User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Underpowered Skills/Warrior/Archive 3

Primary Attribute without effect: Strength
There is no other primary attribute out there that has less effect than Strength (the only other comparable bad one is Spawning Power). If you don't need skills from this line you only invest skill points because of your shield (except you use tactics, than you won't even skill this line). All other PAs have an supporting effect for the efficiency of the class. Most of them help to manage your energy, except Monk and Mesmer ones (but they have other important effects). Warriors don't get any advantage except if using a skill, what makes this skill line absolutely identical to other non PA-lines. My suggestion is to give the line a slight change to enhance its importance, without changing the warriors mechanics. Perhaps giving warriors directly an armor ignoring extra damage (+1 point damage for every 2 points in strength) or giving them extra armor (+1 armor for every 1 or 2 points in strength) could improve this PA, without causing imbalance to the whole game? Am I really the only one thinking, warriors don't have a real PA at the moment (since the beginning)? ^.^ A. von Rin 21:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I've missed to mention the effect the PA has now: 1% armor penetration for each point in strength (only when using an attack skill), which - I think - is nearly forgettable... That's why I wrote this text. A. von Rin 21:30, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Seems fine to me. I never invest in Tactics.  Then again, I PvP.  What you're talking about is PvE nonsense.  Strength is vital in boosting your damage during a skill spike.  You don't see warriors running around GvG using Healing Signet for a reason.  --Reklaw 03:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's a weak primary attribute because warriors as a whole are extremely powerful. Giving them extra autoattacking damage is the last thing we want to do with a class that already deals over 50 DPS just by swinging his axe and activating one skill. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 05:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Naw, Reklaw, it's because Healing Signet is bad unless you're splitting... without your flagger for some reason. You can run 9-11 strength and a similar amount in tactics with very little impact on you skill damage. But anyway, yeah, it's good enough the way it is. It's actually not that good on it's own, but Warriors have the most passive advantages of any profession. High armor, high attack damage, Stonefist Insignia, Rune of Superior Absorption and the Strength armor penetration. Some of these are small effects, but the fact is that they have a lot of passives compared to the other professions. --TimeToGetIntense 14:48, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

+
Useless for warriors because they sacrifice mobility or an elite slot in exchange for survivability. A warrior with either of these is no threat, and will just be ignored, making the defensive bonuses meaningless. Glad's Defense, Riposte, Deadly Riposte, and a bunch of others suffer from similar problems, but at least could be used by non-monks (but there are of course better defensive options).72.211.155.160 08:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Dolyak - Considering the huge armor bonus that can be kept up indefinitely and is "only" countered by Ignorance Is perfect for Strength tanking in PvE, where its possible to just stand and soak up damage. No one in their right mind will even consider this in PvP. No changes needed and its not "that" underpowered.
 * The problem here is the stupid PvE monster AI that wails on "tanks". --72.211.155.160 17:02, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Defy Pain - Ever since armor stacking nerf this is truly a waste.Biz 11:18, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Defy Pain is a horrid skill now after the armor nerf. It was decent before it, but now it's crap. As for Dolyak, it has its uses. As said above, some kind of Tanking, and farming builds. --Deathwing 12:39, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe Defy Pain could have a damage reduction ability instead of the armor? Elite Skill. For 12 seconds you have an additional Health and reduce received damage by . I'd really like to see this buffed back to a useful tanking skill. - [[Image:User HeWhoIsPale sig.PNG]] HeWhoIsPale 12:55, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Seems like balancing for pve is like trying to teach a cat to tie your shoelaces. It's inherently a bad idea and whatever you do, the cat will whine a whole lot. IMO there shouldn't be any de facto PvE only skills. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:72.211.155.160.


 * Reduce Dolyak movement penalty to 25%, or maybe reduce duration/recharge to 5/4 so it's not as much of a commitment. Prolonged minor snare and giant armor boost vs. small commitment and antispike armor when you need it, but no kiting.  As for Defy Pain, damage reduction is probably the best idea.  [[Image:User GD Defender sig.png]]| GD Defender  /  contribs 17:25, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Even if you buff it to add DR, it's still crappy. Warriors wasting their elite slot on self-only defense are just going to be ignored, since they are little threat and hard to kill. Think about Healing Hands paladins for a minute, realize that HH can at least be used on someone else, and ...


 * Do you really want to see more dolyak signet + healing hands + vigorous spirit warriors in RA? I don't. This skill is fine as is, if anything make it worse. --Tankity Tank 23:02, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sez a ranger ^^, replacing armor bonus with damage reduction would work perfectly for most part and its not healing so high damage skills would still kill the tank quite fast. Biz 07:48, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Give PvErs PvE skill please, make them overpowered on purpose. Make normal skills PvP-viable. Few exceptions are OK. Servant of Kali 14:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Then you agree this can go under 'few exceptions'. Certain skill theories are difficult to balance for all game types, and I'm sick of PvP players completely ignoring PvE.  I bet you didn't know you can only have 3 PvE skills on a bar, or that heroes can't use them? --  Arkhar  01:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * "Tanking" and related skills encourage degenerate, passive, "wad it all up and nuke the shit out of it" gameplay - there's no good reason that I've ever seen to encourage that kind of play style. Given that context I think these two skills are just fine as-is. --Tankity Tank 01:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * leik, when was defy gud guys? I srsly don't remember. Could someone plx refresh my memory, about it being gud and all? Readem   Promote My Ban Here  06:18, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * when it was the only elite you had? ^^

I really whish that Dolyak would get its duration and recharge sliced in half. That would make it much more effective. Done25 16:51, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
 * No it wouldn't. 81.178.96.117 16:58, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And why not? Done25 17:00, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
 * In PvE, you maintain it all the time, so this doesn't do anything except make you click a bit more. In PvP, self inflicting a 75% movement decrease means you can't catch anyone to hit them, it would still last long enough for the other guy to have run a long way from you. Lord of all tyria 17:07, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It needs to have a lower self-snare so that you can use Cripple to keep up with your foe. Or being able to use a speed boost on it is a good alternate. Done25 05:50, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Dolyak sig needs max of 66% speed debuff and stacking doesn't go beyond 50%. 75% is more than any hex out there... --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 17:09, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * correction: any hex not including conditional/situational -90% from mind freeze/winter's embrace/binding chains/icy shackles/earthen shackles. Only Icy Shackles is actually used often. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 17:12, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Please fix Primal Rage? It has such potential, but the "disables all skills" aspect not only makes the skill itself useless, but it also completely nullifies the Warriors primary attribute for its duration. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:71.17.165.30.
 * Its not broken just inherently bad. Some kind of build in attack speed boost would do a lot, but as it is right now, hardly worth using. Biz 08:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a skill that tells you to buff up and whack away mindlessly. The only way such a skill would ever crack the meta/be used is if the damage bonus was absolutely retarded. Skills like this are just bad for the game if they were comparable in power to, say, Eviscerate. This skill would need a big rework and there are other things right now more deserving of attention. --Tensei 14:13, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Energy cost to 10, disables skills for seconds. Fixed. --Deathwing  06:16, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The main problem with this is isn't that it doesnt do enough damage. The problem with it is that it disables your skills. This is extremely bad for a warrior as they cannot build up adr with this skill, unless those skills are like 2-4 adr and even then 4 is pushing it. It needs to function like vow of strength and just make it so u cannot use your attack skills, not disable them. --Lou-Saydus[[image:User Lou-Saydus Hail Storm.jpg|19px]] 17:43, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This is an elite that essentially tries to create a passive DPS build. Pure DPS builds aren't used in GvG.  Shoot, they're rarely used in RA, and for good reason.  You can't have passive DPS outdoing active DPS, so this essentially is an elite for the worst kind of build in the entire game.  The concerns about using weapons or enchantments to buff the damage also neuter this skill.


 * "Elite Stance. If you are under the affects of an enchantment or weapon spell, that spell is removed. For 2...5 seconds, you attack 33% faster but cannot gain adrenaline. When you use attack skills, your attacks have an additional 10...46...55% chance of being critical hits and have 20% armor penetration."  5 Energy, 15 Recharge.  This would turn Primal Rage into a buff that compresses normal damage attack skills into a spike.  It would be like using Frenzy, but with a much higher recharge, and no adrenaline benefit from the IAS.


 * "Elite Stance. Lose all energy and adrenaline. For 10 seconds, you attack and move 25% faster and gain 25% more adrenaline." 5 Energy, 10 Recharge.  This would turn the skill into a IAS and IMS in one, but would make using energy attacks consistently nearly impossible, and make it very difficult to achieve a spike outside of using other adrenaline gain skills.


 * "Elite Stance. If you are under the affects of an enchantment or weapon spell, that spell is removed. For 5 seconds, you attack 33% faster, and all of your attacks have an additional 10...46...55% chance of being critical hits and have 20% armor penetration. When this stance ends, Primal Rage disables all skills for 10 seconds." 5 Energy, 5 Recharge. I'm not sure about this one, but you could also simply make this an elite that functions like it always has if you choose to abuse it, but can act as an efficient spike.  I know if this function was added, it would be one of those worry skills that might or might not negatively impact the meta, but you have to remember that skills like this still have to compete with "real" elites like Eviscerate and... well, Eviscerate. --Reklaw 19:32, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * This skill seems more like an attempt at bar compression for warriors, it's simply a pity it had to disable all skills, not just attack skills. But then it would just be a warrior's Vow of Strength then --Ckal Ktak 20:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually I finally found a use for this. With a Sin and Axe, kinda like the sin scythe.

Even though it has a little less crit chance then Way of the assasin, it puts out more damage overall with the penetration (I tested it out) And with tactics, the sin has almost good armor, along with crit defences. Although i admit, it lacks a bit with just pure power and no other conditions. Ajc2123


 * How about 10e/2c/20r "Skill: For 10...20 seconds you move and attack 0...33% faster, gain 0...50% more adrenaline, and have an additional 0...50% chance to critical. This skill disables all of your skills for 10 seconds" Done25 23:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thats overdoing, ias and movement speed + the critical and adrenalin? By the way, you cannot gain adrenalin while the skills are disabled, however providing you have it last 20 seconds, the last 10 seconds could gain up adren. but still, that seems overpowered, just like dwarven battle stance ^_^ lol Ajc2123
 * I doubt even then it would get used. --66.45.173.98 19:00, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The big problem with this skill is that it tries to increase DPS, and does a poor job of it. To top that off, you won't kill a monk with pure DPS unless that DPS is coming in a lot of packets in a very short period of time, or is just a massive chunk.  IE, 10 damage 100 times over 5 seconds, or 500 damage 1 time over 1 second.  Primal Rage is more like... 80 damage every second.  On a good day.  It also encourages people to bring things like conjure, signet of strength (ha!) or judge's insight.  Stacking all that together for some very minor damage accessory just does not work.  This elite suffers the same problem as Battle Rage: you invest your entire bar into putting out a sort of high DPS that won't kill an adequate player on a good team.
 * You might see this skill used if it was something like this:
 * You lose all enchantments and your skills are disabled for 10 seconds. For 10 seconds, all of your attacks deal +5...20 damage, have an additional 10...58% chance of being critical hits and have 20% armor penetration. When Primal Rage ends, you gain 2...8 strikes of adrenaline.
 * Get rid of the "I have to use Judge's Insight with Strength of Honor and Signet of Strength to make this skill work at all" crap and recognize that an elite like this will not kill anyone on its own. In fact, it will likely kill you.  The main advantage of a rework like this is not in its meager extra DPS, but in its ability to apply pressure and then instantly ready a non-elite spike.  The biggest problem with skills like this on an attack profession is that you have to kill your skillbar with things you can use that never involve attacking, just endless buffs and self-heals that ultimately do-not-help-you-score-kills.  --Reklaw 08:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Weakness kills Primal Rage. [[Image:User BaineTheBotter Icon notify before deletion.jpg|19px|||My Talk]] BaineTheBotter  08:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * This one should disable all skills but attack skills, then it would be worth an elite skill slot... A. von Rin 22:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure a lot of people remember hearing Strength was getting its own active heal and shouting for joy, only to see the skill in action later and curse its existence. There are a lot of issues with this skill. Lion's Comfort is essentially a Tactics skill located in Strength. You could easily switch their places and the skill description would not change. I had it pointed out to me by someone else that you could also easily make this an unlinked skil with the description: "All of your Signets are disabled for 12 seconds. You are healed for 30 Health, and you gain 5 Health for each rank in Tactics and 3 1/3 Health (round to nearest) for each rank in Strength." Basically, this is NOT a Strength-based active heal. Someone bringing a Tactics build would actually benefit more from using this skill than someone with a Strength-based build. The skill appears to be an attempt to "encourage" ("force" would be a better word) people to split between Strength and Tactics if they want to actively heal with most of their points in Strength. The problem here is that Strength is no longer overpowered, so having a carryover philosophy of denying a primary a decent active heal isn't really applicable here anymore. Tactics is also a very good line on its own. There's no reason to "encourage" splitting the attributes when so many people will do so anyway. Lion's Comfort should be reworked so that it's pure Strength, and have the heal boosted to compensate.

I think what annoys most people about Lion's Comfort is the signet disable. Twelve seconds is insane. If a monk goes down in combat, a warrior cannot stop to heal to cover his health as he tries to get off a cast of resurrection signet. This healing skill works best if you already have a healer. This skill also denies the use of other signets like Remedy Signet, or even Dolyak Signet (a strength skill, although no one would realistically use it in PvP). Why does this skill lock your signets for 12 seconds? I assume it's because of the forseen tendency for a warrior to bring both Healing Signet and Lion's Comfort at the same time, and cycle between the two. So half of the problem lies in the skill's initial philosophy of "encouraging" a Strength-Tactics split. Of course, removing that encouragement won't fix the problem. (If that really is a problem. Is having Healing Signet and Lion's Comfort really that big of a deal?)  A simpler solution might be to add a recharge to Lion's Comfort based on the number of signets on your bar, or to simply disable any signets that are linked to an attribute (so that resurrection signet can be used freely.)  There are a lot of potentially less annoying solutions here.

Right now, Healing Signet is simply a better choice in a split att build, despite the double damage. Pure Strength warriors don't really see much of a health gain from this skill, even by dumping their remaining unassigned attributes into Tactics. The only reason why you even see this on a bar is because Strength doesn't have an alternative choice. I Will Survive is unreliable, and currently needs a recharge buff anyway. I Will Avenge You might see some use on FOTM builds or in Alliance Battles, but that's it.

Understandably, warrior self-heals always have some sort of drawback. Lion's Comfort is its arenaline requirement, and relatively low health gain, and the only Strength heal that requires a cast time. It doesn't need all of the drawbacks it currently has. At the very least, I would like to see the signet disable reduced based on either your Strength or Tactic attribute. If you have a very low Tactics attribute, the recharge might only be 3 seconds. Or, if you have 16 Strength, it might be 3 seconds.

This is a "good skill" right now only because there are so few other choices. For people that like to run pure Strength builds without the benefits of any Tactics skills, this skill leaves a lot to be desired, and creates a lot of frustration in a fight since it cannot be used except in niche situations. In between the adrenaline gain, cast time, the need to stop and remove blind, trying to get through blocks, the signet disable and the low health gain, Lion's Comfort can be extremely limiting. --Reklaw 21:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the reason that this skill disables signets is that during Nightfall's development, IWAY was still popular and effective in HA. IWAY Warriors can't afford to use Tactics at all. I think there was a lot of fear in putting good skills in Strength because of IWAY. Disabling your Res Sig pretty much owns the crap out of any skill usually, so that keeps it off IWAY Warrior bars. It's also possible that it was considered too good in PvE, so it was made to disable Dolyak Signet. I don't think anyone would have used it seriously even without the signet disable, though. The great thing about Healing Signet is that you don't need Adrenaline, and it's drawback is only really important when there are a lot of enemies in which case you should have Monks and such with you. --TimeToGetIntense 21:20, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Never mind disabling signets, its not a big deal, but what is worse is this being multiple attribute skill, making it purly strength will remove the urge of even taking healing signet, if you are able to heal for 130-150 at 15 str then maybe its worth taking. Biz 09:56, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Can anyone tell me why this is still in Strength when it receives a bigger bonus from Tactics? Or why it still has the clunky Signet disabling? Done25 17:03, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
 * So you don't pair it with healing signet I assume Anet doesn't like the idea fo warriors healing themselves well, understandably, but then this does seem a bit hamfisted. --Ckal Ktak 17:14, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If a warrior needs 2 skills to heal himself to stay alive then the monk is not doing his job. The question as to why it is in Strength still goes unanswered.

You put this in Strength but it only gains 3.33 more health healed from a point in Strength and it gains FIVE from Tactics. Why haven't these two values been switched yet? And why hasen't the Diabling been lowered? Done25 22:24, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * There's already a long discussion about this skill in the Warrior's section. (Where you should have put this to begin with.) --Reklaw 23:15, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I already did. And if I remember you put it there about 2 MONTHS ago. Done25 23:21, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Still needs to drop the signet disable. I don't mind speccing into Tactis (even if it is only for Soldier's Strike/Watch Yourself), the problem is it turns off Res sig for 12 seconds. Maybe let it turn off Warrior non-attack skills instead of signets. The heal could be reduced if it is all strength driven.--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 19:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC)


 * outclassed by Enraging charge / To the Limit in many respects. It is elite and causes your skills to recharge, and has 15 recharge on its own. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 22:51, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * "disabled and recharging adrenal skills will not charge adrenaline". --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 23:29, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, this skill saw some play recently. Super Nova Japan was running it. I don't know how many matches they used it for, but I have to admit, it was one epic split Warrior imo. Think he's done when he Final Thrusts you? He's only getting started! Also, permarush. It's probably great for stand pressure because you can spam sword combos like nobody's business, but it truely shines on splits/ganking. After seeing it, I don't think this skill needs a buff. --TimeToGetIntense 13:34, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd use it if it was on a 10sec recharge. P A R A S I T I C 02:59, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Criminally underpowered vs "For Great Justice's" unconditional double adrenaline half the time. A potentially interesting skill since it requires good timing to get any benefit out of it, but hamstrung by the energy cost (warriors have better things to spend e on), high recharge, and low payoff. Suggestion: 8A, If target foe is below 50% health you gain 1...4 strikes of adrenaline. On an axe warrior this is roughly as good as FGJ...better if you manage to nail it more than half the time, worse if you don't (remember that an adrenal shout drains 1 adren from all your other skills). Seems fair to me. --Symbol 20:42, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I still wouldn't use it. Good warriors don't just blindly spam adrenaline attacks - they use them in chains on foes that are already below or near 50% health.  The only real purpose for a skill like this is for skills that drain adrenaline, and even then there are better options.  Adrenaline gain skills aren't entirely useful in PvP most of the time, since the only time you'll be spamming adrenaline skills is on a pressure build like a sword warrior.  And who uses those in PvP?
 * Make this skill interrupt your target's action, drain their adrenaline plus give you an adrenaline boost, and then we'll talk. I still probably wouldn't use it.  --Reklaw 01:10, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Since you're declaring to your target that they will die, it would be within the flavor of this skill to do something offensive, perhaps a KD. A 15 second recharge KD that only works on foes below 50% seems fair to me. It would see non-Warrior use too, which would be interesting. --TimeToGetIntense 01:53, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * While screaming at someone so hard that they fall down is pretty pwn, there are plenty of KD skills already. If we're going to rework the skill entirely, how about 5e 12r, "If target foe is below 50% health, all their skills are disabled for 1...3 seconds."  --Symbol 02:13, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * That seems cool. It wouldn't be as good for Warrior secondary but you could do adrenaline denial to other Warriors. I think it should scale up to 4 seconds. A KD is awesome at 3 seconds because it's a much stronger effect, considering it also stops movement and attacking. --TimeToGetIntense 02:26, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Change it into a stance and lower the recharge to 30 seconds. My reasoning is thus: If you just lower the recharge it will be too usefull for spikes but if you change it into a stance it diminishes your spike capabilities by preventing you from using a IAS. A good use for this skill would be to stop annoying monks who like to spam Guardian and Aegis chaining. As anyone who has played PvP should know a good monk can keep himself alive vs 2 meleers for just about forever with just Guardian and RoF. Done25 03:04, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's a start, but I'd still rather take Frenzy because it makes spikes faster (and thus harder to heal), ups your pressure, and charges adrenaline faster. It's also easily maintainable. Warrior's Cunning would only fit two of the four. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 11:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * But Frenzy does not allow you to ignore blocks. And THAT is what this skill is all about. Done25 12:16, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If you're unblockable you still won't kill stuff on a warrior without frenzy. Being able to spike quickly is good, and you have midline characters for blockway. Obviously this isn't applicable for RA, but then you just target switch since they won't have wards, SoD and aegis chains. Lord of all tyria 12:49, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * But if you are unblockable, you can interrupt Aegis and at the same time apply pressure for ~10 seconds. I like the idea of Done25. Doesn't create horrible unblockable spikes, but gives warriors a tool against aegis chains. --Xeeron 14:20, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * IASs are essential in the modern meta. Being unblockable for infinite seconds isn't going to change that.  It doesn't need to be a stance.  What it needs is some sort of condition to ensure the recharge time can be lowered safely.  Perhaps, "For 5...10...11 seconds, opponents under the effects of an enchantment cannot block your attacks.  If any of your attacks are blocked, those foes are knocked down and Warrior's Cunning ends." 10 E, 30 R, 0 CT  --Reklaw 20:47, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Eeeeehhhhh....I don't really like your train of thought. This skill is for spiking past blocks. But that ability is so powerefull that this skill has a massive recharge. We are trying to find ways to make this so that it loweres the power while keeping the intentions of this skill (anti-block) so that it has a more reasonable recharge. Yes IAS are importaint, but the ability to render blocks useless is also a needed ability and lets face it. Current warrior anti-block skills SUCK. Done25 21:47, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Given that modern GvGs revolve around denying the source of blocks rather than trying to power through them (so that you don't waste bar compression on skills that aren't needed), I'd say my reasoning is fine. Even if you have a warrior with 10 seconds of anti-block striking a backline target, he's not going to kill anyone.  He'll be outhealed, kited or blinded in the process.  While blocks do delegate the nature of the game, they don't make the game.  Making the skill usuable with a stance might overpower it, but turning WC into a stance will make it a token skill that no one will use in "real" PvP, outside of some sort of gimmick builds that target balance blockway teams.  The objective in changing WC shouldn't be to weaken the skill just to have a reasonable recharge, as you say, but to alter the skill so that it has a proper condition to allow it to be used with a stance, and with a decent recharge.
 * Even making the skill somewhat like Signet of Strength might be worth looking at. Since most teams just chain Aegis and spam Guardian (both 50% block) to prevent warriors from ever doing enough damage to allow them to be a threat, you could very well limit the skill by uses, not by a time limit.  Instead of 11 seconds of anti-block, you get 8 or 9 melee attacks (or attack skills) that ignore blocks.  If I attack 10 times and am blocked 5 times, Warrior's Cunning allows those 5 hits to pass through, and I still have 3 or 4 hits left.  You could even keep the recharge time at 60, if you set the number of attacks high enough, at around 12 at 16 att.  It would allow a charged spike to land through Aegis, and you wouldn't have to worry about wasting the skill due to kiting or being blinded.  It certainly won't last anywhere near the 60 second recharge if you're sustaining your attacks, of course.
 * Even making the skill only work 5 seconds, and setting the recharge to 20 seconds would be fine. --Reklaw 22:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if it's possible for a skill to "undo" a "successful" block, currently all anti-blocking skills either prevent the block from happening like Anthem of Guidance or induce some other effect after a successful block like Seeking Blade. -- Gordon Ecker 01:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Good warrior bars use stances, in PvP you're going to be in a stance most (all if you're using rush) of the time. This skill basically says, "hey, here's some +damage for you if you're using a bad build." Suggestion: Make the bleed duration 1...6...8 seconds if you're in a stance, double that if you aren't.   The duration and the 6A cost make it so that you can't really use the bleeding as a form of pressure, but you can still use it to open up gash. --Symbol 20:39, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah I have found use for this on a Charge warrior, it's an interesting change I do worry about it over powering other alike skills, offering a large amount of diversity to one skill allows it to ourshine other skills. Enraging charge is a good example, because it's a run buff and an adrenaline buff even if it's worse the others at that it's gonna find it's way on every bar because it offers so much more flexibility. I think this skill is ok where it is as it has a very nitch roll and you can use it in PVE where stances are not required. ~Izzy @-&#39;
 * Eh, I sorta see your enraging charge analogy, but I think enraging charge is in a good place right now. I think my suggested change would put barbarous slash in the same situation, it does decent +damage and inflicts bleeding, but it doesn't do the latter very well, in the same way that enraging charge gives you a healthy chunk of adren, but isn't a particularly impressive run speed stance. Worst case it'll just replace sever on non-cripslash bars, best case you'll see people picking sever or BS depending on what they want to do.--Symbol 21:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * People would use Barbarous because the bleed length is made highly irrelevant by how easily it is removed, so they'd go for the +damage. --TimeToGetIntense 20:36, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a good point bleed doesn't stick around that much so while Length can be a balancing factor it's not going to push the power of a skill very far, Bleed is more a combo condition for a warrior then a large amount of damage. It also applies removal pressure to the enemy team, so it's clearly not worthless even if it's duration is long, but length isn't going to do much to improve this skill. ~Izzy @-&#39;
 * Barbarous Slash and Sever are a bit too similar, only one will see use at a time. You buff barbarous enough that it gets run and sever will likely disappear. -Warskull 03:45, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well also another elite besides Cripslash needs to be good for Sword Warriors before Sever and Barbarous even matter. --TimeToGetIntense 02:18, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Silly suggestion time: Remove the conditionality of Barbarous Slice's Bleeding, and lower Sever Artery's cost to 3 Adrenaline. You could choose between easy bleeding, or go for a more spike-ish approach with BS... but meh... this is just the first idea that popped in mind. Saph 12:34, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Dragon Slash? -Warskull 03:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * People run Sever? :P But I agree, I dont think the "condition" of barbarous is being "utilized" enough to distinguish it from sever. Instead of ADDING OPTIONS, its just a crappy condition that HAS to be fullfilled. Same goes for the dervish elite (bleed/DW one). Its not really making use of the CONDITION on the skill, its just something that HAS to be fullfilled. To me, the beauty of CONDITION skills is the ability to get more out of a skill bar (by having a conditional skill that can serve dual purposes), at the cost of sheer damage etc. So, basically what I would suggest is to "complete" the sword line giving three legitimate builds: the cripslash strong split war, stand DPS dragon slash (which would need some buffs to sever and possibly Dslash), and then the barbarous flexibility war. Id make barbarous elite and (if possible), "while target moves at increased speed, this skill cripples for 5..10, otherwise it inflicts a deep wound and does +1..17 damage." If you cant program the "speed boost" mod, then the stance mod works, and wars would just need to hit frenzy after barbarous slice triggers, and you might give it more of a +damage to compensate. The goal here is to create 3 legitimate builds. A utility bar, a DPS bar, and then a middle of the road bar. It'd probably be run with probably dash, sig malice, and final thrust. Then I'd put some nice +dmg on Sever since NO ONE uses it anymore - put thats for another topic. Oni Firestarter 19:19, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * DSlash isn't really good vs good players though. It's not like it lacks power. It gets owned by well placed blinds or blocks because if you wiff DSlash you lose a lot of potential damage. The bar lacks so much utility that in the end it's just not worth it. And why should Barbarous become an unconditional DW Elite? That would be too similar to Eviscerate. --TimeToGetIntense 00:59, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The biggest perk to barbarous slice is that whenever you use it you can shout it loudly and it sounds really cool.Curlytop2112 02:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * sword needs deepwound, not more bleeding. It should probably be deepwound instead of bleeding when not in a stance (since bleeding is applied by cripslash/sever artery) and either a bumped up cost to 9-10 adrenaline (to make it in line with Gash) or reduction of the +damage by half. Or even better, deepwound on foes with <50% HP for ~3-9 seconds (50% shorter than Gash) are remove the not in a stance stuff. I thought about suggesting to make it deepwound if target is crippled, but then everyone and their brother will run cripslash even more so than they do already and it won't make Hamstring chains viable since it is on 15 cooldown. It's debatable, but I think Gash is really inferior to Dismember and Seeking Blade inferior to Swift Chop. Deep Wound is the specialty of the warrior, 3 degen from bleeding isn't exactly what you want to use a warrior for since Barbed spear is cheaper and spear does more DPS. As for intoroducing a second deepwound in the sword line, Axe has multiple ones (that are way more reliable) and so does hammer (pulverizing/crushing). Even scythes (reaper's sweep, wounding strike, wearying strike, pious assault), spears (merciless spear, vicious attack, slayer's spear), and daggers (Golden fang strike/twisting fangs/impale) have deepwound. If sword doesn't have a better deepwound than Gash, you'll see cripslash stapled to just about every sword warrior's bar (except those with Sever artery) with Gash. Seriously now, spears do more DPS and can cripple (maiming spear) without using their elite provided they hit with Barbed Spear. In terms of lore/flavor, Barbarous sounds more like something that would cause deepwound since it means savage/Cruel and cruel = deepwound modifier.--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 17:03, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No. Sword should always do Bleeding. It needs more skills that combo off Bleeding like Gash. I know Bleeding is weak but your suggestion totally destroys the whole theme that GW has for Sword Warriors. Changes should be made to make them stronger without destroying that theme. --TimeToGetIntense 23:05, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Nah, you got it reversed. Sword needs more skills that causes bleeding that don't suck.  Gash is appropriately costed, it is a DW with a healthy amount of +damage after all.  It's sever artery that's the weak link on a sword warrior's bar.  That's why cripslash is so popular.  --Symbol 03:37, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I honestly know of very few builds that use this elite. I have heard that it is a bit underpowered for an elite, largely overshadowed by non elite AoE attacks. I guess I'm wondering if there will be any buffs to it in the future. Perhaps striking more than twice, like 3 or 4 times; or adding a condition to the effects. Just a thought. Counciler 20:42, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Underpowered Skills. But yeah, it could be more interesting. Attacking the number of enemies around you would be cool. One adjacent enemy = one attack. 4 adjacent enemies = 4 attacks to all of them. Granted, that would be slightly overpowered. Maybe an additional attack for every 2? 1->1, 2->2, 3->2, 4->3. If that makes any sense. Would give it more potential, but adds a slight risk of only attacking once. --Deathwing 21:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a good idea, as you would hardly see more then two people near each other in pvp its true power would show mostly on pve where if theres 10 foes around you, you would hit 10 times on all of them =D = 100 strikes =D Biz 07:04, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Hundred Blades is used quite often with conjures. The fact that its an energy attack that swings twice makes it a great adrenaline builder, without even taking the 'all foes adjacent to target' into consideration. It isn't underpowered. 69.137.78.92 22:09, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I enjoy using it just for that... earning adrenaline with an energy-powered skill. Also, use it with a Vampiric weapon and anything else that triggers "on hit", and it's pretty great. If it were to get a buff, I'd say make it something small; maybe gain an extra strike of adrenaline for each additional foe you hit, or even make it like Dual/Triple Shot; does 25% less damage, but hits everyone 3 or 4 times. But that might be pushing it. -- Jioruji Derako.> 02:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not very good. I don't know how it could be made good because it doesn't have a special utility and it doesn't compress abilities on your bar like Cripslash does. Also, Sword isn't that strong as a raw damage dealer in the first place. Sword is strong at utility, but Hundred Blades is a raw damage skill. I thought about posting it myself, but I can't imagine it ever being balanced to be viable in serious play. --TimeToGetIntense 04:26, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Think of it like Cyclone Axe for a sword... Cyclone Axe has it's uses, and so does Hundred Blades. Neither of them is particularly useful in PvP, but they have uses in PvE, where foes are happy to cluster up a bit. What Hundred Blades has against it is, it's almost on par with Cyclone Axe (more hits, but smaller range), but it's Elite, while Cyclone Axe isn't. Maybe Hundred Blades simply needs to be changed to attack foes adjacent to you, rather then adjacent to your target... -- Jioruji Derako.> 04:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure, but that's PvE. This skill is great in PvE. --TimeToGetIntense 05:05, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * But your missing the point that if you were to use it for your conjure, or vamp weapons.... whirlwind attack can do the same (maybe even more) amount of hits. As can Cyclone Axe. And Whirling Axe (even THAT has a damage additive). But all of them do a damage additive, whereas Hundred Blades, an ELITE.... doesn't. As a skill, its so-so; but Elites are supposed to be better than so-so. It could be replaced with something much better instead. Counciler 07:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Don't think i was always elite, might be wrong tho, cyclone outshines 100blades by far, halved recharge makes up for 1 hit per foe and hitting everything around you is far more useful then that around your target, added damage even +1X of Cyclone out damages 100blades too. Making it unblockable like elite version of sun and moon Or removing elite status with no change Or adding damage would be some possible alternatives. Biz 09:48, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I've asked Izzy in the irc (back when he was allowed to visit it) to change it so it could also inflict Bleeding if it'd hit only one foe ("If this attack hits only 1 foe, that foe suffers from Bleeding for xx seconds"), so it'd be another option for a combo with Gash. Izzy just laughed at my suggestion, but it's still what I want to see happening with this skill. Right now, there's only 2 skills that can be regarded as viable for Deep Wounds when wielding swords: Crippling Slash and Sever Artery. Crippling Slash easily outclasses Hundred Blades, mainly because it had the Bleeding added. Maybe the same could happen with Hundred Blades, since it'd appear a good trade off. Either you go for Cripslash and cripple the foe, or you pick Hundred Blades, which will make you attack twice but won't cripple. Saph 10:00, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

History: This skill wasn't originally elite, it was changed when the IW mesmers found it. --Pork soldier 15:04, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hundred Blades: Strike twice at all targets adjacent to your target, causing +13 DMG with each hit. If you strike only one target, that foe is struck for +41 DMG. This attack is unblockable.Counciler 17:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * gosh, i wanna see the guy using this and Sun&Moon with his conjure, that seems to strong to me.Unblockable 13+13+41+41+15*4+4*normal dmgs let's say 40=328dmg. Astonishing xD, even if you wanted to say that +41dmg will apply instead of +13 in the case you hit only one target it would deal 302dmg (all against 60AL), and remember they are unblockable.If you meant that you'll swing twice ONLY to foes adjacent to your target that could lower it to 261dmg which seems more reasonable but still tough because unblockable and because of what i'll mention about body blow in few lines. Don't say this huge dmg are here because you can't apply DW easily because you're not alone in PvP. Besides don't forget Body Blow, a strength related DW-applying skill if a foe is suffering from cracked armor, which won't be a difficult condition to meet if there is a E or Rt un your team. Hundred Blades as it currently is, +13 dmg to target foe and all adjacent foes is enough imo or making it unblockable w/o bonus but with an higher recharge (that would hurt PvE however).  Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 17:16, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hundred Blades: Strike twice at target foe and all adjacent foes, causing +13 DMG with each hit. If you strike only one target, that foe is struck twice for +21 DMG. The second strike cannot be blocked.
 * It strikes each for for +13 damage, causing only +26 DMG per foe. The lone foe gets hit for +42 damage total. If the foe has something like Whirling defense or Bonetti's defense or Aegis on, it gets hit only once instead of twice. The SECOND attack hits, not the first. So buffs that trigger only on the first attack of a multi hit skill (CycloneAxe, Barrage, Scythe Hits) and get turned off by a block, will get turned off before the hit. It seems balanced to me with this revision. Counciler 02:05, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I would give it a try. A Kind of double cyclone axe effect to adjacent foes which is correct according to the double recharge imo. Unblockable second strike, this is elite so correct. If one foe is hit, i understood that he would take +21dmg per hit, so +42 in the end, with only the second strike which is unblockable. It's a kind of Sun&Moon+Executioner's strike effect. This is an elite so it should be better than Sun&Moon even though it uses energy (can easily be handle with a zealous sword) and a recharge of 8s makes it more "spammable" than 8adre. The fact that only the second strike is unblockable seems a bit odd. I figured out that the usual Sever Artery/Crp'slash+ Gash + Sun&Moon combo does about 230dmg +DW with Conjure and this HunB+Sun&Moon with Conjure should do +42dmg without DW. You could take Hamstring to cripple (which will maybe become more interesting as it seems lots of ppl would like it to be buffed), that's nice. I'm a bit afraid because it is energy based, has a low recharge, and because it could be used with Body Blow for a somehow really (too ?) powerfull spike (+112 dmgs than the usual Crip's Slash combo) but i really like it that way besides it gives this skill a nice flexibility both in PvE and PvP. I don't know if Izzy is going to make changes to skills for one week end and then collect feedbacks, if he does i think this skill should be one of those.  Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 10:24, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

It is a well accepted fact that hundred Blades sucks. It is essentially an energy version of sun and moon slash, except sun and moon can't be blocked and hundred blades has an AoE that no one cares about. First off, remove the AoE. Then balance the skill properly for an attack that doesn't have an AoE. This means the recharge needs to go down and it needs a secondary effect. For example additional damage, both hits are always crits, cannot be blocked, ect. When finished stop and ask yourself "Is this skill Elite Worthy?" -Warskull 22:23, 5 August 2007 (UTC)


 * That would kill it's adrenaline gain usage in PvE. What about giving it a bonus, but only against the primary target? Or making the recharge time scale with the number of targets or the number of times it hits? -- Gordon Ecker 02:26, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Add a Barrage effect, let it do + 5...13 dammage or something, it would make a good adrenaline charge skill, it will do some dammage when u are where a warrior should be. (Right now its inferior to cyclone axe)84.192.118.21 08:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Drop AoE, and give it DW for a real lulz experience. Perhaps even 4 add, as it will be so good. Readem   Promote My Ban Here  05:54, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You attack target foe 100 times, each attack does . That would win...--Deathwing 05:59, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, maybe not 100 attacks, but why not make it something like "Swing three times at target foe and adjacent foes. Each swing does 25% less damage." Combined with Conjures, it could be pretty formidable. - Vermain 22:24, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think that multiple hits should be the focus of this skill if it is made viable. Compare it to Protector's Strike. Protector's Strike is essentially the same thing as Hundred Blades when you're attacking one foe, but it has 5 seconds less recharge and bonus damage vs moving targets. I'd say this is a case where a non-elite is vastly superior to an elite. I don't think the solution is to make Hundred Blades stronger than Prot Strike, though... That would make it overpowered. Hundred Blades needs some utility, it's as simple as that. --TimeToGetIntense 23:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Reduce recharge time plz. 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As stated by others above, the purpose of this skill is damage and adrenaline gain. Not every sword elite should have bleeding attached to it.  So in keeping with this I think a half-second activation is the right way to improve this skill.  1/2 activation, 6 recharge should be very strong. 4 October 2007
 * I like how this one sounds. Something like "Recharge 60 seconds, energy 10, activation time 0. You hit target and all adjacent targets for 1..1..2 damage 100 times total (100 times 1 target, 50 times 2 targets, 33 times 3, and so on). This skill causes exhaustation".  It will not happend, but would make honor to his name.--Fighterdoken 22:45, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

or maybe non elite it and make it this "this attack hits all ajacent foes this hits twice if you are not enchanted" no mad combos with conjure/IW yet still other options like weapon spells. Dstroyer 666 08:12, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "Attack target foe and all foes adjacent to your target. This skill cannot be blocked and always results in a critical hit.  For each foe you hit, you gain an additional 1...2 strikes of adrenaline."  Almost the same thing, except damage doesn't come in two packets (you can't carry two conjures), and you gain more adrenaline.  That allows you to use it on a solitary target (in PvP) but still gain an obvious benefit.  This essentially becomes an energy-based Dragon Slash that deals AoE, but due to the recharge, cannot be spammed using skills like Knee Cutter and doesn't give as much of an energy gain in most PvP situations. --Reklaw 19:28, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I have an idea; "Attack target and all adjacent foes twice and gain 1...4...6 energy for each hit." This would give it a definite purpose that is pretty unique among Warrior skills. Energy gain. Warriors have problems using too many energy skills normally, but with this the Warrior's list of viable energy skills would expand. You'd have to use Sword without Cripslash, which, let's face it, is gimp, but you might be able to do some pretty cool things. --TimeToGetIntense 01:46, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Make it a Eilte Skill.5/0/15  For seconds you strike twice in melee when wielding a sword. naturally this buff you only occur if you were auto-attacking, to make it balanced. [[Image:User BaineTheBotter Icon notify before deletion.jpg|19px|||My Talk]] BaineTheBotter  08:47, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * 10 seconds of double damage? Lol! I think that would be more balanced at 4 or 5 seconds or as a 50% IAS stance with a 10 second duration/15 cooldown. Your version + Frenzy = broken to the max though. --TimeToGetIntense 14:21, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * (reset)Rawr Hundred Blades! Maybe add a "you may not attack faster while using this skill" [[Image:User BaineTheBotter Icon notify before deletion.jpg|19px|||My Talk]] BaineTheBotter  14:00, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, it'll still deal too much damage, especially with conjure.I'd suggest one more thing though, make another sword elite.Swords have less elites compared to Axes and Hammers. Imbal!!!! [[Image:User BaineTheBotter Icon notify before deletion.jpg|19px|||My Talk]] BaineTheBotter  14:10, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Wasn't the idea behind swinging with one hundred blades that you hit absolutely anything nearby? It was a crappy idea to begin with, but it has its uses.  The only real thing keeping anyone from swinging 100 times (and dealing 1 damage each time) are things like conjures, weapons, preps and vamp mods.  (Mainly vamp since that comes in a separate packet.)  That, and you can't scale down 100 damage for sub-16 atts.  Nor would you really want a skill that deals that much damage in one hit.  Really, this has gotta be a utility skill for adrenaline, or it has to be unblockable to go with the whole "there's a hundred blades coming at me, holy crap" thing.
 * Elite Sword Attack. Swing at target foe and foes adjacent to your target. You gain strikes of adrenaline and an additional strike of adrenaline for each foe hit in this manner.  This attack cannot miss or be blocked.
 * An elite sword attack that builds adrenaline and has natural AoE, plus it can't be blocked and always works through blind.
 * Elite Sword Attack. Swing twice at target foe and foes adjacent to your target. If any foes block this attack, they begin Bleeding for seconds.  If any of your attacks miss, all adjacent foes are Crippled for  seconds.
 * An elite that operates the same as before, but causes bleeding to blockers, and if you're blind, cripples your targets. It would be sort of an energy-based Crippling Slash, only the effects would be secondary, and hence, unreliable.
 * There's a huge amount of things you could do with this elite. It's more a matter of how lazy the balancers are in implementing changes.  I'm sure it would take several months to test and see if having Hundred Blades cause bleeding would be imbalanced.  :p  --Reklaw 16:51, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * How about my energy gain idea? Same thing as it is now, but you gain 1...4...6 energy per hit. Then you can go Gale Warrior without the awesome Axe skills and 3 mediocre/bad attacks (Sever, Gash, HBlades)... A strong utility Warrior with less damage. I think the adrenaline gain idea is too redundant, I mean, right now you gain an extra strike of adrenaline per 8~9 seconds if you run this skill and if you get some people with the AoE, more strikes. It's not a bad adrenaline builder but that's not enough for this skill to be good. It needs another function. I don't think the anti-block/blind makes it good enough either because the effect of hitting with HBlades and still not hitting any other attacks after it is not very good. --TimeToGetIntense 00:42, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Make this one unblockable and give it a 5 second recharge, than it is ok... A. von Rin 02:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * i say to make it 5 energy and a 3 second recharge so it makes it like a warrior barrage and add like +5...13...15 damage but you only swing once at all foes and if it gets blocked target foe gets bleeding. 24.238.94.19 12:26, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Another neglected elite. Clearly you're supposed to take plague touch to make use of the self daze, but no one does that because plague touch still sucks compared to mending touch. There's a reason why cripslash is the only sword elite that sees serious play, and that's bar compression. Make this cause bleeding and it will be an interesting option for warriors who want a pressure oriented build with room for utility. I don't mind that sword has no unconditional deep wound, but the requirement to stick sever (an otherwise bad skill) on your bar really constrains the builds you can make work. --Symbol 22:14, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This is sort of an alternative to the W/N Headbutt build. Headbutt clocks in at 15 Energy, which can present a problem on some builds.  Quivering also has a relatively low adrenaline req.  I see it as sort of a combination of Cleave and Headbutt.  The problem is, it doesn't do either of its jobs very well outside of PvE.  Cleave is typically a PvE elite, as spikes are often wasted, and the added spammability of a pressure elite can come in handy when moving from one target to the next.  Headbutt is typically a PvP elite.  Although it has a fairly high degree of unblockable, blind-ignoring damage, the real advantage is in the 20+ second daze that you can immediately transfer to a backline target.  (Although for this kind of spike you'll need at least 20 energy before you even think about using Headbutt.)  Quivering Blade suffers in that it lacks the utility to be an efficient PvP elite.  Being blocked is a relatively safe bet most of the time in PvP, yet the daze duration is simply too short to make effective use of a transfer.  The adrenaline req can also make it difficult to make use of this benefit, as you need to land hits to use the skill, just to have its damage be negated, the skill disabled and have yourself dazed.  All that said, what makes this elite see so much use is the fact that Swordsmanship simply doesn't have many alternatives.  Axe Mastery will always be the superior attribute, aside from a few utility builds.  At the end of the day, Crippling Slash is basically the only viable PvP Sword elite.  The rest are mostly just either utility elites or PvE pressure elites.  This elite doesn't really need a buff, so much as it just innately sucks in anything but PvE mob areas.  The daze duration is a laugh, since it's not something you'll want to make a build around to accessorize your offense, and it isn't really punishing for a warrior. --Reklaw 22:45, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Cripslash sees use because it provides bar compression. You get a strong snare (6A covered cripple) and bleeding in one skill, which allows you to drop sever and put some utility on your bar, just like an axe guy.  If Quivering Blade caused bleeding you could see the same thing.  Something like Quivering - Gash - Sun and Moon - Bull's Strike would be a good alternative to Conjure Cripslash, or Quivering - Gash - Final Thrust - Bull's Strike would start looking interesting compared to an eviscerate guy (big damage spike + lots of damage pressure from quivering spam).  The dazed thing is pretty much unworkable, I agree.  If the target has aegis, ward melee, SoD,etc on him then you're not going to be able to follow up on the daze with any reliability so it's pretty much worthless.  Also, this isn't even a good PvE elite because dragon slash owns it completely. --Symbol 18:40, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill might also see some use if there was a silencing sword hilt. At the moment the daze will take at least 1/4 of it's duration on you, waiting to be plague touched.  If they intended for the daze to ever be used with plague touch it needs a longer duration or the ability to be extended via a Silencing Hilt.204.52.179.199 18:38, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Plague touch needs to be worth taking before that happens. Right now even transferring 2 conditions per pop makes it a dubious proposition vs mending touch, and a bad one when you consider that you have to invest 8 in curses.  --Symbol 21:04, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the Daze should be changed to be inflicted on your target rather than yourself. Plague Touch will never be viable unless Mending Touch sees a serious nerf, but Mending Touch isn't terribly good for a Warrior anyway. Air Eles are not effective on split because of Rangers who have Mending Touch, and a Warrior won't beat a Ranger 1v1 with or without Mending Touch. The skill inflicting Daze on yourself is a neat novelty and makes you think about synergy, but honestly, it's not functionally effective. If it dazed the target when they blocked, it could be pretty strong. --TimeToGetIntense 19:39, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Daze both. --Ckal Ktak 21:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * So you daze one Monk, then run over and Plague Touch the other? I like the idea. It wouldn't be easy to pull off, but you would be able to daze both Monks at once using one character. When you do pull it off, tons of pressure. That's the idea, right? --TimeToGetIntense 13:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

(rest indent) In PvE cripple on one target isn't as good as pure armor ignoring DPS, so I can see bringing quivering Blade (with plague touch if need be). As long as you bring anti-block skills as one of the other skills on your bar (e.g. Griffon's sweep) it isn't that bad since quivering blade is only disabled 4 seconds if you are blocked. It is basically executioner's/galrath/silverwing on 4 adrenaline. In PVP you have way more blocking from Aegis/Guardian/Natural Stride/etc. and kiting so that means this isn't as good and Cripslash is better as a result. I wouldn't mind seeing this get a buff though. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 21:39, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I've got a great idea for this skill: ''6 adrenaline, Axe Attack. Lose all adrenaline. If this attack hits, you inflict a Deep Wound for 5...20 seconds. If Swift Chop is blocked, your target suffers a Deep Wound for 5...20 seconds and takes an additional 7...41...50 damage.'' --TimeToGetIntense 10:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Would outdo Dismember.
 * Not with the "Lose all adrenaline" clause that I added. --TimeToGetIntense 04:44, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm..not sure about the damage though, tone that down a bit since it's a non elite. But looks good, I missed out the adrenaline bit.
 * I found out the damage comes after the DW if it is blocked, so you're probably right, it should be low. I messed with it a bit, and it's really not that terrible, but it sucks as an energy attack. I think the best way to change this skill would still be my above suggestion (with less conditional damage) but I think this skill would also be viable with just a slight numbers buff and changed to 6~7 adrenaline. Since the damage comes after the DW this skill can often finish off targets who are pressured down and just started blocking via prots or stances, so I think it's the most viable of any similar skills (Griffon's Sweep, Seeking Blade, etc...) because it actually has a pretty strong on-blocked effect for pressure. But again, totally not worth spending energy on considering you should be using energy for Bull's Strike and Shock on an Axe Warrior. --TimeToGetIntense 13:52, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * But you chop them swiftly! they aren't supposed to block it! Maybe give it a 3/4 activation to make it look "swift". [[Image:User BaineTheBotter Icon notify before deletion.jpg|19px|||My Talk]] BaineTheBotter  14:07, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * That would also make it very good. 3/4 is basically the same as 1/2 when it comes to attack skills. Arguing that they are any different would just be splitting hairs. I think it would be worth using at 5 energy, 3/4 or 1/2 activation, 4 recharge and no other changes. Like I said, the on blocked effect is actually decent so either more damage or faster activation would make it much more viable as a follow-up attack. Making it adrenaline would be necessary if the activation wasn't lowered, imo. It seems to me that 1/2 or 3/4 second attacks are well worth 5 energy as long as they have some other effect too. I don't know why that is, but that's what experience tells me. --TimeToGetIntense 00:46, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * So basically you want to bring back critical chop, except with less than half the recharge and a stronger secondary effect? While I do think that skill got smacked way too hard, I don't think axe needs any more instagib skills right now.  Even a 1s activation agonizing is plenty strong as it stands, and this would be way stronger.  --Symbol 01:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Compared to Prot Strike which as a 3 second recharge and conditionally huge bonus damage, +19 damage at 14 Axe Mastery for a 4 second recharge version seems fine to me. I still would prefer my original idea, it makes Swift Chop stand on it's own as a solid DW skill, but doesn't make Dismember obsolete. Or just make it Adrenaline with a little more damage. So I guess I'm saying I like all 3 ideas. --TimeToGetIntense 02:17, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I like the idea of faster activation time. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 02:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Then again, Izzy decided 1/2 activation Axe attacks are too strong, so I think it would be pointless to try and endorse that idea. =\ --TimeToGetIntense 08:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Izzy was wrong. There was nothing wrong with 1/2s Critical and Agonizing Chop; those changes just supported the huge block webs we see now (along with other, more immediate problems at the time). Ensign explained it pretty well just after that update; I can't be bothered finding the post right now, though (2 am does that). -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 09:53, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

needs some bonus damage, even something as small as +1...8...10. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 18:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it needs to inflict Cracked Armor or do something else. Axe Mastery has plenty of damage skills already. --TimeToGetIntense 12:04, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Keen Chop is an okay skill. It deals as much damage as Penetrating Chop in some cases, since you're getting that max damage*square root of 2 formula.  It's reliable and consistent at 3 adrenaline.  Most other attack skills have Keen Chop beat, but Keen Chop beats those out with reliability.  I used to think it was a horrible skill, and refused to use it until I took the time to test the damage ranges.  --Reklaw 20:59, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree with Reklaw, being 100% critical it has -20 armor effect on target, plus always hits 28 in base damage. Its not underpowered, just not powerful enough to be a clear winner. Biz 08:59, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't forget you crit ~20% of the time naturally, plus autocrits on fleeing foes. The only advantage you gain by using this skill is the Strength armor penetration. The problem here is that armor penetration, ironically, is only effective against low armor targets. You do lower a high armor target's armor by more than a low armor target, but the amount of damage you gain on the low armor target is much higher due to the way armor works. In the end, this is a damage skill that is 100% armor respecting. In a way, Keen Chop is unreliable because it's effectiveness depends on the target's armor. Traditional attack skills give you a consistant bonus plus the potential to also critical and apply your Strength bonus to that critical. That may not be consistant, but it's just gravy anyway. --TimeToGetIntense 11:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * One word, unblockable. Prokiller88 22:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm really of the opinion that this skill doesn't need a buff, and that at 3 adrenaline, it works as a skill. Whether it's more effective as far as bar compression goes is debatable.  However, I can see how people would want it buffed, since it's so borderline on being a good skill.  A skill like this might see more use if it was in the hammer or sword lines, since axe has such a high innate crit rate to begin with.  Keen Chop just essentially makes it a sure thing.  You could technically use Keen Chop on a character with no att investment, but who cares, honestly?  Unblockable might be a bit much.  I'd settle for something a bit peculiar, like crippling your target for 1...3 seconds.  Just a little boost.  --Reklaw 00:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Unless I'm missing something, all weapons have the same crit rate. Axes benefit the most from criticals because they have good attack speed and pretty high crits. If an Axe hits all crits, it deals more DPS than a Hammer hitting all crits due to attack speed. Anyway, effectiveness aside, I think this skill should be changed to a utility skill because we have plenty of damage skills already. --TimeToGetIntense 06:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * This skill is definitely underpowered. The low adrenaline cost is pointless when everyone is running eviscerate (given the choice between spamming keen chop more often or eviscerate, I know which one I'd choose...) and the damage isn't impressive.  It needs _something_, +damage, faster activation, unblockable, inflicting conditions, adrenaline gain, etc.  It's just blah right now.  --Symbol 18:51, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, for it to be viable it needs something. Axe Mastery does not need more viable pure damage attacks, though. That's more important than just making more skills viable. --TimeToGetIntense 15:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

This skill need some +damage or not-blockable or something. - HeWhoIsPale 19:03, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It offers nothing worth an elite spot. The fact that it needs the opponent to be under an enchantment is a huge slap in the face. I don't think +damage or unblockable is enough, this skill needs to be reworked from the ground up. Right now, it's like a really niche skill, except it requires an elite slot. --Tensei 02:44, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The good thing is that it's somewhat usable in the current Aegis metagame. The bad thing is that Crushing Blow needs to hit. 76.64.59.41 05:57, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What about "If this attack hits or is blocked by a foe who is under the effects of an Enchantment, that foe is knocked down."? -- Gordon Ecker 06:15, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * For an elite that has to match up to a metagame of Backbreaker, Earth Shaker and Devastating Hammer, this should be unblockable completely, and KD foes that are enchanted. It could also go the Magehunter Strike route and deal extra damage to enchanted foes, or have some sort of "Armor Penetration" damage to enchanted targets. That would attract more usage to this skill. 76.64.59.41 06:19, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You fail to take into account that this is a hammer elite. Hammer elite slots are used for reliable knockdown and until you get an unconditional KD out of this it is never going to be run.  It should be "target foe is knocked down, if that foe is under the effects of an enchantment this attack cannot be blocked."  Then maybe notch it up to 6 adren.  -Warskull 03:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * How about raising it to 7 adren, and be 'Target foe is knocked down. If target foe is under the effect of an enchantment, that knockdown lasts 4 seconds'. Then it would be a sort of short recharge Backbreaker, but only on enchanted targets. Or would that be too powerful even at 7 adren? Might well be, maybe 8 adren... i guess unblockable is safer hehe. But i fully agree that this MUST be a reliable knockdown or it'll never see play. Just add any bonus if the target is enchanted (unblockable, +damage, longer kd, condition, etc.) and adjust adrenal in function of the strength of the bonus. Patccmoi 13:59, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "Target foe is knocked down and if that foe is enchanted, that foe is dazed for 1...4...5 seconds." 8 or 10 adren cost. --Deathwing 17:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't like the idea of another high adren cost KD. My suggestion: "If target foe is enchanted, he is knocked down." 4 adren, and there is no need to actually hit the target! Would make it kind of unique. Maybe even give it a 1sec activation, but that might be too much. --Ineluki 22:04, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "If target foe also has a crappy elite, that foe gets laughed at for 5 seconds" 5/0/10 --Deathwing 23:16, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Problem: inherently spammy skill as designed, on a character without the energy to spam it. Why not make this skill return energy (3 or 4 at reasonable spec) if the target is enchanted? Then you actually can spam it if you're using it against enchanted targets.

(reset indent) 1)   5 adren, If Magehunter's Smash hits an enchanted foe, that foe is knocked down and this attack cannot be blocked.  2)  4/.50, If this attack hits a foe that is casting a spell, you deal +6..21 damage and they are knocked down. Magehunter's Smash cannot be blocked by enchanted foes. 2 might be a little overpowered because with new, uber FGJ you can use it every other hit. Pretty ridiculous shutdown on a monk, especially if you've got some energy to spare for Protector's Strike to speed up your attack between Smashes. | GD Defender /  contribs 17:36, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Warskull's suggestion is the most sensible so far, except I would take it to 7 adren, as the unblockable clause is still pretty strong. --Tensei 14:44, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 1/2 second skill activation? Like magehunter strike? Or maybe unblockable with a 1 second activation? --Zarfol 02:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I like the 6-7a, unconditional KD, but unblockable if target is enchanted. You've got Devastating at 7 for Weakness combos, Earth Shaker at 8 for AoE, and Backbreaker at 10 for the 4 s KD.  One suggestion I've been mulling over is 4-5a, knocks if target isn't attacking (i.e., the opposite of Counter Blow) - you can pull Bull's off your bar if you really need the slot, this way. ~Seef II &lt;☎|→&gt; 01:08, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Warskull. For this to be viable AND not be an unconditional knockdown (if that is possible) it pretty much has to be at least unblockable... at the very least. How about: "If it hits, Magehunter Smash does +20 dmg, if it is blocked, target is Knocked down and loses one enchantment." love, Aran 05:31, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Losing an enchantment is not something warriors do. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 17:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Let's get some use out of hammers here: ''If target foe is not attacking, you cause knock down if it hits. This attack cannot be blocked by enchanted foes.''--65.95.71.161 03:08, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Or do the Izzy fasion and make it 3/4 sec activation time. --Ckal Ktak 13:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Magehunter doesn't see any use for two reasons: it's unreliable, of course, in dealing no damage and having a KD that requires an opponent to be affected by a skill type he might not even be using; also, this is basically an anti-block skill, yet what will you do to a blocking opponent that's on the ground? Look at him extra hard?  You're still not going to hit him after he's eating dirt.  Furthermore, you need adrenaline to even use this skill.  How are you going to build up adrenaline on a target that's constantly blocking enough for this skill to be "worth" using?
 * Hammer warriors are KD spikers, basically. This is a pressure skill - a poorly designed pressure skill that can't fill its own requirements.  There are plenty of other KD hammer elites that can cause a KD with or without weakness, at 3 or 4 seconds or whatever else.  Here is my suggestion:
 * "This attack deals +5...17 damage and opponents under the effects of an enchantment suffer an additional +5...17 damage. If this attack is blocked, that foe is knocked down and you gain 4 strikes of adrenaline, but all of your other adrenal skills are recharged." This basically causes Magehunter's to almost recharge itself after it works, so that you only need to hit one more time to reuse the skill.  It also functions normally as an adequate damage skill equivalent to most non-elites.  It would work pretty well with Irresistible Blow as far as pressuring the crap out of block-whores. This skill is already basically Irresistible Blow with an adrenaline requirement and an undeserved elite status.  --Reklaw 03:46, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Need I really qualify myself here? An adrenal skill (Which requires hitting something) to penetrate blocking conditionally for such a weak +damage? Oh please. --Ckal Ktak 17:45, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, possibly raise the base damage
 * How about: 5 energy, 6 second recharge. If this attack hits, you deal +5...17...20 damage. If target foe is suffering from Weakness, this attack cannot be blocked and this attack recharges instantly.
 * One hit getting through blocking is not terribly valuable because your target will continue to block your other hits. With it like this, as long as your target has Weakness, you can keep hitting them at a high energy cost. --TimeToGetIntense 10:57, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This might be better:6 [[Image:Adrenaline.png]] Hammer Attack.You deal damage.This attack is unblockable and causes Weakness for  [[Image:User BaineTheBotter Icon notify before deletion.jpg|19px|||My Talk]] BaineTheBotter ''' 04:11, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Way to kick staggering blow out of the door. --08:35, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It would never be used anyway. Like I said, one single hit being unblockable is worthless. Many hits being unblockable or otherwise penetrating defenses is very strong though. One hit being unblockable doesn't accomplish anything unless it prevents further blocking or does something else really powerful. --TimeToGetIntense 08:48, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

unlike Blades of Steel and Enraged Lunge, this skill doesn't count it self for the +dmg, making it pretty weak. Making itself add to the damage would be a decent buff. P A R A S I T I C 08:53, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Adrenaline mechanics make that impossible, but it would be pretty trivial to make it +10 and +10 for each charged. And in any case, the skill description reads "for each other charged adrenal skill..." --71.229.204.25 21:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * A big problem with this skill is that there aren't that many adrenal skills to put on your bar. You can accessorize with a load of other hammer attack skills, but they end up being really disjointed as a whole build.  Your main skills you can place with this elite are things like Lion's Comfort, Rush and Flail.  It's a lot of work to make a bad build just to support a mediocre PvE elite. --Reklaw 22:27, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Not gonna disagree there. --71.229.204.25 19:32, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * have it count recharging attack skills as well and you might be on to something. --Ckal Ktak 23:22, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This is pathetic when compaired to Symbolic Strike Done25 23:40, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And they're both pathetic compared to just about any other attack in the game. --71.229.204.25 23:55, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Warriors are supposed to knock down foes. Hammer Warriors are supposed to knock down foes... more! This skill is stupid. I'd suggest to rework it to be another KD elite, but we already have an AoE one, a 4 second one and a chain one. What else could we possibly use? Besides, does any other attribute have three viable elites? Is it worth it to spend any time trying to buff other Hammer elites or should we look at lines which of one or less viable elites? --TimeToGetIntense 15:31, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * YOu make a valid point actually, I'd like to see more than cripslash and eviserate on warrior's bars. --Ckal Ktak 16:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

It's only viable in PvE, as an adrenaline gain skill. The problem is that it puts you at high risk since without a shield and 1.75 seconds (or more if under attack speed debuff) -40 armor is hard for a hammer warrior. -20 armor might be more doable, but I think it'd be best if it had some effect like Distracting blow/Distracting shot/Shattering Assault (0 damage or set damage instead of +damage). distracting blwo is unique in that it does no damage but still gains adrenaline for you. That should probably be put into play on this skill. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 03:12, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * When you compare this to Triple Chop (+10...34...40) after adding base damage and considering that it is 10 recharge, Crude Swing (+1...16...20) is actually better against 60AL targets. I think a nice balance would be bumping it down to less than cyclone axe's damage level (+4...10...12) or removing the +damage. Perhaps making it like Hundred blades (no + damage)? "Hammer attack. Swing at all adjacent foes. (5energy,5recharge)" or "Hammer attack. Attack all adjacent foes. (5 energy, 5 recharge)" Damagewise, hammer has skills like Yeti Smash for AoE but is lacking adrenaline builders (especially since it has 1.75 second swing time). Having a viable adrenaline gain also opens the way for Earthshaker to be more usable. In terms of the skillname, I think not having any +damage and only striking once is "crude" enough of a swing... Hundred Blades doesn't strike a hundred times...--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 15:14, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * IMO, if this is mostly a PvE skill, and hammers aren't very popular in PvE, then this should stay pretty strong. Yes, there's Whirlwind Attack, but more options are always better. Wouldn't call this underpowered; just unused. ~Seef II &lt;ℹ|۞&gt; 02:45, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see what's wrong with running both this and Whirlwind Attack on a PvE Earth Shaker Warrior, well, besides Hammer Warriors having lower health and armor. If you get off a lot of good Earthshakers, you mitigate a ton of damage, but the damage will hit you in bursts, so you need good Monks. Also, it's just not viable in insane high level PvE for your tank to do anything but be dedicated to pure tanking, right? So Hammer isn't even an option. This skill isn't underpowered at all, in regular PvE it's very strong. AoE skills are weak in PvP and the only viable ones are so strong that they are good even if you hit only one person with them, such as Rodgort's Invocation and Ancestor's Rage; the AoE is a side benefit. This is due to the GW PvP formats not providing enough targets, so you can't count on AoE helping you at all. Also, full party healing is very powerful in GW but that is changing now, so maybe AoE will matter more in the future. --TimeToGetIntense 11:16, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * In normal mode hammer warriors don't match the speed of other warriors in killing things since the kills are rather quick (deep wound+Disrupting chop> knockdown in that case). In hard mode hammer warriors get pommeled by double damage mobs. That's a problem I think. I personally run an Anthem of Fury Paragon with Irrestible Blow on my hammer hero as an energy attack for adrenaline gain and it still takes way longer to do the same things than with axe warriors. Combined with the fact that some mobs cannot be knocked down ...that's really bad. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 02:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

decrease to 5 adrenaline so it competes with Mighty Blow? --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 17:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * This is fine as is. Back when hammer warriors were in, any self-respecting warrior with weakness brought this. The problem is that with all the anti-KD running around, hammer warriors are pretty much worthless. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 21:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Disagree. There's no reason to bring this over Mighty Blow: if you are running an elite hammer KD as you should be, at minimum you will be running Devastating Hammer. That skill and Mighty Blow both cost 7 adrenaline, and the +dmg on Mighty Blow is unconditional. The other elite KDs don't even cause Weakness, so Fierce Blow loses there. If it wants to get used, drop to 5a so it can follow Forceful Blow in PvE, or up the +dmg somehow. ~Seef II &lt;ℹ|۞&gt; 22:12, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Currently the only reason to use this skill is if you're running a bad build that involves using both Mighty Blow and Fierce Blow. I'm thinking some sort of PvE Forceful Blow build that doesn't actually use KDs?  You could also use this skill, I guess, if you're using a Heavy Blow chain with multiple conditions and you need to know if your target is still suffering from Weakness.  If you get the +damage, it's okay to use your next skill.  Once again... I guess.  You can't really make an argument for Fierce Blow, yet bad players keep using it because they don't realize that Mighty Blow is a better skill.  IMO, make this skill give back a strike of adrenaline, cause Cracked Armor or some other equally near-useless enhancement to at least make it SEEM more useful. --Reklaw 23:31, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Cracked Armor would let you use Body Blow and get the disable out of Distracting Strike, so that would give it some use. A chain like Devestating Hammer, Fierce Blow, Body Blow, Heavy Blow, Distracting Strike might be good in that case. --TimeToGetIntense 11:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

halve the recharge to 15? You can't lineback with a skill that works every 30 seconds.--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 18:03, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this needs a change for sure. Oo o, I can blind an enemy 1/3 of the time, but it will get removed... This is just bad. 66.57.17.110 15:22, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

What's up with this? i think this really needs a buff you attack 33% faster when under Shout of Chant for 4...9...10, isn't this a bit low? 7...12...16 would be much better. There is like no reason to make a nice build with this.. if it's getting buffed the combination of SStance and "FGJ!" would be great. Tomoko 13:33, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Two things: underpowered skills go in the Underpowered Skills section, and scaling is linear. If you want a 7..12 duration from 0..12 Tactics, the correct range is . ~Seef II &lt;☎|→&gt; 19:05, 10 August 2007 (UTC) [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 20:55, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill doesn't exactly deserve to be elite either =) Biz 12:59, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yea sorry about that my bad, i just typed something about the buff no real intentions but just an example Tomoko 19:26, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem with this skill is that Frenzy works just fine. If you can't properly use Frenzy, you shouldn't even be on Warrior. There's really no point in PvP for other IAS skills for Warrior to exist aside from Frenzy and Flail. Some other ones have seen niche use as well, but yeah. --TimeToGetIntense 10:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, an IAS skill that doesn't require a cancel stance can be useful depending on the build even though in most cases you'll have one. But it's not worth an elite skill slot, ESPECIALLY since this one is conditional, which is quite retarded. An elite stance that is nothing but an IAS should be something like '5/5, for 5..20 seconds you hit 33% faster'. It would still likely not see much use, but at least you'd understand why it's elite. But i think the main reason Soldier's Stance is balanced like that is cause it's in Tactics, and as such can be used by /W for a 33% IAS too. Which doesn't mean it's any good. It should have an extra effect, something like 'Shouts last 50% longer on you and while under the effect of a shout you hit 33% faster' or 'while under the effect of a shout or chant you hit 33% faster and deal +1..10 damage' or 'hit 33% faster and while under the effect of a shout or chant you can't be blocked'. The last one in particular could be worth an elite skill slot. Patccmoi 14:24, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Nice suggestions pat. Mine would be an unconditional IAS, with a conditional 25% speed boost if you are under a chant or shout.--Atlas Oranos 05:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Or at least for that duration an Adrenaline Cost not a Energy. Tomoko 23:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Personally, I like the idea about adding bonus damage while under a Chant or Shout. It'd make my E/W (yes, don't laugh!) even better. - Vermain 18:35, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Reason behind my suggestion was to add alittle utility with the stance, as well as possibly a little bar compression.--Atlas Oranos 05:37, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Personally, this seems built for /W secondaries, as most of them have methods of either keeping enemies near them or boosting their speed without a stance. You'll never really see a primary Warrior using this, simply because it's inferior to stuff like Eviscerate. For the people that could use a (relatively) unconditional attack speed boost, it's great. With that in consideration, I don't think there would be any harm in giving it something like a small damage boost while it's active. Would be a nice boost to us crazies who like running weird builds. - Vermain 18:24, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Kinda sick of evisc being thrown in the face of every balance argument, but yeah, it would be more powerful for spiking. But this could allow for more pressure Imo, especially with some of the shouts a warrior can belt out.--Atlas Oranos 16:14, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem, ultimately, is that pure pressure is better applied by things like Thumpers. All that Warriors truly have is spiking capability. There's a reason you never see Cleave being used in top-end PVP, as Eviscerate is just loads better. Soldier's Stance also tends to limit the Warrior's usefulness, as they have to either exchange a slot for a continually re-appliable Shout (of which only "Watch Yourself!" really tends to fit the bill), or depend on someone on their team to also bring a shout (which limits their ability to split). It's not an ideal situation as it stands, but, short of nerfing Eviscerate into obscurity, there isn't much else you can do to change people's minds. - Vermain 01:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Still stance itself is just bad considering warriors have enough other and non elite and often unconditional options, as long as its conditional, something else might be added, +dmg, +movement speed or +% to block might do. Biz 06:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If this will be longer duration and adrenaline I'm happy enough Tomoko 13:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I personally use this skill with a conjure build to enhance my DPS at all times with no need for a cancel stance. However, it really could use a buff, since right now it isn't earning its right to be an elite. Add in 25% block, or a 25% movement buff. Or, cause this skill to remove 1 condition each time you fail to land a hit. --Reklaw 19:47, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * For 4...16 seconds, you attack 33% faster while under the effects of a Shout or Chant.Shouts and Chants last 20...44% longer [[Image:BaineImg.jpg|19px|||My Talk]] BaineTheBotter  08:10, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

why bother with this skill? just go with W/P and use Soldier's Fury for 1 second of loss, its an echo, so it can't be removed, and a 10 second IAS while under a shout with 1 second cast. same speed increase, for longer. this skill is way underpowered. --Uberxman1028 02:07, 9 January 2008 (UTC)Uberxman1028
 * This skill was badly designed in the first place, let's forget about it. Just use Frenzy and be happy. :) If you forget for a moment about all the underpowered skills, GW has a pretty solid skillset with a lot of good gameplay. Skills with strong effects with risks/conditionals that promote active play. The skills that should be buffed are ones that would fit this skillset and make it more fun. How can this skill make GW better? It can't, Frenzy is a perfectly designed skill. There simply don't need to be other IAS skills. Flail is actually good too, but it's one of the very rare cases that two skills that are used for the same purpose are both viable at the same time on similar skill bars. It's really rare for this to happen. --TimeToGetIntense 08:04, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Far too debilitating to be useful (except for Kanaxai). Yes, it's an unconditional kd... but that's just about it. Shock outclasses this skill, even with the exhaustion, as it is a non-elite; I'd even bring along Grapple over this skill... Either lose the adrenal bit, or lose the 'disable' bit, it might be viable then... Or maybe just a shorter recharge, but I think that's a no-go since Assassins might spike more than Izzy intended to, this way. Saph 21:13, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This should be in line with Headbutt, "high" armor ignoring damage for higher cost, but no warrior specific counters that will stop most people from even considering it. Biz 22:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Can't be too hard to get a midliner to spam Aura of Stability on you and use Grapple anyway. --TimeToGetIntense 11:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd really like to see the "lose all adrenaline" bit removed, it might make skills like Steelfang Slash or Lacerating Chop see some use also. Currently I can only see this being used in an all energy bar, and not all of us can afford Zealous weapons. - [[Image:User HeWhoIsPale sig.PNG]] HeWhoIsPale 15:42, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Lacerating Chop is crap, that skill doesn't even match axe warriors (KD - hammers, bleeding - sword). Steelfang is perfect for a Coward sword warrior though, and some people have had plenty of fun with that bar :D. Back to Shove... Shove Hammer warriors can get off a pretty nasty spike but their pressure is garbage. Assassins also used to bring Shove alot for a double KD chain that could decimate bad backlines. Shove isn't bad, it's just lacking in versatility (since it eats an elite slot). Dropping the adrenaline loss would make this skill too powerful. --Tensei 14:35, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that was the point of Lacerating Chop, it's awkward, but can inflict a condition axes aren't very good at (like Axe Twist and Axe Rake). I'm not sure why hammer warriors need shove, they have plenty of unconditional elite knockdowns already. What would you suggest to increase it's versatility? I rather like this skill, I'd just like it to work a bit better for non-hammer warriors (whom I'd imagine were it's target audience). - [[Image:User HeWhoIsPale sig.PNG]] HeWhoIsPale 14:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The recharge should be lowered to 10 seconds, right now it's completely outclassed by Signet of Judgment. --TimeToGetIntense 02:10, 7 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Lol, gogo shovesins ftw. I endorse this change.  --Symbol 14:18, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Without losing all adrenalin this skill would be ok, because the skill already disables all non-attack skills! They should change this and give it an deactivation time of 10 seconds for all other skills without scaling. Without that, it even will stay inferior to Shock, which isn't an elite... A. von Rin 22:26, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I just realized this skill would be really neat on a Paragon if it were "nearby" range. You could go catch a spike on an ally with it, but it would still require positional awareness and stuff. Just really unplayable at "adjacent" right now. --TimeToGetIntense 05:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it would be fun trapping UW with this, but adjacent range is why we never tried using it. 3 October 2007
 * I think adjacent is a necessity, otherwise it would be a bit odd. But cost and recharge could be tweaked, then some people might use it - more in PvE, I see no real use for this in PvP. --Longasc 01:40, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I see a use for PvP. Your Paragon is already speccing in Tactics AND he's standing in your mid/backline most of the time; he's already positioned and specced to be able to use this skill. It requires positioning and awareness to use so I think it's a great skill to buff to make Paragons more skill intensive. --TimeToGetIntense 14:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm no Paragon expert (I hate playing as them and find them worthless in most situations), but I'd say a Paragon that's serving a proper role in GvG will be using more prudent skills than Protector's Defense. It's not like you see skills like this on utility rangers, after all. --Reklaw 22:14, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Because Rangers never spec in Tactics, let alone take Warrior secondary. You say Paragons are worthless, yet they've been widely reguarded as overpowered in GvG since NF's release... and do I have to explain how I picture a Paragon using this skill? To stop people from hitting his allies. Because he's a midline character, he doesn't need to move very far to defend an ally with this skill, but he would have to actually be aware of who needs it when. If you consider that Monks often use skill slots for stances which they would not have specced for otherwise, why is it such a bad idea to slot this on your Paragon who's already specced for it anyway? --TimeToGetIntense 00:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * GvG Paras have better things to put their atts into than Protector's Defense, much less Tactics. The whole point of Tactics is to use shouts to fuel energy, which does not require speccing. --Reklaw 08:24, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Wrong. They spec for "Shields Up!" and for a decent amount of armor on "Watch Yourself!". The shouts are used for their effects in addition to energy. If you didn't care about the armor or blocking of projectiles, you'd be speccing Command instead. "Shields Up!" is very powerful because it prevents enemy Rangers from interrupting consistantly unless they bring Magebane Shot and it can't be removed. It also makes it much easier to get up Defensive Anthem because of this and makes your defense web even stronger. --TimeToGetIntense 18:56, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It's hardly so widespread. Point being, there are better options than filling up with 3 or 4 Tactics skills most of the time.  PD doesn't slide into its supposed role easily.  The adjacent range is what hurts it the most.  Clumping up enough for the effect (to protect against what is usually 1 cripshot ranger) just doesn't make much sense. --Reklaw 07:08, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * First of all, most Paragons in GvG go tactics. "Shields Up!" owns Rangers. It lets your team get off powerful skills like Diversion and Aegis much more easily. If the enemy is using Magebane Shot, then you've forced them to take an elite to counter a non-elite skill, so you're still gaining an advantage; they don't have Cripshot.


 * Second of all, I suggested increasing the range of Protector's Defense to nearby, so what's your point? I won't try to claim that it is a playable skill in it's current form. With a nearby range it would not be practical to try and ball up in it, but the Paragon could use it to catch melee spikes on allies or support one or two casters to protect them from pressure or interrupts for a short period of time. --TimeToGetIntense 22:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It's a legitimate idea but I don't think it would pan out well in execution. --Reklaw 07:59, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

This skill makes me sad. It has a lot of potential tactics wise (especially on frozen :D), but is pretty much unusable as is. Maybe Change it to 5 en and 30s recharge? --Ax
 * Good idea, it would be a pain for kiting foes.
 * 5e/30r would be very playable... and strong. I like it. Who wouldn't enjoy using it? XD --TimeToGetIntense 13:40, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd love to use this skill with 5e/30r, lets hope Izzy reads this =)
 * Hmm, what about 5e/20r? If it's 30r you have to assume you can catch ~3 people with it every 30 seconds to match Bull's Strike being used well every 10 seconds. Admittedly, no one is perfect with Bull's Strike, but it also does damage and causes a lot of pressure. This skill doesn't seem to have that kind of potential, so I think 30r wouldn't be low enough. It's too random, less versitile than Bull's Strike. It might be a concern that casters would start using it, but who goes Warrior secondary on a caster? It's just not that useful, it's not often a viable option, so I think this skill would be safe to buff a lot. --TimeToGetIntense 22:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * What about replacing the fixed rechange time with a fixed self-disable which scales with tactics? -- Gordon Ecker 07:05, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd hate to imagine a skill like that on an IWAY team. Imagine 5 or 6 warriors staggering the use of this skill every 5 seconds or so.  --Reklaw 08:02, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I was thinking of something more like or . -- Gordon Ecker 09:16, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Was responding to the 5E 30R idea actually. Disabling based on number of targets affected would work, though. --Reklaw 21:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Somehow 5 or 6 Warriors doesn't seem viable in serious play to me. --TimeToGetIntense 23:07, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Heroes Ascent would disagree with you, each day of the week. The standard Zerg build would benefit from the suggested change by swapping out something like D-Chop for NSP for some reliable KDs to accessorize "Fear Me!". But in high end GvG?  Heavens no, of course not.  Then again, it's not like modern GvG is known for breaking any molds anyway, so moot point I suppose.  --Reklaw 10:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You have a point, but who cares about HA? It's always going to be full of gimmicks like that. I'm not even sure that would be a better choice than DChop or Hammer Bash or whatever because SS Warriors are adrenaline machines so they can spam those skills for really high disruption. --TimeToGetIntense 19:28, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

With the recent change to this skill (to rape Zergway teams), I felt like this deserved some discussion. In its current form it's basically completely unusable unless it's on 6 people, and everyone is spamming it. If you feel like tossing this on your bar in RA, you're wasting your time. The 6 second recharge means you can only drain away 3-4 energy every 6 seconds, and that's if you're using an adrenaline gain to instantly fill the skill. Otherwise, it's more realistic to have to wait for enough hits to gain 4 strikes, which will be more along the lines of 10 to 12 seconds. A profession that this skill might actually be effective against will by that point regenerated more energy that you could ever hope to remove with this skill. Even professions with 2 pips will have regenerated enough to cover the loss.

Like many skills that have been nerfed in the past, this skill was basically not worth taking on one person, but was nerfed into the ground because of team builds that involve using the skill across multiple characters. So, I suggest nullifying that playstyle rather than ruining the skill so that it's necessary to have 6 Warriors running it just to make it effective. Ideas:

"All nearby foes lose 1...3 Energy. For each ally near you upon activating this skill, this skill is disabled for 2 seconds."

"All nearby foes lose 1...3 Energy. For each enemy affected, this skill is disabled for 1 second."

"You lose 1 energy for each enemy near you. For each unit of energy lost, all nearby enemies lose 1 energy, and this skill is disabled for 6...1 seconds."

"1...4 nearby foes lose 1...4 Energy." *recharge: 3 seconds

There are quite a few options. I'm not defending Zergway, but some of us would actually like to utilize skills like this without having them buried due to gimmick builds. --Reklaw 23:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I think i know how to bring this skill in line:
 * "Target foe loses 1...4 energy" 1 Recharge, 4 adrenaline. Maybe just adjacent range? Honestly, the high AoE and easy spammability with "FGJ!" made this too easily abusable, but 6 recharge is WAY too much imho. ~ 68.91.255.44 01:45, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * A few adrenaline skills have recharges, but that is so they don't recharge themselves. Either change this to energy or raise the adrenaline cost; that recharge just doesn't "fit" with the mechanics of adrenaline. Randvek 20:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Auspicious Parry and Whirlwind Attack have recharge times so they don't charge themselves, but "Go for the Eyes!" and "Watch Yourself!" got recharges due to the synergy with Leadership and Finales. I don't see any problem with a recharge time on "Fear Me!" or any other adrenal skill as long as the power and cost fit the recharge time. -- Gordon Ecker 03:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

So you no longer need any major energy management to do UW runs ? =D Biz 09:36, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it was designed to nerf SS/DB iway... ~ 68.91.90.168 00:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Orlly? Thought it was to get rid of that pesky ursan-way. -- Readem 03:02, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I think they should change the skill to 8 adrenalin and give it a far higher amount of energy loss (something like: 3...5...8), so it won't be that bad and it wont be spammable again... A. von Rin 20:45, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * In its current state, one copy of it with steady stance maintains the equivalent of -2 aoe energy degen. Thats hardly bad to begin with. Changing it to 8 adren and wiping more energy means it does pretty much the same thing. Lord of all tyria 20:47, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

not worth it on any warrior skillbar when Soldier's Strike is in the same attribute line. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 17:31, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Neither are worth it, period. Bad on a spike. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 21:43, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Elite Skill, but weak compared to "Incoming!". Maybe the Skillfunction may be changed in this case. Because Tactics is less powerful then Command and the Paragon got the function of the Party-Speed-Booster now ("Fall Back!", "Incoming!"), Maybe "Retreat!" and Charge! are more useful with some other Effects e.g. more Armor at "Retreat!" (IWAY) and on Charge! maybe 25% IAS with shorter duration.

I just can't see any good points for using this as of now, it's an elite moderate adrenaline cost conditional knockdown. Those words just don't work well together, it's relatively simple for the warrior to just use bull's strike, shock, or some other knockdown with more utility. And lowering the adrenaline wont really help in my opinion, you could add something spiffy like "If knocked down, target suffers from crippled and weakness for 15 seconds" (that was a YAA spinoff I know), or perhaps reward you with a small adrenaline gain (may be fun for paragons). But as of now it's a cool shout, with a bad effect. Mi Nd L e Ss 21:18, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd disagree, the effect is actually pretty damn good. Totally prevents kiting. Bull's Strike still has to be in range and connect, Coward! can be used on any1 as long as they're in cast range to catch up with them. An adrenal reduction is all the skill would ever need for a buff, but i'm not sure if it'd be too good after that. At 4 adrenal it would be extremely powerful for instance. Maybe at 5 it would be a bit more interesting Patccmoi 06:26, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, I tried this out on a Paragon before and it was really interesting but it just took so long to charge that I'd rather just take a cripple or something. skaspaakssa 14:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If target foe is moving, that foe is knocked down and crippled for 4...9 seconds? No cover condition and shorter duration compared to Cripslash, but also KDs and allows the use of an axe. 220.101.136.175 14:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * IMO it's weak. No one uses it. The only threat is when Luxon Warriors spam it in Fort Aspenwood in succession, but I somehow doubt humans can spam it so perfectly, and if they do, great. Servant of Kali 22:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Coward kind of sucks because you use 1 strike of adrenaline when you use it, otherwise it might combo with steelfang slash or lacerating chop (bull's already works, but not like anyone uses steelfang). Make it 5 adren, KD's a target if moving. If you KD a target, you gain 1 adrenaline.--Zarfol 15:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Make this e based. Then simply increase the rec to like 12, and it will see more play, and generally be better. Readem   Promote My Ban Here  05:58, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I would actually use that.--Atlas Oranos 08:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * /signed. Similar to Gale, but taking up your elite spot. I still fear for abuse, though, maybe 15 or even 20s recharge would be better. Shove would seem utter tripe to the proposed buff (though it already is right now)Saph 10:18, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * With some assistance you can gain 6 adren a lot faster then 12 seconds yet still, you hardly see wars with elite for anti kiting. No value at all in pve and never seen in pvp, no matter cost or recharge. Biz 10:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It might have some use if it was changed so that it doesn't drain adrenaline from your attacks. I could see it on a split warrior.
 * I think Bull's Strike is just hands down a better skill because it does damage. It causes way more pressure because of the damage. For example, every time you Bull's Strike a Monk, they end up taking enough damage that they are forced to cast something when they get up, so you can toss in a DChop and interrupt a skill very often. The chances that they will be forced to cast as soon as they get up are lower when you use "Coward!" because it deals less damage. The only advantage "Coward!" gives you is stopping people from running away, like if the enemy team is collapsing, but who needs that? You should have snares from your midline. If you're using it on split of course it wouldn't be enough to keep another split guy from getting away unless it had cripple like suggested above. Seems like it would only be good on split though, so people still might not use it.

--TimeToGetIntense 15:09, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Coward is pretty retarded after the update, especially on characters that don't rely on their elite and/or adrenaline (sword warriors/paragons and sins respectively). --Symbol 03:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it's perfect now unless you're some retard who wants to maintain the status quo. Stop QQing about skills that are actually good, for the love of god! At 5 adrenaline or higher "Coward!" would suck, at 4 it's perfect. --TimeToGetIntense 10:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not QQing about anything, just pointing out the obvious. It's super strong on the right template, and I think it's only a matter of time before someone finds a way to abuse it.  But at least it takes a modicum of skill to use effectively, so I can't care too much.  It certainly isn't underpowered now.--Symbol 14:17, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'll agree there. This should be archived probably. --TimeToGetIntense 20:34, 26 January 2008 (UTC)