Talk:Loot scaling

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Contents 1 Are collectibles affected? 2 Loot Scaling and Anti-Farm code 3 bug 4 Is loot scaling account-based over character based? 5 To be clear.

[edit] Are collectibles affected?

Do collectables belong to white items? As in, are they affected? BuGi 12:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Loot Scaling and Anti-Farm code

→ moved from User talk:Gaile Gray

It appears the anti-farm code wasn't removed with the hard mode update, can you check this??--81.49.254.156 14:58, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean. Do you mean that you feel that something went awry when Hard Mode was added for the three campaigns, months ago? (I'd assume you mean that, since GW:EN's Hard Mode is not yet in the game.) There is a lengthy update on the subject here. While we're aware that certain players wish to see the system changed, and a few claim that it's not working properly, in fact we don't see any errors in coding, and the system, as described, is working fine. If I misunderstand your question, please let me know. However, I caution that this is not a medium for debating the subject of loot scaling. However, there is a talk page and it would be perfectly fine to discuss the matter there, of course. --Gaile 15:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

In the Dev Update you said the game no longer prevents players from repeatedly farming the same monsters over and over. But you get less and less drops when you farm the same monsters over and over...--81.49.254.156 16:39, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, as outlined in Bullet Point No. 3 of the "How does loot scaling work?" Paragraph, that can be true, depending on the individual player. Obviously, such a system is intended. Please read the full Dev Update so that you can understand the objectives, the mechanics, and the reasons behind the loot scaling currently in the game. --Gaile 17:15, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

But if you do something the second time you already get way less drops :(--81.49.254.156 17:51, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe what the anonymous is trying to say is that the old anti-farming code (the one that made drops in a zone decrease over time if you repeatedly farmed the same zone), which we were told was removed and replaced with Loot Scaling (see the fourth bullet under Game updates/20070419#Miscellaneous), seems to be still (or back?) in effect. I have no proof for or against this, just trying to explain what (I think) he/she means. - Tanetris 17:58, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Tanetris, I do understand. The fact is, there have been no changes to loot scaling since the Dev Update, and the Dev Update and Hard Mode were both in place months ago. The fact is, for some players, there is a form of "anti-farming" code in place. It affects a small percentage of players, but I think that, due to incomplete reading of the explanation, even those players believe they should not be impacted at all. In other words, claims that the system is not functioning properly seem to come from that small percentage of players who are appropriately impacted by it. I could be mistaken, and certainly I can ask if there has been a change to the system, but I do believe the case here is one of mistaken expectation, not one of a broken system. --Gaile 18:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, then I apologize for my own misunderstanding, but I'm a little confused by your response. Are you saying that there is intentionally still code in place which makes someone who repeatedly farms one area get fewer drops than someone with the same party size who farms the same area once or twice? Even if it only affects an infinitesimally small percentage of players, that seems to go directly against both the Game Update note and the Dev Update... The latter says "the game no longer prevents players from repeatedly farming the same monsters over and over" with no mention of any exceptions. Is there something I'm missing here? - Tanetris 20:12, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I am saying that the Dev Update itself explains both the process and the philosophy, and that if you read it, you will see that obviously there is reference to loot scaling at a very high level of play, dependent on party size, Normal or Hard Mode, and a certain "randomness" that is referenced in the update. Please review the entire Dev Update for the details. --Gaile 22:23, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Gaile, I think those asking are aware that loot scaling has an effect at every level of play, however, I do not believe that is what they were asking about. The update notes that were linked to earlier ( Game updates/20070419#Miscellaneous ) state that "Repeated map entry no longer reduces loot.", however, those posting believe that there's still a trend of getting fewer drops on consecutive farming runs within a short period of time, even though loot scaling specifies that if there are the same number of people in the party (say, 1) each run, there should be an approximately equal probability of getting drops each run - yes, there is a randomness factor, but people seem to be observing trends over time rather than a few individual cases, so there seems to be something odd going on. Simply put, they're asking if there are still decreases over time farmed rather than decreases based on the number of people in the party doing the farming. (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 03:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

"The fact is, for some players, there is a form of "anti-farming" code in place. It affects a small percentage of players, but I think that, due to incomplete reading of the explanation, even those players believe they should not be impacted at all."

Erm, what? There is a code that restricts the drops that a small percentage of people get? So like...1% of the population gets crap for drops? Confused. --Deathwing 03:22, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Please read the Dev Update. As I cited earlier, there is information pertinent to this question, particularly in the paragraph I called out above.

Aiiane, thank you, but yes, I am aware of what players are saying. As you know, I visit the fan forums and the GWW several times a day; trust me when I say I know and understand what some players believe. I think the issue comes from reading only part of the update and not heeding it as a whole. If there's more to the subject, I do not have it to offer at this time, as either information or explanation. If I gain more information on this subject, I will be more than happy to share it. --Gaile 03:33, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Nope, still doesn't make sense. You said that there is actually an anti-farming code for some players, but that is a small percentage? Do you mean this small percentage being the people who farm feeling the effect of loot-scaling? Or do you mean that a small percentage of people still have the anti-farming code in place? --Deathwing 03:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I have to say Gaile, I went back and read the indicated Dev Update through in its entirety (twice), and still don't see any reference to any potential decrease in drops over time rather than with fewer people. I see references to removing the code that previously "prevented players from farming the same mobs repeatedly", which implies that doing so would no longer have penalties, and rather than the only penalties would come from the fact that one was farming them solo rather than in a group. Quite simply, I just don't see how that Dev Update, even read through very carefully, addresses the question put forward here. Perhaps some interpretation is needed if people are not understanding how it applies, because on its own it doesn't seem to. (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 04:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I understand how it was supposed to work. Remove the repetition limit, and add in the loot-scaling. What I was puzzled with was the "fact" that for some people there is a form of "anti-farming" code. Does this mean like certain accounts are marked for bad drops or what? --Deathwing 04:25, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I have to admit i agree with Aiiane on this one. I'm somewhat confused myself. bullet point 3 which you referenced Gaile only relates to party size. Thus that doesn't really answer the question of is their anti-farming code still in operation other than that of the loot-scaling? -- Salome 05:56, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you misunderstand me, or if I expressed myself poorly. Please note this quote, "People who were advanced solo farmers and who were earning vastly more money through solo farming than through playing the game normally will see the full effect of loot scaling. They will earn less gold and common loot from solo farming than they did in the past." It is to those words that I referred. The "some people" are the "advanced solo farmers" cited in those sentences. I did not focus on the "time" part of the question.

If time is the core issue here, than obviously we have been speaking , or writing, at cross purposes, and again, for that I apologize. The initial comment seemed to express concern about what the contributor felt was a discrepancy in the loot scaling system as of Hard Mode introduction in April, yet I didn't know of any errors that crept in with the HM update, and because I expected there would be a discrepancy between the former and existing system, based on that quoted passage on the subject of loot scaling, it was on that that I focused. My point was to explain that the system does have variant before update/after update results for those who are the "advanced solo farmer" types. Now I understand that some players feel that their income drops over time in a party whose size does not change. I don't have any information about that specific aspect but if I am able to learn more, I'll pass it along. --Gaile 06:05, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

How does the „advanced farmer“ recognition routine work? I mean how do you guys filter out the “advanced farmer” from the causal farmer? How do you flag the advanced guy so he will see the full effect of loot scaling? And what if that person lost interested in farming, did not do so for lets say 3 month. How does the routine work on him now? Is he still subject to the “full effect” like he’ll see less drops then average Joe for the remainder of his GW time, or has it been removed since he did not acquire more gold then he should? And how comes if this supposedly affects “advanced farmers” only that by personal experience I do get good rare drops when I clear a GWEN region the first time and then it goes down to purples and blues by going through the same area again? And while speaking of loot scaling: ANet pronounced on may occasions that they want ppl to PUG aka play with humans rather then with bots. So why don’t 8 players get significantly more drops then solo goers or H/H players? I mean that ANet should change the loot to an effect that the more real players are in a group the more gold you get (like: 100-150g for less then 2 ppl, between 150-200g for 2-4 players and 200-300 for 4-8 players (only an example on what I mean)) and the more real players the higher the probability of purple and rare drops for each individual player. So that it REALLY will make a difference to play with real players rather then to H/H their way through GW. Not sure if I make myself clear here I jus think that playing with real ppl should be rewarded by the games loot! Maybe you think it does with the new loot scaling but I see no increase in drops when I go with 4 guildies as opposed to when I go all alone! IMO there should be a lot more drops the more players are in a group. It seemed to work that way right after the new loot scaling was introduced, but with the follow update which exempt rare materials and rare drops it went down hill. Most of the time I have less drops when grouping then when I go with H/H. Is this right for a multiplayer game were the Devs try to encourage grouping? THX for reading ~Garbaron~ ; October 8 2007

I understand your comments, and I will certainly ask QA is there is a possibility that something was tweaked, in error, with that update. I doubt that is the case, but it's worth pursuing. Also, I do want to add one thing: You'll note that heroes and henchmen take their share of the loot. This is designed expressly so that we don't encourage people to H/H over playing with real people. One thing that comes to my mind is the issue of "leeching" in missions and quests. I believe that your team members need to be somewhat proximate to you in order to affect drops (and to get assignment of drops), but in truth I'm not sure about that. If that is not the case, then someone could simply join a party -- even someone using a second account on a different computer -- remain inactive and yet cause the others in the party to receive a larger batch of spoils. That is certainly worth avoiding, and the existing design eliminates the chance of that minor exploitation. --Gaile 16:06, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I have moved this discussion to this page, for my discussion page was crowding 100 KB (again!) and I didn't want to risk allowing the page to become inaccessible or un-editable. I also thought this was a more likely spot for others to be able to join in the discussion. Thanks for understanding, and I'll continue to monitor and respond, as I am able. -- Gaile 21:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi Gaile. I would just like to put my two-cents in as well. I also see a significant drop in the loot whenever I constantly solo (no h/h) a certain map in HM. Although I do question if "missions" are unaffected by the loot-scaling. I tend to farm over at Gate of Nolani and Gates of Kryta and see a significant drop on the gold items after 3 or 5 consecutive solo runs. So are they unaffected or affected by the loot-scaling? Because in order for me to get my drops significantly back up again, I'm forced to change locations/missions ever 2 runs. Renin 03:20, 9 October 2007 (OTC)

Gaile you say the reason why H/Hs take a share of the gold loot is to encourage to play with real ppl. So why is there no change in gold/loot drops when playing with real ppl? Because as is right now it makes NO difference if one H/Hs or Groups with real players. In either case being in a group of 8 (whether be 7 H/H or 7 real players) will get you 1/8 of the gold loot and 1/8 chance to get an item! With the gold loot being the same of about 80-120 gold (depending where you are) players will ALWAYS only get around 10-15 gold regardless of H/H or real players are n the group! But if one goes alone he/she’ll get the whole 80-120 gold! Now YOU tell me how does the H/H/Party gold share encourage grouping if players get LESS gold whenever they add someone (H/H ore real) to their party? This system is NOT working to favour grouping with real players since players individual gold in come is exactly the same. It WOULD work if you do either of this: as suggested above scale gold drop with the amount of real players in the group. For example 2 players get 1.3 times the normal gold drop. 2-4 players get 1.5 times the gold drop, 4-6 players get 1.8 times the gold drop and 8 players get double the amount of the usual gold drop. Or remove the H/H gold share as soon as there is at least one real player in your group (encouraging your favourite buddy gaming!). By this the net in come for each individual player is increased significantly as compared to the gold drop when you go all H/H! Of course this would cause gold farm parties but let me say one thing. If you guys at ANet can indeed filter out ppl who have packs of 250 arm braces in their storage then you can also see players with 999p and XY stacks of 250 ectos at ones storage and by this identify farmers and apply the full “loot scaling” code (besides you could also implement a 0.25 - 0.5 normal gold drop for a lone player) Fact is: 2-8 players gold drops SHOULD be different to the one you get from H/H! Sam goes for general loot (whites/blues) and rare one. The drop rate for these things should go UP with every additional party member too, so that in effect each player gets more loot when grouping. But right now every one of the 8 players gets the same 0.05% drop rate for lets say 10 items and 1/8 of every gold dropped! And then you say the H/H gold share is to discourage H/H? What a joke. ANet must learn to reward player for grouping by increased loot ege scaled to players in the group and then you’ll maybe see an increase of PUGs and grouping again! But as is, there is no difference in playing H/H….oh wait there is… with H/H you’ll have no leavers and idiots that run forward pulling every single red dot on the radar! A lot more beneficial to ones state of mind in a lot of cases. I know the “loot scaling” is supposed to work the way so that ppl get more loot. But as said before: it did seemed to work that way for about 2 days after implementation. Then you exempt some items form loot scaling and drop rates DID go down and there is NO difference in personal gain if you H/H or group with 7 ppl! That is a WRONG game design for an MMO! Players SHOULD get MORE out of an area when they group with others NOT the very same or even less as they do when using H/H!! Why you think ppl solo in the first place? Because it’s more profitable! Shouldn’t it be more profitable to GROUP with ppl? I think it should. But what do I know I just play the game almost every day. Regards ~Garbaron~ ; 9 October 2007

Thanks for the words regarding LootScaling and the ugly rumours regarding Only a handful being flagged as advanced farmers. Is it possible to get some word regarding AOE attacks and the bug that is associated with it? Basically, if you kill lots of stuff at once(or close together) it gives far less loot drops than if killing them one at a time. This has been noticed in solo farming and group killing. It has a HUGE potential to rule out using almost 150 skills based on their ability to kill things very quickly. is this bug intentional or is it something that is being looked into?

I would like to back up that concern. I noticed that as an elementalist, the drops are significantly better when using sliver over aoe fire damage in HM Renin 02:12, 10 October (UTC)

How is it that whenever Gaile moves some topic form her talk page, she rarely to never comes back to response on these topics afterwards? Has the touch of her moving un easy topics so she wont have to bother with them again while always pulling the “limited space” excuse. Regards ~Garbaron; 12 October 2007

There is definitely a significant drop in the loot when solofarming the same places in both NM & HM. 12 October 2007

Lets give her the benefit of the doubt. She has said she was on the road.

As Renin mentioned, the problem with reduced drops when solo farming, isn't so much loot scaling as it is an issue with AoE. Absolutely consistent is the fact that if the enemies die to close together in time, I get maybe a 15-20 percent drop rate, solo farming. However, if I control the AoE so that mobs don't go say below 5-10% health, and pick them off one by one, I get a 60-70% drop rate, in the same area, time after time after time. This is true in normal and hard mode both. The quality of the drops themselves varies widely, but the actual drop rate is quite consistent depending on how you kill the mobs. The AoE also has an effect on things like rep points or SS/LB points, where you won't always get full credit for your kills if the mob members die off too close in time together. Corwin Andros 23:41, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I feel like we have now been ignored seeing that Gaile oft replies to her Gaile Chat/Talk. I just want a direct answer or at least some attention to this issue Renin 00:25, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Gaile posted on a fan site that she had passed our concerns on to the dev team regarding the AoE/RoK (rate of Kill) bug. I had been hoping for a small update but things may be busy so I wont stress too much about it. I hope we can correct this as i hate playing an air ele.

(reset indent) We should add a bug thing to this page. somewhat like this. "BUG (Unconfirmed): Aoe skills causing a high kill rate ( groups dying at the same time) produces a lowered drop rate." -TehBuG-

I solofarm a lot and I have 3 things to say. 1. Anti-farm code is still alive, even in hard mode. 2. Mobs still run out of loot, even in hard mode. 3. People get less loot for killing multiple mobs at the same time with aoe skills (aoe bug). There is more but it would take too much time to explain. 87.189.213.233 12:48, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

i think people are starting to call this the RoK bug (rate of kill) instead of the AoE bug -TehBuG-

[edit] bug

I would like to see some data to back this up, otherwise it is really just speculation. --Lemming 18:25, 25 March 2008 (UTC) Why do we get more golds and event items in Hm at raptor farm then on Nm. They should drop the same isnt it?

gold weapon are dropped more often in HM than NM... Plohek 08:09, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is loot scaling account-based over character based?

Simple question. 118.92.205.143 03:31, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

what are you on about? loot scaling affects the amount of drops based on how many people are in your party. it has no account/character-based property. 71.230.145.170 21:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm a newbie to the whole system but perhaps he is talking about the anti-farm code? If the penalties affect a particular character only or all characters of that account. - Decollete 17:06, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] To be clear.

My understanding of the situation is this:

• Parties receive more loot when there are more people in the parties, but only within drop range.
• Farming areas repeatedly no longer reduces drop rate, except in the case of certain flagged individuals, who are impacted by both the previous and the current system.
• The system does not distinguish between human and Hero/Henchman party members.

If this is the case... the it would seem to me that the best looting would come from a party of one human and 7 H/H, because (1) more items will drop, (2) the heroes and henchmen will not collect these items; they will all be assigned to the player, and (3) the party will be able to kill faster, thus allowing the human player to collect non-scaling items in a shorter time period. This would seem more profitable, except in the case of gold farming, if I'm understanding the system correctly. Someone, please, correct me if I'm wrong. Raine - talk 20:52, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the H/H count as party members, except the percentage that drops for them disappears, so theoretically there are more items dropping just you wont see them as the others 'pick them up', that's a lie, but it's a good lie as its based in truth. --Whisperwind 16:20, 1 November 2008 (UTC)