Talk:Shadow Form/Archive 3

Confirmed change of SF this year
Just look up to Anet Official Twitter-- Daedalus93 11:14, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's pretty vague, I wouldn't get your shorts in a bunch yet. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  11:15, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That could just mean they're planning on doing a whole lot of farming. :P -- FreedomBound [[Image:User_Freedom_Bound_Sig.png|19px]] 11:33, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Aye? I wanna see all permas crying when this happens (not sure if it'll). But they'll do something because anywhere you go, you see lots of sins, Anet doesn't want that the game dominated by sins - solution: change the skill. What's the fun of being invincible and farm - moreover almost do anything with perma. I admit that I've tried perma and it was really boring. Sorry guys but I hope this ends :p It's destroying GW economy. Daedalus93 11:41, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow! finaly after a year+ of SF exploit they decided to take action! M3G [[Image:Everlasting_Frosty_Tonic.png | 19px | ]] 11:45, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I wish they keep shadow form. Great skill, everybody apart from a small lot of zzzwhiners love it, anet shouldnt listen to zzzwhiners because they ruin the game. --Super  Igor User- Super Igor logo.png 12:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If it can make the game balanced again and take back the class tank to those elite areas, then I'm proud to be called zzwhiner ^_^ M3G [[Image:Everlasting_Frosty_Tonic.png | 19px | ]] 12:37, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You really think that just nerfing Shadow Form would balance the game? Get real, it would only make the game more boring. --Super  Igor User- Super Igor logo.png 13:17, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Certainly not balance the whole game at all. However you wouldn't see outpost (ToA comes to my mind) populated with 90% of Sins anymore. Come on, these places are just farm fest not elite areas. It ain't fun for people not playing sin class. M3G [[Image:Everlasting_Frosty_Tonic.png | 19px | ]] 13:33, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * ToA will be like DoA, empty, almost deserted. I dont approve of it. -- --The preceding signed comment was added by User:Super Igor (talk). 13:35, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know for DoA, but ToA was never a desert place before and won't be after SF's nerf. M3G [[Image:Everlasting_Frosty_Tonic.png | 19px | ]] 13:38, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * SF nerf would only make the game even more boring. -- --The preceding signed comment was added by User:Super Igor (talk). 14:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * U only say that because you make much money with it. But tell me sincerely. Now in game 70% of the people are sins. Anet will do something this I'm sure and it won't unbalance the game. You still have dervishes for farm, Eles, Rit, Monks, Necros - but a sin with a invincible skill it's not even fun. Daedalus93 15:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Igor, please don't bother trying to comment on balance, PvE or PvP. You are defending a skill that provides invincibility.  Your opinion is completely invalid, and moreover, it proves you don't understand even the bare beginnings of balance.  &mdash;Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 20:16, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I would like to see this skill nerfed just so other classes can step in to shine. Every farm in this game is dominated by mainly sins, monks and elementalists, except maybe raptors.


 * Should of never nerfed Ursan. It allowed people to actually play the game on any character without using niche builds. For a non-monthly subscription game why is ANet trying to take up more server space by making farming take longer. Making SpeedClears obsolete seems like a good business model for a Pay-to-Play game. How about letting us store more than 100 platinum and improving the economy. If SF is nerfed the usage of Consumable sets will drop off the table. Making public sale of ConSets a dead market. Thus taking Bones, Iron, Feathers, Essence, Grail, Armor of Salvation all off the market. GW already has an economy that looks similar to a desolate island. There are only a handful of items people need, and what people want is to get off the island. Look to EvE for ideas on creating a more dynamic economy. No supply chain is necessary. But making Gold actually valuable as a trade item would help. Since there is no value in the currency people buy ectos that are useless to be honest and have no market value. It is like buying Tupperware in real life because your bank account only holds $100 dollars, and somehow the community decided to store their value of money in Tupperware. Sometimes people need Tupperware so you can sell it. But there are thousands of people farming Tupperware from the UnderWorld. People's fortunes are determined by the rare material trader that says the Tupperware is worth a certain amount. This isn't even the market value since the rare material trader has a floor price set. I never liked the SF builds as they bred people who thought rolling their faces on a keyboard made them good players. But even more people will quit this game such as they do after every PvE farming nerf (ie. Ursanway, RoJ, Cry, Etc, Etc). If this is the goal to make people stop and save server space this way. Then actually that is a good idea. Let's face it nerfing RoJ was great. What was even better was the fact that W/Mo players can't 123451234512345 in FoW on a W/A Hundred Blades Bar. Just shows how stupid people really are, and Anet shouldn't keep stating they want people to be able to play this game casually in pick up groups as pugs but ignore the stupidity of people. On a side note lag on American servers is almost unbearable now, especially when euro idiots complain about lagging with 50 ping. 69.230.197.167
 * So is this a mistake? I don't understand how good an economy of a game could be. I've been on Guild Wars two years and an half. And only reached 100k (I've school so no real deal here). But the times I've played,(considerably) I couldn't have pass from the mark of 15k normal PvEing. Anet should look for a way to balance the game, economy - PvE. Not only for farming. IS THE ONLY WAY TO GET OBBY OR ANOTHER ELITE ARMOUR THROUGH FARMING? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Daedalus93 (talk).

all you ppl crying about SF are crying because you suck at farming with it,admit it.
 * No, we're crying about it because I fucked your mom. &mdash;Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 14:41, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * @69.230.197.167: I really like your Tupperware analogy! haha so true! I am not now, or ever again, going to play with PuGs, as I can not get over their stupidity. I did that in Prophecies, and it took forever to finish the game. I didn't even get Factions until after I had Nightfall, because the heroes made a huge difference. Does Anet really think I wouldn't remember that? FloppyJoe 18:05, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * @Daedalus93: I go to college and I work, and in my free time I play GW. Even with that, I make money just playing the game. Just going through a mission will net me like 1-2k from picking up money and selling the drops. And, doing quests will do about the same. However, I have made a really good amount of money farming. A few weeks ago, I made 40k in like an hour (or less) of farming. IMO, farming is terribly boring, but with money like that coming in, it's worth doing every once in awhile. Also, I use a war or a rt to farm with, not a perma, so nerf away. I just find it nice to hire a perma runner to clear some stuff for me, rather than spending forever on a mission or quest that I've completed 3 times before on other characters. FloppyJoe 18:05, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I think all of you need to stop complaining. If they nerf something as large as SF they will most likely bring back some of the other old farm builds just like they did when they nerfed Ursan. Then you will all be complaining about FIVE builds out there instead of just perma. I dont see anyone complaining about SoS even though a spirit spamer is the easiest build, by far, to farm the items for nick. is it maybe because SoS is even easier to use then perma? because all of you people complaining can actually use it? I think if they make a skill that other players figure out to use with other skills to make it an incredible skill they shouldn't change it. Most of the people that complain about it are the ones that either cant do it or would rather complain about it then spend the time it would take to make a perma sin. Just like the only people that complained about ursan were the ones that "couldnt get into a NPF group because their norn rank was too low" to all you cry babies i say boo fuckin hoo... get over it and learn how to perma yourself or stop complaining.
 * Newsflash, douchebag, not everyone has a sin or the available slots to make one, nor does everyone WANT to make one for farming. Every class should have SOME potential to farm more than 1 or 2 places, but right now that's hardly the case (see mesmers and paragons who have maybe 5 decent farms between them).  A lot of people have spent an enormous amount of time and energy getting through 3 campaigns and an expansion only to find out at the endgame their class can't farm worth a shit, because everything is dominated by permas and no one wants them.  GG Anet, and gg Shadow Form for taking the fun out of endgame activities for many classes. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 174.112.239.236 (talk).
 * LOL how many dungeons can a perma solo and how many can a SoS build solo? You are a moron to suggest that there are any skills that are as unbalanced as SF. 71.127.89.192 15:39, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Just to clarify
Anyone who thinks that Shadow Form is the problem is hereby declared an effing retard with no game mechanic insight at all. The problem seriously is the working together of shadowform with certain other skills and the lack of removal skills in elite areas. Nerfing shadow form would destroy yet another skill that will never ever see use again. BUT nerfing just ONE TINY THING regarding the other skills or the environments, that gives shadowform a place to stay, for actually fighting in parties the normal way or for running to areas. Breaking shadow form's maintainability = break shadow form. Breaking farming capabilities under Shadow Form = better attempt There are seriously a million ways to break SF farming. Seriously, I could list 1 MEGABYTE of pure text here with ways to break SF-farming without nerfing SF's maintainability. As it is now, UWSC *does* take a bit of skill, have you seen how many PUGs fail? Mountains is a pretty hard area already. UWSC really barely works by a perfect working together of perfect thought-out builds in a perfect environment. Changing even one little thing will break UWSC without breaking Shadow Form. But why do you think nothing happened yet? Because ANet made a mistake by introducing speed clears in their current form. ANet knows about their customer base, and what will happen if they nerf the farms. Countless speed clear guilds have formed, which would break apart, people would get pissed off and leave and NOT buy GW2. This is not what they want. --62.158.82.190 16:59, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Make sliver armor actually hit a random target = boss green farming dead
 * Make SF disable all your spells for 15 seconds
 * Add Signet of Disenchantment to the 4 Horsemen
 * Add any PBAoE to Dryders
 * Add any form of selfhealing to important quest marks
 * Give Aatxe a weak Healing Signet (counters chamber build)
 * Give Obsidian Behemoths troll unguent or Tranquility(nature ritual)
 * Add a monster-skill "Target loses shadowform" to elite areas like UW, FoW, Slaver's Exile, etc. It's their game, they can code anything they want. (even scalable Knockdowns)
 * ...you get the idea
 * diaf &mdash;Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 17:04, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * i dont even see reason why shadow form should be "Immortality" skill they could just change shadow forms functionality totally and if shadow form would be totally changed so what ? there is many other builds to go with. This is just like that ursan shiz. 89.166.101.7 21:38, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You're not allowed to claim that a skill which grants 100% invincibility, has no counters, and is permanently maintainable is anywhere in the same universe as balanced. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 04:49, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Great post. Too bad the above posters didn't actually take the time to read it. 69.129.205.198 16:21, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Too bad it's not the place for it. -- Wyn [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon2.png|19px ]] talk  16:23, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I did bother to read it. It combines bad logic, no understanding of game balance and a ponderous writing style that prevents the point being conveyed effectively.  It also lacks common sense, as nerfing shadow form requires exactly 5 seconds in notepad, whereas all of the other changes requires at least 20-30 seconds in notepad, with most of them scaling up to several hours rather quickly.  And as Wyn said, this isn't the place for it; this is the place for discussing A) the mechanics of the shadow form skill (i.e. "does it reduce damage by 33.333...% or 34%?") or B) the Shadow Form article (i.e. "is mist form really related?  It doesn't really make attacks miss").  Bitching about updates belongs at Talk:Game updates/20090917.  &mdash;Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 16:40, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * THe counter to Shadow Form would be shouts, chants, and AOE spirits. If those skills are developed effectively rangers, Paragons, warriors, monks, and rits would all be able to counter perma while still leaving perma as a valid character. The problem with perma is that a team of them can take out just about anything. Thats not what the game is supposed to do nor what an assassin should be used for. I say leave perma alone, give them back their 50% damage and beef up the shouts, chants, and aoe spirits to counter it. This way permas can still be valid but will need the help of others to do high level missions. Give a monk something to counter the new counters or a ranger for that matter. Keep it off the mes or ele. Give warriors a shout that will affect adjacent to keep the assassin from being a tank (Which IMO should never happen). Make the perma need the help of others to accomplish what needs to be accomplished and you now have a useful skill bar that is not completely immune. Ohh and if you give em back their 50% damage please make it read "Spells do 50% less damage" or whatever to make it attacks only.


 * This game was meant to include all professions not exclude them from high level areas. Which all the complaining about perma is from. Its not that permas are too overpowered its that if you like playing any other profession besides necro, you are screwed. So make permas need to rely on teammates of other professions to some degree and now you have inclusion and happy campers all around. The perma still gets to do their job, just not without the help of other professions -Ideas 11:59, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Oi, not exactly true. Only SoO requires a full sin party, for everything else more professions are involved with a spot for a leech. For example almost every profession can do vale support in UW, Monk can very quickly clear mounts. Kathy, Rragar, Boggies speedclears rely on other professions to be effective, in Urgoz and Deep perma needs support from other non-perma character to stay alive/kill. I only reply to the last bit. I think positive. :D -- 'Nectar 'ines  12:39, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well I was thinking making them more dependent than they currently are. Mainly to lessen the amount of permas that are in the game. What fun is a game that everyone plays the same profession? -Ideas 22:02, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually Shard is so blatantly wrong it's painful. Exagerating things completely.  Your three  super bolded points that should be taken as correct because my name is Shard dur  are so incredibly wrong it makes you look like a fool the way you treat people who disagree about anything with you.  100% Invincibility, no counters, you sound so adept at this game yourself /lawlvomit.  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 17:47, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You are right. Shadow Form is fine. Teams of 7 or 8 sins running the same elite, or single sins running HM dungeons where you normally would bring a whole group just show that people playing Assassins are just very skillful players. 91.34.73.33 23:55, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

shadow form should be nerf imo or atleast make other class equal or add more mob that make shadow form more harder to use...I mean i use shadow form to on my sin but when im on my other class they get left out from uw so i end up doing it on my sin all the time so please nerf shadow form

Maintaining & Counters
I think it is cluttering the page up, perhaps move to to notes and decrease their size? Or any other suggestions? C4K3 Talk 21:34, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you actually discussing the article on the talk page? I'm sorry, I think you have us confused with Wikipedia.  At GWW, we just whine on talk pages.    &mdash;Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 00:23, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Cluttering usually suggests an obscuring of information. Can I ask exactly what is being obscured in this case? Misery  00:32, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The maintaining section really doesn't need to be there, since there's a full sub-page. The counters, I don't really have a problem with, unless you also wanted to move it to a sub-page. -- FreedomBound [[Image:User_Freedom_Bound_Sig.png|19px]] 00:39, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * @Jette lol @Misery the general page, it's to long for people to bother reading it all. @Freedom Bound I think it looks good the way it is now C4K3 [[Image:User_C4K3_Signature.jpg]] Talk 16:58, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

"All But 53hp"
I was trying to figure out if what would happen if you were below 53hp if it would actually heal you, and using burning speed and a 60% dp, figured out that it does not, worth noting? 76.250.193.135 00:49, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No, as it says "lose," not "are set to." &mdash;Jette  [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 00:56, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Jette means to say that part of the skill only does something if you're above the given amount. If your health is at 1 when it ends, nothing will happen. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 01:07, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What they said. :D 'Nectar 'ines  12:27, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Possible Change?
I've been thinking this for a while and it is not new news that SF WILL BE changed at some point in the future. Whether it is related directly to SF or the skills that works with it that is debatable. However, I want to propose this as a possible change and didn't know where to get it in public view. The problem with SF is not the "All spells fail" becuase other elitse also have this same ability (SB/VoS/OF) with similar maintainablility. All attacks miss is what makes SF incredible, ecspecially considering that you can easily ignore the setback of lossing all but xx hp when it ends. Now what if instead of all attacks miss, all attacks have a 90% chance to miss. This would be same effects as having blind opponents which I think is a perfect match for this skill. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.101.182.120 (talk &bull; contribs) at 19:25, 27 September 2009 (UTC).

actually this and SB are unique in the fail department, VOS and the other's wont let you be the target of spells which is a big difference. Roflmaomgz 01:41, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

--Silver Edge 09:04, 4 November 2009 (UTC) --Silver Edge 04:18, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You can and are encouraged to create an account and to create a personal suggestion page -- although in my personaly opinion I think it's pointless because arenanet have stated that they will leave shadow form alone C4K3 [[Image:User_C4K3_Signature.jpg]] Talk 19:32, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That was in june, if you looked at their twitter post in september, they said they vowed to change shadow form before the end of the year. 96.241.59.60 02:39, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * According to a post made today by Linsey: "We are not completely opposed to "nerfing" SF. Once we have the Test Krewe in place, we can think about trying some stuff out."
 * They vowed to impact UWSCing via shadowform. If i remember I think they were trying to make it fairly clear that they didn't want to try to impact the skill itself, because that method has been proven lack-luster over and over again (see: Unlimited Meta-Shift Works).  But now we have some insinuation of SF changes coming once the Test Krewe is in place.  Don't hold your breath on anything major.  This skill has already been nerfed a few times since Factions release.  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ  аІiсә  [[File:User Aliceandsven 1.png]]  ѕνәи  Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 18:50, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * From Regina's latest journal entry concerning the update that added Dhuum to the Underworld: "This was not an attempt to address all of the concerns about Shadow Form Assassins. That will happen in the next major skill update, which will include big changes to Shadow Form and may also include changes to other prominent farming skills."

Stop QQ'in about SF
The perma build is not invincible mode. Their are plenty of monster skills that bypass SF to deal damage/degen. Most of the QQ'in bout it is coming from farmers who cant sell their precious ectos at higher cost (it is after all a fantasy economy and a game). If you really want to have SF nerfed to the point making it unviable for tanking/farming. I have a proposal for you, lets make the recharge on Protective Spirit 45 seconds. That would kill 2 monk solo farming builds in one shot. Theres allready alot of Mo/Me around, whats wrong with having to tote around Arcane Echo in your skill bar all the time, sure you might have to sacrifice a damage dealing skill.... After all, you don't see this kind of complaining about the monk farmers, noone wants to see their monks nerfed. 67.185.81.197 15:00, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Permanent invincibility is a BAD GAME MECHANIC. End of story. I don't care if it's a monk doing it or an assassin.  It needs to be nerfed.  Standing there indignant going "But he did it too!! QQ" Does not make it an acceptable game mechanic, it just means that Anet has failed /more than once/ to properly address a broken system.  I will be happy when entire outposts are no longer filled with the same sin gimmick build, when dungeons are not speed cleared by entire assassin teams all running the same build, or when they are not speed cleared by a duo monk/smiter team.  The only reason you're QQing is because you probably spend all your time using the same exact sin build as everyone else doing the same exact speed clears and dungeon runs as everyone else.  You just don't want your gravy train to end.65.207.54.194 15:19, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually, when I tank with my sin, Flashing Blades is what I use. I don't agree with speed builds either or the perma builds. I have used SF just as a skill not as a build on occasion for some of the more difficult HM encounters. I'll take the death penalty over a party wipe any day. And as far as farming goes, I don't see the point in it. I'll get the armor, gloves, etc. eventually, don't have to have it today. Now as to what has been stated previously, perma builds DO NOT grant invincibility to the sin. Alot of PvE monsters in higher areas have what are called "monster skills," which BYPASS SF allowing them to still damage/degen the sin. That is how SF has allready been balanced in PvE, the counter to them is allready in place. 67.185.81.197 15:51, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * If monster skills are the only thing giving you trouble the skill is overpowered... Take the sin to its intent... quick in and out chains... flashing blades is fine cause its only good vs attacks... I'm even fine with temporary invunerability of shadowform... soon as its 100% maintained its a bad idea and it breaks area's and teamwork... MrPaladin  &dagger;  talk 15:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I completely agree MrPaladin. SF should not be 100% maintainable.  I've been playing mine since before Nightfall, and I like the class because of its high burst damage.  I've seen them get nerfed quite a bit over these last few years and I really don't want my Oh S**t skill to dissapear. In my opinion what needs to be done is to nerf Deadly Paradox where it would read "Stance. All of your attack Skills are disabled for 10 seconds. For 5...13...15 seconds, your Assassin non-elite Skills activate and recharge 33% faster."  Which would still hold the viability of SF for tanking but destroy its maintainability.  Now back to my original point about all the QQ'in of SF.  Why is no one complaining about the 55 or 600 builds which would still be highly viable solo builds for farming after SF is nerfed.  When SF gets nerfed ALL solo farming builds should be nerfed with it.  After all, you dont need SF to solo farm, it's just a easy target to blame for over farming.  67.185.81.197 16:33, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Why can't shadow form Guild Wars be turned into a usable, balanced skill game instead of this gimmicky, imbalanced crap it is now? –Jette [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 00:32, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Hate to say it but 600 is not a solo farm build. you have to have another person/hero to do the damage--Spicy was hot wing 23:06, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The difference between one and two people is not that great. You're still bypassing the intended 8-player-team mechanic that the game was designed with in mind. Especially if you do it with a hero. The point being made here is that people should not be able to easily do with 1-2 highly imbalanced skillbars what 8 balanced (and still powerful) ones struggle with. Permanent invincibility is not a good game mechanic - ever - be it 600/Smite or Perma SF. Admittedly it's fun, every so often; but it ruins the fun of everyone who wants to play balanced in an MMORPG when nobody will take anything else. --70.158.147.133 23:19, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I have a perma, but I only use him occaisonally, usually just to help out friends with things like running. I believe that an effective way to nerf perma would be to have a very fast recharge, and be a skill, but there is an effect that says it is disabled for like 45 seconds. That way it is not maintainable due to the disabling time, and the fact that arcane echo and all the other methods dont work because it is a skill, not a spell. It would then remain a very effective tanking skill, yet not be maintainable.The Orlando 00:34, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't mind that at all, though I liked a suggestion I saw in the Feedback portal better. It went something like "For x seconds you become invisible to your enemies. Ends early if you attack or cast a spell on an enemy." (For PvE only, of course.) It changes the function, but allows Assassins to perform like the ninjas everyone thought they were going to be at first: sneak in unnoticed, take out an enemy or two, and sneak back out with something akin to Death's Retreat or Heart of Shadow. I would personally use this skill a lot more if that's how it operated. It's simply more usable and practical than being invulnerable for a short while and losing nearly all your health, and more reasonable than maintainable invincibility. I don't think your idea would be too bad, though. --[ Kyoshi ]::[ Talk ] 04:32, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Shadow Form: for 10 seconds you move ∞% faster but take g64% more damage. –Jette [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 04:52, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You realize that you can still do a full plains run with only PBAoE skills... "Ends early if you attack or cast a spell on an enemy" doesn't work. 75.175.21.24 05:06, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Then make it whenever you deal damage to an enemy? Oh, right. Make it disable itself for an amount of time, if nothing else, so it can't be permanently maintained. (Y'know, you could suggest additions instead of just nagging about what I left out.) --[ Kyoshi ]::[ Talk ] 09:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

How about we just change it entirely and make it do something along the lines of: 10 45 Elite Skill. For 6...36 seconds, all attack damage is converted to life stealing.

Makes it an interesting skill that helps counteract the Assassin's innate squishiness, but only in combat. Wouldn't be even remotely balanced for PvP, and probably not even so for PvE, but my point's that the skill ought to be changed completely and avoid any sort of "invulnerability" idea. ···  Danny  Pew   Pew 


 * I'm in support of this the most. Also, stop QQ'ing about QQ'ing about SF (not you Danny <3) :> -- -Chaos- (talk) -- 07:27, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Change the skill to function like derv avatars, still powerfull yet not maintainable, which is the main reason the skill is broken. On top of that all the QQ'ing farmers that wil turn on their waterworks the moment SF gets nerfed (lulz, anet actually doing something properly) will have a fancy new character model to drool over and they could change.....


 * DISREGARD THAT I SUCK C..... bad balance team is bad, anet wil be anet217.231.98.108 19:50, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

'''I dont see why everyone complains about SF. Why cant it stay the way it is, cause if SF or the 55 and 600 monk builds got nerfed so no one can farm ectos like they can now, then ectos will be more rare than what they are now, therefore noone would sell as many and alot of people will stop playing as they can no longer get things they would like for their charaters. Its stupid that everyone wants if nerfed, and it seems like skills only get nerfed if another person cnt seem to use the skill sets others can. Get over it cause its JUST a game! On top of that, shadowform is already nerfed in PVP... the only creatures that deserve to argue about SF are the monsters that get wasted by permas...'''


 * People like you undermine everything people like me work to do (keeping shadow form the same). Stop posting please. Briar 03:04, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Ya I know right. Y not make ectos drop way more and for every class? That way everyone can grab chaos gloves and obby armor. Earn your leet stuff in less than one hour!! *sarcasm*. If anything the only stuff that will become more expensive are the stuff from npcs. items sold by players will cost fewer ectos. For those who appreciate obby armor and chaos gloves, this change should make you happy; obby armor and chaos gloves might actually represent an accomplishment. 71.127.89.192 09:46, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

The Backbone of the Game
Everyone is shouting and ranting about Shadow Form being maintainable, and all these Speed Clears and solo farming ruining the balance of the game. Well just FYI, Shadow Form is not ruining the balance of the game, it is keeping it balanced. If they nerf shadow form completely, the games economy will crash.

These permas have been in the game to long to take them back. Everything in the game (besides discontinues) used to be at a steady price range, which was slowly declining. When Anet started the hints at nerfing shadow form, the economy began to go into wack. When they made the skeletons permanent, all hell broke loose.

This game doesn't run on Gold Coins or Platinum. 97% of the game runs on Ectos. Once permas were introduced, Ectos began to slowly decrease, bottoming out at 4kish. The hints of nerfing began, prices began to rise, they reached 5k within a few weeks, and it took months or so lower ectos down that much. This began a mad ecto frenzy, people refused to sell ectos because of the hinting of nerfing and the insane inflation to follow. So once the skeletons became permanent, ectos inflated like crazy! 5k to 7.5k within a day! On the lower scale, this doesn't seem to change much, but since rare weapons and minipets that go over 100k are priced in ectos depend on a steady currency, this screwed everything up. With ectos rising and prices fluctuating, it was hard to sell or buy anything rare during this period. 23 ectos became 16 ectos, and people refused to cooperate. Everything was Chaos. Things began to calm down, and people found ways around the skeletons. Now that Anet has placed Dhuum i the UW, it has increased intrest, lowering ectos back to normal range. All of this has to do with the practice of permaing in the UW and solo farming. Who knew that such practice could screw things up so much.

So now that things are a little higher than normal and relatively stable, things are okay. But now we got people saying they will completely nerf shadow form. If they do, all hell will break loose again. Permas ARE EVERYWHERE! In the daily life of a Guild Wars player, they do runs, they do main tanking for things, they do speedbooks, they run dungeons, they Speed Clear and solo farm areas and greens. All these money making opportunities will be GONE, if they nerf Shadow Form. Making a perma isn't that hard, anyone can do it if they have the character slot, time and about 15k. Permas are NEEDED in Guild Wars Today.

Permas are the Connection between the Rich and Poor. If they nerf Shadow Form, the poor will stay poor and the Rich will only get richer. With all rare weapon farms as a major source of income for the poor (SoOSC, BogSC etc...) nerfing Shadow Form will only remove that ability, and for those who are rich with these rare weapons, the weapons will become rarer, and will increase in price. Permas MUST stay in the game to keep the middle class ALIVE! The lucky poor guys who catch their break become this middle class with permas. Permas are the backbone of the guild wars balance.

Guild Wars depends on Permas, whether you know it or not. In a perfect world, there would be no wealthy or poor, just the common man who has the same amount of money as the next guy. But that is no fun. The motive of the guild wars player is to be better than the next guy. A complete balance would be horrible, but a untouchable wealthy elite will wreck everything. Give permas a chance. Yes Guild wars isn’t for solo farming, but grinding feathers for cash isn’t right either. Permas nowadays aren’t soloing things for cash, but for helpful items, or they are in a team as a tank or something.

I personally place a stamp on permas. DO NOT DELETE--68.115.108.135 05:22, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * They just need to take ability to dmg while using shadow form that 33% should be 100%, godly tanks should not be able to do dmg. 89.166.101.7 05:38, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree, just make permas unable to do damage. Then people can use sf as a tank which can hardly be considered farming. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.101.0.243 (talk).
 * LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL obviously you've never played Dervish. and if you get rid of a perma's damage, they will just use degen it works just as good71.59.135.73 06:29, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Lol. What I got out of that upon tl;dr:ing is that you want people who don't deserve cash to be rich, and people who actually earn it to be meaningless. -- -Chaos- (talk) -- 08:47, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

5/10, I raged. NuVII  09:30, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * "This game doesn't run on Gold Coins or Platinum. 97% of the game runs on Ectos"

Quite a good troll. 6/10 I'd say. - Auron 09:45, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Personnaly I don't care if rich will get richer. Once they will have everything they want they will get bored and leave GW. What I would like is other class being used once again. Not being forced to use perma sin or then being left out. M3G [[Image:User_M3G_Pumpkin.png‎| 19px | ]] 09:51, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * ^ IP hit the nail on the head. Even when new WoW raids come out and they're hard as balls, any class can tank, heal or DPS it. The raids aren't reduced to "warriors only everyone else can fuck off thanks ^^" which is what UW has become - and honestly, what DoA was, too. Balanced builds have never worked in DoA because it was designed like shit. I preferred a physical heavy with paragons for defense-type build, but while that can resemble balanced, it was basically just another gimmick. ArenaNet needs to make the elite areas hard, but still beatable by a balanced group (1 mes, 1 necro, 1 war, 1 para, 1 rit, etc), and eliminate this "6 sin" bullshit.
 * P.S. nerf shadow form. - Auron 09:54, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I actually read through it now. "Everything was Chaos." ... Is this bad? D: -- -Chaos- (talk) -- 12:07, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * In reality, I find rits the fastest and strongest solo farmers. But hey whos complaining..... --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.115.108.135 (talk).

enter dhuum? also, the problem isn't so much that SF is broken as much as it is that a bunch of life-lacking basement-dwellers sit around farming UW at every chance they have. SF wouldn't be a problem if people had social lives. :> ···  Danny  Pew   Pew  23:44, 24 November 2009 (UTC)


 * That's like saying chemical warfare wouldn't be a problem if people didn't want to kill each other. It's technically true, except it doesn't apply to reality. -- NuVII [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] 00:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No sane person really wants to kill anyone else, though. ···  Danny  Pew   Pew  19:39, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No sane non-american/european person want's to kill someone else (that's better) Rhonin Soren 20:37, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

"In the daily life of a Guild Wars player, they do runs, they do main tanking for things, they do speedbooks, they run dungeons, they Speed Clear and solo farm areas and greens" No offense, but I hardly think just *one* skill should be able to do all that. Seriously man, think about it. (forgot to sign) Harrier 16:29, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * OP is viewing what the sins do as some kind of charity cause, even though they're making gold for absolutely everything they do, otherwise none of them would bother. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 17:10, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Why is e-gold so important? Guys, its REAL LIFE money that gets you laid, not chaos gloves.-- *Yasmin Parvaneh* [[Image:User_yasmin_parvaneh_sig.png]] 17:45, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * +1! I messed up indenting just to say you are awesome. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 06:45, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Massive amounts of e-gold --> 5-foot e-peens --> get e-laid? --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 18:34, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd say the possibility of the irl versions being more enjoyable are quite high. Also, Yasmin, I was just saying that dude who made the wall of text seems to think that Shadow Form sins are godly and should thus be honoured. He sure makes it seem like that, in my opinion. Harrier 22:57, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I wasn't directing that to you hon, I meant the OP and his particular need to express how rich SF makes the world.-- *Yasmin Parvaneh* [[Image:User_yasmin_parvaneh_sig.png]] 23:07, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I forgive you. Harrier 23:13, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, Harrier, I agree that it's weird, I was just trying to help figure it out. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 19:13, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * GG dude. 11/10. Btw WoW =/= GW. WoW takes like a year or more to get to a statuse where you can be called "elite". GW takes all of an hour, hour and half, to roll a perma, get it to ToA and start farming. The WoW argument is invalid. Btw WoW is better because at least people have REAL gold sinks for their massive ammounts of wealth. unlike GW. Chaos gloves. What a piss poor excuse for a gold sink. -1/10 Briar 06:42, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Go play WoW Briar, don't let your epic skillz go to waste here.-- *Yasmin Parvaneh* [[Image:User_yasmin_parvaneh_sig.png]] 22:11, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * WoW is probably a pretty fun game, other than the terrible graphics -- the biggest thing wrong with it is all the fags who play it. At least with GW, 98% of the population being retarded 13-year-old cunts is (amazingly) a secondary issue.  –Jette [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 23:57, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

I dont think that many/any of the supporters on an SF nerf want it because of the money a perma can make, they want it because sins ruin the game. What good is a game's economy if people lose interest because they need to play a particular profession to do any high level stuff? Why do we even have dungeons if groups cant be found? People are not playing the game they are paying permas and 600s to play it for them. If nerfing SF does make the economy crash, increase the ecto drop rates and kill these overpowered builds. Gameplay should never be sacrificed for game economy. Will more people get bored of a game because they cant look as cool as they want to without serious effort, or will more people stop playing because any pve build or team they whip together is nearly always outshined by a single perma or a 600/smite? The diverse playing styles offered by being able to play various professions are the backbone of the game, not these semi-skill-less, overpowered builds. 71.127.89.192 03:22, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion for change
Here's my thoughts on changing the PvE version of Shadow Form, which I feel could potentially solve a lot of the problems related to it.

Here is the skill description for the skill as it is now:

Energy Cost:10, Casting Time:1, Recharge Time:45

Description: Elite Enchantment Spell. For 5...18...21 seconds, all hostile Spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss, but you deal 33% less damage. When Shadow Form ends, lose all but 5...41...50 Health.

And here’s what I suggest changing it to:

Energy Cost:10, Casting Time:1, Recharge Time:30

Description: Elite Enchantment Spell. For 10...23...26 seconds, all hostile Spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss, but you deal 25% less damage. When Shadow Form ends, lose all but 15...51...60 Health. You cannot cast Shadow Form while enchanted with Shadow Form.

This would actually buff the skill in certain ways, and make it easier to maintain. But it would also require more careful use of the skill, due to the mandatory one second or so downtime during recasting. I feel like this change could keep Shadow Form as a viable option for tanking, but discourage it from being quite as overused as it is now.

(68.147.242.121 00:33, 30 November 2009 (UTC))


 * best if you goto this link for the above suggestion. Plus there are a lot of them already, and looks like the skill change is already thought of... --|pixy| 11:18, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Keep every thing the same add: u have x heath degen, SF ends if your health drops below x% 71.127.89.192 00:21, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Glitch
No longer getting the faster cast time with deadly para anymore, can anybody else confirm or do I just have this glitch?--Silven 10:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * was a bug i the first place you shouldnt get 66% but 33% 91.0.191.6 12:02, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * nerfed!!! lol j/k -- Pixy | Talk User_pixy_hand.png 16:20, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The corner of my mouth twitched in disbelief. You must have an amazing sense of humor. -- -Chaos- (talk) -- 20:30, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * So when was it reverted?--Silven 05:04, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I am also getting slow Deadly Para Charge --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.115.66.33 (talk).
 * Well if Deadly Paradox is tweaked, SF will not be able to be kept maintaned even with cons and glyph. But reading through Lindsey's journal it's not only a tweaking of numbers but also skill functionality changes (for SF). Also, I doubt DP has been changed without notice... -- Pixy | Talk User_pixy_hand.png 11:16, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * They only fixed the cast time, which was supposed to be slower than it was. Just a bugfix. I can confirm that it happened. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 02:01, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Shouldnt be noted here, but on the Deadly Paradox page as it really has nothing to do with shadow form, but with perma. so, if ther's a perma page i suppose you could put it there too. also not a big deal since its still very easily perma'able so long as your ping is under 2k (my lowest is 1.5k on my laptop, and i still have no issues)71.59.135.73 06:34, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I got the same problem on my E/A, I used to be able to cast Glyph, DP and SF perfectly with candy corn and golden eggs now it drops 50% of time before recast!!!

Buff
This need buff either reduce energy cost or make duration longer. It annoying or cost expensive consumbles to be keep up. Maybe make lower damage go away too cause is annying when monster take long to kill. Maybe also make character look shadowy so its more cool! Please discuzz 91.34.112.230 03:22, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * 0/10. --User Ezekial Riddle silverbluesig.png R I D <font color="#a1b1bf">DLE 03:23, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * 0/10, we call you a phag and troll your talkpage. –Jette [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 04:16, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * What do 0/10 mean? Is related to 9/11? Or you mean cast time? Maybe lower cast time is good idea so maybe i like ur idea. 91.34.112.230 04:40, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * 0/10. You get points for bringing up 9/11, but lose them for failing to mention why it's relevant.  –Jette [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 04:43, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * ✈ ▌▌38.99.170.195 05:18, 9 December 2009 (UTC)


 * No,we ment your Opinion is 0/10 . Shadowform needs to be nerfed,Maintainable invincibility should be open to all profetions.Not just assasins(and mabey ele's)-- Nei l2250  User Neil2250 sig icon5.jpg 19:20, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * True! Or even better. Just make all chars invincible without the use of a skill. 91.34.111.165 22:38, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not even sure he's joking anymore o.O Harrier 22:01, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I have the perfect thing, I think it needs a BAMPH! effect. 71.127.89.192 04:04, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Death Day: 12.10.09
Waiting for tomorrow's update for SF nerf... let the countdown begin. --Leet Tankur 03:58, 10 December 2009 (UTC) . No one said when that would be :P -- Wyn  talk  02:14, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It's that soon? Now I won't be able to sleep until it happens, I'll be so excited. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 17:06, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It will die when XTH comes back, which is never. Previously Unsigned 17:20, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * We shall see, on both counts. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 17:40, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Cool. Though, where was this promised? | <font color="Red">72 User_Seventy_two_Truly_Random.jpg (UTC) 19:13, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll believe it when I see it (or rather, when I can't get on the wiki due to all the whining), but this is likely to be the last update of the year (if it even happens today), and SF was supposed to see major changes this year. <font color="Black">-- <font color="#0104C6">FreedomBound [[Image:User_Freedom_Bound_Sig.png|19px]] 19:15, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Dev's journal, forget whose, maybe Linsey's (sp?). Wasn't so much promised as a nerf as something like "there will be major changes made to Shadow Form and other farming builds." Not sure what it means yet, but we can assume it means a nerf or rework that'll hurt farming. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 19:17, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't mean the changes, I knew those were coming, I mean the particular date (unless you're saying that was also confirmed in a dev journal recently). | <font color="Red">72 User_Seventy_two_Truly_Random.jpg (UTC) 20:07, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It was for this month's balance update. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 21:38, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * "That will happen in the next major skill update, which will include big changes to Shadow Form and may also include changes to other prominent farming skills. ~Regina's Journal"
 * High five Wyn for comprehension. | <font color="Red">72 User_Seventy_two_Truly_Random.jpg (UTC) 03:40, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * They've been implying it will be before the new year, but who knows if it'll actually happen. Moreover, as hard as it is to imagine something worse than total invincibility, it's possible they could make it worse.  "90% of damage you take is redirected to enemies" or something comes to mind.  –Jette [[Image:User_Jette_awesome.png|19px]] 07:13, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

5e1/4cast20recharge: For 20 seconds All non-critical hits you do or take, deal no damage. The next 1-2-3 spells used against you fail. Ends after 1-2-3 spells. Justice 07:23, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I just hate all the bashers of SF. There are so many solo farm builds out there, but let's just pick on the sin skill....not too many things sins can do in a party (thus the term Squishies). No one complained about the solo tank ecto farming build, no one complained about the any other solo farm builds out there. It seems that SF is always the scapegoat for the "bad economy" in GW. Let it go. Nothing is stopping people from getting their own teams together for a balanced run. So do it already. Some people like the grind of farming. If some don't then they don't have to do it. This is a game for everyone. It has nothing to do with nerf a build and everyone will leave. It has to do with people playing the game the way THEY want, not the way everyone else thinks they should. If and when SF gets the NERF STICK again (and it has been posted several times that the previous nerf would be the last on SF) people will find yet another way to do a speed clear or a solo farm. We already see the W/N pwning the raptors (where are the nay sayers here), I have several toons that I use for farming whether solo or part of a hero team (can u say Discord hero team). The perma has its place in the game. No one complains when they need a run or needed to leech asuran points. No one complains when the sin gets tanked quick in AB. No one complains that there are NO PERMAs in PvP. So get off your high horses and leave it be. Stop the whining. If it's not perma it will be something else for you to whine about. This is a game people and everyone should be able to play it the way they want to. THe economy in the game is f*cked as it is. I have been playing since the beginning and I remember when a green was worth over a 100k and ectos were 15k. The farm grinders were the only ones to make money then. Rasnyc123 15:01, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * 1/10. NuVII  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] 15:04, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * That's right....I forgot only the people who want nerf for SF in general are allowed to post. No other point of view is allowed here. So sad. It's truly a shame that Wiki discussion is only for whiners now. No real discussion since all the posts are one sided. Rasnyc123 15:20, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Permas are not a problem because they farm. Farming is never considered a problem by the ANet team, because they KNOW some people play that way. Permas are a problem because they do EVERYTHING high-end, and nobody except guildies, newbies, and henchmen, and the legendary half-decent PuG, are willing to play a different way. No class should be invulnerable to almost everything in an ELITE MISSION like the Underworld. They shouldn't be able to mob their way through dungeons like Mario high on perma star power. Of course there are other farming builds that need the "nerf stick", and the journal saying that SF was getting nerfed said other prominent farming builds would also be affected.
 * You demean our arguments as whining when you haven't given any non-refutable reason why it should stay, just the "WELL THEY'RE DOING IT TOO" argument, which is clearly just dodging the point, and pointing out things that may or may not need a nerf. Trust me, we do complain about the others, but permas have become so prominent that they just need to go, and we'll push for that before we whine about some W/N's farming only raptors, which really isn't an issue. Farming is not the issue; a single class practically retaining ownership over all high-end play is the issue. Show me any W/N that can match that. --Kyoshi (Talk) [[File:User Kyoshi sig.png]] 19:09, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Shadow Form: All buffs and nerfs while you are enchanted with Shadow Form fail.--88.25.162.68 08:47, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Uhm...nah? That would just make the user melee-/direct spell damage-meat, since they couldn't be protted. ANet apparently already have a plan for this, and this isn't the Feedback portal so they won't see your suggestion anyway. --Kyoshi (Talk) 20:54, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I lol'd after reading this. So when is shadow form gonna change smartguy? :D Briar 06:50, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The OP actually tried to change the section name and his comment when the nerf didn't occur last Thursday like he foresaw. --Silver Edge 07:09, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

That just makes it funnier to me. >:D Briar 07:21, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * How amusing. And I guess we were all just posting from back in time... to the future?? "Hey, guys, when did Shadow Form finally get changed?" "Oh, that? It happened tomorrow." | <font color="Red">72 User_Seventy_two_Truly_Random.jpg (UTC) 15:19, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

The nerf crowd has, to my knowledge, almost entirely failed to acknowledge the fact that not everyone can play GW for 16-18 hours a day to build their fortune and kit their characters through normal means. Some people actually try to balance it with, you know, that thing called a life. Which means that they don't have as much time to invest in getting high end stuff in GW. They don't have time to do things the long way and hope against hope that some good loot might spawn on the one run they have time for on a given night. Things like permas and SF give such players the opportunity to get some of the high end stuff in the time they can play. For example, I'm the father of a four year old, so naturally I can't be in the game all the time like many of the younger players. But I still like having some of the rare and high end stuff. Having an SF sin as one of my chars helps me do that in a reasonable time frame. And no one in the nerf crowd has, to my knowledge, offered any alternative to that. --Nathe 01:30, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * That's because there shouldn't BE an alternative. Casual players are not supposed to have the nice stuff that hardcore players have. That's what makes them casual. [[Image:User_Felix_Omni_Signature.png]]elix Omni 02:06, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Uhhhhhh
this is probly the only skill with an archive...-- Nei l2250   19:20, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * no... 127.0.0.1 19:54, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * UB, tbh. --User Ezekial Riddle silverbluesig.png <font color="#dce2e8">R <font color="#cfdae5">I <font color="#b8c2cc">D <font color="#a1b1bf">DLE 02:23, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I must be psychic; I knew that befoere you posted it. Oh, no, wait, it was just posted above you and you didn't bother to see *rolleyes* | <font color="Red">72 User_Seventy_two_Truly_Random.jpg (UTC) 03:42, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Smiters boon. >.> Briar 06:40, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Role of the sin class pre-shadow form and relation to current situation
A few years back a guild leader of mine posted this article on the class and it's role, namely how to play it and this was well in tune with what A-Net intended it to be. Take a look and tell me this crap isnt broken, and while this was more geared towards PvP you can see what the asssasins intent was, fast deadly force. not a tank.
 * Specialties of the Assassin

- The assassin brings to mind images of ninjas in every guild wars player’s mind. Funny enough, a ninja is how an assassin acts, at least they should do. You have but go goal in any given situation in any part of the game. While the warrior is versatile and can do most things from pressuring to assisting spiking down on a target (deep wound), and the dervish focuses more on pure pressure to bring down opponents – the assassin however has but one goal. To Kill. But go about it in the warrior’s fashion (ie. Run at target, bashing away) or the derv’s fashion (enchant the crap outta yourself and bash away) and you’ll surely die. The assassin is the only class in the game to have a very unique ability. Shadow stepping. This ability, while not only looking cool is a much more useful ability than some of the primary attributes in the game (Strength, FS for eg). The ability to warp to an opponent in a blink of an eye is an incredible feat, especially for a class which has the highest attack power in the game bar none. (see offense) Next let’s take a look at the Assassin’s primary attribute, Critical Hits. Critical Hits serves two purposes within the assassin’s arsenal, to provide a significant increase in damage and to provide the classes energy management (a very efficient one at that, on bar with SR on a good day). Utilising Shadow stepping, the incredible attack power and Critical hits is the key to playing an assassin well.

Offense - Anyone who has been ganked by a BoA sin (annoying ain’t it) or in the old days a falling shocker understands the power of the assassin spike on a unprepared target (we’re talking 450-550 dmg PLUS deep wound and degen). Notice the key word there Unprepared, the aim of the assassin is to catch someone off balance and reduce them to death is roughly 3-4 seconds. The effect that this can have can change the course of the match. In a GvG theres nothing scarier than seeing ur entire backline go down in 6 seconds or so. Think of yourself as inflicted shock and awe. You’ll feel good dashing away from a monk’s corpse and leaving the team wondering “WTF just happened, he hacking?!”. Not only that, but this effect leads onto the art of ganking (see section further on) a guild hall.

Defense - Many people would argue that the assassin is made of paper, that they’re all noobs who die in seconds roflcopter etc. These people are called idiots, any experienced player will tell you that there is NO bad class, no weak class. Every class has their place in the game, imo none fit their description better than the assassin (perhaps the monk could ). I want every person who reads this to inscribe on their assassin’s forehead “I AM NOT A TANK”, sure u have tanking abilities most defiantly, vigorous assassin’s and try flashing blades + critical defences (140% chance to block anyone?), not to mention the incredibly under rated healing power of some of the shadow arts skills (feigned neutrality way of perfection and shadow refuge are great examples). Try to bring ONE healing skill into a GvG, you shouldn’t need anymore, the whole principal of you character, is to shadow step up to someone, kill, then escape. It’s that simple, the enemies shouldn’t have enough time to kill you before u escape from within their team. That’s the truth of it, if you’re dying then you’re spending WAY too much time in the front line for an assassin. The best defense is to not engage until ur rdy to spike (and hopefully, kill), then do so and then IMMEDIATELY retreat and wait for your chance to do so again. You’ll get called “coward” and “stop running noob I’ll pwn j00 in a 1v1” by many warriors frustrated they couldn’t stop you killing the monk they so sorely needed, but don’t worry about them, they’ll be dead soon.

The Art of Ganking -Perhaps THE most annoying strategy to be against in a GvG, the whole team keeping ur team pinned in a massive fight in the middle and you notice they’ve only got 6 players there… the last 2 are the 2 assassins in your guild hall who have just destroyed your entire NPC army. This strategy has won MANY high level GvG’s, and is generally hated by crappier guilds due to them thinking it’s “unfair” or “nooby”. The fact of the matter is, it’s a sound strategy that you can use to win. Remember at 20 minutes into the game “Victory or Death!” is Declared and the respective armies make their way to the center to do battle. If one side does not have an army, they’re about to find out what it feels like to be against 20 NPCs, a Guild Lord AND the team of 8 players. Pwnage at its best there’s something very satisfying about watching a team who held so bravely succumbing to your horde of archers, knights, bodyguards and of course your team. That is the final aim of the gank squad, to ruin the chances of the team’s efforts in VoD. But of course, ganking is a broad term, generally used to describe the assassin’s fighting style. An unfair judgement perhaps, but as assassin’s we face abuse constantly from the rest of the community because of our “lowly” or “noob” tactics (don’t seem to complain if we’re on their team killing their enemies though!)

Summary I’ve written rather a lot about the sin, perhaps because I feel the class receives a lot of abuse for its ability to (unfairly?) kill anyone in seconds. Here’s just some tips to think about - REMEMBER – YOUR NOT A TANK, YOU NEVER WILL BE - REMEMBER – SHADOW STEP >COMBO>ESCAPE>REPEAT - Use vampiric daggers, zealous daggers and a elemental (counters warrior’s +20 vs. physical) pair too ,and rem, sundering is crap for sins, even if u hit that 20/20 a lot, because of the low attack power of daggers 7-17 your only talking an extra 1-2 dmg, vamp gets more damage easily, and zealous is unbeatable for energy management with high crit hits too - Choose your targets carefully, for example, if you notice a monk using infuse health on another member of his team, then warp in and spike. Let THEM show you when to attack, your opponents worst enemy is himself. Getting to learn the casting animations and such is very helpful for this.


 * At 6,000+ characters, that was too long for me to read in one sitting, but I do have to say thank you for using the Enter key to make coherent paragraphs out of your wall of text. +1 Vili &#x70B9; [[Image:User Vili sig.jpg|User talk:Vili]] 01:35, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * General tl;dr and zzzz walls of text. -1 point for using paragraphs, should've made it harder to read. NuVII  [[Image:User NuclearVII signature 3.jpg|19x19px]] 12:06, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * You made some good points, but your posting reason is sadly both valid and making it have to go somewhere else. It's assassins not using SF. This is the SF Page. Sorry :/ Harrier 15:26, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The point of the article was to demonsrate the role of the assasin as it was intended at release, and lets face it shadow form and assasin are one and the same, sure ocasionaly you might see one with somthing else but thats about as common as echo mending frenzy heal sig. Simply put shadow form=assasin.Zanarov 16:13, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't disagree with you :P One thing though;most assassins, say 97% run SF/commonway. Here and there there's some originality, but most of that fails. I personally use an OK-build. It's not perfect, it's not 100% original (Shadow Prison) but it does the job and it does it well. (I use SP because it's a hex and a shadow step, which was pretty much what I needed. The movement reduction is neglegible at r8 deadly arts. Harrier 17:29, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

HURRY UP AND NERF THIS, ANET
On behalf of everyone who doesn't play a sin or a 600 monk, PLEASE NERF THE FUCK OUT OF THIS AND 600 SO OTHER CLASSES CAN PARTICIPATE IN ENDGAME ACTIVITIES AGAIN. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 174.112.239.236 (talk).

Shadow Form and Assassins

 * Personally, I do not understand why the non-assassin even cares what the assassin does. Sure Shadow Form has some good defenses to it but it is not invulnerability.  There are a very few areas that one can completely farm solo in Shadow Form, it is easy to modify an area that ANet does not want Shadow Form used in anymore.


 * As far as the Virtual Economy? Well, Shadow Form ruins it less than the person that buys and sells Lockpicks from Discount Merchants. Not to mention Gold Sellers.


 * Now to be realistic, when you make changes to a game that goes against the majority of the gaming community you end up being like Sony; as an example, how they ruined Starwars Galaxies. Should ANet make yet another change to Shadow Form, they will run the risk of alienating a majority of GWs customers and in turn lose trust from the community and in turn lose sells on Guildwars 2.


 * As it is farming solo the drop rate is severely lacking. Farming in Shadow Form is Slow.  The amount of time one spends going through these dungeons in Shadow Form to gain drops/money is far less than someone doing Vanquisher.


 * Now what is the difference with 2 players loading 6 heroes and having a go farming Ecto than the Assassin that goes solo? The drop will be the same if not less for the Assassin.  Solo Farmer's drops are decreased especially if they kill too fast.


 * Shadow Form does not EFFECT YOU and does not HURT YOU. Yet you are prejudiced against it because you feel your are not good enough to out farm it.


 * It has been my experience in every game that I have played, when people start to complain about an individual style of play, it is usually because they are threated but it, do not have the skill to do it themself or do not want others to have an easy time at doing something that costs them considerable effort.


 * Another reason for the projected nerf, I've been told, is to protect the non-assassin community from feeling ostracized. Well this debilitating feeling is of one's own's design.  If you give in to the peer pressure and then finally conform to the majority, you have no one else to blame but yourself.  In other words, "Who cares what other do, make friends and go to these areas with whatever character you want."  Stop letting people tell you that you cannot do it with that character.  Finally, if you really cared about farming in an area you would still go to that area and form groups dispite the population of assassins.


 * This game is not what it used to be with Prophecies and with Factions where you were forced to group. And communities and friends were formed from grouping.  Today, we have heroes and we have "The Triple Necro Machine" and "Discord-Way".  People really do not need all the gimmick builds, but let's face it, the people that play guildwars now are anti-social until they want to sell something or want a "gate monkey".  People rarely stay in group after a mission is done or a vanquish or farm is complete.  The current mindset of the Guildwars community, promotes the use of Shadow Form and solo farming.  If it is not whiners, it is petty people or immature kids; why deal with the pathetic drama when you can just solo.


 * Shadow Form is a skill that makes sense on an assassin. Assassin are supposed to be stealthy classes but Stealth does not exist in Guildwars.  That is why I use Shadowform.  I mostly use it to help people in the form of RUNNING.  I'd love it if they changed Shadow Form to something like: while it is active you do ZERO damage (degen still able to cast) and leave the rest as it is.  If all you can do is a Degen or a Condition, then there is not much the assassin can do while in Shadow Form.


 * Another idea is turn it into an enchantment like Illusion of pain or Faithful Intervention where it has no duration. Change what it does, cloaks one's presence to all critters except special bosses that can see through the cloak.  While active you can run past critters and they will not aggro you, if you attack, Shadow Form fails and that Melee Attack does 250% more damage (i.e. an assassin's strike). --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.127.125.96 (talk).


 * Firstly, sign your posts by adding ~ to the end of it.


 * 1. The argument goes "You don't have to participate in it if you don't want to; stop complaining." However, we bought into the game, and if there is a fixable part of it, let it be fixed. I agree that it's going overboard for people to say that Shadow Form is the number one cause of ruining the game, but it does make it much easier to beat the game, which equals both titles and gold.


 * 2. Agreed; while it does imbalance some things (certain rare drops are not so rare or prestigious anymore), there are worse things (like keg farming once was). Though Anet did fix that one, so...


 * 3. The main loss of future sales right now is due to Shadow Form and other unfixed things offending the more serious players. Check the number of users here with a disclaimer, "Ain't gonna buy mah GW2," and correlate them with complaints about Shadow Form...


 * 4. I don't have any experience in this so I won't comment.


 * 5. If this were true to the degree you say it is, Shadow Form wouldn't be so popular.


 * 6. Sudden leap without any logical or evidential basis based on your prejudice against people that want to make a game better by their conscience, not because they're hateful or something.


 * 7. Go check the guide to Perma Shadow Form and tell me how incredibly hard it is, that 60% of the playerbase is too bad to use it, and then consider the option: that it's so incredibly easy, 40% of the playerbase has to resort to it.


 * 8. Whoever is for or against something without thinking about why is indeed stupid and should get any repercussions of a decision made about it. But there are lots of people that honestly think about it and come to a decision that aren't "conforming to the majority".


 * 9. Speak for yourself, the people who enjoy community will seek it out and the people who shouldn't won't ever be involved in an MMO the way you want them to be. By the by, have you ever done a Zaishen quest?


 * 10. Yes, that is a popular suggestion, and would be "a skill that makes sense for Assassins", being stealthy and whatnot. I'll tell you what isn't: a skill whose main use is to lunge out into the open and attract the attention of as many enemies as you please because the more you get at once the faster they go down. That's the job of a tank or nuker or something, not an Assassin.


 * 11. I don't see why anyone would ever want to pay for a game with a mechanic that says "Run through the game as if it never existed for virtual in-game rewards at the end." That ain't fun. If you're playing a game for the sake of beating it or for the sake of winning stuff in the actual game, you're insane. And if you find running through missions without any enemies but bosses fun, maybe you should go play some early NES games...


 * 99. I get trolled hard. | <font color="Red">72 User_Seventy_two_Truly_Random.jpg (UTC) 17:58, 1 January 2010 (UTC)


 * We care because it ruins endgame and quite a bit of eotn. No class should be able to solo several dungeons on HM. Although it has brought quite a bit of ease to some of the dungeons by being able to purchase a run, very few ppl actually from groups for them anymore. It's not just SF but 600s as well.


 * Concerning the economy, Anet shuts down goldseller accounts when they can, they should as well address SF. Concerning discount merchants, lps arnt not exactly considered currency. The ectos permas and 600 can farm so easily contribute more that the lp issue. After all, discount merchants where around before UWSC using SF.


 * The majority of the game? You said before that non-sin primaries are the ones who have a problem with sf. By that logic 9 of the 10 professions i.e. the majority want it nerfed.


 * You excluded the money made for dungeon runs. Also, in UW you can average about 1 ecto per 10 mins ish. But besides that, to many people supporting the nerf, the issue isnt farming, its endgame content. You need to have a 600 or a perma just to play.


 * Consider SCs that rely heavily on permas. No party of 2 players and 6 henchies/heroes is going to clear UW in 23 mins. The SC is much faster and as such yields more on a per hour basis.


 * Permas dont effect me? Have you ever seen a Warrior tank many high end areas? Have you seen higher end game content that fairly accepts any profession? The role of a sin and 600s are more than exceeding the usefulness of other professions. This unbalance is ruining gameplay.


 * LOL you suggest there is skill in perma? I perma myself and will tell you that with other classes farming is not as easy. Note that supporters of the nerf accuse those permas against it of being afraid to develop real skill or sucking if god-mode isnt enabled. At any rate, SF is extremely overpowered, consider similar leet skills: SB, VoS, OF, and MF. None of them even come close to SF's effectiveness. Because of that, non-perma classes tend to be left out of endgame roles. The "if you want in, role a perma" approach isnt what makes a game. It's being able to allow people to use diverse playing style, hence: role playing game.


 * By the logic in the corresponding point, socialism is great, people let it fail. And it's true, socialism fails because people let it fail, but the fact is that they continually let it fail, which makes socialist systems typically much weaker than capitalist ones. The same is true for SF, the people are making endgame fail by being lazy and using permas. Although players could technically be blamed for the system failing, it doesnt make the current system a success. I perma myself and i want this nerf. I and many others are sick of using the same 3 skills just to participate in endgame. I would love to be able to use my main and some of my other characters in these higher level areas.


 * I would contest that these builds are what led the community to change. Realistically, SF and 600s should be addressed before discord way. A 4man discordway build will fail in many areas a perma can solo.


 * SF does make sense for an assasin; however, at the moment the skill is unbalanced. You even state in your point that u'd like it to be for running and degen only, which would nerf the skill. I thought you were opposed to that? You also state that sins should be stealth, SF has made them tanks. All the more reason to nerf it.


 * This last point would not be a good idea. If you could only aggro bosses and maintain it indefinately, it would still be overpowered, but it would also ruin sins. Every class would be able to hold it indefinately and run anywhere they want in a semi-god mode. 71.127.89.192 22:04, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Recap from above, any class can farm YOU just need to learn how..... That is how we learned.... If ShadowForm is nerfed all bds, uw, fow, and many other farmers qiuit and not play ncsoft again...... Listen to US A-Net, we talk all the time about it in Temple of balthazar, LA, Kama, Vloxx............


 * Always a fun argument. Basically: yes, SF is overpowered. I recall the 55 build eventually being nerfed for similar reasons, in a way that kept it a possible option. I wouldn't mind a similar nerf on SF: keep it viable, but slightly decrease its power. Maybe it would be an option to add a prevention cost, like similar skills have (whenever an attack/spell is prevented, you lose 1 energy). Possibly to balance out the skill's recharge is lowered to 30 or so, making maintaining it more doable. Desired net result: the build can still tank, but only against limited numbers, or for a limited amount of time. Would still allow solo farming, but far less efficient (particularly killing Sliver Armor options if you can't agro a lot of enemies). In essence, a nerf is in place, but it would also be fair to keep the build possible to some extent in PvE. --Tenshi Samshel 12:24, 10 January 2010 (UTC)