User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Underpowered Skills/Elementalist

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[edit] Air Magic

[edit] Chain Lightning

To be honest, I think Chain Lightning was really the true "PvP AoE" in terms of effectiveness - it was nerfed early down the line given rampant HA abuse, but I almost wonder if it'd be worth bringing back now to its previous state given the way the game has evolved. (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 20:43, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Make it hit 5 targets! :D --TimeToGetIntense 20:53, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

There's no reason why Chain Lightning shouldn't have a 2 second cast, but the damage should stay where it was. Spiking three people at once (Invoke) is still pretty nasty. -Ensign 23:26, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

That's more what I was referring to, in regards to the cast time. It might be interesting, however, if it were tweaked such that the damage scales downwards for each jump after the first, and potentially remove the exhaustion. That's the real limiting factor to it at the moment, I'd say - since it's less useful as a spike tool, and the exhaustion prevents it from really being a DPS tool, it's not utilized currently.

(Aiiane - talk - contribs) 23:34, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Chain Lightning would have to be changed to hit more targets more often for a little less damage to really be able to force people out of Wards I think. --TimeToGetIntense 00:22, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

10...58...70, reduce recharge to 6 seconds, eliminate exhaustion, and deal 75% damage to second target and 50% damage to third target? (Edit: and possibly a 4th target for 25% damage?)

(Aiiane - talk - contribs) 00:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd love to see Chain Lightning actually become a viable AOE alternative for air, and i think reduced damage to secondary targets is a good way to do it (isn't it the way Chain Lightning works in every other game too?). Now that Invoke is there to have the elite option of what CL used to be, a Chain Lightning of something like 10/2/7, no exhaustion, with damage like you Aiiane said, would be an interesting skill on your bar. Would give air a little better pressure option. Patccmoi 00:56, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

imo is exhaustion the biggest problem, I would like to see 5 sec longer recharge but no exhaustion --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:80.133.72.86 .

That'd make it too close to Invoke Lightning. –Ichigo724 12:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

maybe, however right know its only usable every ~30 seconds

(reset indent) I think all agree that this skill is a bit on the weak side by now. The days of "air supremacy" are long ago, and Searing Flames beats Chain Lightning spikes easily. 3 seconds is too much. Not even most necro spells take so long to cast. 2 is already enough to prevent abuse and still long enough for an interrupt. If nothing should be changed, at least the cast time should be reduced to two seconds. --Longasc 22:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC) Chain Lightning... I remember what it ruled supreme (it used to have the exact same stats as Invoke lightning except it was in the AREA). Anyway, I think this skill should be changed to give it more use. Target foe and up to two other foes near your target are struck for 5...41...50 lightning damage. This Spell has 25% armor penetration. Change the damage to lightning strike level, remove the exhaustion, decrease the recharge slightly (8s?). Makes it a little nicer at least. Maestro Ed 00:26, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I see no reason why this skill should't have 2 seconds cast time.

Given Air has so few decent damage skills, and since this skill is so similar to Deathly Swarm except for being weaker in damage and causing unnecessary exhaustion with a far to long recharge, I think if you simply removed the Exhaustion and Armor Penetration you could drop it down to a 10 - 2 - 5 or even a 10 - 3 - 3 like Deathly Swarm only with a little less damage than Deathly Swarm, but it would still make the skill appealing for use in both PvP and PvE. That way you can leave the Elite version just the way it is, with no need to change it, as it would still have greater damage and bonuses compared to this skill. ~

J.Kougar 22:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Deadly Swarm has 5 more damage........ and doesn't have 25% armor penetration, which is far more damage. Beside that, Deadly Swarm is a slow release spell. I don't agree with the cost here, exhaustion is way to expensive, but I think exhaustion needs looking at.--BahamutKaiser 03:22, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

...and like I said, if the penetration was removed to balance the damage then the exhaustion could be removed too, and the spell would be useful. :) ~

J.Kougar 03:57, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Elementist lightning skills are naturally armor penetrating, it shouldn't change just so we can duck exhaustion.--BahamutKaiser 04:32, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

"Hold on I'm casting Chain Lightning.. damn I got interrupted now I'm suffering from exhaustion." I really think cast time should be reduced on this. 87.189.249.97 16:56, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Castingtime is way to long for a lot of direct damage spells, especially in the lightning branch. Actually i would go so far as to be interested in how it plays out when castingtimes of all direct damage spells get halved, rounded up. So 1->1, 2->1, 3->2... That way spell damage would still have much more energy and recast issues than melee damage but at least it would do more damage too. Would be interesting to see if that would be enough to get rid of the current melee dmg vs passive block meta. Beetlejuice 14:05, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

If you presume 25% armor penetration, 60 armor target 106 damage is around 130-140 or so damage on 3 targets in nearby range. This becomes more likely now that cracked armor comes into play (min armor 60). Then you look at Rodgort's Invocation...which needs 25 energy. Chain lightning needs restrictions like exhaustion to keep Invoke and Lightning Hammer (25 energy) from being underpowered, seeing how it's in a single target damage line. However, 3 second cast makes it unplayable in PvP since a monkey with a Longbow could interrupt that. At most it could use a bump back down to 2 cast time.--Life Infusion «T» 01:18, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gale

This skill used to be amazing, then a couple of nerfs hit it and it sank to horrible. My advice is to make a balance by increasing the recharge to 10 seconds and make the KD 3 seconds again. That way, its not overpowered, it cant be spammed as easily, and if you do try to spam it you still have exhaustion to deal with.--John deathblade 20:19, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Then what happens to Gust?

20:23, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

It remains crap like it already is. --Deathwing 20:46, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Unfortinately Deathwing is right. Gust is horrible atm and unless a serious change happens to it then it wont become any better. Buffing gale wont hurt gust much at this point.--John deathblade 20:56, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

The more I look at the post-Gale meta, the more I miss the 3 second Gale. It really was a cornerstone of high-level balance whose utility increased with player skill. I think that a 3 second Gale, on a 15 second or similar recharge, would do a lot of good things for the game. -Ensign 10:11, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I never understood why the KD time was nerfed instead of just increasing the recharge. --Draikin 17:26, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

A lower recharge allows Gale to be used more often in utility situations where an offensive/defensive opportunity exists such that if you cast Gale another time, you could get/prevent a kill. Or, in the case when it was 5e, 5r, it could be spammed as a lockdown skill. With reduction of kd length you can still use it defensively but offensive power has been reduced a huge amount. Gale causes exhaustion so if you use it too much within some time frame you're going to be suffering from an inability to cast effectively during later. The game has been depreciating in player ability-linked skills since the onset of Nightfall. I also don't really see why Gale was reduced to a 2s kd other than the fact that "only warriors should get kds longer than 2s," which would also undermine Gust. But that doesn't matter, since Gust is never used. --Miranzor 19:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I felt Izzy overdid it when he made it 2s kd. Simply reverting it to 5e won't work either, since Warriors will start abusing it again with Stonefist Insignia. So maybe just make it 5e cost, cause Exhaustion, same recharge, same casting time, maximum kd time of 2 seconds. Saph 16:29, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The KD time of 2s is what is being discussed here. The one second matters so much that it's not even funny. Take Backbreaker as an example here: if you ask a warrior how long it KDs, they'll say "four seconds." Ask a monk how long Backbreaker KDs, and you get a different answer: "I'm dead." Ask the same monk how long Devastating Hammer is and you get "three seconds." That one second feels like five years because you can't do ANYTHING; you're removed from the game. If you're a warrior, Gale means you missed the spike, but if you're a monk, somebody just died. A three second Gale is huge 50% more shutdown/snare than a two second Gale. Backbreaker is "only" 33% more than DHammer but that 33% extra shutdown leaves a lot of monks dead. The 10e cost and 1s cast time are balanced such that you can't Gale 1s spells through reflex and warriors have limited use for 10e skills. The kd time is the focus here and people see lengthening the cooldown as a variable to achieve the means of a longer KD which would allow Gale to return to its offensively devastating state.--Miranzor 18:02, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Imo a 3 second knockdown with a 12 second recharge is the solution. -Void 15:15, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

There's really no reason to have such a powerful KD with such low spec to it. I don't see the skill required or displayed by completely shutting down a character for 3 seconds. Also, an important function of gale is its ability to interrupt things and snare lock things. As such, the only thing I'd suggest is a 3/4 sec. cast, but other than that, I think gale is perfectly balanced. Learn to shut down chars in ways other than KDs. KDs are completely debilitating and require less skill than say, a well placed diversion, etc.

Though Diversion isn't even half as good as the old Gale was, i wouldn't mind if Gale stays at 2 seconds; it's still an okay skill. But Izzy should at least change the description to "Target foe is knocked down." -Void 12:12, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

It's still an ok skill as a 2s knockdown; it isn't like Air is forcing any hard choices on us with a bunch of amazing skills to choose from so you might as well take it. A 3s knockdown has so much more utility than a 2s knockdown though that it's barely even comparable, especially when this has a 1s cast that keeps you from gaining any sort of time advantage on your target. The problem with the old Gale was the conflict between 'exhaustion skills want low recharges' and 'knockdown skills want long recharges' - the former won out when the latter should. If it were to go back to a 3s knockdown the req could easily go up a bit so that it wouldn't be such a trivial splash. -Ensign 00:41, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Req 8 or even 7 would definetly keep it off Mesmers. If I recall a big problem was Gale -> Blackout -> Gale, right? Just to throw this out there, would removing aftercast from this spell fix the time advantage issue? --TimeToGetIntense 01:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

No. The big problem was Gale-lock, and a mesmers uncanny ability to spam b-surge. Readem Promote My Ban Here 06:10, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Is someone having a problem with this skill? Because a ranged knockdown seems like a useful skill to me, sounds like an issue of withdraws, not imbalance.--BahamutKaiser 21:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

How about have the KD duration scale like 2...2...3 so it hits 3 seconds at 13 Air Magic? --TimeToGetIntense 10:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd like it to be 10e .25s 8r so I can use it as an interrupt in a pinch. But a 3sec KD is cool too. --Symbol 01:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I miss Gale's 3 second KD too, but chaining it was FAR too easy. Two players could easiy chain gale a target. There are ways to bring it back but NOT have it chain.

Gale (hex spell). 10 energy, 1 cast time, 5 recharge. If target foe is not hexed with gale, target foe is knocked down for 3 seconds. For 4 seconds target foe is hexed with Gale. This spell causes Exhaustion. (50% failure chance with Air Magic 4 or less.)

Would that work? Gives back 3 second Gale, still fast recharge, but can't be chained. --Epinephrine 21:55, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Or Gust's current status could be swapped: 3 seconds knockdown and conditional damage, instead of damage and conditional knockdown like it is now. An elite version of gale seems more appropiate to me. Gale as it is now is already easy to use, 3 seconds is a little over the top for an easy to use, ranged, non-elite if you ask me...but nobody does, so I'll just shut up now. Nicky Silverstar 22:57, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the idea of an 8 second recharge Gale with a 3 second KD is good. This makes it impossible to lock someone with 2 people. You could chain it for 6 seconds at a time, but you'd always have that gap. --TimeToGetIntense 12:17, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Windborne Speed

Compared to the hands-down favorite Storm Djinn's Haste, Windborne Speed seems... really lame. Storm Djinns lasts twice as long, casts instantly, takes half as much energy, and the drawback isn't really a concern. Windborne's only "saving grace", as it were, is the ability to target someone else with it; but seeing as a flagger would rarely target anyone but himself with it, that saving grace amounts to nothing. Any way to bring windborne speed back into the game?
I'm thinking 5e/1.4c/10r for windborne, but keep the duration shorter to account for the ability to target others with it. It still might not replace storm djinns on runner bars because of length, but it'd provide a decent alternative if someone didn't like the -1e per second. -Auron 04:14, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll assume you mean 1/4c instead of 1.4c. :P But if you ask me, the target ally thing isn't enough to completely justify the current duration; perhaps 5..13..15? (The value for 12 can be messed with all you want, I really prefer the 0..15 way of stating things...) Armond 14:13, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps this could be booster to 50%? Only two other skills give that kind of boost, and the energy cost and duration of this skill might suit that big speed increase. Maestro Ed 13:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

This is an ok skill, leave it. 50% faster that can effect other allies with tTHAT duration? What are you on? --72.74.237.104 05:16, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd give it a 2 second duration buff to duration. Even with such a buff, this will rarely see use as people favor easier to use/longer lasting skills. --Tensei 14:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Windborne would actually be a great utility to fit on BSurgers with more interesting stats. 10E is fine for the effect, the main thing you'd want here is faster cast and slightly longer duration. 10/.75/5, 6..12 duration would be really better. Seriously we used it before on warriors and it's pretty threatening. A warrior in Frenzy running at 33% faster speed is really scary Patccmoi 15:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Slightly shorter cast time would work wonders and so would a longer duration. --TimeToGetIntense 01:44, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Thirds on low cast time and higher duration.--BahamutKaiser 00:43, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Another option. "For 7...17 seconds, target ally and all allies adjacent to your target move 33% faster. If more than one ally is affected, the duration of this enchantment is reduced by 20%." --Reklaw 23:39, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed on longer duration and quicker cast time. --Rururrur 06:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

When you look at Hasty Refrain (which gives energy return and can be reapplied), Fall Back, Make Haste it is clear that Windborne needs a buff (especially since unlike shouts it is removable. --Life Infusion «T» 20:50, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

10e 1/4c 1r, decrease duration imo Cakey 00:57, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

definitely needs shorter cast time. 1/4second would be nice.--Life Infusion «T» 01:27, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Arc Lightning

It's still underpowered. Sure, it's technically superior to Lightning Strike because it does more for only a second longer recharge, but it's worse in the end. It forces you to tinker with attribute points and skill slots to make that Water Magic hex condition work. I just had an idea. Instead of having it hit a random nearby foe for more damage, just make it bounce to an adjacent foe each time it hits a foe that is suffering from a Water Magic hex? The recharge can then be upped, and maybe people might use Air Magic and Water Magic in PvE more. --Heelz 05:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem really isn't the Water Magic Hex conditional by itself, it's the conditional of the AoE that puts it over the top. Most of the time even if you satisfy the hex condition, there's nobody around so it's still just a bad copy of Lightning Strike. If it always had an additional effect on the target, I might consider it. For example: "If target foe is suffering from a Water Magic Hex, that foe and all nearby foes are struck for an additional 5..35 lightning damage" --Mysterial 01:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

This is a weaker version of Lightning Strike with a klunky condition. Lightning Strike is bad. What else is there to say? -Ensign 22:32, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

In order for dual elemental skills like this to be played you must compensate people for having to take attributes points off air magic (less damage) to put it into water magic. I suggest increasing unconditional and conditional damage across all attributes. ATM there is no incentive for people to take this skill compared to putting all attributes into air to do more heavy damage with direct unconditional attacks. --Shadetz X 10:00, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

suggestion: change "suffering from a Water Magic Hex" to "suffering from a Hex" 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I like the last suggestion, another would be for the conditional damage to be major, like up to 100 damage, the target gets zipped, but doing it under the condition causes a random bang.--BahamutKaiser 00:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Until this looks like a conditional version of Chain Lightning (with the damage) it's just not going to be attractive. Hell, up the cost to 10e if you like and make the Chain Lighting class 3 digit damage as conditional as the 'strikes up to 2 additional foes'. It would still be far better. Dual spec Air guys with choice hexes like Freezing Gust, Blurred, or even Icy Shackles would be attractive then. In fact more tools like this that are really strong when going Dual spec would encourage more of this type of play in general. The current options are just too weak. Fro 20:28, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

what's stopping them from making this an actual ARC? (up to 3 adjacent foes ala splinter weapon)...dual speccing should stop this from being overpowered for the most part and conditional 40-60 damage in adjacent range isn't even good.--Life Infusion «T» 01:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lightning Surge

Can we have some armour penetration here please? --Ckal Ktak 11:21, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

A knockdown skill that recharges in 10 seconds without exhaustion that can deal around 100 damage is not underpowered. --Shadetz X 02:45, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

It's removable if your monk has any sort of reflexes and it's not at all time-able for interrupting something. Organizing a spike around it would also be obvious as the defender has two seconds to hit PS/SB/Return/Dark Escape/SoD/Escape/Weapon of Warding/Natural Stride/etc. Not worth 15 energy either imo, at least for the time being. Can we get a one second cast or one second duration?

|GD Defender / contribs 06:45, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

A monk isn't going to waste a hex removal on this, it is easier to just heal afterwards. --Deathwing 15:28, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm using Spirit Bond on myself! Saph 15:35, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

What about making it deal damage even if it's ended prematurely? -- Gordon Ecker 19:34, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

'Elite Hex Spell. After 3 seconds, target foe is knocked down and struck for 14...83...100 lightning damage. If this hex ends prematurely, that foe is knocked down.' Something like that? Meh, still seems useless. Saph 20:09, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

It's hardly worth removing, just cast a preprot. --Deathwing 19:40, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Not underpowered, end of story. --68.106.221.5 20:13, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

... thanks for that useless comment. People don't run this for a reason: its uselessness. And as it is, Shatterstone outclasses this skill. If I could pick between 200-280 damage, and 80-100 damage + a kd, I know what to pick, especially when the first option also has utility in its attribute line. Saph 21:45, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I laughed at saying Air Magic doesn't have utility. --Deathwing 12:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Blinding Flash would be too energy heavy on a bar that already has Lsurge. Bsurge is an elite too, no go. Enervating Charge? Hah, weaken your opponents for 3 seconds (and it doesn't even stop armor ignoring damage). Maybe Shellshock could change it a bit, but still... Maybe I should rephrase: Water Magic > Air Magic, if you're using Lightning Surge on your destined-to-fail bar. Saph 19:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Mind Shock is much stronger at doing the same thing. Not a big deal though, doesn't need a buff. --TimeToGetIntense 20:36, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

All I wanted was the armour penetration that seemed to have been missed from this skill. --Ckal Ktak 12:07, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, the original remark was simple, armor penetration belongs on this, otherwise it is a Rit spell.--BahamutKaiser 00:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that would be ok, maybe lower the damage a bit to compensate if it would be overpowered otherwise. Nicky Silverstar 07:57, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Not for an Elite hex which can be removed and do no damage.--BahamutKaiser 03:47, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

25% armor penetration please --Rururrur 06:03, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem isn't a lack of power on the skill, it's just the obvious delay on activation. Make the damage happen before the Hex takes effect makes it a nice enough spike support skill. Akirai Annuvil 15:37, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Shatterstone > Lightning Surge, Statterstone will also trigger the second hit even if removed ,this one needs 25% armor pent <_< - Bah forgot to log in >_> Aljazya 13:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC) 13:15, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Unconditional Knockdown is pretty powerful...while I think armor penetration belongs on this, I'd say a damage nerf should be applied as well if it is given armor penetration. a 15-25% damage reduction would be good to balance the 25% armor penetration. (such as 12...71...85 damage instead of 14...83...100 at 15% reduction or 11...62...75) --Life Infusion «T» 01:29, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

How about 75% armor penetraiton? THAT woulşd make it a game breaker :D 85.107.161.108 20:51, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

It is not an unconditional knockdown. If it is removed, it does nothing. Maybe LS, then Gale would be something that would work.

[edit] Glimmering Mark

Hmm..."For 1...13...16 seconds, whenever target foe suffers lightning damage, that foe and all adjacent foes suffer from Blindness for 5 seconds. (10 Energy, 2 Activation time, 5 Recharge time)". That doesn't seem elementalist like because the effect happens to be conditional on lightning damage. By the time this goes off, you're either A. d-shotted, B. power leaked C. disrupting chop-ed/agonizing chop-ed/distracting strike-d since in those 2 seconds they ran up to you and are in your face. This has a weakness of being removed by hex removal as well. Maybe: "Elite Hex spell: Target foe and all adjacent foes suffer from Blindness for 3...9...10 seconds. For 15 seconds, target foe takes 25...45...50% more Lightning damage. (10 Energy, 1 Activation time, 5 Recharge time)" This would make it more active, a damage buff akin to asuran scan, and less d-shot bait. In essence, it is a non-conditional Blinding Surge with no damage. Alternately, the functionality could be tweaked more conservatively ..."Target foe is blinded for 1...4...5 seconds. For 1...13...16 seconds, whenever target foe suffers lightning damage, that foe and all adjacent foes suffer from Blindness for 1...4...5 seconds. (10 Energy, 2 Activation time, 5 Recharge time)". Basically a mini-Blinding Flash added to the current functionality to account for the 2 activation time and time to cast another spell or wand the target. --Life Infusion «T» 18:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thunderclap

broken mechanic. Maybe "Hex. Target foe and all adjacent foes are struck for 10...50...60 lightning damage and hexed with Thunderclap for 8...18...20 seconds. While under the effects of this hex, they cannot use shouts or chants. This skill has 25% armor penetration. 10energy/1cast/8recharge" --Life Infusion «T» 17:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Most definitely not. We don't need another worthless anti-shout skill, and making it work in that fashion would be even worse than the current method. This skill works fine as it is, it's just not terribly efficient. --Reklaw 23:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

It does not work fine as it is. It needs to not cause energy loss if the foe isn't knocked down, nor knock him down if he's already knocked down. -- Armond Warblade

09:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

You correct that by using your skills (or weapon) to cause shock damage to your target at regular enough intervals to cause the KD while losing minimal energy. You'll notice RA players sometimes using a shocking shortbow to do this. It basically will keep a monk on the ground for a good 10 seconds, although it doesn't actually cause any real damage. It's just incredibly annoying. Thunderclap is just a bad skill. If you buffed it, it would be massively imbalanced. The only thing you can do to it is change its functionality. --Reklaw 23:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lightning Orb

This is just ridiculous.Lightning Orb = 100dmg, 25%AP, but Fireball = 126dmg + AoE. I think that this needs a buff 2 give it AoE, then it wouldn't b underpowered 2 fire magic.--Sum Mesmer Guy 09:22, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Earth Magic

[edit] Ward Against Harm/ Ward Against Elements

Seems like I'm the only one who was mad about the armor stacking nerf for these skills in particular. You really killed what life these skills even had. I used to stack these two skill and bring Greater Conflagration on a hero in hard mode for high damage reduction, which would be great if heroes learned to stay in wards. These skills were already weak, but at least they could be used this way, now they can't. Ward Against Harm is already pretty weak and forgotten. It needs a change to make it more useful and worthy of elite status. I suggest converting the armor into the equivalent percent damage reduction. That way it can still be stacked with WAE, which then wouldn't need to be changed. Plus, it might then work against armor ignoring damage and damage from attack skills. In any case, I think you know, Izzy, that you guys have forgotten about these skills and that they need help. =P --Heelz 22:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe turn them into damage reduction instead of armour? Maestro Ed 15:25, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Couple of words here that should never be in balance discussions: hard mode, hero, and possibly greater conflagration. --72.211.155.160 20:53, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, because as long as skills never work in PvP, then they are balanced, who cares if they work in PvE. --Deathwing 21:04, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I think +armor is more desirable vs elemental damage. The elemental damage you care about comes in large packets. If you wanted a different method you would have to reduce elemental damage by a percent. Also why is ward against elements 15e? It is weaker than ward against melee. -Warskull 03:52, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Both of these could benefit from a reduction in cost to 5 energy. It would be more of a "look at me" change, but a welcome one.--Skye Marin 15:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Because widespread armor is pretty prevalent, and Elemental Damage should be more powerful, both need some redevelopement. Ward Against Harm could be changed to offer the same universal armor, and reduce Fire Damage by 75%, wile Ward Against Elements should reduce elemental damage by 20 damage. This would make both very effective at blocking out DoT damage especially, and they could be stacked.

I really think these are very important skills in the redevelopement of AoE and DoT damage. I think the begining of rectifying many flaws in gameplay tactics revolve around having good AoE spread and frequency in order to force location control and positioning into greater significance, and oppose Paragon shouts, chants and Leadership advantages so both can compete with eachother instead of suppress themselves. Being able to defend yourself against AoE and particularly DoT damage with Ward Against Elements and Ward Against Harm are a signicant part of balancing that.--BahamutKaiser 22:33, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Personally I believe all AoE really grants you is time. Anyone not a Stand Your Ground! Paragon is going to move out of the AoE. While they move, they can't do anything. It's essentially another way of looking at the area control you mention. However the time casting the thing and the down-time, don't add up to the window of opportunity you get by forcing people to move.

Sure you can potentially catch and force more than one target to move improving the pay-off exponentially, but this is rare enough of an occurrence to right it off (especially at adjacent range). To add insult to injury, The damage dealt will probably just get dealt with by the next LoD, if you even manage to get the 2 second cast off in the first place... Fro 19:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Well this is about the defensive wards that should be developed to counteract good DoT damage and elemental AoE. If these are developed to prevent and greatly reduce AoE damage, they can be used to counteract the power of DoT spells once they are improved. DoT spells like FireStorm and Breath of Fire, really all of them need nearly back to back use, and nearby to area effect damage. This forces people to give up their location, spread apart, lose time moving around. Done well, it can offer what is basically a Ward which does damage, an unremovable spray of damage over a location.

DoTs and AoE superiority have the power to make Paragon group survival a risky tactic as well as a benifit, it allows both to counteract eachother in damage. It also provides opposition to large group heals like LoD, with heavy DoT spread on several units, group healing will become a stronger neccessity and not an indiscriminate advantage. It pushes players to bring strong group support skills to face an equal amount of AoE preasure, or move around and counter Elementist to ensure they do not decimate a whole group.

The important thing here is that a good elemental AoE and DoT counter needs to be effective enough to offer haven from these effects, that way even if a party is using highly defensive techniques, they are relying on a mix of defensive skills from several professions instead of relying simply on Watch Yourself and Stand Your Ground to simply ride out a DoT for 5 or 10 seconds on the 1-3 people who are actually caught in it. With reduced elemental damage offered from Ward Against Elements, a combination of WAE and additional armor or any number of armor boosts can completely counteract DoT, wile exclusion of any group defense skills will make it very difficult to advance into that kind of preasure.

If a player prepares for elemental damage with Ward Against Elements, it should not be something that is totally eclipsed by WY or SYG, or any other group defensive abilities, 20 damage reduction ensures anything under 40 in elemental damage is probably going to be wiped out or make little impact on most targets, and allows DoT application, and promotes the acceptance of higher DoT output in response.--BahamutKaiser 20:53, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

You see, why bother slotting things like this if you can just move? The only environment I can see these wards being good to take is if AoE DoT effectiveness explodes like physical damage has done over the life of Guild Wars (which is eluded to by the guys on Guru as generally the cause of the 'Blockway' and VoD sensation). If this happens it will probably be detrimental to the game.

Besides, these wards will never be as good as those chants/shouts as they are counter-intuitive to this task in their basic design. Wards force you to remain inside them to be effective. AoE DoT wants you to do the same so it can be fully effective also.Fro 22:35, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I find Ward Against Harm to be quite effective against the Meteor Shower spike that the heroes+hench like to stand in in the Charr Homeland. --Deathwing 22:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It's very powerful, againt fire damage, it just isn't as powerful as it used to be, and more importantly, it doesnt stack with Ward Against Elements or any other armor ability. Really, it's just Ward Against Elements that needs the change, if ward against harm doesn't change it will probably be fine, but having armor vs elements only which doesn't stack with easier abilities like armor against everything which sticks to allies instead of on a location, it's supremely outclassed. With the current armor cap, bringing ward against elements is truely worthless, damage reduction would make a more effective impact.--BahamutKaiser 03:02, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Needs a flat % reduction like They're On Fire or There's Nothing to Fear. Unlike those, wards are locational.--Life Infusion «T» 00:52, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Ward against elements: 10e/1/4s/30+r For 3 seconds everyone inside the ward is immune against elemental damage/takes only 10% of their max life as damage. Basically turn it into an alternative to PS against elemental damage.

Whose retarded idea was it to make this elite anti-fire anyway? You'd have to have a ranger bringing Greater Conflag just to make use of it.

"Elite Ward Spell. Create a Ward Against Harm at this location. For 8...18...20 seconds, non-Spirit allies in this area have 12...50...60 armor againt elemental damage and have a 1...12...16% chance to block physical attacks."

The main problem with this skill, aside from the asinine idea of it being a solution to Searing Flames, is that it's only an armor skill. Aegis is about five times more effective than this waste of a skill slot. --Reklaw 22:23, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stone Striker

Apart from Elementalists and Rangers, no class has innate high armor to Earth damage. In the same attribute line you have Armor of earth and speccing into water gives you access to frigid armor + access to Conjure Frost. I guess you could use this with Ebon Dust Aura but why invest so much in earth magic (9+ to maintain) unless you want to change your (spell) damage to earth damage. It doesn't help as a cover enchantment either since it is 20 recharge. In other words, it would be nice to have a mantra-level of duration (30...78...90 ) so you don't need to put so much in just to change your damage to earth damage, since earth elementalists aren't going to be the ones wanting to convert their damage to earth damage. ANother possibility is lowering the recharge to 5 or 10. --Life Infusion «T» 00:38, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Most of this sounds very sensible, but I prefer Stone Sheath being altered first. At least this skill has SOME uses, Stone Sheath has none. Nicky Silverstar 09:00, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

This is mostly used for farming right now (with Mantra of Earth)...which is gimmick at best. The other thing it is useful for is Ring of Fire and against Charr/Destroyers when Fire damage is horrible. Maybe for +20 armor against physical if you're wearing Geomancer's insignias as well. Really though, it has so much potential as a cover enchantment due to 1/4 cast time (ala Mystic Regen) but it needs lower recharge (5-10seconds). Armor of Earth isn't viable in PvP simply because of the speed debuff and likewise I fail to see why you would spec that high in Earth in PvP for stone striker to be maintainable. The only times I see earth in PvP is when people run Wards on 8-9 spec (seldom now due to Ward against melee being 15 energy and armor stack nerf) or when they are running sandstorm (prenerf) or obsidian flesh gimmicks (AB/RA/TA). --Life Infusion «T» 01:04, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

What is so bad about gimmicks? As a matter of fact, why is every build that specializes in Earth Magic gimmicky? Just because it is not a metagame build? Nicky Silverstar 08:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Gimmicks allow players with little skill to beat most other players. That should never happen. Not every Earth Magic build is gimmicky, just the "good" ones (which I say hesitantly, because gimmicks are generally beaten by good players with utility) because the rest of the line sucks. -- Armond Warblade

08:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your explanation. Nicky Silverstar 12:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ash Blast

The damage is decent, but the conditional blind is too conditional. Knockdown status is something very costly in GW. Using it just to apply a blind is way not worth it. This skill need more than just number changing to bring it out of the useless zone. Lightblade 06:27, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

My opnion is: I think I would bring it if it did reasonable damage to Warriors, so blindness while knocked down could be viewed as a bonus instead of a must have or the skill is wasted effect. As with Glowstone, Ebon Hawk and Stoning, it does mediocore damage (actually, little damage against the targets they were meant to be used against) and is only be worth the effort if the blindness gets applied. If it needs it's condition applied to be useful, then it simply isn't worth it. Making it armor ignoring however, would certainly fix it, because then it would be worth using on a warrior, wheter he gets blinded or not. Nicky Silverstar 10:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Armor ignoring would be nice...considering hard mode means the warrior and ranger mobs that are level 28-30 take about 1/3 or 1/2 of normal damage. --Life Infusion «T» 18:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Crystal Wave Teinai's Crystals

A part of me thinks that these skills were to discourage people from PUGing. Basically it is bulk condition removal for the enemy team. A removal of the condition removal would be nice. Then again who uses PBAOEs...? (Balthazar's Rage/Zealous Renewal/etc. are cheaper for armor ignoring damage)--Life Infusion «T» 18:26, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Iron Mist

This is probably the worst skill for earth elementalists. Except for degen, life steal, lightning damage, everything is negated. Mind you, this is in the earth magic line so you'd be investing in an attribute and then not be able to use any of the skills to do damage. It could probably be changed to something like "For 3...13...15 seconds, target foe moves 50% slower and takes 10 damage per second while moving if under an elementalist hex. (10 energy, 2 cast...interrupt bait, 30 recharge)" I'd reserve 90% slower to Water magic. I thought about saying 33% but Siphon speed is already got 33% covered and 50% is generally for earth magic (Grasping earth, ward against foes...even Obsidian flesh or armor of earth on 0 earth magic). --Life Infusion «T» 18:26, 2 February 2008 (UTC) --Life Infusion «T» 18:26, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Or maybe give earth magic a reliable weakness inducer: "For 3....8..13 seconds target moves 15% slower and suffers from weakness for 3...8..13 seconds. (5 energy,1 cast, 6 recharge)" Basically an elementalist sum of all fears. --Life Infusion «T» 18:33, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

You're wrong, Stone Sheath is the worst skill for Earth Elementalists. If that skill would be altered to cause weakness a la Enervating Charge, it would never leave my skill bar. But apperantly, the skill does something important so it cannot be changed. This however...can actually be used for omething, if your team prepares for it. Or you could use it to snare something you're not going to attack yet. I agree that Earth has some very impractical skills though, and this is not exception. Nicky Silverstar 07:59, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Energy Storage

[edit] Energy Boon

I don't see any reason why an elementalist will take these elites over other elite and non-elite energy management skills, especially Glyth of Lesser Energy. --Shadetz X 07:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you about Energy Boon. As for Glyph of Energy, it's already being discussed higher up on the page. -- Gordon Ecker 09:24, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Since Glyth of Energy is already posted I will take it off.--Shadetz X 09:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

exhaustion makes too many skills completely useless. 80.133.77.143 21 August 2007 (UTC)

15 energy at the cost of exhaustion, that's stupid, lose 10 energy for 4 times as long for 15 energy, don't worry about the 15 second recharge, you will sabatoge your energy pool fast enough. It would have to give back 30 energy for me to deal with exhaustion, the whole exhaustion deal needs to be redeveloped, all the skills which it influence are overcharged.--BahamutKaiser 23:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that if the exhaustion was removed, and then maybe the recharge was raised to 20 seconds, it would be way more balanced that it is now. The exhaustion completely kills a skill that isn't overpowered even without it. Nicky Silverstar 08:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

This skill is just bad. In fact it is so bad it is worse than nonelite options. Elite energy management is bad unless it does something spectacular (ala Mind Blast's +5 energy every 2 seconds with no enchantment reliance or ele attune's 50% reduction in all elementalist spells). There's no reason to spec energy storage that high to get more than around 18 energy from this skill (net of ~13 energy)... Let's say that you spam this skill on recharge, that's 10 exhaustion every 15 seconds... that's almost as bad as spamming Obsidian Flame. Keep in mind exhaustion expires in 30 seconds meaning this nets you a permanent exhaustion if you use it on recharge. It needs the exhaustion removed and then it might hold a candle to Offering of Spirit (which is in a line that is actually useful). A typical elementalist will gain ~17-18 energy every 15 seconds then which is inline with Glyph of Lesser Energy on 15+ energy skills or Power Drain (+8 on 8 inspiration) /Leech Signet () with a decent inspiration Magic.--Life Infusion «T» 20:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Master of Magic

Bad for a number of reasons: it can't be maintained (25 seconds duration would remedy this since you can bring an enchanting mod). It counts skills, which means Res sig and NONSPELLS (non-magic) trigger it. I thought the name was Master of Magic, not Master of long recharging non-spell skills. Another problem is the flat energy gain. It promotes 5 energy skill spam (example: MoM smiters back in the day) and odd attribute splits. It's bugged as well since apparently PvE skills count as nonlinked. I think a worthwhile adjustment would be to count only spells (why signets count I have no idea) for recharging skills. --Life Infusion «T» 21:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I just did some calculations...Ele attunement beats this so bad once you use anything more than 10 energy and since they are both enchantments there's no reason to run Master of Magic instead. For Master of Magic to be worthwhile you basically need a full bar of 5-10 energy skills (kind of hard on an elementalist) with 2 skills that have long recharges (one will be master of magic since I doubt you will be killing this with energy storage's energy blast) since at 12 energy storage (which is laughable) you get 2 energy return per skill recharging and you need a (12+1+1,11+1,6+1?) split to get 12 energy storage. At lower enegry storage (4-11) You can't rely on res sig for it, since that depends on someone dying. In PvE you might get away with Asura summons and Pain inverter as triggers but in PvP it is hard to find a long-recharge useful skill that works on low attribute (since it has to be a different attribute than the skill used to gain energy). Aegis/Shatter Enchantment/Energy Burn/Unnatural Signet/Power Drain/Leech signet/Ether signet/Rend Enchantments/Backfire/Shame/Guilt come to mind... but most of those require attribute investment and except Aegis...belong on their primaries. Most of those are 15 energy and save for Mirror of Disenchantment the rest need attribute points to be of use. The best I can think of is Mirror of Disenchantment. The problem is...even if you have only 4 skills and the rest are recharging then you gain 8 energy before attunements assuming your res sig is disabled. That means you are relegated to 5 and 10 energy skills and 2 long recharge skills not of the attribute you are mainly using. (Dual attunements is better for 15 energy and 25 energy skills)--Life Infusion «T» 04:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fire Magic

[edit] Elemental Flame

Has anyone found any use for this skill other than a waste of a skill slot? --Shadetz X 07:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Naw, it's easily beaten by Mark of Rodgort.--§ Eloc § 09:56, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

"For X..X seconds, when target foe is struck by elemental damage, that foe and all nearby foes are set on fire for X..X seconds." Recharge/Casting Time/Cost tweaked as needed. 74.14.106.67 02:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

That seems like a copycat of Mark of Rodgort. Let's make it something new and interesting. 5/1/5 For 5..15 seconds, whenever an enchantment, chant, or shout ends on target foe, that foe and all adjacent foes are set on fire for 1..4 seconds. Now it's a decent pressure skill that is most effective against defensive teams.--Skye Marin 15:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

This is kind of backward in alot of ways, first, how many elemental hexes are there, and how many are in fire magic..... both of them already causes burning why would this help? Second, this is worthless with other fire magic, because Mark of Rodgort spreads burning like nobodies business, and Glyph of Immolation already offers burning at the use of any spell, why is this limited to the end of elemental hexes which are sooo rare?

This should be spamable, activate on the application of the next any kind of hex, and deal damage as well as burning. For it to be truely useful, it should look like this.

15 energy, 1s cast time, 5s recharge. Foe is Hexed for 10 seconds, next time foe is hexed, this spell ends and does 5-50 fire damage to foes adjacent to target foe, and sets them on fire for 1-3 seconds.

3 uses, it can be used with itself to deal small damage and burning every 6 seconds to an adjacent group, and it can be used with incindiary bond to cause burning at the begining and end, and it can be used with any other hex. Cheap weak spells don't belong on elementist, they have energy for a reason, and unless it can be spammed for damage, it shouldn't be weak.--BahamutKaiser 23:51, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I think Ensign described the situation the best (some time ago). Essentially he said that a skill consuming a slot that doesn't do anything on it's own is just a wasted slot. I think that certainly rings true for this skill. Fro 20:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Guess we need to reconsider every Glyph and alot of Chants too, Aria of Restoration is definetly useless, and so is Ebon Dust Aura. This definetly needs a rework, but it doesn't need illogical justification.--BahamutKaiser 03:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I seem to have simplified a little too much (I should really stop assuming people take certain things as a given...). Skills are obviously situational. This skill 'does' nothing useful on it's own as obviously do many skills. In the situation where this would be used (by a Dual spec guy) slot space is at a premium. The guy will probably be spec'ed Fire and Water.

If your already specing in fire and require burning, what does this skill give you that cannot be better satisfied by the plethora of burning skills already in fire? You could quite easily replace this with Immolate and you'd immediately have a far better skill slotted (you need 12 Fire to achieve 3 seconds of burning with both anyway). Now you have a slot that achieves more than just burning and can function alone. On a bar that needs all the compression it can find to run efficiently (Dual-Spec), you can't afford stuff like Elemental Flame when there are far better options.

Another way of looking at the situation is GoLE and Mind Blast (Ignore the fact that one is elite for the moment). GoLE provides energy for all other spells. It doesn't do anything on it's own, but the buff it provides is powerful enough to warrant it's use. However Mind Blast does more than just provide energy, acts as bar compression and thus let's you dual spec far more effectively than with GoLE. I can't think of a single situation where Elemental Flame is good enough to overcome it's inability to do anything on it's own. Fro 13:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Na, you take other situationally skills compeltely for granted to, a cliche isn't accurate for a remote example. This is definetly worthless, entirely better options exist and there is no way you could justify this over glyph of immolation... another skill which does nothing by itself. This is about a skill with no competative value in perspective to perfectly available alternatives, perhaps no advantage exist for using this instead, an irrational remark has nothing to do with this.--BahamutKaiser 03:38, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I guess this is meant to be a cross-attribute skill that you'll likely use with Air or Water. Keep this hex at 4 att so that it applies 2 seconds of burning, then fire off L Surge or Shatterstone for a sort-of-spike that also causes burning? I don't know, this is a barely feasible skill. I was confused when I saw it in the GWEN pre-release and I still can't think of a decent use for it.

It needs a change, for sure. "For 15 seconds, target foe is hexed with Elemental Flame. Whenever an Elemental hex ends on that foe, that foe and all nearby foes are set on fire for 1...3 seconds, and Elemental Flame is reapplied." 5 energy, 1 cast time, 30 second recharge

Or something along those lines. --Reklaw 07:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

gg, it still causes attribute split for a little burning. Armond 08:54, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Elemental flame is a conditional low dmg hex. If an elemental hex ends elemental flame deals 14 dmg for 3 secods (burning). Autoattacking a target for 3 seconds deals more dmg and is unconditional. Suggestion: For 5...17 seconds, target foe is set on fire for 1...5 seconds each time that foe suffers or recovers from a new Elemental Hex. 87.189.251.58 11:25, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

reduce it to 3 seconds and change it to activate when the hex is cast, so it may work with the fire magic hexes, or change it to all hexes --Cursed Angel

13:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Burning Speed

Stand still for a second to cast (that's including aftercast) for 5 (maybe 6) seconds of variable speed. Chances are in that time you won't have got close enough to your opponent to make them burn. How about you make this a maintainable enchantment, that inflicts 1 second of burning every second for its duration. That'd be nice, but probably whored with mystic regen for flag runners. Eh, you could still set an upper limit on it's duration, even with a maintainable enchantment. --Ckal Ktak 17:36, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Ya, it is kind of a crappy skill.--§ Eloc § 18:25, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

With the constant stopping to re-cast, it takes 19 fire magic and an enchanting mod to outrun someone with a 25% speed boost. --24.179.151.252 03:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Which overall, sucks.--§ Eloc § 05:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it should give immunity to Crippled... or maybe just remove it when it's cast (similar to Illusion of Haste) Saph 21:46, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd just raise AOE to Nearby. Make the burning part in the end count. It's not meant to be maintainable or anything, it's meant to burst in, burn and likely pbAOE or hit if you're a warrior. But the burning part being Adjacent makes it hard to use well Patccmoi 14:56, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

This skill was cool when it came out cause that was the fire lines only speed boost and you can be set on fire. Since the advent of FDH, this skill is useless. As mentioned, make immune to cripple (if immune, cripple gets removed anyway), a tad bit faster for a sup rune and let it do damage when it ends. 10/.25/0 For 5 seconds, you are set on fire and move 30...50% faster and are immune to Cripple. Foes attacking you suffer from Burning for 3...9 seconds. When Burning Speed ends, all nearby foes are struck for 15...127 fire damage. --Phoenix Locklear 18:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe if this spell removed all water hexes and made you immune to water hexes for the duration... you're being set on fire after all. --Palebluedot 06:28, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

5 seconds self burn is too long and should be reduced because no one will bring Frigid Armor or any other skill to use Burning Speed. 4 September 2007 (UTC)

This definetly needs to be a stance, that way you don't have to stop moving to use it, and give it a 6 or 7 second recharge. If it was a stance, it would make a great melee caster rushing skill.--BahamutKaiser 00:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

"For 5 seconds, you are set on fire and move 30...42% faster. While moving, you gain 10 Health each second. When Burning Speed ends, all adjacent foes are set on fire for 3...8 seconds." Would be better than removig self burn for many reasons. 87.189.230.197 13:10, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I suggest adding an effect like a self applied version of Balthazar's Aura that deals around 22 fire damage per second for 5 seconds to adjacent foes and cause burning to foe for 1-3 seconds when it ends. That will somewhat make up for causing burning to self. --Shadetz X 03:07, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

How about this: Hex Spell: For 3...15 seconds, target foe suffers from burning while moving. Or a variation on that. Nicky Silverstar 08:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bed of Coals

long recharge, medium cost, mediocre damage amke this a bad skill. burning is pretty easy to apply anymore, i think this needs a slight recharge buff to maybe 20 —The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090. 01:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, I don't think many people noticed this, but you only take damage while not moving from this skill. It's horrible. --TimeToGetIntense 20:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Spell. Create a Bed of Coals at your location. For 10 seconds, foes standing still near this location are struck for 5...24...29 fire damage each second. Done25 03:15, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fire Storm, Breath of Fire, Meteor Shower ect., ect.

I know Izzy isn't a big fan of passive things but is it just me or are the AoE skills for Elementalist kinda...small? 17:27, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I have little doubt that he could make certain AoE rangers bigger...but some skills are meant to have small AoE, like the first two you just mentioned. They would cost a lot more if their range was increased. Nicky Silverstar 19:40, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

And that would be bad for an Ele why? Done25 19:40, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't want longer recharge and/or longer casting time. They're a little too long already to my taste (though not without reason, I know). That is the 'cost' I meant. 145.94.74.23 07:37, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Adjacent range is pretty bad. 87.189.237.171 17:13, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

You could also try Earth Magic if you want bigger AoE. All Earth spells have Nearby range. Nicky Silverstar 16:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

They also happen to be worse for dealing damage, iirc, and a lot of them are pbaoe. (Crystal wave/teinai's crystals are both adjacent, btw.) -- Armond Warblade

19:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

No the bigger problem is that earth AoEs generally are PBAOE or DoT (which causes scatter). The exception is Earthquake/Dragon's Stomp. --Life Infusion «T» 00:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The spells we're talking about here are also DoT spells...the non-PB DoT AoE spells of Earth Magic have larger radiusses and deal the same amount of damage per second as most Fire Magic spells. Nicky Silverstar 22:53, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Incendiary Bonds

since it's a hex it doesn't stack (even if it did, burning doesn't stack either) and has an effective 5 second cast time as a result. compare this to ancestor's rage, lightning surge, and shatterstone for similar delayed effects. Liquid Flame does more damage (sans burning) on the same cooldown and it has an easy condition to meet. It'd probably be better if the delay was reduced since it isn't packet damage that flies under prot. --Life Infusion «T» 13:41, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

This skill is just terribad. At a minimum it needs to be 15/1/5, and the condition needs to be "when it ends" instead of "after 3 seconds". Even then I'd never choose it over RI which does 50% more damage instantly, so maybe the duration needs to be brought down to 1 second also. Maybe something like:

15e 1s 5r Hex spell

Target foe and all nearby foes suffer from burning for 3 seconds. When incendiary bonds ends target foe and all nearby foes take 20...80 damage. This hex ends after 3...1 seconds.

Ultimately, this is just another boring nuke that does nothing that RI can't do better, so it's difficult to see it getting play. It's possible to add utility but fire magic is supposed to be the "punch people in the face" line so that's iffy. --Symbol 13:08, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a cool spell IMO because it allows you to compress damage by casting other spells when it ends, so I think the 3 second duration is important. The cast time is just silly though. Also, the damage is too low. This should be a spell that makes Fire Eles a huge threat when there's less support on splits, but it doesn't really do that since it hasn't been buffed while all the other damage skills in the game have been. --TimeToGetIntense 13:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's the idea, but it never worked really well in practice. 3 seconds is just way too long for someone to call the hex on them and receive some prot (or even remove it, lawl). I guess Izzy could make this the hex version of ancestor's rage, it would be weaker but a reasonable alternative to RI if you're worried about disruption. One thing it really needs is for the burning to start immediately, because if it triggers when the skill ends it'll go to waste since you've probably already set them on fire with immolate or something. --Symbol 17:40, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

first of all the effect isn't spectacular even in PvE. 84 damage on 16 fire magic + 3 seconds of burning (42 damage) for a total of 126 damage is not that lame to begin with but you wait 5 seconds for the trigger (2 cast, 3 delay) which may mean wasting it completely. Hexbreaker and Holy Veil also kill it and so does Hex removal. It should either take the Ancestor's Rage mechanic (1 second delay to prevent mass stacking) or have the burning apply on application of the hex. Sure it would reduce the number of green numbers to one (the damage) but the burning is pretty much flat as long as you have 12-16 fire magic and burning is easily applied with Mark of Rodgort. To top off the list of problems is 15 recharge (liquid flame's 119 trumps it in most cases and Rodgort's 127+3 seconds of burning=169 on 5 recharge). This is one of the few skills in fire magic that is good in theory but bad in practice (unlike things like PBAOEs in fire magic). It isn't projectile, casts reasonable amount of time (2 seconds for nearby AoE), and does okay damage. The only thing killing it right now is the delay, the fact that it doesn't stack (unlike Searing Flames and other nearby nonprojectile AoEs) due to being a hex, and the possibility of removal. If it is buffed it MAY replace Liquid Flame, but Liquid Flame's 1 cast time and conditional AoE are easy to meet and it is only 10 energy. "Hex Spell. Target foe and all nearby foes are set on fire for 3 seconds and are Hexed with Incendiary Bonds for 1 second. When Incendiary Bonds ends, target foe and all nearby foes are struck for 20...68...80 fire damage. 15 energy/2 cast/15 recharge" or "Hex Spell. Target foe and all nearby foes are are struck for 20...68...80 fire damage and are Hexed with Incendiary Bonds for 1 second. After 1 second, target foe and all nearby foes set on fire for 3 seconds. 15 energy/2 cast/15 recharge" like AoE shatterstone...--Life Infusion «T» 00:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

If the burning disappears it would be more interesting (Vile Miasma inspired this). "Target and all nearby foes take 25...85...106 fire damage and are hexed with Incendiary Bonds. For 10 seconds, target and all nearby foes suffer an additional 1..3...4 health degeneration while burning. 15 energy/2 cast/15 recharge" That way it has more flavor with the name, more pressure instead of spike, and base damage is upped by 25%. I avoided giving it any affect other than burning or damage since fire's flavor is damage with little or no utility and in this manner it would synergize with Mark of Rodgort. (In theory Incendiary Bonds = effect while burning) --Life Infusion «T» 01:03, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I think this skill just needs a boost, that's all. There's nothing wrong with the way this skill functions. What is wrong with it is the 15 energy for 120ish damage, the 2 second cast time, and the 15 second recharge. It's underpowered, plain and simple. With it at 3 seconds you can nuke someone very hard but at the cost of a 3 second warning. I like this because it promotes active play. It also allows the Ele to pose a really big threat because he alone can take down half of someone's healthbar in a matter of seconds; he has the ability to force the enemy to react. Unfortunately, Bonds will just get interrupted... and everyone has 600 health. --TimeToGetIntense 14:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

the thing is if the damage is increased it will be more spike-y which is the flavor of Air (ala Lightning Surge). Fire is basically AoE with burning on the side. Let's say this did 200 pure damage (not including burning nonsense which doesn't stack) on 16 Fire...It is still removable and nonstackable but since it is a hex it can only be removed reliably from one person or maybe two people (if foes have Blessed Light or Divert Hexes with 36% recharge wand+focus combination). and that's a lot of damage once you multiply it out.--Life Infusion «T» 00:16, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Eh, fire has been the damage line forever now. Air is for blinds. I don't know whether this skill promotes active play...you can just queue up casts and have your (for example) fireball hit at the same time IB triggers, and really, is that such a big deal? Like I said, make it 15e 1s 5r, have the burning start immediately, and make the damage trigger when it ends (so you can't just remove it), and maybe it will see some use. --Symbol 01:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

It promotes active play for the defense and is at least some challenge to use for the Ele himself. Anyway, I don't think it matters that you can remove it to stop it from happening. The problem is that this skill poses a low threat but gives a 3 second warning. For such a drawback you need a stronger threat, and since such a drawback is there, there is no need for further drawbacks like 2 second cast time and 15 second recharge. Those just sink this skill hard. --TimeToGetIntense 20:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

How strong a threat are you talking about? Because out of the delayed action nukes available only Shatterstone is any good, IMO, and that's two packets of 100+ damage. --Symbol 01:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Shatterstone isn't a nuke, because it targets only 1 foe. Nicky Silverstar 08:53, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Symantics ftl, Nicky. Anyway, I think to start with, Bonds needs to have a 1 second cast time, 5 second recharge and no other changes. If it sees no play, it should have a small damage increase so that it matches Fireball. It's not elite, so it can't be as strong as Shatterstone. It's the only delayed nuke that is not elite (I'm refering high packet damage spells as "nukes" because they aren't exclusively used to spike, so QQ moar Nicky) so it's hard to compare, but if you consider how easy it is to interrupt and the cooldown, it's plain bad with or without a delay, so I think the cast time and recharge need to be fixed first. --TimeToGetIntense 14:01, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, well, sorry about that. I just had to mention it once. Nicky Silverstar 13:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I really like the idea of the _hex_ being AoE just from the hilarity that would result. Imagine catching two or three people with the hex, and each of _them_ could catch two or three more when it pops. KABOOM! Of course we're playing GW not Bomberman so this will never happen. --Symbol 02:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, assuming no other changes to the skill, that sounds pretty good to me. It would be a threat you actually put priority on for interrupting. Could be limited to up to 3 foes hexed at once. --TimeToGetIntense 11:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Water Magic

[edit] Icy Prism

This skill is too expensive to be used frequently on a non-dual attune water magic skillbar with anything worth of value (Freezing Gust/Deep Freeze/Ice Spikes/Blurred Vision/Shatterstone...maybe) and it only does damage most of the time (signet disable really doesn't seem too elemenalist-like). The "buff" to Blurred Vision made it more possible to energy manage using Glowing Ice, which basically trumps this in every situation except for signet disabling due to energy return (you'd want frontloaded energy for water magic to snare on demand as opposed to waiting for energy to regen). For other situations Steam is cheaper, does more damage, and has a useful secondary effect. The problem is this skill is too powerful for an elementalist skill if it is reduced to 5 energy and 2 recharge yet at the same time not good enough to be 10 energy. A nice "buff" (more "rebalance") would be "Target foe is struck for 10...54...65 cold damage. If target foe is using a Signet, that Signet is interrupted. (5 energy, 1 cast, 3 recharge)" 3 recharge is for Resurrection Signet cast time (since that is the most likely use for this) and the only other signets you can interrupt with 1 cast time is Healing Signet/Signet of Devotion/Signet of Twilight/Blessed Signet/Signet of Illusions/Cautery Signet/Death Pact Signet...the rest are not really priority since any mesmer or ranger can keep them out of play such as Signet of Creation/Signet of Suffering/Archer's Signet/Signet of Mystic Wrath/Purge Signet/Signet of Weariness/Signet of Humility/Signet of Return/Barbed Signet. It's kind of like Lightning Javelin...damage with a mostly useless secondary effect. Alternately, without decreasing the energy cost, the damage could be upped considering there are few water magic damage skills: "Target foe is struck for 10...70...85 cold damage. If target foe is using a Signet or Weapon spell, that foe takes an additional 10...34...40 cold damage and that skill is interrupted and disabled for 3...8...9 seconds. (10 energy/1 cast/4 recharge)" This way it becomes more than a mash-on-recharge kind of skill...since you are rewarded for actually making use of it. --Life Infusion «T» 14:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Armor of Frost

Inferior to Frigid Armor/Armor of Mist in every way. You can't use Glyph of Immolation-Steam with this first of all (not that the combo is that great). Then consider that with 15+ Water magic Frigid armor has better recharge, is maintainable and has anti-burning. There are two way to buff this: make it armor versus physical AND (non-fire?) elemental damage, cut the recharge by 33% so that with 13 Water magic it is maintainable (or even by 50%...maintainable with 8 water), or simply make the duration higher so that with 16 water magic you can maintain it. Armor in general is pretty bad nowadays with the armor stacking nerf since it is more efficient to bring damage caps like Protective Spirit, damage reduction (Stoneflesh Aura and friends), or partywide armor (Watch Yourself, Stand Your Ground). --Life Infusion «T» 17:14, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Swirling Aura

should be target ally given the amount of conditional-ness it has. Should probably be like Guardian but with extremely short duration and short recharge to make it active. Or maybe make it do cold damage: "For 4...9...10 seconds, target ally has a 50% chance to block incoming projectile spells and attacks. Whenever a projectile attack is blocked the attacker takes 10...34...40 cold damage. (10 energy, 1 cast, 15 recharge)" or "For 5...10...11 seconds, target ally has a 75% chance to block incoming projectile attacks. Whenever a projectile attack is blocked, the attacker takes 10...34...40 cold damage. This enchantment ends if that party member hits with an attack Skill. (10 energy, 1 cast, 15 recharge)" The latter would block incoming projectile attacks while the former would block Flare / Fireball / Lava Arrows / Phoenix / Lightning Javelin / Lightning Orb / Lightning Bolt / Shock Arrow / Stone Daggers / Glowstone / Stoning / Ebon Hawk / Ice Spear / Shard Storm / Water Trident / Spear of Light / Crippling Dagger / Dancing Daggers/ Disrupting Dagger. I thought about suggesting this to be partywide, but "Shields Up!" / Aegis is so much better and Weapon of Warding / Guardian work against all kinds of attacks. So really this needs some kind of effect to make it worth using which is either damage/support/snare (all the uses of water magic). Blocking projectile spells would be a new precedent and add a new dynamic to the elementalist water support line.--Life Infusion «T» 17:14, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mirror of Ice

Laughable compared to Reversal of Damage. I think a major problem with some elementalist skills is they aren't meant for the elementalist (i.e. they don't fit the flavor...Glimmering Mark/Thunderclap because of passive effects, stone sheath because changing damage types is probably better suited for necromancer and mesmer hexes, stone flesh aura because elementalists don't have damage reduction from shadow/holy/chaos/dark, iron mist because it screws up the earth magic damage which is its attribute, Ride the Lightning/shock/PBAOEs because you shouldn't be standing there taking damage to begin with). Conditional damage should be left to mesmers and necromancers and prot elites should be left to monks IMO. When you think about this skill the description fits the name but the skill doesn't fit the elementalist. It needs something like partywide/target-ally/recharge buff... but then it is not elementalist-like in nature to begin with and the damage is not even elemental damage (why is that...it is not in earth magic or energy storage). The best I can think of at this point is to change it something along the lines of "For 10 seconds, the next time an enemy spell or attack skill would deal damage to target ally, that damage is negated and that Spell's caster takes 20...140...170 cold damage. (5 energy, 1/4 cast, 5 recharge)" to make it actually useful beyond passiveness. Making it spell and attack SKILL would mean you need to use it actively as opposed to using it as an *elite* cover enchantment (60 second duration and 10 recharge?) for water attunement like now. Shatterstone is still better for damage even after doubling the damage numbers. If this is deemed to powerful, maybe "This spells ends prematurely if target ally uses an attack skill or fire magic." can be added --Life Infusion «T» 17:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Elite Enchantment Spell. For 60 seconds, whenever an enemy Spell would deal damage to target ally , that Spell's caster takes 10...70...85 damage. i can't think of anything better to this skil--189.12.67.75 01:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I offered my possible solution aeons ago, which was altering the skill to have an effect sort of like Spell Shield, except reversing damage when you might take damage. I offer another solution, and that's to make this skill affect any spell, not just ones that might deal damage. Sort of like a one-shot Spell Breaker. The recharge would have to be adjusted, though. The reason why no one uses this spell, aside from the suck factor, is that you're really not going to use it against anyone. You basically have to walk up to someone and wave and ask them to cast a spell at you for it to work. Plus, the only consistent way for it to work is if you're being targeted by an Ele, or the occasional Domination mesmer or Channeling Rit. Maybe a buttcaster or two. --Reklaw 04:37, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Armor of Mist

needs 1/4 cast. --Life Infusion «T» 01:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree personally. 1 second isn't bad at all, and it gives you not 1 but 2 buffs. It is fine the way it is, otherwise it would be too easy to use by melee secondaries. (this skill may not be much to an Elementalist, but to a Dervish, 1/4 casting time would be jackpot) Nicky Silverstar 07:54, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

It can't be maintained anyway unless you use glyph of renewal or glyph of swiftness. This is not a big deal on 1 second cast but it is bad for running.--Life Infusion «T» 02:19, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Give it quarter second cast and we might possibly see water ele runners use this instead of storm djinn's (hands down the best ele running skill in the game)... -- Armond Warblade

02:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

P.S. the only profession that would be able to use it effectively on 10 energy without attunements is Dervishes as mentioned. As far as I know, only Frozen Burst (hard on 15 energy), Conjure Frost, Water Trident (maybe as anti-kite), Frigid Armor, and Armor of Mist are acceptable Water Magic skills on a Dervish. Keep in mind the attribute investment for both armor and duration. Speccing into /E on a Dervish is enough of a drawback IMO (No reverse hex, protective spirit, Holy veil, shadow refuge, sight beyond sight and other useful enchantments). Granted you could lineback with the new enegry cost for Whirlwind. (though pointless on a build with flagrunning type of skills) Why bother if you can take Featherfoot grace though? --Life Infusion «T» 02:34, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

This skill can be used for a lot more than just running. How about kiting? Basically, this is an Elementalist defense skill without downsides or specifics, which is kinda rare (the other one being Stoneflesh Aura. Just like the Ranger was never given any good self heals, the Elementalist most likely isn't meant to have any easy-to-use defensive skills. Armor of Mist is already the best non-elite self defense skill the Elementalist has, since it not only gives a much needed armor boost, but allows the Elementalist to kite more easily as well. It has 2 positive effects where other skills have none. If all the other (less powerful) self defenses don't get less casting time, then why should this one? And if you buff this skill, won't other skills like Kinetic Armor or Frigid Armor be even more underpowered in comparison? I would only vote in favor if the armor boost was lessened as well.Nicky Silverstar 09:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

You can't kite if melee is adjacent to you with 1 cast time. Maybe if you precast it before people get inside your aggro circle? Kinetic armor is crap outside of spam though... I don't see why there would be any reason to give this armor boost. I agree with you though, there shouldn't be that much armor on what is a run skill (+10...34...40armor currently). Maybe (+2...7...8) + 1/4 cast time would be a better idea. --Life Infusion «T» 02:23, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Why not? Not every attack they make can interrupt you, and they'll need pretty good reflexes to interrupt a second skill. I like your last suggestion better than your first, but personally, I like the skill the way it is now too. Nicky Silverstar 16:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

+2..7..8 what? Armor? That's so little it'd make the skill useless if it's not maintainable. Also, why are you waiting for the warriors to get in your face before kiting (and as part of that casting your prekite spells)? -- Armond Warblade

05:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Miscellaneous

[edit] Glyph of Essence

Cast a spell instantly but lose all your energy, imo the worst glyph with