ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Warrior/Backbreaker

Discussion
Discuss. Prokiller88 22:51, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * lol fail. Backbreaker assassins are lolfail. Changing a perfectly balanced, skill requiring elite to fight a silly gimmick is even more lolfail. Owait, did I mention BB assassins /fail? Just get a warder with WoS, quit whining. Or, get Aura Of Stability on a midline. Lolfail suggestion, tbh. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  15:07, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * BB Assassin's don't really function outside of RA or HB. In GvG and HA, too much block/blind/other hinderences for BB to connect reliably.  In TA, knockdowns are common, so good teams also take AoS on a midliner and some kind of stance on the monk (Disciplined or Balanced).  In AB, they have no self heal, so killing them is no problem.    In CM...CM is like RA, only you don't need a rez.  You self-rez in 6 seconds so anything at all works there.  76.89.81.150 00:03, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Gtfo man. Nerfing a fine skill just because of BB sins? Fail! Dark Morphon  (contribs)  09:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

wow bb on a sin, haven't thought about that....mmmmmm, don't know, even with the four secs you still have to switch between hammer to daggers, and that takes up to a sec or 2, even then i don't see a very good use for this. i'll stick to it having it on my warriors for now, --Metal Sazz 17:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it takes no time at all. It is called the esc key. Pls, know the build before commenting on it. When you talk about something you are, in effect, ignorant, you clog up the disscussion. Here is a link. http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:A/W_Backbreaker_Sin -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  13:51, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

well excuse me for my input jeez, since when does someone opinion get flamed like that.....oh wait this is the internet, excuse me again, :P--Metal Sazz 01:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The bb assassin build, granted is not that powerful soloing a WoR runner but combined with another assassin because all sin splits are with 2 sins, it will kill the runner because its a 4 second knockdown and you have 2 assassins on you. Prokiller88 12:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, so guilds use bb sins in gvg? I must obs moar, I guess. I had hoped no guild would run a bad gimmick like that, but eh. And metal, that wasn't flaming. Flaming would not have involved the link. (Or it would've been a link to a rickroll) -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  11:28, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Backbreaker requires charging. It can't be used for ganking runners for that reason and therefore not effective in gvg.  But you can't expect the same in other places.  Despite with all the buttons to press and the difficulty on performing the combo, it's really quite deadly.  Lightblade 05:04, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

When you talk about something you are, in effect, ignorant, you clog up the disscussion mmmm know you what, im tired, and don't want to start anything over something dumb like this :p--Metal Sazz 19:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * He said you were ignorant, which means you just don't know. He didn't call you stupid, a noob, idiot, etc. and gave you a link so you can educate yourself to how the build works so you may comment accurately.  I don't classify that as flaming.  If anything, he helped you learn the wonder that is the Esc key.  --Rururrur 10:11, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

That second suggest solves all "problems", but are there really any problems? I don't think BB sin is that OP tbh. Dark Morphon  (contribs)  16:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Err.. one guardian can block this skill and it takes forever to gain the addrenline back even for an assassin.William Wallace 09:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I prepose we nerf axe sins. They are simply too strong...too brave. -- Readem 15:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

This is why monks run shiled bash. Now with shadowsteps nerfed these spikes are easy to be caught and there is no point in nerfing this skill.84.196.72.19 18:53, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * And it's so easy to shut down, with a simple hex, blind or anything. Til you add 4 smiters to the mix keeping it clean as a whistle with rigor then you start to wonder...74.229.66.241 16:18, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Candidate for deletion
Someone has nominated this page as a candidate for deletion. Personally I disagree with this because the issue is not nonexistant (and anyway the people who posted the issues obviously don't think so, so you can't just delete a page because you don't agree with them) - Backbreaker sins are a nuisance. True, they can be countered, but try playing hero battles with a hero monk and they are a real pain. Whether or not it's a big enough deal to nerf the skill is the point of the suggestion and the discussion in the first place, so until Izzy says it's not gonna get nerfed, I disagree with deleting it (and in any case it should probably be archived, not deleted). --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:86.27.136.194 (talk).
 * It does not matter if people think there is an issue. What matters is if there is an issue. The above disscussion pretty much sums up why this page is unnecessary. If there is a general consensus on removing the delete tag, fine, but the way I see it, the consensus is at the extreme opposite of that. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  10:12, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think the point above is more one person can't delete it without consensus or something. Anyway, this skill is very annoying on sins in HB and in fact Izzy himself has said he would like to tweak it. However, whether the problem is with Backbreaker itself or other parts of the bar is hard to say. I'm in favour of Frvwfr2's suggestion.
 * You have a lot of support (above) in favour of deletion, tbh. -- NUKLEAR  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] IIV  15:47, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Out of curiosity
What are your balance issue priorities? The small nerf to IA was a good start, but then to follow it up with a double nerf to backbreaker? The "Assassin" build you mention suffers the same down sides as any other melee class and is hardly considered a balance issue(Being that It was the only assassin build that wasn't simply just 1 2 3 4 5 6) Even if it was powerful, what made you put that over say blood spike? or kappa spike? or fixing the life stealing damage system? Hell wounding strike has been screaming for a nerf since you buffed it, That was an even greater balance issue than Incendiary arrows for god sake. Honestly, It seems like you base what you fix based off what you fight in RA. --99.153.226.11 18:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Backbreaker sins weren't 123456? Umm...yes they were. BB, falling, falling, twisting, offhand, blades of steel.  ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 18:38, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Shard, it was/is actually 1,esc f1, f2, 2,3,4,5,6 prokiller88 01:29, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, so having to press a function key means it's a skillful build now? BB is just as button-mashy as other sin builds once you get the weapon switching.
 * most assa builds are 1,2,3,4,5,6 due to their attack-skill system, tbh. --Cancer Angel [[Image:User Cursed Angel Signature.jpg|19px|y so srs?]] 18:08, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * they used to be l-o-d-utilitystuff Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Eviscerate.jpg|19x19px]] *poke*  19:16, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

No balance issues. I don't see why that's so hard to get. -- Brains12 \ talk 22:08, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I think most people can't grasp the concept that you can't talk to the game balancer about game balance. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 22:20, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * ^what he said the thing is that izzy doesnt give enough reply to his skill feedback page (I'm not saying hes lazy or its because of gw II I'm just stating a fact that he hasnt replied a lot on his feedback page) so people often see this as the way to get to him.Just desperate and hoping they might get to his brain cells Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Eviscerate.jpg|19x19px]] *poke*  07:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It might be the fact that talking about balance naturally progresses from a perfectly reasonable question about Izzy's balance priorities (which BTW I am also interested in). Admittedly, the discussion's digressing a bit, but it is kinda relevant - after all, does Izzy consider issues with assassin builds to be of a higher priority than those with, say, scythe rangers?

Sins are 1234567 okey, but theyre squishy and die in 3 hits, and BB sin wasn't THAT easy to pull off and had plenty of counters.. It was a stupid nerf, which i hope izzy undo's78.20.153.111 19:59, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Backbreaker is a prime example of how a perfectly balanced skill becomes broken because of secondary professions. This change didn't affect hammer warriors at all, so why was it a stupid nerf?  Because you have no way to win anymore?  ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 21:22, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

It was a stupid nerf because these sins can still reach the 4 sec knockdown Lilondra   *poke*  16:26, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, they can still reach the 4 sec knockdown, but now they have to invest attribute points. Sounds balanced to me. --JonTheMon 16:30, 13 October 2008 (UTC)


 * They're still just as effective as before. Also, you don't actually need a 3s kd to get the combo off. The nerf did absolutely nothing to them. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 14:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The extra second is still valueable. The nerf might not have killed them but it hurt a bit. Plus, it actually helped "proper" warriors, so all in all it was, I reckon, a good change (maybe not enought, but still). --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:82.3.255.222 (talk).

to shard: Lol'd, you phail.. i played BB sin like 3-4 times.. and are you suggesting that they should remove 2ndary professions?? The nerf was stupid, cuz 90% of the people playing BBsin couldn't pull of the entire chain while opponent was KD'd, if izzy really would hate sins he woulda done 4 sec breakpoint at 13 Hammer.. This is a useless nerf, since BB sins do their chain just as good as before, only thing that they can't do good now is auto-attack for damage(lol)78.20.153.111 16:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


 * You're bad. Moving the 4s breakpoint to 13 would require a significant amount of coding that ANet's not willing to do, unless they were to make the duration 5s at 15 (which would be retarded in so many ways). It still wouldn't affect BB sins, though, you're right on that. (And yeah, secondary professions should be axed pretty hard.) -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 23:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * People keep telling me i phail. Then they keep making more spelling and logic errors.  ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 00:18, 18 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It's funny because it's true. :/ -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 00:19, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it is said that when a multi weapon build finally shows up, it is so overpowered that it needs a nerf. Would have been fun, if you could combine weapons effectively without being either over or underpowered, but I suppose it's for the best that it's not possible. 145.94.74.23 05:56, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Armond's discussion
Because no one decided to do the math earlier. -- Armond Warblade 21:37, 18 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Lets see. Before it was bb at +5 damage with small hammer damage. Falling lotus is +34, Twisting is +19x2, Falling Spider is +34, Blades is +60x2. That alone is 331(with deep wound) without damage from daggers + hammer or crits. Now its +16 with bb with high hammer damage. Both falling is +32x2, Blades is +60x2, Twisting is at +15x2. Thats 330(with deep wound) without damage from weapons or crits. prokiller88 21:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * | --Jette 23:06, 21 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Uh, what? BB sins ran at least 9 hammers before the nerf. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 00:06, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I took it from wiki. If you have a different build, post the attribute setup. prokiller88 01:57, 23 October 2008 (UTC)


 * 12-9-9 daggers-crits-hammers. The breakpoint for crits is 8, the +damage from twisting is bad anyway, and the deep wound comes with no spec. The entire rest of the build is based around daggers. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 04:01, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * And the wiki one had ten hammer before the nerf. :/ --71.229.253.172 04:10, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Before the nerf, it didn't require any hammer mastery.
 * Hmm ok. +12 damage from backbreaker, +34 from lotus, +16x2 from twisting, +34 for spider, +60x2 from BoS. So its 332 damage with no weapon damage or crits. prokiller88 23:35, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Prenerf didn't it have a fail chance? Either way, you definitely had the spare att points to meet the req (and now with 12 hammarz you can do ~70 a whack with the bonus damage... at least, that's what I saw on obs). -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 04:34, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Lilondra's issue

 * Gust is not a problem as it kind of sucks. Earthbind might be, though.  It kind of sucks too but turning every knockdown into a backbreaker would make it not suck, or at least suck significantly less. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Jette (talk).