User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Overpowered Skills/Monk/Archive 4

Now I know I am basically sticking my face in a flamethrower and other parts in a hornet's nest, but I honestly feel that this one skill has determined the face of Guild Wars. (Add Shelter and Protective Bond to my suggestion as well to a slightly lesser extent.) PvP: I think in PvP it is fairly balanced. I'll be honest in that I have not PvP'd (other than AB) in quite some time, but I think the theory behind the skill is good. Plus a theoretical 10 hit death is still plausible. PvE: This is where the skill pushes mountains. This skill is so crucial in high-level PvE and in farming it makes me sick. 'Conclusion' It just sucks that the way challenges have been implemented has further caused a need for this one skill, and then it further sucks that this one skill's entrenchment has caused designers to just go for a numbers-increase challenge stance to Hard Mode, bosses, etc.
 * Firstly, we have the 55/27 monk/necro or whatever else it may be using Prot Spirit. I think that coming up with this way to solo was pretty clever, but it is so prevalent it has to be in the minds of the challenge designers when they come up with new areas and monsters.
 * Second is the double-damage bosses. I would love debase that person for just deciding that "hey, double-damage = better challenge" because it just forces requirement of Prot Spirit or Shelter and pray for a quick take down.  Without Prot Spirit, designers could develop challenges and not have to force something that makes sure no more than 10% of your life is damaged.
 * Third is Hard Mode all around. Again, A.Net decided more damage, more speed, more life = more challenge, which just requires more damage mitigation, and Prot Spirit is the mitigation king.
 * I first pray that there will be nothing so crucial like this in GW2.
 * Second, and less feasible would be for this skill to be analyzed (along with Shelter and Protective Bond) in how crucial it is for certain challenges, and the effect on what would happen if these skills did not exist.
 * Finally, I think that the skill should be changed as follows: For 5...19...23 seconds, target ally cannot lose more than 10% max Health or 50...30...25 damage, whichever is greater, due to damage from a single attack or Spell. --Ravious 01:15, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm confused...your argument is saying how much this skill is absolutely needed because of the "challenge", but you want it nerfed? Is this just an anti farm rant with some extra babble added in? --Deathwing 01:32, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Nerfing this skill would completely throw off both PvE and PvP. Its a staple in 95% of monk builds, and the other 5 are probably smiting.  Its not so much that this is overpowered as it is superused (if thats even a word).  I gotta agree with Deathwing here: this sounds more like an anti farming rant with prot spirit as the excuse to be here.--John deathblade 03:59, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Zzz, this is balanced. No need for nerf. - Auron 04:00, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * John deathblade is right. Affecting this one skill would imbalance could affect PvP (doubtful with my suggestion to change) and would affect PvE to such a degree that the whole game may have to be rebalanced.  My discussion is not some hidden anti-farming rant.  I thought it was really clever to do a 55, but I think that the fact that there is a 55 build affects designer's choices for mob/challenge creations far too much.  My main problem is the 400+ hit Ele and Rit bosses and the creatures in Hard Mode and many elite areas where it seems the designers just assumed everybody would come in with %-damage mitigation and be able to take these ridiculous hits.
 * Look at the campaign progression. In Prophecies, except for arguably the final Titan quests, this skill is not required on a monk's bar.  It is helpful.  Then the 55 build came out.  Okay fine.  But then in Factions we get double-damage bosses feasibly created due to the popularity of Prot Spirit (they remain in Nightfall).  In DoA %-damage mitigation is crucial because most things can kill you in 4-5 hits, and much of Hard Mode (especially bosses) follows that line.  IMHO, all because of one skill.
 * My point that this is Overpowered is that you cannot affect this skill much without so much of the game crashing to the ground. If such a skill has that power, I feel that it has too much weight in the game, and should be examined for future games (GW2) and possibly current "problems." --Ravious 15:26, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree with you completely, Ravious. I don't think this skill is needed against double damage dealing bosses, and I think they are actually a very good way to make players think. You are right - some players just assume that you need Protective Spirit and that's it. Others, however, have learned how those double damage dealing bosses are easy to deal with as long as you have a Mesmer with any kind of caster shut down, or a Broad Head Arrow Ranger, or something similar. In other words, these bosses have allowed some players to learn the importance of shut down - as opposed to everything else in PvE, that you may crush just by doing more damage to them than they do to you. This is the kind of thing I believe the game needs - making shut down more important than raw damage, so a Mesmer finally becomes useful, as opposed to players just taking more and more Elementalists on their groups. That some players would not to adapt to shut down, and therefore find themselves troubled by said bosses, is a problem that is bound to happen, but I think the benefits outweight that problem. Erasculio 15:34, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I totally agree with Erasculio, the problem isn't skills anymore but rather player's knowledge that keeps playing the sameway therefore not being aware of the changes and the other ways of playing (as Erasculio said for instance, ps is for "passive "damage reduction whereas disruption and shutdown are more "active" and you end up with the same result and even a better result with disruption/shutdown, even if it lacks of versatility the game still has some subtilities that should be used)  Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 15:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Too bad it does not really work this way, you still really need PS because most of the time, before shutdown gets rolling, you are bound to get few hits and evne with shuitdown, spells get through. Besides, shutdown is can done by single skill: BHA, that hardly promotes mesmers (as far as meele shudowns goes, it is not really needed, and if it is, simple weakness or blind does the trick); Good protection skill is also more powerfull that shutdown, because shutdown is rarely area effect, but prot can handle bigger mob,and even if you shutdown boss, you have his mob that tries to kill you. Besides that ,there is always debate whther dead moster is better than alive but shutdown (i go with fact that dead one being shutdown for good ) Zweistein 16:13, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think ANet added damage in order everybody to have to bring PS... I think PS because of its own nature, just got a very good place but there are lots of other skills that can do the same job, concerning PvE as it seems this is where this skill seems to bother you. Look at Bonds, they do the same kind of job, without the %negating effect (except for Life Barrier), Paragons can do the same thing with "they're all on fire" but ppl don't use it. Monks can also use Healing Seed and healing Hands to negate damage.You could also complain about Searing Flames and MS Elementalists'. there's a lot of subjects that we could open around this fact : some skills have an advantage upon others in certain situations, the fact is that in PvE those skills are very powerfull and begets others, so are every AoE spells like SS. I think nobody would be able to rework all those skills in order every skill to be balanced in every way, it would be fair but impossible, i think you should try to accept it, i understand this is not "normal" that ANet kinda encourages the use of certain skills but i have to say that if every mob was doing the same amount of dmg that prophecies' mobs lots of ppl will leave PvE because it's way too easy (maybe it wouldn't if there weren't those spells i agree but you can't remove them now). However that shows how GW is lacking of versatility, and i think everybody knows it. It's getting better, you can do lots of interesting builds now but ppl keep running the same builds because it still works and they like it, i think your reaction also has something to do with frustration but well we can't really do something about it at the moment   Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 15:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that shutdown and other avenues are key, but how easy is it to shutdown Podaltur the Angry that can lob off a Spirit Rift every 2-3 seconds at a cast speed of about 0.25 seconds at a good 350 damage or ol' Arbor Earthcall that can get up to 450 damage in less than 0.1 second with Shockwave every . Guilt and Mistrust are great, but at the speeds some of the bosses are going, it kind of doesn't work as well. Even Poison Gas, Dazed, Arcane Conundrum stacks could work but the amount of damage a boss will have already outputed makes Prot Spirit the winning way. Hard Mode should have bolstered the need for what you speak of, Erasculio, but it went the other way and just bolstered Prot Spirit. --Ravious 16:28, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The Rt : kitt/move and you will avoid Spirit Rift :p The E, move and cripple him, besides you can use daze or Guilt as you already mentionned, or use a W/E or E/Me tank and don't say that's too hard, or if it is it means your Mesmer doesn't have enough FC or your teammates are not well positionned:p Furthermore you can easily anticipate because mobs usually always open the fight the same way, just go look at how he works.I'm pretty sure this way you can just go with your ranger and immediately cast distracting shot and that will distract the boss first skill. there are loads of ways... Wouldn't you complain about Resurrection Signet too ? Because you can't play w/o it ? A think you're doing lots of noise for nothing (a skill) that still leaves 7/8 of monks'bar open to originality ^^   Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 13:01, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * First off, I'd like to find the mesmer you know who is twitchy enough to catch a bosses Spirit Rift, because I want him in my guild to interrupt Glyph Sacced Ressurection Chants for me. Second: Guilt has a horrible recharge, Spirit Rift does not, energy loss barely matters to a boss. Daze (BHA specifically) really is the answer to casters in PVE, not mesmers. Protective Spirit is the best monk skill in PVE. I could not really give a rats about farming 55 builds, even outside them it is king. It _isn't_ a necessity in most PVE areas, even HM Ritualist/Ele bosses but you sure as hell are better off with it. You could probably bring a constant TNTF or a Spellbreaker (bleh) or Obs Flesh cookie cutter pick up pve garbage but really outside of that - if I want to daze a caster boss, I want the person doing it before the party joins them to have Prot Spirit on them, I want the guy being spike by 4 Lightning Orbs to have Prot Spirit on them. Cutting down a 200 damage Searing flames to only 60 (or 45 because people think their radiant armor is awesome) is rather <3. On it being overpowered: Well it's key to making all Low HP farming builds work, whether that is an issue or not really is down to opinion I think. Outside of that it's just a solid skill. I think if the AI was less inclined to focus their damage on one person, it wouldn't seem as strong as it is, if such was not the case, skills that protect one target significantly (Shield of Deflection, Shield of Absorption, Protective Spirit) would not be as amazing in PVE as they currently are Yesitsrob 20:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * And why wouldn't you take a BHA R and a Mesmer ? Besides you can just cast guilt (used to make a spell fail, i didn't want to drain a boss' energy), MS the boss and that's all with all those AoE powerfull spells. Of course there will be a downside, why are you complaining because it is hard ? Isn't that Hard Mode? If you think Normal mode is hard and bosses are extremely difficult to handle in normal mode, then you should play another way imo. i'm not saying this is easy, i'm saying this isn't too tough, so tough that only PS is THE solution and that you feel like you can't do anything but dying several times until you finally get him (even if it is the case in some Hard Mode situations who are really difficult and that can be done only by using a certain kind of build). Seems like you understood we were saying something like "don't take PS or whatever, just Daze and Blind". No, we said it is another way to do it that also helps beating things in a safer way. Most of what i said before expect the very beginning of my post wasn't a direct reply to Yesitsrob, i just wanted to synthetise a little bit my thoughts. I agree with the end of your post, this skill just exploits the way PvE and mobs are basically working, therefore it is overused (if this word makes sense), not overpowered  Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 10:34, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * On the mesmer, well I probably shouldn't drag the discussion out here, but really when you daze someone in PVE it's the only shutdown you need I find, the AI doesn't put emphasis on removing it (more often than not it's covered too and there will be many conditions spread around mobs - bleeding from Jagged Horrors, Weakness from Enfeebling - they don't have any priority on removing the daze and with 10 minions bashing away etc even HM Boss 1/4 casts barely get off. - I think BHA is even stronger on a human Ranger who is capable of using it with epidemic properly. Yesitsrob 11:13, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well you're right actually, i didn't take in consideration all those minions out there and people focusing their attacks on the boss, i was more thinking about daze because it was easier to disrupt if the opponent casts twice as long, i know there is Arcane Conondrum for this but if your mesmer first cast AC then he might miss Spirit Rift or so if it was cast meanwhile (when you were casting AC i mean). I don't know if i made it understandable xD And you're right, this isn't really the right place to speak about it sorry :p  Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 11:19, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I see what you did, added in an exception to exclude 600 hp monks and 55 ones alike. This would actually make it STRONGER if the person is anything but a farmer though due to the fact they'll be taking much less than 10% damage with that exception added on. I see where your going and I'd like to agree but I don't think it's worth overdoing a skill to stop it from being used just to farm.  May have mistook it sorry if I did. Unforgivablesin 23:00, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I say nerf it to 15%. Then it takes at least 7 straight hits to kill you, down from ten. and that's ignoring health degen. It really is the most important and powerful skill in the game, and needs a nerf. The only question is whether the rest of the skills can cope without the number one protective spell in the game backing up their build. --T-Lo 20:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What about increasing the duration but limiting the number of times it can prevent damage? -- Gordon Ecker 23:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You want to kill this skill for farming? Simple: For 5...19...23 seconds, target ally cannot lose more than 93...57...48 Health due to damage from a single attack or Spell. Maestro Ed 03:36, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If they'd have made it like this in the first place I don't think anyone would have thought much about it - but since it wasn't the skill has been cruicial in so many pve farming builds that the amount of QQ'ing nerfing it would create would be pretty annoying. I think it would be more appropriate, as it is it's a solid means of protecting the guy who got too much DP or whatever in any game type. 10% with a minimum 48 health lost at 12 prot would have made the protection spec actually matter a bit more when running this skill (as is you get away with... 3) - but now I really wouldn't change it :\ Yesitsrob 05:51, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Overused, not overpowered. It's fine as is.  —ǥȓɩηɔɧ  〚 ₮ /ḉ〛 04:09, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think it needs a nerf, but if it does get adjusted, I think it's important to single out the problematic usage while leaving it largely unaffected for other uses. -- Gordon Ecker 05:37, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * By the way, I started a discussion about boss damage over at User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Overpowered Skills/PvE and Monster. -- Gordon Ecker 04:09, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't say its overpowered at all. My PvE monk doesn't leave home without it. This skill is the only skill in the game that can stop the madness of a 600+ dmg from Invoke Lightning by a Margonite Anur Su. By far the best skill in the game. Nurf farmers yes, but not by nurfing this skill. --SK 08:45, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

This skill is one of the cornerstones of the game, I really don't see how or why you'd want to change it. Also, in case you haven't noticed, Anet doesn't need to nerf farming builds any more - they've already generally nerfed farming by implementing loot scaling and refusing to add an auction house. The combined effect of loot scale + no auction house is that yes, you can farm, but no, you can't make more than a reasonable amount of money in a given time (farm for X time, get some crap, shout for 20 * X time to sell your crap, the shouting time is a big part of the gold acquisition rate cap). The end result of loot scale is to supersede and render irrelevant any and all farming builds, thus any discussion of farming (or Prot spirit) is pointless, please end it and stop wasting Izzy's time. --Tankity tank 13:47, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill is not overpowered in the same manner in which Reversal of Fortune is not overpowered - yes, they're widely present on monk bars and monk secondaries throughout the game, but that's because they're the basic key skills for monks - PS is the defining damage mitigation skill, and RoF is the defining active response skill when it comes to support healing. [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 14:02, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Here's the PS nerf I wish I saw a year ago: add a damage minimum, like "This skill will not reduce damage below 20." Maybe that's not the best wording, but I hope you get what I mean: Prot Spirit will cap damage at (10% of your HP total or [some fixed number], whichever is higher) rather than just (10% of your HP total). This won't affect anyone that isn't running around with massively deflated HP. I don't think it matters much these days, but I do want to see that just for, well, completeness. ;) &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 07:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * In case I was not speaking english before, PROTECTIVE SPIRIT IS FINE AS IS. As a whole, these Overpowered/Underpowered skill pages are a joke 90% of the time. Protective Spirit? AXE MASTERY on the UNDERPOWERED list?  —ǥȓɩηɔɧ  〚 ₮ /ḉ〛 09:16, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Calm, please. Limiting (not even removing, just limiting) the "55 monk" corner-case back when it was first discovered by just setting a minimum would've saved the devs a lot of trouble tweaking zones, loot drops, &c. It's irrelevant now since they've done all that tweaking, but the fact that this big ol' loophole in the skill's mechanics still exists is, well, aesthetically displeasing. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 00:55, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Nerfing a gimmicky 55 build wouldn't do nearly as much good as people pretend it would - on the contrary, it would be incredibly detrimental to the game. First off, anet's farming code (even in HM) hurts solo farming enough, it's not like we need 55ing nerfed specifically - on top of that, any changes made to Prot Spirit would screw up PvP to no end. Don't fix what isn't broken. - Auron 01:14, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Proposing a skill change because it doesn't please one person aesthetically is arbitrary and probably not a good (read: bad) idea. This skill is one of the cornerstones of the game, you don't screw with these things just because you want to. --Tankity Tank 01:19, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Like I said, any nerf that doesn't change the way this skill works when you have more than 100 HP has no affect on PvP. Or on actual team-based PvE play, really. I agree that it's moot at this point, but I think it's an important lesson for GW2: all skills should have well-defined extrema (like the +armor stacking cap or the healing reduction stacking cap). &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 06:29, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Making it so it can't reduce damage to below 20 would be very good at fixing invinci-builds like the 55 and 135 derv, but would have little to no effect on anyone else. In order to trigger it you need to have far too many sup runes on you or a LOT of DP, but if it was from DP it wouldn't be very much of a difference at all --66.67.187.203 01:37, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * why nerf 55's? I mean seriously whats wrong with them? do they hurt anyone?! The anti-farming code and Loot-scaling stopped their over farming but the people that casual farm can still do it and why stop them? Personally i hardly ever farm and dont like it at all, and when i do (because i want more black dye or something) I'd just use a 600 over a 55 as they are so much safer. But you going to suggest that should be nerfed too?....my simple question is WHY? -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 04:56, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Your not gonna get an argument from here on this one, I think Prot Spirit is one of the most insane skills in GW, it breaks PvE all over the place does crazy stuff to PvP and is just super powerful. In the end thou the skill is the backbone to the balance of this game, without it the game would quickly become a damage race and I think PvP would suffer greatly from it, I'm not a huge fan of the fact the game is so balanced around this type of an effect but that something I'll keep in mind when moving forward with GW2. Until then this skill probably wont see any change. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:53, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think Prot Spirit is just fine in PvP. The biggest hits you're likely to see are around 140, probably 120-ish after armor. Those are very rare: Wearying Strike crits, 18-spec Rodgorts, 16-spec Orbs, and the like. Prot Spirit is an effective prot against this sort of thing, reducing damage by half-ish -- just like Guardian is effective against physicals, SoA is effective against small-packet damage, and so forth. Realistically a character with PS will wind up taking ~30% less damage from a team-wide focus-fest, once PS is one of the most balanced skills in PvP, in my opinion. In PvE it's ridiculous due to ~350 point boss hits, but the problem isn't PS -- it's the fact that PvE ramps up the difficulty by simply making the numbers bigger rather than adding organized, intelligent groups of mobs. Low-hp characters using Protective Spirit (55's and whatnot) are an anomaly that have no place in serious play, and don't appear in serious play because they're unable to contribute much to a team. If you want to close the loophole and add a "...to not less than 20 damage" clause, go for it -- it won't matter except on the poor bastard with 60% DP and a superior at VoD. But the core concept of PS is solid and well-balanced. --72.211.155.160 07:52, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Izzy. Prot Spirit is one of the skills that defines Guild Wars, perhaps the most defining of them all.  If you intended it to define the balance of the game, you've hit the nail on the head.  If you don't want a single defensive skill to determine how virtually every other offensive direct damage skill affects the balance of the game, I'd steer clear of PS for GW2.  [[Image:User GD Defender sig.png]]| GD Defender  /  contribs 08:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I personally think that this game is much more of a "damage race" because of PS. Most skills (exception would be the enchantment removal skills) can deal practically any amount of damage. Damage is to high? Just use PS. It basically is the lazy way out of balancing.

Yes, it's true PS is a very powerfull skill, but it also comes at a high price, it is not a skill the works well in partys or with others (rare cases where another build and this work in conjunction) it also has a high penility, where if you die while using it, you are back to square one. Everyother class can go solo farming, this is one of the few skills that allows a monk to solo. Every class has strengths and weaknesses, if you play to the strengths, the skills seem overpowered, but if reduced, then there are only average spells. In PvE this skill is a necessity (spell breaker enemys balanced it out nicly) In PVP, a build using this skill loses all effectiveness if you cut off their energy (even if that means not attacking them, and just hitting them with a hex) I love this game because it is all about skill, learning new ways to combine your 8 skills to create favorable condtions for you. Med Luvin 14:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * the only overpowered monk skill is rof, spamming rof is like godmode for every lvl 24+ monster 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Man I'm so sick of people who say "everyone who play pve MUST be stupid, myself and the other GvG players all know FAAAR more about the game and shutdown than they will ever know". There are bosses in some of the new gwen dungeons that can kill a caster class with their wand attack. There are bosses which can do AoE spikes in 1/4 second or shorter causing a near wipe to bunched henchmen. "Learn to bring a mesmer to shutdown" isn't a helpful suggestion at all. I think the point of this post was that the fact that this skill is almost always required shows how limited pve in gw is. I don't think anything can be done about this now but it's a good thing to keep in mind while designing GW2. 58.110.141.203 10:14, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I have to agree. It's far too late to do anything about Prot Spirit for PVE sakes now. They would have to rebalance a whole bunch of stuff. And for people saying mesmer shutdown, it doesn't matter how good you are at interrupting, that 1/2 second liquid flame for 300 is going to toast you regardless unless you are packing some %DR or Ritualist Spirits. BHA is reliable shutdown where manual interrupts fail due to incredibly stupid buffs AI gets. PS should be changed to how Spirit bond works IMO, lasts for 10 hits or 8 seconds or something for that matter. The only thing that would accomplish would be killing off 55 monks since 10 hits in PVE is all you need. GW PVE is pretty much done now with no more expansion packs, so I don't think anything really needs to be balanced there anyway.--Zarfol 05:45, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The insane damage of high lvl mobs breaks pve, not prot spirit. 87.189.245.129 13:44, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Pre-protting takes skill, so dont nerf prot spirit, in PvE most wammos run off b4 u can pre-prot anyway 24.141.45.72 15:18, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Izzy accepting an "insane skill" even though it affects PvP makes me wonder why they nerfed PvE skills (especially TNTF and SoL) into uselessness at all?

This skill puts every other comparable skill to shame. It's effect is powerful, its recharge is incredibly short and its cast time is crazy - this skill is at elite status - which is probably why we never saw an elite version of this skill. Something should be done to make this skill less viable to make other skills more viable. 58.110.139.72 23:08, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

How about we nerf armor, and remove monks from the game, and make Eles meleemancers! That is by far, one of the worst ideas I have heard. Readem  Hate Mail Goes Here  02:32, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * What about Mark of Protection? -- Gordon Ecker 02:49, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Which looks to be worse than RoF, especially that huge recharge... --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Hyper Cutter.
 * Agreed, but my point was that they did make an elite version of Reversal of Fortune. -- Gordon Ecker 04:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Mark seems more comparable to Shield of Absorption than RoF, to be honest: it makes a target "cold" and immune to raw damage (until it gets stripped) for a number of seconds. The problem is, no one will waste his elite slot for a skill that makes enemy melees switch target and then recharges for 45 seconds. --Akaraxle 10:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

The thing about RoF is that you can get lucky and have this hit with an Eviscerate, effectively preventing up to 160 damage, however, you can also get hit with a wand for 5 damage and effectively waste 5 energy and failure to prevent a spike.--Thelordofblah 01:01, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


 * RoF is almost as balanced as Frenzy tbh. Anyone can use it, but only the best can use it uber well. —ǥrɩɳsɧ  ƿoɲ  01:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Overused: Hell yes, overpowered: No. This skill is fine, it has been like this for years, no reason to call it overpowered all the sudden.--J0ttem™ 09:17, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Mark of Protection is similari to reversal but the recharge is what makes it useless, and the recharge of reversal is what makes it rediculous. The fact that Mark of Protection has so many negatives to counter the simple effect reversal has shows how powerful this skill is. Only one person who replied actually described why they think this skill isn't overpowered. No-one mentioned the crazy short cast time or the crazy short recharge. No-one thinks the fact that it's been on every monk build in PvP since the beginning of time is an indicator of its crazy power? It's too spammable and it's effect is too powerful to be used as often and as fast as it does get used, especially when you compare it to Orison. I am not saying Orison is underpowered (which it is - that isn't the point of this discussion) I am saying this is overpowered. 58.110.141.203 09:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Underpowred / Overpowered is all relative. Its a matter of balance within the game. In the case of RoF it is balanced against the pressure and damage that is dealt to teams. So does it look overpowered from the numbers...possibly....but look at in play, it's perfectly balanced. Try running a 2 monk backline with neither running RoF and you'll just crumble under pressure. It's balanced against the entire game. Leave it as it is. -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 15:26, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Running two monks without RoF on their bars would cause your team to crumbe not because this skill is so balanced but because none of the alternatives are balanced. It's rediculous you always have to run this skill on every bar. 58.110.136.200 12:25, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * HAnD runs Patient Spirit on their LoD and no RoF on their SoD and yet they don't crumble. RoF is certainly a good skill, but if you know what you are doing, you don't need it that much. Shendaar 18:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that [HAnD] always runs slightly odd builds. For example, they were using a healers boon monk when they got to rank 1, but every other guild was already running LoD. 69.40.249.50 00:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Rof is the base line of the whole game, this and Prot spirit are what make the monk backline work, these skills being so basic to the game will probably never be changed. ~Izzy @-&#39; 22:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree, RoF has been a backbone skill for years, not overpowered, not underpowered. Don't touch him :)  -Phoenix
 * So...rof is on the overpowered pages, but weapon of remedy and vengeful weapon aren't? You guys /fail at first grade math. Shard 09:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Because targeted effects are more useful than untargeted effects, and because Weapon of Remedy is a joke compared to many Monk elites. -- Gordon Ecker 10:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * vengeful and remedy only heal for that set 50-60ish amount. That's equal to rof going off at 30 damage or so.  It often goes off at 50-60 damage hits, and counting the prevention and the heal, it'll be equivilant to a 100-120 heal.  RoF is just a much stronger than either of those skills.  Pluto 23:29, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * RoF is a defensive skill whose power level is directly related to the other team's power level. This fact makes it balanced.  Leave it alone. Shard 06:14, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This is not an Overpowered Skill, it's alternatives arn't great.  A balance of underpowered skills would be a better idea first.  This is a utility skill, but it can't overcome other things like wasted energy protecting a wand/staff attack, or very heavy melee.-- People of Antioch   talk  ''[[Image:User People of Antioch sig.png]] 20:55, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

It's simple. This skill is on every protection bar. This skill is why protection monks are run instead of healing monks. This skill is one of the main sources of the problem. ZB monks run it, RC monks run, BL monks run it, heck the healing monks WANT to run it but can't. This skill was a bad idea, it should be changed to do something in a healing build, not act as a heal for prot - this is a core reason why the triple spec monks are as powerful as they are. Take away their easy heal. It heals for more than the BUFFED Glimmer of Light which is an elite! Protection monks shouldn't be able to easily access something as powerful as this. Monks don't need to run healing prayer like Glimmer or Word of Healing when they can spec into prot and chuck a few points into healing and bam! They have a non elite which heals more than an elite for the same cost but a little longer recharge. You could remove the "disables healing prayers" from this skill and it still would likely be used the same as it currently is. Dancing Gnome 12:57, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Take a look at the meta right now as of this skill balance. Two WoH monks and a HB flagger with Heal Party. RC, the only truly viable prot skill, is being abandoned in favor the massively buffed Healing Prayers. Also, look at the cast time and recharge of Glimmer. —ǥrɩɳsɧ  ƿoɲ  15:17, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's great isn't it? I was in observer and I didn't see any heal monks aside from a Glimmer prot monk. 58.110.139.185 07:38, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And it'll stay that way until healing is more efficient than prot. --71.208.133.30 10:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC) that's "never," in case you were wondering.

I think this skill should be changed so instead of disabling healing prayers, it disables protection prayers. 69.137.78.47 05:35, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The new glimmer and woh make this skill way less necessary. It's fine the way it is. Shard 09:48, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Wait. So the problem with this skill is that it was made to promote Healing Prayers in a Prot dominated game; and since it does that well, you guys wanna nerf it? RitualDoll 04:43, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * There is nothing wrong with this skill. 87.189.237.93 12:06, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep. You bring this If you're not running Cure Hex/Word of Healing/Glimmer of Light/Dwayna's Kiss/Etherela Light/Healer's Boon/Heal Other/Heal Party (i.e. not 14 healing prayers). Basically on a prot bar. Keep in mind this has 5 recharge and doesn't target self.--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 03:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

No one else will post this out of greed I'm sure so here it is. SB is back with a vengeance and needs some looking at. Anyone else notice the price of Onyx Gemstones continues to plummet? Couldn't possibly have anything to do with a certain 600 build in use to farm areas...nah. 67.191.245.177 18:08, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * How about make PvE mobs counter the build? This skill is very good the way it is as far as PvP goes. It would be very harmful to the game if it were nerfed any further. --TimeToGetIntense 05:39, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm all for it, SB is the one and only way this team build has to heal itself. Unfortunately it also uses Spellbreaker so common strips are out of the question.  Theres a bigger issue here...if they nerf Spirit Bond some other reversal skill will immediately rush in to take its place, RoF or maybe DI and nerfs to RoF are about as likely as meeting an extra terrestrial.  Just remember, any blanket changes to the area can potentially impact NORMAL runs in addition to the farmers.  Anyone who has ever done UW knows how easily Dying Nightmares can be countered...they are more of an aggrivation than a deterrent and I fear the same would happen elsewhere. 67.191.245.177 17:32, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Why do u whine? 24.141.45.72 15:20, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Spirit Bond was already nerfed in the past and got a "next 10 attacks or Spells" limit, any additional nerf would simply destroy it. 87.189.237.93 12:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Unregistered user
 * Unregistered user
 * Unregistered user
 * Unregistered user
 * I lol'd when I saw this and thought "One-time wiki pve players who don't know how balance works."
 * In game balance, you don't nerf things because they're used. You nerf why they're used. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 09:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Great that you buffed it, but you overdid it. It's basically usable as a non-elite SoD to get rid of pressure, now. Shorten the duration to 2..4..5 seconds or something, most people bring an enchant mod anyways. That, or increase the recharge. Saphatorael 09:46, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The cast time is a BIG difference. It is fine I believe. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 22:14, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Nothing wrong with this as it is. It's good active pre-prot that works well if used well, but pointless if used too late or badly. Leave it alone. -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 00:15, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
 * don't think the skill is overpowered i mean 50% blocking not like: oh my god i can't it you because you got a overpowered blocking skill but it is still a hell for a Assassin combo but ain't all blocking skills a hell for assassin combo's?. --Fox007  [[Image:User Fox007 sig.png|User:Fox007]] 16:07, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Guardian is fine. It's still a 1 second cast and has a relatively short duration.  Interrupt it. Shard 23:27, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree that this skill is somewhat overpowered; at least in the arenas. The main fault lies with the low recharge of 2 seconds, which makes enchantment removal almost pointless and allows Guardian to be consistently maintained on 2 players at any given time. If the recharge were increased to 4 or 5 seconds, it would make Monks think a little more before casting it.--Vaidin 23:30, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Guardian is not overpowered. If honestly anyone cares about the arenas, nerf Corrupt Enchantment and gayway-spike. -- Readem 23:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

guardian is far from being overpowered, it's the only way that the monks have to counter physical damage , or they use this or they use Aegis , wich is horrible on arenas--189.70.107.206 00:31, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

May be overpowered compared to other monk elites such as. Please review balance. 70.132.2.120 21:47, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

No, Healing Light is just bad. -- Readem 23:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe just almost all the other healing elites suck? Antiarchangel 02:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Healing Light is something that I always imagined Glimmering Light to be like. An elite that cost very little energy and heals for about 80~100. Word of Healing is ok. The stronger the elite is, the more that monks will rely on that single skill...and the more they become predictable...and vulnerable to humilities and price of failure. Lightblade 19:59, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Healing Light is underpowered... considering the only healing prayers non-maintained enchantments that last long enough to warrant energy gain are Dwayna's Sorrow (Crap), Vigorous Spirit, Healing breeze (crap), Spotless Mind/Spotless Soul (wow removal after seconds), Supportive Spirit (bad due to niche use), Restful breeze (conditional and cannot be used effectively in battle), and Healing seed (laughable recharge and cast time). --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 03:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * When was the last time any half-decent player didn't have protection prayers either? Aegis & friends say hello.  —ǥrɩɳsɧƴ ɖɩđđɭɘş  [[Image:User Grinshpon blinky cake.gif|19px]] 14:18, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

May be overpowered compared to other monk elites. Please review balance. 70.132.2.120 21:47, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Not really used, other than RA/TA. Even then WoH is better, unless you are only looking for bar-compaction. -- Readem 23:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Only place it's good is in close quarters, like the fights in HA with channeling. Otherwise outclassed by WoH. Antiarchangel 02:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Without Channeling this is just Orison with a little more HP and 1/4 cast that prevents ranger interrupts. It isn't overpowered due to how energy intensive it is. --Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 03:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

At this low healing and fast recharge this skill is just begging to be diverted. underpowered because it is soo easily shut down. price of pride can even shine in this situation lol.
 * price of pride is on 8 recharge and 2 cast. More universal counters like Signet of Humility/Shame/Mark of Subversion/Shroud of silence or even arcane languor *gasp* are better in that situation given it is hard to interrupt and 5 energy. If it wasn't on a 1/4 cast, Powerleak is much more effective (Power leech is good in theory against spam but not 1/4 second spam)...--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 21:37, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * This skill is only good in pve and random arenas. It sucks in high level play because of its easily exploited weaknesses.  Sig humility = they lost a monk.  Diversion = they lost a monk.  Price of Pride = they lost a monk.  If you don't use mesmers in gvg, d-shot it.  It's not hard to count a 1 second recharge. Shard 03:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's less efficient than Word of Healing, it's even less efficient than the non-elite Patient Spirit, the only advantage of this skil is speed. -- Gordon Ecker 05:25, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

May be overpowered compared to other monk elites like. Please review balance. 70.132.2.120 21:47, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Not overpowered. Don't fail. -- Readem 23:36, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe it's just that Martyr is underpowered. RC just happens to be one of the few viable prot elites. Antiarchangel 02:18, 15 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The other elites are underpowered, martyr??? I haven't seen that skill since 2006 when I capped it on my monk. Prokiller88 22:23, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Not overpowered, simply because it can't target self. And may I remind Readem: GWW:NPA Lightblade 19:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Echo Mending: May be overpowered compared to other skills. Please review balance. 87.189.228.125 11:48, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Kill this skill u guys are dull, use ur head this skill is just fine its one of the most popular GW skills simply because it is good compared to other skills with are UNDERPOWERED. Please boost other eliets in prot catagory so we could use them rather then stapeling this to every bar. DONT NERF> Kill this skill u guys are dull, use ur head this skill is just fine its one of the most popular GW skills simply because it is good compared to other skills with are UNDERPOWERED. Please boost other eliets in prot catagory so we could use them rather then stapeling this to every bar. DONT NERF>
 * Learn to spell, k thanks, bye.
 * ALthough this skill is good, it isn't overpowered. It's a defensive skill that only gets stronger as your opponents gain an advantage.  Against teams with few or no conditions, this skill is useless. If your GvG team doesn't bring interrupts or shutdown of any kind, you shouldn't be pvping. This skill is very counterable.  Teach your mesmer how to use diversion. Shard 03:46, 14 February 2008 (UTC)