Talk:Grapple

Skill Tweaks 07/26/07

 * Grapple: added "you lose all stances"	 please discuss all skill changes here. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:23, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * nicely done! Would be interesting to see if any 'brace yourself' + 'grapple' + 'crushing blow' builds come into play.87.194.81.41 00:44, 27 July 2007 (UTC) Lorekeeper


 * Would need a paragon ally to assist. Fleeting Stability maybe? --Heelz 00:49, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You don't need a Paragon ally really, just a /P. Fleeting Stability can likely work on D/W, and it gives Dervishes a very strong skill. Or there's that Aura of Stability (is that what Steadfast was renamed to?), which can easily be used on your warrior by a midliner X/Mo. And when you think of builds like Zergway... how hard is it for them to use multiple copies of Brace Yourself! again? I think the other suggestion of 'if you're kd, they're kd' would've been much better to prevent abusive combos Patccmoi 02:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Watch yourself is target other ally, as is Aura of Stability. If you have an other ally to synergize with, more power to ya. Zergway is problematic, I agree, but more changes would have to take place than with just this skill.--Skye Marin 03:21, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Anyways here is my 2-bit: I think it should read. Target foe takes xx...xx damage. You and target foe are knocked down. You lose all adrenaline. This skill has a recharge of 20 seconds and cost 10 energy. This makes more sence as you use a stance when grappling and you use all of your strength to flip the other guy. Done25 04:14, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Lose ALL stances? I thought you could only have one stance? Maybe you should change the wordings a bit? It's a bit like thoose "transfer all negative conditions" .. since all conditions are negative ;) --Lexx 20:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * True story about the wohle one stance thing...However not all conditions conditions are negative. SOme are very positive in conjuction with certain skills, with which you can get damage bonuses and send your conditions to another foe. This may be exactly what you want to happen within your build, so i disagree with the whole negative conditions thing.


 * But if your conditions are supposedly 'positive' as you say, they still get transferred regardless. And also, if you use a stance while in a stance, then the new stance goes over your old stance, gets affected by the old stance, then the older stance is removed. So technically you could have more than one stance, even if it is for a split second. <>208.117.81.202 06:07, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Here's the problem as I see it. As it stands, this is now a cheaper, faster activating, 2 second Blackout (3 seconds for your target if you have Stonefist) that requires no attribute ranks, doesn't remove adrenaline, and still allows you to activate skills and shouts while down. It's a touch skill, so it also works with Expertise. Think R/W thumpers with Bestial Mauling. Ironically though, it's also worse than Shock for Warriors, with a longer recharge, loss of stances and, obviously, the self-KD. I'm not sure how I'd deal with this, but I foresee problems on several fronts. Arshay Duskbrow 09:58, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I do consider this skill a relative of the skill Blackout but in no way can you directly compare the two. The thing is that, unless you're wearing Stonefists, the "Blackout" lasts 2 seconds. The self-KD is limiting as you're wide open to melee/ranged attackers. Don't feel this is overpowered but when used right can provide for interesting play.
 * I personally don't feel it's worth a slot quite yet. Removing the foe's stance as well would make for an interesting skill and alternative to Wild Blow/Throw/Strike, but you'd have to increase it to 10 energy or 20 recharge for sure.  [[Image:User GD Defender sig.png]] 22:11, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Now, I love to use hammers, Earth shaker, with any other knockdowns, to deal damage and interrupt at the same time. With this skill ill have one more KD that (unless the foe is unable to be knocked down or has "Cant thouch this" On him) unblockable. Interrupting is always a usefull skill and i see great potential in this skill. ~Ajc2123 23:02, July 27, 2007
 * All stances. You lose your current stance. 1 stance only. ^_^ --Dragonious 03:32, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Wait a sec, something i dont get, do you really need to word it "All stances" i mean...once you put another stance on, the older one is deleted. You can never have more then one stance active at a time so...must it be worded this way? ~Ajc2123 10:37, July 30, 2007
 * Well, Barrage and Volley both state: "All of your preparations are removed", yet you can only use one preparation at a time, so it might be just to keep it in tradition or something. :P -- Luigi [[Image:Luigi shodansig.jpg]] (T/C) 21:52, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Personaly i disagree with this nerf. They nerf was used to keep steady stance wars fomr abusing it, but they abuse Drunken/Desperation all rdy, and this would ahev to replace one of those skills takeing alot of pressure out of the build, frankly if ur going to nerf this skill so it cant be used with steady stance, nerf drunken.desperation too.


 * Losing your stance is a good drawback since you can prevent KDs using "Brace Yourself!" or Steadfast Soul. But then again, you can have 3 KDs on your bar at once using this. Bull's Strike -> Shock -> Grapple. 9 second KD chain. I think it should fail if you're suffering from exhaustion. Even if you changed the order of your KD chain, you'd have to wait for your exhaustion to completely wear off before you do a 9 second KD chain again or even have use of Grapple at all. If you guys don't think 9 second KD chain off one guy isn't a problem though, nevermind. :) --TimeToGetIntense 04:35, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Would like to see brace yourself changed so that it requires a foe to knock you down. A high specced brace yourself+grapple can allow you to do your normal spike + an additional 60ish damage. Holymasamune 00:09, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

To coordinate a "Brace Yourself!" + grapple is actually very hard to do consistantly. It clutters up your vent, requires an extra two slots and is basically a KD +60 Damage. Not that spectacular but not bad. ~Living Parasite


 * They both have same recharge. How is it hard to do consistantly? Hell, if the Paragon has 10 Command (usual, he wants a shield after all), he can pretty much use it on you on recharge, and if you use Grapple on recharge, you'll have BY! on your back every single time. No communication needed at all. Ofc BY! could run out if you happen to be knocked before you Grapple, but then again it saved you from a kd before and at worse wait for next BY! to Grapple. I can easily see this becoming a very standard combo. What Time said is really true : Bull's Strike->Shock->Grapple can make for HUGE knockdown chains, without even using a hammer (can't you see Evis-Exec-Bull's Strike-Frenzy-Rush-Shock-Grapple? Hell, you could even use Flail since you can keep your target knocked for so long and you'd have more energy). And 2 out of 3 skills can't be blocked in any way except not being melee (oh, sorry, Can't touch this!!!). Seems like quite mindless kd lock to me that can take out someone from play for a long, long time. Hell, you could even extend the kd lock longer to score kills if needed at the cost of exhausting yourself twice (and you could extend it to be very, very long). I really think the 'they're knocked if you're knocked' conditional is needed to prevent mindless abuse from this Patccmoi 19:59, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Question
If, say, you had Stonefist Gauntlet's, would you both be knocked down for an extra second or just the target? - Moo
 * Increases knockdown time of FOES by 1 second. (Maximum: 3 seconds) (Non-stacking) Xzabre 15:23, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I have tested it in Isle of nameless and you both are knocked down for the same time even with stonefist insifnia.
 * Epic fail by xzabre there :P 60.234.157.213 06:58, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Original skill feedback
Combine this skill with the knockdown insignias and the other EotN skill "I Meant to do That" and you got your self a good combination Sword of Slashing
 * Combine with Aura of Stability anyone?!(...obviously not on same bar!) -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 01:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * How about "Brace Yourself!"? The warrior isn't knocked down AND he deals damage to one nearby person (who is probably the guy he grappled!).  Rakeman 03:09, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Steady stance anyone?Jelmewnema 06:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Monks won't like this at all. Imagine two or three Steady Stance warriors with Stonfist Insignias taking their turns with this skill. Arshay Duskbrow 08:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Steady stance abuse...yeah. Don't need to make one of the most retarded warrior builds any stronger. CHANGE PLS. --Symbol 09:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

combine this with Pulverizing Smash on a steady stancer and you got one crazy pressure machine. Nerf it somehow please... Maybe don't let it trigger steady stance...

Nerf Fear Me's range so that kiting gets you away from them unless crippled or increase adrenaline. Or SS recharge needs an increase. Otherwise it will be completely broken.--Renegade 17:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

"Target touched foe takes 10 damage, and you are knocked down. If you are knocked down, that foe is knocked down as well." Perhaps? (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 17:59, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Needs to remove stances before the effect of the skill. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:24.166.5.29.
 * That would work as well, I think. After all, if you're grappling with someone in RL, any stance you might take is out the window too. [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 19:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Signed, seems a good way to deal with it.--Renegade 19:08, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Signed as well. That's a very clever and appropriate suggestion.--Redfeather 13:59, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Doesnt "fix" the brace yourself version though, which is probably as powerful as steady stance for this. Also, even if you DO fall down when using it, the skill is still overpowered with stonefist gauntlets. I'd say is needs to cost more, have a longer recharge and also add the suggestion of Aiiane that it only knocks the target down if you go down too.87.194.99.197 14:12, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Shock much? This skill is only insane on steady stance, its nothing new otherwise. FoxBat 15:50, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Shock causes exhaustion, limiting it's use. 2 seconds out of twelve for a monk sat on the floor, with no way to block it seems unreasonable to me. Like if they made Shock a warrior skill and removed the exhaustion from it. The point is it's too easy to turn the disdadvantage of the skill into an advantage, whereas you cant do anything about the exhaustion, or the skill disable/adrenaline loss from Shove.87.194.99.197 19:32, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Steady Stance warriors are already powerful, this would push them into total imbalance. Combined with Steady Stance it would seem to be a 3 second knockdown with little negative effect. Geek Convention 19:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * "I meant to do that!" Might make this useful if you could handle the knockdowns somehow.

Lose all adrenaline. Double the recharge. Make it either 10e or a melee attack. I can't describe this skill as anything less than disgustingly broken. 66.67.187.203 02:30, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

This skill screams overpowered on Steady Stance Warriors. This needs some kind of drawback, at the moment this skill is an unconditional KD that goes through blind, block, and hexes. Living Parasite 06:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The skill icon looks familiar to me, but I cannot determine why. It looks like a reference to a movie. --Longasc 10:43, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

A lot of the proposed nerfs are to harsh. Maybe 10 Energy, or removes all stances, but probably both. Sword.wind. 17:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

All this skill needs is a "Lose your stance." condition. Steady Stance Warrior don't need any help. Living Parasite 19:05, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed with the lose stance or only knocks down target if you are knocked down. Steady Stance would be pretty crazy paired with this. --Rururrur 14:23, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Interesting idea on the lose all stances, I'll think about it some. ~Izzy @-&#39; 19:48, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

this skill is weak, only overpowered when using steady stance, that means no need to destroy this skill. The fix: Grapple: Skill. Your elite non attack skill is disabled for 3 seconds. You and target touched foe are knocked down. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:80.133.88.96.


 * It wouldn't matter if your elite skill gets disabled for two seconds with Steady Stance since you would be using it before Grapple. --Rururrur 21:49, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Please don't add the "lose stances" in this skill. I think adding a "If you are knocked down, that foe is knocked down as well" part as Aiine said earlier is enough, if you can do this. If you can't do it, then adding the "lose stances" part is the only way to prevent "steady stance" use. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:194.251.240.117.

"If you are knocked down, that foe is knocked down as well." I would support this as well. Anyways, either option works, this skill is just an uncoditional KD when paired with Steady Stance and that needs to be stopped. 75.66.67.12 01:26, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That makes perfect sense to me - if they fall down but you don't (via use of Steady Stance or whatever), then it's not a Grapple, it's a Shove. &mdash;Dr Ishmael User Dr ishmael Diablo the chicken.gif 01:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I really agree with the 'if you're knocked down, they're knocked down' condition too. It really makes sense with a 'grapple', and it prevents abuse from more than Steady Stance (can easily think of Steadfast Soul used on you by a midliner). You could possibly add the 'lose all stances' on top, but it's not as necessary as this condition. You really need to prevent abuse from Brace Yourself!, Steadfast Soul, etc. that are all on the same recharge too. It's really not hard to use Brace Yourself! on the guy for a Paragon midline, and suddenly your Grapple becomes a non-elite Shove with no drawback. Far too powerful imo. Patccmoi 13:58, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Skill. Lose all Adrenaline. All of your other non-attack skills are disabled for 10...6...5 seconds. You and target touched foe are knocked down. (Attribute: Tactics) -- 5 Energy, 3/4 cast, 20 recharge. Non-elite version of Shove. Why punish the use of Steady Stance? There's quite enough defensive KD counter in the game (Ward of Stability, anyone?).


 * It's not that powerful on one or two Steady Stance warriors, but look how many teams run the zergway/iway teams in Halls. When there are five warriors running around using this with Steady Stance and no drawback the ONLY way you can get that much anti-kd is to build solely against it making your team weaker to anyone not running it.  Yeah, you can use a Ward of Stability forcing all your monks to stand in one nice little "nearby" area for "Fear Me!" so either way, it's a win win situation for zergway/iway.  And if i remember right, didn't Gale get nerfed because it was an easily chainable kd?  This is just too huge a supplement to the already mindless zergway/iway teams to remain as is.  --Rururrur 15:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Another class that could potentially make very good use of this as it stands, even if you add 'lose all stance', is D/W that would use Fleeting Stability. It's an enchant that prevents from being kd, and it would give Dervishes a very good kd skill, something they badly lack. On something like an Ebon Dust linebacker, it could be quite interesting. The kd is just 2s though, but that's still quite good. Patccmoi 23:50, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

You are knocked down for 3 seconds please.
 * Nice skill, can give some new like to some useless war skills. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:213.140.6.120.
 * Any warrior that uses knockdown gloves will be knocked down for 3s. ~Izzy @-&#39; 19:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Very overpowered, will cause a great deal of problems for Monks in particular in PvP. Needs double the Cost (10 energy) and a slightly longer recharge.82.163.43.17 15:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)Sophitia

The Deep
The warriors should bring this instead of Shove so they can then use a good elite. :) 72.66.17.219 01:05, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Faster recharge too. Thing is, what else could you use? --Kale Ironfist 00:04, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Tried it during the preview weekend. Conclusion: "You Move Like A Dwarf!" blows it away for Deeping. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 05:10, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Awe
This wil work very nice with Awe on a melee Paragon. Another great skill! Nicky Silverstar 06:55, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * How exactly? You're knocked down the exact same duration as they are, so Awe won't be used until they're back on their feet, rendering it a wasted skill. --Kale Ironfist 07:11, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I am assuming he is figuring that it doesn't get nerfed... Regardless of stance removal, there are enchantments that prevent KD. 63.230.127.193 19:10, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Awe is a skill, so you can activate it while knocked down.145.94.74.23 19:58, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Awe has a cast time, so you can't activate it while knocked down. --Edru viransu 20:28, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Permanent Stance
Stance about to run out -> Grapple -> "On Your Knees!" -> "I Meant to Do That!" -> reapply Stance. Energy management might become an issue. Also not sure if that would be actually useful for a practical build, but I love the synergy here. :) --84-175 (talk) 08:04, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Dwarven Battle Stance Done25 14:57, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Not-so chainable. Dwarven Battle Stance cost 10 energy.  You can't maintain it for more than a minute.  Lightblade 08:50, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Translation Suggestions
To avoid some bad skill translations i'm opening a comment for new skills so everybody can post their translation suggestions in various languages, have fun :) --YukoIshii 23:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Italian: Presa --YukoIshii 23:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Two Words
Shadow Walk
 * Three Words- Sign your comments. Ninjas In The Sky  10:30, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * :)) 92.85.197.88 11:54, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

This Skill on a...
I have been using this skill in TA for a few weeks and it works GREAT on a ranger. You can Quarterknock by using grapple- Lightning reflexes- Dshot, you can Lineback, and its another interrupt be it a slower one. All in all, this skill is very good and I can see it becoming even more popular in the Near future- Regno

Related Skills
Potentially, could this skill be compared to Blackout in that:
 * 1) They both "disable" you and your target for a small amount of time
 * 2) They are both touch skills

Thoughts? --''' Gah Eat my uber regen. ''' 02:45, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Na chill dawg, different mechanics. 1 disables whole skill bar (can kite) the other knocks down (can activate no cast time skills IE shouts stances). -/- Discuss 00:44, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Cancel Stance
Has anyone used this with success as a cancel stance? I.e. Frenzy -> Taking Damage -> Grapple, maybe even coordinate this with another Hammer Warrior to smash the enemy on the ground? Just strikes me as the actual purpose behind this skill, its like a way of getting rid of your unwanted stance while still being a nuisance to the enemy. Still seems kinda weak though.Grikitis 02:05, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

AWESOME with...
Shadow of Haste and Shadow walk,so They enemys alli's dont take advantage of YOUR Knockdown-- Neil2250  19:21, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Dolyak signet
Why isn't this mentioned?--88.16.232.238 13:39, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Why would it be? Oh you mean non stance Anti KD,Read the convo's above.-- Nei l2250 User Neil2250 sig icon5.jpg 09:54, 5 December 2009 (UTC)