Talk:Game updates/20080206

Droks runs took a big nerf to the mediocre runners with the cap at 3 enchantments.  Calor  (t) 20:03, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yay, kill sinsplit more imo. Lord of all tyria 20:05, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

wow
You are actually retarded... Why the hell do u encourage splitgay? O whatever, ive stopped caring about GW1, just living until GW2 24.141.45.72 20:08, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I herd namecalling makes people listen to you and take you seriously. --fraught · (talk) 20:10, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * yai, so they kill you just an archer and youre pretty much fucked up?--[[Image:User_rayd_sig.png]]‎ Rayd 20:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * i herd you should use brain when changing the game. gogo japs, more gold trims for joo.--62.240.177.40 20:36, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * [up for another [Me] MaT?? 24.141.45.72 01:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Necros
Interesting move there, changing some of the Necromancer skills to 1 energy... YuGiOh 20:09, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

so you get positive energy from masochism gg Dont 20:10, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * the energy cost was never really an issue. it's the sacrifice cost that unattractive as long as you sacrifice maximum health instead of current health. - jayce 64.253.5.164 20:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * (Edit conflict x2) Compare for example Dark Pact with a not so good skill such as Flare and say that 1 energy cost is imbalanced. &mdash; Galil [[Image:User Galil sig.png|Talk page]] 20:30, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * OoB seems...Fair? Gothica 20:43, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It actually seems like it's viable for use again. &mdash; Galil [[Image:User Galil sig.png|Talk page]] 20:48, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Time to go Mo/N and use Vamp Gaze for spike assistance. --74.61.209.219 21:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * ALL HAIL THE BLOOD MAGICIAN. It was about time these guys were bought into serious PvP. --Ckal Ktak 09:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Lol indirect buff to Touch Rangers. -- Hawk Skeer  (Talk) 19:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I love it when they do that hawk. :) --Lou-Saydus[[Image:User_Lou-Saydus_Sig_Image.png|How dare you put that damned dirty thing on me!|19px]] 17:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Troll Unguent
Wow. --fraught · (talk) 20:10, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You can now have it up permanently, if you think its worth taking the time to activate to it ~  SCobra [[Image:User-SuperCobra-Sig.png]] 22:38, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Heal Party
Seems like the documented changes are wrong, looks more like 30...66 Nevermind, it's: 30...66...75 Josestefan 20:29, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Mesmers : (
FUCK U ARENA NET FUCK U SO FUCKING MUCH --Cursed Angel  20:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * CAPS LOCK IS THE CRUSE CONTROL FOR COOL! --Raikage 20:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL ~ aka you failed --[[Image:User_rayd_sig.png]]‎ Rayd 20:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Cursed Angel, your life must be miserable.  [[Image:User_Riven_sigicon.png]]    20:41, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Power Leak was such a good skill :(, now it's pretty meh , clumsiness is now only usefull in PvE with MoR. WTB buff--189.70.128.206 20:54, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Power Leak really is overpowered and needed a nerf, but this is too much. Lightblade 21:23, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * QQ moar -- Tr33zon ಠ_ಠ [[Image:User_Tr33zon_Signature0.gif]] (Talk - Contribs) 21:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

LOL ?? WHO THE FUCK IS SUPPOSED TO LOSE ENERGY ON POWER LEAK, THE CASTER OR THE FOE ?????? 10e CAST FOR MAX 5e LOSS ON TARGET WTF??????????? ISNT INTERRUPTING CONDITIONAL ENOUTH TO JUSTIFY THE 20energy BURN ?
 * (moar edit conflicts plx)They lose the energy required to start casting and additional energy when interrupted.--74.61.209.219 21:51, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * They should rebalance it to 5-10 or something like that, heavy nerf... --[[Image:User_rayd_sig.png]]‎ Rayd 22:03, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * /agree --74.61.209.219 22:07, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow Anet fails at game balance.--87.194.98.16 23:19, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I bet you can do way better. Besides Power Leak and Clumsiness, I thought this was quite a nice balance. Yay for Ava of Grenth, really interesting. VoD changes, the comments make me lulz. First everyone was bitching over how people hated that VoD builds were dominating, then VoD gets adjusted in a way that you want to avoid it and people still bitch. Tbh, that's the thing about the vocal minority (pun intended) of GW. They'll always find something to bitch about. Glad I went to another game and only do daily GvG for an hr or too now. Keep it up Anet, much love and respect for a game which I spent 4,5k hrs on. Including having a PvE Mesmer with People Know Me and fancy armor, PvP rdy, etc etc. Time and money well spend imo. BlazeRick 23:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * BTW, GW is by far one of the most balanced PvP games out there. If not, the best. It's not perfect, but way above other standards. BlazeRick 00:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I've still got a lot of complaints, tbh. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 00:51, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That's not saying much. --71.229.204.25 00:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Why would you want to avoid vod now? just turtle and use a dual sin gank team to kill one npc on the other team and gg --Lou-Saydus[[Image:User_Lou-Saydus_Sig_Image.png|How dare you put that damned dirty thing on me!|19px]] 17:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Bad Changes
Title says it all
 * These are actually good, mostly. Need to see how buffing LoD turns out though. Lord of all tyria 20:43, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I fail to see how cutting it's healing over time by almost half counts as a buff. The hero changes were needed and are greatly appreciated though.  --Valshia 20:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * In pvp, LoDs healing over time just increased a considerable amount. 2 second casts=interupt fodder. Lord of all tyria 20:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Mystic Regen
Mystic Regen nerf gets rid of degen protection for a lot of builds, don't see why exactly it was nerfed in that way... If it was the issue on eles using it, then should have moved to Mysticism. --Link4all 20:49, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol? If you're stacking more than 3 enchantments on yourself just to power Mystic Regen, your build sucks to begin with. Nuff said.  [[Image:User_Riven_sigicon.png]]    20:52, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * When you have survivability as a tank and 4 people (especially degen) can't take you down even when you don't have the support of a monk, your build is doing what it's supposed to. The enchantments powering it are an added bonus anyway. --Link4all 20:56, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed with Op, Fuck you Arenanet.
 * "When you have survivability as a tank and 4 people (especially degen) can't take you down even when you don't have the support of a monk". Read that again. Now read it again. And again. Are you starting to understand the change now?  [[Image:User_Riven_sigicon.png]]    21:04, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No, because, like you said, you have to build your build around it. 4 people still can take you down, just not through degen. (aka mesmers, necros, burning, poison, etc where a lot of damage comes from) The main issue was with other profs anyway. (Aka earth ele tanks) --Link4all 21:07, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Tank moar kk? Randomperson 21:08, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

QQ -- Tr33zon ಠ_ಠ (Talk - Contribs) 21:32, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Heres a solution use it with Healing breeze,not a primary monk or dervish? then this skill shouldn't be relied on.(Marsc 21:36, 6 February 2008 (UTC))
 * MENDING + MYSTIC REGEN KID ? <3

About time it got nerfed...dang it. If your build was around enchantments, then this was the solution against degen AND conditions, both at the same time in one skill, not even Contemplation of Purity is this powerful.--ShadowFog 00:04, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

55 Monks just fucking nailed. 03:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)~
 * 55's can use Healing Breeze. And +9 health regen is plenty enough for them. -- Hawk Skeer [[Image:User_Hawk_Skeer_Assassin.png|Assassin Symbol]] (Talk) 00:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It's like some people have forgotten that 55 monks actually existed before dervishes came along.... -- Hong 00:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Fuck you Anet every orginal Dev build i have made is in the shitter. Izzy go and suck a dick you faggot.


 * Can I just say. . .wow? Huh? Is it really that bad of a nerf? It's still a totally viable skill. Works fine for running (anyone using more than two other enchants at the same time should be ashamed of themselves. I use feigned. Feigned pwns regen for running. :D). As for you earth eles, you normally had, what? This, Stoneflesh, Stone Striker, Earth Attune. Ok, a 9 vs. 12, I can see the complaint, but it's still a great skill at a 20 duration and 1/4th cast. I might go for Healing Breeze now as an ele though. ;)--Foolsauce  [[Image:Foolsauce-sig.gif]] 13:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


 * They nerfed my farming build :( now i cant kill exuro in 30 seconds.... --Lou-Saydus[[Image:User_Lou-Saydus_Sig_Image.png|How dare you put that damned dirty thing on me!|19px]] 17:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

poor avatar of grenth....
without the enchant removal hes kinda useless now lol.....no one will ever use it, it was fine the way before.
 * I appreciate that they're trying to get it to see more use, but reminds me too much of an elite version of guiding hands now. --Link4all 21:10, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Bypass aegis for target lock gayness is useless? Lightblade 21:22, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * guiding hands > grent's, hands ignores stances and such...--[[Image:User_rayd_sig.png]]‎ Rayd 21:24, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And so does AoG, learn to read?  [[Image:User_Riven_sigicon.png]]    21:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Take ur own advice pl0x. AoG only works vs enchanted and GH works against all blocking sources.--74.61.209.219 21:33, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * So much FAIL. Read what he said again: "hands ignores stances and such". The same goes for AoG. That's all I was claiming. I'm fully aware that AoG requires the target to be enchanted, but when it is, it 'ignores' stances just like Guiding Hands would. Now stop FAILING or go play Tetris ffs.  [[Image:User_Riven_sigicon.png]]    21:41, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Nice try at covering up ur stupidity but I see through it. Why dont you listen to nova and QQ--74.61.209.219 21:43, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you completely stupid? No need to answer that.  [[Image:User_Riven_sigicon.png]]    21:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * riven why do u continue to fail so hard? --Cursed Angel [[Image:User Cursed Angel Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 21:46, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay let me clear this up... Rayd stated: "guiding hands > grent's, hands ignores stances and such...". This is simply wrong: Both Guiding Hands and Avatar of Grenth and will 'ignore' stances, as would any skill that reads 'you cannot be blocked' or similar. The difference is that Avatar of Grenth requires the target to be enchanted, which is completely NOT related to 'stances and such'. Both skills act the exact same way when dealing with stances. Again, stop failing please, it's getting embarassing. --Riven, posting through a proxy becuase Brains12 is a gigantic shitcunt.67.159.44.24 21:53, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Who thought that line up? Brains is one of the most level-headed people on the wiki. Your comments above are rude and absolutely unnecessary, and so you were given the block you deserve for that.  Calor  (t) 21:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) If these people would stop being so goddamn ignorant, and actually read a skill description for a change -- or at least read my explanation of why they are wrong and then accept that -- I would not need to be rude. Ignorant people deserve to be called out. --Riven 64.191.50.138 22:01, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, GH ignores blocking stances without any condition, AoG NEEDS an enchantment, thats what I was trying to say, sorry if you misunderstood me, also qq moar and stop failing to understand people --[[Image:User_rayd_sig.png]]‎ Rayd 21:59, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I misunderstood you? LMFAO!. You literally claimed AoG doesn't help against (blocking) stances, which is simply completely false information. It has absolutely nothing to do with me (or anyone, for that matter) misunderstanding you. --Riven64.191.91.101 22:05, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You could always just use Wild Blow to remove the stance. It's a lot easier to remove blocking stances than it is to remove blocking enchantments. --Curse You [[Image:User Curse You sig icon.png|Curse You]] (talk|contribs) 22:06, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

You're having sex silently, mr. OP. -- Armond Warblade 22:08, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Riven we already know you fail so stop trying to defend yourself. You were never clear in your first counter argument so you were called out and now you have to be rude by insulting other people when they were simply stating that Avatar of Grenth is more conditional than Guiding Hands. Never did anyone say it "doesn't help against blocking stances". Try to put less words in other peoples' mouths please, we don't know where you keep them ._.  --74.61.209.219 22:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If I may quote, "guiding hands > grent's, hands ignores stances and such...--[[Image:User_rayd_sig.png‎]] Rayd 21:24, 6 February 2008 (UTC)" -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 22:18, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I must be really blind if I fail to see your point.--Underwood 22:22, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I fail to see it too. And damn... I just said grenth's doesn't help without enchantments no "ITSCOMPLETELYUSELESSZOMGWTFBBQ" and I compared it to guiding hands because someone said it was the elite version of GH (which is not, thats why I said GH > AoG, comparing unconditional > conditional) btw, /thread over for me --[[Image:User_rayd_sig.png]]‎ Rayd 22:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Btw that was me way up there I was um...blinded with rage...so I didn't log in. <3 u rayd --Underwood 22:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'll go over this one more time for those completely retarded fuckwits among you that still don't get it.
 * Rayd states: "guiding hands > grent's, hands ignores stances and such...", important part bolded for emphasis.
 * In other words, he is literally stating here that somehow Guiding Hands is better at dealing with stances than Avatar of Grenth is. Which is completely untrue.
 * There is absolutely no way anyone could misunderstand what he says here. It is irrelevant whether or not Rayd actually meant something else, fact is that he is making a statement that gives false information to people reading it.
 * --Riven 204.73.200.75 22:40, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * <3 for you too underwood --[[Image:User_rayd_sig.png]]‎ Rayd 22:44, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * well since GH doesnt need your stanced foe to be enchanted I dont see why you keep trying to argue. --Underwood 22:47, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Lmao Underwood. You're truly amazing. --Riven 91.194.90.76 22:49, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No you just fail.--Underwood 22:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Question: What good blocks are there that aren't enchantments? None. End of subject. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 22:51, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Surprise --[[Image:User_rayd_sig.png]]‎ Rayd 22:56, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Escape, Natural Stride. Frenzied Defense...although you usually use PS. Disciplined Stance...--Underwood 22:59, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Forgot the most important one, blame me, Ward Against Melee. --[[Image:User_rayd_sig.png]]‎ Rayd 23:15, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Escape is bad, DA is bad, ward melee is almost always used with guardian and/or aegis, natural stride is, again, only going to be a bother in 1v1 splits where there isn't aegis/spirit bond/prot spirit, where you're not bringing a dervish, FD is lol outside 4v4. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 23:23, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * What about my ele build with ward against melee with ebon hawk, stoning, and obsidian flame? (for RA) It uses warrior stances to stay alive between ward downtime, so without any enchantments, it will not work with Grenth. But with GH, dervs can bypass my blocks. Thats how GH is at times more useful vs stances.
 * Anything works in RA. In a proper match, that build would get owned. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 07:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree on pretty much everything except DA isn't bad, and FD is lol in 4v4 as well.78.2.22.68 23:38, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Aw Armond, I see you did your homework. I shall commence baking of cookies for you, What is your favorite? --Underwood 23:29, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Oatmeal raisin, with just a hint of win sprinkled in. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 00:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

LMAO!! I was confronted with an Avatar of Grenth with my monk this afternoon, and couldn't do whack, my whole build went down the window, and I was wishing they could just nerf it...and they did!--ShadowFog 00:10, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It wasn't nerfed. If anything, AoG will see more use now (which is also obviously the reason its functionality was changed -- it hasn't been overpowered for a long, long time). --Riven 208.53.138.228 00:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I mean the remove enchantment part, I couldn't do anything, no healing and no protection,Healing Breeze, Protective Spirit and Shield of Regeneration was useless and they are good staples. --ShadowFog 00:54, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Personally, I think it's a great change that'll see use for a little while. It's up 5/8th of the time, most Monk skills are going to do nothing if not make things worse in various scenarios (Ele's are vulnerable due to Attuenments, Ward is up then someone casts Aegis, etc.).  It takes a lot less to upkeep then Guiding Hands, put a Smiter on one of these guys and have him go to town.  Also, I'm happy that Dervishes now have 4 usuable Elites (Mel, Grenth, Dwayna (split), Reaper's Sweep (kinda)).  The problem is, you'll start seeing more Defensive Anthem, Soldier's Defense, Weapon of Warding, Ward Against Melee type stuff popping up more than it already has as people have already stated.  It's also pretty easy to change your play against them, Ward/Weapon more try to not Guardian Grenth's target instead Prot it and RoF it, etc.   Saw a match yesterday on Obs Mode with a Smited Grenth.  Thing was doing its job pretty well if you ask me...It'll change things up. Gothica 22:18, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Attacks
Keep the conversation objective and stop the personal attacks against ArenaNet. If you oppose the skill changes, argue against the changes, and not the changers. Violations of this falls under Guild Wars Wiki:No personal attacks, and further violations may be dealt with accordingly. -- Brains12 \ Talk 21:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Since ANet is a corporation, not a person, all this falls outside NPA because NPA is specifically targeted at attacks on a person and makes no mention of anything else. Rules lawyer better kk? --71.229.204.25 21:39, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * well, cussing and yelling isnt going to help ya... cussing in the game is already bleeped out... and swearing about it on here doesnt make things any better or your voice heard any louder... infact... it will be greatly ignored instead... Believe me, I am not happy about MR very much... considering that ANET highlights my 55-Monk Build on the website and then turns around and partially nerfs it a week later (have to put Mending in now to counter it) but some of these changes are huge for the game... all these sacrifice skills cost 1? Masocasim will be a huge skill to use now... and what about touch Rangers?  The sacrifice touch skills will now cost 0 energy now?  And all of these buffs to self healing none Monk Profesion skills... less need of a Monk?  Granted Ether Feast needed a buff... Healing signet too.  And Avitar of Grenth replacing Merlandru?  I think Balenced Cookie Cutter Agies teams have met their match now... looking foward to the new meta. SabreWolf 21:52, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikis aren't meant for lawyering. Anyone care to cite where it says "No wiki lawyering"? Or is that only an essay, or on GW2W? And admins can still use their discretion and block people for, put bluntly, being assholes, even if it doesn't technically fall under NPA, it still violates the general idea of the policy that everyone is to be treated with kindness and respect.  Calor  (t) 21:53, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It doesn't say it anywhere, but it's still an asshole thing to do, especially when this is the only place people know of to vent their frustrations at a company they feel is screwing them up the butt and skimping on the lube. --71.229.204.25 22:05, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Just as a note, ArenaNet is a juristic person, so while you say they don't fall under GWW:NPA, I beg to disagree. &mdash; Galil [[Image:User Galil sig.png|Talk page]] 22:32, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I could also argue that, as far as the players and therefore the users of this wiki concerned, they are their skill updates (since that's all we ever see of them besides SURPRISE! YOU'RE BANNED.) and therefore any criticism of them at all violates NPA, but I think I got my point across in the second post and I was half-trolling in the first anyway. --71.229.204.25 22:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * As to your second post - this is not a forum. If you want to discuss the content on the wiki, perfect. If you want to vent your frustration, this is not the place - go on an actual forum. I've heard GWGuru is perfect for this type of thing.--[[Image:User Brains12 Spiral.png|15px| ]] Brains12 \ Talk 22:38, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Let me know when GWGuru is associated with ANet in any way, shape, or form, and then your post will be valid. --71.229.204.25 22:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, Brains12, of all people you should know that Gaile and various other Anet employees are using their talk pages on this wiki as a forum to discuss all kinds of stuff -- including stuff that doesn't even have a content page on this wiki. Fail. --Riven 209.17.190.78 23:11, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

PvP chars
NOW START ON ISLE OF THE NAMELESS, NOT IN GREAT TEMPLE!!!! 24.141.45.72 21:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Uh, they have for a while? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 22:11, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No. They start out in the explorable area, so now you have to run into the Temple to change all your skills/equipment, L A M E. On second thought now I won't get whispers from gold sellers anymore. --Underwood 22:20, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * CAPS LOCK EXCLAMATION MARK EXCLAMATION MARK EXCLAMATION MARK EXCLAMATION MARK --SK 22:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I get the feeling they are just trying to hint new PvP players to, just in case, DO the tutorial in the isle of the nameles.... --Fighterdoken 22:23, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Hay guise I has an idea, map to the place you wanted the character for first and you don't waste time. :p Randomperson 22:24, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Well with the people yelling at you "your W/Mo build sucks" or to bring res sig in RA and all the other stuff in AB/TA/HA is tutorial enough, imo. el oh el. --Underwood 22:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think we should have the option to start in Great Temple or Isle of the Nameless. 71.162.168.237 23:10, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Why are you complaining? This is GREAT. There are a lot of us who hate loading Temple of Balthazar (which is usu
 * This is so gay, now u have to zone into tob if u want it on ur map -.-" and god forbid you zone to ur gh before you go to tob. Because then you have to walk all the way from the freakin zaishen challenge just to get to tob to test a build or damage or anything u can do on the isle. Give us options, or dont change anything anet --Lou-Saydus[[Image:User_Lou-Saydus_Sig_Image.png|How dare you put that damned dirty thing on me!|19px]] 17:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

new emote
this update should have added a /eyesfalloutfromcrying emote. the only nice updates were troll unguent and healing signet. and maybe the offering of blood update. but what about offering of spirit? and why not simply cap mystic regen at max 10 regen? Invincible Rogue 22:00, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Cause offering of spirit doesn't sac health when you have a spirit around and offering of blood doesn't have the luxury. And, I too, am puzzled about why they didn't make it a 10 regen cap.--74.61.209.219 22:16, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's so that terra tanks can't abuse it so much. 10 regen cap is stupid, i have 13 Earth Prayers and get 12 with the current cap, while terra tanks can only get 9 at the most, which is good, making them less irritating.--99.225.4.255 22:44, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Cause that four regen you lose to poison is really that important, eh? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 22:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Fucking
Way to ridiculously buff touchers... again. Seriously this update is complete bullshit. LoD is even more useless, AoG is still stupid, mesmers are just gonna be gay as hell now, and mystic regen, which was once a very balanced skill, is now pooped all over... 1 FUCKING ENERGY OMFGGONNAKILLEVERYONEOMFG.--Fallen (talk ) 22:53, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Only skill touchers use that got buffed is OoB. That skill costs 1 energy with that much expertise before it got buffed. Seriously guys, grow the frik up. This page is so full of fail and rants based on absolutely nothing. If you hate Anet so much, if you hate GW so much, then why bother posting or playing? Gtfo then. BlazeRick 23:32, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Bcz they like feeding trolls.--Underwood 23:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol. OoB is a spell. Expertise doesn't affect spells. GFG. [[Image:UserDrago-sig.gif]]  Drago  23:36, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry bout that, never played a toucher. Well, my point is, Touchers are not going to raep now cus of 4 less energy (i got that right didn't I? it was 5 before?). Scratch that, my point was that this page makes my eyes bleed, but at the same time make me lol as idk what. BlazeRick 23:40, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Ye for some weird reason they gave touchers another 4 extra energy, or basically a touch more than they used to get in those 20 seconds of OoB recharge.78.2.22.68 23:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol. "Again"? Lol. As if the four or nine energy really matters; they'll still run out of energy way too fast. LoD isn't interrupt bait now, which makes it good. AoG is awesome, don't know where you're coming from. Mesmers got huge nerfs to antimelee, so they'll only be gay when it comes to migraine spam. Mystic regen was broken in PvP. Get over it. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 23:44, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, if you think Touchers are imba? ... BlazeRick 23:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You won't even need offering of blood to play toucher now. The skills/spells are so cheap now u just need a heal. toucher maybe?
 * Touchers have always beem imba, one energy means they keep up spamming that much more, LoD's 10 secs is ridiculous for such a slight heal, I dont like AoG anoymore than I used to, Mesmers have never really needed anti-mellee nerfs considering they cant do anything else, and mystic regen has always been fine. And blaze rick, i would like to know where i said i hated anet or gw...--Fallen (talk ) 23:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If you can tell me where I said YOU hated Anet or GW. I was talking about the page, not about you. Biggest failure of Anet imo is making this official wiki. Only brought more QQ-ers and bitchers. I mean, look at Izzy's and Gaile's talks. No wonder Izzy wouldn't bother commenting on the wiki anymore. I wouldn't. In fact, I won't. Cya, gl, bb, qq. BlazeRick 00:12, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * One last thing I forgot through the numerous editing conflicts. Mesmers are caster hate 1st, melee hate 2nd. Don't mix them up with necromancers. And if Mesmers can't do anything besides Melee hate, then why are they always target no. 1 in GvG? Because the monks can't do zit with them around. Phail more, ty. Smartass. Goodbye now. BlazeRick 00:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Gj with your NPA, first off. Second, dont generalize comments in a reply. Third, lern2play this here game.--Fallen (talk ) 00:21, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

If you feel yourself offended by being called a smartass, i'm very much done with you. WTS Trolls. BlazeRick 00:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Seems like I'm still not done. Don't talk about NPA if you start a section with this sort of title, or without permission from your parents. BlazeRick 00:32, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Im pretty sure theres a policy against being a dick too... Look into this please.--Fallen (talk ) 00:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Talk nice little boys, stop showing off your penises to everyone else and prove who has a bigger. It's unsightly and, really, grow up. If you hate the nerfs that aNet does, WHY still play? Why can't you all just enjoy and live with it. In real life, there will be changes that will never be welcomed but will happen. No flames, no bitchin and moanin will ever get them good old days back. Acceptance is the key. Renin 00:43, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, did you just say my penis was unsightly? Because I have a policy for you if you did. ): --71.229.204.25 00:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

...Actually...acceptance...is not the way I would have put it, maybe it's "adapt to the new stuff 'cause there's no way to change it now", and making your voice heard because you don't like something it's call expressing your mind which by the way makes good conversation and topic for differentiation of skills, but our friend Fallen just went a little bit too far.--ShadowFog 01:04, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, no more stating oppinions for this camper.--Fallen (talk ) 01:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

you people
are funny. Railin 23:53, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I COMPLETELY Agree. Alot of flamers and emos out there who only thinks of themselves and not the others. These nerfs/buffs are meant to increase STRATEGY and create new BUILDS and not rely on your daily cookie cutter builds. If people hates the constant nerf, then they should just quit playing altogether. Also this is a WIKI not bitch-and-moan forums. Well done everyone. Renin 00:09, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * whoru? --71.229.204.25 00:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

hidden assassin update
GFG anet on that hidden sin skill update ... why kill off shadow refuge back to 4 seconds that was the only decent sin regen skill wtf GWplr 00:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * They better fix it.Prokiller88 00:05, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I lol'd. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 00:10, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah...there's even a commentary that says "6seconds"...what's up with that?--ShadowFog 00:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Because you REALLY needed that extra 20 health, right? C'mon, kids, 20 health isn't worth whining about.  The health increase at teh end of refuge is still as high as their increase, and THAT is the point of the skill, not some shitty regen.  You really want some regen?  Go take troll unguent.--75.45.137.58 16:58, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * oh yea like im gunna put points into wild on an assassin and w8ing 3 seconds for regen is what every assassin should do huh? gg l2p GWplr 01:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Shadow refuge (dispite the name?) isnt made for use outside of combat, it's something you cast then head in and kill your target (while healing to prevent death on your side) then get out and cast again to heal any left overs. --Lou-Saydus[[Image:User_Lou-Saydus_Sig_Image.png|How dare you put that damned dirty thing on me!|19px]] 17:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

AB change
So did this fix the 'broken' part of AB where some teams would invade the others base and camp?Ajc2123
 * I highly doubt it, I remember personally bug reporting it 2 years ago. Vezz 04:09, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Factions wasn't released 2 years ago... Chriskang 10:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Factions was released in April 2006, so yes, two years ago, give or take a few months. --fraught · (talk) 11:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Factions wasn't released 2 years ago... --Lou-Saydus[[Image:User_Lou-Saydus_Sig_Image.png|How dare you put that damned dirty thing on me!|19px]] 17:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

lol
So your warriors go for a spike on a monk, wen both them get fucked for 10 energy!!Great Idea!!!!!! 24.141.45.72 01:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ya. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 01:13, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I really dont want to guess, with what skill do you mean?--ShadowFog 01:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Clumsiness. --71.229.204.25 01:17, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I play Mesmer a lot in PvP, this skill is just for damage...has a interval of 10 seconds, not much of a stopping(not spiking) power considering the Mesmer can only try to "scare" the melee with things like these, unlike the casters, but if you can spot the icon as soon as its cast, its just the matter to wait 4 seconds, while waiting if no one is near, spam the Healing Signet, since there is like only 4 skills, between Factions(2) and core(2), that a Mesmer have to interrupt a signet.--ShadowFog 01:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * GvG. Two warriors go for a spike.  Mesmer doesn't suck, catches them both on activating their first skill.  They both take lots-o-damage since they probably had Frenzy up and their spike is fucked since they were interrupted, and it only cost the Mesmer 10e.  That's what he's talking about.--71.229.204.25 01:44, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * hmm...same thing he said, for damage only, I would like to see that happen, Ws frenzy up near a Me and then taking all that damage!
 * What's this? you made your spike ovbious and got caught out by a hex now cast half as slow? Man you suck. --Ckal Ktak 09:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * What's this? You brought a build that doesn't sacrifice utility for shadowsteps and it got caught by an overpowered hex? Man you need to learn to play. I ask you, what are you going to spike with if not warriors and dervishes? Everything else in the game is spike support. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 10:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Stop being so obvious when you run at your target, there's always fakeout. --Ckal Ktak 12:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd love to see you try it. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 16:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Dervish and alternative Heal?
I won't be a mindless flamer because I'm not sure if this is even that much of a problem. I think my dervish is running 4 enchantments, INCLUDING mystic regen. When I get on GW again and discover that my healing has been majorly slowed, what shall I replace it with?-  Vanguard  14:10, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Mystic Vigor, Dwayna's Touch, Pious Renewal, Mystic Healing, Balthazar's Rage, Vital Boon, Signet of Pious Light, Faithful Intervention, Watchful Intervention? - [[Image:User HeWhoIsPale sig.PNG]] HeWhoIsPale 14:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Er, without changing my secondary? I use D/W and Wild Blow never leaves my bar.<BR>

Mystic Vigor, Renewal, Healing is too insignificant. Dwayna's Touch might work. Balthazar's Rage does nothing for a while, I hate those type of skills. The signet murders my enchantments which is bad in mid-battle. Vital Boon is alreay on my bar, it is one of the enchantments that fed mystic regen. I THINK Faithful is on there, I forget. Anyway, that's my synopsis.-  Vanguard  14:43, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * With 3 enchantments + mystic regen, is the max 3 enchantments limit a problem? I always thought mystic regen didn't count itself, but then I've never given it a serious try either. :S &mdash; Galil [[Image:User Galil sig.png|Talk page]] 14:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

If you've got 8+ Earth Prayers, you've still got a bitchton of healing. :/ -- Armond Warblade 16:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Monks heal too. BlazeRick 17:45, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Blaze and Armond are indeed quite right. It may not be as big of a problem, but I do PvP with this Dervish sometimes and I don't always have a monk backing me, and before this update I was able to hold my own for a while.-  Vanguard [[Image:User-VanguardAvatar.PNG]] 12:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

1 energy
Why did they do this? Not that I disagree, since I'm a necro and I love this new update. But why the f*ck wouldn't they just make the skill energy-free, since none of the 1 energy skills (except for dark pact) is spammable... Discuss!
 * Not sure how they are coded, but maybe spells need to have energy requeriments to exist, and changing them to zero energy would make them skills instead. That, or they thought it would be funny :).--Fighterdoken 20:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If it's coded intelligently, skill type and energy requirement are two completely different variables. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 20:27, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If being the key word in that statement XD.--Fighterdoken 20:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's because if they stop having an energy cost, they stop being spells and start being signets. All 0-energy skills are signets, and I doubt they're going to break tradition now. [[image:Monk-tango-icon-20.png]]Crystal Myr 07:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I doubted there would ever be 1 energy skills, that's been a long tradition too now. Also all the skills that are 1 energy require health sacrifice(signets dont) --Lou-Saydus[[Image:User_Lou-Saydus_Sig_Image.png|How dare you put that damned dirty thing on me!|19px]] 17:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

FYI
"We will evaluate the following changes this week. Additional adjustments may be made during that time." Just trying to emphasize it, not trying to be a smartass or anything... -- 23:09, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * they say so in every update, go watch some old updates and find out urself --78.82.75.156 00:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Health Sacrifice
"Health sacrifice now displays as a skill cost." - What does this mean? --Zackattack 00:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * they have like with energy a red icon and how much u sac, so that its no longer written in the description of the skill --78.82.75.156 00:28, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

WHY you hate so much the Paragons?
'''Are you kidding me? PPL should not post builds to your PVX cuz all the good ideas you see are immediatly nerfed! '''

'''Im talking abot the Ursan Blessing Refrain build, dont say its not nerfed for that... The build came out on PVX and after 1 week the skill is nerfed!'''

WHY WHY WHY you hate sooooo much the Paragon? At this point im starting to wonder WHY you have created this class?Just cuz there was a need for a a nerfed class??? Its hard to play on its own, hard en management, no decent dmg, hybrid mediocre class...

Where do you keep seeing the overpowered class and his skills!? People are NOT playing Paragon for a reason! Ursan was the only thing that could save -a bit- the Para from extinction and as soon as a-net has seen the Para/Ursan build --->NERF!

Pretty soon you will have your perfectly balanced -empty- game, and you will be happy with your resultSpaghetti 00:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * they created paragons to have something to nerf so much that the other professions should think like; yea maybe it wasnt as worse as for the paragons and dont post hate mails here--78.82.75.156 01:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * This post is full of fail. Paragons have good damage, great energy management, great support, and a few extremely good skills. That build your talking about was bad already. Paragons have the Focused PvE Paragon, which is 100x more imbalanced than ursan blessing.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 08:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The only person that could state a crap like this is someone that works for the a-nerf, no person that i know shares this opinion about paragons, along with the mesmers they are the lest popular class in the game.


 * You say paragons have good dmg, good dmg = mediocre dmg, and no place for mediocre nerfed classes in my team!


 * Paras do not have decent en management, take a para for 1vs1 or in a 4man RA and see...


 * Paragons are not a great support, a support paragon cannot pull the dmg as a dmg dealing one, and for healing/protecting the paras cant stand a chance vs the Monks, paragon support = lol


 * Few extremely good skills... yes just the few good skills will not make a decent class... nothing you can't bear staying without anyway...

I mean poor paragons, at the current state they dont fit anywhere, dmg no, support no, lol i have seen some poor paras trying to play the Obsi Tank War builds just to be able to do something...

and in the end you are suggesting a further nerf to the Paragons by "Paragon Focused is 100x more imbalanced than Paragon/Ursan" lol, go ahead and do so, the inexistant paragons dont mind anything

I repeat paragons have BAD en management, MEDIOCRE dmg output, have MEDIOCRE healing/survivability.

They fcked up the mending ref JUST cuz of the Paragon/Ursan builds, Mend Ref was inexistent in the Para skill bars b4. and wht kind of nerf is that 3+ regen?? at this point they might as well make it +2 regen or even make it:

Mending Refrain

'''For 20 seconds, target non-Spirit ally has +0 Health regeneration. This Echo looks cool on your skill bar. This Echo is reapplied every time a Chant or Shout ends on that ally.''' Spaghetti 13:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

P.S. lol i have just seen that the Paragon Focused PVE (suggested as overpowered by Teh Uber) build uses Aggressive Refrain (pretty nice one a-nerf) that makes the Paragon a class with soft (caster) armour that has +2 pips of en manegement, not the enrergy nor the armour, wow how overpowered... lolSpaghetti 13:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Stop being bad at the game. Seriously, your comments betray absolute ignorance of the topic.
 * Guild Wars is a team game. Guild Wars is not about 1v1. When paragons lack energy management in some scrub e-peen duel between bad players who don't know how to actually play, it does not make them bad.
 * Bad players hate paragons because bad players can't conceptualize a support class, let alone begin to use one. Paragons are not a solo class. Paragons can't single-handedly wipe a map of enemies. However, against enemies that usually single-handedly wipe your party, paragons are amazing tools. Reducing party-wide damage by a third while adding a hundred armor to each person? How is that not good? I hear people complain about hard mode and certain bosses, but I've never run into trouble when they're doing about 30 damage per attack, tops.
 * Take hard mode Underworld, for example. The only build that the average players ever took through were farming builds. Most people weren't good enough to take a balanced team, as they'd wipe at the first mob of 3 aatxe. Guess what a paragon did to that mob? They reduced Aatxe attack damage to 40. On a caster. If you have problems beating PvE with a class that makes you invincible, you're honestly a terrible player.
 * I'll go down your checklist, but bear with me as I'm trying not to die of laughter.
 * You say paragons have good dmg, good dmg = mediocre dmg, and no place for mediocre nerfed classes in my team!
 * The only things that outdamage paragons are warriors and the occasional dervish. Paragons, however, attack at range; simple hex snares and the entire Crippled condition do nothing to mitigate their damage. Unless your team is full of warriors and dervishes, you really have no place to speak; because your team is guaranteed not doing that much damage.
 * Paras do not have decent en management, take a para for 1vs1 or in a 4man RA and see...
 * I commented on this already. Stop thinking 1v1 means anything and start treating Guild Wars like a team game.
 * Paragons are not a great support, a support paragon cannot pull the dmg as a dmg dealing one, and for healing/protecting the paras cant stand a chance vs the Monks, paragon support = lol
 * ...I have no comment, except that your math is incredibly lacking. Go read TNTF and SY, then realize both are maintainable on any half-decent team. No monk prots get even close to that - period.
 * Few extremely good skills... yes just the few good skills will not make a decent class... nothing you can't bear staying without anyway...
 * Unfortunately for you, the few "good" skills are the most broken skills in the game when it comes to PvE (which is pretty much all you'd care about). Paragons aren't incredibly balanced in PvP either, but that's another can of worms. All I can say is I'm glad Incoming! no longer works.
 * i have seen some poor paras trying to play the Obsi Tank War builds just to be able to do something...
 * You have been observing some incredibly unskilled paragons. On a related note, tanks are bad. Guild Wars has no place for them; they make even simple tasks like FoW clear take twice as long, at least.
 * I repeat paragons have BAD en management, MEDIOCRE dmg output, have MEDIOCRE healing/survivability.
 * I repeat... wrong, wrong, and who cares about healing? Do you have a shortage of monk heroes, or do you usually take Heal Party on your warriors?
 * They fcked up the mending ref
 * Oh my god, did they reduce your entirely passive healing by 2 HP per second? Call the lawyers, I'm going to sue!
 * that makes the Paragon a class with soft (caster) armour
 * Right, because Paragons definitely don't have Centurion's insignia or a shield. I mean, that 26 armor (36, actually, if you have shield sets for +10 def vs ____) doesn't mean anything, right? Oh, wait. - Auron 13:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, did I mention Paragons were the first thing to beat Mallyx hardmode? Yeah, funny thing. Must have been a coincidence. - Auron 14:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I was about to say without arguing quite the same thing. So agreed with Auron. Saying paragon was a "nerfed class" only shows a lack of knowledge and imagination. lussh 14:05, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The whole argument is irrelevant. We all know that the paragon is good when there is more than one, +100 armor is not a paragon feature, it's a warrior shout in any case. Anyway, moot issue, Ursan-way needs to be nerfed! That's why so many people don't know how to play paragons right, since all they know now is how to do ursan. I have been through DOA, UW, FoW, The Deep, Urgoz, Sorrow's Furnace, Slaver's Exile, etc with my paragon, never once running any of the EoTN new pve skills. No real problems, however, my build make up always has the two additional paragon heroes in it, doing a number of complimentaring shouts on the party and to each other, even Dunkoro is Mo/P to take advantage of free healing and energy when he uses shouts - energising finale, chorus of restoration, finale of restoration, he outheals any conventional monk and never runs out of energy. If you've played a paragon since the class was introduced, then you will understand why it was nerfed, and why people who have carried on playing paragons since then will say that it is a playable class, just other classes need to take a chance and invite them to the party ;)

But please ANet, unless you don't really care about the economy, do something to ursan-way, DOA farming is pitiful. --Shaia 15:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


 * 1. (for lussh) Your lack of culture and understanding what the discussing page is for. We are not here to make low class personal attacks (how bad one plays gw, how one is ignorant or not etc.) i simply dont have time or interest for this kind of talk, and idk any reasonable person who does.


 * 2. I dont think A-Net designers are gods that do not make mistakes, nor im willing to lick their asses by saying they are always right.


 * 3. Paragons are among the less favorable classes in the game. You cannot say a thing here, this is a fact. One person can be wrong but when the majority of the GW players dont like Paras there is something wrong about it. So with the talks like "you dont like paras cuz you bad" you are just making a fool of yourself.

It shows one again that paragons have to steal other classes skills to make a decent living.
 * 4. "Save Yourselves!" is a WAR skill, no need to list it as a paragon one. While +100AL from Save Yourselves! is approx 80% of dmg reduction, "There's Nothing to Fear!" grants just poor 35% dmg reduction (just like "They're on Fire!").


 * 5. Why should I not consider 1vs1, 4vs4, ra and low lvl areas (4 member party limit), or a scenario when 4 pary members will be alive and 4 will be dead, when just a few ally are in the earshot and many soft casters way back, or a scenario when paragon will be the last alive vs 1 opponent... What a Paragon will do, tell im sorry party, im paragon im not designed for this situation...


 * 6. Mending Ref was +2/+4 regen now its +2/+3 regen, even if this +1 regen difference seems nothing the healing from this skill is decreased by 100%!

so a paragon with Aggressive will have just 8AL more than the Monk or any of the other softies...
 * 7. -Because Paragons definitely don't have Centurion's insignia or a shield. I mean, that 26 armor And casters definitely cant use Blessed Insignia and a base AL Shield for a total of +18 AL?


 * 8. The only things that outdamage paragons are warriors and the occasional dervish and Sins, Eles, Rituals... pretty much every Dmg dealing class...


 * 9. The Paragon is the class with +skills bugged see List of skill anomalies


 * 10.with the last Game updates:October 2007 and Game updates:February 2008 has resulted in a major and continuous Paragon Nerfing!

So if you think that Paragons are still overpowered, lets put them on a wheelchair to make them more balanced.Spaghetti 16:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

And URSAN WAY is a Real fun, the ones that dont like it dont use it, but plz plz plz dont ask fun skills to be nerfed just cuz you dont like them.Spaghetti 16:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * 1. Auron just cuz that one build with like 4 pve skills work in pve doesnt make paragons good as whole, pve skills were created to make professions that was unwelcome in pve hopefully accepted at all, the paragon skills was made too powerful cuz they sucked so much.
 * 2. The very few skills u say is overpowered among all the fail skills are in fact overpowered but doesnt make the paragon as whole any good if theres only like 4 skills that work.
 * 3. Is there more than 1 build paragons can use? tell me.
 * 4. more armor is better but as it the class is outclassed by warriors, dervishes and eles at damage and monks and ritus at supporting the paragon just fails. --78.82.75.156 16:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I lol'd so damn hard at all of this and am not going to say much to counter it since it's fairly obvious the person who started this lacks some very basic knowledge of GW. Anyways I'm just gonna note that Mending Refrain was nerfed (or somewhat balanced) cause SoR paras were using it in GvG and the +4 was obviously considered too much passive unstripable healing. If they really wanted to do something about Ursan they would cut the dmg of the first skill in half or some such.78.2.24.62 16:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

. (for lussh) Your lack of culture and understanding what the discussing page is for. We are not here to make low class personal attacks (how bad one plays gw, how one is ignorant or not etc.) i simply dont have time or interest for this kind of talk, and idk any reasonable person who does.

that's exactly what i think about you but it seems you didn't understood it as you are likely repeating the same "arguments" i used (and you used). i'm out of this page, there is no discussion, it's just complain QQ. lussh 21:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

All the talks appart from the main subject are to keep out, thank you Spaghetti 22:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

You are purely epic Spaghetti.


 * 1. What lussh said is completely true.


 * 2. Your right. Creating the paragon was one of them completely killed PvE (not that it was hard before, excluding elite missions) and was so overpowered in high level PvP that it had to be nerfed many times over to somewhat balance it. This is proof that Anet makes mistake. A few mistakes: Ursan, overpowered PvE skills in general, consumables, shrines in PvP, Mel Avatar, and many others.


 * 3. The majority of the people playing guild wars suck badly. People who suck badly do not like paragons because, like Auron said, bad players can't conceptualize a support class.


 * 4. Its the builds and attributes available that make how good a profession is, not skills that profession has. Fact of the matter is that "Save Yourselves!" has great synergy with paragons, and its better on them than on warriors. Saying "but its a war skill!" doesn't mean anything when its available to paragons and when they use it better than anything else.


 * 5. "Coward!" Paragon for four vs four. One vs One shouldn't be considered because this is a team game and thus a profession shouldn't be balanced for One vs One.


 * 6. There was a reason it was slightly nerfed. It was too powerful in eight member parties. Skills that are overpowered (in PvP) get nerfed.


 * 7. Casters aren't enchanted near as often as paras are under shouts (the obvious exception being eles with attunements). Two more things: casters often need radiant/survivor armor and they need their high energy sets out sometimes. Paragons don't have these problems.


 * 8. Certain sin builds, yes. Eles and rits no. Nukes can't always be trusted to deal damage against decent players. In PvE they can't be expected to do more than others, they're expected to make the party invincible instead. They still have good damage, though.


 * 9. And many of those benefit the paragon. Many more don't really do anything bad.


 * 10. Yeah, overpowered skills get nerfed (in PvP).

Anyways, Ursanway, consumables and Paragons do need nerfed more. Your "fun" comes at the cost of ruining any challenge left in PvE along with ruining the economy.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 00:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

=) its fun to see ppl criticize so other ppl lol, do you think that by saying "the majority of the people playing guild wars suck badly" will make you a better player in my eyes, and far from those that suck badly? lol. "Save Yourselves!" *yawn* still talk bout war skills? Casters aren't enchanted... oookkkk lol (the casters got a variety of [Insignia]s granting them up to +20AL each, take a look). Spaghetti 00:56, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


 * 1. What does stating that "the majority of the people playing guild wars suck badly" have to do with my skill as a player? I never claimed anything.


 * 2. What I said about SY still holds completely true.


 * 3. No. Besides eles, casters don't have enchants on all that much. Monks don't waste their energy to enchant themselves for 10 AL, necros don't really have any worthwhile enchants, mesmers don't really have any worthwhile enchants, etc. Even when they do get enchantments, they get stripped easily. Paragons don't have these problems. They have way powerful shouts/chants that their build is usually based around that also can't be stripped.


 * 4. Yeah, most of those are een more conditional than blessed.


 * 5. Your bad English skills are making it hard to understand your posts, please post in a more legible manner.


 * 6. Your bogus arguments are only proving lussh's point. At least say something logical.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 02:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

To 78.82.75.156: show me a single monk or rit skill that reduces damage on the entire party by a third, or a skill that allows them to maintain Save Yourselves on the entire party. Monks and rits simply cannot mitigate damage as effectively as paragons. They can heal, but healing is a less energy efficient method of dealing with damage - still a required one, of course, but last I checked nobody ditched a monk for a paragon. - Auron 07:48, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh I think there was a misunderstanding somewhere because I lol'd at mr. Spaghetti's (flawed) vision of the paragon. :D I'm very aware they're leet sauce ownage in PvE (and not far from it in GvG). I just didn't want to get into much of a discussion with him and only wanted to note that the "nerf" to mend refrain was just a minor balance to discourage the overly defensive attribute spread of the GvG SoR build and not some nerf the Ursanway plot. :D 78.2.10.112 17:18, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * O lol nvm I just noticed that wasn't my IP you were refering to. :D I should really make an account.78.2.10.112 17:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

- SY is a WAR skill and has nothing to do with the Paragons and this topic is about Paragons - do you understand or not?! Even so: SY has 8 adrenaline cost and low duration = you have to spend all the adernaline on it, so Paragons tht intend to use it cannot use other adrenaline skills. IMO classes that dont rly on adrenaline and hit multiple foes are the best for this skill, D or R/Barragers are among them. Paragon that use SY will waste the half of their paragon skills that are adrenaline based.

- Insignias : i dont intend to make a lesson about insignias sorry, ill just say its stupid to say that caster classes have +AL insignias tht dont work lol, and its a fact that a -20AL lvl paragon has at max +8AL than any other caster.

- All the talks appart from the main subject (like personal lvl talks) are to keep out, thank youSpaghetti 14:23, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


 * To use the same "logic", Shock is an ele skill, but if it went up to 10 energy you sure as hell wouldn't see eles complaining, but by some "weird" coincidence there would be legions of warriors shouting not very nice words at Anet. Anyways you can't ignore secondary class options (especially uber powerful ones like SY, that doesn't require any attribute points) when making your skill bars. Get your faction rank up to 3 or 4 (depends if you're running Spear of Fury with it) and go win some PvE. With an increased adrenaline gain like Spear of fury, Focused Anger, For Great Justice, you can keep this up something like 70% of the time, maybe even more, so if u chain it with TntF your lulinvincible. How a class that does that is any way nerfed or bad or underpowered is utterly beyond be. The only downside I see is that it can make playing very boring cause it takes something like 5+ Energy Surge mesmers to make a bump in your team (all of them e-surging at the same time, gl finding coordinated spikes in PvE).78.2.10.112 17:32, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Basically what the guy above me said. Anyways, I am going to quit responding to any of your arguments, as you refuse to listen to logic.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 18:21, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Yo stfu you're all bad. &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  23:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

As for AL - last I checked 80 base + 16 shield + 10 insignia + 10 shield inscription - 20 cracked armor = 96, which is significantly more than 8 above your average caster (who is epically dumb if he's putting insignias into armor instead of health or energy and not moving away from the source of the damage). -- Armond Warblade 23:47, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Caster 60 base + 10-20AL insignia, +8 base shield +10 shield incription = 88-98AL that is very close or even more than the cracked Paragon armour. Spaghetti 19:09, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Nobody (who's intelligent) uses +AL insignias on a monk, or so I think anyway. &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  03:28, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That's true, no one uses +AL on casters because +health is far better against spikes. Not to mention a lot of the time you're on your 40/40 or some such instead of your shield set, so... generally casters are at 60, 68 at most, which means paras have around 30 more AL than them (and just about as much health because they can get two fortitude mods). -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 03:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Its not a question if one caster would like to boost AL with insignias or not, the point is that the max Paragon cracked AL is less than the max possible caster AL.Spaghetti 19:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Cracked Armor on a paragon is just RC fodder for when you're getting spiked. Also, indent with colons and please stop talking because you really have no clue what it is you're talking about. &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  22:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

lol, a really nice way to respond when you got no arguments left.Spaghetti 10:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You're attempting to compare ideal situations with realistic ones. Stop. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 11:06, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

KunShao,TournamentAgent
The Xunlai Tournament agent has not yet giving me the tourney pts...has anyone else having the same problem?--ShadowFog 13:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep, same here. -- Doll 17:28, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Same for myself and atleast three other guildies.--Xis10al 05:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, able to make new predictions but still haven't received last set...what gives?!--Xis10al 10:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight
Ok, this is a bit extreme on the nerf side, I mean to go from +243 Hp to +60 hp is a bit over the top. Not too sure how many monks actually do use these two skills on their bar, may be more so in pve than pvp, but I am guessing not too many seeing as there has been nothing/very little said about it....--Shaia 15:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It wasn't a nerf, it was a massive change. Cost, cast time, and recharge got halved (Edit: and range got ultra-boosted). Healing had to get reduced as a result. I'm actually considering putting this on my Prot monks for some straight healing. - [[Image:User HeWhoIsPale sig.PNG]] HeWhoIsPale 15:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The point of Divine Healing is to completely heal your entire party. Yes, this change possibly puts it into PvP use, but the original form just had a too long of a cooldown time. A 2-sec cast time is a small price to pay for a massive heal (and massive at only 11 DF). --8765 06:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I used to use it in RA a lot on my prot monk and in PvE, it was MASSIVE. I'm unhappy with the change though, I don't think theres another 250 party heal for 10 energy. --Corbear 08:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd certainly hope not... -- Armond Warblade[[Image:User Armond sig image.png]] 23:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The cooldown is what made the skill unpopular. I guess BLight now has a cheap party-wide heal. I still think it was better as a "oh crap, need a big ass heal right now" type heal. --8765 04:08, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the 3 second cast was great for that. &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  03:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Heal party was 2 sec as well, but very pricey to bring on a monk. 2 sec is still better than taking 10 sec to heal everyone individually. --8765 18:46, 15 February 2008 (UTC)