Feedback talk:User/Erasculio/Nerf the Shadow Form build

it would be too weak... &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Borotvaltgandalf (talk &bull; contribs) at 19:10, 12 September 2009 (UTC).
 * Do you think the duration is not long enough for an assassin to kill an important target and run, that the health loss is too big, that the recharge is too long or that the functionality is not useful? Erasculio  19:13, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Smiters Boon says hi. Also 5 seconds to kill an Elementalist Boss (or any Boss for that matter)? -- Silent Storm  [[Image:User SilentStorm MySig.png|Talk to me|19px]] 19:39, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * With 25% extra damage on attack skills, I think it's as long as it's going to take. Erasculio  19:46, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

There's another feedback on shadow form here. Shadow Form ♥ Ariyen ♀ 19:53, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There are actually seven other suggestions about Shadow Form, as seen here. Erasculio  19:58, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Think there's enough on the shadow form? Haha, that's a lot. 20:03, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe you should actually look at other people's suggestions and comment on there instead of being a self-righteous prick? DarkMugen 14:21, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Admittedly, some are similar. Talamere's is basically a tweak on the same basic idea as mine, for instance. However, multiple options gives ANet multiple things to consider. In the case of this one... in the current form, you are basically asking the Assassin to do their damage and get out before the short time period elapses. Possibly adding an effect similar to Aura of Displacement would be appropriate - make the Assassin jump back to their starting location when the enchantment expires. Draxynnic 05:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I made mine after the reading the title for the one Draxynnic made, I didnt bother reading the article, just the title Talamare 06:08, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

You could of course also take the effort to make a skill that is actually worth it taking, but that's probably too much to ask. I honestly don't see the point in killing skills in PvE, especially since you don't have to run the skill anyway. Dark Morphon 15:44, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Meh, some people could take the effort of making constructive criticism instead of whining, but that's apparently too much to ask too. Erasculio  19:49, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've seen someone turn the skill into a Critical Defense-esque skill, something that probably works out with a block chance at roughly 75%. Your skill only provides 5 seconds of invincibility, something you can't do anything with. Also, deal with it. Dark Morphon 12:04, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You really think an assassin with increased attack power can't kill a single enemy in 5 seconds? The problem with the block chance of 75% is that it relies on luck; against enemies that attack too often (like in Hard Mode), against a high enough number of enemies (like in any elite area and when farming), and against enemies whose individual physical attacks are too strong (like Hard Mode), or simply when being unlucky, it would fail. It would become basically a slightly more powerful version of Flashing Blades, not useful enough when there are skills that completely nulify attacks together with offering protection against skills. My suggestion gives assassins an ability they currently do not have in PvE, as opposed to giving them something like an unused elite skill they already have. Erasculio  13:33, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, I really think they can't. A strong dagger combo does what, 300 damage and Deep Wound? Your Shadow Form (which takes up your elite and will likely make it impossible to do so much damage anyway) increases this damage by 25%, making it something like 375 damage plus Deep Wound, disregarding armor that will further decrease this damage and potential healers in the group. Generally, Elementalist bosses have more health than that. Add into the equation the fact that taking out a single boss and hit-and-run tactics in general (ESPECIALLY on a 30 second recharge) are nothing more than a waste of time because you either run tankway + nuke all other shit around it or SY lol-impossible-to-kill-way which means you won't die anyway and it is obvious to conclude that your version of Shadow Form is completely worthless. The Critical Defenses-esque variation is still less sucky than your version because it actually fits in fast set-ups such as the "lolSYinvincibility"-ways with its great defensive capabilities, add it to and you have a vicious build that can replace an imbagon. And all this without even considering the fact that when you kill any such skills, a new one will just take its place, making this whole effort pointless. PvE is horribly designed and taking out the most degenerate skill won't fix that. Dark Morphon 14:33, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Horrible arguments. If you assume PvE is so broken there's nothing you can do to improve it, why do you even bother to read PvE suggestions? If you think all players should use is "tankway + nuke" or "SY lol-impossible-to-kill-way", then you basically agree to have most of the professions of the game to be useless (given how people are just going to use the best tanker class, the best nuking class, the best healing class and the best class to use SY on). If your idea to improve assassins is by making them a poor replacement of paragons (down to having to rely on a spear), why bother having assassins at all if paragons would still be better? If your criticism comes from those premises, it's no wonder you're against my suggestion - you are against making assassins a balanced profession, you are against improving PvE and you are against allowing players to go beyond the gimmick of the month or the so-called holy trinity. Erasculio  18:09, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * PvE can be improved, though it takes a hell of a lot of changes to do so. I read these PvE suggestions mostly because I wouldn't like Anet doing pointless changes like this one. Concerning the gimmicky builds, I never said that's how players SHOULD use it, it's just how it currently is. It abuses poor AI and the fact that monsters will always be using the same bad bars. It's the best strategy because it takes advantage of that. Concerning the inferiority of Assassins, I would hardly call a character that is immune to spells and gets barely hit by attacks while doing the job of SYing just as well AND doing more damage than the imbagon does an inferior character. The Paragon is good because it's ranged and thus less likely to get attacked, but that's mostly covered by the new Shadow Form for the Assassin. They both have their upsides and downsides. I'm not at all against balancing Assassins and PvE in general, I'm just saying that fixing a single skill won't fix the game. You have to do a lot more than that. There is no middle way, you must either go all out and fix things or just leave it alone. I would say improving the AI is the first thing you'd have to do. Then again, all this effort and time would better be spent on PvP, a format that doesn't inherently suffer from AI problems unless we're talking about Henchmen and Heroes which should simply always be worse than players in the first place. Dark Morphon 07:59, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * An addition: Your change is aimed at PUG gameplay since anyone that doesn't like Shadow Form or the PvE meta in general can just take something different. Since nerfing this skill will just result in people taking Terra Tanks or returning to 55/SS or 600/smite for UW and other areas again the amount of gimmicky play didn't decrease at all. Dark Morphon 15:19, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I like it. Although the duration is perhaps a bit low. But generally a good idea :) -Combatter 14:53, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The duration may need to be increased (the problem in balancing the duration is trying to avoid abuse while considering all the ways to halve the recharge of skills), and I liked the suggestion above to add a clause like "When your target dies, you return to your original location". But I think the main idea works. Erasculio  18:09, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Changing glyph of swiftness wouldn't stop the build - Arcane Echo can be used to perma, as well - in fact, its a meta build according to PvXWiki. Nerf that too? Then there's Quickening Zephyr... I'd rather see skills from other classes buffed so they can compete with permas, to be honest. It's PvE - doesn't matter much anyway. --Falseprophet 01:56, 16 October 2009 (UTC)