Talk:Cry of Pain

Skill update
People that complain about the skill changes will need the grow up. This skill was very overpowered in the first place and created discrimination parties who looked for "cryers". Now its brought to a suitable level in PVE. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:84.92.40.98 (talk).
 * PvE skills are suppose to be stronger then regular skills, thats why they can only be used in PvE, i actualy like this update, havnt tried it out yet, but i imagine this and Ether Nightmare can still be used, i mean even without super high rank thats a decent amount of damage as well as 10 health degen C4K3 [[Image:User_C4K3_Signature.jpg]] Talk 11:56, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * yea it was overpowered, but now is useless
 * it's now less useful for *everyone* to run it, but it looks to be still effective on 1-2 bars now --63.246.206.241 13:16, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * well, i dont think the degen is worth the decreased damage -- but i guess its better then nothing C4K3 [[Image:User_C4K3_Signature.jpg]] Talk 08:36, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Remember that it can't be removed by anything other than death :) Paddymew 18:58, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Awesome Combo
Ok...Ive done this math before... but there are several facts to point out with this skill


 * 1: it does not require the investment of any attribute points
 * 2: it can be echo chained
 * 3: each echoed copy can be used twice before echo wears off
 * 4: it requires any mesmer hex of any duration and attribute

Now, i will post the ideal situation for this. Note: This damage would likely be less due to the need for other professions. Anyway...now you will know why Sunspear Skills cant be used in PvP


 * All (8 member Party) both titles max, all E/Mes withCry of Pain, Arcane Echo, Echo, Intensity, and Arcane Mimicry, intensity used on second round on second (Mes/E could not handle energy cost), and fighting tormented creatures...


 * First:
 * 8x140x4=4480


 * Second:
 * 8x140x4x1.25=5600


 * For a Grand Total of:
 * 10,080 armor ignoring damage to all enemies in the area


 * i have some more balanced / DoA group builds somewhere, but this is just the most impressive example that i can think of of this skill. i hope someone uses it

Mesmers CAN handle it. Skip the Mimicry (which is suboptimal anyway) and you'll only need 60 energy. A Focus with "Live for today" solves that quite well. Noctarch 12:25, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

anyway...i do want to bring this skill out into the light as a gread skill that is underused. Beat Gloom HM relatively quickly, though it is more suited to Veil. im kinda sick of hearing people say that the skill is useless... Killer Revan 02:44, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * well done, you're right. thats a useful skill, and i like it. too bad im a n00b interrupter... Zerpha The Improver 17:46, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You don't need to interrupt to trigger the damage. RitualDoll 22:16, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * well, like me, I assume he means he has trouble playing the whole class. I can never time the damn interrupts correctly though I still have fun with energy surge and so on.Coruskane 16:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Anybody else find the progression on this skill odd? Instead of a flat +6 damage/rank, it alternates between 4 and 8. Ayumbhara 00:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Like Necrosis which hasn't the flat 5 but alternating 3 and 7. No one knows...Noctarch 12:16, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Signet of Illusions imho. Euphoracle 01:09, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * If Signet of Illusions was used, with Illusion Magic at 16, how much damage would Cry of Pain do? --Stokoe  [[Image:user stokoe warrior icon.png‎|19px|Talk]] 17:02, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * 100 it can not pass it's maximum. Probebly not because it has not a lineair skill damage like Non-PvE-Only skills Fox007  [[Image:User Fox007 sig.png|User:Fox007]] 17:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Damage is actually 102 at 16 Illusion. This is tested and proven. It follows a 2:5 growth pattern, insinuating that at 18 Illusion, the damage would in fact be 107. I will record my notes why 17 Illusion will not give any benefits on the Illusion page tomorrow. Assume my good faith, but otherwise I might get around to uploading some screenshots of my Signet of Illusions, Summoning, PVE Skill, etc research. However, I need to get some sleep and purchase more consumables.-- Norrukki [[Image:User_Norrukki_SigIcon.png|19px]] 06:51, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I have nothing against Mesmers or Sunspear skills, but this skill needs a serious nerf, and BAD. This skill is a perfect example of Build Wars (that element of Guild Wars which the constant skill nerfs work to avoid). Without this sort of build (by which I mean Cryer) there is essentially no caster which can find a group in the Domain of Anguish. I myself play as a primary Elementalist when I do DoA and I cannot ever get a group because I don't run this build. This build is not a good one due to the high damage capacity; in actuallity, the too-high damage output makes this build unfavorable at best. I am strongly against Cryer builds, and I think that it is this sort of build which needs to be nerfed. They can leave Shadow Form alone now, and they don't even bother with Spiteful Spirit. Now they need to nerf Cry of Pain, Echo, and Arcane Echo. I understand that most players will strongly disagree with me on this point, but it is the simple truth. Cryer builds are Build Wars, and that's all there is to it. If you need to, you can wiki 'Build Wars' on this very site and see for yourself. I am sick of this build. I have used a 2 human, 6 hero team and have done all of DoA before, and there were not any Cryers, Winter Rangers, Perma Sins, SS necros, or anything else very special. I used Sabway without SS and aside from that we had nothing but our favorite heroes and did ALL of DoA. That is the proof anybody needs that says that one may successfully do DoA without Build Wars. I even modified my Sabway build and made each individual hero very different from their original builds. The only (distantly) Build Wars-related thing in our H/H runs was the fact that I had my Sabway necros. We as players don't need Cryers (strictly speaking) and we are, if I may say so, better off without the Cryer builds in the game. You can all spam me if that will make you feel better, but the truth remains that Cryers are a negative area in Guild Wars, and the skill needs a nerf. - Ara the Elegant Ara 03:02, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Echo and Arcane echo don't need nerfes they are both are either good or bad depending on skill used with. Fox007  [[Image:User Fox007 sig2.png|19px|User:Fox007]] 11:36, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Build Wars is building a team to specifically beat another team. All PvE is is build wars.  In fact, Sabway is more build wars than Cryway is, since you're exploiting monsters' autoattacking.  So what you're really complaining about is one cookie-cutter mechanic exploiting PvE steamroller team being better than another.  In which case, suck it the fuck up. --216.241.108.106 12:40, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * WAit...so i invented a new cookie cutter build....then quit the game...i only got one or two runs of this with sort of random teams because no one wanted to try it, and it set records before UB ever came out...Killer Revan 00:48, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * And i just remembeed how much i hated cookie cutter builds...Killer Revan 02:23, 5 April 2009 (UTC)...forgot to log in
 * I think what he is really complaining about are areas that favor one type of build/profession combo so much that people wanting to try a different profession or build can never find a group. It's just like when you had to be BP to do Tombs. It detracts from the game because not all professions are treated equal -- e.g. where is the elite mission/area that favors Ele skills so much that everyone runs an Ele build (or Rit, etc.)? There isn't one, and that's the problem. 69.179.156.18 16:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Kind of ironic since he's a primary elementalist. Now that Cry has been nerfed, I'm sure he'll find plenty of groups again as people go back to using Searing Flames spam instead of Cry spam to get through areas.  Oh well, now I guess my mesmer primary will have to be stuck hero-henching until I lose interest in the game. 68.96.139.241 10:26, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the late response. Anyway, I would not doubt that taking a Sabway group is no better than Cryway, but keep in mind the fact that I merely used Sabway as a base template with which to work.  I modified each of my three Sabway builds, and the other half of the group was not Sabway, but a compilation of my friend's favorite builds (which he made himself).  Sabway would be just as Build Wars as Cry of Pain, if I took the exact same build as anybody else out there running Sabway.  However, I capped my own elites to change each of the three Necro builds, working them over until I was satisfied with how they worked in various PvE circumstances.  And as for, "...suck it the fuck up", what in the world does that mean?  As I said, Sabway is no better than Cryway, but only when you are using a "cookie-cutter" build.  I re-worked my own builds until I felt they worked better.  Disagree with me all you want.  And anyway, I don't like Searing Flames, either.  Just because I'm an Elementalist primary doesn't mean that I like all the common Elementalist Build Wars options.  I purposefully stick to the slightly more rare Elementalist elites (i.e. Ether Renewal, Ether Prodigy, etc.  The skills I don't ever see around).  I am a non-biased eye, insofar as Build Wars is concerned.  As per the new 'nerf' to Cry of Pain, I don't like at all, either.  Its a bit better than the old Cry of Pain, but I still don't favor it.  I utilize rather 'unconventional' builds that I spend my own time making.  I don't ask for builds unless I've wasted precious hours failing to make things work.  You can hate me if you disagree, but the fact is, I make decisions based on observable fact.  I'm not trying to QQ, but rather stating my opinion at the only place I can.  Oh, and 216.241.108.106, you may consider trying to be a little bit more polite to people.  Granted, this is a wiki and they can't hurt you for being a bit short with them, but you'd do better with honey, if you take my mean. - Ara ~ A R A ~ 02:39, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Not an anomaly
You're right, guys, my bad :( I guess I need to refresh my logic 101, or simply learn to read ;\ 76.30.79.54 17:45, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Anguish
That note doesn't belong here, the icons are vaguely similar at best. They both have men with painful expressions. Different head shapes, illustration styles, sizes... no. If this note belongs here, you might as well add to Grenth's Balance that Lyssa's Scale has a VERY SIMILAR icon. Chao 01:04, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Did they just..?
Wow.. I am speechless. Does this mean mesmers won't be able to pug anymore and elementalists take over the meta? -- Karasu (talk) 14:12, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Quite. GW2 anyone? Vael Victus  [[Image:User_Vael_Victus_Sig.jpg|18px|Pancakes.]] 14:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Overpowered CoP was used by any Me secondary, RoJ cryer for example, Ether Cryer, Soul Reaping Cryer, I hardly see how it would chonge the ability for mesmer to pug more or less. Elephant 15:43, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * We really don't need more health degeneration.. if it was seperate of the -10 degen cap.. owkay - maybe. But with just one Necromancer or a Ranger in your team you deal near nihil extra damage.. If they could at least give back the area-wide interrupt. Or give back it's original power to mesmer primary's. --[[Image:User_Karasu_sig.png|19px]] Karasu  (talk) 19:09, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

It still does the same thing, just over time. --→Darklɘs  McChaosmongɘr  02:43, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No it doesn't.. Damage is now between half and 100% of what it was before. Using this mutiple times will result in half the damage. Using this in combination with a ranger or necromancer will usually also result in only half the damage. --[[Image:User_Karasu_sig.png|19px]] Karasu (talk) 16:57, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Possible buff
I might have an idea to make this skill semi-useful again. What if you make it do 50 damage (like it does now) and another 50 damage if your Fast Casting attribute is 9 or higher. That way it won't be abused by necros, monks and eles, while mesmers can get their favorite PvEskill back (let's admit it, mesmers don't have much left in PvE, if you look at the other professions).
 * How about not removing the degen, keeping the damage, but make it do extra damage that scales with your fast casting? The degen is something I really love about this skill now, and I would like to be able to use it my non-primary mesmers too. Paddymew 11:44, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * How about they just nerf all the other stupid OPd BS so PvE isn't a joke again, and then maybe people will be more inclinced to take mesmers with them against monsters that can do things like heal for stupidly high amounts? --Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 19:01, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Not really.. I'd expect everyone would only want tank + dd and redbarrers. Before CoP was used for spiking mesmers were barely used. That doesn't mean the class is underpowered. People just need to see how to use its anti-hex, interrupt and e-denial. --[[Image:User_Karasu_sig.png|19px]] Karasu  (talk) 00:11, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * They were only barely used in PUGs, which are full of faggots anyway. Mesmers are useful in PvE, the people who don't think so are simply wrong, unless you're fighting the stupid normal-mode ultra-easy mobs (in Prophecies, this means basically everything before the ring of fire, in Factions it's every before you get out of the giant stinking hole that is Kaineng, and in Nightfall it's everything before Vabbi).   --Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 00:29, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I find it amazing that i've worked several months to max out my Sunspear title for this skill only to have the rug jerked out from under me yet once more. As smart as the people are at A-net they seem to lack any understanding of human nature that if you continue to move the bar and change the rules(tools)of the game.In time you will lose any following you may have developed.If this was only the 20th time A-net(or whom ever)had rendered my builds useless it would be different.Neither do they seem to understand that the more skills you nerf,the more you have to nerf.Oh well! I guess someone has to figure out how to keep thier job no matter who or how many they hackoff doing it.As someone who has been with GW from the beginning and logged over 10,000 hrs and had lots of fun,this is the last straw. For those who will without a doubt say "quit crying".Try working for months for something you want only to have an unknown change your reward for something you don't want.repeatedly,ever month,for over 4 years.And the explanation by some players that somehow the skill is better totally miss the point.Save it for the herds of sheep that blindly follow.
 * QQ moar. --Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 19:01, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Overpowered? I guess you simpletons haven't noticed the skill is PvE only and the Bosses are always 8 to 10 levels higher than you with monster skill you can "not" get and in mobs that for the most part out number you.Why don't A-net just zero out all the skills, we can call it even and go home and A-net can shut down thier servers.
 * You aren't even making a point, you're just trolling. Go away. 99.144.225.82 20:04, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

lol, anyone who can't handle the true want it to "just go away".

If you can't see the point that was made 99.144.225.82 you are one of those blind sheep. Righteous Ruler Alright so if you have a mesmer and decided to bother with max ss rank and spent ages working on it just to think its now useless your wrong. Try remember what you were doing before you discovered this OP skill and go back to it. if mesmers are useless after CoP got nerfed what the hell do you think mesmers were using before nightfall! or even what you were using while getting up to the desolation or wherever you went to farm points to make it useful. If you were using a build and found a new one that is incredibly over powered. Why did u change? the answer is simple, you don't want a challenge. You just want everything to fall down in front of you so you can walk through and take your loot you didn't even earn. This rule applies to everyone using discordway, sabway, racway etc you all rely on the most over powered skills and distort them to being even more powerful. if you are one of the people that use one of the over powered builds/team builds im setting you a challenge. get off your ass, forget PVXwiki, make your own build for you and 3 random heroes and go try something like vanquishing. Half the reason guild wars has an 8 skill limit is because they didn't want it to be like WoW or some other mmo where you have 20 billion skills and you click every single one of them in no specific order and change target and do it again. if you cant create a build of 8 skills that fit together to do damage but still make you work for it then you need to have a conversation with people that can and get ideas off them like what to look for when making a build and what kind of things you need to make it successful. I understand the main reason of PVX is to help those that cant create builds for themselves but i never would of thought people could be so greedy to just get 3 heroes builds someone else made just to make their life so easy all they had to do was add the heroes and henchmen then walk into the middle of the mob and wait. This is the end of my bitch to those of you who rely on over powered builds to continue playing. --Moosymoose 13:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

So i guess your using all Prophies skills Moosymoose?


 * Rant, rant rant. I also love people who bash PvX, like a wiki on skill templates really causes problems. Its analogous to people who'd burn encyclopedias simply because they contain information. But onto what I would like to say: 1)Im only disheartened only by the addition of degen to CoP. Whats disheartening about this nerf is that another PvE skill has a function for degen. I've NEVER found degen useful (and I've tried) for offensive purposes in pve. The idea behind the CoP nerf was to convert part of the damage so you couldnt team build to compress massive aoe dps. CoP still does a hell of a lot, but it takes time. And, IMO, time is one thing you dont have, in PvP or PvE HM. 2)Mesmers have plenty of damage options along the domination set, and even a few in illusion. If you're bored, you can FC/ele/rit/necro/etc. Simply because PvE skills for other professions are quite powerful, does not mean mesmer itself becomes a lesser option (I'd sooner take a PC mesmer than most any other PC professions). 3)Optimization != Distortion. For those who think some builds are overpowered, get over yourselves. In such a systematic game, there are a few ways things work, and substantially more ways for things NOT to work. Those that have the mental fortitude to see what does work should not have to endure babbling about 'making your own builds' or crap about random heroes. If I only have 8 skills, I DONT want to have to work more than I have to; my options are clearly limited, and time is not just money, but everyone's energy and HP as well. Im sorry, but I cant call a Defy pain warrior that spams energy attacks 'working for your kills'. Thats a time sink.--96.28.30.12 22:04, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Skills we work for.
I thank that if we work to get a skill that the game gives use then no one should change it in any way. Every time we get use to using a skill they take it. Its to the point I don't even want to buy the new giuld wars when it comes out. Freezerdog.
 * They change skills for balance reasons. Unfortunately, most of the time they do it wrong, that's why so many skills have undergone such a large number of changes.  ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 00:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I understand the need to keep everything balanced in PvP.I don't want to be at a big disadvantage. But in PvE we have the disadvantage when we are going up against monster that are 28 and above with skills we can't get.And we find a skill that can make it better for use to get the job done they change it,to where we are at considerable disadvantage. Freezerdog

I hate A-net. Narziss 03:34, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I can wand for more damage than this now.

Clarification plz

 * Damage is dealt to surrounding foes even if they do not suffer from a mesmer hex.

what s the difference in terms of damage/degen, casting it on a non hexed vs hexed foe?
 * If that foe was suffering from a Mesmer Hex, that foe and all foes in the area take 25...50 damage Your target has to be hexed in order to apply the damage to all foes in the Area. Fox007  [[Image:User Fox007 sig4.png|19px|User:Fox007]] 14:09, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If the target isn't suffering from a hex, they won't take any damage or degen. If the target is hexed, that foe and every foe in the area will take damage and suffer from degen.  If the target isn't hexes, they'll just be interrupted.  --Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 22:55, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

WTB revert for this skill
Why nerf PvE only skills? It's the PvP metagame that constantly needs balancing, not PvE. (Japanties 16:44, 28 July 2009 (UTC))
 * actually, this was making the "hardest" areas of the game a total joke, deserved it. -- Ckal Ktak  [[image:Technobabble.jpg|20px]] 09:39, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The skill should have been changed to mesmer only or based on fast casting etc. The fact that any nub could get the skill and use it,, is what messed it up.173.81.84.5 23:15, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

This
is stupid, that they would nerf this skill because it is used for farming, but leave a skill that makes permanent invincibility possible. --  Tha Reckoning   04:45, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh lookie what they nerfed 90.192.16.203 11:41, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Not a QQ section
Oh my! But anyway, shouldn't this skills info say -3..5 health degeneration, since every other degen skill has a minus symbol infront of it? Although having minus degeneration is theoretically counterproductive, uniformity is nice.  Firoas.  10:30, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Lol, if you think about it mathematically, saying this skill does -5 health degeneration would mean that they gain health.--Bleded Scythe 09:01, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That's what Firoas is saying. King Neoterikos 10:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Quick Question
When the degeneration is applied after you have done the initial interruption and damage, is this then considered a hex spell? like if you were to run this and VoR would the VoR do the lower dammage because this skill is on the enemy or group of enemies? 64.223.87.29 10:56, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * As far as I can remember, they do not get hexed - just the bars turn purple due to the degen (just like when standing in a Necro's well that causes degen). Been a while I played a Mesmer in PvE though. :) -- [[Image:User Sensei sensei-sig.png|19px ]]Sensei | talk 11:02, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I checked it out using foes on The Isle of the Nameless. CoP does not turn the enemy health bar purple.  No hex symbol (down arrow) either.  The red bar just shrinks.The Duke of Silence 11:12, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not a hex. It's an (invisible) effect that behaves very similar to a hex (with regards to stacking etc), but isn't subject to hex removal, VoR's condition etc. No purple bar, either.
 * Actually, regarding it's invisibility: it's invisible to the caster, but the caster can only see hexes and conditions anyway. I'm curious if the victim will see an effect, but I can only imagine one way to have a human player get hit with CoP: two very lucky Monkey See, Monkey Do - one copies a mesmer hex, the other CoP. However, to copy CoP, you'll have to use it with 0 fast casting and get hit by Arcane Conundrum or similar, otherwise Monkey See, Monkey Do will be too slow to copy it. Tub 12:32, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course you would see this if it were on you, much like Double Dragon. Though getting the effect of this spell on you is impossible (as far as I'm aware, Monkey See, Monkey Do can not copy PvE-only skills). -~=Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png (τѧιк)  03:55, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Would it be worth noting...
that the degeneration affects spirits, too? I realize thinking about it fact-by-fact (spirits can't be hexed; it isn't a hex) that it makes sense, but it's kind of unique because burning is the only other effect in the game that can cause them degen.--Ph03n1x 20:09, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it would be note worthy, but that is just my opinion. --Wilhelm Maverick 05:59, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Is it really the only non-burning effect causing degen on spirits? Did someone test Nightmare Aspect, Domain of Health Draining and possibly others? Tub 17:02, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Guess there should be a 'caused by players' clause in there, as well.--Ph03n1x 21:49, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

For some reson i can not get this skill
According to wiki i can get it from pikin but he offers 4 skills but not cry of pain, please respond a possible cause

Sorry my mistake It was not under mesmer skills