Guild Wars Wiki talk:Formatting/NPCs/Archive 2

Armorers
Do the armorers really have to use those big tables now for listing armor? For example: Morbach. That page would be cool with saying "Crafts Kurzick armor." And a link to each profession kurzick armor page and a note "Also crafts elementalist auras" with links to each one. I think that could take up alot less space than those tables do at the moment, and I think they are really too big to be good. The information gets well hidden in lots of flashy-ness ;P - anja    (contribs)  19:35, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the current style is the best option for Prophecies crafters, but we can use something more concise for Factions and Nightfall crafters, like this ...


 * 1) Excluding "no attribute" headgear.
 * -- Gordon Ecker 00:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Since there's no formal guideline for armorers, I'll start converting them. -- Gordon Ecker 01:56, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * While condensing the table is a good idea, I don't like the way you've formatted it. I'll work on an alternative. - B e X  [[Image:User BeXoR sig.gif|iawtc]] 03:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Anyway, it's done. -- Gordon Ecker 04:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * If we can make smaller tables that work for both Prophecies and the others, I'm all for it. I don't care too much how they look, they were just too big before, imo. - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]]  (contribs)  08:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The table from basic PvP reward armor looks like it could be adapted. -- Gordon Ecker 10:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I actually prefer to old non-compact tables. They just look better to me. I can understand wanting to make them smaller and probably more useful, but I find the "1k" links to be a bit... inelegant. If you want compact and simple, why not just something like this:
 * {| style="text-align: center"

! Profession !! Armor --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Ab.er.rant.
 * - style="background: ;"
 * || Warrior Kurzick armor
 * - style="background: ;"
 * || Ranger Kurzick armor
 * - style="background: ;"
 * || Monk Kurzick armor
 * - style="background: ;"
 * || Necromancer Kurzick armor
 * - style="background: ;"
 * || Mesmer Kurzick armor
 * - style="background: ;"
 * || Elementalist Kurzick armor Elementalist auras
 * - style="background: ;"
 * || Assassin Kurzick armor
 * - style="background: ;"
 * || Ritualist Kurzick armor
 * }
 * That looks really nice. :) - B e X  [[Image:User BeXoR sig.gif|iawtc]] 03:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * A table with one profession per row is fine for Factions and Nightfall, but it could get messy in Prophecies due to the numerous armor sets at the same crafter, what about something like this?


 * Here's an example of how it would look in Prophecies:


 * Footnotes can be used to denote sets lacking headgear, and armorers who craft some of a profession's prophcies headgear sets but not all of them. -- Gordon Ecker 03:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Please make use of the tint colours too! - B e X  [[Image:User BeXoR sig.gif|iawtc]] 03:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ooo, nice! How's this tweaking of it:
 * {| style="margin:0.2em; border: 1px solid silver; text-align: center;" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="5"

!style="background: ;"| Warrior !style="background: ;"| Ranger !style="background: ;"| Monk !style="background: ;"| Necromancer !style="background: ;"| Mesmer !style="background: ;"| Elementalist
 * style="background: ;"| Elite Charr Hide Elite Gladiator Elite Templar
 * style="background: ;"| Elite Drakescale Elite Druid
 * style="background: ;"| Labyrinthine Elite Saintly
 * style="background: ;"| Labyrinthine Elite Saintly
 * style="background: ;"| Elite Necrotic Elite Profane Elite Scar Pattern
 * style="background: ;"| Elite Enchanter Elite Rogue
 * style="background: ;"| Elite Stoneforged Elite Stormforged
 * }
 * Btw, is it just me or does adding a "style" attribute after the "STDT" template removes the outermost table borders? -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 05:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Btw, is it just me or does adding a "style" attribute after the "STDT" template removes the outermost table borders? -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 05:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Nice table! And yea, I think any style attribute mess with the STDT, it simply runs over anything specified in the template, since it uses style. Had that problem before. - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]] 09:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I suggest not using STDT because it's very basic. You'd end up having to override any styles anyway. - B e X  [[Image:User BeXoR sig.gif|iawtc]] 12:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

NPC Dialogue
I would like suggestions on the best way to format NPC dialogue that can take multiple branches. An example of what I mean (and how I formatted it) can be found at Lord Darrin. Spliffa 01:36, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I like mine better: Canthan Ambassador. :) - B e X  [[Image:User BeXoR sig.gif|iawtc]] 01:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You have to use indentation to show how deep a particular response is during the conversation. We use indentation in most of our NPC dialogue and quest dialogue. So yea, Bex's version would be better (although I would've just dropped the symbols, but doesn't matter :P) -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 01:51, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that Bex's format is better. I will correct Darrin's page. Thanks for the quick response. Spliffa 02:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Profession vs service
I've noticed that for service NPCs, a profession has been entered on several occasions. In some cases this is fine because NPCs (like the guards in Kaineng Center) have a profession, but adding profession = x on a collector/merchant/etc page just seems redundant and erroneous. I know I'm not the only one removing this, but I have noticed that the guideline doesn't actually state that you should have either or, or both only in special circumstances, which I think it should, because all of the earlier edits and articles were made with this assumption. I don't think there are any special regulations about changing formatting guides, but I wanted to get some record of discussion before I attempt to fix up the guideline! - B e X   16:46, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the x icon more symbolises "Any" than "None" (or, I think it should!). So I also think NPCs that doesn't show a profession in game should have no profession listed, not even x. - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]] 16:51, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the x is more of a none thing, which has made me wonder why it's used at all (because in those situations, the data is really unknown, not none), and explains the recent creation of Image:Any-faded-large.png, which (hopefully cause it's taking bloody ages) eventually will replace the x and the negative connotations associated with it. -  B e X  [[Image:User BeXoR sig.gif|iawtc]] 16:55, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Profession in GW are Warrior, Ranger, etc... We can only know them it they are alies and it shos in their health bar of if they use skills. If we don't know them, we can't put it (although we now most NPCs are warriors or monks). This problem may be probably because the main example lacks the line 'service'. So people copy them without filling it. I added it some time ago, but someone reverted it, so I keep finding NPC articles missing the service, misusing the profession, etc... Someone adds it again, please. MithranArkanere 22:09, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Collector category
I suggest splitting Category:Prophecies collectors into regional categories for better navigation (and the same with Factions, Nightfall and EotN ones of course). I tried to find a discussion on this topic above, but I couldn't. - anja   12:26, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Subcategories can be added:
 * Prophecies
 * Maguuma.
 * See? Easy MithranArkanere 22:10, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, I know it's very easy, but it's in the formatting to not use subcats at the moment :) - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]] 23:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Eh... Guild_Wars_Wiki:Formatting/NPCs they say just the opposite... MithranArkanere 00:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I worded it wrong. The only example there is Category:Prophecies armorers, which implies there should be no more subcategories for that, and I read that as same applies to collectors. If you look in Category:Prophecies collectors, you easily see someone thought they all should go there also. I just wanted to get some comments before making it my way instead, with subcategories. - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]] 00:24, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, when there are more than 100..200 items in a category, subcategories start beng an option. MithranArkanere 14:47, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Given that the category is meant to be produced via autocategorisation, does that mean we know have to specify the region for NPCs in the infobox as well? I dunno, but personally, I think a List of Prophecies collectors (using page inclusion for regions) would be more useful (and have that category link to the page). -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 15:19, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


 * That would work too, but I didn't think it was meant to be autocat. And if it was, why isn't it autocat already? - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]] 15:23, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I wanted to actually, but I was waiting for the species issue to resolve so I could do autocat for all the stuff at once... but I waited and waited and waited... and I moved on :P -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 15:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah. :P Let's make a page like you mentioned some time soon and skip the subcats. - anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]] 16:27, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Headers on Prince Rurik/King Adelbern
Ok, I recently added Headers to Prince Rurik/King Adelbern. They can be found here and here. I propose that they be added to the top of each of the NPCs like King Adelbern, Prince Rurik, King Jalis Ironhammer, Devona, Cynn, Aidan, Mhenlo, etc. All the rest of the info is taking out of the Manual, so why not the headers which are also in the manual?-- §  Eloc   §  01:43, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I would much prefer this to be incorporated into the NPC infobox as an optional parameter, as the current header adds a lot of unnecessary whitespace. -- AT (talk | contribs) 01:47, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Just because the content or even the wording from the manual is utilized, does not mean everything has to be copied photographically. The infobox format that is already in place fits into the overall style of the wiki much better, and the headers you've added contain both a) redundant information, and b) information that doesn't really work in a multi-chapter wiki, where "the present day" isn't a fixed date, unlike in a given storyline. [[Image:User Aiiane-a.gif|Go to Aiiane's Talk page]] (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 01:49, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * My reasoning basically copied from what I have already said on your talk page: They have duplicate information like the name and the profession which is redundant. The age is correct at the time of prophecies, however the game is technically 5 years (I think) ahead of that now on the timeline so without a reference point they seem a little mis-leading? The rest could be contained within the articles themselves without the need for a second infobox, unless we see the need for another articles to have certain chunks like Born in, to include it in the existing infobox template. -- Lemming64 01:50, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Age at the time of any given campaign could fairly easily be converted to a "Year of Birth" parameter for the NPC infobox going by the timeline. Tanetris 01:55, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, so add in Born In, Nation and Age to the NPC Infobox as optional paramters please.-- §  Eloc   §  02:07, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think having "Born In" and "Nation" is redundant, to be honest. They could both be incorporated into the description, so I think Age is the only field that needs adding to the infobox. Even that is not really necessary, but I agree that it's always nice to have more information. -- AT (talk | contribs) 02:10, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict x2) I would prefer the age and birthplace things to be incorporated into the description, probably into the spoiler part of Prophecies, because these values only really concern the Prophecies campaign. Putting them into the infobox doesn't feel right, because if you'll meet these characters in GWEN, then you'd need to differentiate them. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 02:10, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * If it is just those 7 articles, then I would say playing with the infobox is unnecessary. If it was many more that we had that information on, then I could see the point. -- Lemming64 02:13, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I put the relevant information into the description (see Prince Rurik). Seems ok? -- AT (talk | contribs) 02:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * According to User:Eloc_Jcg, it appears that you also want to add the info boxes for several of the henchmen. Because those characters appear in multiple campaigns that occur in different years, the "Age" value would vary depending upon the location in which you're working with the character. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 02:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, why not have some parameters like prophecies age=, factions age=, Nightfall age=? -- §  Eloc   §  03:01, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * What about "age = X as of "? -- Gordon Ecker 04:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * How about simply going with something like Year of Birth, as Tanetris suggested? You could work it out from the timeline, and it'd scale with every campaign. It'd solve any location problems as well. -- AT (talk | contribs) 04:02, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure, I'd try adding that to the Infobox but I might screw it up ^^"-- §  Eloc   §  04:05, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Whilst the year or birth sounds useful can you tell me right now off the top of your head what year it is? In any of the guild wars calendars? thats right without looking at the timeline page. Well maybe you can, but I couldn't and I doubt 99% of the population of the wiki could either. That pretty much makes the year of birth thing useless without any context. -- Lemming64 12:36, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That information is never neccesary ingame. Trivia section is fit for that. MithranArkanere 15:22, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Without looking at the timeline, I can tell you that the current year is 107x AE by the Tyrian calendar and I have a rough idea what current is when I see dates under Canthan and Elonian, but that's not your point. We could link to the appropriate calendar (I would assume Tyrian-born NPCs would be given in year AE, Canthan-born in CC, and Elonian-born in DR)? Though I'm now noticing that the Canthan and Elonian calendars could use a reference to the current date to do that... Actually, to use your own reasoning against you, not many people really know the calendars off-hand, and what is this wiki for if not to inform? Those that don't care will ignore it, and those that do will get more used to the GW calendars. - Tanetris 16:32, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, Lemming, why not have something like Year Born = 1071 then have a link to the Timeline?-- §  Eloc   §  18:31, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I've had a try at this at User:AT/Sandbox. I've made it so that the calandar used is based on the campaign parameter. It seems to fit in ok - any glaring reasons why this can't be added to the infobox? -- AT (talk | contribs) 19:45, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, lets make it so that each infobox is depending on which campaign the NPC is in.-- §  Eloc   §  19:47, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * What you have done, AT, is you have reached into my brain and stolen out my thoughts. I'll note that I've added After the Exodus and Before the Exodus redirects to The Mouvelian Calendar, which I think would be more in keeping with using the Dynastic Reckoning redirect. While on the subject, perhaps a "Died" parameter for historical NPCs and possibly certain spoilery modern ones? Or would that be a bit much? - Tanetris 20:23, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No, more info we get one each article the better. It just puts us one step ahead of Guildwiki :P.-- §  Eloc   §  20:32, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Although I like the idea, I think it'd be hard to collate year of death. For instance, how long does it take to get from the start of Factions to Togo's death? Weeks? Months? A year? What about people like Shiro, who's technically died twice? Some NPCs would be easy to do, but for others it gets complicated quickly, whereas any information on birth dates is mostly indisputable. -- AT (talk | contribs) 20:34, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * My personal assumption is that each campaign takes place entirely within the year given, unless Anet decides to say otherwise. All the events in Post-Searing Prophecies and Factions took place within 1072AE/1582CC, all the events in Nightfall took place in 1275 DR, and all of the events of GW:EN will take place in 1076 AE, unless specifically said otherwise by Anet. As for Shiro, I take the first death as the death of record, in the sense that he lived from birth until 1382 CC. True, he came back (briefly) 200 years later, but that was a separate second life, which, given its brevity, the intervening time, and that it's woven entirely into the storyline anyway, wouldn't warrant superceding the first death for the infobox. Of course, these are my views and the community at large may strongly disagree. Alternatively, we could just list both. - Tanetris 21:10, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * If it gets to complicated, just leave it out. As for Shiro's 2nd death, you can't really die a 2nd time if you were never born a 2nd time.-- §  Eloc   §  21:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok you won me over, that test infobox looks good. Also when I read this What about people like Shiro, who's technically died twice? It reminded me of Buffy the vampire slayer lol. -- Lemming64 23:01, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, I think we should use AT's new NPC infoboxes. --trekie9001 23:11, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * And none of this would have happened without me...-- §  Eloc   §  23:31, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

ADDED: Ok, we all know give you this - So why not have it something like 3 birthdates in where one is Mouvelin, one Canthan Calendar and the other Dynastic Reckoning. So maybe something like 1071 AE 1581 CC 1271 DR-- §  Eloc   §  23:35, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think having 3 different dates is a bit eroneous, you don't give your birthday in the gregorian the chinese calendars etc. I like how they are related to the campaign they are from personally. And yes eloc this was started by you *pat on the back* ;) but I hope this demonstrates how discussion first can be very beneficial :) -- Lemming64 23:37, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep :P, quick question, do you think I've been behaving alot better now?-- §  Eloc   §  23:38, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Lol, I plead the fifth! -- Lemming64 23:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Fifth? Also, dibs on putting in the new infoboxes on the NPCs listed in my current wiki projects. I deserve em as they were there before this dicussion :P-- §  Eloc   §  23:42, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * pleading the fifth. And the rules of dibs/shotgun do not apply on this wiki, sorry. But I won't attempt to beat to it if that is any consolation. -- Lemming64 23:46, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Aww, someone is bound to probly beat me too it.-- §  Eloc   §  23:47, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflicts galore, stop yapping you two :p) In response to the "Died" stuff, I tried out this. "Year of Birth" obviously needs changing, but I couldn't think of a suitable term. I'm not sure whether I like it though, it may be a tad too much. -- AT (talk | contribs) 23:50, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I kind of agree, for a couple of reasons. It is a major spoiler to have if/when they died. Though that is not reason enough as we do include spoilers. But how many characters have actually died? I can't think of that many... -- Lemming64 23:52, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Pretty much everyone who was in the searing who didn't live died. Like NPCs who we never saw again after the searing could only be presumed that they died, right? For example, if we put Rurik, we already have the spoilar tag for him but his fiancee it doesn't matter much as that's not directly involved into the timeline.-- §  Eloc   §  23:53, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Lol: everyone who was in the searing who didn't live died ;) but yeh you are right, I forgot about all those searing folks like Sarah and Benton. However I wouldn't like to presume that those we don't know about, died then as they maybe in GW:EN. Also a lot of the merchants and crafters survived the searing so that doesn't really leave that many. However if you were to include the full section it would have to either be split into Born:, Died:, unless anyone can come up with an all encompassing word like existence? -- Lemming64 23:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well it's an optional parameter, even if it's not used alot, then it still is fine. As for if they do come back in GW:EN, then we just change it, simple as that. It could be calle Date of Birth/Date of Death? If not we could always go back to my header :P-- §  Eloc   §  00:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Updated sandbox, to use Born and Died. Better? -- AT (talk | contribs) 00:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Works for me, looks great, good job AT! -- Lemming64 00:18, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Excellent job indeed but could you make it Date of Birth and Date of Death?-- §  Eloc   §  00:24, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that unless we have explicit knowledge of the death we should refrain from adding it. Example: Before any details on GW:EN we would probably have said that Gwen died but now we now that Gwen survived and she will be a hero in GW:EN (did I mention, G-W-E-N :P ).  But seriously we could be wrong on a lot of these cases.  Someone mentioned Sarah and Benton, we could find them in some Charr prison camp. --trekie9001 00:36, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, if you look carefully, like all people died who were standing in Ascalon City. This is shown by those meteors or crystals dropping down and the bodys falling.-- §  Eloc   §  00:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Sarah and Benton are both ghosts in the underworld (as well as alive pre-searing), which fairly strongly implies that they are dead. Sarah even goes on to talk about her daughter Gwen, which pretty much confirms that she, is at least they same Sarah. -- Lemming64 00:40, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I'm not really buffed up on GW lore I guess but you at least get the idea of what I mean right? --trekie9001 00:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I still got a Tapestry Shred in my storage, maybe that'll be put to some use.-- §  Eloc   §  00:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict x 4. Let me get a word in!) In cases where we can't be sure of death / birth, it makes sense not to put any information in. The parameters are optional for a reason. I think it should be left a day or so before adding to the actual infobox though, to let anyone else weigh in. -- AT (talk | contribs) 00:44, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

(Reset indent) To get adequate community input for the change, this discussion should be listed at GWW:DISC. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 00:50, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Added. -- Lemming64 00:55, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, I can wait a day :P.-- §  Eloc   §  01:30, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * In response to "Who's died?" off the top of my head:
 * Sarah, Althea, Rurik, pretty much everyone in the Crystal Desert, Saidra, Markis, Brechnar Ironhammer, Shiro, Togo, Yijo, Vizu and the other spirits from Tahnakki Temple, Archemorus and Viktor, Kehanni, Varesh Ossa, Dunkoro's son, and various historical NPCs like the primeval kings, the previous emperors of Cantha, the previous kings of Ascalon, Turai Ossa... I'm sure there are more, and I don't know how many of these we have actual years of death for, but you get the idea. - Tanetris 02:18, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I am quite sure we can find where all the deaths when.-- §  Eloc   §  02:30, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This discussion has certainly moved forward quite a bit. Since some of you are intent upon getting it into the infobox (instead of just leaving it in the description), I'll throw in my thoughts about this. First, I oppose having year of death. For really minor NPCs like those who died in the Searing, fine, nothing really "spoilery". But for major NPCs like Shiro, Togo, and even Kormir (depending on your definition of death), it is a big deal to certain people to be spoiled like that. Because when you put a year of death there, then I know that he'll die during the campaign. Also, I'm with trekie here regarding assumed death. As with other articles, we do not post speculative information. So unless we can explicity confirm that a certain NPC really did die, do not explicitly and definitively mention that they died.


 * Secondly, regarding year of birth and age, I would like to pose a question of relativity. Should we really assume that the given age of an NPC is the starting year of a campaign? If yes, then I think having a year of birth entry is more than enough. The age is just too relative. When you say "Age", is that age referring to their age at the start of their respective campaigns? Or is it their current age with respect to the current campaign or expansion? If it's following the most current timeline, does that mean when GWEN is released, we have to manually update the "age" value of those NPCs where we know their age? What about those that died? Their age when the campaign started, or their age when they died? And special cases like Olias and Zenmai. Are their ages from the perspective of their originating campaign or are their ages from the perspective of the Nightfall campaign? -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 03:19, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * For Shiro, he's already dead, Kormir never died and Togo will have a spoiler tag at the top of him.-- §  Eloc   §  03:25, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * On date of death - I agree, no speculation - zero tollerance for it. In many cases, several may assume that an NPC's death occured at a certain date; but unless it's specifically stated in-game, or it's witnessed as part of the storyline progression (in which case, do we assume the death the be the same year in which the mission took place?), then the date should not be used.  No speculative or "best guess" methodology.
 * Also, keep in mind that we still have an issue with characters that appear in multiple campaigns - because the nations in each campaign have counted the years slightly differently, from varying "year 1" points. I'm against listing all three (currently known) calendar years just on the grounds of it being mostly redundant clutter.  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 03:37, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Aber, we've already thrown out age, with year of birth as a replacement. As my original suggestion and AT's sandbox setup go, the calendar used for birth and death would be the NPC's home continent. Mhenlo, as an example, appears in all three campaigns, but is there really any question his birth year should be referred to in AE? Similarly, Olias should be Mouvelian and Zenmai Canthan Calendar. I do share the reservations about spoiler deaths (namely Rurik and Togo. Shiro's death 200 years ago is no spoiler, and I wouldn't say Kormir "died"... And if we want to get even more tangental, Emperor Kisu threw out a spoiler about Kormir during his speech in the Dragon Festival anyway), but remember that there are plenty of NPCs, either referred to or that we only meet the ghosts of, that died long before the Prophecies campaign started. Also, agreed, no speculation. - Tanetris 03:48, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * "Aber, we've already thrown out age" When we do that?? And Barek, which characters appear in all and end up dieing?-- §  Eloc   §  05:03, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Currently, I'm favoring having year of birth in, with the calandar based on campaign, but leaving deaths out, for the reasons Aberrant noted. I also agree with Barek that there should be 0 speculation; year of birth should only be used when we know it for sure. As for age, year of birth is sufficient. If anyone's bothered about how old King Adelbern is, they can work it out. -- AT (talk | contribs) 13:51, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Eloc, sorry - I wasn't clear enough in my post. My first paragraph was specific to year of death - the second paragraph was actually relevant to both birth and death (although, mostly birth).  But, from other posts, that issue is now addressed. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Eloc, Barek didn't say that certain characters appeared in all campaigns and they died. He was talking about certain characters that appear in multiple campaigns that would feel like they have conflicting timelines depending on which campaign's perspective you're looking it at. Togo's death, true, there's a big spoiler at the top. But what about the other NPCs? Plan on putting spoiler tags everywhere just because someone added a year of death? Shiro died 200 years ago. But you're going to see alot of ppl try to put in another date because he also died at the end of the Factions campaign. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 13:56, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't read all of this, just want to say that I prefer just stating year of birth. The years are passing with each campaign/expansion, so we would need to change age all the time. Which campaign/expansion should we prioritize? :P Also, death can be a spoiler, so I'd prefer to keep that out of the infobox aand maybe have it somewhere in the article instead. -  anja  [[Image:User Anja Astor sig icon.png|talk]] 14:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Currently, the test infobox shows the calandar based on the first campaign listed. So, for example, Olias has Nightfall then Prophecies, so his year of birth would be listed in DR only. -- AT (talk | contribs) 14:05, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


 * After thinking about this more, I have no objections to year of birth - but I also agree with others above to leave out year of death ... if wanted, it can be worked into a trivia or note entry with a spoiler tag on it. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree we should have year of birth and year of death if it is readily available for proof. As for characters that appear in all 3 campaigns so far, such as Aidan, Cynn, Devona, Mhenlo, Eve, etc...just put them into the campaign in which they first appeared in, which in the case of the ones I just listed off, Prophecies which means they'd be using the Mouvelin Calendar.-- §  Eloc   §  00:34, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

NPC infobox change proposal
I have added a proposal to add army, family and world parameters to Template:NPC infobox, and deprecate the species and campaign parameters at Template talk:NPC infobox. -- Gordon Ecker 03:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Skill trainer skill list style
I've noticed three different styles for the existing skill lists from Skill trainers. The nice one, The Guild Wiki style and the uninspired one. Is there any consensus found on which style we should use? I've found a discussion about this here but it's not clear on which we should use now. poke | talk 15:18, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd go with the nice one. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 16:25, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I started a layout overview here. At the moment I'm waiting for a comment on adding a style to common.css to make the use of the design more easier. If accepted I would start a complete restyle of all Skill trainer and Hero skill trainer pages. poke | talk 16:37, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd go for making the nice one into a template... and add it to the formatting. MithranArkanere 20:16, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem with a template is that some skill trainers have very much skills (50 or more) and you can't do a template with that much parameters.. At least not a high-performance one.. poke | talk 20:26, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ahem, after a parameter, you just need to enter wikicode, like this:
 * | warrior= *
 * | ranger= *
 * | monk= *
 * Even the line breaks will be included in the parameter. So you only need to add the space to put the skill icons.
 * So it's only four layouts: Core(And prophecies), Factions, Nightfall, and All (For Hero skill trainers, Alliegance rewards and GW:EN)
 * It can be made so it dectects the layout depending on if you add anything to the Assassin, Ritualist, Dervish and PAragon professions. MithranArkanere 20:49, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this is possible.. But it implies that the style will be implemeted. poke | talk 20:58, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Eh... That's the point, we want the same style in all skill trainer, hero skill trainer and alliegance reward NPCs. MithranArkanere 21:05, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * As long as the template isn't confusing to use and understand, implementing the style and creating the template for it is fine. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 00:45, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, the style is implemented and it works! I will create a template soon. poke | talk 11:21, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, all Skill trainers were updated. But what shall we do with the /Skills subpages and with the campaign lists? Can DPL do this? (I will try ^^) poke | talk 16:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think DPL can do this unless you add a list of trainers to each skill's infobox I think. How about keeping the skills offered on a subpage and then just including those subpages into the list page? (as was previously done)? -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 01:58, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That would be more proper, and would allow multiple references (complete list, prophecies only, Vabbi only, etc...). MithranArkanere 02:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * At the moment I'm working on a list, generated by DPL, here.. For comparison this is the actual existing page: List of Prophecies skill trainers. poke | talk 12:07, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, the style is implemented and it works! I will create a template soon. poke | talk 11:21, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, all Skill trainers were updated. But what shall we do with the /Skills subpages and with the campaign lists? Can DPL do this? (I will try ^^) poke | talk 16:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think DPL can do this unless you add a list of trainers to each skill's infobox I think. How about keeping the skills offered on a subpage and then just including those subpages into the list page? (as was previously done)? -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 01:58, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That would be more proper, and would allow multiple references (complete list, prophecies only, Vabbi only, etc...). MithranArkanere 02:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * At the moment I'm working on a list, generated by DPL, here.. For comparison this is the actual existing page: List of Prophecies skill trainers. poke | talk 12:07, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Buffs
How should we handle NPC buffs and debuffs, such as the ones mentioned [|here], the burning effect caused by some Titans, natural resistance and the Guild Lords' Amulet of Protection buff? I'd prefer a section immediately after the Skills section, but it's not a strong preference. -- Gordon Ecker 07:13, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Notes section is the place for that, there we can say if they are fleshy, weaknesses and extra armor versus damage types, behavior, unique features, etc... --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:MithranArkanere.
 * Either notes or as part of the description of the creature. -- ab.er. rant [[Image:User Ab.er.rant Sig.png|sig]] 08:59, 3 August 2007 (UTC)