User talk:Mtew

This is the discussion page for User:Mtew.

This is MY page. I will censor it as I see fit. The GWW administrators will also edit the material here to assure that GWW rules are followed. See Guild Wars Wiki:User pages.

I will remove material that I feel uses inappropriate language or is a personal attack. This is NOT subject to appeal. I will not delete material simply because it disagrees with my point of view.

If a particular comment does not rise above the 'obvious vandalism' or 'egregious personal attack' threshold and is irrelevant to the topic under discussion, it will be archived in The Sewer. That space is specifically for 'Troll droppings and similar dung'.

I may and probably will move emotional discussions to User talk:Mtew/flames. The following topics have been moved:


 * May I suggest.... 19:35, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Pigs 04:07, 19 February 2009 (UTC) and again 03:47, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * halp, halp 09:19, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Map size? 12:24, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

If there is too much material on this page, inactive sections will be moved to User talk:Mtew/archives.

Your username
As outlined in GWW:SIGN, your signature should represent (or be a shortened version) of your registered user name. Personally, I was confused when I saw Max 2 and had no idea it was you until I read quite a bit on your talk page and finally put my mouse over your username to verify it was you. Preferably, I'd like to see your signature back to your original mtew, because, as it stands, mtew and Max 2 are a little too different for me to consider it the same user. This isn't a demand, just a friendly note and possible warning that you may be in violation of GWW:SIGN. -- ★ KOKUOU ★ 03:42, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I would disagree Kokuou. --[[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png | Wyn's Talk page]] Wyn 04:14, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * It is initially disorienting, nonetheless --[[Image: User_Ezekial_Riddle_sig.jpg|19px|Talk]] Riddle 04:18, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, didn't know if it was just me or not, but if others are okay, then no biggie. ;) -- ★ KOKUOU ★ 04:20, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * If you read GWW:SIGN carefully you'll note he could sign with "Smarmy Mudkips" and still not be in breach, although he would be going against common practice. I consider Max2 to resemble mtew to an appropriate degree, as long as he doesn't change his signature every 2 weeks he should be fine, considering he has changed it once ever I see no problem. If he hasn't done so already I would recommend that mtew registers the account Max2 just so that no one else ever does so. Misery  06:37, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, I mentioned that I intended to do something like this quite a while ago. I'll try to register 'Max 2' and set the appropriate redirects. --Max 2 11:27, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm glad you changed. It might be a loose wire in my brain, but every time I saw your sig I thought of mewtwo -- snog  rat [[Image:User Snograt signature.png]] 12:26, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I never even got close to that part of those games. I still have them though. Ugly beast. Definitely not me. --Max 2 14:11, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * There goes that analogy :P On a related note: How do you say "mtew"? I always understand it as "em" + "tew" as in "pew pew" just with a "t" - is that correct? :D poke | talk 18:25, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Mostly you don't say it. If you insist then it is two sylables &mdash; em-too. I prefer Max-too. --Max 2 18:32, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * (rawr edit conflict rawr) Hm, I was thinking it as "meh(clipped)" "too", or what would be "metuu" or maybe "mettuu" in romanaized japanese. ^_^. Mewtwo does scary thing on das intarwhebz, so that's good, too. Oh and re Max's post, I really tend to hear things I read/type in my head, so I'll try to pronounce anything. I like Max better two. --Star Weaver 18:36, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I suspect you type everything that happens to be going through your mind at the time of posting too, Weaver :D -- snog  rat [[Image:User Snograt signature.png]] 21:54, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Erm, no. Things would be very scary if that was the case. :P. --Star Weaver 22:04, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

quest infobox
Now, what did you just add to the quest infobox and what does it do? --JonTheMon 21:26, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Section tags - they mark sections of text for transclusion. Why do you ask? --Max 2 22:34, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Uh, well, where does it get used? --JonTheMon 23:49, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * No place yet. I was thinking about a 'Required campaign' template as part of a set of templates to make the requirements sections more consistent. The tags could have several uses, or might be useless, but I can't tell if they are useful unless they in place. Since template changes disrupt the server for widely used templates, I put the tags in for all the stuff I though might be used rather than adding them one at a time.
 * It will be a bit before I get around to doing anything with this. I got the new Fedora 11 release this evening and that will almost certainly distract me for a while. --Max 2 03:08, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * So..... if it's not being used for anything, why add it into the main template? Why not make a couple of copies of a few pages and use a template of your own? --JonTheMon 03:55, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Now you are definitely trying to cause trouble just for trouble's sake. Please think. If I tried to add the tagged information before the tags exist, what happens? RED LINKS or something equivalent. So the tags come first. The only reasonable requirement is to assure that they do not mess up the displayed pages, and I did that. So GET OFF MY BACK! --Max 2 04:11, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ever thought of like, discussing these changes before you make them? - Auron 04:13, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Changes to heavily used templates should be examined. Why not wait 'til you are about to use the tags to add them? And, it's not your back I'm on, it's the template I'm looking out for. Slightly different. --JonTheMon 04:35, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Auron: Yep. Thought very seriously about it. Went back and read the advice I was given on the subject. Summary: Go ahead and make changes but don't screw things up. So what's to discuss? Have I screwed things up? If so, where and how?
 * Jon: I was about to start to use them. You jumped on me in the middle of an edit that was setting up to use the tagged information. At the same time my brother handed me the Fedora 11 update. Together that blew the sequence that was in progress. And, while you seem to think you are protecting the template, I was careful to not damage its affect, so there is more to your action than just 'protecting the template'! --Max 2 04:51, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, your words and your sequence of events aren't saying the same thing. "I was in the middle of something and got interrupted" =/= "I'm thinking of doing something and it could be useful". What I got from your initial explanation was that you were just doing it for some far-future time, not something that would get used soon. --JonTheMon 05:08, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * far future was your interpretation. I meant I didn't know how it would work out. I was in the middle of trying various ways to use the tagged information (using preview) and was not getting the results I expected. I was literally thinking about how to make it work at that instant since I had just run into a dead end knew that I might not be able to use the tagged information the way I had planned. I have noted the objections to stuff that mainly interests me, but this is/was an attempt to tackle a fairly glaring set of inconsistencies which reduce the effectiveness of the WIKI for many people. --Max 2 05:42, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, now that you have clarified your actions, I still don't see why you couldn't have copied your changes elsewhere since they weren't getting you the results you wanted. And also, maybe by bringing it up somewhere else you could have gotten input that would have made it work. Also, why do you always say wiki with all caps? --JonTheMon 14:21, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * At the time, all that I knew was that I was going to need tagged information of some sort. I tagged the information I thought I would need shortly. I did not know there would be implementation problems when I added the tags. I had just discovered that there was a problem when you interrupted. I was in the process of discovering the nature of the problem. I've had no chance to finish exploring the problem. The new Fedora release and medical problems have eaten all the time I would have used on the problem. When real-life no longer is throwing issues at me, I will get back to this and I will almost certainly be asking questions, but not at the moment... --Max 2 02:24, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Logic
Contradictory self-reference is the flaw in a theory .... That was fun to read :). -- S ilverleaf    Don't assume, Ask! 06:55, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Contradictory self-reference is a property of a statement or proposition. Mathematics is inherently self-referential. However, mathematical theorms should avoid referencing contradictory statements or propositions. In order to do that, such statements or propositions have to be properly labeled. Various papers preport that such labeling can not be done properly. There is a technique for labeling them that avoids the proported problems. Thus Gödel's theorm, while true, is of no consequence in a properly structured mathematical system. --Max 2 12:51, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It's always bothered me about G's Incompleteness that it depends on exploiting an inherent flaw in the way math/logic models theories. It seems like using a 2D global projection to prove that it can't fully model a 3D world...and then proving that is a general case for mapping. However, it also strike's me that G's point was that things are more complicated than any single system (or collection of systems) can model. I have wondered whether (a) if anyone can show that his proof is flawed and (b) whether that means his theory is untrue and/or untestable. Do you have suggestions for following-up on this interest of mine? Thanks.  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 10:07, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Physics
... I never agreed with the assumption that the speed of light was a fixed value. That was fun to read :). -- S ilverleaf    Don't assume, Ask! 06:55, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The Michelson-Morley experement demonstrated that the speed of light measured locally is invariant. Einstine uses the axiom that it it is invariant globaly - bad assumption. Consequence - time is known to run more slowly deeper in 'gravity wells' &rArr; speed of light is slower in 'gravity wells' &rArr; black hole formation really does slow down as the colapse progresses. Openhiemer blew it... --Max 2 12:51, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Near 0 Kelvin is so cold that light slows down. --User Ezekial Riddle bigsig.png Rid dle 07:11, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Temperature is a property of aggragates of matter. The speed of light is a propery of space. The two have very little to do with each other.


 * I need to set up another WIKI to continue this kind of discussion. --Max 2 12:51, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

NPA
"(herd? You mean you're part of a faceless and unthinking mob? That's obviously a homonym error, but somehow appropriate...)" That wasn't really necessary. Take it easy, k? -- Rid dle 07:19, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * His remarks were an example of 'group think' and failed to address the issue. In other words - he was dragging in a 'red herring' and doing a bad job of it. He left a door open for a relevant form of pay-back. It was a question that raised the 'group think' issue. A bit rough I'll admit, but he was already playing rough. He stops &rarr; I stop. --Max 2 12:51, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Help?
Hi Max, there's something I would like your help with. I'm trying to add a parameter to a template while making it invisible to users, but still available to wiki code so other things could manipulate it. More specifically, I'm trying to find a way to add the code...

...To an infobox in such way that the profession = part would not be visible to users, but a DPL list would still be able to call the profession parameter and use it when making a table. I have been told you have done something similar in some of your templates, so do you think you could tell me how to do that? Erasculio 02:40, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * There are considerably more than one way to do this. The choices include stylistic, philosophical and practical considerations. I've a few decades of prejudice built up on this kind of thing and I am highly opinionated, just so you know before hand. That's one of the reasons I give poke and the others a hard time.


 * The simplest, but not necessarily the best, way to do this is simply add a keyword parameter that is not used in the normal template. DPL can then do either of two things:
 * Use the 'include' keyword and the parameter name to get the parameter's value.
 * This gets painful if you want to use the value more than once and is more than a little weird when you write the DPL code. (You end up using a comma where you want the value inserted and have to use a rather odd syntax to postpone the evaluation of the WIKI code until the right time.)
 * Use the 'include' keyword and provide an alternate template to be used in place of the normal one.
 * The replacement template then uses the parameter fairly normally. The main problem is that the user's of the main template may not include the required parameter.


 * The major alternatives require thinking 'outside the bex'. One of the more interesting ways to do this is to somehow include the information in the page name. For example, if the pages could all be forced to be sub-pages of pages that indicate the profession one way or another, then you don't need to have a specific parameter.


 * Something I've been thinking about lately is having the parameters all coded as part of a switch in a sub-page. This allows all templates on a particular page to get to the values, However, I'm am doubtful that this is what you need from the little I know of your project.


 * --Max 2 03:34, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I see what you mean. I was going for a system in which users of the infobox would type the name of the profession and then the infobox would add a (hidden) profession icon to be summoned by DPL, but using your idea of including the information on what is already there, maybe I could use the name of the profession from the infobox to make the DPL automatically summon the icons without adding an extra parameter on the infobox. Erasculio 03:41, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I was a bit distracted before. I may have taken your question too literally or possibly not literally enough. Have you looked at using 'page variables'? Something like:
 * and use  when you need the icon? --Max 2 04:10, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * and use  when you need the icon? --Max 2 04:10, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * and use  when you need the icon? --Max 2 04:10, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * You are both thinking a bit too complicated about that. To be able to use a template's parameter in a DPL query, you don't need to do anything with that parameter in the original template. You just add the parameter value and then in the list, you can work with it. There is no reason to use that parameter in the template, if you don't need it there. But on the DPL side, it is available as soon as you add it in the template call. poke | talk 13:17, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Umm Poke: Please re-read the second paragraph of my first response. That is exactly what I said. I then went on to discuss how to get at the information in the DPL query. My second response basically asks if DPL is really needed or if something like a page variable will do?


 * Now, since you've stuck your foot into this, how could I have made that clearer? What was it about my response that confused you? Several people have complained that I do not say things clearly, but I know my grammar is good and, with a spell checker turned on full blast, my spelling is passable, so I must be doing something wrong at a higher level. I could really use help at that level. --Max 2 19:12, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Imo, it was the phrase "keyword parameter", as opposed to "template parameter" or just "parameter" --JonTheMon 19:28, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, that helps a bit. There are two kinds of template parameter: positional and keyword. Positional are usually in a specific order in the invocation of the template. ('usually' because there messy ways to do this differently.) Keyword parameters do not have a required position, so they can be added in any order. This provides a lot of flexibility but requires spelling pedantry. (PITA). So the distinction was needed. Real question: given that there is an important distinction, how could I have made what I said clearer? --Max 2 19:46, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for help with profession requirements
Just wanted to thank you for pitching in with the missing requirements. I'm still far too newb to know for sure if the information is right or not, so I'm limiting myself to just harmonizing the use of the profession glyphs. --DryHumour 03:33, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I am very happy to do it. If you look at the history, you should see that I have done quite a bit of editing to the pre-searing quests in the past. I'm currently in the dumps of a depression episode and having someone stirring things up is very helpful. I did a lot of testing of all the pre-searing quests. I've even got a template someplace that will tell you what quests are and are not available given the quests you have started, completed or abandoned. They may be a bit broken now due to certain people (not you) messing with the quest infobox. --Max 2 03:47, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Reverting Pre-searing requirement changes...
-- Rid dle 21:25, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) User_talk:DryHumour
 * 2) User_talk:Ezekial_Riddle
 * 3) GWWT:QUESTS


 * There does not seem to be a consensual decision that the icons are a bad idea. They are only relevant in Pre-searing, but that is where they have been added. The other campaigns use a different skill acquisition system so they would not be relevant there. I do not see a general call for removing them, only yours.


 * The other information you removed may be 'obvious' to old hands, but is not incorrect. Since these are training quests, Stating the obvious could be helpful to some people. Also, the note about not requiring the profession primary test completion is significant. The introductory secondary profession tests, which exist for all professions, are apparently similar, but do require completion of the primary test quest. While it would not be appropriate to note the absence of such a requirement for most quests, this contrast with the introductory training quests makes the note appropriate. --Max 2 21:59, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Re: Accusations and the In-Crowd
Assuming you got a chance to peruse those links that Auron provided for you on my nomination talk page (esp. the link containing the candidate statement that I wrote for my first nomination), then you know that I'm not exactly afraid to challenge the status quo, and I appreciate the importance of "dissident voices." With that said, however, I'm sure a lot of people would categorize me as being a member of the in-crowd. You throw around a lot of accusations, most (all?) of which seem to stem from a belief that the "in-crowd," as you call it, is intrinsically bad. I'd like to challenge that notion.

Consider if you will, the following hypothetical: let's say that you were to create your own wiki (widgetwiki) and were to create and implement policies that reflected your own opinion. Over time, as widgetwiki grows, your policies become ingrained in the wikiculture of your wiki and, by extension, your views are generally highly regarded and considered main-stream. On widgetwiki, you would undoubtedly be considered a part of the in-crowd. Now if I were to come along and challenge your views, would you defend your opinion any less staunchly simply because you happened to be a member of the in-crowd? Of course not. I can't imagine you'd call yourself a sycophant simply because people on widgetwiki happened to agree with you (the in-crowd), instead of me (the dissident voice). The point I'm trying to make here is that the mere fact that an individual happens to be a member of the in-crowd doesn't intrinsically make them any less intelligent, open-minded, etc. Either he is intelligent, or he isn't. Either he is open-minded, or he isn't. Being a member of the in-crowd has little or nothing to do with it, and, frankly, I'm a little bit tired of you attempting to villanize people as sycophantic members of the in-crowd when their only "crime," so to speak is that their views happen to be mainstream and people happen to agree with them (and not with you). The only thing that separates the in-crowd from the dissident voices is a revolution.

In point of fact, if you did a bit of checking, you will notice that members of the in-crowd do, in fact, disagree with each other on occasion, sometimes vehemently.

As I said at the beginning, I understand the importance of dissident voices, but you need to realize that the fact that you happen to be a dissident around here doesn't make you any more right than a card-carrying member of the in-crowd, and your less then veiled accusations regarding the respective characters of Tanetris, Poke, Pling, etc. are obnoxious and disruptive, not to mention that they're not gonna do you one lick of good if you hope to be taken seriously. Now, of course, you can feel free to disregard this entire post simply because I too am a member of the in-crowd, but you'd really just be proving my point, so I'm willing to take that chance. And when I tell you that you'll garner a lot more respect for your opinions by sticking to logical discourse and not resorting to ad hominem attacks, I'm offering you sound advice. I know, I know, you don't care about respect, but you obviously do care about your opinion being heard, and as much as you may dislike it, you'll need to be respected (as an intelligent, thoughtful dissident) if that's gonna happen. As a general rule, always avoid accusations unless you've got solid evidence to back them up (i.e. evidence that doesn't consist solely of your own opinion).

On a more official note, you should understand that I consider ad hominem attacks to be violations of GWW:NPA and, since they tend to needlessly cause discussions to escalate into arguments, I consider them disruptive to boot. You're welcome to say whatever you want about most things, but if you continue to attack the personal character of other users, I won't feel the least bit iron-fisted for exercising my authority by banning you.

Sincerely, &mdash; Defiant Elements   +talk  04:13, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd also like to add a brief addendum regarding your statement on Salome's talk page that we (the in-crowd) tend to favor people. Of course we do! Bias is inevitable. But bear in mind that bias is not intrinsically a bad thing. Consider, for instance, meritocratic systems that favor individuals who are more intelligent, more industrious, etc. That's an example of bias/favoritism. Now if you can point to any instances in which, say, admins have abused their position by blindly favoring one individual in a way that defies good sense, feel free to share it, but don't go around acting as though you're above bias or as though favoritism is inherently a bad thing. Don't forget, your little crusade, itself, is an excellent example of bias (anti-authority, anti-in-crowd). &mdash; Defiant Elements   +talk  04:28, 24 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm responding to only the parts I read earlier here. More later...


 * Very interesting and well reasoned. I should probably read your earlier stuff...


 * Were I to put up an open public WIKI, I hope I'd be more willing to listen to other points of view than the core in-crowd on GWW is. The fact that there is an 'in-crowd' is inevitable, as you point oout. The intolerance of the in-crowd might also be inevitable, but every effort should be made to prevent that. In that respect I will always be a dissident.


 * Your comment about respect is off the mark. I am very into respect. Competent respect. Earned respect. I will even respect appropriate and competent authority. What I do not respect is arbitrary authority. I also have trouble with 'leveraged respect'. Competence in one area does not assure competence in all other areas. For example, Poke is a very competent coder and computer language lawyer, but his understanding of 'artifical intelegence' relationships and how they can be represented needs development.


 * A problem (possibly the problem) I have with GWW is the disrespect dished out by the GWW 'in-crowd' for outsiders. Auron and Belar are two particularly egregious examples of this problem. And, of course, there are others not in the 'in-crowd' who cause problems.


 * It's all 'politics' and my chronic depression does not let me enjoy politics the way some people do. This is a 'no shit – it's for real' medical problem. It gets noticeably worse when I've been off meds for a period of time. Financial issues make those meds unavailable from time to time. I'm just coming off a med hiatus. So, yes, I really am 'crazy'. I have trouble not being disruptive. The best I can do is constructive (as opposed to destructive) disruption.


 * Ad hominem characterizations can indeed indeed lead down unproductive paths. Your warning provides good advice.


 * Tired, rambling and borderline incoherent. Time for a nap. --Max 2 06:06, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I apologize for misrepresenting your views on respect. But, if you truly mean what you say about respect, then you're gonna need to get a few things straight. First and foremost, Pling, Tanetris, Poke, et al have been proving themselves worthy of the respect of this community for a long, long time. Like Armond said, they're the leaders around here for a reason. You, on the other hand, have done absolutely nothing to earn the respect of this community from what I can tell. Quite the contrary, in fact. I've been browsing your contributions both here and on GW2W, and they're rife with snide remarks, unfounded accusations, and ad hominem attacks, not to mention that your overall style tends to be very confrontational and you often fail to deign to provide any sort of substantiation for the claims you make and the views that you hold beyond your opinion. Moreover, you compound the problem by becoming frustrated and defensive when people don't come around to your way of thinking or when they don't understand your point of view. Note that while this post represents my opinion, I am confident that I can substantiate every claim that I've made thus far with links and diffs, Frankly, unless you make some serious alterations to your behavior, I can guarantee you that people are not going to respect you (or even take you very seriously). The following is a list of suggestions and pieces of advice that I've compiled for your benefit: I'm sure there are other suggestions that I could offer, but this is all I could think of for the time being.
 * Know when to walk away from a debate. Discussions have a way of escalating into shouting matches very rapidly. Sometimes, the best thing you can do is to step back from an argument and give yourself (and the people with whom you're arguing) a chance to calm down. Similarly, learn to recognize when a discussion has run its course or when you've reached a total impasse. It's always a bad sign if you find repeating the same argument again and again, and if you've tried several different approaches and they're just not working, take some time to consider whether it's really worth continuing the discussion.
 * Don't feed the trolls. The best strategy when dealing with trolls is to simply ignore them, and it's imperative that you learn to do so. Responding in any way inevitably leads to escalation.  Consider, for instance, the inflammatory nature of the remarks you made about Belar on Salome's talk page.  While it's true that he was being a troll, responding in the fashion that you did was literally begging him to respond in kind.  On a similar note, I suggest that you get rid of "the sewer"--that page, by its mere existence, is troll fodder.  (Also, please bear in mind that it is generally considered bad form to selectively archive your talk page except in cases of blatant spam.  Armond's "pro-tip," for example, while poorly phrased actually contained some sound advice--you'll notice that I referenced it above.)
 * Tone down the confrontational behavior and learn to work with other people. Wikis are collaborative efforts and consensus is usually achieved through compromise. Whether or not you're a dissident, you're still a member of a community--act accordingly.  On a semi-related note, I would suggest that you remove the portion of the disclaimer on your talk page related to censorship.  It is not only confrontational, but also a misrepresentation of your authority: you are only allowed to censor your talk page in so far as you are allowed to archive it, you have no other authority in this regard.
 * Avoid any and all unsubstantiated claims, especially claims about the character of other users, either individually or as a group. I would further suggest that you knock-off the "in-crowd" nonsense in general.  Likewise, snide remarks won't get you far.
 * Don't jump to conclusions about people when they disagree with you. There's a big difference, for example, between people who are being close-minded and people who are merely unable to understand your point of view because you're being unclear (doing a better job of elaborating on and logically substantiating your claims will go a long way in this regard).
 * Avoid excessive use of bolding and/or capitalization. Shouting emphatically isn't gonna win you any discussions.
 * Do your utmost to detach yourself emotionally when engaging in discussions. Wikis are poor forums for people who are easily frustrated or quick to anger--those particular emotions tend to interfere with logical discourse--so you'll need to get a handle on those two emotions if you really want to participate meaningfully.
 * Remember that wikis are governed via consensus, which means that unless you can convince other people to support your dissidence, you're not going to have much (if any) impact. Being a lone voice of dissidence is all well and good, but it won't get you far unless you're successful in forging broader consensus.

Now, with regard to some other points you made. I've yet to see any evidence of the intolerance that you point to. While I have noticed the disrespect that you mention (and I've already spoken to one individual about that behavior), I haven't noticed your opinions being dismissed without consideration. Bear in mind that it is possible for someone to give thoughtful consideration to another person's point of view and decided that it lacks merit, which is to say that while I've often seen your opinions disagreed with, that's not at all the same thing as intolerance. Intolerance would be telling you to stfu and do what the cabal tells you to do. For the most part (with some notable exceptions), people seem to be responding to your posts thoughtfully (responses to your unfounded allegations notwithstanding). If nothing else, as far as I can tell, you seem to be at least as unwilling to entertain, say, Tanetris' point of view as he is to entertain yours, and I certainly haven't seen any meaningful attempt on your part to compromise, so I'm not sure there's any evidence that you would in fact be more "tolerant" if you were the in-crowd.

For the record, I'm clinically bi-polar, but that hasn't prevented me from participating constructively. While I realize that the effectiveness of medication and the severity of mental illness varies from person to person, it's still a poor excuse at best. Frankly, you have no business editing a wiki if you yourself admit that you can't stand it/that you are incapable of participating constructively. &mdash; Defiant Elements   +talk  11:02, 24 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "And, of course, there are others not in the 'in-crowd' who cause problems."


 * --> [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 18:00, 24 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry for the long delay getting back to this. I found a solution to a hardware problem and that freed resources that had been holding up some projects. In particular, one of my machines, which had been stuck using an ancient software version, has now gone through 8 operating system upgrade cycles and has 5 more to go before it is current. Once that machine is 'up to snuff', there is another machine to resurrect and yet another to upgrade and retask. I'm actually awake, lucid and without something I can do for a little while waiting for a chance to make the hardware configuration change needed to do the backup before the next upgrade.


 * I'll need to review this thread to regain its context, so my response here will be brief, tangential and fragmentary... There is one main person I particularly dislike here – Belar. One of my major handicaps is dyslexia and he has repeatedly made crude and disparaging remarks about my spelling, and worse. I will cut him absolutely no slack as long as he persists in that kind of behavior. Contributions – I have made a small number of significant contributions and a fair number of corrections and enhancements to articles. The corrections and enhancements have mostly been accepted without controversy. The contribution sequence carried through Prophecies and Factions (IIRC) but ran out of steam before getting to Nightfall. Someone else picked the sequence up and did Nightfall. (Also note that Poke threw negative opinions at the effort, even though others have found the material useful. This is why I have some reservations about Poke's opinions. While great technically, his typographic sense is not on the same level as his other skills.)


 * I'll be free to make that configuration change in about half an hour so it's time to stop and get ready for it now. --Max 2 12:17, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Removing comments
You can feel free to archive old discussions, but you can not simply delete comments from your talk page, whether you want to or not, it is not allowed as per our Userpage policy. -- Wyn  talk  06:58, 24 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Wyn: Please read and follow that policy. The inappropriate material has been MOVED to a more appropriate place, not deleted. --Max 2 07:09, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Haven't seen you in awhile
So, I thought I'd ping your talk page to let you know that you've been nominated in the 2009-10 Bureaucratic Election, by one "Salted Peppers". -- FreedomBound  12:47, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

User:Brian...
...was never blocked. I guess you mean User:Briar? - Mini Me   talk  18:18, 27 March 2010
 * Correct. Thank you for pointing that out. Fixed. --Max 2 19:37, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't see the point
But go ahead, go nuts if you think it's really necessary ^^ - J.P. Talk  17:11, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The infobox list includes all preceding quests and missions, not just the immediatly preceding one. From personal observation, I look at the requirements section to determine if I have all the requirements for the quest. Having to also check the infobox and weed out the extra quests is frankly a PITA.
 * I can understand the note on quests not preceded by some other quest, yes. - J.P.[[Image:User J.P. sigicon.png| ]] Talk  17:28, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Signing your comments
Could you? --JonTheMon 17:32, 16 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I forget sometimes. Sorry. --Max 2 17:34, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Non-prerequisites
There is no point in listing quests which are not prerequisites (e.g. Warrior's Challenge). Since this is closely related to the discussion which you started on GWWT:QUESTS requirements, I would suggest that you wait for the outcome of that discussion before proceeding. --DryHumour 17:55, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually there are a number of quests in pre-searing that already had such comments. I was just adding that note to the ones where it was missing... --Max 2 18:07, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. For my part, I had been steadily removing them as I tripped over them.  Either way, I agree that consistency is a good thing.  --DryHumour 18:17, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I vote for removing those not-prereqs, under the assumption that if it's not in the prerequisites it's not a prerequisite. Unless you want to add Mallyx the Unyielding (quest) as a non-prerequisite to every quest page on wiki? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 22:33, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * First, This only applies to pre-searing additional skills tests.
 * Second, I am removing the text from the individual quest descriptions.
 * Third, You are being deliberately obtuse, so STFU. --Max 2 22:39, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, I wasn't being deliberately obtuse, I had no idea that you were removing said text (since above you said that you had been adding it). Sorry. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 22:44, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Ummmmm
Just wondering what is the purpose of Template:Normalize (i.e. when it will be practically applied). I see the ease of use for typing instead of Guild Wars:Eye Of The North But something like  is more complicated than just writing 'warrior'. -- R i ddle 17:45, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * -*edit*-Also, as I just found out, subst'ing that template doesn't work at all. :/ -- R i ddle 17:49, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I expect to be used in other templates where the value to be normalized is a parameter. It would let almost any reasonable value to be supplied for 'profession'; for example 'profession = w' and 'profession = warrior' would both refer to 'warrior' after normalize is used. --Max 2
 * I see. So this will see use in infoboxes and similar templates? -- R i ddle 18:01, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Could be... Where ever appropriate. Also, additional categories of abbreviations should be added. As far as I am concerned, this is just a starting point for others to work from. This is a wiki after all... --Max 2 18:05, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Please tell me where does the "blocked by" in Template:Quest infobox exist? Or do you mean something else when you say 'blocked'? -- Lania Elderfire 02:36, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

If another quest lists 'this quest' as an 'incomplete' requirement, then that other quest is 'blocked by' 'this quest'. For example, 'Message from a Friend' is blocked by 'War Preparations', but is not required to start 'War Preparations'. As such, 'Message from a Friend' is listed in the 'Preceded by' infobox list of 'War Preparations', but should not be listed in 'War Preparations' requirements. There is no 'blocked by' parameter per se. --Max 2 03:01, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Ah I guess... odd phrasing. Plus that's something that happens very rarely which would be taken care of with a note in the notes section wouldn't it? -- Lania Elderfire 03:24, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Fairly rare, yes, but 'Message from a Friend' is the earliest quest available in the earliest campaign. It's a bit hard to miss. It really messes up the identity of the list in the'Preceded by' infobox section and a list of quests and missions that may be required to start a specific quest. Cuss it, that is what has really been bugging me in the whole 'requirements' debate. I just had not quite been able to state it clearly until now. Maybe a symptom of my old nemesis, dyslexia.--Max 2 03:44, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

1RR
Don't break it, and certainly don't complain about people who didn't break it if you actually did first. The only one starting a revert war was you, and you're lucky I didn't notice your second revert when I read the report. Consider this a warning. &mdash; Why 20:06, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * To add to that (and this is me speaking as just a normal user) common courtesy on wikis dictates edit-revert-discuss, not edit-revert-revert-discuss and certainly not edit-revert-revert-revert-revert-discuss. I advice you to keep that in mind when editing, since avoiding the revert war reduces irritation, which in turn leads to a better and quicker discussion. &mdash; Why [[Image:User Why s.png|User talk:Why]] 20:23, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Template:My
What is it used for? (in short, you need better usage instructions) --JonTheMon 22:36, 2 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It's a general method for accessing data page items. Yes, I'll be working on the documentation. Thanks for the review... --Max 2 23:36, 2 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Generally you should build your page in the user space before bringing it out into the main space. You should do that at least until it's ready for use so you don't confuse anyone.  -- Lania Elderfire [[Image:User Lania Elderfire pinkribbon.jpg]] 23:48, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

The noticeboard
is not a whine-to-mommy board. When you fail to play nice with someone and they revert you, they haven't automatically broken 1RR and you are not in the clear to report them on the noticeboard. Learn to play nice with others, and, if you find that impossible, at least learn that we're not going to bully them around when they challenge your changes. Come back in 3 days with a more positive attitude, and only post on the noticeboard when admins are required to act. - Auron 23:58, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * And for the love of god, read the 1RR policy once in your life before claiming people have violated it. - Auron 00:01, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That was totally uncalled for and represents an egregous abuse of discretion on your part. --Max 2 06:00, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

standard prereq
i donno if you know, but on each page you're updating, it says cannot have that quest... twice ...just a little heads up (might wanna fix that in the template if possible) Sonic Friday 23:00, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Why are you using the parameter to post redundant information? -- R i <font color="#333333">ddle 22:58, 14 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I am going to remove the redundant line from the 'pre' section shortly, so I'm adding it the the places it is used. --Max 2 23:05, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No, no, no. The whole point of the template is to reduce the amount of typing and duplicated information.  Please discuss these things before you do them.  --DryHumour 00:18, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Pre and Ascalon Academy
As I pointed out above, the whole point of the templates is to reduce the amount of typing and the duplication of information. All of the pre quests have Ascalon Academy as an anti-requisite: that's why I put it in the template in the first place. Please don't make major changes (e.g. ones involving dozens of pages) without first discussing the matter. In this instance there was – and is – a very good reason why it was done the way it was. --DryHumour 00:22, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

It is clear that you have made up your mind and will not be dissuaded. It is not me that you are expected to clear things with: it is the community at large &mdash; and you have made no effort whatsoever to do so. --DryHumour 02:51, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) It is not you who is doing the typing, so that part of the argument is totally off the mark.
 * 2) Treating pre-Searing as a special case makes it difficult to enumerate what the actual requirements are for any given quest. I want to write some reports on the inter-dependencies of the various quests, missions, professions and experience levels. Separating the actual requirements will make that a lot easier.
 * 3) The formatting for a particular kind of information should be determined in a single place. Having two places where some of the formatting has to be changed is inviting a screw-up.
 * 4) Templates with complex parameters are harder for inexperienced editors to use. The fewer special cases there are and the less variation in ways different parameters are treated, the better people checking the information will be able to do.
 * 5) See GWW:AGF. Having to clear everything with you slows things down.
 * --Max 2 00:48, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Point number 5 doesn't hold: He didn't say that you were purposefully editing to disrupt and detract from the wiki, which you are saying he did when you invoke GWW:AGF.
 * To be fair, though, you probably meant GWW:BOLD -- <font color="#ef8f50">R <font color="#916142">i <font color="#333333">ddle 00:53, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * GWW:AGF sub-point 3 applies. GWW:BOLD also applies, but the powers-that-be don't like it, so I don't quote it often. --Max 2 00:59, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Likewise, sub-point three could apply to you. This is why we (more properly, you two) are discussing the issue. -- <font color="#ef8f50">R <font color="#916142">i <font color="#333333">ddle 01:02, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * He's the one doing reverts, not edits. Think about it. I believe I know where he stands. I think he is failing to appreciate the complications his 'simplification' produce elsewhere. I've made that mistake enough times myself that I am fairly confident that it is happening here. --Max 2 01:09, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I stand by my argument. Please stop.  --DryHumour 02:07, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I do not find your argument either clear or persuasive. You have not addressed my comments. --Max 2 02:40, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Then you are wilfully misunderstanding my argument. Nor do I think it likely to be profitable to be drawn into a debate over a set of points &mdash; all of which I disagree with &mdash; which end with "Having to clear everything with you slows things down."

On Template:Standard prerequisites
What purpose does the "parameter usage" section serve, and why does it have to be on that page? (As in, you can't call that list elsewhere?) -- <font color="#ef8f50">R <font color="#916142">i <font color="#333333">ddle 01:17, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It's a maintenance tool. Normally, it should be commented out. It represents enough effort that recreating it would be painful, but it is not normally needed. It got left active by mistake. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I deactivated it. --Max 2 01:24, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You didn't answer my second question. Does it have to belong on that page? -- <font color="#ef8f50">R <font color="#916142">i <font color="#333333">ddle 01:30, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It is specific to this template so it belongs nowhere else. Poke thought it was not worth while building a separate tool. I did make a very quick stab at such a tool, but ran into technical issues. It's easy enough to build with cut-n-paste but the result is page specific, so yes, it has to go on that page and it should normally be inactive. --Max 2 01:38, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * But why is it on the page itself, and not on, say, the talk page of the template or, since afaik you're the only one who wants to know that, in your sandbox? --JonTheMon 01:47, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The tool can't go somewhere like this? Why I am persistently bugging you is because I plan on removing it from that page, but I don't think that it is entirely useless. It serves as a point of confusion for those who don't know it's purpose, and I don't think that it will see enough use to warrant staying on that page indefinitely, active or not. I do believe that the best solution would be if it found it's way elsewhere. Otherwise, from a quick surmising, the tool seems to activate when reinstated, so if it is ever needed, all you need to do is throw the code back on to the page. -- <font color="#ef8f50">R <font color="#916142">i <font color="#333333">ddle 01:52, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The tool is specific to that particular template. It belongs on that page. However I agree that the results in produces are confusing. It is also expensive to run it. So it belongs on the page but should not be activated unless needed and then only temporarily. --Max 2 02:42, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Why doesn't that code belong on the talk page of the template? --JonTheMon 02:55, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Because the talk page is in the wrong namespace and DPL knows about namespaces. --Max 2 03:12, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Just change the <tt>uses</tt> argument to name the template explicitly. --DryHumour 03:19, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * And then it does't work when the page is moved or copied to another page. Yeah, right, great solution. Better question &mdash; Why not just leave it there as a comment? Why this desire to delete other peoples work? --Max 2 03:28, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Quite to the contrary: it doesn't work now when it's copied to other pages. ;nationality: Copy that anywhere you like: it'll still provide you with a table of pages which use nationality. --DryHumour 03:34, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * With Dryhumour's code: User:Ezekial_Riddle/Sandbox. -- <font color="#ef8f50">R <font color="#916142">i <font color="#333333">ddle 03:41, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Same thing, but main namespace pages only, which might be more useful for your needs. --DryHumour 03:48, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

;nationality:
 * His code will track the old template but will not track the new location. If you copy the template to a sandbox or move it to a different, you'd want it to track usage of the code in the sandbox or the new location, not the original code. You guys are obviously not defensive coders. No wonder this stuff is so brittle. --Max 2 04:04, 15 May 2010 (UTC)


 * At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I repeat: this is not a programming exercise, it is a wiki. Nevertheless, I had assumed that you wanted to track Standard prerequisites specifically.  However, if one were to want to track a template from it's own talk page, it is not difficult to do: just use <tt>  </tt> instead.  --DryHumour 04:13, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

;nationality:


 * Who the hell is talking about programming. Coding applies as much to writing wiki stuff as it does to many other kinds of writing that is not unadorned natural language. And your assumption shows a bit too narrow a focus. It's a tool that is intended to track the use of the template code, not necessarily the page. (The confusion is likely due to that it does not do the right thing with the 'include' parameter. I was not able to get that substiturion to work in a streightforward maner. White space sensativity problem I think, but it was a quick and dirty. The cleanup is not a priority at the moment. I want to sleep on it first.) Now why the hell has it been removed. It was commented into inactivity. Wasn't that enough. Or is this another instance of deleting stuff just because you can delete it. --Max 2 05:20, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) It was not I who deleted it, nor did I request its deletion. I personally don't mind in and of itself, but it is a further example of using a mainspace template as a sandbox, which I do feel is inappropriate. I realize that you have advanced the argument that it was not possible to do in any other way; I personally doubt that, but you are welcome to the benefit of the doubt since I do not know what exactly you are trying to accomplish. --DryHumour 06:45, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Common issue
I see one pervading common issue in almost every single issue that's brought up to you hear Mtew. You need to discuss changes and gain community consensus before just wholesale changing pages, and most especially templates. Regardless of your personal projects, and your personal wishes to "write reports" this is not your private testing ground. I personally take serious issue to all the crap you are adding to all these pages. Not only is it cluttering up the RC, it is making the templates much more difficult for new editors to decipher. You have been told time and time again to discuss changes rather than just making them, but you don't seem to get the idea. This wiki is based on a community run proposal/discussion/consensus basis. Please stop what you are doing until you have discussed it. You are very close to the point of majorly violating 1RR. -- Wyn  talk  01:48, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you are projecting.


 * There are some serious inconsistancies in the wiki that need fixing. This template, which was not created by me, is a partial remedy to some of those problems. It has some minor problems of its own. The changes I am making now are not massive compared to the expected application of this template. They only deal with specific problems associated with a relatively small sub-set of its applications. However, the changes do not happen instantainiously. I have chosen to make the changes using a safety first procedure. One where the information appears twice while the change is in progress. That replication also helps to assure that the changes are not being applied in the wrong places. When the corrections have been made and verified, the replication goes away with the last change.


 * What you suggest is in fact contrary to the usual spirit of wikis. Specifically, I see a problem and I am fixing it. The process has some temporary visable effects. Instead of letting me finish the process, you are putting up road blocks. The road-blocks are much more disruptive than what I am doing. In fact, the road-blocks are actually destructive; they remove information where I am adding information.


 * --Max 2 02:40, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The information was already present. You are not adding anything.  There are so many areas which could be usefully contributed to.  Why do you insist on reinventing the wheel?  If you have some broader scheme in mind, then by all means discuss it before implementing bits of it.  --DryHumour 02:54, 15 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The information was already present in the wrong place. I am/was moving it to the place where it could be found most consistently. I'm not reinventing the wheel. I'm fixing the missing spokes. Why are you breaking those spokes? And why can you make changes without discussing them while I am not allowed to? --Max 2 03:18, 15 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It was not in the wrong place: you've now duplicated it &mdash; pointlessly &mdash; to dozens of pages. And as for changing things myself: I already told you that I got beaten up for it and have learned my lesson.  --DryHumour 03:22, 15 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Since it seems that no one here understands what you are trying to do, it would probably be best if you used your sandbox to demonstrate what your goal is. copy as many pages and/or templates there as you need.  Then when you have something that will wow everyone and cause them to realize the error of their ways, you'll have no one objecting to making these changes in the main and template namespaces.  Just a thought on a way of doing this without causing all the drama/disruption.  --Rainith 03:27, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * DH:Of course you don't think it was in the wrong place. You are still way to eager to delete stuff.
 * Rainith:Sounds good. Doen't work. Net visible impact on completion intended to be none or almost none. Impact is on the info-structure foundation and the foundation of a sandbox is by definition sand.
 * --Max 2 03:46, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

then I'd suggest dropping it. If you're doing a lot of work, and pissing people off left and right for no real benefit, then what is the point? Unless the point is to piss people off, in which case... --Rainith 03:51, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If the net visible impact on completion is "none or almost none"


 * My biggest concern is not any one specific project Mtew. You seem to have these same issues with each of your projects. It's nice you want to fix inconsistencies, however, you just make these decisions of how to fix them by yourself, with little if any discussion with anyone else, other than asking poke technical how-to questions. Then when people question what you are doing, and ask you to stop until you have community consensus, you tell us that we are all wrong, and just continue with whatever you are doing. That is not how things are done here. If someone, ANYONE, asks you to stop what you are doing, then just stop, and discuss it, instead of just shoving your ideas down people's throats, and disregarding their concerns. You've been told repeatedly not to make these wholesale changes in mainspace until they have been discussed and agreed upon, and yet you continue to disregard those requests. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  03:59, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) (Edit conflict x2) I think if you would simply explain what it is you are attempting to achieve, there's a much better chance that others (myself included, incidentally) would support the initiative. It appears to me at the moment that it is just change for change's sake. I realize that is probably an unfair characterization, but that's what it looks like, absent any explanation to the contrary. So far, as I have attempted to argue previously, my opinion is that it is not change for the better &mdash; but I am willing to be convinced otherwise. I simply don't understand what you are ultimately aiming for. --DryHumour 04:02, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I've been trying to figure out what the point of all these changes to the template to duplicate information... but i have no idea other than to make things ugly. The spirit of the wiki is community development.  Everyone has equal right to change things and edit pages.  But when one person's edit annoys the entire community, that one person needs to stop and listen to the community. Mtew, if you are going to talk about the spirit of the wiki then you need to pay closer attention to the community and to what the community wants...not what you want.  If what you want syncs with the community then that's great, but when it doesn't you need to rethink what you are trying to do, and why the community is trying to stop you.  -- Lania Elderfire [[Image:User Lania Elderfire pinkribbon.jpg]] 04:12, 15 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Wyn:You've got it backward. I do stop when asked. What causes problems is when other people start undoing the stuff I've done without understanding or discussion.
 * LE:So you are complaining about the fact that I didn't get all the edits needed fast enough and a few raw edges that I was using to make sure I wasn't destroying information were still showing. Yes the result had not been cleaned up properly when people (more just a certain impatient person) started jumping in with the reverts. You're chewing the wrong Arse here.
 * I have to assume that I am the party in question. It was your impatience &mdash; viz your failure to discuss your changes ahead of time &mdash; which precipitated the problem in the first place.  When I saw the edits I originally assumed that it was just a simple oversight on your part.  Accordingly, I made what I believed were corrections.  It wasn't until later that I realized that you had a broader plan.  It would have greatly simplified things if you had simply added a note to Template talk:Standard prerequisites to say what you were up to.  --DryHumour 07:08, 15 May 2010 (UTC)


 * DH:Try to find all the pages that have 'unstarted' requirements or their equivalent. Very complicated to do the way things stand at the moment. Try to find quests with minimum level requirements. Before my last series of changes, you'd have missed all the 'transfer' quests unless you coded for them specially. Same with locked and unlocked. That's the set of problems I'm addressing.


 * The output of the template should be a simple function of its parameters. If you really want to special case pre-Searing quests, make another template that provides the constant parameters to the Standard prerequisite template. Don't Kludge up the Standard template. And for the sake of us all, Don't activate that Kludge by default! --Max 2 05:20, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Since it was I who authored the template in the first place, I can categorically state that it was not a kludge: it was entirely conscious and intentional. As I have said before: the point of the template was to reduce typing and reduce duplication of information.  It was not, in any way, intended to provide any type of metadata for mining via DPL.  The standard template does exactly what it was intended to do: provide uniform boilerplate text and formatting, removing the necessity for repeating it on multiple pages and it does so in a manner that minimizes the amount of data which needs to be explicitly provided.  Perhaps it does so imperfectly &mdash; it certainly does not cover all contingencies &mdash; but changes should be discussed before being implemented.  --DryHumour 06:51, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Block
You. Just. Don't. Get. It. People keep telling you, but you just don't seem to get it. The current templates work, they aren't perfect, but they work. These quest templates are used quite a bit on the wiki and changes to them affect a number of articles. It is not unreasonable to ask you to explain what you intend to do and get a little agreement from others that a) that the change is a good idea and b) that it is worth doing. People (myself included) have tried to convince you of this tonight, but you just ignored us and went on with what you were doing.

I personally don't give a flying fuck what you're trying to accomplish with the templates right now, but it is causing a disruption and so I've blocked you. If when you come back I see that you continue to forge ahead in the same manner you've been doing, I'll block you again. Complaints can go to my talk or the Admin Noticeboard, you can request arbitration against me or request my reconfirmation. --Rainith 05:51, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Potential solution
Since we clearly are having difficulty working together, I suggest, in the spirit of conciliation, that we try to find a better way forward. It seems to me that we are each having difficulty communicating with the other, so I proffer the following suggestion: we each agree to keep the other informed of any major changes which we are considering (say all those affecting the template or any involving more than two articles). The discussion could be posted to Template talk:Standard prerequisites and we would agree to wait a reasonable amount of time (say 48 hours) in order for the other to see it. Then some sort of dialogue perhaps could be achieved before either of us proceeds to make changes which might interfere with designs that the other may have. This doesn't necessarily mean that either must agree with the other, or that any sort of veto is involved, but it would at least mean that an attempt could be made to reach a compromise (should one be needed) before potentially further annoying the rest of the community. This mechanism would also laterally serve to inform the community at large (or at least those few who are likely to care) and help to remove the potential for awkward situations like the one we found ourselves in.

In this spirit, and by way of offering an olive branch, I think I may have come up with a rather elegant way of supporting both sets of requirements. I've posted a note to Template talk:Standard prerequisites outlining the idea. I welcome your comments and criticism. --DryHumour 21:22, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Deliberate Trolling
Just saw the note over on Auron's talk page. Sewer is ready. Nuff said.

--Max 2 17:30, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

If you don't mind...
Can you remove the spoiler tag from your subpages? It unnecessarily clogs up Category:Spoilers. Thanks. -- Konig / talk 12:02, 31 July 2010 (UTC)