Feedback talk:User/Atanna Charta/Elite Skill Cooldown Too Long

Excellent critiques of the shortcomings of long elite cooldowns. I would add one more:

4) Bob is in a fight and starting to lose. He's been saving his elite for just this particular reason; to turn the tide of battle in his favor. He activates his elite but it happens to coincide with the moment some other wandering random players show up to participate in the battle/dynamic event he's engaged in. With the arrival of the new group of players, the enemies Bob was fighting are quickly defeated and his elite is essentially wasted because he didn't get the chance to use it to full effect. Now he's penalized with a 12 minute recharge before he can use it again.

I liken it to bringing long casting time non-elite skills when partying up with a full team of human players. A good human team wipes out enemies so quickly that bringing anything with a cast time of more than 2 seconds (or even 1 second in really good parties) is a waste. By the time I get to the end of a 2 second cast, the target enemy I was casting on is already dead (or nearly so such that the skill is not being used to full effect). If the enemy was still alive but only by a a few points of health at the end of that casting, I've now wasted energy and a skill that I have to wait on to recharge. I know we're talking about cool down times rather than cast times, but the concept is the same; wasting a skill because the situation you're using it in changes too quickly to use it to full effect.

Of course, this scenario can happen even with a shorter cool down time for elites. But the odds of this happening are greater the longer the cool down time. Though that seems counterintuitive, it's not correlated simply with the number of times an elite can be used in a given time period but when at a specific point in a battle the elite is used. If - due to long cool down times - players are delaying the use of their elite until a battle is going really, really badly, the odds of using the elite at a moment when someone else shows up to assist you in a fight will be greater (and thus potentially wasted).

This is not just theoretical. I recently watched a GW2 demo video from one of the games conventions. There was a Charr necromancer fighting some enemies. The player activated the elite "Plague" during the battle. However, between his minions and some other players who showed up to assist with the fight, the enemies were defeated pretty quickly and the necromancer just hung around as a cloud of Plague doing nothing for the remaining duration of the skill. Then back to waiting 12 minutes before being able to use it again. What a waste.

Before anyone counters that the player in the demo video was playing dumb for having used their elite at the "wrong" time, I would have this to say. In an instanced game like GW1 where you know exactly the number and composition of the other players, heroes, or henchmen in your party, I would agree with you; there would be no excuse for wasting an elite at the "wrong" time. But in a true persistent-world MMO like GW2 where dozens, scores, or even hundreds of other players could be coming and going in your general vicinity and are free to join in any battle they come across, there's no way to accurately predict exactly when some other player or players are going to show up to assist you. Thus, you won't be able to time your use of an elite with as much precision as you could in the instanced GW1. The point at which you start to cast your elite may indeed be the "right" time based on the circumstances of the battle at that moment. By the time you've cast it, though, the entire theatre could have changed with the arrival of 10 other players. But now you're penalized with 12 minutes of cool down time of your elite.

Also, players will get disappointed. The whole turning-the-tide-of-battle concept behind the elite would be ruined. Instead of a player feeling really good about having used their elite at just the right moment and emerging victorious based soley on their own performance, it now becomes, "I used my elite and would have beaten the enemies myself. But you (some additional random players who showed up to assist in the fight) killed off the monsters before I had the chance to do anything and wasted my elite, dammit! Now I have to wait 12 minutes to recharge. Thanks alot. Next time, don't help me!!!" The use of an elite now becomes an anti-climactic disappointment rather than the heroic accomplishment it was intended to be.

I think ArenaNet is going to have to seriously reconsider the 12 minute recharge time on elites because the sense I'm starting to get from the grumblings I'm reading on the forums is that is just not going to be acceptable to the player base. Guild Wars 3 perhaps 16:39, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree with these scenarios as you've already pointed out that a player is supposed to find the balance for Elite skills. If you are required to activate the Elite skill prematurely you are simply not playing at the level of gameplay required and should get more gameplay experience under your belt. 12 minutes recharge for a game-changing skill appears to be perfectly balanced and it would be best if ArenaNet does not attempt to "rebalance" the recharges unless otherwise impossible. I do not approve of a Guild Wars balancing fail all over again. This feedback may be important months into the actual game, if elite skills do turn out to be a sensitive issue. - Infinite - talk 16:49, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

But that was my point. It's easy to find the balance for an Elite skill in an instanced world where you know all of the variables; how many players are in your party, what skills did they bring, how much health do they have, what runes and insignias are they equipped with, what is their level of proficiency in playing the game, etc., etc. In GW1 you know all of this (or most of it) such that you can readily gauge when best to use an elite to synergize with the party's present condition and the combat situation they're facing. In a free-flowing, persistent world where any random player can join in and out of any combat, anywhere, and at any time, there's no way to know those variables.

It has nothing to do with not playing at the level of gameplay required. The player using an Elite in GW2 may - per the situation they are faced with at the split second they begin to use their Elite - be using that skill at exactly the "right" time. But then other players either join or leave the fight and the entire dynamic can change in an instant. It will not be the case in every fight that this change will result in a "wasted" use of an Elite, but it will certainly be a possibility. In such situations, players are now penalized with a 12 minute recharge even though they did everything "right" with regards to the timing and use of their Elite.

I understand ArenaNet's desire to make an Elite something truly epic when used. Part of making something "epic" is making it rare; in this case, less frequently used. I get it...I really do...and even applaud their effort to turn Elites into...well...ELITES. But from a game mechanics standpoint, I agree with the original poster's critiques and that the reality of how Elites will actually be used (or not used, as the case may be) will more closely mirror the scenarios they presented rather than the epic, game-changing, turn-the-tide-of-battle awesomeness that they are currently being marketed as.

Here's one suggestion that may address the problem. Make Elites increase in power over time; a charge-up if you will. To reach the maximum effective potential of the Elite will take 12 minutes. Used any sooner than that and it will be a less powerful version. Of course, there would be a cool down period after any use of an Elite during which it can not be used at all; regardless of what point in its charge-up cycle it was activated. This way, it can't simply be abused by a player as a spammable (albeit weaker than a full Elite) utility skill. Once used, the Elite starts its charge-up cycle all over again from the beginning. So, just for illustration purposes and not intended to be an absolute guide written in stone, it could go something like this:

1. Use Elite.
2. Seconds 0 to 60 after use: Absolute cool down of 1 minute during which time the Elite can not be used again.
3. Minute 1 to Minute 2: Elite is at 8.5% of full power.
4. Minute 2 to Minute 3: Elite is at 17% of full power.
5. Minute 3 to Minute 4: Elite is at 25.5% of full power.
6. Minute 4 to Minute 5: Elite is at 34% of full power.
7. Minute 5 to Minute 6: Elite is at 42.5% of full power.
8. Minute 6 to Minute 7: Elite is at 51% of full power.
9. Minute 7 to Minute 8: Elite is at 59.5% of full power.
10. Minute 8 to Minute 9: Elite is at 68% of full power.
11. Minute 9 to Minute 10: Elite is at 76.5% of full power.
12. Minute 10 to Minute 11: Elite is at 85% of full power.
13. Minute 11 to Minute 21: Elite is at 93.5% of full power.
14. Minute 12: Elite is at 100% of full power.

Now players have an option of using the skill at any time within 1 minute after its last use. But now they have to weigh whether to use it earlier but weaker or wait longer for it to power up to maximum. This adds some strategy to the use of Elites rather than an all-or-nothing every 12 minutes (with the attendant pitfalls of such a long recharge as detailed by the OP). Guild Wars 3 perhaps 08:22, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

That would be perfect, and in pvp it would start in recharge, so you never know when another player will strike. It'd also be a drawbreaker in drawish maps. You should really make this a full suggestion so it is more likely to be seen. Greep 17:33, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Eh, honestly I don't think any of the scenarios represent why elites with 12 minute cooldowns are bad, but elites in PvP are bad. Its the fact that they will be too devastating when used in conjunction in PvP. Admittedly, spamming all your party's elites at once is bad. There is activate defense that nullifies damage. However, this active defense of course has a recharge. If elites are in fact allowed in PvP I predict people will just use all their party's elites within a 1-2 minute window, effectively pressuring out the other team to annihilation. Additionally only elites that would allow this would be used, establishing a day one static meta. Greep 02:48, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it will be necessary to use the elite skill in every fight. In fact, if you are forced to use your elite skill at all, something has gone terribly wrong. I view (and I think the developers are thinking along the same lines) the elite skill as being separate from the other skills: they are something extra rather than something vital. I am confident that the devs balanced the baseline difficulty of PvE taking only skills 1-9 into account. In PvP, the devs really liked the mental game long-recharge elite skills brought to the table. Granted, people who lose their nerves or play recklessly will be Joes and Freds, but in PvP someone has to lose. At the same time, someone will be on the winning side, and why shouldn't it be the guy who used the right skill in the right place at the right time? In these cases, a 12-minute recharge would be permissable, even desirable. --Silverdawn 04:02, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

They aren't extra and they are vital. Might wanna look at them at guildwars 2 wiki Greep 04:04, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree that 12 min is very punishing but it might not be the worst thing depending on how the gameplay actually goes. I'm not to sure of the duration of each elite even after looking at the wiki, but this gw2 is ment to be solo-able so my impression is the few creatures that you encounter will hardly be enough to force you to use your elite. However there probably will be certain events/quest/bosses that will require the power of the elite. These events could be few and far between; far enough to justify the long recharge. At any rate I'm sure that the elites of gw2 won't have the same feel as gw1 so I'm going to back the new gameplay mechanics until we know an extensive amount more about the real senerios we will face and not just make some up based on gw1 fighting experience. Porcelain1 20:06, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

i think something like 8 minutes or 6 minutes in PvE is a little better (maybe 6 for plenty, and 8 for truly game-changing, like the warrior's banners one), and then in PvP, have modified versions (maybe less powerful, by a little), and then the 12 minute cooldown.

The progressive cooldown seems overpowered as originally stated... maybe exponential growth or similar, starting like 2%, about 30% by halfway, and like 75% or 80% a step before fully charged, so fully charged is actually still worth it, and only for in PvE (denying this altogether in PvP so it can't be abused even at 2%). However, not all elites are based around power, but duration (like Alpha Strike). ~~ Kiomadoushi 23:30, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Hear hear. Exactly what I was thinking but better thought out and worded. This is exactly the problem. I would like to add, that the main point in GW of the elite skill is it defines your build. A splinter barrager is useless without barrage. Or a discord necro's measly hexes and conditions won't kill anything without discord. In guild wars two the elite seems to just be something that anyone will sling on their bar without thought for extra damage. I want people to think about how they use their elite, and how it should interact with the rest of their skills, not "Oh i'm getting my ass kicked, time to summon hounds of balthazar."212.139.240.44 17:42, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

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UPDATE

It appears Elite recharges are now down to 180 seconds (3 minutes) from the previous 12 minute cool down as of the 2011 Demo/Gamescom. Thank you, ArenaNet; I think this will work much better than a 12 minute recharge. Guild Wars 3 perhaps 02:47, 23 August 2011 (UTC)