User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Underpowered Skills/Ritualist/Archive 1

With the recent game update wanderlust, an elite skill, is nearly identical to dissonance in most aspects. Both cause exhaustion, both cost the same, cast the same, and recharge the same. Dissonance interupts, Wanderlust Knocksdown. Synopsis: Wanderlust's main advantage, it lasts longer. But this does not make much difference as both spirits are high priorities. Priorities in that you get out of range quickly/avoid them. Or, attack them like crazy. Under attack they both last about the same amount of time. Just some thoughts. Maybe one is to powerful, or the other not powerful enough. --Kyle van der Meer 02:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Wanderlust also loses Health whenever it knows someone down. At 16 Communing and 13 Spawning Power, the spirit can only make 8 knockdowns (ignoring the effects of damage and other skills). -- Gordon Ecker 03:41, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yup, Wanderlust will in most cases last shorter than Dissonance. Servant of Kali 09:37, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Silly of me, forgot that Wanderlust losses health:P --Kyle van der Meer 14:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

It is so ineffectual that I really wonder why this skill was ever put into the game. Can you explain me what the initial thought was behind this skill? -- (CoRrRan / talk) 19:52, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Mainly something to deal with extremely degenerate spikes, I think it's insanely over costed, but that is mainly because we are scared of the effect it's extremely powerful, but its a neat way to deal with a bunch of one spell, probably work really good vs Rit spike in HA. ~Izzy @-&#39;
 * Or possibly SF ^^ (if it's still used....not sure...) Vengeance Signet 01:59, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you have information on skill usages throughout the game? And for specific PvP arena's? Would be interesting to see, whether there are teams in HA that actually think about using this skill against Rit spike. The biggest trouble with it, is that the spike will still occur (at least once). Good spike teams will get the kill, bad spike teams might get the kill (depends on the monks on the other team of course), and only then are the skills disabled for a number of extra seconds.
 * And besides Rit spike, how many spike builds are there in the meta that would be seriously hurt by this skill? Obs flame spike, FC air, FoC is hardly seen anymore AFAIK. I'd say this skill has to go in the bucket of skills labeled "needs serious rework". :) -- [[Image:User Corrran sig.png|CoRrRan]] (CoRrRan / talk) 11:07, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This would be a neat skill to buff just because it would be a tool you could use to deal with those builds, I wonder if it's even viable at 5e though. ~Izzy @-&#39; 20:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The energy for the effect is understandable. Besides there are ways (fiddly but doable) to get around the energy. There are some uses for this. Even if they are quite peculiar (just like the class. Love these guys ;) ). For instance if your facing a spike or a spell heavy offense team, you could load a few team-mates with wep spells for disguise then prot one guy (war) with this. This guy then over-extends on purpose like he's going for Splinter or something. I imagine you can guess where I'm going... Its probably still too niche a usage but it might be interesting to try. However a few things need to happen for even this to become viable... It's duration and recharge are alarmingly bad. 30 seconds is too much for such a niche effect. I'd wager 15 would be closer to well balanced. It's duration is also pretty bad. 10 seconds at full-spec will not be enough for any black-ops style plays. 15 would be better here (cost controls this so it's not like people will be spamming this thing). In spite of this though the main problem with it is that it's in such a bad line. Communing really isn't that good. The only 'good' reason to spec in the line is Weapon of Quickening, also perhaps Vital Weapon and Guided Weapon. Spirit-spam is just a very different mentality to what skills like this want to do (which thankfully you mostly killed off anyways :P)... Fro 21:32, 17 July 2007
 * This wouldn't be bad at a lower cost. It's not like it only works against caster spikes. How about Diversion, Blinding Surge? Come on, this skill has an excellent effect. Just a horrible recharge and energy cost... Oh, and it's an elite Ritualist skill. --TimeToGetIntense 00:39, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It's an elite COMMUNING Ritualist skill, and if there's one line that's not too interesting these days out of gimmick builds ala Rt spike it's Communing. But yes, if the cost/recharge were good it'd be great. Personally i'd lower the duration a lot and then lower cost/recharge. Do something like an ally-targetted 'Diversion'. 10/.25/12(15), for 6 seconds any spell cast on target ally are disabled for an additional 5..13s on all foes. Then it actually becomes interesting even in non-gimmick, and with Vital Weapon to keep weapon spells on everyone, it becomes much more problematic for the other teams to guess who they can use their spells on. It would actually give an interesting option to Communing Rt that could use bars like Vital Weapon, Xinrae's Weapon, Pain, Bloodsong, Essence Strike, Wielder's Strike, Splinter Weapon, Flesh/Rez. A bar like that would be quite interesting in a balanced setup with spirits for pressure, good spike assist, defense support with Vital / Xinrae's, VoD/pressure support with Splinter, etc. I'd love to see a bar like that being viable in a balanced build because it has a lot of different tools for different purposes, but Xinrae's stats need to be brought in line so that it doesn't require 3 emanagement skills to run it with a recharge that makes it only good against big gimmicks. With 10/.25/12, it'd be actually viable against any build, but devastating to gimmicks. Could do a LOT to help settle HA balance problems with gimmicks, seriously. It wouldn't affect all of them, but things like SF spike, Rt spike, etc. might be gone pretty fast if you can include an interesting Communing Rt with Xinrae's in a balanced setup. Or use a Me/Rt with Xinrae's as elite. Patccmoi 14:43, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I really like that suggestion. The nice thing is since you've created a reason to run Communing, meaning a few of the really interesting things could come out of hiding. Namely Guided Weapon. It's still a 2 second cast, but I think that's unavoidable when you take into account what it grants. Another thing, instead of Splinter, I'd much prefer to see Warmonger's Weapon on that bar. Especially considering how the VoD benefit of Splinter (which only helps out at one point in the match, albeit being the make or break skill) may in fact go away soon and how attractive Warmonger's can be overall. Guided/Warmonger's on a Melandru/Crip Slash would be very interesting to see. Fro 20:18, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I like Patccmoi's suggestion but maybe make the disable duration a bit longer. Afterall, Diversion is 50~60 seconds and D-Shot is 20 seconds and while it's easy to hide Xinrae's, it's elite and anything less than a 20 second disable is a little weak imo. --TimeToGetIntense 01:21, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Making it a general utility like targeted allied diversion has alot of other implications than just anti-spike, it also works as an anti-hex for monks/frontline, etc. Right now it acts as anti-spike, the suggestions here would make it acting as a fire-and-forget hexbreaker type of thing for 6 seconds type of function, so maybe a shorter disable duration would be more appropriate. Also if you are going that route it's better to make it diversion vs the next X number of offensive spells. I'd say keep it in spirit of an anti-spike with some auxilary anti-hex function, something like this 5/0.25/5 for 2 seconds, the next 1..5 offensive spells cast on target ally are disabled for 7..14 seconds for all opposing party members. This makes it more of "active" spike defense with some anti-hex utility in case you run into non-gimmick teams. Phoenixtech 14:07, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Bringing the maximum disable time down a touch would be fair. However I really don't think this skill with the changes suggested would be too strong. Simple truth is the spell itself still gets off. It just becomes disabled for allies and for a bit longer on the initial caster. I can see this only being a major problem for spike and spam builds. Both of which pretty much deserve a hit.
 * You can't really 'fire and forget' this thing. 6 seconds is not a long time. The 12 second recharge could become 15, but it doesn't really achieve anything since I believe your reasoning doesn't hold. Your version lasts for 2 seconds. That is pointless. The reason this spell has value is 'because' it's anti-offense spell not just anti-spike.
 * Monks are already pretty good at catching most reasonable spell spikes, and the ritualist doesn't need another role better handled by another class. You say right now it act's as anti-spike, when in truth, right now it does nothing. It's far too expensive to use... Fro 13:09, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Making it 10-15 energy with a 15 second recharge would simply make it a great and fun skill that kicks degenerate builds right in the balls. The cost of the Elite slot, communing investment, and lack of use of other weapons spells give it enough cost. Remember that it only applies to same-skill spell spikes to be extremely potent, but it's plenty useful even in balanced or pressure against spammy or quick-ish recharge hexes/spells.--Skye Marin 22:03, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't care what you do with the skill just make it playable and make it do it's job. Xinrae skills were one of the most interesting in the game, by description, and one of the worse when it comes to usability. Skills like these should promote variation, ie dont bring 6 Rt channelers together. There's nothing wrong if the skill does it's job. And come on, the guy has a weapon icon on him, so you need to mask that, which requires additional effort. Servant of Kali 13:38, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

This skill is the only way, you could ever nerf spikes like Rt or blood, without destroying the class itself. I think it would be fine if you redesign this as an anti-spike skill only! That means, the disable time can be cut down to 0-5sec, way enough to wreck havoc on any spike, but thus decrescing values of the skill to 10/0.25/15. Monks do have fine anti-spike skills but they are easily diverted. If the midline now gets something as useful, this might split things up a bit. --Ineluki 13:53, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Just wanted to note, I consider this skill decent now. Nowehere near as terrible as it was before anyway. Akirai Annuvil 11:54, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Decent? It's still terrible and no one will use it. If no one uses the skill I don't see how that can be called decent. Servant of Kali 16:22, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The effect is retarded and will never see use. Changing the recharge and energy cost will not help. --Deathwing 16:24, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well what do you expect, they made an elite skill worse than a non elite skill (Diversion). Why would anyone use this skill is beyond me. 15 sec disable? A lol! Servant of Kali 00:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * nah, i think it was thought to counter sf spikes in ha. would really work with 1/4. but now with exhaustion it's dumped. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 00:08, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It might work against Kormab, Burning Heart in HM. Other than that I can't think of any more uses. --Deathwing 03:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Even if they made this skill free with no cast time i still dont think it would see any use, the effect requires you or target ally to put yourself in harms way, all for a 10 second disable nothx
 * Oh well, I don't think the exhaustion would be the best choice here :| it sure is affordable more ofen. 15 sec (additional) disable for skills that recharge in 0-10 seconds is something I find ok as an effect. Different matter is how many teams run such builds, and that's what makes the skill pretty limited. Something that requires prediction and some player skill to use isn't always underpowered :p - IH 08:59, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Alot of people seems to be missing the part where this disables multiple people's spells. You don't use this to disable a skill on one person, you use this to disable multiple copies of a skill against a spike team. Let's say you have 8 ritualists casting a spell (let's say Spirit Burn) on someone with Xinrae's Weapon, the first spell would hit, but all the rest would be disabled, thus preventing the spike. This skill should be pretty useless against a balanced reasonable team, but it would be very powerful vs a gimmick 6-8 person spike team. - HeWhoIsPale 14:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * to the anon who posted this: it's inferior to xinrae's weap but with a fair energy cost. i don't think this is underpowered. there's just no good use for it. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 22:24, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You don't think this is underpowered? The fact that no one uses it, and the fact that even if spike was against me and I knew it, I still wouldn't bring this skill? What exactly is your definition of underpowered? Look at Attacker's Insight, according to you it's not underpowered, it just doesn't have use eh? Well not having use is underpowered by definition. In fact, even if this skill had 2x better stats (all of them) I still wouldn't use it. Servant of Kali 13:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Theres also no way to buff it that would make it have a use. Maybe if the spells failed? Otherwise the only thing I can see it used for is to counter Flare spam. --Deathwing 00:18, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's better than Xinrae's Weapon, imo, except that you can't target it. Longer duration and disable. - IH 07:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The fact that you can't target it makes it FAR worse than Xinrae's Weapon, no matter the rest. I mean, think about it, you're facing a spike team (only real build this has a point against), the spike team sees Defiant being cast (they're targetting you after all!), they cancel the spike and won't spike that guy again or will wait during its recharge. Ok, great, you accomplished that they won't spike this guy. Now they'll just spike everyone else until he's the one guy left and then they'll wait on recharge. And if you don't face a spike team, well too bad huh? This is a real waste of an elite, at least in PvP (maybe it has some niche use in some particular region somewhere in PvE, but i doubt that's enough to justify an elite). I can't see any way to really save it without a total rework. The concept of the skill doesn't fit as self-defense. At all. This is why they added Xinrae's Weapon in NF... except they screwed it up too because they feared it was too powerful. If they fear that the concept is too powerful, they should scrap it altogether, not make 2 elites that are absolutely worthless because they would be too strong if they were worth anything. Patccmoi 15:10, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know why they think the effect is too strong though. Even with 5/1/5 on this, it probably still wouldn't see much use. It is a self defense elite skill that fails at defending you. Just holding these ashes isn't worth the energy loss from not having a staff. --Deathwing 15:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * the fact that there's no good use for this makes it unused. even if you make it an "item signet", nobody will use it. waste of elite. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 16:55, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * How about, "When you drop these ashes, all your other skills are recharged"? Or, "When you drop these ashes, nearby enemies take 20 damage per recharging skill"? Ok, that's a bit lame since the Ritualista already have way too many damage dealing skills, but the idea is the sinergy there. Some secondary effect linked to when you drop the ashes could be added (the opposite to what was done in order to help Destructive was Glaive). Erasculio 17:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Or just change it completely. The game doesn't need 2 of these skills with one being rather rubbish. Remember Protective Was Kaolai? Izzy turned a worthless skill into great one by a complete make over (well done there actually. Great change). The same thing needs to happen here, especially since it's elite... Fro 19:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * i'd be quite fine with "all your skills are recharged" once dropped. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 19:49, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The recharge all your skills is a good option, but it's also somewhat 'risky' to give that since it's not in a primary attribute and all classes could use it (unlike Oath Shot). Recharging all your skills is extremely powerful, especially when you can combine it with stuff like Glyph of Sacrifice, so it might lead to unforeseen combos later on. You could also give it a more offensive, 'safer' ability on drop that's related to its effect. Something like 'All foes in the area take x damage for each skill recharging' or 'all skills recharging take 1..5 more seconds to recharge'. So if they use skills on you that are disabled (or even if they don't and just used them on something else), you punish them for it when you drop it. And if the effect on drop is good enough, it can become the main point of the skill (can easily imagine combining it with Power Block Mesmer for example) while the self-defense becomes a secondary use Patccmoi 14:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * cool idea. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:User Y0_ich_halt_sig.jpg|16px]] 18:15, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If it's possible to make this mechanic work it would be even better: "When you drop her ashes, all skills disabled by this skill take twice as long to recharge."  [[Image:User GD Defender sig.png]]| GD Defender  /  contribs 18:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)