to run this skill as a viable heal, and that unguent can be obtained with runes and leftover points. Even when I ran pure beast mastery build this skill was seriously lacking - it needs to heal either both of you, or a MUCH shorter recharge. 58.110.141.203 09:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The heal on this skill is remarkably low as a self heal, and even worse as a heal for your pet. You won't see it on a pure BM's bar, as it can neither rez your pet nor sustain either of you in a fight.  IMO it seems like it was made as a non-elite alternative to Heal as One, which isn't as good as it could be, either.  You could increase the heal of this skill if you spread out the health over time to an increase each second for three seconds and increased the recharge. --Reklaw 09:57, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it should have a 1 second cast, 8 second reset, and have it always heal yourself, but have it only be usable if your pet is alive. 24.11.205.179 20:22, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I put this skill in my bar and I'm using it all the time. It's very much underpowered, but I'd rather not any points from Beast Mastery to Wilderness Survival just for Troll Unguent. I think at very least, it's casting time should be decreased to 1 second. In comparison to Troll Unguent, this provides pretty much the same heal, just all at once. But the problem is that it should be compared against skills like Heal Other. It's a conditional heal that could either heal you or your pet. I think that we should try these specs: 1 sec activation, 3 sec recharge, and up it to 10 energy. If you don't think the skill fits the energy cost (as in, maybe still underpowered?), perhaps add an ability to rez the pet? Jack 04:35, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

What is the point of this skill? Favorable Winds gives +6 and AND lowers your flight time for ALL of your attacks which lets you use Kindle Arrows. Done25 22:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * But Winnowing helps ALL physical attackers, not just archers.[[Image:User Ereanor sig.jpg]]<strong style="color: black;">reanor 00:41, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * But the thing is there are more attackers on the other team in PvE. So it helps them more than you. Done25 01:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ...What? So if I have 8 Rangers in a GvG match for some reason, the other team will always have more attackers...?  Look, spirits are there to control the environment for your own advantage.  If you're entering a PvP match and you know you're carrying a lot of physical attacks on various players, you bring this skill to increase your DPS across your entire party.  I think you're thinking too much like a noob PvE player that just likes to see his ranger deal damage.  Real skillbars are made to carry or support utility. --Reklaw 08:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Errr...I was refering to PvE....my bad. (Fixed) Anyways The thing is Fav Winds gives you +2 damage AND decreases your flight time. Even if it only affects arrows I think Winnowing is a tad bit underpowered in comparison. Done25 21:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Makes a lot more sense then. Travel time isn't direly important in PvE, though.  Monsters don't move around a lot unless you have AoE dealers in your party, so the extra damage benefits your party a great deal if you have a lot of physical attackers in your team build. --Reklaw 19:29, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I know its just that FW Is so much more useful because it allowss a ranger to use a flat bow while Winnowing dosen't do much but add a small amount of DPS to your team. Done25 20:50, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Markmanship in General
All the ranger skills in markmanship practically suck, with the exception of BA, BHA and Barrage. That's it for good markmanship skills really, which is really disappointing. for pvp only BA is viable really. ~Corpselooter, can't be assed signing in. 213.84.164.125 14:35, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Is there a point to this badly thought out post? Done25 22:45, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes. He is suggesting that marksmanship as an attribute is a bit useless. Much like people complain about smiting prayers. Lord of all tyria 17:39, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
 * plx name me more than 5 decent markmanship skills not including BA and Cripshot. 213.84.164.125 20:23, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
 * What? Barrage is good?  It certainly has niche uses but I'd much rather run other elites. - Anon --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:147.226.212.214.

Body Shot, Concussion Shot, Disrupting Shot, Favorable Winds, Forked Arrow, Needling Shot, Rapid Fire, and Sloth Hunter's Shot. Happy? Done25 21:59, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Savage Shot, RTW? - [[Image:User HeWhoIsPale sig.PNG]] HeWhoIsPale 21:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Both of those are outshined. Savage by Disrupting Shot, and RTW by Expert Focus. Done25 21:49, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * So why is it savage on every decent pvp rangers bar then? Lord of all tyria 21:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * B/c they don't have EotN.Done25 21:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * More likely that Savage has 1/3 the recharge, and reliable interrupt is more important than conditional +damage. - [[Image:User HeWhoIsPale sig.PNG]] HeWhoIsPale 21:58, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Savage Shot > Disrupting Shot. Really, there's no contest.  And Read the Wind is far better for interrupting things, which as a ranger, you should nearly always be concerned about.  Notice the word NEARLY.  - Anon
 * Disrupting Shot is more reliable because it stops all skills. And I had not seen the fact the they boosted the recharge from 12->15. (No EotN) Done25 22:01, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "Disrupting Shot is more reliable because it stops all skills." Since when did savage shot not? Lord of all tyria 20:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Savage Shot interrupts all skills, the +damage is the only conditional part. - [[Image:User HeWhoIsPale sig.PNG]] HeWhoIsPale 20:57, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Huh...thats odd. It never stopped a rez sig for me. Maby I'm just unlucky... Done25 21:48, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Use d-shot on res sigs, not savage anyway. Lord of all tyria 21:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It was an example. Anyways now that that is cleared up maby they should buff Disrupting shot by giving it a small disable attribute. Done25 22:08, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Beast Mastery
Attack skills should pulse til pet can get to target, save space on your screen. ashesfalldown 11/16/07
 * Can see from the pet control panel if the pet has an active attack skill waiting to be used. I just wish the pet control panel would stay open while moving between areas. -Taala 14:40, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Beast Mastery has a whole lot more wrong with it than that. --Reklaw 14:50, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed, I think Beast Mastery is the least used Attribute in the game and I would make few builds using it if it was changed a bit and rebalanced. Ashesfalldown 11/17/06
 * I have a great Marksmanship/Beast Mastery hybrid build for Alliance Battles. I really like Beast Mastery and it has its uses (though I agree it is underused). 87.210.150.58 07:54, 18 November 2007 (UTC)


 * LOL @ least used attribute...no not really, play more PvP and you will see InfestedHydralisk  [[image:Shadow_Prison.jpg|19px]] 03:12, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

&
Please update these skills in some way, the energy cost is too high, the damage is too low, the requirement is iffy at best :/ At least, I think they should be 5 energy, and scale the damage with number of conditions (similar to signet of deadly corruption) something like... +2..7..10 damage per condition, capped at whatever value makes it balanced? For scavanger's strike, lowering the energy cost to 5 would suffice in my opinion, however damage should likely be changed as well. Compare Scavenger's strike to Predator's Pounce if you will ^^; Scavenger's deals 1..5 damage more than Predator's, for 5 energy greater cost, and loss of the secondary healing effect, making it completely worthless in comparison. Scavenger's Focus, also needs to be updated in a similar manner. Comparing Scavenger's focus to Glass arrows for ranger primaries, and a Conjure Flame/Lightning/Frost for secondaries, it's simply inferior all-around. Reducing the energy cost to 5, possibly increasing the duration, and increasing the bonus damage, causing it to scale with conditions like Signet of Deadly Corruption does would be much more viable. Thanks in advance... They seem like fun skills for build ideas, they just aren't usable how they are right now 76.174.13.77 12:02, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I am rather happy with the skill as is but I think it wouldn't be a mind breaking buff to lower the energy to 10. As it is it's just not quite worth the energy cost unless you go pure beast and expertise. Done25 23:32, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Needs 1/2 second activation like all other ranger & melee interrupts. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 14:33, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Is that possible? -- Gordon Ecker 01:27, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Dunno, with strenuous testing, I think maybe it could work by having the current auto-attack to end and jump right into d-lunge (like how interrupts work) and if the target isn't being attacked already (like if the pet is running to the target) then it acts as it does currently. The thing is if your pet is not hitting the target what will happen. Currently it acts as a single target Anthem (Chant skill type) that activates on the next hit. That's only usable for 2-3 second skills since anything else is basically going to be missed by the pet's attack rate (it seems to be that of a longbow's 2 second refire). (Reference for the attack speed:http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89491) --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 15:44, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * By the way notice in the guide made by Jenosavel and Epinephrine, d-lunge used to be 5 seconds recharge. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 15:46, 26 December 2007 (UTC)