Feedback talk:Game updates/20100225

Section 1
Instead of nerfing all kinds of stuff for GW1-Spend the time on GW2 so u can release it. Thats why the GW community is getting smaller and smaller. Leave GW1 alone and work on the other or bring out anouther expansion. Bring back the 600 and SF for sin. Its just more fun that way. It gives people the fun of just doin solo farming. Now DOA AND some quests in EOTN are just too hard to do especially in HM. Vloxen Excavations for example. Cmon ANET bring it back humm ^^

HECK YES SON! 76.90.33.125 02:06, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

oshit --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 98.247.85.126 (talk).

Fuck you ANet. You have now made the game completely shitty. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 98.111.222.134 (talk).
 * They made the game shitty a few years ago.-- *Yasmin Parvaneh* [[Image:User_yasmin_parvaneh_sig.png]] 02:20, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I must agree. The game seems less fun. And for the record I've never had an assassin character. The buzz seems gone.

So you've pretty much made the game pointless... Farming is a term used in MMO's all the time, it's not a bad thing. Yet you decide to kill off perfectly fine skills because there were some elitist idiots saying it was "overpowered". Guildwars has taken a downward spiral since you went Nerf happy and screwed the entire game. I'm thinking of moving to World of Warcraft because of this ridiculous update. Thank you for screwing up My Game Anet... You will not receive another dime of mine for this game. Personally, I believe this is a backhanded attempt at getting people to move to AION. Worthless developer teams, go back to your basement you're not wanted here. And all you nooby warriors who wanted this change? Go play AION you worthless morons. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.140.19.193 (talk).


 * DnD online is free to download and play, looks like that's where I'm headed since GW took a trip to the crapper. Way to go, Morons. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.140.19.193 (talk).


 * If you want people to move to a new game that you put out make sure that game is better first idiots. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.140.19.193 (talk).


 * QQmoar. sorry you have to try at the game now. i can play my war and necro now too ;D 76.90.33.125 02:11, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Suck me asshole --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 98.111.222.134 (talk).
 * Honestly it's still probably VERY easy to run an Obs Felsh ele tank for DoA/Fow and keep the current tank and spank build...just put balth spirit on a midliner somewhere. Also, i heard farming end-game pve gets really easy when you bring back ursan--TahiriVeila 02:22, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * AMEN :D pray to the heavens, yay! Lazy Hazy Eyes 02:14, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

why not kill the bots? It takes time and talent to create a good build. mine are now dead. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Jervoodoo (talk).

It's a bit of shame, we made this game our own... and it's taken the developer team years to change it before people got used to and enjoyed Guildwars for what it >>was<<. We liked it this way, truthfully it was good for me... quick and nice and that meant I had time to do my coursework aswell, but instead it's made to a proper grind game,... also with these runs we played with other people, you had to rely on good team mates to get through these things anyways and dungeon runs were ways to teach other players well with the skills. It's nothing bad though shadow form alone could've been nerfed, 600's weren't completely invincible... --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 146.87.52.53 (talk).

The changes to SF are beyond Nerfing. The skill is worthless now. Even in normal mode 5 damage reduction is useless. You've effectively elevated the status of all past-farmers with their hordes of goods and eliminated the ability for anyone to come in. Other recent skill nerfs have further ruined aspects of the game; might I mention the Power shot which SUCKS in pre-searing now. The 500 plus dollars of real money spent by my family in Guildwars over the past year is the last of my money the company will see. Skill balancing PVP is one thing, but over doing nerfs to follow a socialist game agenda much the way the country is doing is too much. I will not be buying GW2, nor spending any more cash on ANET. And I don't even farm with Shadow Form, but found it useful at least in some areas, now it's not even that. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.209.52.142 (talk).
 * So, you're leaving the game? Sweet! Can I have all your stuff? --[[Image:User mrsmiles tinysmile.png| ]] MrSmiles 02:33, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It's still a good tanking skill. No spell damage, and -25ish damage from attacks if you work your build around it. Like dedicated tanks generally do, instead of also doing damage. Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Jupiter.jpg|19px]] 02:45, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * So "tanking" is bad for warriors because they're ostensibly a "DPS class", but it's good for Assassins who have to load up on near-useless enchantments to make the skill not suck as bad? Most of them are based around attacking (exceptions Shadow Refuge, Feigned Neutrality, and Shroud of Distress), only one of which is maintainable (Shadow refuge as well if you spec +20%). And since you're getting your head smacked in, you're going to want the constant DR, so you need enchants that can stay up all the time (Way of the Master, Assassin's Remedy (just don't use any attack skills. Oh wait, there's no point in having any on your bar!), Way of Perfection, Way of the Lotus (with +20%). At least all those Zealous Scythes with +20% ench and "I have the Powers" won't be going to waste. Targren 03:06, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Warriors have the most armor in the game, they are ostensibly a "tank class". I'm not denying they can do good damage. My point was, a dedicated tank shouldn't also be able to do lots of damage in many places, which shadow form used to enable. Now, it is more on par with other elite defensive skills. You can use it to tank reasonably well in a balanced party, but you probably won't be using it to farm many places. Dedicated warrior tanks generally use 7-8 defensive skills for the most difficult parts of the game, now shadow form assassins are in the same boat, which is good. Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Jupiter.jpg|19px]] 03:12, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * For all those leaving... can I have your SF Farmed Ectos? - SabreWolf 03:14, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Why not farm your own... Oh thats right, you can't anymore. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.125.181.147 (talk).
 * SF was nerfed, QQQQQQQQQQQ, stop farming like pussies. --98.127.35.156 03:23, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * That's my point. There's vast amounts of vitriol against using warriors as tanks instead of DPS and letting the support characters handle damage mitigation. I'm not even thinking solo-farming though. It's pretty useless in an H/H setting too since the AI just lurbs to steal aggro from a "tank." At least without the damage malus it could have some flexible utility. Targren 03:29, 26 February 2010 (UTC)


 * 1 argument, 2 sides, anet sided with their flower power everyone gits along to beat the game concept. those that play in teams, and those that play solo. teams are comprised of people who tell others what skills to use, how to use them, and when to use them, and if you don't use the build i say, you won't be a part of the team.  these are the same groups that whined about the economy being ruined by solo farming, but anet didn't buy into it, so their arguement changed to over powered solo builds and anet bought it hook line and sinker.  elitist teams are the minority, they want to eliminate solo play not because solo toons are overpowered, but so an area isn't overfarmed, and instead of everyone, solo, or team, getting 2-3 ectos per UW run, the 'teams' and only the teams get 8-10 ectos per run, thusley leaving those that don't want to be dictated to, the solo players, forced to do as told, or pug.  if anything, solo farming did more to equalize the game fairly than any 'balancing' done by the devs.  hate to break it to you anet, but you've pandered to the minority, and hurt the larger fan base of the game.  if you doubt this as fact, until cry of pain was nerfed, you could not join a party as an ele in urgoz's warren if u did not use echo and cry of pain. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Ferret1972 (talk).


 * your ideal of everyone getting along and playing nice together is nice in a daydreamy, the world can be perfect if we all hug each other kind of way, but the root argument is and always will be most people want to play the game as 'they' enjoy it, in a team, or solo. anet has just taken the stance that you will play their way or no way, and put up with rude behavior, bullied, and snubbed, or play on your own and get nowhere in the game. the only way i accrued any wealth was by my sin during festivals and farming because i refuse to be pushed around and told how *I* am going to play by other players.  and for those of u who want to flame, i do play with my small guild, and we can and have beat every addon/mission in the game.


 * which brings me to this. Underworld, Fow, Shards Of Orr, bog roots, veattir fields, raptor farm, and Tomb of Primevil Kings. those are the ONLY farming areas for sins, and the almighty SF. and the first four require a whole team of sins to speed clear. i do not know how u defined 'endgame' in your justification for taking away solo play, but those are elite areas, and coincidentally are the areas that drop unique items, like ectos, shards, and a couple unique weapons. so, just to clarify, it boils down to money, and the determination of the few to get their way by distracting from the true arguement of their borish behavior towards other players, and making it about 'overpowered' skills to play on anets 'ideal' style of gameplay to satisfy their greed.


 * while i believe GW is a superior game in graphics, programing, and people like gaile who truly love their creation and invest their souls into it as a mother or father would their child, the remaining staff, and decision makers have made it clear that this game has run it's course and time to move on. even the best run experiment in the idealistic realm of 'free' gaming has run it's course and shown to have failed due to the lack of funding provided, and the greed of a corporation, to exude anything more than a mild and pathetic attempt to put forth any effort into a non profitable game.  i'm looking forward to Star Wars, at least with a pay to play basis i can count on one thing to keep them attending to the majorities wishes, and ironically, that would be greed. Ferret1972 04:16, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

And I hope it stays dead. It never should have been buffed in the first place. If you need a God-mode skill to farm then you have no talent. Sure, new, overpowered skills/builds will replace it, but today is a victory. If you don't like it, quit, and give away your mountains of loot this forsaken skill all but handed to you on a platter. Xiaquin 06:01, 26 February 2010 (UTC)


 * WHEN YOU BOUGHT GAME YOU READ IN THE BOX? " YOURE ADVANCE IN THE GAME IS BASED ON YOURE SKILLS NOT ON YOURE HOURS OF PLAYING" LEARN TO READ OMG!!! POOR BAD PLAYERS BABIES THAT LIVED TO FARM LIKE FOOLS WELL IS TIME TO LEARN TO MAKE A TEAM NOT TO SOLO, ONLINE GAME= PLAY WITH OTHERS, POOR LITTLE BAABIES ARE SO BAD THEY CANT DO OTHER BUILD THEY JUST CAN DO THE BUILD PVX WIKI GAVE TO THEM OHH SO SAAAD Ivy Thunder Goddess 1:07 26 February 2010. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Ivy Thunder Goddess (talk).
 * Disable caps lock, enable spell check, then try again. Also, lol@. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 07:12, 26 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh please everyone stop whining. Seriously? It was way overpowered, it made the game way unbalanced. And also it made everything so easy. Now people might actually need to come up with other stratergies to complete things. Oh and not to mention that parties might be more balanced and not contain about 4 different professions and that's it. Hey at least ursan wasn't profession descrimatory right? 203.185.229.15 07:31, 26 February 2010 (UTC)


 * All farms are profession discriminatory. At least it was profession and not rank. -- Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] Flame Me  07:35, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

You know i see time and time again that Sf is good with a balanced team well NEWS FLASH no one works together on teams and running like chickens with your head cut off is not team work (most dungeon Sc's)and haven't since hero's came out if anet really thought about the nerf they did, they would see that the only thing they accomplished was pissing off people who are just waiting for gw2 to come out. leave gw1 alone and get gw2 online cause at this rate the only nerf going on is the population of Guild wars so in turn there are no balanced teams to go with you shitty Elite nerf on everthing.

Section 2
I have played this game for almost 4 years now it was fun the way it was and I enjoyed playing in the small personable guild that I helped build up. I think its kinda sad that Anet thought they needed to completely turn these builds to dust. To reply to the person who said something about "solo vs. Team" I play both ways and enjoyed both. The game is what it is... there is no need to constantly change it to please a few people. I spent a lot of time and money on this game it is my way of relaxing .. so sometimes I don't want to play with other people. Sad to say as much as I was looking forward to buying GW2, I will not be spending my money with Anet any longer. Yes I will still probably play this game but all the extras that I paid for I will not be buying anymore. D. Boca NC, USA (btw) Xiaquin.. most players dont farm to store piles of loot... we farm to get the things we want in the game like obby armor. I had to farm for 3 months to get enough ecto to buy that armor. Yeah I didn't use the ecto to buy stupid minis and crap like that (although I have a few nice ones) I used it as the game has it in place for. I don't have alot of gold from my 600 running ppl in CoF I have a bit because I ran myself through there and did the work for myself and sold the stuff I got to the merchant. SF was not a "God-mode" skill it was the skill that the developers of the game made for use with the Assassin character. Someone just figured out how to make it so it didn't end. If you think it's a victory for players who don't want to put up with other players snobbery then you are just as sad as anet for faliling to listen to the fan base of their game. DB --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.57.31.172 (talk).
 * I think you underestimate exactly how many people were against this skill. You should have seen the arguments we've been having on this wiki. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 08:33, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 8/10 people that know what shadowform is were to buzy farming to give a rat shit about anything happening on the wiki. of the 2 that do, one of them actually doesnt give a shit about whether they nerf it or not. And the other one is just whining because they wanna whine. -- Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] Flame Me  10:07, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Once Again you Screwed Up Anet. Now, you nerfed SF ? What are you thinking ? And be for any starts their mouth, im not a noob player , i've been here for 2 years. You finally made this biggest blunder you could make. You listneded to all the little girls out there who couldnt run famr ecots, and weren't willing to make  a sin to do it. as someone stated earlier, different characters  farm different areas. Now you just screwed half the game. Not just ecto farming, you screwed runner,  dungeon runners,  Z mission runners. SO all of you bastards that complained about SF, i hope you didn't intend on  getting your HM dungeons  or your Zaishen stuff done  by a runner like you did in the past , you fucked us , and yourselves/ A piece of Advice Anet:  GET A NEW TEAM FOR UPDATE FOR GW.. THE ONE YOU HAVE IS BIASED AND STUPID. THEY ARE RUINING YOUR GAME. IM GONNA GO PLAY DDO NOW, I'LL BE BACK MAYBE WHEN YOU WAKE THE FUCK UP ! OH ..... fuck you for the Cripshot nerf to ! --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 98.20.141.43 (talk).
 * ^ ^ ^ ^ this ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ is what happens when a degenerate build last for too long, people get used to it and think it's the normal way to play the game...--194.2.20.67 14:22, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * lolwut --71.193.48.146 14:20, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 0/10 for the player who take games too serious ^^ -- Cyan [[Image:User Cyan Light sig.jpg|19px]] 14:31, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * /agree. 0/10. Also, Please consult a doctor about your obvious heart problems. -- Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] Flame Me  14:33, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You mean you'll have have to use a build to farm that's more complicated than pressing your buttons in order from 1-8? What's that? You'll actually have to form a good and decent team in order to accomplish dungeons, z missions and elite areas? Stop fucking crying and stop acting like a little bitch. Suck it up and learn how to deal with your character not being immortal. Try earning your high end loot again. Obby armor, rare weapons and other items don't mean shit anymore because all the over farming meant that any noob with an elite sin tome could become obscenely rich. I did the Shadow Form sin for a brief time to see what the hype was about. Running a SF sin was the worst build I'd ever done. It was mind-numbingly simple. At this point I'd say something to the effect of "R.I.P. Shadow Form." But it hard to wish for a restful death for a skill that I hope dies a thousand more times.Ronjewart
 * Yet another 0/10. Also, Please try to be just a bit more polite. -- Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] Flame Me  14:50, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

WOW Anet WTF are you Thinking? With all these Titles and Elite Areas We Need A Class That Can Do Said Things, So we can get Cons, Mats, Title Track Items! All The Elitist that say that it is to over powered or w.e. it maybe but they Had The Privelage of Trappers, Ursan, Shadow Form, Invulnerable Monk ect. Oh Lets not forget about the Item Dupe! Now How Is This Fair? What Do You Want From Us? Do you want ppl to Hack or use Use Gold Seller's more You take one of the best "legal" way's  to get Money Ect. and take it away! I have been Playing this game for yrs and the one thing I like to do AND HAVE TO DO (Farm) for my title's just got harder! Since These Elitist have ALL the Items/Money they now control the market even more now! Why Can't You Just Let Us Be? Do you want ppl to quit playing? Let's see you get a "Team" for DoA when there are barely enough ppl in area's of such,not to mention the fact that most ppl wont even let in thier group. I Hope you like ppl Hacking and using Gold Seller's or just plain quiting GW for Good! Have Fun With Your Stupid Farming Nerf's hopw it come's back to Bite You In The Ass --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.0.107.236 (talk).
 * "...maybe but they Had The Privelage of Trappers, Ursan, Shadow Form, Invulnerable Monk ect. Oh Lets not forget about the Item Dupe! Now How Is This Fair?"'
 * You sound like developing countries who want to burn all their trees and fossil fuels, thus destroying the planet, because the other countries already did it. If ANet messed up in the past, surely it's better to fix it later rather than never, instead of simply letting it get worse and worse. To say "the damage is already done" is to say it's beyond hope, let's all just pack up and leave now. Widowmaker 15:28, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The damage IS already done. And it IS beyond hope. The rich are now going to be come super rich and the poor will now continue to be poor. This update has done nothing but serve to widen the gape. -- Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] Flame Me  15:32, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I can only say one thing about the Shadow Form change: "Finally!". And they didn't turn it into oblivion, they made it a better skill that it would be if they made any of those typical nerfs that just change numeric values. Now is on the same lines as Obsidian Flesh and Spell Breaker, and consistent mechanics are easier to balance than very different ones. With some blocking against attacks and some enchantments, assassins can still tank is you have half a brain. MithTalk 15:34, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Section 3
I personally think that the new SF is better than the overpowered and cheep original. Yea, it made farming easy. Yea, it made ectos relatively cheep. Yea, it got the lazy-ass players through the game. Now get over it and learn how to play a game based on tactics and strategy. Ill admit, when I started farming ectos on my assassin using a permasin build, I loved it. The part I hated was even with that I would need to take 10+ attempts at the farm before I got anything worthwhile, let alone a ecto. As for missions, yea, it was fun too being able to slaughter with out ever having to look at my hp bar, but it became too cheep. Why the bloody hell would I want to play a game using a skill that practically gives you "GOD MODE"? This new setup for the skill will force players to actually attempt to be competent and more than 1-2-3 button smashing. My assassin uses a totally different build, using several enchantments and focusing on critical hits to deal damage. And Ill say this; It works. Its not some cliche build, its one I made on my own. Sure, with it I actually need monks and other professions to do things with, but who cares? Thats what this game is built off of. TEAMING UP, not standing around like a flippin pansy while some button smasher does all the work. achievements and all that are things that are meant to be EARNED. Far too long people have been acustomed to high-powered builds such as permasin that they no longer know what the true game's purpose is. When players think that a skill is useless, theres a problem. SF did that, it made many other viable builds useless because people were too lazy or dimwitted to work on a different build that WORKS. If you did use a different build, kudos to you. Your following the way the game SHOULD be played. study your environment, and adjust your build to match the circumstances your going to face. Thats why there are so many skills out there, to give you options on what skills to bring based on new or different circumstances. More people have been asking for this change for SF than I care to acknowledge. Walls of text 15 times the length of this one were everywhere, all based on people whining for a nerf, and they wern't all the same person, no. New people were poping up all over the place. Saying that 80% or more of the people are put out due to a single skill being changed either means GW is nothing more than a game full of pansies that need to learn how to play a game the way it was intended, or the ones saying these things havent been around long enough to know what the big picture of the situation is.

Overall I think this; if a skill is prefered exclusively over others, theres a problem. If a skill is disreguarded time after time again, theres a problem. Every skill should have a useful nich in the overall build setup. Any skill that no longer fits these requirements or dominates over the rest needs to be changed. Gear up, rune up, mod up, and learn what skills are needed where. THAT is what build-making SHOULD be about.--Neithan Diniem 16:36, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I can't believe the vitriol here. I'm actually liking the skill changes - it keeps things fresh, and I get inspired to try out new builds. Mind you, I don't play to farm, I play to try out new builds, Elite Cap, do the odd Nick run with my guild, and just enjoy myself. People screaming about 'OMG Nerf', yeesh. Here's an idea - rather than trying for the 'perfect' build to do everything, experiment and try doing theme builds. Sure, not as efficient, not great for farming, but why not enjoy a challenge, instead? Tashiro 17:50, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * ok plain and simple SF was a good BUILD that couldnt be used alone..so y did these dumb newbs say it was overpowerd skill when the skill only worked when used with 2 other skills or com-sets (aka BU) and i dont mind them buffing other skills or even nerf'ing a few but i think Anet epically failed when they removed the abblities of Sf so congrats u have lost a ton of players. and yes it is fun to make builds but when u remove the FARM build you remove the farmers i dont have time like i used to to sit and work out builds or learn new 1/2 assed farm attempts so good job and im off to WoW now --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 99.53.159.79 (talk).
 * It is a lot more than noobs who consider SF to be overpowered. Let me put it another way, the idea of a 'speed clear' shouldn't even exist in an MMO.  Speed-Farming shouldn't even be something that exists.  The closest I've seen in our guild is a solo Feather Farming build, and even that build requires you to pay attention to what's going on, and isn't a given.  And if they alter/nerf some of the Skills?  Whoop-de-do.  Big deal.  The point to Guild Wars isn't farming.  As for lack of time -- you know what?  I play perhaps 10 hours a week, if that.  Usually closer to 2-3 hours.  Fiddling with builds is part of what I enjoy about Guild Wars, and if they change a bunch of Skills, it gives me more to tinker with.  The people who Rage-Quit?  Good riddance.  They're obviously flakes. Tashiro 00:33, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

well now what i guess anet is to stupid to realize that about one third of the players cant play like they used to if not more so they remove the #1 farm build from a game where 70% of the people only have farmin left to do...hmm sounds smart not to mention right before GW2 is supose to be released..very very very smart anet lose all your players right before u release a 2nd u might as well told Wow that u were giving them 2 million players this weekend so good job and peace out

i love how thse so called elite players say the skill made u immortal..umm maybe if u used it or even tried it u would realize all the SF builds were unique not some generic random nonsence that took time and effort to create only to have it all removed because of the so called elite players..well guess what now those elite players who have stacked up ectos will become so overpowerd that the ones just staring will have no chance to see any of the unique item (except from looking at the players in an EA who run around laughing at the regular players) u didnt fix the problem of ppl being overpowered u made them true GWAMM meaning no1 else will ever be to experiance the joy of beating that Hm area like doa with out beggin ppl for help in short u all suck and good day and have a good rest of Gw life (as short as it may be) --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 99.53.159.79 (talk).

Im a player that has a toon in every class have beat all games with every toon. how many times can u beat the mission or quest with out it getten boring.I help ppl get threw the games and missions but that gets boring to. The only thing that makes this game interesting is farming with 600 and perma. Its not like im in a guild with a 100 ppl in it that u can just grab some ppl and go do an elet mission.If they don t change back the sin and 600 i will be looking at other games.69.139.13.97 00:29, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Darn, I guess people now have to learn how to play an assassin. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:57, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * For all of you who are continuing to say that SF was not overpowered, and did not need to be nerfed, or that solo farming or speed clearing elite areas was a good thing, I suggest you see what the developers thought about it. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  21:40, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Whether or not it needed a buff, your appeal to authority doesn't help your case much. The developers are more than a little fallible. They're the same ones who apparently thought that EotN would be sufficient to hold the game for 4+ years. 207.30.169.168 22:19, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Honestly it's hilarious how much QQ there is over the nerfs. Oh no you have to actually PLAY PvE...and no more Speed clears....no more bots makeing you insane amouts of gold....yah that totally ruined the game. Wait what?BurrTheKing 22:03, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I also have every toon in the game and the main reason was to farm anything anywhere at any time SOLO or as close to solo as possible. Now we get to throw away ALL builds made for farming and start over again. The purpose for ME to have all these chars was to FARM. Since I have done completed all campaigns I find myself bored of the game and go back to the fun I bought the game for was farming. The multitude of skills being changed here is uterly absurd within an update. Why nerf the most popular farming builds? Seems like all the non-farming people had a tizzy and texted there opinions to Anet thus sparking more chaos. I guess we need all the Pro-Farmers to text there opinions here in massive quantities explaining there views on why to not nerf some of these major skills used in farming or even missions. I constantly get "u have been playing for xx hours".....Well thanks to these nerfs im gonna see alot more of it....or maybe not at all. I have resided on giving Anet a short time to review these texts and do the right thing. If they choose not to re-establish the skills as they were or perhaps buff them they loose me as a customer now and in the future. The game is old but i did love it. This is my opinion so take it for what its worth. Maybe Anet wants to save bandwidth by losing ALL farmers. More bandwidth to test there GW2. I am in an alliance and the majority of the people are spending time on ventrilo by discussing a new game to move to. VERY VERY SAD! BTW to the non farmers....through rescent months i see the player counts on GW seemingly dropping...When u non-farmers need people to group up its gonna be even more scarce....I feel for ya there. Some farmers will stay but I also know if these skills stay nerfed alot will leave....Sadly. 66.41.142.180 00:54, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I heard farmville is good 192.203.160.241 01:21, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

tl;dr - Everyone is trolly and bad at the game. Whiners whining. Self indulgent circle-jerks being stuck up. QQshadowform. QQ ANet. LOLURBAED. - ANet VS Shadowform, FIGHT! (1 year later) FATALITY!.

Get over it. -- Briar Flame Me  01:11, 27 February 2010 (UTC

Section 4
Ok, i have sat here and read a lot if not all views here. I even posted my own earlier. With everything taken into consideration, Anet fucked up. Yes, SF was popular , for a damn good reason. It worked. People need money for titles, and ectos sell, they also need them for certain items ( obby armor,  chaos gloves , etc. )  And to you dumb bastards talking about team play, I TEAM  play. I also do VSF. Remember that farm ? You need a PERMA SIN TO MAKE IT WORK. PERIOD. DOA also made good use of perma sins. So the real pansies  are you dumb bastards with tunnels vision for SF. Runners Use IT, Dungeon Runners Use. VSF uses it. DOA uses it. And who in their right mind goes team farming for materials or to make cash ? NO ONE ! ABSOLUTELY NO ONE ! You dont share your paycheck i real life with some stranger do you ? NO, OF COURSE YOU DON'T ! And for the record, most SF builds take a good degree of  concentration , it's not just button clicking ! You have to know your timing and your skill set just like any other build ! If you dont like SF, dont fucking use it ! But you have no right as a MINORITY  of players to screw the rest of us. Thats right ! SF haters are the MINORITY ! Always have been, Always will be ! Live With It ! And as far as all the other Nerfs, bullshit on them too! When they finally run off 95%  of the players becuase all of the sins, rangers , necros , and ele's get tired of their nerfs .. all fo you " i play a warrior " tpyes who believe they are the only class who ahs a right to deal damage and  be the best can enjoy twiddlign your thumbs in Lions Arch  or Kamadan like you do right now. ANET WAKE UP! Your listening to the wrong players, and the small team of you who acutally half -ass , and arrogantly attempt to maintain this game are making it worse for everyone. Reinstate ALL skills for ALL classes and let us play, or your gonna be without any players, no players, no money ,no job , think about it. Oh and kudos to Eric Flannon on a great interview on GW2. Eric, do us a favor , fire this team who is maintaining GW ,  they suck. Put em to work fixing bugs or something and get a real dev team back on the job.
 * Excellent rant. I score 8/10. Would have given you 9 if you had remembered to sign. All 10 if you were better at English/Grammar. -- Briar User Briar BriarSig4.png <font color="Orange">Flame Me 03:22, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * WAAH I HAVE TO ACTUALLY TRY AT PVE NOW!! OK guys, Anet did NOT fuck up. You know how a lot of people don't play PvE because it was so easy? It was mainly because of cheap methods like Shadow Form and Ursan. Now that Shadow Form is gone, we can actually have some new farming strategies, rather than a bunch of stuck up Ebeneezer Scrooge's running around and farming like there's nothing to it. Yes, I am comparing you people who are complaining about the SF nerf to Ebeneezer Scrooge, because I don't even think you give a damn about the gold, you just like being considered "rich" here, and when you lose your "job" your "life" is ruined. Seriously, stop whining about a game update. I've seen people whine less about getting divorced or losing their job. Pretty sad. --Swift Aura 04:20, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

It's sad that so many people have to be so rude to others, due to a difference of opinion. GW Wiki provides a way for us to give feedback on certain skills and updates. Why do other players come in and laugh, ridicule, bash, curse, and insult them, if they do not agree? To try to convince them they are wrong? So many players posted simply to belittle someone else, because they loved or hated the nerf. This is a very sad, and not for the person you are insulting, but to yourself for showing the world how little you are as a person, that you have to try to put someone else down, because you are so unsatisfied with yourself, or your real life situation, or perhaps, you are socially frustrated in game or not. Either way, I am sorry to see that and I hope you find a more productive way to feel better about yourself rather than insult someone you don't agree with, or to laugh at someone that feels a loss, that you do not share. Bottom line, each player decides how they want to play, based on what Anet provides. Anet provids the use of shadowform. It received a nerf years ago, but endured that test and still remained a class defying Elite. Yes, many people felt it was overpowered, some even felt that anyone had the capacity to rule all of Tyria with it. I can quickly tell you, they are wrong. Many of us, veteran players (I've played over 4 years now with 10 different professions regularly), have seen countless horrible assassins attempt to perform well in high level dungeons, and fail. Many of us have seen who we consider to be expert assassins, fail miserably, in FoWSC, UWSC, SOOSC, VSF, and the list goes on and on. The use of SF in what is considered to be End Game material, wasn't simplistic, instead it required a lot of focus, practice, and concentration, while some aspects of certain zones became routine, due to regularity. If you do Underworld Pools 3 times a day 3 days a week, it gets to be pretty routine, but guess what?... you still die sometimes, everyone does, it's End Game Material. But to say that ANYONE with SF could do UWSC or SOOSC or whatever by pressing 1 and 2, you are lying, and grossly lying. Now the real issue is that doing a speed clear is bad. That is what ANET deems as trivial. Let me ask all of you this.... after playing for 4 years, like some of us have, at what point in the game should I feel that I have accomplished what I should have, in that time? Who decides? Other players? Should it take me 1.5hrs to clear underworld with a team or should it take me 4hrs with a "balanced" team. What is a "balanced" team? What gear should I have on my best character, one of 10 active characters remind you, to show my experience and expertise? How much time should it take me to earn 75ecto for gloves i find to be cool? Why does Joe Blow care about how many ecto I can earn in an hour with SF, when he could be earning the same amount with a Rit spirit spammer.... which still works in UW, or a 2 man trapper group, which still works, or a 2man 600bond and necro Echo SS, which still works, or a vengeful 330 rit, which again still works, or a vengeful warrior, zealous balth derv, 55 necro (cept for the dhuums), 105 mesmer, man.. the list is pretty damn long... So.. anyways... with all these options and more (check pvx-wiki if you need ideas, they have TONS) to farm your own ecto.. why do people care so much about how much an SF sin farms? 1) They probably sucked at perma sin and have been jealous, or 2) They probably suck at multiple professions and hate life for not finding a nitch that works for them to make equally as much ecto, or 3) they are unhappy with the in game economy or inability to be successful in it, or 4) are simply miserable people that have to be negative, or 5) are self absorbed and think everything that affects them is controlled by everyone else around them (ie:I want to buy that eternal blade, but only perma sins get those, and they only sell for 100+ecto /shake fist angrily at sins), or 6) all of the above. Who knows? Ultimately, I have plenty of other toons, myself, that I can continue to farm ecto on. Hell, I made 10 ecto in relatively short time, using the newly nerfed SoS in Underworld right after the update =). But it is sad that so many people have invested their time and emotion in to this profession.  Some people play to relax and escape reality.  Some folks enjoy the idea of being skillfull, while others enjoy being rich in the game, while others enjoy helping other players or leading guilds and alliances.  Either way, the fact is many people have invested in to their assassins, and many of them feel a considerable loss.  How many hours did people put in to their titles, faction, or ranks primarily based on a character that has been drastically changed?  How much fun is it to rank up your 5th character due to the nerf bat swinging yet again?  It sucks and it sucks for everyone.  If anyone received such a drastic nerf to their favorite profession, they are going to be upset about it. It's not rocket science. To the people that blame perma-sins for the prices of ecto.. you are dellusional.. ecto has been overfarmed since before Perma SF was even a thought. I should know, I monk farmed it myself many times, and yes, that's before Factions was even a youtube video clip. It will always be farmed... it's ecto. That's like saying.. man.. why do people like Money so much IRL?.... ummm because it has value and is used to buy things? I know it's a very long post, and apologize so I'll sum it up with this....

If people are sad because of the nerf, let them vent and be sad. Try to provide positive encouragement or maybe some ideas on what they could do to improve their situation, or perhaps, if you don't have anything nice to say, then stfu. If someone orders a cheeseburger at Mcdonald's and asked for no onions, and gets one with onions... I'd expect them to take it back and get another. I am not going to stand in line and try to convince them that they are dumb noobs for eating cheeseburgers anyways, while I wait to buy my milkshake. I'll mind my business and get my milkshake. If that customer is getting rude with the clerk because it had onions, I am not going to chime and say stfu or go to Burger King cause that's how you get shot in L.A. Anyways.. this has gone waaaay off topic. Assassins are pretty useless now. Anything that an assassin can do or kill solo or in a team, another profession can do better, and some of them use assassin as a secondary prof and do WAY better. At least I have other options, but some folks don't, and have completely wasted their time and money on an aspect of the game that has been buried. For those of you, I understand your loss, and it sucks. My assassin just retired, so I feel your pain. Try an Ele... those are very good alternatives. If the timesink is too much to bear, for ranks, skills, and faction.... sorry man. Assassins are decent in pvp, you could always try that =).. Assacasters ftw!... but for PVE.. ya man... I'd rather farm it with my ele or rit, how else am I going to pay for my 1+th set of elite armor? But if you are done with Guildwars, I don't blame you... maybe try City of Heroes.. that game owns... but if you hate NCSOFT all together now, then WoW is the place to go.  Millions of people are playing that one.. they gotta be doing something right... but be warned.. they swing a pretty nerf bat too sometimes. Lawrenz 10:24, 27 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree that SF was used in the wrong way but it was also used for good (outpost running) so I think a better change would of been to keep it exactly how it was BUT add the new “You cannot deal more than 5...21...25 damage with a single skill or attack.” But change that to “You cannot deal any damage with skills or attacks.” Would that not cut out all this SC as it would now need caster to do the killing and monks to heal the caster yet still allows permas to run players to other towns and out posts--→[ » Atlantis29 User Atlantis29 Sword.png  (talk)« ]← 11:14, 27 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The problem with that is you would still have an overpowered tank and runner. Your suggestion does seem to comply with Anet's tenet of what balance is (sacrificing offense and defense to scale power), but let's be clear that invulnerability is still invulnerability no matter how you package it. It ignores the whole idea of balance. This is why skills like Obsidian Flesh and Spell Breaker were also balanced. Speed Clears was not the sole focus of this balance; Anet itself explains that this is setting precedent for what is reasonable and what is unreasonable. Skills like the above mentioned had no business existing. Like any mad amount of power, it was ubiquitously adopted and abused. Xiaquin Crystal_Snowflake.png 03:31, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

ok for all you dumb people out there ...what do you really thing Sf was for.. i hear all this u can kill everything walk around not dying blah blah...but in all reality who do you know used sf for anything but "farms" its not like u could load up sf and do every mishion thru-out the game..id like to see these people who say it was so overpowered to start in factions and solo the entire campaing...since sf was so overpowered there should be 1000 posts by the end of the week saying how you did...if not then you should realize that sf was not some super powered skill that u could load up all the time it was to FARM...and nothing is wrong with that. (period) You must be new here. You should read up on the simplest rule of Guild Wars Wiki. As for the rest, all old arguments, all disproven gratuitously, numerous times, and I'm not going to bother doing it again for someone who didn't even bother to sign and probably won't comment again. --Kyoshi (Talk) 07:33, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * "for all you dumb people out there"

Section 5
ok so maybe i shouldnt call them dumb..but idk seems if we whine enough we can get things done on gw so whine whine whine..thats what these ppl did to get sf nerfd and yet here we are talking about y it was or who started it and blah blah in short all MMO's have a farm in them idc what game or who made it ..so y does gw think they should remove builds that r based on farming like i said in previous post u can nor could u ever start a sin and perma the entire game so y did gw feel they should remove farmers?? they r still an MMO right?? and i dont have a tag because i really dont plan on staying if it isnt fixed :)
 * You shouldn't call them dumb directly, but feel free to call their opinions and mothers dumb. And please sign even though you don't have an account, as a courtesy to other editors who read the conversation. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 09:02, 28 February 2010 (UTC)


 * OK im gonna say this the problem anet saw was that if you wanted to make money in many different ways and easy the soultion to all players was make a sin and be rich!!!, if you dont believe me then why so many sins everywere? or why so many players complaining? And i repeat again GUILD WARS IS A PVP FOCUSED GAME asassins suck there? NOOOOO so stop complaining and yes i used obby tank but guess what the fact i cant use it same way again dosent mean im gonna quit is a game for god sake have guts!!! And unless you have ALL and i mean ALL titles maxed, all Hall of monuments full with one character please dont say you have nothing to do because you have but you say you dont cause you are LAZYYYYY GW= PVP and some PVE and guess what it has a lot of PVE Today we tried Murakais with no assasin and guess what was fun  to beat her with no runner involved. Thats what arena net wants TEAM PLAY AGAIN IN ELITE AREAS no more runs, no more solos, is an online game YOU PLAY WITH OTHERS if you dont like to team up go play PS3 or other console, and if you thinking on going WOW to play be warned they NERF TO they dont like overfarm there and they dont like solos there, and you wil pay rent for it hope they dont close the servers and all that money go to trash.... Ivy Thunder Goddess 4:35 AM 28 February 2010
 * 1) Many sins were not rich, in fact, tons of people made sins and ended up poorer than they were when they started. Look at all the sins running around in collector gear.  I personally got rich from a combination of monk, sin, ranger, and rit.  I still get ecto with my rit and monk, and am doing so right now, post nerf.  2) There are lots of every class everywhere, not just sins.  I saw way more monks, mesmers, ele's, rangers, rits, and necros in grotto waiting for a single sin to run the team for a VSF FARM.  I saw WAY more warriors, monks, rits, rangers, and necros waiting on TOA for a FOWSC run.  I've seen way more different other professions when looking for SC's but the majority of the time, it's the same damn sins running.  Most of the sins that I happen to run with in a group I already know.  It's the warriors and the necros and the rits that are always the new faces.  So many of them out there.  But the sins are the same, at least the nonfail sins tend to be the same ones.  There have been times where only 2 sins were running VSF for seperate teams of 8 while 3 to 5 other teams were waiting for one sin to join, or picked up a noob sin, failed, and rage quit and started back at Grotto LFG again, waiting for yet another sin.  3) Where on the box does it say that the primary playstyle for Guildwars is PVP?  My box says it offers both.  So if I prefer to play PVE instead of PVP is that ok since I paid my money and you didn't buy this for me?  4) Assassins are still good in pvp but I prefer PVE, see the line above, and since this is a feedback forum about the SF nerf, it looks like a good place to provide feedback, positive or negative.  5) People are complaining about the loss, and you doing Murakai's is your business.  I am farming UW and doing missions for alt characters, that's my business.  Maybe people are upset that their main character is not as fun anymore and now they have to put in a major time sink for what they find important.  What THEY may find fun or important may not be what you like, so maybe they dont want to max out every title or every rank.  Hell most of those titles are utterly useless and I will never have interest in it, I prefer to farm and buy cool things.  Again, I hope that's ok since I spent my money on the game and I am pretty sure you didn't buy this game for me, did you? 6) The inclusion of the nerf was to create BALANCE.  I don't agree with the level of BALANCE they seek considering now the SIN in PVE is not as useful as other professions with a SIN secondary, but meh, doesn't matter much, I am still farming with my sin and other chars.  But to assume the nerf was to make me play with OTHERS is false.  If they wanted to make sure people play with other... then buh bye heroes... buh bye henchmen.... remove Normal mode and make it all hard mode, and increase every enemy health by 200%.  I bet even then... we'll still be able to solo /laugh.  Just because a company makes an MMO, doesn't mean they want you to play with ONLY other people online.  If that was the case, we wouldn't have heroes and henchmen to begin with.  And btw.. your example of Murakai's is horrible.  WAY more monks ran Murakai's than assassins. Lawrenz 02:40, 1 March 2010 (UTC)


 * GuildWars has always been about knowing your class, what it (dis)advantages where, and what you could and could not do. Ursan wasn't balanced, but at least everyone could be an Ursan, and everyone still needed to know their other builds pretty well in order to play the game on a high level. With Shadow Form came a flood of noobs and ignorant players. They didn't know how to play an assasin or how to work in a team. They just made an assasin and copied a build that was run by so many others. They didn't recognize a good build if you showed it to them: if it hadn't shadow form, RoJ or a N/Rt in it was considered a bad build. They didn't know squat about building a build, and where all stuck in the same paradigma. So how are you now, Shadow Form runner?


 * Sure, you made loads of cash with your runs, but all that gold was nothing but worthless junk as the price of almost every endgame item went through the roofs. You didn't enjoy the game anymore. Never stood a moment still to enjoy the environment, or the game design.
 * I'm sure that, even as you read this, you don't have an idea of what I'm talking about.


 * So the curtain has finally fallen over their SF reich and soon players will point the SF runners out of the real PvE players.
 * It's not so hard, as the standard SF runner has forgotten how to play a long time ago, or simply never learned to play at all.
 * I hope that the day dawns that they get insight in the game, and learn the essence of it: Teamwork and Builds.


 * Until then, let's enjoy the view as thousands of them flee from the game, frustrated because they don't have an unfair edge over others anymore. Let's enjoy the game once more, at least until someone finds another way to break the game, and we fight for justice once more. AidanReed 12:34, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Um... Teams of only SF players being the only teams available in UW etc is probably a good reason for this update. You complain about having to be told what to do in a team, but then you complain about UW. I like this nurf because it will hopefully allow more than just permas to get UW pugs. There is no way that you can justify your assertion that SF allows you to "Do your own thing." as the SF sins them selves are all doing the SAME THING which SOMEONE ELSE TOLD THEM about. (96.60.114.138 17:50, 28 February 2010 (UTC))Sorry wasn't logged in..(Il Spiderpig Il 18:24, 28 February 2010 (UTC))

Section 6
ok as far as unfair advantage goes...hmm lets use example 1.raptors wars take 15secs 32kills..perma 2.5 mins..both had chance of death hmm still seems war/nec has a advantage quick nerf every skill on that bar..example 2. UW yes when we went into Uw 1 sin was taken we didnt do 8 sins and truthfully the sin died alot just like any other class down there even the war tanks i personally didnt abuse sf it made the game more enjoyable in certain areas i mean i like working my way thru elite areas as much as any1 but for ppl to single out sf because of certain areas they can do..it just doesnt make sence..thats like saying this is what gw wants for us*all attack skills/spells can do maximum 1pnt of damage heals can no longer affect party members will that make gw hard enough will i not be a noob then..my point is when will they just let the players play and not nerf skills when maybe they could idk make new quests or mask for the same old holiday crap just a thought

For all the people saying team work/ party up, have you ever been in a group where one person was an idiot? Do you not realize the complete waste of time that can be? UW can take up to 4 hours with a perma/sin pulling groups but 1 second for a jerk to send all party members back to restart. same with all VQ's in HM. A person should be able to complete the game whether there are people on or not. It should be the preferance of each person if and when they chose to interact and still get major injoyment out of the game "they" purchased. I have been playing for about 3 and a half years and never even completed a dungen until about 6 months ago with a perma/sin. Main reason you ask, tried to with hero's henches not doable and other teams/guilds would not let you join up in fear u would kill their own go at it. Being in a small guild, Shadow form allowed the use of a runner to "help" out others in need of distant towns or a farm for some quick cash to loan or use. When you make a game so hard or time consuming that it becomes frustrating then its not fun any more. Some of us play after work, some after school, so time is important! My point is if it takes 3 months to make 60k for one characters elite armor what about the other 8-9 characters on our account? Whether u realize it or not more people bought "Factions" just to make a Sin so they could farm. So why kill a good money maker for the future I dont get it?

The main arguement I hear is "its overpowering" and "unfair" to that I say to who? the monsters u run by or stand and kill? isnt the object of the game to kill the monsters? What difference does it make how u kill them or who is with u when u kill them? Not to PvP cause it was already nerfed for that. To me, shadow form equalized the playing field of farming not the other way around. A small time player like me could farm just like the rich and famous so again why did you nerf it? Now only large guilds will farm and control the prices of the game leaving me once again out of the loop. SIGNED: THE IRON DR (PS- Please change it back)


 * Lawl. Learn to play with good people. If you can't get enough good people together for the elite areas, you shouldn't be there. It's like GvGing with heroes. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 03:41, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Armand...to be polite...BULLPUCKEY. Get off your elite high horse. We all payed the same for this game and have the right to access ALL areas of the game. Did you ever think that some people, for physical reasons, are unable to get together with large "Guilds" due to headset requirements and ventrillo, etc. which is unusable if you are, for example, deaf or hearing impaired. Some play with family members in the same room; so, you are saying that people who prefer to play alone, or with a small group of family or friends that they know are mature and wish to play "face-to-face" with aren't allowed in your special areas. Again I say...BULLPUCKEY. I have spent as much, if not more, than most of my own, not mommy's or daddy's, money on this game, and Anet needs to keep in mind that all of players that spend money on their games deserve equal access or they may lose a large chunk of their sustainable income. It would stand you well to learn the same. -Rabb --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.209.52.142 (talk).
 * Besides PvP action where vent is the quickest form of communication and saves a lot of time, vent really isn't needed for PvE elite areas. We used to have a deaf kid in our alliance that mainly ran with our team. He farmed Tombs, The Deep, UW, and FoW with us. It's not hard to communicate in GW PvE through typing and after you've gone through something a few times, it becomes obvious what you have to do. I don't quite understand what you mean by sustainable income however, unless you mean future purchases from the NCStore. If not, ANet has all the money they are going to get from said player/customer and threats such as "Leaving for WoW", etc. are basically futile. &mdash; Gares 16:38, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I was not referring to the SF nerf in particular; although I did not farm, I did enjoy the invulnerability proffered by SF to get through some of the missions, but find the new form to be very playable and actually find that I do not die quite as frequently. However, I grow weary of Anet's continued nerfing of abilities, especially after the ranger nerfs and, I re-reiterate, NERFING one of THREE available pre searing skills was CRAP. Perma pre rangers or those going for Legendary defender, have that skill basically eliminated because most bows do more damage than power shot once you hit 10th level. That particular nerf was not planned out. Sustainable income - Simple I've been in business, particularly the computer and programming business since 1983, if you keep alienating the customers that continue to give you their hard earned cash, you will soon not have that cash. Many of us play after work, on the weeken, etc, and do not have time, nor the patience, to try to group up to play a dungeon. And THAT was my main point in my response, -- The entire game is and should remain available to all players and the attitude that "you must be in a full group" is inane and in the case of the comment that started this thread, elitist. I really don't give a celestial rat's tail end about farming, the only time I even messed around with it was when Nicholas wanted those dang saurian bones, and even then, I "farmed" with my wife, daughter and 5 heroes in tow. But after four years...Fine tweak PVP all you want, but leave PVE alone already. And as to leaving for WOW; I carefully review my messages above (There are more than one), and no where did I say I would "quit" or leave for a bloody pay to play cartoon piece of waste. The only statement I said was that after spending a significant amount of cash over the past 13 months, Anet's continued screwing up things to please whiners leads me to not want to spend more money with them or spend money on GW2 when/if it ever comes out, in spite of Felicia Day's role as an Asuran. I'm tired of the whining and the Yaying, but I am equally tired of the unreasonable nerfing. - Rabb
 * Regarding the "leaving for WoW" scenario, I did not mean you. I was using it as an example. I had skimmed this update (massive boredom) counting how many SF, 600/Smite, OB whiners said they were leaving for WoW or another game, and it was an appropriate response to the fact that ANet should not be threatened considering they will not lose any money if people leave over this update. I would take into consideration the ramifications of an update like this on the upcoming GW2, but the majority will get over this update and forget about it long before the announcement of a GW2 release date. &mdash; Gares 13:56, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Just a couple of things (which, after the deluge of other comments, will likely be drowned out... but at least I tried): If you didn't think SF needed a nerf, you just had to go to one of the pre-nerf centers for permas (ToA, DoA, Tombs, etc.) and count the A/E's and A/Me's present. One night, I was in a full district with nothing but 'sins, just waiting for a monk to come along and SoH for them. When something becomes that level of "glaringly obvious," something will be done about it, fair or unfair.

99% of the reason I deleted my assassin was the perma phenomenon. I have a stack of builds I was never allowed to use with a party (based on Siphon Strength, WotA, and Seeping Wound before it was a super-skill) simply because all anyone wanted was a perma. Hell, my warrior gathered dust because I really didn't have a use for him, other than to look big and intimidating. If this update actually does what it should do (open areas to new people, from all professions) then I'm behind it.

That doesn't excuse the behavior of the "OMG YAY SF NERFED!!!! NAO U LERN2PLAY or GTFO!!!" crowd, because people like them are the entire reason SF became popular in the first place. When you have nothing left to do in-game except UW, FoW, etc. and your only options are a.) badly broken build that only the original creator can use, because only he can see the skill synergies (and if you tamper with it so you can use it, you face the Wrath of Supernerd!!!) or b.) perma, then it stops being a choice, doesn't it?

The argument that "if you don't have a group to go with, then GTFO!" or "If you haven't done this, GTFO!" sounds like "I've been there, and done that, and now YOU CAN'T!!! BWAHAHAHA!!!!" and drives people to find broken ways to do the things they're locked out of. Instead of bashing those people as "scrubs" and rubbing their faces in the ashes of their builds, take some time and teach them how to do it "properly". Otherwise, all you have done is add to the problem with your apparent indifference (or laziness).

Oh... and FFS... if you DO find a nice-but-OP'd build to do something, ' DO NOT POST IT ON YOUTUBE FOR THE DEV TEAM AND THE ENTIRE WORLD TO SEE!!! ' ...that is, unless you want the build to face the nerf-hammer in the next update.Ash Dragonshadow 16:26, 1 March 2010 (UTC)


 * OK OK maybe someone there misundertod me i didnt say you have no right to enter elite areas i tried to say is lot more fun to do them with teams and using youre own builds (actually one of the biggest fun of the game) instead of being forced to do one build, and if you dont believe me go to elite zones and search a group with a build that is not in PVXWIKI "good builds" you will be kicked out of the team inmediatily, and other stuff i said was this: GW even if it has or will have more PVE stuff ALWAYS was PVP more oriented even the new GW2 is gonna be PVP oriented and the fact you dont like PVP for youre own reasons is comprenhesible i didnt liked it at first time with all that teens roaming around like dumbs insulting new players, but i tried and guess what i liked it, is my right no matter what they say to play pvp, but my point is if you dont like PVP is youre right, but you gotta know is at least the 55% of the game, so if you dont want to play it; is like saying you like cakes but no chocolate flavored ones but you still insisted on buying one big chocolate cake??? you gotta admit part of youre supposed "boredom" is youre fault right? you buyed PVP oriented game but you dont like PVP? then you say is all others fault: nerfers,players; and company, that you dont have fun??? mmm something is weird there if you say so check youre ideas of gaming first before buying a game, and if you buyed this i gotta say GREAT game, admit if you dont like monkey bussines (titles,armors,parties,useless items,testing other professions) then not even other online game like this is for you, even World of Flinstones is full of it, Besides i agree all people has the right to choose, if you say sins are usseles now youre totally wronggg, they are useful use youre brain make new builds, youre like those saying mesmers are usseles cause youre to lazy to try em in a different way than the recipe of PVX WIKI, TRY NEW BUILDS, AND NOW IS YOURE CHANCE TO KICK ALL THOSE PVP "PROS" TRY PVP, IS FUN, GAME HAS LOT TO OFFER YOU JUST HAVE TO TRY AND FIND IT. Ivy Thunder Goddess 22:00, 1 March 2010 (UTC) Ivy Thunder Goddess 15:59 pm 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * not sure how you establish the designation "PVP Oriented," the majority of the game is PvE oriented, team play against the environment. There are what 5-10 PvP missions throughout the game? and the arenas and such. Great, enjoy! I've played a little, but my wife and I try to buy and play games that can be played co-op. Cuts down on the in-house arguing.

@Rabb: You're dumb. You don't get to win UW because you rolled your face on the keyboard. You don't get to play anywhere and do anything just because you happen to have access to an account. Some areas are actually designed to be hard and require skillful play to defeat, but that's such a foreign concept to GW PvE that people like yourself exist. Also, learn to spell. -- Armond Warblade 23:58, 1 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Look Armond, I did not personally attack you, - unless you felt the comment about mommy's and daddy's money was too close to home - only your elitist statement; However, before you tell someone with a Master's degree in English to "learn how to spell," you might want to make sure your own writing is correct; oh yeah, there isn't enough of it to tell, just a couple of non-constructive statements. There are no misspelled words in my writing, and at second read, I see only one typo (weeken for weaken - which I will not edit); But that is off topic. First, I don't just "have access" to the game, I paid my hard earned money for it, just like every other player. When I purchased the game I didn't see a disclaimer that read "Some areas of the PvE game are only accessible by l33t's, a status you must establish by frequent substitution of words such as 'lawl' for 'lol.'" Second, I also do not see signs hanging in the Temple of Ages which announce "Abandon Hope All Noobs Who Enter Here." My argument with you was the elitist nature of your statement, which you still maintain. For your information, little ol' I and my wife have beat the entire game, and are working on it with new characters/classes and finishing up most of the Hard mode areas. The only time I face mash is when I read the poor grammar and spelling of people (not necessarily you) who should probably be reading a little instead of playing a game. And my argument was not that you get to "win" anything, only that it was available to anyone who purchased the product - Of course you have to play through the game. Name one PvE area of the game that a diligent player, playing either alone (usually with henchmen or heroes) or with a very small group, "shouldn't be able to access." - Rabb --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.209.52.142 (talk).


 * *typo. <font color="#A55858">Misery  14:39, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I actually hadn't noticed the "mommy and daddy" comment; I'm glad you pointed it out, and thanks for the laugh.
 * Also, try all of the PvE areas. GW is a team game, after all.
 * Oh, and you're still dumb.
 * -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 05:18, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Section 7
OK in response to this post above me, the idea that pvp is %55 of a game is bullshit. Maybe it is for you, but not for the rest of us , neither should it be. It's ok once in while, but i see way more people in PVE than i ever see in PVP. The attitude most of you " elitist"  players  carry around ruins it for the other %95 of the game population. The recent nerfs to SF, Cripshot , and many other good skills has caused alot of players( as seen here in this post) to question Anet's devotion to their game and their customers. And dipshit, arrogant little bastards like you are at the source of all of it. If Anet really wanted to give a new and exciting gameplay experience they would add something to the game. I could see why they dont, being that GW2 is coming out in about a year or so. So, if the game itself is no longer important enough to add much if any content to, why nerf it ? They aren't helping anyone. They haven't improved any gameplay. And, if all you whiners knew your own character as well as i know my rangers , my warrior , my necro, my rit , and my sin , you wouldnt have to worry about  SF or any other quote " OP skill". The real issue is you babies can't cope when someone who plays 4 or 5 hours a day is better than you. I think this whole nerf came down to someone being jealous of good players. OH, BY THE WAY , I DON'T , NEVER HAVE , NEVER WILL use a PVX build. They are mostly outdated anyway. If any of you really did know anything about the game you would know most farming builds  on there were outdated a year ago. So, instead of all of the whining , why don't you help us get all these nerfs lifted , and we all can enjoy our respective fave builds again. I know i would like to see Anet and it's " elitist " little posers get caught up with the rest of it's players  and come do some VSF, some DOA, and maybe kill a shit ton of charr just for giggles. FOR ASCALON AND THE WALL ! ~ Vampire33
 * Guild Wars is a pvp game, and the fact is, you can troll your way through most of pve without thinking. If you want to consistently win in pvp, that (shouldn't be) the case. You claim the issue is that pvp'ers are whining because pve'ers are better. You'll find that generally you are wrong. Pvp requires much more skill. That's just the truth, there's nothing you can do about it. Also, pvp'ers do pve as well, and they probably do it better than you. You say that this didn't improve gameplay at all. How? Gameplay exists (a little more than it did before anyway) now. Pressing 1 2 3 and repeating is not gameplay. Bottom line, stop QQing because you can't turn on god mode any more. Also, NPA. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig2.jpg|19x19px]] 23:24, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I just love it when someone says "it takes more skill to PvP." :| I think it's bullshit, but it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling inside. /sarcasm


 * Point-blank, it takes about the same "level" of skill for both, but the skill-sets don't entirely overlap. Each requires a strong working knowledge of your class and how it fits into the team. The only real difference is that PvP requires more seat-of-the-pants tactical thinking (people are unpredictable), while PvE requires more strategic planning (vq'ing, for example, requires knowing the area, the foes you'll face, and planning for about an hour or so of continual battle).


 * Similarly ridiculous is the idea that PvPers are better players in PvE than dedicated PvE'ers. I've seen highly-ranked PvP'ers in HM missions totally screw over an entire party trying to play like it's RA, them blame the rest of the party upon re-zoning to the mission outpost. The mind-set is different, and it throws you off if you don't adjust (and yes, that goes both ways).


 * Oh... and the existence of PvE says that GW is for both PvP and PvE. PvP/PvE splits for skills say that GW is geared for both. "It's for PvP only" is an invalid argument on both counts.


 * ...speaking of which... if they pulled the split from SF, and replaced it with the PvE version, would that kill its balance? Think about it... Ash Dragonshadow 04:59, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The fact is, Mike O' Brien, president of Anet and one of the founders of the game, has been quoted saying that GW is a competetive game. It's all over the wiki. You can argue all you want, but it's the truth. Also, you aren't required to learn to dodge projectiles, chiizu step, recognize skill sounds/animations, watch a million different characters at once, or even pay much attention to your enemies in general pve. You can zzz through it, I do it just fine all the time. You've seen a pvp player or 2 screw up, big deal, does that make pve players immortal? No. Go pug anything and take only pve players, and see how it goes. Maybe that one time you saw a high ranked player do something stupid, but in general, rank determines skill. That's why rank exists. It's how experienced players find other experienced players. Anyway, the fact of the matter is, to be a good pvp player, you are required to have a higher knowledge of gameplay than a pve only player. That's just how it is, get over it. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig2.jpg|19x19px]] 05:10, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Competitve != PvP exclusively. PvE can be just as competitive.
 * If it were a single, isolated incident I would not have brought it up. It's a TREND. All that "higher knowledge" of gameplay doesn't translate to PvE in the way you think it should, or, indeed, the way those "PvP pros" thought it should. They don't mind their aggro, or watch patrol patterns, or charge deep into a mob and expect the monks to charge in after and heal them. Point-blank, they suck at PvE. Pretending that they don't doesn't magically make them any better at the game in general.
 * Finally, I DO PUG just fine w/ PvE-only players all of the time. I even party up with total newbs (players with no titles... yes, they still exist!!!) and still have a better success rate that I do with PUGs that have any PvP "pros" in them. That's just how it is, get over it.(And forgot to log in... doh!)Ash Dragonshadow 08:35, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you do any PvP at all, Ash? RA or AB, maybe? [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 08:36, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * While i disagree that all pvp players are better than pve players, the sad fact is that in a general census, pvp players>pve players. Yes, there is the minority of pve players who actually are legitimately good at the game, but they are hidden among thousands upon thousands of absolutely terrible players. You also fail to realize that any player in the game can roll discord and cspace with frequent facerolling and beat 95% of pve with just h/h. 98.248.90.248 08:38, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Look up the definition of competitive. If it's not PvP, it can't be competitive, not in Guild Wars. It's the definition of the word. Get the facts straight first, please. Your own experiences are subjective at best. For example, I've found that PvE-ing with my guild (top 200 GvGers, and others who have been on the ladder) is far better than pugging with PvE-only players. Hence, that part of your argument is void. King Neoterikos 08:41, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Playing with your guild will always be better than pugging, regardless of situation. Despite your thoughts, pve is competitive in a different way than pvp. In pvp, the goal is to win. Time is important, but not the defining factor. In pve, this is quite different. Anyone can win in pve. Because of this, the goal of pve is not just to "win", but to win quickly. Clearing out an area in a faster time than anyone else is considered winning in pve, while winning a gvg match in the fastest time ever doesn't exactly matter a whole lot. 98.248.90.248 08:45, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Competitive is playing against other people directly, I'm sorry I didn't make that clear. Unless there is a ladder for dungeons runs, etc (like challenge missions, or GvG), then PvE is not competitive. King Neoterikos 08:51, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Whilst there is no serverside ladder, a competition is formed by screening completion times and competing against other guilds/groups to get the best time. The old fastest completion time thread in screenshot exposition on guru was plenty competitive. Saying something isn't competitive just because it's not direct, head to head, physical involvement is like saying every time-based sport in the world isn't competitive. 98.248.90.248 09:00, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Sigh, you need to re-read what I wrote. Stop contradicting yourself. Those time-based sports are competitive, for the same reason challenge missions are. Look it up. Stop making stuff up. Start using facts. Then we can talk. King Neoterikos 09:26, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * This argument is as old as GW. It has never been resolved, and it never will be. Everyone should just accept the fact that the GW playerbase is divided (fairly evenly imo) between PvP players, who are convinced they are better than everyone else, and PvE players, who are equally convinced they are better than everyone else. I like to think that this game has room for both (though one of these days, the split is going to implode this wiki, I'm absolutely sure of it). The fact that there are just as many PvE players who really wanted to see Shadow Form killed in the same way we wanted to see Ursan Blessing killed proves that not only is there a PvP/PvE split in the playerbase, but also a split in general play styles. Instead of trying to shout each other down (never works btw) just accept the differences and go enjoy the game in what ever way makes you happy. While I feel for the farmers (a little) I really have no idea what all the cryin is about, since those who have been using these builds for as long as they have, undoubtedly have stacks and stacks of ectos in their inventory that have just doubled in value, making you all ridiculously rich beyond the wildest imaginations of the rest of us. Enjoy the benefit and buy yourself a bunch of cool shit. Then if you can't find another way to exploit one of the many imbalances left in the game, you can at least say it was fun while it lasted, and you got a LOT of cool shit. It's all pixels anyway guys.... get over it. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  15:05, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * 10/10. -- Cyan [[Image:User Cyan Light sig.jpg|19px]] 15:13, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll let this drop... but not without clarifying something: yes, I PvP on occasion (AB, JQ, mostly FA, but with some RA and Codex). I find it (*SHOCK! GASP! HERESY!!!*) boring... I never was sure why, but there it is.
 * What I have been saying is that PvE and PvP may take most of the same skill-set to be effective, but some of the skills necessary to be successful at one do not translate well to the other. It's why a PvE-only player (I'm talking about a Legendary Guadian-caliber player) can drag an FA group down, and why a PvP-only player (high Gladiator rank) can epic-fail a NM mission: there is an adjustment, whether you admit it to yourself or not.
 * ...and I'm STILL curious what would happen if the PvE version of SF were to replace the current PvP version. Cheers!!!Ash Dragonshadow 18:51, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You're not helping the case of the pvp'ers with an attitude like that, Reckoning. Anyway, Shadowform is dead, the "OMG SHADOWFORM" crap on every update page is over and everyone will forget about it like they forgot about Ursan.  Why aren't they happy that the ectos they farmed are now worth practically 2x as much?  OH MAYBE GREED OR SOMETHING  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:52, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * ...or, maybe, it's because they haven't doubled in price. Post-Farmer's Black Thursday© (henceforth, it shall be abbreviated to FBT© for convenience's sake, and all royalties from its use shall be paid to me in obsidian shards... LOL), the price has actually dropped from 9.5K (on Friday) to 8K (5 mins. ago), something that basic economics says shouldn't be happening. Either a new and powerful farming method has already been discovered (I know one, but I ain't tellin'...) or someone is intentionally manipulating the market downwards (tricky, but doable... if this is the case, it cannot last, because demand will catch up and overtake supply very soon). Meanwhile, I'm holding on to my (alternatively-farmed) ectos.Ash Dragonshadow 16:22, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

umm not greed try boredom...for this whole pvp/pve thing the only differenc i see is that pvp like to say they r the best i came from diablo2 with about 15 friends 2 years ago to play gw after 5 months we divided beacause of the whole pvp is king crap..builds are builds there is allways something out there to stop opposite builds and yes i have made a few in my days but i am still modest enough to say "I SUCK AT GW" even if u ask most of my pve friends on here they would laugh but i go into a pvp section and say those things i would never get the chance to pwn true pvp'ers ..in short any1 with any kind of smarts can throw some skills together and fight some1 else..all u need to know is what to counter what with and how to run the bar u create and yes that applys to pve as well its not that some1 is better or worse then u at this game its how u play it..i liked my sf solo farm/sf sinway clears/sf doa type areas/600 dungeons/so on and so on.. and i thought that was the whole idea of making a game or in any type of buisness..."TO PLEASE NOT JUST ONE BUT ALL PLAYERS" so i dont think nerf'ing skills is good for players who used them or made the skill bars that was the point..to be able to do certain areas of the game..so when we make new builds (even if we use the new sf) how long untill they say that its to powerfull?? bassicaly imo..pve should be left alone skill wise..feel free to change pvp to keep it fresh..in pve i would say try to make new event mish's or like u did 4th year traveler/zquests instead of losing players to silly nerf wars ty and sorry this was so long...WORM THE DUDE
 * If you suck at GW, as you say, you should not be able to farm elite areas on "Hard Mode" anyway, right? It is called "Hard Mode" after all...  Koda  [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_UT.jpeg‎|19px]]  Kumi  16:47, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Hello Ash. Thankyou for the insightful post.  By my memory which may be faulty I recall ectos being about 4.5k~ pre-FBT (lol).
 * Unsigned guy above Koda, if you're bored because you can't SF anymore, I'm sorry. SF was seen as "the way people do an area" because it was usually the only way to do an area, or it was the way that was most fun, less difficult or yielded the fastest profits.  Not to mention how the content itself is adjusted or "buffed" in order to try to counter such methods, which didn't really do much and instead made such methods even more important to clearing the area.  This doesn't mean SF, 600, or whatever is acceptable.  People think so because it became such a monstrous trend and everyone was doing it.  Now that it's gone, some of those people are lost ("omg i'm deleting my sin", "omg i'm quitting you ruin the fun in the game").
 * This wasn't your typical MMO farming build, SF and its ilk were cataclysmic to the game and ruined end-game and elite areas. As ash said, people are already moving from SF to the next degenerative brand of "mega-farming".  This is bad in my opinion.  A few things need to happen.  Anet needs to: Update elite areas with more creativity, where players can't find exploits that turn the area into a joke; "fix" elite areas to allow decent skilled teams to do them without relying so heavily on a tank or having a huge chance of failure; keep an close eye on the state of the game and be swift and reactive before things like SF get to the point where 50% of the community is threatening to quit becuase they feel that's how the game is meant to be played.  Players need to stop yearning for these ridiculous mega-farm schemes.  I know everyone wants awesomez lootz.  Farming is great.  To be clear, I'm not against farming, such as ecto farming where specialized teams or smaller groups of players enter an area and clear certain parts for an ecto or something.  I have a problem when the farming builds becoming builds that can flawlessly clear high-end content (with little skill, creativity or true teamwork, to be honest).   The end chests are not meant to be power-farmed by people running the easiest builds ever.
 * Anyway, boredom as an excuse for all the SF-angst is sad. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:24, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Whoa, time out!!! Where did I say people are actually using a "mega-farming" build? (Okay... I just reread what I wrote... I think I lead you to the wrong conclusion, for which I apologize. :| ) I was just speculating on why the price (which, as of 3 hours ago, had dropped to 7.5K) may not be reacting properly to the SF nerf. I was no better than a B-student in economics in college, but I know enough that, when a supply of a product is restricted, the price of that product should increase; instead, it has remained virtually unchanged since FBT© (in fact, according to my son, who has farmed ectos on and off in the past few months, the price has remained unchanged since Dhuum was introduced, when prices went from ~5K to ~8K). Other than a new farming build (the one I use is good only for a small section of the UW, and only in NM... furthermore, there's no way a full group equipped with that build could function as a team), the only other possible way that the price could remain at current levels is by being artificially deflated (either through oversupply of ectos, or through some form of regulation I'm unaware of)(...and I forgot to login again...).Ash Dragonshadow 06:06, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Think about it this way. As soon as the nerf was announced, thousands of players stopped selling any ectos they received. They began stockpiling every ecto, shard, and brace they could get their hands on, hoping for a rise in price once SF was nerfed. This, combined with very few ways to actually get ecto out of the system, are the reason that we won't see an actual increase in ecto prices for a very long time, if at all. 98.248.90.248 04:24, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm going to take a few seconds to summarize the misconceptions about GW, then we can all STFU and be on our merry way.
 * GW was built to be a competitive game. It says so on the box, and the developers have admitted so.
 * GW shifted to support both pve and pvp communities early on, and it worked out.
 * GW currently has 10 times more active pve players than pvp players (not an exaggeration).
 * PvE gets a LOT more content updates than pvp does. In 5 years, aside from full campaigns, pvp has gotten 3 new maps. On the pve side, we've had the BMP, Dhuum, all the festivals, Gaile's GTFO ceremony, tonics, minipets, and the XTH/ZChest (if you can buy it, it's pve).
 * Anet favors neither the pve nor the pvp side of the game, though some updates are more oriented towards one or the other.
 * If it's fun, play it. If it isn't fun, don't play it.
 * Now let's all STFU and do something constructive, like trolling conservapedia. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 04:33, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

And this is why the traders should be converted to the merchant model, with fixed prices for all the mats, runes, insigs & dyes. It prevents player manipulation of the game economy. --173.78.137.190 16:03, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, that's a very bad idea. There are only two ways I can think of that would make that work, and neither of them are very nice:
 * Remove Player Trades: This would force people to use the "official" merchants, but it would also make certain actions (trading items) extremely clunky (I wish to give player A a sword I found; we must party up, go outside, and I need to drop it so A can pick it up... no thanks).
 * Force Players to trade "exact value-for-exact value:" If I promise player A (he's a guildie, so I trust him implicitly ;) ) a certain item for helping me get through the Shards of Orr, he now has to come up with the gold (or an equivalent exchange of some sort) to acquire the item I'm paying him to help me. In essence, he's paying me to pay him to help me... so basically, he's working for nothing.
 * I'll gladly keep the economy (screwed-up as it is) as-is just to avoid those two situations.
 * Aside from that, the current merchant (as opposed to rare material trader) price of Globs of Ectoplasm is 100 gp... so why bother farming them, when I can buy all the ones I need from the merchant for a few platinum (under your proposed model)? That would just dissuade people from using OP'd builds (like SF permas... I knew the original topic was in here somewhere) and use the merchants... unless they're out of stock, forcing you to go farm until they're in stock...
 * ...or, we can leave well enough alone at this point... just a thought.Ash Dragonshadow 16:40, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, const int FILLER_RARE_MATS_SELL_PRICE is 100g (however you want to argue the technical value of that is handled). That doesn't mean an actual price tag couldn't be put on them (as should have been done a long time ago). -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 23:10, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Putting a realistic value in public static int RARE_MATERIAL_PRICE (sorry... I work with Java, and I'm genetically inclined to be a smart-ass, so I couldn't resist xD ) wouldn't make the merchant option any more attractive to players, especially since it's used for high-cost trades. It could be 50gp or 5K, and players would still ignore the merchant under the current system.Ash Dragonshadow 15:34, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Question. Why should merchants ever have to run out of stock? And, maybe I don't understand mechanics as well as some, but such a conversion need not eliminate player-to-player trades and selling. Set prices for trader items at an average of what they've been over the course of the last 5 years for that particular item and leave it at that for the merchant. And encouraging people not to use OP builds as much is a bad thing, Ash? --Nathe 14:43, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Read the "fine print" on the Rare Material Trader: paraphrased, it says "I only have stock that has been sold to me by players." If no one sells to him, he runs out, and players fall back to their farming builds (which have been "declared" to be OP by certain very vocal members of the player base).Ash Dragonshadow 15:52, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Section 8
Any1 else notice that sins can't farm worth shit now? They have to keep a constant enchant buff to even get closer to a dmg reduction, ontop, with their low energy... they won't be able to put on enough offensive skills to take 0 dmg. I rather have the ability have "If a non-assassin skill is used, SF is reduced by 15...5 seconds..." than this crap update. Don't nerf something you can't nerf right the first time anet... I find the necromancer to be more OP than the sin, so why is the sin getting the crap end of the stick? Miekit
 * That was the point, to nerf solo farming with sins who could do everything in one bar. Now you either spec for tanking and can't do much dmg, or take offense instead and rely on a bonder for dmg reduction. ObsiFlesh went the same direction, disabling attacks and reducing energy regen, which I'd confidently say is worse than SForm. Funny how an entire profession revolves around a single skill. >_< [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 11:31, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Eh, sort of. Mesmers (disregarding the abusive builds that have popped up over the last few years) revolve around Diversion and Rangers around Distracting Shot, though, and neither of those are particularly bad things. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 21:36, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Percentage of Mesmers and Rangers running around with those skills on their bars 100% of the time after being created for that sole reason and completely unable to walk 2 steps without them vs. the total percentage of Sins with SF on their bars pre-nerf? Yeah... there might be a common recessive ancestor gene somewhere in there if you look hard. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 01:58, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't talk in extremes, it makes you look bad. I for one never ran a SF sin for normal PvE, and absolutely never in PvP. I know more than a few other people like that, too. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 22:36, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Who said extremes? I asked for a percentage of the total characters of that profession being actively played. Of course there were many players out there who didn't SF-farm with their assassin, but for each one of them, how many did? [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 23:27, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Rit Buffs
Those are PvP too, right? Oh, lord....binding chains.... <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate  <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">02:12, 26 February 2010  (UTC)
 * 3s duration, 15s downtime. Bad.--TahiriVeila 02:14, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually i lied. Dump binding chains + 2 SH on a team pushing under brindge in tombs. Great planning ANet--TahiriVeila 02:15, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, seeping wound in PvP + 1-2-3 daggers is just....evil. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">02:17, 26 February 2010  (UTC)
 * ^ who needs R/A why you can --TahiriVeila 02:20, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

To make matters worse, Binding Chains is bugged atm and does damage whether you move or not. >_> MionShion 04:06, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Boring update is boring
Boring update, needlessly kills BB sins + LoD/smite, unneeded cripshot nerf, finally fixes R/A. Only really cool thing is i'm guess Erf shakuur got some cool animation. Didn't change steelfang after all which is good. Why'd it take 6 months to do this? I expected changes on the scale we saw in the Dec '08 update.--TahiriVeila
 * ITS SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DUMB!!!!!!!!!!! 74.173.234.18 02:15, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * BB sin needed to go. They were everywhere. Cripshot was overpowered. Not it takes a little bit of skill to land a hit with cripshot. Ronjewart

55 Shadow Form Sin Anyone :P Waldir
 * Exciting update is exciting! Many new build possibilities arise. <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Jupiter.jpg|19px]] 02:46, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Not really. Tank and spank gets replaced with ursanway with hammers. R/As get replaced with A/W seeping wound. No more BB sins or smite mes. Boring update is boring, same game is same--TahiriVeila 02:47, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You may do that if you wish, I have some crazy h/h team builds to come up with. <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Jupiter.jpg|19px]] 02:55, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * @OP, BB was meant to be built up with With a Hammer. Not Furious daggers. The ammount of times sins could use it and how fast they built it up was completely overpowered and unfair. It needed a nerf. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  03:25, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * BB sins usually use a spear to build up adren, not daggers. Understood the point though.Karagon 03:30, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Really HORRIBLE bb sins used a spear to build, anyone player with half a brain auto-attacked with vamp daggers in between spikes & mini spikes.--TahiriVeila 12:17, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

There won't be any 55 sinning as the SF damage reduction is the first thing to happen; Protective spirit then reduces damage, so you always take the ten.
 * There's still SH/SoA, Breeze, etc.. Same stuff that works for other 55s. The only difference is the A/Mo will have a maintainable spell breaker in exchange for crippled damage output. 207.30.169.168 19:41, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * How about we see some REAL updates. SF was a great build and props to the person who found it. Lets see some actual gameplay updates, like more Elite Missions, more PvP games (cough cough Capture the flag???), and more community events!!! Enough of this bologna!-- Flaming Renegade  [[Image:User Flaming Renegade Signature.jpg|16px]] 20:41, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

This page
is gonna get soooooo long..... soooooooo fast..... -- <font color="Crimson">Briar  <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  02:22, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Which is really funny b/c they didn't even make any significant pvp changes besides replacing OP R/A with OP A/W seeping wound sins--TahiriVeila 02:22, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Sins have always been OP. Their very concept was OP. Them being OP is actually a success since they were designed to be OP in the first place. Yeah its a bad idea but its a bad idea they did correctly. Which can be good or bad depending on how you look at it. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  02:27, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Giving sins 100% uptime snares in the crit line + dagger skills with built in IAS is retarded--TahiriVeila 02:28, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Did you miss the whole thing about sins being overpowered by design? -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  02:32, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I ignored it because with the exception of jagged + fox fangs sins are pretty underpowered in pvp (especially with backbreaker gone not) b/c they're very easy to shut down and very fragile--TahiriVeila 02:38, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * ... Wow.... -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  02:48, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Honestly what's strong about sins now besides jagged->fox and seeping? Coward sins are alright in RA but still meh everywhere else. WC split sins are okay but take ages to kill a flagger and are incredibly fragile. Shadow prison is nerfed. Shadow steps are nerfed. BB is nerfed. Hidden caltrops is renerfed. Assacasters are nerfed. AoD split sins are nerfed, Deadly arts dagger sins are pretty nerfed. What else is there?--TahiriVeila 02:51, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't suppose Knocklockers are usefull? and if not Flaggers are easy prey for sins. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  02:55, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Palm strike has a 7s recharge now + 4s crip. If you can't pull that crip off before trampling lands or just dshot it you deserve to be knocklocked by a bad skill. WC still isn't very strong, as long as your flagger has a weapon up before he teles you ought to be fine (unless your flagger is getting ganked by like 2 sins and a fire ele in which case he deserves to die). Sins are pretty baed spikers now--TahiriVeila 02:58, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * TBH there is nothing wrong with sins being good splitters.In fact they should be awesome splitters.You don't *need* instagib spikes to be a good splitter you know Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] 12:53, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Earth Shaker
wtf do they mean by this lol. Is there a new animation or something for earth shaker? Is it a joke? 72.15.71.112 02:24, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * My bet would be cool animation--TahiriVeila 02:25, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't understand what they meant as well. I assume the actual skill effect isn't changing? Karagon 02:31, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Screen Now Shakes when you use it, pretty cool. dont know what it looks like when it is used on you tho. Waldir
 * ^ Yup they added the aftershock screenshake. Otherwise no change as far as i can tell--TahiriVeila 02:29, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe it's my new graphics card, but I also see more, darker, dust and a green trail effect behind the hammer. The sound seems the same. The shacking is cool, though it seems to affect only that would be in about spirit range of you. It would be even cooler to shake the whole map, XDMith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 15:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * If the animation did change, shouldn't this be under the Wiki Notes section, because it is not mentioned in the Developer Updates. Wafflepanda 20:21, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It's here so it should stay as is. — piper doesn't talk 20:24, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Auspicious parry
Uhm... Okay im really confused about the new version of this skill... Its activated by only 1 adren, And when it ends it gives at the very least 1 adren.... You know... Im no genious but this kinda sounds like permanent infinite 100% blocks as long as you sit there and mash whatever number you have it set to fast enough. But ANet CANT be that stupid..... right? =/ -- <font color="Crimson">Briar  <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  02:31, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see it as a huge problem, nobody would waste their elite on that. People might troll RA with it, that's the only use I can think of. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig2.jpg|19x19px]] 02:33, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Auspicious parry has a 2s recharge so it doesn't benefit from its end effect--TahiriVeila 02:34, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * whew. Thank god. I was scared there for a sec. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  02:35, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It does benefit from tis end effect if it ends after the 2secs, surely? Of course you can't predict this when you're being attacked often but still, it could self-fuel. Widowmaker 14:48, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * This skill looks freandly to me, I used it when I started to play GW... but then a good warrior tought me that the tactics line is the dead-line (for warrior's anyway). Tiberium 19:05, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Changes
It occurs to me after changing some stuff to ask if there's a policy for leaving stuff the way it is for a while or if someone specific has to make the changes to all the new skill nonsense. Norwegian Thunder 02:41, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Nobody has updated the respective pages yet. Anyone can, but not everyone is playing the game to see exactly what the new stuff says in-game.-- User Vanguard VanguardLogo.png anguard  02:42, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Nope, as soon as things change in game, they can be changed here by whoever wishes to do it. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  02:43, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

GOD DAMNIT ANET
You've taken the fun out of this game, wth? In one update you smash 600/smites and shadow form farmers! why? what was the point? 75.58.126.146 02:59, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I suggest you read the developer update, the skill preview update, Linsey's page or journal, Regina's page or journal, or the guild wars website. They said they were going to do this months ago. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 03:00, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Lets them turn hammer warriors into ursan. Why would you want to play GWs pve anyway? go play WoW if you want PvE, GW is a dedicated PVP game =\--TahiriVeila 03:01, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I couldn't shadow farm for several months now anyway, since Rata Sum likes to crash my computer. So I don't mind anymore.-- User Vanguard VanguardLogo.png anguard  03:01, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Hamar Warz r nao strong and brave!!! =D -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  03:23, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * umm.. since when is farming any fun? --98.127.35.156 03:24, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Since starting PvP is impossible and the entirety of every PvE campaign can be beaten in about 3 days. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  03:31, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Starting pvp isn't impossible because of rank discrimination. It's impossible because there aren't enough interested people to make 2 opposing teams. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 04:05, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * PvP isn't impossible. Ever thought of trying out for guilds? Many "good ones" still recruit. And if you're good, you'll get in. Rank discrimination is an excuse used by bad or lazy players.-- *Yasmin Parvaneh* [[Image:User_yasmin_parvaneh_sig.png]] 04:14, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * So i have to leave my guild (a group of people that i enjoy hanging out and conversing with) so that I can Attempt to join a PvP guild full of people that I dont know anything about or have any desire to learn anything about? I don't think thats very fair. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  04:17, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * If its something you don't desire, then why are you talking about it in a way that seems as if you are on the tail end of that treatment? Why do you care to make an argument about it?-- *Yasmin Parvaneh* [[Image:User_yasmin_parvaneh_sig.png]] 04:27, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Because I'm not a selfish elitist ass? And some people would like to PvP without that arent in a PvP oriented guild? -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  04:32, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm a selfish elitist ass, and I promise you that has nothing to do with getting onto a lot of peoples' friend lists. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 04:36, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I know you are shard. It's the reason I bag on you so much. <3 -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  04:37, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * At least Shard's honest about it... but no matter what ppl might say, the hero title makes it very hard to break into HA unless you have friends and/or a guild who can help you grind up to at least R3. And at the end of the day, there's no way t odistinguish between rank gained by being good, rank gained by being in a good team, and rank gained by grinding. Widowmaker 14:51, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The real reason is because people no longer WANT to get better.The game is 5 years old and pretty much anyone that would have been good by the end of GWI is good already.You can say all you want but fact is people have no clue what skill is.Yet they brag about having it all the time.I've had monks that thought they were good enough cause they could keep up in RA without sweat.I've had mesmers and sins that were proud to have z3 and g2.Guess what they were running.If people would get over themselves I'm pretty sure we would all get better.But as it stands few do Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] 10:31, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

sometimes i go farming after work to relax and unwind sure it's time consuming but it's fun to me... isn't that what games are about...FUN. i dont mind a little nerf and buff here and there, but outright killing a skill. i bought all gw stuff right when each item came out (bout $40 a box at 4 boxes= $160)... you might say i paid to farm the way i want to farm. thats money i cant get back. i know... there are other ways to farm. whatever i've heard it all before. im not spending a dime on guildwars 2 when it comes out. nerf and buff doesn't bother me. spending $160 and having a game quickly turning to crap more and more each day is bothering me. you busy body MF's need to stop F'ing with MY MONEY and give me back the GAME I PURCHASED. this is not GW any more. it is a steaming pile of shit. you might call me a whiner now... but this is the first time i have ever complained about a game online. the only difference between "Shadow Whiners" and the rest of you is that they haven't nerfed your top 20 favorite builds yet. when it gets to that point i wont turn around and call you folks whiners... i'll just say "told you so...". GW2 will go down in a heap of burned cash with no chance of return if anet continues to change all skills in gw1 before it's release. BTW my wife has quit playing GW1, she went back to D2LOD(Beta testing 1.13patch) if you kill anymore of my farming builds i'm joining her and possibly starting dual wow accounts for both of us (she's PVP, i'm farmer, our guild leader is a runner, we are a balanced team). --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Shadow Fan (talk).

Ancestors Rage(PVP)
this skill is armor ignoing in pvp now   proably a bug   and  it spve coutnerpart is worded wrongHitojin 03:10, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Spell Breaker Nerf... but Holy Wrath buffed?
So let me get this stright... did Spell Breaker get Nerfed... but Holy Wrath get buffed with the -10 energy removal? So did this could actually be the new 55-SS, but with 600 Monk??? - SabreWolf 03:19, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You need to keep recasting it. For the purposes of 600/smite, this means a more active smiter (thus, a smiter possibly pulling enemies), or a smiter without 66% of its power. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 03:23, 26 February 2010 (UTC)


 * No. Holy wrath was nerfed. They removed the upkeep ability from it so now it is sorta like an very weak Duncan's Defense in a very weak attribute. This has effectivly removed it from all play in game because no one is stupid enough to take a smiter outside specialty farming. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  03:22, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

No... Holy Wrath can be applied to yourself now without the energy issue... so you can actually farm solo with it. The only thing I see is how fast can 10 attacks be in 11 seconds. 10 Energy is a non-issue. What I am saying is... 600/Smite can be run on 1 person now. - SabreWolf 03:27, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Target other ally hint hint. – User Balistic B d-dark.png<font color="#7777cc">alistic 03:32, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It's obvious to me that you know nothing about 600/smite (which astounds me) so ill spell it out for you. In 600/smite the tank specs into Divine and Prot. The Smiter is the one that specs into smite. This is why its reffered to as a smiter. Trying to combine the energy costs of both Spirit bond and holy wrath would be nearly impossible without energy boosting cons. And split builds are bad at farming. also, what balistic said. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar  [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  03:34, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I have CoF and Feather Farmed a zillions times... I know what 600/Smite does... didn't see the "Target Other" part... well, back to the drawing board of another farming build. I am at work, so I can't look at this update as closely as I would like too in game. - SabreWolf 03:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Please tell me 600/s is absolutely dead? Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 06:13, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Retribution has the same function. So no. Slower. but not dead. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  06:16, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It could conceivably still farm areas with no healers. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 06:19, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, lemme rephrase. Are there going to be people who actually want to play a dungeon now?  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 06:21, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Nope. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  06:21, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Is Nahpui Quarter still do able if the Smite keeps casting Wrath on the 600? Also, these changes did nothing to 330 Rit solo farmers... which I think means that they and 55s are now the king solo farmers now? (and please excuse me... at work, sick and on 2 hours of sleep... I am in a bad way...) - SabreWolf 07:38, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

No Mesmer love still
Oh come on! When I saw Mesmer there I thought it'd be something worthwhile... not a PB downgrade. Previously Unsigned 03:20, 26 February 2010 (UTC)


 * last time they loved mesmers It didnt work out to well. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  03:40, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Buffing one skill (even if it was still useless in PvE) does not a love to mesmers equate. 205.206.140.29 06:37, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * When one (non-elite) skill becomes more powerful at damage than any other skill in the entire game (assuming they have the same basic functions and restrictions) that sounds like some pretty damn good lovin to me. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  06:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Mesmers is one of those professions that work better when you use three attribute lines. Well, more like they are depend too much on Inspiration for energy management. They sure could use some real PvE love, making inspiration something more to help the party, and giving better energy management options for Domination and Illusion. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 15:54, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * First IoP, now Necrosis... Maybe we should remove the fast casting function from Fast Casting it's way too OP. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:31, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, the Necrosis Change hit me, as well. I don't mind the lower DPS, but now it feels just sluggish. It takes as much time as the more powerful hexes (spells at 2s), making it difficult to use interrupts in between two necrosis casts. Heck, if I wanted to use slow (boring) skills, I'd play an Ele. But the reason I really hate it is because it's a collateral nerf from a necro buff (!). As if mesmers were OP and necros too weak. Tub 15:15, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Woe is me I can't abuse fastcasting on already-imba non-primary PvE skills. :'[ [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  16:38, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Still, mesmers aren't terribly useful in PvE in most areas unless you abuse the PvE skills; but even then it's rather meh, compared to other classes abusing PvE skills. -- Lania Elderfire 17:07, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * using my primary attribute for it's intended purpose is called "abusing" now? I'm paying for that attribute by not having soul reaping, thus actually having to pay for Necrosis' mana costs. Of course Necrosis is strong either way, as all PvE-skills are meant to be. It's not like the live team said "Mesmers with Necrosis are OP, we need to do something.". They said "hey, necros are boring, let's buff 'em.", and they made a change that nerfs mesmers.
 * Yes, using your PA to give skills stats that they were never intended to have is called "abusing".
 * Off-topic, but it's not like mesmers have an entire att line devoted to managing energy or anything. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  18:55, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah Raine because this game was never about utilizing both professions. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 18:17, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Alice and Tub, stop making huge logical fallacies and start learning about game balance, please. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 18:29, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * This ranger. Is swinging a scythe.  While in Escape.  Your argument is invalid.
 * Every non-mesmer skill is balanced based on its casting time without fastcasting. Every time a mesmer uses these skills with fastcasting, that balance is tipped pretty badly.  "Yay look at what I can do it's fun!" should go out the window when it's imbalanced (read: FC MoI).  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  18:55, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Same with Assassin dervishes in PvE; way better than actual dervishes due to critical strike and near constant IAS and increased armor. Or E/Mo Ether Infusers with constant infuse health spam. Still... would have like to see increased viability for mesmers in PvE against the current meta. -- Lania Elderfire 19:10, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * We're (Wyn, a few others, IoW: the few of us casual Dervish+Mesmer enthusiasts) still working on a way to tackle both those issues without making Primary Dervs OR Mezs a new meta in PvE ...which to some degree they HAVE BEEN in a number of Solo-Farming situations already.  But we won't make any real headway on it until Linsey gets 'er page opened back up again. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 20:20, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * If your idea of game balance is to nerf one of the few things that keep an entire profession from being a waste than you don't have an idea of game balance. You get points for insulting me though since it wouldn't be a wiki talk page without censoring someone's opinion.  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:48, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Not sure where I insulted you (unless you find being wrong a personal offense?), but okay.
 * Game balance would also imply mesmers not being a waste of a profession in PvE. That hasn't happened yet, but some other steps toward balance (namely, a hit against FC X) have.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  05:42, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I was responding to Auron. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 18:59, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't you mean Armond? But you *can* place your comments in between other "threaded" discussions like an actual conservation should be structured instead of this replying 5 lines down to the wrong person stuff.  ...and (speak of the devil) the real Auron has backed me up on that fact...  -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 19:11, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't you mean Armond? But you *can* place your comments in between other "threaded" discussions like an actual conservation should be structured instead of this replying 5 lines down to the wrong person stuff.  ...and (speak of the devil) the real Auron has backed me up on that fact...  -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 19:11, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Spell Breaker
So... what's different about it? Some Ninja Dude 03:48, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * From my understanding, only a mechanics change went through, the skill itself is unchanged. Enemies don't lose energy any more when they try to cast on you. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 03:50, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Another thing that might have been updated - I ran a buddy of mine from THK to Marhan's Grotto and all the Ice Imps, Mursaat Mesmers, etc. didn't even try casting a spell once I put up SF (it's still good for running :P). Before this update they'd spend half the time first trying to cast through and getting the click, click interrupts. Razor39999 04:03, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I think what it does is if you use this for farming use, you now have a time limit to get your kills in. Because if you don't, all those baddies are going to have full energy and act like you never casted it. - SabreWolf 07:37, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Just use the new Shadow Form over the new Spell Breaker for running like that now. Shadow Form is completely maintainable indefinitely by any class (maybe not Warrior and Paragon though due to energy issues) without consumables. -C2Talon 09:13, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The change is that you can only cast it on an ally now, not yourself...really hurts the 600ing build
 * The point of removing the spell failure mechanic was to curb the 600-smite-Famine combination used, and necessary for, areas such as the Domain of Anguish. Since now they just can't be targeted, enemy energy isn't exhausted and no extra damage can be applied. Also, it means that as soon as SB drops, the enemy will have plenty of energy left to nomz the squishy monk. 141.165.171.71 23:02, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Toc
Someone really doesn't think that this page will need one? O.o I would simply add the TOC myself but ill only get reverted so im looking for support here at a page that will quite obviously require a TOC. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar  <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  04:00, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Some troll removed it earlier. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 04:08, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I might be able to resist if it weren't so goddamn easy here. –Jette 04:36, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Obsidian Flesh is now a really Pointless Skill
Great now OB Flesh is even more pointless than it was before. There was already no reason to bring it with you why in world would it be used now when their are much better elites?. The energy degen is just stupid, at the most this skill should have been made into an ele version of mantra of resolve then it would have at least been useful, now it's completely pointless. Wynterarwynrose 04:12, 26 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with you. Some people are going to say that its still viable. But theyre wrong. this skill is now stupidly underpowered. Thanks for SBooning a skill that wasn't even a problem. GG ANet. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  04:21, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I've really only heard of it being used for tanking. Don't most eles bring Stone Striker and Mantra of Earth along with it? That combo is essentially infinite energy while getting hit. <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Jupiter.jpg|19px]] 04:24, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not talking about farming, heck outside of farming why even bother with this skill? An elite shouldn't have the soul purpose of being a farming skill, it should be used for other purposes. As far as regular play goes this was always a pointless elite and now even more so. Wynterarwynrose 04:35, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I found it quite useful to tank h/h Vloxen in HM. Any place where you're an ele and could use a tank it's nice. <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Jupiter.jpg|19px]] 04:39, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * For 20 seconds you become a warrior that cant attack. The end. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  07:43, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Shadow Form is hilariously better... completely maintainable by any class with the energy to do so without consumables, and without the silly drawbacks of the now completely gimp Obsidian Flesh. -C2Talon 09:21, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

So I guess you just made Harn Coldstone pretty much a useless boss, you know, seeing how he uses a sword with Conjure Frost. 24.106.177.50 13:05, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Obsi Flesh didn't need this, it lost out to many other farming builds and OK, many have now been nerfed (and SF at least more than needed it) but OF has been nerfed more harshly than pretty much any of the others here, imo. Widowmaker 14:54, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The energy donwsides make it usably mostly for farming, where you can use energy management skills that rely in many monsters attacking you. At least warriors will stop using it as a tanking skill. Hells, I hate when other professions use OUR skills. All elementalist skills should be primary! XDDD Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 16:34, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually it was only really nerfed for secondary Elementalists. Primary eles usually run good ene management :(mostly Stone Striker and Mantra of Earth) making the only really nerfed part of this skill unimportant. Among other things Vaettir farm for eles got buffed with this. Razor39999 16:38, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The mid-level farms got buffed by the change, and since I did more mid than high-end farming 90% of this update helps me rather than hurts me, personally. 118.93.44.134 19:10, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Congratulations... after 5 years of playing I have now begun to realize that ANet is jsut nerfing whatever comes along.... this is irritating.... Obsidian Flesh really was a pointless skill that I only used for Glint HM DCore Farming... guess that won't be happening now.... Other than that I don't even remember actually getting the skill lol it's pointless now. Ok, now to gloat about SF :D --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Kwashi09 (talk).
 * The only Glint Obsidian farm build I've seen uses Mantra of Earth and Stone Striker, so the energy doesn't matter. The normal movement speed is actually a buff for that farm, since you can get to destroyers that are aggroing the baby faster. <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Jupiter.jpg|19px]] 19:40, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I've been running a general Mantra of Earth/Stone Striker OF farming build for quite a while after the nerfing, the main problem I'm having even with e-mangement is just shy 2-3 energy to recast. Then again, I could re-rune the farming armor all Geomancer + Attunements. I use Glyph of Swiftness before OF, but still, 25 energy for that skill is terrible, 15 or even 20 would be more acceptable, Shadowform still came off looking better than this.69.129.199.244 02:05, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Well obsi flesh the slow is off so the veattir farm is still do able for rare's, golds, mes tomes and party event drops<- now i do 60 kills on hm in 3 mins (veattir do earth dmg so with mantra of earth insta full energy) <-- but now i have said this, mark my words veattir farm is next to fuck, because A net Fucks al farms.... Thank you for gettin rid of the fun in GW. Hama
 * Actually, Anet's language made it very clear that there is nothing wrong with farming, but balance was needed. Trying to explain it to people like you is impossible because the very idea of overpower is only thought of in PvP. The truth is that it's just as much an injustice to have too much power in PvE. Xiaquin Crystal_Snowflake.png 16:36, 18 March 2010 (UTC)


 * ooh, you just got told... -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 17:37, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Forceful Blow and Shove
mmmm, I might have to play around with these sometime. High damage and unblockable and an Auto KD w/o exhustion or loss of Adr... might find some use for them. - SabreWolf 04:15, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Ritualist Bugs found
BUG: Recasting Soul Twisting before former cast is over will not renew the charges as expected. You have to use up every charge before recasting Soul Twisting to not have charge munching.

Like if you at 12+ spawning power cast Soul Twisting, then use 2 charges and recast Soul Twisting. Then the Soul Twisting buff will end after 1 more charge used, and not 3 as expected.

BUG: Ancestors Rage still says doing Lightning damage. Though the skill clearly does Armor Ignoring damage now as advertised in the update.
 * It's armor ignoring lightning damage. Just tested with Iron Mist. Norwegian Thunder 16:46, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, that's odd. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  17:37, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Not that odd. If I remember right Obsidian Flame (while armor ignoring) is still Earth damage. There are a few others, too; typed armor-ignoring damage doesn't affect much, but for skills that reduce damage of certain elements (e.g. Mantra of Earth) it's a fun mechanic to play with sometimes. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 17:58, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Ya, I believe dust trap is armor ignoring earth damage too. I suppose this means all armor ignoring damage has a type. Just maybe not one that interacts with any other skills or game mechanics. Norwegian Thunder 21:50, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Armor-ignoring might just be a checkbox, and if checked, armor isn't applied to the damage calculations. Or something. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 04:15, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I kind of doubt anet would implement something that simple and straightforward. –Jette 04:28, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Then it's a binary variable. Same deal. Point is, damage type is independent of armor-ignorance. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 07:42, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Spaghetti? [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  08:26, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * not just spaghetti code, mind you. for all I know the code could be pristine.  it's the implementation that reeks of failure.  did you know that every time they implement a new skill, performance degrades?  that's the main reason they're not using the pv{e,p} split more often.  isn't that absolutely ridiculous?  I don't blame them wanting to make gw2; whoever made gw1 was on a lot of coke or something.  –Jette 08:41, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Must've been pretty damn good coke, the game turned out to be beyond any expectaions, considering they started with all of THREE PEOPLE. But hey, I'm all for making a good thing better. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 09:00, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Or bad coke, depending how you look at it. Still, I agree. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 14:45, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm just throwing this out there. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  15:03, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Man, I love it when Jette posts. Also, all the more reason to remove every post-Factions skill from the game, right? (And a number of Factions ones, come to that...) -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 19:13, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Heal As one
Hmmm....... With all those buffs..... Petway anyone? Leave a message on my talk page if your intersted in organizing a petway team =D -- <font color="Crimson">Briar  <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  04:24, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Like I said in the skill discription... its still gonna be hard to pass up Enraged Lunge PvE when Comfort Animal can do the same thing of Pet Heal/Pet Rez/Bring Pet. As long as there is a Monk in the party, who cares about the self heals porton of HaO. - SabreWolf 04:30, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Lol i didnt say it would be the next Perma-way. It just sounds like it could be fun. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  04:34, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Life stealing and the ability to focus-fire your pets. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:34, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Primal Rage
oooo, wait a minute... The recharge is shorter then the duration now (before it was a 13 length, 15 recharge). So this skill can actully be perma as long as you keep hitting. 4 Adr is not too much... new adr gaining skills added in the update. I can live with the change actually. - SabreWolf 04:27, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Why would you permaPrimal? Lokre 04:45, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Hey if you are not taking heat... why not right? Just punch Rush for a few seconds till the heat is off and right back on PRage again. 4 Adr just makes it a little annoience then anything. - SabreWolf 04:48, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * So you're asking to be spiked out? By the way, canceling isn't exactly perma-ing it. Lokre 04:50, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Your being too literal... you don't really need to switch out of the stance if the other team if not targeting you. All I am saying is that the duration of the skill is LONGER then the recharge... ergo you can keep this skill up now unlike before where you had atleast a 2 sec cool down... - 192.234.2.24 04:57, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You can't gain adrenaline for Primal Rage while it is recharging. --Zora 05:29, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I found it pretty hard to charge in 3 seconds. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  05:37, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 14 strength (which most people run so weakness doesn't fuck their sentinel's) primal is 14s duration, meaning you can theoretically perma primal. Not likely going to happen though, b/c all anyone does anymore is coolspike or hit the mesmer--TahiriVeila 12:20, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Ppl run Sentinel's in PvP? And major Strength runes? All that with the constant threat of getting double damage?! Razor39999 16:41, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, people run armor insigs over health insigs since one the former actually reduce damage. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  17:15, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * FUCK, I NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT! Time to buy major strengths.  Also, Shove > all axe elites.  You can just pick a target and abuse them and it's so amazingly sexy.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  17:15, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Soldier's Speed
Not that this greatly matters... but this skill plus "I Am the Strongest!" gives you a perma 30% IMS on 1 Warrior skill where other stances give you 25%. Or better yet, "I Am Unstoppable!" for 20 seconds of 30% IMS with Crip and KD Prof with a 10 sec cool down of 15% IMS. Could add in "I Will Survive!" to fill the 10 sec gap... but that's getting technical. - SabreWolf 04:46, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but it's 10e. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 05:25, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

The second one I posted, but not the "I Am the Strongest!" route... thats only 5E - SabreWolf 05:51, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No, the stance plus the shout is 10e. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 19:16, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

It's Hammer Time?
So uh...unless I'm reading this wrong, the majority of these changes are also for PvP? Because, if so...wow. Arshay Duskbrow 04:46, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * They probably won't make a difference. Nothing's game-changing so far, as far as the hammer skills go.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  05:38, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Except that (hopefully) they killed sway. But we all know they didn't. =/ -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  05:40, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Sway's not going anywhere until the S dies. What's R/A sway without R/As?  What's BB sway without BB?  Iway sway without iway?  Still sway.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  05:43, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * ^ sway wwill just replace the R/A with seeping wound sins or even go back to thumpers. Not a big deal--TahiriVeila 12:21, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Seeping Wound in a team with no other hexes is just asking for a fast removal, though. I would probably rather have "Coward!" sins or even keep SA but on sins. Widowmaker 14:57, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

For the economy?
While I'll be the first to admit that I don't know anything about the Perma sins, the 600 smites and the changes that affect them, but it seems to me that when it comes to the GW economy, ANet has no one to blame but themselves. Look how long it took them to crack down on the Real World Money brokers and all the bots that were repeatedly farming certain areas. This ranks right up there with the Security login to stop the hackers...after the game has been running for over 4 yrs. Too little...waaay too late.
 * Two hours before update, i bought stacks at 8k each. Now they're worth 10k ea and rising. Thanks ANET :D (oh and hammer is favorite for PvP so thanks again) 24.150.172.32 04:54, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Nice! Please, do me a favor and try to crash the economy! That will really show how inexperienced they are and it would be hilarious to watch them make feeble attempts to revive a dying/dead game. It's true that that the rich became even richer and the poor have little hope of ever being able to get any of the popular and rare items. ;D --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 97.121.17.7 (talk).
 * Lol, really? Last I checked ecto prices are basically back to what they were for months before the nerf. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 16:29, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Signet of Capture Bug
Signet of capture now costs 10 energy though the description still says it is a signet?
 * Or maybe you were near one of these - http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Primal_Echoes Razor39999 05:19, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You know you could just do this Primal Echoes, right? -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  05:31, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Ye but I couldn't find the [] on this keyboard. :P Razor39999 06:17, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Sway
Are they planning on killing this anytime soon? You can nerf the melles for it all you want but its called Spiritway for a reason. You should really think about changing those skills. oh and the traps. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar  <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  05:41, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Leave the spirits the fuuck alone ! Sway is lameway anyway. Tiberium 19:01, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Power Block
Anyone got a good reason/theory/explanation why they touched it? ArenaNet's Logical and Perfectly Sensible Explanation TM is, according to their dev update: "Power Block was added to the update to allow more options for spellcasters in GvG." -- <font color="#dce2e8">R <font color="#cfdae5">I <font color="#b8c2cc">D <font color="#a1b1bf">DLE 05:53, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * They probably thought people would complain if they didn't make at least one change to Mesmers. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 06:00, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * There were other elites they could have chosen though... IMO Panic, Power Flux, Simple Thievery, or Recurring Insecurity. Previously Unsigned 06:23, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Power block was a little strong because it meant you could effectively keep a midliner shut down 14/20 seconds. This is probably a bit of the response to botters being able to land power block on recharge too, since anet can't figure out how to detect/block .dll forcers, apparently they've decided to nerf the skills bots use instead--TahiriVeila 12:23, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Hell any decent (human) mesmer can land PBlock on recharge. [[Image:User DrogoBoffin sig icon.png]] Drogo Boffin 12:45, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I think they probably meant that they brought Power Block to the level of other mesmer elites so it's no longer the best elite you can take <font color="#006633">Haruno Midori [[Image:User_HarunoMidori_signature_img.png|19px]] 13:04, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * And that doens't make the sucky one suck any less. Previously Unsigned 22:12, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Power block was better than 100% aoe shutdown? ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 02:19, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess 14 second conditional shutdown against one foe is better somehow. I mean sure, if you hit all 8 of the opponents VoR is effectively 80 seconds of shutdown, but seriously, what are the odds of hitting even two? /sarcasm --Orry 14:53, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Shure VoR is better then Pblocking the WoH,RC or Bsurge Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] 12:51, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Shure VoR is better then Pblocking the WoH,RC or Bsurge Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] 12:51, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you ANet
''Note:The intent of this section is to send thank-you to ANet for the change to Eachskill as it applies in this update. Post the name of the skill as a thank you to ANet for the change they made to it.''

Back Breaker, Spirit rift, Seeping wound, Shattering assault, DwG, Dwarven Battle Stance. (this was written from a PvE point of view -- <font color="Crimson">Briar  <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  05:55, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for Shadow Form update, I love it ^^ --Atreyo 09:40, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * i was already glad when i saw it in the announcement for the first time :D I wonder how the Shadow Form change will impact on the community.
 * i like every blood magic functionality change, the ritualist energy management skill change (some of them now can finally find some use) and the hammer mastery buffs most.
 * the skill changes i like most are: Seeping Wound, Glimmering Mark, Obsidian Flesh, Holy Wrath, Heal as One, Blood Bond, Demonic Flesh, Life Siphon, Mark of Fury, Oppressive / Ravenous / Jaunced Gaze, Anguished Was Lingwah, Binding Chains, Destruction, Lamentation, Ritual Lord, Signet of Creation, Soul Twisting, Spirit Channeling, "Charge!", "Fear Me!", "None Shall Pass!"...sheesh, just about any skill acutally.
 * oh, and since it's one of my favorite warrior elites, i'm very happy about the ERF SHAKKUR animation, too :D &mdash;Zerpha[[Image:UserZerpha The Improver sig.png|talk]] The Improver 13:15, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Shadow Form, "Fear Me!", Heal as One, Seeping Wound, Ritual Lord, and Practically all of the warrior buffs. Now, I am writing this as a sin player (my sin is now 3 years old), I am not a farmer, and the fact that shadow form never got any look into normal PvE annoyed me, it was just a waste of space imo. But now that it has become more like Dervishes Vow of Silence, and Monks Spell Breaker. I can see it getting plenty of use on my skill bar :D This was a clever nerf, as it was nerfed for the permasins, but at the same time buffed for those who want it to see more use in normal PvE. San Darkwood  14:54, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * To be honset, I actually apporve of most of this... Sin was good, Derv was so-so, Mesmer lacked updates, Ele's Obsi Flesh was harsh, and the Monk was kind of uninteresting, but not bad... most of everthing else was good (though one or two things I'd like to see in-game before passing judgement). Widowmaker 15:00, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * My favorites: Seeping Wound, Oppressive Gaze, Ravenous Gaze, Destruction, Destructive was Glavie, Ritual Lord, Spirit Rift, "Fear Me!", Dwarven Battle Stance. <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Jupiter.jpg|19px]] 16:59, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I won't know for a while but I guess my assassin will like Demonic Flesh... So thanks I guess for that one.  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:41, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Tyvm for making my beloved tactics useful again...I may actually come on and play some now and take a Aion break :-p BurrTheKing 22:12, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd have to say there is a lot of talk above about people hating the SF change, but I'm glad to see it change. It should take skills and tactics to farm an area and the skill negated the need for that. I have been playing for years and used to farm the underworld before the skeletons got added to it, but when I was farming it was with a group of people that relied on eachother to help and beat it together. No you didn't get every ecto for yourself, but if you did a few runs with the same group, you usually got a few for yourself. And as far as the people complaining that it's going to hurt the game to not have the ability to pay a runner to get you past a hard mission, I personally think it helps the game...players will have to figure out a way to beat their problems themselves...then they won't get to the end of the game and realize they still have no idea how to use their skills. I was origionally against the ursan change because I thought it actually took more tactics to keep your ursan up with out agroing too many foes for you to handle, but considering that they took it down to even out the game, I got over it, and you people will need to too. Trying new things and finding better ways to play for your playing style is part of the fun of it. I am going to miss the old way that Binding Chains worked, but it was too much of a godly skill too I guess, you live and deal with it...there's no reason to bitch for 10 pages about one skill change...it really shows how many people actually have no idea how to play to the situation and just pushed buttons. The only thing I feel bad about is the people that sold their ectos off the day before the change and the people that just buffed up an armor set or bought a specific weapon for SF farming, aside from that I'd have to say a huge "Thank you" to Anet. Things were going a bit too far and needed a change. (Asmodeus 07:32, 27 February 2010 (UTC))

LoD
Seriously? Why not actually take time to actually balanced the damn skill instead of fucking it with all these so and so attribute skills are disabled for 20 seconds. That's not balancing that's just lazy. That Dude On The Television 06:52, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Tbh it didn't even really need balancing since LoD mesmer have been pretty suck since SoH got nerfed. The only place they saw use was trip war GvG which was pretty meh =\--TahiriVeila 15:20, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Seeping Wound
Please make it stop.  is for  Raine,   etc.  06:57, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Seconded. That skill is bullshit. Pluto 07:00, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Roflmfao. Assacasters are back. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  07:01, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. A/N > N/A. Than 07:11, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Rut-roo... somthing don't sound good, whats the bar? - SabreWolf 07:28, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Seeping would + conditon of any kind. It automatically comes out to about 15 pips of degen. BtW i cant wait till we see a pressure team consisting of this, Binding chains, and IoP. Im prolly gonna go A/Me for that very reason. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  07:31, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Jesus Christ, I could see maybe the armor ignoring damage making it viable enough, but they threw in an unconditional almost uninterruptable snare, and almost no recharge? WTF. 173.88.136.15 08:01, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Just checked even, and found out that this change was not listed on the update preview. That makes a lot more sense, because just reading that skill description would have made me cry foul. Was this a last minute decision to throw this buff in? Pluto 07:55, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * [AXBCZmFx4mp1AxoA9mJAA] Enjoy -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  08:00, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * For easier viewing - SabreWolf 08:50, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Cant wait trying out a N/A build in PvP... looks decent. - Gabe
 * Agreed, ran this with six attack skills earlier and nobody knew what hit them. Then again, could have just been the six attack skills, but a free snare and 35 dps helps a lot. -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning [[Image:User Tha Reckoning Sig2.jpg|19x19px]] 08:36, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 35 DPS the rough equivalent of an axe warrior auto attacking you in frenzy while you're standing still. I can't imagine that not being helpful... Pluto 09:26, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The extra 35 DPS is the the equivalent of a a 35 damage conjure. That wouldn't be OP either, right pluto?--TahiriVeila 12:25, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It would be perfectly balanced. Oh, wait.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  17:04, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It would be perfectly balanced. Oh, wait.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  17:04, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

why run an assacaster when you can just facerol and pump?--TahiriVeila 12:24, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Omygod. beats cripshot.... --Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Sig.jpg|10px‎]] 12:54, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It's like Illusion of Pain, Glimmering Mark, and Crip Shot packed into a 5 energy, 1/4 cast spell. Oh - and you can't mess it up like glimmering mark. Using this jagged, fox, crit strike, and conjure, you can push out 100 dps easy.
 * Farm your glad points while you can. It's going away very soon. Targren 22:27, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah and? This re-begs the whole question of:  "why even have the TKrewe if crap like this sneaks through?"?? -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 20:00, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Blood Bond
Description change to die, not dies. I'm a foreigner so I could be wrong. Than 07:59, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You are correct. It should be "If any of these foes die. . . " ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 08:33, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No, "any" is an indefinite pronoun that can be used as either plural or singular. In this case, it's singular, for two reasons. First, "one" is used instead of "any" in the normal description. Second, the singular is used because the hex applies to each foe hexed with it. If it were "If any of these foes die. . ." that would imply the healing only coming once, no matter how many foes die. After establishing that "any" is being used as a singular pronoun here, it's just a matter of subject-verb agreement. ". . . dies" is the correct usage. 128.192.190.46 07:03, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Take the rest of the sentence out. "If any dies" is wrong. "If any die" is correct.
 * I trump you in grammar. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 07:59, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually your argument is incomplete, you cut the wrong thing - any what? It directly depends on the noun. "If any foe dies" or "if any foes die" are both grammatically correct, just decide how many foes there really are. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 13:36, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * "If any die(s)" would be correct. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  19:32, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Foes die, foe dies, eof. Can't have a foes die(s)ing. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 19:35, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Any die or, in certain cases, any dies. Foes aren't doing anything in the sentence.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  13:13, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Good job anet
On totally fucking ass-raping guildwqars:

SF - SBoonPVP

Ob flesh - SBoonPVP ON A SKILL WHICH WASNT EVEN BROKEN

Imbas - Dont try and bs the guildwars that this was about hero's using them, and cracked armour. Imbas, now more worthless than a monk.

Mesmers - Still as bad, if not worse in pve.

600 Smite - You just REALLY can't leave ANYTHIGN alone can you?

You wonder why people quit and join aion or wow, we pay good money to have a fun game, and everytime we find something which makes the game more enjoyable, you fucking decimate it. 81.154.30.41 08:34, 26 February 2010 (UTC) So I herd party-wide 35% damage reduction and non-self +100 armor was still pretty leet. Not when it's that overpowered, no. There are plenty of applications for the new skill. None of them are as imba as the old version, thank Dwayna. --Kyoshi (Talk) 08:42, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Its good for them if people keep moving to Aion for this year, as they won't come out with GW2 before they can get enough money from Aion. I think they will release GW2 late 2011 or early 2012. - Gabe 09:38, 26 February 2010 (GMT + 1)
 * "Imbas, now more worthless than a monk."
 * "600 Smite - You just REALLY can't leave ANYTHIGN alone can you?"
 * "SF - SBoonPVP"
 * He said SboonPVP on obby flesh. And lets be honest. Its been Sboon'd. And btw, From what i heard 600 tanks were still vunerable to conditions, knockdowns, and just about anything in the game that isnt a spell. But maybe thats just me being silly. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  10:10, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Conditions are gonna kill a 600? Yeah, not really.  The only dangerous one is Daze, and guess what?  They can't be interrupted, anyway.
 * Knockdowns? Nope, they're unstoppable.
 * Interrupts? Still no.
 * Spells? lolno.
 * What does that leave? Lameass imba monster skills.
 * I see what you mean, though. 600s are just so vulnerable!  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  10:15, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * /shrug. They were still much more vunerable than perma's. Thats for damn sure. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  10:18, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * And that, my friend, is because IDDQD was broken so, so far up its ass. :3  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  10:23, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * We're friends now? O.o -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  10:25, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I love everyone as a person; it's only peoples' actions that I hate. You're not doing anything that I have a problem with at the moment.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  10:30, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh. I see. Well thats...... Nice.... Of you... -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  10:37, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I am one of the nicest, most benevolent people in the world. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  10:38, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * And so modest too. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  10:39, 26 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Also:
 * anymore the save yourselves there's nothing to fear combo don't work that much but it's fairly effective. very weak against any type of anti-shout and shock is a costly interrupt skill. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  10:23, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * anymore the save yourselves there's nothing to fear combo don't work that much but it's fairly effective. very weak against any type of anti-shout and shock is a costly interrupt skill. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  10:23, 26 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Wait, what? Are we now complaining about balancing a build refered to as 'imba'? Anyone see anything odd there? Twam Valandil 94.209.65.245 11:20, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * People quit GW for other games because anet DOESN'T do these kinds of updates enough. The metagames in pve and pvp become stagnant and one-tracked, then when a change or fix is finally made, idiots cry like it's the end of the world. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 02:12, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * About Obsidian Flesh, you know you can bring Stone Striker and Mantra of Earth with it, right? --Orry 14:32, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Ritual Lord
I really wish heroes would use this... ever. Preferably only right before they would use a Ritual. -C2Talon 10:06, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The new Soul Twisting is way, way better. Arshay Duskbrow 10:19, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * For some things, yes, but I wouldn't trust a hero to use Soul Twisting properly. -C2Talon 10:24, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, they apparently can't be trusted to use Rit Lord at all, so which is preferable? :P Arshay Duskbrow 11:20, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, for a while I couldn't get even get heroes to use either skill, so I thought maybe the AI didn't use them at all. I see now that heroes use Ritual Lord in a not-so-good way; such as making one or two spirits before finally starting to use it, then eventually using a non-ritual skill after a use. As for Soul Twisting, I might be able to trust heroes with it when the hero has only 1 spirit on the bar that tends to die really fast like Shelter, but it's too bad heroes don't use Soul Twisting outside of battle and usually end up using Soul Twisting after putting up one or two spirits, which defeats the whole purpose. I don't think I could trust them with Soul Twisting in the same way I can't trust them with any of the Echo skills because of that. -C2Talon 12:06, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

DID SF DIED?
Did it? 65.27.138.89 11:33, 26 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Depends on your point of view. As an immunity to all spells and direct attacks, yes. However, it now is just a decent tanking skill. If you pack some assassin enchants they provide 5 damage reduction each, you do the math how much you'd need to be effective. Because of the changes to recharge and all it is now entirely maintainable with deadly paradox, without any consumables or +mods, providing potential infinite spell shield, without needing to spec in deadly arts. This means 2 skill slots for the spell protection, and after that a choice as to how vulnerable/offensive or immune/tanking you'd like to play, with attribute points and secondary profession to spare. Just put back into line with other tanking skills, imo, but surely some people consider it dead. Twam Valandil 94.209.65.245 11:50, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

How to kill a game with one update ...

Nerf 600/smite is the most ridicul thing i ever see ... Anet suxx so hard !


 * This page is full of qq harder please :D (Ixillius)
 * Guild Wars may once again require even some skill to play. And i fucking love it! ^^ - J.P.[[Image:User J.P. sigicon.png| ]] Talk </b> 17:44, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * SF did not die, Assassins just became a useless class. : ) -J.P., GW took skill to play before the update. If it took no skill and was so easy, then why is it that permas *could* be killed by many things (Skeles, stuff in Fow, stuff in every dongeon, etc.)? The thing no one ever realized was that SF NEVER provided invulnerability like everyone was saying. Seems like hardly anyone knows what it means, try looking it up. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 97.121.17.7 (talk).
 * It's been two weeks and people are still whining? Yes, Skeletons of Dhuum were introduced to counter SF, and then there is health degen, lifesteal, and aoe. But when everyone and their mother can use a gimmick build, there is no skill to it. The world isn't going to end, life will go on, and perma dependents are still going to play GW, so let it go already. &mdash; Gares 13:34, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Giant Slap in the Face
Of course Anet decides to nerf 600/smite the day before  the double Luxon/Kurzick title point weekend. It's not like MQSC or DTSC involve 600/smite or anything >.< This is pretty much Anet saying FACEPALM BITCHES!!!! to everyone who actually wants to max their Luxon/Kurzick title. 65.27.138.89 11:48, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh my.. Now you actually have to think while playing! -- Cyan [[Image:User Cyan Light sig.jpg|19px]] 11:53, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * id go further ad say 'oh my.. now you actualy have to play' 127.0.0.1 11:54, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The last two comments demonstrate the low state that the GW community and this Wiki have reached.
 * I think the OP demonstrates the low state that the GW community and this Wiki have reached, tbh. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  12:11, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I think Luxon/Kurzick farming should be done in PVP (JQ/FA) they didn't nerf PVP.

These titles aren't even that hard! I got to r12 without in a couple months. Previously Unsigned 12:18, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Cry me a river. I've had fun 600/Smite myself and now I have the opportunity to think (yes, think) of more and new ways to have fun with this game. If abusing one singular narrow way of playing made your whole game, then I suggest trying something far more simple. I've heard they made a 3-D version of Pac-Man. --<span style=”font-family:Verdana;color:#3FF">Manassas  12:21, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * MQSC and DTSC involve "SC", which is why they were FIXED. And anything else that brings more SC should be fixed, because any SC would be a bug due to a loophole in a certain combination of skills allowing too much effectiveness and clearing areas way too fast. Note the way, since fast and too fast may be fine, but NEVER "way too fast". Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 16:00, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I dont think that nerfing SF, ObsiFlesh or 600/smiter were so bad ideas. What I see as a bad idea is that they do all of them together and 600/smiter right before double faction. I know they want that people who always complains about OP finally keep quiet for a couple of months until a new OP build takes place and they start over again. But it feels that they are trying to clean servers by slapping the face (quoting for the title XD) of those who find the fun farming places, don't have time to get together with guildies and farm UW (I personally never farmed ectos with SF or any other build). A lot of people find exciting playing Poker, and some other people find it boring meanwhile they like to play old maid. I don't see the company who makes the cards taking out the jokers because they wanted that people play poker not old maid. Please don't insult all the people who are expressing their opinion in a game they expend their money just like you. Seriously, people get divided for a game...--Batousai 16:19, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The only problem is that the card analogy is not perfect, because the people who play old maid don't win many times more money than those who play poker. Widowmaker 17:33, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Lol, yeah, but remember, this is a game, who cares if you win more or less in a game, like I said, I used SF before, used with raptors until I got r10 and still I guessed that nerfing was needed to be done, but at the same time, people who only play this in their free time wont be able to collect as many ectos enough to get the obsi armor, and people who have a lot of ectos (the same permas intended to be nerfed) wont sell them cheap to them. Let's do this, why not making UW imposible to farm solo or Speedclear but easier for a decent pug team or making ectos drop a little more, you can also leave it like that but leave the entrance for free XDDD, that way, new people can make money and learn to play. I know I know all the suggestions sound and may be stupid, but there is farming, there is playing the game, and we also have grinding, they got rid of farming with those builds, but the grinding for titles, for armor, weapons or even the GWAMM title is still there and they dont make it easier to get them, they need to make that easier for the players*cough*drunk*cough* lol. BTW still think is a slap in the face like the guy on the top said --Batousai 22:00, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I wasnt necessarily saying that it was a face slap because of the nerf, but more because of the timing of it. Anet could of done anything for this weekend's bonus, but they decided to make it Luxon/Kurzick faction which relies heavily on 600/smite. 65.27.138.89 00:38, 27 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The question is, should it have relied on 600/Smite in the first place? Surely, the double points weekend caters to every generating faction, not just those speed clears. The way I see it, you're saying it is (was) necessary to use 600/smite to generate faction. This isn't the case, it just sped the whole faction gain up. However, when looking at the alternatives (Vanquishing, Jade Quarry, Fort Aspenwood, Alliance Battles), why wouldn't you choose 600/Smite speed clears, the sensible person wouldn't. Now that the fast option is gone, that leaves the slower options, and thus leaving disgruntled people who want the fast way back. But surely a method that allowed one to generate faction so fast, was out-of-balance with the rest of the methods. That along with the way 600/Smite was very flexible with where it was applied, meant it was rather too powerful when compared with other party set-ups. The nerf doesn't stop you getting faction, it just slows you down.The fact that it was done before a double faction weekend is surely just a coincidence, since the weekends are randomly generated anyway (unless you can prove that wrong of course.) In closing, I'll say, if people found a fast way to do it before, will they find another fast faction method? - Jon Will 01:45, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Right. Anet doesn't care about 2-man fow or 2-man dungeons or 2-man doa. They made this change just to spite people who hang out in mount qinkai. Also, you're a freaking genius!!!!! ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 02:10, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I have no idea about the rest of 600/smiting, but they failed to kill FFF. I farmed over 2.5 mil worth this weekend through DSC. Let's get our facts straight, kids. 141.165.171.160 14:07, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I have no idea about the rest of 600/smiting, but they failed to kill FFF. I farmed over 2.5 mil worth this weekend through DSC. Let's get our facts straight, kids. 141.165.171.160 14:07, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Blood magic overpowered
Just tried today on RA :( Someone still thinks so? --faraon2005ramses 12:40, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I were pretty excited to try it out in fa/ra. Weakness was really useful, but after a while I forgot about blood bond and didn't re-apply barbed signet... It looked much better on paper tbh.

-<font color="Black">Cursed Angel  <font face="Arial" size="1">17:00, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * : won't do anything even if you lash out powerful blood magic skills like fucking hardcore.
 * : < Enfeeble.
 * : < Strip Enchantment.
 * : is life siphon.
 * /: easily becomes dead slots if physicals doesn't appear, they're both clumsy without vent.
 * : < Barbed Signet->Blood of the Aggressor.
 * : 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30...


 * I think JG could be pretty good if you actually had your own enchantment(s) to use, maybe for energy management. Widowmaker 17:24, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Enfeeble is still better than BotA b/c of the 1/4s cast + longer duration with 3 spec on enfeeble than BotA @ 12--TahiriVeila 18:21, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * zzzz nm raine was saing enfeeble is better, my bad--TahiriVeila 18:22, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Tho in RA the health steal might be nice. 188.74.101.228 20:05, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Also tho Mark of Fury still looks a but awkward to use, it's now a 3⁄4 cast with an end effect which makes it a great cover. 188.74.101.228 20:07, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Was Demonic Flesh supposed to be changed? The explanation said it was changed from a health steal to increase in damage, but Demonic Flesh didnt steal health, it gave you more health. Wrong skill changed, perhaps? *Malganis Frostmourn*
 * I think you misread Health Sacrifice. They never mentioned anything about Demonic Flesh doing any life Steal. <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  01:13, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * "Barbed Signet won't do anything...." BS was meant to be used with only necromancer skills, just not used to it's full potential. Might be worth equipping if they nerfed the usage more to say next 3 nec skills and let the skill really work, WITH AOE. It's only bleeding for crying out loud. - jayce 03:48, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it's not "only bleeding." Besides being a free cover for weakness/cracked armor, it's also 3 extra degen on basically their whole team. Necromancers + energy problems = lolwut? ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 03:52, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * And this is a problem in the eyes of the next 3 (again, nec only) spells and Restore Condition laughing at it and every other condition? - jayce 04:08, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * That's like saying Apply Poison is bad because the other team has an RC. King Neoterikos 04:11, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Where Apply Poison is bad, Barbed Signet is worse. AP can be used with auto-attacks that do not burn energy with each attack. BS can only be spread by skill/energy use, not by wanding. AP works with the aoe attack skills. Again, BS does not. AP gets laughed at by RC, DC, FF, PnH and even LS just like BS would. - jayce 10:06, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You have to understand that forcing prot monks to spend 5 energy is a good thing.
 * You have to understand that Apply BA or Apply Mel's mean that Deep Wound stays on a spike target after LS.
 * You have to understand that all the top players run Apply for a very, very good reason: it's one of the best skills in the game, hands-down.
 * It's no Apply, but it does serve the same general purpose: it adds free pressure to your skills once it's up. And, because it's a necro skill, it's free fodder for all of the skills that require conditions.  Not bad, if you ask me.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  15:00, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It's no Apply, but it does serve the same general purpose: it adds free pressure to your skills once it's up. And, because it's a necro skill, it's free fodder for all of the skills that require conditions.  Not bad, if you ask me.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  15:00, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It's no Apply, but it does serve the same general purpose: it adds free pressure to your skills once it's up. And, because it's a necro skill, it's free fodder for all of the skills that require conditions.  Not bad, if you ask me.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  15:00, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree... +  +, and, if need be,  as a cover hex... try it if you don't believe me, but it's insanely effective. Be afraid...Ash Dragonshadow 17:57, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Cripshot Nerf
"I expect big things from cripshot now" - Raine

"If you mean its gonna get nerfed next update then yeah. i do too."


 * I totally fucking called it. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  14:28, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * How did you figure it out ? I mean surely nobody thought a unblockable undodgable cripple was bad for the game.In all seriousness you were right :p 91.178.243.90 15:18, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * orly? -- <font color="Orange">Briar User Briar BriarSig4.png <font color="Orange">Flame Me 04:14, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Signet consumes enchantments wich either you or an ally has to cast.So no matter how you put it your team will not only lose additional tempo but the energy aswell for said enchantment.I personally consider SoPR to be a bad skill since you know you want your utility to be available at all times and not be restricted to another factor Also,stop chasing my ass! Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] 08:36, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Smiter's Boon
i was jsut liek wtf?! 127.0.0.1 14:52, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * wat--TahiriVeila 15:31, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * /read the bugs. -- <font color="Crimson">Briar [[Image:User Briar Sig1.jpg|19px]] <font color="Crimson">Flame Me  15:33, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * its not only taht there are other skils as i menionted on the updat page 127.0.0.1 15:37, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * How'd they manage to bug skills not even changed by the update? This update took 6 months to push out and didn't make all that many changes compared to other updates (See Dec 08). Great design team -___- --TahiriVeila 15:42, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I suppose they tried changes for it, and they slipped into the final update. The dangers of copypaste. Sh... ah... stuff happens, you know. They'll get it fixed soon enough, I hope. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 16:02, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * i hope accrodin to the now wrong descriptions ^__^ 127.0.0.1 16:02, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * "According to all non-english, non-japanese descriptions, Smiter's Boon reduces your Protection Prayers and Healing Prayers attribute to 0, decreases energy cost of non-elite smiting prayers skills by 1...4...5% and recharges them 10...28...33% faster."


 * Oh shit oh shit Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:51, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe possible, now abandoned skill change. Really limited compared to downside and tricky though... Percentual energy cost reduce... Right... :S - J.P.[[Image:User J.P. sigicon.png| ]] Talk </b> 17:56, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 5% would knock 1 energy off of 5-energy skills, iirc. That's not bad.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  19:37, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 * There's still some obvious problems with it in that Spell Breaker is in Divine and there's plenty of other secondaries a monk can pick up for "tanking" or healing (Ie: /earth, /earthprayers, /windprayers, /tactics, /command, etc...) -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 19:54, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but Mo/D Earthprayers Smiters Boon Monks are n't really ideal for gvg metas terrible, tbh. [[Image:User_Ryuu_R.jpg|19px]] Ryuu  - talk  19:56, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

What the Hell?
I guess GW players will be GW players and always complain, but for the most part, this update was good. Yeah OK so they've done a few stupid things, but they wouldn't be ANet if they didn't and that's why we love them. How can you say this is boring when SF is finally nerfed but still maybe useful, SA is fixed, Warrior block stances are sooo much better, Warriors get new DWs and combos (Forceful -> Fierce look powerful, anyone?), Blood Magic gets love (maybe too much, looks a bit OP), Rits get love, and a lot of things which needed tweaks were tweaked. Main problems, some things get nerfs they didn't need or deserve, some things look a little OP, and why does my Mesmer get only an elite nerf and NO LOVE! MESMERS NEED LOVE TOO! Other than that, quit moaning, especially about the stuff that's actually good (for once). Widowmaker 15:09, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Amen. Tashiro 17:58, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * All Anet is, is just a bunch of inexperienced game developers who are completely out of touch of what actual players want, don't do ANYTHING about people who break rules, and just look at skills that many people use as something that should be nerfed. In addition, why is it that everyone that is pro Anet nerf rampages arn't able to come up with their own material? I have your same story so many times almost word for word. It's always, this is OP, that is OP, everything is OP. Honestly, repeating what other people say is for those who can't think for themselves. Never once have I heard a good reason why SF and speed clears were bad. My side on SF is; It was used by so many because the game was so unbalanced. My side on speed clears is; speed clears were *in fact* created to reduce the time it takes to finish high end PvE areas. For example, the UW was intended by the inexperienced developers at Anet to take around 5 hours... No one wants to spend that kind of time trying to do a single area. Also, every dongeon was supposed to take more than 2 hours. Nobody wants to spend all kinds of time doing the same thing for hours on end and most people have things to do and CAN'T do the especialy harder areas wether it's because of school, work, or other obligations. Please, do everyone a favor and think before you want something nerfed and think of all the consequences of nerfing a skill. In fact, there were no positive effects of the tank nerfs, only negative. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 97.121.17.7 (talk).
 * You need an explanation as to why god mode is bad for online games? [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  13:21, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * God mode? What are you talking about?
 * I'm going to assume that you're trolling now. Bye.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  15:31, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

binding chains is bugged
sat there and still took dmg per sec --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.188.238.12 (talk).

Thank you ArenaNet for warrior (especially hammer) buffs!
But first: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZU6eMxeltk&feature=related| here's song for you, Shadow Formers. ;)] I have never, ever cared to use hammers before, but now it's going to be one of my favourite weapons (maybe, at least in PvE)! And about tactics..there is going to be more block QQ's! D: '<font color="Blue">Overlord Frosty '
 * I went LOL and then pictured a hammer warrior smashing the crap out of a shadow form sin in one of those weird 70s movies about warriors and stuff. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:55, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Other than Dwarven stance, there's still no reason to use a Hammer if you have a good Scythe... and I'm saying that as someone who was really... REALLY ...REALLY hoping to finally go back to using hammers in PvE like I did when I started the character over 4 years ago.  Infact the only situation in years where I found a hammer useful, was a HM mission where Enchanted rangers kept spamming ThrowDirt on me and I needed a different secondary than Derv in order to remove the blindness (b/c the assholes I was teaming with straight up refused to take an ally condition removal just for "the tank's"  benefit). -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 07:59, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

iw discription
the ingame description of ilusionary weapon looks different, did anyone else notice this? 84.196.205.90 18:11, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know about the description, but there was something with the update that said a bug was fixed concerning it. I know that IW attacks used to not count as hiting, missing, or blocking, but I don't know the case now. Could you investigate if you have the time, please? --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 18:19, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * to me it seems like "your melee atacks do not hit, miss or fail to hit.your melee atacks deal no damage.effects from your weapons or atack skills won't be aplied to foes" was just added to the description, i have been using it today and it seems to function as always. but if u know how i can test if some there was some functionality change i'll do so.84.196.205.90 19:19, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It must have been just a text edit, then, because that's exactly how it performed before. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 21:16, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Fort Aspenwood Turtle Squads bugged
I'm playing on the kurzick side therefore i'm not quite sure...but it seems like the turtle squads don't want to leave the command posts until an enemy gets in aggro range(?) 80.131.81.216 19:05, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Did you fall on your head my friend ? Tiberium 19:27, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * no + purple squad IS bugged. easy faction ftw 80.131.81.216 19:56, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * bugged as hell. Why did ANET fiddle with FA for this update? --Se7en 21:08, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * they hate luxons. haven't you figured this out by now? Previously Unsigned 01:06, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The multiple buffs to the Siege Turtles kinda decimate that point. Can't be rupted, deals about twice the damage it did when it was introduced, removes an enchantment. I don't think they hate them. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 23:46, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, by the way, this isn't occurring for me. Turtles were coming both sides. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 02:37, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Steelfang Slash
Why don't they just change how adrenaline works so that switching weapons from one type to another loses all adrenaline? It feels right flavour wise and the backbreaker combo indicates they never intended for players to switch weapon types mid fight. That and it is messy attribute wise as well as being awkward due to cancel action game mechanics etc. 58.108.233.208 19:46, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Probably would be better if weapon skills that weren't for your equipped weapon were just counted as disabled, that way you could still swap within the same weapon, and it would probably be easier to code. Just from the fact that not having the proper weapon equipped is already flagged to not let you use it.--Orry 14:19, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Not easier to code - flagging an event is a hell of a lot easier than actually checking skill properties and taking actions accordingly. (I'm assuming, of course, LoseAllAdrenaline exists.) -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 02:57, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It's ArenaNet, don't assume something exists unless you have proof, as far as we know they have it coded that only skills can cause adrenaline loss, somehow. --Orry 04:03, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Almost every farmed monster's new theme song
In regards to those annoying QQ'ers Best of regards mate! 67.158.11.36 22:24, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Here's a regard for you kiddo, it was because of annoying QQers like you that SF got nerfed. Congratulations bud, you got what you wanted at the expense of most of what everybody else wanted.  Aren't you so proud?
 * I love how you say most people, but when I logged into ToA, everyone there was celebrating the death of SF. King Neoterikos 01:10, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No... shadow formers don't want perma shadow form... what they wan't is other players plat in their bank... Sure players could get the ecto themself, and continue to do so... but perma builds did it fast and then bleed the player base for as much as the npc merchants would let them get away with... SF'ers will move on to the next farming build when it is discovered or the next mindless way to drain life of its hours so they can get back to making large amounts of pretend money in a pretend world... Beats me what they buy with it (except a big e-peen) but you can get a functionally similar one for 1-5k... 192.203.160.241 01:47, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that just made me want to go play Heavy again more than it made me think of Guildwars... & I NEVER have a "healer" when I'm going Heavy like I do in GW.  ..I'm sure it has nothing to do with my winning personality tho' -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 08:10, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

@ 67.158.11.36 Don't come like you weren't one of the people always QQing, begging for a nerf on shadow form, it was seriously annoying that the whole local chat were about how SF was killing the economy, now is annoying people are mocking at the people who use it before. I was expecting this nerf just so they kept quiet. Just do like SF never happened to both sides and keep living your pretend life happy--Batousai 04:03, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Doomlore is pretty dead; it's eerie. But from the people there, there's a lot more "GLF" and "LFG", and I'm actually glad to see that.  Then there's the few people still doing (slower) runs, and the couple of whiners.  Other than that, most everyone seems glad for the changes.  Even a lot of the former-permas are having no problem admitting that it needed to die.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  05:31, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe right after the nerf, but now everyone knows every high end PvE area is a fail waiting to happen. Lol for me because I was right about everything I predicted would happen after the nerfs. Almost everything in the game is uber fail now. Looks like everyone got what they wanted... I just get on GW now to troll, and fail groups right from the start : ). Honestly, the people still playing are just desperate to play GW and it's fun to fail them, then they throw a cute little temper tantrum, then they spam some kind of HA rank. LOL

@ Batousai, No, I was one who at times would complain about SF I will admit that, but it kinda was killing the economy and the whole team play atmosphere. I play guild wars, but now it isn't "Farmville: Ecto Edition" so much. 67.158.11.36 19:52, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Slime-Tycoon woulda been funnier... and not just for the Ghostbusters2 ref.   ...even funnier is how this tangent starts with a direct reference to a game(Tf2) where people are now Idling their clients in Empty servers for 1000's of hours just to get Hats.   ...Hats that don't do anything at all.  ...atleast obsidian armor provides Max AL.   ...and then every couple months, VALVe epically Trolls all those people who collected those hats, by finding excuses to delete their hats.  It's fucking hilarious!  I think ArenaNet could take a lesson from them... maybe start bawwwleting Armgaurds or something?   -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 06:18, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Some things on update and thanks
At first I'd like to say that I like this update update in some things and that I don't like it in some ways.

I started playing Guild wars in july 2007 and I was really bad at it. Then I stopped around October 2007 and started again in july 2009. I had some chars from 2007 left, but I didn't understand anything of the game, so i started whole again. I made a warrior played it and after I made my assassin. (ofc i made all other profession's too but it's about the update here)

First about Shadow Form. My main character is an Assassin. When I created it last summer I didn't even know about Shadow Form and perma. The whole idea of being an assassin seemed great to me. I created one and beated every campain bit by bit just with my daggers build, without ever hearing or using shadow form. After playing a while i heard much about it and heard it was very nice and useful for farming and running. So I checked up what I'd need for it and got it and farmed some with it. So after beating everything (I mean the campains etc., not getting GWAMM, im still busy on that) I wanted to try some high-end, also for Zaishen coins. I joined a party, the first thing they did was asking for my build. I pinged (a dagger-build) and they blamed me for not being perma, so I changed to perma. I had this lots of times... And I HATE it to be a perma in team-pve-area's (I mean where you have full party trying to beat something). I only liked it for farming and running.... In that way I am really glad Shadow Form has been changed in that way. It's nerfed to a useless skill at the moment and I see it can be very useful if you just use it right. The only thing I'm afraid of is that people don't want assassins anymore in their teams, because their pretty vulnerable wih 70 arm (I have nightstalker insignia's ^^) and melee.

Secondly about 600/smite. I didn't want this to be nerfed at all, because I liked it pretty much to do it. Even I was just a beginning noob with it. But I understand this also had to be nerfed. So further I have no words for it to say. I'm happy Anet didn't touch protective spirit or spirit bond.

What I'm still afraid of is that some things may get much more expensive. For example ecto's. They're much harder to farm now. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you can't do anything like speedclears or 600/smite with them. (SC probaply are possible, but with different builds i guess) In some way it's unfair... A few years/months ago you could buy ecto's for like 5k each. (I even heard for 3k, dunno if this is true) So that means loads of people could buy obbsy and chaos gloves for not very much money. (I personally hate obbsy armor, but i like chaos gloves), but everyone who wants them now has to work hard for it...

Just some things I wanted to say. So again, in some ways im quite happy with this update and in some ways not. =) And please don't blame me for saying stupid things.... ;-)

84.85.178.203 22:32, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * i have to say i agree interly, sf needed to be nerfed because it was overpowering but why couldnt they leave 600/smite allown it was hardly a problem :P -- Nick 123  User Nick123 sig.jpg 22:35, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * they even say in the noted they didnt nerf hold wraft to impact 600/smite so why cant they just put it back to how it was "Making this change was more a matter of keeping the game consistent than trying to balance 600-Smite, but we're mentioning it here because it is used in some 600-Smite builds." -- Nick 123  User Nick123 sig.jpg 22:38, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Because they're lying, most likely. Targren 22:43, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * probly :( -- Nick 123  User Nick123 sig.jpg 22:45, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Because if they hadn't, then everybody would know for sure that this was an attack on Shadow Form rather than a skill balance.
 * You ask why, and they explained why in the Feedback:Developer updates. So make sure you read what the developers were thinking when they made some of these changes, rather than just coming here to cry. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  04:42, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't consider this crying at this stage, but, other than that, I'd say Wyn's post and the one preceding it are spot-on. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  05:26, 27 February 2010 (UTC)


 * OP is adorable. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  05:26, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * "everyone who wants them now has to work hard for it..." Because prestigious armor should be given to everyone right? OP is indeed aborable.
 * Just to be clear, I wasn't talking to the OP. :D -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  07:45, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * And also, 600/smite was a problem, anything that can run dungeons is kind of a problem, at least in my opinion. --Orry 14:14, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 600/smite still works, it's just slower now. Now the smite has be to be kinda good to make it work.  -- Lania Elderfire 17:12, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Demonic Flesh
I don't understand why Demonic Flesh was completely rewritten. It certainly wasn't broken or overpowered, and this "replacement" is quite underwhelming. I could continue but I'd really just descend into a stream of invectives. So, then, all I ask is "Why?". Rowan 07:18, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Have you considered Also loading up -->  &  along with it, and then wade into melee with some skills that also trigger extra PbAoE shadow damage?  (pick 2 or 3... not all)  --> [[image:Ravenous Gaze.jpg|25px]] [[image:Dark Pact.jpg|25px]] [[image:Wallow's Bite.jpg|25px]] / [[image:Touch of Agony.jpg|25px]] [[image:Contagion.jpg|25px]] [[image:Signet of Agony.jpg|25px]] & maybe ?  (or in Masochism's case, trigger it TWICE per activation on some spells)   ...I know it looks weird but it's the closest you can get in this game to "Proc" Exploitation now that HolyWrath was changed. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 09:03, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It was reworked because it's old version was useless. This new version is actually potentially very powerful indeed (you can use a blood bomber, or you can even use it on a 'sin, though your points are stretched a bit), but it has the drawback of affecting only all other adjacent foes to the one you targetted with a skill. This makes it good in PvE, probably AB & CM and maybe even HA, but a bit harder to use and not so great in RA. Widowmaker 14:27, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It wasn't useless, not to a W/N; the low Energy cost and long duration of the health buff were perfect and increased my survivability more than Endure Pain which lasts all of 12 seconds or so. In the update it said they wanted to diversify Blood Magic; I'd say they failed pretty miserably. And this replacement does all of 15 damage with 10 Blood Magic, and only when I use a skill. And only if the enemies are bunched together. Buffs are *not* useless, and certainly more useful than this woefully ineffective "improvement". Rowan 19:17, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * OIC, you're moving towards the fact that this was a key component of the GrenthBalance War... Well maybe instead of complaining about that, you should go make a Suggestion page about changing the functionality of ?   ...I know ppl been griping about it far longer than any of the other skills in this update.  And speaking as a fellow enchant enthusiast, I gotta say that the long recharge on the old Demonic made it pretty pointless on ANY tank who was facing Necro/Mez(stripping) mobs... in which case, why WEREN'T you just using "Feel no Pain" instead?   -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 19:39, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, you're quite wrong. All my builds are mine, and I certainly didn't use Grenth's Balance for anything. And I don't have Signet of Stamina, so I won't bother talking about it. As for Feel No Pain, I don't have oodles of supplies to waste on getting drunk to activate skills, nor patience to waste grinding faction for a skill that only will keep me alive in PvE. Rowan 21:16, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * "I'm smarter than your stupid Cookie Cutter assumptions" ...then why are you complaining at all?   If you're so individualistic and awesome, then just go make a new build already.  ...No sense in complaining that it only does 15 points of armor-ignoring damage everytime you use a skill....which is moar damage than you'll typically see out of ZF in HM.  Find that new niche for it.  I'm sure most Axe Wars and Dervishes already have... -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 21:29, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for all this wasted time… Merci beaucoup...
Hello, I am a French player; please excuse me in advance not to suitably express me in your language. I have played Guildwars for 57 months and I really very wanted to say to you what i think of the recent modifications of the skills brought to the play GuildWars. While hoping to have translated my remarks as well as possible, I thank you for comprehension and your listening.

I will start with this quotation of Regina Buenaobra who is part of the development team of GuildWars :

'“After careful evaluation, we concluded that it wasn’t possible to redeploy the Xunlai Tournament House at the level of quality that our players expect without completely rebuilding it from scratch. To do that, we’d have to take away vital resources from the Guild Wars 2 team. Given the circumstances, we decided it was more important to keep our focus on Guild Wars 2, and permanently retire the Xunlai Tournament House.”'

On the other hand, it was decided to so deeply modify skills of GW1 that this play loses of it instantaneously any interest for most of the players.

I still add that these modifications come precisely on a particularly inappropriate date, i.e. at the time of an event which makes it possible in gathering points of faction so long and so hard to gain without than by the method of the duo 600/Smite, what a joke!

I do not understand this strategy of the double talks which consist in saying that it is necessary to focus on the development of GW2, and thus to stop the Xunlai Tournament House, and other hand to say that it is necessary to modify radically competences of play GW1 in order to make it wrongfully captivating or attractive and this to a few months on arrival of GW2…

Imagine that you ask to your salesman to improve your computer, and when you recover it, no more software functions suitably without any possibility of recourse against your salesman… It would be necessary then for you to all start again! Purchases and installations of new software like new adjustments! Thank you well for all this invaluable wasted time!

I invite here in a friendly way our friends of the development of GuildWars or ArenaNet or NC Soft also, to be thought of the following French proverb :

To saw the branch on which i currently sat.

And which wants to say :

To attack with a situation from which one however profits or people from which one however benefits.

Because the players of GW1 are also of potential customers of GW2, and in spite of what you calculated or thought, a great majority of them are very dissatisfied with your recent modifications of skills…

Cordially.

Bonjour, je suis un joueur français, je vous prie de m'excuser à l’avance de ne pas m’exprimer convenablement dans votre langue. Je joue à Guildwars depuis 57 mois et j’avais vraiment très envie de vous dire ce que je pense des récentes modifications des compétences apportées au jeu GuildWars. En espérant avoir traduit au mieux mes propos, je vous remercie de compréhension et de votre écoute.

Je vais commencer par cette citation de Regina Buenaobra qui fait parti de l'équipe de développement de GuildWars :

'“Après une évaluation minutieuse, nous avons conclu qu'il n'était pas possible de redéployer la Maison de tournoi de Xunlai au niveau de qualité à laquelle nos joueurs s'attendent sans la reconstruire complètement à partir de zéro. Pour ce faire, nous devrions prendre les ressources essentielles de l'équipe de GuildWars 2. Etant donné les circonstances, nous avons décidé qu'il était plus important de concentrer notre objectif sur GuildWars 2, et retirer de manière permanente la Chambre de tournoi de Xunlai. ”'

En revanche, il a été décidé de modifier si profondément les compétences de GW1 que ce jeu en perd instantanément tout intérêt pour une très grande partie des joueurs.

J'ajoute encore que ces modifications interviennent précisément à une date particulièrement inopportune, c'est à dire à l'occasion d'un évènement qui permet d’engranger des points de faction si difficilement long à gagner autrement que par la méthode des duo 600/Smite, quelle fanfaronnade !

Je ne comprends pas cette stratégie du double discours qui consiste d’un coté à dire qu’il faut se concentrer sur le développement de GW2, et ainsi donc de ne plus poursuivre la Maison de Tournoi Xunlai, et d’un autre coté à dire qu’il faut modifier radicalement les compétences du jeu GW1 afin de le rendre faussement attractif et ce à quelques mois de la sortie de GW2…

Imaginez que vous demandiez à votre vendeur d’améliorer votre ordinateur, et que lorsque vous le récupérez, plus aucuns logiciels ne fonctionnent convenablement sans aucune possibilité de recours contre votre vendeur… Il vous faudrait alors tout recommencer ! Achats et installations de nouveaux logiciels ainsi que nouveaux réglages ! Merci bien pour tout ce précieux temps perdu !

J’invite ici amicalement nos amis du développement de GuildWars ou d’ArenaNet ou de NC Soft encore à réfléchir au proverbe français suivant :

Scier la branche sur laquelle on est assis.

Et qui veut dire :

S'attaquer à une situation dont on bénéficie pourtant ou à des personnes dont on tire pourtant profit.

Car les joueurs de GW1 sont également de potentiels clients de GW2, et en dépit de ce que vous avez calculé ou pensé, une grande majorité d’entre eux sont très mécontents de vos récentes modifications.

Cordialement. French Player 20:31, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You're french,nobody cares ... Also,stop chasing my ass! Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.jpg|21x21px]] 21:02, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Spah sappin mah TL;DR! -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 21:32, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Another valid and worthwhile post from Lilondra Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:04, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * *spits out imaginary drink in shock* Blimey. -- smøni  21:14, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * "French" is a personal attack? Wow, that was a very rude, unkind, ignorant, and generally fuckheaded thing to say.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  14:45, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Raine I love your work and Imma gonna let you finish but fuckheaded is one of the worst things to say of all time! Yeen  15:19, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I sure hope you're just being silly and sarcastic. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 22:08, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

The real reason for the Shadow Form Nerf
Well, somethime some things get so crazy with power that anet needs to nerf them. Flaming Hot Chilli 01:02, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Hey, hey, guess what? Afflicted Monks are worse because they have this, and even they aren't much of a threat if you have party members who can kite in the slightest bit. Afflicted Assassins have always been pretty simple to deal with too, you just had to wait their SF out, or (Dwayna forbid) have some PBAoE handy. As it is they'll now be tougher enemies without sporadic near-invulnerability, which isn't unwelcome for me. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 06:07, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Nooo :S the more fun part on the factions game it's gone i want aflicted sins back "try to kill them, see how they use SF, wait and see how they explodes when it ends and theres 4 or 5 minioms around than usualy explodes too by the death nova" 93.156.33.90 13:35, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * My melee's don't have a problem with em... ohhh wait you mean your discord build has issues... yer well... time to try something new... 65.6.156.101 13:41, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, my discord build owns these guys. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 17:02, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

In Memoriam
I think this is a good update headed in the right direction, but sadly 'too little, too late'. The too late part I can't emphasize enough. Many players like myself who have been with GW since the beginning, have already since moved on to other games due to lack of play balance and continual skill exploits popping up like whack-a-mole. Its good to see the SF and obby skills get their due comeuppance, along with the terribly abused holy wrath+hero farming baloney (does anyone actually remember how to PLAY a dungeon anymore?) Such things became fastly ridiculous, and sapped the play value right out of the game for a lot of folks. Some endured, but others simply moved on out to bigger and better things, having felt their voice was not being heard, I probably fit somewhere in this group. I do applaud ANet and the update as a step in the right direction, but feel these updates will have minimal impact at this late stage in the game. Lessons learned for GW2. Flipper 05:42, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Ever since 2007 and Gw2 was formally announced, interviewers have been asking the GW devs "what'd ya  learn"  ...guess what... ...they have yet to answer back with any details resembling whatever you're talkin' about.  ...no mentions of Godmode being a mistake, no mentions of not doing enough balancing soon enough, no mentions of RESPONDING to the community anymore than they have been.  None of that stuff has crept into any of their interview sessions.  So with that in mind... are you asking "lessons learned"? ...or are you just optimistically stating it ?  -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 06:02, 28 February 2010 (UTC)


 * OK im gonna say this the problem anet saw was that if you wanted to make money in many different ways and easy the soultion to all players was make a sin and be rich!!!, if you dont believe me then why so many sins everywere? or why so many players complaining? And i repeat again GUILD WARS IS A PVP FOCUSED GAME asassins suck there? NOOOOO so stop complaining and yes i used obby tank but guess what the fact i cant use it same way again dosent mean im gonna quit is a game for god sake have guts!!! And unless you have ALL and i mean ALL titles maxed, all Hall of monuments full with one character please dont say you have nothing to do because you have but you say you dont cause you are LAZYYYYY GW= PVP and some PVE and guess what it has a lot of PVE Today we tried Murakais with no assasin and guess what was fun  to beat her with no runner involved. Thats what arena net wants TEAM PLAY AGAIN IN ELITE AREAS no more runs, no more solos, is an online game YOU PLAY WITH OTHERS if you dont like to team up go play PS3 or other console, and if you thinking on going WOW to play be warned they NERF TO they dont like overfarm there and they dont like solos there, and you wil pay rent for it hope they dont close the servers and all that money go to trash.... --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Ivy Thunder Goddess (talk).
 * I read this twice and I still can't tell what it's saying...  In any case, if Anet didn't want everyone solo farming for years on end, they wouldn't have let Izzy introduce the previous version of Shadow Form, and they also would have fixed Holy-Wrath by making it expire when the caster's energy hit zero. ...as well as doing something about Spirit Bond while they were at it.  The only reason they're tackling any of this crap now is to quiet down the critics in the community; as more recent trends in "Social Media" have demonstrated that word of mouth now trumps all other forms of promotion including Videos/Demos, Commercial Media, AND Advertising.  And if enough people were still bitching about such glaring balance issues on their PvP-focused game, then they'd have an even harder time selling their PvE-focused sequel.   IoW: You're wrong, the amount of "explorable" content in this game is Tiny compared to other MMORPG's and Arenanet has admitted this in their promises to increase that content in Guildwars2 tenfold to compete as a full fledged MMORPG.   ...But guess what...  Their chief Skill Designer for GW2 isn't Linsey or Robert, it's Izzy again and there's a good little quote from a Mr Albert Einstein which predicts quite nicely the results we can expect from that particular arrangement.  -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 18:07, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * BAAAAAAWWW I'm ilr and I'm unhappy about everything now read my tl;dr rants >:,( -<font color="Black">Cursed Angel [[Image:User Cursed Angel Signature2.jpg|19px|Q.Q]] <font face="Arial" size="1">18:46, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Flipper completely. I don't think PVE should have ever been allowed to slide into 2 - 3 player/hero invincible farming groups.  People just don't know how to play if they have to assemble a full team and, as Flipper said, actually PLAY a dungeon. -Ninjatek 22:05, 28 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Shut the fuck up CA. Seriously, shut the fuck up and get the fuck out.  There's plenty of times where I am just complaining and your personal attacks might even be deserved but this instance is based entirely on facts.  If you'd like to dispute those facts... then please do so instead of resorting to the usual personal attacks when they're not even related to the substance of my reply. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 23:58, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * NPA, Also you didn't use facts you used terrible logic hoping other people that liked Shadow Form would fall for it.I'm pretty sure they didn't nerf SF sooner *because* the mass BAWWWW it would give.Also if you don't play the game and have the common sense of a squirrel your balancing gets rusty I guess Yeen  20:04, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Not even close to what I said... Shadow form was buffed years ago when Assns kept crying about being unwanted in PvE groups. Lindsey gradually fixed that the right way by improving some of their attack chains (read the Developer notes... they specifically mention frontloading some of the damage so that Assns dont have to run a full combo just to get noticeable ST/AoE damage).  ...which meant they no longer needed the SF crutch.   If neither of these situations had been fixed, then all the work going into much greater volumes of PvE content in GW2 would have been pointless since godmode skills like the old SF simply "remove" 90% of the Content itself from gameplay .  Is there any DEBATE over that point? ...b/c if there is, plz stop me there and make your cases.  -- The reason it was GOOD to address that is that it removes some of the massive doubt & worries over GW2's gameplay being TOO simplistic.  That made this a sales/P.R. move in the long-run  ...As the OP apparently just demonstrated (but still hasn't answered my question).  If someone would like to argue that the timing of all this is just a big coincidence, I'm certainly willing to listen.  But there's no way you'll convince me that we're out of the woods yet with Izzy still in charge of "the future"... -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 20:37, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

(reset rage meter) Seriously, guys. Guys, seriously. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә    ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 22:19, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I liked it
Am I the only one who .really. liked this update? lol 71.30.179.0 15:07, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Nope, I liked it too. Sure it means I can't solo farm with my sin anymore, but I knew it was coming, and have done for a long time. Things change in the game, and it's up to us to find new ways to play. Pretty much liked everything they changed, so I'm not gonna rant about nerfs and ruining the game, cause I don't think they have ruined the game, except maybe for the people who ONLY solo farm, in which case, why play an MMO? Team play ftw!!! Magua 17:18, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I liked it. -- S ilverleaf   [[Image:User Silverleaf sig.png|Special:Contributions/Silverleaf]] Don't assume, Know! 22:17, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Do not like permanent spell-immunity with a skill or two. 24.197.253.243 01:29, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I like it because the update put scs out of reach for most pugs, and yet people who were actually decent at shit can still do it. 98.248.90.248 03:24, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I definitely liked this update. Except that they left out Revive Animal and Stone Sheath, yet again. (And the ritualist hex update is rather boring.) -~=Ϛρѧякγ  User Sparky, the Tainted charr sig.PNG  (τѧιк)  03:44, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I like it. Cool Rit and Hammer updates, I never farm, and all the Ranger nerfs were last update, so...no real downside for me, this time... Arshay Duskbrow 05:05, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Hai Anet
In the future, keep random buffs out of PvP, thank you very much? Morphy 10:23, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Good you told them, I'm sure they now know what to do ! Yeen  15:20, 1 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I too prefer a stale metagame. I think those changes which affected it are rather balanced, with SW as an exception. -- -Chaos?- (moo!) -- 20:42, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm abusing adrenaline gain with Defensive Stance and Soldier's Stance. Lol, 'tis fun. →[ » Halogod User Halogod35 Sig.png  (talk)« ]← 00:10, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm gonna agree with Chaos. Other than Seeping Wound (and maybe Soul Twisting?), everything seems pretty reasonable.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  01:05, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * FC Blood Magic is pretty dumb as well. Morphy 10:22, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * FC *insert Elemental attribute here* is pretty dumb as well. OMG! They need to narf FC! Making it half as effective on non-Mesmer skills would be neat, though. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 13:38, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * TBH,SW is the biggest problem but it is far from the only one.I'm also afraid they have created skills that aren't OP now but will open up windows for abuse when other stuff gets buffed.(anguished was ...) Yeen  16:15, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That's a direct and simple nerf to FC shit that would fix many problems, but it would also hurt regular Mesmers using secondary skills. It works, but there are better solutions. Morphy 16:32, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * There's always a better solution. (I mean, unless you use "import perfection".) It's been a while since they did much balancing of the classes themselves (since Soul Reaping was nerfed, right?) instead of balancing the skills, and even that's been pretty sluggish. I for one would like to see an update that creates relatively positive results rather than waiting forever to try for perfect results. Besides, 25% faster casting on secondary spells is still pretty potent. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 05:19, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Guild wars wasn't written in Python. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  13:31, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Bye Bye Cracked Contagion Paragons
RIP the one build that I found immensely fun :( No more Paragons that keep up Cracked Armor / Weakness on big groups, and burning/bleeding/deep wound on random foes. 24.60.5.94 20:28, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It's a miniscule price to pay for having Monk Heroes with more than 1-4 points of energy in reserve at any given moment... -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 19:45, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Proof that ANet made boss farming impossible
Here! Now I hope ANet would reconsider the nerf on Shadow Form.--Dark Paladin X 05:20, 3 March 2010 (UTC) Don't get me wrong, I agree that something needs to be done. --Kyoshi (Talk) 06:50, 3 March 2010 (UTC) Once again, I think you have failed to even read what ArenaNet has posted. They have explained themselves pretty clearly here lol'erskates -- ilr  23:41, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You used the same builds from before the rework and are trying to use that as evidence that farming doesn't work anymore?
 * Your testing method is seriously flawed. And SF still needed to go. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 05:27, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You need to stop posting that link all over the place. It doesn't prove anything except that the cookie cutter Shadow Form build no longer grants invincibility- which, shock and awe, was exactly what the Live Team wanted. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 05:29, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, you haven't seen their true intentions, they want to make all forms of solo-farming (whether it is the UW, boss farming in HM, etc.) impossible.--Dark Paladin X 05:59, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Conspiracy moar, you have no evidence to go on for this claim. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 06:03, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't mind that. Guild Wars is a team game. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 06:13, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * True, but they have stated that solo playing is a method of play and that they don't want to alienate that player base, but at the same time don't want to alienate the team players. Almost paradoxical, really, but it's not exactly a bad job they're doing on it lately. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 06:21, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * So let soloing be possible, but make playing in a team more profitable. Fix'd.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  06:27, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * This video failed the "adapt or die" test. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 06:29, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * @Raine: Loot scaling. Speed clears also stand to gain from it, as do solo farms with leechers (as in the case of raptor farming), so it can't be made to give much more benefit than it already does.
 * @Armond: Does that qualify it for a Darwin award? --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 06:32, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The current method isn't working; it should be changed. For example a lot of items don't actually scale.  Like golds.  And holiday items.  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  is for   Raine,   etc.  06:44, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * "Speed clears also stand to gain from it, as do solo farms with leechers"
 * It should be the same for everybody. Whether you play with H/H or with people. I personally H/H everything. I have beaten all campaigns on multiple characters and completely vanqed Tyria with full H/H parties. Thats why I'm glad that you arent forced to play with people the entire time. [[Image:User DrogoBoffin sig icon.png]] Drogo Boffin 07:09, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That basically takes the MMO out of the RPG. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 07:22, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * "...you haven't seen their true intentions, they want to make all forms of solo-farming (whether it is the UW, boss farming in HM, etc.) impossible."
 * "Some key skills could be used well on secondary professions. Others could not. There were a lot of factors to evaluate. As you'll see from the very short list of changed skills, we determined that most of these characters were fine. Casual farming is fine. Tanking with monk support is also fine. Using a diverse and sophisticated team build to work get through endgame content more efficiently than the norm is also fine."
 * I would say that pretty much tells you that their true intentions were indeed to kill solo farming, since it's really not an intended or healthy play style for the game. They aren't hiding anything, there is no conspiracy here. They made adjustments they felt were necessary for the overall well being of the game as a whole. That it has disgruntled players who have abandoned the entire Multi-player aspect of Guild Wars for whatever reason (mostly a sense of elitism that left no room for new players to come into the game imo) is basically a "too bad, so sad" consequence. I would agree with Felix, Paladin, you are totally and completely failing to convince anyone of the rightness of your argument by posting that link everywhere you can find to post it, and should just stop. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  07:36, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Since some say an image is worth 1000 words, I posted a video response to his video. --[[Image:User Large sig.png|talk]] Large 08:58, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I have a few greens and let me tell you: spirit spamming can farm many more bosses than shadow form ever could, and it still works. <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Jupiter.jpg|19px]] 17:11, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * "and delete your assassin"

From what I've seen on this or GWiki's site, Manifold and myself are two of the most addicted boss farmers around. I've been retired for 3 years, but my green lists are fairly extensive without the use of a perma-sin or 600/smite. The only thing I would blame ANet for is allowing SF to stay like that for so long. It only made a lot of players dependent on that one build and some fanatical regarding it's removal. And before anyone says, "Shadow Form....at least it's not crack.", it seems to be just the same looking at some players' reactions. My suggestions are to look at other farming builds, such as Spirit Spammer, SV Necro, 130 Dervish, w/e. Learning to adapt is proof that someone is a good mmo player. &mdash; Gares 17:49, 3 March 2010 (UTC) Discussion was over in the first 10 seconds of the video. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә    ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:26, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * "not to mention, it looks hard"
 * It was over before it started. [[Image:User DrogoBoffin sig icon.png]] Drogo Boffin 21:28, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Also what is hard about running onto a mob and killing everyone including the boss in one hit? Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:09, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I lol'd at the OP's complaint. There are more things wrong with your complaint than there are words in it. The intent of this was to nerf farms like those. You're using the exact same skills as before the update... try reading the skill descriptions first so you can figure out why you're dying. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 21:33, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Loot is scaled based on how many people in your party. I personally prefer solo-farming mainly because it increase the chances of you getting a green item/tomes/collectables.  And besides, even if you flag the h/h away, the items you get will still be affected.--Dark Paladin X 23:06, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * And the point of the nerf is to scale solo farming so that individuals can't get as insanely rich as insanely easily as they have been. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  02:28, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Seriously, Paladin, you're making this too easy. May I direct you to Loot scaling? It clearly shows that tomes, greens, dyes and some other items you mentioned on your most recent comment are, in fact, exempt from Loot-scaling. --[[Image:User Large sig.png|talk]] Large 07:47, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * This game sucks hard now...update's like made from a fool ... did you ever think that those who exploited SF and UW/FoW to the limits are now rich and don't really care about your fuckin' nerf ? Do you know how fuckin' hard now a normal player will have to work just to get 5e...do you know how many ppl will now get an obby ? If you see 2 ppl per month getting obby armor at these prices..they're surely scammers who robbed someone....a-net simply fucked the whole game up, everything went up in price , ecto is 8k so players that aren't godlike ( 5000k + ) will have to work their assess off just to get 1 obby, while the suckers who farmed like crazy were able to get it in 2 days , very fair , very fair => claps
 * Dude, plenty of people were getting Obsidian armor before Shadow Form even existed, so stop whining and learn to play. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 00:51, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 * "Do you know how fuckin' hard now a normal player will have to work just to get 5e..." Actually, yes, and it wasn't hard at all. Yesterday I made 12 ectos in 2 hours on a rit spammer.  I also got golds and a white dye, but that's beside the point. The prior day to that, 16 ectos in 3 hours and over 30K in loot: dyes and golds.  So...? <font color="Black">000.00.00.00  00:55, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 * He has a point about the people who are now insanely rich thanks to this whole fiasco. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:30, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Really? The prices hardly changed, actually. Sure, they're a little more now, but I was expecting at least 50% increase, which didn't happen beyond the first day. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 00:23, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Are people still talking about this? I almost broke a foot and went out of town for the weekend to try to get it figured out and it's still on my watchlist. :/ -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 02:25, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Dwarven Battle Stance
Guess I inadvertently posted this text in the wrong place earlier.... DBS was hardly overpowered B4 the nerf & is now underpowered IMO. Haven't tried this new stance in PvP yet nor had it used against me in RA yet, but I find this new stance in PVE has FAR LESS utility than the previous version. Takes too long to build adrenaline to be able to use attack skills for ints & recharge on most E attack skills have too long recharge to be able to use for ints. Used to be able to int every swing with 33% IAS, now its every 3-5 sec (depending on attack skill availability). Also I find that it's susceptible to soothing images & other adrenaline denial skills/spells/binding rituals (where the previous version was immune). The +40 armor is negligible compared to the previous continuous ints (essentially you take somewhat less damage while stanced since fewer foes taget you, but you can't effectively prevent damage to team mates without ints available). Also, since many foes in PVE can't be KD, ints were preferable. I found in the previous version that the combination of dwarven stability with DBS enabled continuous int capability. My Opinion: The real value of the stance is the ints not the survivability.... Ultimately I'd like to see it reverted to previous version with the exception that it doesn't end when a skill is used (so you can still self heal &/or remove VoR/Emapthy/IP when foes apply on you).
 * It wasn't a nerf, it was a "buff" that happened to remove some gimmicks (like the change to Expert's Dexterity, which really was a nerf in PvP, overall). -~=Ϛρѧякγ  User Sparky, the Tainted charr sig.PNG  (τѧιк)  01:12, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * walking into a group of casters with it along with CrudeSwing (and 1 adren buff) generates more than enough Adren to follow up with whirlwind attack. In it's own bizzarre way, it's actually more effective than scythes for team play b/c the damage mitigation of interrupting in a circle instead of a cone is amplified by the Armor bonus (but then again likely wouldn't even be noticed if you got your Sab heroes running Reckless SS instead).  IE: it's gonna depend on your team setup.  I personally found I was living through a lot more situations than I used to with just these 2 changes to DBS & CrudeSwing.  If you're worse off then you might have been running a gimmick like sparks alluded to... -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 08:24, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Proposal for new skills
These skills should quell the SF whiners. Designed for people who want EZ mode farming

Tactical Nuke (5e/0.5c/2r) Instantly kills all enemies in a zone.

YOU WIN! (5e/0.5c/2r) Instantly puts 250 ecto, z keys, and obs shards in your inventory.

Mrmoez 05:33, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * ursoclevar [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 07:48, 14 March 2010 (UTC)


 * BAMPH! already does half of that. You just need to figure out whom to sleep with. :3 On a second thought, they might get greedy and ask for your soul in exchange. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 13:06, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought you sold it the moment you agreed to the EULA Yeen  18:46, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Nah, that's just you selling any chances you had of having a life. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali 15:45, 20 March 2010 (UTC)