Talk:Bukdek Byway (Zaishen vanquish)

6 years of half-assed work comin from anet and now this srsly either fuck up the whole time or do a good job but not like this /nvm they screw up even if the try to do a serious job 78.35.129.119 16:19, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You sound a little mad. Pjwned 19:17, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * What? --[[Image:User Master Fast sig-icon.png]] Shinigami  King  20:42, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

1 kill vanq counts
Despite the atleast 25 enemies comment, doing this using chasing zenmai, seek out tosai and drunken master will complete the quest :)
 * And killing 25 enemies doesn't complete the quest, you still have to vanquish the whole area (which I thought would not have to be done when making the page, so maybe it should stay Vanquish the Bukdek Byway instead of Kill at least 25 enemies in the Bukdek Byway?) --weby [TALK] @ 16:39, 24 June 2011 (UTC)


 * There are really two issues: (1) the text is misleading (people are interpreting the clear at least to be sufficient, when, as a ZVQ, ANet is assuming that ppls realize that means VQ at least 25); (2) the 25 limit appears not to matter if you use the Drunken Master exploit. (However, I was unable to test for the other low-kill exploits). Technically, the Drinkmaster isn't killed (which can be seen by the fact that you get 0xp for the VQ itself). I've updated the notes accordingly. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 19:20, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I got the reward by accepting the Missing Daughter quest which makes some nearby foes hostile (8 of them to be specific) and you actually do kill those guys so it seems more likely that it doesn't actually prevent short runs at all. Pjwned 20:58, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I honestly vanquished 137 foes and only then completed a quest. Obviously, the quest text is misleading. As I think, it was supposed to be like: Kill all the foes in Bukdek Byway in hard mode (at least 25 foes should be killed). Whether this amount is really checked in a quest mechanics or it's a simple advice counted on player's conscience and wish to not abuse some active quests, I cannot say. --Slavic 22:36, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Seems like it's intended to be checked but it actually isn't so all it REALLY does is advise you to not vanquish the area in easy mode. I would maybe have some more sympathy for that if vanquishing pretty much every other area in the game wasn't such a chore. Pjwned 07:10, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Bug notes &c.
It appears that, 25-kill text notwithstanding, the real requirement to finish this quest is to vanquish the area. Strategems to complete this quest with 1 kill are basically about vanquishing the area with 1 kill. As such, notes about such strategems working or not working are already covered by the anomaly note. -- Hong 16:22, 25 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I disagree. I think there are two issues: (1) the anomaly that suggests that the 25-kill means you don't have to VQ to complete a Zaishen VQ; (2) the bug that allows you to get credit for the ZVQ no matter how few foes you kill for the VQ.


 * In other words, it appears that ANet wanted to set up the ZVQ to avoid these exploits, but failed to describe the conditions unambiguously and failed to code it properly. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 16:33, 25 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Both are adequately covered by the line "you have to vanquish the area". If you vanquish with 1 kill, you get credit. If you get 150 kills without a vanquish, you don't get credit. It's the same underlying issue. -- Hong 16:50, 25 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Except one is a bug (unintended by developers), while the other is poor phrasing (i.e. anomalous, in wiki terms; the phrase is accurate if you believe that ZVQ implies VQ is required).


 * Is there something strange about thinking "Zaishen vanquish" means you have to vanquish? -- Hong 18:26, 25 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Apparently, because about 30-40% of my guild thinks that they only had to kill 25 foes. (It took me a long time to understand why they thought this; it seemed obvious to me that ZVQ means VQ.) — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 18:33, 25 June 2011 (UTC)


 * People thinking they needed to follow the quest directions is perfectly reasonable (if rather naive, if they really thought that killing 25 guys would get them 150 zcoins), and the fact that it didn't work is the basic reason why there's an anomaly tag in the first place. That anomaly tag explains what's really necessary to complete the quest. If that 30-50% of your guild were to see that tag, they would know what was required, without any further bug notes or whatnot. -- Hong 18:49, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Phrasing redux
There's some strong disagreement over the phrasing used. The most recent suggestions have been:
 * 1) "Although the text implies that you need to kill 25 foes, you must in fact vanquish the zone to complete this quest. See Bukdek Byway for details, including 0-kill or low-count vanquishes."


 * 1) Using two notes, to separate the anomaly of misleading phrasing and the bug (that there's no actual lower limit).
 * 1) Using two notes, to separate the anomaly of misleading phrasing and the bug (that there's no actual lower limit).

For me, I think the problem with a single note is that there are two distinct issues:
 * People believe, wrongly, that the text means that you can kill 25 foes and get credit for this quest. (I think it's odd that people believe that a Zaishen Vanquish might not require vanquishing, but, alas, that is what they believe.)
 * The 25 lower-limit is bugged: you can still use the exploits for 0-kill, 1-kill, 3-kill, or 10-kill vanquishes. The game has always counted these variations as full vanquishes, so they meet the standard ZVQ requirement; none of them meet the stated requirement that 25 deaths are required.

Can people offer their opinions about how this should be documented? one note? two? do any of the phrasing above capture the idea(s) correctly? if so, which works better? If not, could you offer another suggestion? Thanks! — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 18:46, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You need to vanquish to complete this quest. If you kill 1 foe and successfully vanquish, you get credit. If you kill 150 foes and don't vanquish, you don't get credit. It really is that simple. Whether there are two or three or N issues that can be identified through careful textual analysis really isn't that important: people come here to find out what they need to do to finish a quest, and if there are any tricky bits involved. You don't need dense thickets of discussion to provide that. -- Hong 18:54, 25 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Here's how I think it should be written:
 * One anomaly note saying something like "even though the quest says you are required to kill at least 25 foes to get credit for completing it this is not actually true" and then mention any details necessary about low kill count vanquishes.
 * Another note (possibly tagged as an anomaly) saying that the quest text is misleading and that you still must actually vanquish the area, whether or not that means killing 1 foe or 150 foes.
 * That seems to make the details very clear and clarity (in my opinion) is the most important consideration. Pjwned 22:12, 25 June 2011 (UTC)