Talk:Religions of Tyria

Asura and norn deserve a section
If the charr and dwarves got their section here that links to other articles about their religions, the norn and asura deserve the same. Just a mention of their religious systems is not enough. I'd write it myself, but I don't want to mess with the article too much if it's to be featured. RazoR 39999 01:54, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * See Eternal Alchemy and Spirits of the Wild (and Sky Above the Sky for tengu). Charr and dwarf religions don't have overall articles. The only one that does that has a section here is the Gods of Tyria. Spirits of the Wild is linked in a see also section, all three are in the template, and Eternal Alchemy and Sky Above the Sky are mentioned in the Afterlives section. Furthermore, Eternal Alchemy is a small article itself and if it got a section, there wouldn't be much need for the article of it, but yet due to the trivia and GW2Wiki link, Eternal Alchemy greatly benefits from its own article. -- Konig / talk 01:58, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Ye true when it comes to Eternal Alchemy, although the Spirits of the Wild is a pretty big article, so a small blurb about it wouldn't hurt here. It's not as extensive as Gods of Tyria, but pretty big. And the norn overall are more into religion than some of the others, plus they're to be a player race in GW2. Feels strange that they're not mentioned more. RazoR 39999 02:04, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Would definably be worth mentioning if we knew more about their faith. But all we know is that they revere some unknown amount of spirits, and we know minimal information on a handful of them. -- Konig / talk 02:08, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Just copying, or slightly modifying the intro sentence of the spirits of the wild article and naming their more prominent spirits plus saying that there are malevolent spirits would probably be a pretty decent amount of info for a summary article such as this one. RazoR 39999 02:16, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Added a section, hope that works. -- Konig / talk 02:58, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Cool. On a side, and this has nothing to do with this article, but with the template at the bottom, why isn't Goddess of Truth bumped up into the same row with the other 5? Being down there with Dhuum and Abaddon makes her seem as one of the gods that aren't part of the official pantheon any longer. Is it just because we don't know if paragon is an appropriate profession sign for her after ascension? Also, we do know that Dhuum is a Dervish, and Abaddon an ele. RazoR 39999 12:27, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Spoiler reasons, mainly. And that she's not always a god. There was a long discussion on the template's talk page. As for the profession signs... I really disagree with them as a whole, because nothing says that the gods share the profession of their patronage. Dhuum's a dervish, but that profession didn't exist when he was a god of the pantheon, for instance. -- Konig / talk 03:39, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I went ahead and added an section ffor the Eternal Alchemy. One thing I'm not sure about is a line where Vekk says, "[Gadd's] ashes return to the universe, but his knowledge remains with us." This seems to imply a philosophy regarding the soul though I'm not sure what to make of it. It might also be a statement of what Gadd contributed to Tthe religion of the Eternal Alchemy and a statement of respect regarding his achievents. Possibly part of the burial ritual? --Shai Halud 00:21, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Went and did some edits to your addition. Firstly, for consistency, I removed the relations of reality (comments of doaism mainly). The idea of facets has been confirmed to not be related to the gods or the Facets, it's a use of the word in its actual meaning - a piece or aspect of something. The comment of facets having power over life is incorrect (the term of facet only having been used with the Eternal Alchemy was by Ree Soesbee when saying that Vekk became a facet of the Eternal Alchemy when he died), so I removed that. There are a lot of "it seems" and "which implies" - speculation shouldn't be up on the wiki, so removing a bit of that. I removed the line about it not being cleared how many asura follow the Eternal Alchemy as almost every asura believes in this (it is a race-shared faith). Also removed the bit of Eternal Alchemy in the afterlives section. -- Konig / talk 00:58, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

The Charr's gods
I changed the beginning of the third sentence from "200" to "Two hundred." Reason: Correction of basic English language sentence structure. Explanation: If a sentences begins with a number, the number beginning the sentence is spelled out with letters. Sentences do not begin with numerals. Si lm al el   13:45, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Underworld for the humans
Reading the bit about Canthans feeling that Undeworld is a place very much like Hell, where they go with dishonor for a life full of sins, I started wondering about the creatures that actually do go to the Underworld when they die. Well, humans.

Cause the 6 gods are human gods.

So... where do the Asura go? The Charr?

Thinking of the creatures that worship the 5 gods, we have, mainly, the Humans and the Forgotten. So... where are the Forgotten in the Underworld? Don't they get to go there? Is the Underworld truly a Hell-like place, and is Dwayna's realm a heaven-like place? -- Large 13:58, 24 November 2010 (UTC) seemed to me to imply that the forgotten were dead, since the charr are/seem to be dead. Banished Dream Riders are spirits - not only is their creature type "ghost" but if you listen to the Reaper of the Chaos Plains, that area is where those without valor or redemption appear there (and there's only 3 kinds of ghosts that appear there, dream riders being the most common), and those dream riders are even there when the Reapers have control of the Underworld. -- Konig / talk 02:15, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The realms of the gods are not limited to humans. -- Konig / talk 18:37, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok. So most Forgotten went to the Realm of Torment, and some Charr did. But the Underworld is home to humans only, right? (Except for the enemies, of course.) --[[Image:User Large sig.png|talk]] Large 23:52, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Firstly, nothing says those forgotten in the Realm of Torment are dead - they're wardens, not prisoners. Secondly, I was saying that none of the afterlives seem to be for a single race. Nightmares, one of the most common kind of creature in the Underworld, are spirits themselves (they include minotaur-like, drake-like, lizard-like, human-like, and unknown kinds of spirits). As are smites, and the Banished Dream Riders have horse spirits... I would not say that the Underworld is solely for humans. Remember, we don't see all of the Underworld as well. -- Konig / talk 00:06, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Considering what we know, it might be better to think of the underworld as part of Tyria rather than as pat of the human religion. It is clear other reasoning beings have souls and go there when they die. Just like the six gods undeniably exist, so too does the underworld exist for all races, but their beliefs regarding it may differ (they may even not believe in it though this does not prevent them from going there). --Shai Halud 00:52, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I never said the Forgotten were dead, I said they went to the Realm. Also, I did say that the enemies were not human. Additionally, I don't think the Banished Dream Riders are spirits mounting horse spirits; to me, they seem to be just demons of some sort, more like, evil essences that "materialized" in that form (As well as the rest of the enemies). Now, does that follow lore? I don't know, I have not checked the Riders page. Maybe you can tell me. --[[Image:User Large sig.png|talk]] Large 02:04, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * @Shai: The Underworld is not a part of Tyria, but rather is in The Mists (possibly the Rift).
 * @Large: Sorry, "went to the Realm of Torment, and some Charr did"

Worship vs. Reverence
I know the lore has made a distinction in the past between "worship" and "reverence", saying the norn abstain from the former in favor of the latter, but do we really have to indulge them in this? It seems ridiculousness to me. The Norn reverence seems to involve building altars, reciting tales, invoking names and spirits, making blessings, performing rituals, and possibly even saying prayers and making sacrifices. Can't we just say they worship the spirits or at least point out that their "reverence" does not seem significantly different from human practices of "worship". I mean, what is the difference? Are we really justified in saying the Norn do not practice worship? *(this has always irritated me) --Shai Halud 01:22, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It's less of reverence, and more of respect, actually. The norn respect the spirits' strength, and borrow from their power. Nothing says they have rituals (the closest you can call to being a ritual would be calling the spirit itself - something no different than what ritualists do in their binding rituals, say prayers, or make sacrifices (outside of hunting in honor of the spirits), and reciting tales is no different from any heroic being. I don't get what you mean by "invoking names and spirits" (how would you invoke a spirit of a spirit?). There's a drastic difference, because they do not view the Spirits of the Wild to be all powerful beings who have greatly significant roles in the universe (like how people tend to view deities). Rather, they merely respect/revere their strength. This is the reason why the gw2:Sons of Svanir have split from other norn. -- Konig / talk 01:47, 25 November 2010 (UTC)