User talk:Auron/GuildWarsSucksSoMuch/Title "balance"

I liked the update, actually. I'm happy the Summoning Stones are weak - otherwise they would just become new consumables and become a requirement for joining PUGs. Right now, they only give a very small advantage (since they don't take a party slot) and have a slightly "cool" factor for those who like the enemies summoned by the stones.

I also disagree with your view on the Nightfall titles - IMO it isn't a matter of making people to wurm farm in less time, rather a matter of giving people a chance of earning the titles by simply playing the game. Under the objective of giving more options, as opposed to making the titles easier to get, I think the update in Sunspear and Lightbringer was a success, especially regarding the later - now, by playing the entire game without grinding, a (new) character would end with a considerable rank in both titles, enough to use the PvE skills effectively.

The two problems, rather big ones, IMO, are... I think it's too late to change the second problem, but the first has to be changed, I think. Erasculio 15:27, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) The books aren't retroactive. I was told Regina made a post in GWG claiming this was done in order to preserve the economy, but that's a very bad reason to do anything in this game.
 * 2) Using the Luxon faction takes away the Kurzick faction and the other way around. In common play this is easily avoided with a minimum of planning - get Luxon faction, spend it, then get Kurzick faction and spend it. Being given both kinds of faction together, as we were, there's no way to avoid wasting large parts of it.
 * Auron won't acknowledge your response because you mentioned increased PvE skill effectiveness. [[Image:UserDrago-sig.gif]]   Drago  15:35, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * "Increased" effectiveness? Nope, I didn't mention that : P Higher ranks in the titles allowing players to use the more powerful versions of the PvE only skills is a good thing - not because the PvE only skills are good for the game ("There's Nothing to Fear!" is overpowered at rank 1), but rather because they are the only aspect of the titles that change gameplay. If someone wants to grind for months in order to get a green text at the feet of his character saying "Look at me, I have grinded all this time!", IMO let he do it as much as he wants. But when that grind gives real advantages, like making skills more powerful, then there's a problem. This update helped all players achieve more or less the same conditions, without a divide between more powerful grinders and less powerful players who just play through the game; and for that I believe the update improves the game, despite how many of the PvE only skills are incredibly broken. Erasculio 16:23, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with both of your points, and I had originally intended to include the faction debacle in my writeup but it was forgotten (3 AM rants ftl). I disagree, however, with keeping weak summons - they cost quite a lot. 1k, a skill point, an assload of (sometimes expensive) materials... all for a warrior without good attack skills? The juggernaut/siege turtle look like the best bets, but they're about the most expensive, so... I dunno. Seems like a waste. They'd probably still be balanced if each person could have one out simultaneously, since they're just about as lame as an animal companion.
 * I also disagree with your assessment of my assessment (lol) of the nightfall titles. For sunspear, points are hard to come by, and sooner or later you have to grind the shit out of it to get r9/10 (most of my characters end the game at r6/7, which is still kinda meh when considering skill power). My characters usually ended around lightbringer 3 or 4, and quickly got 6/7 with a minimal amount of DoA (not farming in particular, just clearing it with SMS got lots of points). However, the lightbringer track doesn't have any good skills tied to it (nothing like the sunspear's TNTF, cry of pain, seed of life, necrosis, etc), so that track being rewarded with minimal grind doesn't say much. Remember, groups don't recruit like "lf ele with 'effective' pve skills," they just say "lf lb8 ele" or "forming r10 ursanway."
 * Anet should bring the total cap down on the titles that have skills for exactly the reason you stated - the game shouldn't be grind over skill, ever, period. If someone wants to grind skill hunter or cartographer, go ahead, because I'm still a better player than them in the end - however, when their 50 hours of grind makes their skills more powerful than mine... nah, not okay. - Auron 11:00, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed on Snaring Web. If only hex removal wasn't terrible. &mdash;  Skakid  00:53, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * @Auron: They fixed that a while back, remember? The difference between R1 and R10 was made significantly smaller, and the difference betwee rank 8 (which is usually easy to get) and rank 10, is negliable. If you're good (and you are) then your skill will easily cover the gap. 87.210.150.58 19:11, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Except someone who grinds with equal skill will always be better than me, which goes against the founding belief of Guild Wars. PvP grinding got you champ points, hero points etc but it didn't technically make you better - PvE grinding directly impacts the power of your skills.
 * You claim the difference between r8 and r10 is negligible, but why does it exist at all? Why do you have to grind for skill power? And why would you ever have to grind a hundred and sixty fucking thousand points to max a title? That's ridiculous. 50000 was quite enough :/ -[[Image:User Auron csig.png]] Auron  03:43, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * But that is exactly my point: you only have grind for vanity reasons, because it does not make you more effective in practice (even in theory the difference is slim). There is nothing in the game you can't do with rank 7 but can do with 10. It's the same with PvP rank: it doesn't make you better. Some people believe it does (why else do people ask for r10+ in HA?) but in practice, most r8's are just as good and you won't notice any difference while playing. 145.94.74.23 07:43, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe you didn't get it. PvE. Grind. Should. Not. Make. Skills. More. Powerful. Ever. Even WoW doesn't have stupid shit like that, and they have PvE grind that makes everything else more powerful. - Auron 04:18, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Ahem
If you don't like the game, don't play it. Find another game to complain about kthxbai -- Shadowphoenix  15:50, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem is, there is no other good MMO. Yet. -=-Koda Kumi 16:03, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That logic is so ridiculously terrible I won't even waste my time writing a proper response to it. - Auron 13:32, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It is not logic. It is a statement expressing my love for Chronicles of Spellborn :P -=-Koda Kumi 20:12, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Which means he couldn't come up with a comeback, gg -- Shadowphoenix  [[Image:User Shadowphoenix Necromancer.png|19x19px| Happy Halloween ]] 20:30, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, you're just trolling. For a minute I thought you were serious, but then I realized nobody would mistake your original post for logic. Whew. - Auron 10:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Auron alrdy covered this, & I'm a bit late, but still wanted to add my $0.02: saying "don't play the game" because of discontent due to gradual, ridiculous changes to core mechanics or attempts at "balance", over the multi-year lifespan of a game already bought & paid for, is flat-out ridiculous.  ("Hey! I know you just spent $50 on the game, but don't play it!!1  Find another one!1")  At the time of this update, I just finished Proph NM, all mish & bonuses on my fresh-from-Pre LDoA warrior, literally 2 or 3 days before this update, yet the books aren't retroactive?  Players aren't supposed to be pissed at shit like that?  The title "balances" & everything else in this update is comparable.  It's not a matter of liking or not liking the game & therefore playing or not playing, it's a matter of ANet making silly, illogical decisions & causing fans who have given them money for a product some level of justifiable dissatisfaction. -  i n s i d i o u s 420  18:33, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Zing. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]] 3:22, 19 Jul 2010 (UTC)

HFFF
"while tracks that were decently okay (lux/kurz) were overhauled" Are you trying to suggest that Hfff'ing was 'decently okay?' It was a lame neurotic way of gaining faction that, just so happened, to be much faster than any 'normal' method. This update brings CMs, ABs and actual 'playing of the game' closer to being viable ways of gaining faction. If you're looking for a new FFF, try Amatz Basin--210.9.142.28 12:28, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "Speaking of repeatable, great job on killing FFF, ANet. I'm glad everyone will like putting up with your terrible fucking design you call Hard Mode because they now have to vanquish instead of micro heroes a billion times for a pittance of faction. Thanks for addressing grind, ANet, you guys are right on! <3 " --[[Image: User_Ezekial_Riddle_sig.jpg|Talk]] Riddle 13:06, 3 December 2008 (UTC).

I don't understand
...what else do you want them to do? What else can they possibly change without just giving the titles to anyone who logged in GW once in his life? They did reduce the grind. How? Simple. You can get the title in a few different ways now, instead of just 1 (a.ka. the fastest way) without reducing the value of those titles to the people that already have them. Step outside your own point of view for a second, and consider this: what would have been te most acceptable solution to most players, including those that have the title, want the title, those that finished campaigns but enjoy playing them again, those that actually enjoy grinding, etc. and tell me that you have a more acceptable solution. 87.210.150.58 19:00, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Defenition of grind: "A term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game" so now you can vanquish different areas, play alternatives to AB (FA and JQ) or play missions to fill out tomes. How is that more boring than HFFF? All the previous ways to gain points have been changed to give more points, and new ways have been added. Why is that so bad? How would you have fixed it? 87.210.150.58 19:07, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * What about luxons? They can't FA, they lose every fucking time. They also do terribly in JQ, from my experience - the map is decently balanced but the turtles bug quite often and I've only seen luxons win that once in my life (and I've played it more than 20 times... 1:20 win ratio isn't very good :/). That leaves vanquishing, which is lolstupid since ANet failed at Hard Mode design. Why didn't they leave in HFFF? If they were intent on giving players options, don't you think they would have left options in instead of removing them? :/ -[[Image:User Auron csig.png]] Auron  03:38, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I only played both arenas 10 times, and I won 5 times in JQ and 4 times in FA (Luxon) so it depends on your team more than anything. I like vanquishing, and I like to do Challenge Missions. But I find HFFF really odd, becaue all you have to do is flag your heroes somewhere, and you get free faction. How is clicking on a map 4 times not grinding? 145.94.74.23 07:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * They removed HFFF because of bots. Alea 17:29, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh damn, whatever will we do about bots grinding faction! If the problem was money, they could have A. removed the money reward entirely but kept the faction reward, B. tweaked the quest a bit so if you do it more often than once an hour the money reward becomes pitiful after the first time, C. not failed at banning bot accounts by having game masters like every other MMO ever. There were plenty of options available to them, some were even easy. For them to remove it entirely shows massive incompetence - an inability to gather information about the problem, inability to fix the actual problem (botting), and when all else fails, an inability to fix this specific quest in such a way that it doesn't impact their actual players. They can spew bullshit like "we want to keep farming viable for players but not for bots," but anyone who looks at what they do instead of what they say will find that to be a blatant lie. - Auron 04:17, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

lolnet
"For anyone trying to get gwamm on multiple chars, they're going to need to spend tens of millions. Are you really okay with that, ANet? Do you think that maybe stupidass title tracks like that are incentive for people to ebay gold?" Auron wins. Again. 68.189.248.104 10:18, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * And who ever came up with the idea that this sort of thing should be possible? 145.94.74.23 08:03, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Vanquishing
Actually, i feel that adding a points bonus to vanquishing really helps. HM is actually, you know, hard. nublits can not just whiz through hm like they can nm... this turns pve hard, and gives PvE people something to do that shows their skill. And if you have spearmarshell, by the time you are halfway done with Kourna, you have gotten Legendary. Kurzick and Luxon now have ways to increase their faction caps, and you can get 20k an hour by vanquishing if you are halfway good at pve. i really enjoyed this update. And it also gave us JQ. The largest work in progress I have ever seen. 99.141.216.176 23:35, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah ? consumables and pve-skills are no longer available in hm ? Yseron - 81.251.150.117 23:49, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Cause people have been playing jq for fun for the past 3 years before the update. Thanks for giving us back jq through incentive instead of updating it to make it more balanced--Relyk 19:16, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I know its a long while ago but as time probably telled this update helped. I hadn't played JQ once before this update. Not that i didn't want to but because after waiting an half hour i still didn't entered. After this update the amount of people who played jq soared. FA rose to but not much. They had to wait till the Zaishen quests. So i can say this update whas quite the succes. Rhonin Soren 10:46, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No, Relyk was right. People don't play JQ because it's fun, they queue for it because it's more faction per hour to suicide bomb random outposts than it is to play FA and because the faction titles require an absolutely ridiculous amount of faction. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 12:55, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I disagree. many people i know play JQ for fun. Back when I was still in a faction farming guild and DTSC was stil able in 12 minutes many of my guild still played JQ and FA. and i can tell you that getting faction from DTSC is a lot faster. Besides Auron's rant made it sound like upping the rewards was a bad thing. Yes the titles require a ridiculous amount of faction. True. Now look at hero(500 hours of halls), now back at Gladiator(2016 succesive victories), now back at Commander(50.000 ranked battles). So these titles arn't grind? They arn't hard to get? Well so isn't luxon/kurzick. live with it. I calculated it. its 833 times DTSC. before the 600 nerf that was (at 15min a game wich is much average is 12) is 208 hours. that's less than half of halls. I know hero is much more pristine. But to me it's just a title wich say's "I have willingly wasted at least 500hours of my life at halls" wich is fine to me. Compared to kurzick/luxon you had to do more work. you even had to download the bots for your mesmer-hero. because in the end all titles are grind. The update reduced the grind for some of the titles. They put titles in to those who wanted to do something more after you finished the game. The real mistake they made is adding PvE skills tied to those titles. The HOM was a logical follow-up for the titles (a place to see them all) but then they made there second mistake. tying the HOM to GW2. Now those who grinded a lot get rewards in GW2 and thats what they did wrong. They (kinda)obligated titles to have a advantage at GW2. Rhonin Soren 14:06, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The article was pointing out how stupid it was to remove viable methods of faction gain. It's alright that they added vanquishing, but they shouldn't have removed the repeatable quest. Also, PvP should be equally viable for raising faction. Either way, the crux of the issue is grind. The titles should not require millions of kurzick faction. It's a cheap cop-out to making actual content. - Auron 14:18, 31 December 2010 (UTC)