ArenaNet talk:Portal

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[edit] There we are!

Ok, let's discuss! What contents do we want to have here? I think the obvious talk pages from Gaile's subpages (suggestions etc) can be moved to this namespace, same with Izzy's skill discussions.. What about things like Game updates and GuildWars.com news? poke | talk 13:14, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Also Developer updates, localization issues and bug reports. They are scattered all over the place now, so it would be nice to have them collected here. But it's up to Anet also, we could just link them from here. - anja talk 13:15, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I think the best would be to ask the page-owners to take part in this discussion. poke | talk 13:19, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
In genral I think it would be good if we tried to keep the naming simple, and not build trees. So you'd find things where you'd expect them. Example, the feedback page for GW2 would be at ArenaNet:Guild Wars 2 Backsword 13:41, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
BTW, this talk namespace has a cap T. Backsword 13:42, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

A link to this page will be put into the main page, won't it? —ZerphatalkThe Improver 14:15, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I added a link to the edit copy in what looks to be the best location seeing as it's an ArenaNet page. --Kakarot Talk 14:21, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pages

I disagree with Backsword on this one because I think the pages need some organisation -- it's easiest to do that by having them as subpages for a main "Suggestions" or "Bug report" page. It would also mean that you could easily navigate your way -- if you wanted to give some suggestions, you would go to ArenaNet:Suggestions, and oh look, I can give Guild Wars or Guild Wars 2 suggestions whereas I thought only Guild Wars suggestions were available, so I'll give stuff for both. Yay.

Here's a list of some of the existing ArenaNet pages, assuming the respective users agree to them being moved.

Feedback from players
ArenaNet content

Of course, we wouldn't display the links like that on the Portal page. I might be missing some pages, so feel free to add them in. --Pling! \ Brains12 \ Talk 14:55, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

This looks good. I like the organization of things in this table. --TalkPeople of Antioch 15:20, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually I would rather prefer a title, to say what the pages are about.. So:
That would be my idea. poke | talk 15:53, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I prefer the Brains12's suggestion. I like sub-pages as a way of organizing things, since many of these pages are related. Image:User_Scion_Of_Erixalimar_SigIcon.png ~Scion~ (talk | contribs) 17:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
But please keep in mind that we have a complete namespace open, so there is no need to cascade all pages.. And also note that we still have the ability to keep pages in categories, otherwise we could also use Profession/Elementalist instead of Elementalist as an article name etc. poke | talk 17:09, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
The reason I put them cascaded is because people may not look for specific pages for each category (in the sense of ArenaNet:Bug reports or something, not wiki categories). Someone looking for suggestions might not go straight towards the specific suggestions page, but just to see what suggestions there are -- by going to the home ArenaNet:Suggestions page, one could find lots of subjects to suggest - Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2 or the Website. That's why the localisation pages are all cascaded, because it organises them through their subject. Also, for subpages, you have the link at the top that can let you go back a subpage -- if I'm looking at Guild Wars 2 suggestions, I could go straight back to the Suggestions homepage with a simple click of a link that stays in the same place for every subpage, instead of having to back a few pages into the portal. The namespace was created for ease of use and organisation of ArenaNet content and feedback, and I think this is the best and easiest way to do that. --Pling! \ Brains12 \ Talk 17:24, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
As for the pages like ArenaNet:Suggestions we can always use that as some kind of main site to lik to the pages.. But I think ArenaNet:Text bugs for example is easier to recognize than ArenaNet:Bug reports/Text; or ArenaNet:Localization bugs/German is easier than ArenaNet:Bug reports/Localization/German. And apart from that it fits more in the style we name our pages currently. poke | talk 17:29, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I 'd prefer to see a bit of both, while I do like Brains suggestion a bit more, Poke does have a point with having an ArenaNet:Localization bugs section rather than ArenaNet:Bug reports/Localization. --Kakarot Talk 17:34, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Agreed as per Kakarot. --TalkPeople of Antioch 17:46, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Both versions have their merits, and I wouldn't oppose any of them. I would prefer "logical" names as in Localization bugs (even German localization bugs?) and Guild Wars suggestions with a nav or backlink to the Bug report/Suggestions main page. This looks nicer and I also think it's easier to use than the backlinks created when we use subpages.
I think the skill subpage should be named Skill feedback, we are not listing the actual skill details in this namespace (which I thought was the original suggestion until I edited the page and saw the link :P). This is a place where I think subpages makes sense, there is simpl so many pages that "logical" names would be unwieldy. - anja talk 17:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I seriously do not see how multiple portals will make things easier. Multiple secgtions on this one requires a slight eye movement, so I don't see the advanatage. Backsword 18:02, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
We don't need a namespace when we only have 3 "main" pages which contain all pages as subpages.. Then we also can forget about this.
I fully agree with Anja, and I think navbars on bug report issues, or generally on those pages which Pling wanted to put into one tree, is fine. poke | talk 18:32, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I would be willing to compromise with that. --Pling! \ Brains12 \ Talk 18:37, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Journal Pages

Hopefully this is now the correct place for this. Anyway, I noticed that quite a few devs are keeping journals on the GWW, but they are in their User pages. Could there be a link on the front page to a Journals page, with links to the Journals? I find that there is good news in the Journals, and it is probably as beneficial as Gaile Talk and stuff was. Thanks for considering. --Ravious 18:41, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I think we should provide those links here on the Arenanet Portal page; also once we get the content sorted out I think we should but this in the navbar as well. --Shadowphoenix Please, talk to me; I'm so lonley ;-; 18:44, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree, links on the ArenaNet:Portal page would make sense. One thing that needs to be decided; something that maybe only those ArenaNet staff that have one of these should decide; is whether or not those should still be kept in the respective users userspace or whether they should also be moved into the ArenaNet namespace, maybe in a new section like ArenaNet:Developer journals/<Name>. --Kakarot Talk 19:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Well I've seen no comments from the users you seemed to be addressing, so either they have "no comment" or aren't paying any attention to this page (probably). Either way, I don't think it is appropriate to link to a User's subpage. Also, although I haven't been following this ArenaNet portal discussion for long, what I have understood so far is that a major point of it was to stop linking to individual user pages for many things that currently link there. In other words (all be it...my words), when this portal is set up this will be for ArenaNet directed and related things that have previously often been on individual user pages for want of a better place, and the individual user pages can become just that...user pages. Oh, and I'm sure if they want to create a page on here that is a journal, they can; and unlike most other users, theirs' will be read by many. -- Inspired to ____ 04:21, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Journals belong in User space unless the person in question decides (of their own will) to make them "official" (and would most likely need to consult with others beyond themselves in ArenaNet before doing so). Not something that should be on this portal page. The entire point of this namespace is to let dev's user pages be just that - user pages. The namespace is for the "official" stuff. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 05:02, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't see how more "official" you could get than an ArenaNet employee talking about ArenaNet happenings on an ArenaNet owned webspace meant for public consumption. Regardless, I think such a page should exist somewhere. I am just not sure where... IMHO, I would prefer it be with other GW news for simplicity sake. --Ravious 16:33, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
A journal is a personal thing. Sure, it may include information related to ArenaNet happenings, but they are simply user logs maintained by the respective users. As Aiiane says, their own user pages should be kept to their own userspace. --Pling! \ Brains12 \ Talk 16:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
"Official" is "we will release ______ on ______". Journals are more like "I was working on _____, and it might be ready by ______, but that's just my personal guess." There is a huge difference between what is company-approved for release, and what are personal insights. Typically, it's the difference between a company standing behind "promises", and an individual. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 17:14, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[reset indent] I agree the journal is a personal thing, but they say many relelvant and interesting things directly pertinent to the game. They usually don't use it for "I ate strawberries today." Also, please explain the difference between this and Gaile Chats? Because I see plenty of similarities between the content of Gaile Chats and the content in the GWW dev journals. Well you guys decide, but I think you are trying to make the personal pages a little too black and white, when clearly devs use it for "official" business. --Ravious 18:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Gaile was an official community rep, and the things she said during her visits were understood to be coming from the company as a whole. No one is saying a dev couldn't ask for their journal page to be added here, but at the same time we shouldn't assume that it should be. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 20:22, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm hesitant about this idea of putting ArenaNet user pages in the ArenaNet name space. I think that if wiki visitors are interested in finding out more about an ArenaNet staff member, they can do a search, find the wiki article about them, and click through to the user page. Yes, it does take more effort, but as Aiiane noted, not all ArenaNet staff use their Journals as platforms for official announcements. I've been using mine to solicit specific suggestions and feedback on an informal basis, rather than as an information channel. Other ArenaNet staff seem to use theirs to give updates on what they are working on. So I don't see that their Journals would necessarily be useful to be put in an ArenaNet namespace/portal here on the wiki. --Regina Buenaobra Image:User Regina Buenaobra sig.png 21:28, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Navigation

Could we get this placed on the navigation box to the left below Community portal? — ク Eloc 貢 21:10, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

When we have content to show, maybe. poke | talk 21:31, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Gah, not another link to move the Recent Changes link down! --Pling! \ Brains12 \ Talk 23:07, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps the portal could be an adaptation of the current GW news page - shorter summaries, fewer inclusions and more linkage to other Anet content. Perhaps it could then replace that linky on the Nav bar? --Aspectacle 23:44, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I wouldn't mind that, although I don't think the Portal should have any inclusions, unless they can be put in without being too crammed or distracting. It's probably better to just link it. --Pling! \ Brains12 \ Talk 14:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
The inclusions are a pain to format, you are right. Especially as the news page can get very big if there are big updates (like at the moment). I think the only way you could include a large update tidily on this portal page is to perhaps do some editorializing and have summaries of the content of the update notes. However, when it comes to updates I'm not sure that having an opinion in such a prominent place is a great idea. I do like the news summary page (despite its size) and, inclusions or not, wonder if this portal overrides its function a little. --Aspectacle 09:41, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] ...Suggestions

Maybe this is not the best place for this, but the best time to discuss this is with move, and there is no other place.
What can we do to better manage the suggestion pages?

While I realize that the most significant reason to even have them is so people have a place to rant, or to present their ideas for things that have long been decided or over which they have no control, I do believe they are important. Unfortunately, they quickly evolve into an unmanageable mess. They also often become too large and parts just end up getting shoved into archives and effectively lost. Which would be okay given my above on their reason, except then someone just suggests something similar and the process is repeated. Also, the current situation doesn't do much to allow for evolution of suggestions over time and consensus if possible on those suggestions.
So, first, does anyone else think this should be addressed and that now is a good time? And if so, does anyone have any ideas on how to go about this?
Thanks for you thoughts. -- Inspired to ____ 23:09, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
One of the reasons this namespace was created was so that pages like the game suggestions or skill update suggestions could be kept in their own section rather than in the current respective users userspace, I say current since there is no way to guarantee that that person will always be the best person to go to; this has recently happened regarding Gaile and game suggestions. In the above "Pages" section there has already been two possible suggestions on how to organize the ArenaNet Portal including a section or subpage just for GW/GW2 suggestions. --Kakarot Talk 23:51, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
There have been a few ideas to split each suggestions page into categorised subpages - i.e. armour suggestions, weapons suggestions, etc. It would probably be best if we do something like that now that we have a large move on our hands. However, I'm not too sure about whether we should just start it from a certain point and leave the archives as they are, or reorganise the whole of the mess.--Pling! \ Brains12 \ Talk 23:56, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm very much for putting down a framework of categorised suggestion pages, allowing things to start from scratch and then if someone is compelled transferring the existing suggestions from the archives. I think that any transfer may need editing of suggestions because some of the existing suggestions have several pretty unrelated ideas together. So there is a suggestion for pets alongside one for weapons with another for gameplay or hairstyles. Also as Inspired suggests, the same idea has been made several times over - which version from the archive is the best? I have ideas for format too ^_^ - mostly similar in structure to Izzy's skill feedback pages. --Aspectacle 09:41, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
That was the only thing I've been able to come up with except something a lot more formal that seems rather scary. Unfortunately, the skill pages haven't been in that format for all that long, and some of them seem to be already heading toward becoming unmanageable. And it looks even worse when one considers that those have a defined set of titles that exit in the skills, I'm having difficulty seeing how it would work if every user was assigned the task of choosing an already existing category for a page or creating a new one. Just compare it to how this works with headings on talk pages...the average user cannot even stay within an existing heading for a simple goodbye or welcome wish (referring to Gaile's and Regina's recent pages). -- Inspired to ____ 03:56, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
So, I've added a few pages and such around my idea for layout for the suggestion section. See here: ArenaNet:Guild Wars 2 suggestions. I haven't spent much time thinking about the categories - perhaps these categories should be more limited in number and evolve as more categories become evident with the types of suggestions arising. I've added a few pages to give an idea for the subpage layout with suggestions I know have been made. I'd pull something out of the current GW2 Suggestions but I can't get to it because it's too big. :) Ideally the lead page for the suggestion would be like a typical wiki page where anyone could jump in and flesh out the idea or to add variations or more positives or negatives that sort of thing. Feel free to edit - 'tis a wiki after all. --Aspectacle 03:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I like where you're going with this. Somehow, it will have to be easy for noneditors to add new pages like on the current skill suggestions. I wonder if a detailed template for each suggestion would work good or if that would just encourage people to make a new page. Anyway, on the Tengu, I don't see lack of gender differentiation as a negative since even in GW it makes no functional difference anyway . The negitive I see is that they don't fly, but ANet could work on that (maybe they evolve flight in the next 200 years). Oops, wrong place for this, but I didn't want to add a talk page yet. Anyway, I already have a character name: "Inspired To Fly". -- Inspired to ____ 04:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, looking at the code for the createbox which is used for the skill suggestions I think that it could be used here. The main disadvantage of that box is that I don't think it adds the idea to the list of ideas on the subpage however I'm not sure that is something which is easy to do, or even possible (or they'd have done it on the skill createbox right?) I might prod a few people who've shown interest in trying to get Gaile to pioneer a new filing system for her suggestions and a few who seem to be around the suggestions pages a bit and see if they've got any ideas around this layout or another. After that I'll think about adding niceties. Tengu; I was making stuff up for those pages. I don't have any particular opinion about Tengu gender - but I do agree that flying would be awesome. :) --Aspectacle 09:26, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Agreed category's i think would be the best way to go about the suggestion pages, i say just archive everything now and then put up the new pages. what should the category's be, i think is the issue that is stopping this from happening. 75.165.113.67 02:56, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi All, I was one of those [people that discussed the idea of organizing the GW2 suggestion page with Gaile a while back, and Aspectacle was nice enough to invite me to this discussion which I think is really awesome and I'm really excited about it. I don't have a lot of time right now because I'm on vacation in Paris, so I'll stick to the bare essentials and maybe I cab get in more depth on this in a week or so.

Anyway, from the outset I think what we really need with the suggestion pages is indeed some way of categorizing them. However, I noticed, if I'm reading this right, from the current thinking that the idea is to create a page for an idea and let editors evolve the idea by contributing conllaberatively. That sounds wonderful, but to be honest (and perhaps a little cynical), everyone thinks their idea is original, and the majority of people probably will not navigate through what will eventually become a mountain of ideas to make sure they are, in fact, not thinking of something new. I see people just creating a new idea almost no matter what. Therefore, I think if we can narrow the categories as much as bareable, and then adding links for discussions of frequently suggested ideas, this will better allow people to rant and rave as they please and go one believing they are the very first to suggest anything like this.

I don't have the time to code in a good looking suggestion right now, but I guess what I'm thinking is make the categories you have now a bit more like the existing suggestion pages, where people just plug in their ideas with a subtitle and sign it. And then maybe add som pages for frequent suggestions, in the case of GW2, I'm thinking of at least these:

  • Hairstylist
  • auction house
  • mounts
  • player houses
  • flying

And a few others I'm sure I'll think of at 3 AM tonight. That's it for now, I'll try check in from time to time keep up with the conversation, and hopefully will be able to contribute more when I get back on May 14th. (Satanael 18:43, 1 May 2008 (UTC)) p.s., also, are these portals going to be incorporated into the into the GW2 wiki as well? That might save some future hassle, at least for the GW2 suggestion page, and I imagine some others like skills and such...

i hope this organization is applied to gw1 suggestions as well....75.165.111.218 22:44, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Please enjoy your holiday in France first, Satanael! Suggestions can definitely wait for that. :)
I can surely see that a collaborative scheme could result in all sorts of madness - not least that people simply wouldn't follow it or would go ahead and completely rewrite an idea as it suits them. In this regard I agree that maintaining a scratch pad for ideas where anyone can come and have a say, feel like they have a bit of ownership and have some discussion about the idea has definite advantages.
I do think, however, there is a definite need for a strong structure and consolidation of ideas underlying any ranting or raving which goes on. This is more than just archiving - it is about access to ideas and readily identifying the new and interesting ideas. Part of what is failing about the current scheme is that it is difficult for ArenaNet to access the ideas because of repetition, different ideas mashed in together and the tonne of comments (some constructive, some not). And the lack of archiving. :P There is never a point where an idea is concisely stated and easy to access for them. I guess I'm hoping that the layout I've suggested supports that.
I think that the frequently requested can be pulled from this background structure. So they might normal live in pve/mounts or pve/player_trading but would be pulled out for special mention. I think that pointing out these very requested things would be handy if only to stop these particular ideas from coming up time and again. Because I am so sure that ArenaNet already knows that half the population wants GW to be like everyone other MMORPG out there. ;)
In closing; I think that the opening/lead in suggestions page could look a lot like the current suggestions pages where anyone can leave an idea. The common ideas can have a call out here. But behind that we need a tight structure and good organization. Titles reworded for clarity, unique ideas made into pages, the ranting and raving archived into the talk pages of these pages. Yes, this is work and requires editorialization, either a simple archive scheme or my idealistic collaborative scheme would be less work here, but these pages are only good if ArenaNet can actually use them to get ideas from or else everyone is just wasting their time. :(
Other things; They've created an ArenaNet space in GW2W so something similar could be implemented there. But nothing is going to happen there for a while I don't think. Also I don't see why this wouldn't be applied to the GW1 suggestions - it's just seems there are more suggestions for gw2 hence my focus. </endwalloftext> --Aspectacle 09:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
i think that this:ArenaNet:Guild Wars 2 suggestions looks awsome and i hope it will be implented right away. i dont see anything that should stop it, i think we should archive everything in the current gw2 and gw1 pages and switch to that style asap, i only suggest archiving everything so we can start fresh and maybe go back and place some of the stuff into category's.. like i said on one of the pages the skill section for gw1 should be linked to Izzy's skill page which should be one like the one on the anet portal page, which is excellently organized. i also agree the main problem with how it is right now is the lack of organization. part of the problem with the gw1 suggestions is that most people know that the gernaric response is gw2 > gw1 right now, and a reminder that suggestions for gw1 should be rather simple and stuff that wouldn't require lots of game changes, would be more likely to be thought about and maybe implmented...75.165.97.72 09:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

(Reset indent) How exactly are we going to be moving all this, since just the suggestions pages; GW and GW2; are a huge undertaking on their own there is the chance that in the middle of it people will still be adding stuff to the various sections or creating new suggestions which could cause problems. One solution would be for ArenaNet to have a bit of downtime and let the respective people do the actual moving and then once it is back up we can go in and if need be organize it to the way that has been discussed. Having ArenaNet do the bulk of it while the wiki is temporarily offline would mean there is no chance of what I mentioned above happening. Also we should have a site notice to let people know the new location, change links to point to the new location and for the first little while have the old location set up as a redirect to the new location. Just a few thoughts I had. --Kakarot Talk 12:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

(Reset indent) i dont think there should be that much of a problem. if all of the pages are ready before had and then everything is archived at the same time it should go rather smoothly i think. the pages in question dont get changed that much for this to be a consurn i don't think, but i dont know. also i dont think many people know that they exist in the first place because they dont have a link on the main page.75.165.97.72 20:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Heya Kakarot. I'm not sure that we need much downtime, but a bit of time might be nice to get the version here to exactly equivalent (no loss of comments) to Gaile's version. Otherwise I'm not sure that much advertisement is needed - people seem to come into the page from Regina's or Gaile's pages. *shrugs* --Aspectacle 03:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Yeah the site notice was a bit of an over kill so to speak, just a redirect from the old pages as well as changing the two links that appear on the Main Page would be more than sufficient. --Kakarot Talk 13:51, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
This sounds great so far, maybe somebody who's not working on a friend's laptop in a Norman hotel (*bashfully blushes*) could help to give us a mock-up of what this new suggestions page might look like now? That way we can start in with more direct and constructive discussions. Thanks in advance to whoever does the leg work, normally I'm not a sit back and let others do the work kind of guy, so I feel a little weird making the request, but c'est la vie... (Satanael 21:38, 11 May 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Please actually mock out a page, it doesn't have to be "official"

Since there isn't an existing portal page for this namespace, please mock something out as opposed to just linking it here on the talk page (we don't need to worry about an editcopy a la the main page yet), and let's try tweaking it a bit so we can actually get something working rather than talking in theoreticals. Just put a notice at the top that it's under construction, and let's get going. :) Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 03:39, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Subpages

I'm just reviewing what I can and can't do for doing some automation around new suggestions pages. There was some discussion in the Pages section above about having and using subpages here. I don't think that subpages are turned on for the ArenaNet namespace. {{SUBPAGENAME}} on ArenaNet:Guild Wars 2 suggestions/Character returns "Guild Wars 2 suggestions/Character" rather than "Character" which it would if subpages were available. So...if no-one tells me that I've got it wrong or decides that we can do without subpages I'll ask Emily to turn subpages on for the ArenaNet namespace. --Aspectacle 11:52, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

A page is only recognized as a subpage if the parent page, in this case ArenaNet:Guild Wars 2 suggestions, exist. poke | talk 11:54, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
ArenaNet:Guild Wars 2 suggestions. So as I was saying... it seems there are no subpages. :) I'll stick in the request. --Aspectacle 22:44, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I like the scratch pad idea, although when I read the description of how it will work I think I had a slight misunderstanding that may have turned into an idea. Anyway, what I was thinking was that the article page side of the scratch pad would be a place for people to plug in the description of an idea, and then people would actually discuss the idea on the discussion page. That way, we could have the benefit of the idea being collaboratively developed by the community while still preserving a full conversation of it in the discussion page. To help facilitate this, is there anyway that we could code it so that when someone posts a new idea on the scratch pad, it could automatically create a section on the discussion page for it? That may complicate archiving, but it could be a pretty cool way to organize it if we can do it. (Satanael 07:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC))
Had another idea, maybe for the sub-page categories (characters, etc.) it might be helpful to have some sort of description somewhere for each one, maybe like an introduction on each page or something. That way people are more clear as to what exactly should be put into each one. (Satanael 07:51, 16 May 2008 (UTC))
Are you back from holidays, Satanael? :)
My (limited) experience with wikis is that editing one page will not allow you to permanently automatically add different content to another - basically its one page at a time. The skills feedback pages use a link to a talk page section under each idea for a skill which seems to work well enough. But as you say I haven't seen this archived and in the case of suggestions where there is bound to be plenty of duplication easy archiving could be an important thing. However, I'm not entirely sure that I entirely follow your idea. Is it something you can modify the current layout to give an example?
The category descriptions are definitely a good idea. At the moment the best place for that is on the first subpage (character, items...) itself. Having a scratch pad on each of the sub categories instead of on the main page might free up room on the main page for category descriptions.
Lots of ideas... we just need to make it happen. :) --Aspectacle 12:25, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I got back from holiday a couple days ago. As for my first idea, I think it was a bit of wishful thinking anyway, and I wouldn't even know how to begin to code it even if it was possible or doable. As for my second idea, good point, I'll start going into each page and adding my two cents on what should be included in each, feel free to edit as you feel necessary, as I'm not always the clearest of writers and I may not get all the lingo correct. (Satanael 10:59, 17 May 2008 (UTC))
You never know - sometimes wishful thinking isn't so hard to grant after all. :) Your lead paragraphs are looking good so far, I'll see if I can add a few. Take a look at Character and Armor I've added in a box which creates a page and uses categories to add it to the dynamic list on the page. The information which is preloaded into the page when you hit "create" is copied and pasted between each page type (armor, character, weapons) just to automate adding the categories. I'd like some feedback on the layout of that page before duplicating it everywhere, because it'd be more work to change then. :) --Aspectacle 00:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Looks good Aspectacle, one suggestion though (this is based on what we presently have for the skill suggestion pages) maybe add the code {{subst:TALKPAGENAME}}|Discussion]] below the Idea or even replace that line with something like
'''Idea''' ([[{{subst:TALKPAGENAME}}|Discussion]]) could work. --Kakarot Talk 02:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I tried out Kakarot's second suggestion above, see the latest addition to Armor. Seems to work pretty well, not sure how to add it to the template though (I suck at coding, if you'll pardon my French). I like the box's you've added, Aspectacle, the only thing I'd say is it would be nice if we could make the suggestion form just a little more user friendly. I was able to figure it out without much trouble, but I feel like some first-time users might be a little intimidated at first. I don't know, I'm not super concerned about it because just using it once or twice and it becomes easy, but I recall that Wikipedia has what actually looks like a form that you fill out on screen to request a peer review of an article, rather than putting it together in the edit secreen with the code all around it. I have no idea how to do that, but if anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears. (Satanael 10:21, 20 May 2008 (UTC))

I just thought that I'm not entirely sure if the subst would work with a template so I checked up on the skill version of this since I had actually manually coded that without looking (more fun that way) and it will have to use the following code instead of my second suggestion to get it to work on a template: [[<includeonly>{{subst:</includeonly>TALKPAGENAME<includeonly>}}</includeonly>|Discussion]] --Kakarot Talk 13:34, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I've implemented that change into the pages which are there. Satanael, I don't know how to do full web forms for a wiki, I think I'd need extra code extensions - possibly specially written. I don't know how to make it more friendly. If you want mess around with wording of the pages which make up those pages; ArenaNet:Create suggestion (the text in the create box), ArenaNet:Guild Wars 2 suggestions/subpage editintro (the text under the header, but before the edit box on the page creation page), ArenaNet:Guild Wars 2 suggestions/subpage preload character (the stuff loaded into the edit box of the page to be created, change 'character' to [armor|communication|pve|...] to get others only armor and character exist atm) --Aspectacle 10:57, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, my eyes getting bigger than my stomach again. No worries, I think this can work fine.
To be honest, when I made the last comment about the user-friendliness, I hadn't even noticed the edit intro (whoops), which makes a huge difference. I might play with the wording just a little bit to maybe make it a little more visible and "pretty", but other than that I think this thing is ready to go.
Also, Poke pointed out that adding all these pages and everything might add to the work when we start moving things over to make it "live", so we should try to keep our additions of new pages to a minimum for now. Maybe we just work with Armor and Character until we're ready to implement everything? I'll also start putting some of the "under construction" templates into existing pages to avoid confusion. (Satanael 07:52, 22 May 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Time to ask the people involved

Is it time to actually ask the involved Arenanet people if they would be interested in moving their pages into this namespace? (Or have we already and I have missed it?) If they want to move them here, we would also need to know if they want to moderate and archive the pages themselves, or want to leave some or all of it up to the community. - anja talk 12:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Hm. I would like to hear opinions from them how the whole ArenaNet namespace should work. poke | talk 15:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I responded on my user talk page but might as well post something here. I asked a few folks around the office who all agreed that it's a good idea to consolidate things like bug report pages and news into a more centralized place on the wiki. It might also be cool to link to the different ANet user pages so that folks who want to post feedback and questions on specific topics could approach us more easily. Bobby Stein 20:42, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Agree with Bobby. I will send a follow-up email today on questions I asked about this topic, since... well... "my" pages are sort of the 600-pound gorilla, methinks. :) I love the consolidation idea, but I want to make sure that if I shift over pages, I'm following the preferences of ArenaNet as far as where such pages are placed. When I first created a spot for Suggestions, et al, I did so off my User Page with the specific advice of folks at ArenaNet. So I want to make sure that the new name space is used as the company would prefer it, just as I would want to ask about such use if it were a "personal" user space.
I hope that makes sense to you, and I apologize if it's take a bit of time to decide on this. I'll share whatever info I have on this when I get it, and I'm sure other ArenaNet folks will do so, as well. I'm not "driving" this, but I'm a willing participant any time. :) Thanks. -- Gaile 20:45, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Sure, take your time. It's better to think about it before rushing into it and making wrong decisions :) poke | talk 20:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
That is so true Poke *cough Feb 14* xD
On a serious note though, there is another question that you could check up on Gaile, would it be best to archive pages like the GW/GW2 suggestions before moving them over considering the overall size of them including the present archives. --Kakarot Talk 20:56, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Just reiterating what Bobby said... I have no problem with the consolidation if the community is behind it. The bug report pages being hosted off my talk page was a legacy evolution from Gaile when it became clear my team was going to be more involved. So I'm deferring to the smarter people of the wikiverse who post here. --Mike Zadorojny 18:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I am fine with hosting the localization bug report pages here as well. I agree it's easier to have a central location for everything. --Jason Yu 22:26, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
We can also leave behind redirects (at least temporarily) in the respective user spaces so that people who are used to their original location won't be lost and can adapt over time to the new centralized namespace. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 22:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm in agreement with Mike, Jason, and Bobby. There's also general support for this around the office as Bobby noted. Whatever enables wiki visitors to find content more easily from a central location is a positive thing. --Regina Buenaobra Image:User Regina Buenaobra sig.png 21:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
As far as I know we're just waiting on a final decision from the "other" Mike. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 21:25, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
O'Brien? He supports this move and the community's effort to consolidate these pages to make it easier for wiki users to find information. --Regina Buenaobra Image:User Regina Buenaobra sig.png 21:29, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Alright, that's what we needed to know. I know Gaile had been trying to get in touch with him but it must have gotten lost in the shuffle. :) In that case, we should be able to move ahead with this. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 21:46, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I think what happened was that he may have missed it in his inbox the first time around. I got a ping from him today about it, so yes. --Regina Buenaobra Image:User Regina Buenaobra sig.png 21:51, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I got an email today as well, with Mike letting me know that he's on board for the move. As you guys know, I didn't want to make a suggestion about the placement of Suggestions until I was sure what Mike's thoughts were on the matter. Now we all know, it's "go go go!" on the moving project. :) -- Gaile 21:53, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, ok :) Then it's time to decide if we want to split those (large) pages into smaller ones, maybe sorted by topics.. poke | talk 22:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] News items

Since the above discussion seems at a halt for now, i would like to just discuss these items. Since they are already linked here and are also directly related to Anet or the official information they release, should the articles in the News section be moved to the Anet namespace?.--Fighterdoken 19:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I would say no, as they are not wiki-centric but rather merely mirroring/documenting information released elsewhere. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 20:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I would prefer to have that here as well, as the namespace would otherwise only be used as a "submit your comments"-namespace. And when I remember it correctly, the whole idea about the namespace startet on the Dev updates talk page. poke | talk 20:31, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
To avoid confussion, i am talking about: Game updates, Developer Updates, GuildWars.com news, Login screen announcements and The Scribe. Not really sure on Developer talk actually. And about moving such topics or not, i will just repeat that old GWW saying: "what poke said" :).--Fighterdoken 21:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I still think that at the very least, Game updates should stay in mainspace, as they pertain directly to the "physical" game. The others are debatable. (Also, poke, I think that I would have a very good idea where the namespace idea started.) Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 21:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Even if you had the original idea, the issue was raised in another place, for related reasons, but with a different application in mind.--Fighterdoken 22:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure what your point is - and the only difference I see is Lemming stating that maybe we could put Game Updates in it as well. I happen to disagree with that. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 22:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
(IC) IMO, Developer Updates and The Scribe should be moved to the new portal (The Scribe has been discontinued anyway), everything else kept as it is. The Game updates not only are about the "physical" game, like Aiiane said, but they're also filled with Wiki comments (not the ones in the talk pages, rather the Wiki notes). I think the "official" things inside the Arena Net portal should not be touched by common users (unless it's to wikify it, of course). Erasculio 22:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflicts...) Ah, I just saw that your page was linked there, didn't notice that the last time I checked. But why do you disagree? I see the ArenaNet namespace as an information portal from the developer side and I think Game updates belong to that as well. poke | talk 22:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
"the "official" things" - the main usage for the namespace will be to get user-input. poke | talk 22:07, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Because the game updates are actual, physical modifications to the game, and not merely discussion about the game. It's liked comparing the changelog of a piece of software to the developer mailing list - one is shipped with the software as documentation, the other isn't. Essentially, I see the ArenaNet namespace as effectively being the "mailing list" or "forum"-esque portion of ArenaNet interaction, while the mainspace is the documentation portion, and game updates falls much more into the latter category. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 22:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
(EC) Exactly. The few "official things" inside the namespace (such as the Developer Updates) should be kept untouched, IMO. The game updates, in other hand, are improved by the wiki notes. I see the Developer Updates as messages from Arena Net to the community (and everything userbased as messages from the community to Arena Net), and the game updates don't really feel like that kind of thing. Erasculio 22:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
(Edit conflict x2) I think precisely that is a good reason for moving game updates also. After all, the game updates section is one of the articles that brings the most discussion, problem reports and game-related feedback to the wiki. Even if short lived most of the time, the "forum-like" view is still there, so maybe moving it could allow Anet to give also a little of feedback in there.--Fighterdoken 22:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Discussion itself is not specific to the ArenaNet space - any talk page involves discussion. However, most of the pages considered for here (Suggestions pages, skill balance pages, etc) are devoted solely to discussion - none of them are documenting actual game elements or changes. That's the key point to my belief here: Game updates pages are primarily documenting updates, and have discussion on the talk page as a secondary role, while suggestions, developer updates, skill balance discussion, et cetera all have dialogue as their primary purpose. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 22:20, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Or both places. (Aren't they are actually duplicated already?) One to document and one as a place for them to be debated, commented on, etc. that users like to do when presented with new information. -- Inspired to ____ 22:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
No, they're not currently duplicated. I'd prefer to avoid redundancy, since that means twice as many places to update, and it's really not necessary. Talk pages already provide a place to discuss, there's no reason to have the equivalent of a talk page elsewhere; we don't need to be draconian with our separations. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 22:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Oh, i understand your point now, sorry. In that case none of the "news" sections would be fit to be moved.
When i first saw this namespace being proposed, i thought it was intended for all the "anet-specific topics that are better here than left alone in the wild". I actually missed most of the discussion being carried, so i am not sure what was the actual "use" of this namespace going to be (but surely never thought it was going to be a "forum-like only" namespace).--Fighterdoken 22:26, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I could see a case for Developer updates being located here, since they're essentially the dialogue companions to game updates - they'd fit in well with the other potential namespace content. News probably best belongs in mainspace, since it's typically also "documentation"-like, even if not always concerning the workings of the game specifically, but rather significant events. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 22:31, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I thought of this namespace as a "gatherer of info from Arenanet, not the game directly".. - anja talk 22:33, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I think my original proposal for the namespace sums up my thinking best: "to house any and all pages intended for purposes related to communication with ArenaNet as an entity" (my boldings). Communication implies a dialogue, which implies a flow of conversation between both parties. Game updates aren't a conversation, they're statements. News isn't a conversation, it's statements. Dev updates, on the other hand, are a part of a conversation with the player base as a whole, just responding in general terms rather than to specific speakers. Likewise, suggestions and bug reports are part of a dialogue with ArenaNet, even if not always directly answered. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 22:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Then we can also move the talk pages of the ANet people to this namespace... Sorry, but I agree with Anja. poke | talk 22:46, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I have no problem understanding your point Aiiane. I don't agree with it though. I do think we could as well have content that does not primarly focus on communication here. My focus is information not communication. Communication is part of it, but information was my first idea. - anja talk 22:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
To poke: Um, we already are moving (significant portions) of the ANet people's talk pages to this namespace, I'm not sure what you're getting at.
To Anja: Why would we document the game itself in anything other than mainspace? That's the entire purpose of mainspace, because it's the core purpose of the wiki. Furthermore, I've only seen two people on both the initial namespace proposal page, and this talk page, even mentioning possible putting Game updates here - you and poke. Everyone else seems to leave them out when discussing things; see the proposed categories above for an example. I think that leaving News and Updates in mainspace is more natural to people who are simply looking for information. Most of what is going in here isn't information, it's communication. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 23:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I meant the normal talk pages, not the subpages.
So you think the mainspace is the only namespace that is acceptable for documenting the game? So all our Guild articles are no documentation but communication/discussion? Then why bothering about what they have on their pages? And the Image namespace is not used for documentation as well? So then we can simply delete all images. - Of course, that is stupid, but wiki namespaces are not to distinguish between the purposes of the wiki. The only purpose of this wiki is documentating the game. Everything else is just helping to achieve that; the Help namespace is to help people who are new to the wiki, the Guild Wars Wiki namespace is used to control about what is done etc. But you cannot say the main space is documentation and namespace XY is communication. The only communication namespaces are XY talk (you can also see that by looking at the tabs, there it says "discussion"). Saying that the contents that we want to move from the ArenaNet people's talk, to create a central position for all those things, are only communication is false. We are documentating what users suggesting about GW/GW2, we are documentating what skills could be changed to make the game eventually more balanced, and we are documentating what is wrong in the game and if that will be changed and why.
What I want to say is that we cannot simply say this namespace is for communication with ANet, as we also would have to have to move things like Guild Wars Wiki:Report a wiki bug (which is communication with ANet), GWW:TECH and also all talk pages of all ArenaNet members that are registered here. It would be better to stick to a definition as Anja said: Game information we get directly from ANet instead of the game. Or something similar.
And just because nobody mentioned the Game updates yet, it doesn't mean that it should not be here. Apart from Fighterdoken, who accepted to that above, I think many of them didn't think about that. And actually I don't see a harm in moving things, we get directly from ANet to an own namespace; they will still be reachable then.
Finally it would probably better to wait for some official statement (see section above) on how they want to have us use this namespace. poke | talk 23:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Poke, you know just as well as I do that I'm not suggesting deleting the image and guild namespaces. Strawman arguments are not useful here. We're not forced to move anything here. You're acting too much like this has to be governed by absolute rules, but it doesn't. The guild namespace documents guilds, not the game itself. The image namespace is a support namespace used to provide images to all of the other namespaces.
I have to disagree with your statement that making suggestions is game documentation, however. Documentation is not subjective, it is objective. Suggestions are, by their very nature, subjective. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 00:14, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Suggestions and subjective do not correlate. Suggestions can be either subjective or objective, just as documentation can be either. Many of us try to keep our suggestions, whether about what should be included in this namespace or how a skill should be changed, objective, although we often fail. And, regardless of the level of either, I would see attempting to move toward something that can actually be objectified as the point of encouraging discussion over any issue. And if it is entirely a subjective matter over whether the game updates should go in this space or not, whose opinion should govern. ANet? Even, if that was so, that only works if we can get an opinion from them, and I don't see why it would be their call.
I don't understand how these things that have been on the mocked up portal page for a few weeks now suddenly become an issue. What was the point of creating a mock up of the page supposed to be if not to determine what would be included in the namespace and thus on it? -- Inspired to ____ 00:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd point out that only two people have edited that mock up, myself and poke. And my versions did not include Game updates. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 00:54, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

(Reset indent) To Aiiane: The problem is that I don't see the game update notes as documenting the game. I see them as something in between, they are official notes from ArenaNet on what will change, but the actual documentation of the game is presented in the relevant articles. I guess that's where our disagreement stems from :) - anja talk 07:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The thing is that it's not what will change, it's what has changed. They're definitive and reference material, whereas suggestions, bug reports, explanations of past or future changes (dev updates), and the like aren't pure reference, but rather (sorry about repeating this over and over, but it's what best fits) a dialogue between players and ArenaNet. Essentially, my line of thought is "what is relevant to a player who doesn't care about discussing the game at all, but only about what they'll encounter as an individual player as they play" -- in my mind, things that answer that question belong in mainspace. Game updates are definitely something a completely isolated player encounters when they play the game: they log in and things are different. That same player, however, could go forever without caring why a skill was changed, or what player #416 thinks should be tweaked about DoA, et cetera. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 07:57, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Dev updates are definitive in the same way as Game updates; they are information ANet gives us about changes. While the Game updates describe changes, the Dev updates often explains those changes. There is no discussion, it's pure information with the ability - which is everywhere - to leave comments about that on the talk page. That people from ANet answer there doesn't matter as they are - of course - also allowed to add comments on every other talk page or do you want to limit that to the ANet and the User talk namespace? Also most of the skill balancing, GW1/2 suggestions and bug reports are not discussion with ANet. Either ANet only reads it and posts rarely a comment, or they stop the discussion with a simple "will be fixed", "was fixed", "is not a problem" etc. (this is done on the bug reports pages even with icons only).
Also I don't see a big line between the main namespace and the ANet namespace. It is not that is completely different, it is just a word more which will be displayed in the front; and this word is - to me - telling me that that what I'm reading is directly involved with ANet, either as information we got from them or as a place to give my input to them.
And sorry Aiiane, but as long as you are only picking out the parts of what I say you like to, instead of reading it all, I don't see a need to continue this discussion with you. poke | talk 10:51, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue but in any case, the talk pages for both the dev updates/game updates sometimes overlap with each other as well as with opinions and discussions on Izzy's (and others) current pages. If the objective of the Areanet namespace is consolidation (aka one stop shop type of deal), then I really think we should be worrying less about the namespace location and more with creating a better user environment for interaction with Anet (which Poke was getting at I think.) In short, if it's necessary, I'd suggest keeping the game updates on it's current namespace and having the talk page at the very least redirect to the appropriate discussion/feedback page for that update. In light of this, I think the discussion pages about individual skills/dev updates should follow Anet's example and have a seperate section for both. Major updates can cause alot of feedback though it may be easier to follow with the PvE/PvP split if PvE is going to remain static. As I said, I might be misunderstanding the intent of all of this in the first place. PlacidBlueAlien 17:04, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What is the ArenaNet namespace for?

Since this was raised as an issue in other the above section of this talk page, i have to ask: What is the main purpose of the ArenaNet namespace? Using it as a place for gathering feedback from the community to Anet? A place for gathering feedback from Anet to the community? Both? None?. I feel certain incongruence between what was being discussed here first and what is being discussed 1 month later...--Fighterdoken 00:44, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

As I pointed out above, the "first" discussion was not the top section of this page. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 01:42, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
IMO, there's no incongruence. Since the beginning there were different opinions on what, exactly, would be in this namespace (take a look at Brains12's table of contents, and the following list poke made - it already had the "let's add update notes here/let's not" argument). Waiting for Arena Net's reply is, IMO, the best choice of action here, unless the community itself could reach a consensus before that. Erasculio 01:43, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
ArenaNet has already stated that they don't want to guide everything on the wiki. While ANet's input is certainly useful in this case, we shouldn't simply defer all discussion to ArenaNet. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 01:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Broadly, I think everyone agrees, and that includes ArenaNet from what I've seen, that things which are currently subpages of user pages basically because that's just where they were put should go here. That includes all the skill and game suggestions, bug reports, and things like these. Also, I don't think that anyone would suggest that any of the main space game articles would be better here. So that essentially leaves the items that currently listed in the news section. Right or wrong, and not even sure why, but my impression has been that this was being based on whether it was documenting the current facts of the game or something else. But, what should it be...clear and easy answer, if there is one, is that articles should be where they are the easiest for users of the wiki to find. Absent that making a difference and since for a lot of the debated articles, that is their only reason for even being here at all since they are just duplicates of things already on the Guild Wars site, it doesn't make any difference because they are just pages and the space they are in really just determines the name of the page. (Unless we're going to have a policy like the user or guild policies that only covers the ArenaNet space.) -- Inspired to ____ 02:34, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree with the bolded statement. Now, whether we can agree on what fulfills that is another matter. :)
If anything, I would suggest keeping Game updates in the mainspace simply so that typing "game updates" in the search box and hitting "Go" will bring up the page immediately, since it's one of the most common things people coming to the wiki will be looking for - and they'll associate it specifically with the game, not with ArenaNet. Dev updates, suggestions, et cetera are all specifically "I want to talk to ArenaNet" or "I want to hear from ArenaNet", but game updates are "what changed in the game?" Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 03:03, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Apart from the fact that your "first" discussion was imo only about if we should have the namespace or not, without really discussing what should be there apart from the obvious, a discussion about having things like game updates or not never happened (apart from the above). The discussion in the first sections on this page was only how to organize the pages, not if they should be there or not.
"This list contains all recent updates as published on the official Game update site." - this is the sentence from the Game updates page; imo that means "information from ANet" or to use your words "I want to hear from ArenaNet". "What changed in the game" doesn't matter, as all articles, which have a relation to a change, will be up to date. (See the section above for a comment about dev updates.) Also I don't think a permanent redirect on Game updates would be problematic, so you could just enter "Game updates" and get to the page, no matter where it is. poke | talk 10:51, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Another point in consideration that we could have is the "common-user editability" (is that a word?). In normal main articles, we let users to edit, reword, reformat, and pretty much include anything and everything they find relevant as long as it complies with our guidelines. This is not the case of pages like Game Updates, Dev Updates, etc, were the information is to be kept "as is" (with minor formatting only), and where even foot notes are heavily regulated. As such, those pages are given already special treatment, and thus could not be seen to fit in the normal main space either. Also, all these pages contain information directly released by ArenaNet in a official format (heck, even the April 1st information is "official" and not to be edited besides footnotes), so at least from my point of view is best suited to be placed on the respective namespace instead of the main namespace.--Fighterdoken 17:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
That's probably the most compelling reasoning I've seen so far, however, I'm concerned with how that might contrast with the suggestion and bug/localization pages. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 18:08, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
We could continues with bug/localization pages as they were at the beginning that the main page was originally only a manual on how to add new things and the talk pages were for the user discussion; but I think it would be a lot cleaner to have it not like that. poke | talk 18:29, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

(Reset indent) So, if I'm understanding the above right, we can summarize as follows: There is a fundamental difference in some of the pages currently provided in the ArenaNet Portal. There are pages like Game Updates, The Scribe, Login Screen Announcements, etc. that are mainly official information flowing from ArenaNet to the GW Community (ANet -> GWC), these pages contain official info and editers are discouraged or even prohibited from making any substantial changes to these pages (wikify, don't change); and then there are the bug, localization, suggestions and skill feedback pages which mainly consist of the GW Community talking to ANet about the game(s) and the future of the game(s) (GWC -> ANet). These pages are open for editers new and old to add whatever they want so long as it is on topic.

It seems clear that the GWC -> ANet pages need to go in this portal because they are the pages that are mostly in username spaces right now and generally difficult for people to find or even know about. The question seems to be whether or not the ANet -> GWC pages should also go in this portal or not.

With a name like "ArenaNet Portal", it is logical that the exchange of information with ArenaNet, in both directions, should go under this portal. However, if that's the case, then this portal should probably have a bigger spot on the Main Page than the one it currently has. I might go so far as to say that it could replace the "Updates, news and events" box on the Main Page. Maybe a reshuffle of the Main Page is in order? Otherwise, we can just keep it to GWC -> ANet pages, and leave the Main Page as is. Comments or ideas? (Satanael 08:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC))

/Sigh..another spot for need-to-know or better-know information from ArenaNet? Veto? Anyone? -- Silverleaf User_talk:Silverleaf 22:19, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Blogs

Okay...given that there appears to be openness to having a Developer Blog, I would suggest that it is in the communities best interest to set up what we can that both makes it easy and worthwhile for whomever at ArenaNet wants to add to a blog to do so. To me that means it exists on a main page that only ArenaNet users (we need to get them all signed up as wiki users) can add to and that the discussion that inevitably surrounds any such comments doesn't overwhelm the comments (hard to control). -- Inspired to ____ 01:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] ArenaNet talk/Talk

The namespace talk has gone back to the uppercase Talk... wasn't this fixed a few weeks ago? -- Brains12 \ talk 21:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

yeah :/ poke | talk 22:03, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Holding off on Skill Feedback move

Until subpaging is enabled again, I'm holding off on moving Izzy's skill pages, since they use templates that rely on subpaging for relative locations. (Also poke, once subpaging is enabled will it automatically move the sub-sub pages for each profession? Or are we going to have to hand/bot move the individual pages for each skill etc?) Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 22:38, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I think we have to do that on our own, but I can set a bot up for that, and then we can have it run one night :P
Btw. what should we do about the bug report pages? The translation ones are nearly all on the page itself and not on the talk page, but the other bug report pages are on the talk pages. What is better? I would prefer the main page, as it allows to have the talk page to "talk" about things ^^ poke | talk 22:42, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Main page is fine, as long as we remember to add the + button for adding sections, which shouldn't be an issue. I don't know if we want to do that move yet, though... let's try and get things moved over first before we start tweaking too much. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 22:44, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
It was just something that came to my mind :P Meh, Gaile/Frog talk subpages :| You change the names, and I move all pages from Gaile/Frog Talk/* to ArenaNet:Ingame Talk/* ? (btw. wouldn't "In-game talk" be better?) poke | talk 22:47, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I was just sticking with the previous format, which was Gaile/Frog Talk, hence Ingame Talk. I don't really have a preference in that regard, move it if you want. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 22:49, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Phew. All Gaile/Frog Talk subpages moved. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 23:15, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Starting bot move "Developer Updates/*" to "ArenaNet:Developer updates/*" poke | talk 23:16, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
done. :P I <3 Wikichu poke | talk 23:18, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
ArenaNet:GuildWars.com news needs its archives moved, preferably via bot. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 23:19, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
To add something else slightly unrelated - some navbars? -- Brains12 \ talk 23:24, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
If we do add them, I'd strong prefer separate ones. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 23:27, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Starting move, btw. someone needs to change the links later :P poke | talk 23:28, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I was leaning towards separate ones too. I do think that navbars are essential for quick browsing through each relevant page; so I don't really think it's a case of "if", but "when" and "how." As you can see above, I left the idea of using subpages if navbars were used instead. -- Brains12 \ talk 23:31, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Move done btw :P poke | talk 23:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Several archive boxes still need updating (I tried and failed to point them to the correct location). --Xeeron 11:29, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
The portal will probably end up linked in the left hand nav, right? Then we don't really need a nav bar on each page linking back to it. A nav linking to the relevant sections should be enough, like the "separate" one in your examples, Pling.
Any timeline on enabling subpages, have anyone even asked Anet yet? (I guess you have) - anja talk 06:13, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Already mentioned it to Emily. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 06:16, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Guild Wars 2 Suggestions

So, some people decided to start setting up a Guild Wars 2 suggestions page in this namespace a few weeks ago. That's great and all, but leaves us with an issue: there already was a page for it in Gaile's userspace. How do we want to go about merging those? By hand, or do we just want to move the page from Gaile's space to an "archive" of some sort and start with the new setup? Do we prefer the old setup? More input here would be great. Go to Aiiane's Talk page (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 06:19, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Speaking as someone who has spent a lot of time on the GW2 Suggestions page, I think most people would be okay with archiving almost everything on Gaile's page as is, and starting fresh with a redirect to the new page. Part of the reason for this being that everyone on Gaile's suggestion page agrees that it gets way too big way too quick, and most things are totally disorganized, so people have known for a while that once your idea goes into archive, it's pretty much buried.
To minimize the pain of it, maybe we can move some of the most recent suggestions to the "scratchpad" on the new page, so people can continue active conversations, and archiving the rest. Maybe, as a rule of thumb for the move, any suggestion with the last comment being within the last 48 hours goes on the scratch pade, and the rest in archive? Maybe Gaile has an opinion, since it's her page and all... (Satanael 07:43, 30 May 2008 (UTC))
I agree with Satanael wrt the archive. I'd be happy to do some manual work moving suggestions around initially too. I just need an agreed final destination and structure.
About the old setup; most of the time I cannot get to the GW2 Suggestions page due to the length - and that is usually only half a month of suggestions. I think that reform is required to at least reduce page size but also reduce repetition and increase visibility of earlier suggestions. --Aspectacle 10:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I would prefer moving the page completely first and working then on a archive and a new front-page.. So we could keep the history and wouldn't break current discussions (48 hours are nothing in wiki discussions..) poke | talk 10:50, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Also especially as this is for suggestions there will be the same suggestions again and again, it would probably better to split into multiple pages and keep all the discussions unarchived, so that people can read that first and maybe even continue there. poke | talk 10:51, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
The GW2 suggestions page really needs a setup like Izzy's skill suggestions page. That is, a front page, where suggestions are listed (but not discussed), where each suggestion links to a subpage where the actual discussion takes place. That way it is much easier to keep track of which suggestions have been made before and that in turn reduces the amount of double and tripple suggestions. --Xeeron 11:25, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd also prefer to use the new version over the old since it's a lot cleaner looking and easier to use, although the old one also had separate sections more often than not stuff was usually suggested and discussed on the main page. As to how we should deal with the old suggestions pages, archiving would be the easiest but not necessarily the best way.
@Xeeron - That was discussed in the above