Talk:Mirror of Ice

What
Not much of a "mirror" anymore, is it? Kirenne Starfire &#91;Kw&#93; 02:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Mirror's can be curved so that they magnify. I believe those really big and expensive telescopes in observatories use mirrors to look at stars, instead of lenses. StatMan 04:13, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Cold damage?
Does the damage from this skill constitute of cold damage? -- (CoRrRan / talk) 15:59, 22 April 2007 (EDT)

No, it's armor ignoring damage. --Nemeon Lion 21:05, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Just for people who may be reading the talk-page to figure out how this skill works, it is indeed both cold damage and armor-ignoring. So it will always deal the damage listed, however it will also fulfil the condition needed for skills such as Spinal Shivers to interrupt. 90.198.74.1 19:18, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

2 OF these...
I Wonder what would happen if 2 eles both had this on, and then one cast a spell on the other...would the damage just get lost somewhere!? It would seem to cause an endless loop which can't be good for GW. Maybe i should test, but i'm feeling lazy atm so if someone else tests let us all know =D -- ChronicinabilitY  00:16, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I doubt it will be an endless loop, we say both eles have this on and one of them cast ice spear, the one who cast ice spear will take damage from mirror of ice. Then as its an enchantment and not a spell the damage from this wont be negated and only one mirror of ice will trigger, the one on whos the target of the ice spear. --217.208.246.6 22:22, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Apparently not an endless loop.... it works on "the next spell" only --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:144.214.63.88 (talk).
 * An enchantment is a spell too...an enchantment spell. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:145.94.74.23 (talk).
 * Yep, but the damage trigger is controlled by the enchantment, not the player. In effect, the enchantment would take the damage. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:222.153.3.163 (talk).
 * if both had this enchant, one used ice spear, it would be deflected by the other. now the enchantment is removed on that person, it strike the other, and is mirrored to the prior....basically, if both had it on them, it would make no difference whatsoever. Nalana [[Image:User Nalana Darkling Blue Eye2.jpg|19px]] Talk  !

Reversal of Damage
Isn't reversal just disgustingly better than this - or almost on par? Prevents all damage AND ignores armour, oh they both ignore armour and the smiting one doesn't prevent all damage, but pretty close. Not to mention non elite, and shorter recharge. Please point out to me why this is elite with Reversal of Damage running around. Dancing Gnome 10:19, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Reversal could just trigger on any measly damage, and would only return it regardless of how big or small it is. Say an enemy hits you for a normal attack of 5 damage. Reversal would end and deal 5 damage to that enemy. Mirror of ice only triggers on spells, which are generally stronger than any general damage, and will deal the full amount. If they hit you with flare that only does 40 and your mirror is high enough, they could take back 80 damage. If it isn't higher than the damage you take, then it doesn't matter as it will be stopped anyways. Though I still don't sgree with mirror's elite status with it's current recharge...it is still better than reversal. Mirror allows for more protection in order to take it's effect (you can reduce damage freely without worrying about your damage being thrown off, such as reversal would if you were covered in prot enchants). If anyone wants to add onto or point me out as being wrong, feel free71.158.178.204 06:45, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Reversal frees up your elite slot, not a lot of people spam flare :P and it can be cast on someone else, allowing for protection. Mirror of Ice seems like it would only work on dumb players and PvE. Dancing Gnome 03:19, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I've always found this and the non-elite block skills (e.g. swirling aura) to be underpowered. The only advantage to this over Reversal of Damage is that it can be pre-cast (due to 60s duration).  The bad news?  It can only be cast on you, has a higher recharge, only affects damage spells (not hexes).  If this were targeted and you could protect a party with it before a fight or had a much faster recharge it might be elite-worthy, but not as is.  --Falseprophet 21:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The amount of damage that can be negated is limitless from a single spell. However, you wouldn't take this into organised pvp, because if you're worried about taking more than 100 damage in a single spell, then you're the problem. This isn't really elite worthy. You could block the damage from like, Power spike but you'd still get interrupted. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:222.153.3.163 (talk).

Pretty lame
Pretty lame considering it's only for one spell and has a 10-- §  Eloc   §  02:30, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Couldn't this be nice for a monk? just to negate hexes like Backfire and all.84.27.170.207 14:56, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * But this doesn't remove hexes. If they used it on Backfire, then there would still be the rest of the duration of Backfire left. &mdash;  ク  Eloc  貢  19:05, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * why would this ever work on backfire? none of these spells work on hexes ever --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:130.215.238.136 (talk).
 * Hex breaker tbh 69.40.243.42 02:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

This skill is very bad considering it only blocks one spell and has a ten second recast timer on it. What areanet should do is make it where it blocks the next 1,2,3 and than max out at four spells depending on how many points you allocate into water magic. In other words, this skill should be design as the anti-fire elementalist skill.Highway Man 03:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The 10 seconds recharge its bad but casting it prematurely is a way to ensure you can cast it again, like Hex Breaker(15 secs recharge), casting it before confronting a hex, is a good way to spam it at least once again, Hex Breaker is for hexes(against Me and N profession) and this one is for damage spells(mostly against an E profession), what I don't get is why this is elite. Hex Breaker deals damage and denies hexes, Mirror of Ice denies damage spells and deals damage too, its obvious that this would have dealt 70 damage since its an E job to do that, hexes are just as deadly as spike spells when both are left uncheck. Whats up with that?--ShadowFog 18:48, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * hmmm. Maybe you're supposed to use this skill 'while' you're getting your ass beaten up with a spike, lol. Oh wait, that's what interrupts are for. :S --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:222.153.3.163 (talk).

Change to 2 second recharge. Fixed. PvE tanking is the only viable use for it, as if people are going to waste their elite on this in any serious form of PvP... That, or the skill needs a complete rework. Saphatorael 16:38, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, 4 r. would be more reasonable. cant block EVERY spell. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Phill Gaston (talk).

related?
isn't this now kind of a conjure for water magic hexes? - Y0_ ich_halt  09:09, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That is a huge stretch. Then it would be viable to say every skill that increases damage is related to Conjure _____ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:Assassin-tango-icon-20.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 22:09, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Underwhelming
attack with your wand along with conjure frost while your long recharge water magic skills are recharging to out-damage this. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 22:46, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Someone clearly hasn't even bothered to create something built around this skill. Saphatorael 11:10, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Rustspike gogo 90 cold dmg --Anorith [[Image:User Anorith Grenths Grasp.jpg|19px]] Talk 11:35, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * it's 70 cold +35 armor ignoring dmg, but still. --Anorith [[Image:User Anorith Grenths Grasp.jpg|19px]] Talk 11:38, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Bad. Affects only 1 target. For example if I have this on and cast deep freeze on a group of 10 mobs, only 1 target takes +35 more damage (at 15 water magic) I could just forget this elite and wand the target twice to get 35 damage. Prolly one of the worst elites in GW. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Powercozmic (talk).

A extremely overlooked elite as we can see... it's definetly on my top 10 of elites, that's for sure. 58.179.75.158 06:50, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Combines Well With Shatterstone
Too bad you need a party and Arcane Mimicry to get it. Bisurge 19:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Still lame
This is still lame compared to other elites from all classes. Shattering Assault will just simply get rid of 2 enchantments (dual strike) and even a simple non elite like Strip Enchantment removes 2 enchantments. Spoil Victor is nasty. Migraine is a beast. Magebane Shot is one hell of an elite: 10 energy (5 for a Ranger), fraction cast time, interrupts every 5 seconds, disables spells and, AND, can't be blocked! JFC, what the hell are you guys thinking? Then you have the nerve of going in the opposite direction by making Mirror of Ice into what: an elite that is strippable without built in protection and deals what, 35 cold damage (which is mitigated by armor btw) with only water hexes. Is that some sort of joke? Why is it so hard to make good skills for the Ele class? Across 10 classes, you guys missed the train with the Ele yet you don't have problems making great skills for the other classes. Sorry, but this is not an elite skill. Your biggest clue should have been this question: "Which one of these two skills would I rather have stripped--Mirror of Ice or Water Attunement?" Hmm, which one indeed...75.178.43.66 02:56, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * At least it's not like Wastrel's Collapse, no? 157.193.59.32 12:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * ...Every enchantment has the chance to be stripped and interrupted.. And the cold damage isn't affected by armour.. I really don't get what your QQ'ing for :/--[[Image:Lava spider.jpg|19px]] Spider 00:28, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course every enchantment has a chance to be stripped and interrupted; but, that's my point. It's an elite skill that isn't worth a damn because the recharge is too long if it gets stripped and elemental damage is affected by armor. For an elite skill, it is crap compared to other elites from any line. If you think cold damage is not affected by armor then you need to learn the basics before you start posting. I'm going to interrupt you right there before you mention that it isn't affected by armor--that's because it is still bugged just like what Glimmering Mark was until they fixed it. If you don't understand why I posted this and why players QQ about certain skills, stay in school and take another course in comprehension before you post anywhere else.75.190.229.2 21:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Woah, 30 seconds recharge. Its better to cast this first just in case it gets ripped, high armor will mitigate the damage from water spells easily, if you want to pissed off a 100 armor(+20Armor: Sentinel's insignia) Warrior, a 90 armor Paragon(+10Armor: Centurion's Insignia), or a 110 Armor Ranger(+10Armor Scout's Insignia), you can... but since it STILLS IGNORES ARMOR you can deal that extra 35 damage to them. The bug its still in effect, take advantage now. I know what you mean, when it becomes fixed...I know...it will become useless, but for now, we can exploit that until it gets fixed or at least they should leave it with armor ignoring and change the text.--ShadowFog 23:50, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Why is this elite at all, it is already useless even now. 87.189.226.86 18:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

+35 damage on one target ? My wand does more damage
This extra damage affects only one target at whom the hex spell was targeted and not all targets the hex affects. If this is how the spell is intended to be, it is very, very lame. Pathetic +35 damage (15 water magic) on only one target for each water magic hex you cast sux bad because water magic hexes are not spammable (most "spammable" water magic hex is rust at 8 second recharge). The extra damage should affect all the targets affected by a water magic hex. Like this for example : Elite enchantment spell. For x seconds, all your water magic hexes do +x more damage. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Powercozmic (talk).
 * Blurred Vision, shard storm, freezing guts, rust + Mirror of Ice = (almost) spammable damaging snare + antimelee with cover. 79.186.135.75 16:24, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Freezing guts? Isn't that the necro elite that causes a lot of cold damage + weakness and deep wound?
 * Whoa, u found a typo, gz. Gust. 79.186.135.75 19:35, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Icy Veins is the name, necros can't inflict Deep Wound except by transfering it.. And skill related, your wand does maybe 10 damage per wanding. +35 per spell you cast is quite significant. If you cast 3 spells it's already more damage than many other elites.. Think of it in the long run. And this also excels at spikes.. -- -Ch  ao  s-   19:55, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Still armor ignoring?
That is the question, is it still ignoring armor? Because it is not noted in the main page of the skill. It would be cool if it still does, oh like a certain skill could, like poor --Wealedout 03:33, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

nerf pls
please nerf this gaylord overpowered skill. all the gvg noobs are running it against honest players running balanced. The larry 18:15, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Welcome to Guild Wars.
 * If you have a suggestion for how to balance the skill, you can open a thread over at the skill feedback page. - Auron 18:22, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * k The larry 19:05, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

It's only an enchantment, remove such things =]
 * Mirror of Disenchantment > You --86.128.74.31 13:57, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * This skill needs a rework. It's overpowered against bad players, they don't have enchant removal in their team and they get spiked. It's UNDERPOWERED against good players, enchant eating skills says O HAI. It's underpowered everywhere in PvE, the damage is laughable. It just rewards bad gimmicky spikes and needs to be reworked.

Shard Storm
I noticed that although shard storm is a water hex. The damage from Mirror of Ice is not applied when shard storm hits. Should that be in notes?
 * The damage is applied when you cast it. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  07:54, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * This functionality is no different from effects like Glyph of Immolation, which inflicts burning as soon as a projectile spell is cast, and not when it strikes. MA Anathe 00:03, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Enjoy your nerf!
another skill takes the plunge...
 * Why can't they properly balance the skills? I hate how they're putting more and more secondairy profession limitations. It's killing the original concept.  SniperFox [[Image:User_SniperFox_IconSmall.gif]] 23:40, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe that is the future of Guild Wars, no secondary professions. But of course they can't remove them from GW1. 71.161.204.237 23:45, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

That's Anet taking the easy road. This skill is just really really meh. Xhata 09:30, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

It's still easily maintainable..what's the problem? I assume this was to stop mesmers from using it? 76.84.34.210 14:18, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * People have a problem with that for some reason. Misery  14:22, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I would be fine with an elite restriction to only use with your primary profession... serious... MrPaladin talk 14:30, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * They would need to do some major adjustments to some classes before that would be viable, example: Ritualists. That being said E/Rts are better than Rt/any atm anyway in most cases. Misery  14:33, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I just like it how ANET changes the complete funcitonality of a useless skill to something new, which then gets implemented into the main stream Meta, only to be completely nerfed out of the game... Was the skill abused? No, it was being used as it was intended, a damage buffer for all the low damage Water Magic skills. The only issue was the FC Mesmers using the skills... so once again, Mesmers must be single prefession with a part time FC Rez because the skills on the bar can't interact with other profession skills or they get disabled... - SabreWolf 15:49, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You don't consider a team of 5 Me/E water mesmers with three monks an abuse? Out of interest, what do you have to do to abuse a skill? Misery  15:52, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Any Gimmick-way is abuse in that sense so /agree, however the abuse was/is from the Fast Casting from the Mesmer line and not from the skill itself, so does that mean Fast Casting should be the nerfed target? The point I am trying to get at is that ANET changed the skill to make it useful, then nerfed the heck out of it when it was used for its intended purpose.  If they are going to make a skill change, they should test the skill and check for its interaction with other skills... and if they do test the skills, maybe they should find new testers.  Because if a skill that is changed gets completely nerfed within a year after its implamentation, someone didn't think things through. I am not trying to bash someone, but its just backwords thinking to let the public test and abuse skills for you outside of Alpha/Beta.  Then again, that would be more minds thinking for you and free labor, so I guess its better for ANET that way :-p. - SabreWolf 18:23, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Did the damage get added to AoE skills beforehand? I'm sure it did... if they had left that aspect the same it would have been fine. Few test runs to see if'n it will still be on my bar. Aro 20:59, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No, it didn't. It has always only ever affected the target on the initial casting. Besides, I don't mind this change, I've always used this on my ele in JQ. King Neoterikos 08:57, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Tbh, they should experiment with a new pvp gamemode limiting the amount of people per class in matches. That'd be interesting --  euphoracle  |  talk  17:57, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Waaaaaaaaaaah, WAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH, Anet is changing how the game is played, and I'm too incompetent to adapt and change with them. Why!? Why must you force me to think for myself from time to time? Its not fair! You don't know how to do your job! I'm planning on taking a computer science class when I get out of high school, I think I should know these things better than you!

Really, get over it. They changed a skill, and not even all that dramatically. You can't fast cast with it now? Lord above! Don't use it! Find something else to use. When that gets changed, cry about it, and I'll help set you straight again. The cycle will perpetuate. FleshAndFaith 23:03, 11 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The problem is not that he is too incompetent to adjust. The problem is that the skils aere changed to reward and make comfortable those who are incompetent and done so without regard for those who are competent. Read it again you'll understand what he is saying.75.142.136.4 20:13, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

"Maybe that is the future of Guild Wars, no secondary professions. But of course they can't remove them from GW1." - 71.161.204.237 23:45, 14 May 2009 (UTC) That made me laugh. It's completely true. Lolwho 07:33, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

As a Primary Ele this skill is no longer worth taking to me.
We already have ton's of high energy cost skills, this skill actually helped in water nuking quite a bit, but now with such a high energy cost it's really not worth having it on my bar. I don't know why this was slated for changing but I know it will go to my list of rarely used skills which seems to be mysteriously growing. Wynterarwynrose 00:31, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Pump up energy storage to 16 and you'll have this enchantment up for 53 seconds. You can absorb the 15 energy by casting this before battle.  If you're worried about it being removed during battle, cover it.  Otherwise, just keep nuking.  I'm a primary ele too and while this is a little inconvenient, I don't think it is going to nerf my water build.  It's just going to make me work harder.  Beregond 16:33, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * That might work in PVP but for PVE it's no longer a skill worth adding to the bar, nobody in PVE puts energy storage up to 16. Wynterarwynrose 01:38, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * And you would put ES up to 16 in PvP? PvE is the only place where you would ever want to. This is much less useful in PvP due to the casting time, making it prone to interruption. -~=Ϛρѧякγ  User Sparky, the Tainted charr sig.PNG  (τѧιк)  02:43, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

May 21st update
Ok... so they change the duration... I don't think that was a problem to begin with.  Eive_Windgrace 23:41, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No, the problem is that it's a skill that adds a lot of damage to a utility line. They'll never figure that out though. -- Tha Reckoning 23:48, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You're both wrong. The problem was Fast Casting spikes. Hence why the duration doesn't require a rank in Energy Storage after the FC nerf. Though, obviously, the FC spike had access to snares and Blurred Vision. -~=Ϛρѧякγ  User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png  (τѧιк)  00:40, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I still don't agree with being able to carry utility and damage, but apparently that's where they're going, with all this mesmer bullshit. -- Tha Reckoning 00:42, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Energy denial isn't utility. it's just energy denial. Utility is like interrupts, knockdowns, snares and skills that are useful in a variety of situations. Gale is utility, rip enchantment is utility, distracting shot is utility, cripping shot is utility. Mind wrack and overload are not utility. I hate it when people misuse that term 67.82.179.27 03:52, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * So you're saying that the mesmer update did not include any interrupts, knockdowns, or snares? [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 03:57, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * And also, so making the enemy caster not able to cast (edenial), is nothing like making the enemy meele not able to meele(snare). Yeah, logic is win. Edenial is utility. Sonic Wednesday User Da Sonic Sig2.png 03:59, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * By the same logic, damage is also utility, since a dead caster cannot cast. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 04:02, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It's still solely a gimmick skill, but it can no longer be used to instagib. That was the point of the update. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 04:16, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Making stuff have zero energy is useful in a variety of situations, imo. Also, what felix said (in his first comment, the second one being facetious). -- <font color="Black">Tha Reckoning 04:56, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Why don't you all just define what you think utility is, since that's what ppl are really arguing about. Your all right given your own definitions.  Reckoning I see you hate the majority of attack skills given your definition.  IP, is shut down utility? Is E-Denial a form of shutdown?  Sonic, some good logic, but Pacifism is making someone not melee.  You can swing away regardless of a 90% snare being on you. Same with blind. Same for block. Felix brilliant.  Shard I present Crippling Shot builds as the inverse gimmick of Mirror of Ice builds. Net effects, damn near the same thing (minor differences). Major difference? One is accepted by the group think majority, the other is not. Point? Simple, MoI is not breaking or going to break the game as is.  If anyone doesn't like it for now, tough. Stick with suggesting why it's bad instead of turning around and bitching everytime ANet updates and maintains their old game.  Vent done, peace out.  Hi and bye. <font color="#C71585" size="2px">~>Sins <font color="#CA1F7B" size="2px"> WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 07:52, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You seem to be confusing a few things. Crippling Shot bars don't have proper damage dealing capabilities. The equilevant of Mirror of Ice you're looking for is Glass Arrows. And then it all gets much easier: Glass Arrows is a skill that dumbs down the gameplay of a Ranger and is therefore broken. Mirror of Ice is much the same: it limits the user's skill bar to one attribute, reduces complexity by taking the place of another potentially more interesting elite and promotes 321spike gameplay. That's a flawed function. Morphy 10:48, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Ranger's dont deal proper damage with crip shot as their elite is the main argument as I understand it. I present apply poison and any quick activating attack skill. I feel like spreading 10-13 seconds of Poison and maintaining that on 3-4 enemies is a lot of damage. Maybe some people don't think 240-400 degen damage over 10-13 seconds is a lot, but I'm the type of person who does. I am ignoring Glass Arrows in your post, bcs I used the word "inverse" for a reason and am not talking about that skill at all.  Activation frequency of crip shot and MoI and effects of crip shot and MoI are polar opposites in comparing the builds. I also clearly mention it's the net effects of the builds that are nearly the same.  The biggest differences are that the crip shot ranger has spread damage (instead of direct) and a little more utility (interrupts).<font color="#C71585" size="2px">~>Sins <font color="#CA1F7B" size="2px"> WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 09:36, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

From what I understood of your post, your logic goes something like this: It simply doesn't work like that. You don't take into account playstyles and the impact these builds actually have on the gameplay.
 * Mirror of Ice and Crippling Shot builds both feature damage and snares of sorts.
 * The overall inflicted damage and snares are roughly equal for both builds.
 * Therefore, the builds are balanced relatively to one another and you should all just shut your piehole lulz.

Suppose Elementalists had a skill that dealt 300 damage in a single blow and had other than that only skills that deal sub-50 damage and suppose that this would result in an overall DPS that's equal to that of a Warrior, would you consider those balanced to one another? You shouldn't. The Elementalist skill would lead to gimmicks using said skill to 2 man spike stuff. I know this is an extreme example, but it does illustrate this: If two skills have the same net effect, it doesn't say anything whatsoever about the balance between those two skills. It's simply a dumb, flawed analogy and you should be ashamed for trying to use it. Morphy 14:58, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and to answer your question (and I quote the wiki): "Utility is used to describe skills and players whose purpose is to provide various functionalities." Morphy 15:08, 5 June 2010 (UTC)


 * "The overall inflicted damage and snares are roughly equal for both builds." You must be bored if you are trying to argue a=b and b=c yet a!=c. Unless you have a different point to make, such as the ele's packet damage is too high against low armor professions there is nothing to discuss. Ultimately everything has it's importance and to not consider everything is the flaw you are making. You are claiming the end game result is to be overlooked "If two skills have the same net effect, it doesn't say anything whatsoever about the balance between those two skills." Yes it does and all things considered, playing a MoI ele is simpler than playing Crip Shot, but then again dealing with a MoI ele is a heluva lot easier too, just ask anyone who is in charge of dealing with prots.


 * My point is again that MoI is not breaking anything as is, in fact if you were to try to abuse MoI it would just as effective to use shatterstone even with it's 2 second cast. In the end the net result is what is the most important, everything in between determines what the end result is. When it comes down to it though, net health loss per second imposed on the opposition is what everything revolves around in the game.  That's all the game is.  How fast can we drop the red bars of the other team.  Damage, positioning, and utility all play their role and have their importance.  However, the thing that everyone cares about most is the dropping of those red bars. it's easy to see you are overlooking the tradeoff between some damage for utility, which even's out a MoI and Crip shot ranger.


 * As I said the major differences are the adjustments of direct damage to spread damage with extra utility. There is no breach in damage threshold by the amount of damage MoI adds.  It's not an extreme amount of damage in a spike, it's more like protector's strike on a hammer bar adding 66 in a reasonable window.  So instead of making things up that wouldn't make any sense as means to try and validate your points, why not go with what exists?  That only makes sense to me, but that is rather difficult to do when there's no major issue. isn't it?  After all comparing + 20 from all attacks to + 33 from a water hex and then "defuse" health were your counter examples to me comparing and contrasting MoI and Crip shot builds, builds which I point out are incredibly similar yet vary.  I have yet to see a worthwhile reply to my points, the closest you've come is... you actually haven't given a decent reply to my point, but I gave you one to go off of. <font color="#C71585" size="2px">~>Sins <font color="#CA1F7B" size="2px"> WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 09:12, 7 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Sins, Sins, Sins. Do you really want to be dragged in this discussion? Didn't you like your dormant state? I have no problem with it, I like a good discussion, but if you're going to continue here, you have to finish this discussion and not bail out like you did when we discussed Primal Rage. Are you prepared to do that? If not, you should stop right here.
 * First of all, balance is a negative. You can't prove that something is balanced, you can only debunk logic that tries to prove something is imbalanced. Your part in this discussion is therefore to prove my arguments wrong instead of you trying to prove Mirror of Ice IS balanced.
 * If we take a look at your counter-argument, it's basically a refutation of the argument "This build deals more damage over the entire game and snares more opponents than that other one.". Besides it being extremely hard to prove this (you'd have to have access to quite a bit of statistics), this is actually a really weak argument for imbalance because (as I've said before) it doesn't tell you anything about the nature of the inflicted damage and therefore nothing about the gameplay value. Trying to use a refutation of a weak argument as an argument for balance borders insanity. At best it can be used to make it plausible (not logic proof) that it isn't imbalanced by power, which I don't believe anyone is claiming. I should note here, what I'm trying to argue is that "a and b therefore c" doesn't apply, not the thing you're talking about.
 * Concerning Shitterstone, lol. At least Shard Storm doesn't give your spike away. Shatterstone can only be used to spike, Shard Storm can also be used to snare (fyi, Shard Storm -> Freezing Gust is the standard spike sequence). I'll give you this, though. If someone tried to argue that Mirror of Ice is overpowered and he'd use the opposite of your argument, you could probably debunk that with your little statistics.
 * Now that that's out of the way, let's take a look at the many ways to prove that something is imbalanced or even broken. The principle of inferior gameplay value is one of those. You may want to check it out on my page. And there we have it: this principle applies to the build. You have admitted yourself that the Mirror of Ice build has a lower gameplay complexity than the Cripshot build, both on the receiving and the applying end. After all, it requires less skill for both sides to stop/inflict the incoming damage and also less skill to remove/apply the Snares. That alone is enough to proof that the Mirror of Ice build is broken relatively to the Cripshot build, in other words, proof enough that Mirror of Ice itself is broken.
 * But why stop there? On the level of Water Magic builds themselves, Mirror of Ice also reduces gameplay complexity. The only thing the skill does in terms of gameplay value is promoting a spike meta, it REDUCES it. Other elites, such as Mind Freeze (the user has to consider the trade-off having someone move extremely slow versus Exhaustion, which could have a negative impact on the long run) and Water Trident (as it's a projectile, it can be dodged. It's also predictable in nature much like Bull's Strike, enabling mind games) effectively increase the gameplay quality. Mirror of Ice is also broken in comparison to those skills. Can we conclude anything else than that Mirror of Ice is broken? Again, you should take a look at my "fundaments of balance" page. It probably clarifies many of the terms I used on this page. Morphy 16:44, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I do enjoy my hibernation, so let me clarify something. My main point was that MoI isn't breaking the game, I also pointed out similarities+differences to CripShot.  The closest to broke it gets is adding ~66 damage to a spike, which you indicate by addressing the storm>gust chain.  It is high damage that isn't sustainable, it's a spike. The storm telegraphs a follow up gust leaving fair room to counter it (similar to Shatterstone), in addition to it being a dodgable projectile.  That is the closest to broke as it gets.  MoI simply adds a small punch to spreading snares or blurred vision (kind of like DoT from spreading poison).  Additionally while using a MoI build is simpler than a cripshot build, it's also very simple to minimize MoI's effectiveness; a tradeoff that must be considered.  When looking at what makes the damage of MoI builds high for spiking we can narrow it down to a skill in particular.  That is Freezing Gust, you throw that on top of blurred vision, Shard Storm, or some other water magic hex, and that is the skill that you will find causing the most issues.  fGust itself is a trade off skill and it should not get a damage bonus when no hex is applied, at least based on my reading of MoI and fGust's skill description. So Morphy, since I am gathering your major concern about MoI builds is the spike potential of Storm>Gust why are you so concerned about MoI? It seems to be the extra damage that it adds to that spike.  You have a distaste for spike meta's and you see that this is a promotions to that play style.  Yet the biggest problem you have is a skill that has little to do with MoI and what it does have to do with the skill I would consider a bug, bcs Freezing Gust isn't a hex vs foe's under a water magic hex.  So at this point, you are arguing over 1 of three numbers in one chain situation.  Those numbers are 0, MoI's attribute damage, or MoI's attribute damage x2.  I'll make like an elder dragon, however I will finish this discussion.<font color="#C71585" size="2px">~>Sins <font color="#CA1F7B" size="2px"> WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 21:35, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Eh, sorry for late reaction. You have an interesting view on this problem (although I wouldn't consider the Freezing Gust thing a bug), but I'm afraid I can't quite agree with you. Suppose Freezing Gust wasn't affected by Mirror of Ice. Then MoI would still push Shard Storm into full spike support regions (~100 damage, usually 2 second cast time skills), a skill which spike use can't be easily distinguished from its snare use. It would still promote spike metas. Mirror of Ice is pretty binary: either it's viable, in which case it promotes a spike meta, or it's not. And what about my other arguments? Mirror of Ice limits Water Magic builds to 1 attribute and takes the place of a more interesting elite, while not adding complexity (even decreasing it). Morphy 15:28, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Bug or Anomaly?
With all the nerfs and buffs and what have you, wouldn't they have picked up by now that the cold damage is armour ignoring? 90.198.74.1 19:16, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I've reported it at Feedback:Bug reports/Skill bugs, but haven't received a response. --Silver Edge 20:36, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Desperately needs a buff: opening this section for ideas:
Water Magic, much like Air Magic, suffers from A-net neglect. Although Air Magic is supposed to be the best at spiking one target, I often find that Fire Magic is better at that too. Water Magic is supposed to be good at making the enemy move slowly, but the longest AoE snare is only about 10 seconds and non maintainable. 66% is also not freaking amazing at holding an enemy down, especially with anti-hex running around even among random monster mobs.

ANYWAYS back to Mirror of Ice. I wouldn't use this skill if it were non elite. This skill is a perfect example of how badly Water Magic and Air Magic need buffs (like a monster update much like the recent mesmer skill one and the rit spirit time curve, but Mirror of Ice could be a good start).

Add your ideas to this with the corresponding number that comes after the one I left please (the first one would start at 5):


 * 1: Give it AoE and increase damage. Simple fix to make snares slightly more deadly.
 * 2: Have it MAGNIFY your snare DURATIONS (Elite Enchantment Spell: While you are enchanted with Mirror of Ice (10 seconds plus 2 for every rank you have attained in Energy Storage), your water magic hexes that slow opponents last 1, 10, 20 seconds longer).
 * 3: Have it MAGNIFY your snare INTENSITY (Elite Enchantment Spell: While you are enchanted with Mirror of Ice (10 seconds plus 2 for every rank you have attained in Energy Storage), your water magic hexes that slow opponents slow them by an extra 6%, 15%, 24%).
 * 4: Have it REFLECT elemental damage (although you still take some damage) (Elite Enchantment Spell: For 10 seconds plus 2 for every rank in energy you have attained in energy storage, any opponent who damages you with elemental damage takes 50%, 10%, 150% of the damage back and you only take 100%, 75%, 50% of the damage).


 * I read that and thought you were joking until I noticed that you are PvE. Tote an imbagon, it won't matter what you bring. <font color="#0AA">-~=Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png <font color="#0AA">(τѧιк)  04:37, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Anet cannot take your ideas from this page. Please take a look at using the Feedback:Main option. G R E E N E R  04:46, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
 * True, but maybe they could make a PvE version that compared to any other given elite skill, and then make a PvP version to balance it against other players.... Naw, they've never done that with any other skill and it probably wouldn't work this time either.

So they came back to this again to justify the nerfbat
And yet, I STILL can't shake the feeling that this was ALWAYS rubbish, and STILL IS. I COULD consider mirror if it wasn't elite, but seriously.... "adds crap damage to non-spammable skills" REALLY doesn't come across as justifying the brutal murder of Fast Casting a while back and now a personal nerf increasing recharge? CERTAINLY, there's other places these people could look into and actually make changes for skills that COULD use some changes instead of...this - VileLasagna 18:25, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Spike. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  20:24, 13 Nov 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm aware of the theory behind this but... seriously. Besides, I can't understand how come Mirror is more potent/dangerous/relevant to a spike than, say, Shatterstone - VileLasagna 16:51, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It adds extra damage to snares that can also be used on spikes. Really. -- User Oneshot O.JPG ne shot.   17:10, 14 November 2010.
 * Or just because almost all top guild elementalists use it.
 * It's some tight crap, it even penetrates armor :S - J.P.[[Image:User J.P. sigicon.png| ]] Talk </b> 17:24, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Shatterstone: 100 spike damage, 100 damage that prot eats up, does not snare, 2s cast time, instant proc.
 * Shard Storm under Mirror of Ice: 120 spike damage, 0 random excess damage, snares, 1s cast time, delayed proc (aids damage compression).
 * Derp. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  0:57, 16 Nov 2010 (UTC)
 * Shard Storm is a projectile, though. I know there's related skills, just putting it out there Harrier C. Goodman talk 22:09, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It's a better spike skill because it's a projectile. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  0:51, 25 Nov 2010 (UTC)

Huge fan of the very very early form of this skill wish they would change it back Cactus 07:03, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

This+Soul barbs
shard storm>freezing gust>rust=dead. I always use this an soul barbs in RA. 76.164.71.53 04:33, 29 June 2011 (UTC)