Talk:Gate of Madness

At the moment this article seems to have two "walkthroughs": the short one in the overview and the full, detailed one. Since I'm new around here, I'm too afraid to remove the little one myself, but it seems redundant to me ;) Khunlin 18:25, 10 March 2007 (EST)
 * I know that there is a smaller walkthrough. I was working off the Guildwiki version which is huge and absolutely needs the short summary to enable people to see what the mission is about quickly and easily.  I'm neither here nor there with keeping it here, because the mission walkthrough is short and easy enough to follow in this article.  If this wiki ends up being used and the article bloats out like the other, I think it'll need it, but at the moment, it isn't really needed.  In short, you can remove it if you want. --Aspectacle 19:03, 10 March 2007 (EST)

Lich Lord and AOE
I generally bring hench/hero group consisting of entirely casters for everything (I have managed to take down Glint like this) A consideration that one might want to note; bring some single target attacks for the Lich Lord! The Lich Lord and Shiro will be in close proximity to each other, and inflicting heavy AOE on the Lich Lord might very well bring Shiro to where he's using Impossible Odds, and this could be devastating when you are still attempting to achieve Masters reward. It is possible to lure the Lich Lord up the stairwell, and use the doorway to block his attacks (he needs line of site, while a caster may not) I had the misfortune of losing six heroes/henchies deep inside the chamber, and accidentally killed Shiro first. I retreated to the entrance, where I nuked the Lich Lord from the other side of the wall :) Gwynna Vive 11:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Shiro vs Ignite Arrows
I noticed when i started hitting shiro with needling shot + ignite arrows he started running from the AoE damage. Since needling shot can be kept up indefinitly and is spammable you can finish off shiro very easily once he's below 50%. Which is about the time he start to get really dangerous. Only blind spot is the 2 seconds cast time for ignite.
 * so this would make him run and not attack? nice :) ive been stuck on this mission with my derv forever, tips welcomeClose Impact 19:15, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Redirect
I have redirected Gate of Madness (explorable area) here because this mission has no explorable area. Shard 06:05, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Easy Lich Kill
We got the lich by running past and hiding behind Abbadon's statue with a nuker and Lich got stuck. And then we got him. This happen to anyone else?
 * Yes. Yseron - 90.15.191.248 21:23, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

derv
anny tips on running an effective derv build? especially for shiro.? and maybe if henchable tell me what henchies/heroes to take:p Thank you, ive been stuck on this for months.. 78.20.153.111 18:16, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Pain Inverter?122.109.162.76 09:02, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Ebon Dust Aura and fast recharge attacks, perhaps. (though impossible odds may make this iffy.).  you may just end up going with a good hero setup and staying out of that particular fight.Tambora 17:29, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Mission Bug
After capping all the altars, killing the Lich and Shiro....nothing happened. The quest list still told us to kill them both. After waiting for 10 minutes, still no mission completed. Anyone else encountered this bug on HM? -- Arduinna  19:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. Shiro aggroed me and i killed him, but the lich never turned hostile.  This was in HM Mat Cauthorn 17:04, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Just had the same bug. Lich just wont turn hostile. Tried recapping shrines. going in and out. nothing seems to work :/ (Ixillius 19:46, 1 July 2009 (UTC))
 * Damn it - just happened to me too. For the record, I capped the shrines by hero-flagging before engaging Shiro and the Lychee, then used Shiro's unfeasibly large agro-radius to kill him this side of the gate. Went to see the old dead geezer and he just stood there. Breathing. Maybe some research before a bug note? -- snog  rat [[Image:User Snograt signature.png]] 09:44, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This happened to me too. In NM.  I used the hero-flagging technique for shrines and skipped the shirokin on my way there.   http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/5280/screenshot20090903at100.png 68.181.241.42 05:09, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Similar experience in NM: I skipped the Shiro'ken, hero/henched the shrines, killed the Lich, re-capped shrines after killing the Margonites, then killed Shiro after luring him outside the gate. In my quest log, Killing Shiro and the Lich Lord isn't even shown, crossed out or not; the only thing I had left to do was "Travel to the temple of the Six Gods." Major suck. Threid 07:03, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm actually experiencing this right now :( Both Shiro and Lich are dead, all shrines capped, and I'm running around doing absolutely nothing Sirakou 02:05, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Just finished the mission in HM, bonus and everything and Lich Lord is bugged.. gg ANet... 02:50, 9 April 2010 (UTC) Vennie
 * Maybe if this game wasn't so buggy and shitty it would be more fun to play
 * What a fucking joke. Spent half an hour making sure i didn't over aggro, closed the portals, capped all the shrines and destroyed Shiro in under 30 seconds and now the Lich won't turn hostile. Thing is, he did turn hostile briefly i'm sure but it must be something to do with aggroing him and/or Shiro without letting the dialogue finish. GG Anet. Fucking waste of time. How has this not been fixed yet? 90.212.250.251 18:52, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

understated Lich
When I just tried this mission i read the walkthrough which says that the Lich is a piece of cake and easy to take down first before dealing with shiro, but honestly it ate my prot and proceded to pummel me with 280 damage per wanding (I had all armor on, just sitting and letting heroes deal with him). Am I doing something wrong or is he way more of a problem than the walkthrough seems to show?--71.202.97.206 06:41, 12 May 2008 (UTC) Oh, and blind is a complete waste against shiro because impossible odds transfers conditions, so instead of blind and without battle scars, i got the blind and the battle scars stayed on because wild blow missed (ftl)--71.202.97.206 06:47, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Conditions work better if they last a short time and are applied constantly, shadowsong seemed to work well for blinding Shiro, for instance, the time I used it.Tambora 17:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The sad part is that missions like these, from I can understand, the developers meant to fight both Shiro and the Lich at the same time which they fail in this which make repeating all painful and boring. Even the wiki states to lure one out which is not an epic fight, it's just suckering the developers which works anyhow but instead of Fun Gameplay, it feels more like a Job. Just do what the wiki states lure one out, kill and proceed with the other.--ShadowFog 01:55, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know about HM, but you can fight both lich and shiro at the same time. You should go after the lich first, since his physical damage is way higher than shiro's. Shiro doesn't hit hard until battle scars comes out. Basically shiro picks away slowly at you while you pummel the lich. --8765 02:02, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Please dont listen to 8765. Unless you like to die with the broken skill Impossible Odds don't attack both at the same time. This skill is done every 5 seconds doing well over 500 damage killing your group in an instant. Take Spoil Victor and some back up hexes. When he starts killing your group with Impossible Odds, suicide will be he's death while he massacres your group since he only does Impossible Odds when hes got 33% health left.--ShadowFog 15:33, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You could try reading what he said. Shiro doesn't use Impossible Odds until he's low on health and Battle Scars is based on the highest damage you're doing to him.  As long as you don't target him, he's harmless.  66.190.15.232 17:48, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Impossible Odds, whatever. It's really not hard at all. Run in, cap all the shrines, run back down to the center, kill the lich, then shiro. Bam masters, zero deaths. You're fighting both at the same time, just not damaging shiro. Btw, unless you specifically pull shiro to the gate first (due to his massive aggro range), you have to fight both at the same time to kill the lich first. --8765 00:41, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Even with capping all shrines, Shiro will still kill your party in a few seconds(already tried), it doesn't matter. Take your heroes without conditions inflicting skills and another player with heroes(preferably Assassins) with a few monks, no henchies and pummel Shiro into a pulp in a few minutes.--ShadowFog 23:30, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you playing Guild Wars? I can always pull the Lich without Shiro. Also: Shiro can't kill you if you leave him alone. Unless you have horrible (read: none) monks. Vili [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 00:25, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

External links:
This is a Youtube guide for Gate of Madness
 * ^-- "How to run Gate of Madness HM Masters, EASY! Just attain Holy Lightbringer!" 141.165.171.2 20:01, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Shiro and Wastrel's Worry
Shiro can be killed by a mesmer in NM by keeping out of melee range and just spamming. Pull him alone as much as he can be pulled, make sure everyone stays back. No energy management is needed as Shiro has no self heal except for. I've managed to do this before ww got buffed to 100 dmg. It could also work in HM, but you may need some snare to help you keep out of melee range. Boogy 23:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

easy
this misi isnt hard.i did it with henchs and heroes and i soloed with my sin the 2 bosses(with some healing).it was my first time.other guys say that they have been stuck there for 2 months aand i just laugh
 * Want a cookie? Its not a secret sin can do this mission without any problems. Gunm 16:23, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

My Hero + Hench Setup to the win :>
This is my setup: http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shirownedgi8.jpg Worked very well. I fought through the mission till Shiro - there were no problems so far. Then I placed the monks out of his range and told them to attack him. Me and Devona tried to tank, Mhenlo and Khim healed. Smites are very effective, because Shiro has a high armor and usual physical skills don't do good damage against him - but e.g. Signet of Judgement always does 75 dmg. So it was pretty easy to get him down, I only one time died when he was at 10%. Later I lured the lich to the Abaddon Shrine and the henches and me were hiding behind it - the lich could not hit us. Than I placed only Tahlkora there and the rest of the group captured the shrines - the Lich tried to hit Tahlkora but he couldn't because he wasn't in line of sight. Was pretty easy - Mission + Bonus without any accidents. ;) --84.60.53.113 18:46, 30 July 2008 (UTC) (Please forgive my broken English) Update: Same setup: Abbadon took 7:25 minutes, without any problems. ;)
 * With a human imbagon that also has, almost any team setup should work, especially in normal mode. I've henched this mission with my paragon in HM with no trouble. Boogy [[image:User Boogy Sig.jpg]] (Talk/Contributions) 01:04, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

After a zillion fails I (warrior) finally got it for HM. This is surely the most difficult mission I have hit so far. Here is the H/H set up I finally used: Master of Whispers (w/SS, Insidious Parasite, Price of Failure); Livia (w/Rt healing stuff); Olias (w/Spoil Victor, Empathy); & Odurra, Mhenlo, Herta, Sologon. Not too bad until the bosses. I pulled Shiro first. Kept SS, SV, IP, PoF, E on him. Used Pain Inverter and Wild Blow from myself. Had hardly any trouble. whew.. especially after all the wipes. Then it was simply a matter of clearing the shrines and Lich was very easy. Maybe this'll help. Molech 02:01, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Riposte, Deadly Riposte, Auspicious Parry if you want, block stances, Wild Blow. With any sort of healer, you won't die; putting anything like Empathy on Shiro when he uses Impossible Odds will finish him off. For future reference, it's much easier to kill the Lich first and cap shrines before fighting Shiro. Vili &#x70B9; [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 09:30, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I can never seem to pull the lich first... Sarifael 23:19, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've heard it can be done, but usually I don't bother...I pull Shiro and the Lich together, and just ignore Shiro. Vili &#x70B9; [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 23:20, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Bug/note
If you are doing the bonus by sending your heros in to capture the shrines first make sure if you do, pull your heros out before you get close to the temple or the mission will not up-date Rslink

Wall Block FTW!
Me and my team just finished this mission in HM for my Legendary Guardian title. Its easiest to pull Shiro out alone, and kill him, then pull the Lich and Wall Block him anywhere you can. While i had him wall blocked, my entire team was able to run within 3 feet of him, to go on to cap the shrines. He did lose agro some, when the shrines were captured tho, but if you hid behind the shrines, he will just get wall blocked again, and your team can run around to the next part of the bonus.Sloh Em Oshun 02:08, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Pulling Shiro
Absolutely agree with this! Was able to do this whole level with H/H only, with one elemental hero getting killed twice by Shiro the whole mission. Load up your H/H with interupts and get rid of all condition attacks except for blind. I was a ranger / fire elemental. I had Herta, Odurra, Khim and Mhenlo and then Vekk, Gwenn and Zhed. You want skills such as Aegis, Empathy, Ward Against Melee, Spoil Victor, Pain Inverter and the like (look these skills up and then equip similar skills). Obviously though, you need a strong enough team to make it to Shiro. My first build (mainly Earth and Fire elementals and two healers) was able to breeze through the level but we could'nt take down Shiro. I had to be a bit more careful on the way in with my second build but had no trouble taking down Shiro in about 4 minutes. -	The absolute key is flagging everybody into at least 4 locations around the outside of the entrance where Shiro will come out of. Make sure to flag your healers well back until you get a feel for how far Shiro will come out (DO NOT LOSE YOUR HEALERS). Your healers should be in between two heros, etc. You then want to walk through the arch and have Shiro follow you through. Shiro will disengage if you back off, so slowly flag your positions a little closer in. You only need to get your heros engaged with Shiro and your healers just close enough to be able to engage your heros (but not Shiro usually). Then when at least two other heros would engage Shiro I just kept hitting him with interrupts(Disrupting Accuracy and Savage Shot). He was hardly able to bring his nasty skills up at all. It was over in about 3 or so minutes. Then mop up the shrines and the Lich. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Mainebill (talk).

After failing many times in random PuGs, I managed to finish this mission the other day very easily with H/H but I was disappointed because I wasn't able to get the Master's reward. That is, I'm not quite sure how to safely pull the Lich. When I approached the stairs, both Shiro and the Lich got aggroed, but when I ran back, the Lich went back and Shiro continued. I don't think the article addresses this; it only advises me to "take the Lich down first". Also, considering they get aggroed the moment you step on the stairs, I can't really imagine how you would go through the stairs and to the shrines guarded by Magronites without having an encounter with Shiro and the Lich. Can someone explain this to me?--99.230.146.62 15:42, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Usually, you can just ignore shiro and kill the lich and margonites with him chasing after you. He doesn't do much damage unless you start attacking him, so with h/h you may have to flag them at times but otherwise it isn't a problem.--67.240.83.137 15:46, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

warning about using the shrine capturing exploit
Make sure that all of your henchmen/heroes are back next to you after capping all the shrines. If you run in too early after capping the last one, a slow henchie can aggro lich/shiro before they get to talk, leading to you having to do the whole mission again. Happened to me

I think this happened to me too. Killed Shiro and the Lich, but the mission will not end.

mission HM H&H
The end bosses are really easy if u use this technique i just took an SS,MM,e/mo (ER) i lured shiro as far as i could, then i made my heros come within cast range but not melee range so shiro could not attack them i microed zhed to PS,SB me and he died pretty fast. The lich is not as hard u just have to blind uit (for wanding) and be sure to interrupt life vortex he really wasen't a challenge.

Gl all;)

Shiro is pulling the Lich now
Can anyone help me confirm this? I've done this mission probably hundreds of times, and I've always been able to pull shiro to his unsuspecting doom; however, today I was doing GoM with my newest character and when I tried to pull shiro, the Lich came too. No matter what I did, the Lich would come. Longbows, spirit pulling, etc. Nothing worked. Did they make it so that the Lich always pulls with shiro now? (P.S. I noticed that shiro doesn't pull as far as he used to too). 24.26.253.105
 * Well, I just did this mission and I was able to pull shiro alone, though it did take 2 tries, I ran in and both shiro and lich charged me, I ran out so they'd run back but lich ran back further than shiro, then I was able to lure shiro alone. If anything lich's agro bubble has been enlarged but shrio doesn't pull lich.--84.192.7.219 13:44, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * This has deffinately changed from the original. I was initially unable to get the lich to pull past the bottom of the stairs for quite a while, so I just decided to change tactics and kill Shiro first instead. About half way through killing Shiro at the doorway (keeping him bouncing between gaining and losing agro), the Lich decides he wants in on it and wades into the fray. Was able to take Shiro down and, through flag spamming, grab the bonus before killing the Lich. The Lich seems to have definately changed, IMO. 86.159.201.206 20:37, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Killing Shiro first is by far the easiest path to the masters
After running several z-quests in hard mode for this mission, and after listening to so many misguided people demand to kill the Lich first as the first step to getting the masters bonus, I find it necessary to set the record straight. Killing Shiro first is by far and away the easiest way to finish the mission with the masters. There is no comparison. Killing the Lich first is just idiotic. Here are the reasons why:


 * (1) When the person pulling the Lich (or Shiro) goes down in to the temple arena for the first time, there is no way to pull Shiro or the Lich separately. Pulling one pulls the other since they are group now.  But the Lich walks slower than you run, and Shiro can shadow step around, and can easily keep up with you, so therefore he will be the first to the doorway and most likely to stay there as you continue to aggro him.  The Lich on the otherhand walks so slowly and breaks aggro so quickly, you have to bend over backwards to try to get him up there.   Even if it were still possible to pull them separately, it simply takes longer to get the lich up to your pull spot.  Why waste time trying to lure the Lich, or even more urgently, while Shiro is shadow stepping around trying to kill your spellcasters and healers?


 * (2) Because the Lich walks so slowly, it is incredibly easy for just one person to dance around him and keep him away from the others as they go on to clear the bonus shrines one by one. As long as you stay just outside your aggro circle with him, you will be out of spell range and completely safe.   The easiest way to do this is for one person to pull the Lich up to a shrine and keep him there.   The Lich will never go past the altar of a shrine, so if the Lich gets too close all you have to do is run to the misty wall in the back of the shrine where the Lich will never reach you.   As soon as he begins to walk down the stairs toward the others in your group, just emerge from the mist wall and reaggro...and repeat.  The Lich will stay in limbo until all the shrines are cleared.  Any character of any profession, with any skill bar, or even no skill bar, can do this.   That is not true if you have to distract Shiro (if you kill the Lich first), which might require two or three to distract properly, one of which must be a tank or perma (or someone with decent self-protection skills).

It is not clear to me why the myth of "kill the Lich first" started. It seems bizarre from the start given the Lich has always walked slowly from the his first appearence in this mission. The Lich is easy to avoid and easy to trap and hold. Shiro can't be easily avoided, he shadow steps, and although with 2 or 3 you could also hold him...why bother? Only one person of any profession can hold the Lich by taking advantage of his reluctance to go to the past the shrine altars. Out of multiple missions far more people die, and I have seen more party wipes, when people try to kill the Lich first rather than Shiro. It is just plain stupid to do so.

To be sure, you can go either route, but it is far more difficult if you decide to kill the Lich first rather than Shiro in my experience. In general, a fast opponent is always more of a threat than a slow one, and that is true here. --Rpger 07:50, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey I always thought that Lich should be killed first and ignoring Shiro we have to capture all the shrines, this is what I did with my sin and derv to get masters, well I will try getting masters ignoring lich for the 1st time and let you know how it goes115.64.157.4 09:25, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * You definitely fail. It totally possible to pull the lich without pulling Shiro by walking slowly close to the wall. If you just don't know how to do it don't go saying it isn't possible. In addition, though the lich is much slower it does far more damage than Shiro while Shiro get unharmed. If the lich manages to follow you while capping the shrines is much more dangerous than Shiro itself. So the best strategy possibly is to pull lich alone, kill him, then cap the shrines without attacking Shiro. It is arguable whether Shiro or the Lich are more comfortable fellow travelers, but don't go saying they're a group an cannot be pulled separately because that's totally untrue. Lhoj 08:55, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You are wrong, - if you follow my advice, you won't suffer any damage, unless your ability to understand map aggro information is so poor that you can't tell if you are approaching aggro or not.  If that's the reason you are failing, then that has more to do with your general lack of practice in the game rather than the approach itself.    This technique uses basic aggro avoidance techniques that anyone above novice level should be able to achieve.  The mistake you likely made is the one I see so many people make:  they don't seem to be aware there are 100% safe zones in the temple shrine areas, - safe zones where neither the Lich or Shiro will tread upon or attack into, and zones, which when you go into, make you invisible to both allowing you to play with their aggro.   This is true in both NM and HM.  It is extremely easy in NM, in fact in NM the aggro is so weak, I did the masters with henches the other day and never saw the Lich the entire time as I ran around taking the temple shrines.   I actually had to go hunting for the Lich after completing the bonus.  Had I killed the Lich first, Shiro is fast enough to at least stay in aggro, which would have forced some sort of response, - which of course makes killing-the-Lich-first the weaker method since you have to do more.   That is why killing Shiro first is by far the better method.
 * --Rpger 01:51, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, even if you were right about being able to pull Lich and Shiro separately, after participating in a dozen hm missions during the z-Mission day for this, I can safely say none of the people who were pulling were able to pull them separately, - hence the comments/complaints about such pulling from other people above in other sections. So practically speaking, it is difficult at best to separate the two even if you are right about being able to do so.  However, because of the basic speed difference between the Lich and Shiro, pulling Shiro first is automatic since he is faster to reach aggro and stay in aggro.  It makes far more sense to go with the easier pull than the harder pull, as you are suggesting.  Why do it the hard way?  Killing Shiro first is better because it's far easier all the way around, both from the pulling aspect to doing the bonus uninterrupted.
 * --Rpger 02:20, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * As I stated it's arguable if killing lich or shiro first is better. You keep on imposing your point of view anyway. Saying killing shiro first is the best way to do the mission is just an opinion, not a fact as you try to show. For some people, including me, killing the lich first is way easier, and that's just as valid as your tactic. Anyway, what you can't do is say that they can't be pulled separately just because some people don't know how to do it. It has been demonstrated that the lich can be pulled outside the final zone without shiro even noticing you. Doing so gives you a great advantage, but it's the player itself who decides to benefit from it or not. Lhoj 14:27, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not "imposing" anything except my reasons for why I think it is easier. If you can't argue on the basis of reason, then what basis is there to argue?  You claim pulling the Lich offers "great advantage" but you have not actually shown that by reason, since it's apparent to everyone that the Lich walks much slower than Shiro ... that is a fact you can not deny.   His damage is therefore irrelevant since it is not encountered unless you choose to encounter it.  That is not true of Shiro who can keep up with any party by shadow stepping and by normal speed.   You are saying it is better to pull the slower, more difficult opponent first, yet by several people's accounts I have read here and elsewhere, pulling just one, either one, was difficult or impossible.  Everything you say seems to contradict several peoples experience here and basic reason.  On the zM day for this I ran all 7 of my characters through and none of the groups I was with were able to pull the Lich separately, none.  I was not the one pulling, so I got to see 7 different other players try and fail your suggestion.   I have seen your suggestion fail in many other groups as well.  Shiro's damage is not insignificant and can easily kill or disrupt a caster also.  So the notion of "killing the Lich first is better" is unsupported by the facts. --Rpger 01:21, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

i have done this mission over 20 times on NM and few times on HM and i think best way is to kill lich quicky first cause he takes way more dmg and dies fast and shiro isnt too big problem when he have full health and assassins can pretty much solo shiro while other team is doing shrines/killing lich 195.95.209.20 07:41, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * First of all, 195.95.209.20, your sequence of events makes absolutely no sense. If one party member is soloing Shiro and another part is killing the Lich, then there is no practical way of coordinating the timing to be sure the two don't get killed before finishing the shrines.   If in fact you mean to say, one person is occupied soloing Shiro while others do the shrines, then in fact you are essentially presenting the exact same recommendation that I did: basically you are saying Shiro is taken out of the equation first.


 * I have also done this mission dozens of times as well, so I know what I am talking about. If you are getting any damage at all from the Lich as you get the bonus, it is because you are a klutz and need practice avoiding aggro.   Killing Shiro first is by far the best approach because avoiding damage from the Lich is so incredibly easy because of his slowness and the ease with which one (in both nm and hm) can suspend the Lich in aggro limbo without any contact at all.  The fact is you have to kill both to complete the mission, so it only makes sense to first kill the one that will be the most nuisance (ie. always in aggro, under foot) as you complete the bonus... QED, that means killing Shiro first since he is the only one fast enough to be any nuisance at all.
 * --Rpger 01:51, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I will emphasize though, in HM, masters may be easiest with at least 2 real people in the group to do it, since the Lich is more persistant, and one person will be needed as an attractant for the Lich as the rest of the group (1 real person and henches) goes to claim the temple shrines. This is only because the temple complex is larger than the radar, making it impossible to accurately flag your hench group into each shrine while you stay stationary in just one.  It still could be done in HM solo w/ henches (and I have done it) using the following method:  after claiming the first shrine, the Lich will likely be climbing the stairs, approaching your position.  At that point pull your entire group into the safe zone at the back of the shrine so the Lich walks back to the center of the temple complex.  Once the Lich has reset to his starting position, flag your heros/henches in BACK of the next shrine, which should be just visible on your radar.  You stay in the first shrine.  The heroes/henches are fast enough and Lich slow enough that they will scoot right by him before he can fire off a spell.  As they pass by him, you emerge and start down the stairs toward the Lich and approach close enough to him to draw his aggro, which will switch to you once the heroes/henches distance themselves in the new shrine.  In HM the Lich aggros far outside his spell casting range, so you will never be in danger.  As he starts chasing you, simply go back into the shrine you just came out of and keep pulling him up into it, eventually ducking into the safe zone if he gets too close.   Once your heroes/henches capture the next shrine, keep them out of aggro in the back of that shrine, while you also retreat into the safe zone of your shrine.  The Lich will reset to the center.   At that point, flag the heroes/henches to the next shrine while you run into the shrine that was just captured.  Repeat until all shrines are captured.  It doesn't matter if you do this clockwise or counterclockwise.  Frankly, I have never had any deaths in nm with heroes/henches during this phase, and rarely in HM, and have always gotten masters.   The only difficulty is the fact only 2 1/2 shrines are visible at any one time if you are in one, so you may have to flag heroes twice, and possibly while you are running to the next, adding a little more difficulty if you are soloing it with henches in HM.  With 2 or more people however, it is completely trivial with no flagging necessary at all.
 * --Rpger 17:26, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, great... now the alternative strategy to get masters with H/H in HM. Pull Lich, kill him, capture shrines with Shiro doing pitty damage, kill Shiro... quite less.. confusing I think. Anyway you can use your ubber flagging skills as much as you like. Lhoj 21:00, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What "pitty damage"? Shiro can easily kill spellcasters and anyone not watching out.  Basically you are arguing that dancing around Shiro and rezzing people who may have died from him catching up to you is somehow less complicated and easier than basically doing nothing but run to the shrines.  You are arguing complexity is simpler than simplicity... a bit backwards if you ask me.  Moreover, you can not stop henches from attacking Shiro if he catches up to you, and if they did so when Shiro was running Scars they would die for sure in such a case, likely precipitating a party wipe. Flagging is only necessary, obviously, if you using henches or heroes, and is not an issue at all with a real group, so your implied criticism of flagging is a bit absurd, esp. since you would have to use the same such flagging skills to keep henches from attacking Shiro prematurely in your own method also.  --Rpger 01:21, 23 September 2009 (UTC)


 * And I just thought of a cool variation of this solo strategy: since you can see adjacent shrines on your radar, you could also simply run to alternate shrines, rather than do them in sequence.  That way you could simply stay in one while your heroes capture the adjacent two using your group flag.  Once you have captured 3, then you can use the method to divide the Lich's aggro to secure the last two.   The reason dividing the Lich's aggro is a good idea rather than simply running completely as a single group from shrine to shrine is to ensure in case one hench dies in transit you have some leeway to draw the Lich away while the henches take the time to rez the dead one.  If you are all in one temple (or heading to one) you can not pull the Lich in another direction at will other than by reseting him to his start location using a shrine's safe zone.  Going as a single group is nevertheless doable, but more difficult and not recommended, as you need to be much more coordinated.  Moreover, heroes/henches seem to be adequate even in HM to capture shrines themselves, if you have a good group composition, so your value can be much greater as a free agent in this phase of the misson. --Rpger 17:26, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The sin "tanks" the shiro while rest of the group caps the shrines and after that they kill lich, after the lich is dead shiro should allready have pretty low hp and it's quick finish. 195.95.208.223 09:18, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

HM with H/H
I had read that this was one of the most difficult mission for a H/H team. That's not far from the mark. Still, this mission is not too difficult, provided you prepare yourself well. The largest threat, and by far (at least for me) came from the Madness Titan. There are not too many of them, but a pair of them would often kill one or two in the team, and if the four of them are unleashed, I would have a one in two chance for a party wipe. Other encounters are just a joke compared to them (a group of margonites, demons or shirokens are usually dealt with with no death.) Provided that you'll meet three groups of titans, this can be annoying. However, only the first group is unavoidable (unless you want to take the long path with many demons and margonites.) The second group (south) can be sometimes be bypassed, and the last groups (portals) doesn't have to be fought ; I fought them, based on previous mission attempts where I had to flee far from Shiro, and I wanted that part of the map clean. Actually, this was not needed this time. Once in the portal area, things should not be too difficult provided you take your time not to aggro everything... A mistake can be to be too close to the first portal when it pops up (did that mistake once, having forgotten the exact layout of the area) ; you'd then fight the titans AND the portal wraith, a sure receipt for a prompt wipe.

Once the portal are down, and the area clean but for (maybe) the two titans running inside, you can proceed to the temple. I highly advise using the "cheesy" tactics of sending the H/H alone to capture the shrines as described above. They will do this easily, and you won't get any untimely death in an unfortunate place. The problem here is not that I would not want to play the game as written, but in HM, you're going to have a hard time capturing the shrines while ignoring both shiro and the lich... The problem beeing that if you fight them, you very well might end up the mission with no shrine captured, and that's not what you want either... The game should give the possibility to capture the shrines after the defeat of the bosses... Oh well...

Once this is done, remain Shiro and the Lich. And both are a piece of cake provided you have the right builds (said builds may also make madness titans slightly more difficult to deal with...) First, Shiro will head for you very fast to the temple portal, while the lich is lazier ; if you retreat fast enough, the Lich will return at the center of the temple, and you'll be able to deal with each boss separately. As it turned out, I was not ready for the fight with Shiro as it started (nobody flagged to avoid some of Shiro's nastiest attacks) and I first expected a partial party wipe. Actually, Shiro fell down in less that one minute (I'd say thirty seconds), and health bars barelly budged. The same happened when I fought the Lich. Here, I believe that the carefull preparation for the Hero's builds did indeed pay very well. Yvesp 10:17, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Hero 1: Gwen, loaded with Lyssa's Aura, Wastrel's Worry, Empathy, Spirit of Failure, Power Drain, Leech Signet, Signet of Clumsiness, Signet of Disruption.
 * Hero 2: Livia, loaded with Spiteful Spirit, Price of Failure, Enfeeble, Power Drain, Leech Signet, and other spells ; I preferred Spiteful Spirit to Spoil Victor because I believe that it is marginaly more useful in the previous fights. Obviously, this wasn't a bad bet since Shiro fell easily.
 * Hero 3: Zenmai, loaded with a critical build meant for tanking Shiro (Way of the Assassin, Critical Defenses, Critical Eye, Critical Strike, Way of Perfection) ; Not really sure what Zenmai did against Shiro this time, but she sure was a waste in the previous fights (fell alone very fast to -60% ; I used some consummable to get the group back to +10% before entering the temple), so I'm not sure that I'd recommend her. Still, I used her previously (four times for other characters) to keep Shiro at the temple entry and I know that this build can tank Shiro fairly well.


 * I just did this mission with hero/ hench in hm and killing shiro first was easier  than lich,, I have always done lich first, like others, but killing shiro first makes capping the shrines much easier..  I basically hung out and tanked (without damaging him too much) the lich while I flagged the hero hench group to each shrine to cap. You won't see a progress bar while they are capping, but they will be fine, (provided you have a decent skill set up, haha) and the shrine changes color when u have capped and all mobs are dead. It really wasn't any harder then regular mode imo.. thats my 2 cents. Farmer Lestat 18:37, 21 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I found that with a protection rit (displacement and shadowsong specifically) shiro was quite a pushover, but the lich deals crazy amounts of damage with just his regular wanding attack. I killed the lich with shiro slicing away, and one hero died (but was quickly rezed, because at this point, the lich was gone).  I flagged to the shrine to make them disengage shiro, we kill the margonites, my MM makes some undead, shiro gets hung up on the minions while we cap the next shrine.  I started on the northern shrines, and as I left the second one to cap the three southern shrines, shiro got hung up on the minions again.  By the time he finally killed them, I was well off of radar capping the third shrine - and I capped all three shrines without him interfering at all.  I disabled displacement and shadowsong so I could manually trigger them when shiro was in range (and then re-enable them so the hero recasts during the fight).  I'm pretty sure shiro didn't even manage to kill a single minion, even when he was spamming impossible odds, because anything that did get through the blindness was blocked thanks to displacement, and on the off chance it got through that, too, he was reblinded every 2 seconds, so the condition transferal from impossible odds just wasn't an issue.  I couldn't see the numbers, but I bet spiteful spirit was doing crazy amounts of damage, what with him double- or quadruple- attacking a half dozen minions every half a second.  Long story short, I'd rather deal with shiro's impotence when he's at full health than the lich wanding people to death every 2 seconds.  Sure, shiro can kill casters, even without battle scars and impossible odds, but it takes a heck of a lot longer than the lich takes to kill them. -- Poppaea 04:31, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I just did this mission using the Gwen and Livia builds mentioned at the top here and then a displacement/shadowsong Signet of Spirits build on Xandra. With 2 healer, the earth elementalist, and paragon henchies (and the aforementioned heroes), the entire mission was a pushover. Had a bit of a heart attack with the madness titans (VERY hard), but overall not too shabby. Shiro clocked down at 47-seconds and then the Lich Lord, providing you initially hide your H/H behind the doorway wall so he doesn't initially spike them, went down in 35-seconds (Gwen's interrupts are GODLY). Anyone who wants to H/H Gate of Madness in Hard Mode for Master's should always use this build. Should be in pvx.wikia.com as a H/H build (good at least). Yvesp I could bloody well kiss you for the tip on this mission. Thanks love. <3  Zahra Ametefe 18:57:25, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Lich "isn't particularly scary or hard" removed
This line of text is absolutely misleading. I'm sure it depends on the group makeup, but in my case Shiro was an absolute kitten and my group was able to kill him off of a sloppy pull. Then after using a powerstone (we all had DP) and expecting to cap all the shrines with the not particularly scary Lich, we ran in and started capping the first tower. By the time it was capped our group was dead except for one warrior, and that was a wipe. I amended the text to be more accurate.

Allied Lich bug
Hello all, as I have encountered the 'allied Lich bug' again today, I at least capped a neat screenshot of him at the bottom of the Temple, check it out, maybe you'll like it, too :)

Exp
Has anyone else noticed that the mobs that keep spawning from the portals keep giving exp? no matter how many you kill, and if u remove all the portals cept the one that spawn titan abominations, en stand in their patrol path, and go afk and let your hero's do their jobs, that u get ulimeted exp? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.93.88.102 (talk).
 * Wow … considering the new Survivor update, that seems like a really simple way to farm points. – NuclearDuckie 13:27, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Farming portals sounds like a new idea. (However, newly spawned creatures always give xp; it's only rez'd foes that do not.) — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 16:08, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Not in Jennur's Horde, according to the Notes section of that mission's page. --Silver Edge 10:26, 5 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Good point, but that's a clear exception to other spawns/reinforcements. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 11:04, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

So ive tried what i said before, i removed all the portals cept the one that spawn titan abominations, i stood at the end of their patrol, took heros with spirits and stuff. And every time they came round it got me 232 exp (in NM). they take exactly 1 minute to kill respawn and be figthing you again so 232 exp a minute, so it will take little over 3 days of being AFK to get legendary survivor title this way (faster if u do it in HM). Im allready survivor, it goed very well so far.
 * So another entry from me(notice that i made an account) You can do this is HM with the right build and then use a scroll of rampagers insight. It will keep being renewed. With this setup you can have survivor in less then 1 day AFK.Morris 21:48, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * So, how much exp per cycle is this, with that scroll, if you recall? And do the these spawns give drops as well? If not, this still sounds like a pretty good method and probably worth adding to the guide page for Survivor. &quot;Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and tasty with ketchup.&quot; 22:11, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * As i recall it was arround 900 per cycle of 1 minute. These mobs do Not give drops. I'm legendary survivor now btw :).Morris 10:13, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

H/H method does not work
Tried several times to do bonus in HM with heroes. They capture the 2 nearest shrines, but as soon as they move deeper (and closer to Lich and Shiro) to capture the rest, the dialogue ALWAYS triggers and they get wiped (main character was lying quite far from the entrance). And how must I do the bonus now? Even if I kill Shiro, doing bonus with Lich on my tail is not possible in HM. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 95.25.40.193 (talk &bull; contribs) at 12:42, 27 March 2011 (UTC).
 * I never had any problems before with doing this. The dialogue only starts when your too close. please sing your commentsRumian 13:39, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * It's vaguely possible that ANet changed the trigger (but they usually announce that when they do...or one of the test krewe points it out in the update notes). Did you try the manual control trick? That's when you flag your heroes aside before trying to cap, send your player character to get killed, and then take visual control of one of the first three heroes (after you die, click on the hero's name in the party panel). This gives you the hero's-eye view of events and allows you to flag heroes more accurately without any chance of your own character triggering the two bosses.


 * Give that method a shot and let us know how it works out. Good luck. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 16:51, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * That was exactly what I did, from heroes point of view, with main character lying dead far from the temple. The heroes do trigger dialogue anyways while crossing from shrine to shrine, they also triggered it when I sent them by mistake to capture Abaddon shrine. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 95.26.24.119 (talk &bull; contribs) at 18:34, 27 March 2011  (UTC).


 * If you are sure that no player characters got close to the hallway (that leads to the shrines), then I would suspect that ANet removed this as a work-around. It seems out-of-character for them to not mention it...and to even address it (recent mission bug fixes have focused on making the missions easier to complete, not harder). When I get a chance, I'll head back and try it again myself; my most recent visit was after the derv update but before EB/7 heroes. Or maybe someone else will get a chance to post their experience, too.


 * The walkthrough also provides tips for dealing with the bosses. The essential one is: separate the two of them; individually, they are manageable. If your team lacks the suggested skills, just make sure they are flagged apart from each other...and you move them as needed. You have some time after defeating one to complete the bonus and go after the other.... as long as you break aggro. Good luck and let us know how it works out. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 19:02, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Still works, at least in NM. I didn't die, though, just flagged them from a safe distance away. I'm wondering if the IP got too close. -- FreedomBound [[Image:User_Freedom_Bound_Sig.png|19px]] 16:20, 6 April 2011 (UTC)


 * That seems more likely than that ANet fixed an exploit/bug and forgot to tell us about it (however, since the IP hasn't reported back, it's hard to know for certain). I've seen several players attempt this for the first time trigger (or come close to triggering) the two super-bosses, even when other players have been Venting&trade;, pinging furiously, or drawing on the compass. Unless you choose the suicide micro management option, it can be difficult to get the 7h/h&h go where you want.


 * Thanks, FB, for posting your results. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 17:15, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * As long as you remember that heroes can't always figure out the right path, getting them to go to the right place isn't that bad. I just flag them back towards the middle (not necessarily all the way to the middle), not from shrine to shrine, as that usually makes them get stuck. If the next shrine isn't capped in a reasonable amount of time, they got stuck, just try flagging a different spot. -- FreedomBound [[Image:User_Freedom_Bound_Sig.png|19px]] 17:20, 6 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I just did this on Hard Mode with seven heroes. I made sure that the last vortex I took was far way from the hallway leading to the Temple of the Six Gods and then I flagged my heroes in to all five shrines. Neither Shiro or the Lich triggered and my Heroes took all of the Shrines with no issues. Once I entered the Hall Shiro and the Lich did trigger and I was able to defeat them. 67.163.153.178 20:05, 10 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for letting us know. For now, I think we can leave the walkthrough alone and assume that something else was going on that prevented the OP from grabbing the shrines w/o triggering the has-been foes. (You gotta imagine that both Shiro and the Lich are pissed about not having their own mission in NF, reduced from the epic bad guys to mere incidental foes in a long mission.) — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 20:36, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Impressions...
Caveat: I haven't actually finished this yet. I suck. There, I got it out of the way, and said it myself, so you don't need to.

Context: I'm doing this with a Necromancer/Ranger, using seven heroes.

First impression: the environment effect in this mission is less troublesome than the ones in the other areas of the Realm of Torment. If we had continuous health degen, or damage-on-skill-use, or increased skill costs, as found elsewhere, that would be troublesome. A mild healing reduction is not important, especially as a great deal of my "healing" comes from life stealing skills rather than healing spells.

Second impression: as usual, careful selection of when, where, and in what order you engage mobs makes life much easier. There are several places in the game where the needed degree of fine-grained aggro control abruptly increases, and this is one of them.

Third impression: anti-clockwise around the rifts works very well, and I don't see how you could need to go the other way.

Fourth impression: the Undead Lich has impressively weak armour. At Ebon Vanguard rank 5 I tagged him with an unboosted EVSS, and scored just over 1300HP damage. Upsettingly, it wasn't enough to kill him.

Fifth impression: if you aren't correctly equipped, Shiro will shred your whole group in no time flat. (Here speaks the voice of experience. I told you: I suck.) Cynique 13:15, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Further observation: most of the reasons listed for why this is considered one of the hardest missions in NF aren't that compelling. The only one that is really significant is the presence of both Shiro and the Lich. Cynique 14:34, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

A Q. On the lich-bug
If you complete the bonus, but run into the lich-ally bug and are forced to do the mission again, are you already 'locked in' as having completed the bonus, or does it need to be done during an actual completion of the entire mission. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Remmybax (talk).
 * This is a Nightfall mission, so you have to complete the mission in order for the bonus to register (this is not necessarily true for the Zaishen quests associated with it, I'm assuming you're referring to the normal bonus credit). -- FreedomBound [[Image:User_Freedom_Bound_Sig.png|19px]] 19:50, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Lich changing back to ally?
Right, so I got to the Temple with no problem, got my team to cap 3/5 shrines, using the method where you send your heroes in but don't go in yourself. They got stuck, and I couldn't get thme unstuck using the flags, so I decided to go in. I got them out, and both the Lich and Shiro were attacking, and Shiro followed us back. We killed him and capped the last 2 shrines, only to find that the Lich had went back to being an ally in the Grenth shrine.


 * It's a lot easier to allow your own toon to die (far away from the shrine area entrance) so that you can see things from the perspective of one of your heroes. In the unlikely event that you do get stuck after doing this, you can easily maneuver to get them free.


 * If you are trying the trick, the one thing you absolutely do not want to do is to go in yourself. Remember: you are exploiting a game mechanic by sending the heroes past Shiro/Lich, so it's not at all surprising that following them later is going to cause things to go haywire. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 20:34, 4 June 2011 (UTC)