User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Overpowered Skills/Ranger/Archive 1

Nerf it, because we can. Readem  Sorry, I'll stop trolling now.  07:36, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Why nerf a skill that's already not worth a skill slot? --J0ttem™ 13:11, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Nerf it, because we can. I printed this comment out on soft paper and used it to wipe my ass. --74.43.236.132 19:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If you nerf it, it'll still be used just as much in serious play: none. Who gives a shit? --72.211.155.160 21:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Apparently no one can detect sarcasm.--71.251.177.24 06:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * AS A SHOCK AXE W/E I RLLY AGRE WITH THE OP THROW DIRT RECKS MY SKILLBAR IT NEED 2BE FIXD. THROW DIRT SHOULD HAEV 4 SEKOND AKTIVATION AND BE EZINTRUPTED THEN I CULD WIN MOAR. --88.191.13.5 11:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, massivly over powered. (just in case you didnt know, I was being sarcastic) --Lou-Saydus[[image:User Lou-Saydus Hail Storm.jpg|19px]] 20:51, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Dude stop trolling the forum! Servant of Kali 06:54, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I dont think a wiki is a forum :P--Atlas Oranos 17:41, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I have to say, that after doing research, there are only 6 preparations that have a duration of 24 seconds: Expert's Dexterity, Read the Wind, Apply Poison, Ignite Arrows, Kindle Arrows, and Scavenger's Focus. Out of that, 2 are elite, which leaves RtW, apply poison, ignite, and kindle. Apply is by far the strongest of them all, as the rest only do extra damage. If you look at every other preparation that isn't elite, none besides those 4 have higher durations than 12, especially the ones that cause a condition (interrupt I'm gunna treat as a condition in this case). Apply is overpowered in its duration, as a ranger spec'd normally in expertise (usually about 11-14 depending upon the build) can easily reduce the energy cost of it to about 7 or 8 energy. Furthermore, as a preparation, there are only a small handful of skills that can be used to interrupt it, all of them (not including KD's) being physical, something easily negated by Natural Stride. I feel that apply poison is overpowered in the sense that it is not easily interruptable, has a recharge of 1/2 its duration, and has the ability to be useful without points in wilderness, something almost any ranger would put points into due to things like natural stride and unguent. My recommendation is that this skill either be given the status "Easily Interruptable", which would give characters a better chance to challenge it, or put the duration at 12 to make it more active. At the moment it just seems too powerful in this case as a "use and forget buff".--John deathblade 02:10, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Where to begin... first off, "Easily Interruptible"? What makes this 2 second cast preparation any harder to interrupt than any other preparation? The poison condition offers -4 degen, which translates into 8 dps. Hardly considered overpowered. Its strength comes from the fact that it covers conditions (like cripple) and that it is easily spread around (cycling through targets). It's a skill that shines with player aptitude, which are sorely needed in this game. Hardly a "use and forget buff". --Tensei 02:44, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If you use this skill as a "Use and forget buff" the you are playing badly and using it baddly. As has been poiinted out its hardly any pressure when not used correctly, if anything it just fuels an RC easy heals. But when used correctly can cover other much more effective conditions. It seems you've simply looked at the numbers and thought 'oh this must be overpowered' without actually thinking about how its used. There are a few people posting skills here that seem to want to nerf anything that is remotely usefull in game. -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 03:24, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a hallmark Ranger skill and is in no way overpowered. You might as well ask for nerfs to Healing Signet or Animate Bone Horror, although as ChronicinabilitY says, there seems to be no shortage of fear-mongering going on here. Arshay Duskbrow 08:55, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Condition removal is so good right now that tab+spacing with a poisoner's bow just isn't as strong as it used to be. IMO, because of the extremely strong state of condition removal, this is a balanced skill. --Pork soldier 09:18, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * LOL Errr 09:48, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It was balanced before widespread RCs, Draws, and Mend Touches -_-.--Tensei 17:01, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Just because this is the only thing used doesn't mean its overpowered - the real situation is this is the only thing worth a damn, and everything else sucks. &mdash; Skuld 18:59, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's funny. The prep that causes 4 degen is on the overpowered page, and the prep that causes 3 degen is on the underpowered page. You guys aiming for a 3.5 degen on both of them? --Deathwing 19:44, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Poison is a 24 second long prep and Barbed is 18 second long prep. Poison is a normal skill Barbed is easily interrupted. Barbed only works on arrows. Done25 20:18, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * And that matters? AP is on permanently, BA is on permanently. The easily interrupted thing doesn't make much sense, but how often are you going to be needing to use AP or BA while under attack? BA is also cheaper energy-wise. As for the use on other weapons, how often is that done? --Deathwing 20:41, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * On an axe warrior? Rather common I would say. And yes you want to renew your preps in battle. What do you think happenes to a condition when a monk sees it? Done25 20:49, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, he wands you? How does a monk removing conditions having anything to do with you using AP or BA while you are under attack? If an Assassin or Warrior runs up to you and starts wailing on you, is your first thought "Oh damn, need to renew Apply Poison"? --Deathwing 21:00, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No. It's my first thought when the monk removes it. When a fighter starts hitting on me I active my run skill. Done25 21:03, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * So then you agree that the easily interrupted is irrelevant? If you are under attack, renewing your prep usually isn't a high priority. --Deathwing 21:07, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

(resetting indent) First off, when I said that it was a "use and forget" skill, I meant that I see too many rangers use the skill, then just start going "tab, fire, tab, fire". Yes, its use as a cover skill is good, but what should make it better then barbed arrows? If anything, barbed should be better due to the fact that poison causes more degen then bleeding, as a result it causes more damage. Second, easily interruptable was only to allow melee to have a chance to stop it. I dont know how many times I have either seen or even done to a warrior a shot of poison that he couldnt remove because he wasnt a monk. While yes, PvP should be balanced mainly on GvG and HA, I still feel that its wrong to balance only on that and not on things like RA and TA (yes hero battles is messed up atm so im not including that). RA and TA are other forms of PvP and as a result anything that is overpowered there should have some say in balancing, if not as much as GvG and HA but still some say, and frankly I feel that forcing either a X/Mo on characters, hoping for a monk, or playing luck and hoping poison will wear off before you die when your low on health shows that apply poison can be overpowered a bit. Despite that, my hopes are at least that it will become like barbed arrows by making it easily interruptable and/or cutting down the duration.--68.193.12.177 01:35, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That was me btw I forgot to log in :P--John deathblade 01:45, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Or you could go straight for the problem and buff Barbed Arrows -_-. --Tensei 01:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think that Apply Poison forces /Mo secondaries. I used to believe I needed Mending Touch on my Warrior in RA, but I replaced it with Disrupting Chop and overall it works better. The key to beating a Ranger is him not interrupting your Healing Signet, or you simply killing him before he kills you. If anything is forcing /Mo secondary it's the Assassins with their stacks of conditions including a covered Deep Wound. --TimeToGetIntense 04:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Apply has zero to do with /Mo secondary and mending touch - the reasons people are running mending touch are A: blind and B: SP sins. If you can pull the deep wound + bleed/poison off while an SP sin is spiking you you're almost guaranteed to live. --Pork soldier 19:36, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You are all fools! Though this may be terribly overpowered, we have forgotten a combination that still people dread to this day. Barrage+Signet of Strength! Barrage Spike in GvG! OMG nerf NOW PLX! Readem (talk *gwwcontribs ) 06:53, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It recharges in 10 seconds
 * Costs barely anything
 * Can interrupt and disable skills for 20 seconds
 * Better than most mesmer interrupts

To balance this I think the amount of time disabled should be scaled with expertise since it causes such a powerful effect with little or no investment in Expertise.Jigoku 12:48, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know what mesmer interrupts you've been using but this has a half-second cast time+arrow flight time.  —ǥȓɩηşɧ  〚 ₮ /ḉ〛 00:09, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * actually half a second cast time = .25s before the arrow shoots (all attack skills with activation time include the 'after-attack' in the time, so the attack actually hits at half the activation. This is why there's .5s activation attacks and only .25 for spells. Cause .5 attacks are, in fact, .25). If you have an IAS (rare with a bow though), it's even faster than that and it's like a FC Mesmer (ofc you still have flight time, but with Recurve it's really short). But that being said, DShot is a VERY good skill, but it should NOT be touched. It promotes very good play, can break stupid webs of defense, is player-skill based, etc. It's definitely a top rate skill, but it's also a good one for the game. Leave it as is. Patccmoi 00:28, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There are so many ways that players can fail with this skill (block, terrain, not close enough for flight time). lol, just wow.. lol. --Tankity Tank 00:36, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * God, here we go again... "OMG a skill is effective and widely used! It must be too powerful NERFPLX!!" So tired of this...just like with Apply Poison, this is a bedrock Ranger skill and is in no way overpowered. End of story. Arshay Duskbrow 01:22, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * When I said it had an advantage over mesmer interrupts, I meant that it recharges faster (bar psychic distraction) and disables longer than any mesmer interrupt around. Not to mention with expertise it also costs less. I'm not saying it should be bashed in to the ground I'm merely saying that with most mesmer interrupts like psychic distraction or power return you need to invest in to their respective attributes to get a good effect out of them. While with distracting shot you don't need to invest into expertise to get the 20 second disable effect. Jigoku 02:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Unlike mesmer interrupts you actually have to hit someone with d shot. D shot is dodgeable, blockable, interruptible, susceptible to physical shutdown by blind and susceptible to physical shutdown by hex. And you can also use terrain to avoid it. And you have to be close enough to get the arrow there in time. --Tankity Tank 04:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * And mesmer interrupts have nasty side effects like energy drain instead of shutting down a single skill for a few seconds.  —ǥrɩɳsɧƿoɲ  〚 ₮ /ḉ〛 04:36, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Energy drain can be mitigated. Losing a skill can't. This skill is probably balanced in the 8v8 formats, but is grossly overpowered in TA where those mitigations (block, etc.) are less feasible.72.211.155.160 08:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well Mesmers will have Power Lock in MoR soon to be even more annoying in TA. And nerfing a skill because of TA would be stupid unless it dominates TA to the point where every single team runs the same build. Atm though this isn't the case at all, and while DShot is extremely powerful in TA, it doesn't change the fact that it's not overpowered Patccmoi 16:20, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Needs more guardian and/or stances and/or physical shutdown IMO. D shot isn't grossly overpowered in TA, it's more likely that you're being grossly outplayed. I say this as someone who's been on both ends of the gross outplaying :P Some TA teams are overwhelmingly strong. --Tankity Tank 22:15, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not basing my assessment on comparisons of player skill. I understand that there are counters, but all require devoting huge amounts of attention to counter a single skill. A monk shouldn't have to use a block stance to have a chance of casting guardian so his necro can have a chance of casting reckless, which is exactly what winds up happening. The canonical counters to dshot aren't things that get any better with player skill, but dshot is, so in a match between two skilled TA teams the entire strategy revolves around whose ranger (since 90% of the decent teams run one, another clue that they're insane in that format) can stay clean. Not saying that things should be balanced for TA, but it *is* a dominant skill in that format. --72.211.155.160 17:59, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


 * "The canonical counters to dshot aren't things that get any better with player skill, ... clean." Umm, dodging arrows?


 * You all seem to miss the point here. Most people won't dodge distracting shot because they're using a skill, and are therefore IMMOBILE. Saying you can dodge an interrupt is a stupid point to make, because you can't without cancelling your skill, so you get interrupted either way, which I realise is better than getting a skill disabled for 20 seconds, but still. --Ckal Ktak 09:36, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * However, blindness, block and Blurred Vision all work perfectly. Nicky Silverstar 15:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, I agree with a post above that the extra recharge needs to scale with expertise. --Zarfol 23:53, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You forgot some points on your list
 * Does close to no damage.
 * ... except 20s poison. --72.211.155.160 07:41, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If you're going to mutilate someone else's post, at least be intelligent about it. Nowhere on D shot does it say "this skill adds 20 seconds of poison."  If you have a problem with Apply Poison either because you don't comprehend its usefullness or because you are bad at the game, post your concerns above.  Thank you. Shard
 * Can be dodged.
 * Can miss if you are blind or have a blinding hex.
 * Has Flight Time, reducing the chance a reflex interrupt will work.
 * Can be blocked
 * Can be obstructed.
 * The fact is that although Dshot looks good on paper and in Random Arenas, neither of those two things can be carried to "how good is this skill in high level play?" Dshot only adds pressure if you actually interrupt something. Otherwise, you just wasted it, along with the damage you would have done if you had attacked.  Shard 10:53, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Remove "can be dodged" from that list, people using skills can't dodge at the same time. --Ckal Ktak 11:57, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Most mesmer interrupts don't do damage ether(except power spike); How many times has terrain truly saved anyone from arrows....I would expect very few times and if arrows were blocked by terrain you could just move around it. Of course it can be blocked or the arrow can miss if your blinded but so can every other bow attack skill. Jigoku 15:04, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Terrain saves good players from arrows ALL the time. A good ranger won't shoot his dshot in the wall, but he won't necessarily manage to get in range in time either. How do you think people managed to throw up Aegis in GvG when a Ranger was on the other team? They went behind a wall or any other thing blocking line of sight... Patccmoi 19:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * In response to Ckal Ktak, yes you can dodge while casting. Try tapping escape. In fact, you could even get hit and take the 14 damage, then start casting again.  It's hard to see a mes interrupt coming because they take .15 seconds to use, but a .25 attack skill with flight time is easy to cancel against. Also, hiding behind things vs an interrupt ranger is what good players do, so yes terrain does save you if you're smart about it, especially if you're standing next to a wall. Shard 23:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This is another case of "Nerf cuz gud". Readem   Sorry, I'll stop trolling now.  23:18, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

@Readem Thanks for contributing nothing to the conversation! @Rest Yes because you know on every map there's some sort of obstructing terrain nearby when your being barraged with arrows. (/sarcasm). Unless, I'm missing something and "Smart" players conjure rock walls from their orifices. :p Jigoku 02:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Unlike most of Readem's comments this one did add to the conversation. If you can't find terrain to hide behind on any given map then you're a bad player. --Tankity Tank 03:48, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * All my comments make sense! Just 0<1/2 go unappreciated/unseen as I hate being known on this Wiki. Readem   Sorry, I'll stop trolling now.  03:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

imo 'this is a good skill, not an overpowered one' is all that needed to be said here, but everyone wants to seem smart so they over-explain and over-detail everything. readem's comments are my favorite comments, they are simple, true (most of the time ;), and to the point. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090. 08:23, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * We've over-explaining it because that's typically what you do in an intelligent argument or debate. You need evidence.  If you write an essay for English 250 saying "This skill is broken because it's good," you would get a super-F.  Not everyone has a brain, so we explain things for those people. Shard 20:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

All I have to see to the above comment is "We've over explaining?" O.o what?. Everyone (yes even me *Gasp*) is entitled to their own opinion how about you (By you I mean pretty much everyone replying) try to disagree with mine without questioning my intelligence or being extremely rude. All I wanted was the disable duration reduced to 15 seconds or scaling the disabling so stop biting my head off :D. Jigoku 17:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

You shouldn't nerf a skill just because it's good and sees too much action. I daresay the reason why this skill is used often is because it is one of the FEW useful Ranger skills. The solution is to make viable alternatives, not make Rangers more useless than they already are. - Anon

If anyone doesn't mind I'm just going to go ahead and archive this. Jigoku 11:07, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

This skill essentialy adds +100 damage at 15 Marksmanship, and yet it still stacks with apply poison. This skill, while actually making non-touch rangers in alliance abttles a viable option, is still a bit overwhelming. Perhaps change all of the +damage into added burning duration so that it can at least be mitigated by those who can cure conditions. --Ckal Ktak 13:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What about replacing the damage bonus with fire damage so it's affected by armour? -- Gordon Ecker 00:15, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There are many other skills that can deal this amount of damage and directly as well. This is an arrow, it can miss, be dodged or blocked. And a lot of the damage is a condition which is removable. It has a high(ish) energy cost to balance this and IMO it's not overpowered at all especially in Balanced play. It's not as if everyone is running the BA, the BHA and Cripshot's are other good alternatives that aren't particularly overshadowed by BA and still see a lot of use. It seems as if this is yet another skill where someone has looked at the numbers and thought "it must be overpowered" without actually thinking about the state of the game. -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 00:39, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Please, please leave this skill alone. It is one of the very few strong Ranger elites, but it is not overpowered. Chronicinability gives plenty of good reasons, and here's another: If you already have someone on your team throwing around burning, an Ele for instance, this loses a lot of its appeal. It's powerful and useful because it's a potent stand-alone damage skill, one that Rangers had been badly needing. I'm not exactly unbiased, but I believe it is a balanced skill as it is. This trend of wanting to nerf any skill that's currently useful is tiresome. Arshay Duskbrow 01:05, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the degen cap and the fact that conditions don't stack with eachother are both limiting factors. -- Gordon Ecker 01:51, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see BA as IMBA at all, I've ganked plenty of bad players who use it. Now, if I were serial-ganked by bad players solely because this skill was ZOMGSUPERUBER then I'd think differently. As it stands, I think this skill is just fine. By the way, physical shutdown hexes really rock a BA ranger's world, every BA bar packs mending touch but very few pack hex removal. --Tankity Tank 02:10, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "There are many other skills that can deal this amount of damage and directly as well"
 * Name one non-Searing-Flames skill that can do 100+ damage every 5 seconds. Name an attack skill that adds 100 damage to its regular attack damage.  None.  The burning is a condition, but it takes 1 second to notice, and another second to remove, assuming that your conditions guy has nothing else to worry about on the 7 other players in your team.  This means at its WORST, this skill adds +58 damage for the low low cost of 5-6 energy. This skill needs to have its extra damage removed.  It should be a more intensive version of Poison Arrow.  No extra damage; just the condition. Shard 04:48, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Mark of Rodgort, a non-elite. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090. 04:59, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You've got it the wrong way around. If anything, Poison Arrow needs to be buffed with extra damage. It's useless as it currently stands. Arshay Duskbrow 06:04, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * As stated before, this is an arrow, so dodgeable and blockable. Besides BA can more easily be disrupted compared to SF and btw Searing Flames and BA are elite, and SF does +100dmg and SF won't be nerfed so i don't know why BA should be nerfed in this case, especially since SF can do AoE dmg. This isn't the best comparision you could have made :p As Chrono said, BA doesn't put BHA or Crip'shot into the nearest dustbin, in GvG for example this ismainly used to gank. If you expect less damage, people are likely to turn to the other two elites. They are even some trappers and Tranquility/Renewal Rangers that wander around sometimes. And i see lots of Conjure-dual shot-kindle arrow or brutal weapon/splinter weapon-kindle arrow-dual shot rangers in CM, Alliance Battles, RA and even TA. Rangers still have the choice here, besides BA is to be used carefully, if you just spam it everywhere on recharge, you'll run OoM and won't be able to help your team by disrupting your opponents. And with Barrage, BHA+Epidemic or BA+Epidemic, this elite doesn't overwhelm PvE elite skills options for Rangers. I don't think this should be changed really.  Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 07:51, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

(reset indent) This skill may seem overpowered on paper, but in play it's merely a good elite Ranger skill, a rarity if you ask me. Izzy, if you do anything with this skill to make it less effective, IMO reducing the direct bonus damage by a little, 10 points maximum, or the burning duration by one second (14hp provided it's not removed), would be plenty. | GD Defender /  contribs 08:07, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * As pointed out before, this is one of the few Ranger elites that are viable. The rest of the options are just craptastic (i.e: who the hell is going to bring Archer Signet and friends.) When Izzy decides to fix every other Ranger bow attack, then we can have a serious discussion on this skill. --Tensei 18:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ideally in a "balanced" game *ahem* you want every skill, card, item, etc. to be usable. If this gets nerfed, have you thought hmm...maybe other skills might get buffed?  Archer's signet sucks now, but look at how bad Dwayna's Kiss and Mirror of Disenchantment used to be. The bottom line is that this attack skill adds 100 damage at its best and 50ish at its worst, making it the best attack skill in the game, aside from deep-wound-causing kills, which are incomparable. Also, don't compare 6 energy attack skills to 15 energy ele skills. Shard 21:35, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * BA the best attack skill in the game, probably not. Besides if you consider the energy pool of a Ranger and one of an E, and if you consider Expertise and energy management E skills, then you get something that can be compared :p Bows have a very low DPS potential, in the sense that it takes ~2s to throw an arrow and this skill allows a ranger to deal powerfull damages at once. If you remove BA's extra damage, then it won't be used anymore. Why ? Because you won't be able to spike with it and people will use other skills. for example, do you see Crip'Shot rangers using their elite to help in spike? Not really, they only use it to cripple the target before the spike so it won't flee and then follow up with Savage and Distracting Shot to deal extra damage. The -10 degen with poison and burning in a spike does about 20-40dmg since a spike lasts 1-2s. You directly deal the same amount with non elite ranger attacks for instance (marauder's shot i.e). It seems the only problem you have with this skill is the +100 dmg every 5s for 10e (5 with expertise). Marauder's Shot does the same bonus damage and it's non-elite. Marauder's Shot is balanced, does anybody disagree with this? Then if you consider that BA is elite, 5s burning and no disableing (besides disableing doesn't matter unless you're going to be spiked in the next 5s) isn't too much imo. Based on this skill, then the only nerf that could be done to BA is making it 6s reload instead of 5s, which won't change anything to the skill.You could barely reduce by 2 second the burning duration that's all.  If you manage to convince ppl that Marauder's Shot is overpowered, you'll be able to 'maybe' change something to BA but as far as this discussion has gone, nothing obviously overpowered as been found about this skill. However buffing other Rangers Elites seems really good to me, but this has nothing to do with BA no ? Just make a subject about those Rangers elites you want to buff under the underpowered rangers skills section. ^^ (and Tankity perfectly resumed the situation on its post below)   Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 10:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I would be perfectly happy if other ranger elites got buffed to the extent that I don't see every ranger in alliance battles using this or that accursed touch build. It's nice to go up against varied enemies, makes the game so much more fun. --Ckal Ktak 22:27, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the reason Burning Arrow is percieved as being overpowered is that it is the only single-target Marksmanship elite geared purely towards damage. The other elites have a damage effect and another effect, such as Energy gain or interruption, or only have a non-damage effect. -- Gordon Ecker 01:11, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * So after a page of discussion the issue has changed: BA isn't overpowered and the lack of varied ranger builds in AB is annoying. I'd love to see more variety in ranger builds but wrecking a reasonable skill is not a good way to get to that goal. By wrecking BA and forcing people to use other skills you'd just remove BA from play, limiting variety further. That's a bad solution. --Tankity Tank 01:56, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * @Azul, you can't honestly say it isn't the best attack skill in the game. It's second grade math.  100 > 30 (30 ~ what other attack skills add).  How do you know it is supposed to be used for spiking?  Did you invent the skill?  The only reason it's used for spiking is because it adds 100 damage, duh.  Rangers aren't supposed to have good DPS, that's what warriors are for.  Rangers can solo practically everything with it because of the immense amount of life loss it causes.  Being elite gives it the right to be godly?  No.  Balanced means balanced.  There aren't different levels of it.  I don't have to convince anybody that Marauder's is broken, this section isn't about Marauder's, it's about Burning Arrow.  If Burning Arrow was fine, it wouldn't be one of the only two ranger elites in high-level competitive play.  Get your facts together. It was exceedingly hard for me to keep flames out of my post based on the amount of stupid things that have been said in this section, just to let you know. Shard
 * Opportunity cost is a balancing factor, and tying up the elite slot is a much greater opportunity cost than tying up a regular skill slot. -- Gordon Ecker 05:19, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This isn't meant to spike only, but it is best used in this particular case imo, you can also use it to pressure actually but it does really well in a spike. I think you misunderstood a bit some parts of my post : yeah it is used to spike because of the kinda instant 100dmg i said it in my previous post and no, rangers aren't supposed to have good DPS (i never said that) but if they don't have good dps then ONE elite skill that is able to deal very good damage AT ONCE can help them not in this DPS case (you won't spam BA every 5s) but rather to do a great amount of dmg at once (so best used in spikes), leaving the dps thing to things like health degen caused by Apply Poison (which isn't huge but helps covering other conditions for example). Rangers can solo almost everything with this well yes they can use it on almost everybody for the same result (60-100dmg according to AL) it helps because it does great pressure but what kills you is more Healing Signet's disruption than BA's damage, i see that way or what kills you is being attacked by both ranger and warrior, physical dmg + disruption + degen = huge pressure. Rangers have also been really good at soloing things because they can survive more time than lots of other characters (natural stride, troll onguent, they can remove conditions with Mending Touch etc...) .Besides it appears to me that any good Warrior does more DPS than a BA Ranger, however a BA ranger is able to pressure more easily in some cases (because of health degen and disruption from savage shot/distracting shot) but a ranger using crip'shot can solo you just as easily imo, cripple you can't escape, cripple you can't reach him, you want to heal? disruption. you're stuck here and he kills you with regular bows attacks and poison health degen, this is 'normal' rangers have always been like this.I even prefer crip'shot to BA if that interests you, because if a ranger use BA, no cripple, you can reach/espace more easily besides an arrow isn't that difficult to dodge, you can hide behind walls etc... (even if Natural Stride helps the ranger to get closer), this is what Gordon ecker pointed out, with BA you do more damage, but loose your ability to snare or annoy your opponent with conditions etc.... Besides if BA rangers have a good dps, something that can be compared to warrior's DPS, then why do ppl never run BA Rangers instead of Warriors ? And why do rangers themselves prefer spiking/doing more dmgs for a rather long period of time with brutal weapon-kindle arrow-dual shot or such things, and why do spike teams using rangers don't spike with BA but rather with Glass Arrows and conjures or with Dual Shot and conjures ? Another thing, you said i didn't invent the skill, right, you didn't too, so how do you know it has a dps that can be compared to one of a warrior ? and how do you know this is overpowered ? This last sentence doesn't seem to make a lot of sense right ?  I myself consider a warrior more able to kill me with direct damages than a ranger. We are not here to fight each other therefore you don't have to feel insulted or whatever i have nothing against you you know :p besides those stupid things are actually other ppl's thoughts, with arguments that you haven't been able to prove wrong so far so they are not reallt stupid imo, we are not here to talk about the persons here but rather about the skills. Another thing, this is the section about BA, this is right, this isn't the section about marauder's Shot right, so why are you comparing warriors DPS and rangers DPS ? This isn't the section about rangers nor warriors dps as far as i know. Excuse me but what you've said doesn't seem to be really appropriate and smart imo. I think everything related (because there is a link between those things imo) to BA can be discussed here since BA is used with other skills, it's not like if it was only affecting itself. And i think you're actually loosing the point of this discussion, you didn't really respond to what i've said before you're more saying that my arguemnts have nothing to do here, well i can't really give smart answers without them (btw if we can't compare skills here, then BA is overpowered compared to what ? itself ? then why not leaving it as is ? i'm not sure to understand...). This is my last post here as long as there's no real proof of the overpoweredness of this skill (a maximum of 100dmg every 5s isn't overpowered imo, even 150dmg every 5s if you consider regular bow attacks in between) it seems that everybody here think this isn't overpowered too and if it is nerfed it should only loose about 10 bonus dmgs or one second of burning, let's wait for Izzy if he feels concerned by this skill ^^   Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 11:02, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * BA lacks deep wound. BA fuels RC for cheap heals. BA is dodgeable, blockable, interruptible, susceptible to physical shutdown by blind and susceptible to physical shutdown by hex. Oh, and you can also use terrain to avoid it. So, what exactly was the problem again?
 * Good luck calling BA the best attack skill in the game. --Tankity Tank 00:53, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Great idea, after we nerf LoD, MoR, and BA, let us nerf Eviscerate! It does both damage and DW. WTB Nerf now plx. 06:50, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Smart comment tankity tank, saying that every skill has a downside too! OMG, maybe we should buff it since it CAN MISS! Nicky Silverstar 06:55, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Nah, I'll let you point that out for me. Epic fail at wit IMO. --Tankity Tank 09:34, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "However, blindness, block and Blurred Vision all work perfectly. Nicky Silverstar 15:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)"
 * And your point being??? Let me see: all melee attack skills suffer from the same downsides with the added bonus that you have to chase your target. So they're clearly not the best. Compared to all ranged attacks, BA is the best hands down, as no skill does nearly as much damage. So is BA the best attack skill in the game? Well, I don't see why it could not be the best. Every other attack skill in the game has the same downsides as BA, some have more, and those that have less don't do as much damage. Epic fail at wit IEO. Nicky Silverstar 06:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * P.S. On another note: not everyone likes deep wound as much as you do, and why you think deep wound doesn't easily fuel RC but burning does, is beyond me. Don't mess with me man, I'm a lawyer.
 * On a fleeing target (one you have to chase) melee attacks give you free crits - while with ranged attacks the target can terrain hide. Please learn how the game works before you start declaring something "the best attack skill in the game." The lawyer posturing was classic though, you get points for that. --Tankity Tank 07:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

(reset) Thanks, I always wanted to use that quote. :-) First of all, free crits has nothing to do with attack skills, just with attacks. Second, when I said fleeing, I meant before you actually reach the target (i.e. a good player). Both have their pros and cons, but if ranged attacks were so lame compared to melee attacks, people wouldn't be complaining about Aggressive Refrain so much. In effect, considering both attack types are equal, BA is pretty good. It could tie for the best. Nicky Silverstar 08:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you're misinterpreting why people are complaining about Agg refrain. Agg refrain supercharges *any* weapon, not just ranged. The problem with Agg Ref is that paragons already have ~115+ AL at any time, plus 25% permanent IAS, plus party buffs, plus a ranged attack that has roughly the same speed as the fastest melee attack. That really doesn't support your argument, it does show that Agg Refrain is overpowered though. --Tankity Tank 09:02, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Still, all you do is bash attacks in general. You never mentioned why BA is more affected by everything you wrote than any other attack skill. Nicky Silverstar 17:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't bash anything, I pointed out that the skill isn't crazy imba because you can defeat it in a number of ways just like every other skill. An IMBA skill is one that you can't defeat defeat or is unreasonably hard to defeat (ritspike spike output, trying to remove mystic regen just with enchant strip), BA isn't either of these things. BA is a good skill but it's not unreasonably good or unreasonably hard to counter. --Tankity Tank 20:00, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You literally said: 'Good luck calling BA the best attack skill in the game. --Tankity Tank 00:53, 13 August 2007 (UTC)' I agree that it is not imbalanced, but that does NOT mean it cannot be the best attack skill in the game. Compared to all other ATTACK SKILLS, this one ranks among the best. Stop trying to change the subject with every post you make if you can't think of good arguments. Nicky Silverstar 15:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Good luck calling BA the best attack skill in the game. BA doesn't have deep wound. BA gives your target time to react. You can terrain hide from BA. So yeah, good luck. BA is good. Is it the best, no. I'd rather have wearying strike on a melandru's dervish or Eviscerate on a warrior than BA if only for the deep wound (120 damage now is better than 80 damage later). I don't really care what skill you think is the best, that's not only irrelevant but me convincing you is a waste of everyone's time. What is relevant is that BA is good but not impossibly strong and that BA has a number of counters which are conveniently all laid out in this discussion. --Tankity Tank 17:31, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I suppose I shouldn't have tried to convice a person called Tankity Tank that there's more in life than a melee character...Nicky Silverstar 06:21, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

This skill is only good because it allows the standard ranger template, one of the strongest templates in the game, to kill things without support. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. It just allows rangers to actually do things on solo-splits, rather than relying on snaring + calling over warriors. --65.40.127.36 17:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * When you consider Game "Balance," you need to consider balancing things around other things. This is what the English word "balance" means, that two things are equally (or almost equally) weighted.  Burning arrow does +100 damage, making it twice as good as the next best attack skill in the game, ignoring deep wound skills which are incomparable.  This fact alone makes it imbalanced.  It doesn't matter if "It's the only ranger bow attack that can WTFLOLPWN anything instantly."  This skill should not be allowed to be broken simply because other ranger attack skills suck. Shard 02:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Then allow Izzy to buff other attacks, instead of nerfing the only good one besides cripshot.--Atlas Oranos 17:43, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I chuckle every time someone tells me that BA does 100+ damage in one shot. Do you people seriously not remove the burning as soon as you see it? BA does ~50 damage to good players, if it ever does the full burning DoT damage then you're using it on someone who's bad at the game. --Tankity Tank 23:14, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Nubs get killed by burning arrow. Good people are not even phased. dshot is probably the best Ranger skill in the game, so go QQ about it as well. Readem   Warning: Ignore this User if at all possible.  23:25, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Wow, so many trolls, i don't even know where to start. First of all lets get the facts straight. Burning arrow has (and that is at 16 marks) a +31 dmg mod and 5 sec of burning (another 70 dmg). So yes, it somehow does +101 dmg in one hit. But sever Artery is even more overpowered then. It does +156 dmg in one hit, costs only 4 adren and is not even elite! So by your strange standards i just found a better attack skill without having to use deep wound skills which you find so hard to compare too (most likely because they are much more powerful and would ruin your point). So much for the trolls, and now to the more reasonable ppl who understand the difference between straight +dmg and condition based dot dmg. Looking through other elite attacks you will see that (if they are not extremly cheap and spamable like whirling axe for example) they all have a high dmg mod and a powerful condition (deep wound, dazed), so burning arrow perfectly fits in there. And if you think burning is so much more powerful than deep wound and dazed then you maybe should take a look at spells like Mark of Rodgort or Searing Flames for your next build, making the burning arrow ranger completely redundant. 134.130.183.235 07:53, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It makes me sad to see so many people who just don't get the point of these pages. Shard

Just a fun fact, not a single person used burning Arrow in the September Quarterfinals, SemiFinals, or Finals. While this skill is good, I think it's just a strong damage option for ranges, and with the high block meta going around crip shot just is more viable. ~Izzy @-&#39; 22:04, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The reason people run the overblock meta is because physical characters are (according to you) overpowered. Hmmm...what do you think you should do?  Buff the counters, or *ahem* BALANCE *cough* the overpowered physicals.  In case you didn't catch the overt bluntness of sarcasm...nerf physicals.  Nightfall added a very bad power creep to the game. Just because nobody uses something doesn't mean it's not overpowered (even though it's a good indicator). Shard 11:45, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * By the same token, just because you think something is overpowered, it does not make it so. Many people have already pointed out that BA is only strong in skirmish situations(splits); where the degen is not always so easily countered by condition removal. It's decent pressure at the stand or in an 8v8 but beyond that it's rather lackluster (especially when compared to the utility of cripshot). People have already pointed out above why BA is not overpowered, my favorite was the comparision to sever artery. Unfortunately, some people just refuse to see it. It makes me sad that the few competitive PvPers who do post here are far too often ignored at best, and ridiculed at worst. 169.233.127.6 00:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Too many of the posters on these pages do this "Burning arrow does the same amount of damage as Sever Artery over the entire duration of the effects, so it's fine," yet they refuse to realize that sever does significantly less DPS. Even if two different skills do the same damage over their entire durations, the one that finishes first is better.  This is the case with BA. 72.235.48.41 09:14, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This is perhaps the only power-elite added in NF that didn't cause power creep or turn out to be unviable *cough* Decapitate *cough* nicetryatkillingEviscerateandforcingwarriorstobuyNFanet *cough* All this skill did was give Rangers something viable besides Cripshot. Ever since Cripshot was buffed to 10 energy, this hasn't been so appealing for GvG, but it's nice in arenas and stuff. Also, it's a good option if you happen to be playing on Jade Isle. So about this +100 damage thing... It does that damage over time. Time is a really important factor. Over 5 seconds while this skill at 14 Marksmanship would do +30 and then 60 damage in burning for an effective total of +90 damage over 5 seconds(I subtracted a pip due to assumed poison, degen not stacking past 10, etc), a Warrior would auto-attack for around 30 DPS, so 150 average damage. --TimeToGetIntense 03:19, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't remove a pip. This skill is in no way linked to Poison or Apply Poison.  It causes 7 degen.
 * As for warrior DPS, you're right, they do 150+ damage every 5 seconds, and you're right, because they're attacking through all of those 5 seconds. How does this relate to BA damage being fine?  Do you think a BA rangers shoots an arrow, then stands still for 5 seconds?  No, that ranger is hitting someone 3, maybe 4 more times in between, dealing 45 damage per hit.  So the 100 from BA plus 135 from attacking gives a BA ranger an average of about 235 every 5 seconds.  60% more than your theoretical warrior's.
 * Too many people are doing this "This skill is fine when someone has {effect} on them and someone else has {effect} on them, and when warriors attack with {skill} on a blue moon." This is not how you determine the power level of a skill.  The power level of this skill is 100 damage every 5 seconds, susceptible to blind and block.  That's it.  No other attack skill comes close, except skills causing deep wound, which give a ~120 heal when removed.
 * This skill is not fine because it is "the only viable ranger elite in nightfall." Is eviscerate did +10000000 damage and the other warrior elites did +5, eviscerate would not be fine.
 * If you want more viable ranger skills, why are you saying "keep this the way it is, keeping the amount of viable skills the same?" Ask for buffs on the underpowered ranger elites.
 * This is one of three ranger elites that sees play for two reasons: It's broken; and most of the ranger elites suck.  Fix both of these problems please. Shard 20:21, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * A Warrior spamming Power Attack or Whirling Axe would do much more damage than the Ranger, but that is not effective. Similarly, the only effective way to use Burning Arrow is with Apply Poison, that is why I subtracted a pip. Why do you keep trying to convince everyone that skills are overpowered when they aren't being overused? Because by your arbitrary standards, X power to Y type of skill in Z attribute is overpowered? Get real. Look at the metagame and figure out which skills cause problems, then people might actually agree with you. --TimeToGetIntense 13:29, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Will you ever learn that GW is not about 1vs1, and even more not about 1 skill vs another? The scaling issues with this skill are a real drawback that you keep to neglect. As the difference between direct damage and damage over time. There is no such thing as a burning arrow spike because they don't stack. Once you have a fire ele or a paragon in your group that does burning you loose quite a lot of your mojo. And even if everything works out, it is still just a decent dmg buff with a powerful condition. Exactly what most elite attacks are about.
 * And the numbers of your imaginary warrior vs ranger duel are so off it is not even funny anymore. But since you seem to love those number crunching without using common sense stuff i will show you how to do it at least a little bit more reflecting the realities of gw. Over 5 seconds burning arrows does 31 dmg bonus + 70 burning dmg + 5x10.75dmg autoattack (that is with short or flatbow, others will lower this significantly) = 154.75 dmg. Over 5 seconds eviscerate does 33 dmg bonus + 100 deep wound dmg (assuming 500hp which is very low for pvp) + 5x12.78 = 196.9. This comparsion of course is stupid because of the many differences on both approaches, but since you started it i thought at least do it right.
 * About the nerf physical dmg vs passive block remark. Yes, physical damage is overpowered, but you started at the wrong weapon here. Warriors, Dervishes and Assassins are the classes that made passive block madness a requirement. Bow has a way to slow attack speed to be a threat in pvp meta. It's the fast attack speed coupled with instant attacks and the easy access to deep wound that makes physical attacks so scary.
 * So i hope that helped, though i somehow doubt it. Arguing with you is like arguing with a 5 year old sometimes: "i want my candy", "no, its bad for your teeth", "but i WANT my candy!!!" :o). Beetlejuice 15:46, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

This spirit is very hard to kill right now. If you face a smart trapper, maybe with draw spirit, it can get very very very hard to remove it from play. It's not abused right now, at least in the games that I play, but I think it's a bit unbalanced. I hope some guys of the wiki will discuss this to determine if it's a valid segnalation or just my impression. Thanks --87.10.161.16 11:38, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I was outraged when they took NR, arguably the best skill in the game, and made it more broken. Anets intention was to stop people from using hexes, but that of course was a /fail idea, since teams who run anti-hex have to run monks, and therefore usually have to run enchantments.  My nerf list has this skill only lengthening cast time by 50%, back to its original level, and doesn't kill maintinable enchants. Shard 12:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * In GvG spirits are toally balanced, In HA they get abused but as part of a bigger problem that needs fixing. Any REALLY problamatic builds that shut your build down can easily be dealt with by taking Gaze of Fury (With even 0 attributes). Don't nerf spirits into uselessness, but how they are currently being used does need tweaking, most preferably by nerfing the RaO Thumper. -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 14:06, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * No, I think you dont understand. Gaze of fury is interrupt bait + a wasted slot + tr still in game, and nerfing rao will do anything but remove the problem nr has now. An expert trapper can and will place spirits in some locations that will require a push at full force (a difficult push since your monks or midliners will have a hard time protting-doing their jobs), even if it's for the time needed to destroy nr+tr, or it will require losing grounds to retreat and go back out of spirit's range (and in this case, just draw nearer). It forces position, it's dust trapped (only melandrus can kill it at will, and it will require 4-5 high damage attacks, that's not exactly having low health), it's impervious to conditions, can be moved around with smart use of draw spirit, can be mantained by using oath shot. i'm all in for a return of nr-tr builds as i love them, but nr is too resilient and hard to kill fast for the big effect it has. oh and it's obvious i'm talking about gvgs, i dont consider HA even worth a look in relation to game balance. --87.10.161.16 14:54, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As another proof to my point, NR was nerfed with this week test skill update. --87.16.173.22 18:48, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

This has been nerfed, and hopefully should be a lot easier to deal with. The armor buff it got from level 13 was insane. ~Izzy @-&#39; 22:05, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks; now it looks a lot more balanced...effective but dealable with. --87.10.162.198 02:18, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Animals in general are overpowered because they give a team constant DPS for the cost of two skill slots. Even with no other Beast Mastery skills, animals themselves, help in many ways such as providing corpses, body blocking, and slow and steady damage. Their damage needs to be reduced, and their health and armor reduced as well. 16:22, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I lold.--Renegade 20:26, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm, same person added "Protective Bond" overpowered thing. Troll attempt? Zweistein 21:38, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * If passive armor effects that do requirement payment as being discussed below are a concern for being overpowered, how would a pet who requires no payment and only one skill, two if you want to rez him, not be an example of the opposite, passive offense? The two conditions must be kept in balance.  If we weaken armor and anti-melee more, the damage a pet can do will only increase, and as a source of constant DPS, with now assignable targets, can greatly change the game, and already can if used right.  Pets plus dazed on the RC will be total shutdown if conditions are repeatedly stacked on the target, like cripple and poison, which can be done by a solo ranger, who can also carry a pet.  Add in cracked armor to reduce armor, and pet IAS with GWEN and pets do have a serious potential to take over the metagame from sheer pressure they provide on a target.  19:22, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * He does have a point. People cry about passive defense, what about passive offense? O.o --Deathwing 23:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I gotta agree too. I propose it must be mantained like an enchantment, and cannot be undone unless u take it off the bar.--John deathblade 23:55, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This is the most ridicolous point i have ever seen. Passive offence? LOL. Sure you dont particularly have to control the thing, but if you dont it's gonna be pretty obvious where it's going. They force a secondary (or primary) ranger and on all bar's so far they are already packed full of skills that they HAVE to take. The only meta ranger is the BA and there is no way he has room for charm animal on his bar, let alone comfort animal. Shocking!!-- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 00:29, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Until Ranger Pet builds start actually showing up in PvP, none of this makes much difference either way... I have a pet on my own ranger, but one thing I've quickly found is you either bring it with no points into Beast Mastery, and watch him whack away for 5 damage on most foes... or you pump points into Beast Mastery, at the cost of your own DPS and/or survival. Pets die quickly if someone actually goes after one; the resulting skills blackout is pretty nasty, especially if the player didn't put points into BM. Generally, a ranger deals more damage without the pet; not to mention, pets are bad tanks if nobody's attacking them. Killing them in PvP doesn't help you win, it just removes a slight annoyance from the battle for a short amount of time. Killing the Ranger is vastly more effective, and if he's got points in Beast Mastery, Expertise, Wilderness Survival, AND Marksmanship, he's either got low DPS or he'll fold as soon as he starts getting attacked. -- Jioruji Derako.> 08:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This guy needs to move out from under my bridge, IMO there's only room for one of us here. --Pork soldier 08:58, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Quit being so greedy and just split the toll profits. :P -- Jioruji Derako.> 09:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * At around 10 or 12 BM, a dire pet causes about the same dps as Conjure Phantasm. While I agree there is potential value in pets as a way to output more damage in a short amount of time, the cost in attributes and skill slot(s) heavily reduces their value. When Expertise gives a superior benefit without eating slots... bah. -- 16:44, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[Resetting Indent] I fail to see the logic many are using here. Warriors now take conjure which does about 17 damage the way most spec it at 10. A pet does more damage, and can be locked on a target to pressure monks in preparation to spike another target. They can also be used to trip RoF, which is the number 1 heal spell used now. Sure you can kill the pets, but if you do, you are taking the focus away from killing the other team. As for the skill slots and atts, I would say it is worth it to have a way to do a constant 20 DPS to a target of your choice. I fail too see how conjures are deemed overpowered when they can be shattered and have a 45 recharge time, while pets do more damage, can be directed to a target you are not attacking to cause pressure elsewhere, and require roughly the same commitment. If you run multiple pets only one person needs a pet rez skill. For many melee classes that only really revolve around a small spike, pets can no doubt be more powerful than conjure, and have many more uses including stopping RoF from stopping a spike if you pack attack with them and your melee guys when you aim for a kill. 16:44, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Even with multiple pets, do you have any idea how much revive animal SUCKS? It takes attribute points and makes people get a blackout when they die, losing adren(!)Besides, it takes 2 skill slots to res them decently (while conjure takes 1). –Ichigo724 21:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This argument for pets being overpowered is really funny... I must have missed the hordes of people using pets to gain unfair advantage in PvP games. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 14:17, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * O_o Pets.... Overpowered....?????? roflmao... Are we playing the same game here? Beast Mastery is the weakest Ranger bar in PvP. If the beast is a threat u ignore the pet and just kill the defenseless master... Get outa RA before you try to decide on overpowered things plz.--Midnight08 16:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Notice that the same guy posted that and Protective Bond basically back to back. Pretty obvious trolling. And saying 'Beast Mastery is the weakest Ranger bar in PvP' is a little stretched to me. I mean, Thumpers are still dominating HA (yes, cause of a stupid gimmick hero build, but they still are!) and have been very popular since Prophecies, and isn't that a Beastmaster build all in all? Many use(d) 3-4, sometimes 5 BM skills. If you're talking pure Beast Master with a ranger doing nothing but patting his pet, it likely is, but i'm not sure pure Beastmaster is supposed to be totally viable either. Although with GW:EN's pet buff skill, i wouldn't be surprised at all to see Beastmasters putting all their damage on the pet (but still using bow for like DShot/Savage Shot) come into play. Mostly because doing this, while target locking your pet on a softie, can give you lots of time to just concentrate on interrupts and not much else while you click on pet attack skills on recharge. And it also makes your guy harder to shutdown since they're unlikely to want to spam blind/hexes on the pet, but that's still where the damage is coming from, and if they DO shutdown the pet you can still interrupt. Can make for interesting characters potentially. Patccmoi 17:02, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Midnight watch out you're close to breaking GWW:NPA. Obviously he thinks pets and prot spirit are overpowered.  Doesnt mean hes trolling, and doesnt mean that hes a noob.  Its just possible that he sees that its broken.  Balancing the game is for all forms of play, not just GvG and HA (though thats where the majority of the balance is for).  With the two new GW:EN skills and the power of thumpers in HA, its possible he thinks that pets can quickly become overpowered.  Like Deathwing said above, everyone complains about passive defense.  What about the power that pets give in passive offense, especially once you spec a couple of points into BM.--68.193.12.177 17:41, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Nothing he said was particularly close to GWW:NPA so i'm not sure what you're trying to show. And i think there is a right for people to laugh at how ridicoulous this skill suggestion is to be put in overpowered. One more thing....how exactly are you planning on nerfing Charm Animal ? Give it a 25/30/60 for all anyone that uses it in PvP cares. It simply sits on the bar! The only reason people may be suggesting that Pets are overpowered could be the Heroway, but they are obviously totally misguided as the pets are no more than an annoyance. The hexes are what pump up the damage the pets do (still to a fairly low amount) and the thumper with the HAMMER is what kills things. -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 17:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually a pet does quite a bit of damage in a thumper build. At least mine does. I don't think pets need nerfed or anything, but it is funny how passive defense is the devil, but them same people are running passive offense like Conjures. Pets are the same as conjures, put a few points into BM and get a couple more dps. --Deathwing 18:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

(resetting indent) Does anyone here remember the old IWAY? It wasnt very overpowered, but the synergy between pets and IWAY was enormous and it was pretty strong. Now with thumpers, you have again the synergy between RaO and hammers, which allows quite a bit of damage. Im not saying that this is as overpowered as something like LoD or AoM, but it still can use a small nerf. All I call for is the nerf that the skill be mantained like a mantained enchantment, without being considered an enchantment.--68.193.12.177 19:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * So you want beast masters to have a energy regen of 2? Done25 19:25, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think they should get an extra pip of regen since they only have 5 skill slots to work with. --Deathwing 19:27, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Anyone who has ever played a non-pure Beast Master will know just how much effort a pet requires. If you play pure-BM, the pet is allowed to do damage, if not, then don't worry, they're underpowered more then they are overpowered. It took 3,5 campaigns just to make a pet viable, and now you want to nerf it? Silly, silly people.Nicky Silverstar 20:14, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * To those speaking of "passive offense" and attempting to use it as an argument here: something merely being passive does not make it overpowered. Aegis is somewhat passive, but that's not why people argue it's overpowered: they argue it's overpowered because it's both powerful and passive. Simply stating "that's passive" is not a compelling argument that it needs to be downgraded. [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 21:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

This is absolute and utter BS. Of ALL the issues in GW that you could be concerned about, you want pets dealt with? Pets? If anything, they aren't strong enough. Charm Animal and Comfort Animal should be ONE skill. I never take a pet unless I'm running a pure Beast build, because contrary to what you seem to think, it is not worth giving up a fourth of your skillbar's utility to have a pet around unless you are serious about it. Indeed, this can only be a bad joke. Arshay Duskbrow 04:29, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I do not see why pets should not be considered an issue. The conjures are all repeated called overpowered, so why would a pet not be in the same area?  Because it takes one more skill slot?  Because of the potential to be blacked out?  If the trend continues of add on damage that breaks reversal of fortune, no doubt you will see more thumpers again.  And certainly if conjures are considered overpowered with a 45 sec recharge, ele based weapon and  are easily stripped, then pets will be screamed about.  Why not think ahead this time, instead of having a new metagame form that people hate equally as the current one?  You want to buff pets and think this is BS, but if you allow people to take a pet with one skill PvP will be all pets.  Plus you want to buff their damage?  They already do more damage than conjures, and about as much as the old orders did.  What I am basically trying to get at, is the new meta for physical damage appears to be pets already.  Swap to ranger, move your conjure points into beast mastery and you have the same meta you do know that people say is too powerful, but more so since you can't tell your conjure damage to do pester a monk.  17:00, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Conjures you can strip, pets you can kill - next topic please. --Pork soldier 19:34, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Lol. This skill is underpowered and overpowered at the same time. But seriously, 2 skill slots is HUGE. You really should compare this to Conjure + Attack skill. Or Conjure Frost & Frozen Burst. With just Charm Animal, the pet can be easily taken care of. With Charm Animal and Comfort Animal (which costs a lot of energy for a Warrior), it takes too much room on the skill bar (why do you think Heal As One is so popular?). And don't forget the blackout when your pet dies...seriously, I see way too many downsides compared to Conjure already. If a pet was 1 skill slot, then it might need some toning down. Otherwise, it's in no way near as strong. Seriously.Nicky Silverstar 07:38, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Two skill slots for a level 20 revivable sword warrior is good, but it's hardly broken. Thumpers (the most used build with charm animal) are cheap, but do significantly less damage than hammer warriors. Without RaO, pets are just bone minions. Shard 04:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You never really see pets used (in 8v8) solely for combat -- most usually they're part of some sort of corpse farm where you actually want the things to die. It's so cheap and easy to revive them that there's really no penalty for losing them, and they get *better* as they accumulate DP because then they'll die faster. I'd suggest changing Charm Animal to also revive your pet (allowing for more diversity on pet bars) and then creating a real penalty for the loss of a pet -- 4-8% DP on the pet owner, inability to be revived again once they reach 60% DP, a longer blackout period, or some combination of the above. Right now thumpers are hardly slowed down at all by the loss of the pet, and the necros benefit by having a free corpse. --72.211.155.160 18:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

(reset) I want to correct an earlier comment to this: Two skill slots AND A LOT OF ATTRIBUTE POINS for a level 20 revivable sword warrior is PLAYABLE, but it's hardly broken. :-) Don't you ever forget that pets need attribute points to actually deal damage.Nicky Silverstar 10:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I think one of the major issues with pets is when they die in rapid succession you don't get the disabling effect this leads to a lot of issues with pets and something I aim to fix soon. Other then that I think there is a bit of clutter issue with large teams of pets, minions and spirits, but thats a separate topic. ~Izzy @-&#39; 23:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That could be true, but how do you stand on Disabling + Death Penalty? Personally, I always found that a bit excessive, however, I must also admit I have never made a good pet build yet, it was always used in addition to other things (like marksmanship). Nicky Silverstar 06:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The person who said that pets are overpowered should be committed, what the hell is he smoking?? BM's are the rarest of all rangers except Thumpers, maintained skill? LOL
 * I love you, Anon above me. You are curt, and yet your speech is both laconic and inspiring. Ty, for that. Readem   Hate Mail Goes Here  07:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If that was sincere Readem, ty, I'm not an Anon, I usually hang out on Guildwiki, names Cardsharp. Besides you are my insipiration after all ;) --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:122.167.18.3.
 * Make Comfort Animal shut down all other beast mastery skills for 20 seconds. Problem solved. Shard 23:11, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Pets have always been potentially overpowered, which is why I always hammer anyone suggesting the combination of additional effects on charm animal. The added unit on the field, the use of an expendable unit to distract, advance, utilize corpses, and deal legitimate DPS all add up to some significant advantages.  The idea that this in any way could be absolved of a skill slot is blasphemy, a skill slot is the highest cost in the game, and just because your gaining a passive advantage from the skill does not mean we should consider absolving it of the ultimate cost.  The number one reason most builds don't utlize a pet is because of the skill slot it takes, otherwise, many teams would utilize this advantage even with the setbacks of a pet.


 * By oneself, using a pet is fairly balanced, the focus of skills on a pet takes away from the self functioning abilities, and inevetably makes the user weaker. Also, the Death Penalty and skill black out severly inhibit a pet user, making corpse generation hazardous, and significantly reducing the value of the pet.


 * Personally, I don't think this is where a balance alteration should occur though. This is just another reason why AoE damage should be more proficient, the use of pets increases the number of units on the field, and in mass, they can be devistating, but since most AoE heals are ineffective with pets, dealing AoE damage on a large group of melee units and pets offers a powerful counter, if the AoE damage is proficient enough to face the challenge.  This is just another reason why professions like Elementist and Dervish should have more frequent and devistating AoE damage, AoE is a counter to clustered units, and is most effective against poorly controled units like minions and pets.  DoT's are especially effective against unresponsive units like pets, since they are not good at avoidance, and returning part of Dervish touch AoE attack would make Dervish a natural counter to pets as well.


 * But since pets arn't currently dominating, designing entirely new counters isn't really appropriate at this time. Pets are only seriously advantagious in pet synergized groups where shared skills offer exponetial advantages for any number of pets.  This obsolves many players of bringing a rez skill, or any additional skills, as well as sharing the benifit of defensive boosts.  If at any point Pets become a serious threat, a good counter skill to develop would be symbiotic mesmer and necro spells and hexes which will deal damage to both the pet and master if it hits either, or AoE damage effects which deal bonus damage to pets, like a Chaos Storm with additional damage to pets.  But I think attention to AoE damage is enough to do the trick, when dealing AoE damage becomes a natural counter to grouped and multiple units instead of an advantage which has to be penalized with high costs and high recharge, than it will easily match any number of pet onslaughts.--BahamutKaiser 01:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * So, you basically told us that pets create another character on your team for one skill slot. We already knew that.  You also said pets aren't dominating right now, which is the biggest load of BS anyone except readem has ever said.  Spiritway IS the HA meta.  That's halfway an issue with Soul Reaping, and halfway an issue with pets.  The biggest problem with pets right now is the ability to keep RaO active.  Adding a blackout for Comfort Animal if the pet gets res'd would force players to actively heal their pets instead of letting them die, then using comfort whenever they need to put rao back up. Shard 12:45, 10 October 2007 (UTC)