Talk:Aggressive Refrain

OK, -10 or -20 armor while attacking has been discussed - reapplied -20 armor (cracked armor) all the time is... erm... dunno if I really want to use this at all. Too harshly nerfed. --Longasc 19:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Dang it ANET. We actually find a decent Paragon build, for once, and you Nerf it AGAIN!! CAN'T YOU JUST LEAVE THEM ALONE! Dang... Why did you introduce Paragons if you hate them so much. Arrrg. 71.252.100.42 20:20, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * What??? This isn't a nerf??? Dismiss condition = win. Izzy = fail. &mdash; Skuld 20:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll have to test it, but if it reapplies cracked armor every time it reapplied, it isn't just going to go away. But what I really feel is that this is just an easy way for Paragon to apply cracked armor.  Wow, a 20 second cracked armor, just use plague sending and you have the first AoE Cracked armor in the game, double it up with caugerty signet for massive condition removal, as well as cracked armor and burning plaguing.


 * Worst part is, I hate how the fundimental logic is always overlooked, if your going to weaken an ability because it is to powerful, it doesn't mean it can still cost too much, weaken the ability, lower the cost. That may not be a serious issue here, but it is commonly overlooked with most nerfs.--BahamutKaiser 04:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * One dismiss and AR is back to being the most imba IAS in the game. If anything, it's just RC fuel; they didn't touch imbagons' spear dps, unlimited energy, or free elite slot and secondary. Poor way to balance, I'd much rather have -24 while attacking or -20 at all times. - Auron  12:21, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Cracked armor is renewed with each renewal of AR. AR is renewed with each end of chant/shout/echo. Paragons are always shouting, it's what they do. So even with remedy signet it's pointless, one shout and then Cracked armor is back. Poor monks won't be able to keep up, someone will have to tell them not to remove it...mind you how they going to remove blind and poison and bleeding when it's always covered by CA? Oh wait, you mean you want them to shout and not attack quickly then. Ok, sure why not. Or wait, you want them to use warrior stances rather to attack faster? Great thinking on this ANET. May be we'll see P/D's now using Wind magic to attack faster with GFTE still being spammed...oh why bother. --Shaia 13:26, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

lolMathz
Okay, let's look at this mathematically, before getting our panties tied up in knots...


 * -Paragons have a base AL of 80. For the sake of freedom of gearing, we'll ignore the fact that they can get 90AL with an Insignia set here.
 * -Cracked Armor reduces your AL by 20. This will give the Paragon 60AL. Seems painful. But then...


 * -Paragons use Shields. If you aren't dumb, and are using a max shield, that's 16AL right there. So you are back up to 76AL.


 * -Again, on the subjects of Shields, you should have several of them with +10AL vs. X Damage type. And as it's so very easy to swap your shield, we're at 86AL (assuming of course that you have +10AL mods on your shields, and not something stupid like -2 Physical Damage while Enchanted).

So right there, you have 86AL. A lot less than than 106AL you had before this update, but it still makes you rough and tough. Onward to skills, shall we (the following will mostly be touching on PvE)?


 * -"Watch Yourself!" will still be up constantly if you have it, giving you somewhere around 14 more AL vs. all sources. Nifty, eh? If you don't have it, then wow, make a party member bring it, or put it on a hero. There's no reason not to have party-wide +AL that is so cheap in PvE.


 * -"There's Nothing To Fear!" is still LOLPWNSUM. Come on. You have that, you win the game. You could run around with 40AL and still kick ass.


 * -"Save Yourselves!", another popular PvE skill, gives everyone in the party other than the user +100AL. OHAI. PLZ SUR, CAN I HAS SUM GODMOED? Slap that on yourself and/or a second Paragon (again, in PvE, there's no good reason not to be running a team build with as much party-wide buffage that also comes with killer DPS as possible) or a Warrior, and you are good to go.

Then there are all sorts of other skills you can, and should be, taking along that improve your survivability. In short, Paragons are still rather hardy in PvP, though not as ridiculous as before, and in PvE, it's still lolgodmode. Shitloads of damage reduction, armor, and party buffs, and people are complaining about -20AL for a permanent 25% IAS? You have got to be kidding. Faer 20:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * WY and GFtE have been given a 4 sec cooldown now, be aware ;)--Shaia 11:42, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * SY is a waste of time in PVE unless you have your faction title high enough. BTW, this now recharges quicker than WY with it's new 4 sec cooldown. And good luck finding a second paragon in PVE anyway. I am so happy I got my Legendary Guardian title on my paragon before this test ;p --Shaia 11:42, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Shaia; please respond to his post at the bottom, don't put your replies in the middle of his post. - Auron 12:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * My favorite part is Remedy Signet. CrAr? I don't see it on me. When chants end, I get my condition, then I remove it. When the chant's active, I'm probably gaining a nice armor boost out of it anyway, so no big deal. There's millions of ways to remove conditions, plenty of them giving you health bonuses on top of that, or even shunting the conditions to your foes. I don't think you'll see Paragons suddenly dying faster then average here, they're ranged attackers no matter what, and ones with nice DPS and increased attack speed to boot, making them tough to kill. --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  21:10, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Correct, Remedy Signet FTW! Can see Anet doing a 45sec recharge on that soon ;p --Shaia 11:42, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * This is a list of other nerfworthy PvE-only skills, probably the reason they are still around. Not really connected to Aggressive Refrain though, rather questioning the viability of the whole Paragon class and PvE skills in general. But you are right. The nerf is not that awful, Paragons still have plenty of armor. I expected -20 while attacking and cracked armor made me exaggerate the effect of cracked armor and came as a surprise. GFTE got hit harder, actually. Does not mean I like it. --Longasc 00:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Not every build can make room for every armor boosting skills. Now, the shield thing does indeed solve MOST the armor problem, but personally 96 armor is nicer than 76 armor. I used to use aggressive refrain on PvP and PvE Spear Paragon's alike, there really was no need to nerf this so hardcore. Perhaps a normal damage reduction like Flurry would have sufficed, but NO. They had to go and make it unuseable... almost. [[Image:User-VanguardAvatar.PNG|Vanguard]]Vanguard 00:13, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't have too much of a problem is they had changed it to -20 AL whilst attacking, but inflicting a condition means that my hero/hench monk will drain all there energy constantly removing this condition from me whilst of the party members die. For any party without something like draw conditions or Rstore Condition it will make it hard for the monk to remove stufflike deep wound and blindness from you as you be covering it with cracked armour. And how you make such a huge nerf to it and still leave it at a whopping 25e????? Ajax Baby Eater 15:45, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Faer Math dishonest argument my smiting monk have 86 AL too
 * -He gets 10 AL insignia
 * -He takes warrior or paragon shield with points in requirements  so have 16 AL (and don't say paragon without 16 shield are dumb, spear/leadership paragon often don't have enough point to have requirement motivation or command shield, if you don't  know leadership shield don't exist)
 * -The best "you should have several of them with +10AL vs. X Damage type. And as it's so very easy to swap your shield" so everyone should have (buy +30 + inscription for pve) in his inventory and fast swap for every damage type, so  7 shield (Blunt damage,Cold damage, Earth damage, Lightning damage, Fire damage, Piercing damage, Slashing damage).
 * -So stop say all paragon base armor is 1XX AL armor it's a lie or we can say monk mesmer rit necro is 86 AL armor.


 * -Watch Yourself! only if you play tactics paragon

Now Faer joke about pve skill :
 * -There's Nothing To Fear is nerf so really sux
 * -Save Yourselves only if you play P/W and have farm for months kurzick points.

But as mesmer i have fun to onwz paragon its easier than before:
 * -Fevered Dreams,Fragility,Epidemic

The better is with my necro:
 * -Paragon cant recover Bleeding Disease, Poison, and Weakness because cracked armor recover it every time chant shout end
 * -Easy lame against paragon cracked amor:
 * -Discord, Vile Miasma, Virulence

I forget Elementalist should have fun too paragon cant recover from blind and burning every time cracked armor recover it Mesmerownzyou 18:14, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * LOL U R FUNNY GAI. I got to "There's Nothing To Fear is nerf so really sux" and stopped reading, because that made it obvious you have no idea what you're talking about. - Auron 00:53, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * wuts dat? ur dum? o ok. Guess I'll take the time to reply to your list of stuff though, in an attempt to better inform you about a little game called "Guild Wars"...
 * -Smiting is dumb, 86AL or not. Used to be decent, but these days, it's in need of a buff (or several buffs) to be viable.
 * -Paragons have a +10AL Insignia too. If you'll please note, I left that out of my short math session. So, your +10AL Insignia argument is invalid.
 * -If you aren't running 9 Command or Motivation, chances are you are spreading your points out weird, or running a gimmick build. The only time I have seen a decent Paragon build that didn't have enough for a shield was in an HA gimmick. Feel free to provide builds that are good, but can't meet shield requirements, however.
 * -Cry more. Buy the mods, or don't buy them. Gimp yourself, or don't gimp yourself. That doesn't make my math "dishonest".
 * -Smart Paragons have a lot of armor. Dumb Paragons don't. Sorry kid, that's just how the cookie crumbles.
 * -As I said previously, "Watch Yourself!" should be on the bar of some party member. Doesn't necessarily have to be you, but if you aren't running it at all in your PvE team, you should drop something else to take it. Party-wide +AL is awesome.
 * -"There's Nothing To Fear!" is one of the best skills in the game. If you think it sucks, then you are dumb and need to go back to school to relearn Math.
 * -"Save Yourselves!" can be kept up all the time at Rank 1 Kurzick, which doesn't take that long to acquire. It's called skill synergy.
 * -As for the rest of your points, lol@RA. GL&HF with that. Nobody cares.
 * In conclusion, you should spend time on the GW wikis reading about game mechanics, and putting that Calculator program that comes with Windows to good use. Faer 08:25, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Mathematics sometimes forget how life can be illogical. I aint going to carry around 7+ shields so I can be constantly switching sets and also there's a lag in between switching. Barinthus 18:10, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Your loss. If you aren't carrying around variable shields in PvP, you should be, because without them you're essentially gimping yourself; and in PvE, you don't need to swap that often because damage types don't change that often in any given zone (Torment areas are chock-full of Piercing, facing Djinn is generally Fire or Slashing, etcetera). As for lagging... I don't seem to have that problem. Maybe it's because I'm playing on Linux. Faer 10:17, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree with Faer. If you aren't going to spend cash making your PvE char pvp-ready (by getting 6-7 shields etc), roll a PvP char. No point going in without additional armor. Like he said before, smart paragons have lots of armor, dumb ones don't :/ - Auron 10:21, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Auron Bushi: ""Paragon

Aggressive Refrain: now causes Cracked Armor for 20 seconds when applied. "Go for the Eyes!": increased recharge time to 4 seconds. We increased the recharge time for "Go for the Eyes!" because it was generating near-limitless Energy, especially when combined with "Watch Yourself!", for Paragons from the Leadership attribute. Aggressive Refrain's tradeoff of 25 Energy had very little consequence, as it was rarely activated more than once per battle. The addition of self-inflicting Cracked Armor should create more interesting choices for this skill. ""

thats down in the izzy logs. well yeah i'd say the change does creat more interesting choices. my fisrt choice dont use this skill my second choice use my paragon for extra storage instead of actually playing him. that an extra 4 bags of storage right there. no more tough decision about how to use the space in storage anymore.


 * Fail less at game, do more godmode PvE. If you're not playing an imbagon and winning all sorts of PvE, that's your own fault, not Izzy's. Armond 10:35, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Cracked Armor
Isnt this skill a bit expensive with this condition infliction? —Zerpha The Improver 23:46, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Dismiss Condition. Restore Condition. Every build should have at least one, if not both (even in PvE; heroes exist for a reason) - they are cheap, spammable, and heal for a considerable amount, which lessens the "impact" of the AR "nerf." - Auron 12:50, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The issue is cracked armor gets re-applied constantly, and as someone already pointed out, it "buries" another condition below it. Mention RC as the solution for this and other issues a bit more often, and it might get onto the nerf list, too. --Longasc 21:58, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * RC getting nerfed would be lolfunny. I don't think izzy is that dumb... although I didn't think anyone would honestly think cracked armor fixed AR either, so... - Auron 01:34, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * If possible, put Cracked Armor as a zero priority for AI monks to remove. My RC Talhk sits at less than half energy because she feels the need to remove my cracked armor, even though I'm a paragon and nothing is attacking me, while the rest of the party is in need of her attention. --Racthoh 07:37, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not so bad with Resilient Weapon. You end up with more armour than you lose and uber mending. Self inflicted conditions have many exploits, you could try it with Smite Condition as well. Dancing Gnome 08:58, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Its dumb, its costly, requires 1 more skill to function and Lightning Reflexes overshadows this skill, 10[[Image:Tango-energy.png]] 30 [[Image:Tango-recharge-darker.png]]: gives you 33% attack speed and 75% blocking chance compare to 25[[Image:Tango-energy.png]]2[[Image:Tango-activation-darker.png]] 20 [[Image:Tango-recharge-darker.png]] which only gives you 25% attack speed plus Cracked Armor and its cost is almost 80% of your normal energy bar the only difference is that you cant get rid off from someone using this? Is that all? Thats a small excuse for its awful effectiveness not to mention that if your foe is using stances or enchantments, the Paragon is the WORST class to deal with that situation since its the only class that has a Wild attack that requires 7 hits to get rid off the stances while they(foe) can activate another(stance,enchantment) just instantly, its evidence that amateurs are editing this skills and not professionals/players of GuildWars making the changes. Adaptation to skill that takes off almost 80% of your energy bar is impossible plus having two skill to pull it off its just ridiculous since you are already paying 25! New players like me seeing this will ask themselves"How the fudge this came by? This gotta be a bug..." just to realize its true a 25 energy skill for a 30 energy class. Theres not a single skill for a Warrior that cost 25 plus there is no way to lower its cost. Dump this skill and try another way. This explain why going RANGER/PARAGON is much more effective than going Paragon instead which I recommend or write your ideas for changes which we need, Aggressive Refrain. Just because its an Echo it means its must cost 83% of its normal energy bar and for being the only non-elite IAS?--ShadowFog 01:23, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

No
Fuck you, Izzy. I don't know why you hate Paragons, but every time you update something, you have to kill off another batch of their skills.

A Net needs a new balancer. >=[ Nao. 71.179.85.164 23:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Be nice, poor Izzy has the hardest job in the world trying to come up with a solution to the Paragon in PVP. But a buff somewhere to actually encourage us to play a different effective build would be nice, instead of just discouraging us from playing a whole class. --Shaia 11:48, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The class needs no buffs. It only needs nerfs. Hell, Defensive Anthem got nerfed before anyone ever played it, and it was still overpowered. The class as a whole was really poorly thought out, and while PvErs (and pvpers, hell) will QQ about izzy taking away their imbagon-induced-godmode, the nerfs are absolutely needed to balance the class.
 * The funny part about this is that the OP here has no idea what he's talking about (nerfing the most imba of all IAS in the game =/= killing off another batch of skills), yet I agree with him; Izzy isn't really going at it the right way. Oh lordy, now the monks have to use dismiss conditions on the paragon once every 20 seconds, how will they keep their energy up??? - Auron 12:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * auron, refrain reaplies itself everytime a chant or shout ends, it reaplies the cracked armor each and every time. ANET needs a new balancer, some1 that doesnt keep destroying all class's options. every time izzy "fixes" paragons, they only suck more.
 * This is the most Imbalanced IAS? It's not even 33% like most IAS, especially other maintainable ones (Rapid Fire is a good example of this) OH! But lets only make that one so Rangers can use it because Rangers definantly need another fucking buff. Are they getting enough Game Play for you yet, Izzy? Are you ready to stop destroying all the things I like playing yet? RitualDoll 18:22, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Rapid fire is bad because rangers fail at DPS and that's all rapid fire does. AR is the most imbalanced IAS because paragons can put it up once and not have to renew it for the next three hours if it came to that; that's the imbalanced part. IMO there needs to be a limit to the number of times it can be re-applied; a limit based on leadership. 10 re-applies at 14 leadership sounds pretty solid - not so short that it isn't worth the 25e, but not so long that it... lasts forever. - Auron 00:57, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

@Unsigned - How the fuck are Paragons over-powered? Defensive Anthem is a less powerful, removes itself, and harder to chain version of Aegis. This doesn't insrease attack speed by 33% like Rapid Fire, but still requires more time casting other things to keep it up (1 second out of every 11 for this, 2 out of every 24 or 1/12 out of Rapid Fire or apply Poison etc). I think he's doing these balancing these skills with his eyes closed. Besides, if anything is over-powered in the High PvP, I don't see why it would be Paragons. You'd have to look at Rangers and Necromancers, because that's all I ever see in HA. And if someone wants to use Paragons in GvG, why shouldn't they? This better be like the fucking retarded idea of Exhaustion on Ritualists, or I'm just going to have to scrap my PvE and PvP Paragons. RitualDoll 18:22, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Boy there is a lot to address here. Firstly, Defensive Anthem ending on attack skill; the ones with attack skills are the ones with the really high armor that you could care less about them losing the 50% block. Assassin are the exception since they don't have a high AL to begin with. However you put a Defensive Anthem up and it will last for the entire duration on a caster with no means of removing it. That is a very powerful effect that so many people overlook. Also, party-wide 50% blocks are amazing. Ward Melee, Aegis, Defensive Anthem all see play in top-tiers of play for a reason (Ward Melee probably not as much anymore since it was also hit this past balance). The difference between 25% attack rate and 33% is 6 extra attacks a minute, nothing significant at all. Rapid Fire has to constantly be applied, and has the risk of being interrupted. Aggressive Refrain is put into effect before the gates drop/you engage your first mob and then NEVER goes away (unless you simply don't know how to make shout/chant end every 21~ seconds). Also, you only get one preperation, you can have as many echos in effect as you want. --Racthoh 07:49, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

This one is kind of harsh since most para builds are going to have a shout or chant ending every 5-10 seconds. This is a deterant for paraspike, which really isn't that difficult to beat with a decent balanced build, but for the single or dual para builds, this one really seems like it's overkill. Even with one Defensive Anthem paragon, you can usually count on Watch Yourself, Sheilds Up, DA, and Anthem of Flame all ending within a 20 second window making it pretty pointless to even bother removing the cracked armor. --Rururrur 20:19, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Really, the art to deviate from a theme are really live and well. We are talking about an IAS, talking on how to avoid the cracked armor...

If using a team of Paragon is the answer... bad design and horrible approach for a new class. This skill is in Leadership for crying out loud, is not as if anyone has access to it, look at Lightning Reflexes!! If this(aggressive refrain) is the non-elite IAS answer for the Paragon then lower the Wild Throw requirements, hitting someone using stances 7 times(or less with skill) is just a journey to recharge it, then the foe activates another stance just as quickly as the first?. Remove the Cracked Armor and reduce the energy cost at least so as to not to take a second skill since the Paragon already has enough problems taking another skills for Finales, Anthems, Shout and Chants and to actually have energy left to activate the Echo.--ShadowFog 18:14, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Defensive Anthem:Unless you play in the arenas where meta is still the same for years, I mean HA and GvG, wasting an elite skill slot that you wont use is just awful. Takes 2 seconds to activate, not as if an interrupting skill will see through that and for being the only skill to block...its almost enjoyable to see people actually use this with Aggressive Refrain. You are wasting 40 energy with a 2 pip energy regeneration! I would to see a energy management to that!
 * Watch Yourself!:Who cares for PvE and if its balanced? Theres hordes of monsters against a small 8 group, so its good. But dont take the PvP version which wont help but just see a small bubble shouting "Watch Yourself! I have +20 against 3 attacks! And cant recharge it 'cause I gotta wait 4 seconds plus all the hits I have to make!"
 * Shields Up!: Laughable skill trying to be good adding a +60 armor as if that will make it a viable skill. Use it for EoTN Master mission of the one where over HORDES of Centaurs attack the outpost of EoTN, then kill it. Was nerf to projectile.
 * DA: DA's office? You mean District Attorney's office?
 * Anthem of Flame: what?

Now...
I see how Paragons need to get nerfed on a few things.. but what about Dervishes..? Those little enchantment heavy freaks average 100+ armor thanks to Conviction and Insignias, and they usually run around with about 12 or so Regen. Mystic Regen needs a nerf, imo. Drop it to a max of 2, maybe 3, especially if you're gonna take away the paragon's primary source of energy via Aggressive Refrain/GftE. I'd be angrier, but I decided to start running VwS a while ago, only because there really is no reason to nerf a combo that was meant to happen.. VwS/Incoming!/TNtF! ftw? 75.5.67.77 22:07, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, going without energy management rocks! The great thing about paragons is their ability to do a great deal of spear-chucking DPS; you cripple that entire aspect by taking ashes. - Auron 00:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * They're never going to nerf Dervishes. You know why? Because Enchantment counters (being a large counter to Enchantment-heavy Dervishes) also counters almost all caster builds (Monks, obviously. Elementalists and their Attunements, Spirit's Strength Ritualists etc.) Which means more people carry it and it'll work against them. Paragon counters, although all being especially cruel and over-powered (Vocal Minority, Cacophony, Ulcerous, the Mesmer interrupts - I think, may have been changed back), are either hard to use or not worth taking because they're "narrow". It was the same with Ritualists. You can't remove weapon spells, so instead of being creative and making it more possible for them to be countered as they were, you just tear them apart so the boring, core classes can have their fun again. I'm so tired of this... 71.179.85.164 01:23, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I hate it when my overpowered builds get nerfed, it means I have to rely on skill again... pity. - Auron 01:36, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Get over yourself, Auron. RitualDoll 02:30, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Nah, I'd much rather wallow in self-pity whenever my godmode gets taken away. - Auron 17:06, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be nice...
....if we actually got a leadership shield? Then you could add all the cracked armour you want and perhaps not so many people would be upset :) Actually, that might be a bad idea. Although, P/W wouldn't really care since they bump tactics up anyway... --Shaia 11:20, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It would be too powerful. They're already more heavily armoured than any other midline profession (read - 60AL casters). C'mon, they're ranged warriors, they shouldn't have the same armour level :-/ &mdash; Skuld 11:28, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * How do you figure they should be 60AL when other ranged attackers, i.e. Rangers, are 70AL? If there are any changes to be made to Paragon AL then they ought to go no lower than 70AL to match the Ranger, yes I know they have a shield as well, but thats just down to the weapon selection. I've seen plenty of R/P with Spear and Shield and plenty of 60AL casters using Shields. But seriously the Paragon is just a Warrior with a Spear, so hence the same AL as a Warrior. I don't see anyone complaining that Warriors are hard to kill because of their high Armour level and asking for it to be lowered, why do this with the Paragon? Ajax Baby Eater 12:07, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Because rangers don't provide any stupidly good buffs and spears > bows. Exactly, a warrior with a spear, so it should to have some penalty for not being in melee ranger &mdash; Skuld 12:16, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Fuck you Izzy.
You HAVE to kill off EVERY SINGLE FUCKING USEFUL PARAGON SKILL don't you? Don't you GET HOW FUCKING WEAK THEY ARE ALREADY? I deleted my goddamn para ages ago because of nerfs. Firstly the initial nerfs, then the goddamn sunspear PvE skill nerf making that fucking useless, and now THIS along with GftE, the only REASONABLY useful skills for a para? Be a dick moar plz. 77.96.223.11 12:31, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * QQ moar and suck less plz. Faer 14:06, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * No u &mdash; Skuld 14:09, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * We can tell Faer and Izzy play the same professions. =\ Their stuff never seems to get nerfed. RitualDoll 01:07, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Want to know something amusing? For several long months (before the days of Spiritual Pain and the like), my primary PvE character was a Mesmer. Have at you! Faer 06:57, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That's because you're a homo, Faer. - Auron 06:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Can you stop with the personal attacks and bad language please? This is the official wiki and the GW community includes all ages, even kids. Lets try and keep it clean please there's no need for it. Ajax Baby Eater 07:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Faer and I know each other pretty well; we can call each other names if we want. The GW community does indeed include all ages 13 and up, since the game is rated T; I don't think I've ever met a 13 year old that got offended by the word "homo." - Auron 07:18, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * More like I can insult Auron all I want. He's not normally permitted to return the favor. I do have some sympathy for the younger users (and their parents, I suppose), but in all honesty, the game is supposedly forbidden to anyone below the age of 13, and I seriously doubt anyone below the age of 16 or 17 reads the Wikis enough to care what is said here. That's not to say I endorse foul language or disruptive behavior, however. I just think people should be a little less worried about stepping on the toes of a kid who shouldn't even be here and more worried about more important things.


 * And besides, everyone knows that male PvE Mesmers are totally gay. Faer 09:05, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Here is an idea gentelmen. Adapt, evolve, change your play style. Sure you fond a combination that was insanley easy, and a bit over powered, and now that your pride and joy has changed, you are angry. You can sit there and stew in your frustration, or, you can be resiliant, and see how you can turn things around. Design a new build. Adapt, overcome. In no was has the game become unplayable as a paragon! And yes, I too have a P that I run. Note, because you know each other does not give you the lattitude to throw insults on a public forum. In private, over a voice program, or on your own website, sure, but not here. Thank you Izzy, Know you can't please all the people all the time, but some things need to be done for the greater good of the game. Med Luvin 15:33, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

what on all earth are you so upset about? o.O who cares about that supid cracked armor? you're not frontline anyway. and if you think it's all that bad, just take sig of remedy. lol. other para skills got nerfed so much worse. - Y0_ ich_halt  16:50, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * You could knock 2% health off Signet of Return and there would be an uproar, same people, same tired old lines. &mdash; Skuld 17:04, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Hai Napalm. Knew it was you even before checking your IP on PvX. Armond 17:13, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * haaaaa, you're a bastard tim. 77.96.223.11 17:24, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Strength In Numbers
Ok, this whole conversation seems to have gotten a little out of hand. I think this is probably due to errant thoughts and miscommunication more than anything else.

One of the main issues between the people that do like the recent nerfs to the Paragon and the people that do not, is, I think, born of viewpoint. I think that some of the people who are in favor of the nerfs are only seeing Paragons from a PvP team dynamic. I think many of those not in favor of the nerfs are seeing Paragons as Paragons.

It is not a secret that multi-Paragon teams are and always have been very tough to break. More advanced teams are prepared for the meta-game and have less of a problem because they are prepared. The more average teams are finding P-Spike Multi Paragon teams to be too powerful. I agree that they are very difficult to overcome and while I personally do NOT find them any more unfair or imbalanced than many of the FOTM builds out there, I can understand and agree to some extent that those types of TEAMS could stand some nerfing. Please read that last sentence carefully. It is the multi Paragon TEAMS, not the individual paragons, that may need to be addressed.

Individually Paragons have become pinata’s to the nerfstick. It is my contention that the CLASS has suffered too much because of the overpowered Paragon TEAM dynamic. I do not think it is appropriate to break the class in response to the average PvP teams difficulty in overcoming these types of parties. It is NOT ok to nerf the individual Paragons into total uselessness just to weaken these multi-Paragon parties.

Wether you play mostly PvE or PvP or play a lot of both as I do, your enjoyment as a player is important. This means that it is important to have a balance that allows the average team to compete with you, elsewise thier enjoyment is diminished. It is also important to allow each class it’s strenghts and not make them so weak that they, as individuals cannot offer enough to an average party in PvE OR PvP to justify taking them.

A-nets solutions to the Paragon Team problem so far has been to sacrifice the potency of the individual Paragon in order to weaken multi-Paragon teams into balance. This is an unacceptable practice. Untill the updates of 10-12-07 the nerf’s were ........ acceptable ............. to the proffession. The latest nerfs simply are not.

Individual Paragons can no longer contribute, enough to a party in PvE or PvP to be as useful as the other classes. The nerf to Aggressive Refrain is too imbalanced. The impact of a single support Paragon on a team is not great enough to replace a more conventional healer or protector in PvE. The damage a single Paragon can do in a PvE party is not great enough to warrant the armor debuff and exposure to condition. A single paragon running hybrid DPS / Support build does not contribute as much to a party as other classes can. In essence the individual is being punished for playing it’s own class.

There may not be a simple solution to this. There is almost certainly no solution that will make everyone happy. But there MUST be some kind of compromise. The individual Paragon is being nerfed into absolute uselessness because of the multi-Paragon team. This is not right and it is not fair.

Furthermore, the nerfs imposed on 10-12-07 will not hurt Multi-Paragon teams enough to make anyone happy. They will still be far too resilient for the average HA team to take down. Additionally the people who play on multi-Paragon teams will be unhappy with the nerfs. So in essence time will show that neither side of the PvP coin will be satisfied.

It is my opinion that A-net is trying to fix the problem the wrong way. The problem is NOT that certain Paragon skills or Paragons as individuals are overpowered, it is that multi-Paragon teams chaining chants and shouts and maintaining each others echos are too much for average players to contend with.......

So why go after the class.....

Why not go after the team ?

I do not pretend to have a solution that will please everyone, but I could offer some better ideas than what A-net has come up with so far.......

Perhaps there could be an effect called “Ringing Ears” that would prevent shouts and chants from having effect if they were used more than once or a few times on a player within 20 seconds? It would not be a condition or a hex or an enchantment or anything that exposed the player to attack, It would simply prevent the impenetrable “wall of chants” that multi-Paragon teams could put out. This would effect only the multi-Paragon team dynamic and it would not have any effect on a single Paragon.

Perhaps there could be an effect called “White Noise” that would be come into play when the same shout was used by more than one character at once, causing it to cancel out so no one recieved it's benefit. This would ensure that an even greater level of communication would be required by teams running multi-Paragon builds and also mean that if they mis-chanted then would be exposing themselves.

Maybe, dare I say it, it is time to start limiting the amount of same-class characters that can join PvP teams. I know that this has always ben a sort of taboo, but honestly; is it really worse than serving up the class as individuals to the nerf grinder? Alot of people, myself included, have invested a lot in thier Paragons, why should we be made to suffer? Many many Many of the FOTM garbage builds we see out there are coming from having Multi X-Class on one team. Wouldn’t it be nice to see the meta-game get a swift kick to the nuts? Wouldn’t it be nice to see well rounded teams start to flourish at the average level of play again ?

Wouldn’t it be nice if actual player skill was more important to the average level player than the meta-game again ?

I do not pretend to have the answer to this problem and I dunno if any of my suggestions/Ideas would really be the end all solution. I do however think A-net has to stop butchering the Paragon PROFFESSION to satisfy the idea that the multi-Paragon teams are too powerful.

What they are doing to the Paragon is no good.

If they decided that they didn’t want Droknars Forge runs to be possible anymore, and decided that the best way to do that was to buff up Lornars Pass to the point that NOTHING was gonna run thru there ever and in doing so made the area completely unplayable, that would be unfair.This reflects the same principle of this latest solution to Paragons. Better to have an Avalanche that cut off the way into Dreadnaughts Drift. The are breaking the indivduals back because the class is too powerful in mass. This is NOT a good or reasonable or fair solution.

It is time to really rethink the Paragon. I believe that if A-net cares enough about the game and it’s players, they will work hard to find a medium.

I am very much against the Paragon nerfs of 10-12-07 as they stand, but I am even more against A-nets seeming  indifference to the welfare of the class itself due to it’s performance in a team dynamic.

The average level PvP player wants paragons nerfed into extinction because it's hard to break a team with multiple paragons. The problem is that making multi-Paragon teams less powerful by nerfing backbone skills is making the individual Paragon completely useless. Balancing multi-Paragon temas by nerfing skills is unfavorably unbalancing individual Paragons to the point that they are no longer worthwhile. The damage to the proffession as an individual PvE character or an individual PvP contributor is FAR MORE devastating to the individual Paragon than to the multi-Paragon team.

68.186.244.60 14:11, 14 October 2007 (UTC)Evenhands


 * "The average level PvP player wants paragons nerfed into extinction because it's hard to break a team with multiple paragons." Wrong, the average level PvP player wants to gain fame and other points whilst afk. And they're beasts on their own, let alone in numbers. &mdash; Skuld 14:13, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * So Evenhands, you're saying we should leave paragons imbalanced as SHIT just because they won't work well solo if we nerf them?
 * Paragons are an amazing tool. Great players can make one or two paragons work well for (balanced) teams, shitty players have to run 5 or 6 paragons to get any use out of them.
 * Some things, like Motivation, need to be completely redone. If it's good enough to run on one paragon, it would be too good in a multi-paragon group - thus it's sort of a waste of an attribute line for paragons unless you're running 8 copies of it :/ - Auron  14:41, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

No, I am saying that the TEAM should be balanced and the individual Paragon should be left alone. Great players are not the ones complaining about the multi-Paragon Teams because they understand the meta-game and are prepared for it. The problems are not stemming from them, they are gonna do fine wether they have 0 or 8 Paragons on thier team, the problem is coming from the new -> Average level players who are taking 5 or 6 Paragons and then button mashing.

I really do not see a lone Paragon as being beast, especially not after this AR nerf. My point however is that this nerf will NOT be that detrimental to teams with 6 Paragons, because they are still going to be too buff, the what does - 20 armor even matter when shouts and chants are being constantly chained? The real detriment is the condition inflicted, because it is a constant cover condition which will plop itself out in front of blind and weakness constantly which will force some retreats due to lack of energy, from not being able to attack fast/often enough to spam an adrenal shout...... But even that is not going to hurt the multi Paragon teams enough to satisfy either side of the argument.

But it will badly hurt the individual Paragon who is out playing in PvE or the single Paragon who gets picked up by a balcanced team in HA or TA. Paragons on their own are subject to all the weaknesses that all melee characters are. Blind and weakness now covered with a constantly spammed Cracked Armor, it is too much of a penalty for playing your own class.

What weakens the team dynamic a little bit REALLY hurts the individual.

AR was a very buff IAS, but it was obviously intended to be used only by Paragons, and at 25 energy it isn't cheap. If there is a feeling that it really needs a nerf then I think it would make more sense to have an innate -15% damage tied to the skill WITHOUT adding a condition. Constant exposure to a condition is way way too much of a penalty. It is also inelegant that attacking faster causes your armor to crack...

I still think it is better to go after the multi-Paragon team with some kind of "Ringing Ears", "White Noise"..maybe even "Deafness" that will trigger when chants and shouts are super spammed. Nerfing skills to the point that the Multi Paragon Teams fall into balance will either destroy the Paragon completely or relegate Paragons to being usable only in the Multi Paragon Team Dynamic..............and that is just wrong, there has to be some sort of compromise. 68.186.244.60 14:55, 14 October 2007 (UTC)Evenhands


 * My single PvE paragon can give the entire party +100 armour and a 33% reduction in damage 10 out of every 20 seconds. As long as Save Yourselves! and There's Nothing To Fear! exist, the PvE paragon is the most broken profession in the game. --Racthoh 06:15, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Ya, lets relegate the PvE Paragon to a single use. While we are at it, lets make Elementalists become Dazed when they use Fire spells so we see more Air Spikers, and lets make Backfire and Empathy do 3...17 damage so we see more Degen mesmers and lets make Channeling Spells cause exhaustion so more people will play restoration Rits.... (oh wait, thats already been tried)..... 68.186.244.60 06:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)Evenhands
 * So your imbagon being instant godmode isn't enough for you? Would you just like the devs to put BAMPH as a paragon non-elite? - Auron 06:53, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

In PvE where enchant stripping is not constant or focused your average bonder can soak up more damage than 6 seconds out of every 20 seconds of +100 armor can provide, and they also have access to Save Yourselves! or There's Nothing To Fear! at the exact same level that Paragons do. Whats more, with a bonder gaining adrenaline everytime a bonded party member takes damage and even more adrenaline if they keep Balt's Spirit on themself, they can keep Save Yourselves! up far more often than a Paragon ever could, even with an IAS.

A Ritualist using party wide protective spirits, which have greater range than earshot, and can easily spare 15 energy in the downtime to shout out TNTF! AND make it wrap around using Vocal Was Sologon exist in PvE... so how do those 2 PvE Only skills make Paragons Imbagons?

I obviously do not agree that they are, but lets say I did agree that those 2 PvE Only skills which are tied to a title track attribute and can be efficiently used by any class somehow set the Paragon up with this God Mode that keep being mentioned .... Why should a proffession that has such great potential be used to simply spam a couple skills? Why shouldn't Paragon Players have some choices how they play thier charcters/class, just like all of the other proffesions do? I do not know what BAMPH is.. can you clarify please?

Auron everything you have contributed to this discussion page so far has been the equivalent of saying "nah-uh", could you please back up your notions with facts, ideas, examples or math so your point of view can be considered? 68.186.244.60 17:02, 15 October 2007 (UTC)Evenhands

Evenhands' case is excellently put in words. I would have never said this better myself. And I completely agree with him in every point. The best solution to these imbecile xerox team builds is the one he expressed: "it is time to start limiting the amount of same-class characters that can join PvP teams." And why not PvE teams as well. No more than 3 (or even 2) same-class characters in any team: no more Paraspike, Spiritway, Ritway, Nway, Barrage/pet, etc.

Paragons only have 2 IAS skills, and one of them is Elite. Warriors have nine (9) skills, Rangers have seven (7) skills, hell even Dervishes, with their inherent ability to strike multiple foes, have 2 non elite skills with added bonuses. If you want to nerf Paragons’ one and only non elite IAS skill into oblivion, give them 5 or 6 new ones. And if you want to cripple each and every one of their ways of energy management, give them 3 or 4 pips of energy regeneration.

Paragon is the narrowest, less diversified, LESS PLAYED profession of the game. Last thing it needs is diminishing its potential. It seriously needs some buffing and diversification on the contrary. Dionyssios 13:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow. All these brilliant suggestions thought up by PLAYERS of paragons. Why does ANET not consult with the PLAYERS of the class for a solution, a balanced solution, to this problem? This discussion is not a 'consultation', more like a let's see how much they whinge now. That's why everyone thinks paragons are just cry-babies all the time. This 'White Noise' or 'Ringing Ears' idea is very good. It can cover all the shouts across all classes, since we all know how powerful the shouts are. Many other possible solutions have been posted on other topic discussions on the other paragon nerf pages....think we need just one section on the para-nerfs now. It's a terrible shame, the paragon is only known for it's ability to be nerfed now. Once upon a time, it was a great class to not only play, but to want to play and to be accepted in PUGS. The only solution that ANet is going to see from this, is that the class will disappear or border on the edge of extinction. --Shaia 13:15, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes the part:

What we see here, from Izzy's team is lack of innovative ideas, vague and lazy changes as to not to take actions properly nor to explore different avenues for solution. If a skill is causing trouble, instead of to get your head and dive into thousand of codes in order to change its functionality, they are just changing variable numbers to save themselves time and money. The "White Noise" idea seems great so as not to exploit certain shouts and to buff them as they were. What can we expect from them with this idea with their behaviour? Is to actually implement the idea and never buff the skill that are already unplayable, ineffective and awful. But still is a great idea, is almost the same approach to the Dervish transformations which are disable if you could transform. Why not post it on his page(Izzy) and somewhere in the feedback?--ShadowFog 18:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "Individually Paragons have become pinata’s to the nerfstick. It is my contention that the CLASS has suffered too much because of the overpowered Paragon TEAM dynamic. I do not think it is appropriate to break the class in response to the average PvP teams difficulty in overcoming these types of parties. It is NOT ok to nerf the individual Paragons into total uselessness just to weaken these multi-Paragon parties."

The Poor Skree Singers
Do you think Anet could be kind to these poor buggers and change there skill set (like adding Remedy Signet or changing when they use some of the skills)? With the Incoming changes the Singers shout it as soon as you aggro them and then they active Aggressive Refrain making it easier to kill them. Norgu is having a field date with these things by spreading the condition all over the place. Many complain how the skill changes affect us but these poor creatures got the short end of the stick because there not smart enough to over come it.
 * It's AI. It was never good to begin with. This just makes the normally boring vabbi PvE a little humorous. - Auron 02:35, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * LMAO!! That has to be the funniest thing said on this page! --Shaia 13:04, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Instead of Complaining...
You all can do what you've been doing for however long GW has been out, and simply build a new build that worked around this. I personally like skill updates like this because it forces people to think, rewires some of the possible gimmicks so people can introduce newer builds instead of seeing the same crap for years. Vanguard 17:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * usage of this skill won't change. ppl will simply bring a condition remover or not care about it at all. - Y0_ ich_halt  [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px|Have a look at my page]] 17:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Precisely, "work around it". When I get another Paragon I still will. [[Image:User-VanguardAvatar.PNG|Vanguard]]Vanguard 19:17, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Sure I can come up with other builds, or play THE adequate P/W PvE skill support build, but that does not change the fact that the Proffession is being nerfed to the point that it is no longer as competitive, useful, dynamic or diverse as the other 9 proffessions are.

The suggestion that a condition remover is a workaround is ridiculous, are you going to spam a condition remover 5 times every 20 seconds onto a single party member? What happens when cracked armor acts as a cover to blind or weakness? Should every single party with a paragon in it require an RC monk now? Maybe Paragons should all carry Purifying Finale, further forcing them into secular builds?

In PvP if a Paragon have to retreat because a Blindbotter is meddling him, or a toucher is chasing him, or a necro has shut him off or a mesmer is degenning him to death or he is hit with 200% DAS FINE! The other team is using time and energy to make him retreat and he is doing his part, the need to retreat because of your own skills is basically a penatly for playing your class. On Multi-Paragon teams the players are refreshing each others energy and echo's and stacking crazy amounts of buffs that average players cannot contend with, but individual Paragons just do not have that kind of power. If anything needs to be nerfed it is the multi-Paragon team, and if that is done by nerfing specific Paragon skills, the Paragon proffession will become totally worthless. It is already very underpowered on it's own.

This is not a nerf to a single skill or to a single build, this, combined with the nerfs to WY and GTFE is a signicant nerfing of the proffessions base, and it will not and cannot come close to breaking the multi-Paragon teams that have caused it to be implemented. The only real detriment will be to the individual trying to play an increasingly less contributive class. 68.186.244.60 19:33, 15 October 2007 (UTC)Evenhands
 * Then it might simply be a matter of luck. As someone mentioned, paragons usually aren't on the frontlines anyway, so with a bit of luck they might not be the first targets for heavy conditions. But even then, a paragon with cracked armor will STILL get hit. Though, in defense of the "anti-update" mindset, this is a bad thing to have since monks will spend their time removing your condition rather than healing one other player. Buy hey, have more than one monk! Guild Wars players can be smart and find ways to work around crap like this. [[Image:User-VanguardAvatar.PNG|Vanguard]]Vanguard 19:51, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The "build around it" idea would be great, if we could afford to buy/capture skills to do that. As a casual player, I swear, every time I log on to play, all of my builds I've discovered with any character have been completely made worthless.  (Note:  I do not ever use build references, only what I can come up with on my own).  And at 1k/skill, there's no way I can afford more than the few skills I have already to try things out (unless I go back to having only one character, but what fun is that?).  All these changes are made all the time without the real players; the casual players in mind at all.  --141.151.143.8 19:54, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I can somewhat sympathize with that, The casual player part. I do sometimes used pre-made builds, sometimes even "gimmick" ones. They have their uses. And not every build I make my own is ruined by a nerf or too, I just use it better. [[Image:User-VanguardAvatar.PNG|Vanguard]]Vanguard 20:08, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, sure there is a great workaround to this nerf, do not accept individual Paragons into your average or well rounded team, instead take a class that is capable of contributing............... 68.186.244.60 20:23, 15 October 2007 (UTC)Evenhands

still, this nerf won't change anything. let's anylyze the gameplay types where it finds use: - Y0_ ich_halt  20:48, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * PvE: who cares about that? AI won't focus fire on this one paragon with cracked armor and you can remove it easily
 * RA: not coordinated enough to take advantage of that. also, you can quickly remove it with Remedy Signet or Mending Touch
 * TA: same as RA; and you'll usually have a monk to remove that. maybe you'll even have a melandru's boon prot who will take advatage from it.
 * HA: there's always at least one RC in every team. no problem at all.
 * GvG: same as HA

Ok have you actually tried this post-nerf in any of these situations, because your assessments are not indicative of my experiences at all.

PvE - I am finding that hero monks will divert way too much energy and attention to removing the condition when I use AR. Even if I am not taking any damage and other players are, hero AI seems to put priority on removing CA. This wreaks havoc with thier e-management. I am soaking up so much of the monks attention that it almost feels like the party is supporting me rather than me supporting them. When I do not use it my e-management and damage and overall function is greatly diminished, to the point that I am being supported by my team more than I am supporting them. I could probably take a second monk to support me and fill the gap that my skills pre-nerf would have filled, or I could play with PvE only skills and be moderately worthwhile some of the time, but not as useful as another class would be in my place.

TA - Cracked armor is constantly covering blind. Monks cannot spam restore condition fast enough to keep up. I cannot attack and unless I stop shouting the option of attacking in not viable as there is simply no energy.

RA - Nothing that happens in RA is worth consideration in a serious discussion, so there is no reason to list this.

HA - In a team without another Paragon I do not have the energy to contribute anywhere near as much as other classes. RC monks have to contend with more than just my conditions and are not able to remove Blind with Dismiss conditions as it is constantly covered with Cracked armor, unless I run to the backline and do nothing. In a team with ONE other Paragon, my energy will hold up fairly well and I can hold my ground most of the time. When I do have to retreat it is due more to my own skills than anything else. With more than one other Paragon on my team, Cracked Armor is not a Problem because so many buffs are stacked on me that -20 armor really makes very little difference and Purifying Finale is being brought into play constantly to inhibit the more debilitating conditions. My own energy management is a non-issue as there are 4 or 5 chants ending on me before i can get 1/4 of the way thru my energy bar and I can stand in AoE or hold my ground vs all but the most concerted melee attacks because the next LoD / SoR is gonna take me back to full health anyways.

Paragons should be supporting thier team, not being carried by them. It is the multi-Paragon TEAM dynamic that needs adjustment, NOT the individual Paragon. This nerf has hurt the individual Proffession too much IMO. I can only imagine the harm that the next series of nerfs will do. I WANT balance, but lets balance the right things.


 * your rant only shows how much this deserved that nerf. you're aligning the whole profession with this single skill. that shows how overused it was and how much people relied on it. and cracked armor is still overrated. - Y0_ ich_halt  [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px|Have a look at my page]] 21:56, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Besides, is the cracked armor, doesn't a paragon provide armor buffs via insignia's/arias/chants for itself? The cracked armor isn't really a problem, and I'm more than sure they'll find another alternative to the current mechanic. -[[Image:UserDrago-sig.gif]]  Drago  22:01, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Your closed mindedness and ability to see conveyed facts as a rant shows that you really do not understand the issue, please refute me with something tangible. My mind is open to realistic input.

This skill is the ONLY non-elite Paragon IAS, it is tied to the primary attribute and it was intended to be a backbone skill. It is something that is meant to be relied upon and without it individual Paragons do not function well enough to be equal to other classes. This nerf combined with the WY and GTFE nerf has effectively destroyed e-management for the lone Paragon.

This is a discussion page, which I am hoping that someone of influence will read, making my opinion clear and backing it up with ideas, examples and facts is not ranting.

It is not important to me that everyone agrees, only that my message is conveyed.

Finding an alternative to the current method may solve part of the problem. 68.186.244.60 22:06, 15 October 2007 (UTC)Evenhands
 * I'm gonna use troll shield on the above post - [[Image:UserDrago-sig.gif]]  Drago  22:07, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, it certainly appears as if Y0_ich_halt doesn't know what he is talking about. Must be another guy who cannot handle a pvp paragon properly and is SO happy about the nerf. Don't know why so many people are having a hard time understanding that the AR/CA combo is going to cause a lot more problems in the team makeup of organised PVP play. No monk is going to be able to deal with having to try and keep a paragon going with RC or Dismiss Condition or mend ailment if that is even still used. You don't realise that CA is going to be covering up other conditions like blind/poison/bleeding - all this has already been pointed out and yet ignored. The monk's going to have to take a bipper just to be able to keep up! I can see that happening ;p Or he just won't play in a team with paragons, now that I CAN see happening. And all this will mean 2 things: Paragons will fade out from PVP altogether or you will still see them in gimmick parties. Come on ANET, balance the problem, don't make the paragon disappear now. Make AR only last 20 seconds. Make it the non-elite version of Soldier's Fury. Or let it work as it did and make adrenaline recharge only a third of normal when under AR, half the energy return of shouts when under AR. There are much better ways to balance this problem. --Shaia 22:21, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Drago, I wasn't trolling, and I was not ranting either,just responding in kind. If in fact a better mechanic is found for AR it may indeed solve all or part of the current problem, but the larger problem may remain in effect. The synergy of multiple Paragons is very strong, but trying to weaken it by breaking backbone skills will have too great an effect on the indivdual Paragon. All I want is balance, but balance works both ways.

Shaia every single thing you just suggested would IMO be worth a try. It is that kind of thinking that A-net needs to adopt. This is not a simple problem centered around a single overpwered skill, and trying to treat it as such will do more harm than good. Nice out of the box thinking, I really hope A-net pays suggestions and ideas like those some thought. 68.186.244.60 22:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)Evenhands
 * The worst thing is that they didn't even take our suggestions. we said -20 armor while attacking, or -10 armor always. but no, they have to use some halfassed condition to do that for us. the worst part about this "balance" is the nerfs to watch yourself and gfte, litterally halving energy gain from these shouts. the worst part about it is that this skill will still be used, and teams will find its way around it, so ANET is gonna nerf it into oblivion next time.66.74.217.246 22:49, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You know the problem, Evenhands? There are better suggestions in this page already, and even on the other para-nerf pages. All of which have been ignored and not even considered by ANet. And most, if not all of these suggestions are by paragon players who are concerned about trying to help ANet address the problem. But it only seems that ANet are listening to the people who complain the most and have been on the receiving end of a paragon beating, those with a bent view of what balancing the paragon should mean. Ask the paragon players ANet, the ones who understand the character the most how the balancing should be done to make it fair to the paragon and to the other classes. This class really only has one effective base to work from and that has certainly meant that AR has been in every skill bar to date. Yes there are other builds out there...not as effective though and this must be remembered. Why must a paragon player use a less effective build? With AR in it's current form, it renders another effective build almost unplayable, because players won't want to play it. --Shaia 08:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * firstly, shaia, you are closer than close to getting banned for GWW:NPA. secondly, you are insulting people you don't know at all. if you did, you'd know that i've been playing paras since nf release and that i know why anet added cracked armor. the point of this nerf was to get rid of paraway. and they did a great job with that! this skill will make the whole para team squishy, making paraway very ineffective since, as you said, monks can't keep up a whole squishy teams overloaded with conditions (although cracked also fuels rc). for single paras in, say, pve, this nerf won't matter at all. the can either overcome it easily or just ignore it. and if paraway finds a way to get rid of this for the whole team, well, anet can nerf it even more. as long as it stays usable for other means. - Y0_ ich_halt  [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px|Have a look at my page]] 12:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe this nerf will have any effect on Paraway or P-Pike Teams. They will still be way too strong for average players to contend with because the shoults and chants of others will continue to provide limitless energy nd inumerably stacked party buffs. The only thing hurt by the AR/WY/GFTE nerf is the indivual Paragon.68.186.244.60 14:54, 16 October 2007 (UTC)Evenhands


 * Oh dear, my life will end. If you cannot accept a criticism from someone else who has played a paragon since it was introduced, then may be I should apologise. You don't care about banning people who swear at Izzy or others on this page? Oh well, let's hope ANet bothers to reconsider this problem then, otherwise more people are going to get their feelings hurt again. Your analysis of CA vs RC is not realistic. All we gonna see now is RC monks on paragon teams, next thing they going to nerf RC as well. The reasoning on CA is not the best option here. There have been plenty of feasible alternatives suggested that do penalise the paragon build but don't make it an unwanted class to play. Keep to the real problem here. --Shaia 13:57, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Uh... where is the NPA vio? I hate it when people throw "OMFG NPA" around without reason. - Auron 14:12, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * i know you don't like that. but i don't like it when people who have absolutely no idea who i am insult me. and if you still didn't get it, the point is that all this wuzz about this 'nerf' is extremely exaggerated, since it doesn't even hurt this skill at all. i tried to illustrate why and all i got was some insult thrown at me. tyvmcugbca. - Y0_ ich_halt  [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px|Have a look at my page]] 15:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I understood everything you said, but the fact that you said it doesn't make it correct. I do not feel that the negative impact on AR is at all exaggerated and your assessment did not at all reflect my experience in playing with the skill under the circumstances you outlined. I do not know you, and you do not know me and I don't know how that has anything to do with the discussion. I did however go to your page in an effort to understand your pov better..... I think it is noteworthy to mention that in your long list of characters and classes that you play, Paragon is not listed.

I have put the post-nerf AR thru it's paces, it does not work as you suggested, if you like please demonstrate how you came up with your examples. 68.186.244.60 16:57, 16 October 2007 (UTC)Evenhands

Stop throwing insults and NPA-threats at each other, please. Constructive discussion is great, this is not the place for personal wars. - anja   14:03, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

There is another problem here too...even with CA, if there is no monk, what's going to stop 3 P/Mo's in a team with RC as their elite and they just spamming that all the time? It's not like you need a whole lotta points in Protection anyways. Unless ANet then move this to Divine or make the amount of conditions removed dependant on attrib points. I think this is what Y0_ich_halt might have been pointing to. In this case then, AR/CA is almost irrelevant and at the most ANet have nerfed a last good PVE skill. So, AR is still broken and those facing paragons in PVP are going to get no joy at all. --Shaia 16:11, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * again a list of things i gotta say... ok, first, i don't update my pvp slots correctly. i often create a new paragon for another ha match, but then i don't ha for a week or so and delete it again. that's why it's not in the list. you're partly right here, shaia. but what i meant mainly was that -20 armor aren't that terrible. all you need to do is take "shields up!" or one para with enough tactics to make "watch yourself!" last long enough til it recharges (that's the case in most builds, anyway). and about covering: you should have ts and you should call blind. in ts i mean :) then you'll get your rc and the problem is solved, or you stop attacking til it's removed. depending on your team and how many conditions you have, that might take one to five seconds. or maybe your rc is even combined with a draw conditioner? then you're free of it in no time. those 'ways around it' have always been there. - Y0_ ich_halt  [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px|Have a look at my page]] 17:46, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I like the change...
But come on Izzy, you gotta try buffing some of the crap paragon skills... paragons have been nerfed in almost every update, but still have absolutely CRAP skills like "can't touch this", which would be fine if Paragons had 140 skills like Warriors... especially motivation, motivation is HORRIBLE, and giving it some power would be a nice change. Rework how echos (finales) work because they are going to be broken forever in the current condition... make it where "Next time a shout/chant ends on target, target gains X and this echo ends" otherwise it is too abusable (capped gains>>>>>>>uncapped). Then motivation can be buffed so that all of its skills aren't just nerfed versions of "Light of Deliverance"/"Heal Party". That's all. Good, you nerfed a huge part of the brokenness (GFTE/AR), but now Motivation deserves some attention if you ask me. -Rakeman 00:34, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Since you've not read the discussion on motivation, I'll recap it here. Motivation has got to suck or else it will be sorely abused by teams of 8 paragons. If motivation was effective enough to use from one paragon in a balanced team, imagine how utterly invincible it would make a team of 8 paragons? The only way to make motivation feasible is to change the entire attribute line, and since izzy doesn't have enough time to do so, the best we can do it leave it weak. - Auron 06:46, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

That is not a fair recap of the entire discussion. It is a recap of one view expressed during the discussion. There were 3 major viewpoints.

1. As Auron just stated, some people felt that the attribute had to remain extremely weak. The basic reasoning behind this viewpoint was that if it was potent enough to be of truly significant use by a single Paragon, then multiple Paragons chaining it would be overpowered.

2. Some people felt that motivation was fine as it was.

3. Some people, myself included, felt that motivation could either stand some buffing, or remain as is for the individual Paragon and that the multi-Paragon TEAMS should be addressed.

Most of the discussion on this page has centered around that 3rd ideal. What works well for a single Paragon can likely be made to work too well for average players to handle when used by a multi-Paragon group. The two prevailing solutions offered to this are :

1. Continue to nerf the individual Paragon untill the multi-Paragon teams fall into balance.

2. Find a method or mechanic to nerf the multi-Paragon teams by weakening thier synergy with one another without further weakening the class as individuals.

That is enough of a recap, the opions are all expressed in greater depth above. 68.186.244.60 15:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)Evenhands
 * Er, I'm pretty sure my recap was fair. "2. Some people felt that motivation was fine as it was." <- like three people, tops, all without support for their "argument." Opinions are like assholes, y'know? Without anything to support their claim, they might as well have said nothing - and since motivation is obviously not fine, I wasn't going to include their opinion in the recap (it'd be like including the "nerf charm animal" section in a recap of the overpowered ranger skills page).
 * "3. Some people, myself included, felt that motivation could either stand some buffing, or remain as is for the individual Paragon and that the multi-Paragon TEAMS should be addressed." I believe I covered that with "The only way to make motivation feasible is to change the entire attribute line." Please read more carefully before assuming the recap isn't fair. - Auron 23:38, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe that Motivation is currently overly weak. There is a clear difference between finding a fix for multi-Paragon teams and reworking an attribute line. Nothing is needed to substantiate contentness. If you are happy with it as is, that assumes that you feel no change is necessary. It was not a re-cap of what was said, it was a recap of what you said... But I guess that your opinion is that what was said is less important than what you said..... what was it you said about opinions again ? 68.186.244.60 01:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC)Evenhands

This is true. The real problem is with 2 or more paragons in a team. And this really only happens a lot in the PVP aspect of the game. ANet cannot touch Motivation right now unless they make a whole bunch of PVE only skills for the paragon that only the paragon can use. The initial problem with the paragon in PVE was that suddenly there was a large amount of 2ndry paragons that popped up, all spamming the wonderful 'god-mode' PVE skill that ANet blessed the paragon with. It becomes apparent that any new PVE skill ANet considers for the paragon that has anything to do with protection or healing or dmg reduction, is going to have to be tied directly and harshly to the Leadership attribute to prevent abuse of skills by 2ndry paragons. Nothing has actually been fixed with AR/CA, if my reasoning on P/Mo's with RC as their elite in PVP is true...The only thing to come out of this is more frustration and anger for those that try to play the paragon class effectively --Shaia 16:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

This page is filled with failure, and people that fail. 68.35.91.2 02:05, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * And I assume you realize you're on this page now too? Generally, if you can't say anything constructive, it's better not to, but you're entitled to your opinion, and your right to express it. Just remember, everyone else is entitled to disagree if they feel inclined to do so. --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  03:11, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Anyone tried Weapon of Aggression?
P/Rt. Weapon Spell. For 5...13...15 seconds, you attack 25% faster - 10 3/4 10

Just as bad as a shout, it can't be removed either. Wonder if they will CA this as well, lol.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Weapon_of_Aggression

--Shaia 08:27, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Doubt they'll do anything to that, the energy cost and attribute are downside enough. Most melee classes don't need Channeling Magic, and re-casting a 10e spell every 10-15 seconds is rather energy intensive. Compared to Aggressive Refrain, which costs 25e up front, then simply needs shouts and chants ending every so often to keep it active. Use Anthem of Flame, and the energy gained from Leadership makes it free, so this skill is infinitely maintained for free once you get it up, and it's non-removable. When it comes down to it, the CrAr is a fairly effective balance, despite being incredibly annoying to use. --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  09:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Auron Bushi: no not the bull headed *look at my leetnes* Auron who talking his trash above. But wow Izzy Izzy Izzy, what happened man. the answer to this was so frikin obvious.... Make it a STANCE! and make it give u -5 to -10 armor whilst useing it. this makes it Counterable and detrimental to the paragons defence. this cracked armor junk is just plain silly. heck even if the user wanted to get stop using AR he couldnt once the battle starts if there is another pargon or warrior spamming shouts. MAKE AGRESSIVE REFRAIN A STANCE. wild blow, wild strike, wild throw, and mark of insecurity could counter this skill easily. In the end pargons are a fighter class, hence the armour, adrenaline based skills and 2 pips of nrg regen.(IMO wars and paras should at least get 3 pips but that for a dif discussion) and a fighter class needs a attack speed buff, thats NOT elite. attacking is what fighter classes do they should not need an elite to do it well. i stress this again. the weaken armor is a terible constantly reaplying a condition on urself is reduce the effectiveness of support classes whom are charged with removeing it. and like many people mentioned above, it barries other more dangerous conditions under it not only makeing it dificult to remove CA but makeing it impossible to remove every other condition that ally may be suffering from. Make AR a stance and u make vulnerable to the various skills that counter stances thus balanceing the skill. thats the main issues with the paragon skills right no way to counter their effects? So stop makeing the skills so useless that you don't need to counter them and start makeing ways to counter them. you could slap a "and 1 shout" to pretty much and mesmer debuff skill. and do the same to some necro hexes, makeing puting make necros and mesmer the ones who keep fighters in check, like they already are. heck i'd make the same suggestion for Rampage as One. nice how the ranger traditionaly a archer has a skill that helps them use their bow and pet together to deal dmg, but just because it could (and is) be used with a mellee weapon it is must be nerfed to the point that i can only be effectivly be used with a addrenaline powered Melee weapon. realy nice. oh yeah and make AR a stance genius!
 * Just go R/P. This profession can't bypass blocking nor can it block. Obviously Izzy don't want the Paragon for attack nor to be offensive just a screaming speaker and nothing more.--ShadowFog 18:03, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Aggressive buff.
The above comment is very nice. making it a stance without the CA offset would make it very balanced. There are ton't of stance counters. If not stance then enchantment perhaps, again tons of counters. CA is the ultimate shutdown for paragons as if there's another shouter in range you need to pull out of combat so that CA can be removed & your other conditions ( blind the worse of all) can be dealth with. Even if there isn't another shouter CA has to be removed one too many times. Ofc i found a way to overcome it party by using Signet of aggression / For Great justice combo you can have a steady flow of adrenaline ( even easier for shouter paras as they don't need FGJ, i myself being spear spike need it) however you sacrifice attack speed & with it skills like mighty throw & unblockable throw become ineffective. With AR in it's current state Mighty throw & unblockable throw should have their casting times removed. More importantly one proffession should not be nerfed to oblivion becouse of it's Way. 8 paragons are imbalanced yes but so are any other 8 same proffesion teams. 8 Air spikers can deal enough dmg to bring down a warrior with signet of stamina, endure pain & defy pain down in a matter of seconds. Even rangers which have high armor vs elemental dmg have a hard time against Air spike. Let's not forget the good old necros & monks who can spike with armor ignoring dmg ( necros ) & dmg without any specific resistances ( monk's holy). But then again most 8 man teams have their counters people need to brind anti shout skills even if they are too narrow they can bring the entire 8 para team down on it's knees. The answer is make a limited number of the same proffession to join the team. That would effectively kill the proffession Ways.

Why don't they leave the skill as it is now, and give a paragon 100 armor (standard), like on the 1 april joke?
 * He already has 96, isn't that enough? 145.94.74.23 08:18, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

WAIT A SECOND
regardless of what anyone says, this skill still costs 25 FRIKKIN ENERGY. that's often more than half of what a para can get if they're covered in attunement runes, plus they have slow regen. you can get better and less conditional IAS with almost any other profession in the game. 90.194.189.167 14:21, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * lol. - Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 14:52, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "This Echo is reapplied every time a Chant or Shout ends on you." ~ Kurd [[Image:User Kurd sig.png]] 19:31, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "Go for the Eyes!" "Watch Yourself!" - Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 19:51, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Generally this has 2 problems: starting energy cost and cracked armor. Since this is so bothersome in most PvP areas you will end up either taking a friend to help you remove the condition or another skill since you can be stuck in a loop of cracked armor. Why not be independant and take another low cost higher duration IAS?--ShadowFog 04:03, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * because it's easier to take this (especially with more than one paragon) and just have a monk remove cracked if you're under attack? actually, it can be quite helpful as rc feed. - Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 11:57, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, is the same shitty excuse all over when discussing self condition inflicting skills, The Restore Condition argument.--ShadowFog 12:54, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * the point is, why sacrifice tons of flexibility only to avoid cracked armor if it's not even a real problem? - Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt sig.jpg|18px]] 13:01, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Already stated that:Since this is so bothersome in most PvP areas you will end up either taking a friend to help you remove the condition or another skill since you can be stuck in a loop of cracked armor. Thats all, if you cant find a way to get rid of it dont use it, otherwise, use it's infinite duration.--ShadowFog 16:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * still 25 energy. 90.194.189.107 17:59, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

That was your starting statement.--ShadowFog 19:03, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Like I said in a statement above. If you want to attack with the Paragon, go R/P and crank the Expertise. You will be spamming 10 and 5 energy attack skills to your heart content.--ShadowFog 18:05, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Just give it to someone else!
Honestly, AR seems a pretty good skill to me. As a Para you should be shouting regularly and have high leadership and this skill gives you a reason to have both. Yes cracked armor is a pain but you can't expect to maintain a 25% IAS forever without a penalty can you? And while removing the condition is an option why not send it to someone else with Plague Touch, Plague Sending or even Plague Signet for the longest lasting Cracked Armor in the game? You can follow it up with Chest Thumper and cause a deep wound too while you're at it. Thomasuwoo 00:32, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Really Strong Arm
I used to think this was a guy with a big arm. Now I've realised it's a head. Ups.--92.10.202.17 19:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Large skill icons like File:Aggressive Refrain (large).jpg are your friend for that sort of stuff. Except the ones that are suck resizes, or PVE skills ^_^. --Star Weaver 20:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thought it was a torment claw 'til now :P 72.220.22.128 17:34, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

February 2010 "Balance" Changes
PLEASE don't further nerf this skill by removing Cracked Armor from it. -20 Armor is -20 Armor, but a -20 Armor condition can be spread/removed :/ I've yet to see it mess with hero/henchmen AI all that much, and the proposed change from would ruin things like Paragon Contagion builds :( I like being able to spread Cracked Armor / Weakness / Deep Wound :( -24.60.5.94 00:39, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Removing cracked armor was the best solution; it allowed for people to run Paragons without heroes wasting their energy trying to remove Cracked Armor every 3 seconds. The ability for it to be used in hero builds far outweighs the little usage it saw in Contagion PvP. Rikk Panda 07:36, 5 July 2011 (UTC)