Talk:Poison Tip Signet/Pre-Release Discussion

Skill Tweaks 07/26/07

 * Poison Tip Signet: 10r 5..15s -> 6r 8..15s
 * Please discuss skill change here. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:32, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * poison someone every 6 seconds if you hit... hard to tell how viable that could be without being able to play it. Barbed arrows, poison tip signet, burning arrows as a nrg saving alternative to a apply poison, burning arrows, screaming shot bar. Why not take off the easily interruptible condition off barbed arrows? Might make poison tip signet more attractive that way i think.87.194.81.41 00:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)Lorekeeper


 * This actually seems very interesting now, especially for /R likely. It's even a fairly interesting signet for builds that could need some. For example a W/R that could bring Poison Tip Signet, Antidote Signet, Healing Signet, Rez Signet and attack with Symbolic Strike. Patccmoi 02:59, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Definitely a welcome buff, but a 1 second signet cast is clumsy for any pressure-attacking damage class. Paragons miss their adrenaline gain for that second, Warriors and Dervishes have to catch up to kiting foes, and Assassins already have Black Spider Strike. Maybe that's the point? To condition-pressure a team, spamability is key, and a duration only 2 times as long as the re-fire rate limits that. Maybe I'm over thinking this. --Skye Marin 03:33, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * This + Barrage or cyclone axe, who needs apply anymore?--Hydralisk mk2 07:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Each arrow from barrage, each hit from the cyclone axe (or triple chop, etc), counts as a separate attack. So only the first target hit would be poisoned. I think; possible that I'm wrong.--Drekmonger 07:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I would have loved to see this work with barrage fully. Lower the poison duration if need be. There are skills that affect signet's and spirits also. I was let down when I read this will work with the first foe attacked. The wording for barrage and this skill need to be changed to avoid confusion and being mislead. Perhaps the wording could be "The first foe struck by your next attack is poisoned for x...xxx seconds" Chik En 18:40, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Nice change, I expect it to be somewhat useful with the longer duration and lower recharge.--Atlas Oranos 19:10, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree as this is a pressure skill (as it is a condition, and conditions [other than DW] are pressure) the 1s cast time is what really hurts this skill. I don't want to make Apply Poison useless either though, however I think a 1/4 cast time is what this skill needs. I think a 3/4 cast time would work as well, however 1s is too clunky. Living Parasite 07:42, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * A step in the right direction, but I'm not sure it would fit on my bar. Reduced cast time sounds nice, but looking at it from a developer's view I can see how you'd be reluctant to do that.  [[Image:User GD Defender sig.png]] 07:49, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * As above. 6 second recharge is just right, but needs faster activation. Arshay Duskbrow 09:41, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * A 3/4 cast time would be just fine imo. Shendaar 18:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I actually really like this skill.... at least for PvE. I frequently bring Poisonous bite as a way of inflicting poison in PvE while barrageing. This provides another way for me to get some poison on foes without taking the pet. I agree, this is never gonna find its way into PvP pressure bars, But PvP and PvE play are drastically different.Fei To 17:38, 28 July 2007 (UTC)Fei To

Skill is still weak, cast time is a real killer here. You eat too much time casting it. Short cast time is the key to making this viable. I wouldn't run it a 1r with a 1c. -Warskull 03:58, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Could be fun on a Mesmer.Nicky Silverstar 08:18, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Assuming this is a signet because no-one would ever use it if it costed energy to use. Fair enough, What I find really odd about this skill is how long you can wait without attacking before its effect goes off, a full 60 seconds? That's quite some precast. I' happily see that dropped even to as little as 10 seconds (like so many paragon chants) and have that casting time shaved down a bit. I can see this going on an assassin's skilbar in advance for a spike, adding a little extra bite to comboes without either of the spider attacks. --Ckal Ktak 13:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Is this supposed to affect only bows attacks or all attacks, either physical or "magical" (wands etc...)  Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 14:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I would imagine any melee (physical dmg) Chik En 14:39, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd like to know the exact effect because for instance apply poison was once triggered even by non-physical attacks. When i see this skill's description, it is supposed to be the same i guess  Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 14:44, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Personally, I'd like it to also scale how many attacks it works on. It could be really interesting on a Wounding Strike Dervish if it worked multiple times.  Maybe something like 0->1  6->3  12->5  15->7? Give Wounding Strike a +damage mod and you've got a new melee condition build. Gothica 02:01, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well if it affected too many attacks it would basically become a non-prep Apply Poison, which would be dangerous. Let it affect 2 or 3 attacks at most, but just 1 would be fine if the activation was better. Honestly, I think this would be better as a 5 energy instant-activation "skill". Signet effects can't be removed anyway so it wouldn't be that big a change, and having an energy cost (albeit low for Expertise Rangers) would balance the quick activation, as well as make it less of a no-brainer option for Sins, Dervs and Wars. Arshay Duskbrow 20:33, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Used this during the preview event, wasn't bad, comparing it to apply poison works great in smaller battles. Synergy was good using it with Screaming shot for a nice degen, believe there recharge times are the same/similiar also. Definately doesn't have the condition spreading power of apply, and i don't think it should, no multiple attacks working on this, otherwise it would render apply poison kind of obsolete, in pve there are enough viable options to spread poison without using a multiple target hitting attack. I notice a few people talking about this is good to use for pre battle engagement, so is apply poison (although for an a/r it would hurt energy too much, but sins have there own poison skills, should never really bring apply poison or signet) in most situations. I still feel strongly about the activation time, it's far too slow, should be 1/2 at the slowest, i'd love to see it tested at 1/4 though, i think that would make it a balanced variable skill to apply poison. After writing all this i noticed Arshay's idea on changing to a skill, sounds like a brilliant idea :) Ghostun 00:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree on the activation time, 1 second is to long expecially because this skill is used to clear the preperation slot, so it would add a considerable ammount to the overall setup time of a range.(expecially since it needs to be reapplied every 6 secs) In conclusion this has to have at least 1/2 second activation time in order to be viable. Rez Meh 20:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Not-a-preparation
I suppose the first and obvious question is whether this will work with Barrage (and the neat new non-elite Volley)? If so, it's got a slot on my bar... Though I don't know where... - Tanetris 22:29, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It will work with barrage because its a signet and not a prep. This will be a great skill. - Chrisworld 18:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Obviously, being a signet, it's not a preparation. -- [[Image:User_losershawn_sig.jpg|shawn]] (shawn - talk) 22:42, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * All all the arrows counted as one attack? or individuals? In which case only one person would get poisoned. -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 01:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This signet would most likely work like Signet of Strength, and thus only 1 target will be poisoned.
 * I really don't see the usefulness of this skill. Sirocco 04:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ditto. Lasts one whole shot... not good. Needs a 1/4 sec (or zero!) activation time 203.217.0.53 04:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Use with barbed or rapid? I sure won't mind 33% IAS on my BHA/Cripshot/Utility ranger. 1/4 would be nice. -203.218.108.183 08:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This my be useful on an Assassin with Toxic Shock, but other than that, no, I dont see a purpose.84.136.254.14 10:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, it also should work (by wording) with nonbow weapons, which makes it reall nice alternative for Apply poison on classes that can handle energy got of apply. That said, 1 sec activation time is horible, 0.25 or even instant cast would be way better. Zweistein 08:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps barbed arrows+Burning arrow+this? Tho an RC would eat it up pretty nice so it would be restrained to RA/TA but could be realy nice to see how it would do Quazark Zeklar  [[Image:UserQuazark Zeklar lifebond.jpg|19px]] 11:08, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Screaming Shot+BA+AP does about the same thing. --Ufelder 11:13, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Interesting skill, could help using other prep than apply poison. Considering it's just for 1 arrow with 10s recharge, i'd consider either reducing recharge or raising duration a bit though. Something like 7-8s recharge or 10..22..26s poison Patccmoi 06:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't sure how this was going to work so I tested it some, looks like it only works on 1 of the arrows from barrage, and it's not always the target of barrage, but more the first hit. ~Izzy @-&#39; 22:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * That is consistent with how other skills like this work. Backsword


 * Could you change the way Barrage (and I'm assuming volley) worked to allow them to use this skill effectively? Or maybe add a couple more hits to the signet... like a scale at 12 wilderness survival it effected the next 6 attacks? I prefer the change to barrage more as it seems less messy with balance (but probably a lot harder to do). I think this skill is one of the most simple skills yet one of the most interesting ones being offered and would love to see it get a nice use in barrage builds. Also 60 seconds seems a bit redundant on a skill like this with only one use, I don't have a problem with the duration just I don't see it happeneing very often. Dancing Gnome 06:53, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

This not very powerful. But the only real cost is the skill slot. My guess is that it will see minor use, on a few builds with slots to spare. Backsword 16:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I belive it will apply to the first arrow to strike in Barrage, similar to Nightmare Weapon or Splinter Weapon. I dont see this applying to any general B/P build for PvE. Burning arrow + barbed arrows + poison tip = massive degen. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:24.166.5.29.

I would run crip shot the degen caps at 10 anyway but it could still be interesting. I however think it may be more useful on assassins than anything. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:69.227.211.93.

Definitely needs to affect more attacks, although as has been said, the activation is bleh...I'd actually rather see this as an instant-activation 5 energy "skill" that affects maybe 3 attacks. Oh, and bows attacks only, please...Arshay Duskbrow 00:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Unless you can see some omgwtfpwned combo that could be used with weapons other than bows, there is no need to make a limited skill even more narrow. I agree about the sucky 1 second activation. --Ufelder 07:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * If it's made bow-only, it can afford to be made stronger without worrying about abuse by other professions. Arshay Duskbrow 08:00, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * As long as it's not another copy of Apply Poison. --Ufelder 07:12, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The poison needs a longer duration.

Does it affect *ALL* arrows in the next attack? So if I combine this with Volley, can I spread poison to multiple targets? ChaoticCoyote 02:53, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That would be great imho and would give this skill a nice little niche, although it would also have to apply to barrage aswell, still not overpowered imho, but someone above said it is limited to the initial target. Dancing Gnome 12:25, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The game considers each arrow in skills like Barrage to be an seperate attack.81.16.165.151 12:53, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion this skill is good as it is now. Maybe the duration of the poisom might be a bit higher or recharge a bit faster, but other things are good. The reason is that for those who have a Ranger secondary, inflicting poison is difficult. You either need to use "Apply Poison" (15 enrg cost, which might be too much for some), "Poison Arrow" (you need a bow for this, which isnt good for a Ranger secondary if you are using other weapons than a bow) or the "Beast Mastery" skill "Poisonous Bite" (which needs a pet). With "Poison Tip Signet" Ranger secondary would have a good and a decent way to poison a target, which wouldn't be to overpowered at the same time. Moving this skill to "Marksmanship" isnt a good idea (as ranger primary already has good poison apilities/enrg management for using these skills and for the reason I have allready stated) or making more hits do poison (would resemble the skill "Apply Poison" too much and make "Apply Poison" allmost useless).
 * Here's an idea. How about some Ranger skills that are actually good for Rangers? Arshay Duskbrow 04:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. I really hope this skill is a ranger skill and not a sin one in the end. Maybe giving it a more powerful effect which would be abused by other classes, and then tie it to arrows, but the thing is I think its really cool as it is. Dancing Gnome 07:02, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, because Apply Poison is currently so weak and unused by rangers that we need to give them a second way of inflicting poison that is solely restricted to them. --Ufelder 08:03, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I just have to say that "Apply Poison" is very much used for rangers, atleast in gvg:s. This skill should almost stay as it is now. No attribute change required here please. This skill offers a great way to poison for those who are ranger secondary (especially for warriors).


 * It might get changed to Expertise later on, just like Sharpen Blades (which isn't that deadly, -3 degen) is part of critical strikes.

Example
Question: does this skill apply poison on every foe like you hit multiple foes with cyclone axe or something or just 1 foe...if it applies more then 1 foe then....hello Scavenger's Focus?



anyone? InfestedHydralisk  02:17, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

As "Izzy" has stated earlier, when using barrage whit this skill it only applies poison to the first target it hits. With this assumption using cyclone axe or any skill, that hits more than 1 foe at a time will apply the poison only to the first target the skill hits.


 * Ah, that sucks :P InfestedHydralisk  [[image:Shadow_Prison.jpg|19px]] 19:25, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That is why I suggested above the wording of the skill(s) be changed to something like "The first foe struck by your next attack is poisoned for x...xxx seconds" to stop misleading people and be more direct. Chik En 19:28, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Translation Suggestions
To avoid some bad skill translations i'm opening a comment for new skills so everybody can post their translation suggestions in various languages, have fun :) --YukoIshii 23:34, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Italian: Sigillo della Punta Avvelenata --YukoIshii 23:34, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Spanish: Sello de Punta Veneno Ayumbhara 20:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion
I would like to suggest that the poison duration is divided by the number of targets that will be encountered even if you miss the target or not.

Example
 * 6 targets 12 seconds becomes 2 seconds each target
 * 3 targets 12 seconds becomes 4 seconds each target
 * 2 targets 12 seconds becomes 6 seconds each target

Think of it as if the amount of poison is shared on each contact or arrow. Instead of the poison magically flying from arrow to arrow till the first target is it hit.

I realize this might make it very powerful so the recharge time might need to be tweaked for the signet or the duration dropped a little. Just my 2 cents Chik En 20:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Casting Time?
This skill could be put to great use if you wanted to take RTW instead of Apply Poison if it weren't for the 1 second casting time. The main problem i find when playing a ranger is all the pre-combat set up. 5 seconds for a nature ritual, 2 seconds for a preparation and time for an enchantment too in certain builds by which time an elementalist will have scattered all your targets. Another 1 second would be a great annoyance. To steal what somebody said earlier, would the skill not be more viable if it costed 5-10 energy but activated instantly like a stance or like Ritual Lord?

That's not to mention the one second when you're not firing arrows if you wanted to activate it in combat. The rangers dps is already unimpressive.

The thing lasts a minute after you use it, I would still favor 1/2 or 3/4 cast time though.--Atlas Oranos 04:50, 13 August 2007 (UTC)