User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Underpowered Skills/Warrior/Archive 2

This skill is a little underpowered in comparison with Resilient was Xiko. It can't be interrupted but you only get health regeneration if you're suffering conditions. The recharge is 3X Resilient Was Xiko and you don't lose any conditions at the end of the duration. If you agree it's underpowered, then here are some options 1) decrease the recharge a bit, 2)allow it to get health regen from hexes, or 3) lose some conditions at the end &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by David Holtzman (talk &bull; contribs) 20:23, 11 July 2007 (UTC).
 * One of the main reasons is Warriors are not meant to have access to dealing with conditions, it's not really there roll, they should be required to go into secondaries to deal with conditions, or rely on other players, so while this skill exists its a bit out of class which means it's gonna have higher costs then a skill from another class, because of this it's pretty much last in line to balance because by improving this skill you only improve the warriors ability to deal with conditions without having to use another class, this isn't really a goal of ours with the warrior and therefor is pretty low on the priority list of things to change. While this skill could probably be lower on costs and still hold this true this is why this really isn't high on our list of things to change. ~Izzy @-&#39;
 * I think that it is a great warrior skill...in DoA it can mean having 9-15 regen on a warrior that is REALLY in need of it (Why cant monks just keep Seed of Life up...) --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Killer Revan.
 * I don't feel this skill needs to be buffed in the slightest. It helps with conditions, However you'd be much better off delving into a secondary to remove them, or just tough it out. I rarely use condition removal on my Warrior, instead, I focus more on Healing, and perhaps Hex Removal. As well as never entering AB without my Rune of Clarity and "I can see clearly now" inscription.--Devvu

If the functionality where changed to just: You lose 2 conditions, for every Condition removed 10 seconds of +1..3 Health regen. Recharge 15, this skill would be viable as both condition removal for warriors and to remove dazed from secondary casters (aimed at RA). Also it would give an alternative for warriors to remove conditions then mending touch, plague touch or purge conditions. The health regen is just to have the health drom mending touch effect. Recharge should be longer as suggested otherwise this skill would be better then mending touch under all circumstances.
 * The above suggestion really doesn't seem all that bad to implement.--Atlas Oranos 14:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes it does. Warriors shouldn't have condition removal without getting a secondary.  One of my complaints about the new classes is how much self-sufficiency there is - classes with good self heals, damage, speedbuffs, condition handling (signet of removal) or hex handling (pious restoration) and so on.  It's a bit absurd to give everything to the classes - part of choosing a secondary is figuring what you need to gain from it; providing everything to every class is a bad idea. --Epinephrine 12:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Eh I was only thinking at how the recharge was balanced, eh just delete the skill then, I don't think I ever saw it see any use.--72.84.76.135 06:08, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

At the moment even at highest strength this skill lasts for ~ 1/6 of its recharge, progression does not seem to worthy the effort of having higher str, changing it to 0 .. X with longer duration and / or reducing recharge will make this skill possibly more useful. Biz 08:48, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Lower recharge to 30 seconds, raise it to maybe 7...11...13 for duration, and you got a pretty good skill. Making it possible to keep up indefinately is too strong, but having a duration thats about 1/2 the recharge is a nice balance imo.--John deathblade 08:58, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I was thinking about having 0 or 2 seconds at 0 Str so any change wont be abused by non war primorys. Biz 10:38, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I actually like that idea. Lowering the skill to maybe 1...13...17 or something, and lower the recharge to 30.  Balances it, but keeps it where non warrior primaries cant use it well.--John deathblade 20:50, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

maybe change to 5e but its a v. strong skill.. dont touch recharge or duration
 * strong skill? where? how? I mean, i have never ever seen it used, even in bad builds. having 50 seconds downtime makes it quite useless. If compared to say Guiding Hands it is just bad (not that GH is any good either, but it has its uses). Zweistein 22:35, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It.. kills stuff? Guiding hands and its bretheren only work for a set number of attacks, no good for a warrior who relies on auto-attacks for much of his damage 81.105.125.231 23:07, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You're suggesting to have it up 50% of the time, which would be seriously broken. Unlike stuff like Expose Defenses that can be removed or Guiding Hands that ends after a few attacks, Warrior's Cunning is a skill. Instant activation, can't be removed in any way. It IS underpowered, but i think this is mostly because of a retarded recharge. It should be something you use at key moments for a short duration, not something that's nearly a passive buff. I'd see it much more as something like 5E/30s recharge, for 1..5 seconds your attacks can't be blocked. Then it can be used to spike reliably through lots of blocking (like kill someone in a ward with Aegis up...) but it wouldn't just allow you to ignore blocking altogether. Patccmoi 15:49, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * its 10 seconds, if you think you are going to waste those 10s with that downtime on autoattakcs, then, hmm, lol, compared to set amout of attacks, set amount of attacks gives you more. Zweistein 21:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Lowering this skills recharge is dangerous, given that it is a 'skill' and not a hex/enchantment like expose defenses or guiding hands that can be countered directly. Most new players do not remember when Warrior's Cunning spikes ruled this game for quite a while.  Do not touch this skill. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Black mischief (talk &bull; contribs) 11:32, 30 July 2007 (UTC).
 * If it had recharge of 30 and duration 0..13..17 I would gladly see it changed to Hex/Stance/Enchant. Biz 11:09, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You can lower recharge AND duration. 5 seconds(@~8-9 str) is all it needs to be usefull, if it scales from 0 it will not abe abused by nonwarriors and 30 second recharge would help it. Another solution is that it would not prevent all the blocking but instead have i.e. 50% chance of ignoring block, that way you can make it quite spamable without destroying blocking as damage prevension. Another solution is that it would only prevent blocking from either stances or enchants. Since this skill sees no gameplay, it can be completelly reworked t someting completelly new Zweistein 11:35, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You could make it 5e, 30recharge but change it to a stance.
 * It would never get used as a stance, and some of you apparently dont understand how monks work AND how warrior's cunning is properly used. It is a spike skill, used to briefly evade defenses, unleash your adren skills and then wait for recharge.  The warrior needs frenzy or flail to spike quickly and that would conflict if warrior's cunning were a stance.  It is still pretty strong as it is now, just not widely used.  You can't have a skill like this with a 20-30 second recharge, unless there are some kind of hard counters to it.  Expose defenses and Guiding hands are in the game as other options.  This skill is fine how it is, I don't see any point whatsoever to trying to change it. --Black mischief 07:54, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Half the recharge and cost, but make it lose all your adrenaline... it's an idea I've had in mind. Though I wouldn't mind some way to see it synergize like Decapitate and Burst of Aggression do. Maybe even making it a stance: 10e cost, 8 second duration, 15s recharge, take double damage while using it. A risky but very strong alternative to Frenzy. Saph 16:07, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill would be too strong at a lower recharge because it would give Warriors a huge advantage over Rangers on a split. It's too weak to use as it is, but I think if it became strong enough it'd be the kinda thing where it's too strong, allows the Warrior to get around many defenses without any support, which is supposed to be one of the balancing factors of Warriors considering the offensive power and utility at their disposal. I dunno, maybe I'm just not thinking hard enough and I just can't imagine a well balanced form of this skill. --TimeToGetIntense 10:55, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 10E 2c 25r 5...15d I'm trying to make it comparable to expose, and balance it by making it interrupt bait. (since unlike expose it can't be removed). This would also encourage active defense, since you're gonna feel silly if you brought Aegis, WvM, SoD and soldier's defense but no ints.. Oops! love, Aran 05:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer it in it's current form. With any cast time, it would make it obvious that you're about to spike. At least the way it is now you can pop it on without giving the enemy time to react to it. I don't think Warriors should have a really strong way around blocks, though. They are amazingly powerful already. --TimeToGetIntense 13:13, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No more 10 second effects with 60 second recharge plz. Its a skill not a stance, reduce recharge time to 45 and look what happens. 12 October 2007

We all know how weak and boring this skill is, so I'm just gonna go ahead with my suggestion. Switch the numbers around:

Your next 1...13...16 attacks deal +5 damage.

Becomes

Your next 5 attacks deal +1...13...16 damage. --Heelz 07:33, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * This skill has been brought up as underpowered and now is in the archive, either recharge decrease or higher number of attacks were considered. Biz 12:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill needs more than just a recharge decrease or scaling change. I'd like to add that the problem Izzy seems to have with buffing this skill seems to be to avoid passive builds. This change would make it much less passive because you can potentially add 80 damage to a chain but only every 45 seconds. So you have to wait for the right time when you want to unload all your adrenaline. Then, it would be more than just recasting this every time it's available. --Heelz 21:55, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This would add unconditionally damage on top of the attack damage, making normal attack skills instead of 30-40 hit for 47-57 (16 str) plus damage from weapons and armour penetration from str, sundering, you would deal good 60-100 damage to a caster, 5 times in a row. Just recharge, number of attacks change will do, thx, over and out Biz 09:03, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * All this skill needs is that +5 as separate number (to easier get thought prots, either SB or PS) and triggered before actuall weapon damage (to trigger reversal.) Zweistein 09:08, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Crappy Conjure? =P Biz 09:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

So you're saying what I suggested would be overpowered? How about the fact that you can still only use it every 45 seconds and when it's done, it's just taking up skill bar space which could probably be put to better use with a utility skill? --Heelz 12:00, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Should be similar to a conjure, imo. But with a downside or lower damage, as it cannot be removed, doesn't make you stick to one weapon set, and it is situated in the Strength attribute. Saph 16:27, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Make it a spike assist skill, your next 2..5 attacks have 20...80% chance to be a critical hit and to +5 dammage. Just to give an extra sting to warrior adrenaline spikes. Recharge should be about 30 so it van be used like every other spike, increase cast time to 2 in order to make it interuptable.84.192.118.21 08:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This should be changed to "For X amount of seconds, the user deals +X amount of damage". Or, the signet could be altered entirely as to "For X number of seconds, the user has +2 Strength". 76.64.191.219 00:52, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * plz buff this skill, i like using it in pve but in PvP its useless 24.66.94.141 02:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * You may want to simply change it to a utility skill. Obviously this will never change to become useful as a damage buff, so it might as well do something halfway useful.  "Your next 1...13...16 attacks have an additional 10% armor penetration and an additional 10% chance to be critical hits.  Each time you land a critical hit, you gain 5...27...33 health."  Or something like that.

What is the point of the skill? A spammy energy based attack skill tied to the primary attribute of a class that will never have the energy to spam it...and to add insult to injury the effect isn't even much better than the non-elite Protector's Strike.

Suggestion 1: Make it 2a so now you have the choice of spamming to pump your dps and pressure through block, but at the cost of gimping adrenal gain for your other skills.

Suggestion 2: Add some interesting effect, like interrupting spells if the target is enchanted or something. --Symbol 18:53, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * This should never have been made elite in first place, all it does is giving weak damage compared to other STR attacks, spammability or 3 sec recharge and activation don't help when you need 7.5 seconds to regen the 5 energy cost, as target probably blocks a lot zeal weapon wont help either. Biz 10:51, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This Attack skill cant be blocked if the foe is under an enchantment, sure pople use stances to block but if someone is under heavy pressure by a warrior the monk usually throw some enchantments on him. --Cursed Angel 15:19, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I've been testing this skill recently. It's sort of like an adrenaline Warrior's Endurance. This skill and Warrior's Endurance suffer the same problem as Flourish and Primal Rage. They give you minor buffs to DPS but also impose serious limitations on you that keep them out of use in PvP. Warrior's Endurance disallows you from using other stances that will allow you to compress your damage, and also does not buff your run speed. Flourish is a worse version of Warrior's Endurance, but allows you to use stances in exchange for very awkwardly having to stop and recharge your skills every attack chain (and usually missing one or two of the recharges in the process, ruining your energy.) Primal Rage simply sets your DPS to a certain level, and that's all you can do, beyond awkwardly buffing yourself and hoping you can overpower someone that might be blocking, blinding or healing.

Battle Rage is slightly better than these other elites in that you can keep up with a target, use attack skills and are gaining and using adrenaline in the process. It's not too clumsy, but it's not too good, either. What this skill needs is the double adrenaline dropped in favor of an IAS. Right now, what keeps it out of PvP is that it can't compress damage enough to spike someone. That, and any sensible enemy will wait for you to use the skill, then blind you. Battle Rage ends if you heal yourself or remove conditions, after all.

I'd recommend something like this: ''"Lose all adrenaline. Your attack skills are disabled for 3...1 seconds.  For 2...8 seconds, you move and attack 33% faster. When Battle Rage ends, you lose all adrenaline, but gain 1 strike of adrenaline for every hit you landed while under the effects of Battle Rage." 5 Adrenaline''

If the skill were constructed like this, you would not be able to carry over adrenaline to an attack chain using Battle Rage, but could maintain it indefinitely if you land enough hits. If you are blinded, you can safely remove the blind yourself without losing the stance. If you are under Battle Rage, you are limited to using non-elite attacks, but you can still compact the damage into a spike. Kiters can't do anything about this, aside from blocking and blinding. When it does end, if you've landed enough hits, Battle Rage essentially recharges itself while removing adrenaline from everything else (except non-attack adrenaline skills.) The skill basically becomes an elite version of Burst of Aggression. I'm certainly open to other suggestions. This skill is better off than the others I mentioned, but not by a lot. --Reklaw 09:24, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I find the most mitigating part of this skill is its end when you use a non-attack skill, it basically force feeds you a skillbar of attack skills and little room for other things, while removing this condition would be too much of a buff (you'd essentially see it replacing Rush) I feel that a clause like "whenever you use a non attack skill, battle rage is disabled for 25...10 seconds" dumping the adrenaline in battle rage itself, but at least allowing you to stance switch to frenzy when you're all charged up. --Ckal Ktak 09:00, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

High Energy Costs and "ends if you use a skill" really reduce this skills effectiveness. Possible suggestions could be a 5 Energy cost, or removing the "ends if you use a skill" section.
 * The biggest problem with DBS is that the best way to counter it is the easiest: just walk away. It doesn't buff your run speed, and you can't snare someone as it's running, so a monk will just ignore you and kite.  While that same monk will not be healing as he's kiting, you won't be doing anything, either.  He can stop to throw down a quick heal, but by the time you catch up to him, he's already gone.
 * The best thing to do with DBS is give it 25% IMS, or ensure you can't be stopped.
 * For 5...10 seconds, you attack 33% faster and move 25% faster, and if your hammer attacks hit, your target is interrupted. Dwarven Battle Stance ends if you use a skill.
 * For 5...10 seconds, you attack 33% faster and you cannot be blinded or blocked. If your hammer attacks hit, your target is interrupted. Dwarven Battle Stance ends if you use a skill.
 * Or, simply turn DBS into a skill instead of a stance. The attack speed can't stack beyond 33%, so the only thing you're really able to do is use defensive stances or a run buff. I'd certainly want to try out DBS with Rush, maybe a stance recharger.  This is one of those skills that at upper level GvG won't have any use either way, because the people you're playing against won't be stupid enough to just let you attack them while they're casting spells or attacking.  DBS is a RA, maybe TA skill at best. --Reklaw 00:10, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I dunno, the combination of a Warrior and a Rit with Warmonger's Weapon is already pretty insane. It's even worse on a Thumper. If you could stack this with a movement speed buff, it would be pretty overpowered if you consider that you normally need two characters to do this, which is perhaps already broken. This change would effectively make a Hammer Warrior able to work like a Thumper but with less DPS without the pet, but the interrupt spam built in. Thumpers at least need to keep their pet alive to function.
 * I think this would be a good skill if it costed 5 energy and had a 15 second cooldown. I want to say 10 or 12 seconds, but that might be too much. Right now it's just got too long of a timer and costs too much energy to be useful, espcially considering the fact that you can't also have a dual KD chain if you take this skill. A skill that mostly functions to force a target to move should not have such a long cooldown anyway. Realistically, you're going to make someone kite and force them to give up position rather than interrupt tons of skills. Personally, I prefer it that way rather than a skill that lets you c-space one guy and shut them down. --TimeToGetIntense 14:46, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Reduce Energy Cost to 5 Energy, Reduce Recharge to 15. This would see better days.

10 energy is too much for a Warrior. If it was 5 energy, this could be a really nice skill. --TimeToGetIntense 01:22, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah normally I really don't like lowering costs, but I just don't see how this skill could ever warrant 10 energy, unless it returned energy when you interrupted. ~Izzy @-&#39; 01:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I find 10 energy on Warrior to be incredibly clunky because I'm always hovering around 5 between Frenzy, Bull's Strike and whatever utility I have. Conjures aren't too bad energy wise but stuff like this is awful. Same problem with Hamstring, but Cripslash solved that I guess. --TimeToGetIntense 02:27, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah I'm actually playing around with a skill in GW:EN that I hope to make Hamstring viable, but well see how that goes. I completely agree with you on 10e on warriors. ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sceptical about that. There are many problems with Hamstring. I guess I might as well post that one... --TimeToGetIntense 21:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Indent reset - just a question, why was this changed in the first place? It was barely playable at 5/0/10 but 10/0.5/20 completely ruined it.  I'd think that the fear of using Savage Slash as an IAS is pretty meaningless when protstrike recharges faster and scores nasty criticals.  If the nerf was to make aatxes interrupt 55's healing breeze a bit easier, sure, but not even Power Spike has such ugly a recharge - and that's saying something when comparing physicals' and mesmer interrupts. ~Seef II &lt;?&gt; 01:00, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well now the recharge is 15, but the energy cost is the real killer. I'd use this on a Sword Warrior if it had a 5 energy cost. --TimeToGetIntense 01:12, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see the energy cost being that big of a deal personally, If you use an Adrenaline Sword Warrior that is... You don't need much energy if most of your skills are adrenaline-based. Though I do favor Disarm over this, for the fact that it's similar to a non-elite version of Wail of Doom for warriors. A little off-topic, But if you use Wary Stance to block all attack skills, Build up Adrenaline, and when Wary Stance runs out, follow up with Disarm, you've got a good 10 seconds that your foe can't use attack skills.. And without attack skills most builds do little damage to you at all.--Devvu
 * that's what shows us anet really though of E/W :rolleyes: *points to hamstorm* ;) - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 23:07, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Fixed, I think it's about time to archive some of these. :) ~Seef II &lt;☎|→&gt;
 * Nah, the recharge is too long. It should be 10 IMO. Sure, stronger than DBlow, but DBlow works on any melee weapon and has the minor advantage of an AOE effect. Savage Slash is on Sword, which is inherantly the weakest Warrior weapon without skills in consideration. --63.197.80.39 11:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. 10 is nice. 76.64.191.219 00:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Just because the Savage Slash discussion lead to this... Hamstring has lots of problems. First of all, it's 10 energy, so it doesn't fit in a standard Warrior bar. Second of all, it's a whole skillslot for just the ability to cripple. Third of all, it's overall effect isn't very valuable. Fourth problem, it has a long recharge and cripple is removed easily. I think it would be decent if it was 5 energy and 8 recharge. --TimeToGetIntense 21:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Personally, in every case that I use this skill, the cripple is more important than energy...as a PvEer anyway. Not sure about PvP though...as it is probably not as important there as keeping Varesh away from squishy heros.Killer Revan 13:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I still feel it's much better than Axe Rake, wich requires Deep Wound (easily noticable and nobody wants it to stay around long due to the high danger of that condition) As well as requiring... I belive, 6 adrenaline. Besides, you don't NEED to cripple someone, it was just an available option given to you.--Devvu
 * The ability to apply cripple at the start of a fight is nice. Is it worth 10 energy then? Perhaps you get 5e back if your target is already suffering from a condition. Is it too powerful if this and Sever Artery can keep cripple on as well as Crippling Slash? --Rob 17:27, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * 5 Energy 12 Recharge, Target foe becomes crippled for 4...15 seconds, if that foe was moving they are knocked down. - I really think this skill would become awesome if it was like a bulls strike without the damage, altho i see some issues. If it was a sword attack then sword warriors could run this and bulls strike for 2 times the kds. --Anti Oath
 * No way. KD + cripple in one skill is insane.  5e 8r is fine. --Symbol 00:28, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I know it would be very powerful, but a skill like this could add a lot to a sword warriors bar. --Anti Oath
 * Hamstring, how's this? I like the concept for a warrior, and with the new Anti KD enchant coming from monks, i think this will help bridge the gap between Crip Slash warriors and Currupt Enchantment warriors :P 71.10.103.137 02:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That's actually an interesting idea, having warrior's with 'attacks' that deal no damage and have more variation in what they do. Would certainly add som variation to the warriors bars, which tbh i think are very nicely varied already. -- ChronicinabilitY [[Image:User Chronicinability Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|18px]] 02:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ty, I really think bringing in more skills like that will add to the overall "fun factor". What I really hate in skill balances are when they just change the numbers around. A lot of skills just don't fit in the game and with so many skills really not in "play" rotation, ANet has an perfect oppritutity to try some new things out (Like remove dublicate skill ablities). PS, I also wanted something that kded in the sword line for my skill Slay (Which i wanted to be an alternative to Sever + Gash. Anti Oath 06:35, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * A KD always means that a warrior is dealing more damage because 9/10 that KD-ed target is still treated by the game for those 3 seconds as if it is kiting away, meaning more chances of crits. Also, you get 3 seconds of unkitable hits on a target, which is even more than you'd get from crippling. Adding both together makes it a rediculous combination and completely overpowered. That's why bull's strike is used on dervishes, even. Not for the damage, but for the awesome KD ability.Samcobra

and
I feel these outclassed by other sword skills such as Standing Slash. And there's not really room on skillbars for skills like this anyway. It could use some kind of utility, giving Warriors some more interesting options to play with. Maybe something like inflict cracked armor on non-moving foes, or on critical hit... Or maybe knockdown on critical hit? Anyway, point is these are pretty obsolete skills and Sword really does need some non-elite love. --TimeToGetIntense 10:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This is just high damage attack and not a bad one, there is nothing wrong with it and it hardly needs a change. Biz 19:02, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Nah, it's pretty bad. Sword needs 2 skills to inflict Deep Wound, every Warrior needs Bull's Strike, every Warrior needs Frenzy and a cancel stance so that leaves 2 skills after a res sig. Out of the remaining skills a Sword Warrior can equip, there's no way Galrath Slash is among the top 2. --TimeToGetIntense 23:04, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's the Mighty Blow of swords. Problem is that Sword DPS is low. 76.64.191.219 00:45, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Mighty Blow is more similar to Final Thrust, both being the strongest finisher of their weapon. Galrath is too mediocre as a pure damage skill. --TimeToGetIntense 01:44, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It has exact same + damage as executioners strike and I'm sure I've seen plenty of that in pvp. Biz 08:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If I had 10 skill slots, I would use Galrath Slash too o_O. As noted, sword has a few issues such as needing two skills to deep wound a target and managing an already tight skill bar with the right skills. Galrath/Silverwing loses to other skills because it does big damage, but in the case of a sword, you could just as easily bring final thrust for virtually double the bonus damage (+74) in the hands of a pro, or you could bring sun and moon for unblockable dual hitting (adren building + conjure proccer). Galrath/Silverwing aren't bad, it's just that sword has other options that are better. In PvE, you could easily do a Dragon Slash + Galrath + Silverwing bar for just pumping out dps. --Tensei 14:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Meh, I would still prefer the Utility of Sever/Gash for Dslash, over raw dps. Just my opinion however. Readem   Promote My Ban Here  05:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Reguardless, there's something wrong if Standing Slash is strictly better and no one even uses Standing Slash. --TimeToGetIntense 23:25, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Reduce cost to 5, 1/2 activation time?--Atlas Oranos 12:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * How about "If this attack strikes a foe suffering from Deep Wound, that foe is Knocked Down."? I think utility is the way to go. More damage or lowered costs/activation just leads to power creep. A KD that depends on your target having a Deep Wound is so conditional (especially on Sword) that you might prefer to use Shock instead since it's unconditional. But then again, it's only 8 adrenaline and doesn't cause exhaustion, so it would allow you to pressure harder than if you had Shock, perhaps. If you decided to bring both, you'd have to drop Bull's Strike or Final Thrust. And if you're running Conjure you would have to drop Sun and Moon Slash or Bull's Strike. --TimeToGetIntense 22:08, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, the reason behind my suggestion is that swords are lacking in spike a little damage. Gash->Galrath with 1/2 activation could be nasty.--Atlas Oranos 20:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that makes it push Final Thrust off of sword bars. I think it's best to let Final Thrust be the strongest pure damage sword finisher because it's one of those skills that becomes stronger as the user is more skilled. I think a 1/2 activation Galrath would actually be a lot stronger than Final Thrust.. I mean, if you have time to follow up with Final Thrust, that means you have time to go normal attack -> 1/2 second attack. Galrath could be used like that and give you a double hit with 40 damage tacked on the second hit. It would definetly be stronger and more versitile than Final Thrust because you could go straight to Galrath if you don't have time for a normal speed attack, but if you do, you can get a more powerful (and unconditional) finisher. --TimeToGetIntense 22:25, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

hey don't be afraid if i'm putting Decapitate under the underpowered section, i don't think it is underpowered but anyway it needs to be reworked if you want it to get out of every Axe Warrior's secret dreams (gosh that looks epic), unfortunately there isn't such a section here (or i don't know it exists). One thing you may argue is that Axe Warriors have enough place in the current meta. that is perfectly correct, so i don't know if ppl really want this skill to come out but let's see :p I'm probably not wrong if i say that Decapitate isn't used in PvP (i don't know about PvE but Triple Chop and stuff are certainly more usefull) just because it makes you loose all your energy and adrenaline. However this isn't the things i want to change, the fact is that Decapitate is meant to be used as a finishing blow but doesn't have what is needed to fit correctly in this job, which is a low activation time. I'm mainy talking about giving this skill a 1/2 activation time but with obvious changes in order it not to become overpowered though. If Izzy drops his eyes here maybe he could test some of these or just think about it one day i dunno. Imo i'd like to see if it is indeed overpowered to make Decapitate 8/0.5/All Adre&Energy Loss since the counterpart is kinda heavy. If it is, this skill's adrenaline cost could be raised up to 10 strikes or you could leave it at 8 strikes but lower its bonus damages to those of Executioner's Strike or somewhere between +30-40. You could even change "this skill always results in a critical hit" to "this skill cannot be blocked" with proper lowering of the bonus damage if you find it too powerfull (not beyond those of Executioner's Strike though, imo) This way this skill could be used as a good finisher (too low activation time atm, your target will probably gets healed before you hit, moreover you'll waste all your energy & adre), and fit in a bar like Dismember-Agonizing Chop- Decapitation. Besides the loss of both adre&energy limit the way warriors could help (themselves or their team), they wouldn't be able to easily use Mending Touch, Conjure, Shouts like Shields Up, Fear me, Watch Yourself. They couldn't use Frenzy too, since they wouldn't be able to cancel it quickly after spiking, the use of stances and energy based attacks will be made more difficult too. However they could bring Purge Signet to help their teams so the overpoweredness of his skill may not be as high actually. Waiting for discussion and opinions :p  Azul   15:18, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think one thing that could help Decapitate is to have its DW trigger straight. Few skills do this atm, but some do (i know of Cruel Spear and Augury of Death). This way if you Decapitate and the DW should kill, you don't need to wait for the next hit (for which you have no adren or energy). I know those DWs trigger straight because they're linked to a conditional that is checked BEFORE the damage (if target isn't moving, if target is below 50%) but if that's required just code a bogus conditional like 'if target is hit he suffers from a DW' that is checked before the axe damage. It would make it more efficient as what it's meant to be, a finisher. Patccmoi 15:37, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If it made the damage come after the Deep Wound it would become the top Axe elite for its uber powerful spike damage. Done25 15:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That would certainly help for its efficiency indeed but even if this skill does a lot of damage, i think it will be more efficient if it could be used faster (activation time). But DW triggering before would really help, no need of skills that apply DW before, leading to more flexability concerning builds. If we could get both, i'll just kiss every registered member down here xD. However it could be enough if what patccmoi suggested was made, you could still use TS as an IAS  Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 15:55, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It would still have a huge downside, and it's not like doing Evis-Agonizing-Exec makes the DW triggers much longer after (Agonizing hits .25s after Evis). It would have the advantage of requiring a single skill slot to spike, with the disadvantage of screwing up energy and adrenal. But hell, maybe you could make something nice with signets on that bar, using interrupts like Leech Sig, Sig of Disruption (the new one), Heal Sig, Rush, etc. Making a bar that requires a single attack skill to function can really open the utility you put there at the cost of pressure. Patccmoi 16:01, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Most decapitate attack chains have been something like Executioners -> Decapitate -> Critical Chop. I don't see how DW before the damage is important to the viability of this skill.  1/2 attack speed might be OK.  I don't see it changing the usage levels, solely based on that buff alone.  I think it is a skill which will see limited usage simply because of the entire metagame and what the skill is designed to be (a major spike skill).  Most builds demand axe pressure or teleport spike (Shadow Prison).  I would encourage you to speak with some top PvP warriors who've used decapitate or use the skill in gameplay yourself before making arbitrary recommendations.  Given the past nerfs of Eviscerate (lower damage bonus), I don't see how you would buff this skill other than lowering the adrenaline to make it more interesting, yet keep it in it's niche of usage.  It already does as much damage as final thrust.  I guess I don't see the issue here. --Black mischief 17:35, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * How exactly do you use Agonizing Chop after Decapitate? Critical Chop is -possible-, but it still requires weapon switch and it ends up being about as fast as hitting a normal attack after, it's just that it does some minor +damage on top. The thing is, if the DW triggers straight, this would become what i think it was meant to be, which is a finishing blow. Not necessarily as part of a chain or anything (you could always do Exec->Decapitate though), just if you see a low health target, you Decapitate and that's it. 1 hit kill. You wouldn't need any other attack skill on the bar for that purpose, which can then open up your bar for different utility (as i said, likely signet-based in part because those don't need adrenal or energy). I saw one top guild using Decapitate before, and it was during all the Mesmer spikes with Spiritual Pain, where they basically had 1 Decapitate warrior spiking along with 4 Mesmers, and Decapitate was the one single hit he did in the spike (was actually an awefully clean spike). I never saw anyone good doing something like Exec-Decapitate-Crit Chop, i just saw people trying that in RA. If that's the kind of thing you wanna do, you're really much better off taking Evis and the damage you lose is made up by the fact that you have energy and adrenal to use other stuff. I think Decapitate would be useful if it could be your 1 single spike skill on the bar. DW before the damage seems like it would allow that better. Patccmoi 17:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that agonizing chop remark, yes it is only critical chop (people weapon swapped). There is typically other damage there that all lands at the same time, so I see your point but I also don't think it's going to make the skill significantly more viable.  Some damage usually lands after the decapitate attack because it's never all timed perfectly anyway.--Black mischief 03:55, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hey Izzy are you reading any of this? Done25 17:59, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Izzy looks busy right now, currently balancing already existing skills if i recall correctly (hey Decapitate is one of those :p). Patccmoi gets a point i think, Decapitate as a self sufficient-spiking skill. It does about 250 on its own (including 100 dmg from DW). Basically, if DW triggers first and then Decapitate's damage, those 100dmg are those you don't have to "waste" before applying DW by using Executioner for instance, this is what is appealing about it. Why would you attack somebody with 600hp, while you can directly lower his health to 500 ? With Decapitate alone in this case you can moreless half one's health (60 AL). Using Signets is a good idea, well this is actually the only thing you can easily do, even the new Warrior Signet, or those Inspiration signets but it seems a bit weak though. But that could be interesting. Anyway you can still use adrenaline and energy based skills if you just use Decapitate for spiking purpose or to finish off an already injured player, it is just that it would be harder.   Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 10:14, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I remember E Jang ran decapitate once in WM in a euro-spike guild. It was ran along side a shadow prison warrior and 3 mesmers I think, and he used rush as his cancel stance for frenzy, which meant you have to be in frenzy before the spike and do it in the last few seconds of frenzy's duration, or you have to hope you can get 4 hits off after decapitate in order to cancel.  The spike was brutal, by the way.  Pluto 00:19, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I've used Decapitate in teams for both GvG and sealed play. It's fairly strong right now, just not ideal.  I think some of the comments in this thread are from inexperienced players.  I know a few different top 20 guilds who experimented with it successfully in GvG. --Black mischief 06:50, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah know this way played at the time Spiritual Pain mesmers where popular, i'm not saying it is weak or whatever, just that it's a work-alone big damage stuff that doesn't have what it takes to be perfect at it. Honestly i think it should if we consider the drawbacks, when i'm talking about changes it's activation time or unblockable or DW that triggers before that's all this skill needs imo (with the proper adjustements that go with them). It's strong yeah, not ideal for sure, i don't want it to be ideal let's say "in every way", i don't want io to be ideal at spiking (which would mean every suggestions above are adopted), just that it needs something more for its purpose. It saw a bit of play of course, but when you want to spike that way (along with midline casters i mean), Warriors turn to Shadow Prison, Dismember, Agonizing Chop rather than anything else (with Rt support). They would end up to something similar by using Shadow Walk, decapitate, -switch- dash but because it can't be used that often it's forgotten. If decapitate had something 'more' then 'maybe' it would make it more interesting. It's not like if the meta would change, this skill would see some play (as opposed to Cry of Frustration for instance, which is used when spell caster spikers come out), just think this skill should be changed a bit to be more attractive even if you can do something with it i agree. I'm not arguing every skill in the game should have their own trademark to have the same chances to be played, this skill's the strongest warrior (elite) tool in terms of dmg it just needs one of the things that non-elite skills that help spiking have. It's just like if BS, which only use is to blind (some dmg though), had a drawback that would lower it's appealing to the one of Blinding Flash with few more skills to compensate (longer activation time, higher/same cost for example) even though it would last longer.

btw should this page be moved to the new one ? Azul  08:14, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Either this skill will get buffed and render Eviscerate useless, or this skill stays in the shadow of Eviscerate. I actually prefer Decapitate because it allows me to kill people in 3-4 hits in RA, in tandem with Burst of Aggression. I don't think this skill is perfectly fine, change it in any way (as in, removing one of the downsides) and it'll be overpowered, making people demand a buff for Eviscerate. Or the entire functionality of the skill could be changed: making the DW conditional and removing the downsides, or something. Saph 14:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Not quite sure the edge between Decapitate and Eviscerate is that thin.Besides we don't want it to overclass Eviscerate, he's got a nice place in its shadow imo :p The two "main" downsides energy&adrenaline loss will always tend to make Eviscerate better in the way that it allows you to bring skills like bull's strike, stances and such that help pressuring/chasing the opponent, let's say you'll spike better with Decapitate but you loose lots of effectiveness apart from that, an effectiveness which is needed in teams that do not rely only on powerfull spikes. As long as we keep both energy&adre loss but buff reasonably Decapitate, it shouldn't kill Eviscerate. Decapitate shouldn't become a kind of Eviscerate n°2 as you said, it would make a stupid rivality between those two skills, it should have its own way of playing, therefore keeping what makes him a bit unique imo. As long as it doesn't become this eviscerate n°2, any changes can be interesting but if adre or energy loss or both are removed i'm afraid it would tend to become so (and here it might become too powerfull) even though there might be nice suggestions that would give this skill another direction which are always welcomed ^^  Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 15:18, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I heard of people making macros for decapitate -> cancel action (gets rid of weapon swapping delay) -> switch from 15 -5 to 15^50 axe -> crit chop, does this (still? even?) work? &mdash; Skuld 14:56, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh i've never tried it with the cancel action button, i'll go test it right away :p  Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 15:18, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah it works perfectly this way. It kinda remove all the delay that's really interesting hey, just like if you could use critical chop directly after decapitate. thanks for sharing this trick Skuld ^^, gotta add it to this skill's page. However i'd like to see Izzy, if it is a bug is Anet planning to fix it or not ? because it adds something really good to this skill actually. In its current form, using Crit chop without delay would make Decapitate triggering DW first less important since you'll trigger it right after with Crit' Chop.   Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 15:40, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm gonna have to say that the accidental change to a 1/2-sec cast seems like the best idea for buffing this skill, and might give it a use aside from Eviscerate 2.0. Riotgear 00:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Make it remove all enchantments. That way you are bound to /D as a secondary and cant use it with other warrior buffs like JI, SoH or OoP/OoV/OoA. And it's easily countered by enchantment remove prior to the spike. Makes it strong, but fragile.84.136.225.219 13:20, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * But make sure it removes all Enchantments AFTER you lose all energy. 84.136.225.219 13:27, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I dunno, I think this skill is fine the way it is. It's too similar to Eviscerate to buff I think. A rework might be cool, but I think Cleave needs love first, at least Cleave was supposed to have different niche than Eviscerate in the first place. It seems like Decapitate was one of the skills that was supposed to force you to get NF, but failed due to it's lack of flexibility and intimidating drawbacks. --TimeToGetIntense 04:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Add dazed+blind. I mean, you are cutting their head off, it seems like it would slow down their spell casting a little, and probably make it slightly hard to see. --Deathwing 04:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

You want it to see some use, drop the lose energy/adren bit and change it to a scalable 6..4 disable all skills condition. You still effectively lose all adren and can't follow up with an energy-based attack (like Crit Chop or PS), but you change the skill from being completely unworthy of the skill slot (and the two or three that you use to support it, like Zealous Renewal and SoPL, which would no longer work with a disable skills effect) to something that could actually be used in anything longer than an RA match. Krowman 18:11, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think anet hasnt touched this skill because they don't want a skill that is a "boss attack" kinda skill. Currently this skill is nearly like charging up your death beam, once it's ready your screwed if you arent. If this skill did +52 dmg +dw +crit +1/2 activation, well this skill would just be absolutely insain. Now if you add it triggering dw before the damage so you can kill with it, well that's just a scary thought. Then again with a skill name like "devistating chop" and "Decapitate" I would expect this skill to be very scary. Anyways, I think it hasnt been updated yet because it's a hard one to deal with, if you lower the damage you have an underpowered evicerate and if you lower the activation time this skill is really over powered. I think people just need to be a little more creative. and figure ways around it's massive draw back once used. --Lou-Saydus[[image:User Lou-Saydus Hail Storm.jpg|19px]] 17:53, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Heh, way to not touch on my post at all. Krowman 06:20, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Having it disable for even one second would be enough most likely to catch it.--Atlas Oranos 00:50, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Decapitate: You lose all adrenaline and all energy. If this attack hits, you deal +5...41 damage. If you're target was above 50%, you also deal a deep wound for 5..17 seconds. This attack always results in a critical hit.
 * Reason: This would change the mechanic to be similar to Reapers Sweep, the deep wound would get triggered by the damage, and maintain a powerful effect. Such a heavy investment should be rewarded as such. //Problem. 02:28, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Damage is horrible, I would suggest buffing it to executioner's strike damage wise.--Atlas Oranos 08:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the reason the damage is so low is because it comes with a low cost. If you can maintain energy wisely, this skill can be used far more often and to greater effect than Executioner's Strike. [[Image:User_Tr33zon_Signature.jpg]] Tr33zon (Talk - Contribs) 09:43, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Could you explain to me why Quivering Blade does the same thing for more damage then?--Atlas Oranos 07:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Swords have inherently lower damage then axes, so bonus damage can be higher with out changing damage done. Besides Quivering blade has its own balancer in form of selfinduced daze. Biz 10:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Cleave is inferior to Eviscerate because an Eviscerate Warrior will always deal more damage over time. With Cleave, you must take Dismember, which has no bonus damage. With Eviscerate, you get bonus damage on that slot that would normally be used by Dismember, plus you have Executioner's Strike (or Agonizing Chop). Bottom line, Eviscerate compresses more abilities on your skillbar and Cleave does not. I think that Cleave should get some kind of utility. That would make it interesting while more damage wouldn't. --TimeToGetIntense 10:59, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The question is... what utility could it use... cannot be blocked?--Atlas Oranos 12:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Dont say Evicerate purely damage wise is almost exactly half the Cleave as deep wound isn't really "damage"+can be removed effortlessly and due to double adrenaline cost. Cleave is "ok" for a core elite but +5-10 dmg might tip it into the "good" skills . Biz 10:16, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * My point was... you need a Deep Wound on your bar and Eviscerate provides it. If you have Cleave, then you need to have Dismember. Dismember doesn't add any damage, so Cleave has to out-damage Eviscerate and Executioner's Strike over time, which it falls slightly short of. --TimeToGetIntense 00:47, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * While comparing skills its more reasonable to compare one skill vs another then one skill vs skill combination. =) - Biz 05:48, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * +25% AP, stacking with Strength? That might be too much but the skill doesn't have any utility like quivering blade, at least let it be more than passable for damage. ~Seef II &lt;☎|→&gt; 01:21, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * He is comparing Dismember and Cleave Vs Eviscerate and Executioner's Biz.--Atlas Oranos 16:10, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * How about "You gain 1 strike of adrenaline for each condition on target foe." It would be possible to repeat Cleave several times if you used Dismember, Axe Rake and Axe Twist. It would be really beastly on split. It might need to be increased in adrenaline cost or have the adrenaline gain capped at 2 strikes. Another option to balance that would be to lower the condition durations on Axe Rake and Axe Twist to like 7 seconds. --TimeToGetIntense 23:54, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I remember seeing Izzy say he didnt want axe users to lineback. So thats up in the air... could be... if the target is enchanted to gain 1-2 adrenaline, I think that would be just under overpowered. Then again im just throwing ideas out there so I have not been thinking on it too much.--Atlas Oranos 00:47, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * My suggestion doesn't really promote linebacking... I even suggested lowering the durations on Axe Rake and Axe Twist to compensate. I don't think Axe Rake and Axe Twist are effective linebacking tools in their current form and I don't think having Cleave benefit from conditions would make them suddenly good linebacking tools. --TimeToGetIntense 21:54, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * True, we just have to wait to see what Izzy wants to do if he decides for a skill balance this month.--Atlas Oranos 22:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Add bleeding 85.160.87.222 20:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

The thing that really kills this skill is that, before deep wound, it has higher DPS than Eviscerate if and only if it is the only adrenaline skill on your bar. There was a thread on guru about it somewhere, but I have no idea where. What it boiled down to was that because using an adrenal skill reduces all your adrenaline pools by 1, Cleave's spamability actually gave it a weaker DPS. Also keep in mind that all these calculations completely ignored the 100 damage from deep wound. (Regardless, it's not DPS that kills things, it's big chunks of damage, which Eviscerate excels at.) Armond 07:44, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think the DPS really matters, that's why I suggested adrenaline gain based on conditions. This makes it viable as a pressure elite because you can combo it with "Fear Me!" and also makes Axe Rake and possibly Axe Twist part of that bar, which are definetly pressure oriented skills. The problem right now is you don't deal more damage than an Eviscerate Warrior no matter what you do with Cleave, but it you could gain more adrenaline using Cleave, you'd definetly have more DPS and be able to spam "Fear Me!" --TimeToGetIntense 02:49, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea of this skill, but the recharge is way too high. Furious does far more damage and has nearly 1/3rd of the recharge. That leaves the utility of the skill as its biggest benefactor: interrupting a target when you critical. Axes critical 22.3% of the time at 16 att. That's not a very strong utility. This skill needs at least a 9 second recharge to make it spammable enough to warrant its active use, as the chances of interrupting your target aren't reliable. I can see it being used this way on a Warrior's Endurance build or, heaven help us, a Flourish build. Either that, or this skill needs to increase the chances of a critical hit, to the point that it's almost a sure thing. To me, that sounds stupid, though, as it ends up just being a glorified Disrupting Chop / Swipe. This skill just needs a change. --Reklaw 23:18, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It was nerfed from + dmg on a 10 s recharge because it was too good at compressing damage during a spike. Same reason Agonizing Chop went from 0.5 to 1 s activation recently. ~Seef II &lt;☎|۞&gt; 02:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Why is there a knockdown condition on this skill? Did I miss something? Last time I checked, warriors can't KD an enemy in Axe Mastery. Was this skill made for Shock warriors? Even if it was, why have it be adrenaline-based? A KD-condition skill should either be energy-based so it can be followed up reliably, or be adrenaline-based and link up with other adrenline skills that are either no attributed or are in the same line. The only skills I can see this being useful with on a pure warrior are Shove and Coward, both of which are poor elites. This wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for the fact that all of this effort is put into making someone bleed, which can be very easily removed. Perhaps this skill's condition should be cripple, not KD, as that would necessitate either a clever build or using Axe Rake, which already has a requisite in a deep wound condition. Or, your target only begins bleeding if he is moving. Or, if the target is above 75% health. In all of these cases the bleeding duration should be lowered. I get the feeling this was made as another Penetrating clone with an incredibly obscure condition to make the 5 adrenaline req valid and to make the lengthy bleeding condition valid on a 5 adr req skill. IMO, since Axe Mastery revolves a lot around deep wound and pressure/spike damage based on recognizing target health, bump this skill up to 6 adrenaline and add the condition "if target is above 50% health. --Reklaw 23:18, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Shove makes you use all adrenaline. -- Gordon Ecker 05:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Right, right... So not that. --Reklaw 06:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

bull's strike/shock &mdash; Skuld 19:14, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Bleeding is one of the weakest conditions in the game. This skill was never used because of that. The KD condition is easy to fulfill and you'll be doing it anyway in PvP, but it's really pointless to use Bleeding unless you have the ability to spam it everywhere. The way it works for Sword is that Bleeding is required to open up your money skill, Gash. This works out pretty well, but that's not the way Axe is supposed to work, so weak conditions like Bleeding are pretty dumb to have on an Axe Warrior. It would just encroach on Sword's territory if the same approach were used for this skill that is used for Sword. Therefore, I think this skill should be left alone or completely changed. --TimeToGetIntense 01:33, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Since I mentioned it in the Fierce Blow section. Let's see: Dismember 7a -> 5a a long time ago, this has seen only a duration buff from to  which is still pretty trivial. At 6a on a slower weapon, not to mention inflicting a weaker (haha) condition, what's wrong with putting this guy at 3a or something? Sever Artery is at 4, Dismember at 5, Cripslash at 6. I'd say either halve the adrenaline cost to 3 strikes or make it inflict Cracked Armor for some odd combo with Body Blow - KD-less hammer warrior? =( ~Seef II &lt;☎|→&gt; 08:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Will finally respont to this comment by saying I agree. Weakness is probably the lowest costed condition going, even bleeding seems to come at more of a premium sometimes, but this skill simply doesn't reflect that. Also, Weakness isn't as great for a hammer warrior as it perhaps ought to be, otherwise we'd see them casting Withering aura on themselves. --Ckal Ktak 20:49, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, Weakness is effective assuming it lasts a long time. Condition removal is just too fast and easy for Weakness to work, so I don't see this skill being used at 3 adrenaline or even 1 adrenaline. I don't even know what would make this skill good. Hammer Mastery has enough good skills with a variety of uses. --TimeToGetIntense 02:28, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Wow, this list sure is huge. :) With the most recent buff to Mighty Blow is there any chance of a buff to Fierce, maybe to 5 adrenaline or inflicting Cracked Armor, so as to promote something resembling a Forceful Blow -> Fierce Blow -> Heavy Blow chain? It won't fly in GvG, as Forceful and Heavy are themselves in need of a bit of help, but opens up more possibilities. My main beef is that for one more strike of adrenaline, Mighty Blow is strictly superior to Fierce, and if you're running an elite hammer knockdown you're going to have 7 adrenaline anyway for your spike.  May as well knock down Fierce to 5a so as to flow with Forceful easier, as bad as that combo is. ~Seef II &lt;?&gt; 04:31, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Devastating Hammer and this are a match made in heaven.  —g?????  ? /?] 20:11, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * If you've got the adrenaline for Devastating Hammer, you've got the adrenaline for Mighty Blow. --Kale Ironfist 13:09, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Fierce Blow was fine up to a little while ago. The buff to Mighty Blow was much needed and appreciated but now, for just one more strike of adrenaline, which Dev Hammer warriors are almost certain to have - they can use Mighty Blow for an unconditional +38 damage (14 hammer). If anything, Fierce should just recieve the same buff that Mighty Blow got to even up the battlefield. Right now, there's close to no reason to bring Fierce at all. Even with buffed damage, it still has to compete with Heavy Blow, which offers something (Knockdown at the expense of adren) that Fierce (and Mighty) can't do.--Tensei 17:27, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Fierce is fine really, they should just revert mighty blow and power attack back to where they were before.
 * Those buffs were needed. Maybe not Power Attack (Prot Strike is still better), but Mighty Blow needed it. --TimeToGetIntense 23:10, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I suggest 6a, + unconditional + conditional, or 5a and current damage. At 14 spec, that's +43 damage if you hit it on Weakness, which outclasses a 16-spec Mighty Blow.  Dropping cost to 5a simply makes it more usable in PvE; Mighty Blow would still be strictly superior.  As for weak hammer skills, when's Staggering Blow going to see some love? ~Seef II &lt;☎|→&gt; 06:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * When it costs 3 adrenaline. --Tensei 14:50, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

"Belly what?" Exactly... --Heelz 05:42, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well... I consider it a balanced skill. Thing is, it's just pointless to blind stuff with a Hammer warrior. Blinding spellcasters is just retarded, and if linebacking, the blind will get removed instantly anyways. It's just the nature of the skill; if this will ever have to see use, it'd have to be a completely different skill. Saph 08:10, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Cooldown is still stupid though. You might as well make it 5/1/10. Sure, you could blind a lot potentially with it, but you still have to knock the guy. Would help hammer warriors in PvE too Patccmoi 15:31, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Try Flourish, Mokele Smash, Hammer Bash, Crushing Blow, Belly Smash! --TimeToGetIntense 10:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Drop recharge to 20 and let it give deep-wound to the knock-downed foe. 84.192.118.21 08:21, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be cool to drop the Blind and add conditional damage not much like 3-12 when target foe is knocked down and if foe is knocked down will extend your previous knock down 2 seconds. recharge 25 seconds, 5 cost. Ashesfalldown 11/20/07
 * How about 3 A, 1..10 Sec Blind with 1..10 Damage, if this skill misses, you are blinded for 1..10 Seconds. Would be a fairly useful skill, not overpowering etc.

Forceful wouldnt be so bad if it didnt kd you when it missed. My suggestion is to remove it completely OR make it knockdown your target if he blocks(not sure if that would be imba or not).--Atlas Oranos 09:28, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Whit out self KD it would be overpowered considering weakness and high (for hammers) bonus damage in relatively low adrenaline cost, there is always the option of bringing anti self kd skills. Its fine as it is right now. Biz 10:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * How is it fine when no one uses it? It doesnt even kd someone else atm, and mind you, heavy blow does alot of damage and kds for the same thing and is nonelite.--Atlas Oranos 17:33, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Also the knockdown would only occur when someone blocks, so its not like you will be able to kd then spike effectively with this skill.--Atlas Oranos 17:37, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Heavy Blow does less damage and you end up losing all adrenaline, not very fun thing todo. Biz 07:35, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Still used with devastating hammer. If the damage has to be tweaked fine, but this skill sucks as it is.--Atlas Oranos 17:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yay dead monk. --Deathwing 00:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

No one uses Quivering Blade, Cleave, or Prepared Shot (the dps-pressure elites) in GvG. Even DSlash has gotten uncommon. I'd just change the KD on this skill from self to target. ~Seef II &lt;☎|→&gt; 19:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think anyone would use a Hammer elite that doesn't have an unconditional KD and some niche compared to other hammer elites. Hammer has 3 good elites that are generally considered solid choices in GvG, which is better than most attributes, anyway...
 * Why would a Forceful Blow Not KD your target if they block? IMO, change to "If blocked your target is knocked down. If forceful blow misses, you are knocked down". Granted, that might make it worse if you have a habit of missing due to blind spam ETC, but it would be a KD able to cut through stuff with SOD and such.--Zarfol 03:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I've actually been using this skill with some success lately. I run Warrior so often that some days, I like to take a seemingly bad elite and make it work.  In the end, I found it was actually more effective than the standard DH build.  I saw Deathwing's build post and thought, "I guess I'm not the only one that figured this out."
 * The trick with most any warrior build that most people seem oblivious to is that it's essential to compress your damage. Most DH builds do this with Frenzy + Rush.  The nice thing about Forceful Blow is that it has a pretty high damage (+42, same as mighty blow and fierce blow after its prereq), and it applies weakness, which you can use for the best non-elite KD in Hammer Mastery.  The beautiful thing about it is that you don't need adrenaline after your second attack, so it's perfectly acceptable to bring Burst of Aggression.  You can do Frenzy + Rush if you'd like, but there's almost no point.  I use Distracting Strike as a quick followup attack, in case the target is still alive.  They're beginning to stand up after Power Attack, and Distracting Strike, unlike Distracting Blow, deals damage.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but as of now, it's the only 1/4 cast attack a warrior can bring these days that still deals damage.
 * There are basically three options for a hammer warrior in PvP: Backbreaker, Devastating Hammer, and this build. Backbreaker is rarely used despite its long KD, because of its long KD, and its long charge time.  You can get through a whole Frenzy without fully charging Backbreaker.  Plus, after you KD a target, it's very awkward to land that essential SECOND KD that will completely deny a monk the opportunity to throw up RoF or the like to save his hide.  So, it doesn't see much use.  DH is the favored because it can almost completely deny a monk the chance to respond, aside from a window of opportunity to cast a 1/4 or maybe a 1/2 cast spell.  When you Frenzy-compress your attack chain into a spike, the utility takes over and can take a 500 hp character down to 0, given your target is a little unprepared, or dense.  Forceful Blow is a little different.  It's almost exactly the same as the DH's means of applying utility, except the damage spike comes BEFORE the KD.  This means that the window of opportunity for a monk to save himself is not after the KD, but right before it.  Only a single KD is needed in that chain to completely deny the monk the chance to save himself.  The advantage of having the KD in the middle of your chain is that if you've already successfully landed your first hit, your target has already died, barring any blinds or blocks that is.
 * I compared my build to the DH build using a perfect Vamp Hammer on the Master of Damage:

vs.


 * What I found, surprisingly, is that the FB build is both faster and deals more damage.
 * I tested the FB build using both the attack chain up to Distracting Strike, and up to merely Power Attack. The Master of Damage reported that the FB build, in 6 seconds, did 551 damage (my best result) for a rough DPS of 91.  The best damage was 137.  The chain without Distracting, if anyone is wondering, lasts 4 seconds and dealt (my best result) 377 damage, for a DPS of 94.  Best damage was 116.
 * The DH build, after multiple tests, dealt, in its attack chain, 334 damage over 6 seconds, for a DPS of 66. Best damage was 116.  That was my best result.
 * Keep in mind what may skew the results is if the timer just barely goes over that extra second mark. Still, I'd say that's an impressive result.  I'll be using the build more from now on, for a little further testing, but so far it's done well.
 * The biggest problem with a decent FB build is that you don't have many options, since you're limiting yourself to using Heavy Blow if you want to go the utility route for PvP. The above build is basically the only build you can run in PvP and have success, aside from some minor changes.  That build also runs into energy problems if you start abusing all three energy attacks with BoA running.
 * I suppose the PvE equivalent (or something just for fun) would be mixing Forceful Blow with Mighty Blow, Fierce Blow and maybe Body Blow or Power Attack. It's fun seeing all those +42 modifiers. --Reklaw 09:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I suppose the PvE equivalent (or something just for fun) would be mixing Forceful Blow with Mighty Blow, Fierce Blow and maybe Body Blow or Power Attack. It's fun seeing all those +42 modifiers. --Reklaw 09:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I forgot this was a skill until a week ago. But to the point I have NEVER seen a build with this skill in it. It has very little effect in it, not to mention the skill detail is wrong (or so I've heard) and it only works for in the area. Should add maybe and gain 5-25 armor. Then Maybe people will remember this is actually a skill. Nice little, "Hey I exist buff" --71.184.113.36 06:08, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill is pretty leet for Iway, in my opinion. Pluto 11:07, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Fall Back! just totally replaces the usefulness this had for a few days a long time ago. It used to work with spirit death, which made it quite awesome, but was also pretty broken. But for retreating, Fall Back! is just better because of the heal AND can also be used to push. The only place this leaves for Retreat! would be for a midfight effect (sure goes with the name!) This -might- be worth bringing somewhere if somehow in a distant future Thumpers and Paragons are mixed. But it could definitely use a buff Patccmoi 13:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah because this is really only a good skill if you are either a thumper but there are still better skills for this effect or if your team is being whiped and you need to run. It just like you said it completely whiped out of existance by the paragon running shouts such as make haste and lead the way kill this skill.
 * This is more a skill for IWAY-like builds, with dead pets around you can use speed boosts to chase foes in battles if they run, this skill is NOT bad... InfestedHydralisk  [[image:Shadow_Prison.jpg|19px]] 01:11, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly. It's like a non-elite version of charge, if you have dead pets lying around. Pluto 02:04, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Why within Earshot? Why not just "If there are dead allies"? 76.64.59.41 06:23, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a Shout. Saph 12:39, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It could really use that change. IWAY's effect is stronger imo... Jaimes Laig Romarto

At 15 Tactics, this skill does only 5 more damage than Soldiers Strike, which does +40, doesnt need a requirement to gain the +damage and has a recharge of 4 seconds, instead of Thrill's 8 seconds. Maybe shortening the recharge down to 4 or 5 seconds, to match other skills. Or add a healing effect, like Victorious Sweep, something like +15..75 hp or something along those lines. I'm sure there's quite a few ways to make this seem more worthwile to use. Right now it just seems to be a lot weaker than Soldiers Strike. Raziel665 13:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Energy attacks on Warriors are terrible. The only way anyone would use this is if the damage was pushed to an imbalanced level, like +60 or so. --TimeToGetIntense 21:51, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd say, make it a Warrior version of Victorious Sweep (thus, re-add the health gain), and it's worth the recharge already. --Kale Ironfist 01:56, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That doesn't make it worth the energy for a Warrior. It doesn't make it worthwhile for any character, really. The Tactics line is not very well geared for damage dealers. --TimeToGetIntense 06:34, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Energy attacks on a Warrior are most certainly NOT terrible. My warrior has an entire skill bar with nothing but energy requiring skills. You just need to make sure to balance energy drain with energy gain, Energy managment has always been a major part of guild wars. And Tactics is well geared for dealing damage, as well as keeping yourself alive. Most Defensive strength skills are not particularly viable in PvP, such as Doylak signet. 90% slower? Just ignore the warrior and move on.--Devvu
 * They're terrible for spikes. is probably what he meant. In PvP, that's pretty much when you use your skills, since at any other time, it's going to be re-buffed by prot and heals. --Kale Ironfist 08:21, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Devvu, you should really watch some GvG on observer mode and see how the Warrior bars are built. They spend most of their energy on Frenzy and Bull's Strike. Frenzy is far more efficient for boosting damage than things like Power Attack or Thrill of Victory. It also allows you to build adrenaline faster and compress your attack skills for a spike. I guess you can use a Zealous Weapon and that would allow the use of more energy attacks, but in that case, Protector's Strike is the only one you should use. It effectively speeds up your attack speed, which means more adrenaline and more damage. Also, it's an extremely fast follow up for a spike. It really outshines other energy based attacks aside from Bull's Strike. Also, I don't want to sound elitist or anything here, but if you argue with this, you're arguing against over two years of experience, not mine, but that of hundreds of top GvG players. --TimeToGetIntense 21:49, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * At first I wasn't really sure to suggest this skill, as I only use it in PvE/RA, knowing that it would be mostly PvP players with good insight suggesting skills here. But I'm glad to see people agree with me that this skill isnt that good. In general, I must say reading a lot of comments here really provide me with more insight into skill use. Raziel665 21:21, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Melee Attack. If this blow hits you strike for +5...29...37 damage. If you have more Health than target foe you gain 1...4...5 energy and 10...30...40 health. --Deathwing 21:28, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Deathwing, I think that would just make Thrill of Victory stronger than the adrenal follow-ups that people use. Warriors don't need more damage. It's not worth it to try and make random skills like this worthwhile if it takes making them stronger than what people already use. --TimeToGetIntense 22:12, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Didn't you say that energy attacks are crap anyway? Edit: And how exactly is lowering the damage giving warriors more damage? --Deathwing 22:28, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, I misread that and thought you suggested a damage bonus for having more health but I was looking at the health bonus. Well, I guess the health thing would make it valuable for split warriors. Gaining back the energy just makes it stronger than an adrenaline attack, though. That's my concern. A free attack is better than an adrenaline attack. --TimeToGetIntense 02:31, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Recharge could be adjusted to make up for it, the energy gain could be lowered some. I added the energy gain in because A) You said energy attacks are crap, and B) The recharge is fairly long anyway. You can probably recharge most of your adrenaline skills in the 8 seconds this takes to recharge. Also, you can't really start off your attacking with this, since they may have more health than you. --Deathwing 02:37, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I say use Deathwing's idea, but lower energy gain to 1...3...4 and raise recharge to 10 secs. Definately makes the skill viable, but also keeps it balanced.--John deathblade 08:50, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Shove -> Crushing -> Thrill makes people explode without adrenaline. 76.64.59.41 06:22, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Shove -> Crushing -> Soldiers Strike. 5 Less damage (at any level), same cost, unblockable when you have a shout on you, half the recharge. Still makes people explode. Now, my PvP is limited to RA and AB, but I'd say all that is better than +5 damage. Raziel665 17:54, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

This is way underpowered. I know it used to be overused in TrapWay, but I think it can be fixed by giving it a max people affect limit. I think that 3 people affected would be good, but also drop the healing amount by some. frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 19:11, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Lol, this is a warrior skill. :P Lord Belar 19:15, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Oops... I'll move it. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 19:16, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I know how to fix this.

Solution A)

Multi-target, either adjacent or nearby, with the following heal and energy gain amounts- Health gain range- 6...42...51 Energy gain range- 2...5...6

Solution B)

Make the skill target nearby enemies but only count unique conditions, providing the current health and energy gain figures. This means that if 2 targets have bleed on them, only 1 condition is counted. 77.96.223.11 19:27, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Nothing is going to fix this skill and pull it out of gimmick builds. I might use this if it were a non-elite.  As it stands, this is just a pathetically unreliable self-heal with a huge recharge.  Oh, and it gives you energy.  Why?  I guess so you can... spam Hamstring?  I mean come on.  What's this elite even supposed to do?  What possible build could you create, on a warrior, that spams energy and enough conditions to make this useful?  The most number of conditions any normal warrior build will apply and still retain some minor degree of utility and damage is about 3, usually 2.  When you drop an elite for this skill, you're losing utility, damage and requiring, at times, more skills to apply conditions.  Pathetic.
 * I really can't think of a fix for this skill without changing its nature. It was a stupid idea to begin with.  The only use for this I can think of is some sort of riposte farming build in PvE.  --Reklaw 21:48, 15 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, RaO was created for gimmicks... no one is gonna use that on a beastmaster with a bow... Bump, want some disc. on this one. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 21:59, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 * ViM is just baed. Warriors don't need a whole lot of energy and there's no reason to take an unreliable and long-recharge heal over, say, Eviscerate. --71.229.204.25 01:54, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
 * By which I mean it was just a poorly-conceived skill and there's no fixing it without making it heinously OP. --71.229.204.25 01:57, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Why not have it give you some adrenaline instead of energy? That would be a start. --TimeToGetIntense 13:53, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Prophecies caused Dazed from Skull Crack, which costs too much adrenaline at 9 for it to be competitive with other warrior elites in NF, and Concussion Shot, which costs 25e. Both skills required an interrupt on a spell in order to Daze to be triggered since it's such a powerful condition, and due to the adren/energy costs, they couldn't be spammed (although you can still spam CShot now if you have some energy elite, of which rangers have plenty). Thumpers hit two buttons to apply daze and BHA rangers hit one. There is essentially no player skill involved in the Factions/NF application of Daze, from either Rangers (Smoke Trap, BHA, Bestial Mauling), Warriors (Headbutt, Quivering Blade + PT), Paragons (Stunning Strike, Awe) or Assassins (Golden Skull Strike, Beguiling Haze, Temple). Skull Crack only dazes for 10s (no Warrior weapon has silencing mod and neither do Scythes... I guess I could go Skull Crack people with daggers but there's many other skills for daggers which do that). Since Skull Crack actually requires more than zero skill, it should have a reduced adrenaline cost of maximum 8 strikes. I think Skull Crack at 6 (or 7) adren would make it fairly powerful and balanced. Since warriors give up their elite slot, they sacrifice a great deal of DPS/Spike for the disruption provided by Skull Crack. In 8v8 the Daze gets removed can get removed fairly quickly and 1/2s interrupts aren't guaranteed against classes with 3/4s or lower cast times. Basically, this skill is rarely used due to it being underpowered and a buff might not only help the skill see more use but give warriors who choose to use it more opportunities to breakthrough the powerful caster defenses that exist. --Miranzor 19:37, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * /signed Saph 16:22, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It would be nice, but this skill was brought up and archieved before, and Izzy said something about it like 'daze isn't something warriors are meant to do and so it's underpowered'. Which makes me doubt a lot anything is gonna change about it! Would be great at around 7 adren i think. If you go too low, i think it becomes too scary when you add stuff like Dark Fury. But 9 is too high.
 * If Daze isn't something Warriors were meant to do (helps to explain the Spell Slasher template, which was pretty wtf), then there's no argument here. End of discussion. Although it is worth mentioning: what's more scary with Dark Fury or Weapon of Fury, Skull Crack spam for low DPS or Backbreaker spam? Wait, I just remembered, if warriors aren't supposed to do Daze is Headbutt like, REALLY that big of a joke? Yes, I actually watched Zidane do his thing so I don't need an explanation of that but I just wanted to judge the level of seriousness that was applied in the design of the skill. Yes, Headbutt is funny: ha ha, but it still exists in the game. If it was just purely thrown in for laughs then EoD.--Miranzor 23:02, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It is not going to happen, but since it is atributeless skill, you can stick in on dervish which can charge it with three hits and then apply to three targets, which is pretty good, Assassin with double strikes is in similar thou weaker position. It simply is not warrior skill. Zweistein
 * If people actually decide to ball up like that, I'm pretty sure they're going to die regardless of what build they face. Plus it's been reviewed that Dervishes rely on an elite to do most of their damage, so if they give one up to use this, they'll get a very serious drop in DPS.--Miranzor 23:02, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, and just like that cause it's something i see brought up all the time when talking about interrupting with Ranger or warrior interrupts, .5s activation on attack skills is still actually .25s before you interrupt (or before the arrow is shot), so it's not really that hard to interrupt a .75s cast (not guaranteed still though). The activation time includes the attack and the 'afterattack', which is half. So .5s activation on attack skills = .25s interrupt on spells. Patccmoi 20:33, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * So you're saying interrupts are actually halfway into the 0.5s animation and they're actually 0.25 speed for melee? Didn't know, but reflex/ping are the majority of the interrupt when it's a question of Power Leak or DShot so it's still not guaranteed. --Miranzor 23:02, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ya, this is true for every attack skills with an activation, so every1 saying that bow interrupts when you're in their face is slower than spell interrupts are wrong (ofc if you're further away flight time add a SMALL increase. Well, big if you use like a Flatbow at max range with no bow speed buff, but that's you being retarded). It also means that skills like Mystic Sweep and Eremite Attacks hit in fact .375s after you activate them. And the 'afterattack' can be negated if you activate a skill with an activation time during it, so if you do say Wearying Strike->Mystic Sweep->Eremite with no IAS, your Wearying will hit .875 seconds after you swing, .375 after Mystic will hit and .375 after Eremite will hit. So in fact the 3 skills hit within 1s of each other. Ofc that's assuming no ping, etc. But it seems a lot of players ignore that fact. I did too before i tried fighting Grenth by dshotting their attack skills and noticed that Mystic Sweep was in fact MUCH harder than a .75s to interrupt. Patccmoi 00:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Attribute this to Strength, give it bonus damage. 00:48, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Just lower to 7 add. Readem   Promote My Ban Here  06:00, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill is fine the way it is. The problem with it is that in 8v8 you need to be able to coordinate your Daze with other shutdown/daze. You can't really depend on Skull Crack that way. Pushing the adrenline cost lower is just dangerous IMO. This skill does have a place; Random Arenas, possibly Team Arenas. --TimeToGetIntense 13:08, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * i think this skill is fine for as it is tbh i use alot in pve atm when im not useing an elte (mostly using dwarf and norn pve skills) if you inturupt a spell eg afflicted monk they are as good as dead with little effort maybe reduceing adrenaline cost by 1 more to make it 8 but this really works fine atm i think.

ashesfalldown Skull Crack - Move to Tactics, Interupts targets skill, if it was a spell target is dazed for 1-10 secs. Reduce to 7 adrenaline. Remove casting time. ashesfalldown 11/16/07

i agree with utc it should be attributed to either strengh or tactics give it bonus damage and lower adrenaline to either 7 or 8

does 15 damage per signet equipped (45 max). ashesfalldown 11/16/07
 * This skill does NOT need a buff. Antiarchangel 03:48, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Correct. It's just a stupid skill.  To get the max damage value, you would have to have absolutely nothing on your bar except signets and this skill.  And what kind of build would that be?  Some sort of Me/W build?  I mean honestly.  There wasn't very much thought put into this one. --Reklaw 09:38, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a fine skill, there just no good signets for a Warrior. --TimeToGetIntense 14:53, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You mean other than healing signet? - [[Image:User HeWhoIsPale sig.PNG]] HeWhoIsPale 15:05, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure he means in general. Healing Signet is about it.  Signet of Strength is nearly worthless, Signet of Stamina isn't good for much of anything, Dolyak Signet is just a laugh... et cetera, so on.--Reklaw 16:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * W/A Signet Of Malice Ajax Baby Eater 19:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I've always wondered why this had (maximum 70 damage)....Unless someone has 9 signets + this skill or something, I don't really see the need for the maximum damage. --Deathwing 19:22, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem with a skill like this is that people try to maximise it, fail because they are forced into a crappy build, and then complain at it for sucking. A warrior in random arenas is probably going to tote a resurrection signet and a healing signet, so adding one more signet after that (there's enough from various professions to help you there) to give it a nice +30 damage which, for a 4 adrenaline skill, isn't bad on the grand scheme of things (It's like a non-elite cleave then), true it isn't going to win you battles all on its own, particularly as most warriors are so concerned with bar compression to even think of taking a +damage only skill, but it isn't a steaming pile of arse like most think it is. --Ckal Ktak 23:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

This is a REALLY good skill. Dolyak Signet + Signet of Malice + Healing Signet + Ressurection Signet = 40 damage for 4 adrenalin. That ALOT better than Executioner's Strike. Done25 23:46, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Did you just suggest using Dolyak Signet? --Deathwing 23:51, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I play PvE. But even without it 30 damage for 4 Adren is nasty. Done25 23:53, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

You can't use this well with Signet of Malice because you won't have room on your bar for the actual condition skills. Signet of Malice is very poor if your only condition is Deep Wound. Symbolic Strike is only viable on Axe because you need to compress your bar as much as possible to fit 3 signets and still have a good build, so you cannot afford to use two skills for your Deep Wound, which Sword and Hammer have to do.

Finding a 3rd signet aside from Healing Signet and Res Sig is difficult. The best option is probably Signet of Judgement. It's ranged, can sustain more knockdowns over time than Shock in the very long run, but it lacks the flexibility of Shock. In skilled hands, Shock is probably better. Also, this build doesn't have room for an interrupt which a flagstand Warrior should have rather than a Healing Signet, and Healing Signet is not very good in GvG anymore due to how splits work out these days.

Symbolic Strike isn't bad in RA but it limits your build too much in GvG and in the end, it's not anything special, it's just an adrenaline attack. It wouldn't change the game much if effort was taken to make this skill better. If some signets got buffed so Warriors would want to use them, you could use those signets with or without Symbolic Strike and make a good build. But Symbolic Strike itself is not particularly interesting. --TimeToGetIntense 01:06, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * One thing that's interesting about this skill is that it actually goes out of its way to encourage people to invent stupid builds. You don't see that very often.  In my opinion, this skill should not encourage people to put that many signets on their bar.  It's a warrior skill, after all.  This isn't a mesmer we're talking about.  I know Izzy, or whomever, wanted signets to take off after Nightfall, but that just isn't going to happen, outside of the fast-cast Me/Mo build, which isn't that successful.  It's not happenin', guy.  The skill should not encourage people to equip any more than 4 signets.  Three is preferable.  How about this:  If this attack hits, you deal +5 damage for each Signet you have equipped, +5 damage for each Signet that is not recharging, and +10 damage for each Signet you are recharging (maximum 70 damage).  If you have three signets, all recharging, that's 45 damage.   Even if they're available, that's +30 damage.  If you have four, all recharging (slightly unlikely, plus if you have that many signets you're probably using a horrible build), that's 60 damage.  If you encounter a warrior that is running around with 5 signets, meaning if he has all of them recharging, he can dish out +70 damage every time he uses this skill.  But who cares?  Warriors with 5 signets on their bar aren't good warriors anyway.  If this skill is buffed in this way, it might be necessary to lower the max damage to something like 50.
 * I think this would be an okay skill to use to replace certain other skills, like Mighty Blow or Power Attack, in the right build. It's not as though warriors can split their attack attributes, so an unlinked damage accessory skill isn't that important on a warrior, unless it can be utilized correctly.  Damage skills aren't that important on PvP warriors anyway, beyond a basic skill spike.  If you use the Evis warrior as an example, you'll find probably one attack skill other than Eviscerate, and that's Executioner's.  Every attack line has a skill like this.  Buffing Symbolic to compete with those skills, on a bar that uses 3 or more signets, will NOT be a threat or a problem. --Reklaw 00:29, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
 * At the end of the day, this is just another pure damage adrenaline skill. For it to be viable, there need to be a few viable signets first, which there aren't. In the case that there are, you don't need this skill to justify the signets, so who cares? --TimeToGetIntense 13:50, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Realistically, the only skillbar I can see this being used on is a Tactics warrior with Healing Sig, Resurrection Sig, and a Ranger secondary using Antidote Sig, rather than the standard (and much better) /Mo with Mending Touch. That's three signets without things being too ludicrous, just to get some use out of Symbolic.  If Signet of Strength wasn't so worthless, things might be a little different. --Reklaw 21:25, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * How about Remedy Signet? That is somewhat useful to a warrior and might be a more energy efficient version of Mending Touch. Nicky Silverstar 11:05, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Mending Touch and Remedy Signet are not optimal on a Warrior. A slightly better pure damage attack skill doesn't justify using non-optimal skills. --TimeToGetIntense 02:38, 27 December 2007 (UTC)