Feedback talk:User/NuclearVII/Stoning

YEH nerf this, this is just so retarded with ebon hawk ranged spammable KD with quite high dmg. this was supposed to be buff ? anyways this would be "cool" change. Raemon 17:57, 9 October 2009 (UTC) –Jette   19:00, 9 October 2009 (UTC) WUBLEAR     VII  19:04, 9 October 2009(UTC)
 * wat. This is a clear buff, Ebon hawk + stoning sucks bad.
 * Unconditional KD > Conditional KD. WUBLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19px]] [[Image:Tango-heart-icon.png|12px]]   VII  18:26, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Elite mind shock. I like it. Pika Fan 18:30, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's moar like earth gale. It's slightly worse, but that's whay you get for being in earth. WUBLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19px]] [[Image:Tango-heart-icon.png|12px]]   VII  18:51, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I have to say I like the current version. I use it in shitter PvP all the time to great and oft very amusing effect.  I got the HSR to kick in like five times in a row once.  :D  Before Ebon Hawk got buffed it was terribad, but now it's pretty useful.  –Jette [[Image:User_Jette_sophisticated.png|19px]] User Jette tophat.png  18:54, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I have to say that the current combo of Ebon + Stoning is about as powerful as Shatterstone + Vapor Blade.
 * Scrublet power. WUBLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19px]] [[Image:Tango-heart-icon.png|12px]]   VII  18:57, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "shitter PvP"
 * "Scrublet Power"
 * Play MoI/Bsurge and you will find it doesn't take skill to land your projectiles. Hence elite Mind Shock. Pika Fan 01:24, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Damage+KD in a non-elite. Strong stuff. Dark Morphon 12:52, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Projectile KD and bad damage with exhaustion. Okay stuff. NuVII  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] 16:42, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Why do people always try to balance a skill based on other elements? Each elemental tier was supposed to have it's own purposes. I don't think stoning needs to be changed and it's quite balanced in my opinion. Your suggestion sounds like you're saying the kd is useless as u can't time it to break a skill activation. But kd's can also be used as snares, especially when you hit a foe with aoe that causes them to run. I use the ebon hawk and stoning combo in sync w/ ebon vanguard standard of wisdom which yields a constant stream of kd's. You can easily utilize the combo by attacking a monk or primary target to shut them down (take a boss or a monk for example). I use the combo a lot in FA and it works amazingly well. Also, why add exhaustion? It's already a 15e skill to use. [2 notes: 1) I play pve.. pvp is a waste in my opinion because it's impossible to find skill balance. 2) Yes.. I like blocks of text.] Magic  [[Image:User Magic Icon.jpg|19px]] Talk  21:50, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Unconditional KD in a non-elite, plus damage, every 8 seconds, for only 10 energy (less with standard Attunement), is too much. Even with exhaustion. Your suggestion turns it into a Gale with damage. 3 more seconds to recharge? Well since it's being given exhaustion, it won't be spammed anyway, but it can still be used basically whenever spikes are needed. I don't really think that makes up for it. I think Stoning is fine as is. --[ Kyoshi ]::[ Talk ] 22:33, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * @Kyoshi: It's a a projectile. Gale is better, even with damage added to stoning.
 * @Magic: No. Weakness doesn't stick, ever. Read a couple of sections above: Ebon Hawk + Stoning is scrublet power. Please don't make bad, scrubletty comments when the proposal is obviously a PvP change. NuVII  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] 11:46, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Shard Storm is a projectile, and it's one of the most amazing snares you can have on your bar. You can't miss with it unless you suck so bad, which is why I criticize your proposed version as being an elite mind shock. If I had to choose between gale and this, I would pick this any day because I know I won't ever miss with it often enough to even consider otherwise. Pika Fan 12:33, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, but Mind shock is in air (and does about twice the damage this does). So is gale. The only good thing to bring in earth are the wards. You have no blind in earth (except maybe ash blast, which sucks). Now, the damage isn't that high, and I would also argue that bringing the old gale back would be better for the game. Would you still choose some minor damage over an additional second of knockdown? NuVII  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] 12:51, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The old gale is naturally better and superior, fact is, it isn't the old gale, so I still don't see why you even brought that in. It's like saying the old WoH would be balanced if Glimmer was buffed to heal 200 health. Fallacious arguments are fallacious. Pika Fan 13:33, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I meant to say that a revert to old gale would accompany this change. NuVII  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] 13:52, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The point I would have made about the projectile was made by Pika. Anyway, if you intend for another change to accompany this, you should have had it on the page in the first place, or at least make another suggestion page and link these two together. (Or is that against the Feedback rules somehow? Dunno, I don't come here very often.) Anyway, if you intend to change both the skills this way, then I can't really comment, as I haven't played an Elementalist in a while. Stoning is just a skill that I get hit with a lot in FA nowadays, so I've pretty much figured out how balanced it is, which is pretty damn balanced. --[ Kyoshi ]::[ Talk ] 14:29, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Gale is still amazing, you can do almost everything with it, including forcing kills on split(yes, bsurge ganker!). People who can't cope with the nerf should just go back to 123mblast eles. Pika Fan 14:47, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The game would be better with the old gale back. NuVII  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] 15:08, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Can you put a note on the page that it's a PvP change then? thanks in advance. Magic  [[Image:User Magic Icon.jpg|19px]] Talk  21:02, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Stoning was sort of made to have synergy with Ebon Hawk, so it's not that terrible as a combo.--  anguard  21:05, 13 November 2009 (UTC) That is why it's bad. Oh, and weakness is terrible. It's only slightly better than Cracked Armor and Bleeding. NuVII  23:25, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Two skills and 25 energy for a KD. Huh. I'd rather use Earthquake. NuVII  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] 22:45, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Same energy as Earthquake, about the same cast time as Earthquake (including aftercasts) but split between two skills so interrupts can actually be avoided by smart players, and no exhaustion. Also note that Stoning alone deals more damage than Earthquake, and can actually be used in spikes, and besides that can be used about three times as often because of the recharge. Of course it isn't used often because it's not zomgwtfoverpowered, but it's by no means bad. The only advantage Earthquake has over this combo is that it's AoE, and the exhaustion and 3s cast accounts for that. Very balanced skill imho. --[-Kyoshi-]::[-Talk-] 23:21, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't forget that Weakness isn't a bad condition, either.-- User Vanguard VanguardLogo.png anguard  23:23, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * "Two skills and 25 energy for a KD"
 * Oh, and then there is the aftercast, so it's more like 2.75s cast for your combo. Oh, and Earthquake is in the area, which means you'll be hitting for much harder to many other people, so the damage argument is moot. The only thing you have going for you is the recharge, but really, that's not worth two skills slots when you can pack gale and basically get something much more reliable (i.e. Weakness being foul feasted during combo). NuVII  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] 23:28, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Cracked Armor and Weakness are good. Cracked Armor makes spiking through shield sets easy, especially since people stack armor rather than health if possible in PvP nowadays. Pika Fan 23:38, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Then... uhhh... people are baed?
 * Those three conditions are Foul Feast and RC food. In fact, I would try to avoid making a team without needless but "bonus" conditions, just to avoid fueling the enemy warmachine.
 * Weakness is only good when you can apply it every other second, like withering aura or ward of weakness. Other than that... no. CA is potentially good, but where does it come from? Shellshock? What a joke that is... NuVII  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] 23:44, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No, you are. Damage reduction > extra health. The extra 10-15 armor reduces more than 40 damage on a spike, and saves a lot of protting and healing over time. That's what top guilds run. Also, applying weakness just to burn 5 energy on the prot is worth it, fyi. CA is applied by shell shock and sundering weapon. Paraspikes and standard dual ele run those, and are meta.Pika Fan 23:46, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Weakness (and other conditions, btw) doesn't burn energy. FF is free, and it doesn't occupy your backline. A midline necro just eats it away. That's why both Shellshock and sundering weapon are pretty mediocre (okay, maybe not sundering. But shellshock is definitely bad).
 * Oh, and for 3 years it has been Health > Armor. Now, I can't argue if the meta has shifted, but that's the way I've always known the game to be. We can keep arguing which one is what, or we can actually go back to the original topic...? NuVII  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] 23:54, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * FF has a 5 second recharge and is not going to be enough. Your backline is still going to have to remove it sooner or later and it still burns energy. Shell shock is used on spikes, and only on spikes. The way you use it sounds like you are blindly and randomly using it on recharge, and that is bad. If you think that FF is a problem, Weakness should just be used when the opposing team warrior is spiking. Using blind and weakness randomly is never going to get you anywhere.
 * Rebel Rising has been preaching day in and day out that armor mods are better than health mods, people still didn't listen. Just like people thought daggers on anything but assassin was bad until some idiot decided sway needed escape daggers. Pika Fan 00:23, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Earthquake is a 3 second cast actually, which is why I mentioned that I was including approximated aftercast, and so the two spells activate faster, which is what I said. I also mentioned that Earthquake is in the area, but you can only use it one time for every three Ebon Hawk + Stoning, and it would hardly be effective in most PvE (as it's relatively little damage for creatures' health at most times and because of the recharge, and one KD per 18s is not generally useful in PvE as things should be dead by then) and worse in PvP (as things are usually more spread out or ready to Dshot/Pdrain you and because of the recharge, and if they aren't already spread out then they certainly will be once they see you brought Earthquake). Two 1s cast skills are not as easily interrupted, to an intelligent player, and if they don't remove it then you can just use Stoning twice. Any condition is vulnerable to being removed by Foul Feast, that's what it does, and it's pretty popular right now, but that doesn't stop Searing Flames. So adapt: use Epidemic, Fevered Dreams, or Extend Conditions, or reapply it with Enervating Charge, or use Enfeebling Blood (or have your necro use it) and hit whatever the hell you want to. Arcane Echo it, even, in combination with any of these suggestions, and practically keep the your target knocklocked until the condition is removed. Can your precious Gale or Earthquake do that? Sure, if you're okay with greying up your whole energy bar or using Glyph of Energy as your elite. Again, it's not zomgwtfoverpowered and doesn't synergize much with omgwtfoverpowered, and nobody has made a -way that can include it effectively, and that's why people don't use it. Your suggestion is more powerful than Water Trident, which is an elite. This skill is balanced just fine, though I can't speak for Gale as *cough cough* I never see it used, ever. --[-Kyoshi-]::[-Talk-] 00:31, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * @Kyoshi: Nice wall of text. Still ignoring the problem with stoning. Here, lemme type it again: TWO SKILLS FOR 1 KD. Yeah, let's use epidemic and Fevered Dreams (both of which are really great skills) to further a bad combo.
 * @Pika: I'm not going into the "which is better" argument with you. At least not here. If you want to prove how badly wrong I am (shouldn't be so difficult) just do it on my talk page. NuVII  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] 11:44, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately for you, this IS the correct talkpage to go to, and I see no need to argue if the party I am reasoning with is not replying to my arguments. Pika Fan 13:32, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Ehh.. no. If we are going to talk about stoning changes, this is the place to do it. If we want to talk about whether extra health or armor is better, then ether of our talk pages is the place to do it.
 * But you know what? I'll bite.
 * Let's go on with your little assumption: that going entirely extra armor will save 40 health during a spike. Fine, that is a very reasonable estimate, and depending on the type of spike, that number will vary (i.e. with blood spike, it will be 0, with a balanced spike, it will be around 40, and with any other caster spike, around 60). Going entirely extra health (with double fortitude mods, vitae runes and survivor insignia) will net you a whopping 100 health bonus (note that this does not include vitae runes, that may vary according to the runes you'll have to use for your build). Both sides are using conservative estimates.
 * Let's talk spikes first. Which one would you rather have: 40 damage reduction, or 100 extra health?
 * I don't know about you, and don't know about Rebel Rising, but I do know that the monks I played with always, always preferred their teammates to go extra health (from factions onwards, I'll explain in a minute). It made their lives (especially the infusers) much, much more easier. True, in the longer run, an armor set will protect you against more damage. I can't argue against that, but what I'm trying to say is that a guy with more health will have a greater chance of surviving a spike in the first place. There really isn't much you can say or do to dispute that (though you are free to try).
 * Now, let's talk about pressure. Here, armor rules. We always went with extra armor during a good portion of prophecies (though not against smiteballs). Why? Because back in proph, pressure ruled. Spike damage was, compared to post factions and Nightfall, much less prevalent because the best midline spike support you could bring to bear was Lorb. When falling shockers and eurospike became dominant, we had to run extra health; our monks just couldn't react fast enough (they weren't pro monks, but above the average skill level). This trend continued through Nightfall and EotN, most guilds even stopped running major runes to have the best possible defense against spike teams, which made up 90% of the meta. Again, you can't argue against these historical facts.
 * But I digress. Going back to pressure, going for armor mods substantively increases the team's resistance to pressure. So the choice of mods and runes depend on the meta being run. The question then becomes which is more common: Spike or Pressure?
 * With assassins and dervishes running rampant, along with blood spike and mesmer hexes (note that armor only protects you against auto attacks and elemental damage, and not agaisnt degen, hexes, attack skill damage, assassin chains, and mass deep wounds), I'd risk spike, but not having opened OBS in 6 months, I can't really tell from an objective standpoint.
 * Please don't make assumptions about my play style. I don't spam Bsurge on recharge. I don't spam shellshock on recharge. In fact, when asked to spike support, I simply slot LOrb, not shellshock, as LOrb adds more damage. I hit Bsurge when I see a warrior moving up to spike a teammate. In fact, I don't ever remember myself choosing a weakness skill over a blinding one. Blind is simply so much better. Why bother using a skill slot for a decent melee hate skill when you can pack an awesome one? Why choose, say, enervating charge when you can choose Bflash? Energy cost is moot (only using it when the opponent spikes you anyway), and so is the damage. The same applies to other classes: Why choose enfeeble when you can choose Faintheartedness? You're just gimping yourself by packing the less potent skills.
 * Oh, and may I remind you that none of this has anything to do with stoning? NuVII  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] 14:13, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Bleh.. I've concluded you're just ignorant and don't understand how to play. :S "TWO SKILLS FOR 1 KD" Imo, stoning is more there for the damage. The kd is just an extra buff. I and many people agree that this skill is fine like it is.. You can keep wasting your breath.. but it's not going to get changed.. Live with it. : \ Magic  [[Image:User Magic Icon.jpg|19px]] Talk  21:21, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * That's a great idea. Walk away.
 * But lemme get parting shot (or two) in: 1) If you are using stoning for the damage, you are doing it wrong. 2) If you think this is me whining and not "living with it", you have no idea how I can't live with something. This is just me trying to make the game better. 3) Funny thing about majority; usually it's wrong. NuVII  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] 22:36, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I want this to be a skill which summons a boulder from off the map which homes on your target. –Jette [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 02:40, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It's like Meteor but deals Earth damage! In your face, WAH! Vili &#x70B9; [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 02:43, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Firstly, I would like to know where you got the 100 health from. Running armor mods on your armor and having health mods on your spear/shield is the norm. That's only 40 health lesser. When you spike with any build, except for pure spike builds like Rspike, IV etc, you don't expect to get a kill everytime. The idea is to burn as many prots as possible while spiking often. No meta spike build in GvG should ever be clean; you should kite at least 30% of the projectile damage, be on your shield sets the moment you even get looked at. With armor mods, you take lesser damage overall, your infuser has to infuse you less often and use woh more often, your prot does not have to resort to spirit bond to save you everytime. This relieves monks because they can safely cast less expensive skills to mitigate the damage you take. In HA, conditions are rampant that it isn't even funny to say 15 armor on a monk is worse off than 40 health. Leave conditions that don't matter on the prot or infuse, like bleeding, and you suddenly find yourself taking 10 damage per tick of teinai's or take 60 damage from rodgorts. Every spike build contains a condition, be it DW, CA or whatever you care to mention. Even if you are talking about an ele, bring AoR and you have really no reason not to run armor mods, simply because you are no longer as squishy. Health really only matters versus armor ignoring damage like bloodspam, and if you let your teammates' health drop below 20% you are pretty much screwed from the start anyway.
 * The idea of running armor mods is the same as running a prot in the first place, except you don't need energy to use armor mods - damage you do not take is damage you don't have to heal. Damage mitigation is always more powerful, useful, and versatile than health mods in almost every situation you care to mention. That is also the reason why Warriors are more widely used than dervishes or assassins in general.
 * Oh, and for Bsurge eles, you generally run shock arrow or lightning bolt/orb. Shell shock + shock arrow/lbolt = lightning orb + CA. 20 armor reduction is always going to contribute more than 40 damage on a spike anyway(makes frenzied warriors take 100 damage with everything, too).
 * Also, necros in GvG used to run faint AND enfeeble/enfeebling blood, simply because 1/4 cast or AoE weakness shits on warriors when they spike. It's like using bsurge, you really don't spam it. Monks will just clean faintheartedness on spikes simply because you have to cast it way beforehand with PnH/Veil/Spotless Mind, but weakness will still stick on. Weakness is not as good as blind, but it's still useful and powerful in its own right if you know how to use it properly. 68.68.107.24 04:55, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd like to add that, for a spike skill, it still has excellent recharge and casting times (even compared to Lightning Orb). It could have its uses in PvP even without the knock-down effect, against casters. 145.94.74.23 07:38, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

tl;dr
But it's OP. I don't see skillful play come along when UG eles can make at least 1 foe suffer, and let your Hammer War go to someone else. The old Gale was good at the time, but then people discovered many fascinating ways to abuse it, so it had to go. Funny thing that they didn't do that with... any other skill. Anyway, Balanced teams get a damage beefer, and well you can surely find other fascinating ways to abuse it; that's how it is with ranged KD. Titani  Ertan  05:22, 16 November 2009 (UTC)