Feedback talk:User/Manifold/Limit secondary spirit spamming

Just force Ritualists must put attribs into useless spawning...I think current ritualist is ok(pve perhaps). It's not spawning power bad, due to other primary too abusable (expertise, faster casting, soul reaping)...-- TeaCat._.  05:08, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to make Spawning Power better here, at the same time. Manifold 15:06, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Why does it matter that other professions spirit spam? It doesn't. Rit's are still best at it. They have higher attributes and Spawning power access.  That means other profs have weaker spirits both in attack and health, less charges/powerful splinter weapon, and no access to Feast of Souls or Rupture Soul.  It's a non-issue unless I'm missing some awesome synergy (besides expertise).~>Sins  WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 15:12, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer they didn't (easy way to get Nick's items FTW!), but to me, the easiest way would be to limit the number of summoned spirits via the primary attribute, similar to the limit on the number of minions controlled. -- FreedomBound [[Image:User_Freedom_Bound_Sig.png|19px]] 15:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * So you feel like killing binding rituals for non-rits, because it's your preference? That's not going to win anyone over and people who have the same preference, will just feel the same and agree.  I'm for diversity of builds and therefore against limiting binding rituals for other professions.  What if I prefer that we limit minions based on Soul Reaping instead of Death Magic?  There goes uber minions created by rits and no more mob bombing  builds.~>Sins  WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 15:23, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't say kill it, but if it was 4, plus 1 for every 2 ranks (or whatever), it would limit the viability without killing it outright. You could also limit it based on a non-primary attribute, if the "optimal" cut-off (8 spirits? 7?) was above 12. ETA: I also didn't really mean "primary" as in, profession specific originally, just "primary" as in "the most important attribute". -- FreedomBound [[Image:User_Freedom_Bound_Sig.png|19px]] 15:35, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You and the OP need a better argument than it's my preference that other professions not be able to use as many binding rits as the rit. ~>Sins  WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 15:41, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * My problem is that Rits are (again) having an identity crisis. Rit skills have long been more popular among secondary Rits than primary Rits. Imagine if five classes used Ele secondaries for fire magic, and no one wanted to make an Ele. Rits need more to distinguish themselves from every other class that spirit spams. I'm hoping that these suggestions would curtail the huge use of secondary spamming while still keeping it available, but just a bit harder. Spirits are so good now that the Rit's advantage is largely irrelevant. Do you think Critical Agility should be usable by Warriors and Dervs? Manifold 15:59, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I suggested this before but Alce convinced me it wasnt a great idea... even N/Rt healers only use 1-2 spirits and saying only Rts can use spirits at all is lame... The only class that could abuse spirit spamming is ranger -Talamare-   feedback  16:03, 14 October 2009 (UTC)


 * On a side note - 15spawn/12 death minions have about 100 more hp, and they get the benefit of Explosive Growth to make more damage then the higher level minions of true MMs, not to mention Spirit's Gift also adds party support -Talamare-   feedback  16:03, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not suggesting that only Rits can use spirits. But spirits are extremely powerful now. Imagine if water magic did twice the damage tomorrow. Everyone would be using water magic, even if they weren't an Ele. That would be a problem. As it is now, many people have a spirit spam build for their non-Rits. I don't think Mesmers, Necromancers, Monks, Dervishes, Rangers, and Assassins should all be able to make a good build with the same exact 8 secondary skills. Manifold 16:12, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

@Sins Nowhere did I mention that I wanted this to happen, in fact, I said the opposite. I just threw out another option for how it could work, if it had to happen. -- FreedomBound  16:24, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * What about this. Change the levels of spirits to static amounts, and change the spirit part of spawning power into "for every point in spawning power, your spirits' levels increase by 1". Currently, spawning power barely does anything at all. They get like 50 extra health, but their levels are so low most enemies in HM need at most 2 hits to kill them. Of course, it will not increase their damage, but it will give people a reason to play more than 1 rit build. Koda  [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_UT.jpeg‎|19px]] <font color="Teal">Kumi  16:28, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Manifold are those "good" builds better than this...


 * Spawning Power 6, Channeling Magic 12+1+1, Restoration Magic 11+1 (Note Draw Spirit is Summon Spirits, I don't display it bcs of the luxon/kurz mix icon)

There is an identity. No other profession can come close to doing the amount of things a rit can with spirits. No other profession has the synergy to do this much.
 * Sig of Spirits + Feast of Souls = 10 180 health party heal (it's over 300 if you eat the other two).
 * Rupture Soul + spirits = distracting npcs with immunity to melee through blind.
 * Splinter weapon has 5 charges and more power, that nets ~75 more damage per cast and spawning makes precast splinters last longer.
 * All spirits have more health and deal 3 more damage per attack (except vampirism) and vamp+bloodsong do 1 life steal more with spiritleech, that damage adds up fast with 5 spirits.

Those are all things that rit has over other spirit spammers... instant party healing, quick recharging blind skill, and various forms of more damage. What could other professions possibly have on rits that the above looks insignificant? <font color="#C71585" size="2px">~>Sins <font color="#CA1F7B" size="2px"> WDB 16:29, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is a good build that only Rits can use. However, it is part support, part heal, and uses three attributes (personally, I find summon spirits more than enough to heal spirits, Spiritleech Aura is ~15 healing every 2.75 seconds, and IMO, not worth it). A secondary with 6 spirit skills on their bar and only splitting between Channeling and Communing will do about the same damage. Yes, Rits can get more utility out of their build, yes Rits do spamming better, but I'm concerned that the gap between primaries and secondaries is too small. <font color="#008800">Manifold 16:56, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Spiritleech Aura isn't used for the healing, it's used because it's lifestealing. <font color="Black">-- <font color="#0104C6">FreedomBound [[Image:User_Freedom_Bound_Sig.png|19px]] 17:02, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * So a skill slot and several attribute points to counter..shielding hands, shield of absorption, defy pain, and a handful of other straight damage reduction skills and a few "heal when you take damage" skills like healing hands or RoF? <font color="#008800">Manifold 17:08, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No, to counter high armor levels, which every enemy has in HM. <font color="Black">-- <font color="#0104C6">FreedomBound [[Image:User_Freedom_Bound_Sig.png|19px]] 17:15, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Armor???? Spirits do armor ignoring damage..<font color="#008800">Manifold 17:16, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Mmmmkay... Then to add lifestealing to spirits that normally don't do damage, like Bloodsong and Vampirism.<font color="Black">-- <font color="#0104C6">FreedomBound [[Image:User_Freedom_Bound_Sig.png|19px]] 17:19, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd rather have one more spirit, one more obstacle, one more target that does at least 17 damage and maybe has a secondary effect than add 13-17 damage to one or two spirits, but I suppose that's debatable. <font color="#008800">Manifold 17:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You do realize spiritleech aura is additive with bloodsong and vampirism right? It's like having 2 more spirits throwing little glowy orbs around. Bloodsong and vampirism do 41 and 37 respectively per hit with spiritleech, that's nearly doubling their damage.  The other spirits do the same amount of damage just heal themselves, which is only necessary in HM.<font color="#C71585" size="2px">~>Sins <font color="#CA1F7B" size="2px"> WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 17:40, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm with Mani... I prefer to slap down that Painful hex instead of take up the slot with that... but why are we discussing builds? As it is right now a strong spirit build doesn't care about spawning power... only time I've seen spawnign power relitive is in combination of Explosive or feast of souls... with the change resently to increase weapon spells would seem nice, it is ignored. 192.203.160.241 17:48, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Putting points in resto means taking points out of communing or channeling too, which means all of your spirits tied those attributes do less damage. The point is, anyway, two birds can be killed with one stone here, make spawning more important and you give Rits their identity back. I'm starting to wish I'd titled this "idea for spawning power" and listed the effect on secondary spammers as one of the side effects.<font color="#008800">Manifold 17:52, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sins I gotta agree - using 12 resto just to make spirits do slightly more damage is stupid, Its better to use painful bond or go communing and use armor of the unfeeling or just using all those resto points into spawning power -Talamare-   feedback  18:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I did armor of unfeeling for the build, but I found it unnecessary even in HM. Additionally painful bond is annoying because it's single opposing target and a hex that often gets removed.  Spirit leech was the best choice to me becuase I make spirits live long enough by controlling their position and healing + spirit leech helps with the health.  It didn't make sense to give them more health through spawning when I could get them out of damage and spirit leech helps them do damage and heal.  There really was nothing better to do with the points then have the spirits deal the damage of two more spirits and add to their survivability.  But we're getting into a build breakdown more than anything now.  I think the best thing to do for spawning power would be to add some more useful skills into the line.  Look at the warrior, relatively mediocre primary, but the skill set of strength has some awesome functions.  Bull's Strike, enraging charge, primal rage, battle rage(underrated), defy pain, disarm, flail, warrior's endurance, body blow, etc.  Most of the skills in the line are really good and that's what makes strength a good attribute.  I don't think too much needs to be done with spawning power itself, more that the skills in the line just need to be useful.<font color="#C71585" size="2px">~>Sins <font color="#CA1F7B" size="2px"> WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 18:26, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

The game, sadly, already has far too much "primary only" things. In the beginning, you could reasonably use most any primary/secondary combination effectively. Nowadays, I see more and more people only running skills from their primary, with an incidental skill or two, at most, from their secondary. This is sad -- and a result of suggestions just like this one. --Emkyooess 14:38, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Spirit Siphon in Spawning Power
I love this. I usually run dry when playing Restoration and can't bring this since like nothing in Channeling. Also thought about this move. Previously Unsigned 19:18, 19 October 2009 (UTC)