User talk:Linsey Murdock/Skill balance2

TA Issues
Hi

Are there any plans to improve the Arenas in the future? At the moment it's the only serious PvP format that doesn't either have a ladder or an observer mode (GvG and HB have ladder + obs, HA has obs). People have been asking for improvements to TA for many years now and i think if you're going to make a PvP focused content update the Arenas (and HB by the way) need it the most Vortex  ™  11:12, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh boy, TA is srs bsns.Pika Fan 18:38, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Very constructive posting Pika... back on topic... I think we'll be told what the next major update will contain when Anet decide they're ready, rather than waiting for a Wiki'er to just ask, so I doubt you'll get a response explaining what their plans are for the big updates however if you're asking about a skill rebalance targeted at TA, I've no idea xD -- Alex [[Image:User_AlexEternal_Mr_Bear.jpg|19px]]Eternal 18:52, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "There are three other teams in TA at any given time. One team is from RA.  One team is nolifers.  One team is a bad PUG.
 * "The first thing you need to understand is that you will never beat the nolifers. Never.  The second thing that you need to understand is that you will always play against them before you get to 5 wins.  You may beat one RA team, or two RA teams and the PUG, or four RA teams, or the bad PUG four times.  But you will not get glad points when there are nolifers playing.  They're on their 82nd win, and you're not going to change that."
 * I'd welcome a ladder in TA. [[Image:User_Raine_R.gif|19px]]  Raine   - talk  19:48, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm gonna make a prediction right now that one of the things they will probably do in an upcoming content addition to get more people to PvP, is intro a stripped down Prototype of the "World" PvP system they're promising us in GW2. That might be wishful thinking, but it could also get a lot more PvE'ers (like myself) into the PvP brackets and maybe even into Team Arenas. -- ilr  22:38, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That's not going to happen, ilr.
 * As far as PvP priorities go, Team Arena is pretty low on the list. - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 23:56, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * To bad.Thx for the response anyway. Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.png|21x21px]] *panda*  07:35, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok i know that TA has a low priority, but don't you think that after being neglected for 3,5 years it is time for some changes now? Yes, the TA community is small, but the reason behind this is simply that you get no ingame recognition for playing arenas. There is no intentive to be good at TA or play extensively other than farming a grind title. Teams on high streaks or highranked guilds are not shown on observer, there is no ladder you can climb up with good streaks, there are no tournaments for reward points and no title emote or rare gold drop like in HA. It is not attractive for players to try out TA since as i said all you can do there is farming glad points. Even a ladder or a scoreboard like in rollerbeetle racing would help lots to improve the format Vortex  ™  09:18, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I just can't believe Hero Battles get more dev/balance attention and rewards than TA. Iced 01:47, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hero battles is pvp? thats a funny joke you got there.--[[Image:User_Zesbeer_sig.png|link=User talk:Zesbeer‎]] Zesbeer 02:10, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That's not hard to understand tho, HB is not beeing played as intended, they used to "/roll" there before the roll command was disabled in HB but is now replaced with rock, paper, scissors or by what color you have if i'm correct. Wich is a serious problem. It's normal that they fix problems first, and as far as I know there are none in TA. But in the future they should look into maybe making a TA ladder and/or Tournament, but pls no more titles, the Gladiator title is enough for RA and TA together. Qaletaqa 04:16, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Weird thing just happened in my head, (RA + TA) + Gladiator Title = RATA SUM? It's different when I think about it but it comes down to that Damn I think about useless stuff :). Qaletaqa 04:16, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * you rly do :p.The problem is most people f'en hate the format and just play it for the faction.I think it will be very hard to actually do something about it as long as the format is this crappy Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.png|21x21px]] *panda*  04:44, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * LOL Zesbeer...just LOL. And the problem with "/roll" and "rps" is that people do it because HB is lame and not worth the 10 minutes it takes to out flag your opponent.Warherox 10:20, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * @Vortex: why not just play it because you enjoy it? Why does everyone need to know how l337 you are? 87.210.150.58 15:09, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Why does every Ip HAS to make a random and stupid comment Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.png|21x21px]] *panda*  11:01, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * There is nothing wrong with the format itself, just the rewards are not worth it for many players. I still would like to know your opinion, Linsey. Is it possible that you improve TA in the future (not next update, somewhen) or is that completely beside the point? Vortex  ™  16:56, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Having a name instead of a number hasn't improved the quality of your posts either Lilondra. 145.94.74.23 07:20, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Like I said before, TA is pretty low on the list of priorities because, like you said, Vortex, there isn't really anything wrong with it as it is. I'll make a post-it note to see if there is anything we could do for TA, but there is so much on our plate already that we might not get to this. - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 22:41, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Discord
I think you might be aware of Discordway, which is a build involves three necro heroes spamming Discord. This build is meant to vanquish areas in HM easily. I was wondering if you have plans to do anything with Discord. If you plan to nerf it, it would make vanquishing in HM impossible.--User:Dark Paladin X 15:45, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * good joke. vanquishing was done with ease before discordway was invented/modified, and it will be possible without it. learn to play the game instead of relying on gimmicks like crutches. - Auron 15:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I found Discord useful mostly in areas with many enemies like the Secret Snowmen lair, but it's not the panacea. But to Vanquish, I go with a Healing monk, a bomber-protect necromancer and an ally healing ritualist. Then I choose a henchman that can recover energy(Eve or Claude) and other henchmen depeding on area. If I could Vanquish Sacnoth Valley with that, anyone can Vanquish anything with that. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 15:54, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I vanquished half of the world with H/H before Sabway/Discord and without cons (ok, I used a few clovers in Desolation and developed such an innate hate of paragons I stopped playing mine for a while). I like my crutches, I put stickers on them and got my friends to sign them, but I can live without them.  There are plenty of areas where no matter how prepared you are, you feel like both of your legs are broken, and you do need crutches.  Until that is fixed, I'd like to keep them.  At the very least, wait until there is a zquest for vanquishing, as you promised, even though I still prefer my hero AI to random pug lack of any I.  [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]Rose Of Kali  19:26, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've never used Discordway, almost did once but the setting up was too much of a hassle so I just kept the heroes to my own version of "sabway." Vanquishing is not hard, except for a few specific areas. My sin, without the use of perma sf, has vanquished all of Cantha and half of the other two continent (this includes EN) I have absolutely no problem with my normal set up of a UA hybrid monk, a beast master ranger, and a MM as my heroes (note: not a minion bomber). My usual henchmen are a healer monk, a fire ele or mesmer (depending on location, Factions/EN I take ele, Prophecies/Nightfall I take mesmer), a ranger or Sogolon if in Nightfall, and a warrior or dervish. I haven't even attempted to two hardest areas in the game to vanquish yes, but I don't see Vanquishing as so hard you need gimmicks for even 99% of the game. Maybe just 1%, if that. -- Azazel The Assassin\talk 19:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't get this... It's basically Necrosis with the extra requirement of a Hex and the restriction of being an Elite. What's so Hawt about that?? A team of Real Necros could obviously clear much faster.  ...nevermind the fact that other classes like Assassins still have REAL Godmode in PvE.  What a silly thing to waste Lin's time on. -- ilr  20:33, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * What a silly thing to waste Lin's time on.... Especially considering Linsey doesn't deal with skill balancing/changing. --[[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png | Wyn's Talk page]] Wyn 21:27, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * wyn it was my understanding that linsey is learning the ropes for skill balance and will be taking over? i could be wrong about that. as for discord way i think roj way is much better and faster.--[[Image:User_Zesbeer_sig.png|link=User talk:Zesbeer‎]] Zesbeer 23:01, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've never gotten into these 'way' builds. Every now and then I hear someone talking about discordway, or sabway or some other way.  I'm a student of "I-set-up-my-heroes-to-the-situation-grab-some-generic-Henchmen-and-kill-everything-way".  I try not to rely on gimmicks because they're generally being watched or nerfed.
 * And, Wyn, for shame. I thought you knew Linsey.  As Team Lead and the person who oversees any changes made to Guild Wars Live you'd think she'd be in the loop with such things.  But, I could be wrong, perhaps she's Lead but doesn't get told anything [shrugs]. 000.00.00.00 01:36, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually the reason you shouldnt play gimmicks is because you don't get better get worse by playing them.Then again its pve.I'd also like to note the Gimmicks Don't always get nerfed instantly.They have to Singlehandedly Ruin Pve Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.png|21x21px]] *panda*  05:17, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't even attempted to two hardest areas in the game to vanquish yes... Eastern Frontier > Sacnoth+Joko's!Mystical Celestia 05:26, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Then I'm set. Daze+condition spread=done with monks. I already vanquished that area. -- Azazel The Assassin\talk 06:11, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * There are no plans to nerf Discord at this time, but even if we did I know it would not make Vanquishing "impossible". I have done a fair amount of Vanquishing on my Ele, all with a balanced build and my honey got his Vanquishing titles using a balanced build as well. Vanquishing isn't super easy, nor should it be, but it is certainly possible to do it with a very wide variety of builds. Sometimes I find that I can't get through an area alone with Hero/Hench, so I'll party up with a friend or my honey and the two of us with heroes are generally able to do it then, assuming we took at least a little bit of care with our skill bars and how much we aggro. I still have yet to find a place in the game which just isn't possible to beat unless you use one specific skill bar. There are always options, you just need to find them. - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 22:24, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * One thing along this Line that worries me about GW2 is that we may not have this unique Dynamic where-in a party of 2 Human players and 6 Heroes is far easier to Coordinate and specialize for these harder Tasks than an 8-man PuG nomatter how many PvE-only skills they bring.  ...atleast the way I've read it ("Companions" generally are supposed to make you weaker, not stronger).  This isn't so much a comment on GW2 as it is a compliment of GW1's flexible Hero system... -- ilr  23:07, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Whoa, a compliment from ilr? Are you feeling ok? :P Don't worry too much about GW2 just yet, you don't know hardly anything about it so you are only going to get bogged down in assumptions. That was not an invitation for people to complain about a lack of GW2 info or to ask for more GW2 info. Just sayin'. :D - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 23:20, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I still have yet to find a place in the game which just isn't possible to beat unless you use one specific skill bar. Why do those areas even exist in that way? (e.g. DoA, but there is no current build that can do it) Why does hard mode has to be frustrating? instead of challenging. And as a slightly different question: Why can't we take control over our heroes.? Anyway I hope that GW2 won't have 100 levels. If you (the gw2 team) do that then you throw GW itself away. Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Sig.jpg|10px‎]] 04:56, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you misread what she said she said there isn't an area in the game where only 1 skill bar only works...and what does GW2 having a different leveling system have to do with anything? DarkNecrid 05:36, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ever seen a ranger accepted in a DoA group (Ursanway excluded)? (non-trapper) also one of the main aspect of GW is was skill over grind (until EoTN). So keep it for GW2. Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Sig.jpg|10px‎]] 17:18, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I have, not in PUGs but then again a majority of those people think Paragons are the worst class in the PvE game, so what do they know anyways? Rangers can do DoA and every class can do stuff in it, you might not be able to get them into PUGs but that's because PUGs only want to use the easiest + fastest bars. Skill over grind still applies to GW, it's called PvP, which according to what we know about GW2, is still applying there. The 2 different sides want 2 different things at this point, and there's plenty of people who want a more "WoW" esque PvE experience that they can deliver to those people while still giving a very skill dependent and accessible game to the PvP side. DarkNecrid 07:47, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The flaw in your argument is that you are assuming the PvE players want WoW. People who began playing GW all the way back in Prophecies did so exactly to escape from the "grind > skill" mentality in other MMORPGs, or because they wanted to play WoW but couldn't afford it so they settled for the game without monthly fees. The former players would be happy with a PvE game in which skill is what decides if you win or lose, and the latter won't be happy until they are playing free WoW. Erasculio 10:46, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * cheers Erasculio* Draxynnic 09:28, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I have, and I have also seen several attempts to reduce the title grind during the last few updates. I see a lot. 145.94.74.23 07:20, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Attempts != successes. They can beat around the bush all day, but title grind will be a problem until they fix it, not until they attempt to fix it. - Auron 07:29, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * My guild used to do DoA, and we have a general build that has places for all professions with various combinations. We just need to keep and overall balance between melee, caster and healer classes. It's very much possible. The problem is the community that only want the easiest and quickest way out, and that's why it's hard to find decent PUGs in some places. &mdash; User_Poki_sig.png Poki#3  (talk ) 11:49, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ask Tanetris about a non-trapper ranger going to DOA, it's very possible, and workable. The grind is all player driven, to earn titles. There is no one forcing you to do that, it's a choice you make. Since the change to the PvE only skills, you don't even need title rank for skills to be effective, but all of this is really off the track of this topic, which is suppose to be about the discord build, which Linsey has answered. There will always be that group of people who want the fastest, easiest route to "completion" rather than simply enjoying the game. I achieved my vanquisher titles before EotN was even released, so, no consumables other than what candy canes I could horde from Wintersday or lucky clovers, etc. and no PvE only skills either. Please don't tell me that vanquishing is impossible without the Discord build. --[[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png | Wyn's Talk page]] Wyn 12:47, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually how are we supposed to deal with the 3x 300dmg/searing flames dryders along with 2 mesmers who drain energy and interrupt all-day long? Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Sig.jpg|10px‎]] 12:06, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I kill them before they kill me. You should try that. Works quite well. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 12:54, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Whah whah whah... - Drakora 07:30, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Heavy Equipment Bag
I think these have been priced way off/too high. I'll quote someone else's thoughts on this from guru:

"The 20 slot equipment pack costs 15 gold coins. A gold coin costs 10 silver coins. A silver coin costs 50 copper coins.

so: 15*10*50=7.500

Well fair play I'll just farm the quests... 1 being able to do by myself taking between 30 mins - 1 hour a 20 copper coins. So if I do one of those a day I'll have the pack in:

7.500/20=375

so it's going to take me 375 days to get that one stupid equipment pack??? Well even if I did that daily quest on all of my 7 characters then it would take me more than 53 days!"

I have to agree with him, all that grind and effort for a simple bag. Considering alot of people have multiple character they may want this bag for and the coins cant even be traded. --77.97.23.245 11:35, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

IMO they are overpriced as well. Practically speaking, the SEP is 2.5 plat at a merchant, and has five slots that are limited to weapons/offhands only. However, both a belt pouch and bag cost only 100G each for unlimited 5 slot storage; add 500G for a rune of holding (600G total for unlimited 10 slot bags), and that 2.5 plat limited 5 slot storage just seems way too much comparatively speaking. And as mentioned above, the number of coins needed to get the larger size packs is really impractical for players with only a few characters to farm them with. Even with two accounts and a lot of chars each whole could do most of the PvE ones, it will take a long time for me to have any chance of getting a pack for one character, let alone even a few (I can't even think about trying to get them for all). Getting a heavy pack doesn't necessarily have to be quick and easy, but right now, all the packs are too far on the other end of the spectrum. HanokOdbrook 11:40, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I think that these quests are just a small part of what it to come and that there are quest way more profidable. Fox007  [[Image:User Fox007 sig4.png|19px|User:Fox007]] 12:09, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, doing 1/3rd of the Quests each day is going to take a long time. If he does 2-3, that amount of time goes down a lot. If you do 2-3 on multiple characters that time is pretty much gone. I know people who will be getting the HEP today. DarkNecrid 12:38, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That's only doing one quest out of three. And in Normal mode. Doing the easiest quest only in hard mode yields 50 coins. That cuts it down to 150 days. If you do it on 2 characters, that's 75. Doing two quests a day on two characters, you're down to about 30. Doing all three quests on single character, getting the maximum reward, gives you about 450 coins. That's 17 days. When you look at more than the easy way out, of course it's going to take longer. If you want the reward, then you've got to earn it.--Pyron Sy 12:44, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * @DarkNecrid: I find that hard to believe as right now you can't even move the coins between the chars of an account. 7500 coins on one char after only 2 days?
 * @Pyron Sy: But only if you can do all 3 quests. If you're not into PvP (which so far gives the most points, >>50%) you already lose a lot of points each day.
 * So all-in-all I have to agree with IP. My suggestion would be to change the bronze->silver conversion rate to 10->1. [[Image:User Xelonir sig.png| ]]Xelonir 13:03, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * TBH I think anet is missing a great opportunity to allow people to get their pve characters pvp rdy.If you could get cheap elite tomes and normal tomes there (especially the normal ones) it would get a lot easier really :/ All that I'm intrested atm is the everlasting fireworks and the heavy equipment pack.(The tomes are to expensive and I don't care about the rest) Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.png|21x21px]] *panda*  13:13, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It's an additional reward, so I fail to see why it should be cheap. As for those coins, you'll get them...eventually. It just takes time, and effort. But I suppose that's too much to ask for in a meta that wants everything yesterday. 145.94.74.23 16:03, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Because the game originally was pvp oriented.It has always had a pvp core and they are just turning their back to WHAT ITS ORGIINAL DESIGN WAS.Getting characters pvp rdy very quickly is not only awesome but also good for people because they can get to the real thing the more they can practise.Even when skills > skill its still important.And the less you have to grind for your build the more fun you can have in elite areas. Lilondra [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.png|21x21px]] *panda*  17:06, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * There is a difference between "not cheap" and "taking insanely long" - especially when it concerns basic stuff like storage. [[Image:User Xelonir sig.png| ]]Xelonir 17:35, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * agreed on lowering the conversion rate i think it should be something like 5>10 or just let us use bath faction or gold money to buy coins.75.165.119.187 17:29, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Or, since you can buy Z-Keys with golden Z-Coins, add a functionality to convert the points from XTH to gold Z-Coins. [[Image:User Xelonir sig.png| ]]Xelonir 17:35, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * To those saying that it will take a long time, once the Live Team fixes the bug of not being able to transfer coins via storage, the time will go down a LOT for one pack. Also, you should put in effort to getting the coins - like DarkNecrid and Pyron said, if you do more than one normal mode quest the time drastically reduces. Especially once you factor in multiple characters. And mind you, that the 20 slot pack is optional, most people except for the armor/weapon packrats won't need it. Most will probably be happy with the 10 slot, or even 5 (which you can get right now hands down). Better things require more work, so get to it and less QQ please. -- Azazel The Assassin\talk 17:39, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay ive been following this subject for a wee bit of time but people seem to be missing the point. The poin of these quests were to revitalise the game and focus the player base on certain areas of it. Making the most desired product the hardest to get I think is a good idea, as it keeps people interested longer. Putting in an option to convert XTH points to gold coins defeats this purpose compleatly. Yes its hard but so what, doing all 3 quests today gets you 6 silver coins roughly. Most people have at least 8 PvE chars. Personally I have 10 main PvE chars, thus meaning that I've made 60 Silver coins. Thats 6 Gold coins. Meaning im only 9 gold coins short of my first pack. This storage is not needed its just extra and helpful. You've managed for years without it, if you cant be bothered doing the quests and so forth, buy them when people start trading them later next month. Personally I'm loving it!!!!! I haven't had this much fun in game in such a long time. I honestly think those complaining need a bit of perspective. This is one of the few things you really have to work for and I'm happy to finally have something that needs a little effort. -- Salome  [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 17:49, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying everything should be cheap not at all.I'm saying the eq pack and the tomes (especially) should be +- cheap.Getting pve characters pvp rdy takes to much time.And afaik you don't like doing shing jea,kaieng center then kilroy then the rest of the world 10 million times over and over again. Lilondra  [[Image:User_Lilondra_Sig.png|21x21px]] *panda*  18:43, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * fucking QQ moar, then everything will be done your way. --Cursed Angel [[Image:User Cursed Angel Signature2.jpg|19px|Q.Q]] 19:02, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Just remember, folks, that this is a brand new update, and, although it has been tested and pondered over how-many-hundreds-of-times by the entire update team, there may still be some bugs and imbalances. Linsey has already told us that some of the zcoin rewards were intentionally priced high so that it wouldn't become the default method of getting those items, and that these prices are subject to change if necessary.  If you don't want to spend your time doing zquests, then why not buy the items you want from another player who does have that time.  IMO, I wouldn't be surprised if they also introduced other options to getting those items later on.  --Musha [[Image:User_Musha_Sigc.png|19x19px]] Talk  21:52, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This is just disappointment that they can't just log on and get this stuff, they actually have to work for it. It really isn't going to take as long as some people think. Each zquest has a different reward, so while the first day's rewards made it seem impossible the reward for THK in hm today is 90 coppers. Doing it on my 11 characters, that will be 990 points. As the days progress, I'm sure the more difficult/lengthy missions will provide a higher reward. It's not difficult, it just takes time. If you want the stuff, be willing to put in the time. --[[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png | Wyn's Talk page]] Wyn 22:39, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * 'They' being normal casual players? While it may be possible, are you really going to play through THK in HM 11 times in one day? Theoretical maximums and actual reasonable possibilities are two different things. Those people responding honestly think these are resonable conditions or are they just playing the default part of defending ANet? Currently the effort required is not worth the payoff, its only a bag, not a title or vast wealth, a bag. --77.97.23.245 23:08, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Casual players are not going to be spending their time grinding for coins. This item is aimed at dedicated players.  I'm dedicated, but not to running all 12 of my pve through each Z mission.  So, it will take some time to get, so be it. &mdash; Mar  [[Image:User_Mar_Master_Sig2b.png|19px|Talk ]] Master  23:16, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * @Lilondra: You don't have to get your PvE characters PvP ready quickly, that's what PvP characters are for. @ the rest: casual players may not be able to get the heavy pack quickly, but they also don't need that much extra space. They don't have multiple weapon sets and they don't farm heaps of items. And seeing how a pack with just 5 slots less is WAY cheaper, I think Wynn hit the nail on the head. No easy farm here, not this time guys. 145.94.74.23 00:07, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Why would a casual player need an equipement pack??? Surely the storage they have would be sufficient? -- Salome  [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 00:19, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * @Wyn: it may be fun for some people to run all their PvE Chars through all missions again and again. I have 10 non-mule chars on my main account, too, but I'm not gonna do that. In the past I ran them through a complete campaign one at a time to avoid this kind of repetitivenes. Doing the same stuff again and again on one day has already driven me away from this game for a couple of times, so I try to avoid that (Not to mention that after working+commuting there's just no 12 hours left to do it).
 * And no, I don't expect to just log on and be able to buy it. But a reward and the efford to get it have to match somehow. In my eyes, they don't. [[Image:User Xelonir sig.png| ]]Xelonir 08:11, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm disappointed one of the more useful and functional items, the Heavy Equipment Pack requires so much grind to get it. I sat around working out merchant value for each copper coin based on the static priced items at the merchant then still got to the same conclusion I had before I started working it out: it's stupid. Just add the other packs to the merchant, I'd rather farm/grind another way to get 60K to buy a Heavy Pack then be forced into a situation to either do the quests or be at the mercy of a player controlled market.  My opinion.  000.00.00.00 10:49, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * First of all, I'd like to say that I love all the new content you guys gave us. The added storage was much appreciated, Nicolas was a nice touch that gave us all something stress-free to do (especially the weekly reward). The Zaishen quests by themselves are also brilliant, giving you an incentive to push for that hard mode mission or revisit a boss you haven't been to in a while. The Zaishen menagerie is lovely and extremely useful. It reduced a lot of grind and opens up the ability to use different pets you've gotten before, without having to retrain them. All in all, I applaud the content, it's a great addition to the game as it gives us new things to do or the incentive to do things we've put off for too long :)
 * But ... of course there's a but. Truly my only grief at the moment is the Heavy Equipment Pack *sighs*. Such a wonderful item, one that I would gladly work towards getting on all my chars, because they all do need it. The problem is the time it takes to get. It is far beyond the definition of grind, it takes it to a whole new level. I've done and been everywhere with my 10 main chars, so they can theoretically reach any Zaishen quest, be that mission or bounty, but even if I spent 10 hours (minimum) a day doing the PvE Zaishen quests, it would take me well over a week to get one single pack. And 10 hours a day isn't even possible, I have a life outside of Guild Wars.
 * Now you may say I don't need to get the pack, and you're entitled to that opinion. My opinion however is that the price (in terms of time committed) is far too high. I don't mind working for it, but throw us a bone, please, don't reserve this for people who have no life. They have far too many advantages as it is.
 * - Kherec 14:31, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Why are people complaining this is so difficult and things are soooo hard and take a year or more to achieve? Stop complaining and get out there... to PLAY! My current worth in ZCoins (assuming I add the various characters' coins together, which I will after the bug fix!): 3 Gold, 9 Silver, 5 Copper. I've not bothered with the PvP quests and I've skipped a good few of the bounties and missions. Some of my characters have no coins at all, I only really worked decently at them on 4 characters total. So no, it definitely won't take anywhere near as long as OP seems to think. Of course it requires some effort to get the stuff from the gold collector- there's a few good items to obtain. A lot of them could do with a little lowering of the cost, but it's really not that difficult. Gogo Hard Mode! :) -- Elv 14:18, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, no one (ok, someone probably did) says they should give it out for free. But you yourself said the price could be lowered a bit and that's exactly what most people in this thread thinks. And you're wrong about one thing, you don't just "play" to get them, you need to grind, grind, grind and grind some more. Sure, there's a lot of grinding in the game already, but that's no reason to add such a highly useful item as yet another grind-item.
 * Usually grind-items are highly optional, or cosmetic, not actually extremely useful and otherwise non-obtainable.
 * - Kherec 20:37, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No, of course they shouldn't be free, but I wanted to point out one important thing: the rewards are nowhere near as difficult to obtain as the OP claims. For one thing, the example of 20 coins per day goes for doing one single quest in Normal Mode, and what's more, if it takes you 30 minutes to an hour to go out and kill a boss like Molotov Rocktail in NM (you really only need to kill 1 mob to get to him, 2 or 3 if you get a bad spawn / have another quest active) then I wonder how a player like that ever came by the money to have a lot of equipment in the first place... Kanaxai might take much longer to get to, but you get more coins for him as well. The same reasoning can be used with the mission quests- most missions, especially if you go NM, really don't take anywhere near an hour to complete. (Remember Raisu Palace? Even in HM it takes less than 30 minutes, and that's for the max reward- with a decent team you could do it in less than half that time.)
 * I personally don't feel the grinding is so horrible. For me, it's an incentive to play characters I don't play often and to take them to areas they may not have been to before. It's also a great motivation to do Hard Mode things on them that I may not have bothered with if it hadn't been for the quests. It is also a nice way to make a little extra money for those who really don't much like the more old school forms of farming... but the most important bonus, to me, is that these quests have brought some old friends back to Guild Wars and I can play with them again, ZQuests or other things once finished.
 * So bearing in mind that the calculation OP posted is extremely exaggerated, and taking into consideration some of the advantages of this new system, the prices aren't that steep. Some items may be a little on the pricy side but they're really not impossible. For instance, I think the Heavy Equipment Pack would be more suitably priced at 8 or 10 gold coins, but an item like the Everlasting Crate of Fireworks can be justified to cost 50. Equipment Packs aren't entirely unavailable, either: those who are really desperate for some more room can spend 2.5 and buy a Small one while they work on the larger one(s). (I did, for multiple characters.) That's not expensive either, it's only a little more than a Superior Salvage Kit and you earn it back with 3 or so Zaishen Quests anyway.
 * In short: coins are really not that hard to get, the rewards are really not that overpriced and unobtainable, and it's not much of a grind in my eyes. Zaishen Quests are relatively easy, motivate me to play other characters more, and take me to different areas every day. Compare that to, say, a title like Secret Agent, which almost certainly requires you to vanquish area A, B, or C over and over, and you'll realise that this system is really not that bad. :) -- [[Image:User_Elveh_sig.png|15px]] Elv 08:46, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Most PvE-quests give a total of 120-130 zaishen coppers a day, the PvP-quest so far average slightly over 200 coppers, for a single character. And while some are fast, it's a low estimate to say that it takes an hour (several hours if you do all three) to do the quests every day. Considering the current price of 15 zaishen gold, which is 7500 coppers, it would take 58 days for a person to get an equipment pack, assuming he can get to every single boss and mission, and again, assuming you can hero/hench it, or find groups of people to do it with that'll succeed. Or assuming you have a good guild in order to get people to do Alliance Battle, Guild vs Guild etc.
 * How many people failed PUG'ing the Deep when Kanaxai was there? You all assume it's a sureshot to do all quests every day, but it's not. You also assume everyone have 10+ characters (who, incidentally can also do everything) to grind the quests 10 hours a day ... which, again, is not normal. Does most people even play 10 hours a day?
 * So the fact of the matter is -- It takes a player a minimum of one month (assuming he can do all three quests) but more likely two months (if he can only do either the PvP-quest or the PvE-quests) to get an equipment pack. While the time can be cut down by being able to do the quests on several characters, the price is still too steep.
 * - Kherec 10:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm fairly certain I already pointed it out in previous posts here, but... I haven't bothered with PvP quests at all, and there are a fair few boss quests (like Kanaxai) and mission quests I hadn't bothered with either to give my earlier figures. (Because no, I don't assume everyone has 10+ characters that can do everything- not even my main 10 have achieved that yet, and so I've been forced to skip more than I wanted to myself.) I didn't spend anywhere close to 10 hours a day on the quests, and frankly, I don't have that time even if I wanted to. I still earned over 5 gold coins in less than a week that way. Sure, some quests are a little harder than others, but there are plenty among them that are relatively easy and rewarding enough to do on several characters. So before you go and assume things about me, or, worse yet, assume that I am assuming things (which I am not), please take the time to read everything I have previously said a little more carefully. You really don't need 10 or more maxed characters, you don't need to do every quest 10+ times every day (in HM), and it certainly won't take you 10+ hours a day to do so. My figures above are with a lot of leeway, and show that even people who don't have an awful lot of time or characters can earn a HEP pretty easily. Now excuse me while I go and use some of those gold coins I earned without too much effort. -- [[Image:User_Elveh_sig.png|15px]] Elv 09:39, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * My concern remains for the disparity among the other purchasable storage items and the EPs, and even this disparity between the 15 slot pack and the 20 slot pack (makes no sense to have 20 slots take the same amount of time/zcoin as 45 slots), in addition to the time that will be needed by the average GW player who does not have the advantage of hours/day, HM, and PvP in which to grind/farm enough coins to acquire a pack. I would like to see the cost of bags, HRunes, and the belt pouch raised and the price of the 5 slotter decreased to bring all these items more in line with each other. The time/zcoin needed for the 10 lowered and to make it more accessible to the average casual player, and the time/zcoin needed lowered for the 20 slotter to have it make more sense compared with the 15 slotter. Hardly QQing, but as always, that certain "segment" of the community can't quite grasp that bit of information. HanokOdbrook 17:44, 2 May 2009 (UTC)


 * No, leave the prices of the others alone.. as for the Eq-Bags, if you need more than the small, you have to work for it or use a mule, sorry just my little opinion.MystiLefemEle 08:50, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Just wanted to say that today marks the point at which, if one were to complete every quest with one character, one could get a Heavy Equipment Pack. That's 22 days... More than three times the week that you had calculated (or so I read in a comment last month). I think you've done a great job in adding all the new content, but while I do feel that there should be long-term rewards involved, I agree with most of the people here in that the equipment packs (at least the heavy one) should cost less. It isn't as much of a luxury item as something like an everlasting crate of fireworks (which I would love to purchase at some point, though apparently years into the future when GW2 may or may not be released yet); it's something that improves the performance of our characters. It's one of the things players were begging for last year: the answer to the storage dilemma. Unfortunately, we have to put in several hours per day for several weeks doing quests we might not even enjoy, all for an equipment bag to expand the storage for one character. I can see the reasoning behind getting a 15-slot bag and working up to the big one, but why make the extra 5 slots cost an extra 10 coins (two weeks at this rate)? Personally, the fireworks seem like enough of a reward to check out the daily quest and complete it if I feel I would enjoy it. Other such items would keep us interested in the quests, but not at the expense of doing things we enjoy and really having fun in the game. The heavy equipment pack is good for pulling us in, but it feels so much more forced. "You need the storage? You do our quests... Yeah, that's what I thought." Again, you've done a great job; I'm just offering my advice on how (and why) to improve it even more. --RoyHarmon 21:04, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I have 12 PVE maxed characters, how am I supposed to get 12 heavy equipment bags for all of them? It will take me a year+ to do that, and do I really need to farm zquests more than once to the point where it's not fun anymore and it just goes back to grinding? Doing anything more than just a few times seems like grinding to me and then the fun disappears. It becomes more of goal than anything else. Zquests are to get us back into playing and the fun, not more grinding like titles. Wetwillyhip 00:31, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Uh...Who's forcing you to get 12 heavy equipment bags for everyone? "Hey, look at me, I have 30 characters, I need 3600 ectos to make FoW armor for all of them, woe is me!!!!". Doesn't make any sense. You have been playing just fine until now without 20 extra inventory spaces per character. Erasculio 01:54, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Since my original statement above I've went back and thought some more about it. To be honest i'm a bit torn. On one side I see the point of it being so high and agree with that as it's the main thing which is motivating people to do zquests. However on the other side in comparission to a 15 slot bag it is 300% more expensive for only 25% gain in utility. Seems a tad odd. So personally I don't know. Maybe a minor reduction to 10 gold would be a compromise with the addition of extra high end items to spend ones gold coins on like everlasting tonics etc... Honestly though I can see both sides of the debate and they both have fair points. -- Salome  [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 02:39, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't mind the implementation of new items to go under the Gold Coins section. As long as it's not Everlasting Disco Balls or weapons. Everlasting Tonics, sure, Everlasting Sweets (town ones to have a perma-fast run, people would get that for sure), yes, Everlasting Summoning Stones/Random Tonics, pass. Add more Gold Coin items, but keep them reasonable. Besides, after the 20 e-pack, you have tomes, both elite and normal, party/sweet/drunkard points, perfect salvage kits, id kits, salvage kits, etc. A little more work for the later, but cheaper as well. And worthy of a "side-item" of getting the quests done for titles. -- Azazel The Assassin\talk 03:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * i would like to see some way of getting zcoins via bath faction. i also think they should add the equipment bags to the zchest, along with getting stacks of coins.--[[Image:User_Zesbeer_sig.png|Talk Page‎]] Zesbeer 03:45, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Give PvP'ers an easier way to get ZCoins compared to PvE'ers. Nice thinking. PvP Zaishen quests are already repeatable, and they all give Balthazar Faction. While it does make since for the Zaishen to give their coins in other ways, it gives too much benefit to those who do the PvP ZQuests. The ZChest is another topic, but I disagree with the packs dropping from there. Maybe the 5 slot one, at a similar % chance as the regular tonics, maybe a 15 pack at the rate of an Everlasting Monthly Tonic. Though I still disagree. And getting 1 copper Zaishen Coin would be the worst drop to come from there. x) -- Azazel The Assassin\talk 03:54, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Instead making Zcoins drop from the chest, I'd rather exchange tournament points for Zcoins and a little gold, and then if anyone wants to get the Keys, they an get them themselves. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 13:26, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

HEP: Lowering the cost - fact or fiction?
I've seen some discussion over ANet thinking about lowering the cost of HEP (which is ofc what the above discussion is about). I can't find the appropriate discussions - but could someone confirm if there is an official response in the change of HEP prices? Is it >90% certain they will not change or should I keep my Zoins till one of the next updates? -- Karasu (talk) 08:32, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * if they change the cost then i hope the refund anyone who already got one.--[[Image:User_Zesbeer_sig.png|link=User talk:Zesbeer‎]] Zesbeer 10:00, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've read that they may consider chanign the prices of 'some of the items'. But never specifically the bags. Like when the Margonite Gem casem a refund shouldn't be impossible. But that would probably require to make a 'copy' of the bags to have two versions, so the cheaper version can't be used in the refund. But there's also the 'exclusivity over time' thing, that makes things acquired sooner have hhiger prices than the later ones (i.e.: The first Crystalline sword vs the last inscribed one) Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 13:24, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I too have seen some chat about anet lowering the zcoin price for some things but the HEP was never expressly mentioned. IMHO it really needs halved to about 8 Gold Zoins, (maybe even 10 at a push) as 15 is just far too high and it is counter intuitive, it doesnt make one want to do the quests, as its TOO much work to get them making it seem somewhat unattainable. (ive heard countless times now people saying "well i only want the HEP but its just way too much grind, so i cant be bothered). At 10 coins, the HEP becomes attainable with effort and time, thus I think it would motivate more people to do the zquests. -- Salome  [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 12:27, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * @Zesbeer: In the same way that you won't get a refund if you buy a computer and the price drops in six months, you'll likely not get a refund for being an early adopter of an HEP, either. Besides, it would likely be a logistical nightmare to have to go and find out all the people that did get them. And if they did manage to track them down, what if the person sold it to someone else? Then who gets the refund? -- ★ KOKUOU ★ 12:32, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As Kokuou said, I really doubt that refunds will occur. The torment gems were different, you used them to get a non tradable hero. Thus anyone who had the hero had paid the gem price, however as the HEP is tradable, anet have no way of knowing who should be getting the refund to what. So no i dont think a refund is in order, if you buy crafting mats from one of the traders and then later the prices drop, you don't get that money back, so why should you get money back for this? -- Salome  [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 12:36, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, that's true, the armors are an example of that. The non-maxed armors got their prices reduced, but the reduction was not retroactive. Only the properties. So if anyone had 2 or more Obsidian armors because they had different properties, they would find now they have two obsidian armors they could be changing with insignia. And that was more acute after the addition of perfect kits. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 13:10, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Mind the topic .. In first place weither or not there will be a lowering of the cost is of much more importance to me. --[[Image:User_Karasu_sig.png|19px]] Karasu (talk) 13:19, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Personally, I have to disagree with lowering the price of the equipment packs. I don't see it as a counter initiative at all, it would in fact mean people have to play longer to get it (even though not everyone needs it, everyone wants it) and would then keep people busy for a long time. The only change in zcoins I think should happen would be quest rewards. That is, more for certain bosses. As it seems to me, the bosses are set into "Explorable Boss" "Dungeon Boss" and "Elite Boss" - in that order of lowest to highest coins given - which is a bad thing, imo, as some explorable bosses are harder than dungeon (Kunvie and Joffs anyone?) and some dungeons bosses harder than some elites (Selvetarm in HM is harder than the two UW bounties given so far). Instead of coins based on location, it should be coins based on difficulty. Especially when the easiest mission ever gives more coins than explorable bosses. Sorry, guess I went a bit off topic and went to ranting. >_> -- Azazel The Assassin\talk 22:35, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's counter intuitive because the time spent/cost doesnt in anyway equate to the reward. (300% more gold coins for 25% extra space is odd) Meaning alot of people just cant be bothered doing it and only farm til 5 gcoins. This isn't a case of just being lazy, it's a case of for my 10 chars i would have to farm 150 gold coins, when looked at in that way I just end up seeing it the same way I view the zkey title and think "too much hassle for a game", thus its not making people play longer, its making people play the zquests less as the aim is just too grindy for people to be arsed doing it. -- Salome  [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 22:46, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Think about it though, do you really need the Heavy Equipment Pack for all 10 of your characters? I only need it for two of 9. The rest can use 5 or 10 packs. It's the same thing as saying "I'm going to max every title on all my characters! Even though I just need to max 30, I'm going to max more than that!" So really, it's not the price as much as it is your too high goal. Though lowering the cost to 10, wouldn't be terrible.-- Azazel The Assassin\talk 22:49, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I would imagine the 300% jump is more of a deterrent than anything else: seperating the men from the boys, as it were. So that those who actually 'need' it will do so by subjecting themselves to the game-lengthening nature of the task, whereas those who don't really need it will either stick with 10-15 space bags over multiple characters, or just the 5 space pack that can be easily brought.
 * Arenanet is effectively giving away free storage space at no monetary cost. Personally, I'd like the monetary option: sell the damn things through the online store.  As much as I'd like the heavy bag doing the Z stuff just isn't an option, it requires far too much time to do it when taking my play-style and amount of time to play, and the only way to see progress quickly is to do it over multiple characters.  I have a desire for more storage spaces, specifically armor and weapons (related to the HoM in same ways) but I find I'm stuck between too over-priced options:  buying Storage Tabs at a ridiciously over-priced price tag or grinding through the Z-stuff which in itself over ridiciously over-done when comparing it to how I play.  Maybe this is why I've slowed down playing Guild Wars.  [shrugs]  000.00.00.00 23:22, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * There is some variation in the values of explorable bounties - Nulfastu and Borrguus, for instance. However, a lot of lower-bounty bosses are just as awkward if not more to take out, and this tends to relegate them to a 'not worth the effort unless I was planning to go that way anyway' level. Draxynnic 06:37, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * for them to do a refund i dont know how that would work and it s not really my job to know. but i do know that once i got my HEP i haven't tried for another many because i know regardless of what happens the selling price for them is going to go way down in a year. and to answer the question about having HEP on all my toon yes i do need it for all 10 of my toons because as soon as i got it i filled it up along with the all of the new storage tabs that i got and now i am back to using mules--[[Image:User_Zesbeer_sig.png|link=User talk:Zesbeer‎]] Zesbeer 23:51, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I alos need it on all 10 chars mainly because I own 5 sets of prestige armour per character. Thus that takes up an awfully big amount of space in my storage. -- Salome  [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 09:45, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Not to mention weapons and headgear for multiple attributes, high-energy sets, low-energy sets, etc. (yes, some people actually use that kind of stuff in PvE, too). [[Image:User Xelonir sig.png| ]]Xelonir 10:21, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Most people agree that they should cost less and even be sold in merchants, and other stuff should be in the gold collector to make people want the quests anyways. Unfortunately, there are not mmany things that would make people interested. Most of them would be things like a Zaishen weapon set, a Zaishen armor, miniatures or everlasting stuff. Most of the other things in those collectors have already faster and cheaper sources of acquisition. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 13:21, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Armours or weapons i think is a bit much personally. standard and everlasting tonics and summoning stones I think would make enough people want to do it. -- Salome  [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 15:36, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As Salome said, new armors and weapons is a bit much, but having normal monthly tonics at double the price of Zaishen Tonics, and everlasting tonics for at least half the price as Everlasting Crates of Fireworks [no more than the same price(to prevent them from being very common)], would be a nice addition, in my opinion. -- Azazel The Assassin\talk 21:06, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This is quickly becoming a suggestions thread. If you have an opinion on the price of the HEP, fine, if you wish to suggest alternatives put it on your userpage since Linsey can't comment on it. --[[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png | Wyn's Talk page]] Wyn 21:11, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I was actually thinking that what I just said, and what Mith said, sounded like a suggestion. I did not intend to say a suggestion, just to state if I ended up doing so. ^_^ -- Azazel The Assassin\talk 21:16, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wyn is right, as usual. So to refocus back on the OP, does anyone know for certain if HEP's cost will be reduced? -- Salome  [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 11:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * i am going to go with a no. seeing as they reduced the coins for hb. if anything you think they would up the coins....--[[Image:User_Zesbeer_sig.png|link=User talk:Zesbeer‎]] Zesbeer 02:11, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the price for a HEP should be 10% (at the max.) of what it is right now, so you can get one in 10h of play. The current price would be OK if it would unlock the HEP for
 * the account and then get a HEP for, let's say, 100G for every char. Atm the grind necessary for a HEP is not only insane, it's INSANE. It's like as if you'd had to pay
 * 5k for a staff and 250k for a wand/focus set at a crafter. Atm the price for a HEP is so high that I don't care about the Z-quests.--Kali The Devourer 16:46, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * And again were back into suggestion land (not to mention stupid suggestions at that) 10% of the price is just ludicrously low. -- Salome  [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 17:49, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That is my opinion. :-) And you think 10% of the currnt price is ludicrously low? Let's see: for an old 10 slot bag you pay 100G + rune of holding (3 battle commendations
 * (=400G)) = 500G. *2 = 1k (for 20 slots). Now I saw on Guruauctions a HEP for 220k - 250k. Now compared to the old bags, the HEP is clearly overpriced. Now don't
 * get me wrong: if someone is grinding his / her ass off in order to get a HEP, he / she certainly deserves 250K. The problem is the idea to revive nearly "dead"
 * areas of the game by letting ppl grind for more or less desperately needed storage space on the characters (in part caused by Anet by item inflation (books, ...)).
 * And I compare the HEP with what was necessary to get the Black Moa Bird. The quest chain I had to complete for the bird took me ~6h and I got a prestige pet
 * (lvl 20, "ready for use") for me and my heroes and displayable in the HoM. I think that was a fair deal. And the HEP isn't a prestige thing (you can not
 * display it in the HoM) and you can not show it like a minipet (or elite armor). So in my opinion 10h "work" (or 25k) for one HEP should be more than enough
 * (if one has 26 characters that's 260h or 66 days @4h a day for 26 HEPs). Anything beyond that I consider as a rip off. And one more comparison: a storage tab
 * expansion in the Xunlei Storage costs ~9 Euro (~10$). If you have a decent full time job, that's 5 - 20 mins. of work (for a 20 slot tab). If this isn't enough
 * proof that the HEP is way overpriced, I don't know what else is.--Kali The Devourer 23:51, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I feel like a 10 gold coin cost would be reasonable as a fair progression from large to heavy. 15 is a bit excessive for the casual player who doesn't want to grind. Rising Dusk 18:31, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Why is this Topic still here? The "Cost" of the HEP was effectively (in a circular way) lowered by the last update that increased most PvE rewards (by ~40%??). Is that not enough? In either case, I would assume that update was Lin's "answer" to this complaint. And if it's not, then there's already lots of Sections Here to continue discussing it in. -- ilr  23:12, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I dont agree, and Linsey didnt directly reply to the topic either. As for the update, the lowered cost was insufficient, the unnecessary grind is still there for a simple container.   --77.97.23.248 01:03, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't see it was increased. I haven't been doing the Zuests or even PvE since the reset due to recent updates. And as I see it it's only increased 10%. This still rises the same question: why bother buying a HEP if the 15 pack one is much cheaper. I still want an official response about this and no more suggesions. --[[Image:User_Karasu_sig.png|19px]] Karasu (talk) 19:29, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ohhh, okay I apologize then. I musta missed seeing that as the primary request... -- ilr [[image:User_ilr_deprav.png]] 19:54, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and give a blanket response for both of these topics. Sorry it took me so long to get to this topic, but it's a tricky one and if you hadn't noticed, that's a lot of text there! I spent a long time working on the numbers for the Zquests and Zcoin rewards. I recognize that the cost of the Heavy Equipment Pack is high and this was done purposefully. As we have said before, increasing the amount of data that each character takes up, is a risky thing and we needed to do this delicately to ensure our servers stability. The HEP is priced so that only the hardcore will get it quickly and for the rest of the population, the increase in data will dribble in gradually. We have all managed without those extra 20 slots, it isn't the end of the world if it takes you a while to get them. I increased the rewards given by the Mission and Bounty quests by more than 10%. In most cases, it was a 50% increase. I did this because I felt that the quests were being under rewarded. I certainly recognized that the change effectively lowers the cost of the HEP, and found this to be a welcome side-effect, but this was not the main reason for it. I don't have any plans to change the price of the HEP at this time. If/When we take another look at storage, I might re-evaluate the equipment pack prices but for the time being it will remain the same. - Linsey talk 20:24, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

MAy 14TH Skill Update
Actually I don't know whether to be happy that you're finally doing something about skills. You know why? Right now anything you do is too late. Shadow form and 600 smite is how people play this game now. Why wouldn't they? You gave them an overpowered tool. And then just SIT ON THE PROBLEM for almost a year. :( really? I get it, you don't have time, overworked, tired, too much on your plate. Swift easy action as soon as shadow form proved to be an issue would have been nice. Instead you change the skillbars of UW creatures. Yeah. THAT solved the problem. :( Sry for the rant, just really disappointed at how this was handled. Let's give them shadow form! and then you spend many updates changing and tinkering and spending A LOT OF TIME YOU DIDNT REALLY HAVE trying to "fix" it. And then, when you realize you don't HAVE any more time to deal with it, you leave it, as a festering boil, for months. 187.37.61.54 20:41, 7 May 2009 (UTC)


 * or how about they fix pvp considering pve is worthless. 174.131.115.231 15:13, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Planning some long wall of text, Prepare arenanet folks. I'm going to show you how big mistakes have you made. Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Sig.jpg|10px‎]] 04:55, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * We included a note about this in the June Dev Update. I don't really have anything more to say about it at the moment. - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 02:50, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Is there any chance of taking a look at the ritualist profession soon?
Many people agree that this profession has been overlooked, especially with lack of updates to it. Most of the skills in the Communing line have been Nerfed to be quite useless, and the lackluster primary attribute spawning power and useless spirits across the board. By looking at the skill feedback area there has not been any activity by the devs in months on ritualists, which makes it seem to me they have been swept under the carpet and forgotten about. Could you shed any light on this subject? Thank you for your time Valen Spiritbinder 22:28, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed they need a buff to spawning power how i feel right now is that you can play a primary necro or ele and do a better job at doing normally rit things then a rit can.--[[Image:User_Zesbeer_sig.png|Talk Page‎]] Zesbeer 23:50, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Rits are the best with Channel/Resto Split. The other two lines are very meh.  But Channeling and Resto together make them very effective at offensive and defensive support.  I do wish communing and spawning power would get some love and channeling needs 1 skill in particular nerfed a bit.~>Sins <font color="#CA1F7B" size="2px"> WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 23:59, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * There are lot of skills in Resto and Channeling that need a rework. Communing and Spawning are very weak attributes, and 90% of Rit's spirits are useless. I agree with other people here, that Ritualists need an update. Kigamo 04:24, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You could say that about many professions tbh. Tactics is useless period, swords are bad compared to axe damage and hammer utility, beast mastery is just shit overall (mostly because pets are so limited), water magic is bad on eles, air magic is a one-trick pony that isn't powerful enough to compete with the super power creeped crap that exists now, illusion is pretty lacking, blood magic has always been bad in pve and poorly designed for pvp, deadly and shadow arts are both equally useless (with the exception of 1 pvp gimmick and 1 pve gimmick), and wind and earth prayers have never been useful. Rits aren't alone in the whole "i have so much worthless shit, buff plz" boat. At this point, however, those changes would require a lot of work to ensure they're playable yet balanced - I don't think it would add enough to the game to make it worth the time and effort from ANet. - Auron 03:00, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Generally true (I could argue about the fine points but whatever), but I think that the Ritualist problem largely comes from the fact that Spawning is a Primary Attribute, unlike the others you mentioned. &mdash; User_Poki_sig.png Poki#3  (<font color="#8B0000">talk ) 03:44, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Exactly. The lack of utility in their primary attribute makes other professions running ritualist skill lines with Soul Reaping more viable (Sabway, Discordway are both loaded with Rt skills, but that's not the limit of secondary Rits).  The only advantage to having a Primary Ritualist instead of an X/Rt is the availability of skill runes for raising attributes above 12, that's it.  There are a couple Spawning skills that are marginally useful, but are outweighed by the benefits of other professions' primaries.  [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali  03:55, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * i have to agree with rose of kali over 90000 times. an other thing take into consideration is the fact that a lot of rit builds require you to hold an item for a long wile and holding an item removes rit's ability to have half cast or more enrgey from wands and stuff like that. (i realize that not all item spells are suppose to be held for a long time)--[[Image:User_Zesbeer_sig.png|Talk Page‎]] Zesbeer 05:03, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Tactics is useless period, swords are bad compared to axe damage and hammer utility, beast mastery is just shit overall (mostly because pets are so limited), water magic is bad on eles, air magic is a one-trick pony that isn't powerful enough to compete with the super power creeped crap that exists now, illusion is pretty lacking, blood magic has always been bad in pve and poorly designed for pvp, deadly and shadow arts are both equally useless (with the exception of 1 pvp gimmick and 1 pve gimmick), and wind and earth prayers have never been useful."

LOLOLOLOLOLOL 174.131.115.231 15:15, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ip is not aware of the last 3 major nerfdates,->,, . 2 weird curveballs got buffed, Summon Spirits and the still useless Illusionary Weaponry, maybe they aim Rit for PvE only? We are all anxious for a comment of the first original poster's statement.--ShadowFog 05:10, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

This thread is not a discussion thread, just a simple question was asked and some people are changing it to suit different professions,and other problems, i understand Ritualists are not the only profession that needs help. But this only pertains to Ritualists. If you want to talk about other professions that are broken, please start another topic. It is that simple folks. Valen Spiritbinder 18:49, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

It would be really nice if we could see sth being done for ritoos. I can remember only 1 good update, which was buffing Signet of ghostly might. I hate to see that a n/rt is doing my job better than i am able to :/. Spawning power is by far the worst primary attribute in the game, and i hate the way it limits ritu by buffing his skills only. Necro's soul reaping works regardless of your profession (just look at discord, sabway etc.). The same goes for elementalist, you can use energy storage to your advantage with any other 2nd profession. Mesmers? They can cast all classes' spells and guess what? Fast casting is still there. And now look at ritualists. More %hp for spirits nad longer weapon spells? The first part works for ranger's spirits too, but honestly who cares about that? Longer weapon spells? I don't remember it being important at all. My discord/sabway necro's weapon of warding does the job without SP + he's summoning minions, healing and spamming Discord. No energy management problems. I'm not saying that ritu has any energy management problems, cause with a decent build, he doesnt. I don't want ritu skills to be made ritu only. On the contrary, I think ritu's primary should be more flexible in merging with other classes. I like ritu for being a jack of all trades, but le's be honest, compared to other classes, the number of ritualists is significantly lower, I wonder why? Probably because he was forgotten and abandoned. / KiLLi4N
 * @ Spiritbinder, just to clarify this isn't a thread at all. Threads you can find on forums. I would remind people to stay on topic however, although their really is no difference between a discussion and a question topic. Other than staying on topic and abiding by wiki policy, please don't arbitrate what people are posting. -- Salome  [[Image:User_salome_sig2.png|19px]] 18:29, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, we did a bunch of stuff to Rit's in the last balance update so I'm going to tag this for archiving. Any remaining feedback on Ritualist balance should wait for the feedback namespace but I'd like to hear then where people feel we are at with this stuff. - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 19:45, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

It's understandable....
That anet wouldn't want to nerf shadow form. Lots of people play it, and alot of ppl would get angry if it got shut down. However, this game is out of control and it needs to be taken back. Whatever happened to grouping up to kill in UW/FoW? Now it's all speed clears. I joined a group and they asked me to pay for cons... um, I just wanted to play in FoW. It's back to how it was with ursan. A decision has to be made. Is this game going to be controlled by the player base, with the current PvP meta and heroes, Shadow Form, Palm Strike? No it should not. The law has to be laid down where invincibility is illogical in a game based on survival, PvP should not have AI in it, and overpowered skills should not exist. It's common sense and I hope these can get addressed. Again, I know people will be upset, but this game cannot be controlled by the player base, it's Your Game. -- adrin  11:47, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * If anet think that perma invincibility need to stay, it means they think that pve is not balanced. But they will tell you that pve is balanced. If pve is balanced, then why perma invincibility is needed ? But they will tell you that you are not forced to use perma invincibility. If you are not forced to use perma invincibility then why cant you find a pug without it ? But anet always recommended people to play within a guild. If joining a guild is recommended, then why cant you find one that dont systematicaly use perma invincibility and heavy loads of consumables ? ....
 * John Romero once said that one of the social aspects he depicted in his movies is that, sometimes, there is nothing to do but let the new majority "eat" you, becaus if you are aware of a danger, the weaks/corruptibles will make you fall with them. Who created this majority ? If anet tell you they didnt create this majority on purpose, it means they dont control their game. If anet tell you they created this majority on purpose... .On a side note, see what directions is gw taking since they got more than 5 millions players. What will it be when they hit 7 millions ? Remember that no matter how opened to good suggestions a game designer can sometimes be, he has a big boss. And the big boss generally only think to his collection of expensive cars. Some time ago i used to make joke with anet putting "perma inside !!" on their cover boxes, they did better: perma can now be captured in prophecies. Long life to the holy might dollar, may the humanity die from its greed. Yseron - 90.29.52.251 17:31, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Who says PvE is balanced? Not I. I am more concerned about UW, FoW and DoA having issues with balance that encourage this style of play than I am concerned about Shadow Form. I would rather work on making those areas fun and bug free in ways that discourage the use of SF than work on nerfing SF into the ground. Saying it is like Ursan now is a bit of an exaggeration. Full Ursan groups were highly preferred in every single outpost of PvE, not just the more high-end areas. It wasn't just "I can't get a non-Ursan group for FoW!" it was "I can't even get a non-Ursan group for storyline missions!" - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 20:01, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No Linsey it was the whinny Q_Q squad of Guru that claimed that about Ursan. Not once had I been required to run Ursan in the groups I went with because thats how we chose to play. It was our choice it wasnt forced on anyone.Instead of making the choices themselves they choice to cry to you about itManitoba1073 04:36, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Survivor Title
Is anything going to be done about it? It's an extremely frustrating title to try and get, what with having no margin for error at all. One death and gone. The only way to get it is to farm like hell, really, and avoid taking any risks whatsoever. I was just wondering if it was ever going to be tweaked at all to make it more attainable and less frustrating. Or maybe it should just be removed entirely, I don't know. --Axwind 19:49, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Just don't give it a shit. It doesn't worth it. it's really hard to get and well... you get a little string that stays even if you have died after attaining the title, so making it meaningless. also what you said was a suggestion. Boro [[image:User_Borotvaltgandalf_Sig.jpg|10px‎]] 20:19, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It was meant to be hard. I got mine in a few days of farming Ice Cliff worms and getting chests at the same time.  It's your choice to do it the hard way, or the boring way.  I'm glad there was a boring way, because I tried the hard way (missions, quests, skill capping), and lost it like 95% to rank 3.  I sure as heck did not want to try the hard way again.  [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali  20:22, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, when I got mine, I made sure that my final XP was at exactly 1,337,500, and then died right away, so my title will always stay at that number. [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali  20:25, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm glad they fixed the Hfff because so many people got theirs that way. I got mine the hard way and trust me there is a lot of worrying about weither you mapped out quick enough.[[Image:User DrogoBoffin sig icon.png|Talk page]] Drogo Boffin 20:28, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Survivor is one of those titles that actually should exist. It's worth someone dedicating themselves to, unlike buying unid'd golds or afking on nine rings for days. ~Shard  [[Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png]] 20:35, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, the first one I lost was due to lag, and I died from a... devourer in Surmia... yes, sad. But considering I was a hair-width away from rank 3, I considered it enough to take the easy way next time, and still know to myself that I can do it the hard way.  I almost never mapped out on that character, either, never had to, but that one time that I did, it was too late. So I took Mark of Rodgort, Firestorm, a couple other spells, and went to HM worms in Ice Cliff Chasms. 700XP per kill with blue 5 minute scrolls, not bad.  And I even lagged in there (sometimes to the point of losing connection and reconnecting), but wurms can't hurt you unless you're standing next to them, so that was much safer than Kilroy, and still almost just as fast.
 * I would disagree with Shard, though. My main title character was made 3.5 years ago, so there was no chance for her to get either Survivor or LDoA, and that made me mad.  Titles that can be lost forever should not have been made, or should have been made from the start of the game.  In the case of LDoA and Survivor, the fact that they are mutually exclusive is even more frustrating.  [[Image:User Rose Of Kali SIG.jpg]]<font color="#000099">Rose Of Kali  20:44, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I got it the "old fashioned" way, I played the game and was super careful. It took me several tries, but that's what made it worth getting. Since there already are several easy, boring farms you can use to get it if you choose, it's not as tough as it once was. I don't think it needs to be changed at all. If you want it bad enough it's very much doable. If you are only wanting it to beef up your max title rank, it's the wrong title to go for anyway. --[[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png | Wyn's Talk page]] Wyn 20:52, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I've never even gotten rank 1 before, I'd be happy with just that because it's too much grind to go for the higher ranks. It's just been too hard to get even that far. --Axwind 21:18, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Rank 1 in NF with well equipped and skilled heroes is relatively easy. --[[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png | Wyn's Talk page]] Wyn 21:22, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Care to elaborate? You can move this to my talk page if you want so we don't clutter up Linsey's page any more than it already is, since the topic's gotten away from my original questions and more towards the actual doing of the title. --Axwind 22:01, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Although this is a suggestion and Wyn has no life, I've always wanted a "Friend of Grenth" title. It would be mutually exclusive to Survivor, and what it is is like survivor except instead of Surviving, the object is dying. Could have like 12 ranks using the same prefixs as the allegiance titles, with like 10,000 deaths being maxxed rank. "Sa
 * As long as it doesn't count towards the HoM title total sure wth.<font color="#C71585" size="2px">~>Sins <font color="#CA1F7B" size="2px"> WDB [[Image: User The_Sins_We_Die_By_Sig.png]] 00:09, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Lol...
 * "<Some Guy> has achieved the Legendary Defender of Ascalon title. The gods have extended their blessings."
 * "<Some Guy> has achieved the Friend of Grenth title. Grenth has extended his blessings."
 * Paddymew 06:25, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Did you know that Grenth has a "This God dont like resurection signets" user box on his page ? In game his console looks like this:
 * A new soul once named <XXX> arrived in your realm !
 * Grenth: Hello, <XXX> welcome to my real...
 * <XXX> have been recalled to the world of mortals !
 * Grenth: Oh my... ! Not again....
 * A new soul once named <YYY> arrived in your realm !
 * Grenth: Behold <YYY>, for this is the realm of the mighty Gr...
 * <YYY> have been recalled to the world of mortals !
 * Grenth: HEY ! Stop this sh...
 * A new soul once named <ZZZ> arrived in your realm !
 * Grenth: Ok, <ZZZ> if you agree to stay i will offer you this free mini zipo ! How is that grea..?
 * <ZZZ> have been recalled to the world of mortals !
 * Grenth: NO WAY, WTF ?!!!
 * Yseron - 90.9.251.183 06:19, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yseron.. you made my day.--[[Image:User_Karasu_sig.png|19px]] <font color="Black">Karasu (talk) 16:05, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Now I get that Wintersday rivalry stuff. He's just pissed Dwayna's for emptying his realm of all the good stuff. Mith[[Image:User MithranArkanere Star.png]]Talk 17:01, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I have no intention of changing the survivor title in any way. It's actually a lot friendlier than what it was modeled after. In DII, when your Hardcore character gets a death... they die. For good. No res, no getting to play the char through the rest of the game, no keeping the loot they got, nothing. As for a title based on number of deaths, this isn't by far the first time I've seen someone ask about it but I've always thought it was a terrible idea. Talk about an afk title... vamp mods gogo! And that would be the slow way! Go pull a pile of dudes over to a shrine, equip your starter armor with all sup runes on it, your -50hp grim cesta and vamp sword and prepare to afk until getting booted from the map. Dying is just about the easiest thing to do in our game. - [[Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpg]]Linsey talk 20:12, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Time spent would be the easiest thing in the game, can do anything and you get the "I Play Guild Wars!" title. And personally, I loved Hardcore Characters from DII, I wouldn't mind that being the survivor's way. x) -- Azazel the Assassin/ talk 00:47, 7 August 2009 (UTC)