User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Underpowered Skills/Assassin/Archive 1

Popular opinion places this skill as one of the worst in the game. Your target has to do basically nothing for 5 seconds, which doesn't happen often. It's inferior to basically any other knockdown skill, including non-elites. The only possible use it has is with Diversion, but there are better skills that Diversion works with. This skill is very un-assassin and very useless. It should not stay in its current form. It should've been a mesmer skill if it was meant to be used with Diversion. I would like to see this skill completely reworked into a dagger attack. Preferably an off-hand that follows a lead to encourage the use of lead attacks. My vision is a 5e/.5c/12r attack that knocks down foes and deals extra damage if they weren't using a skill. If they were using a skill, all it would be is a normal dagger attack with fast activation. It's got an interrupt activation time but the last thing you'd want to do is use it when someone's casting. This would be interesting to see as an attack. It would also still work with the "wastrel" theme. I would also make the conditional damage pretty high and linked to Critical Strikes (60 at 15 CS). That's just my vision for this skill, but I would just like to see the skill redone. --Heelz 12:50, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Er...I think that's a bit too powerful, to say the truth. I think an Off-Hand attack that knocks down an enemy who's not using a skill is already something very powerful, especially given how it would be possible to chain knock downs in order to fulfill the "not using a skill" requirement. Adding extra damage (even worse, high conditional damage) would make this overpowered, IMO. Erasculio 13:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, that's just something I'd personally like to see. Maybe it's a little extreme. The point is though, WC is in dire need of change. --Heelz 15:52, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I've written a few things about this but I'm having a hard time wording it properly, mainly this skill is a bit scary because of the knock lock potential, because this is a type of gameplay I really think is bad for the game I haven't tried to increase this skill very much. I also feel it's not a very Assassin like skill so it's low on the list of skills to be buffed. ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:03, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Heh, I completely agree it's not very assassin like, so why was it given to assassins in the first place? IMO, I think this should have been mesmer and Extend Conditions to assassins, afterall, assassins are pretty much top of the food chain when it comes to dishing out conditions, seems only right that some assassin in the past would have figured out a way to make them last longer :) Dargon 21:00, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I always saw this as an anti run skill. Maybe it would be more effective as "After 5 seconds, target foe is knocked down if that foe is not using a skill. Or "After 5 Seconds If target foe is moving that foe is knocked down"... This would allow it to work as the snare its supposed to be. If necessary lower the timer to make it lose the stunlock effect. 5 Seconds is really asking for trouble with a 8 second recharge. (WC, KD+1, WC Triggers, KD+1, WC is Availible.) Lowering the trigger to 3 seconds would make it impossible to chain, and would work more as a "quit running" snare for assassins. --Midnight08 14:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I like what midnight said. Raise the recharge up to maybe 12 or 15 ish and have it knock down moving foes. Then you could probably make a sin bar out of this. Something like WC->Shadow Walk->BMantisS->and go either with a boa chain or something else.
 * Hmm... Personally I think it should maybe be an AoE hex, or similar to the upcoming monk skills, every 5 seconds or so it knocks them down if they're not using a skill, and last maybe 15 seconds. Because as an anti-runner skill that causes knockdown... Scorpion wire is too similar to that.--Devvu

Perhaps if this skill removed an enchant from a foe if it ends prematurely it would see more play. Either that or, perhaps, -60 damage. arredondo 00:18, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Another idea for the Skill.  Elite Hex Spell. After 5 seconds, Wastrel's Collapse ends. When Wastrel's collapse ends, target foe is knocked down. This Hex ends prematurely if that foe uses a Skill.   - This way there is always a kd. Either at the 5 sec mark OR when the target uses a skill. Also if the KD triggers before the end of the casting it would be a decent interrupt as well. --Midnight08 07:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't you mean an invincible and without-equal shutdown skill? With Deadly Paradox, you can spam it every 4 seconds, essentially never letting the opponent finish casting any skills ever and keeping them constantly on their ass. For it to work as you suggested, it would have to be after the successful use of a skill, otherwise it's way too overpowered. I'd buff it, but add some way to prevent the natural knockdown. I'd suggest "moving" to be the counter to it.--Skye Marin 21:16, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

This skill is just unusable in any organized PvP format and is absolutely overshadowed by Expose Defenses. The 'end if you miss' part makes it flatout worthless when you face BSurge or Curse Necros nearly every game and they can turn your elite into nothing. Here's what i'd suggest as a replacement: '10/1/20, for 5..17..21 seconds your attacks cannot be blocked or miss, but every time you should've fail to hit you lose 7..4..3 energy or Fox's Promise ends. When Fox's Promise ends, your attack skills are disabled for 3 seconds'. This way, it would actually turn your attacks into very reliable ones, BUT it would drain your energy hard should you try to combo through blind for instance, and you'd likely not have the energy required to complete a combo. But it would allow you to kinda 'ignore' all the minor blocks and minor miss stuff (like Price of Failure). Note that removing the enchant in the middle of your combo would also make you fail. Basically it changes the counter to your combos to enchant removal and edenial instead of block and miss skills. That seems more worthy of an elite and i don't think it'd really be overpowered considering the drawbacks. Patccmoi 14:51, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I like that change, except the 3 second disable after FP ends just seems annoying and not a real drawback from enchantment removal. Currently I don't see a reason to use FP over Expose because it's just a more conditional, less maintainable, elite version of the latter. --Ufelder 17:29, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * How would it not be a real drawback? It would interrupt your combo by disabling your skills if your enchant gets removed in the middle of your combo. When your combo gets interrupted for 3s, any monk would have time to heal it. Otherwise, losing the enchant might not really change anything. It might be possible to do 'if it ends prematurely' though so that it doesn't disable your skills when it ends because the natural duration is over. Patccmoi 18:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This is one I've been looking at a bit, I think the recharge could just come down a bit, but I'm always really worried about counters to counters, it's can cause really odd imbalances in the way things are handled. ~Izzy @-&#39;
 * Maybe something like, For 5...17...20 seconds, your attacks cannot be blocked and you attack 0...10% faster. You attacks have an additional 20...10% chance to miss. Basically adding in a counter to itself so its not a surefire counter, while still increasing its overall hit rate against those defenses. --Midnight08 14:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I dont think anyone would run it if it caused you to miss, especially on an Assassin. Maybe make it so that attacks that would have been blocked cannot Critical Hit, making energy harder to come by.--Renegade 14:41, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Here's an example of an assassin skill that a) no one has looked at and b) could actually be useful if someone tweaks it. It really doesn't take much tweaking, just realize that uncovered conditional cripple on a 15 second recharge is worthless in today's metagame, especially when assassins have access to the excellent Siphon Speed.

Solution: Make it a half range spell with a 4 sec recharge. Black Mantis Thrust has a 4 sec recharge, gives you +damage, and arguably requires an easier condition, so it can't possibly be overpowered. More importantly, this skill actually would fill a niche that no other skill could, a decent snare and a part of their combo that is completely _reliable_. For example I'd definitely use something like Jagged Strike, Mantis Touch in Moebius Strike builds if the recharge on Mantis Touch wasn't so shitty.--Symbol 15:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * If I may, I would suggest keeping it as a spell with normal range. First because, as it is, it's midly helpful for an Assassin to use it as a way to catch a fleeing foe (although Siphon Speed is better), and that's something easier with the longer range. Second, because if this were a half ranged spell, then it would work under Deadly Haste, and we would have weird synergies there. But what I really think this skill needs is a Dual Attack skill in the Deadly Arts line - that would make some skill combinations far more viable, including some with this. Erasculio 16:39, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see how a deadly arts dual is going to make this skill any better.  In its current form it's inferior to Entangling Asp which is pretty sad, seeing as that's a bad skill without Deadly Paradox.  The half range thing isn't really important, it can be full range, it wouldn't make a difference since it's not a strong effect in the first place, and you have to get close to use dancing daggers or a melee lead attack anyway. --Symbol 17:26, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, I was thinking along the lines of Impale. Dancing Daggers cannot be blocked; Mantis Touch cannot be blocked; a fitting Dual Attack would allow an assassin to follow with Impale, and so trigger a ranged Deep Wound that could not be blocked. Granted, that's not that powerful and Phantom Pain/Shatter Delusion does the same thing on an easier way, but that's the kind of combination in which Mantis Touch would be useful - less for its real effect (crippling doesn't really matter in this scenario, and like you mentioned, it's not that useful at all) and more for being a ranged, unblockable off hand attack. Erasculio 17:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * If you don't care about the cripple, why not just use Entangling Asp instead, which does something marginally useful (ranged KD)?
 * Entangling Asp isn't an offhand. --Edru viransu 19:22, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point. Though even then I don't see Dancing Daggers - Mantis Touch - Hypothetical Deadly Arts Dual - Impale becoming usable without deadly paradox, and that's FIVE skills with no utility.  It's just clunky, and Mantis Touch needs to be balanced on its own merits, rather than as just a stepping stone for some other skill. --Symbol 00:07, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * An interesting option could be to make it a good bridge for Dancing Daggers to a dual attack, doing something like: '5/.25/5, Requires a Lead Attack. Shadowstep to target foe and this foe becomes crippled for 5..13..16 seconds. This counts as an offhand attack. This spell has half range'. Because to me the big problem with Dancing Dagger was always to actually keep the combo going afterwards (unless ofc your combo is pure deadly arts with no dual attack, but it'd be nice if it was usable out of that somewhat gimmicky bar). Mantis Touch would allow you to go straight to your target to follow up with dagger combos. It's not like it becomes a big problematic shadowstep that takes positioning out of the game, you have to open up with a lead attack (likely Dancing), and it's half range. It just allows you to fill that small gap between you and your target and cripples your target for your dual attack, BUT it deals no damage at all so it can't really be part of a straight kill combo but more a very good spike assist or pressure build. Something like DD-Mantis-DB-Moebius, or DD-Mantis-Shattering Assault-Impale, or DD-Mantis-DB-Impale with another elite like Siphon Strength, or even something like DD-Mantis-Horns-TF-DB-Way of the Empty Palm-Deadly Haste where you can just alternate duals depending on the situation and have huge energy to cast Dancing Dagger on a fast recharge could become really interesting combos with small recharge and an interesting mix of deadly arts and dagger skills, and DD-Mantis-SA-Impale would be a GREAT utility sin bar for flag stand where block doesn't matter too much, you're not trying to 'straight kill people' but instead doing powerful, RELIABLE spike assists and enchant removal. Might open room for MANY varied Assassin setups with just that small change to Mantis Touch, and more importantly it wouldn't be just 'press 1 to 8 and hope you get a kill' bars that are just overused atm and quite boring to see after a while. Just a small change like this could make such a big difference ^^ Patccmoi 14:56, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow, an offensive shadowstep on a 5 sec recharge, with attached cripple.  Half range limits the possibilities for abuse, so I guess it's okay.  But even without the shadowstep it'd be attractive at 5/.25/5.   --Symbol 05:25, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the fact that you need a lead attack is really what would limit it much more than anything else. Afterall, it makes it unusable by any /A that isn't dagger specced. The thing if you don't have a shadowstep with it is that it won't become an efficient link for Dancing->offhand->dual. You'll keep the same problem of not actually being in melee range of your target to chain. Patccmoi 00:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I would go with a recharge of around 4-12 seconds and make it a crippling counts as lead attack skill would actually make it useful with jungle strike and the new trampling oxDVDA 04:39, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * So you mean just "BAM, you're crippled", now I'm going to dual attack you? I doubt that's going to happen since Mantis Touch is currently the only deadly arts offhand.  Also I'm not sure that we need more way to bypass leads. --Symbol 00:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No I mean Bam your crippled now I'm going to offhand and then dual attack you without skipping in the chain.
 * Oops, I'm retarded. That's better, though it's still a spell range unconditional cripple which deserves a higher recharge.  I'd prefer a 4r offhand than a 8-12r lead myself, I don't see the point in lead-offhand-dual combos with recharges longer than 4-5s.  --Symbol 02:17, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I see what you're saying but its kind of clumsy as an offhand I normally hit my offhands if I'm able to get my lead off making it less useful imo in the offhand position. If it were 4-8 second recharge or around there and possibly half range I would find it perfectly balanced and far more useful than its current state. DVDA 05:11, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well it's obviously meant to be used in conjonction with Dancing Daggers, the Deadly Arts lead, and that's a very reliable lead that's easy to land. The main problem with Mantis (appart from the attrocious recharge) is being able to actually follow up with your Dual Attack since you have to get in range of target (and with the time it takes to cast Mantis + aftercast and you were already likely not melee, it's actually very clumsy to use in real play if you plan to follow it with a dual). This is why i'd suggest making it half-range, but shadowstepping you to target foe on top. The fact that it does 0 damage is already quite a sacrifice for your offhand since it takes a lot of damage out of your combo, which becomes much more utility-based. Patccmoi 15:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd be happy if this received a 10s recharge. arredondo 00:09, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That's way too high for anything outside of pure deadly arts builds. --Symbol 16:45, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, I'd be ecstatic if it were 4s, but I try not to be too greedy. I also try to keep in mind that Deadly Paradox's effect likely influences the recharge decisions for non-attack Sin skills like this. --arredondo 00:48, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * *shrugs* If we're going to suggest fixes, we might as well do it right. If it just gets a minor recharge buff  to 10r no one will use it and nothing has been accomplished.  It's pretty hard to imagine how to abuse this skill.  What deadly arts combo are you going to use at 4r (2r under paradox?)?  There's nothing there, and it's not like you'd have the energy to do it if there was.  Of course deadly paradox is a huge hack that prevents proper balancing of deadly arts as a whole, but that's a problem for another day. --Symbol 02:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That came out wrong. I was actually referring to 10s being fine for MT since DP makes it 5s. But if the recharge was improved even more, I'd like that too. --arredondo 03:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * With the upcoming ability to run a full attack chain in Deadly Arts (talkin' about that new Deadly Arts Dual Attack), I think a recharge that's more in line with the rest of the Off-hands we've got would be nice. Don't forget, if you use Deadly Paradox, you're disabling your Dual Attack, because that's still a dagger attack skill. If you don't use the dual attack, then you're stuck with Lead > Off-Hand as your chain, which isn't all that fun, but could at least benefit from Paradox's speed boost. -- Jioruji Derako.> 03:45, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Reduce Recharge to 8, have it apply both Cripple and Weakness. It still won't see much play or get abused, but at least it's interesting then. it also adds new synergies with the two new condition-based signets, but is far from overpowered.--Skye Marin 21:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Now that is an interesting idea.  It may be too good actually, covered cripple on 8r is probably better than cripslash when talking about the effect alone.  I think it would definitely see a lot of play if that happened.  --Symbol 22:23, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd settle for that tbh, but i think it might be too powerful actually. It's basically YAA except you need to throw Dancing Daggers first, but there can be Nearby foes... Seems quite wicked in a split Patccmoi 00:38, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Interesting effect, but a bit too conditional. Would something like "Elite Hex Spell. For 5...17...20 seconds, if target foe is suffering from a condition, that foe suffers -1...3...4 Health degeneration." be overpowered? Or "Elite Hex Spell. For 5...10 seconds, if target foe is suffering from Bleeding that foe suffers -1...3 Health degeneration, if target foe is suffering from Poison that foe suffers -1...3 Health degeneration" Basically making it more effective if both conditions are applied. I know something can be done to help this one a bit. --Midnight08 14:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Elite Hex Spell. For 5...17...20 seconds, if target foe is suffering from Bleeding or Poison, that foe suffers -1...3...4 Health degeneration.
 * I see 2 routes you can take with this skill personally.

1) Convert the 'degen' in 'damage'. Instead of having -1..4 degen, target takes 2..8 damage per second. At least then it'd stack with the very high degen you already put on the guy. For an elite hex, that's a minimum imo. 2) Give it an extra (or replacing), interesting effect. My idea for this was to make it cause an extra random condition every 3s for 3s. For example, 'For 5..17..20 seconds, if target foe is suffering from Bleeding or Poison, that foe suffers for -1..3..3 Health degeneration and suffers randomly from Cripple, Daze, Weakness or Blind for 3 seconds every 3 seconds'. This second mechanic would at least constantly create a cover condition for your poison/bleeding so that they're not easily removed with single condition removal, and it could cause fun effects that are potentially devastating. And it also keeps the idea of a 'Seeping Wound' imo, which causes side-effects as it gets infected. I think that this would actually make it a good elite that could even see play in GvG cause a lucky Daze or Cripple when you need it can get you kills. And how do you want your suggestion of it working with any condition to be overpowered? It'd still be 100% worse than Reaper's Mark in every single case you can think of, and to have -4 degen a Necro just needs 10 SR which isn't so bad of an investment at all. Patccmoi 13:47, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Somebody has brought up Seeping Wound in the past, it's somewhere in the archives (bad enough to get a double mention). Anyway, I think it would be neat if it were reworked to have an effect similar to Shameful Fear--something like "If target foe is bleeding, that foe takes x damage while moving." I am not sure if that will bring the skill up to match the likes of Shadow Prison (likely not) but at least it provides something different than mundane degen. (Shameful Fear would get more use itself if it weren't for the 2 second cast and extra 10% speed; the idea of damage while moving is interesting and I thought it would pair well with the idea of a wound seeping blood when you move.) --Ufelder 01:17, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


 * If this were converted to 2...7...8 damage per second instead of -4 degen, yes it would be an awesome buff. arredondo 00:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I did at least once, dunno if it was brought up before that. Seeping is fail.  It needs to somehow add to a spike if it causes those conditions or something.( + X damage for attack skills that cause Bleeding or Poison (thus eliminating stuff like Apply Poison and Sharpen Daggers) and leave teh degen as an after effect.  That way if you happen to fail at killing the foe, you can hope the degen finishes him/her off. Or you need something like foe casts/attacks X% slower, I dunno.  ?-(eronth)  I give  up  19:17, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * What about something simple? Like, as long as they're bleeding or poisoned, they get the degen, and as long as they have bleeding and poison, they move 33% slower. Or maybe make the 33% slower effect right on there with the degen, while they've got either one of those conditions. You're still going to need to land Black Spider Strike and Twisting Fangs to get the snare, but then it actually helps you finish them off, rather then waiting on the recharge for BSS and TF, and watching them run away and use some random condition removal/hex removal to shrug off your attack. Or what about adding in some sort of effect to discourage condition removal? Maybe cause damage when they lose a condition, or apply a different condition if they lose bleeding/poison. Otherwise, they simply remove bleeding and poison and turn this hex off in the process. I don't like firing off a three-skill combo on a guy only to have him/her use Mending Touch to shut down the hex, remove the conditions, and regain all the damage I just dealt. When such a common skill destroys an entire combo like that, you just don't use that combo. And as it is, this skill is only usable in that combo. -- Jioruji Derako.> 07:28, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I would say this is definitely in the top 5 worst skills. An Elite skill should outperform its non-elite equivalent in its own line, or offer two effects at once, such as the new Crippling Slash. Seeping Wound doesn't even offer ONE effect reliably - conditional degen. This skill is 1/4 (1/8 if you want to weigh the value of the 50% slowdown effect what it's worth) as strong as Faintheartedness, and the only reason I can see that they thought it was worth anything is it's in Critical Strikes, and that it's an Assassin hAx that isn't half range... But seriously, at the very least it should get 33% unconditional slowdown (and probably a recharge dropped to 6-8), to offer some of the functionally of Siphon Speed at full range, and have some function as a cover hAx (which is all it kind of does currently, but worse than Parasitic Bond). Considering it's tied to Assassin primaries, it might as well inflict bleeding and cause the target's entire body to melt while we're at it. -- 18:48, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * "Target foe melts into a puddle of goo for 10 seconds. While that player is goo, they cannot move, use skills, or attack, they cannot be hit by attacks, and if they melt on a hill, they flow downwards."
 * But in all seriousness, adding a snare to the skill would be perfect; as a full-range Syphon Speed, it still doesn't boost your speed, only lower the foe, and it's an elite, so it won't go replacing Syphon Speed. The snare also gives the 'Sin a better chance to actually apply that Poison/Bleeding. At the very least, with a unconditional snare, it might see some use. But like I said before, in it's current form, condition removal basically removes this as well... -- Jioruji Derako.> 03:51, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The more I think about this skill, the less potential worth I can find in it... adding in slowdown makes it like Crippling Anguish, though probably better at this cost and recharge (though I personally think Siphon Speed is better than Imaginary Burden already, outside of 1v1 situations).. adding in more degen like For 5...17 seconds, target foe suffers 1...3 Health degeneration. If target foe is suffering from Bleeding or Poison, that foe suffers additional -1...3 Health degeneration... it becomes another generic degen skill. The idea I had recently now tries to combo with the fact you have to invest in Critical Strikes with this thing, you're most likely to be using a martial weapon. For 5...17 seconds, your attacks inflict Bleeding on target foe. If target foe is suffering from Bleeding or Poison, that foe suffers additional -1...3 Health degeneration. So maybe it'd act like a passive Jagged Strike... but would still be an awful skill. I will continue to throw out ideas for these awful skills, as even poor ideas might have worth. -- 04:02, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Why are you so afraid of this skill? It is clearly recognized as an inferior skills, but every time it is buffed it is buffed in manners that don't matter. Return the cool down to 4r or 2r and give it what it really needs, damage. The problem is that bleeding is obtained with twisting fangs. With the addition of Golden Fang strike this will have some chance of getting into those combos. However, it is still the weakest performing lead out there. It badly needs damage to make it worthwhile. Even a simple +1...9...11 would go a long way with this skill. You've pushed the recharge as low as it can go and the bleeding duration is pretty good too. It clearly demonstrates that this skill needs a second effect to make it worthwhile. -Warskull 03:27, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * (Conflict ftw)Well, it is meant for spamming a skill chain really. Theres two reasons why this doesn't accomplish that.
 * 1) Most PvP builds skip leads all together and go for heavy hitting attacks rather than spam attacks.
 * 2) Having a recharge of 1s doesn't help the spamming anymore than it would at 4s. The lowest recharge Off-Hand Attack is Wild Strike with 4s recharge, making a lead attack with anything lower kind of pointless. You are better off using Black Mantis Thrust at least it has +damage, and still doesn't slow down your chain.
 * So looking at this, the 1s recharge on Jagged Strike is kind of pointless. Increase the recharge to 4-5s and add some bonus damage. --Deathwing 03:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Jagged Strike actually needs above all viable offhands to follow. It's not just Jagged Strike that's not seeing play, it's more or less every single lead attack (with maybe the exception of Leaping in Moebius builds and the occasional Black Mantis Thrust, which is likely the most interesting lead atm). GFS might provide that. It's honestly not that bad imo, and the recharge actually matters, especially if you get blocked or miss for some reason. I used it often enough and basically i use Jagged on anyone i happen to run by, it spreads bleeding quite well (and if you have Apply Poison on R/A it's a lot of fun too). But i fully agree with something like +1..13..17 damage. It's not like Daggers have such crazy base damage that this would allow for big, powerful attacks with just Jagged Strike. The +damage would only give it damage similar to a sword/axe normal attack, and you pay 5E for the bleeding. 24.202.127.119 04:15, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The 1 second update on this and Malicious Strike kind of hint at the desire to kind of make Assassins capable of pressure... but we all know they will never reach the power rate that scythes have in that regard. I agree there should be a touch of +damage on this thing... but as long as stabbing involves pumping down lifebars as fast as possible, and duals are explicitly the best at that, lead attacks will be completely ignored... -- 00:49, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I personally felt this skill is a waste. It really adds nothing to a combo, besides bleeding for 1...15 seconds. It's effects seem very un-assassin like. (Spamming it) My version of the skill: Jagged Strike (Anti Oath Edition) :P, It acts a lot like Searing Flames. It applies bleeding and does some damage, but if it strikes a foe who is already suffering from bleeding, it's bonus damage doubles. Although i might have made it more powerful then Repeating Strike, i think giving each Lead Attack it's own little "Flavor" will be a start to repair assassins. Anti Oath 06:29, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I like the idea of it giving +damage to an already bleeding foe. I think the unconditional damage you suggest is too high, but the concept is really good. As far as repairing assassins goes, that'd require the dual attacks that require an offhand to not be "the best" - it'd require doing crap like removing all bonus damage from Horns of the Ox and Twisting Fangs. And that would really kind of suck... When I first got to test the Assassin class, I was pretty surprised when I found out that the chance to double hit ONLY worked on the wimpy auto attacks. Why the hell is that? Daggers that could double any special attack would add ~25% damage to'em, making up somewhat for the nilch base damage. -- 18:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Is this really underpowered? I tend to use it almost all the time. o.o Kite 20:45, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * because it's ultra spammage for pve assassins. look at anit oath's version (above) and its talk page. i think that change would be ok. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 21:30, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Jagged strike is amazing. You only think it's underpowered because nobody uses it. It's massive bleed spam, not to mention you can throw an offhand right after it. With high critstrikes, it can cost almost nothing. Shard 21:59, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * it's abused by pve assassins. at least until they get to kaineng. and making it cost nothing doesn't make this skill better o.O. only inflicting bleeding is so gdmn weak. look at unsuspecting strike, if it's the first hit it deals way more damage than all that bleeding in total. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 22:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Lol@"you can throw an offhand right after it". An offhand following a lead attack?  Shocking!  --Symbol 22:25, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Lol@ "massive bleed spam" --Deathwing 22:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well actually that part is kinda true. With a 1s recharge and the buffed bleed duration it's pretty decent at spreading bleeding, probably more so than sever artery or cripslash.  Whether that's valuable is debatable.  --Symbol 22:31, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * weap switch and gash. lol XD - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 17:37, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Like I said in the updates, Do this and ill use it: If this attack hits, target foe takes +1-15 damage and suffers from Bleeding and Crippled. 4-8 recharge, most likely 8. If thats too much and overshadows the other cripple leads remove the dmg, or make it 1..10. --72.74.237.104 17:11, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

This was nerfed because of its (most likely intended) synergy with Aura of Displacement. It was given a 10 energy cost and made it cost 20 energy right off the bat to use AoD->GPS. At the time, it was pretty powerful, but the nerf was an overreaction. GPS costs 10 energy, more than any other lead skipping dagger attacks. Palm Strike also costs 10, but that's another story. BLS gives back energy, so as long as you can afford the cost up front, its actually a net energy gain. Black Spider Strike and Shadow Prison came with the release of Nightfall and seemed to be made for each other, just like AoD and GPS. But it took a while before SP was nerfed to 10 energy, and BSS was untouched except for a damage reduction after many, many A/Ws had their fun. GPS is still currently overpriced, does mediocre damage for that price, and has no special effect other than the lead skipping (it's not too late to give "Phoenix" a meaning!). Plus, another lame thing about it. It, for some reason, has a different mechanic than BLS and BSS. It's always "lit", and being enchanted isn't technically a requirement. If you aren't enchanted, the skill fails and it starts recharging. The other attacks recharge instantly if their conditions aren't meant. Falling Spider works like GPS, but it's a better skill. So anyway, recap:
 * 10 energy
 * Mediocre damage for its price
 * No special effects (what does "Phoenix" mean?)
 * Inferior mechanics compared to BLS and BSS --Heelz 23:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, I find I only use GPS if i cant fit a hex into a particular build. Maybe add a + self heal into pheonix effects? or + fire? would fit the pheonix concept. Yes, would require a rework of the skill but would fit the idea and give the skill something different to make it useful.--Midnight08 06:31, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Personally i'd just lower the recharge on this, and maybe lower the damage too. Make it something like 10/5 or even 10/4, +5..17..21 damage. Its downside : being costy and doing kinda bad damage. Its upside : being a very low recharge straight offhand allowing you to use various duals when you want them (can easily think of stuff like Shattering Assault for instance). It would be a skill meant to use various dual attacks with just 1 offhand on your bar, mainly aimed at doing spike assists instead of 1 man spikes or using dual attacks utility (such as Shattering Assault, Horns of the Ox, etc.). Would give it an interesting role and not just turn it into a substitute for yet another boring 1-8 killing combo. Patccmoi 14:53, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The 10e cost makes sense IMO; I see it as a 5e Lead and a 5e Off-Hand, but all rolled into a single skill slot and twice as fast. BSS needs to be 5e in the first place, but that's probably getting fixed soon, so let's count that as a 10e cost. Now, BSS makes up for the hex requirement with poisoning, Black Lotus Strike makes up for the hex requirement with energy gain, and Golden Phoenix Strike makes up for the enchantment requirement with... nothing. Give it at least a small effect... how about a short-term Burning? Causing Burning isn't something that's been done before, but it's not completely crazy for an Assassin to do. Not to mention, it would fit nicely with the "Phoenix" name. -- Jioruji Derako.> 07:58, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * How about, make it unconditional, but if you're enchanted, it recharges faster? From there, it'd probably be abused with Dual Attacks, but the energy cost for that kind of combo is quite high, and there aren't many skills to form a second chain (first I can think of is the old AoD GPS>HoTo>FS>TF, which was replaced very quickly). --Kale Ironfist 01:08, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm liking the ideas of burning or self-heal, although I would also like the recharge buffed. - [[Image:User HeWhoIsPale sig.PNG]] HeWhoIsPale 17:54, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

As it is this skill looks really weak beside Signet of Toxic Shock.This is because of its HUGE recharge, lesser damage and that blind is harder to inflict than poison. It deos have the unconditional part but its hardly worth mentioning because its so small. Even if the damage and recharge was the same as toxic, it would still proberly be lesser because of how difficult it is to inflict blind.--Diddy Bow 20:56, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually there was an amazing build my guild came up for with this when B-surge was better. After the nerf it wasnt workable anymore though.  My advice is lower recharge to 20 or 25, and pump up the unconditional damage to be at least 1/2 the conditional damage.--John deathblade 21:02, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * There's no reason, at all, why this should have a higher recharge than Sig of Toxic Shock. And the 'unconditional' damage isn't one, it does about as much as a dagger hit. Patccmoi 00:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Signet spikers are already really strong since Dancing Daggers was buffed. Really no need to make them stronger imo.  Balance isn't about making every skill as good as every other skill, it's about encouraging a diverse meta game in which skill is rewarded - and signet spikers are even more about 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 than SP sins.  Errr 10:18, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh come on whats more 1,2,3... than an SP sin :p. I think a 15 recharge would suit this fine ^^.--Diddy Bow 22:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

10 second recharge please! Sig of Toxic Shock is almost always a better choice if a choice is to be made. arredondo 00:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

&
The only two non-elite step to target foe spells. Due to the fact that they have a 45 sec recharge to make people almost always bring an elite shadow step in place of them lowering them to 30 seconds would probably allow them to see some play and possibly more diversed assassin builds rather than Shadow Prison and the rare AoD.DVDA 04:39, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, 30 recharge and I would use them. --Deathwing 04:36, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed here too --Midnight08 07:30, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * A 30 second recharge on Death's Charge would see it on every warrior, which would be horrible for anyone who thinks kiting and pre-protting are a more positive part of the game than the ability to count backwards from 3. Shadow steps should be made harder for non-sins to use, not easier - e.g. by making them all disable non-sin attack skills for 2 seconds.  Errr 09:18, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Drain the adrenaline pool on shadow stepping is a concept that has been suggested before and works quite nicely. --Racthoh 10:28, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Doesn't work on Shadow Walking dervishes though. Errr 11:46, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think making the recharge ZERO but making it "disabeled for 60...30" depending on shadow arts would be nice. Accually make it worth using shadow arts--Diddy Bow 11:51, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Personally i'd make shadowsteps disable all non-assassin skills for 2 or even 3 seconds. Then monks would have to use Return wisely, Warriors and Dervishes couldn't do a surprise spike with Shadowsteps, and non-elite Shadowsteps cooldowns could be more interesting. If you don't put any drawback for shadowsteps on other classes, it'll always be useless non-elite shadowsteps for everyone or overpowered for non-Assassins. Patccmoi 16:17, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I do think that idea is a good idea. And at the same time, by disabling it makes it where warriors will lose all adrenaline, which also works well.  At the same time, it tests a monk to know when to activate return vs. using another defensive mechanism, as they will need to weigh whether their team can take the 2-3 second shutdown or not.--John deathblade 01:40, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Disable drains adren, overkill. I'd like to see them at scaling shadow arts, 50-25 or something. –Ichigo724 20:45, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

<--LJ - Agreed that would be overkill, i say link failure to CS. with 50% below 4cs they will be less used by non assassins because the skill would just fail 1/2 the time. Would allow the Assns to do their job and keep their toys where they belong ;) --Midnight08 16:32, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

This skill is one of them skills that could make an assassin more than just "1,2,3,4,5,6 dead yay". As it is though, I don't think I have ever seen it used. It has too high of energy cost, and the effect isn't strong enough to warrant a short duration with a long recharge. I think it needs a change. --Deathwing 21:48, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Give it an ability like augury of death: when the foe gets to about anywhere between 33% and 50% health (single value, not range), you shadow step to them. Or you could lower the recharge to 15, the energy to 5, and/or raise the effect to 50%.  Either way, it gives a nice group of new ideas for use of it.--John deathblade 01:44, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think this was used in sb/ri spike, and actually was worth the slot to smother some healing. 1/4 s casts are usually troublesome, if this was made useful the activation would need to be changed.  Compare with Defile Flesh... one for pressure, one for spike.  They're just not germane to the current 'punching a hole through a defensive net' metagame.  ~Seef II &lt;☎&gt; 01:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

&
I feel these two underused skills could use a buff... how about increasing the range you teleport to Earshot? They are supposed to be skills that help you get out of a sticky situation, but since the lock-on doesn't drop when they are triggered, it doesn't take much for your foes to continue their assault. A random teleport in Earshot range at least helps in this regard a bit more than it does now. arredondo 20:23, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * that would hurt pve. vipers should add pirce dmg and heart should have sum +armor or reg ‽-(eronth)  I gi  ve up  20:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * For Heart of Shadow, drop the random teleport thing all together, and drop recharge to about 10-12. Then it is somewhat of a decent self heal. Viper's Defense isn't that easy though. VD needs a mechanic change, because as it is, the random shadowstep is a irrelevant at best, downside at worst, and all that just to poison someone? You could make it last forever, and make the poison last until death, and it still wouldn't see that much use. --Deathwing 20:52, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * VD is not underpowered. It is a stance that completely breaks adrenal spike (or assasin spike) and it has 10s recharge. The only reason it doesn't see much play is that people use return because it causes cripple AND they assume that they will ALWAYS cast it before they get KDed. --PunkSkeleton 00:04, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * PunkSkeleton is right imo, VD is very good for something like that, especially with its 10s recharge. Concerning Heart of Shadow, i love playing with it when i'm bored with Return but since it doesn't cripple, i think i'd be nice if you could raise its range to a random location at the edge of your aggro bubble instead of "in the area". I know it has a self-heal effect, but i'm pretty sure it would help giving this skill the popularity it deserves, 15s reload is correct too, at least i'm pleased with it ^^  Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 11:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * How does VD stop an adrenal spike? It doesn't block anything, and moves you about a .5 second walk away. Maybe if it crippled too. --Deathwing 00:08, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's only 0.5 seconds away, anyway 0.5 seconds is often an eternity for a monk. --PunkSkeleton 11:39, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If it Crippled then it would be the same as Return. That's why I want it (and HoS) to have an Earshot range of transporting you. It would be a different type of bonus that Return doesn't have. VD gives poison (no pun intended), and the HoS heals you. With that much extra range for shadow stepping, you have a better chance at avoiding sustained melee spikes than you do now.
 * arredondo 00:26, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * An earshot range random teleport would be dangerous...you could teleport behind their backline as easily as yours. IMO viper's defense should be 5e 8r and block the next attack against you, and then teleport you one nearby radius towards target ally.  Heart of Shadow just needs a lower recharge, say 8 seconds.  --Symbol 02:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Viper's Defense: Blocking the skill is exactly what I was thinking too. The random teleport isn't a big deal, I've used the skill before plenty of times, and you rarely go very far in any direction you don't want to go in. But let's put the "Defense" back in "Viper's Defense", and let Assassins block/dodge attacks every so often. (on that note, if it shadowstepped you before you got hit and made the attack become "dodged", that would be pure awesomeness in my opinion.)
 * Heart of Shadow: I like having the shadowstep there for this one too... in PvE, sometimes you get pinned against a wall by a mob, and pinned against a wall with a 'Sin = not fun. Heart of Shadow's a good way to hop out of situations like that. Dropping the recharge to about 10-12sec might help too, make this a useful self-heal rather then a situational one-off anti-spike (the healing power would be offset by the fact that you can't heal and fight using this skill, and using it too many times in a row could stick you on the wrong side of any map). It's still a fair skill as it is though, in my opinion... I personally love the random shadowsteps, and I don't think dropping that effect would be a popular move. Even if that is a reason why some people don't use the skill, it's also a reason why other people do use it. -- Jioruji Derako.> 02:50, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The random teleport isn't a big deal right now because "nearby" isn't very far at all. But earshot is roughly 1.2x aggro bubble which is HUGE.  Personally I don't care whether Heart of Shadow keeps the teleport, it isn't doing very much in the end in the gametypes I play.  But lower recharge is a must IMO, esp since it's in shadow arts and that's a bad skill line in general.  --Symbol 04:00, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

These skills are good, well heart of shadow is. heart of shadow is great on runs when you get surrounded by melee and other wise you would die but this allows you to get out and has a pretty good recharge. If we had to buff it I would say 10-12 recharge at most. Viper's defense I don't like. It has uses but really will never see the light of day in a good bar not made by someone just starting out on sins. Having it block I think would make it equal to shield bash. It blocks and knocks down with the downside of needing a shield and for it to be an attack skill. This would block and cause poison and teleport you away, with the downside of an interupt and its recharge. --72.74.237.104 00:56, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Getting your combo through on an assassin is highly important and between blocks, interrupts, blind, hexes, and knock downs it can be really hard to do. So either make it so that way of the fox doesn't allow blocks or missing, or make it a 30 second recharge so its more comparable to the usefulness of expose defenses because 3-4 unblockable attacks (about 1 combo) every 45 seconds isn't enough to make it very useful and 30 seconds probably wont make them some unstoppable killing machine but still enough to make it a useful skill.--DVDA 09:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

TBH, even at 30r it will be hardly useful, but it would be a nice start.--HTS, 3 August 2007

hrhr, MoR Me/A with this. - Just me 12:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I like this on warrior, 45 is plenty, no? &mdash; Skuld 13:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

must be reduced. - Just me 13:08, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

100% agree with you on this one. Weak enchantment thats hard to use because a lot of times you hit the person 3 or 4 times to get some energy from them and then start a combo. This makes it so you can't. Even if you compare this to Foxes promise, that elite is underpowered. I say make this either a 20 second recharge and a 1..7..8 second duration and have it work on all hit OR next 8 hits. Then buff Foxes Promise to not end on miss =X. --72.74.237.104 05:17, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Signed. Bring this down to 30s and nerf Expose Defenses to 15E. Then maybe FP wouldn't need too much of a buff (5E would be nice). --arredondo 02:36, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Touch expose and ill scratch! It's hurt enough for all the other sin builds besides SP, enough dmg has been done. buff the crap, not nerf the good. --72.74.237.104 05:17, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Lower the recharge to something more like 20sec, change it to only make attack skills unblockable, and you give Assassins a way to make sure they connect with their chain, without completely destroying anyone using a block stance. I don't care if someone blocks half my attacks, but if they just happen to block my Lead Attack, it's just as though they blocked every attack skill I've got. At least Warriors have the option to use their other attacks while they wait for the first to recharge... same goes for Dervishes and Rangers (and some Paragons). Assassins are the only ones with this drawback... just let it become a useful way of landing chains, not an overpowered way of making block skills useless. Switch it over to Critical Strikes if you're worried about other professions using it to make spikes unblockable...
 * An Assassin trying to land a normal Lead>Off-Hand>Dual attack chain through a 50% block chance only has like what, a 12.5% chance of landing their Dual Attack? Forgive my math on that, as it's probably wrong, but still, it's close enough. -- Jioruji Derako.> 08:55, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * that buff would also make wild strike need no buff... i'd be fine with it. - Just_m3 [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 11:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The fact that Wild Strike would need a skill like this to be useful would still be buff-worthy IMO, but that aside, I think if it was easier to actually land a whole chain-worth of attacks, you might start seeing more Assassins using different attack chains here and there. As it is, everyone uses BSS and BLS because they're easier, and leave less room for error. The fact that everyone's using opening skills with a 12sec recharge when they could use a full chain with a 6sec recharge is a strong sign that all is not well in Lead>Off-Hand>Dual land... -- Jioruji Derako.> 11:55, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * i think that abusage of BSS and BLS is because they simply skip a lead and still bring a disadvantage to your enemy (with the hex). golden phoenix, e.g., only brought an advantage required for you. lead attacks are simply inferior to hexes on enemies or enchants on yourself. but the chance to be blocked also is a reason, agree there. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 12:09, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Here's a thought: make it a skill a la Ritual Lord. TBH, I don't think many sins use this skill to jump start their GPS or what have you, and as a skill with instantaneous activation, it can be used to counter blocking mechanisms when it's relevant. I'm not too worried about doing something like this as assassin bars are very tight and bringing this would be at great sacrifice - but there is the possibility of warrior abuse.
 * If you want to take a more traditional route to buffing this skill, compare it with. Guiding Hands has a fixed but great duration, lower recharge, and better scaling in attacks that can't be blocked. --Tensei 13:54, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * But the assassin line has death's charge &mdash; Skuld 14:13, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * i think it really only need a recharge buff. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 14:04, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The reason I like the idea of switching it to make Attack Skills unblockable is, look at the Assassin's attack speed. Five-six attacks is what, maybe five-six seconds? That's counting double strikes with Dagger Mastery, of course. If I can fire this up and unload the full number of attacks in five seconds, that's a 40-second downtime I'm looking at. And just for unblockability? That's not a skill worth unlocking, let alone sticking on your Assassin's skillbar.
 * Guiding Hands is a decent skill for a Dervish, maybe, because with the attack speed of a scythe, coupled with the recharge of the skill, it lasts long enough to make a difference. Put the same skill on an Assassin, and suddenly, it's over twice as fast, for just barely the same amount of raw damage. That's just not worth it for a 'Sin. Obviously, it needs to be kept in balance with the rest of the classes - it would last longer on a Dervish or Warrior, possibly making it overpowered - but like I suggested before, this skill would still make sense stuck in Critical Strikes, and no Warrior's going to bring along an enchantment that only lasts for 1 attack/attack skill. Besides, if blocking was really a big deal for Warriors, you'd probably see Warrior's Cunning getting a bit more use. Long recharge, but at least it lasts for a decent amount of time. -- Jioruji Derako.> 15:17, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * oh almighty Izzy! we beg ye to buff these skills to a degree worth using! - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 18:30, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Lead Attacks
Incredibly useless, and never will see much use in PvE outside of the odd frontline sin using Leaping Mantis Sting (which is followed up by, yes, a dual attack, exhausting assault). A way to fix this would be to let the lead attack have a chance to double strike like normal attacks, making them somewhat usable. They are entirely skipped out from metagame SP bars, since dual attacks are so powerful. Any suggestions to buff these would be helpful. Off-hands requiring leads may be included in this discussion as well. 76.64.59.41 06:14, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * yup. there are no combos of lead + off-hand that would compensate for a skill slot which the conditional off-hands save. the only one is the fox combo with huge base damage. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 15:24, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Izzy said that GW:EN will encourage use of Leads. It's not that they are all under powered, but the OH->Dual->OH-Dual setups on Hexed foes are pretty much the stronger option. With that said, some Leads are actually decent... Unsuspecting Strike is powerful, Black Mantis Thrust is a spammable Cripple (on a Hexed foe) with decent damage, Dancing Daggers damage is excellent and is an ublockable spell, and you mentioned LMS. The rest could receive a buff IMHO. --arredondo 17:14, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No, most of the lead attacks suck too. The problem is you have maybe 1 good lead, no good off-hands, and a handful of good dual attacks. Coincidentally the good off-hands don't have to follow a lead, so you just try to get to those good dual attacks as quickly as possible.  GW:EN will not get leads used because it doesn't address the issue very well.  Look at the added assassin off-hands.  Which ones would you want to use?  Golden Fang is it, but it doesn't do damage.  I am better off sticking to black lotus, twisting, black spider, blades as it outputs more damage and more condition pressure.  Furthermore what lead attack am I going to use, my only option would be unsuspecting strike.  Everything else tends to suck.  Almost all leads need buffed.  Golden fang is probably a little on the weak side too, the whole point is it enables you to take a more damaging dual attack.  However, it does no damage.  I am better taking impale if I want a more damaging combo.  They may have the intention of making leads useful, but it won't achieve it with the current state of things. -Warskull 18:31, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * those aren't all skills from gwen. i'm pretty sure they will have some useful ones there. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 18:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Them are all the skills that matter. The rest are PvE skills, which are irrelevant since everyone hates assassins in PvE anyway. --Deathwing 19:16, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * i don't :)> - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 19:18, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well me either, my assassin is one of my few characters that has finished all campaigns, and has a protector title. Generally though, if you play with someone else they would rather you get something else :P --Deathwing  19:21, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * (Edit Conflict X3) Perhaps we need to focus on buffing some of the Off-Hand attacks that require a Lead? Temple Strike's an awesome skill as it is, and requires a Lead. If we only had a few more, cheaper Off-Hand attacks that had good uses, you might start to see Lead attacks making a comback. As it is, people only use Leads when they "Lead" up to something... and everything worth leading up to can be reached via a shortcut. Also, those shortcuts are easier to use, faster, and often, just plain better.
 * And yes, my PvE 'Sin is still one of my best characters. The trick is not to use a PvP 'Sin build in PvE... -- Jioruji Derako.> 19:24, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * yup, wanted to say that too. i just forgot again. look at Jungle Strike. if you could somehow ensure your target is crippled, it's uber. but BMS needs a hex to cripple. now, if we have a hex, the black off-hands are just as strong and need one less skill slot. Caltrops ensures cripple, but takes that skill slot as well. Wild Strike doesn't deal any bonus damage and can be blocked. so that's not worth a lead skill slot, either. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 19:34, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

This skill is totally inferior to the warrior equivalent Disrupting Chop. Disrupting chop disables all skills for a flat 20 seconds, it's adrenal which means that you can use adrenal buffs to build it faster, it does more damage, and the warrior doesn't have to deal with a combo mechanic. A 10 sec recharge is really unviable if you want to use with lead/offhand/dual and borderline if you're going to do something like disrupting stab/exhausting assault in a moebius build. Honestly, assassins should have the best melee interrupts in the game, in the same way that warriors have a monopoly on KDs. It gives them a role which isn't just some retarded "1-2-3-4-5" spike build. With that in mind I think this disrupting stab needs to go to 5e .5s 8r with the secondary effect changed to "If you interrupt a spell target foe is dazed for 1...3...4 seconds". This allows great synergy with exhausting assault and is the sort of short term high intensity shutdown that promotes skillful play. --Symbol 09:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Setting the activation time at 1/2 second and reducing the recharge to 8 is good enough imo. Daze is a bit iffy. --Ufelder 10:08, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Personally i like the short daze idea. In the end, you still have to interrupt the skill, and it's still a very short daze. But i think that if it causes Daze i would leave it at normal attack speed so that it's not too easy to do and actually requires good timing. If it doesn't cause daze, it really really needs to be 1/2 activation. Patccmoi 14:47, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The difference between a regular speed interrupt and a .5sec one is that you can use the latter to interrupt 1s casts on reaction, while you generally don't bother trying with the former, unless you get fancy and start interrupting predictively (which is what you do with .75 sec casts when you have a fast interrupt, unless your ping is really good). 2s casts and above are really easy for both.  Honestly I don't see the problem with short daze and fast activation.  You need a snare and some good coordination to score a kill with this, it opens a window of 3-4 seconds which is roughly comparable to Bull's Strike except that bull's does more damage, has a stronger effect, and is (arguably) easier to land.  The only advantage dstab has is recharge, that sounds fair to me.  The 1/2 activation is really non-negotiable, IMO, because it makes your lead very hard to interrupt.  An alternate idea is to up the skill disable to 20 seconds so it becomes a real problem rather than a nuisance when you land it.  --Symbol 15:54, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * If you look at skills that inflict Daze on a target they're either A: Elite or B: Extremely Expensive (25e conc shot, 10a elite stunning strike, skull crack, golden skull strike). Giving this skill Daze without making it cost 25e would be insanely overpowered. --66.245.217.162 01:48, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * All those skills suck, which is why no one uses them. You don't evaluate relative power by comparing a skill to other bad skills.  Tell me how anyone can abuse a 4 sec daze that requires a melee interrupt (on a spell, not a skill), and I'll gladly change my position.  --Symbol 01:54, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * After reading these points, I change my mind about the Daze--it's a good idea. Now if only the daze-inducing elites were brought up to par, too... --Ufelder 09:41, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Again, an UNDERUSED skill, not an underpowered one. The change to lead attack made this skill amazing on interrupt sins (try it, they even work in gvg). Shard 22:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I've tried it.  It sucks horribly compared to disrupting chop, and totally falls down if you want to interrupt anything faster than 2s on reaction.  You have an odd idea of what constitutes "amazing". --Symbol 22:27, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A/W with disr. chop? assassins ain't interrupters. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 22:32, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A warrior is a melee class. The assassin is a melee class.  I see no reason why warriors should have a monopoly on good interrupts, especially with the amount of disruption they have available (hello bull's strike, hammer KDs!), and the fact that much of the sin's utility is meant to be in the form of interrupts (the skills are already there, no point in them sucking). --Symbol 22:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * there's no monopoly on interrupts, kd isn't considered interrupt, as you'll never intentionally get a 3/4s cast with a kd. rangers do that job better than anyone else. warriors are better than paragons and assassins. mesmers are spell interrupters. assassins are spikers. no other class can better single-spike than assassins. i'd still appreciate a bonus dmg and 1/2 activation on this. a lead and a dual attack with interrupts don't neccessarily mean they're thought as interrupters. the only usable assassin interrupt is a half-ranged spell. and i don't think anet didn't calculate whether assassins could interrupt or not. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 22:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Dblow and dchop are better interrupts than dstab and exhausting assault. Mesmers are not spell interrupters.  They are a toolbox class with a wide range of utility for every situation.  Are rangers designed as interrupters because they have two exceptionally good interrupt skills (savage and dshot)?  Are assassins solo spikers because SP spike exists (which accounts for, what, 7 out of the 100 or so skills available to sins)?  And what exactly is your point anyway?  Do assassins need to be specialized interrupters to have good interrupts?  I certainly don't think so, especially when you have a competing melee class with very high damage and disruption combined with great survivability (warrior). --Symbol 23:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * you're moving into unrelated topics. i said assassins aren't thought as interrupters, and this skill isn't worth using as it is if you're not by coincidence an A/W or A/R with an IAS.- Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 00:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hello? You're the one who hijacked the discussion by bringing up the "assassins aren't interrupters" non-sequitur.  --Symbol 01:16, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * can't you just stop it already? i'll use other words for it again, then: i think this skill needs 1/2 activation. but not because it's bad compared to others, but because it can't work as an interrupt without. somehow this whole discussion was dragged into comparing warriors and assassins and who interrupts best. and i'm intentionally not gonna analyze who and how. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 01:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

This attack with the Wild prefix is the only stance canceler that CAN be blocked, which makes no sense. So in order to fix it, the damage needs to be more balanced with Fox Fangs and then be put to unblockable so you can actually end stances with it. Kenshin 08:10, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Its kind of iffy though. Fox = Un-blockable. Wild = ends stances. What you suggest would be Wild Fox Strike. --<font face="times new roman" color="#990000">Deathwing 08:19, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Not to mention, it would become strictly better the Fox Fangs. I would like to see it remove stances even if it was blocked, though... make the stance-removal effect separate from the rest of the "if this attack hits" effects. If they've got a blocking stance up, they still block this, but then they lose their stance. -- <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 08:24, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * EDIT: The wording could be "Must follow a lead Attack. This attack strikes for +10...30 damage. If this attack hits or is blocked, any Stance being used by target foe ends." -- <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 08:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Making the stance removal a 'sure deal' would help the skill quite a bit. I'd agree with 'can be blocked but always remove a stance'. You could still prevent it with Blind/missing hexes. And the damage should NOT be lowered to that of Fox Fangs. It's already too low. It should be raised to around 20..52, and Fox Fangs should be raised to around 10..42. It's big numbers, but keep in mind that they require a lead first AND come out of a dagger, and +20..52 on a dagger isn't actually worth +10..42 on an axe or +10..26 on a scythe. Patccmoi 14:59, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Dagger skills deserve +10 or so additional damage when compared to other martial weapons. For wild strike how about 5e 4r with "If this attack hits it does +10...34...42 damage.  If this attack hits target foe loses a stance.  If this attack is blocked target foe takes 10...34...42 damage and loses a stance. "  --Symbol 01:08, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No you don't want that extra damage if you miss, because then you'll be using wild strike again to continue your combo, and wind up doing even more damage. Which will just leave people ranting about how it does too much damage for an off-hand. Fully agree with the stance removal even when blocked though Mi Nd L e Ss 00:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Not extra damage, just take that much. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 00:10, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a paradox really, if you take out the second effect, you'll have people unhappy because it will be the only wild prefix that has only 1 effect (wild blow gives an automatic critical hit and wild throw has bonus damage, lower bonus damage I suppose? Mi Nd L e Ss 00:37, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * uh, tbh, i believe this skill was thought as it is and should show assassins aren't vs. warriors. they have crappy overall damage and effect against them. i'm for leaving it as it is and adding a "if it's blocked, target foe's stance ends" there (no bonus dmg). - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 00:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The reasons we didn't want this one to be unblockable was we where worried it would outshine Fox Fangs, which is clearly not a very good skill I'll look at reworking this in some way and adding unblockable to it as I think any stance removing skill without it is just super weak. Once I get Fox Fangs to an acceptable level I'll tweak this to match. ~Izzy @-&#39; 05:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

This is pretty own now.--Atlas Oranos 03:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

& &
While I'm complaining about leads and offhands I might as well hit these too. They have the same problem most of these skills have, their recharges are too long. "Cannot be blocked" is a reasonably strong effect, but in today's blind and hex heavy meta there's no justification for recharges longer than 4 seconds when these skills offer only passable +damage and no other utility. 4r for both of them, and fox fangs could use a damage boost, maybe +5...29...37 to bring it up to par with wild strike. --Symbol 22:13, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Problem I have with them is that they are destroyed by so many other skills. That lead sucks due to lack of effect and same with the off hand. Expose Defenses at 3 is better than these. It will even allow hex based attacks. I don't really plan to use them ever so I don't care what happens to them. The name is really why its like that so it has to be an unblockable strike due to an enchantment. --71.184.113.36 02:30, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * There's no reason for the 10 Energy cost on Nine Tail Strile either. &mdash; Rapta (talk|contribs) 06:46, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Quite simply because it isn't 10 energy anymore. I say reduce their recharges to 4; it will synergise better with Shattering Assault (all unblockable attacks) that way and all three skills will become more viable. --Ufelder 07:25, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep these will be worth using at 4 recharge.Right now there isnt much practical use to use them rather than just grabbing expose like all the other sins. As for lead attacks they should all be 1 sec casts imo :p.--Diddy Bow 08:34, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Edited the above to add nine-tail-strike, because having a fully unblockable lead-offhand-dual combo at 4r would actually be useful. Something like Golden Fox Strike - Fox Fangs - Nine Tail Strike - Impale offers a pretty decent spike assist and pressure with plenty of slots left over for utility.  --Symbol 08:44, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I gotta agree too. It's not like there isn't other ways to prevent the sin from hitting, and atm all sins use Expose Defenses and get the same effect anyway. If you want to stop them from hitting, you got blind, you got hexes, you got interrupts, etc. And those do medium damage with 0 utility, so they should at least be fast to cycle. Patccmoi 16:10, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I say boost damage a bit, and down recharge to six. Maybe 5/./6, GFS and FF +15...33...35 damage, NTS +20...42...45 damage. At least then they could do some good damage. NeonCrusader 17:32, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * At 6r I'd want more +damage than that. I think 4r with fox fangs at +5...29...37 or even +10...34...42 would be fine, that recycles fast enough so there's only 1 normal attack needed between combos.  --Symbol 00:52, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd be ok with 6s recharge and +5..35 on GFS, +10..40 on Fox Fangs, +15..45 on NTS. Then the combo would do around +165 damage and 4 dagger attacks, so around 250 damage on 60AL, which isn't huge but since it can't be blocked and on a 6s recharge, it would make for nice pressure and/or reliable spike assist. And it can be comboed with Impale to add a lot of damage to it if a target is low enough for a kill. Anything worse than that though and it will see about as much play as it does now, which means none at all. Patccmoi 15:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Look at death blossum. 5 energy AoE dual attack with a 2 second recharge, this is a weaker 10 energy unblockable. imba anyone? Wild strike is better than Fangs due to recharge so bringing the recharge down on that makes them equal. Golden Fox Strike is just bad all around. An unblockable lead attack "Wooo....".
 * A simple way to buff the chain of these skills is to give one of them energy return or a guaranteed critical, as well as buffing the damage on all 3 slightly. 76.64.59.41 04:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 10 Energy? all of these attacks have been 5/8 for months. --Ckal Ktak 09:02, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

previous discussion
 * underpowered because:
 * Effect is too weak
 * suggestions:
 * +1...16d
 * +3...15d unconditionally. If it hits a bleeding target it does an additional +3...15d instead of inflicting bleeding.

There sure are a lot of these....anyway same problem, same solution. 10r is way too long for an offhand that offers nothing but +damage. Drop to 4r to match things like Black Mantis Thrust. --Symbol 01:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Fully agreed. And the +damage is not anything crazy like Unsuspecting Strike either. Patccmoi 02:53, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * If it at least had an 8s recharge it would be significant without being overpowered. Either that or add 15 to the second bonus damage since it does require a Lead and a Cripple effect. arredondo 18:18, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * A recharge of 8 pus it in the same bar as leaping mantis sting. 4 puts it with Mantis thrust. 10 puts it out of reach of the new trampling ox. That's all that nees to be said on this skill, if you want lead attacks to be viable, this offhand needs to be as well. --Ckal Ktak 13:07, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Basically, what you end up with, is an enchantment that removes 1 Enchantment per crit while removing the main bonus assassins get to crits. Where it really fails is relying on a random chance to cause a nominal effect. This MIGHT be better soon with Way of teh Warrior, but i think this one would be better of with something like. Basically, the costs are acceptable probably, but the effect could use a bit more UMPH seeing that it is an elite. If anything, add another positive effect while it is up, +Damage or +Health when it triggers or something similar. --Midnight08 14:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Elite Enchantment Spell. For 3...14...17 seconds, every time you successfully land a critical hit, you remove one Enchantment from your target. If you remove an Enchantment in this way, you lose 10...5...4 Energy or Dark Apostasy ends.
 * "Elite Enchantment Spell. For 3...7...10 seconds, For your next 3...7...10 successfull critical hits, you remove all Enchantments from your target. If you remove an Enchantment in this way, you lose 10...5...4 Energy or Dark Apostasy ends." Similar effect, but has a better chance of making a dent on a heavily enchanted defense.
 * this could also work "Elite Enchantment Spell. For 3...14...17 seconds, every time you successfully land a hit, you remove one Enchantment from your target. If you remove an Enchantment in this way, you lose 10...5...4 Energy or Dark Apostasy ends." By removing the critical hit cost, the ability to remove enchantments is still notable, but the costs will quickly drain the user.
 * The effect is actually really good as is, reliable crits are easy to obtain with many skills doing it, and you gotta be careful with elite enchant removal not to end up with a second Grenth. I used this skill a lot before and my main problem with it by far was its 2 seconds cast. Make it 1s cast and it'll become an interesting Assassin elite again, and it'd likely be fair when you have options like Shattering Assault and Assault Enchantment. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Patccmoi (talk &bull; contribs) 02:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC).
 * No it isn't. This is even worse than Spinal Shivers. The energy lost should be drastically reduced if this skill wants to see any use. Right now, this is even unusable in PvE. 76.64.59.41 04:31, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The energy loss is meaningless, in the sense that when you crit, you basically gain as much. Use Zealous daggers, have 14 CS (it IS some sort of requirement to use the skill to its potential, but going 14 in the attribute your elite is in isn't something special or anything), and when you crit you gain 4E if you don't remove an enchant, and 0E if you do. If you add Critical Eye and you use Zealous, you actually gain energy EVEN when removing an enchantment. So i really, really don't see how changing the energy lost would change anything here. The energy lost is hardly a limitation. The 2s cast time, that you have to use fairly regularly, is much more of an issue Patccmoi 18:41, 6 August 2007 (UTC)