User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Izzy Talk Archive 7

Links to good feedback
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10207696

On the same topic as the one linked above, this post also has some interesting ideas - it's basically a continuation of the one above, but with more ideas on how to improve things. Erasculio 12:23, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Healer's Boon / Healing Ribbon bug
Healer's Boon has no effect on Healing Ribbon. -- Gordon Ecker 09:06, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Cure Hex has the same problem. Coran Ironclaw 06:52, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Eye of the North is pathetic for all the bugs in all of the skills. And how long has it been since something was done about any skill in the game? PvE farming nerfs seem on the ball, same with a lot of quest bugs etc, it's the skill balancers which don't appear to be doing a lot.... if anything. A problem like this would appear to be an easy fix yet it's been widely known for weeks now with nothing done about it. 58.110.141.174 14:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I've been working on this I didn't get it in for this update but if I do another update during the week I'll include it. ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:07, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Forget something? Pluto 07:31, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I wasn't able to update it easily because of some other bugs :( so I'll have to include it in a normal cycle of balance changes, Healer's boon works in a very odd way so you practically have to hand hook up each skill to work with it thus the source of all the problems. ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:04, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Cool. I'll look forward to it.  Pluto 21:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Where is the enormous skill update for EotN?
NF had one... Why doesn't EotN get one? Is the gudness of EotN pve supposed to make up for it? --Edru viransu 23:51, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I was hoping for something too.--Atlas Oranos 01:00, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * We had one...granted it was quite a crappy one, and half the changes were reverted. --Deathwing 01:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * What are we talking about? ‽-(eronth) I gi  ve up  01:26, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Some kind of skill update when GW:EN was released, or more the lack of one.--Atlas Oranos 01:45, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * There was a large update very recently, All the rit nerfs and sin nerfs etc...Also they are called skill Balances! therefore if things aren't particularly unbalanced, no changes will be made. I'm not saying this is the case, as i think RaO needs nerfing into oblivion =P But these things take time to make the balance work, and not have the changes reverted in the next balance. -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 09:12, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I just hope something is in the works.--Atlas Oranos 19:31, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Wait, are we ASKING for an obligatory nerf for no particular reason other than that there was one for the other chapters? Or are there actually skills needing nerfage? Counciler 01:45, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Skill balances do not entirely consist of nerfs.--Atlas Oranos 08:29, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I know. I just didn't feel like editing. Counciler 19:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Basically we just had one two weeks ago and I'm still trying to analyze how those effected the game, there will be an update soon I'm sure once people start learning how to abuse the new skills and once they actually work in ATs. ~Izzy @-&#39; 18:20, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

And dont forget a pvp only pack.... I really wish you had added new elites into the 100 new skills. Seems like the expansion is just a quick source of income, and that all your focus is off gw and on gw2.
 * I wouldn't blame them. Though I must say, I really, really like the way the story begins in EotN. Oh, and on a personal note, most skills seem to be well balanced in PvE. Well done.Nicky Silverstar 06:03, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Some skills never got looked at and need to be looked at like before the ANET team gets all hands on Gw2 may I point you to skills such as Persistence of Memory and Balthazar's Pendulum.There should be one final update or many small ones that sort of fixes everything you know like makes elites (or non-elites like signet of disenchantment) that were unplayable (like balthazar's) at least playable. Jigoku 15:41, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that's what all those overpowered and underpowered skills pages are for. At least, I'd HOPE that was the case... Maestro Ed 17:57, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Before they get hands on GW2? Highly unlikely. Just check how long it took them to buff Otyugh's Cry. I mean, no one used the skill for 2 years. It's not like many use it now, but at least it's decent on paper. 78.0.96.106 19:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * (looks at Assassin's Underpowered section) TBH I don't think Izzy looks there too often, not mentioning taking suggestions posted there into account... HTS 84.40.188.84 19:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Glyph of Immolation + Steam = most energy efficent blind combo going. - [[Image:UserDrago-sig.gif]]  Drago  19:26, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Or you could not be a tard and use Blinding Surge? &mdash; Skuld 20:06, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Any news on this front? Doesn't look like any of the new skills are being abused, so you did a good job. A few of the GW:EN skills could use minor buffs, and there are some balance problems still left to fix (melandru, deadly paradox, aggressive refrain come to mind).  And with deadly paradox nerfed you can finally balance some of the deadly arts utility properly (like iron palm and entangling asp given 15r). --Symbol 09:56, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Be patient and let the man do his job. --Tankity Tank 04:16, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Wut? A question on his talk page is preventing Izzy from doing his job?  I wonder how he gets anything done then.  --Symbol 13:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It's better to nag than wait 2 years to get an obviously underpowered skill buffed (Otyughs Cry). If no one complains nothing will get fixed with other skills either. For instance that Deadly Paradox problem has been obvious to everyone for ages. Maybe before GW2 there's a fix. Servant of Kali 06:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't understand what's taking so long when Ensign has written out exactly what you need to do.
 * lksajdfhaklsjdh... the wait always kills me.--Atlas Oranos 00:43, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * F5 Spike on 3, 2, 1.. damn, no news yet ;\ 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok....is Izzy mia or something?
 * Looks like he is in Paris from Gaile's page.Brothermallon 16:19, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * There are skills from prophecy which sorley need a buff as they are almost useless atm. So many skills are horrible, not just some skills overpowered. Balance is also about buffing underpowered skills and that just doesn't happen atm unfortunately. The bare minimum is done to fulfill their obligations to the player base. Look how long the dishonour system took to be implemented in the game where other games had them upon release. 58.110.141.1 01:13, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I've been working on GW2 a lot and I got a little burnt on Wiki for a while there, I get super annoyed when I get conflicts and it seems like 99% of my posts conflict, Wiki just wasn't designed to handle this volume of posts. In the end I read it a lot more then I post, but I'll be on it a lot this week as I'll be working on feedback from this balance update. ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:13, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I think we are all more concerned about you doing something about what we dislike instead of responding to everything. The volume speaks for itself, more needs to be done.--BahamutKaiser 20:36, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I think this is often missed, but we do a skill update every other month and we've been doing it for a long time. Thats just the schedule we work off of. ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:16, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It isn't missed Izzy, you have to understand when you play against the same boring degenerate builds for a month+ straight then people begin to get very bored and this leads to rants/quitting. The problem is not the quantity of the updates, but the quality of what they do for the game. Every update you make an effort to change the meta build into something else instead of addressing the issue of why the meta build exists in the first place. Please if you have not all ready take the time to read some of Ensign's posts at guru, specifically this one: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10205331 then look at the update that was put out and just ask yourself: was the points brought up in this argument addressed by the update? The answer is no in eyes of many of the games premier players. All that was done was a new meta will be created out of the updates you did, and it cycles back to the same type of degenerate builds being played. The game has such a large number of skills, the problem is only a small percentage of them will ever see play because of the meta builds. You are essentially locked into playing with certain classes with basically the same bars save 1-2 skills, whether you want to or not, because otherwise you are just gimping your team. What the game needs more than anything is diversity added back into it, how you do that is up to you, but a start is to reduce the dependency on certain skills, NOT by nerfing the skills themselves, but addressing the reason these skills are required to begin with. (see LoD and why it is needed, not whether or not its overpowered by itself) Addressing this issue will start to change the game for the better. ~Ra 72.74.231.135 21:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Interestingly enough, Izzy did begin to address some of the issues brought up in the post you linked - namely, physical spikes. I agree that there's still a long way to go in that regard, but it's a start. [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 21:30, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem isn't always in the skills, but rather in "the games premier players" and their groupies. Lord Belar 21:21, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

PvP Charater Creation
Hey there Izzy. I was just wondering if we can look forward to an improved pvp-character creation process. Currently it's kind of clumsy if you ask me and very confusing if it's your first time. Anyways, just wondering if there are any plans for that in the near future or future. I know you are all extremely busy down there at the office, with the recent release of eotn and developement starting to really get rolling on gw2. So any responce is greatly appreciated. --Lou-Saydus 19:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Everything is confusing when you first get started. But I think everyone would love to see some good premade builds that you can load for the people new to pvp, because with the current system its very hard to get enough faction to make your first build.  However, one thing I think we really need is the ability to save, load, and ping skills and equipment templates from the same place.  Also I think equipment templates should save all of your item sets, instead of only the one you have loaded. 69.137.78.47 22:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

There will probably not be changes in GW1 to the pvp creation. ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:14, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Assassin's Remedy?
Not sure if I have to ask here or elsewhere, so move if necessary. Anyways, Assassin's Remedy says it'll remove a condition once you use an attack. It doesn't say that it has to hit the target. Yet, it'll only remove a condition when the attack hits the target. Is it meant to work like this? (As it's actually a pain with blind on :p) -- Karuro 22:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * This may belong in the skill balance section, though it could be recognized as a bug rather than simply underpowered, I'm not sure on that policy. Anyhow, there are links toward the top of the page for skill balance if you wish to look into it.  I agree with your concern though, it seems quite ineffective to have a condition removal that will fail because of a condition.--BahamutKaiser 00:23, 10 September 2007 (UTC)


 * And if you hit twice with a dual attack, it consumes two "charges", removing two conditions. Sharpen Daggers works the same way. -- Gordon Ecker 00:24, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * "it seems quite ineffective to have a condition removal that will fail because of a condition." See every self-targetable spell condition removal versus daze. --Edru viransu 01:01, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Change to removes a condition on attack skills regardless if they are missed, blocked.--Atlas Oranos 16:33, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It's even less effective when you have to cast a 1 second enchantment and land attacks to remove conditions, when there are conditions and otherwise to prevent both, not to mention assassins are spell intensive too, and receiving dazed can be just as bad as receiving blind.--BahamutKaiser 21:07, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah this is on one my lists of bugs to fix, the problem is removal from an assassin isn't exactly something that is super important so it just hasn't gotten a lot of attention it will get fixed eventionally but it's not exactly a top priority compared to other fixes. ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:17, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

RA/TA unbalanced build
Izzy, could you give a look to the new RA/TA cookie cutter sin build, the one with signet of judgement, entangling asp, dancing daggers, signet of toxic shock, iron palm etc? I think it is ruining those arenas: their spike is unblockable, unblindable, and can chain 3 knockdowns in a very short time. And moreover, assasins with smiting staves are really silly to see. --Lumenil 01:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Touch Rangers are unblockable, unblindable, and heal themselves - yet they too have their weaknesses. The assassin build you speak of is similar in nature, and shares such weaknesses - ranger, mesmer, and other shutdown-oriented skills including interrupts come to mind. [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 01:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Try to shutdown someone while you are knocked down.. --Lumenil 03:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The point of shutdown is to not allow them to knock you down in the first place. [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 05:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The ritualist/assassin variation is worse. It insta kills, more or less. But worse than that is the fact that you can now maintain Shadow Form (with Deadly Paradox and Arcane Echo) ... forever. The only way to counter a dedicated griefer using this build is to bring along one of the handful of enchant removals capable of effecting someone through Shadow Form.--24.206.111.186 03:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Or Signet of Humility. 69.137.78.47 17:22, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Please, if you are an idiot, don't post about balance topics. Touch rangers can be stopped easily with snares or diversion/dshot.  DP sins cannot be interrupted (all of their stuff is 1/2 second cast or shorter).  Signet of humility does not affect them because they do not use an elite in the combo.  Their spike kills instantly if you have a sup, or if not, they need 1 more dancing dagger cast to finish you.  It's such an obviously game breaking build that anyone who thinks otherwise is really showing something about themselves and how well their brain works.
 * The thing I can't seem to understand is why Anet feels the need to nerf pve-only skills 1-2 days after they come out, but they don't fix this bullsh*t after months of it existing. Anet really needs to get their sh*t together. Shard 04:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree. Stop posting now shard. Readem   Hate Mail Goes Here  04:21, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That's right shard, you just broke your own rule. First, 1 chain + 1 Dancing Daggers cannot kill a 600hp target.  That's going to deal about 300 + deepwound.  And if you had been reading properly, you would know I said to use Signet of Humility in response to the guy talking about how you can keep Shadow Form up forever. 69.137.78.47 04:25, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No need to nerf anything because some skills have been chained very well, 3 KD's. Nerf a Hammer skills then straight away! :O InfestedHydralisk  [[image:Shadow_Prison.jpg|19px]] 16:25, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I broke my own rule? You explain to the class how this combo is balanced if you're such an expert about it.  Signet of humility DOES NOT STOP THE COMBO.  Learn how to read.  It might help you in life. 72.235.48.41 04:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * How does Signet of Humilty not assist in disrupting the combo, it should be shutting down the Signet of Judgement, if it's not, thats a bug that should be looked into. In any case, rust will also be a serious annoyance to someone running that build, as would primal echoes. Dargon 05:33, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I never said Signet of Humility is used for stopping the Dancing Daggers combo. I said it is used to stop infinite Shadow Form.  Learn how to understand the topic at hand, it might help you in life. 69.137.78.47 17:22, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It's nowhere near imbalanced, since it has so many counters. Saying things like their spike kills instantly implies that you are using 5 or more superior runes. I beat plenty of them today as a rit healer in RA, so it must be your player skill, not the imbalance of the skills. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090. 21:24, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I am playing this build actually, I'm not suffering from it, and I say it is unbalanced. Ritualist are one of the easiest to kill, the only real counters being high hp regen (shied of regeneration) or energy denial. Interrupts dont work, shutdown neither. --Lumenil 17:40, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * List a skill bar then, because you're stating "interrupts don't work" but for all the bars I've seen, interrupts work just fine. [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 17:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The skills are those I mentioned above.. I forgot only deadly paradox, which reduces the cast time of almost all skills to 0.50 (and halves recharge too) and is always up, since this build doesn't use any attack skill, and augury of death, which provides deep wound and shadow step for the final and usually deadly iron palm. --Lumenil 00:58, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * DShot is good. --Edru viransu 01:04, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * DP reduces recharge, not casting. A stoned mesmer can int a 1 sec cast, and a slightly skilled ranger can d-shot it. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090. 01:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC) <--- idiot
 * DP doesn't reduce the cast time of SoJ which means interrupts work fine against it. Entangling Asp you have a warning from due to Dancing Daggers, so even at 0.5seconds it's still interruptible. Other mesmer shutdown also works. That's totally discounting any healing or protection teammates might throw at you (or you might throw at yourself if you see such an assassin targeting you. As a healer, there's also the option of bringing utility such as Balanced Stance, which many monks do because it's a general counter to one of the greatest troubles healers face, knockdown. [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 05:15, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe more Monks should start bringing Aura of Stability, if the metagame's knockdown-heavy. There's no such thing as a build with no counters, only builds with narrow counters. If you repeatedly lose to those builds, then why aren't you bringing some hate? --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]] Ĵĩôřũĵĩ Đēŗāķō.> .cнаt^  05:22, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Use Balanced Stance/Shield Bash, or QQ. Readem   Hate Mail Goes Here  05:29, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * "Brace Yourself!", Ignorance, Rust, any stance-removal, such as Wild Throw/Strike/Blow, Preemptive interrupts, such as Mark of Subversion, Diversion (also handy for Touch Rangers), "Can't Touch This!" (also mildly useful against aforementioned Rangers)... the list goes on. Anti-knockdown skills help against this build, any Hammer Warrior, Thumpers, and the always easy-to-find elementalists with Gale and/or Mind Shock. Mark of Subversion and Diversion are also just plain good to use; Rust and Ignorance have that tiny little bonus of, oh, shutting down those pesky Resurrection Signets... plenty of ways to stop those silly little Assassins. --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]] Ĵĩôřũĵĩ Đēŗāķō.> .cнаt^  06:42, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * (reset indent) Wow, you listed 8 skills that work against the build, and only 1 of them is a viable skill, except for the fact by the time you finish casting Diversion, they already cycled their whole combo. Let me explain why Signet of Humility does not stop this combo.
 * Deadly Paradox, Augury of Death, Dancing Daggers, Entangling Asp, Signet of Toxic Shock
 * Do you see any elites? I don't. People only use Sig of Judgment because they have 106 attribute points and an elite slot left over, this combo is 100% deadly arts. Also, for the zillionth time, broken does not mean unstoppable. It means compared to other things, overwhelmingly better. It just so happens that this combo is both of those. Shard 08:15, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * DP -> AoD -> DD -> EA -> SoTS -> IP is approximately 264 damage + poison + DW, not counting armor reduction on dancing daggers. Sure, the knockdowns are annoying, but without more in that chain, it's hardly going to kill someone, which implies more usage of DD/SoTS/IP - but oh wait, they take time to recharge. Even under DP, SoTS has a 7-second recharge and EA/IP have 10-second recharges. It's a nice spike, but not really in the "broken" category IMO. [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 08:53, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Clearly you have never met someone using this build, otherwise you would know that all a sin needs is to reduce under the half the health bar of his target: after that, AoD triggers, and there is a spike (+knockdown) caused by deep wound + iron palm. If the target has high hp points, and is still alive, then just throw another DD and he is dead. --Lumenil 12:56, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd ask that you not make unwarranted assumptions, because I have faced the build plenty of times, I personally have no problem with it. I'm arguing from a theoretical standpoint however because my personal playstyle or skill level shouldn't really be a factor for balance discussions. [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 16:51, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I won't argue your point here; I haven't tested or run into this build as of yet, so I can't give any more insight then I already have. But I would like to point out, if you read a bit farther up the page; Signet of Humility was listed as a retort to someone commenting that Shadow Form was nigh-unstoppable. The Signet does nothing about this build, yes. But it does exactly what the poster said it does; shut down Shadow Form.
 * Just to note; Diversion + Fast Casting = useful. Anyone attempting to use Diversion effectively without Fast Casting isn't really using it effectively, they're just spamming it randomly in hopes of hitting something. So long as someone's using a Mesmer, they can and will pull off a Diversion at least halfway through your combo, if not earlier. Let's not forget, that Mesmer's casting from full range, while the Assassin is casting from half-range, so the Mesmer's going to have a head start on him. Of course, I'm not suggesting that this makes the build any more balanced, simply that the counters aren't quite as narrow and useless as some others say they are. --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]] Ĵĩôřũĵĩ Đēŗāķō.> .cнаt^  08:30, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Saying Diversion counters something is a bit silly .. I mean, Diversion counters EVERYTHING ... so what's your point? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:12.179.188.5.
 * My point was, people were saying that the build was nearly impossible to counter; and, like you said, Diversion can counter just about everything. I was simply pointing out that the build does have counters, and not narrow ones either. --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]] Ĵĩôřũĵĩ Đēŗāķō.> .cнаt^  21:43, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

You find similar discussions here. And yes, it IS overpowered. Next to every knockdown either causes exhaustion (Ele knockdowns), is conditional (requires opponent to move, to have no allies within reach, to suffer from weakness, etc) or requires to build up adrenaline. Knockdowns that cause exhaustion are limited due to exhaustion, conditional knockdowns can be prevented by not meeting the specified condition, adrenaline-based knockdowns can be prevented, too, because the attacker mustn't fail to hit (both to build up adrenaline, and for the knockdown itself). Entangling Asp, however, meets neither of the above, and while being balanced for itself, it's not in combination with Dancing Daggers, Signet of Toxic Shock and (most importantly) Deadly Paradox. Yes, you need a lead attack for Entangling Asp, but with a 5/0.5/5 Dancing Daggers you can meet this requirement easily, giving you a knockdown every 10s. SoTS deals a nice amount of 106 damage without spending any energy, the required poisoning comes with Entangling Asp - and as your target (preferably the monk) is knockdowned, it cannot remove its condition in time. That's the core of your build, and it's quite a joke, that you have to spec only one attribute for it (Deadly Arts), so you can spec another up to 12 - your elite slot isn't used either. I played against this build, and I have played it for myself, and I think it's utterly broken. Btw, talking of all that counters, I think the best way to counter it is bringing two monks, and that's a sad thing. I don't want to 'use' this counter, and I don't want others to be encouraged to play with two monks either. - TeleTeddy 08:23, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * People are funny...boohoo, an ASSASSIN has a strong spike :(. Lets nerf assassins again because they are getting used. Then when we nerf this build, then there is another assassin build....we can nerf that too :). We can just keep nerfing until they are never used again!!! BRILLIANCE!!!!!!--Deathwing 08:37, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You didn't get the point. The assassin has many strong spikes, but that's okay, the assassin is meant to spike. But there's ONE spike that comes with lots of knockdowns and cannot be prevented by blindness (and many more reasons why it's imba, as explained above), and THAT particular spike needs to be nerfed. - TeleTeddy 08:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No it shouldnt be. This build is a way to bypass blindind. There are other ways to kill. Ever think of backfire. The spells have to be used quickly to kill someone and because they are used quickly, they dont see backfire killing them double of what they are doing to the person they are attacking. Daze is also a great counter. Keep him from casting any spells. Diversion was brought up earlier, the sin will be able to kill one person, then he cant do anything for a minute, giving a huge amount of time to kill sin or other teammates without the threat of the sin. All builds are easily countered with other skills that many teams bring. Rangers and mesmers (with the rest of the group) defeat all builds, end of story.
 * All this has been discussed a thousand times already: A build is not necessarily balanced, just because there is a counter. An enemy isn't necessarily disabled for one minute, just because you cast diversion. Rangers and Mesmers do NOT defeat all builds, this statement is simply ridiculous - ah, there's too much to write, so I won't go into details any further. Btw, please sign your comments. - TeleTeddy 08:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Dancing Daggers is overpowered, and Paradox is to be blamed. Spare me the arguments like "It's not overpowered because Roaring Winds counters it" or "I can still kill it". That isn't valid argument in determining whether something is overpowered or not. Compare it with other builds instead. I've played RA TA a lot and Dancing Daggers is overpowered. If you don't think it's overpowered, you can do a test. Make a 4v4 scrimmage, fight around flag stand, simulate TA. Let enemy team takes Dancing Daggers and a monk, and your will take 1 Monk with Aura of Faith elite, then Dervish with Onslaught, Mesmer with Visions of Regret and Ritualist with Clamor of Souls. Servant of Kali 16:31, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Wtf does retarded builds with horribly underpowered elites have to do with anything? --Deathwing 20:35, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

My recent changes helped vs the life stealing Mesmers, I know everyone screams at me about the Assassins but my take on them is very different I'll try and post something soon about it explaining my point of view. ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:18, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Please, do it soon. I think you have stated several times that you see no problem with the specific build questioned for Assassins (that is echo SF/DP), but you have given no argument yet to support it. You must understand that in RA, while any team may eventually deal with, let's say, a 55 monk or a runner build, there are just a few classes and just 2 or three skills that can deal with a echo SF/DP assassin, specially if he starts the combo as soon as the battle begins. Sure, the current timer helps to deal with it, but when your average RA battle lasts 3 minutes if lucky, the full timer may be too long for these.
 * The fact that you took Chillblains out of the game for countering this build makes things look even uglier actually. --Fighterdoken 20:29, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * There is probably be an update soon where I'm dropping it from 50% reduction to 33%. ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:17, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Spirit nests
I think using the 'strategy' to bring a lot of spirts, and wait inside for the enemy to engage you amidst your spirits is not only very annoying, but comes along with a lot of balance problems. Games with a spirit spammer are always the ones that are the most boring and time-consuming in TA. I really like Ritualists, but I frown every time I see one in the opposite team - it might be a spirit spammers, and this usually leads to lots of waiting, as your enemy won't get out of his spirit nest, while you can't seriously engage him within the reach of all that spirits: It's so annoying! There are spirit spammers that can be interrupted easily, of course, but a 'good' spirit spammers will place all of his spirits while you are out of reach, and then advance slowly. Not that it's overpowered or something like that, but it's no fun playing against it. I'd wish there would be some new mechanism introduced to the game, that prevents this 'strategy'. Maybe something like this, valid for every (offensive) spirit: While not attacking, for each other spirit near this one, it suffers from -3 health degeneration. This suggestion may have its flaws, but there really should be a game mechanism that discourages waiting inside a spirit nest. - TeleTeddy 08:48, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No. Another bad suggestion. Readem   Hate Mail Goes Here  08:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If you think that waiting inside a spirit nest is a problem, then feel free to suggest better ideas. If not, please enlighten me with some explanations. ;) - TeleTeddy 08:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Lets rub our wieners together. --Deathwing 08:56, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * /Rub. Readem   Hate Mail Goes Here  23:24, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * "I'd wish there would be some new mechanism introduced to the game, that prevents this 'strategy'." - I believe it's called AoE. Perhaps make spirits take double damage from spells, if you want to propose that, to make AoE more efficient against them. [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 09:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Great suggestion, Deathwing. But just for shits and giggles, let's do something else.
 * Seeing nerfs to these spirits is a thing a lot of people don't want to see; the ability to make these "spirit nests" is one of the spirit spammer's defining points, and losing this ability greatly reduces their usefulness to below that of most other builds. I wouldn't mind seeing buffs to all those "if you hit a summoned creature, this skill does X" skills; preferably buffs to the "normal" side of the effects, making the skills useful even if there isn't a spirit spammer around. More ways to kill spirits, without killing your own skillbar, would be great.
 * Another minor change might be, make it possible for people to walk through spirits. I mean, they're spirits, so getting body-blocked by the souls of the dead just doesn't make sense. And if spirit spammers can't hide in the middle of their nest and be untouchable, then you've got a way to deal with it. I've found that, whenever I fight against a spirit spammer, the best way to stop them is to charge in headfirst. Keep them moving, wail on them when they cast spirits, and so on. Displacement doesn't last long if you're attacking quickly; same goes for Shelter and Union. But it's hard to keep attacking if, every time the spirit spammer casts a spirit, I've gotta run around the spirit to hit them (often, you'll run into pathing issues during this, resulting in even more time for the spirit spammer to do whatever he likes). Make those incorporeal masses truly incorporeal, and melee characters have that option of charging in and actually doing something. Everything else, deal with it as normal. If they heal, try to out-damage them. If the run, chase them. If they hurt you, well then hurt them back, they're supposed to try to hurt you. I just don't like their ability to body block you five times over, normally in a tight area as it is with multiple teammates as well. --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]] Ĵĩôřũĵĩ Đēŗāķō.> .cнаt^  09:13, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * What about removing the disable from Ray of Judgment and making it inflict double damage vs. spirits? -- Gordon Ecker 09:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think AoE is a reasonable counter. Spirit spammers, who know what they are doing won't build their spirits in one place, so you need a very large AoE effect. Spirits have a minimum hitpoints of 100 (at level 1), being built by a ritualist with specced attribute results in much more life - one AoE spell won't be enough. So, you have to take either multiple AoE spells with area damage (near wouldn't be sufficient) or an AoE spell, that continously deals damage within area reach. Bringing this will severely limit your options, especially if playing TA. And why would you do that? You don't need to bring this counter, as you're not threatened by a spirit spammer build (except if you fear death via boredom, maybe): You can easily evade and fight outside of the spirits, if you bring the time. I just don't think there should be a situation, where it's to the best advantage for both teams to simply wait for the enemy to come. - TeleTeddy 09:24, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * A level 1 spirit will die in 1-2 attacks. Even level 8-9 spirits die in a few hits. Still think we should rub our wieners together : / --Deathwing 09:27, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, you start reasoning at last, very well. Problem is, that you can't charge into a spirit nest. Depending on the spirits used you'll be either blinded or knockdowned (or both) and get huge amounts of damage and die quickly - you might have killed one spirit until then, or not, but that doesn't really matter, does it? Melees are very strong vs spirits, and that's the reason why most spirit spammers (at least those I'm talking about here) are prepared against melees. Btw, I'm not into that whole gay thing, so no thank you - but I'm sure you'll find someone else to share pleasures with. - TeleTeddy 09:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This isn't a 1v1 battle that we are talking about is it? Shield of Absorption + Shielding Hands will pretty much totally negate the spirits no? I've ran a spirit spammer before, the best thing to do is just kill the spirits : / Even in RA/TA, with a team of 4, you should still be able to easily kill the spirits, leaving the Spirit Spammer useless. --Deathwing 09:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, your job is to kill the spirits, you're absolutely correct about that - still it's madness to charge into a spirit nest. You can, of course, pre-prot a melee and send him in, but shield of absorption will expire eventually, while the melee will do nothing except being blind. If your monk moves in to remove blindness, then he will be targeted, and as spirit attack range exceeds caster range, you have a problem, here. Having all your spirits already placed is an enormous advantage for your team. - TeleTeddy 09:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The way i see this, the problem are not the spirits, but the ta design that allows a groups to stay behind waiting for the enemy all day long. So, i think you are looking for the wrong direction trying to nerf spirits while the best solution would be to improve ta. but that wouldn't be as easy as a little spirit nerf.Coran Ironclaw 14:04, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Nah, it's not exactly a spirit nerf I desire - However, I'd like to prevent the (what I call) abuse of spirits. All you have to do is find a way that hampers waiting inside a spirit nest, while NOT reducing effectiveness of spirits generally. You'll find an idea how this could work in my first post, Jioruji had some good ideas, too. Btw, I don't think this is the wrong direction, it's the best direction I see to solve the problem. If you know a way to improve TA design, feel free to post. - TeleTeddy 18:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I do feel free to post ideas to improve TA, the problem is, it is not easy, there are tons of things to be considered. And i should say i am not an experienced game designer =p. I do have some vagues ideas however, which i hope to write them down some near day when i have the time to ... land them down. So, that is why i said "but that wouldn't be as easy as a little spirit nerf" Coran Ironclaw 19:46, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Two words on handling Spirit Nesters... Holy Spear. This skill drops spirits so quickly its disgusting.--Veraci 17:04, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * As i tried to point out earlier, counters are not that relevant to my concern. Even with an imaginary skill that kills every spirit on the map there will be the problem, that both teams do nothing but wait (probably because one team hasn't brought a counter). However, I think game design should do its best to avoid such a situaton. - TeleTeddy 18:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * On the contrairy, i think your concern is nullified by counters. If the spirit nest is gone or reduced in effectiveness (due to counters) there's no point in turtling anymore. As aiiane pointed out, the mechanism that prevents turtling in a sprit farm, is removing the farm. There are even skills specifically made for countering sprits. Even with a longbow you can stay out of range and take them down easily. If the metagame of TA moves towards spirit spamming, you might consider bringing the skills to counter it. Morgoth Bauglyr 18:29, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter if a mechanic can be countered. It matters if it's fun or not.  Dealing with spirit farms is not fun.  The obvious solution is to limit the # of spirits per team depending on teamsize.  So 3 in 4v4 modes and maybe 6 in the 8v8.--Drekmonger 19:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * GW PvP isn't supposed to be about "Fun". If that is truly what you believe, troll farming awaits you. Readem   Hate Mail Goes Here  23:23, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * For players games are about fun. For companies behind the games they are about money. For a few selected top PvP guilds in GW the game might be about prize money. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 00:19, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

In places like TA or RA it's not really spirits that are the issue, it's the gametype. There's no incentive that pushes the teams to do battle, so it means that you can happily setup camp and wait till the other team gets too bored waiting to deal with it effectively.210.11.133.163 22:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The time limit needs to be reduced to 5-10 minutes = sudden death. 15 minutes = team with highest % health wins. --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 23:21, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * How would this suggestion encourage anyone to attack? Waiting would still be your best option, as charging the enemy comes with a severe disadvantage for your team. I DO think there should be something like a Victory or Death situation in RA/TA to hamper survival teams, but this suggestion would not affect the problem with spirit farms either - so I disagree, 'camping inside a spirit farm' is not a problem that is linked to TA gametype. - TeleTeddy 08:17, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * cap points could somewhat counter nesters... throw a cap map in here and there, the nester would be stuck on a single cap while the rest of the team would have to split making for easier kills of either the solo nester or the 2 or 3 who split. --Midnight08 18:12, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know what kind of retarded Spirit Spammers Aiine has been playing agains (or possibly playing as) but I thought even noobs in PvE learnt not to clump together and thus spirit spammers don't place their spirits all in once place either. AoE is just as much of a counter to spirit spam as wanding is - it's not. 58.110.141.174 14:35, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

My latest change tweaked some Health and made them burning it's a small change but well see how it does. ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:18, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Star Strike
This skill is affected by Death Magic and the minions dissapear after the 10 second mark. What gives? Is it supposed to be like that? Done25 01:33, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

No I'll forward this on to QA sounds buggy! ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Juggernaut Toss
Saying this skill has touch range is a hilarious joke. This skill is bugged - Juggernauts do NOT use this at touch range, they can use it at spell range - possibly further. Dancing Gnome 04:45, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Well I'd better hope the bug stays... The Juggernaut @ FA is already underpowered enough compared to the Turtles >_>" --J0ttem™ 06:57, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * then change skill description 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The skill just needs to be changed to touch range. That's the only change that needs to be made. 58.110.142.117 03:18, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll look into this my guess is the text just needs updating as we don't want to change the balance on these guys. ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Done with GW1?
Hey Izzy I don't mean to sound like a douche or anything here but are you done with GW1 in terms of skill balance and just moved on to solely GW2? Just seems like lack of any real activity from everyone at anet in regards to GW1 now that eotn is out. Thanks!
 * Gaile said there will be a skill balance update soon. 28 September 2007

No I'm not, but I am starting to work onto GW2 so it takes a lot of my free time which I used to use to post on Wiki, and I've been horrible about checking in on my talk page, it sorta grew to an unmanagable state for me and burnt me out. : ) I'll try and be better about it thou. Overall I will continue to do skill updates, and manage balance and skill tweaks for GW1, but I am starting to move onto designing core systems for GW2. While we will continue to support GW1 keep mind we are SUPER excited about GW2 it's fun to work on and we get to do a lot of stuff we've always wanted to do with GW1 so it's easy for it to grab our attion more then it should and pull us away :) hopefully you will enjoy it when you get to start seeing the stuff we're working on. Until then I'll try and be more active here I've been slackin, but keep in mind this is something I do in my free time beacuse I enjoy giving everyone info and making people feel more involved. ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:30, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think we can all agree that your excitement for GW2 is not an entertaining option now, some of us would like the game we have to play at the moment to be done well, and if your taking all your time away to work on GW2, staff should be added to monitoring and developing GW1 in your absence.--BahamutKaiser 20:43, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I still monitor and change GW1, my point was it's harder to talk about what I'm working on and what I'm doing when I'm working on GW2 stuff, it's always been the fact that most people at arena.net are working on the next product, be it a new chapter or be it a new game, as a developer you spend a lot of your time working on new content. ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I would like to inform you, that you just ruined GW
Reporting sucks. New glad sucks. People are unhappy, nubs flourish. I blame you, would anyone like to possibly buy my worthless account, as PvP is filled with retards from all over. Readem  Hate Mail Goes Here  06:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * New glad isn't that bad, the other changes refer to areas where you have random teams, only. Who would call that serious PvP in the first place? A few tweaks should be made, but it's far from 'ruined'. - TeleTeddy 08:49, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I am merely talking about dumb people surge, messing around with the /Report function, and going "Lulz, that was funny." Readem 08:52, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Did I mention that it is a very large surge? Readem 08:53, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Let the game stabilise onto a new feature before you whine about it. --Ckal Ktak 15:53, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Just went to RA to see what it looks like, and I really believe it was better than before. A lot less leavers, still need to try in AB to see how the report feature is doing with Leechers. However I am happy with the changes right now. I just expect a new skill balance soon, the last one seems just far now, with too much revert. --Faena 16:03, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

(r.i.)There is no easy solutions when it comes to idiots in games, condemning attempts to take on the problem of idiocy isn't very bright either. Biz 17:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Was it really Izzy who was the mastermind behind adding the report function and a change to the title? All this time I thought he was pretty much just about skill changes. :p (A Stranger) 18:03, 28 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Nope, it was Andrew Patrick. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 19:46, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually you are wrong....Ryan Scott -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 15:32, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Woops, yeah. I read their user pages again and Andrew only forwards the community ideas to the team. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 15:37, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

As much as I enjoy taken credit for awesome posts like this! I didn't really work on reporting that was morello, he has a talk page up so go yell at him :) ~Izzy @-&#39; 21:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Silver-/Bronze-Trims
Hello Izzy,

when do you remove the Capes of the past Tournaments? For example RUS has the Silvertrim of the mAT 2 month ago, RIP the silvertrim from the AT 3 month ago. Please Remove the old trims and Add the New ones. Thx Wegi 12:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah this happened for the July season as well izzy forgot to give them out. PM him online if you seem him on and that should remind him.


 * Yeah but he should also remove the old ones.. because its really not funny if dead guilds have silvertrims from the first monthly AT. Wegi 16:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * well that all seems to be of sorted now87.194.104.90 18:58, 8 October 2007 (UTC)Burton


 * Yes he removed the old capes now.. now only the old ones who has to be 2 weeks longer are in the game i think, like InK Allstars. Wegi 19:22, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * He gave Black Spectrum a Bronze Cape ... but they finished last mAT on 33. OHR 09:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

yeah my list got messed up and it included top 36 instead of 32 I'll fix that today. ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:03, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Quick Character Switch
Say you're in HA lobby trying to find a group. Currently you're on your thumper but you can play anything. You notice a nice R6+ group that needs a monk, so you go back to the character select screen, get on your monk, map to HA, switch to the district, then try to join the party only to find out they've already found a monk. Sometimes it can be agonizing how many times this can happen, not only in the same day, but CONSECUTIVELY. I think there should be a window, much like the party search window, that shows all your characters, and allows you to select one. When you choose one and hit OK, it loads up that character, in the same town and district you were already in, doesn't leave your party, and doesn't clear chat. This would make changing characters so much quicker and easier, and also make people want to buy extra character slots so they can do this with plenty of different kinds of characters. 69.137.78.47 16:17, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It may just be me, but didn't they already made it faster by making it so that you won't have to log out anymore? Anyway, people who don't wait aren't usually the people I want to play with anyway...but I can see your dilemma. It would be tough implementing it in PvE though.Nicky Silverstar 17:42, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You could of course tell them that you have a monk and would love to join them and just need a minute or two to go get it. Dargon 18:15, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * There are also technical problems to this implementation. It would require quite a lot of coding and afaik the ANet team is concentrating on making GW2 and only fixing and balacning problems in GW1, nothing more. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 18:48, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Even if it was a simple thing to do, it may not be high on their list of priorities. It'd be a neat feature although.  Barinthus 19:26, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * <i> "only fixing and balacning problems in GW1"</I> and thats going so well isnt it ! =P /Sarcasm  -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 20:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, haven't seen much of em lately. A double repu wekend hints at the hard mode release on Thursday/Friday though and Gaile also promised a skill balance update this week, so I'm waiting for something pretty juicy. :) -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 21:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Dude are you deaf?
Does any Anet employee still play PvP in this game? Would you mind nerfing Paradox skill which has been a problem since day one? Because Dancing Daggers is getting out of hand. Just spare me the "im working on it", ur not working at anything ur somewhere on Hawaii celebrating game sales and making GW2. Servant of Kali 21:58, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Just maybe people disagree with you. Paradox is a stance, several counters to those, daggers is a spell, also several counters to those, not to mention that it only barely does more damage than flare.  Is flare overpowered? Dargon 22:24, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You're just a noob who has no idea what he is talking about. I'm not even going to waste my time explaining what tons of other people did elsewhere. Servant of Kali 22:34, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Get some manners and grow up. Screaming like you lost your place in the sandbox isn't going to get you anywhere. &mdash; Skuld 22:37, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Which part of what I said wasn't true? That's he's a noob? How can an experienced player type what he did? "If Eviscerate did 2000dmg that would be ok because there are counters....". Sorry.Servant of Kali 22:40, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Read my post again. &mdash; Skuld 22:41, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Calling someone a noob in disparaging way is not appropriate for any discussion here. Please keep your comments to the issue rather then insulting the poster. -- Lemming [[Image:User Lemming64 sigicon.png]] 22:44, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If posting noobish comments is OK, then calling someone noob is ok too. Servant of Kali 22:49, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid that is not true. -- Lemming [[Image:User Lemming64 sigicon.png]] 22:50, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * And why not? Person who steals is a thief. Person who kills is a killer. Person who lies is a liar. Person who posts noobish comments is a noob. Servant of Kali 22:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * And a person who personally attacks others gets banned for violating NPA. Go back up and read Skuld's post, as you've obviously missed it. - Auron 22:58, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It's better to be banned than stay in a company of noobs. If you look around at any PvP-related section of this forum, you'll see that ALL good players I knew from the game kinda stop posting, and now there are noobs like this one and Bahamut etc as well as some trolls. That's all that's left, no one else sees a point in this. Servant of Kali 23:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Please read the first paragraph of GWW:NPA before you carry on Kali. -- Lemming 23:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Cracked Armor.
Before cracked armor skills were introduced everyone thought it would imbalance the whole game and we all gonna die, nerf plz etc. Now we have those skills but not many teams use it because in reality it doesn't have that much impact on the game. 7 October 2007


 * It's a very useful condition since few professions really have 60 armor, and all of the armor boosts in the game are really troublesome. It really just needs to be applied to more skills, It could really help in hammer attacks as well.--BahamutKaiser 20:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That does not change the fact that it has not altered the meta at all.--71.251.177.38 20:13, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Alot of conditions don't make or break the meta, and some skills just don't make the grade, even other conditions. It is useful especially as another addition to a spike and it does make a target softer.  Outside of being more accessible it don't see how it could be changed, it is well suited to reduce armor a resonable amount without being outragious or too weak, it just lacks widespread application.


 * Once we see it added to a few more skills that have already be considered, and perhaps a few more beyond that, I'm sure it will be a decent addition the mix of conditions. Curently, it is the only other condition to soften a target besides deep wound, when your spiking it's a completely natural and useful addition.

overall I priced this about as hard to apply as deepwound but I think it's effect is about as good as weakness, so the skills that apply it need to be tweaked some, I'll probably hit that next balance update as I feel the strong physical damage and insane block meta game was top priotry and I don't like changing too much at once as it destroys your ability to analyze anything. ~Izzy @-&#39; 22:19, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the biggest problem with this condition is the possibility for it to do nothing. 60 armor is pretty low, allowing abilities to typically do exactly the damage they say they will, so allowing it to lower armor below 60 as low as 50 even may be entirely too powerful, and with an armor stacking cap of 25, it is likely that the foe will not stack several armor benifits, and cracked armor will totally or mostly counter armor boosts.  I think the real issue is that certain professions have well over 80 armor in one way or another, as well as additional armor pluses, and since this reduction ceases at 60 armor, perhaps it should be -30 armor instead of 20.  Negative 30 armor is enough to bring a rangers elemental and physical armor to 60, and even a warriors physical armor down to 70.  Even at that level, with additional armor boosting effects being used by foes, alot of it's effectiveness will be mitigated, I mean, against WY, it only lowers the armor 6 points lower than the unmodded value.  Also, this is hardly an elite condition, and casters have the benifit of hexes, more physical attacks should have cracked armor as well, particularly hammer attacks, and maybe some Assassin attacks.--BahamutKaiser 03:15, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * In response to what you said about "our ability to analyze anything," I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you. Granted, there will probably be a "bell curve" that represents everyone's competent understand of what has been done. It's only natural that there will be some who wont understand, but will catch on quickly because there will be those that understand everything, and will pass that knowledge onto others; from there exponentially increasing throughout the community. Many players will grasp everything just by reading the update notes. New combinations are made in people's mind as they read each an every skill change. Believe me, there is nothing that you can put out, that at least one person wont grasp, and then spread to others/help them to grasp. As far as updating goes, I feel the fact of the matter is that people do not want these monthly updates. We want everything to be changed now, and adjusments made immediately as needed. Nobody enjoys playing against broken mechanics/skills for a month and a half. Hell, nobody likes playing against it for one night. And I think players would like to know what you plan on doing before you actually do them. I felt, when this happened, we had some of the better skill updates. //Problem. 03:17, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Did you mean one person? Armond 19:13, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * You don't get it? I type what I think. That's all. If you don't like it, you can censor me or ban or whatever. But if you expect me to read someones noobish comment and then smile giggle or make politically correct comments - forget it. Servant of Kali 23:05, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Kali. You're right. The guy you responded to has no clue about skills or balance, has no idea that Wild Blow is a terrible counter for a stance that has a 10s recharge, and that spell counters fail against dancing daggers sins. You are correct about your assessment. Nobody's saying you're wrong, we're saying you fail at people skills... which will get you banned.
 * Follow Skuld's advice and you'll be able to continue posting what you think. - Auron 23:08, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * LOL doesn't work. 209.189.130.127 17:10, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think someone just got owned in RA and on the Wiki. On the topic of RA, I have fought several of these insanely overpowered builds, along with the supposedly insanely powerful Me/N with AGaze, and had no problems whatsoever with them. There is a good chance that the ones I seen were just noobs, but from what I seen, they were kind of a joke. --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 23:42, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure nobody cares. - Auron 23:43, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Then why respond? But thanks for the input. Next time that I am worried if you care or not, I will make sure to put it on your talk page :) --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 23:50, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe I am a noob, and maybe I've been playing since the WPE and think people should try thinking outside the box before they cry NERF. As for Wildblow vs paradox hmm maybe I'm missing something but doesn't an 8 second recharge trump a 10 second?  Guess I'm a noob because I need that one explained to me in small words, my noobish brain can comprehend.  I'm not saying the sin build isn't powerful, i'm saying before you sulk in a corner, insult people, etc etc etc, try looking at all the available skills.  People complain that you can't interrupt the skills / signets, well change the playing field to your favor.  Rust will slow down the signets to make them more interruptible and primal echos will drain a signet spammer of energy real fast.  Dancing daggers is a spell so yes, backfire will be an issue, especially if it's being spammed.  So get off your high horse, look at where you're having a problem and maybe think about ways you can change to combat it rather than scream NERF! Dargon 07:01, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll stick with famous Goethe: "All theory, dear friend, is gray..." Get yourself seven guild mates who have about the same PvP experience than you. First team plays a bonder and three Dancing Daggers Knockdown Assas, second team plays whatever you consider a counter. Meet in your guild hall and make several scrimmages. After that, both teams go to Team Arenas and compare how many wins they will make, without changing anything...
 * Of course, you can use Wild Blow every 8s, which makes it superior to Deadly Paradox (10s), but... Wild Blow will nullify your adrenalin. Most builds are not meant to spam Wild Blow, for various reasons. They don't even have to, until they meet Paradox sins. If the sin shows up in a mixed team, there is a fair chance you'll get blinded or hexed with clumsiness: There are so many counters vs melee attacks. On top of all that, cancelling Deadly Paradox doesn't even stop Deadly sins, you still need to interrupt them. I won't argue about Rust (lol!), Primal Echoes (another skill that is so very versatile, no build should miss it!) or Backfire, just look at the other discussions for that. Btw, thx for the imputation that I didn't think of counters and ways to beat it before I cried for a nerf, but: I can assure you it's not true. Yes, there are counters, but they are either not viable in the Team Arenas (that means, bringing this counter will severely reduce your competitiveness vs other teams), or they are quite difficult to apply (this means, that you have to be a much better player than your A/Mo enemy to beat him - I wouldn't call that balanced). - TeleTeddy 07:48, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Then there's the whole part of actually hitting them with it - assacasters don't come right up to you to cast, they can be at half spell range; as soon as you come close with your wild blow war (lol?), they either A. kite away from you, or B. knock-lock you in 2x Savannah Heats, 2x Searing Heats and 2x Teinei's Heat... which usually kills you, when you add on the 200 or so armor-ignoring damage they get off from Signet of Toxic Shock, SoJ, and dancing dagger spam. Oh, and if they don't want to kill you, they can just throw siphon speed on you and laugh as they kite circles around you and kill your monks. - Auron 08:25, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Assassins good at killing... what a shock! Paradox might need some limit, say 2 next skills, but its not that bad. Biz 12:00, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * A kiting assassin is an assassin that isn't using his skills and therefor isn't a threat. As for earlier comments with regards to Wild Blow draining your adrenaline, so what, nobody said it had to be a warrior with it.  It could be another assassin (which could also be wild strike with a 4 second recharge) or wild throw with a 4 adrenalin cost, neither of which drain adrenaline.  Alternatively, a melandrus dervish shouldn't have a huge problem given their immunity to conditions.  Is the Assassin build powerful?  No doubt, is it unbeatable?  Hardly, and many of the methods are quite generic and won't leave a team all that open to other builds, but given the way so many people are crying about this one build, you wouldn't think anyone else was running anything else. Dargon 02:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Are you suggesting, that a build has to be unbeatable to be unbalanced? Unbalanced means, that a build is significantly stronger than other builds. Unbalanced means, that people running this build will own every team that has about the same PvP experience than themselves. People are crying about this build because it is too strong, and it's so annoying, by now there's rarely a Random Arena fight without SoJ A/Mo. - TeleTeddy 07:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Assacasters are a little imba, but they don't need a big nerf. Make deadly paradox last and recharge in 5s and cost 10e, and they'll run out of energy fast. Lord Belar 20:47, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * What about nerfing the recharge buff to something like 30%? -- Gordon Ecker 00:17, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I kind of hope they will shift focus onto stabalizing and developing all the useless skills, build and attending broken features in order to ensure the longevity of GW before redirecting attention to GW2, it seems as if they decided they were scott free to work on GW2 just because they threw down an expansion, when we are still suffering for long overdue improvements all the way back to prophecies.--BahamutKaiser 00:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I won't say that I'm happy with the current situation, but maybe you're expecting too much. Skill system derived from Magic:The Gathering, and if you look at this kind of games you will notice that there's always a huge amount of useless cards (counterpart to GW-skills). There are plenty of games like M:TG, and I know a couple of them, but I never ever heard from a card game like this, where there would be no (or even few) useless cards - you can't balance them all, not with reasonable effort, at least. Anyway, this is no reason to stop trying, of course. Current issues exist for quite some time now, and I do have the feeling that GW1 skill balance was neglected recently. - TeleTeddy 09:04, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It appears Izzy plays some FPS game now instead of GW. Take a page from his book and find some other game to play - it's pretty clear any future maintenance for GW is going to be minimal at best - GW2 is coming and they have your money. GW is dead and they don't care about you until it's time for them to suck more money out of you - remember this and don't come back for GW2. The service for GW is getting pathetic lately and even simple things particularly in the areas of skill balance, or even just skill BUGS are getting overlooked and pushed back and are taking faaaaar too long to implement into the game. Take your money and support elsewhere - A-Net just lost my vote. 58.110.141.174 14:44, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Lovely update list there. Only one I disagree on is lod that skill is fine on its own. Shields up at 45 recharge is particulary nice but maybe giving it a cast time also would work?87.194.104.90 15:46, 2 October 2007 (UTC)Burton
 * Echo + Blackout ftw InfestedHydralisk  [[image:Shadow_Prison.jpg|19px]] 22:29, 4 October 2007 (UTC)


 * sigh* this is one of the reasons more people don't post and talk to the community, because it becomes this huge expectation. People post on this stuff in their free time, and communicating with large groups of people is hard and it's easy to say something wrong, give away some info or get yourself in trouble and overall the amount you gain from it is a lot less then what it takes to be effective at it. The moment you start expecting it you end up pushing people away. I play lots of games and if you think that isn't the case of every game designer you are vastly mistaken, the whole point of a game designer is someone who plays all games studies games and loves games. Yes I am playing TF2 but I play it in my spare time, because well I'm human and I get free time too : ). But that being said, I play guild wars a lot, I talk to GW players a lot and no matter what people think I will always do that, so please don't mistake my not posting on wiki in my free time as a representation of what I do as the main reason I do this is to open more communication with you all and let you know what goes on here at arenanet. Anyway thats my thoughts! ~Izzy @-&#39; 21:42, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * nice to hear from you Izzy, don't take the bitching of a few as indicitive as to how all of us feel. We greatly appreciate the work you do. Dargon 19:48, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see why people scream out for NERF's all the time. 1 build being better then another build doesn't mean that the first build is overpowered, its plain logical that if you have 6 points in air magic, fire magic. earth magic. beastmastery and markmanship. that you won't have such a good build to play with. GW is a game with more costumer support then i've ever seen anywhere, and maybe some skills are absolutely useless, but if you scream for a pvp balance every 10 seconds. they'll be making PvE harder in the meantime as well.Rhydeble 16:45, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Point 1:PvE is too easy. It might be worth playing if they did make it actually difficult at all.
 * Point 2:No one cares if a build is better than a build with no skills and 6 points in every ele and ranger attrib. Less strawman, please.
 * Point 3:Izzy needs to do better with the updates he does. And he also needs to stop taking months or even years to fix problems. --Edru viransu 16:52, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Interesting skill changes

 * I moved what I could an Archived the rest, please put the skill stuff in the skill suggestions pages, Thanks! ~Izzy @-&#39; 21:24, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the GW engine is capable of making these changes. I remain optimistic though. Although, I'm satisfied with the other skill changes the change I relaly want to be looked at is Shadow form. Jigoku 21:10, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The reccuring insecurity idea was awsome and so was the plague signet, shadow form doesnt need to be changed tho, ive never played it but ive been killed by those who use use the perma-shadowform build, which needs to be excecuted. I hope izzy agrees with you on plague signet which is, and have always been useless, and reccuring insecurity is another skill which is nerfed due to a build. --Cursed Angel 21:36, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Plague Signet is a nice change, the rest are kinda meh, and the SoJ nerf, LOL no not after the loot scaling. --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 21:50, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Shadow form - if you only have 100 hp and u lose 10hp a second for 10 seconds you will still die with out any additional healing, as you are suggesting sin will jump in somewhere, unleash all their combos then jump into shadow form and feel no retaliation and while running away + get healed for 300 or so when/if shadow form ends. Healing Signet on decent tactics can heal for 100+ and is not a spell so sins prbobly will be the new Obsidian Tanks that have no down time ever.
 * Shield of Judgment - is not the main thing when it comes to bot farming, Protective Spirit is, 55 did just fine with no SoJ for a very long time, it was just slower back then, as suggested people will just kill stuff around them using earth skills or any other KD conditional.
 * Amity - Warriors are normally killed last, so you can just shut them down, kill enemy casters and then stop using it. Still the downside of healing the enemy to full health is negotiated with duration almost as long as the recharge.
 * Peace and Harmony - getting just one energy regen seemed to be powerful enough to be Elite And be removed if you try to attack something. Getting +10 energy regen after a while is insane. Bonders could bond a party of 12 with no resistance and still have energy over. Biz 21:57, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

On shadow form I was sort of imagining a player sneaking behind enemy lines or into a base or something and that they would take off Shadow Form before dying (just before they strike). Shield of Judgement is the main damage dealer for 55's though and damage at the end isn't as consistent as the regular SoJ. Peace and Harmony would only give +10 energy regen for like 4 seconds(I think) and then it would have to be recast.Jigoku 22:18, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * MOst of those are pretty terrible... SoJ is a nerf, how do you casterspike with a skill that triggers if they attack with an ally? the damage is garbage as well btw. Most of those need the recharges adjusted accordingly. Plague signet is OK, but nobody is going to use it as an elite regardless.--67.164.57.110 23:43, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Did you have a bad day? O.o Jigoku 23:48, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 67.164.57.110 is right, recharges alone play huge part in the balancing, as suggested changes often change recharge to the point where you can have a permanent upkeep with +20% enchantment mod. Biz 09:03, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Just a note, due to the game engine mechanics, RI is not the first hex to be removed but always second on the stack after a new hex. [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 00:12, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I think many people agree that peace and harmony will never be any better even tho its useless as it is now. Shadow form just have to be fixed to stop perma-shadowform and amity have never been any real problem against anything, and neither have SoJ, try to think of a way to make Wastrel's Collapse useful, there are alot of those skills no one use. --Cursed Angel 00:22, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Doesn't that fix the perma-shadowform? =\ Amity sucks outloud and the skills I posted are a lot of skills no one uses. Ether way wish granted:


 * lol seriously you should be working for arenanet, cant say that izzy doesnt know how to balance but you can just come up with ideas just like that, it doesnt make it overpowered and doesnt make it suck, and still i would run it all day long if it was like that. --Cursed Angel 00:42, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I would volunteer in a heartbeat (If I could =[ =[ =[) Jigoku 01:44, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That is so overpowered it makes my eyes bleed : /. Edit: To explain....5-6 knockdowns for 5 energy with almost no cast time and 8 recharge? That is 10-12 seconds of knockdown every 8 seconds, for almost zero cost besides an elite. --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 02:00, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Deathwing got a point, Id guess its still a hex, but it dusn't remove itself after use of a skill. So unless enemy running extremely solid anti KD and Hex removals they will be on the ground All the time if more then one takes Wastrel's Collapse, imagine if 3-4 people take it =) then the opposition will spend next 30 seconds resting on their backs and then in spectator mode.
 * P.S. skill balancing is all about Balance not making skills so powerful you only need "One Skill Tactics", skills with powerful effects are meant to be expensive energy wise, energy is meant to be a major balancing factor where energy gain is either very conditional or marginal, recharge is all about placing the right skill in the right moment knowing if you mess up your chance you will have a X seconds to regret it, having as little as 2 seconds between end of effect that can be prolonged and reuse is not balanced. Biz 09:03, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Izzy's talk page just hit a new level of stupidity with this thread. - Auron 09:19, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * QFT. While the Plague Signet, RI, and Lyssa's Aura changes are worth looking at, the rest do not scream of a sense of balance. SF changes make new and improved obby tanks - get a bonder to counter the degen, bring Fleeting Stability, and there's almost nothing that can stop you. Lyssa's Aura's proposed new end clause is overpowered as hell. PnH makes SUPERBONDERLOLOL. BOND ALL OF ASPENWOOD AND ONLY WORRY ABOUT RANGE. Amity... You speak as though it's actually used anywhere. (For the record, immune to warrior spikes = BSurge.) SoJ: No. It's useful on 55s, nerfing it isn't going to stop the 55s, we have plenty of other options. Wastrel's Collapse: What the bloody hell were you thinking, tbh? Nothing has an offensive power with a range of "within earshot". Do you not understand how powerful knockdowns are? In GvG, bring perhaps three copies of it and the entire enemy party can't do much because they're on their backs a quarter of the time. Armond 09:27, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I bet it's easy to insult someone over the interwebs when you don't have to talk to their face Auron. I'm not even sure what skills your referencing biz. Peace and harmony? shadow form?. Maybe the knockdown should be nearby or adjacent? That way if people bring multiple copies it wouldn't really matter. I switched peace and harmony around though and I said amity sucks. Lyssa's aura overpowered how? stealing energy from people who are basically on top of you is overpowered? SF the new OB tank? it only lasts for 10 seconds(where you die at the end if you don't take it off)and you only have like half health if you take it off early Jigoku 09:42, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Minus 5 health degen is Very easy to counter, making it possible to never leave Shadow Form so whole idea is counterintuitive and I was referring to all 3, shouldn't be hard to see which and where =) Biz 14:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I added a remove all enchantments clause so all regeneration enchantments would be stripped. So that leaves them with what conviction? which you can only get up to +3 regen and even then you'd suffer 60 damage so you would have 40 left (when shadow from ends but before it heals) and then you get healed for 200 so you have 240 health when shadow form ends probably not enough health for a tank. Jigoku 19:49, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Wastrel's would be overpowered even if it were adjacent. Lyssa's all you have to do is run up to their monk and he's edenied without having any way of stopping it (in the middle of battle, some uber teams might be able to count when it ends, but the rest of us are only going to know by seeing a mesmer running up to us). PnH should be +1 every 2 seconds or so. SF you don't need to do anything - as I said, let the bonder give you plenty of regen, use fleeting stability, and sit there. (While you're investing in Earth Prayers and taking two other enchantments with you, grab Mystic Regen. Then they just have to use Watchful Spirit.) With an enchanting mod, deadly paradox, and perhaps Extend Enchantments (depending on how the recharge shifts around), you can keep it up permanently with no downside while the rest of your party nukes the absolute crap out of the other guys. Armond 09:53, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You can't cast any spells while using my shadow form. Isn't running into an enemies backline to steal -5 energy a little insane? added an all your enchantments are removed clause for shadow form which gets rid of regen enchants and also you won't need prot spirit while using the changed shadow form anywho. So it works out in the end. Jigoku 09:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

O HAI GUYS heres some random pointless skill updates thut i though wub be gud k. &mdash; Skuld 20:42, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Great, I can put up Shadow Form and I'll die the moment I run into anything that gets around it! At least before you might still survive, but with the degen, you're screwed.
 * If you want stealth for an assassin, take a look at WoW's rogue talents. GW just isn't set up, in its current form, for stealth sins - that said, WoW isn't set up for shadow steps or teleports. Armond 21:14, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Buff proposals
Izzy seems to be sort of busy lately, so I decided to make a summary of buff proposals all around the underpowered skill section. This list only contains skills that are listed in the appropriate section and tries to sum up the 'result' of the according discussion - you're free to continue the discussion, of course. I'd suggest, however, to read the according discussion in the underpowered section, first. Maybe this list can spare some time (that's what it's made for, at least).

This is an awesome list so I'll put my comments inline to help explain my thinking ~Izzy @-&#39; 22:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC) Assassin:
 * Enduring Toxin: Reduce recast to 5s (from 10s).
 * This doesn't really add to the Assassin much this skill isn't core to what the assassin does so it's way low on the buff list and this skill was nerfed because of SB/RI builds. ~Izzy @-&#39; 22:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Jagged Strike: Add the following line: This attack deals +5...17...20 damage if it hits.
 * This could probably use some tweaks, it's a super weak lead, but overall not a bad suggestion. ~Izzy @-&#39; 22:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Repeating Strike: Set activation time to 1/2s.
 * Interesting idea. ~Izzy @-&#39; 22:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This is better for all leads and off-hands.--BahamutKaiser 01:11, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Elementalist:
 * Wastrel's Collapse: --Completely underused bad skill. Add some damage, reduce 5 second time to 3 or so, or something.
 * Chain Lightning: Reduce cast time to 2s (previously 3s).
 * This skill is not what Air's does at core, (single target damage, and melee control) so it probable wont see any buffs for a while~Izzy @-&#39; 22:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * People are looking for valid alternatives to fire magic, alternatives only make sense if they are viable. Exhaustion + 3 seconds activation time is what I call not viable. Right now its much better idea to spam Deathly Swarm with a necro, sure it doesn't have 25% armor penetration, but its much better because it doesn't cause exhaustion, has very short recharge time and you are not forced to use an elite for energy management. I don't think reducing recharge on this would change what Air's does at core at all. 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Double Dragon: Increase range to nearby (previously adjacent), reduce recharge to 15s.
 * PBAOE is just such a tricky thing, this skill sees some use in PvPtypes where killing non moving NPC's it probably wont see a buff as when PBAoes get too good they become broken, also nearby would make this compete with Other fire Elites. ~Izzy @-&#39; 22:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Why wouldn't this compete with other elites? Should this elite be less opportune than another?--BahamutKaiser 21:07, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * And the WTF? award goes to...."also nearby would make this compete with Other fire Elites.". --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 02:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Can we please leave the "F" out of this, I'd like to keep this a discussion about the skills instead of immature critisizm.--BahamutKaiser 02:26, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but that has to be one of the most perplexing things I have read. It could possibly be a typo, and if so, then I apologize. If he did actually mean that this skill should not be buffed because it would compete with other fire elites, then my statement remains. Sorry if it is immature for you. --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 02:34, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Mockery doesn't solve anything, and when you have to basically get permission from a developer it doesn't help to be insulting, especially outside of adding a legitimate point. You can doubt, dislike or disagree and make a logical conclusion why such should be otherwise, but making insulting statements and vulgar acronyms just dismisses your imput from those who make the decisions here.--BahamutKaiser 02:41, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It is already dismissed, look at User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Underpowered Skills --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 02:44, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Lightning Surge: Add 25% armor penetration.
 * Not a horrible idea, I've always been sad Shatterstone has more damage then surge. ~Izzy @-&#39; 22:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Swirling Aura: Rework to: Ward Spell. You create a Swirling Aura at your current location. For 8...18...20 seconds, non-Spirit allies in this area have a 50% chance to block ranged attacks.
 * Ele's should just be weak vs rangers, thus this skill needs a reworked and it's on the large list of bad skills but probably wont see a tweak anytime soon. ~Izzy @-&#39; 22:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Elemental damage is already handicapped vs ranger, having a ranged defensive skill that isn't good enough to use doesn't change the legitimate advantage already there. With the power of projectile attacks being greater now with Rangers and Paragons, a good ranged defense skill is pretty much a must to counter projectile reliant builds.  But I wouldn't make this a ward, I would use the enchantment idea for This and magnetic proposed in the Ele Underpowered section.--BahamutKaiser 21:07, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Windborne Speed: Reduce cast time to 1/4s (previously 1s).
 * A bit scary but this could use a buff. ~Izzy @-&#39; 22:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Mesmer:
 * Air of Disenchantment: Extend range from adjacent to nearby. Reduce recast to 15s (previously 20s).
 * I went with faster activation time to give it a different feel ~Izzy @-&#39; 22:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Chaos Storm: Add following line: For every drained energy point, foes suffer 5...12...14 points of damage.
 * AOE damage is something we don't want to push anymore then we have thats the Eles Job.
 * then give mesmers back maelstrom. Chaos storm is awful, Maelstrom should've been a mesmer skill
 * AoE even on Elementist isn't covering enough ground to counter larger numbers and weak positioning, all AoE needs a serious upgrade. This however isn't really lacking in damage, compared to elemental AoE damage, this is armor ignoring, dealing approximately the same damage on most targets, and more on defended ones, greater AoE maybe, and perhaps it could be changed to do nothing except when a foe is using a skill, and deal greater damage and energy lose in that situation.  This ensures that it is only an AoE punishment effect and not a universal AoE damager.--BahamutKaiser 21:11, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * What if this skill applied a random condition on top of the e-denial and did so whenever a player used a skill, not just a spell. Even if that means doing no damage. I don't think this skill should ever be about AOE damage, but instead AOE pressure and something the likes we've never seen before. --Redfeather 09:21, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "AOE damage is something we don't want to push anymore then we have thats the Eles Job." very interesting because Energy Surge deals aoe dmg and got buffed, so what ? 31 october 2007


 * Stolen Speed: Increaste Cast speed reduction/buff from 25% to 33%, speed buff refers to spells that target a foe (previously only spells that targeted the hexed foe)
 * I've been wanting to tweak this some but I was waiting to make sure the hex meta was taken are off.


 * Tease: Convert to skill (previously Hex Spell)
 * This skill is just super wacky and I think is a bit complicated. ~Izzy @-&#39; 22:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it is appropriate as a hex, but it could use a reduced recharge so it can be used on two foes repeatedly, like 10 seconds. Personally, I find this skill very funny, and perhaps my favorite skill icon :)  It is like a game of tag and I could see this being particularly useful on casters and in use with shadowsteping away from melee units.--BahamutKaiser 02:30, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The reason OP suggested changing this to a non-hex skill is because for all the trouble a player does in order to apply it...it can be poofed so easily with hex removal.
 * I really like the idea to change it from a hex, because it opens up an interesting synergy with other mesmer hexs such as Clumsiness/Calculated Risk.
 * If it's at all possible why not try changing it to an enchantment. Yes, an enchantment you put on your enemy. I know it sounds odd, but maybe in a future test weekend try it out and see what happens. :D --Redfeather 09:39, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure the game engine simply doesn't support that, Redfeather. [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 10:04, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * What about if the player hits you Tease ends normally, but if the hex is removed with hex removal it does something special. I just think Tease would be oodles better if it wasn't so easy to remove considering how a bar needs to be made special just to land a Tease without being stomped. --Redfeather 04:20, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Monk:
 * Balthazar's Pendulum: Reduce recast to 1s (previously 5s).
 * This is being used in the Smiter Boons build for Arenas, so I would be worried about buffing this too much but it could be buffed soon. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:06, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Just make it a copy oh RoD, only cause a KD on trigger. Lord Belar 22:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Divine Intervention: Reduce recast to 15s (previously 30s)
 * This would scare the hell out of me, Maybe 20s or 25s first :P


 * Glimmer of Light: Add following line: If target ally wasn't enchanted, Glimmer of Light is recharged instantly.
 * interesting, this could probably be buffed sense the reason we nerfed it was smiting, and thats been dealt with. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:06, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Life Sheath: Reduce recast to 5s (previously 7s) and change game mechanics, that it always has its effect AFTER Protective Spirit etc - right now it depends on whether you cast LS or PS first, making it not viable for heros, for example.
 * Hard to change that actually. Just the way the system works. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:06, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Mark of Protection: Reduce recharge to 30s (previously 45s).
 * This skill is just very hidden hard to understand whats going on. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:06, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I dont see whats so hard to understand with it. It does the exact same thing Reversal of Fortune does except continuously over 10 seconds. //Problem. 03:08, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Peace and Harmony: Add: If this enchantment is removed prematurely, you gain 1...3...4 energy.
 * If this skill is good it goes against our princables for monk which is for energy management to be a big deal. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:06, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Change to 5/1/10- For 30...90 seconds, target ally gains +1...2 health regeneration, plus 1...3 health regeneration for each non-attacking ally within earshot. Peace and Harmony ends if that ally attacks. Lord Belar 22:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Purge Conditions: Reduce recast to 12s (previously 20s).
 * I actually want to increase this somewhat but with SoD going away I think RC will see some use.


 * Word of Healing: Change so that you can target any ally (including yourself).
 * Interesting change. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:06, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Necromancer:
 * Life Transfer: Reduce recast to 25s (previously 30s)
 * This is used a lot in 4v4 formates.
 * It does have a vastly longer recast than life siphon. I get that it is half the cast time, half the cost, and 2.6 times more potent, but it is also elite, and lasts half as long.  In comparison to a 2 second cast time, 30 seconds is really steep, as costly as it is, life siphon can be spread all around offering greater regeneration for a much longer time and more stability.  Not that this is really weak or anything, but infrequent skills are not fun to play, this could use a notch down in recharge, I would even sacrifice 1 point of life transfer for 5 or 10 seconds less recharge, it's plenty strong.--BahamutKaiser 01:08, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Used alot in 4v4 formats? Ok I don't RA or TA much but who would run Life transfer over something more useful such as Spoil Victor? It doesn't really make sense. SV is very powerful especially against monks. Longer duration, more harmful effect, much shorter recharge. It seems really unfair that a bad elite isn't getting the buffs it needs just because it's popular among more inexperienced necros. Now if it really is being used by serious TA teams then correct me....but I honestly would be surprised if it was. It could start by using a much shorter recharge. Maybe decrease it to 12-15, lower the degen, regen, then decrease duration to match the recharge. Maybe even add in some other side effects, im not sure what though. P A R A S I T I C 00:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Pain of Disenchantment: Rework stats to 5/1/10 (previously 10/2/12)
 * This skill could probably use a rework.


 * Vocal Minority: Rework to: For 5...17...20 seconds, target foe and all nearby foes cannot use Shouts or Chants and suffer from 1...2...2 life degeneration. Increase energy cost to 15 (previously 10).
 * This skill does a good job of stopping paragons now the issue is the fact it only works in a hex build. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I have to seriously disagree, for a skill that only works against a remote function, it really needs to be more reliable, having an AoE is only relavent if a team is over relying on shouts, so it is perfectly fine to widen the radius to area, and the recharge needs to be much lower that way it cannot be easily overcome with hex removal, powerful hex removal might beat this, but the foe should be hard worked in order to take it off several foes and keep it off constantly, this definetly needs a 10 second recharge. An effective counter and better AoE damage opposition need to be a reliable option in order to ensure difficulty for a paragon and shout reliant team, simply ensuring the effectiveness of this will greatly reduce the need to suppress every paragon ability primarily to manage the power of paragons in synergy.  The shout reliant counters are not good enough til shout reliant builds come off the complaint list.--BahamutKaiser 21:21, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Just cut the recharge to 10s and this will be fine. Lord Belar 22:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Larger AoE is only an advantage if multiple shout users are gathered together, in which case, the counter needs to be even more effective, with no additional effect, it has almost nothing to gain from dousing non-shouting units with shout denial, lower recharge and larger AoE ensure that this offers an effective safeguard against shout reliant builds.--BahamutKaiser 02:41, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Wail of Doom: Rework to: Sacrifice 10% Health, and target foe is interrupted. If target foe was attacking, that foe is weakened and all of his attack skills are disabled for 5...17...20 seconds. Reduce energy cost to 10 (previously 15).
 * Interesting idea. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Paragon:
 * "Can't Touch This!": Move to No Attribute (previously Command), make stats 5/0.75/20 (previously 10/0/20) and rework to: Echo. For 10 seconds, the next time a touch skill is used on target ally, the touch skill fails and "Can't Touch This!" is reapplied.
 * The problem with this skill is it's so hard to see the skill is on someone I think stuff should jsut be balanced assuming this skill isn't around.
 * Just make it possible to target people other than yourself, the numbers are fine on this. Lord Belar 22:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Bladeturn Refrain: Rework to: Echo. For 20 seconds, target non-Spirit ally takes 3...7...8 less damage from melee attacks. This Echo is reapplied every time a Chant or Shout ends on that ally. Increase recharge to 20s (previously 8s).
 * I think increased defense on the paragon is a bit scary, I've been having to nerf it so much id rather not buff it. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Ranger:
 * Magebane Shot: Add following line: If your target is enchanted, Magebane Shot cannot be blocked.
 * interesting ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Poison Arrow: Rework to: Elite Bow Attack. If Poison Arrow hits a poisoned foe, you strike for +3...13...15 damage. Otherwise your target becomes Poisoned for 5...17...20 seconds, if Poison Arrow hits.
 * This could just use a little longer poison and it would be fine. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Longer duration isn't going to increase it's value in most applications, just like jagged strike, it is pointless to reuse on the same target, and shooting a poisonous arrow at each foe isn't really productive, it would be better if this had more recharge and just a little damage, even if it is only damage if the foe is already poisoned.--BahamutKaiser 21:32, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Punishing Shot: Add following line: If your target was using a skill, it is disabled for additional 1...7...9 seconds.
 * has potential ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Tiger's Fury: Increase attack speed buff to 33%.
 * we nerfed this a long time ago because of how strong thumpers where. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Guess that nerf didn't work quite as intended. :) Lord Belar 22:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Ritualist:
 * Dulled Weapon: Rework to: Hex Spell. For 5...17...20 seconds, weapon spells have no effect on target foe, and target foe cannot achieve a critical hit. Increase recharge to 15s (previously 12s).
 * This really isn't something the rit should be doing. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Change to: 5/1/10- Weapon Spell. For X seconds, target ally deals +5...25 blunt damage, but cannot achieve a critical hit. Lord Belar 22:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Soul Twisting: Make it target enemy spirits, too, and make Binding Rituals cast under Soul Twisting cost 50% less energy.
 * We could use more spirit counters. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Wailing Weapon: Reduce recast to 15s (previously 25s).
 * This is all ready insanly powerful in small formates. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Are you mistaking this skill for Warmonger's Weapon? I've seen this skill used only once in RA that I can remember. I seen it on a Spirit Strength Ritualist once too. Warmonger's Weapon can totally shut down some casters. This skill is a minor annoyance to attackers, at best. --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 03:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Destruction: Increase damage area to Earshot (previously In the area)
 * I don't like damage going over area damage. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * With this much delay, it really should, it takes no effort to destroy this before it reaches potential, or escape the area effect, Area damage as a whole needs a serious upgrade, it constitues a counter toward poor positioning and reliance on numbers.--BahamutKaiser 21:38, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Warrior:
 * Cleave: Add following line: If you hit a foe that suffers from a condition, you gain 1...2...2 adrenalin.
 * Current state of mind is warriors need nerfing Cleave is actually the highest DPS skill for warriors, it just has no deep wound or versitilty so it's not pvp friendly. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Hundred Blades: Add following line: This skill is unblockable.
 * This is on my list to tweak once physical damage is inline. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The easiest and most useful way to improve it is reduce the recharge so you can use it more, it shouldn't be double hit, AoE and unblockable, too veratile.--BahamutKaiser 21:42, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Change to 3s recharge, just like many other war energy skills. Lord Belar 22:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * From 8 to 3? that sounds like too much, I wouldn't go below 5, it's perfectly feasible to fit in other attack skills.--BahamutKaiser 00:56, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 4, maybe. Other warrior attack skills are 3, and this is elite. <S>70.146.153.43 02:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)</S> EDIT:I hate being auto logged out. Lord Belar 02:53, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Magehunter's Smash: Add following line: This attack deals +5...17...20 damage if it hits.
 * Probably could use a buff somewhere not sure if this is it. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Signet of Strength: Reduce recharge to 20s (previously 45s).
 * This could used being buffed. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Skull Crack: Lower adrenaline cost to 7 (previously 9).
 * Warriors shouldn't be countering casters, which is one of the reasons this skill has always been so high adren cost. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Change to: 6a/0.25/0- Skill. Target touched foe takes 15...45 damage and is interrupted. If that foe was activating a non-attack skill, they are knocked down. Lord Belar 22:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

- TeleTeddy 11:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It's a nice start but what about other underpowered skills like Withdraw Hexes and Signet of Disenchantment? Jigoku 15:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I like the direction this is going with most of the skills, some are a little over the top and some I just don't understand well enough. I don't agree with unblockable hundred blade, I would rather see it strike 3 times or hit a wider selection of foes in one way or another, but I'm not so sure it is underpowered.  Either way, there are alot of overpriced and overrecharged skills, and I see alot of serious ones not addressed.  It's alot of work to go through for sure, and kind of imprudent with such low response from Izzy on our contributions.  The best suggestion would be the one where Izzy is either relocated to or replaced with a full time skill redesigner for GW1 who can get some serious work done that way we can see a broad overhaul on a majority of skills and skill functions til it is running 100%.--BahamutKaiser 15:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * That's what it was supposed to be from the beginning: A nice start. This list shouldn't be considered complete, not in the slightest. It is just approximately two hours of reading and summarizing various discussions in the underpowered skills section. I tried to focus on topics where there was little disagreement, ignoring topics that didnt come with a reasonable proposal. The ultimate goal of this list is to fasten the process of skill buffing by helping out - nothing more, nothing less. - TeleTeddy 16:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Cleave and Hundred Blades could then become very overpowered!.... Hundred blades charges sun and mmon very fast and the potential for so many attacks unblockable + conjure damage and probably splinter as well would be very dangerous. I think warriors are nicely balanced as they are. -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 16:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Nice list, but it looks like you picked out selections you liked from the Underpowered section, there are more alternatives.--71.251.177.38 19:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, there are more alternatives - I tried to pick the one with the most approval, but feeling that listing multiple alternatives would make the list too confusing, I had to decide on one, in the end. - TeleTeddy 09:06, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I would love to see word of healing like that, ever since gw became an elite driving game for monks, there elites became quickly slim on choices and this would allow healing monks to add a new useful elite.  A nti 


 * Chronic, this is about buffing underpowered skills and adding diversity - the fact that warriors are balanced nicely (I think so, too) shouldn't prevent you from adding alternatives. I dont think Cleave (being something like a little brother to Dragon Slash) or Hundred Blades would be too powerful, but, however, I neither think I'm always right. Maybe only one of those two attacks should be unblockable or something like that. - TeleTeddy 09:06, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * When looking at skills to buff you really have to ask what making a given skill good will add to the game. All but the most flawed skills can be made strong with the right numbers, so it's a question of if a skill should be good rather than how most of the time.  I disagree with many of the skills chosen to buff here; I think those skills being good would be worse for the game than the skills they would be replacing. -67.161.44.231 21:36, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * If any of the listed skills would replace another skill after being buffed, you can consider this particular buff a failure. None of these skills are meant to replace, it's all about diversity and having alternatives. - TeleTeddy 08:03, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the post, sorry I haven't posted much on wiki, just burned myelf out a bit on it :) ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * No buff on Paragons underpowered skills ---> Sad panda. --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 20:02, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Once the paragon is under control balance wise well see some buffs to bring the unused skills up to the proper level, the problem is he's still in flux now so buffing useless skills is hard because you don't know what to buff them too. ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:33, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * So...Izzy...when can we expect a Strike as one buff or a Scavenger's Focus buff? I have never seen anyone using these skills at all since the minor damage buff on these. I would go for 1...12...15 damage at SaO and 5...13...15 and additional damage when you hit a foe suffering from a condition 4...9...10 for SF. Just wondering when these get a buff, they really need 1. InfestedHydralisk  [[image:Shadow_Prison.jpg|19px]] 22:28, 18 October 2007 (UTC)