Talk:Death Penalty

Opinion
Death Penalty is crap. To put it bluntly. For PvP, it's fine, as the playing field is even and DP is quickly worked off. For Hard Mode PvE, it's fine. It is supposed to be hard, afterall, according to its name. But in Normal Mode PvE? Death Penalty is utter crap.

I remember when Guild Wars was first being advertised and hype built up for it. Death was meant to be forgiving. If you died, you didn't lose experience or anything as horribly frustrating as that. After all, losing experience is the direct equivalent of losing the very time you spent earning it. All you suffer is a 'mere' death penalty that can be worked off by earning experience. Okay, sounds great on paper! However, the actual mechanics of it are far from 'great'.

I'm out adventuring with a full party of henchmen in Factions, in the first explorable area in Kaineng City after departing Shing Jea Island. I like henchmen because they allow me to play the game at my own pace. No rushing or running as is common in player-parties. I can take in the plot and pursue quests at my own leisure.

Anyway, there I am slaying mobs and I happen to die in a fight. No biggie, right? Only 15% DP. Then we happen across a boss with two caster buddies. A small mob. We engage, and all three of them unleash Dragon's Stomp. The one from the boss somehow does 250 damage, despite my having just acquired a 60 armor set, but I was only level 17 and spells do more damage against lower level foes. Needless to say, the backline, with myself in it, all die from this spike. The warriors are still active, use their resurrection signet, and we're back in action. Now I'm at 30% DP. They unleash another wave of Dragon's Stomp. We all die and resurrect at a shrine. Although we took both casters out, I am now at 45% DP. We run all the way back to the boss, fight, and I die again. I simply no longer had the health to survive even a single AoE Dragon's Stomp. We kill him, but now I'm at a disgusting 60% DP.

Just four deaths and the game became virtually unplayable. I've encountered such situations numerous times while playing Guild Wars, and it is never fun nor rewarding. At level 20, 480hp becomes 192hp, equivalent of a level 5 character. Just two high-damage spells and it's instant death, and then any progress you made to shave off even a sliver of that 60% DP is instantly lost. Oh, and lord forbid you have a Superior Rune equipped! With that, you effectively become level 2, health-wise, and all it takes is one unfortunate spell to immediately shaft you.

Now, back when the original Guild Wars was advertised, Death Penalty was supposedly something you could easily work off. It takes 4,500 experience to eliminate 60% DP. With a full party, you're only gaining 10-30 experience points per kill. That just is not feasible to work off when you've been reduced to a frail shell of your former self. Even if you miraculously earn 1,125 experience, removing 15% DP, just one death and you're back in the pit. It's a vicious, self-perpetuating cycle, and we players are just hamsters inside its barbed wheel.

So, what are your options under those circumstances? Continue on with an eternally refreshing 60% DP because you cannot take more than a few hits, far too fast for a human being to hope to counter? Or perhaps wash your hands clean by traveling to an outpost? If you travel, DP is reset. That's great, but you also effectively lose all progress you made in the region you just left. That took time. If you are forced to map-travel just to rid yourself of DP, that's no better than losing experience. With both, you are losing time you invested. One is with points, the other is with progress.

Dying is actually fun. It means things are challenging. If you never die, chances are you're breezing through things, and after a time that becomes boring. But when you die, things get exciting. However, in Guild Wars PvE, if you die, you're screwed. Each death makes it easier for you to die again, and gameplay devolves, becoming less about your skill and inspiring a ferocious frustration.

Death Penalty should be capped at a maximum of 25-30%, with 5% lost each death in PvE Normal Mode. Leave it how it is in PvP and PvE Hard Mode. PvE Normal Mode is all about experiencing the storyline. It should not be made artificially difficult because of a few mistakes on part of the player, or unforeseen design flaws that result in near-impossible mob spawns that act as death-bait, or getting gangbanged by three patrols that happen across your party while engaged with a mob. A player should never feel forced to abandon their progress because of the impossible situation 60% DP creates. It's just not fun.

Thank you. -- Hercanic 09:49, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not going to say you're wrong. But please consider that GW is a game where you have to adapt yourself to the situation. If you're encountering a boss or doing a mission - some skills, weapons and armor are easier to win with then others. If this was not the case, there would be some kind of universal 'best setup' and the point of the game would be lost. Keep in mind that when you're exploring in PvE, you'd better avoid bosses you don't need to slay - else it would be too easy. Why do you think the Deathbringer is worth anything? Because it's boss is hard to slay - and only player tactics or skill/equipment knowledge will successfully kill it. Normal PvE is not meant to be "rush around and feel great whilst easily completing any task/obstacle you encounter". To successfully use your time - think before Leroying in the situation. Most things are easy enough - and challenges have to be available for everyone (thus not only in hard mode). [[Image:SigKarasu.png|19px]] Karasu (talk) 10:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The situation I illustrated was very early in the Factions campaign, when skill options are still quite limited, and is just one of many bad DP experiences. Bosses are not the problem. You are not speaking to someone who has just recently begun playing and this is his knee-jerk reaction. I have owned Guild Wars since it first came out. Shoot, a teacher at my school was hired by Anet to work on the original Guild Wars, so I was aware of this game long before it was even released. I've formulated this opinion on Death Penalty after many years of play. I did not arrive at this conclusion lightly.


 * I can understand resistance to this suggestion, though. We are talking about a system that has been in place and unchanged since Guild War's inception. Most people on this Wiki have been playing Guild Wars for a long time now and grown accustomed to its inner workings. Many probably haven't even touched Normal PvE in a while, save for high-level regions or farming. And what will ranting about this issue on a Wiki accomplish, any way? Well, any designer worth his salt is always concerned with player feedback. So, I'm giving it. If it is a problem enough players can relate to, the paradigm could actually change. It has to start somewhere, and this is probably one of the best places to do so.


 *  >> Normal PvE is not meant to be "rush around and feel great whilst easily completing any task/obstacle you encounter". << 


 * You seem to have misunderstood my argument, seeing my suggestion as a way of making the game easier. I am all for a challenging experience -- at an upfront level. Surely you aren't purporting that Death Penalty is what makes Guild Wars challenging? Death Penalty artificially increases the difficulty of the game, simply through the mistake of the player. It is a factor of play balance that is outside the control of the level designer. This in and of itself doesn't break the game, but the near-impossibility of working off said penalty clinches the deal. Now, I have worked off 60% a few times in the past, but only after countless hours of clearing out a map in a methodical manner -- not fun, just monotonous.


 * You mentioned a universal 'best setup' causing the point of the game to be lost. Yet we have near-impervious cookie-cutter PvE farming builds. No, Death Penalty has little to do with adapting one's skills. The fact that you are constrained to 8 skills and can only change them while in an outpost already demands you utilize the 'best setup' against a variety of enemies. I can clear out areas without issue, yet play it again with the same build and die once or twice, causing a DP snowballing effect and before you know it I'm at 60% DP (even from a single confrontation). High DP tends to result more from a few simple mistakes (lag spike, couldn't get a skill off in time; didn't realize a mob was in a patrol path; tank lost aggro and you got body-blocked or snagged on an object; any number of tactical things could go awry--you're human, not perfect) rather than the effectiveness of any build used.


 * Here's the problem in a nutshell: Death Penalty cannot be practically worked off at higher levels, each death exponentially increases the likelihood of subsequent deaths, and any effort toward paying off this debt is instantly squashed by another death. 15% per death is too much, 60% max is too high, and requiring 75 experience per 1% of DP is outrageous. At least one of these factors should be changed for Normal Mode. The DP system was designed before Hard Mode was created, afterall.


 * Here are a few ideas:
 * 40% max DP and 10% lost per death. This would give you a far more generous 288hp out of 480hp, instead of 192hp, equivalent to level 10 instead of level 5.
 * Reduce the amount lost per death at higher DP, to circumvent the problem of shaving off 10% of 60% only to die again and lose another 15%.
 * 0% Morale = -15% on death
 * -15% = -15% on death
 * -30% = -10% on death
 * -40% = -10% on death
 * -50% = -5% on death
 * -55% = -5% on death
 * Scale down required experience at higher thresholds of DP. That way, working off DP at extreme levels is far more attainable without significantly changing the overall system. Perhaps scale it down by the very same percentage that you are down for, so if you only have 40% life you only need to earn 40% of the base experience. Rounded down:
 * -15% = 75exp
 * -30% = 50exp
 * -45% = 40exp
 * -60% = 30exp
 * Have monsters and bosses give additional experience depending on how many of their allies are nearby when they die. After all, your experience scales down with more party members because it's 'easier', why shouldn't it scale back up against larger groups of enemies? They are, after all, harder in larger groups than solitary. Let us not forget what the term Experience is meant to represent. What would you learn more from: fighting 20 enemies one at a time, or fighting 20 enemies all at once?


 * Once again, thank you for reading.

I think they should simply lower the DP cap in normal mode. 15% DP per death is fine, it's the stacking that gets you(and by "you," I mean my Assassin). A 30% or 45% cap would be sufficient, I think. The extra XP from hard mode makes it easy enough to work off DP, so it doesn't need a change, and you usually don't spend one or two hours on a PvP match, so that can stay 60% too. Normal mode doesn't give the XP to wear off DP, or the brevity that would make it tolerable, so a 30%/45% NM cap would be nice. That's my opinion, anyway. Kite 01:52, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Henchmen, etc...
Does death penalty apply to henchmen or heroes, as well? Article says it applies to pets, but doesn't explicitly exclude the other two I mentioned. Brownspank 15:48, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * not sure about henchmen, but heroes for sure. you can even see it. Future [[Image:User_Future_Signature.png]] 19:56, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It does apply to henchmen, and always has. BramStoker (talk, contribs) 21:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Pets and DP
I just tested this today, and my pet obtained NO death penalty. If someone else can verify that pets don't get DP we should change the article. DiamondIce 21:48, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Looks like a mistake on the article. It says pets get DP in PvE, while actually pets only get DP in PvP side. -Taala 12:18, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Monsters
Do monsters in PvE get DP? - HeWhoIsPale 14:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * From personal observation when monsters are rezzing each other, they DO seem to die faster the second, third, and more times. It's just theoretical for me though.  Vanguard [[Image:User-VanguardAvatar.PNG]]14:45, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

No DP
There's a time limit for DP. I thought it is until 10 seconds after your death that you don't recieve a penalty. I can't remember precise though. BlazeRick 17:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Bug? Change? Or just me?
Playing GW today, DP is acting really oddly. I kill mobs of L25 and up, and my DP doesn't go down for a while until it goes down in increments of five percent. So I kill a few mobs... nothing. A few more... nothing. Then one more, and DP drops five percent. Is this new? I admit I've had a hiatus from the game for a while, but I couldn't find anything in game updates about this. Aliana Stoneskye 20:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC)]]

Inconsistency
From what I have been seeing, Death Penalty doesn't reduce your maximum health and energy by 15%. An example is a 55 monk, if you die, you have a maximum of 1 hp. That isn't 15% of 55. Could Death Penalty scale to your maximum health before the losses from Superior Runes and/or a Grim Cesta? That seems to be the only way that this makes sense. Firil Srein 03:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * DP only affects base health and energy. Misery  14:29, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Removal of Unyielding Aura
Now that the skill's mechanics have changed, it no longer applies here so I will remove it.Pika Fan 06:15, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Deaths due to the effects of Vengeance, Unyielding Aura, or Death Pact Signet. Pika Fan 06:16, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

x Sec before Death Penalty
As many might have noticed.. you do not ALWAYS gain death penalty. If you are rezzed and die very fast afterwards - you will not gain more death penalty. Does anyone know how long this period lasts? A few seconds I guess. -- Karasu (talk) 14:23, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems to also depend on method of dying, not just time till death. For example spamming infuse then swapping to a vampiric set to die over and over will only accrue death penalty once, but spamming Blood is Power over and over to die will rapidly get you to 60%. I assure you both methods are just as fast as each other. Misery  14:28, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

=Maximum...?= I recently recieved a death penalty count that went well above your so called maximum

I had 151% Death penalty

I had 1hp and 1 energy

I have a screenshot if u want it. 68.71.6.130 19:07, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I had the same thing yesterday when i VQ'd Ice Floe. Maybe the new update messed with it? i got to 151% before it stopped. I took a pic 2. ~Gilliam Bluestaff, Legendary Guardian 20:32, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * That's a bug, and you should report it, probably here, though you can go through the Guild Wars site and submit a ticket or email if you'd prefer. I'd like to see the screenshot, too, mostly just for curiosity's sake. -- FreedomBound [[Image:User_Freedom_Bound_Sig.png|19px]] 21:21, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * How do i upload a file onto this? and 68.71.6.130 wont be responding cause that ip was banned for vandalising the Mesmer page ~Gilliam Bluestaff, Legendary Guardian 18:14, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

What happens at 60% DP
The current wording isn't actually true. Every party member being at 60% DP is not a problem at all: form a party with plenty of rez and sacrifice skills, get everyone killed a couple of times and eventually everyone will be at -60% DP. As long as someone stays alive, nobody gets kicked.

Now you might word it as: "if you wipe with everyone at 60% DP, you get kicked out". But that isn't true, either: combine Eternal Aura with a sac-skill and you can keep dying as often as you want without getting kicked, even if you were at 60% DP before dying.

What happens is exactly what I wrote: the rez shrines stop working when everyone is at 60% DP. You're not kicked out because of your DP, you're kicked because there's no usable rez shrine any more. Tub 18:08, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * (I knew that edit would be problematic.)


 * Technically, that's true. In practical terms, most players aren't aware of how to manipulate the game mechanics to the point that 60% DP won't put them at risk of getting kicked (and also technically. you aren't kicked directly, you are given the mission failure message). Also in practical terms, if the EA user doesn't have a way to rez the rest of the team, then, the group might as well be kicked.


 * My concern is that rez shrines stop working isn't a strong enough warning.


 * So, probably the article needs two things: (a) an intro that suggests that teams are screwed if they let everyone get to 60% DP unless (b) they have taken steps (probably listed in notes, rather than the intro) to prevent that from being an issue.


 * So, mebbe something like, Rez shrines stop working, which will lead to getting kicked if everyone dies with suggestions on how to reduce/eliminate that risk. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 18:20, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I've found this documented on at least 3 more articles: Wipe, Hard mode and Guide to hard mode. Funny enough, only Wipe got it right.
 * I've elaborated the warning as per your suggestion; unless you have further concerns, we should then fix the other two articles accordingly. Tub 20:22, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * That works better; thanks. I was hoping that you would also include (under notes) the tricks used to get around 60% DP being a problem. However, I wonder how much of this we should repeat across articles.


 * I tried to reconcile DP and Morale Boost a while back, so that (a) each article covered its own topic and referred to the other for details and (b) so that they were structured similarly. I'd like to see that we do the same for the other articles, too. e.g. the Wipe article should mostly about what wipe is and leave tips on DP or morale to other articles. (Otherwise, if we fail to keep things in lockstep, we end up with contradictions across articles, as the un-synchronized minor changes proliferate.) — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 20:37, 22 June 2011 (UTC)