User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Underpowered Skills/Mesmer/Archive 1

Energy drain is the point of this skill but its poor and conditional, the armor ignoring dmg is too low, skill recharge too high.


 * The funny thing is, you can freeze a foe with a -90% snare Hex inside of this and no one would really mind too much. While it's understandable that the Mesmer isn't supposed to ave AoE nukes like the Ele, at least SOME kind of damage buff is needed. Making it 2x stronger is a good start. Also consider sapping a max -10E per spell cast inside of it. It would be worth cutting the duration in half if the damage was given a 3x boost with a -10E penalty per spell cast. arredondo 23:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I have seen many suggestions on how to improve this skill. My two favourite ones were to do extra damage per point of energy removed (so if you don't use it against someone casting, it would be still as weak as it is now, but if it were used against someone casting, it would do a lot more damage), or to make the energy be stealed for the mesmer, not only drained (although then it would feel more like an Inspiration spell than a Domination one). I'm not that fond of just increasing the damage, lowering energy cost or alikes. Erasculio 00:25, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * TBH, I'd almost prefer to just make the energy loss unconditional (albeit perhaps slightly lower) per tick. [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 03:01, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Personally i'd make it 10/1/20, and leave the rest as it is now. Otherwise, raise AOE to Nearby. Patccmoi 15:35, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Raise the AoE to in the area and it will still go unused... Maestro Ed 00:08, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What about making it interrupt spells or cause them to fail? -- Gordon Ecker 01:16, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Then you've made a mesmer version of Maelstrom. --Tankity Tank 01:07, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That's exactly what I was thinking :D. -- Gordon Ecker 02:56, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

IMO, buffing the damage and range would increase the popularity of Mesmers in PVE. This can be the staple damage skill for domination mesmers. If range is increased to area and damage is increased then energy loss should be decreased to make this skill more fair. --Shadetz X 12:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Another idea is to make the stats 10e, 1c, 5r. Currently it's 15/1/30. That way you can have a bunch of these buggers spinning around (especially under MoRecovery), forcing enemies to keep moving. No one could possibly say its overpowered even with those stats, but at least it might be worth bringing. --arredondo 17:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd agree with 15/2/5. If you give it so low recharge, energy must at least be the limitation (the same way Rodgort's Invocation dropped to 5s recharge but it has 25E as a balancing factor meaning that if attunes are stripped or it's interrupted you lose a big chunk of energy) and make it potentially interruptable, 1s in FC isn't easy at all (and 2s in fast cast is really not so bad). Since Domination has no attunement, 15E is fine. I'd say 15/2/5 personally would be very interesting. You could throw a lot around, but at the cost of a lot of energy. And it's not really pressuring people if they're not casting spells through so it's not THAT powerful to have many swirling around. But it would become very interesting for sure Patccmoi 14:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What if this skill applied a random condition on top of the e-denial and did so whenever a player used a skill, not just a spell. Even if that means doing no damage. I don't think this skill should ever be about AOE damage, but instead AOE pressure and something the likes we've never seen before. --Redfeather 09:30, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe it should be changed to.....> 15/1/20 "For 10 seconds, foes adjacent to this location suffer 5...12...14 damage each second. Chaos Storm drains 1...6...7 Energy whenever it strikes a foe casting a Spell. When Chaos Storm drains a foes energy Chaos Storm ends and all adjacent foes take 5..12..14 damage for each second chaos storm would have been in effect" This makes it more effective in PvE (the damage is all at once) and in PvP smart players will stop casting and move out of it and simply start casting again. Jigoku 19:02, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * So it ends after it drains energy? That seems weak, plus you are focusing waaaay too much on damage, I agree it shouldn't focus on damage, make this focus on energy. Maybe make it so it makes a foe caught in Chaos Storm loses a random amount of energy (within a range set by attribute) and maybe make it have a chance of interrupting the enemy (similar to maelstrom, but this would just plain interrupt them, regardless, but would be less reliable). Another way to improve this would be to improve its range to area, and make it have a faster recharge, and leave the rest as is.--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 20:43, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

This skill is called Chaos Storm but this doesn't cause any chaos, it makes people laugh instead. ;> I suggest one of the following changes.

Spell. Create a Chaos Storm at target foe's location..

For 10 seconds, foes adjacent to this location suffer 5...12...14 damage each second and suffer -1...-3 Energy degeneration each second. Chaos Storm steals 1...3...5 Energy whenever it strikes a foe casting a Spell.

For 5 seconds, foes adjacent to this location suffer 8...15...20 damage and lose 1...2...3 Energy each second.

For 10 seconds, foes adjacent to this location suffer 5...12...14 damage each second. Affected foes suffer from a a random condition for 5 seconds. Chaos Storm drains 1...6...7 Energy whenever it strikes a foe casting a Spell.

For 5 seconds, foes nearby to this location suffer 8...15...20 damage each second and move, attack & activate skills 10...20% slower. Chaos Storm drains 1...6...7 Energy whenever it strikes a foe casting a Spell.

For 7 seconds, foes adjacent to this location suffer 8...15...20 damage, whenever foes use a skill in Chaos Storm, they suffer 10...55 chaos damage and lose 1...2 Energy. if still underpowered reduce recharge time 87.189.201.201 11:20, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It still causes chaos. No caster would want to stand inside Chaos Storm for the entire duration.  Lightblade 19:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Not more than standing in any other aoe spell, sidestep and laugh. You don't have to defend this terrible skill, people don't use this for a reason. 87.189.203.198 12:19, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Decent but just not strong enough. I like that it's an action interrupt, but 20 seconds is too long, and the secondary effect is pretty limited (signet delay). Recharge a bit lower (15 seconds?) might just be enough to make this an option, given that it's the most flexible of the 10 cost interrupts. Compare to Power Spike, Power Leak, Power Lock which are more limited in scope but pack much better effects, Web of Disruption, which can interrupt skills and gets a second random interrupt (and acts as a hex) or to Leech Signet which can interupt actions, costs nothing and returns energy on spell interrupt. --Epinephrine 18:39, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 15 s recharge to equalize it with Power Lock sounds good. ~Seef II &lt;☎|۞&gt; 21:46, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, give it a 15 seconds recharge and a disable duration for signet of 13 seconds just like Power Lock Aljazya 07:19, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I think the damage needs to be raised or the energy cost should be lowered.-- §  Eloc   §  06:05, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Its not a damage skill and the effect is strong enough to warrant a 15e cost. Why do you think it should be changed? &mdash; Skuld 11:07, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well what else should it do? Without the damage, it only interupts, and I can find alot better interupts which cost alot less and do more than this.-- §  Eloc   §  11:08, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You obviously mis the point of this skill, its AoE interupt ~ Kurd [[Image:Kurdsig.png]] 11:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, but what are the odds that it will interupt anyone else.-- §  Eloc   §  11:11, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * BIG! it says in the area, that almost a whole agro circle ~ Kurd [[Image:Kurdsig.png]] 11:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Still, what are the odds it will interupt someone else?-- §  Eloc   §  11:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Pretty good, actually. Ever faced rit spike in HA, all those tiny corridors they're forced into? Stops the entire team with one cast if your timing doesn't stink. - Auron 11:22, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * See Te vs EW game 3 in Faction Championship for more details :P ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:17, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Where do I go to see this?-- §  Eloc   §  21:34, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see many people taking this skill anymore. It's kinda weak compared to other Domination skills now. Maybe it should be "In Earshot" --TimeToGetIntense 21:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * There aren't a lot of caster spikes being run. If those come back into the metagame Cry will immediately go back onto bars.  Cry is still really good, it just isn't relevant right now. -Ensign 19:37, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Needs a lower recharge imo, something along the lines of 2, or 5. You can't spam it anyways, but if the mesmer in the team sees a few spikes coming, he/she can effectively stop multiple. It'd be like Spiritual Pain. Spam a certain skill to hurt your foes badly, but at a high energy cost. Saph 15:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

2 or 5 recharge?! Sure, a Mesmer won't be able to spam it at will, but did you think of things like Mind Blast Eles? They wouldn't even need to put a point in that and would be freaking interrupt machines Patccmoi 16:07, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I did and it sucks, mind blast only gives you +5 energy if you have more energy than target foe, it has 2 se c recharge and you have to use it 3 times to get 15 energy for a single cry of frustration
 * You use Fire Attunement if you want to power non-Fire skills; on top of natural regen you have energy for a 15 energy skill every 6 seconds with energy to spare. I've powered Blinding Flash with Immolates mixed in, amongst other things. -Ensign 00:46, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Mind Blast + Fire Attunement gives you about as much energy as EProd. You can power pretty much whatever you want. I remember having fun doing 'prismatic eles' using Mind Blast + Fire Attune with Rodgort's, Eruption, Deep Freeze and BFlash. It's not really viable in PvP because of all the long cast time (well, likely various other reasons too =p) but i didn't even run into energy trouble. For a more serious build, we often ran E/Me Mind Blaster with Shatter Hex, Shatter Enchant and PLeak and using all of those on recharge, + fire nukes on top, was no issue. A well played Mind Blast with Fire Attune is the new eprod eles imo. All the energy you want to power whatever utility you'd like. The only requirement is having a target, so unlike EProds you can't sit out of fight to spam Heal Party Patccmoi 18:09, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Mind Blast is solid energy. I've seen Heal Party, Extinguish, Convert Hexes, Distortion, Rodgort's, Mirror (back when it was fast), and other random things powered by it. It is, however, mesmer-bait. Cry+Blast is interesting; we already run an E/Me with mindblast, might be worth putting on his bar. --72.211.155.160 18:53, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I use Cry of Frustration as my main interrupt when I need it in an area that has troublesome foes in PvE. I think that the skill serves its purpose and should not be changed. :) (Terra Xin 07:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC))
 * With a cost like that and a chance to interrupt other foes, I think a 5 second cast time is good. Even if your using heavy energy management, widespread caster interruption is becoming a must, and should be an option. This isn't like Maelstrom or something that is contious, and it cost more in energy and timing to make effective, a good cry of frustration could offer alot of remedies.  At the very least, it should be a 10 second recharge.--BahamutKaiser 06:25, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Not cast time, recharge. A 5 second recharge is justified by it's energy cost.  Not even Mind Blast ele can spam it at will, because Mind Blast requires energy to gain energy.  Lightblade 17:44, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 5 seconds is the lowest it should go, otherwise you could stop a whole team from using Res Sig several times in a row. Somehow 5 seconds seems a bit rediculous to me, though. I don't know why, but I always thought this was a good skill even at 20 recharge. On the issue of Mind Blast, You want to spam Rodgort's Invocation, which under attunement costs 16 energy, so you have to compromise with your utility and your damage unless you don't run Rodgort's Invocation. --TimeToGetIntense 02:34, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

It just plain fails the way it is, make it AoE and Nearby or Adjacent, just like Arcane Conundrum, this way it just fails at it's purpose. Corpselooter 19:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This -> Shatter Enchantment -> Shatter Delusions. Works well when you know someone only has one enchantment. --Deathwing 02:04, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It's still a very weak elite, and that combo is too fragile and costs too much energy to be worth it. I suggest halving its duration and recharge and reducing its cost to 5--it's much more flexible that way. --Ufelder 04:41, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Enchanter's Conundrum needs a mechanical rework. It is either a strong spiking skill or not good.  Both situations are not what you want for mesmers. -Warskull 04:28, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It's funny. It's like Arcane Conundrum is the elite version of this. :O --Redfeather 23:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I've tried to make several builds with it and almost always another elite could've been better for the slot. The problem is that it costs so much and the recharge is poor for an elite. I suggest that the stats change from 15/2/20 to 10/2/10. Shatter Delusions does only 12 less damage and it is a 5/1/10 spell, so for using your elite slot (along with the bonus of slow enchant casts), this is a good change. If it seems too strong after tests, make it a 50% spell snare instead of 100%. arredondo 23:53, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * This skill is actually pretty deceptive, and it acts as the bread-and-butter of my Mesmer's default PvP build. One thing that I find with Mesmers is that they strive on predictability.  Once you cast Enchanter's Conundrum and begin removing their enchantments, chances are, the first thing your target will want to do is enchant himself.  So, with a carefully anticipated Power Spike, followed by Shatter Delusions, your target finds himself desperate, confused, lacking enchantments, and down by a great deal of health in mere seconds.  This can be potentially devastating to quite a good variety of targets.  Although, it's very risky to build around, and simply not worth bringing by itself.  Enchantments with a 1/4 casting time pretty much spit in this skill's face.  Either adding up to one second to the casting time of Enchantments instead of doubling them would make this worth the risk, or reducing the recharge would make it worth bringing.  Oh yes, and don't even get me started on other associated risks brought on by being a Mesmer hex.  Vyldan 21:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * For 15 energy this is a joke. Most of the game's enchant spells are prot spells or dervish stuff, and most of them have casts of 0.25s - 0.75s: there's hardly any noticable effect. If you cast this on a derv or monk, chances are they're already enchanted, and will still be well after your 10 seconds is up. Initial effect should probably remove an enchant, for 15 energy, maybe ALL enchants. Damage should be brought into line with backfire or power spike. Some of these Mesmer elites make me sad :( Maestro Ed 23:55, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I've done a lot of Power Spike/Shatter Delusions/Backfire/Frustration/etc. combos with this skill and it is still a way too much energy spent with a slow recharge for what it does. It is simply not a good skill right now. --arredondo 02:33, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Any elite which depends on other spells (enchant removal in this case) better have a good effect and this just doesn't. Mega-useless atm.
 * It's costly and conditional, so how about 5r? love, Aran 05:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Fix the fact that if 8 people use it twice on the same person, the ending effect activates 16 times. Try it =D then give it a buff.--72.74.237.104 03:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

The skill needs to be changed to make it elite worthy, keep the energy cost, cast, and recharge but make it affect adjacent foes and at least make it remove an enchantment upon application, cause the caster of any new enchantments targeting foe within 10 seconds, a small amount of damage (nothing above 50 damage) and if the affected is not under an enchantment at end, they take damage (similar to how it is now) this might make it worthy of elite status--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 00:53, 3 October 2007 (UTC)


 * This thing is horrible, I mean, this is limited to one foe and only enchantment spells, wile arcane conundrum effects all spells and adjacent foes, that's ridiculous. The addition of damage on the end is backhanded, it's like, since this is 15% as useful as the normal skill equivalent, you deal damage if you manage to remove any enchantments they are using when this ends.


 * This would have to be Area wide in order to even stand a shadow of a chance, or better perhaps nearby, and 200% casting speed reduction, this way, though it focuses on a reduced number of skills, it is twice as potent. But really, this kind of skill makes you wonder how competant the designers are.--BahamutKaiser 06:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * How about have it disable any enchantments the target casts for like 20-30 seconds instead of the cast time thing. This way, they don't want to cast enchantments, but if they don't they'll take a chunk of damage. More importantly, you could disable some key skills on some characters. Skill disables are proven to be very strong so I think it would be viable, but might need a duration nerf if that happened. --TimeToGetIntense 17:07, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

LMAO I LOVE you guys give this skill a boost and i SWEAR i will get my gold cape i play this in GvG insta kill on all frenzied wars heavy spike after infuse on monk etc this skill is soooo powerfull that if u have a brin u win almost every GvG with it. Consider the fact that it can aply 216 damage plus deepwound with 1/4 cast plus fast cast and then boost this skill so i can get in top 10 with 4 heros on my team! Have fun guys...

Well Placed 4th in tourny boost the skill i want my cape also i want to see monk use rof wich completely counters the spike as is so no wories there. Would make it interesting with just adding adgecent range yet not adding any damage, still not over kill spikie but adds more pressure for the 20 second recharge. Makes it comparable to e surge wich is 90 area damage so yeh.. Think about it and plz post back IZZY.

Good skill but way too easily countered. with the added boost to patient spirit this skill becomes useless. Mabe if for 1 second no enchants could be cast on foe then it would be nice i dont think adjacent damage would change anything.

Needs a little stat tweaking, lowering the energy cost to 5 would be sufficient considering the lackluster power of most signets. or you could be crazy and change it to something like 5/1/12 "For 6 seconds the next signet target foe fails; Whenever ignorance causes a signet to fail target foe's and all that foes allies have that signet disabled for X seconds" Stop them signet spikes in their tracks! :D Also, am I the only one who forgets this skill exists from time to time? oh the irony! Jigoku 01:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * no i forget about it too, i only use it against warriors when theyre about to heal, anywhere else its just too conditional. in pvp you cant just know that the enemy use signets, and if they dont you have wasted a skillslot. In pve this skill is a waste even if every enemy should spam signets. --Cursed Angel 00:03, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * how about make it an AoE =O, like adjacent or something to go with the high cost <_<, or maybe reduce the cost to 10 and increase duration by 10 seconds :o Aljazya 07:22, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I feel that this skill needs a buff. At the moment even if you catch a foe casting a spell it deals too little damage to be considered a punishment. In fact, with the conditions met overload deals the same damage as an ice spear (both deal 74 damage at 16 attribute on foes with 60 armor) with the latter dealing unconditional damage and is spammable (with some energy return with attunement skills). I suggest changing this skill to something like 'Target foe takes 5...17...20 damage. If that foe was casting a spell, you deal +5...41...50 damage and steal 2...5...6 energy. Anyone else have a suggestion? --Shadetz X 23:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * 10/.25/5. If target foe is casting a spell, he takes 100..400% of the energy cost in damage and the spell takes an extra 15..75% of the energy cost seconds to recharge.


 * Instead of interrupting the skill, you deal damage and make it take longer to recharge, depending on the energy cost (seems like an Overload this way ^^). Would be quite punishing on 25 energy cost spells (100 damage and around 18 more seconds to recharge) but not so powerful against 5-10E stuff, and decent against 15E. And i don't think the longer recharge is so bad considering you don't actually interrupt the skill, so it goes through when you use Overload. If it's hard to code because of the conditional of 'spell takes longer to recharge' without it actually being interrupted, and having potential issues if target gets Overload and then interrupted, etc., you could also make it an hex like this:

10/.25/5. If target foe is casting a spell, he's hexed with Overload and cannot be interrupted. When target foe completes his spell, he takes 100..400% of the energy cost in damage and the spell takes an extra 15..75% of the energy cost seconds to recharge. Patccmoi 00:36, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * i liked the first proposal better. ¬.¬ would pwn meteor bathtubbers and balth aura smiters. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 00:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * 10/.50/3. Spell. If target foe was casting a spell, you deal 11..35..49 damage, steal 0..4..5 energy, and the foe's spell takes 0..4..5 more seconds to recharge.  If the foe was not casting a spell, you lose 5 energy.  Give it some utility, instead of just damage it can be used for mild shutdown and energy denial.  [[Image:User GD Defender sig.png]]| GD Defender  /  contribs 01:12, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * .50 cast time? Doesn't gw not support any half second casts?
 * wow, that's uber. it still kinda looks balanced, though it might be a bit overpowered. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 01:14, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I was in the process of changing it but you conflicted me. The penalty makes it look balanced but I still think it's too easy to meet the condition...  and also scaling in reverse like that = fail.  -4 at 12 and -0 at 16? lulz.  That look better?  [[Image:User GD Defender sig.png]]| GD Defender  /  contribs 01:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * sry :) i'd set the e-loss if you miss the spell to 5. 1/4s standard cast is a bit too short, imo. i'd set it to 1/2s or 3/4, so with 11 fc it's roughly 1/4 again. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 01:35, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm... I've gotta say that I agree with you, but increasing cast poses a dilemma.  It's a twitch concept (due to penalty) but increased cast would make it even harder to twitch with.  You would energy suicide extremely quickly if you failed to twitch important, semi-spammable skills like LoD, which would be more difficult with a .50 base cast.  It would still be worth it as a mini-Diversion while pleak and pdrain are recharging though, IMO.  [[Image:User GD Defender sig.png]]| GD Defender  /  contribs 01:46, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * that's right, but with a 1/4 base cast, 11 fc will reduce the actual cast time to .15s. you'd only get the penalty if you used the skill by accident. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 11:46, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The proposed skill is not worth it. You have a seriously clumsy interrupt which costs 5 energy if you hit, does mediocre damage when it does and does not interrupt. And if you miss its 15 energy, its as if mesmers have inspiration unnerfed. The original overload is weak but still better than this. My suggestion for this skill is to remove the recharge completely and make it do a bit more damage.
 * So I'm guessing you missed the extra recharge time and the fact that that it steals energy, meaning they're out 5 energy and their skill takes a few seconds longer to recharge. It's also not an interrupt, because 10e/3s would be on par with PD.  Good mesmers shouldn't miss anyway, and if you do that's a risk you chose to take.  [[Image:User GD Defender sig.png]]| GD Defender  /  contribs 06:54, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * (indent reset) My suggestion: 5/0.25/5, Spell. Deal  damage to target foe.  If target foe is activating a Skill, that foe takes an additional  damage and you steal 5 Energy if that skill was a Spell. Basically, Power Return if you don't want to interrupt and let a spell through, but hits the foe hard enough, and pays you back if you succeed.  It's not going to be on the level of Power Spike, which hurts a lot these days, nor is it going to deny as much as Power Leak.  Remember, letting spells through in GvG isn't to be taken lightly, especially ones as important as Bsurge and LoD.  In PvE, who really cares, you can protspirit your tank, slap Backfire on the mob and punish it more with a buffed Overload.
 * Regarding earlier suggestions: scaling is linear, a 11..35 scaling from 0..12 domination would go from and you'd probably need Overload to be a hex if it sticks and disables the opponent's Spell.  Also, there are no 0.5 s activation spells in the game, Izzy said animations won't allow it.  (0.5 s attacks, however, actually activate in 0.25 s and include afterswing.) ~Seef II &lt;☎|→&gt; 22:24, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What about daze or Arcane Conundrum/Migraine? That emulates 1/2s cast times for 1/4s spells. --68.111.79.166 14:02, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * nah, just fc-ing a 3/4 spell is enough. it's the 1/4-cast animation once you get below .51s cast time. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 18:17, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Um. Overload. 5|1/4|3 - If target foe is casting a spell, that foe takes 10...60 damage and that skill will take an additional 0..1..1 seconds to activate. - Is that good enough? Then you can follow up with an interrupt if you're successful. (Terra Xin 10:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC))
 * I use to follow this up with powerspike to first damage the foe for casting a spell and then interupting the same spell and cause more damage, this isnt underpowered.--Cursed Angel 00:06, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * So because one person uses it, its good? Id rather a mesmer have more interrupts than waste a skill slot on a conditional damage for an interrupt spike. Overload just needs a change, its one of those skills that are too conditional and lack synergy, except with PSpike, yay, which seem to plague the mesmer.--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 20:57, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

This skill will drain far less energy than Power Leak, assuming it's not removed. Despite having a lower recharge by 5 seconds, I think the Elite status would ask for something a bit more powerfull...If this skill were changed so it causes Dazed and then rebalanced (longer recharge, etc) I would use it all the time, but then again it would likely be overpowered :P -Erasculio 01:30, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * How about just increasing the energy degen to -4? By my calculation, Power Leak would still drain more energy even with that buff. --Ufelder 06:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Personally i'd reduce the cooldown to something like 5s. Then at least you could use it a lot. Or make it so that the effect is not a hex, but that might be overpowered (don't really think so though). Right now though i just can't see at all why you'd want to use this over say Power Block. Patccmoi 14:19, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah this guy could use a boost, I like the recharge rout more then most things, as energy denial is very powerful, but with recharge it would take work to keep it up on someone so it's safer then say power leak. ~Izzy @-&#39;
 * Possibly gain +2 energy regen if they're hexed with Power Flux? <;small>&;mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.10.100.245 (talk &bull; contribs) 06:08, 17 July 2007 (UTC).
 * I'd suggest -10 degen and a hit to the duration and recharge. Even 5 seconds of -10 degen barely evens the denial out with Power Leak's, but the effect would be really scary and worthy of eliteness.  Since with power leak you might waste some of the denial... e-degen can lock you out of casting altogether on your low set.  Agreed that this and probably Power Leech too need a buff, but making the numbers retarded like what I'd do is probably not the right way. ~Seef II &lt;?&gt; 17:39, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I like this suggestion a lot, however -10E degen for 10s equals a loss of 18E on a target *and* a prevention of 13E regen that a 4E pip foe would usually earn naturally. Overall that's a net loss of 31E potentially every 10s if an interrupt is successful. Not that I don't like it, but all things must be properly considered. arredondo 03:42, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Elite Hex Spell. If target foe is casting a Spell or Chant, that Skill is interrupted and for 4...9...10 seconds, if that foe casts a spell, that spell fails and target foe loses 5...17...20 Energy. --Deathwing 17:43, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The use for the current Power Flux is try and lockdown a target who is already extremely low in energy. This is somewhat opposite of Power Leak in that with leak you would rather punish someone with a higher amount of energy. However, since it is so easily removed it doesn't really lockdown that well. I don't think Power Flux is designed to be spammed as an interrupt and designed more to lockdown. To accomplish this, it would be best to increase the energy pip reduction. I initially thought about having something obscene, like -9 energy pips since this would just start dropping the target's reserve. I still don't think something that high seems completely imbalanced because the target can still swap down and hide the energy, resulting in lockdown. However, it can still be removed by others. Monks also aren't as likely to be hit by the interrupt since if you get hit by Leak or Block as a monk you're probably going down anyway. Power Block synergizes with Power Leak since you can PB, wait, and then leak them when they're unblocked. Obviously -9 is probably too strong, but that was just an extreme example. If the cooldown was reduced it would just be like throwing around some gimp e-denial which drains less than Energy Burn, does no damage, is an elite, and requires my constant attention to maximize the effectiveness. Paying 10e to drain 7e (at best) seems underpowered as an elite skill.--Miranzor 23:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree this skill has potential due to it's purpose being slightly different to Power Leak. Like it's been said above, Power Leak does indeed just feel stronger since it's effect generally gives you the desired result of shut down/inhibition regardless of what energy level the target is currently at.
 * With all that in mind, why not add a small energy deduction as well the -2 hex? Power Leak scales 5..17..20 in deduction. Power Flux could scale for 1..8..12 or something similar in addition to the -2. At a 10 second recharge with functionality like that, this would truly become elite worthy. If not, you could always make the deduction energy steal or/and the -2, +2 for the caster, but I'm sure you'd all agree that would be insanely good... Fro 19:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Make the secondary effect (whatever it should be) independent of the interrupt, perhaps? The combination of an interrupt and weak-but-unconditional e-denial seems like it's worth an elite slot. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 03:16, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think changing it to to 5e 5r should fix it. Might need some testing, but I dont believe this would be overpowered.--SiDima 13:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The previous suggestion of -10 energy regen is a good one. 10 seconds of -10 energy degen (which equals -6 on an energy bar) directly prevents the regen of 13.33 energy (on a caster), and causes loss of 20 energy. I'd make it more diversion-like: 6s duration, 12s recharge, energy degen scales from -2 to -10, causing a total loss/prevention of 12 + 8 = 20 energy on a caster. Maestro Ed 11:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * On further thinking, the -10 e-degen idea isn't bad. I had the hex stick for 5 seconds, which is roughly 16.67 energy denied over time - a 12-spec PLeak.  At 6 seconds that's 6 * -3.33 = 20 Energy over time, a 15-spec PLeak that's hard to get rid of.  Now that's elite-worthy, but imba if the current recharge is kept.  I'd like to see 5 or 6 s of -10 degen at 12 and 15 s recharges respectively.  I also like the idea of AoE, perhaps bring back a heyday Energy Surge sort of thing.  Remember, Cry of Frustration deals AoE damage on interrupt so this wouldn't be anything new:
 * 10/0.25/15, Spell. If target foe is casting a Spell or Chant, that Skill is interrupted and that foe loses  Energy.  For each point of Energy lost in this way, target foe and all foes in the area take  damage.  It's an active disruption that punishes Health and Energy, as opposed to the point-and-shoot EBurn and Surge.  This game needs more of that. ~Seef II &lt;☎|۞&gt; 10:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Elite Hex Spell. If target foe is casting a Spell or Chant, the Skill is interrupted and that foe and foes nearby lose 1...8 Energy and for 4...9...10 seconds, that foe has -5...-7 Maximum Energy. No doubt what i just posted is probably imba as it is, but just throwing out a possible idea. --(Problem. 02:15, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the reduction in recharge to 5 seconds is pretty powerful by itself, your effectively able to interrupt over twice as many spells, some matching adjustments would be for it to cause -4 energy degeneration for 5 seconds, and perhaps even lower the cost to 5 energy. With a lower cost and lower recharge it easily outperforms in simple interruption frequency and economic value, and with a cost like 5 energy, it doesn't matter as much that it doesn't match Power Leak in energy loss, more spells interrupted means more effects blocked and more energy discarded on failed attempts to cast.  Where this really hurts is if you discard a large amount of energy from a foes failed casting attemps, making it easy to eliminate their energy and droping their energy from 0 to -2 regeneration ensuring they don't get it back.--BahamutKaiser 05:58, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Grant the caster of this hex +2 energy regeneration when it works. A bit unorigional, but it would get this to see a bit of use as a passive Power Leech.

This is a skill that had been mentioned before in the archives, but I decided to bring it back with a suggestion on improving a bit the skill. How about changing it to, "Elite Hex spell. For 6 seconds, the next time target foe uses a skill, that skill is disabled for 10...30...35 seconds, Simple Thievery is replaced by that skill, and it uses your Domination attribute instead of its normal attribute"? It would become a mix between Diversion and Signet of Illusions, by allowing a Mesmer to disable one skill on his oponent's bar while using it himself with his own Domination Magic attribute. It would not be a random skill (like in the current Simple Thievery) nor limited to non-spells skills only, making it more useful than it is today. At the same time, we add one more "universal" counter like Diversion, with a higher recharge and smaller duration but with a powerful secondary effect (being able to use the skill). Erasculio 21:40, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Not a bad idea at all. Good use of this could allow for real good thievery and disabling key skills (for example BSurge or LoD). For a hex, I'd make it 10/1/10, the low cast time compared to Diversion could allow Mesmers to really time it exactly when they want to hit to get the desired skill. Could also make it an interrupt instead of an Hex, like this:


 * 10/1/5. Interrupt target foe. If that foe was using a skill, Simple Thievery is replaced by this skill for 10..30..35s and this skill uses your Domination attribute instead.


 * Would make it harder to get stuff that cast fast, but it would be even better at getting exactly what you want, and i don't think it would be overpowered at all when you think that you could've hit them with Power Block instead. I think i'd like it even more as the Interrupt version all in all. Patccmoi 15:48, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the idea of the stolen skill using your domination attribute is very nice, even though you'd almost be guarenteed to steal an attack skill that you can't use IF it retained its original functionality. :) Seriously though, the primary use I see for this skill currently is stealing res sigs and using them. Maestro Ed 10:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Erasculio's idea would be very very nice. But the non-spell only skill limit shoudl be removed, just like diversion. --Lumenil 22:20, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * /signed love, Aran 06:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Jigoku 01:11, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, adding a bit of craziness to the idea: instead of using the caster's Domination Magic attribute, have the skill stealing the attribute value of the target as well, like the skill Monkey See, Monkey Do does. So a mesmer using this skill on a Monk casting Heal Party at Healing Prayers 15 would be able to use Heal Party as if his own Healing Prayers were 15; a mesmer using this on a Dervish using Faithful Intervention at Mysticism 10 would be able to use Faithful Intervention as if his own Mysticism were 10; and so on. It would make little difference in PvP, but in PvE it would be a boon - those level 26 enemies who have Spiteful Spirit at Curses 18? A mesmer would be able to steal that spell and use it as if his own Curses were level 18. Erasculio 00:14, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

If this skill is reworked to act more like diversion, the proposed 10/1/10 would be incredibly overpowered. When factoring in Shame/Guilt and Diversion, a mesmer would be too good at preventing a target from casting and pre-veiling would be impossible since Thievery and Diversion could be cast back to back as necessary since both would have short recharge times. Simple Thievery would have to have a much longer recharge and equal cast time of Diversion, possibly 10/3/30, to prevent it from being overpowered, and even then it may synergize too well with Diversion and Shame. --Rururrur 09:53, 14 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Rururrur on the cast time and recharge. I think the idea is really good. It would definetly see play... I mean, the skills you normally try to Diversion would be pretty useful to be able to use at full spec. Word of Healing comes to mind. Also BSurge if you're running GoLE. It would be interesting to see Mesmers carrying around a Bow swap for when they steal DShot. This suggestion is just the kind of skill that would make Mesmer more fun and interesting. --TimeToGetIntense 00:36, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

This skill needs to be changed, since this skills really doesnt work well as counter for spirits. 10 energy and only 79 (at 16 dom, which is really high for a mesmer to run imo) AoE armor ignoring damage isnt really all that great, there are better AoE spirit counters since spirits don't have really high armor that requires armor-ignoring damage and the other skills that can be counters can also be used for just plain AoE damage, this can't. So maybe it could look like this.
 * ''"10 Energy, 1/4 sec Cast Time, 15 sec Recharge
 * ''If target foe is casting a Spell or a Chant, that Skill is interrupted and foe suffers from exhaustion.
 * ''If target foe is attacking, that foes attack skills are disabled for 2...5..6 sec."
 * Maybe something like that so it has versatility.--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 21:56, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * What about lowering the damage, making the AoE unconditional, making it deal double damage vs. spirits (or all summoned creatures) and making it interrupt rituals? -- Gordon Ecker 08:32, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The only thing about that, is it is still very limited, making it only good against ritualists and maybe a few rangers, plus there are better ways to kill and interrupt rituals, so Id rather see something that doesnt involve spirits/rituals, since spirits/rituals is such a limited scope, and will still be as unused and suffer the same problem as vocal minority.--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 16:53, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Not viable since the devastating nerf of the january 2007 update. 6 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I forgot how long this takes to recharge without a spirit in range. What about lowering the recharge as well? -- Gordon Ecker 04:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)


 * No matter what, it will still be a gimmick skill, not even changing the damage to chaos instead of armor ignoring will change the fact this skill is just too narrow to become something other than the gimmick it was for awhile, Id rather see something a little more interesting, useful, and a lot more flexible.--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 20:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * One of these changes would make this skill better:
 * Spiritual Pain: Spell. Target foe takes 6...49...60 damage. All other nearby foes above 50% health take 15...63...75 damage, and this Skill recharges instantly if it hits a Spirit, Pet or Summoned Creature.
 * Spiritual Pain: Spell. Target foe takes 15...63...75 damage. If that foe was attacking, all other nearby foes take 6...49...60 damage, and this Skill recharges instantly if it hits a Spirit, Pet or Summoned Creature.
 * Spiritual Pain: Spell. Target foe takes 15...63...75 damage. If that foe is adjacent to an ally, all other nearby foes take 6...49...60 damage, and this Skill recharges instantly if it hits a Spirit, Pet or Summoned Creature.
 * Spiritual Pain: Signet. Target foe takes 15...63...75 damage. If that foe is near a Spirit, Pet or Summoned Creature, all other nearby foes take 15...63...75 damage and this Skill recharges instantly. 87.189.228.194 12:25, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

This elite skill is far too conditionnal to be used. It only works on warrior and paragons. In Prophecies it would be good only against one of the six classes, and on Factions only against one of eight classes ! At least Empathy works against any foe attacking (even against casters), and Backfire works against all spellcasters (so against mesmer, elementalist, ritualist, monk, necromancer, and a little against assassin and dervish). So I would suggest to change the way VoR works so that it triggers when an attack skill is used. That would make it useful against more classes (warrior and paragon, but also ranger, dervish and assassin).

But even with this change VoR will still be lacking compared to Spoil Victor. SV does a little less damage than VoR, but triggers on any attacks or spells, have a better cast time and a far better reload time. VoR reload time should at least be reduced to 10 seconds too. (Trouveur 09:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC))
 * This skill wouldn't even be used if it were non-elite. Backfire and the upcoming Cacophony simply have more uses than this... making it trigger upon attack skills would help a lot, indeed, though I fear we will invoke the wrath of many RA-goers this way :p Saph 09:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This does 120 damage unconditionally (never mind targets health like SV), either shutting up or killing adrenaline based warrior. Besides comparing SS or SV to any Mesmer skill is blasphemy Biz 10:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That still suxes. Backfire does more damage against any caster (so against five classes and also partially against assa and dervish too) and it isn't elite. VoR is an elite, does less damage than Backfire and only against warrior and paragon. Beside, for shutting down a warrior blinding skills are much more useful, and also work on other attackers classes. (Trouveur 10:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC))
 * At 15 spec it deals only 20 damage less but lasts twice as long as backfire while costing less and casting quicker. - [[Image:User HeWhoIsPale sig.PNG]] HeWhoIsPale 14:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * At the heavy cost of being an elite. That is not worth it. Longer duration means little since in PvP an hex like VoR will be rapidly removed and in PvE foes die fast. That doesn't outweight the fact that VoR works only on two classes whereas Backfire works on seven. (Trouveur 19:07, 3 August 2007 (UTC))
 * I agree, this skill is really too conditional too be used much. I think that it should be made to work against all attack skills.

How about this change?


 * Visions of Regret (Elite Hex Spell). For 5...17...20 seconds, target foe takes 8...34...40 damage whenever that foe uses an attack Skill, and takes an additional 16...67...80 whenever that foe uses an adrenal Skill.
 * 10e/2c/20r

This way it does some annoying damage to any physical class using attack skills, but the damage really hurts when adrenal skills are used. --arredondo 16:07, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That's still underpowered. Your version is basically an elite Empathy which lasts a little longer, reloads in 20 seconds instead of 10, does less damage and works only on attacks skills instead of any attacks, with the only benefit of being able to do additionnal damage when adrenal skills are used. Not worth an elite at all.
 * I still prefer my suggestion :


 * Visions of Regret (Elite Hex Spell). For 5...17...20 seconds, target foe takes 30...102...120 damage whenever that foe uses an attack Skill.
 * 10e/2c/10r (Trouveur 19:07, 3 August 2007 (UTC))
 * Stop it, both of you! :D
 * Actually I like if it did empathy damage+bonus damage if they use an adrenaline skill.--Redfeather 19:41, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed: Change it to Empathy Plus: 15-45 damage per attack & 15-75 per attack skill (stacking, obviously). Maestro Ed 23:59, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's obvious from the skill description that it wasn't supposed to be a Backfire for all physical foes. You simply won't get Arena.net to take away its adrenal focus. That is the point of the skill from their perspective. My suggestion makes it work exactly the same for adrenal skills, but at least it has some damage built in for non-adrenal attacks. I'm simply trying to expand on what they want the build to do, not remake it entirely. --arredondo 02:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem with it is that it's an elite hex with a 20s recycle. The effect is nasty, but do you really expect to get this to stick? --72.211.155.160 18:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

How about this:

Visions of Regret Elite Hex Spell. For 10 seconds the next time that foe attack that foe loses all adrenaline and takes 50...135 damage 10/1/10. So it's basically an Ineptitude but adrenaline loss instead of blind.
 * Blind is far less punishing than "lose all adrenaline" because blindness can be removed, while adrenaline needs to be rebuilt. That version of VoR is absurdly imbalanced. 142.151.168.73 21:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * How so? If it hits and drains adrenaline right after you use Hammer Bash, there would only be the damage drawback. But if you hit and they were about to use Backbreaker, it'd mess them up very badly. It'd take a lot more timing and skill to use then Ineptitude; because it's much less general. RitualDoll 03:36, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You guys know you can just Blackout a Warrior to kill all his adrenaline, right? That said, I don't think it would be a bad move to go with the "lose all adrenaline" idea. --TimeToGetIntense 17:30, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

in PvE
From a strictly PvE standpoint: not a bad Spell, but I don't think it'd hurt to have this do the extra damage for each empty skill slot on target's bar. Obviously, this doesn't affect PvP at all unless someone's going in to gimp himself or his team. Many monsters in GW:EN have a fully-loaded skillbar, so it's not like this would be gaining a huge boost. Just a thought. ~Seef II &lt;☎|۞&gt; 21:46, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I have the feeling that you don't consider that spells and skills are different. People rarely have 8 spells on their bar as there is usually at least on signet and sometimes one stance. It is even worse for attacking classes that can have no spells --Faena 07:34, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure Seef meant empty skill slots in addition to the skill's current effects. A lot of monsters have a number of empty slots on their skill bars. It would also increase the damage against pets, minions and spirits. -- Gordon Ecker 02:58, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It would make sense and it would really help mesmers out in PvE. =P So...I'm betting they won't do it. For those same reasons. xP RitualDoll 01:53, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Ah come on you're kidding me, this skill in Fast Cast line? For start: "Whenever a spell is interrupted, ALL your spells are recharged". Let's spice it up. Even like this, the skill is still not worth taking, but at least it's starting to resemble something.Servant of Kali 07:05, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * seems like pve-only to me. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 23:11, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Or that skill is instantly recharged and you gain 100% of the energy cost of that skill. You're spending 10 energy anyway to be able to not have skills interupted, is it really worth paying 10 energy for this, and then twice the skills energy cost? Mantra of resolve at 0 inspiration is better than this, as is mantra of concentration. Horrible skill. Maestro Ed 10:38, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * yup. it's shitty. if anyone can use this, it's monks in pve who know they will have interrupters up their asses. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 11:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It was discovered as soon as nightfall was released that this skill is directly inferior to Mantra of Resolve in terms of energy lost due to interrupts, and the only positive thing this skill would have is to counter niche skills like Distracting Shot or Power Block. For a Mesmer skill under the fast casting attribute... it's also not reliable. I would like to see a unique change made to this skill, how about "5|1/4|3 - For 5...15 seconds, the next time you are interrupted or knocked down while activating a skill, that skill will recharge immediately and you gain 1 energy for each recharged skill?" But if anything, the recharge and cost should be lowered. (Terra Xin 07:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC))
 * I can't even think of a way to make this skill better it needs a complete rework. Jigoku 00:53, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * On second thought maybe make this skill 5/1/5 "For 0..60 seconds whenever your spells are interrupted you regain the energy cost of that spell and that spell is instantly recharged" Now that would make Dali proud. Jigoku

That seems like a pretty effective fix, even if it was only a set amount of energy, or a certain percent of the skills cost, with the energy returning it would be alot better.

Though still, I don't see how a mesmer is a significant target for interruption... especially if he is investing in fast casting.--BahamutKaiser 06:29, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That is so true, mesmers is never the target for interuption, and this skill is in fast casting so why the hell would you need a skill like this for anyway when you cast spells fast enough to not be interupted, besides that this doesnt even prevent interuption, it just recharges the spell that was interupted. I'd say that first this needs to be moved to inspiration so that monks and elementalist can use it (maybe this was the reason why it ended up in fast casting) and then either reduce the energy cost to 5 or make it give back energy--Cursed Angel 00:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Seconded, move it to inspiration, this skill could be good for casters, especially with all the caster hate out there, and it wouldn't be overpowered since it shouldn't give back too much energy (I do think it should give some energy back, not much though).--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 01:44, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * People barely ever use spells that prevent interruption so I don't think this one will be any different if it is changed or moved to Inspiration. There's already some pretty decent options but its really just not worth the slot. I mean, look at Mantra of Concentration. It lasts basically forever so you can put it right back up when the would be interrupt does happen and with a 20 second cooldown you can do this quite often. I don't see how you could be interrupted if you don't play stupid, so we really don't need skills like this if we're not even using Mantra of Concentration, imo. These skills just aren't worth the slot, You can cancel cast to get around interrupts and just use skills that do things. In fact, Glyph of Lesser Energy allows you to cancel cast for free, so that's probably the most effective anti-interrupt skill there is. --TimeToGetIntense 17:23, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Why does this skill even exist? Shouldn't be in the 'Underpowered Skills' discussion, it should be in a 'Useless Skills' discussion. Saph 09:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not this skill that needs a buff, it is signets in general. This skill is like a 15>50 mod that only works on staffs. The mod isn't that bad itself, but buffing damage on a staff is almost pointless. Same thing with this skill. Skill isn't THAT bad, but most signets are just crap. --Deathwing 09:51, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * FC applies to signets too. A mesmer that specs correctly in FC (10) casts his signets faster enough, he doesn't need another skill that makes Signets casting even faster therefore this skill is totally useless in FC attribute imo it should be in another attribute like Inspiration, it would make more sense. Besides its cost/recharge/duration is meh, it doesn't help, it should last longer. But anyway the purpose of this skill is unappropriate for a mesmer.  Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 10:02, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

5 energy and a couple seconds extra on the duration would be a great help for the few builds which can use this.. but it needs skills worth using with it &mdash; Skuld 14:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Since FC affects signet use speed, what does this do now? Does it allow signet use speed to go close higher than what FC? --Redfeather 19:44, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It does, 1 sec cast signets to 1/4 or something. &mdash; Skuld 19:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Of course it does, but i think mesmers have enough things to put on their bar without having to bother with this skill. Just like if you were running this to use your Rez Sig faster, which nobody does.(never saw it anyway)  Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 07:19, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Signet of pious light spam = fun :p &mdash; Skuld 11:13, 4 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This skill really needs it's duration lengthened for the amount of energy spent in to it and for it's mediocre effect. Jigoku 00:38, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Since symbolic strike uses the amount of signets you have for power, why not change this skill, so that it reduces the recharge of all your skills by a small percentage for each signet you have equipped, or something like that, granted, it would still only really find use in all signet builds, but........--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 04:02, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Move to Inspiration Magic & reduce energy cost. 87.189.199.129 20:42, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

This skill really needs a buff. I mean let's look at the energy cost for it, because of that the energy gain when using a signet is pretty useless. And since builds mostly have not more then 2 signets of something the this skill is a waste for an elite slot and for use for just a bit of energy. People aren't mostly that high in fast casting at. And then the recharge for this skill! 30 seconds for just that. Way to high. Maybe it should be something like 5e cost, 20 recharge and maybe lower duration to balance but not below 10 seconds. InfestedHydralisk  20:10, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It is so specialized an elite, that it requires a dedicated build just to mae it worth bringing (and even then it's likely gimmicky). Bring the recharge down to 20 seconds so that at max level it comes closer to being up at all times. It still won't be used a lot, but it deserves a boost like this. arredondo 00:07, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You should know. You made the only build that incorporates this skill. I don't like how this relates to scribes insight... ugly skill for an elite. :P
 * Definitely gets my vote for the most useless elite skill in the game. It goes against the idea of signets, signets are skills which don't require energy, so why design an elite skill, around giving you energy when you use one? This skill just needs to be dropped in favor of a new elite skill.--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 04:15, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It is one of them skills that make no sense. You need a full skill bar of signets for this skill to do anything, but guess what? If you have a full skill bar of signets, you don't need the energy from this skill. Same with Archer's Signet. --Deathwing 22:59, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Reduce recharge time to 20. 87.189.229.209 22:53, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "This skill just needs to be dropped in favor of a new elite skill.--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 04:15, 5 November 2007 (UTC)" That's the best idea posted anywhere on here... How about they throw out the bad skills and design new ones? Sure, they already released the game with the content, but they added new content for free for PvE so why not? --TimeToGetIntense 17:25, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, don't be mad because I am making the list even longer. :D This skill may not be weak, but I feel it doesn't really have a 'pick me to do this!' appeal. I made a suggestion to change it a while ago on some forums and people thought the suggestion was pretty neat so I'm a gonna post it here. I hope that's cool with everyone. :D --Redfeather 06:40, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

''For x seconds, target moves 50% slower. If this Hex is removed prematurely, that foe becomes crippled for x seconds.''

I always thought this skill needed an energy reduction or a stronger effect, the one you posted looks pretty promising. Maybe when the hex ends prematurely the target becomes crippled for the amount of time crippling anguish would've lasted. For example, Crippling anguish lasts 23 seconds it gets removed after 10 secondsthe target is crippled for the remaining 13 seconds crippling anguish would've lasted. Jigoku 19:55, 18 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Give it a recharge and energy reduction by 5 and either give it the hex equivalent of weakness, or give it a boost in degen, at least it could be more useful than as just a snare (as icy shackles is better for that than this probably ever will be)--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 22:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

,
It had its use with old Mantra of Persistence but now it could definitely use a buff. Maybe a bit lower recharge or longer duration? Same applies to Kitah's Burden.--PunkSkeleton 15:51, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It's pretty balanced now because of the HUGE amount of energy you can get with Auspicious Incantation. arredondo 23:58, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * How does buffing Auspicious Incantation make this better. Recharge for this skill is 45 seconds and all you get is a 10 second snare. With 12 illusion magic net energy gain a 5 (20-15)energy every 45 seconds hardly worth using it for energy management or snare. --Shadetz X 00:15, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The trick is to use both Ethereal Burden and Kitah's Burden with AI. That way you use one of them every 25s or so once AI recharges. The benefit is that you get a tremendous amount of energy to fuel the rest of your build without committing your elite, and you get two snares out of it.
 * It requires the three slots, so it is mainly for niche builds, but it does work very well. For instance, I've used Mantra of Recovery/AI/KB/EB to have a ton of energy available to spam the 10E Clumsiness spell every 2 seconds. Here is the build:
 * http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=454992
 * Your net energy gain calculations are way off. You use these skills by buffing Illusion AND Inspiration (for AI). The net cost is -20E per AI->KB or EB combo, but the net energy gained is 28E. Under MoRecovery, like in my build above, this means you can net close to 28E (and a 10s snare) every 15s. --arredondo 17:04, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Mantra of Recovery/AI/KB/EB are 4 skills on a skill bar. I'd use AI/Nightmare with wand/offhand 20/20 inspiration sets over that anyday. There are better ways to gain energy and snare than with KB and EB. IMO recharge should decrease to 30. --216.113.208.132 23:28, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I've been running a similar build but instead of Kitah's Burden and Ethereal Burden I use Conjure Nightmare and Lyssa's Balance (fast recharge enchantment removal). With Clumsiness, Frustration and Disruption skills together in a skill bar I do not find snares to be useful. I tried the build without health degen before and if you are up against a more knowledgable player they will know the best way to deal with a mesmer that relies on interrupts with no degen would be to do nothing and wait until you switch targets. Health degen on the target actually creates panic and make them make irrational choices(Silly Assasins). With Lyssa's Balance you can be very pesky for those protection monks with rapid enchantment removal and your build won't get ruined by Holy Veil (Strip Veil before hexing target). You can also use it to strip fast self heals like FN and Mystic Regeneration. --Shadetz X 23:07, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I guess I'm not good enough with mesmer to see a significant energy gain here, but I see 7 or 8 energy return on top of a 15 energ investment. And every 45 seconds pretty much says this isn't going to be slowing down, or granting energy very often.  Now it does slow, and if it is removed at least your getting energy back, but 45 seconds...... that's just punishing, and dual copies just for 8 energy and slowing a foe twice as much really isn't looking competative, so anyone mind explaining how this shouldn't be a 25, 30 second skill?--BahamutKaiser 06:45, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it wouldn't be so bad to make it earshot range, then reduce the duration and maybe even increase the cost. The problem with this skill is that even if you build your entire team around it it doesn't work. I'm a bit afraid of dazed, but maybe lowering the duration of the tranferred condition could work here (it still wouldn't be a problem for poison, bleeding etc.).--PunkSkeleton 15:51, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Raising this skill to earshot could be quite interesting, but it also might become a bit too powerful, i dunno. But from my attempts to use this skill in PvP before, 'Area' is a little too small to have it worth it. Another option could be to make it a lot more spammable (something like 10/1/5) because creating Fevered 'chains' actually works Patccmoi 00:56, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Remove the requirement that the condition is "new" to be spread. Why... why doesn't it simply spread the conditions whenever they're reapplied? Another thing that feels lacking in this skill series (this and epidemic and maybe extend conditions) is how they fail to do anything but slightly tinker with conditions. If they had a little more "umph" added to them... Fevered Dreams is in illusion, add -3 degen to it. Epidemic has a dude disintegrating in its icon, have it do a token level of damage equivalent about equal to an auto attack. Extend Conditions is terrible, have it cause weakness/bleeding/cracked armor randomly. These are just my suggestions. I have others? -- 20:53, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I played around with it, and the problem is really what he said: NEW condition. It should spread the condition when re-applied, too. It is still easy enough to prevent it from spreading anything by spreading out. ;) --Longasc 10:40, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The ONLY way to boost this elite would be to make Fragility an AoE hex, end of story. Miss Velvetine 00:53, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * "Elite Hex Spell. For 10...22...25 seconds, target foe suffers from 1...2...3 Health degeneration for each condition they are suffering, and whenever target foe suffers from a new Condition, all foes in the area suffer from that Condition as well." --Deathwing 11:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I like it, except for the new Condition part. -- 17:12, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I've used this condition very effectively in PvE, particularly areas with large mobs, the problem of course is coordination; mesmers can hardly cause any conditions, so it's eitehr used on a secondary class, or by an illusion mesmer on vent/ts or in an organised group. Simple example: E/Me Fevered dreams, enervating charge, blinding flash. Throw in an assassin spike, and it's insane. Maestro Ed 10:42, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Not overpowered. Merely not used :/. I created this build earlier today on PvX. I have no idea how it works, but looks pretty effective.

Readem  Promote My Ban Here  06:21, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Calculations:
 * 60 Damage from Dancing Daggers
 * 160 Damage from SoTS + 100 from DW
 * 390 Damage from SoDC
 * All Foes are Weakened/Poisoned/Diseased/DW (-8degen)
 * 60+160+390+DW+(- Degen)= 660 Damage + 100 from DW

I would personally love to see any mesmer skill that utilizes conditions changed, since the mesmer doesnt have many condition causing skills, and those that do arent worth using in tandem with these skills, especially since illusion magic seems to have hexes that imitate conditions rather than cause them, I would much rather see these skills changed to have some interaction with these type of hexes, or just mesmer hexes in general, I really dont have any specific suggestion for this skill, other than maybe make it work on hexes instead of conditions, and make it only work on your next hex, but that would be completely overpowered (mass backfire anyone XD)--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 00:53, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill would be much better with 1 second cast time. If you use this you can get easily interrupted, or your hex will be removed, or they remove the condition/s. 22 October 2007
 * Yeah, I will second that. If they just made it quicker, and maybe cheaper, it would offer more value.  They could even cut the duration down along with reduced cast time and cost that way it offers better spot on condition spreading rather than longer duration, long cast, and easy interrupt and removal.  In the end, the most effective use of this is if your coordinating with other players, putting dazed, blind, and other conditions like maybe burning on a group of foes, and since the effect is pretty much static, the easiest option is to make it cheap and easy.  There is also extended condition duration too, that might be more attractive.--BahamutKaiser 06:52, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Reduce cast time. 87.189.229.209 22:55, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I personally am suprised no one has tried to change this skill at all, I mean it can be fun to run, but ever since Spirit's Strength came out for Ritualists, this just seems to be really lackluster (though it probably was before and it certainly seems that way to me, it just never had another gimmick to be compared to), so why not try to change it since mesmers have no skill synergy with it, where as ritualists have some decent synergy with SS. Maybe its just me that feels this way, but I do think it needs some revamping. My suggestion is a little odd and feels more like psionics than anything, but I figured Id go ahead and suggest something, just to keep it as a unique skill, but change it so it isnt a melee gimmick and possibly useful.
 * ''Illusionary Weaponry  5-10 energy | 2-3 sec cast time | 15 sec recharge
 * ''Enchantment Spell - For 2...8..10 seconds, if you are not wielding weapons in any hand, you can attack (at range, with no projectile, dagger speed, with chance of double strike maybe, using illusion magic attribute to calculate double strike rate, might be too powerful, but.....). Your attacks do 9...36..45 damage (this might be a little too much, I dont know), and if that target was casting a spell or chant, that target is interrupted.

I dont PvP at all so I wont claim the suggestion is balanced in any way, just try to base your judgements on the concept, not the numbers.--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 05:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The change you proposed is all right but I think it loses sight of the original purpose of the skill. Maybe all it needs is a damage increase. Jigoku 19:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe turn into a weapon spell (which you can't cast on target other ally) because this enchantment can be easily removed. 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * IW is fine; it does one thing very well, it's just not something with a huge market. If the illusion line were more useful it'd allow for a more fleshed out character...   --Epinephrine 22:50, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Could you explain what the one thing is that it does very well, because currently, I dont see where this skill would really fit in any team? Also, I dont see how buffing a few of the illusion magic skills would somehow make IW somehow useful since they have no synergy with IW currently.--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 01:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Would be cool if it had an optional buff tied into it. People almost always go with a secondary with an AS when using IW because this skill is really nothing but unblockable damage...that's all it is. :(
 * Maybe if the target you are attacking is suffering from a mesmer hex you get an extra effect. The more messed up the target's mind, the more effective IW is against them.
 * For 30 seconds, you deal no damage in melee, but whenever you attack in melee, target foe takes damage. For each mesmer hex target foe is suffering from your attacks against that foe increase in range.
 * The more mesmer hexes you put on a target the farther away your illusionary weapons can damage them from. --Redfeather 02:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The one thing it does well is bypass any blocking, blinding and missing with pressure damage. It's not a huge amount, granted, but it does it right through nearly any defensive measure (attack slowing hexes being an exception).  Spirit of Failure, Price of Failure, Blurred Vision, Blind, WaM, Aegis, SoD... Is it enough to be able to deliver constant damage through defenses/armour?  Maybe not, but if it were too much better at it it would make it too easy to deliver constant damage, something that wouldn't be good for the game.  It does require an IAS buff to really deal respectable damage, unfortuantely, but if you buff the base damage it might get absurd with an IAS.  One option would be to include a 33% IAS in IW, then adjust the damage output by tweaking the damage amount so that it isn't absurd.  That alone would free up the secondary slot, making the player more flexible perhaps.  By including the IAS you are capping the DPS, since you are at the IAS cap.  --Epinephrine 19:00, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * "The one thing it does well is bypass any blocking, blinding and missing with pressure damage."--That is counteracted by the fact that mesmers are incredibly weak, so you don't have to blind him or make him miss with hexes, just damage will shoo him away. "That alone would free up the secondary slot, making the player more flexible perhaps." It wouldnt free up a secondary slot, as those secondaries all have defense you character needs to have a chance of surviving, the only thing an IAS would do, is free up a stance, thats about it. This skill just needs to be changed, it doesnt fit with the mesmer, and doesnt add anything to the mesmer.--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 20:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Here's an idea: add "have 50% chance to block melee attacks while attacking", sort of like Flashing blades--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 03:43, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * ''Illusionary Weaponry  10 energy | 1 sec cast time | 20 sec recharge
 * Enchantment Spell - For 10...25 seconds you deal no damage in melee but whenever you attack in melee target foe takes 0...30 damage and you steal 0...20 health. Minor increase in damage and gives a self heal. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 02:36, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * stealing HP is necro flavor...--Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 03:47, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Strong skill but recharge hurts it too much. Clumsiness got its buff, why not its Mother?--Renegade 15:16, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Reducing recharge too much will fuel Ineptitude blind bots which can be very dangerous.
 * Not any more than Blinding Surge, which is unconditional and has AoE potential for the same energy cost at a far lower recharge. The damage on bsurge, granted, isn't as high but it isn't conditional either.  I'd be wary of buffing Ineptitude too much, but something needs to happen to make it playable.  Suggestion: 10/1/10, For  seconds, the next time target foe attacks, that foe takes  damage and is Blinded for  seconds.  The skill's just long in the tooth, that's all - nudging down the recharge is all that's necessary considering you can't combo with MoR and the MoP nerf. ~Seef II &lt;☎|→&gt; 04:55, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This can combo with the new Glyth of Swiftness. 142 armor ignoring damage is pretty painful. I'd say 12 seconds recharge. --Shadetz X 07:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If it can't apply blindness as often as BSurge, it won't be used because condition removal beats it too hard. I think it should have a different effect in addition to the Blind. --TimeToGetIntense 10:19, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "Elite Hex Spell. For 4...9...10 seconds, every time target foe attacks, that foe takes 10...42...50 damage and is Blinded for 3 seconds." --Deathwing 12:37, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It could be cool Deathwing, but with the current meta another anti-melee hex is not most welcome I guess (I haven't played since the update so I dunno if there is a shift away from hex-heavy teams). Maybe cut down recharge to 15 seconds, reduce damage down to and add "target become blinded and crippled". However I guess this is not the way this spell is meant to work --Faena 00:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Half the cost, half the blind duration, half the recharge. Make it more useful than 'just a hex you toss on someone to hurt him for decent damage, only to have the 10 second blind be removed within 2 seconds'. Just like with hexes altogether, this needs a more 'active' way of shutdown. The problem with this skill, is that it inflicts a condition, making it already worse than things like Bsurge (immediate, possibly AoE blind), Blurred Vision/Reckless Haste (harder to get rid of hexes than conditions). It's only viable in RA and PvE in synergy with Epidemic... but that's just about it. Saph 16:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It might be better with an AoE effect (reduced damage or only damage on the target). Maybe making all nearby foes to the target lose all adrenaline and 1..12 energy or maybe an AoE KD. The idea behind this skill, I think, is that it's devestating to attack through it. For reasons already mentioned, it's not a problem to attack through it. The effect would actually be strong if it was potentially harmful to the target's team for him to attack through it, especially in certain situations like when he's in his own backline. The cast time could be increased to 2 or 3 seconds if the effect is actually made good, so then it would work more like Shame and Diversion. --TimeToGetIntense 19:56, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I really think a lower recharge would be all that this needs.--Renegade 20:02, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Skills with strong effects and longish recharges (20 seconds or so) are more interesting than spammy skills imo. Lowering the recharge on this skill means that it would be casted on recharge on a Warrior without considering the situation. Strengthening the effect and leaving the recharge alone would promote more intelligent use of the skill. --TimeToGetIntense 20:33, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe so, but the real problem is the abundance of hexes. People rather bring a hexes Necro than an Illusion Mesmer... and if they bring a Illu Mesmer at all, it's often a Migraine one. Ineptitude just causes a condition, and is just subpar to the hex alternatives. And, Melandru Dervishes, the most common Derv elite around, is simply immune to it, making Hexes even more popular. Maybe it could be changed into a multi-triggering Clumsiness (letting it scale with Illusion 1...3 attacks, keep the rest the same, or even make the blind adjacent AoE), but even if that'd happen, I think it won't be brought a lot anyways. I consider it a PvE skill, but Domination is 'better' in there. Saph 23:51, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Why should this skill be geared to actually shutdown Melee? Haven't we learned that melee shutdown is degenerate? --TimeToGetIntense 04:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I used to run this in TA and GvG around the time of the GWFC so keep in mind that my experience as a heavy ineptitude user is about a year old. I stopped running the skill around the time MoR got a buff and drain enchant was nerfed. The amount of chaos that an ineptitude mesmer can cause in an opponent's team is really limited (blinds are removed ASAP, the damage is meh) so Ineptitude is crappy as shutdown compared to a hex spam necro.
 * The real strength of Ineptitude was melee punishment, if you slid an ineptitude into someone's frenzy chain your team had a pretty good chance of killing that guy right away. I say was rather than is for a couple of reasons. First, there's a hell of a lot more condition removal flying around now with RC back in the game and that blind gets ripped off in seconds: so goodbye shutdown aspect. More importantly, warriors run flail instead of frenzy. This means you don't get those double damage ineptitude spikes that came from skilled use of the spell. I'm not sure how to fix the skill and make it fun and skillful again but I do think it needs some aspect that really punishes physicals aside from a simple "applies blind." --Tankity Tank 19:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Lower duration to 6s (so that waiting it out is at least an option, right now it's really too long to wait), lower recharge to 15s, kd instead of blind. That would be more interesting imo. KD screws up an attack chain or a spike just as much as Blind can, and you can't 'remove' a kd, and Melandrus aren't immune to kd either. There is skills to prevent getting knocked, but all in all they are far more limited than condition removal. With that, Inept-Clumsi Mes would be a real threat to warriors, and a good use of Ineptitude could screw up melee spikes really efficiently (and if you catch a Frenzy-Rush warrior in Frenzy using an adrenal skill, Ineptitude would deal 280 damage AND leave him open in Frenzy while knocked because he unloaded 1 charge of adrenal and didn't get it back). A good Mesmer could save lots of spikes this way while a bad one would use it on recharge on random melee attacker and would only annoy them instead of really doing something worthwhile of an elite Patccmoi 15:29, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 6sec and 15 recharge is good and needed. I don't like KD idea though. KDing an attacker is IMO not that important, I mean, I'm not going to waste an elite with a 15sec charge to KD an attacker. Just check that Assassin elite with KD effect, I never see anyone using it. Knock down is what, 2-3 sec? Blind is 10sec and forces the team to remove blind (wastes resources). Servant of Kali 10:12, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You're looking at it from a small arena perspective it seems. KD on an attacker during a spike means it fails, final. That 2s by the time he gets back up means that his target is protted. Blind is actually LESS reliable because people can sometimes draw very fast or you got Melandrus that simply aren't affected, or people even carry Sight beyond Sight sometimes (pretty decent now with recharge even on /Rt). 10s blind forces the team to remove blind, which in general hardly wastes ressources (you'll have a midline with more than enough energy to use draw, and every 15-20s that's hardly pressuring their energy since they're designed to handle BSurge spam on 4s). And it's not only a kd on 15s recharge, it's also 140 damage (potentially more in Frenzy). As i said, a bad player using it every 15s without thinking WOULD fail with the skill. Because the kd would be random and not doing much. But a kd at a good time would totally screw up any adrenal spike/assassin combo FULLY. A kd is much more powerful at doing so than blind ever will be. And since it's a hex with 6s duration, your timing doesn't need to be perfect which makes skills like Bane Signet much harder to use properly for stopping spikes. And the damage is a great addition Patccmoi 14:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Would go 10/2/10. No one is going to use this for the blind...for one it is not AoE, and secondly is not quick enough to catch a spike ect. Readem   Promote My Ban Here  06:26, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Going to 2 sec cast means that you can't apply it during a spike to punish the guy, it turns ineptitude into a "make the warrior stand around" skill like all of the other physical shutdown hexes. I think there are enough sit down type skills already, this one plays nicely (it's fun to frustrate people by interrupting their spike chain with a .5sec cast) but it's weak overall. --Tankity Tank 23:13, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

15/1/30
 * I like the idea of replacing the blind with a KD. Now that's two kd skills on the mesmer line :S(Terra Xin 10:39, 13 September 2007 (UTC))

Target foe and nearby foes are hexed with Ineptitude. The next time each foe attacks, that foe takes 10...76...92 damage and is blinded for 10 seconds.

Made AoE, reduced damage to Clumsiness level, increased cost, longer recharge. Shouldn't be imbalanced, since there's Eruption. --68.106.223.233 01:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * But Eruption is fail...so does that makes your inept fail moar O.o? Readem   Promote My Ban Here  06:00, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That depends on where you are using Eruption. It is fantastic in PvE against physical dominant groups. --Deathwing 06:19, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Congratulations, you've made a bad skill even worse! --Symbol 04:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * How is AoE blind worse than what it is now? --68.106.223.233 22:57, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You've upped the cost and recharge by 50%, lowered the damage by more than a third, just to add an AoE that no one gives a damn about.  Oooh some blind that might hit their warrior and some of their midliners every 30s...yay?  Your proposed change makes this skill even shittier.  --Symbol 12:19, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Replacing the blind with a KD + blind would be hawt. --Tankity Tank 12:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I want to see this skill made more active - at least make it comparable to BSurge in terms of "need this dshotted." No, I'm not asking for a BSurge 2.0, just a mesmer way to do something like that. Making Ineptitude KD would mean it needs to keep its current recharge or so, which badly hurts the skill right now. ~Seef II &lt;☎|۞&gt; 04:54, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking considering the way imagined burden (though I dont really like the skill, it is a hex version of cripple)works, it could be used as a basis for more illusion magic, what I mean by this, is instead of causing actual conditions, the hex acts as if its a condition (especially considering the amount of cond removal nowadays), ex: migraine acts similar to daze (without the easy interupts) and bleeding, crippling anguish acts like cripple and bleeding, this skill just need to be more like them.

10-1/4-15 Interrupt target foe, if that foe was attacking, that foe takes 30...114 (same as before) and for 4...9 seconds (same duration as before), target foe has a 90% chance to miss with attacks.--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 21:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Interestingly enough, this skill's seeing some play these days. Does that mean it's okay?  Kind of a gray area, but it appears in GvG builds on the illusion skirmisher with Clumsiness, iEnchant, etc. ~Seef II &lt;☎|۞&gt; 18:09, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I was wrong, this skill is bullshit; why buff something that promotes apsolutely no skill, especially when hexes are broken as is. This is why Anet should not listen to noobs like me, because I was wrong, and most of us are usually wrong.--Renegade 21:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)


 * haha i laugh when i know that you got what you wanted and now want izzy to change it back. I agree that this hex takes no skill to use and i've seen alot of those mesmers in alliance battles these days casting this on warriors. I've casted it on the same warrior through a whole match, he died 4 times of it + clumsiness + wandering eye + sig of clumsiness, and still died when i continued to cast it on him, (this skill is like soul leech, people forget that it excist and dies.) Many skills get used just after that theyve been *buffed*, many people would use a skill that first get nerfed to cost 10 more energy and then buffed to cost 5 less energy. Its still worse than in the beginning but still considered *buffed*. this skill have been somewhat hidden all those years and i think that people will soon stop use it anyway, its my favourite mesmer skill, and have always been and doesnt belong on the underpowered skills anymore --Cursed Angel 00:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill is not that powerful compared to stuff like Blinding Surge. Melee should learn to bring a condition removal if they are employed so frequently. --216.113.203.89 00:51, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Let's not kid ourselves, this skill is for making Warriors take 250 damage up the ass in Frenzy. --TimeToGetIntense 15:49, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

With the introduction of Shield of Absorption and Divert Hexes and buff to Shielding Hands, Deny Hexes and Convert Hexes, Recurring Soul Barb builds are becoming less effective. I was hoping this skill can be changed so that it does not have to rely on Soul Barb to be effective and can be used in degeneration builds. I think it would be fun to be able to use this skill in conjunction to Enduring Toxin and Shameful Fear (this skill needs a buff too!!!) to punish people for moving. I suggest reducing energy cost and recharge time and increasing the health degeneration. --Shadetz X 00:55, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * If the recharge were cut down to at least 15s it would be used more often while remaining balanced. The reason this is important is because even though it can be automatically re-applied infinitely in theory just by casting another Hex in 10s, in reality RI is always the TOP Hex, so it is always the one vulnerable for removal. The 15s recharge helps deal with this issue over the current 25s recharge. I'd like to even see a -65 max damage hit to a foe who removes it early. We need to see more "oomph" from Mesmer elites. --arredondo 21:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * If the recharge were to be cut down, we would be seeing alot more SB/RI teams. At the moment, not including the effect this has with soul barbs, other hexes such as life siphon and even faithheartedness are currently better then this is. Though i still do agree this needs a buff, maybe something like the 2nd suggestion you made(Damage if removed early) would fit better. OblivionDanny 11:41, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * RI is not the top hex, it is the second-to-top hex. That's why when it was popular, people used Expel Hexes to deal with it because it would remove RI as well as the top hex. [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 01:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Changes: 5/3/15 "For 1...8...10 seconds, target foe suffers from -1...3...3 Health degeneration. If that foe is Hexed again, Recurring Insecurity is reapplied and target suffers -1...3...3 more degen.
 * Reasoning:No one's going to take an elite skill that only gives -3 degen. Plus, the massive amount of degen is countered by the fact that it is always the first one to be removed. Also, the change makes it so Recurring insecurity gets stronger the longer it is ignored.
 * Questions:Would this be to powerful? or in other words would this be so powerful that it brings SB/RI spike back?
 * This is not overpowered at all. If RI is always the first to get removed then regular hex removal can counter SB/RI as it is always the top hex. 3 seconds casting time is a little too much even with fast casting. I suggest lowering it to 2 seconds to 5/2/15. --216.113.204.205 02:46, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill fails because of Soul barbs, soul barbs is a weak skill itself and cant be nerfed but this is an elite and 3 health degen isnt really worth it, 25 seconds recharge is just lame.--Cursed Angel 00:18, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Up its degen to 3...9..10 and it would be worth it, maybe give it 15/1 or 2/15 since it would retain its vulnerability of relying on two skill slots to be good. It would then become decent on its own, and not require soul barbs to be decent. Don't know for sure though.--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 01:56, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Im not sure if this even sees use or not, but Im thinking this skill really needs a boost considering the AoE and only 50% slow is generally not worth the elite status. Now, this suggestion is probably OP but, my suggestion is to make it affect all party members, either with radar range and remove the ability to keep it up almost indefinitely or make it affect all enemies within earshot and the duration stays as it is, either way I think would be a nice way to improve this as a snare and hopefully give a water elementalist a run for its money (since that was the point of a buff a while back, granted Im not really sure that update changed anything, could be wrong though).--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 22:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Shared Burden would definitely worth the elite slot if if was a hex that was contagious like disease. It keeps the theme, gives it definite tactical strengths (anti-warrior and to muck up enemy retreats) and handles one of the biggest issues in elite hexes (Ease of removal/management). Craw 18:21, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

This skill is pretty bad compared to Clumsiness. Clumsiness works automatically on the next attack, whereas Signet of Clumsiness needs to be cast at the right time in order for it to interrupt an attack. Since it needs more work than Clumsiness for making it successful, it would be logical that it does more damage than Clumsiness. Currently clumsiness does 90 damage at 15 in Illusion, and Signet of Clumsiness only 60. I think this should be buff to something like 100. I know that Signet of Clumsiness cost no energy and Clumsiness 10, but that is already balanced by the different reload times (15 versus only 4). (Trouveur 09:51, 30 July 2007 (UTC))
 * You think this is underpowered becuase you don't know how this works. When you are attacking there are no pauses. This sig will work at any stage in an attack. Unlike Clumsy. Thats why it is weaker. Done25 02:59, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I know how it works. But foes don't always attack, sometimes they stop and move. With the 10 seconds duration of Clumsiness it is almost certain that it will trigger, whereas with Signet of Clumsiness you need to use it precisely when the foe is attacking, and if it just stopped you just wasted your skill. It is far easier to do damage with Clumsiness than with Signet of Clumsiness. (Trouveur 09:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC))
 * I have to say this skill is quite weak and is in a attribute line that people normally won't invest in for signet builds; in fact this is the only signet in the illusion line. Lightning Javelin does unconditional damage and is still underused. I doubt any serious player would even consider this skill. --Shadetz X 11:57, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I typically like to have one signet on my bars, no matter what. This one fit very nicely on my Ineptitude bar. I wouldn't suggest any changes, the lower damage is offset by the fact that it can't be removed beforehand like Clumsiness, and can be used to force interrupt attack skills instead of a normal attack. RitualDoll 04:35, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

and
Since the duration of these two were cut down hard in a previous update (likely to deal with farming), perhaps they can have the energy cost reduced from 10e to 5e? They weren't dominant in PvP with the old stats, so with half the duration (but same 20s recharge) it seems fair to give them half the cost. --arredondo 02:57, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that the skill to return to what it was before. This skill was nerfed b/c of duo farming abuse in UW/FoW but people still use it for farming the UW/FoW. They just have to recast more frequently. So the nerf was a failed attempt to put a stop to UW farming. Outside of farming this skill is practically invisible. --Shadetz X 00:21, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Would like to see it for 15e, 5 second duration (at 12) and group buff. Would be a great spell ... I guess it would be too good in fact ... --Faena 12:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think all it needs is the AOE increased to "nearby". This way you could try and force the energy denial into the enemy mid/backline using various tactics. --TimeToGetIntense 20:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Reducing the energy cost for this skill would do a lot for it. Maybe keep its duration low and lower its recharge and then increase its cast time to like 3 seconds? So it is useful for mesmers but the 3 second cast time keeps it away from farming. Jigoku 19:38, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

This skill, as many other elite self-defense such as Mirror of Ice, doesn't work AT ALL being self-only. Because there is no case where it's gonna be worth it except MAYBE in some weird farming spot in PvE. Even a solo monk in TA for instance wouldn't have any use for it because the other team can simply ignore him and kill the rest of his team while his elite, which is likely his emanagement too, is wasted and he won't have the tools/energy to cope up with the pressure on his allies. If you're not a solo healer, this will only make spell casters ignore you except maybe in a spike where they'll kill you. If it wasn't elite, it COULD work as self-defense, but it's just not worth an elite slot. I'd suggest something like '5/1/8, target ALLY...'. This way you could use it to discourage casters from harassing a character non-stop (say MoR-Diversion Mesmer sitting on your monk), and it's still just an enchantment so it could be removed. Would give Inspiration an elite that might be worth bringing sometimes. Atm there isn't a single Inspiration elite that is worth it, the best being Energy Drain and it's really just a 1s cast ETap. Patccmoi 11:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well this is a tricky one, target ally isn't something mesmers really should be doing, while they have a few skills that do, I think it breaks the goals of the profession, I agree Self only defensive elites are probably some of the least run skills in the game, but this skill is a dangrous skill to improve due to the lack of feedback that someone has it on, it's hard to see why your losing energy, and at least when it's self only you can see them casting it on themselves, a fun thing you could do this with this skill make it way more active, short duration, but high energy drain, and low cost. This would allow you to reactively throw it up and fill your energy if your under fire. Still probably pretty hard to want to bring a self only skill but it would at least give it a better change then it has now of finding a place in random arena or something like that. ~Izzy @-&#39;
 * There could always be some flashy purple light around the target when you cast on him (or when he gets enchanted) so that you know he has it on =p But assuming you want to keep it Mesmer only, how about mixing the effects a bit so that it always gets you something? I dunno, say 'when a spell is cast on you you drain x energy. When you interrupt a spell cast on an ally, this ally drains y energy' (minor, something like 1..3). Then it would be a self-enchant with some pretty neat team effect. Interrupt Diversion on your monk to give him energy. The thing is, otherwise it'll be as you say, some kind of RA build that will never see place anywhere and it's always kinda lame to see skills ending there. Or if you REALLY don't want any party effect you could switch the aim a bit and do say 'whenever you interrupt a foe you steal x energy from him (minor, something like 1..3..4. Even with Power Return on recharge it would still never reach PLeak). If that spell was targetting you, you drain 3 times that'. Then it becomes a nice way to mix edenial with interrupts and still keep a bit the 'self-protection' aspect as getting PLeaked when using a spell on you could drain a guy's energy something serious. It would become an interesting skill instead of some boring self-defense enchant that, let's face it, no one will ever use even if you seriously raise how much energy you drain. And if you're worried about making it allow Mesmers to spam interrupts too much by draining energy, you could add a little downside like 'if you fail to interrupt, the foe drains you instead'. Isn't Lyssa some chaotic god? She must like that =pp Even if you make it so that you drain the full energy pool of everyone in the area when they cast on you, i wouldn't expect to see it ever make it past RA in its current form. Patccmoi 06:39, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I like the idea of adding a little more consistency to this skill perhaps just "gain x energy when it ends" would do a lot for at least making it more viable. ~Izzy @-&#39; 19:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No no no. I for one am tired of so many skills dedicated to energy gain, especially on Rangers. This skill needs to do something fun, and worth taking. This skill is bad not only because it's self, and lasts briefly, but also because (correct me if im wrong) you drain the energy from a caster *after* he has casted a spell on you. That means that most of the time you're not going to steal 6-7 energy but more like 0-3. That's why "you gain x energy" would be more useful, but even then I would rather use other mesmer elites. I'm not a fan (mildly said) of farming skills, and this one surely aint meant for any PvPing since the start. Even if it wasn't elite, the way it is now, I wouldn't use it. As Patccmoi said, mesmers prefer chaos (at least I do), instead of being self BiPers or something along these lines. Give me something that frustrates the enemy, which ruins their day, something that will make them curse me when i mess them up. I'd rather have a skill which says "All melee attacks against you miss." than "You maaaybe steal 0-3 energy if the enemy is new to Guild Wars." :) ps: I agree that mesmers shouldn't have many team spells, it doesn't fit the theme. Assassins and Mesmers should be more of a solo character in a way. Servant of Kali 13:32, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * So what you're saying about Mesmers here is that they're an offensive class and not at all tuned for defense. I was under the impression that Mesmers were meta-magic casters (see the stack of hex removal, enchant removal and interdiction spells..). After two years of playing the statement that mesmers shouldn't be casting target-ally skills strikes me as really strange, maybe you should clarify to players in general what the design goals of the class are. --Pork soldier 03:48, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think he has said that mesmers are offensive and not defensive; rather that, among all the many buffs they have, almost none of them targets an ally - all mantras, all the other stances, and almost all enchantments (with two exceptions) are self only. Under that point of view, changing an enchantment so it applies to allies, not only to the self, doesn't really fit the profession. Erasculio 04:18, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Would something like "Elite Enchantment Spell. For 3...9...10 seconds, The next 3...5 enemy Spells against you fail and you steal up to 1...4...5 Energy from the caster." Work a bit better? Would be a more limited in the amount of drain it does because it would be limited by number of uses, but would gain the added benefit of preventing those spells, possibly making it a bit more playable. --Midnight08 16:34, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Make it like Hex Breaker, except all enemy spells against you fail, and you steal energy instead. This isn't a good skill to have classed as "active". You can't use it before hand because of the short duration. You can't really use it when someone targets you, because either they will just pick another target, or just kill you. The effect is so passive that it isn't much of a threat. Look at the Mesmers in AB with this skill. Do you stop casting when they use this? Hell no, I'd say a lot of people don't even notice that they have it. It provides almost no defense, if they are going to kill you, stealing 5 energy from them won't stop that. The only suggestion I can think of is making the next X...X...X spells fail against you, and steal energy. Probably 1...2...3. As it is, it fails at defense, it fails at deterring spells on you, it fails at shutting down someone attacking you, and it fails as elite e-management. --Deathwing 09:45, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * OK I got it. Rework skill: "Whenever you cast a Hex on target foe, one random skill on that foe is disabled for x..y seconds." Adjust stats. Make it like elite Diversion, with risk and reward factor, which means, you can disable the same skill (since it's random) but if you're lucky you reap the reward. Make it into a fun but non-overpowered skill. Servant of Kali 13:32, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Possibly make the energy steal trigger on being attacked as well, with some added effect on-hit thrown in as well? With the amount of love the average midline mesmer gets in GvG from the other team's melee/paragons, some sort of GET OFF ME button that also fills up your energy might be useful. Perhaps "Stance. Whenever you are the target of a spell or attack, the spell's caster or the attacker loses 1...3 energy and is hexed with Lyssa's Aura. For 1...10 seconds, that foe has -2 energy degeneration and you have +2 energy regeneration." Or something. The numbers can be changed, but the skill's effect needs to be something significant for an elite self-defense enchantment to be worthwhile. --72.211.155.160 18:59, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

What about making it an elite version of Ether Feast? Mesmers are the only class with only one self healing skill: 'Elite Enchantment Spell. For 3...9...10 seconds, whenever you are the target of an enemy Spell, the caster loses up to 1...6...7 Energy and you are healed 8...15...20 for each point of Energy lost.' --Lumenil 20:46, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That would make it useless outside of RA so I'd rather have more fun and more viable GvG skills which also work in RA.Servant of Kali 11:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There are a few more triggers that could be added to make this more potent, like if you are affected by a hostile spell or take damage. This way it would include attacks, spells, and AoE damage dealt.  Really, even if it was just Damage or spells targeting you it would still incorperate most AoE effects, just not hexes and conditions.  Throwing on something like that would counteract the effects of AoE attacking by giving you energy to cast even more, and this way the foe may not even notice it since he may not be casting at you.--BahamutKaiser 05:48, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Changes: "For 3...9...10 seconds, whenever you are the target of an enemy Spell, you steal up to 1...6...7 Energy from the caster and when Lyssa's Aura ends you steal 2 energy for every 3 points of fast casting (5 energy max) from each foe nearby"
 * Reasoning: Needs a little more offensive oomph.
 * Questions:Is the secondary effect good enough? or is it overpowered?


 * I think it should be more active but shouldn't steal energy when it ends. "Lyssa's Aura (5,1/4,15): For 3...6...8 seconds, whenever you are the target of an enemy Spell, you steal up to 1...8...10 Energy from the caster. When Lyssa's Aura ends you gain 2 energy for every 3 points in fast casting." Numbers can be tweaked. 87.189.251.211 00:59, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Mantra of (Earth, Flame, Frost, Lightning)
I know that these can be useful in specific, niche setups, but it'd be nice if they were buffed enough to be considered a decent choice for general use. Maybe a rework of the skills could help. For one, I think it would be nice if they were combined into two skills instead of four. That way there is less guessing about what to expect only to be stuck with a worthless skill. Also, consider the energy gain to be independent of the damage received, so they have some use when no elemental damage is present. Here is a rough draft idea of what I mean...
 * Earthly Mantra of Lightning - For 30...78...90 seconds, whenever you take earth or lightning damage, the damage is reduced by 26...45...50%, and you gain 1 Energy for each spell you cast.


 * Flaming Mantra of Frost - For 30...78...90 seconds, whenever you take fire or cold damage, the damage is reduced by 26...45...50%, and you gain 1 Energy for each spell you cast.

Forgetting the corny names for a second, this way there is a little extra benefit no matter what the opponent is running (it takes ten spell casts to pay for its cost), but depending on their setup your stance is now doubly prepared to reduce elemental damage. Each of the two reworked skills accommodates an offensive Ele elemental attribute and a defensive one, so they are pretty balanced. Besides reducing Ele damage it'd be nice against Dervishes, Rits, and Conjure-buffed melee as well. arredondo 07:36, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I always wished that these skills could also be used to change the elemental damage you do as well. Also we need 1 more skill to change elemental damage received. We are missing a lightning damage one! We have Stone Striker, Winter and Greater Conflagration, just need a lightning one. :D--Redfeather 12:01, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe the synergy with Iron Mist is why they haven't done that so far. --arredondo 08:16, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I suggested something similar to this a while back, skill names could be improved to:
 * Mantra of the Depth (Water, Earth)
 * Mantra of the Spark (Fire, Air)
 * Mantra of the Storm (Water, Air)
 * Mantra of the Molten (Fire, Earth) [Alt: Mantra of the Core, Mantra of Mercury, Mantra of Volcanos]
 * This allows groups to run strategic builds based on the meta; if every balanced group is running air & water, then the appropriate mantra can be a crucial advantage. As is, mantras are too narrow to be used in PvP, and are either useless or very strong in PvE, depending on one's foresight.
 * As another option, one could make mantras similar to Storm's embrace (You get X general bonus, and this is recharged if you take [element] damage.). If the bonus isn't specific to the one elemental type, then it's not an 'all or nothing' pick to bring the mantra to an unfamiliar setting; you get the bonus, and if the gamble pays off, it becomes more efficient. 64.230.96.61 18:38, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

&
These skills used to be correct (not really useful but correct), and now they have somehow been nerfed to oblivion with the armor stack cap. They should use a little love. (http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=458483) --Faena 13:38, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Just like in that thread, I think you misunderstand. These skills still work as normal. The armor cap is for armor effect STACKING. That is to say, two or more skills/effects cannot stack past +25, but a single skill/effect can give greater than that amount. These aren't affected by the new mechanic unless you are trying to use other armor bonuses besides them. Arshay Duskbrow 02:41, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Were they ever used besides for stacking armor in warrior solo builds and such? --Deathwing 02:43, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I know how armor stacking works, but I guess almost everybody brings Watch Yourself in PvE, and I would prefer having ~20 armor against anything that ~40 against physical damage and -10 against elemental. Without armor stacking this skill would take a much needed skill slot. --Faena 07:23, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * They aren't very good because in PvE you're always better off with one of the element specific Mantras or getting your armor elsewhere. They are terrible in PvP because melee can just swap between Physical and Elemental weapons to take advantage of these stances. The armor penalties need to go, imo. --TimeToGetIntense 23:06, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. These are underused because of the armor penalties.  The fact that its a stance already balances it out without that.  Take the penalties off, and these 2 are good to go.--John deathblade 08:40, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * In PvP? They're underpowered because people carry weapon swaps and generally don't train a target for minutes at a time, and because they suck at dealing with spikes.  Passive armor boosts are generally lame unless you can apply them to the whole party. --Symbol 00:32, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd consider using these in some PvP bars if they didn't have the penalties, though... At least it would be a start to making them decent, anyway. --TimeToGetIntense 02:04, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I suggest that these be changed in line with the other mantras: damage reduction instead of armour. "Stance. For 30...78...90 seconds, physical damage you receive is reduced by 50%, but you take 24%...14%...12% more damage from elemental damage." Maestro Ed 10:21, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that suggestion would be great. --Deathwing 00:45, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * How about : 5E/15r. For 5..11 seconds, you take 50% damage from physical/elemental damage.
 * No penalty, no nothing. Similar to warrior stances in that you activate it when you need it. It's not a passive buff so much, but it cuts one or the other type of damage when you need it. Elemental Resistance at least could be interesting when facing Conjure warriors, Melandru Derv (they deal Earth damage unless in JI), Eles, it would seriously cut down their damage. Physical Resistance would be particularly good against Thumpers that usually require Zealous weapon to function and they can't change the damage type of their pet, or on a Ranger that already has very high elemental resist. It would make them much more interesting if they were kinda on demand with no drawback, but not fully maintainable than being 'permanent' but with a drawback. I mean, with weapon swaps, this disadvantage is NOT acceptable in any case. Allowing physicals to do +x% damage to you (which they will ALWAYS do when they see you have the mantra) is just not justifiable, ever. Patccmoi 14:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I like to see a flat reduction of damage, like... "Stance. For X seconds, you take Y less damage from physical damage, but take Z more damage for elemental damage." Now this is more threatening and will even make Wild Strike/Blow/Throw more useful. Lightblade 00:00, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I will bring this skill up since it was mentioned above. This is the inferior version of Depravity as it requires you to interupt for the hex to be applied. Some of you may argue that it steals energy but the point of Domination magic is to effectively shut things down and not for energy gain. In addition, Depravity cause one nearby foe to lose energy. I suggest increasing duration to 15 seconds or make this skill cause exhuastion when foe is interupted. --Shadetz X 03:28, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * PLeech is in Inspiration. I'd rather see it do something like a straight loss of  Energy, and the caster gains 2 Energy for each point lost.  Basically an elite Power Drain - leave the recharge, since MoR + PDrain would recharge in ~12 s.  And it'd function as an alternative to PLeak.  ~Seef II &lt;☎|→&gt; 04:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That'd be great actually. If you leave it 10E though, i'd consider making it an elite PLeak more than an elite PDrain : 10/.25/12, if target foe is interrupted you steal 5..20E from that foe.


 * Hard to say it's broken since PLeak is non-elite, in Domination, and drains as much. You got 3s lower recharge on this one, but you'd gain the energy too. Would actually be a very interesting and worthy inspiration elite Patccmoi 14:22, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 10/0.25/12, Spell. If target foe is activating a Spell or Chant, that Spell or Chant is interrupted and you steal  Energy from that foe. I'd think we would have a winner with that, though at 0 spec it's kind of strong.  But it's Inspiration, an otherwise overnerfed line.  The  range wouldn't net you enough to stop taking Power Drain at 11 spec, but that change would be fine with me as well.  ~Seef II &lt;☎|→&gt; 03:16, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Increase the duration. --(Problem. 02:16, 20 September 2007 (UTC))

How about making the hex aspect of it like Guilt/Shame?

If target foe is casting a Spell or Chant, that Skill is interrupted and for 10 seconds, the next time that foe casts a Spell, it fails and you steal up to 5...12...14 energy from that foe.

A bit wordy, though. Anyway, Guilt and Shame have long-ass recharges. This would give a more reusable version (but in Inspiration), but requiring skill to apply consistently. --68.106.223.233 10:42, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Power Flux may need buff, but not Power Leech. Lightblade 01:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I laughed at 68.106.223.233's suggestion. Look at my suggestion for Power Flux half a page up. --Deathwing 01:54, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I can't really agree on this, interruption is a benifit as well as a requirement, those who can't operate interruptions should use other means, otherwise, an interruption adds the value of a blocked skill use and lost energy from the failure. Also, energy stealing is way better than additional energy loss on a nearby foe.  The ability to interrupt, and also do so twice as much as simular skills like power drain, is a relavent competative value.  The frequency on these skills could go up, but that is more a general improvement to alot of skills, not just this one.  Simply lowering the cost would also make this a bargain.--BahamutKaiser 06:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * After thinking about this skill some more I think the best buff would be just to have the hex applied on the foe regardless of interuption similar to Web of Disruption and decrease the energy steal. With this change you can at least combo it with Ether Phantom for a more solid energy denial. IMO the effects of Depravity, energy loss to the foe and one of its nearby ally, serves the energy denial purpose better. The energy steal is a nice feature but mesmers do not depend on situational hex skills like Power Leech for energy management. I know I wouldn't. --Shadetz X 12:27, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

This skill is complete garbage. It is on the same level as extend conditions and those other horrible nightfall elites. It is too hard to apply and too easy to remove. Also the 15 second recharge really hurts. It should atleast be spammable. A serious buff is needed to this skill because no one specs very high in inspiration.
 * Can be fun with Shadow of Haste. Casting it on a monk will make them spend time tabbing around to wand you. Could use a slight buff, but unlike a lot of skills, it isn't totally laughable. --Deathwing 09:30, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ooh, I like that idea actually. Stick it on a caster, then run like hell... but having to avoid a particular player would probably involve removing yourself from combat for a while, which might be a bit counter-productive. -- Jioruji Derako.> 09:35, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not running like hell, Shadow of Haste behind your backline, charge the enemy monk, use this on them, then use Dark Escape or Dash. The monk would have to chase you too far to remove it. In the mean time you could use Spirit Shackles or something on the other teams warriors. --Deathwing 09:44, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Forgive my rather broad definition of "running like hell". I guess you're right in that regard; the Monk would already be hanging in the backline, so it would be more effective to wait the skill out then to chase you down. Of course, the problem being they can simply use hex removal; Remove Hex, for example, only has a 7sec recharge, which goes up to about 14sec recharge with this on. Not a big sacrifice. Tease would be a lot more usable if it also stopped them from casting spells, or something of the sort. Maybe a symmetrical increase in cast time to match the recharge... not sure if that would end up being overpowered, but it at least gives them a reason to chase you down. -- Jioruji Derako.> 09:55, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * P.S.: Shadow Walk > Tease > Dash, and you're out of wand range just like that. Not as far of a retreat, but makes getting into touch range a lot safer for a Mesmer.
 * Sure, you can apply it and teleport away, but you think they won't just REMOVE the hex? It's a hex, there's already plenty of hex removal available in a team because they have good chances of facing a hex build, and Tease has an EXTRA way to remove it, but it can still be removed quite normally like any other hex. And the fact that they can just hit you, AND it's touch range, means that it's also quite risky to use a cover hex on cause they can just wand you before you can get away if you do so. The hex had a fun idea, but is totally worthless as a whole atm. Patccmoi 14:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It takes too much other skills to make this hex stick. This is just the equivalent of Migraine, but work on all skills.  Migraine only need itself and some cover hex to work.  This one, however, takes cover hex and 2 shadowstep skills to make it work.  So yes, it's too weak.  Lightblade 10:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

A 5 second recharge would fix the skill, and make it remove all adrenaline and enchants from the user so Assassins, Dervs and Warriors won't get too happy with it. Mesmers barely use enchants so they won't care. It requires melee range, so it remains a dangerous skill for a Mes, and it couldn't be abused with Shadow Steps because those skills take too long to recharge. arredondo 00:04, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I say rework it to a short duration, nasty effect skill like diversion (this is the most similar skill to diversion as it stands): "Elite Hex Spell. For 6 seconds, Skills used by target foe take 20...84...100% longer to recharge." Recharge set to 12, energy to 10, activation to 1 or 2. It would be a viable PvP skill for hurting spaming skills and reduce spam skill pressure in PvE. Thoughts? Maestro Ed 23:45, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * No, this would make this skill far less unique. I think the touch range requirement and the fact that the hex ends when the victim hits you is fine, it's the hex that's quite ineffective in most cases. It should be reworked in something really bad, something no one would want on him, that would make him struggle to absolutely remove it. --Lumenil 21:06, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Change the spell to SKILL. Let's face it, it's the only way this skill will EVER see work. Servant of Kali 11:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Make it like Blackout, Power Block and Wail of Doom - an effect that simply can't be cured.  Then it might be useful (maybe)--Epinephrine 00:26, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * ^ I really think that's the way to go. But I suggested something really bizarre. Change Tease into an enchantment you place on the foe. If the foe has no enchantment removal or doesn't want to use it because they've stacked another enchatment over Tease, they will have to try and hit you...which can lead to fun synergy with Calculated Risk, Clumsiness, ect. --Redfeather 09:59, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Changing it to a skill might be too dangerous. But changing it so the hexed person can only remove it by hitting you might not; since other monks or support would be able to remove it. And that would be OP, in skill form either really, since it requires a touch range which has hurdles to jump through since the effect is scaled. IMO, anyway, I can totally see that being abused. RitualDoll 03:41, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * How about adding "For 10 Seconds that foe has 15..35...50% chance to miss with attacks"? Gives it some use against Physical classes, and would help you for getting away purposes. --Mularc 08:21, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Move under Inspiration, Target foe loses 1-3 enchantmentss, for each enchantment removed target takes 10-30 damage. 15 cost, 2 to cast, 30 recharge. ashesfalldown 11/16/07
 * That change would make it more fitting under domination don't you think? and maybe the damage should be... "for each enchantment removed target takes 20..50 damage (max 140 damage)" Jigoku
 * Jigoku is right, it would fit under domination (inspiration doesn't deal damage with any skill), but really, it just needs a max amount of seconds disablement set (which, compared to Gaze of Contempt, which is currently, A LOT better, it would have to be 14-15 secs) and if thats too good (you never know), you could always put it into an attribute and scale it's disablement max or something.--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 05:37, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Mesmers, general PvE .. aka "mesmers, pve, fail"
To paraphrase Ensign from another discussion "I don't know what a mesmer could do that would make me want one in PvE, especially in HM." Have the designers considered giving these guys some nice IMBA skills for GW:EN that will make the hardcore PvE people consider taking them along? Currently I avoid taking mesmers for HM groups like they've got the plague, they just don't do anything useful that I can't already do with say Broad Head Arrow or Meteor Shower.--Pork soldier 11:46, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't want more imbalanced skills than we already have, really. I think the main problem of Mesmers in PvE is simply how disruption is far less important than raw damage, so 9 out of 10 times an Elementalist is going to be more useful than a Mesmer. The little shut down that is useful may be done by Broad Head Arrow, thanks to Daze (that turns the entire party into an interruption machine). The only change I would like to see, skill-wise, would be to give the mesmers a way to cause Dazed, but it would have to be something "mesmerish" (conditional, like most other things in the profession), not something overpowered. Erasculio 12:11, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The only usefull mesmers in PvE are Illusion mesmers atm. Overall domination magic is the one that does the more direct damages but mainly focused on one target so not really effective in PvE when there are lots of mobs, the only usefull things are enchant removal, maybe Mistrust to do AoE dmg but other classes do that more effectively. Inspiration is mainly for e-management so except if you need AI, Power Drain to disrupt or Mantras to lower damages you won't use it. Fast Casting is used more for its inherent effects than for its skills, expect MoR and Power Return but disruption in PvE is hard in hard mode and less crucial than damages, however something like a range Guilt could be nice (a sort of range wide next spell shutdown would help imo). Illusion magic is the most usefull, you can spread degen all around, Ancestor's Visage well if you want to spread out the aggro that's good. Conjure Phantasm yeah but still, Mesmers are lacking of AoE skills. Clumsiness, Ineptitude which is one of the best elite choice for PvE imo (combined with Epidemic), Image of remorse, all of this help dealing with melee mobs pretty nicely actually but it takes lots of energy because you have to reapply it on every mob. Soothing Images if you're dealing with lots of Warriors and Phantom pain with Shatter Delusions and Epidemic.Arcane Conundrum helps, but spreading Daze is a better alternative i think. I dunno if Ineptitude shouldn't blind all adjacent foes as well it would help. The way they are, mesmers can only exploit some of their domination magic skills and mainly illusion magic to do something usefull in PvE. Spreading conditions is something they do nicely with Epidemic, shutting down melee characters too (blindness spreading). But they don't do damages at all and Rangers can probably run Epidemic themselves with Broad Head and Rt could be prefered to negates damages rather than a melee shutdown mesmer. Making Epidemic's usage more reserved to a primary mesmer could help but i don't know how we could do it, as well as giving them the opportunity to do more AoE dmg or to shutdown multiple targets (risky though). I wonder if a kind of adjacent-wide Clumsiness thing could be done.. But it would be hard to make usefull PvE skills for mesmers, in order to make them more popular, without either hurting PvP (with skills too powerfull) or hurting the philosophy of a mesmer with skills that have non-mesmer effects (who basically shutdowns/locks heavily one's specific ability) because as long as it hurts only one target it's ok but if he can hurt several target with that strength (it depends of the skill obvisouly) it might become to powerfull. A skill like Cry of Pain is good, but if i was a mesmer i would prefer keeping my shutdown effect instead of becoming a kind of Elementalist Fire Spell caster  Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 12:56, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you guys failed to see the original point. If mesmers had crazy IMBA pve only skills then people would want them for pve, right now no one does. --Tankity tank 13:09, 5 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think "crazy IMBA pve only skills" could make the game to become better. Add to this how the Paragons already have one of those ("There's nothing to Fear!"), and yet they are still not popular in PUGs. The problem (one of them) is that people act out of habit - right now few PUGs bring a Mesmer, so in the neary future few will bring a Mesmer, even if you buff their skills. The only possible buff that could make most PUGs take mesmers, IMO, is a "Kill all enemies within the map" skill, and that's obviously something that would hurt more than help. Regardless of what Arena Net does, changing the mentality of "tank/nuker/healer" is not going to happen anytime soon. What Mesmers need is a change to PvE as a whole, so shut down becomes more important than raw damage, and that Mesmer shut down becomes more important than just Daze. There are many ways to do this, but none of them is easy, so this is something I have given up on GW1. Besides, as far as we know the GW:EN PvE skills are not profession specific, so this entire discussion is moot anyway. Erasculio 14:07, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll be talking about GWEN areas (which btw would be a bit hard to change at least at the beginning since the game is about to be released). I dunno what they will look like, what mobs there will be there, and if they will require a somehow "tank,nuker,monk" team build in HM as stated Erasculio. I remember of very few Tyria areas which still remain original in the way mobs are playing. The more interesting one being Twin Serpent Lakes imo. I've not been there since a very long time now, but i recall there were lots of hexes (mesmer and necro). In such place, warriors are less usefull because of the load of melee shutdown hexes and stuff. If we add enchant removal (some that don't require to "target", like Chilbains or Hex Eater Vortex), this would also kill a tanker or make his job more difficult. That is, if a place was not populated by heavy damage dealers, then a tank would be useless to take damages. In such areas, increasing AI to make mobs regularly switching targets instead of gathering around and focusing on a tanker would moreless make everybody subject to hexes and degen rather than direct damages, a kind of pressuring in fact. Such places would encourage shutdown imo, therefore giving mesmers a better chance to shine when in them. I've just recalled that Frostfire Driders are i nice example of that, during the Frost Gate mission. I'm not talking about doing so in every areas, but i think adding more areas like this in the game would be nice. We could even add such things in certain parts of a "normal" area. For example, let's take one area which contains hills and a cavern. Why not including such mobs in the cavern while leaving the rest more common ? therefore if you want to Vanquish or something, Mesmers would be welcomed (or at least more appealing).  Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 15:31, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There's still the posibility of synergy with primary attributes and existing skills. I doubt Fast Casting will do much by itself, but Mantra of Recovery could work really well with some of the PvE-only spells. -- Gordon Ecker 00:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Mirror of Delusions(gw alpha elite) would be a great help for pve mesmers. Make it a pve skill if you worry about imbalance in pvp.
 * Description: If target foe suffers from a Hex in the next 10 seconds, all nearby foes suffer from that same Hex. With Illusion Magic 4 or less this spell has a 50% chance to fail. Energy Cost: 15. Casting Time: ? seconds. Recharge Time: ? seconds. Linked Attribute: Illusion Magic. Affects fail chance. Skill Type: Hex Spell. 80.133.101.252 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * gosh, gotta be huge with Backfire or Mistrust or Empathy. It's overpowered, just like if you were SSing everything too. You should lower it to 3 foes max, this way it would still be really usefull imo but not that overpowered  Azul  [[image:Frigid_Armor.jpg|20px]] 10:17, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Mesmers would easily have a role in pve groups if one of two things had not happened when mesmers were put in. 1) some of the best mesmer skills weren't accidentally put in other classes' skill bars (see spiteful spirit, maelstorm, cacaphony, etc.) and 2) if the inspiration line was actually inspiring. So far mesmer can inspire themselves. Nothing for other classes. if mantra's gave benefits to the entire party (maybe while the mesmer stood still) or the mesmer had skills to help others (give them benefits/energy) then they'd be useful. Also, if factions and nightfall hadn't come around and introduced classes that were very immune to mesmers (the counter all class) they'd still be good. Ritualists have weapons spells, items, and rituals, two of which can't be removed, one of which is very hard to interrupt by a class who mostly only interrupts spells (used by mainly four of the 10 classes), and paragons, who have shouts, chants, etc. Now we can interrupt the chants, but that doesn't quite help enough. Master mxyzptlk 20:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ever played a Me/E Mind Blaster? They work in PvE pretty well...Or at least Norgu has accompanied me in my entire Vanquishing venture through Tyria. Gothica 01:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

page size
this page is, again, getting too big. the visions of regret part had its last edit on august 4th, signet of illusions on august 3rd, extend conditions on july 30th. Lyssa's aura is also getting very big but is still being discussed. - Y0_ich_halt 01:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Like someone predicted when the underpowered skill page first went up, the Mesmer list is loooooooong. Lol, I took a look at the overpowered list and there's only one entry (Auspicious Incantation, which I think is just fine). I guess the numerous Mesmer "balance adjustments" worked in keeping the class from being too strong. --arredondo 08:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * lol xD although the assassin list is even longer. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 11:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Monk list is almost as long. Could seem strange considering it is in any group ... but not surprising in fact ! (I love monk so much I would love to see some buffs so I could use different builds) --Faena 12:46, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * yeah, sucks because everyone expects you to do zb, lod or healer's boon. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 12:56, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The page size reflect the general players view that most Mesmer skills, especially elites, have issues with being underpowered. I have already resisted my urge of putting Shatter Storm and Psychic Distraction up since they are not too underpowered. I still hope that they can cap the maximum recharge time for Shatter Storm at 20 seconds so that people are more willing to choose it rather than Gaze of Contempt. --Shadetz X 07:12, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * yup. only useful elite are dom ones. with MoR as exception. well, even IW and crip anguish are balanced. but i can't think of anything else. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 11:32, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

This list is not nearly as long as it should be. The skills here are the contenders for the worst GW skills, lots of skills that simply always have better options go unmentioned here.--SiDima 14:47, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed - also, curious about reason for archiving. Yes, it's long, but unless the situation has changed, why archive?  I mean, we can rehash points in old notes, but they were weak then and are still weak, so they belong here, no? --Epinephrine 13:12, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ya, a lot of mesmer skills are ether way to expensive (power block, shatter enchantment) or not worth it (Air of disenchantment and Enchanter's conundrum) Jigoku 19:08, 3 November 2007 (UTC)