User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Underpowered Skills/Necromancer/Archive 1

Soul Reaping
The reason for setting the limit on soul reaping where you can only gain energy 3 times every 15 seconds was to keep n/mo's and n/rt's from being overpowered in spirit spam builds, right? Killing PvE MM's was just an undesired side effect wasn't it? Now that soul reaping doesn't apply to spirits at all, I think that limit should be removed, so MM's can be more viable in PvE again. 69.137.78.47 07:29, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * They are still perfectly viable in PvE, I use them all the time. Just take signet of lost souls with you and use it properly and all is well. --Ckal Ktak 08:47, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * MMs are still fine imo, but I don't like the timer either because it feels like roulett. 87.189.198.238 11:14, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * For general use, the cap really doesn't have much effect, even with tons of things dying in PvE. Really, the only thing this is a problem for is MM Necromancers, which can still squeak along just fine. Still, what with so many other hits to the problem types, perhaps Soul Reaping should at least gain back a little bit of it's old self? Perhaps raise the cap to five times every 15 seconds, or something of the sort. You really don't need more energy then that, if stuff is dying that quickly and you still need to worry about energy, then you're running way to many expensive skills. :P
 * But a question to Izzy on this one, do you think the current cap is still needed? Are MM's something that need to be kept in check this much? You got rid of a lot of the problems with the Necromancer Spirit Spammers, is that the only problem you've got with Soul Reaping? --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  12:08, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * There's no reason to remove the cap other than to make Soul Reaping even more overpowered than it already is in PvE. --Draikin 16:07, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Did you just use overpowered and PvE in the same sentence? There are so many more overpowered things in PvE, MM is pretty low on the list. 69.137.78.47 18:50, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * That's no excuse to break things even more, especially when there's no need to do so. --Draikin 19:33, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If a minion master hero can maintain 10 minions well enough, I'd say the build is still viable enough. --Racthoh 22:29, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think rather than buffing Soul reaping, the costs of skills often used by pve necs should be reduced. The 25e cost is Animate Bone Fiend is pointless...sure they're useful in NM, but in HM they drop much too fast to be worth it - should be changed to 15 (compare it's effectivness to other minions spells in HM). Spiteful Spirit can be a very great skill but I've been in plenty of situations where it's not exacly that useful, usually in caster-heavy areas. It used to cost 10e for a short time and I think it should be changed back. P A R A S I T I C 23:08, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I really don't think that undoing the Nerf/Limitation that hindered Soul Reaping abuse in PvP would be "buffing Soul reaping" as you put it, I think it would be more along the lines of repairing some of the damage that was done with poorly thought out Nerfs and Limits that were put into place because Izzy ignored all the poles on the forums and people saying that the best fix for the problem was not to destroy Soul Reaping, but rather to just remove the energy gain from spirits. Sure, this is what he eventual did, but why should the class continue to suffer because he wasn't smart enough to see the obvious fix from the start, like most everyone else did?  It's not like he ever provided any Core energy management skills or anything to compensate, so the class has been severally hindered for a lot of players for a long time now.  ~  [[Image:UserJKougar sig.gif|User:J.Kougar]]  J.Kougar  06:49, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * MM balance is fine. -- Readem 07:01, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeh, the OP evidently doesn't use jagged bones. It's pretty sick in PvE. - Auron 07:05, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not core, and maybe everyone doesn't like the idea of being forced to have every campaign just to make a class or attribute line viable for them, or maybe not everyone likes to be forced to use just specific skills just to be able to play their character they way they want them to? Some people do get bored with the cookie-cutter builds that are out there, make their own builds, or would have more fun using some other skills they happen to like.  The game is about fun after all, it shouldn't be a job where you have to have specific things and only play them in a specific way to meet the approval of everyone else.  What one person enjoys playing will vary greatly from what others enjoy playing, and having to own all the campaigns and use specific skills only to be able to play a class or attribute line, really only goes to show how poor of a job Izzy has done with Skill Balancing.  ~  [[Image:UserJKougar sig.gif|User:J.Kougar]]  J.Kougar  07:23, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd say we are far from balance concerning this for example. I think SR is still a bit too good when combined with minions. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 07:06, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Ever since those builds were posted, people seem to think Sab invented the whole necro/rit healing thing even though it's been out since the release of NF. That whole setup as a team is good but not overpowered - Many hard areas lack corpses so the mm becomes useless. Curse hero necs arn't very effective with SS and can't even echo it properly. An n/rt is a pretty good additon to any team but the way pve is designed, primary monks still outdo them in plenty of situations. With or without minions, pve necs still get a good steady amount of energy from pve but i wouldn't say its overpowered. P A R A S I T I C 09:43, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Lol, if anyone (Gem) thinks SR needs further balancing I'd encourage you to go look at the effect Jagged Bones has on Boon of Creation. An Rt/N can gain energy at will from minions and hits the energy return not once but twice for a single investment into an enchant. Better still, try the minion bomber on a hero and I promise you short of flat out denial they will never dip below 50% energy. All of this from a combination that can not only keep up with but potentially outpace necromancers at their own game especially in multitasking as a "minion" master. 67.191.245.177 19:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

SIMPLE FIX WITHOUT KILLING BUILD AND MABE MAKING BETTER: Make it 2 energy gain per point invested only affects FOES that die withing earshot. <--- IZZY RESPOND

Add Bleeding 3-18 secs to enemy. At max you only get like 24 hp back, bleeding would make this worth adding to a skill bar I think. Ashesfalldown 11/24/07

Increase duration to 15 secs. ashesfalldown 11/16/07
 * Why? It's already powerful in 4v4. Akirai Annuvil 16:59, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it's underpowered but I think it'd be alot more versatile if it was put in Soul Reaping so it can be used more effectively with different attributes rather than being forced to spec into Blood to use it. The only class using it right now are toucher Rangers and that doesn't seem right since they shouldn't even be using necro skills in the first place. It could probably have it's sac amount reduced to 10-15% since other classes would be unable to abuse it if it was changed. P A R A S I T I C 05:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You'd also shoot dead touchers, but then this skill is what blood magic is about. Energy management elites are not what Izzy likes any more. --Ckal Ktak 17:36, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * He sure did in factions and prophecies. Look at faction ele elites. --Deathwing 19:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I've tried to make a build using this skill, but the elite is very unpopular. many ppl, including myself, feel that this skill is too conditional for the life stealing. My suggestion for a buff would be to rebalance the two life stealling attributes to "Steal up to 18...52 health from target foe, If you were under 50% when you cast this spell you steal and additional 15...50 health from target foe" The end life stealing total is the same as before, its just that now it can be used as another vamp gaze when above 50% and if u use it while ur below, u steal some more health. (note this is at 0...12 blood magic) 68.226.80.7 03:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Mix it with sac skills like Blood of the Aggressor and Dark Pact so you can constantly meet the requirements when it recharges. This is especially true with Awaken the Blood on the bar to add 50% more sac damage while improving this elite for even more life steal. It actually works pretty well right now. You can't buff it too much since life stealing ignores all defenses, physical and magical. Unlike the Vamp Touch/Bite skills this can be done at spell range. arredondo 20:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's really a save me spell but it has a 1 second cast time..... WTF? I doubt the point of this skill is to make you sac all your health for such a minimal effect like u said. --72.74.237.104 06:34, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * At max stats this skill steals 138 HP every 5s. Doing 138 damage is significant but stealing it is amazingly effective and not a minimal effect. It gets past not only high armor foe's defenses but 99% of the magical defenses too. It always steals the full amount and can not be reduced (plus it heals you an equal amount). For that reason it has a fair penalty of requiring you to be <50% HP. It is possible to force your life to hover around 50% HP with sacrifices, and if attacked you simply stop sacrificing and let your foe bring you down to the proper HP; a good balance of risk and reward. --arredondo 08:45, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Two issues: the "still" in the wording means, you have to be around 30-40% to be sure it triggers. Second: when you are so low, a warrior will spike you down before you even think of 1sec cast. So make it 0.5s or even 0.25s and I'd be happy. Don't think, this could be abused actually. --Ineluki 20:47, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * One main problem is, if you get low enough to use this skill, a monk will probably already be healing you. If not, you are either playing a gimmick or your monks dead. The latter situation pretty much means you are going to die anyway. In the former, I've never seen a gimmick like this. --Deathwing 22:20, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You guys, this skill wasn't made to survive all on its own. You have to support it with your skill bar because it's true, your Monk is not your primary healer. For me I just let my Monk know to heal me when I click the HP bar if things look bad, and verbal communication on the mike works too. However it's not overly difficult to deal with melee pressure though. For me I bring skills like Shroud of Distress for instance. It syncs up perfectly with this elite because you block 75% of physical when less than 50% HP.
 * While that Warrior you mention is being blocked, I'm stealing life with Blood of the Aggressor, Ravenous Gaze, and in the future, the new Angorodon's Gaze. As for only waiting for 30% HP to make sure RG works, that isn't necessary. Just find out the EXACT health amount you need to be at for RG to work and it never fails. For a 455 HP build, that number is <196 HP for L15 Blood. You don't have to guess at all. RG may not be a GvG skill, but it works pretty well for fun builds. Here's one I plan to try once GW:EN comes out (scroll to bottom): http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Talk:Angorodon%27s_Gaze
 * --arredondo 05:33, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Compared to other Lifesteals this one is weak, and its an elite what makes it even worse. Yes, up to 120 Lifesteal sounds good, but in most cases your monk will heal you if you have less than half your life. If you try to save yourself with the lifeboost, Grenths balance is nearly as effective as this one, but it better scales with the lifeloss and making Ravenous Gaze Trigger ist much harder than getting life out of Grenths. What i suggest to do is:
 * Raise the base-lifesteal to 15..40
 * split the trigger: if your HP is below 75% steal another 7..30 life, if your HP is below 50% steal another 15..50 life.
 * Change the trigger so that below is enough, the "still" can be removed.
 * Those Changes give a better scaling to the skill and it is a bit stronger than Vampiric Gaze if you are below 75% wich is an not too hard to meet condtion for a build based on this skill. The Main Boost is still below 50%, but the skill is usable before you are nearly dead. With the strong new skills with GW:EN noone would really use this one if it isnt buffed a bit. Sir Astaroth
 * Interesting ideas, a bit too complicated IMO. In general, why must all Necro blood skills have life sacs, long casting times and/or difficult conditions to meet. In it's current state, a 30 non-conditional lifesteal is the damage of a warrior attack, but costs 10 energy and heals for nothing. I would suggest it to have the non-conditional life-steal of Vampiric Gaze, then we are talking about a blood elite that might see some use. Plus it would not work in blood spikes and start a new wave of uber-bloodspikes, not even Necros can sac themselves simultaneously down to below 50% without weakening themselves considerably. --Longasc 10:17, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

- Sometimes i use this skill in PvP, but it really isnt worth the eite slot. The hex duration is i think too short for my liking but considering the degeneration its fair. The recharge on this skill tho... just kills it. Its useless, If you only use it to save yourself it does virtually nothing. you're gaining 16 or 18 health per second but with an SP assassin after you, that doesnt do anything. currently this skill can only really be used defensivlely and even then it does a poor job. The recharge NEEDS to come down so it can be utilized more often, to 15 seconds i think. 68.226.80.7 17:32, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Good arena skill though, and game balance dictates that you need a few of these. I can see a 25 s or even a 20 s recharge, but 15 would be pretty close to an 100% uptime if you ran a blood guy in RA/FA/AB.  Sure you can inflict equal degen through Conjure Nightmare but that skill doesn't heal you and costs a whopping 25e.  ~Seef II &lt;☎&gt; 17:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree for the call to buff it. A 20s recharge is the sweet spot since no one currently takes it seriously as an elite (outside of some RA players). You still don't regen as often as Healing Breeze and you still don't degen as often as Conjure Nightmare, but altogether it is balanced for being an elite. arredondo 18:04, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A good way to buff this skill is to just increase the degen rate. Right now, it requires major speccing in blood to match the degen dished out by Conjure Nightmare. Lowering the breakpoints to 4...8 from the current 3...7 can do good for this skill without making it overpowered. A 5 second recharge deduction would work well together with the former mentioned. 76.64.59.41 05:49, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, here what i would do with this one:
 * Change Energy-Cost to 15
 * Recharge down to 20
 * Make all allys in within earshot gain half of the HP-Regen. (max. 4)
 * That really makes it worth the elite-slot as you also heal your party. For Minionmasters it is also interesting as it heals all minions around, in RA/TA it is same as before i think, noone who uses it now would kick the skill out becouse of he higher energycost as he supports his party a bit with that. the party-regen also would match Recuperation as party-healer.Sir Astaroth 10:18, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A simple reduction to 20 recharge could make this somewhat useful as a base ganker. I seem to remember just after Nightfall came out, a sin and a necro would team up and gank a base.--Atlas Oranos 10:12, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You people are crazy! This skill does more damage than life siphon, for half the cost, much faster, casting faster (thus harder to interrupt). Life siphon was already a decent skill, and its elite cousin is easily worthy of its eliteness. That said, some of the healing anti-hex spells (cure hex) decrease its usefulness somewhat. But that's an issue with cure hex, not life transfer.--24.128.87.220 03:50, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * maybe you should compare duration and skill recharge too 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The issue is that Reaper's Mark punks this skill, as does just about anything else. This is really about its viability in pvp, which is nill atm.--Atlas Oranos 03:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Elite Hex Spell. For seconds, target foe loses  Health per second, and you gain  Health per second. 10/1/10 --Deathwing  03:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Better than what is currently is.--Atlas Oranos 08:26, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * And that is saying a lot... Readem   Warning: Ignore this User if at all possible.  08:36, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I cant tell if that was sarcastic or if you were being genuinely serious.--Atlas Oranos 12:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Ashesfalldown Arcane Echo helps this Elite Spell out, but I do think at 16 attribute points it should be at 10 enemy degen/ 10 your regen. Ashesfalldown 11/17/07
 * A problem with making this hex cause health loss / gain instead of a degen / regen is that the target will still be susceptible to degeneration. Imagine losing 16 health per second, with max degen, making you lose 36 health per second.  Really, that's not too bad from a DPS point of view, considering most warriors, sins and dervs (even paragons) will put out a minimum of about 55 DPS, but it's still unconditional, and negates regeneration.
 * The problem with this skill isn't that it is outclassed so much as it simply doesn't DO anything. Reaper's Mark sees some minor use in RA since, for one, it's RA, and people are guaranteed to die quickly most of the time, two, it stacks well with other degen hexes in Curses (Transfer only has one other degen hex in the blood line to work with) and three, it gives back a reward.  All Transfer does is cause some minor unconditional degen.  And more importantly than anything, in the modern meta, degeneration will not kill someone on its own.  In Prophecies, Transfer could be incredibly dangerous if there was degen happening across multiple allies, but now it's simply a nuisance.  Good modern builds combine degen with powerful DPS.
 * There are... probably three solutions. 1) Halve the two sources of damage: Elite Hex Spell. For  seconds, target foe has Health degeneration of  and loses  Health per second, and you gain Health regeneration of  and  Health per second.  This won't do much of anything on its own, but it will allow more degen to be stacked onto a single opponent.  2) Make the effect AoE: Elite Hex Spell. For  seconds, target foe and all enemies near that foe have Health degeneration of, and you have Health regeneration of .  You won't actually be receiving multiple sources of regeneration.  You will simply receive a health regeneration as long as one of your targets is hexed, meaning that if your target is cured of his hex, if it's still on someone else, you'll still be getting a benefit.  More importantly, you'll be causing degen across multiple opponents, which will translate into pressure.  3) Give the hex a party-application:  Elite Hex Spell. For  seconds, target foe has Health degeneration of , and you and all allies in the area are healed for  Health per second.  This won't do much on its own, but when used across multiple Necromancers with their own targets, the effect can be bundled.  Imagine having 6 or more Necromancers using this skill and grouping together - it would effectively be 60 unconditional healing across every party member in an area.  Not too powerful, but useful.  There are lots of options here, but most of the balanced ones will just involve changing the skill's functionality. --Reklaw 18:18, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

What's with that cast time? --Ckal Ktak 13:28, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A lot of Necro skills have 2s or 3s cast times, including elites like Discord (awful) and Feast of Corruption (fair). --arredondo 17:56, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Just in case you've not been paying attention, Necro spikes lead to horrible PvP matches in GvG and HoH. I guess you missed the Discord spikes that were nightmarishly strong. Maestro Ed 10:13, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't miss those, I just feel there there's a lot of these blood magic spells which are simply not used due to lack of effectiveness compared with others. If the norm for blood magic an lifesteal was like this, I'd complain a lot less. Discord was death magic anyway. --Ckal Ktak 13:20, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Who is asking for unbalanced Necro spikes? Discord is now a horrible elite due to its cast time, plain and simple. I just stated fact. If it needed to be re-balanced, fine, but no skills should be nerfed to uselessness. A damage reduction for instance could've been considered, because no one in their right mind is going to use an elite slot for this skill if it has a two second cast time. --arredondo 15:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill will become a staple on my blood bars with the new blood skill, Angorodon's Gaze --Deathwing 16:15, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Bring the sacrifice cost down a little perhaps? --Ckal Ktak 13:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Absolutely! I have played with it a LOT and even for a niche elite it takes too much self-damage to use even somewhat seriously. And that's true in builds where I've maxed it out at L16 (it would be ridiculous to use AtB with it). The stats can receive a minor tweak to be useable. Have the sacrifice scale 25%...13%...10% instead of the current 30%...18%...15%. --arredondo 17:53, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Bring down the sacrifice cost. 87.189.229.209 22:57, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Elite Enchantment Spell. For 5 seconds, whenever a party member hits a foe with physical damage, that foe loses one Enchantment. For each Monk Enchantment removed, you lose 25...17...15% maximum Health.

OK, it removes Spellbreaker and Obsidian Flesh, but Rending Touch is so much better. The affect of this skill is pretty strong, but I have yet to see a Necro in GvG or PvP in general that uses this skill. Suggestion: 15 Energy, reduced life sacrifice. If it really removes 3-4 enchantments it is almost killing the Necro. --Longasc 09:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * For starters Rending Touch is a spell, it DOESN'T Remove those things. Secondly, even with the ability to rip otherwise unnremovable enchantmetns aside, the power of this skill is quite enough (I use it a lot in PvE, for what little that's worth), The fact it isn't used a lot on the meta isn't through it being underpowered in itself, The reason this isn't used is because of what else usually goes into a group, namely, not a great deal of physical attackers (Conjures are still pretty popular, but that doesn't work with this) although it feels odd that this skill isn't already being used in every single paragon team going.
 * I feel that this skill is simply lying in wait for when the meta shifts to where this spell would feel more at home, and then it will be used a lot, without need for any changes to it. Remember the good old days of RangerSpike in the halls? --Ckal Ktak 09:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * this skill desperately needs a energy cost reduction.68.20.17.16 15:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * No it really doesn't, I use this to great effect in PvE and HA and can safely say that the 25 energy is justified, It's not meant to be maintainable because of how destructive it is. lower the cost and you'll start seeing it on other professions, maybe even dervishes or assassins, and wouldn't that be silly? --Ckal Ktak 12:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Even in HA, Really this isnt used at 25 energy, by this i mean, people only ever use this skill when mixed with EW (most of the time) even with the EW and spirit health nerfs people are now bringing 2-3 EW's which really does make this skill overpowered since it makes it 10 energy and no recharge so it isnt effected by EW's downside effect. OblivionDanny 01:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Seriously, this is one poor elite as it stands, while it does allow for some interesting and amusing ways to kill a dervish when used with soul barbs an rend enchantmens. I really think the skill nees broadening somewhat. Perhaps have it shorten the lengths of enchantments cast on the target by a percentage as well. --Ckal Ktak 13:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This is part of those 'anti dervish enchants' skills that were designed before NF came out, along with stuff like Air of Disenchantment, Enchanter's Conundrum, etc. Then they overnerfed the whole enchant concept on Dervishes. And all those skills became pointless. Pain of Disenchantment is a nice concept, but the hex should be much more spammable to be interesting. Maybe something like 5/1/10. Patccmoi 15:13, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * To fix this, drop the cast time to 1c, it doesn't have an effect worthy of anything greater. Then either drop the cost to 5e and drop the recharge down to the 6-10 range.  Alternatively drop the cast to 1c, leave the cost untouched, and make this a nearby AoE hex.  The fact is this hex doesn't do enough a lone and really needs to be something you spam around on an enchant based team to punish them. -Warskull 16:41, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer making it remove an enchantment when its casted upon its target.--Cursed Angel 13:25, 19 November 2007 (UTC)


 * This needs a rework. 87.189.216.38 23:14, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Warskull's suggestion; the skill is not bad, it just needs spammability. Akirai Annuvil 16:52, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I think this should be adjusted to have a shorter duration and shorter recharge. It would be a nice skill for a Curses Necro in a balanced build, though I guess it's not necessary with Defile Defenses coming, I'd try both on the same bar. You could get some damage with Defile Defenses and put Rigor Mortis on so they can't continue to block. The clock on this skill is really bad though. It should be like 15 recharge and like 1...8 duration imo. I would have said 17~18 second recharge, but I can only assume those values are not allowed in Guild Wars for some reason? :P --TimeToGetIntense 07:05, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Personally I agree with you, Rigor Mortis doesn't help enough... But you would have to compare it to Expose Defenses, to balance it... Expose was weakened since it lasted too long, and Rigor Mortis is potent since it stops all blocking... However I personally prefer to bring Stance Removal and Enchantment Stripping to prevent blocking, That's usually effective enough. Curses is becoming the bane of paragons with the upcoming skills... up to 161 damage at 18 curses whenever you use a shout or chant, as well as Ulcerous Lungs causing -7 degeneration? That's a major OUCH right there.--Devvu
 * That's just to prevent Paragon stacking in GvGs. They're too specific to ever bring except in a Paragon heavy meta, wherein they destroy the large groups of Paragons. Then we go back to standard balanced and no one will ever bother to bring it. --Kale Ironfist 07:45, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't really like bringing builds targeting a specific other build honestly, I more prefer bringing builds that can counter as many builds as possible.--Devvu
 * 15 seconds recharge is too low, seriously. It's very easy to pull, especially for Me/N. You ever saw a MoR Me/N with Rigor? It's already very strong as it is now. Lower it to 15s recharge, and they can just throw it whenever a warrior switch target. Rigor has a very powerful effect, stronger than Expose, and should be balanced as such. I'd agree with reducing recharge to around 25s, but it shouldn't be something you can just throw around as people switch target, it should be a powerful hex that's reserved to make a spike go through block, just like Shatter Enchant is a powerful enchant removal reserved to make a spike go through SoD/Spirit Bond. I do feel that the recharge would be better at 25s, and that the duration should be lowered because i used it on Me/N at 0 curses and didn't give a damn, but you're suggesting a really big buff right now that completely changes the purpose of the skill. And lowering the duration won't really do anything to balance it overall since this would still be used for spikes or the like, just that they could do it over and over. Patccmoi 13:21, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point. But that's a problem with MoR. It's pretty annoying that when considering the balance of most spells, you have to consider MoR Mesmers and many spells have to suffer because of this. Anyway, Rigor Mortis has a sligthly weaker effect, overall, than Shatter Enchantment for aiding spikes, imo. I think the recharge should be no longer than 20 seconds. And keep in mind I'm also suggesting to scale the duration much lower. --TimeToGetIntense 21:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * (srry...wrng area somehow...Killer Revan 00:31, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I remember this seeing some use in rspike.... but then again that was prolly a year ago.--Atlas Oranos 10:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * iQ ran this in a ranger spike team during the factions world championship iirc. That build needs to get through "Shields Up!" so this is a pretty good solution for that. --TimeToGetIntense 12:09, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Rigor Mortis is very dangerous in conjunction with physical spikes. Thus this skill has to be approached carefully. Yes, it sucks now. However, things may suck more if it is good. -Warskull 02:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

It's funny that this is now just completely better than expose defenses, yet its still underpowered. Kinda brings expose nerfs into question imo.


 * That's the really clever thing, You can see this skill being used on an A/N, even with little to no points in curses, however, by doing that, that sin's just forgone being A/W for Tiger Stance. Having to choose one or the other is nothing like as broken as having both. That and Black lotus Strike being as it is now. --Ckal Ktak 08:31, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

This is too costly to use. 25 energy + 10% health sacrifice. Remove the health sacrifice. 70.132.2.120 05:20, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Naw keep the sacrifice, ditch the 25 ep for 15 or 20. Ajc2123
 * There are no 20 energy spells. 15 sounds balanced, as there are better non-elite ways to remove ALL enchantments on a necromancer's bar without using elites. RitualDoll 04:56, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Hex that does nothing but suppress shouts/chants. Needs other effects or it simply won't ever see use. Either AoE degen like Suffering (alter cost, recharge possibly), amplify some other effect, damage when ends/removed... something to make it have a use when there aren't Shouts in play. If it were only slightly less handy than another skill it might be useful - make it 15 energy, 15 recharge and -1..2..2 degen and it might be a suffering replacement with a bonus effect, but longer recharge and shorter duration (as an example). --Epinephrine 18:54, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This is already used alot in HA. OblivionDanny 23:20, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * If anything; this skill is over-powered against a team that only moderately uses shouts or chants. RitualDoll 21:23, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Not sure why this isn't already here. Seriously, giving up your elite slot for self condition removal when your monk will probably end up removing it before you can use it? And the other team's monk will probably remove the conditions you send in a flash too. How about adding "If you have no conditions on you, deal X damage for each condition on target foe"? Just to give it some flavor/use. --Heelz 05:25, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the trick to fixing this isn't to add damage, but add support. Rather than transferring all your conditions from yourself to a single target, make this elite transfer all of your conditions and 1...2 condition(s) from each party member to a target.  The way this elite is designed now is for a Necro to self-inflict a bunch of conditions and then transfer them all away.  However, the skills to make that a viable build don't exist, and as of GWEN, of course, will NEVER exist.  This doesn't have any potential as a viable condition attack elite as there are easier ways to apply conditions; the degen limit keeps this from being productive as a solo defensive elite.  It would be nice to have some support options on a Necromancer, and I think making Plague Signet capable of party-wide conditional removal would be nice.  To really make this viable and attractive in PvP and PvE, IMO, the skill should read as...


 * "Elite Signet. Transfer all of your negative Conditions and 0...1...2 Conditions from all party members to target foe and any foes adjacent to you. (50% failure chance with Curses 4 or less.)" 1 Cast; 12 Recharge


 * The recharge would have to be raised accordingly. As of right now, this elite is almost worthless in PvE and especially in PvP, like many Necro elites. --Reklaw 10:19, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Changes:"Transfer all Conditions and their remaining durations from yourself to target foe. If you are not suffering from a condition you become diseased for 1..15 seconds."
 * Reasoning: Needs some offensive oopmh
 * Questions: Should you suffer from a different condition than disease? or should you suffer from multiple conditions?(like burning, bleeding, etc... Jigoku 00:16, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Disease might prevent it from being used in PvP, as by self-inflicting disease on a backline profession, you're guaranteeing problems for your own support. There's no guarantee that you'll be able to get rid of it before it spreads to your team.  Disease would be wonderful for spreading a condition across the enemy's backline, but that's what disease is naturally for anyway.  (Having Plague Signet cause disease on yourself seems to just add a step in the process.)  If Plague Signet caused multiple conditions, even ones that don't cause degeneration, like... poison + blind, or bleeding + weakness, it would produce an instant cover condition, which would be very beneficial.  Combining Plague Signet with Epidemic could become a viable way to quickly spread chaos across an enemy's backline in the form of some minor pressure with instant coverage.  The question is, which condition(s)?


 * Chilblains, which is having an identity crisis right now, is the only skill in Curses that can actually apply a condition to the user, in the form of poison. It's fairly easy to apply Weakness in Curses.  Envenom Enchantments can apply poison to some extent.  Poisoned Heart isn't quite worth mentioning right now, but it does apply poison.  Point being, Curses is basically a poison skill line with weakness serving backup.  If Plague Signet applied bleeding, it could be used with Ulcerous Lungs.  It might defeat the point of why UL exists, but it would finally find its way onto my skillbar as a result.  I would say that having Plague Signet self-apply poison and weakness would make the most sense in the Curses line, but would also not offer any real benefit to the user as far as encouraging skills to work together.  Self-applying bleeding may cause problems when people start self-inflicting bleeding, then using Chilblains to self-inflict poison, sending both away, using Epidemic to spread them, and then using Ulcerous Lungs.   Then again, it's easy enough to self-inflict bleeding with some minor points in Blood, and no one uses that combo.  Alternative conditions like burning or crippled don't make a lot of sense.  Deep Wound might be a little too powerful.


 * The solution might lie in not adding any degeneration, but leaving Curses as it is: capable of transferring poison (but not easily), and making Plague Signet capable of offering support by self-inflicting blind and weakness, or even cracked armor. The main limitation in any choice you make would be Epidemic.  In the end, Plague Signet has to be powerful enough to trump other standard PvP Necro elites in some team builds, even without the ability to spread the conditions around.  Poison and Weakness might make the best choice after all. --Reklaw 21:48, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I would like to make a suggestion in the already suggested line of afflicting conditions to oneself. Make this signet work twofold: 1.) Clicking an ally: Transfer all conditions to yourself. 2.) Clicking an enemy: Transfer conditions to the enemy and nearby foes. Alternatively I can also imagine this signet adding 1-3 lengthy degen conditions to the user (poison + bleeding + disease?), then it would also have some use with Plague Sending which is still underused. --Longasc 13:59, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Add Bleeding for 3-18 secs to enemy. If enchantment is removed in this way. Increase Recharge. Ashesfalldown 11/16/07


 * No, I love this skill for the sake of its short recharge. Applying bleeding with this skill would make little sense in curses anyhow. Thats the point of this skill- its the fastest non-elete enchantment killer in the game.

Makes sense to me combined with Ulcerous Lungs won't have to waste a spot on Signet of Agony and Plague Sending. Save bit of room, only other one I can think to have bleeding added to the enemy would be Barbed Signet. I'd like to see a necro skill cause bleeding to a enemy, probably won't happen but one can hope. :P Ashesfalldown 11/24/07

Add shadow damage 8-40 damage on initial cast. Increase Recharge. That way its not a wasted spell if it gets removed. ashesfalldown 11/16/07 *Edited 11/19/07*


 * The functionality of this skill reminds me on ss, but this skill is too conditional to be useful. Ss deals aoe dmg, adding aoe knockdown would be overpowered, this is why it needs another added value like poison. Less conditional more useful: "For 5...17...20 seconds, target foe attacks 30% slower than normal. If that foe becomes the target of a Hex while attacking or using a skill, that foe is knocked down and all adjacent allies of that foe are Poisoned for 5...13...15 seconds." Edit: Well its a monk killer now but I don't care. 87.189.228.204 20:27, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that skill is underpowered. It is cool name and hard to cap but so useless. 15 Energy 2 Sec Cast with 30 sec recharge is too much. Skill has the Damage and power, but no one use it. Enar
 * Agreed. 87.189.203.46 13:24, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It should be nice at 20 recharge. Or at 15 rech 10 energy and lowering the damage a bit, so FoC-spike doesn't come back --Rayd 13:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * What are you people talking about? It IS at 20 recharge. --Ckal Ktak 10:06, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This elite has the same problem many others do: if used across multiple players, it can create a powerful series of spikes. So, they nerfed it down to make it barely viable as a coordinated spike, thus making it otherwise useless to a single person.  Pretty stupid.  Poor foresight.  I guess the only thing you can really do is turn it into a spammable AoE hex, to transform it from a spike skill into a pressure skill. --Reklaw 07:58, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Nerfed to uselessness. You can keep it on three whole minions at a time! Reduce recharge to like 8 second recharge and I'll be happy again. Antiarchangel 06:39, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Isn't this a key skill to Heroway builds? &mdash; Rapta (talk|contribs) 06:42, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No, not at all. It's not even used in heroway builds. The elite spots are Flesh Golem and SS. -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 11:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Considering this skill was originally nerfed in response to Soul Reaping abuse, now the SR has been adjusted, shouldn't this skill be returned to it's original recharge, or at least close to it?--Pyron Sy 12:23, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Possibly not, it allows you to provide around +5 energy regen without any subsequent deaths. Maybe if SR energy was removed from the spawned minions, and the recharge was reduced back to 5. Tycn 13:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That might work. Either that, or at least a reduction to maybe 8 or 10 without removing the SR from spawned minions.--Pyron Sy 14:19, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe just raise the level of the produced minion? if it produces level 20 Horrors instead, it would be usefull especially in Hardmode. A higer-level Minion also triggers SR just once. Raise the Engergy-Cost a bit with that to match the boosted effect, that would make it a very good skill again. Sir Astaroth 11:02, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe they can just make the energy gain from someone else's minions nonexistent and make this skill fun to play with again.--Atlas Oranos 10:18, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill is literally, one of the worst skills in the game. Buff plx. Readem (talk *gwwcontribs ) 20:13, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Rlly, no discussion about the worst skill in the game almost? Readem   Sorry, I'll stop trolling now.  07:45, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It could be changed back to its original version if Soul Reaping ever got a good fix. That's the only reason Jagged was nerfed.Shard 20:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Bump. Readem   Sorry, I'll stop trolling now.  22:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Elite Enchantment Spell. For 15 seconds, whenever one of your undead servant dies, it is replaced by a level jagged horror that causes Bleeding with each of its attacks. (Maximum of ). 10/1/30 Self-Targeting. Maybe? It is a huge functionality change, where a recharge buff would be sufficient, but yeah. --Deathwing  23:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Bump again. Readem   Promote My Ban Here  06:01, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Unnerf please. This used to be an interesting skill, but was nerfed to hell when it really wasn't even the problem. Return it back to 5/1/5. --Zarfol 02:33, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I dont see why its left to rot since soul reaping was nerfed.--Atlas Oranos 22:05, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

,, , &
These direct damage Death Magic skills are rarely used, sometimes a minion necro with a spare slot on his bar will haev one in an allience battle, but otherwise they're just a bit weak. Maybe some of these could do with being changed to shadow damage just to get them used a little more. Pertty much the only death necro you'll see in PvE is a MM, and PvP is MM or the occasional tainted since Discord spike went away.

Compare Vile Miasma or Fetid Ground to Vampiric Gaze, Deathly Chill to Shadow Strike etc. Needs more Oomph.
 * Deathly Chill is strong, Vile Miasma has its uses, I actually use it in one of my AB builds. Fetid Ground, I used it once on a Mind Shock ele in RA just for a fun build, and it actually did decent. Bitter Chill though, is a conditional flare, yay. --Deathwing 00:21, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I've used all of these too (in RA and AB), but they don't really cut it in terms of damage or pressure; you'll never see anyone in serious competative play use them. Maestro Ed 09:22, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Deathly Chill is fine. Bitter Chill is a conditional Flare, so it DOES lack something (Shadow damage instead of Cold imo, it's not like you can spam it to kill someone since it has 10s recharge if you have more health than him). Fetid Ground could use a bit more base damage i guess, but it's mostly hard to fit kds in a Death Necro build... Vile Miasma should have lower recharge, but the damage/effect are fair. Patccmoi 15:16, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

IZZY Please Vial Miasma to 10 sec recharge thanks.

Minion Targeting Skills
There are a lot of cool skills that target minions. However, there is one problem. Not a single skill IN THE GAME, besides these, requires you to physically CLICK on your target, and provides no way to highlight their name. Party members all have their name in a list, you can target enemies with target keys, you can hold CTRL or ALT to highlight enemy and allied names... BUT NOT MINIONS! Right now, typical minion mastery is the worst case of "passive offense" in Guild Wars IMO... you simply spam the raise minion button and an army does the fighting for you. It is braindead. The skills that would make minion mastery an "active" playstyle, while powerful, are unreasonable because it is just too hard to click the specific minions you want, not to mention get an idea of how the minion's health is doing. I think that an appropriate change would be to make death magic changed to read "For every 2 ranks in death mastery, you can have 1 undead servant", nerfing the passive "build an army and spam BoTM" strategy, then making a way to EASILY target the minion you want, like there is a way to easily target anything else in the game... at least make their names show up when holding alt! Then maybe minion mastery will be a more active, skill based mechanism... sort of like how heroes currently do it o_O -Rakeman 17:51, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * How about a minion panel just like the party panel that you can pull up. Antiarchangel 01:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, a minion panel would be great. -- Gordon Ecker 01:53, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I concur. Right now I am playing with my PvE necro bone minions+death nova combo among other things, and it is such a b!^(% to click on those moving objects.  Nice that slOlias can auto target them.  All I need is a cycle minion button...srsly. --Ravious 16:29, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Bravissimo! Exactly what i want too. This is the SOLE purpose i never use minion bomber builds. The minions are too damn hard to target. I would LOVE to see a minion-target menu be an option availaible.68.226.80.7 19:03, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Minions the way they are now are just good. I know its passive and all that and controlling minnions would make it more active so i'm pro that idea. The skills to keep minions alive are now pointless, since u can only have 10. Any MM knows that if your party doesn 't ***** to hard you have plenty of corpses to just refresh em before they. I'd say remove the degen they get over time lower the minion cap to like 5 max (1 minion extra every 3 levels, lvl 0 death = 0 minions, who cares anyway an mm wih 0 death is no mm) and let them function more as heroes and pets. Like that MM has more room for other death magic spells wich are now often neglected. that way it becomes more active, locking your minions onto targets will make it even more active. No degen will make the minions don 't need to de refreshed all the time, because now the degen is pointless, a minion dies and u have a new one. Givving the mm enegy to deal some dammage next to his minions due to energy of soul-reaping. (Alternativer for removing degen is giving the minions a life-span like a spirit, so they still have to be renewed, you just don 't have to spend saccing yourself all the time to keeping them alive wit BotM)84.192.118.21 07:52, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Eeeehhhh... No. That's a terrible idea on so many different levels.  —ǥȓɩηɔɧ  〚 ₮ /ḉ〛 08:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Instead of just saying NO, JIKES THAT STINKS, try comming u with an idea yourself. Its easy to break down opinions but i don 't see you brining up new ideas. One thing is sure Minions need to be more active. Maybe instead of making time for other spells, let minions be spammable, make every corpse exploitable 2-3 times, make minions 5 energy etc, and give em less health so u need to spam ur make minions skills.84.192.118.21 21:39, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The reasons minion masters are useful is because of numbers. By limiting their number of minions (again), you nerf their damage considerably. Furthermore, minions are stupid and will attack anything at first sight. This can be used to your advantage. Finally, minions are energy for the necro. Think soul reaping. There's probably a few other gaping holes I forgot to poke in your tapestry, but that should cover the basics.  —ǥȓɩηşɧ  〚 ₮ /ḉ〛 07:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If i take an MM i don' t take him for he dammage since minions are often dead in one spell from an ele, if i want dammage i take and ele. MM 's are just extended meatshields for me. Therfore if u make the minion idivudualy stronger but fewer in number they are more usefull to the team then before. Also i suggested lowering energy cost in order to not rape energy if the minions are but fewer. The only way minions do better dammage then an ele is if they get an order of the undead, and then the dammage is spreaded over mutiple targets wich i believe to be less usefull then (again) an ele. Also if u where able to target the minions as i suggested them u can put them all one target for dammage, or on difrent targets to soak up damage. Like that MM would be usefull for a change. 84.192.118.21 09:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This is just sad. MMs are usually the ones providing most damage. Because each minions individually does little damage means nothing, all together are dps machine that no ele can beat. Request some screenshots. Main reason why you dont see multiple mms in most patries is lack of corpses and minions make poor meatshield in elite areas. Zweistein 21:39, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This discussion is starting to stray off-topic, I've split it up into sections. -- Gordon Ecker 23:48, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, make it simple:
 * Make all spells targeting Minion autotarget the one with least hp if no minion is chosen
 * add an cycle-minion button to apply something like Deathnova etc.
 * add an hex-skill that says: Hexed Foe is Main target for all Minions.
 * Means that you need to sacrifice a skill-slot for minion-targeting, but i think its worth that. a cycle-minions-button ist enough to apply enchantments and buffs as you can only have 10 of them. Autotargeting the Minion with lowes HP on Minionskills just means you sacrifice the most damaged one or give jagged bones to it. Sir Astaroth 10:32, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * how about just have a single minion control panel identical to the pet control panel, set them to target one target, target whatever they want (kinda like they do now), or ignore stuff all together and follow you (its annoying when your minions attack a mob you are trying to avoid or a mob that they simply cant hit (different elevation/obstructed), don't have one panel per minion, but rather have one panel for all minions, then barbs and mark of pain might just make their way onto an MM build (IMO both are WAY underused), then you could also send all your bone minions with death nova on them after the same boss, so their death nova damage would all be concentrated rather than spread out. also have minions highlighted with Alt, or maybe give a minion only highlight button. i love minion bombing, but its just such a pain in the ass to do when u gotta click on a minion who's surrounded by at least 3 other allies/foes who obstruct the minion making it difficult to even find where your minions are, let alone select them.24.71.148.177 00:00, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well minions were actually intended to be stupid walking corpses for balance reasons. 68.89.124.113 23:46, 12 September 2007 (UTC) gah forgot to log Antiarchangel 23:48, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Minion controls
I'd like to add my suggestion of a Minion window with UI concept image --Just One More Thing 05:08, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Alittle off topic, but..
I hope Izzy is watching this page >.>--Atlas Oranos 01:22, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow.--Atlas Oranos 01:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Erm k. Readem   Promote My Ban Here  01:21, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This section of the underpowered skills seems to be a little dead.--Atlas Oranos 05:40, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * None of the underpowered skills sections have been getting much action since GW:EN came out. This one's the deadest (how fitting). I'm sure when skills start getting updated, the pages will start being more lively. Especially with lots of underpowered GW:EN skills. --68.106.223.233 00:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * ATM, the necros are most well balance of all professions. Mesmers and Rits have loads of useless skills. --216.113.208.132 02:57, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * They are hardly the most balanced Imo. Rangers, Warriors, and Monks come to mind when I think of that.--71.251.177.38 17:01, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know, not a whole lot of necromancer skills are useless. Some do have better alternatives, but in comparison to skills like Extend Conditions, Equinox, and Unyielding Aura, I think that most necromancer skills are pretty balanced. Curses for example, it is hard to NOT make at least a decent build. --Deathwing 05:17, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

list of Underpowered skills
what about quickshot. i know if you ad dmg it will be to spiky so anny idea how to boost it. also practis stance, i dont find the current effect usefull. The only use i can think of is chocking gass. what about this. 5e, stance, 20recharge for 10-24 sec your preperations cast 50%faster and cost 50%less energie and you can keep up to 2 perperation while under the effect of practisch stance. when practice stance ends you lose all preperations. and i dont see to manny overpowered combinations. even apply+barbed is jsut the same as barbed+poison arrow, and it only takes 2 skills instead of 3. I also tink that grenths balance should be cheaper and/or faster recharge. just find 10e little to high for the effect. also with 10recharge you can use it once and by the time it is recharged your probly dead. i like the idea but it is almost impossible to make good use of it. Also virulience is kind of weak. it has a to long recharge to really spam the conditions. and its kind of underpowerd for an elit. maybe it would be more used if you remove the requires an condotion and little faster casting.78.23.97.172 23:20, 24 November 2009 (UTC)