Feedback talk:Skill update previews/20110210

Excitement
OMNG OGMG GOMG Reaper of Scythes **  22:47, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
 * OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOM--77.61.129.90 13:36, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOGMGOMOGMOMG--83.82.62.210 14:20, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * OMGOMGOMGOMGOMG... Wait what were we excited about again?69.249.223.63 19:50, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY
 * *clears throat* Yippie. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 02:42, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * W00t! made a dervish just for this :D--Smroz01 19:18, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Linking to the News page
I've added the article, but I'm not really sure how to get it to show up on the News page. If anyone else would like to work their ninja wiki magic, please be my guest. John Stumme 22:53, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It had needed a cache-purge. G R E E N E R  00:25, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Forsaken Insignia
Are these going to be kept the same? These are very rarely used as it is, and it sounds like enchantments will be even more important now. Manifold  23:48, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I suppose Forsaken were supposed to be there for the waiting time between an enchantment's end and the next one's cast. Or maybe to promote an alternative style of play. I agree they need to be changed. And maybe Windwalker too, as those promote lots of enchantments. Maybe something like: Forsaken: +15 armor while not enchanted & +5 armor while enchanted; Windwalker: -5 armor plus + 10 armor for each enchantment (capping at 2). How does it sounds like?
 * Eh, I disagree with that proposed idea. But I do agree that those two insignias need altering. Or at least Windwalker - Forsaken still works, but in the way that gw2 rangers can play without pets (or at least, the condition for that insignia is the same way). Which is probably why the Forsaken insignia would be necessary to keep. Windwalker, however, benefits on multiple enchantments which is not benefited by teardowns. Then again, not every build will be teardown. So they'd both work, to some degree, without alteration. -- Konig / talk 00:33, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I think Forsaken +15 while not enchanted (and nothing more) is fine, for rare/special builds without or at least very few enchantments. For Windwalker I'd suggest some kind of a better 'blessed' insignia, like +10 for 1 and +10 for 2 enchantments. An insignia which provides only +5 armor (in a standard situation) is almost worthless. Furthermore, even with the old enchantment system 'blessed' insignias tended to be better for a dervish than 'windwalker'. Since the update took quite a lot effort (at least it seems so) an update for those two insignias would be the icing on the cake. –aRTy 05:44, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * +1 for keeping Forsaken. It may have some use for non-scythe dervish builds. (Balthasars Aura and Aura Slicer (Melee Attack) says hi.) I'd love to see another few pure melee attacks on dervishs. --178.115.99.89 10:57, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * With the introduction of adrenaline it wouldn't surprise me if Forsaken dervs are expected to see adrenaline skills that don't require enchantments. Forsaken dervs are far more difficult to play because of Mysticism, with them changing it I guess we'll just have to wait and see.  000.00.00.00  22:12, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Scythe damage?
The thing I'm the most curious about is the change to scythes, and how successful the changes will be in making dervishes better with a scythe than assassins and warriors. Most previewed changes are nice, but no details yet about scythes... Erasculio 01:07, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Scythe wars will be sub-optimal because they don't have energy for enchants, which will be more/less requisite for scythes. Sins can't really afford to lose their enchants, either (wotm?  Yeah, okay).  The obvious solution would be to nuke wotm since it's functionally broken, but I suspect they'll lower scythes' max damage or something, instead.  Remember Burst of Aggression?  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  4:54, 11 Feb 2011 (UTC)
 * Based on the preview, most - if not all - scythe attack skills (and other teardown skills) will focus on removing Dervish enchantments. So Assassins wouldn't lose their own enchantments but would need to bring dervish ones. -- Konig / talk 06:03, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well what interrests me more is the AoE damage the dervish now deals with it's attacks and the new flash enchantments. Alot of enchantments of the dervish were designed to deal PBAoE damage, and it seems with their new change they still do. It makes me wonder if the  scythe will still hit multiple targets. If so i expect to see a lot of AoE damage when using flashed attacks. Damysticreaper 12:21, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Since when do scythe wars always use scythe mastery attacks? And I also doubt assassins will be hit that hard. They still have shit like Malicious Strike. Koda [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_Horns1.GIF‎|19px]] 16:38, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * They may not be hit hard unless Mystic Sweep, Eremite's Attack and Wounding Strike get a drastic function change. And both wars and sins fuel themselfs with Aura of Holy Might when they need an enchantment and sometimes Aura of Thorns. What is gonna mek the derv do more damage that sin and war is the enchantment removal wich is basicly something only the dervish can afford due to mysticism. Altough Critical Strikes increases damage and returns energy it will be on a different method than how the dervish now seems to deal damage with it's skills. Sins with scythes just focus on damage from single attack skills and to hit as fast as possible same goes for wars, the dervish now however seems to create teardown combos to deal AoE damage outside the normal 3 target range giving it a greater range of damage but for balance i doubt superior. Dervish doesn't do better damage but different in a more effective method than the warrior and the assassin now can with the scythe. Damysticreaper 15:39, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Power attack. Body blow.--83.82.62.210 16:04, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Crits of over 300 in hard mode trump any secondary aoe effect dervs are liable to get. There also isn't likely to be any room on a pve bar for meaningful combos after the pve skills, attacks, ias and energy management. 24.197.253.243 16:14, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * What I'm wondering is if they're going to change Scythe base damage. We previously saw that they can adjust item stats UP, but not really DOWN since they can't retroactively change non-green weapons (probably due to the way the items are coded). &mdash; User_Poki_sig.png Poki#3  (talk ) 22:14, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Ehm, dude, the attacks ARE GONNA BE the combo.--193.190.172.147 10:50, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, they changed armor into armor with insignias some time back (e.g. I logged in one day with an update and found that my armor had insignias giving it that fancy energy bonus, rather than just the armor itself). I'm pretty sure changing base damage down retroactively wouldn't be harder than changing the very function of an item and how it interacts with other ones, also retroactively. But it's a question of things we don't really know about the GW system. --ஸ Kyoshi [[Image:User_Kyoshi_sig2.png|19px]] 15:02, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Other changes
Are smiting monks and non imbagon paras getting love too or is thi a derv exclusive bild were to expect soon? 74.90.153.162 01:09, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I think those wont be in this round of updates. Though i wouldnt be surprised to see them very soon™ (in the Anet sense of the word), sometime before or soon after embark beach. 131.111.129.154 01:21, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Not before Embark. I can guarantee that. I think it was also said that there won't be another skill balance like this one. The next update is pure dervish, the one after that is the one with Embark Beach. -- Konig / talk 01:32, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Im not expecting a major update personally i just want to be able to run something other than an imbagon t get in groups in pve or roj monk in places where smite might be needed or helpful a little tweak to certain skills would be nice imo74.90.153.162 01:35, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * lol And I would love to see 95% of the newly-made Paragon community running something else other than Imbagon. That meta-build is pure derrogatory towards the Profession. I'd love to see Paragons get love like this. As if the Dervish was in dire need of the update. Maybe there's hope, maybe one day we will see a good update for them. I don't expect it before the Embark update. Ardangoeswiki[[Image:User_Ardangoeswiki_19px-UserArdan_sig.jpg|19px]]
 * They said they're planning on a paragon revamp, but not as extensive as this one. Also planned is a smiting revamp and some other things I can't remember. --ஸ Kyoshi [[Image:User_Kyoshi_sig2.png|19px]] 16:27, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Read this sentence again
Get a few hits in on your foe with holy damage on their lowered armor. < Read again if you dont get it.

Pious Fury. Dervishes with daggers that attack faster with extra damage/conditions. Good game? 99.244.36.101 01:15, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Monk wands don't ignore armor... The current Avatar of Balthazar would be incredibly overpowered if you were fight. Erasculio  01:46, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The holy damage they are referring to is what was once called Light Damage. I still don't get why they changed it, since Light Damage and Holy Damage do not have much in common. Since we're in the feedback namespace, I can also make suggestions, so here's one: Change the name Cold Dmg to Fire Dmg for even more confusion! --numma_cway 02:02, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Aura Slicer causes cracked armor. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  4:50, 11 Feb 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks like someone actually didn't get it :) 99.244.36.101 15:01, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed, it seems you're confused. The "combo" was Aura Slicer —> Heart of Holy Flame —> Pious Fury —> Reap Impurities, with "lowered armor" referring to Aura Slicer's effect, not Heart of Holy Flame's effect.  Unless you were referring to dagger dervs with Aura Slicer?  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  15:19, 11 Feb 2011 (UTC)
 * The reason holy damage was specifically noted is because it's considered neither elemental nor physical, so it's generally calculated against the target's base armor, ignoring profession-specific bonuses. In other words, any profession not holding a shield will take full damage after cracked armor. Daggers don't fit well into this model, however, because their non-armor-ignoring damage is pitiful. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 16:22, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * *points out the obvious* Holy damage ignores armor, so hitting the foe with holy damage on their lowered armor tells you to what extent the developers know about game mechanics and balancing. Armor-ignoring damage on a low armored target matters, right? 99.244.36.101 16:41, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Not all holy damage ignores armor Koda [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_Horns1.GIF‎|19px]] 16:55, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, Lightbringer's Gaze does holy damage, but it's armor abiding. Same with Light of Deldrimor. Hell, some elemental damage is armor ignoring too, like Ancestor's Rage. 76.250.38.1 17:43, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually no holy damage, or any type of damage, ignores armor. Certain skills that cause holy damage also ignore armor. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 20:55, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Wrong. Holy damage is armour ignoring in the sense that it bypasses warriors' inherent +20 vs physical and rangers +30 vs elemental (since when you hit a warrior with a scythe with HoHF up, the warrior counts as having 80 and not 100 AL, since the damage is converted to "generic non-physical", but the calculation for how much the hit is for still goes off the target's armour. I suggest you read up on judge's insight if youre still confused. Potatosoup 21:06, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That's not armor ignoring. That's just the wrong kind of armor defense. -- Konig / talk 21:33, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Most holy damage is "armor-ignoring" in the same sense that piercing damage is armor-ignoring against rangers: not at all. this skill ignores armor, and that is what is meant with "armor-ignoring" here. Koda [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_Horns1.GIF‎|19px]] 21:35, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * So much fail going on here.... 90.206.126.93 12:50, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

[reset indent]

True. The term 'armor-ignoring' has nothing to do with certain defenses or bonuses, armor-ignoring says 'I deal the exact amount of damage stated in the description, no matter what armor there may come'. The problem with holy damage is what numma_cway already pointed out: There are two types, one was called 'light damage' a long time ago. 'Light damage' = non-armor-ignoring holy damage, which is dealt by attacks, like the damage of wands or staves, or the attack damage dealt under the influence of several dervish skills or stuff like Judge's Insight. There are no particular armor bonuses for that type of damage, like there is none for Dark damage. In contrast to that, there is armor-ignoring holy damage dealt by skills (and nothing else). There are a very few skills that deal light damage = non-ignoring holy damage, like Lightbringer's Gaze.

However, as a rule of thumb: Holy damage by skills = armor-ignoring damage. Holy damage attacks = non-ignoring base damage. –aRTy 13:28, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Koda [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_Horns1.GIF‎|19px]] 13:43, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Get posting...
People should go out there and post on the guru/inc forums, there are trillions of threads of people asking for updates that have been accumulating for months. 131.111.129.154 01:23, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * No. Koda [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_Horns1.GIF‎|19px]] 19:28, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Trivia
Are "flash enchantments" referencing the flash mechanic in MtG? That's the first thing I thought of, especially since giving instantly casting enchantments a special spell type wasn't necessary (unless dervishes now have skills that specifically affect flash enchantments). –~=Ϛρѧякγ  (τѧιк)  &larr;&hearts;– 01:44, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Go to google, or any search engine, then search for the definition of "flash". Then come back and read your post. 128.135.88.213 01:48, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Cool story, bro. You do the same. –~=Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png (τѧιк)  &larr;&hearts;– 03:15, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Yea I am going to say that it was probably MtG inspired 74.220.50.81 19:15, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Cards with flash may be played any time their controller could play an instant [card].' Considering the inspiration in that game GW has, it could be possible, since Flash Enchantments can be used any time while moving or attacking. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 16:15, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Common origin. Flashes are fast. Instants are fast. These new enchantments are fast. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 16:55, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Other Flash Enchantments?
Enchantments that increase movement speed were made flash enchantments; many defensive enchantments, especially those that provide a block chance, also became flash enchantments. Will this be applied to other classes' skills as well? (ex. Flame Djinn's Haste and Storm Djinn's Haste) -- Zephyrus Favonius 01:50, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * No. It's a uniqueness to the dervish that it previously lacked. It's like necros and lifestealing, or mesmers and energy drain. -- Konig / talk 01:54, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * To be fair, those are bad examples. Lifesteal isn't unique to necromancers (Ritualists have a few options there), and "energy drain" isn't even a mechanic (drain skills on mesmers are just a combo of energy loss and energy gain, and both of those mechanics appear on a variety of professions).  You would have been better off saying "like glyphs on an elementalist" or something akin to that.  But that's beside the point: skills like Flame Djinn's Haste would be rendered far more useful if they received similar treatment, as they suffer from exactly the same problem (they depend on people being willing to wait until you've finished casting to have their optimal effect).  It seems a bit silly to be essentially saying that waiting on cast time is only a bad thing for a derv, but for everyone else, it's okay for these sorts of proximity skills to be less than useful.  I understand that the idea is that dervishes have to sacrifice DpS when casting such skills, but doesn't this exact same page say that focusing only on the damage is too restrictive of a viewpoint for this profession?  I guess what I'm getting at is "if it's good enough for fixing a less useful set of skills on one profession, why not others too?". --BuildKitten 02:50, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * To be fair, it's an issue only on those which have to chase down their enemies - prime cases being dervish and assassins, however assassins rely less on enchantments. Elementalists do have at least one way to shorten casting time, as do mesmers (who hardly use enchantments), and ritualists hardly use enchantments too. Only profession that would really benefit from Flash Enchantments, outside of literally one or two skills, are monks and assassins. -- Konig / talk 02:59, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The issue with, say, flash Flame Djinn's is that ot does 100 or so damage — shadow walk -> flame djinn's spike would be broken as shit. Flash Burning Speed or flash Storm Djinn's could work, though.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  4:46, 11 Feb 2011 (UTC)
 * The ability to shorten casting times by using other skills is rather irrelevant to the discussion here. The point made is that it makes perfect sense to attach this very handy and interesting mechanic to other skills in other professions, and the general argument against such a thing seems to be "but oh noes, that would make dervishes less unique and valuable".  Which is an extremely silly point of view.  If GW were to release one or two glyph skills for, say, a mesmer to use, it wouldn't suddenly make the elementalist profession completely un-unique and worthless, but the general implication here is that if we extend this flash mechanic just SLIGHTLY in order to buff a few skills that actually need that buff, Dervishes will become weak and puny again.  Mechanics should be applied where they make sense, and on speed-enhancing skills, they DO make sense.  And are hideously under-utilized skills for the very same reasons that dervish is getting flash enchantments.  Any problems that are caused by adding the flash mechanic (such as Flame Djinn becoming an awesome spike) are easily rectified by nerfing the skill's other attributes, anyways. (EDIT: Adjusted tone, hadn't intended to come off like that. >_>) --BuildKitten 01:00, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * So let's say that we made Flame Djinn's a flash enchant, then nerfed its damage so that 4 eles doing Double Dragon -> Flame Djinn's wasn't lolinstagib and WoTA sins couldn't use Flame Djinn's to increase their damage *even more* without sacrificing anything at all (oh, wait; making it flash does that, regardless). We've all of a sudden poured resources into a balanced skill that's in line with the current and future iterations of Fire Magic.  Yeah.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  1:38, 12 Feb 2011 (UTC)
 * Flash Enchantments solve the problem of enemies running away from your PBAoE skills, since you have to stop chasing those enemies to activate the Enchantments. My elementalist could really use that too. PBAoE skills with adjacent range are good when you are being attacked if you are protected against interruptions, but pretty much useless when you are chasing people, even when they are snared and you have IMS, since you must stop to activate them, which gives them enough time to get out of adjacent range. Here are some examples of changes that I think could be done to some elementalist skills to give them Flashes:
 * Burning Speed. Changed to Flash Enchantment.
 * Flame Djinn Haste. Changed to Flash Enchantment.
 * Inferno. Changed to Flash Enchantment. Increased cost to 15 Energy. Increased recharge to 15 seconds. Added effect: (10 seconds) inflicts burning (1...3...3 seconds) to attacking foes.
 * Double Dragon. Changed to Flash Enchantment. Increased cost to 10 Energy. Increased recharge to 20 seconds.
 * Storm Djinn's Haste. Changed to Flash Enchantment. Increased cost to 10 energy. Added end effect: Deals 10...34...40 Lightning damage and knock-down to adjacent foes hexed with Water Magic. (There are no 'storm' djinns, so I based the effect on Storm Jacarandas, which have Lightning Surge)
 * Whirlwind/Teinai's Wind. Changed to Flash Enchantment. Added effect: 50% chance to block for 0..2..3 seconds.
 * Crystal Wave/Teinai's Crystals. Changed to Flash Enchantment. Added 5 seconds duration. Added end effect: inflicts bleeding (5...17...20 seconds) to adjacent foes.
 * Stone Striker. Turned into Flash Enchantment. Added end effect: inflicts cracked armor (5...17...20 seconds) to adjacent foes.
 * Shockwave. Chandged to Flash enchantment, increased recharge to 30 seconds. Changed functionality to: (3 seconds) You move 50% faster. End effect: Deals 15...51...60 earth damage one time to foes in the area. Nearby foes take damage twice and adjacent foes take damage three times. Causes Exhaustion if you are not enchanted.
 * Those would be SO fun to use. Damage could be toned down a bit to compensate less people being able to run away, tough. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 18:01, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You know, there were a lot of decent and fair arguments you might have made, Raine. You instead chose to go with these two:
 * "We can't do that, because it might make Double Dragon elementalist teams almost as overpowered as several other Ele-way teams, such as Searing Flames elementalist teams." (side note: SF teams would still be better, anyways.  Faster recharges and burning damage.)
 * "We can't spend any time fixing near-useless skills on other professions with mechanics adjustments and rebalancing, because this update is all about completely changing the functionality dozens of already halfway decent skills on the Dervish profession."
 * And on top of it, you're using a rather ridiculous and nasty tone. Flame Djinn might not be the easiest to rebalance, but it would definitely benefit from this change, and you're acting like it will ruin everything.  And a lot of other skills could benefit from this, too.  It makes no sense to get so worked up.  Chill, dude.  It's a game.  If you can't state your side in a civil fashion, then let someone else do it for you.  I'm only offering a suggestion, and you're being WAY too defensive. --BuildKitten 20:34, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Way to call the kettle black, yo. Not to mention that you completely ignored her arguments. Anyway, the non-enchantment PBAoE spells would be much better with the flash mechanic (since they are already bad because of range and there's no way to pressure or even really hit a kiting foe), but only if those spells had "This skill is disabled every time you use a skill (1 second)," tacked on to the ends of them. <font color="#0AA">–~=<font color="#0AA">Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png <font color="#0AA">(τѧιк)  &larr;&hearts;– 20:46, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * To be fair, it does say that only one flash enchantment can be used at once (so you can't just pounce through them anyway), but there is nothing wrong with Flame Djinn as it is now. If you're chasing after someone with that in your 60AL, you're just doing it wrong (and now, apparently, asking for ANet to accommodate you doing it wrong). -- ஸ Kyoshi [[Image:User_Kyoshi_sig2.png|19px]] 04:32, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually I read it wrong, but there's a limit in that disabling factor. -- ஸ Kyoshi [[Image:User_Kyoshi_sig2.png|19px]] 04:40, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * tl;dr: the game doesn't need any more damage compression. That's why Pious Assault got wtfnerfed (remember back when it was LOL INSTANT DEEP WOUND?) and why Protector's Strike has conditional bonus damage.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  4:45, 13 Feb 2011 (UTC)
 * Hardly, Sparky. I've been pretty civil so far, actually, I'm just trying to express simple disagreement with points expressed herein.  But I think I'm done arguing.  It's a waste of time, since we're apparently not going to agree on anything.  I still think it would render several skills much more usable in standard play, but if you disagree, that's okay.  We simply disagree whether or not it's "fair" to use this mechanic to make those skills better.  There's no need for comments like "you're doing it wrong" and the like, as above, because they really ARE nothing but insulting me for disagreeing with you.  Ah well.  Have fun! --BuildKitten 21:52, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm insulting nobody, only saying that, generally, playing as an elementalist and chasing after anything confident enough to get in your melee range is a bad idea. -- ஸ Kyoshi [[Image:User_Kyoshi_sig2.png|19px]] 19:47, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Flash Hexes?
Should certain hexes be made into "Flash" as well especially if they already functionally similar to them (such as Asuran Scan)? --Falconeye 05:21, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I think any other hex would be to strong as a flash hex. If the casting time of the scan was actually removed (and not set to zero, like it is now), it would result in a 'flash hex', and I would welcome it. For a single hex the specific term would be kind of superfluous though. –aRTy 05:53, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * imo all the skills with 0 casting time ex. Air of Superiority, Asuran Scan, etc. should have their casting time completely removed. I hate how it halts my running when I cast them :(– User Balistic B d-dark.png<font color="#7777cc">alistic 06:16, 11 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I think there are plenty of skills that could benefit from a removal if casting time while remaining balanced. A few sin hexes, off the top of my head, could use it.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  14:39, 11 Feb 2011 (UTC)

"Flash"
1. Remove the activation time of shit that's already 1⁄4 -3⁄4.

2. Call it "A bigger mechanic change" .

3. Give it a cool sounding name to differ it from enchantments for no apparent reason.

4. Pretend it's revolutionary and interesting.

5. Not a single goddamn profit. "No. It's a uniqueness to the dervish that it previously lacked." lol -<font color="Black">Cursed Angel  <font face="Arial" size="1">11:54, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * TBH, with GW's coding, it may well be a bigger feat than you give them credit for. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  14:35, 11 Feb 2011 (UTC)
 * Bitches gonna bitch, I guess. 76.250.38.1 18:37, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * For now people should take care with what they say, let's see how these flash enchantments work first before rating them. Using an enchantment while moving and attacking has a lot more value to a melee class than you would like to believe. Spells with casting time and aftercast completely stop the dps of the derv wich is far more harmful than it is to a caster class. It being revolutionary, no it is not since there are skills that already do the same. Interresting it is alot. Also if you want some profit from the update go play a derv instead of saying not a goddamn profit. Damysticreaper 19:03, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It's a subtype of enchantments because using a flash disables all of your flashes. As said above, casting times kill melee-ranged characters. Similarly, if Vampiric Touch and Vampiric Bite were flashes with the same recast rate, touch rangers wouldn't be the big jokes they are today. <font color="#0AA">–~=<font color="#0AA">Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png <font color="#0AA">(τѧιк)  &larr;&hearts;– 04:22, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Unlike PBAoE, enemies won' get away from the effects of touches. Once you reach them, they will be touched. But yeah, you will stop walking, like when you stop to attack, just for a longer time, so they'll probably run away after being touched once, unless the touch has something against like, like a knockdown effect. Making 'flash' touches with activation times shorter than 1 second would help there, wouldn't it? Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 15:32, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Aftercast is the killer of spells both touch range and far... 24.197.253.243 16:08, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Being able to cast an enchantment that will fuel a coming attack while you continue to attack or chase down a foe will be extremely useful. Depending on how long it is, the "short period of time" flash enchants are disabled will not make them useless just not spammable and so balanced, afterall with it disabling other flash enchants you can have more powerful effects as their use is limited as with the adren skills. This just makes for more interesting and tactical gameplay, which was ment to be the point of the dervish, juggling enchantments and attacks to get the upper hand in smart creative ways, not just spam spam win!. --Dinsy [[File:User_Ros_Sig.png]] 21:31, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Having the casting problem fixed and balanced it with a disabling function like Shadow Walk but i worry a bit on how long it lasts. Also combined with adrenaline attack (or adrenaline charged flash enchantments) with enchantments that disable eachother can make the time you can pull off a combo quite long or a multi enchantment combo mid combat nearly impossible since you have to wait out the disabling time. It makes me wonder if there is a skill or function that prevent such problems. But if that is not going to be the case the update will be a failure. Damysticreaper 13:32, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Wounding Conditions
Has the dev team compensated for what will likely be a very overpowered combination of Wounding Strike and Reap Impurities? Assuming of course they don't change Wounding strike to adren (please don't for pve?) -- Briar    The Spider  03:04, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * who is to say wonding isn't in the form it is in now? something i think everyone has to remember is we altered over 90% of the Dervish skills in the game so that's about 9 skills that didn't get changed out of 85 (if i did my math right).-[[Image:User_Zesbeer_sig.png|link=User talk:Zesbeer‎]] Zesbeer 03:07, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * WS will require an enchant to be removed to get the dw. 98.207.35.105 03:12, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Wounding Strike will probably still be a spammable condition inflicter, but hopefully they have enough insight to remove DW from the conditions it applies. Just requiring an enchantment removed is not enough, considering how easy enchantments are to cycle. <font color="#0AA">–~=<font color="#0AA">Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png <font color="#0AA">(τѧιк)  &larr;&hearts;– 03:15, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * WS isn't really any more of a problem than Dismember. Chilling was the issue (single second-strongest spike attack ever after Blades of Steel), and it's been nerfed.  It was like a sin being able to unconditionally twisting -> BoS every 10 seconds.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  4:58, 11 Feb 2011 (UTC)
 * That and the spammable healing reduction causes a good amount of pressure. <font color="#0AA">–~=<font color="#0AA">Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png <font color="#0AA">(τѧιк)  &larr;&hearts;– 06:53, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * DW doesn't stick when RC is on the field (LS, not so much). It was only really scary because dervishes could pull ridiculous spikes with 0 midline support via it + Chilling, without sacrificing enchants for Pious Assault (conj ws bars have no throwaway enchants).  Without its amazing followup, WS isn't anything special.  I mean, imagine a BB sin with no BoS: it's pretty meh.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  14:33, 11 Feb 2011 (UTC)
 * Dervishes (and all professions) could do without easy, spammable DW that has no real penalty for missing or being blocked like most skills do. Sure, it's not the killer, but the Chilling spike isn't amazing without the DW from WS, just as (to continue the BB analogy) BoS isn't enough without TF. I prefer to think of WS less like Jack the Ripper and more like Charles Manson. <font color="#0AA">–~=<font color="#0AA">Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png <font color="#0AA">(τѧιк)  &larr;&hearts;– 05:05, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

About editing of this preview
I highly suggest that the original version of this article (available here) was left intact on its page, like would it be published in the Developer updates section of www.guildwars.com. This is an official information from developers, which should be available without any modifications, improvements, grammar corrections, additional links etc. Unfortunately there is no policy in Wiki yet to protect such materials. Of course I'm not against improvements, but they should be performed with the copies (when a reader understands that it's a copy), with derivative works, not with the original one. --Slavic 12:10, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Why? Where is the benefit?  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  14:11, 11 Feb 2011 (UTC)
 * I think what Slavic is trying to say - is we can find out which one of the Dev crewe (who posts the updates)has bad spelling, punctuation or bad grammar and point, laugh and belittle him till he is in tears then suggest a weekly/Monthly prescription of home schooling or private tuition till he can recite his abcs back to front in 25 different languages Belladonna Imperia 14:46, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems like changing the grammar on a page like The North, to me. I'm fine with links, but otherwise it should be verbatim "here's what anet gave to us". <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Neptune.jpg|19px]] 15:32, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The precedent in publishing official releases is to use the sic tag rather than make corrections. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 16:25, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not seeing any wording changes, and we always add wiki formatting to skill previews, dev updates, game updates, etc. If I missed any changes to the actual content, yes, you should revert and throw a sic tag on. - Tanetris 17:46, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Energy?
I know that some skills have been changed to adrenaline skills which will help but the biggest problem is the energy bar on the dervish and the cost of skills such as Avatar of Melandru. If you die twice then an entire skill bar based around an elite that takes over 50% of you energy to cast becomes useless and with little hope of working dp off without using some sort of cons. Hopefully, the adrenaline skills might make the dervish more playable because at the moment the dervish does not have enough energy for a character based on energy skills.

The next over-haul needed is the ranger. I have 5 main builds on my ranger - Barrage, degen, spike, trap and sos. I used to have around 30 builds. Giving back usable corpses to pets for pve would be one step in the right direction, but more useful would be increasing the skill range of interupts and reducing the 'casting' time to put rangers back on par with mesmers, increasing the time of preparations, and increasing the skill range of aoe skills - either by increasing their potency or reducing the scatter tendency and adding more variations of aoe (maybe a new flaming arrow that causes fire at its target's location, an ice arrow that causes freeze, an exploding arrow that causes knock down and cracked armor, a booming arrow that causes cracked armor, stun, and deafness that prevents shouts etc. etc.). Giving comparable skills to the ranger that the assassin has - a ranger has a lot of different blocking skills but they add up to nothing compared to shadow form. A step in the right direction would be to increase the time of stances in pve and decrease the casting time of troll, adding a stance that defends against spells would be useful.
 * Ahahahaha 6/10, good troll you made me laugh but it was way too obvious. Only newbies know nothing about energy staffs to counter DP. and Ice Arrows, Exploding Arrows and BOOMING arrows. AAHAHAHAH. Funny.--83.82.62.210 19:35, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * What they really ought to do quite frankly is; overhaul the ranger pet system not the attacks nor the energy management(expertise). Making pets more reliable, versatile, and easier to use in every day play. 108.75.73.62 19:19, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Let's please try to keep this on the topic of the dervish update preview. <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Neptune.jpg|19px]] 19:24, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Next up are the non imbagon and the smiter. After that the ele would use some attention since it's starting to lose out in terms of damage big time, especially now the dervish is going to receive such a damage buff. Back to the topic, adrenaline attack skills would solve the 15-20 energy 2 skill combos and letting Mysticism do it's job properly. What i do worry about is the rate of adrenaline gain on the scythe, let's hope the live team will have thought of that as well. Damysticreaper 19:58, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed, given the attack speed of a scythe, it would become almost imperatively needed to have an increased attack speed if they were to make scythe attack take over around 4 adrenaline. the problem is, you would need to maintain IAS, which would put a drain on energy, and therefore possibly counteract the energy saved by using adrenaline based attacks. ~Reez 16:17, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, really? &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  16:29, 13 Feb 2011 (UTC)
 * Touche. I guess this means we get a warrior with four pips of regen. Plus, I would assume hitting multiple foes with a scythe would give more adrenaline. ~ Reez 22:39, 14 February 3011 (UTC)
 * Hammer has adrenaline gain covered with skills like Enraged Smash, Mokele Smash and Enraging Charge, as with energy managment with Auspicious Blow. Since the hammer is also focused around KD increasing their adrenaline and energy managment would make the hammer too strong and imbalanced, so it doesn't need a buff to such and extend. So far the scythe has been for AoE damage with some basic condition spreading. Altough now the focus seems to be more on AoE condition spreading combining energy and adrenaline into a combo. Energy hasn't been too much of a problem for the derv but managing energy and adrenaline both at the same time as it is needed now i still have some doubts about it. Taking multiple skill to manage both seperatly is something i am not looking forward to so i hope the live team has that covered trough mysticism. Damysticreaper 13:20, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I do not like this
I especially do not like the changes to Aura Slicer. Requiring adrenaline totally messes up the whole advantage that dervishes have over warriors. It makes dervishes a sort of half-warrior class. The cracked armour is scant recompense for now having to pretend you are a warrior. It seems as if ANet has just been listening to 'I have to bash it with a sword' types who can't manage enchantments and then scream 'unfair'. As for the rest, well, I'm just too angry right now to say more. --La Visiteuse 19:39, 11 February 2011 (UTC)


 * How nice of the moderator to move the discussion so that it is out of sight and out of mind. How very democratic, how very dedicated to free speech.  If I had been singing the praises of ANet's changes, I doubt this would have happened.  --La Visiteuse 10:36, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Not a democracy. Oh yeah, And it actually would have. Guarantee it. -- Briar  User Briar Sig 3.jpg  The Spider  10:40, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * it was more the fact that the discussion was getting to long, and was more fitting for your user page seeing as you made the comment. it is very common practice on wiki's-[[Image:User_Zesbeer_sig.png|link=User talk:Zesbeer‎]] Zesbeer 10:44, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

So Anet...
7 hero parties anytime soon? Waar Kijk Je Naar 20:01, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That'll be part of the Embark Beach build. The update that comes after the Dervish update. -- Konig / talk 20:09, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Cant say im mad about being able to eliminate the need for human players, but with GW2 looming and so many people leaving the game, i suspect many people are already running with 3 heroes and 4 henchmen... So i guess it wouldnt change anything in that respect. Potatosoup 23:22, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It will change rather much though. Henchies tends to be rather bad in most situations, and even impossible to bring in others, it that respect this sure will make a difference :)--Lordkrall 00:50, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm one of the players who plays mostly with 3 heroes and 4 henchmen. Infact I did Leg. Vanquisher and Guardian with H&H. Henchmen are a real pain sometimes. Also it's hard to find a proper UW/FoW group that isn't a SC or infested with people who bring both Frenzy and Heal Sig. Waar Kijk Je Naar User_Waar_Kijk_Je_Naar_sig.png 07:06, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You will always be better with humans players. Human players have (usually) PvE skills and more brains (also usually). Many missions are way easier with a party of human players. Examples? Anything that requires proper positioning (they don't really know how to use walls to their advantage, or quickly avoid AoE multi-hits before the first hits, anything that requires splitting (Eternal Grove is a pain with heroes no matter what you do), anything that requires holding back on using skills or using them only against certain other skills (for example, when there will be Monster Skill Hexes, Revealed hex and Inspired hex can be used to remove them very quickly, but heroes will use them against any hex instead saving them for the monster skill hexes). I've been making ZMissions every day, and I never have problems to find parties, and very rarely I find a bunch of useless idiots with no idea of what they are doing whatsoever. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 15:12, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * End of the day allowing full hero parties will not stop you playing with ppl, i will still be playing with my guild the only difference will be the things i would normally be H/Hing i will now be just doing with heroes.--Dinsy [[File:User_Ros_Sig.png]] 17:36, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Lyssa's Haste
Please don't change the functionality of Lyssa's Haste. Most newbie dervishes don't understand how to use it or how valuable it is in providing energy. With 12 Wind Prayers and 9 Mysticism, you get a theoretical 13 energy gain for 70 Health loss with 25% IMS. This is similar to the necromancer's Offering of Blood.
 * I think the derv will be needing it as energy managment anymore, and it's new function seems very interresting to play with. Altough it's current function is nice for energy and the degen can be negated with Vow of Piety its new function is better if you ask me. Damysticreaper 15:22, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Right now, it's very nice for maintaining Mirage Cloak. With permablock, I am dominating against a lot of types of warriors, assassins, and even rangers. It also helps when chasing down kiters as I get extra energy for attack skills, with a negligible damage that I could counter with Mystic Regeneration.
 * It smells of deadly paradox to me. Call me optimistic, but there *might* be a prema dervish on the horizon. Potatosoup 01:04, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Not much to go off of here
Only 1 Elite in this preview and no clear explanation of how the dervish manages energy now. The article implies cheaper costs for skills but that raises 2 more potential problems: Warriors will benefit as just much; or maybe even more from Anet making these skills cheaper & adren based. Or the other option, the Dervish is being given Expertise which has never NOT been problematic also. This does however give us a good idea of how the playstyle is being streamlined but it's not much different from the warrior except that the warrior doesn't have a limit in the number of shouts he can stack. Flash Enchants don't stack, they are basically an extra stance that you can't activate while in VoS (if it helps to visualize the concern here) ...that will also be punished a lot more since the Dervish has no means of preventing stripping when outnumbered by casters. The interrupt concept is an interesting one, but again; not much to go off here on whether we'll be able to make that a real playstyle or if it will even be as useful as Disrupting chops/stab is. ON THE OTHER HAND: Stumme was implicit that we'd need to see the whole package all at once to really gauge it therefore any concerns raised here are subject to being ignored completely. That does not mean our discussions of them are invalid however, it just means that we're only getting a small corner of the total picture. If any one thing is to be blamed here, then it would be the size of the update itself and there's been better places to discuss that tangent so let's avoid it here. TK members and friends of TK members, plz be patient with those of us who do not have that total picture, and leave us to our concerns. -- ilr  00:54, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * What a treat, that post. Thank you. More constructive and reasonable conjecture, less trolling please, internet. Potatosoup 01:00, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


 * You say that dervishes won't have any way to prevent their enchantments from being stripped – so what? Would a monk be ruined if their Life Sheath gets stripped? What makes you think that flash enchantments don't stack when ? Like you said, we won't know how any of these will actually work into the game, considering they are part of a basically new profession. <font color="#0AA">–~=<font color="#0AA">Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png <font color="#0AA">(τѧιк)  &larr;&hearts;– 02:23, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Expertise is only really problematic because (1) rangers aren't really viable with less than 13 expertise and (2) expertise affects non-ranger skills. Consider Fast Casting and Divine Favor: both are reasonable with only moderate investment and both are only applied to primary skills; neither are problematic.  I expect Mysticism to work well, too, though it has an Expertise-like aspect.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  4:36, 13 Feb 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh goody ... cuz I'm pretty much already locked into specific Myst req's on most of my support builds. Usually 13 on my running, 16 on backline builds, & atleast 10 on some farming crap and that's just for a primary attrib that everyone else already considers useless for everything but the skills tied to it.  But thank you for clarifying it's *some* kind of cost reduction attribute, that's slightly better than just handing W/D's the keys to the rest of our skills. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 07:46, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed, gimmicks that exploit mysticism require high mysticism. Normal builds go down to about 9 (8+1) mysticism, which isn't really tying up att points.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  16:34, 13 Feb 2011 (UTC)


 * One might hope that it somehow affects attack speed, as to not make scythe sins still indefinately better. Of course, that would still result in horrible balance issues and will never happen. Perhaps reduced recharge for enchants to counteract enchantment removal as well as reduced cost? Then it would need to be exclusively dervish enchantments that benefit, as to not give birth to a perma-derv. Though in truth, a perma derv might (almost) level dervs with sins. We'll simply have to wait and see. ~ Reez 08:27, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well that kinda goes back to that other point that was raised... isn't that exactly what makes Deadly Paradox and Glyph kinda game-breaking skills?  Not that I'm implying the new Fast Casting is (except when it comes to certain high level Mesmer Mobs *cough*whitemantle*cough*)...  -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 21:31, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Energy management gets 'fixed' by turning Mysticism into a form of Expertise but far more specific... you know, only affecting Dervish enchantments, as opposed to Expertise affecting skills from other professions, which I always thought was overdoing it.
 * One of the things that gets me is this line: "With an improved emphasis on condition-inflicting skills, we intend for the Dervish to become more about applying consistent pressure to multiple targets and less focused on high damage to single targets."  Isn't that what the Dervish is used for now in things like PvP?  I mean, PvX only lists ye old typical WS build as anything worth running in PvP for a Dervish.
 * Conditions in PvE are all well and good but brute force tactics win out over condition tactics. I'd rather kill a HM mob in 10-15 seconds with spike aoe on balled targets than waiting for conditions and adrenaline to build up. "While we know that many Dervish builds tend to focus only on damage, we feel this is a restricted way to play. It makes the Dervish a very boring character and significantly contributes to why other professions are considered stronger with a scythe than the Dervish. By emphasizing other elements of play, the Dervish becomes a more versatile and interesting character in many areas of the game. "  I'm sorry but standing around spreading cooties isn't a fun or interesting way to play.
 * The two uber positive thing to all this (screw the adrenaline etc) is the teardowns effecting only Dervish enchantments, part of the reason I didn't take derv henchmen was generally cos of Signet of Pious Light as they could often strip the wrong enchantment. The second being that the primary will benefit the Dervish as oppose to allowing problems by affecting other enchantments from different professions.  There's no good reason for Expertise, for example, to effect skills outside of the Ranger lines so I'm happy that they're not making the same design mistake with the new Myst.  <font color="Black">000.00.00.00  09:59, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Possibly a bigger issue... If all your focus is on PbAoE DPS, yet you lack the Mechanical advantage of pulling Mobs INTO YOU (like a gravity well) and you totally lack the immunity to Spells that would grant you the survival needed to slowly dole out all those conditions... then aren't you just a slower version of an Ele who's already facing constant uphill battles against any mobs with 100-120 A_L (Armor)? ...Dervs don't even get equal access to the GOOD conditions like Dazing and Blindness, plus Sins and Mesmers are already "tits" at spreading those conditions even better than a Ranger can.  Why would anyone pick Ebon/Dust over Unseen Fury??  Even dazing is looking a bit Gimp now compared to Shroud of Silence 2.0. ...not that we can even expect to get  Daze infliction  -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 04:22, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If there's not much to go off here, then I'd refrain from contradicting yourself by making assumptions that far forward. --ஸ Kyoshi [[Image:User_Kyoshi_sig2.png|19px]] 04:40, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Why bother?
I mean, GW2 is right around the corner. Without Dervishes in there, why is this necessary? Sure, I understand that they're supporting GW1 after 2's release, but this seems like such a huge change to a game that's destined to downsize a lot. I always welcome balancing, but this is just a weird decision. -- Alce    What's today's Build?  18:00, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Essentially it gave them six months in which they could do nothing and point to the horizon. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 18:13, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * six months? --User The Holy Dragons sig.png The Holy Dragons 18:20, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

How do you know there won't be a Dervish profession or Dervish-like profession in GW2? At this point it is still possible. Also, the Dervish has not had an overhaul since NF was released, it was long overdue, regardless of the fact that GW2 is nearing completion. Bambeastie 13 February 2011
 * It's an assumption. No talk of scythes have been made, and they'd have said warriors or guardians could wield them if there were going to have them since they've said daggers are included. Saying daggers are there added a lot of likelihood to there being an assassin in the game. If they said one unrevealed class' main weapon is in the game, there's more reason to assume that they'd mention scythes if dervishes were a planned profession. Believe me, I'd be fine if rangers were the only things with daggers, but that's very unlikely - especially with Miku and the Canthan stuff coming up. Chances are good that the guardians were a merge of warriors, paragons, and dervishes, and this update to bring adrenalin into the class kind of works towards getting people ready for the switch. -- Alce [[Image:User_Alce_infobox.png|18px]]   What's today's Build?  19:09, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't understand why the dervish's presence in GW2 should have anything to do with reworking a class that needs reworking. <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Neptune.jpg|19px]] 19:25, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Just seems like a little bit of a wasted effort, if not at least a weird one. It's like polishing up a pair of shoes that you've outgrown. At this point in the game, they're focusing a lot on how GW1 will integrate into GW2, so it just strikes me as odd that they'd put energy (or adrenalin as the case may be) into this change. -- Alce [[Image:User_Alce_infobox.png|18px]]   What's today's Build?  19:34, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Manifold, gw2 has nothing to do with it. Why not make this game as good as you can? If this game has a problem better to fix it than to just forget about it because a new ones coming out, there will probably be a few of people that aren't going to play on gw2, for whatever reasons. J new 19:43, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, who in the world really believes that GW2 is "Right around the corner"? I don't think we will see beta before Christmas at the earliest, with full release sometime in 2012. I personally would much rather have a better Guild Wars to play for that year. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]]  talk  19:53, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You got it right, another big list of crazy buffs that'll take <time until people unwillingly deal with it> til they're toned down will ultimately make guildwars a better game. And don't you try ruin my optimism, gw2 is right around the corner! -<font color="Black">Cursed Angel File-User Cursed Angel Signature3.jpg <font face="Arial" size="1">20:36, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I used to believe it was right around the corner ... then the new Corp Projections came out this week ...and ...ugh... I've been sitting around eating a lot chocolate since then. It might even be time to watch the Princess Bride again.  Needless to say I wouldn't complain if the Dervish suddenly felt like a whole new class since there's so much time to fill now.  -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 21:51, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

WAY WAY WAY Overdone
What the HELL are they thinking?!? In order to fix something that's broken, you make small changes over time, monitor what those changes effect, and make more </b>small</b> changes. You don't throw the entire thing away and start over!!!

Dervishes were never that broken; they simply needed a little more attention than most classes in order to function properly. I'm not sure what they were addressing w/ this completely insane list of changes, but it's too many of them, all at once, to address... well, anything.

On top of that, they basically spent 10 months (yes, 10 FREAKING MONTHS!!!) reworking a class that still has quite of versatility, when they should have been spending it fixing paragons, a class that they broke (badly) and promised to fix right after they over-buffed mesmers. Have you tried running any build in a party aside from imbagon? ...or did you get kicked as soon as they saw anything in the Motivation line? ...or saw that "Save Yourselves!" wasn't on your bar? Try it sometime. You've been warned.

Even more important than that, though, is the continued abuse of hexes in all aspects of the game. Hex removal is simply too underpowered at the moment, especially when you look at a stack of hexes 2- and 3-rows-deep in PvP, and you're the poor bastard who has to strip them in order to continue doing your job. How much more do we have to complain in order to get someone to pay attention to hex abuse?

Wake the hell up, ANet. You threw the kitchen sink at the wrong problem.<font family="Cambria" color="green">Ash <font family="Cambria" color="green">Dragonshadow  21:14, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Tell me more about this "versatility". I see dervishes only performing mediocre at doing big damage and downright terrible at everything else. They have nearly no support skills. They have a ton of skills for healing others, but they all suck. Since Obsi Flesh was nerfed, dervs are outperformed as tanks as well. To sum things up: there is no reason to take a dervish when you can take something that does the job far better. <font color="Black">Koda [[Image:User_Koda_Kumi_Horns1.GIF‎|19px]] 21:50, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * There's no reason not to take a dervish. I'm not sure what you're doing with your dervish, but apparently you're not doing enough with it to see my point. I can tank, run, heal, etc. quite nicely with my derv... better than many warriors I've seen.
 * There are plenty of reasons not to take a non-imba paragon. That's the class that should have been fixed.<font family="Cambria" color="green">Ash <font family="Cambria" color="green">Dragonshadow  22:17, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * SY! being overpowered is more of a Warrior issue than a Paragon one. ...and there's nothing preventing a Dervish team from running it too. There's also been plenty of suggestions in the proper feedback space to fix it including one I made.  But it looks like the live team has other priorities.   Now I dunno about you, but I never run it on my Para.  Though I have had an ongoing battle with the dynamics of the paragon (click my talk page for more details) -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 22:45, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Not really. Sure, we would have appreciated having actual skill updates over the past 10 months (instead of tweaks from the mesmer update and some random crap for pvp), but it would not have been wiser. Large scale balance updates are never a good thing to do over time, particularly when the devs have big ideas which they clearly did here. Now, excuse me for a moment as I use WoW as an example, but its updates are more like this (large with a lot of time between them) and every one of their version updates seems to change the entire way the game works. In several of WoW's updates they completely changed how caster's mana was maintained; last WoW update I looked at it was forcing spirit's importance on everyone. For some classes this was a awful and terrible change, while others were relatively satisfied, but all together it was balanced. If they had released it in smaller pieces, be it by class or talent trees or whatever other division they could possibly do, it would have instead made the mechanics extremely unstable during the slow (and painful) transition and many of the classes would see exclusion from raid time, particularly in varying healers which always have a lot of pressure to either be the currently best performing class or get benched. And its not that different here; imagine if they had updated and given us all the scythe changes before the avatar updates or the flash enchantments or mysticism... You may disagree with the changes themselves, but it is game balance fact that it is easier to balance in bulk where you have all you need to work with available then in small pieces over time and can release it all at once so that new changes and old content do not create an unstable (and potentially highly unbalanced) interim. Small changes are better left to non-balance issues, such as bugs, graphics, and quests, or things that desperately need a fast fix (pvp skill changes). As for observation of how changes work out, that's what test servers are for. Not your live game servers. Lillium 03:16, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Before this wanders too far off into the realm of off-topic, I'll reiterate my points:
 * a.)Too many changes to the dervish. Small changes over time would have been a wiser course.
 * b.)The changes were unnecessary, since dervs work better than people suspect.
 * c.)The time and effort put into this update would have been better spent on fixing paragons and hex removal.
 * Thank you. <font family="Cambria" color="green">Ash <font family="Cambria" color="green">Dragonshadow  00:51, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That actually seems more offtopic to me than running a Derv team with SY! (yeah my guild did that once in UW). ...just like these other topics about giving other classes Flash Enchants, discussing Scythe damage in general, or talking about Rangers next when this hasn't even shipped yet. Paras might be gimpy but they're already very unique.  You can't say that about a Dervish... it's just another melee class rehash that fails at casting as well as an Ele or Mesmer and can't keep other players alive or rez them again once they're dead.  It needed a much more fundamental Mechanical overhaul in what it excelled at just to give it a different flavor from the other melees & PbAoE builds.  -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 01:26, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * "Small changes over time would have been a wiser course."
 * "WoW example"...<--kill it /w fire plz -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 04:43, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Should have just made the number of scythe attacks depend on the Mysticism attribute and have released it 10 months ago. 216.195.26.128 15:31, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You do realize scythes weren't the only issue, right? -- ஸ Kyoshi [[Image:User_Kyoshi_sig2.png|19px]] 17:54, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Question: Reaping Impurities

 * Scythe Attack. Deals bonus damage. Removes a condition from each foe you hit. If a condition is removed, all other foes adjacent to that foe take holy damage.

In PvE with balling the scythe hits 3 targets with conditions, removes a condition on all and bonus splashes the two beside the one hit. So the holy effect is like a minor version of Splinter Weapon? 203.118.173.100 08:59, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Im gonna lol if it turns into a melee attack. Yay for more manly spiking!--83.82.62.210 09:56, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Adrenaline
To be honest the fact we now get adrenaline has blown my mind, i've spent a fair bit getting my armour sets so that I have anough HP/Energy for pvp/pve etc etc. I'm guessing we'll only need about 25 energy now for any build pretty much? Loving the changes to the forms however, been the biggest flaw in my opinion that dervs were not able to keep forms permanent in PvP, or having to waste a skill slot to keep it up in PvE, now I can chuck in IMTS in there instead of eternal aura <3 Lastly I'm hoping to see dervs used in PvE SC more often now, as my derv being my main it was a disappointment that it isn't needed in your standard SCs.
 * Dervs will not be a part of any SC until they develop one of 2 things the first is an ability to use their own weapons better than... well... almost every other class in the game. The second is permanent maintainable invincibility from spells. -- Briar  User Briar Sig 3.jpg  The Spider  13:47, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

I suppose you're right, I'm crossing my fingers for one of the avatars to fulfill one of the things you just mentioned. ;) --DeathsSon 14:00, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That would be... god so wonderful... I shall pray. -- Briar  User Briar Sig 3.jpg  The Spider  14:02, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Regarding the topic itself... what's is the point of now?  -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 22:07, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Probably something like a boost of energy or adrenaline. <font color="Black">000.00.00.00 22:29, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * NOTHING! Buahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  22:29, 14 Feb 2011 (UTC)
 * Lies! Other classes can use it to maintain forms! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (yes this is a joke)... actually, it could somehow help a build with quickly recharging flash enchants, I guess, given the universal whatever second disable... So yeah, still pretty useless ~ Reez 22:43, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Crazy idea, I know, but maybe it was one of the 90% of skills that were changed. -- ஸ Kyoshi [[Image:User_Kyoshi_sig2.png|19px]] 23:48, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * @kyoshi MAYBE.-[[Image:User_Zesbeer_sig.png|link=User talk:Zesbeer‎]] Zesbeer 00:10, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Dervishes
My initial impressions from the posting is positive. I think this will allow combo-flexibility in a way that GW has never before represented (since usually combos are very one-dimensional in their usage and application). I suspect the AI will handle its options poorly however. If allowances aren't made, I fully expect AI-controlled dervishes to be shedding the wrong enchantments with their pious effects. 169.226.47.115 21:16, 14 February 2011 (UTC)Corina Fatali

I never noticed dervishes being underpowered to begin with. Has always been my favorite class and I hope this update doesn't change the parts of dervishes that I enjoy the most QuePedito 06:18, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

The Actual Update
When are we most likely to actually get it? This thursday or the following thursday a few days before MaT? 82.22.107.194 10:27, 15 February 2011 (UTC) -> No.-- Briar    The Spider  02:55, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe there's no confirmed release date, not even a hint. But I'd estimate the update to arrive on any thursday in the next 3 weeks. --78.92.0.220 15:03, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Much like the Mesmer's Update which came almost a month after it's preview i think you should expect the same from the dervish update however it would be nice if it came this week or the next week :). Kingmor 15:10, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * As has already been mentioned in a previous post on this page (please make sure to read the posts next time, so you don't ask something that's already been asked) there is no confirmed release date, but there IS a hint. The dervish update will happen this month, followed by the Embark Beach update, also this month. --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19px]] 20:54, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * John Stumme said on his page that there will be 2 MAJOR updates in February. Since there has been no updates so far(other than the mAT which is nothing MAJOR), and we are on the 17th(Thursday), and there is only 1 more Thursday in February(24th), the Dervish update will occur on the 17th(today) and the other update will occur on the 24th(we dont know yet what it is) if everything goes "according to plan". But of course, knowing ANet, things probably got delayed(additional bug that they did not "forsee", test server "crashed", "blackout" at ANet HQ, "we program with our monitor off so it cant be perfect", "we never promised it anyway", the usual "excuses") and will arrive late as usual. Expect everything in late April 2012. 99.244.36.101 07:48, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * But coding with the monitor off is how you use teh FOCE! -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 08:15, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * My guess is no one plays dervish or they would not have gone to so much trouble to wreck a class. totally screw up every skill that I found useful.  guess I will just play something other than dervish.......thanks for nothing.  skill updates.....no just ruined another class.  talk about nerfed to hell and worthless. before anyone asks lyssas assault (no e mgmt, and zealous does not make up for this) useless, sandshards worthless (no longer AOE, wonder if they changed the monster skill), chilling victory no longer useable (back to adrenaline does not work on derv), and what the were they thinking with eternal aura, if I wanted to be a monk I would play a monk.  oh and now with the lowered armor on balthazar no survivability, I might as well play a warrior with no armor (about the same effect).  for me it is just another typical maove that goes out of their way to make a class absolutely not worth playing.  IMO dervs useless in pvp  and now almost just as useless in pve.......oh yeah now that I have to carry a speed skill = not enough damage based skill to kill.  now i have to deal with e management and find a way to build adrenaline(balthazar did not fix this BTW), that does not work either.  all my derv heroes are dead so fast that I cant use them. I always cringe when they talk about skill "updates" or more to the point NERFS --The preceding a very unhappy GW player comment was added by 96.226.234.22 (talk).
 * "Dervs useless in PvP"
 * Nerf? You jest, sir. Most people love the update. And my dervish heroes are finally actually useful. I did yesterday's ZM with a team of four Dervishes once you for the sake of it, and not even once our HPs went under 50%. I think they are now the profession with the lowest ratio of skills no one really uses compared with their number of total skills, in the whole game. BEfore the update, people used just about 15 Dervish skills all the time, and that was it. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 12:38, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * 15 is a gross exaggeration. Still, even with the update, it's already becoming apparent that some builds are just the hands-down best.  Pretty soon, the rest will be weeded out.  &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  14:35, 24 Feb 2011 (UTC)
 * Yet they are much more versatile. Area with heavy conditions? Avatar of Melandru and Grenth's Fingers. Area with almost constant disease spreading? Avatar of Grenth and Mystic Corruption. Domain of Pain? No problem! There are plenty of ways to get some self and party healing,like Avatar of Dwayna. If people stick with a single build in PvE, they'll be losing all of that. Changing builds constantly is way more fun. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 16:17, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The high end players don't derive fun from playing with sub-par builds. Pet rangers can definitely be fun, too - but they're complete trash and everyone knows it. Dervs are slightly more viable than they were before - which isn't saying much given their single skillbar in the past - but how often do the majority of PvErs swap bars between missions? Even then, is it not more effective to bring the best "killing shit" bar available to the dervish and simply change the monk bars around to account for increased hexes or conditions brought by monsters?
 * Avatar of Melandru does create a condition-resistant Dervish - but the prot hero could simply bring RC and the derv could bring a damage elite and shit would die faster. It's nice in theory, and mels might be nice in PvP (it was godmode a few years ago, hence the heavy nerfs), but I still don't see it being remotely viable for PvE content. - Auron 17:33, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * so much effing ^This^ -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 22:53, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Lyssas Haste = OP
I do like the change to Lyssas Haste but that skill would still be kinda op in PvP. It looks like that both interrupts (the one at the beginning and the another one at the end) are unconditional and the possibility to immediately cast that skill make it the fastest unconditional non-pve-interrupt-skill in the whole game. My suggestion is to just implement a casting time of either 1⁄4 or 3⁄4 for a PvP-version of Lyssas Haste.--Ra 16:50, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You do know that 'OP' depends on energycost, recast, range and such things right? Right now we don't know any of those specific things or if this ting gets any restrictions in PvP or not. Lou Wolfskin 17:31, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The range is adjacent as already mentioned and the energy cost may be appropriate because of Mysticism. If this skill would have a low recharge then it would be totally op together with the immediate cast. However I know that nothing is set in stone now but I just wanted to point out its high potential of probably being OP.--Ra 17:47, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * They can't be used while activating other skills, so (presumably) if you're using an attack skill you'll have to stop to use it. Also yeah, you can't cry OP when you don't even have numerical stats yet, but it's only adjacent range at this point. -- ஸ Kyoshi [[Image:User_Kyoshi_sig2.png|19px]] 17:50, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It won't be the numerical stats which will annoy me. It'll be the immediate cast without any aftercast and that skill could be used by any other class without even investing any point in Wind Prayers.--Ra 17:58, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Also how you can use it with Pious Fury for another instant cast AoE interrupt and since you can activate stances even when KDed that makes it even scarier. Racthoh 19:02, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * And if, for example it has a 30 second recharge, that combo is no worse than any other pair of interrupts except that they cast instantly. Oh, and you have to be adjacent, and any half-decent player will kite you long enough for your 70AL to get its ass spiked (or in CMs, long enough to lead you into a group of NPCs which will spike your ass for them). And in PvE it's outclassed easily by Panic or even Psychic Instability.
 * Balanced correctly it will be little more than an (avoidable) annoyance, like Power Drain and Leech Signet but with adjacent range (and no energy gain). -- ஸ Kyoshi [[Image:User_Kyoshi_sig2.png|19px]] 20:07, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You've got a point there, but I doubt that the recharge of that skill will be greater than 20 seconds. And we still don't know anything about the movement-control of the derwish (it's very likely that IMS-skills and Crippling Sweep and all other skills which cause cripple will see a buff). As mentioned above, my intention was just to express that that skill can become overpowered in PvP. Nothing more and nothing less.--Ra 20:32, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Depends on the format. FA & AB, maybe.  GvG?  LoooooooL...  I've actually watched good players run them in GvG after Wars got their Buffs and it was never NOT a depressing disappointment. (even when their team won).  And right here in the preview is a big fat disclaimer telling us "there might be some PvP splits"... *ominous laughter*.  -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 21:13, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Condition Spreading?
In the article, they said "With an improved emphasis on condition-inflicting skills, we intend for the Dervish to become more about applying consistent pressure to multiple targets and less focused on high damage to single targets"

Am I the only one who sees this as an Extremely Bad Idea?

In PVP, conditions are usually a poor choice compared to hexes, and can be spread more efficiently with a bow or spear anyway. If the conditions are spread with a scythe it's even worse; no reasonably competent team of players would allow a dervish to hit more than one of them with a given scythe swing. You would therefore need to target swap rapidly, through snares and avoiding overextending, all with poor AL. For spreading conditions in PVP, casters, spears and bows are all much better options.

In PVE, so many of the enemies you face are immune to multiple conditions that it's often not even worth using them in the first place. As usual, hexes are more reliable and harder to remove, and their effects are often better anyways.

In my opinion, dervishes NEED to be able to spike. It's their compensation for being so vulnerable to heavy enchantment stripping (gaze of contempt and rend both come to mind), dazed, blindness and snaring all at once.

As far as assassins being better with scythes, this seems to be mostly in PVE, where they get Heart of Fury 2.0 (aka critical agility). Of course, it doesn't help that scythes seem designed with critical strikes in mind, due to their high maximum and low minimum damage.

I like a lot of the things they mentioned here, but changing dervishes from primarily spike to primarily condition pressuring is a horrible idea.--108.23.64.23 04:45, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * There are a few enemies immune to burning and a number of non-fleshy creatures, but I wouldn't call it "so many" by any means. Besides, I doubt the dervish would get poison or disease, they will probably continue to have several bleeding skills, though, which shouldn't be too much of a problem to avoid in non-fleshy-heavy-areas. <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Neptune.jpg|19px]] 05:11, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * My problem is with the vague 'less focused on...' wording. If they mean that dervishes will give up some of their damage in order to get skills that apply burning and bleeding, then I have a problem the update. If instead they give the conditions as another option, to be used instead of raw damage in certain situations, then I'm not so opposed to it...although I still believe that dervishes should primarily rely on hitting hard. If I wanted to give conditions and degeneration, there are plenty of other classes I could choose, almost all of which stay out of melee range and have fewer weaknesses.--108.23.64.23 05:30, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the IP raises a solid point. Particularly in PvE where most PvE-only skills are multipliers of direct damage, not conditions... something I was playing around a lot with today while using the current version of Vow of Strength to level up my rainbow phoenix.  Conditions aren't fun.  Big numbers are fun. Things dying fast is Fun... fun enough to make PL'ing a pet the old fashion way a complete afternoon-filler. -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 06:23, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You know, that's another thing I hope they work on: Vow of Strength. I used to love that skill, and then I started actually partying with human players and it became useless pretty quickly (especially with SF so popular). They did alter the functionality of 'pious' skills in order to prevent allies from disrupting a carefully planned build, which is fairly similar in concept. With VoSt, you not only have to design your own build around your elite, but also the builds of all of your allies! Plus, it goes against the whole condition pressuring thing nearly as much as Dhuum does.--108.23.64.23 06:36, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I would also like to add an observation that I made recently. Of all three melee classes, dervishes are the only ones whose primary attribute doesn't give passive damage increases to their weapons, and the only one whose primary attribute does not include any attack skills. They are also the only ones that don't get a permanent 33% IAS (in PVE at least), and Aura of Holy Might benefits any class, not just a primary dervish (compare that to Critical Agility).--108.23.64.23 08:27, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I also enjoyed Vow of Strength before its most recent update. I've still been using it, though it's incredibly incompatible with most meta or henchman builds. I'm excited to see what ArenaNet will do to make it compatible with the upcoming update, though it would be awesome if it were reverted to its previous functionality. Siril Frein 09:33, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Condition spreading skills are great but the range is too large. There is no reason it should affect nearby foes. Rangers used to spread conditions best, now they're useless compared to dervs. A lot of balance issues with the new dervs would be fixed just by reducing the radius from nearby to adjacent. YoUrMoM --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.189.191.186 (talk).

Other Classes
Am I the only one curious to see what this will do to /D builds? I'm particularly looking forward to seeing what Synergy I can create with a Mo/D and Contemplation of Purity, or as Monk Self-defense/support. --198.86.116.71 16:36, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Prolly not. &mdash;  Raine Valen  [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  17:06, 16 Feb 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see where it says that monks have to be on their rears all the time. It may be common in PvP, but not so much in PvE, which is my main play anyway. Armor of Sanctity will hopefully retain it's awesome. --198.86.116.71 17:17, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, flash enchantments on assassins, adrenal scythe attacks on warriors and paragons and maybe Spirit's Strength rits, more possibilities for PBAoE elementalists, defensive enchantments for monks, should be interesting. <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Neptune.jpg|19px]] 17:21, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, flash enchantments on assassins, adrenal scythe attacks on warriors and paragons and maybe Spirit's Strength rits, more possibilities for PBAoE elementalists, defensive enchantments for monks, should be interesting. <font color="#008800">Manifold [[Image:User_Manifold_Neptune.jpg|19px]] 17:21, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

IAS
Umm am I the only one that noticed that Dervs now have IAS' with NO drawbacks? All other physical classes have drawbacks (double damage, -25% damage done, etc) meanwhile the "New" Derv's can spam IAS with NO issue. No offense but breaking a system you guys created to mend another ailment is kinda backwards thinking Rites 20:06, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * There are drawbacks. One needs 4 hits of adrenaline before starting, and lasts short, so it keeps eating adrenaline hits. The other requires an enchantment to strip to last a decent amount of time. And both are 25%, while other professions can get up to 33%. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 23:35, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, its balanced just fine. --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19px]] 08:54, 3 March 2011 (UTC)