User talk:Gem/Archive18

as always
you are mature, and polite.

seems like all the ones who disregarded the NPA on the old wiki came here unfortunately.

are you an admin? i can't remember... if you are, you should at least warn some of those people on the "this page is a copy" page. i can cite plenty of statements they are violating. 67.131.227.19 14:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, your words make me feel good. :) I am an admin on GuildWiki, and was one here but am not anymore. I wouldn't agree with your second line though when discussing the day to day life on gww, it seems that a few users are having a bad day today though. It's true that we have a bit more problems with new users since this wiki is linked to from the game and the official site and everyone comes here, even the trolls and such. Older users aren't a problem at all though, those who came from GuildWiki are very mature and behave themselves mostly. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 15:04, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You might be interested in my post [|here]. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 15:08, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Soo....
I hereby start a petition for User:Gem/Fun. Would you mind? :) ~ dragon legacy  15:58, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Category:Humor. Feel free to contribute. --Xeeron 16:17, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I just might be bored enough to move the page from GuildWiki to this wiki sometime soon. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 19:12, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

welcome
it doesn't need noincludes since the text is in onlyinclude tags :P - Y0_ ich_halt  18:45, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Heh, I didn't check that at all, I just clicked save page and then remembered that it was a template so noincludes would generally be needed. :) -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 19:06, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * doesn't matter, can't be sure enough :) - Y0_ ich_halt  [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px|Have a look at my page]] 19:13, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Do I...
Be having enough "real edits" to vote? I dont feel like counting but Im pretty sure I dont, lol.--Ryudo 02:15, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You can see all your edits at Special:Contributions/Ryudo. The name space selector can be used to select the namespaces. User and Guild namespaces (nd their talk name spaces) don't count. It should be easy to count them by yourself. And you still have plenty of time to contribute to the wiki and be able to vote. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 02:31, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I counted and you don't. &mdash;  ク  Eloc  貢  02:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Lol, damn eloc. You stalk me EVERYWHERE, here and on the other wiki.--Ryudo 02:55, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Edits on talk pages on wiki articles do count, correct?--Ryudo 03:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think I stalk you on GuildWiki, but edits on any pages besides User, User talk, Guild and Guild talk all count. &mdash;  ク  Eloc  貢  03:07, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Not that I see any way around this, but imho, posts on izzy page on skill balancing (overpowered/underpowered/views on updates) really shouldnt count as talk page posts. But again, guess theres no way around that.--Ryudo 03:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I suppose it is because posting on Izzy's page doesn't really contribute anything to GWW at all. At most, it would contribute to making Izzy's job easier. &mdash;  ク  Eloc  貢  04:03, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * giving user feedback on skills doesnt help the wiki at all, no. But it does help the acutal GAME. You know, the one that this wiki is for. --Ryudo 04:09, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * True, but keep in mind a bureaucrat election is to help the wiki. It has no effect what-so-ever in the game. &mdash;  ク  Eloc  貢  04:10, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I would think helping the actual game would count for as much as helping a wiki based on the game but eh, not important. Easy enough to get enough edits just write "I really like this skill" on 100 skill pages and bam. there ya go.--Ryudo 04:31, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point regarding Izzy's talk page. Good point on how to abuse it. Maybe it's worth raising this issue. As for the bureaucrat election, it is about electing users who are to arbitrate and handle inter-user issues on this wiki, not content-related issues and not game-related issues. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 08:52, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

On My Side
I did notice you were in favour of a large part of the policy, just not the part I wanted most (and am fighting for dear life to keep in there because I strongly believe it is a valid change which I would like to implement). I will try to lay off a bit when criticising you though, I do often single you out when other people might do similair things, (it's about familiarity not favouritism :P). NOTE: I made this post after my new recent criticism of your statement on the policy proposal page. Anon
 * I understad that things get heated when something's important to you. I want you to know that I didn't really take things too personally (besides the first time when you werent even registered) and I'm not olding a grudge, plotting a revenge or anything. :P I'm sorry but I'll also have to withdraw from the policy discussion due to other matters (see my user page for details). I wish you the best! -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 22:25, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Raptors
By leaving, you are giving him the win. Stay. -- br12  • (talk) • 22:24, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * He won already, I'm tired of this bunch of losers. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 22:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Gem, you're joking right? --Cursed Angel [[Image:User_Cursed_Angel_Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 22:27, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * By leaving, you don't think he'll feel even better and make more people leave? --[[Image:User-brains12-sigicon5.png|Talk|14px]] br12  • (talk) • 22:28, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Tbh I think he's going to do that anyway. Yes I know I'm giving fuel for the fire but I'm not contributing to a wiki so that I can feel frustrated and bad in real life, I'm doing this to feel good and have fun. This wiki will mots likely never be able to offer that to me again. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 22:37, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

lol gem has feelings lolol &mdash; Skuld 22:58, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * i have feelings too sometimes, i dont like it --Cursed Angel [[Image:User_Cursed_Angel_Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 23:02, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * And I don't like you. But I <3 Skuld. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 23:04, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Byeee Gem! Come back and visit us every now and then (when you feel better :D) ;) Ale_Jrb  ( talk ) 23:06, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Gah! I go out for food and I come back and gem is gone?! noooooo. T_T (although I know how you feel, trust me)--Ryudo 00:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I suppose Gem is going back to Guildwiki as he has Sysop status there still? &mdash;  ク  Eloc  貢  02:18, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Can't blame him. Raptorz continues to plague this wiki while other users (including you eloc) continue to encourage him. Other wiki doesnt have this sort of problem.--Ryudo 03:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Probably because the other wiki doesn't have Raptors, and he's gotten a foothold in here. But Gem, hope you come back once in a while. Gonna miss seeing that Gem icon of yours :) -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 05:29, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, raptors made an account on that wiki to harrass me there as well. However, they have a much...easier...ban policy than GWW.--Ryudo 05:53, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, that's a result of their admin policy rather than a ban policy. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 06:19, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Ryudo, I am seriously fucking getting fed up with you. I've tried my best to leave your alone and I have told you several times that I don't fucking encourage or support Raptors in anyway, shape, or form. So stop fucking being a dick. &mdash;  ク  Eloc  貢  09:57, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * NO U &mdash; Skuld 10:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * QQ -- scourge  10:13, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

(RI) I hope you eventually come back, Gem : ( This wiki has some problems, but we need people like you if we're going to solve them (thanks for the vote of confidence in the bcrat election!). Erasculio 11:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * can't say anything but, everyone's right. you should stay. we have reached consensus on that. now we need a policy that makes you stay. XD - Y0_ ich_halt  [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px|Have a look at my page]] 13:13, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Funny how some of those people who helped further the mess by encouraging Raptors are now posting here. --Xeeron 13:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Eloc, I believe he wasn't attacking you. He just said that you are supporting Raptors, not that you are plaguing Ryuodo. Your response surprised me there tbh [[Image:User-brains12-sigicon5.png|Talk|14px]] br12  • (talk) • 15:54, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * no it was awsome --Cursed Angel [[Image:User_Cursed_Angel_Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 16:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It didn't seem directed at Eloc, but I see how Eloc could've taken it to be toward him. I don't blame him for snapping, considering I've been very close to writing something like that and pressing the save button. Also, to Gem, if you're reading, please come back. I know you have every right to leave here seeing how fucked up this wiki is, and by all means should, but you're a perfect person, along with other various admin and non-admin users here to fix the way everything here is conducted. You are (were?) excellent in almost every situation and enforcing every policy and in every discussion over at the GWiki, and could be the same here as you were in the great system at GWiki in its heyday a few months back before the Wikia move. Please, we need the voice of reason for fixing the broken.  Calor   &mdash;  talk  19:53, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I've blocked Eloc for the outburst regardless -- it was totally inappropriate. I hope he comes back tomorrow in a better mood. &mdash;Tanaric 19:57, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

To those asking for me to return and telling how awesome I am and stuff: I know I might be useful to the wiki, but the wiki isn't fun for me, and I don't like spending time with something that I don't have fun with. I might be back later. Or I might not. I'm still watching certain pages of interest and I might pop a comment here or there, mainly the game update and ANet staff member pages, but that's it for now. -- (gem / talk) 20:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * @eloc, others. Mayhaps "encourage" was the wrong word. What I am trying to say is, on a whole, this wiki has a lot of problems, with a large portion of said problems obviously coming from Raptors. Yet as can be plainly seen on his talk page, you, CA, and many others are obviously not disencouraging him, and at times do seem (imho) to be kinda egging him on.  Look at all of you talking about how you want to post the "pissed off" template on my talk page.  Is this kind of talk supposed to be healthy for the wiki? And your running for bureaucrat? Imho, a bureaucrat should be steadfastly devoted towards making this wiki better.  You have great contributions eloc, but mixed in with those are..well...things like above, lol.  (Dont get me wrong, I'd make an awful bureaucrat, I bitch about stuff way, way too much.) Thats all I'm saying...--Ryudo 21:00, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * To Gem, I now further understand why you want to stop, or drastically reduce your wiki activity, at least for the time being. To Ryudo, most of us have nothing against you, except the small feeling of...dislike that nothing can be done about deriving from the hiatus on your talk page a few weeks back, and, at least from the eyes of someone who was an onlooker to the incident on your page, it would be ironic and quite funny if another welcome was posted on your page. But I'm not/wasn't going to do that, and I'm convinced CA wouldn't either, we'd just talk about it. But I know I am, and perhaps CA is, ready to start over and try to hold nothing from previous events against you.  Calor  &mdash;  talk  00:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much calor, for not holding it against me for defending myself against vandals and trolls.--Ryudo 06:15, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
 * you considered eloc's very first welcome trolling? - Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px|Have a look at my page]] 14:58, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Not the welcome, but the ensuing conversation, I would assume, and for fair reason.  Calor  &mdash;  talk  20:14, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
 * if that's the case, then i can understand him very well. - Y0_ ich_halt </tt> [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px|Have a look at my page]] 20:15, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Gem, I like you, but if the wiki's not fun, there's no need to post an angsty goodbye. Just go. Editors come and go all the time. I've learned that people certainly notice when you're gone -- at least, people always seem to notice when I go a while without editing -- and looks less lame to just disappear for a while and come back than it does to post "OMG I'm not editing ever again probably!" and then come back a month later.

Good luck with whatever you're doing.

&mdash;Tanaric 09:30, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Hehe, I didn't post a 'never going to edit again' message, I clearly said that I'll be doing a little now and then and maby I might get back to regular editing some day. And imo the message was needed. You might think it's overly dramatic, but after that the sock accounts got banned and some other stuff got rollin'. Maby people will realise the flaws in the system if other users get fed up with it too and make a big deal about it. If I had left just because I got bored of the game and the wiki for no particular reason I wouldn't have posted anything, but now I felt the need to comment on the current situation of the wiki.
 * I know that many users here dislike the way I did this. Some have said about it on irc, some on GWiki, some on this wiki (no angry e-mails yet :P ). No need to pretend to like me just so you can give feedback, you're allowed to say that you don't like me and my style. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 21:41, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I've never seen an error in the way you go about things, and your methods on the wiki. Of course, maybe it's simply me being oblivious or wanting to be, or perhaps its a different point of view. Whatever. Anyways, there are things more important than a game and its wiki, so good luck with what you're doing, and don't lose too much sleep over the wiki.  Calor  &mdash;  talk  21:47, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * but after that the sock accounts got banned and some other stuff got rollin doing somethign like this just to provoke change makes you no better than the sockpuppets. That's why people make dramatic exits and assign a reason for it - to provoke some kind of action against the reason. 122.104.231.28 14:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * And you fell for it by producing a response? Incredible logic to equate a statement of frustration with the actions of disruptive users. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 01:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Irrelevant discussion
Wow, this is like the 3rd time you've left? :P &mdash;  ク  Eloc  <font color="Black">貢  21:56, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * And wont be the last time if I return to full edit mode later. ;) -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 22:37, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Keeping a certain level of - disconnectivity - from the Wiki always helps on my part. I edit regularly on all three Wikis, but I generally stay out of bureaucratic affairs when I can. So far, I've yet to get into any arguments over editing, while still keeping a good experience here... taking a half-break, just looking through the windows for a while, works wonderfully. (you probably already know this, due to reasons Eloc has pointed out. :P) Just don't be afraid to let other people do jobs for you, rather feeling like anything is a "responsibility" of yours, you know? --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  23:24, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * My breaks are the 2 times I've gotten banned, lol &mdash;  ク  Eloc  <font color="Black">貢  23:41, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Only time I ever got banned was on PvXWiki, and that ban didn't even go for the full duration. :P --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  00:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Ya, but that's PvX, it's not a real wiki. &mdash;  ク  Eloc  <font color="Black">貢  01:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Only if it's called PvXQuasiWiki.  Calor  &mdash;  talk  01:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * PVX R ELITEST THEY UNFAVIR MAH BUILD 1111!!!!Oneoneoenel;evenone1222111!! &mdash; Skakid  HoHoHo 01:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Please do not continue this irrelevant discussion on my talk page. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 01:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * OFMG PVXWIKI SUX SO MUCH TEIR R NUBS --<font color="Black">Cursed Angel [[Image:User_Cursed_Angel_Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 01:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * YEH FGTS IMO LETS NPA THEM ALOT KK. START WITH THIS FAGT. —ǥrɩɳsɧ  ƿoɲ  02:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * LOLOL HE SUX RIGTH LETZ INULTZ HIM ALOT --<font color="Black">Cursed Angel [[Image:User_Cursed_Angel_Signature.jpg|19px|talk]] 02:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I'll follow Gem's wishes of not continuing. One thing though Gem, if you say you want someone to stop, that will only attract people, like Cursed Angel, to further it more. lol &mdash;  ク  Eloc  <font color="Black">貢  03:37, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Or it'll simply change the subject. But feel free to continue this on my talk page or something, if there's anything to be continued... --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  04:30, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

GRINCH WRONG FGT Armond 04:35, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

PVE "balance" discussion
Could you respond to my post, it's at the very bottom of the first subhead, titled Discussion. Mango 02:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I've probably missed it earlier. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 10:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

GWW:HELPERS
Since you're not as active here as you used to, do you still want your name on the GWW:HELPERS list? &mdash;  ク  Eloc  <font color="Black">貢  01:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I still watch my talk pages daily, so I am more than able to help. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 10:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Check This Out
Hey there make sure u check this out and post here User:Shadowphoenix/User Birthdays --Shadowphoenix 04:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Fun Pages
I had a page with a not existing skill at GuildWiki. Is it allowed to have pages like that here? -- Sorcix the Lazy 18:31, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep, just put it in your userspace. --[[Image:User Brains12 Spiral.png|15px| ]] Brains12 \ Talk 18:33, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Link doesn't work. &mdash;  ク  Eloc  <font color="Black">貢  18:33, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed the link, and yes that's perfectly acceptable in your userspace. We even have a template for fake skills (so it doesn't auto-categorize them): User skill infobox - Tanetris 18:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks guys! --[[Image:User_Sorcix_sig.png]] Sorcix the Lazy 19:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You're perfectly fine to use the normal skill infobox. It's smart enough not to autocategorize user skills, and is actually maintained and have functionality added, unlike the other. Backsword 09:47, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Nifty, that's a new-ish change... only categorizes in the main namespace. I can remember having to edit a bunch of userpages a while back, before that little feature. :D --[[image:User_Jioruji_Derako_logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  14:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

GWWT:ADMIN
I didn't think (or say) that Dir insulted me.. No, that was me saying that. :) That talk page doesn't need more drama/off-topic so I didn't respond there, but I just wanted to say that. - anja   19:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I just skipped over your comment previously. :D -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 19:33, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Meh, Ignore me, that's fine! ;) - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]] 19:44, 15 April 2008 (UTC):)
 * My eyes hurt for sitting in front of the computer for all of my wake up time during the past 3 weeks. You must forgive me this time. :) -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 19:45, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Hehe, of course :) Just joking. - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]] 19:46, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Whi isn't? ;) Well, I'll get off the computer for the first time in 3 weeks. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 19:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Gem.

I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean by "nasty tone".

If you found that paragraph insulting to you, let me know and I'll remove it or try to reword it. It certainly wasn't my intention to insult you (and I'd have hoped that after all this time you'd know that without me needing to post this here).

If you didn't find it insulting on a personal level, but are disapproving of the general sarcastic/bitter tone of the message, I'm sorry but that's your problem, not mine. Guild Wars Wiki:No Sarcasm failed as a policy.

If you think the post was disruptive/offensive on a general level, drop a message on an admin's talk/admin noticeboard/arbcomm page/somewhere else so they can take whatever steps they deem necessary (be that deleting/modifying the post, blocking me, or arbitration). I myself think I didn't cross any boundaries, and that the tone of that message was acceptable (and an accurate reflection of how ridiculous I find that point of view to be). I don't think those arguments have merit and I have no intention of pretending they do just to make my comments prettier to read.

This is not the first time that you (and Anja) get offended by something I say, and I don't enjoy having to convince both of you that I'm not trying to pick a fight with or insult either. I appreciate both you guys and would like to remain friendly with both of you, but this keeps happening, and I'm getting the impression that it's a one sided effort from my side to keep things smooth between us. You may very well be right and it may be that I suck at communicating (after all, no one has ever accused Biro or Rezyk of being rude), but since that's how it comes natural for me to write and since I'm not exactly keen on having to work for hours on my comments just to avoid these silly issues from popping up, and because you have no control about when you get offended, maybe it'd be a good idea for us to take this to arbitration or mediation? Even if you don't think it's time for that yet, keep it in mind as an option if this happens again in the future. If that's what it will take for all three of us to be able to have arguments that don't derail into this kind of discussions, then lets do it. --Dirigible 23:21, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Dirigible, please stop. Your comments on GWWT:ADMIN came off as very rude (even to me), and bringing that here makes it seem even more rude.  This is not something that you should be getting worked up over, maybe you might want to take a bit of a break or something.  Administrative action is not needed here, there is no policy against "rudeness", but it is nice if you can approach a subject without being rude.  -- Shadowphoenix   [[Image:User Shadowphoenix Necromancer.png|19x19px|Please, talk to me; I'm so lonley ;-;]] 23:30, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't like for this case to go too far. As stated on the admin talk page, "I didn't think (or say) that Dir insulted me". Also, I am not going to ask anyone to block or warn you, and I don't think it's necessary. I understood very well why you chose that manner of discussion, but I disliked the tone and thought that it might get worse, so the "I'd be willing to discuss with you if your tone would be suitable for it." was sort of a reminder to stay cool. I have nothing against discussing the issue with you even though we might disagree on the matter at hand. People disagree daily on some issues, and that's the way of life. If no one disagreed ever then discussion would be a pretty useless skill. And I also think that sarcasm is a good tool when used correctly, but it is a hard one to use so that it's clear what you mean, but at the same time doesn't sound negative in some way.


 * I don't remember any past issues between me and you, and I hold you in great respect. I want you to know that I won't hold this issue against you either, everyone gets a bit out of line now and then. I hope you understand that this issue will not affect how I feel about you or anyone else. (okay, unless someone really starts insulting people and blah blah ;) ) -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 23:53, 15 April 2008 (UTC)