Guild Wars Wiki talk:Formatting/Armor

Drafts
moved here from Talk:Armor

I've made a draft for 3 things: an art article, a bonus (function article) and a profession index. They will probably look similar to the gwiki stuff, but I did write the table stuff all out myself. It's difficult to avoid the table formatting gwiki uses, because in many cases it is the best way to present the information. Despite that I have tried a different approach where I could.

If anything looks buggy in your browser, please let me know, I am using Firefox.
 * Mesmer armor
 * User:BeXoR/Mesmer Ascalon armor implemented - B e X  [[Image:User BeXoR sig.gif|iawtc]] 05:17, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Virtuoso's armor

Naming

 * Profession index: "Profession armor" e.g. "Mesmer armor"
 * Art article: "Type armor art" e.g. "Ascalon armor art"
 * Profession art article: "Profession Type armor" e.g. "Mesmer Ascalon armor"
 * Bonus article: "Type armor" e.g. "Virtuoso's armor"
 * File: "Prof Type armor x gray front.jpg" e.g. "Me Ascalon armor f gray front".jpg or "Me ascended Enchanter's armor m gray front.jpg"

When I chose the case to use, I decided I would use English language rules, and only capitalize if the term is in the game. For this reason I did not capitalize "ascended" or "armor". You cannot find an item in the game called "Mesmer Ascended Enchanter's Armor". This is not something I am happy to realise, given the changes I helped to implement at gwiki, but I think it is important to do things correctly from the beginning.

In the guildwars.com patch notes they referred to the 15k armors as "ascended Enchanter's armor" or "ascended Gladiator's armor". They also refer to what we have been calling armor "functions" as armor "bonuses". I think using something the game developers have chosen in their documentation is better than using something we thought up.

As for filenames, I used the same ULC rules. This time I went with Aratak's idea to use shortened profession {W, Mo, Me, E, N, R, A, Rt, P, D). I used "Me ascended Enchanter's armor", but it could be "Me asc Enchanter's armor" if people decide that's better. But it should only be one way, so that we have a clear naming convention in place.

Profession index

 * User:BeXoR/Mesmer armor implemented at Mesmer armor - B e X  [[Image:User BeXoR sig.gif|iawtc]] 05:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I didn't use a gallery template, because I don't know how to make them. I prefer the table style as it looks more modern, and will differentiate the pages from the gwiki ones. I thought to myself, if someone wanted armor for their Mesmer, what would they need to find on this page? They would want to know what bonuses they could get for it, and what it would look like. I think that it fills both those needs. If you've chosen an art type you can find out the available bonuses in the art article, or if you've chosen a bonus you can find out the available art types in the bonus article.

You may also notice I sorted the armor bonuses by basic first (attribute and no bonus), then profession specific bonuses, and then bonuses that are available for multiple professions. You can't really sort by campaign anymore, because some are available in multiple campaigns.

As for the gallery part, I sorted by the complicated criteria. I wanted a maximum of 4 art types on one row (for people with small screen resolutions) and I wanted the regular versions of the ascended types to be directly above, so that you could compare the thumbnails by looking up and down. Then I sorted by the order in the game that you can acquire the armor (sorted in the way a new character would encounter the armor by playing through the storyline). This was of course, a secondary objective to having the regular and ascended art pictures atop each other.

Profession art article

 * User:BeXoR/Mesmer Ascalon armor implemented - B e X  [[Image:User BeXoR sig.gif|iawtc]] 05:17, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

For this I wanted something different from what gwiki has, but it is difficult for me because I have worked so much on the armor section over there. As you can see I experimented with the tables, but I don't think it is too successful. My intention was to make the table narrower, because users with small screen resolutions get a squished table if you dont push it below the box on the right. The problem with the new table I did is that some armor may have more than 4 crafting locations (think about Paragon Elonian crests). I am going to work on this more now, but I thought I would share it and hope that it gave someone else ideas.

I thought that it might be a nice idea not to have the galleries on the main page. I know that page load times can be a concern, so this solves that by having the data only accessible if you want it. There is also the idea that we might merge the male and female galleries.

I removed the crafting info from the box because it is accessible elsewhere on the page and there's no reason to be repetitive.

Also I was once told it's not good to start an article with a heading. Decription and general information are the same thing, there's really no need to have a heading for something so obvious.

Bonus article

 * User:BeXoR/Virtuoso's armor obsolete and deleted page - B e X  [[Image:User BeXoR sig.gif|iawtc]] 05:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I just moved this over from gwiki with some edits for new terminology and removing some templates that aren't in use or working correctly here. I also changed the table style to match what I used in the other articles and changed links.

Other comments
I emailed anet about the terms we use to refer to things from the game that don't necessarily have an in game or official name. The advice I was given was to pick whatever worked best, and if anyone came up with something better, switch to that. In terms of armor, describing the level of armor is something that should be addressed. At gwiki it's Armor (rating). I think we should double check Anet's documentation and come up with something better. Plus the brackets are annoying. - BeXoR 23:07, 8 February 2007 (PST)

Comments
On armor specific article(Mesmer_Ascalon_armor) can it have room for front and back picture? --Bob 06:29, 9 February 2007 (PST)
 * That was intended to be in a gallery page (links are under the two pictures but now I see that's definitely not clear enough), but yes! I am working on a better format for the art articles, but there will definitely be different views, and component and dyed views, whether those are on the main page there or separate will be decided later. I'll have an example soon of my vision, but feel free to do your own. I will upload a full set of my armor pictures (I'll use Mesmer Ascalon) if you want to have them shown in your example too. I feel that the one I created still looks too much like the gwiki ones, which though isn't necessarily a terrible thing, but it would be nice to come up with something new and better if possible! I think everyone should think about it because my ideas would be very different from everyone elses. If you want to do a test page you can make one as User:Yourname/Sandbox or the like and then post the link here when you're done. I really hope other people get into this and bring freshness and innovation to the table. - - BeXoR 06:35, 9 February 2007 (PST)
 * I just notice the extra link for more gallery under the screenshot. move the link on top of image. or at least between the 2 yellow cell. I prefer the second table, the only itch is the "1 platinum 500 gold". It be cleaner to just use 1500 gold. in game trade use that for some time too.. --Bob 06:38, 9 February 2007 (PST)
 * Well I was hoping the cost template would be moved here, it uses the symbols for platinum and gold and gets rid of the words, which makes it nice and small. Maybe I should upload some icons temporarily to make it look nicer. And yes, the current formatting with the gallery links isn't acceptable. I'll work on my new idea some more later. :D I'm hoping it will solve the problem with the crafting box being too wide and getting smushed when the art box is on the right. - - BeXoR 06:40, 9 February 2007 (PST)
 * I see the points of having a smaller crafting table. I'm maybe to familiar with the old one but to me they are clearer with armorer on the Y axis and pieces on the X axis.Aratak 09:32, 9 February 2007 (PST)
 * I agree, I don't think it's worth sacrificing the readability of the table just to fit it in. I am trying something that's horizontal like the old style, but without the concern of width. As least we can say "having it that other way doesn't work see?"! - - BeXoR 09:48, 9 February 2007 (PST)

How is this work coming along? Can I help in any way, or should I start my own try of design proposals? And another question, where do you think Ascalon armor should redirect (or what should be in that page)? I guess it's one of the most common search phrases when searching for armor (named Ascalon in some way) &mdash; Anja  03:03, 24 February 2007 (EST)

Standard Style
Can we get a standard Style for all Armor pictures (same Background, same pose, same Format, same size), it would look much better than X diffrent screens! Murdoc 12:04, 12 February 2007 (PST)
 * I would suggest the same as what is used on GuildWiki: 3:1 ratio, no post process effects, neutral background, either use /attention or no pose at all if it is obscuring any part of the armor (like the gloves) and check my Mesmer screens for the naming style. I'll bring the pictures I made over, once I am sure it's not breaking any licenses to have screenshots. There's some discussion about it at Guild Wars Wiki:Official content. - BeXoR 21:16, 12 February 2007 (PST)

ArenaNet contributed images
Hi guys! I just wanted to re-iterate my earlier statement that I posted on the armor section. I just wanted to let you know that we have posted an updated copyright information page, and because of this change we are now able to contribute images to the Guild Wars Wiki. I will be contributing rendered images for sections like the armor section and the weapons section so you guys can have crisp and clean images for the pages. I hope these will be helpful to you in making the pages pretty and full of information :)

I don't want to step on the toes of your policies, so disregard any of my formatting changes. I simply need to have some kind of basic structure to get the images up onto the site as I take the pictures. Feel free to take the images I submit onto these pages and use them as you concrete formatting policy and begin to build pages. --Emily Diehl 20:10, 23 February 2007 (EST)

Another draft
I have another draft of the design of the armor art pages over at my sandbox, if anyone is interested. &mdash; Anja  06:19, 25 February 2007 (EST)

User uploaded images prior to renders
So should we keep or delete them? I say we keep them since we don't know how long it will be before we get all the official renders (especially the tattoo armors). And does it do any harm having them there? -Smurf 12:52, 15 March 2007 (EDT)
 * IMO they should be kept until the official renders are up. Better to have an image of the armor than no image at all.  --Rainith 13:30, 15 March 2007 (EDT)
 * I agree. EDIT: woops, that was me forgetting to log in and sign. &mdash; Anja  13:47, 15 March 2007 (EDT)
 * I disagree, we should just be patient. It just means theres more work when the armour pics actually arrive. -- Scourge  [[Image:User Scourge Spade.gif]] 02:50, 16 March 2007 (EDT)
 * What more work? Just simply upload the new version on top of the old, finished? &mdash; Anja  04:30, 16 March 2007 (EDT)
 * aye, it may even be less work. - FireFox [[Image:firefoxav.png]] 04:31, 16 March 2007 (EDT)

Armor galleries categories
Emily is doing great a job of uploading the armor render images for the armor galleries, how about we link these armor galleries into that professions armor gallery: eg Category:Warrior armor -> Category:Warrior armor male galleries & -> Category:Warrior armor female galleries --Jamie 16:03, 13 April 2007 (EDT)
 * I'm in favor of just Category:Warrior armor galleries, seems unnecessary to split them more imo :) - Anja Astor  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|Anja Astor]]  (talk)  02:42, 14 April 2007 (EDT)
 * Well, we could split it and then introduce "Category:Female armor galleries" and "Category:Male armor galleries" too... just a thought. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 01:25, 14 May 2007 (EDT)
 * Depending on what name we are deciding to use for the galleries (discussion here) those categories could get very hard to navigate, or could work. At this time, it could work since we have the profession as the first "parameter" but I think they gallery names are going to change to "Gallery of", which makes the category less useful. - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]]  (contribs)  02:17, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

Complete Overhaul?
The title says it all... &mdash; Rapta (talk|contribs) 01:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Not really, just alot of updates ;) - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]]  (contribs)  08:04, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I wish the person(s) dealing with this good luck. I know I wouldn't have the patience to do it =P -- [[Image:Blackgeneralstar.png|19px]] ( General |  Talk ) 08:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm all excited. There goes my exam.. :( :P - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]]  (contribs)  08:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I have chocolate and glucose lollies. Yes, lollies, not American. :P I plan on doing all of the Warrior ones tonight, and then Mesmer next! This is going to be a NIGHTMARE, but
 * Anyone who is working on them, please make use of armor update if you can only move the article, etc. Most articles need to be moved, edited, galleries moved, images moved, crafting information updated. The template adds the article to a maintenance category that makes it easier for us to see which ones need more work. If you know that you've completely updated everything put "updated and verified" as your edit summary so we know we don't need to do it. - B e X  08:29, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I could help with this... it's just that since I wasn't involved from the beginning, I'm not sure what are all the things that need changing. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 07:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
 * We should make a list, since it really shouldn't be just Bexor and me doing this, that's selfish and.. maybe a bit stupid :P Where should I put the list? Atm there is a (not finished) list at Category:Armor articles requiring update. - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]]  (contribs)  08:18, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

The 'Armor bonuses' is no longer needed, but for some headgear and two collector sets (Level 20 Collector Canthan in Kaineng and Level 20 Collector Krytan in Tyria). So... why is some people editing them back and puting them 'insignia'. Isn't that 'redundant' inormation that should be in the Armor main description?
 * There is currently discussion going on where to place that info. Until then, we want to keep the box there since it contains information on PvP armor also, and headgear and collector as you said. If some have it and some don't, it doesn't look consistent, we are striving for consistency. - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]]  (contribs)  14:28, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Shall we rename "armor art" into "armor", and rework "prestige" into "elite"? --Rezyk 06:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with both those suggestions, as armor bonus now is insignia all over. Though I like the word prestige, Elite is really the term in game now. - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]]  (contribs)  10:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Not all prestige armor is called Elite, which is why it should still be used. - B e X  12:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Real galleries
The so-called galleries don't really feel like galleries to me :P just shots of armor and armor pieces from different angles. I find pages like this to be much more helpful in helping to decide which is the best looking armor. I'd like to move it into the main namespace if everyone likes it. I'm aware of how many images there are in there, but that's what a gallery is all about - images.

Whether or not it gets moved, does anyone have suggestions on how it could be improved? I tried using text columns way to make it sortable so that you could line up prestige and non-prestige armor or order things up by campaign. Maybe there's a better way to do it? -- ab.er. rant  05:16, 17 May 2007 (EDT)


 * The mesmer armor page is not enough for you? ;) Just kidding, it looks nice, especially the sorting. I think the images are a little too big though, I want to see more armor at once to be able to compare :) But then I'm probably biased towards mine and Bexor's armor pages also, so don't mind me too much :P - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]]  (contribs)  05:49, 17 May 2007 (EDT)


 * I like the idea behind it, but I don't think it's an improvement on the current style. Those pages are difficult enough to load on dialup with tiny thumbnails, I don't want it to be even less accessible for those users. - B e X  06:52, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
 * I wasn't really suggesting it as a replacement. It's more like in addition to what's already there. Mesmer armor gives an overview of how all the armor on both sexes look like. I see what I'm doing as a way to help ppl make comparisons between the armor sets. Big? Yea, they are. I wanted them bigger actually :P but thought about those at less than 1280. Mesmer armor actually has at least twice the number of images to load, and again, these are galleries. When you open a page called "Gallery", I think it's only logical to expect to load alot of images. Anyway, what prompted me for something like this was because I actually just edited a dummy page so I could put up all the ranger armor sets as big as possible side-by-side so I can compare and finally settle on which I'd prefer the most (I settled on Ancient armor, male ^-^). I might even create pages for the rest of them and just host them in my userspace :D -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 10:43, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
 * I think they would definitely be a nice addtition, in such cases as you describe. I still think the pictures are a bit big, but I realised I don't want to sacrifice detail for size. I support a move to the main namespace, I'd like to use them myself :) As you said, they aren't replacements, but additions, and there is quite a value in being able to sort and compare. - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]]  (contribs)  11:05, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
 * Do we want to argue about the name of the article like other arguments in several other talk pages :D
 * Yea, I realise the size might be bad, but it's kinda pointless to compare small thumbnails when what I want is to see the whole thing in detail. I wonder if there are any wiki plugins that makes it possible to do dynamic resizing of images... -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 02:34, 18 May 2007 (EDT)
 * Oh bleh.. no more naming discussions. :P I think we have almost settled on "Gallery of male warrior Shing Jea armor" so why not "Gallery of male warrior armor", since it's a kind of summary page of those specific galleries. Then they follow the scheme you have already used on the example page I think? - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]]  (contribs)  03:43, 18 May 2007 (EDT)


 * No argument on the name from me. - B e X  04:02, 18 May 2007 (EDT)

Floating Tables?
I am having some difficulties with many of the page layout templates that GWW is using, and would like to suggest a change. I do not feel knowledgeable enough in either code, or policy (both of which I'm learning) to try to make any adjustments myself, not to mention the fact that I am having the problem with WAY too many pages. I view the wiki in a windowed browser, and every single one of the Armor pages overlaps the materials table and the infobox, so I am forced to full screen my browser if I wish to see the entire materials table. Is it possible to position the materials table below the infobox? Maybe fill the space with text instead that will rewrap accordingly? (Previously posted on Anja Astor's talk page)--Wynthyst 19:30, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * There is really not enough text to fill that whitespace without making the page look ugly and excessively long. We tried to make the tables as narrow as possible, but there were only so many things we could do. Using the material images was one of these things. - B e X  [[Image:User BeXoR sig.gif|iawtc]] 00:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Aiine showed me how to modify my monobook.css to solve the problem for me. I just wanted to put the problem out there for discussion.--Wynthyst 22:20, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * We now about that problem, as we had it with the Skill pages some time ago. Sadly there is no method to automatically detect if the float would overlap the table so that the table is displayed under the infobox. We solved the problem by modifying the table to automatically wrap in multiple lines. That looks a bit ugly but works well; the only problem is that we cannot use that method on Armor tables as they are much more complex but it's good that you are satisfied with Aiiane's solution :) poke | talk 13:57, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Festival hats
just wondering, is there a reason the hats aren't formatted w/ the armor infobox? -- VVong | BA 21:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * They were started by someone else, pre-formatting finalizaton, and then I personally kept forgetting about them. Switch them over if you'd like. - B e X  [[Image:User BeXoR sig.gif|iawtc]] 00:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Armor page color schemes
I for one would like to say the color schemes on the armor pages are getting out of hand. Using the profession colors on the armor tables, with that peachy color on the info box is making some of the pages really difficult to look at for any length of time. Can we/should we re-think this? -- Wynthyst 06:30, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I, for one, think your concerns are a little unfounded. There are many pages around the wiki that use more colours than an armor article. And I spend a lot of time on the armor pages without any problems. The colours are used for a specific purpose - to give an instant visual key of what content is in the page. It's been a year of using this formatting without any complaints about vomiting or headaches.. lol - B e X  [[Image:User BeXoR sig.gif|iawtc]] 08:05, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Getting out of hand as in something we have changed, or simply being out of hand all along? Anyway, I don't have a problem with the colors, but if it turns out alot of people do we'll change it to something that uses less colors. As Bex said we have had no complaints in a year, but we will see if more turns up now :) - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]] 11:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC)