User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Update20070809

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Please discuss this update here. ~Izzy @-'---- 21:10, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 Warrior 1.1 Crude Swing 1.2 "For Great Justice!" 2 Ranger 2.1 Equinox 2.2 Escape 2.3 Infuriating Heat 2.4 Storm Chaser 2.5 Punishing Shot 3 Paragon 4 Necromancer 4.1 Plague Sending Plague Touch Plague Signet 4.2 Rip Enchantment 4.3 Reckless Haste 5 Ritualist 5.1 Splinter Weapon 5.2 Anguish 5.3 Wanderlust 5.4 Spirit Rift 5.5 Xinrae's Weapon 6 Dervish 6.1 Enchanted Haste 6.2 Attacker's Insight 6.3 Rending Touch 7 Elementalist 7.1 Glyph of Elemental Power 7.2 Rodgort's Invocation 7.3 Blurred Vision 7.4 Chilling Winds & Arc Lightning 7.5 Glyph of Renewal 8 Mesmer 8.1 Signet of Illusions 8.2 Illusionary Weaponry 8.3 Spirit Shackles 9 Assassin 9.1 Black Spider Strike 9.2 Expose Defenses 9.3 Golden Phoenix Strike 10 Monk 10.1 Guardian 10.2 Remove Hex 10.3 Judge's Intervention 10.4 Blessed Light 10.5 Aegis 11 General 11.1 Obs mode broken (again) 12 Heroes' Ascent 13 Victory or Death

[edit] Warrior

[edit] Crude Swing

• functionality changed to: Attack all adjacent foes. Each foe you hit is struck for 1..20 damage. You have -40 armor while activating this Skill.

Crude Swing + Frenzy anyone? Helps make the skill viable though. --Deathwing 22:58, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Hammers use Flail since a long time anyway =p It's a good change to Crude Swing definitely though. Its activation is less than a second anyway. Won't make it much more interesting in PvP cause of the nature of the skill, but it's a good buff for it in PvE Patccmoi 23:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Main goal was for PvE, to allow the Hammer guy to do some Aoe stuff. ~Izzy @-'---- 23:02, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Think it might well have the opposite effect. The Earth Shaker-> Crude Swing chain won't work any better, and I don't see it used else where. Backsword

That combo exists simply to prevent melee from interrupting Crude Swing as you use it. Now that it's not easily interruptible, you can sub out your elite for something more useful.--Skye Marin 00:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

You mean like a good AoE KD that is rapidly charged by Crude swing? -Warskull 03:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Warriors in PvE are the ones that take the brunt of the damage. A warrior that spams a skill that makes it take double damage isn't the way to go. 76.64.191.219 03:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

A warrior that just spams a skill at all isnt a good warrior. Most PvE wars know they tou have to be aware of your surroundings and situation when using skills. A better War would probably use this when you'r monk has you under prot to gather quick addren and pull initial aggro, then focus on other skills and use this when they need to pull aggro back. --Midnight08 04:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The melee won't hit you when you have them all KD'd by Earthshaker. This skill was just fine before, still good in PvE now. Meh. --TimeToGetIntense 05:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "For Great Justice!"

I've had a ton of fun with this, Augie gave me a build he came up with and I've been playing it in RA. basicly it's this. Backbreaker Enraging Charge "For Great Justice!". You use Back breaker, then For great justice, then another skill normally crushing blow, this triggers enraging charge, and if you have 14 str poof you have 10a and back breaker is ready again, as soon as they stand up you kd them again for another 4s, takes some good timing but it's loads of fun. ~Izzy @-'---- 05:07, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

So you can double the gain off Enraging Charge and recharge BB before they get up? :O btw leave it to Augie to make up a build like that... :P --TimeToGetIntense 05:32, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I was using Enraging and FGJ before this update. It helped to get Eviscerate charged up in no time. Something which is needed in PvE when your going from mob to mob and having to let your adrenalin reset. Now this combo is even more elite. Great stuff :D --SK 07:41, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ranger

[edit] Equinox

• decreased casting time to 3 seconds; decreased recharge time to 15 seconds.

Wow, I guess this is supposed to put the last nail in the coffin of rit spike with all the new exhaustion skills. Overkill to a skill that needs reworking, not buffing. Now that you told everyone that rit spike is dead, what would be the point of brining this skill then? Obie Quiet 22:15, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

it's uber for pve now. still no use in pvp. - Y0_ich_halt 22:16, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Because it was underpowered for a ELITE spirit ~ Kurd 22:23, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

yup. that's not what i'd use for a gvg though. - Y0_ich_halt 22:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually it has good potential combined with Arcane Languor, and now that it's reliable this combo might prove interesting. Tbh though, if the combo becomes viable, the border between viable and overpowered will be thin because if you can fairly easily exhaust out someone, well he's worse than dead. Will have to see how it plays, but the overall buff to elite spirits makes them MUCH more interesting. Patccmoi 22:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

agree. - Y0_ich_halt 22:32, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Now this and the other elite spirits are actually playable. --Worf 12:48, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget, though, that Equinox only works on spells, not Binding Rituals. Kstarfire 10:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Escape

• decreased recharge time to 12 seconds; decreased duration to 1..8 seconds; increased run speed to 33%.

Ummm awsome for runners? I like it, im pretty sure this is the best elite stance for running ever.--72.74.237.104 01:24, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if raising the duration a few seconds more would be overpowered. 1..10 or 11 seconds(adding a proper recharge with the change as well)? To go from 17 to 8 seconds seems kind of harsh. Xitoahc 01:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

You can maintain it more easily now. It's meh, doesn't compare to the offensive ranger elites (although... it isn't meant to). It (still) won't see much use outside of RA. -Auron 02:55, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I like the change, although I agree it won't see any more use because of it. A fun skill to play around with, if nothing else. Arshay Duskbrow 01:41, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

• request. make it back to 20 sec. duration, keep it there, then change what you want, some runners relied on thsi skill

[edit] Infuriating Heat

Any chanse this skill can work like "For Great Justice!" and double any form of adren intake? Currently it does NOT work with Enraging Charge and such, which would make it at least better than the non-elite shout. Kenshin 02:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Storm Chaser

I'm going to try this on a monk and see how it goes. Who hates running monks? --Shadetz X 23:31, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

liked it on the first watch, but then i remembered Enchanted Haste also got that buff making Mo/D better again, as those also have anti-kd while running. - Y0_ich_halt 23:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I want to see how much energy on average I can gain from getting hit by elemental damage. --Shadetz X 23:39, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

yup, it rocks concerning energy. but overall it's less universality than Mo/D. - Y0_ich_halt 23:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Probably a good option on an RA Monk with Fire seeing such a huge buff in this update. Maybe good on GvG Monks if Fire Magic really catches on there too. --TimeToGetIntense 05:30, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Gained 12 energy from Dancing Daggers lol... --Shadetz X 02:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Seems good for pve getting constantly wanded all the time should give all the energy you need :).--Diddy Bow 11:54, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Punishing Shot

The lower recharge helps, but it isnt enough. The suggestions people made of making it damage on interrupt would help this skill more than a lower recharge imo.--Atlas Oranos 00:30, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. As I say here (at the bottom), this was the wrong way to buff Punishing Shot. It needs additional on-interrupt damage. Recharging 3 seconds faster is not going to make this skill see any more use. I really appreciate you being willing to listen to us about this, and I hope you will please consider adding conditional on-interrupt damage. Arshay Duskbrow 01:17, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Punishing shot is a lost cause. When it is good it starts to become way too much of a threat with ranger spikes. -Warskull 07:34, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

How would damage on interrupt make it too much of a threat?--Atlas Oranos 14:29, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Gotta agree with that, +damage on interrupt DOESN'T affect Ranger spike. It just makes it more... Punishing? I wouldn't say that the recharge buff isn't good though, it NEEDED to be as low as Savage before it could even be considered. Now just double the +damage on interrupt, and you got a perfectly viable option to other common Ranger elites and you'll be able to run a bar with Punishing-DShot instead of Savage-DShot and have room for an extra non-elite. Punishing-DShot is still viable now, but mostly if your build can't find use for a better elite (which isn't that common considering Burning Arrows is also in Marks and soooo good) Patccmoi 17:57, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

As said in another section, if you kept everything but made it diable skills for a period of time, like d-shot, I might use this. Sword.wind. 04:06, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

That's an excellent idea as well, and obviously won't influence its spike power at all. Arshay Duskbrow 06:22, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

So, a reduction to 5e and +damage on interrupt, just extra damage on interrupt, or make it somewhat like dist shot.--Atlas Oranos 00:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Too many people are under the false impression that Punishing Shot needs to be a spike skill. It's an interrupt with 5 recharge guys, stop crying. Maybe you should make an interrupt ranger, you'll find they're quite supposed to be used instead of touch rangers and thumpers. Shard 20:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

If I want a 5 second interrupt, I'll take Savage Shot. There is absolutely no reason to tie up your elite slot with Punishing Shot at the moment. Also, you apparantly failed to perceive that we are asking that it be buffed in ways that will not affect its spiking ability. Honestly, I'm confused at how you missed that, but... Arshay Duskbrow 23:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

You're asking for a buff that would enable ranger spike, you just don't know it. Dual shot followed immediately with punishing shot is one of the oldest ranger spike combos, now that you also have GFTE!, OoV, Anthem of Envy, and Nightmare Weapon in the game you really don't want to start adding bonus damage on to punishing shot. --Tankity Tank 00:55, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Another one! What part of on-interrupt bonus or disable don't you get?? Is it really that hard to understand? Arshay Duskbrow 06:04, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Paragon

Disappointed. --Deathwing 22:53, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Be happy everytime these guys get balanced its in a negative way ~ Kurd 23:08, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

awe got buffed. - Y0_ich_halt 23:10, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

The famous Shock and Awe build got buffed, yay. Can even follow up with "Help Me!".--Deathwing 01:44, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The signet that they have, i think signet of aggression, is going to be used alot imo, might even be used in zergway Anti Oath 03:16, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

You can better hit a foe than start casting Signet of Aggression. I might use it on my Dragon Slash PvE Warrior to conserve and build up adrenaline between fights. Still need a viable shout though. Maybe FGJ. 84.136.219.38 11:32, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

pre-adrenalining. :D - Y0_ich_halt 12:07, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

A lot of skills in Motivation are still waiting for a chance to become less specific and therefore more playabe. Maybe next time?Nicky Silverstar 06:41, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

A lot of skills profession wide need looked at, not just Motivation. However, it is easier just to nerf the decent skills and ignore the rest. --Deathwing 23:39, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Necromancer

[edit] Plague Sending Plague Touch Plague Signet

Really great changes. Those skills are much, much more interesting now. Draw Conditions on a midliner N/Mo combined with Plague Sending can actually become a very nice combo to transfer conditions around Patccmoi 23:04, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I was a bit worried about Plague touch as I think it's a great skill, but any warrior willing to put 8 into cursing deserves it. ~Izzy @-'---- 23:18, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I think he wants people to start running Corrup Enchantment Warriors :P Anti Oath 03:19, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd agree if Rend Touch wasn't superior to Corrupt Enchant =/ Patccmoi 05:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I dont think this will see any play. why bother with Plague Touch when you have mending touch?. Plague Signet is Elite and that alone makes this skill unusable. And I don't think I'll have the slot to take Plague Sending considering that you may not encounter conditions. 84.136.219.38 11:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Cuz' Plague Touch is more offensive -.-. Think about sending a cripslash back his Cripple and Bleeding before he can Gash. --Tensei 13:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, you can either use Mending Touch and remove 2 conditions without speccing 8 or 9 into an attribute and getting into melee range or you use Plague Touch and waste a lot of attribute points just for the purpose of sending conditions back. 84.136.221.178 12:20, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Regardless, Mandragor Imps just got stronger :( --Deathwing 12:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

For plague touch to really compete with Mending Touch it needs to transfer two conditions at a low (or no) spec otherwise there's no reason to run it. Removing one condition at a time has been lame since NF's release. I really think that plague and mending touch need to be balanced with respect to each other, say each scales to handle 1...3...3 conditions (breakpoint for 2 conditions at 4, 3 at 12 - same scale as Plague Sending but capped at 3). That kind of scaling would reward players for actually spec'ing into those attribute lines (a monk can mend touch off 3 conditions for example, or a curses necro can plague touch off 3) while not completely wrecking the skills for off-class use. --Tankity Tank 02:44, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Plague Touch needs to have a lower Breakpoint than Mending Touch. Make Plague Touch remove 2 conditions and make it unlinked again. Let Mending Touch remove 2 conditions at 6 Protection Prayers. Touch range really hinders Plague Touch's ability to remove crippling. ... or any other conditions in a retreating situation (split).

Speccing 8 curses isn't an issue. You just lose 8% armor penetration on your attack skills. Thing is though, shouldn't run this on a split warrior because you won't be able to use it against a good Cripshot since you'll be crippled and unable to get in range to use Plague Touch. If you gank, I guess you can unload the conditions on NPCs... Not gonna see much play though just due to the nature of the skill. --TimeToGetIntense 11:14, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rip Enchantment

• You lose 30..10% Health. Remove one Enchantment from target foe.

Explain to me why it was changed from sacrifice to health loss? I don't see what was wrong with the current functionality. --23:35, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe pre-emptive for Masochism?--Skye Marin 00:55, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Good call. --Tensei 02:03, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Either that or GB/Ravenous Gaze saccers with Awaken the Blood. But yeah, masochism is probably it. Ayumbhara 04:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I can no longer use it as a combo in sac builds with skills like Awaken the Blood, Grenth's Balance, Ravenous Gaze, or Aura of the Lich, all because of accommodating one non-elite. Bad nerf. Put a sacrifice cap on that new skill, but don't screw up one of the best sacrifice skills.--arredondo 18:57, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, this kinda destroyed all Elites in the current Meta. No, wait... 84.136.241.192 13:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

GW doesn't simply revolve around the Meta believe it or not. While it is important not to disrupt the balance of high level GvG play, there are other modes where some of the skills can shine. Whether its PvE, Hero battles or RA, there is more to a person's enjoyment of Guild Wars than the area that you, Mr. Anon, may prefer to play. --arredondo 14:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reckless Haste

• decreased Energy cost to 10; decreased casting time to 1 second; decreased recharge time to 10 seconds; decreased duration to 4..10 seconds; increased miss chance to 50%.

This skill is too strong. Its current format is too spammable, needs longer recharge.--Black mischief 02:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Ya i gotta say i'm not sure why this went to 100% uptime. Sure it's a bit more energy intensive to keep going, but 100% uptime with more resilience to removal doesn't actually nerf it, and Necros aren't the ones hurting for energy the most. Patccmoi 02:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree, while it is more expensive to keep Reckless going, it's also much more resilient to removal from the constant reapplication. Would still be solid with a 12-15r -Ensign 05:54, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, 15r. -Void 13:32, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

After some testing i have to say i don't like the changes to reckless/price/spirit so far. Apart from blurred, miss hexes should imo stay 2+ second casts with slow recharge, to make them easy interrupt targets. Otherwise this stuff is just too powerful.

• Reckless Haste: 10e, 2c, 20r, 5...15d
• Price of Failure: 10e, 2c, 20r, 20d
• Spirit of Failure: 10e, 3c, 20r, 20d -Void 18:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

This kinda takes them back to what they were before, except with lower duration. It's not making them more active, it's more making them worse. I think that it should be EITHER 2s cast or slow recharge, but not both. Reckless Haste for example could be 10/2/12, 4..9..10d, or 10/1/15-20 4..9..10d. Either it's easier to interrupt, or it doesn't have such a good uptime. It's the combination of fairly hard to interrupt + permanent uptime + resilience to removal with short recharge that's really powerful. In fact with good emanagement Reckless is far stronger than it ever was atm, but i think only one of the 2 attributes should be hit, not both. I agree with your suggestions to Price and Spirit though. Those hexes AREN'T worth 15E. They just last way too long for no real reason, and when you rebalance hexes to be more active, having those 2 that are very passive with long cast, recharge, duration doesn't make much sense. I'd rather see them get a comparable change to Reckless and Spirit. Make them like 5/2/15, 5..10d. Cheap and easy to throw around to try to gain benefit from another missing hexes that's there on top so that the effect triggers repeatedly in a few seconds, but not lasting forever Patccmoi 18:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Before the balance update, the hex necro was a pretty nice template to play with the right mixture of active/spammable (corrupt/reapers/faintheartedness/parasitic) and powerful slow-recharge hexes (price/reckless/vocal). Any decent domination mesmer with pleak/pdrain could annoy this guy quite a lot.

Now the little secret: Signet of Humility and e-denial (e.g. an AI/GoLE powered Panic or a FM war) make hexes so incredible powerful, because this stuff blows up your counter abilities. The necro template itself (because i would always try to look at the whole bar rather than a single skill) was a well-rounded character, cutting down the insane durations of some hexes would have been enough. -Void 19:47, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

After playing with 'em a bit Price/Spirit would feel a lot better with 10e, 20d. 30 second hexes are still pretty gross, even at a higher cost, though Price/Spirit are skills that really need a significant duration to be effective.

I agree that the skill that pushes hexes over the edge is Signet of Humility to knock out the LoD that otherwise fights the degen fairly well. -Ensign 19:54, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that's symptomatic of LoD being too strong, or at least too metagame-critical, with things as they currently are. It's very strong against degen, which is fine, but it's also very strong in many other situations (infuser selfheal, general healing duty). The combination, IMO, is too much. I'm not asking for weaker partywide healing, just for more diversity in the efficiency-heal role. --72.211.155.160 20:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Fact still remains that the necro took absolutely no skill to use yet was still as effective at shutting down an offense as any other midline char. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:210.9.137.97 .

Like spamming bsurge takes skill too.--Atlas Oranos 23:57, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Blind gets removed about a second after it gets put on so spamming it doesn't really do much other than leave you prone to getting diverted or something similar. Bsurge is most effective when timed right compared to a Curse necro doesn't really matter when you cast it as long as you cover it and hope for the best. Just a silly arguement.

True, but its just the nature of hexes and conditions. I honestly think that while hexes will become more active, but they wont take as much skill as using blind effectively. The bsurge spam comment was more or less just tossed out there, maybe I should have said aegis(old) or ward defense.--Atlas Oranos 16:08, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ritualist

Wow, someone used his Nerfhammer. I don't think any of the skills that you touched (read: added exhaustion) will ever see play again. That is way too hard. I'd lower the damage and decrease the recharge, to make the rit less of a spike character and more of a pressure character. 84.136.254.62 21:25, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, exhaustion on a non ele is ugly. Ele's can play with exhaustion due to their increase en pool, Rt's arent made to handle it and adding it to these skills removes their viability altogether. (and i HATE these skills to begin with, i agree theyre too much... but exhaustion is overkill... ). They really need a new mechanic alltogether (like a % energy drain on cast, or a smaller or faster recovering exhaustion) or a change to SP that increases en pool.--Midnight08 21:35, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

i don't think it's that bad. exquinox was damaging exclusively eles, making it barely better than mending. so now we finally have an alternative. - Y0_ich_halt 21:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it is bad either, I actually look at it as a buff. I'd rather have exhaustion with the short recharge than 25 energy + long recharge. Ancestor's Rage could have done without the exhaustion though. --Deathwing 21:40, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

ph34r t3h 3quin0x! - Y0_ich_halt 21:45, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Thats 5 of the skills that were buffed in recharge (read more exhaustion), and energy cost out of 8 skills which had exhaustion added. the other 3 (Ancestor's Rage, Wanderlust, Wielders Strike) had no compensation at all. Ancestors does good damage at 8 recharge and now adds exhaustion. At 10e this is very costly and the skill could probably use an inherant 25% AP like similar ele skills. Wanderlust's change doesnt hurt too much as it really touches spirit spammers the most and they usually have moderate energy management and this will likely be the only bar in their chain with exhaustion. Still it weakens versatility. Finally Wielders strike was given exhaustion. This i can see as for the e cost it is low for an almost dure fir conditional damage spike. Still, i see this as a bad fix for these skills and would have preferred something a bit more "creative"--Midnight08 21:54, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

that's not creative? adding exhaustion to help rangers? - Y0_ich_halt 21:56, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

There's one thing i hate about Exhaustion on Rts and it's that Exhaustion is totally counter-intuitive with Item Spells, which are all in all a big part of Rts skills or a requirement for many others. When you have item spells, you have LOW max energy, around 30 (with one exception being Mighty was Vorizun, which seems like it'll nearly be a requirement for many builds now). While Eles have tools to help them have an ADVANTAGE over other classes for exhaustion (Energy Storage, and they can easily use +30E sets switch if required though that's valid for all casters), Rts have tools that go AGAINST exhaustion by lowering their max E below that of any other caster and preventing them from using Weapon Swaps. For a few skills, the exhaustion idea is nice, like Xinrae's Weapon. But exhaustion as a whole is bad for Rts imo. It discourages using item spells, which is like 1/4th of the skills. I wish you'd really reconsider that and add some other disadvantage instead, or just balance the skills differently. Another idea could be that while holding an item spell you regenerate from Exhaustion 33% faster (so takes 20s for a strike of exhaustion instead of 30s). That could potentially cause other issues though. An Ele holding Mighty was Vorizun would have like 120E and wouldn't care about exhaustion. Unless you tie the Exhaustion recovery to Spawning Power (spirits have % more health, weapon spells last % longer, while holding an item you recover from exhaustion % faster. Could be an interesting option) Patccmoi 22:35, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

It's a good point Patccmoi, but I think Ritualist need another balancing tool, they really have had a hard time finding their place power vs effect wise, and I think Exhaustion could help find the balance on some of the their skills that are either too good when you bring a bunch of them, but balanced when you bring one or two. ~Izzy @-'---- 23:05, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

This is quite true, in that sense i see that Exhaustion is good in limiting you to choose one of the Exhaustion skills and not put them all in the same builds. But the synergy with Item Spells is still very harsh. Is the suggestion of making Exhaustion either recharge faster (20-25s instead of 30s) or hitting for less (7-8E of exhaustion) IF you're holding an item based on Spawning Power a viable idea? I don't know how Exhaustion is coded and if it would cause technical issues to do it. But i could easily see Spawning Power be like 'while holding an item, for every 4 ranks of Spawning Power you get 1 less energy point of Exhaustion' (so realistically you'd take 7 or 8E of exhaustion instead of 10E. 6E if you go at 16 Spawning, but the hell i know why you'd want to do that!) or 'while holding an item, Exhaustion regenerates 2% faster for every point in Spawning Power' so that it goes up to 32% faster (so 20s). This would settle the problem of synergy between Item Spells and Exhaustion while keeping the mechanic there to control which skills can be put on the same bar and which can't

Oh and btw nice change to Spirit Burn, i was so worried this skill would get destroyed instead of balanced and it's so nice for a Rt out of Rt spike, but that's exactly the change i hoped for ^^ Patccmoi 23:17, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I still think it's questionable turning pressure skills into spike skills with exhaustion, but I guess well see how it goes. ~Izzy @-'---- 23:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe this could be a secondary effect for some rarely used item spell, like Tranquil Was Tanasen or Defiant Was Xinrae? "While you hold those ashes, you recover from Exhaustion 0...20% faster"? Erasculio 23:27, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I like the exhaustion on spirits quite a bit, I think it will open up Rit bars by allowing them to be run at reasonable costs without creating fields of the things. The only skills I really don't like exhaustion on is Wielder's Strike. Between needing to have a weapon spell (the hardest conditional) and exhaustion, the skill is far too awkward to even try and workaround to use. -Ensign 06:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

How exactly will it open new Rit bars? If anything, the update reduced the number of viable Rit bars. Actually, after this update, I'm very curious how many people will run Rits. The problem is that aside of the nerfed things, there aint much of what you can run if you're Rt. There's just not enough other non-nerfed skills to squeeze in, which are better than what other classes have to offer. Servant of Kali 12:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, looking at the existing skill-balancing tools, we can find exhaustion, life sacrifice, skill disabling, punitive conditions, and punitive health degen. Now looking at the general tone of the ritualist, giving their skills the drawbacks -other- than exhaustion looks more in accordance to the rit 'death priest' theme. In particular, I think it'd be interesting to have sacrifice 50% health for heavy spirits (forcing rits to bring Restoration to offset). Also, it just occured to me that rit spike can be sabotaged in an interesting way by making Rift, Strike and Rage (possibly a few others) read "disable all non-channeling skills for 10 seconds" or "disable all non-channeling Ritualist skills for 10 seconds". This gives channelers intact pressure damage but makes it impossible to have an all-rit team follow spike with self-healing.--Shillo 12:19, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't want to have to use a bad elite to make up for exhaustion. I fully agree that it's questionable =p

This is for Izzy. On the discussion page for the update, I posted a comprehensive change to the channellings skills hit with exhaustion and ways to turn them into more pressure skills without having to result to somethign so...unritualist. I looked at the removal of weapon spells and various other playings with recharges/energy costs that would makes skills useable. I even suggested turning Ancestors' into an enchantment with an effect when it ends. Check it out, maybe it will inspire you with some more...justifiable ways to make changes to the Ritualist profession.TGgold 00:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

One interesting suggestion I saw was to remove the conditional damage from Wielder's Strike and replace it with, "If you are under the effects of a weapon Spell, enemies within adjacent range of your target take the same ammount of damage". Would make it useless as a spike tool, but there would still be a benefit for being under a weapon spell. Erasculio 04:16, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

If exhaustion proves to be too harsh for all of these skills, maybe life sacrificing can be used for some of them. A big life sac can make the ritualist vulnerable using certain setups. It might be more fun for both sides, as the ritualist will need to be careful while using certain skills and the opposing team can watch for that vulnerability. I don't know. What does everyone else think? --Redfeather 06:31, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Life sac isn't a bad idea at all. It actually synergizes with the Ritualist skills (for example Caretaker's Charge would be much more useful since the Self-heal could cover for life saccing, and in PvE you can use Vampirism), and Life Sac is already present in Ritualist skills and makes more sense with the Profession as a whole. It also synergizes better with item spells (you have less health, you sac less) instead of being counter-intuitive, and you could compensate with picking 1-2 Resto spells too. You could give fairly big life sac to the major spirit (like 25% life sac) and something around 17% for Wielder's Strike. And seriously to kill Rt spike just nerf Wielder's Strike and Ancestor's Rage so that they're better at pressure and worse at spiking (just like Spirit Burn, lower damage and faster recharge). Rts already have 3 spike skill with Channeled Strike, Spirit Rift and Gaze from Beyond, which ARE well balanced now with 2s cast time on each, and with all that you would fix Rt spikes without adding a mechanic that's totally counter-intuitive to Ritualists and hurting the profession. I think life saccing would seriously be a much better balancing option to exhaustion, and if you put enough life sac at the good place, you won't be able to put many life saccing skills on your bar (or you'd have to put a lot of self-heal too, which eats up your energy) just like you can't put 3-4 exhaustion ones. Patccmoi 14:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Now that's a great idea. Life-sac makes a lot of sense. It also lessens the benefit of Vital since it is a percentage (more max hp, more sac). I would much prefer Wielder's changed to pressure damage (no more unnecessary DD+DD, but DD+Utility instead) but a 25-33% sac wouldn't be too much on this in my view.

Ancestors' doesn't even need to be high damage either. 60 damage + blind 2...6 seconds, to any attacking foes adjacent to target ally. 10-15 energy, 12 second recharge, 1 second cast. See? Utility instead of dumb dd. It's easy to 'not' be all out damage. Why did this thing do 137 Lightning damage in the first place?

Sac on Xinraes' Weapon would also be far better. Go nuts with it and you kill yourself. Seriously, this thing has nothing on Diversion or Gale, yet it's elite and suffers from a conditional that should be reserved for the heavy hitters, and why the hell does it need to last 10 seconds on a target? Diversion functions fine on 6. Lasting it's recharge makes little sense to me. Smart teams will have switched targets already. 20% sac (or no sac actually) 10-15, 0.25, 15. 2...6 d.

It's updates like this that make me question if rits will ever become more than just a mish-mash of the other classes. You add nothing really 'new'. Running more or less the same bars on the 'used' characters gets dull already. If your not that interested in making the class stronger support for allies with the skills already present (both offence and defence), it would be nice to know... Fro 15:37, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Life sac sounds nice. Much better than exhaustion for channeling IMO. I mean, channeling was meant for pressure, right? So, how to build some pressure with exhaustion spells? PvE ritus who were just beginning to catch ground with aoe dmg can go home again, even considering the new gw:en skills. I was looking forward to play gw:en with a ritu first, but now.. no freakin way! Exhaustion may be fine on the spirits (hell, that would be special, as thats not even a spell, but a binding ritual) but for the pressure spells, we can think of sth. better I hope. And for spirit rift spikes: heck, that's what xinrae is for, eh? you see it coming, you disable it. --Ineluki 17:56, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

In my eyes the exhaustion is really unfair...every skill that had exhaustion slapped on it this update will never see use again, not to mention the unbearable sound of thousands of people deleting their rits..i also agree with the life sac idea, i mean, anything is better than exhaustion at this point.

i'd rather see a bonus for ritualists helping them diminish exhaustion or get less to start with. - Y0_ich_halt 18:47, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

My .02$ (I had a fairly large post about the added Exhaustion on GWOnline, this is pretty much a summary). In short, Exhaustion is a good solution on Xinrae's spells. On the Binding Rituals it is decent; I think it's unnecesary, and that there are other ways of balancing spirit spamming (for example make Binding Rituals disable your other Binding Rituals for 7 or 10 seconds when they're finished casting, which gives more than enough room to charge the rit) however Exhaustion is also a possible way to balance them.

However it is used badly on Wielder's Strike and Ancestor's Rage, which could have been balanced without Exhaustion, through ways already mentioned (lower damage and recharge). In this case the added Exhaustion kills these skills as swiftly as it killed a lot of Elementalist skills in Prophecies; in a later update the Exhaustion was removed from those Elementalist skills and, I really hope that the Exhaustion will be removed from these skills and that they will gain a Spirit Burn like treatment. The Exhaustion put on Wanderlust however seems as bad as the Exhaustion put on Meteor Shower and that is saying something. I do not see any reason for the Exhaustion to be there, as sacrifing your elite slot on a 5-second cast spirit, with a 45 second recharge who has bugged AI is enough of a penalty besides the added Exhaustion (which really only is a problem if you get interrupted).

If it was either buffed, or if Spirit AI was fixed, I might see the Exhaustion as needed. However at the moment, I only really see offensive spirits as truly useful for one mode of play which is RA (and possibly TA) as there is a lack of large spaces and, simply put, skilled teams there so you are forced into a spirit fortress far sooner than in any other mode of play.

I'm pretty ok with the other changes, none of them strike me as ridiculous (the Spirit Burn change being actually particularly good balancing).

Wanted to add: I like the suggested change of giving Rits more saccing abilities, as it really fits with the class and seems easier to handle. Also wanted to note, that if Exhaustion is to stay, might it be an idea to add some Exhaustion manipulating effect to Energetic was Lee Sa?Akirai Annuvil 18:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

After playing with Rt a bit more, i gotta say that i agree with Akirai mostly. I believe Exhaustion is a GOOD thing for the 25E spirits (fitting one in your build and using it on a 25-30s recharge is MUCH more realistic now, which is great, but you can't stack them all which is also fine). For the Xinrae's spells, possibly fine too though i would've prefer to see them reworked a bit (especially Defiant. No matter the stats, even if you remove exhaustion, it's the skill CONCEPT that's bad. Elite self-defense isn't worth anything in PvP unless it's total immunity ala Shadow Form that can found niche uses). My main problem is really only with Wielder's Strike and Ancestor's Rage because Exhaustion on simple dd spells (not ignoring armor spikes like OFlame) doesn't make much sense. Tweak the numbers, and for those maybe add a life sac. But Exhaustion for pressure skills make no sense, cause how are you gonna pressure with something causing exhaustion? Rits don't have the energy pool like Eles to say 'ok, i'll use 4-5 exhausting skills in a row to score a kill and then hang low for a while', the way you can play a Mind Shock for instance. If you use 3-4 Exhaustion skills in a row, you have no energy pool left. It's gone. And this fails for pressure skills. So i'd say tweak numbers and remove exhaustion from Wielder's Strike/Ancestor's Rage (either a simple reduce damage/recharge, or reduce damage/add utility), at worse give them a life sac. But for the other skills, Exhaustion actually seems like a good balancing method because as long as you only have 1 of them on your bar, it hardly affects you. But for Wielder's Strike and Ancestor's Rage, even if you have no other exhaustion on your bar, it will basically turn them on an average of 20-30s recharge, which makes them very bad skills. In fact, the only use they COULD have is as part of a spike build, because you can't use exhaustion skills to pressure. And since the point is to move AWAY from Rt spike, that's not a good fix. Patccmoi 19:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Ritualist with an item spell has only about 30-40 energy. This means that exhuastion will eat up 25-33% of the energy pool. Offensive and defensive spirit spamming builds are no longer viable due to energy issues. With this new update I think the communing and channeling line will be used much less now. --Shadetz X 22:33, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

In general the point of this change was to test out a limiting factor for Ritualists, I mean I could easily nerf Wielders strike into a "pressure" skill or make Ancestors' Rage suck again, but the problem is Ritualist need another mechanic to balance them. Many of their skills are either going to be really bad or really good, because the tools they have don't allow their damage to be high enough it becomes a spike, and when they are pressure skills no one uses them because if you want pressure your not gonna bring a Rit. Without some other balancing mechanic these skills are going to get nerfed and the spike is either going to work (and people will hate it) or it's not and the skills will be unused. With Exhaustion the goal is to make them spike skills much like some of the Ele spike skills and make them fun and interesting to play, with exhaustion as a limiting factor, I mean if the damage needs to come up and the costs need to go down to account for the exhaustion then fine, but without exhaustion these skills are going to fall back into either bad or too good pile. As for spirits, I didn't mean to nerf everyones build I was just trying out some uses of Exhaustion by using it as the cost instead of the crazy 25 here skills. I'm collecting builds that got nerfed hard core, and I'll make some tweaks to midigate that, but int he end the goal of exhaustion there is to make 25e 5c 60r skills more fun, and interesting. ~Izzy @-'---- 05:18, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Some people suggested health sacrifice instead of exhaustion. It would make sense, since some Rit skills already have it, it fits with their pseudo-necro theme, and you could adjust the level of sacrifice to exactly where you wanted it. Exhaustion is a rather all-or-nothing proposition, it has no variable power you can tweak one way or another. I think health sac would be a much more flexible, viable option for counterbalancing these skills. Arshay Duskbrow 06:04, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the health sacrafice suggestions. --Shadetz X 09:36, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

You think a Rt will not be used for pressure? Well, likely not in 8v8, but in RA,TA and most importent split GvG it's one hell of a nice utility, healing from one hand while dealing out damage from the other. --Ineluki 09:27, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Despite all this, i saw that you decreased the recharge on sight beyond sight, now it can be kept up forever on a spirits strength rit, this skill also looks somewhat more useful for melee classes too, so good job on this anyway..Streetp 07:49, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Izzy I see what you mean about power levels and people not using pressure skills. The reason for this is because pure damage from a caster is not all that useful. Especially when an auto-attacking melee or spear class can achieve the same thing. If you added pressure damage + utility, you'd see a difference. Even if you don't want to go down the path of things like this that are free of exhaustion...

Wielder's Strike

15..51 damage unconditional + 2..6 seconds of blind. 15 recharge

or

15..51 damage unconditional + 1..3 seconds of burning. 12 recharge

or

15..51 damage unconditional + 1..3 seconds of dazed. 15 recharge 15e cost

If you wanted to still keep the exhaustion, you really need to make these things more than just damage. Utility is always better than damage on a caster in my view.

Contrary to this, I think the exhaustion on certain spirits is a fantastic idea. I'd gladly trade 10 energy, and 20 second recharges for exhaustion, but tactically Dissonance and Disenchantment are still black holes thanks to 5 second creation times. Anguish is about right I think, considering it's synergy with Signet of Ghostly Might (a limited use but even still).

The only skill that really fails with exhaustion is Xinrae's Weapon (The Item spell has little value anyway since it's only has selfish application). It's just not worth exhaustion. The mes effect just isn't good enough. In truth how effective do you think this will be in a balanced group, 'against' a balanced group?

Compare it to a tactically placed Diversion. For this to function in it's current state, it would need to have a disable time that is truly debilitating, not just a whimsical annoyance. Basically something comparable to Diversion (like 20-30 seconds). Problem with that is you create a more active version of what is effectively Spell Breaker against intelligent casters. So the dilemma is it's not good enough to be worthy of exhaustion but if it was, it might be detrimental to the game. The mid-point would be no exhaustion and Diversion like qualities. 10e cost, 12-15 second recharge, and a maximum duration 6 seconds for similar reasons you did the same to those mesmer skills in a previous update. It just makes sense... Fro 10:41, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Stop trying to save a class that should never have been implemented in the first place. Death to ritualists!!! Man, it just takes so much skill to lay spirits its amazing, and even more to 3 2 1 spike. Lets keep them a viable imba class amirite? I actually like these changes. Exhaustion was put on eles to prevent spamming really strong skills. Well, it just so happend that ritualists had really strong skills, so why not add exauhstion? Great update overall, hexes are almost fixed, but still need work. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Necros .

Placing spirits takes no skill? Oh really? I've seen ele and warrior builds which take far less, and no one complains about those. You know what, spirit spamming DOES take skill. Go to RA, play around, you will be able to notice bad and good spirit spammers. I played with both in my team and I can tell you spirit spamming isnt just "randomly put random spirit at random time and wait for enemy to charge on you". I've seen people who are really bad at spirit spamming, and some who made a science out of it, by studying placement, spirit AI and anticipating enemy moves depending on which spirit you place when and where. Servant of Kali 15:15, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

You see? It's attitudes like this that just confuse the situation. Removing a class from the game after implementation is the most asinine thing I've read in a good while. What is the problem? You don't want to deal with the extra considerations a new 'viable' class will bring to the game? Stop being lazy.

Ritualists have been jumping from extreme to extreme since their implementation. A lot of bad things have arisen through that period (mindless spirit-spam and Rit Spike). However there is a lot of good in the class that could really shake up competitive play (things like Guided Weapon, and a functioning Xinrae's for example). I just hope that Izzy's ears are tuned to filter out rubbish like this... Fro 13:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC) (latest edit : Correcting formatting. Careful Kali mate :P)

Yeah, I've already whined about attitudes "let's have 2 classes and play chess where the only difference is color and who starts first". Servant of Kali 15:15, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

If painful bond is too powerful, nerf painful bond, not the spirits

Ok, how having exhaustion on spamable spells like rage and wielders strike is a really bad idea on a class that has 25 max energy with an item spell, which is required for a lot of builds and skills, has been pointed out enough now i guess. So i focus on my very personal problems with this patch. I am concerned about the impact of this patch on the viability of ritus in DOA. I was always a strong supporter of having a ritu, mesmer, ele dmg backline instead of the classic 3 ele one there. Not only because i found it more fun to play the ritu instead of my dumb searing flames spamming ele, but also i found it more effective to have a good combination of ele knockdown and dps combined with spike of ritu/mesmer. With the changes to spirit rift and ancestors rage you killed that build. Energy is already a problem so ancestors rage is out of the question now and with the spirit rift nerf dmg suffers so much that you can't take a ritu over an ele anymore. Not even to talk about the much higher chance to get interrupted by dreamriders now. I can see that ritu spikes in pvp might be a problem that needs to be addressed, but in pve those two skills were perfectly balanced (ritu more spike dmg, ele more dps) and i don't think spirit rift is the root of the problem in pvp and ancestors visage could be balanced for pvp without that huge impact on pve. At least last time i played PVP (though i agree that has been a loong time ago), players were smart enough to move out of a big shiny sign that says "lots of dmg in 3 seconds here". And about alternative balancing methods of ancestors rage, there were already mentioned some like life sacrifice or disabling all ritu non channeling skills. So for the sake of diversity in PVE i hope you take them into consideration. 134.130.183.235 17:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Why not just reduce the arrack rate of the powerful spirits to like 3-5 sec or give x% chance to fail?

[edit] Splinter Weapon

• Splinter Weapon: decreased recharge time to 20 seconds.

so... what should that mean? the recharge is 5 right now. meant duration? - Y0_ich_halt 21:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

This is a type it's Duration not recharge. ~Izzy @-'---- 23:03, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

That's pretty funny. Izzy just typo'd "typo" with "type".--Skye Marin 13:19, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm a walking Typo I suck at english soo bad : ) ~Izzy @-'---- 05:09, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

This wasnt dealt with correctly at all... the duration wasnt a problem, it only takes 4-5 seconds to unload 5 attacks, it was the damage power it has at VoD.--TheLordOfBlah 05:14, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

It's perfectly possible to create a single target pressure spell - in fact you have made one in Immolate. The issue with caster damage in general in Guild Wars is that you have to choose whether you want to deal damage or get some useful effect - contrast with physicals, where all your skills have effects and the damage comes from your natural attacks. Also, caster damage as a whole is *very* expensive, while physical damage is free, so when it comes down to it you're a whole lot better off letting your physicals kill while your casters spend their energy on stronger, supplemental effects. Most of the DDs you see used are used as part of a spike, since that's usually the only situation where the damage justifies the energy.

Good caster pressure skills act like physical skills, they do damage plus have an effect. Water, for instance, or many of the degen hexes work in this way and that's part of why they are so good. AoE is an alternative to spikiness for making a good damage skill, since those can be used tactically as well. I'm kinda unhappy about the Ancestor's Rage change in light of that, because it *did* have usage outside of a spike since it's an AoE nuke, you just had to get the numbers right.

A good single target pressure skill, without spikiness, would need to be in the range of 75-85 damage @15 (depending on type and whether or not it is a projectile) for 5 energy on a very short, 2-3 second recharge. As far as I know, there aren't any skills in Guild Wars that fit that profile, even conditionally. -Ensign 10:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I've often thought the same about pressure skills on casters, and it's always support for the damage a physical is doing anyway. Immolate is a great example also since it doesn't stack as effectively as pure, non-degen damage spells (better for single usage, worse for clone wars). I did feel it should be slightly lower on Rits considering their defensive capability, but then when you have LoD to eat up all the damage, I guess it's a little dubious.

Damage packets are a nice solution to making slightly lower values more attractive, since they reek havok with RoF and sit nicely under Spirit Bond... Fro 12:51, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anguish

• decreased Energy cost to 10; decreased recharge time to 20 seconds; this Skill now causes Exhaustion.

Among the Ritualist skills that were given Exhaustion, this is the only one that bothers me. All the others are more reliable - even Wanderlust is more reliable, as it's likely it will hit an enemy who's not moving as long as you cast it within range of a few targets. Anguish, in other hand, is not reliable - between the (very cool) nerf to hexes and the buff to hex removal, and the lack of ways to make the spirit attack who we want it to attack, the probability of Anguish actually attacking someone with a hex is small - unless you decide to hex who the spirit is attacking, but that not only is too random, but also it would be a simple matter to remove the from that specific target in order to prevent the damage (unless you're using Hexway, but hopefully that's gone now). Ritualists could afford the 25 energy with a skill so unreliable as this given how they have many kinds of energy management - but they don't have ways to get rid of Exhaustion, and getting Exhausted over a spirit that won't do anything useful is not really going to work, IMO. Erasculio 23:27, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why this skill should cause exhaustion. Already has a condition that requires oppoenent to be hexes in order for double damage. I don't think this skill is worth taking along anymore. --Shadetz X 23:37, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Not only that, but I don't really remember I saw this skill ran before either. And now when you have to make a choice between Dissonance Disenchantment and Anguish on your skillbar, I can't see a single reason to take Anguish (except if your teammate is taking it, but I somehow doubt that's gonna happen with all the changes). Servant of Kali 23:48, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Are you guys familiar with Painful Bond? lol....this + PB = ownage, I find it especially useful in PVE.Streetp 18:54, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

the problem is not damage. it's controllability. with pb you have to go after what anguish decides to attack to get that uber dmg. you can't tell it what to attack or focus it someway. in pve that might work (because nearly everything works there), but for pvp it's useless because you can't just go after what your spirits do. that's why it's not worth exhaustion. - Y0_ich_halt 19:04, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Play some PvP with new Anguish. Servant of Kali 21:19, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

i know it's uber dmg. but you can't control it yourself. i'm ok with that whole exhaustion thing, but i think this spirit doesn't deserve it. it's really the only one. - Y0_ich_halt 21:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Well honestly i agree with that. Anguish was never worth 25E in the first place, while it was understandable for the others. It should've been 15E. At worse make it 5s cast. But i don't really see why it should be put on the same level as Disenchantment or Dissonance that are FAR better spirits all-in-all. Patccmoi 23:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

It seems like it wouldn't be too hard to just make the spirit prioritize hexed foes, but of course that's easy for me to say, not having access to the code ;) --Mysterial 04:13, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wanderlust

• this skill now causes Exhaustion.

I'll basically c+p what I said in one of the GWO Rit threads: Wanderlust is 5 seconds, heavily prone to disruption and at a higher cost if it is now with the added exhaustion. If compared with Meteor Shower which is a spell, if any pvper was to ever run that type of skill, they'd probably run it with Glyph of Sacrifice. Key difference that MS Kd's 3 times and does dmg with each, while Wander does 0 dmg and Kd's more in accordance to how much you put into spawning power. Triple the cost now and still heavily prone to interrupts, so basically you're 30 energy down and have a skill slot lost for 45 seconds if you get interrupted. There is nothing that brings down the activation time of binding rituals, so the addition of exhaustion to this kind of skill really hurts it overall imo. Lowering the recharge to 30 seconds or the activation time to 3 seconds would really help this skill after the exhaustion change. Xitoahc 00:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The only thing the exhaustion does to this skill is prevent the spamming of other spirits with it, which was the point. Exhaustion ends in 30 seconds, and recharge is 45.--Skye Marin 00:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Meh, was one of the only real elites left for general PvE use, now it's hard to fit into bars. -Auron 02:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Bye bye boss farming build! At least I have VwK.

If nerf to this skill ruined your farm build, I'm all for the update. Die farming die. Servant of Kali 11:33, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

lol, if you think it's going to help the market you are completely mistaken.

I have no idea why this was nerfed, I blame people who hate ritualists and want them completely removed, I will not use this elite anymore 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm disgusted with "lets have 3 classes in the game". Those people should play chess. I didn't like elementalists and warriors in Prophecies, but did you hear me running around screaming "oooooh remove these classes!". No. I didn't. Ritualist are a part of the game, and if you don't like em, you can always organize 8v8 scrimmage with people who want Prophecy skills only. Anyway, this skill wasn't overpowered before, not by a long shot, especially if you know how to abuse spirit AI (and if you don't who cares). You're not the only one who will not run Wanderlust anymore. See, for this skill you need to invest into 3 attributes, Spawning Communing and 3rd. Why 3rd? Because Spawning has little useful non-elite skills (actually, it has none which go along with Wanderlust), and Communing has very few as well (you can stick in Pain, that's about it). Servant of Kali 14:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Stop posting troll bait.

Either way, the only people that will stop using this are the "spirit spammers" who never had much skill/varied play to begin with. Wanderlust is still viable, but only if you don't have a stupid bar (wanderlust/dissonance/disenchantment etc). Learn to play varied builds and these niche nerfs won't hurt as hard. -Auron 15:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Aha. And would you please post 8 skills with Wanderlust in, I'm interested in how your skillbar would look like. Servant of Kali 16:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh ya, also, why is wan-dis-disenchantment a stupid bar? Not that I used Wanderlust, but I'm curious? And then you're telling to people to use varied builds and stop using niche skills? Really? What's wrong with niche skills? And you know that all spirit spammers have no skill? And begin the post with "stop posting troll bait" while you're trolling more than I do. Disgusting. Servant of Kali 16:15, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok... this is not that hard to understand. There are certain game formats where a forest of spirits is completely overpowered (TA immediately comes to mind, also some areas of HA and HB) so Anet made it so 1 guy couldn't by himself maintain a forest of the most devastating spirits. I think they tried to do this the first time by upping the problematic spirits to 25E and nerfing BoC... but that didn't work (people have found ways to power it) so they implemented a 'surer' fix. I think it's an good solution. You can still make your Wanderlust/pain/bloodsong/shadowsong/etc forest to your heart's content ... but you have to make some hard choices about the really powerful ones... 21:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

There is already a restriction on spirits, only one spirit of the same kind can be up at time. 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Im not debating exhaustion on Anguish Disenchantment and Dissonance, but only Wanderlust. I think exhaustion on this skill is too much. Never mind though, I was never a fan of Wanderlust and never used it (except when I tried it out), so it's not like it will hurt me. Servant of Kali 23:45, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I like exhaustion on the spirits with the reduced costs, but I'm not a fan of it on the damage skills. I'd prefer the use of a different type of limited resource on a number of them. Ancestor's Rage could steal X% of spirit energy of the spirit nearest the target ally and convert it to lightning damage, something manageable for one Rit, but not a team. Spirit rift could damage all spirits in earshot by something near 35% of their life. Wielder's strike, on the other hand, could do it's additional damage to a nearby foe instead of the target foe. No need for Exhaustion on these skills is needed, really. Xinrae's Weapon having a meaningful sac would be awesome (30..15%). Encourage powerful skills, but with mechanics that don't get better with more uses. Key word is encourage, not limit the opposite.--Skye Marin 22:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Yea seriously. Exhaustion? On a rit? Non ele classes just dont have that kinda energy to deal with exhaustion. Even just 1 bout of exhaustion is a killer. I recommend changing up the whole Exhaustion effect. I guess a little exhaustion is ok, ur summoning a super power spirit, it makes u tired. Ok i guess. I think the whole functionality of Exhaustion needs to be changed NOW. Every spell should apply its own amount of exhaustion, instead of a generic 10 energy. Like say, Meteor Shower adds 10 points of exhaustion, whereas some rit skills or weaker ele skills might cause 3-5 points of exhaustion. Exhaustion needs to change now. Each spell should apply a different amount. 68.226.80.7 00:09, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the Exhaustion on this skill is fine, but it needs to have its recharge reduced like the other spirits that got it.--Mysterial 15:20, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

If shock warriors can use exhaustion skills, Im sure Rits can too.--Renegade 15:26, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Warriors also have an entirely different energy line to dig into, so people should stop bringing up that point.Streetp 18:59, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

ra spirit spammers still use it. met 10 of them today, every single one with either wanderlust or, rarely, preservation. - Y0_ich_halt 19:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spirit Rift

• increased casting time to 2 seconds.

This now takes 5 seconds to do anything and for the last 3 of those the target must stand still. The pay off for landing this oh so unlikely nuke is 135 adjacent lightning damage. Were the PvE monsters crying over this skill? Because any humans standing in place for 4 seconds while a glowing blue orb and accompanying sound effect rises at their feet deserved to be blown up.

Players were using other skills (such as Gale and Shadow Prison) to keep players within the glowing blue orb's range. Erasculio 04:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Are the monks on the other team playing blindfolded? Because a Spirit Rift spike would tend to telegraph just... ya' know... a teensy bit.

This just reverted the buff it had a skill balance or two ago. --Deathwing 10:25, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Lol no monks aren't blind ... just do the math 7x Spirit RIft + 7x some other nuke (ancestors rage, wielder's strike) and a monk can infuse 6 times and target is still dead. Oh did I mention the 8th guy is stripping enchants?

I feel that, since the other RitSpike skills were hurt so badly, this skill could have remained the same. If anything, justlower the damage a little. --Tensei 14:05, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

This was ran in a spike with this + ancestor's rage as well as ritspike, and besides, it's an easily lethal spike(even alone) that just happens to have incredible synergy with a character(N/A shadow prison) that has a very spammable deep wound and can guarantee that the spike hits. --Edru viransu 20:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Then maybe the monks should have rather used hex removal instead of infusing 6 times... :) 134.130.183.235 17:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

There are, like, two covers, and they use Iron Palm for the KD before there's even a chance to remove the hex, as well as having 3x enchant strippers. Shido 15:02, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

sry this skill is terrible now, 2 seconds casting time and need 3 seconds to be triggered 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Umm, this skill was horrible before. "Hi, us 6 bright glowing energy balls are gonna give you 3 seconds to take a step in any direction before we explode, killing the dumbest people on your team." Anyone who died from this skill deserved it. You could even move out of it while snared. Shard 20:13, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Xinrae's Weapon

Totally not good enough. The disable isn't long enough to be used against anything besides caster spikes. Why can't it be more along the lines of Diversion? It's an elite afterall. It could maybe have a 30 second disable and only work on the next spell? Anyway, no one's going to run this with Exhaustion and a short disable time. --TimeToGetIntense 05:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Disable should be upped by 10 seconds on both Xinraes to make them somewhat useful. Especially with the added exhaustion.Streetp 07:58, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dervish

[edit] Enchanted Haste

• decreased recharge time to 15 seconds.

will make Mo/D rushing so much easier. thanks >.> - Y0_ich_halt 21:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Attacker's Insight

• functionality changed to: For 20 seconds, your next 1..3 attack Skills cost 5..20 less Energy.

Great buff, this is now worthy of a slot :)--Atlas Oranos 00:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

This helps make the Black Spider Strike nerf a lot less painful. --Deathwing 11:15, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

It's a buffed GoLE for attacks~ --24.179.151.252 03:55, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

That requires 12 to max the attacks at 3. Gole allows two spells to be cast for 10 less energy with 0 investment.--Atlas Oranos 23:55, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

But it only needs 5 as an investment to be exactly specced as GolE. Don't forget the 1/4 cast, which is better on a melee character.--Skye Marin 04:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget that this has half the recharge. --24.179.151.252 18:28, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Excuse the sarcasm of the first post, but why exactly do you guys see this as a threat, there are only a few skills even worth using with it, and if something like a ranger, or sin specs into this, he will either lose: reliable condition removal or an ias.--Atlas Oranos 00:17, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Keep in mind that this can be removed, gole cant.--Atlas Oranos 00:26, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rending Touch

• decreased recharge time to 5 seconds.

Alittle worried about this one.--Atlas Oranos 02:08, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

This skill is too strong. Needs longer recharge. --Black mischief 02:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Very worried about this one. It was powerful and played before, so... why? Patccmoi 02:15, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

ow! hit it with the nerf bat >< 8 sec recharge plz --Lou-Saydus 02:48, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

From the 3 gvgs i did after the update, every team had a warrior with this, if this skill is goign to be 5 seconds, have it require an enchantment tto be lost for it to remove one. Anti Oath 03:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Overbuffed. But I hate SoD, how to feel on this :p - But seriously, too strong. Yesitsrob 04:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea of making it require an enchantment to be removed on the caster in order to remove an enchantment on the target. No idea if this would still be abusable, though. Erasculio 04:19, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Rending touch is retarded now. Please revert, or make it 8r at most. --Symbol 03:21, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Watching this in GvG is sad. How about link it to Mysticism and make it: 5/.75/5, this skill is disabled for 10..5 seconds? So for Dervs with 14 Mysticism, it'd be 5s recharge, but for warriors it'd stay 10s recharge. The thing is, losing an enchantment is just never a downside for warriors. Rending Touch at 5s is just retarded because it destroys every other build relying on enchants. You see Eles being massively stripped after they cast an Attunement in order to strip it even if they attempt to cover it (they don't all carry 5s recharge cover enchant!). Conjure Warriors are dead (that's not necessarily a bad thing, but why buff Conjure for 3 patches if you buff a skill making it obsolete afterwards?). I'd either do the switch to Mysticism and disable it for a duration depending on your rank on it, or just forget that change and put it back at 10s recharge. It was ALREADY good at 10s recharge. At 5s recharge it's absolutely retarded. It's like watching Grenth Dervs again. Warriors training monks and using Rending Touch repeatedly whenever a prot worth stripping is on. Patccmoi 03:32, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd simply revert this change, the skill saw play before the change and now it completely decimates enchantments on its own. -Ensign 05:56, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I must say this one surprised me. A heavily played skill, already considered overpowered by many, gets a significant boost? There must be some backstory to this, and I'd love to hear it.

Skill was already viable and commonly used, completely unessicary buff.----The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:210.9.137.97 .

It already was a great skill before, now it's just broken. This change really needs to be reverted. --Draikin 11:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Signed. Needs 10 recharge again. -Void 13:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

It's a freaken baby avatar of grenth! Anti Oath 14:00, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Already reverted to 8 second recharge, lol.

[edit] Elementalist

[edit] Glyph of Elemental Power

• increased duration to 25 seconds; increased number of Spells affected to 10.

- Considering how you downgraded Elemental Lord and have now buffed this skill, how can Elemental Lord really compare with the +2 attribute points offered by this skill? It just seems odd that this skill be so superior to its PvE-only counterpart...Are any changes planned? 99.245.143.39 05:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd prefer if Elemental Lord would be changed to a sort of Universal Attunement that doesn't stack with other the attunement skills. Something like: 10/2/30 "For 30..60 seconds, all your elemental attributes are boosted by 1, and you gain 1 energy every time you cast an elemental skill plus 4% of the energy cost for every rank you have in Energy storage (maximum 30..50%)."--Skye Marin 13:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

XD, I use both. I think it's awsome that you made Glyph of Elemental Power better. As for Elemental Lord, it's fine at 1 because 20 is the limit you can get in an attribute.--§ Eloc § 15:56, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it's retarded how not only does it give you 15 seconds of buffed spells, but you can reset it anytime you want for practically no energy cost. If we need anything to get buffed, it's more ele skills.[/sarcasm] Shard 20:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rodgort's Invocation

• decreased casting time to 2 seconds; decreased recharge time to 5 seconds.

Why this change instead of increasing the AoE? Are you really that worried that the game is going to suddenly explode if Fire gets an "in the area" spell? Fire is supposed to be the big AoE nuke line, but it doesn't get a single spell, not even elite, that goes to that radius? One could argue that even if Rodgort's Invocation had that radius it would still be inferior to Deep Freeze thanks to the latter's strong zero-attribute slow effect. I just don't understand it, but maybe you know something I don't. I'd be glad to be educated :) --Mysterial 02:43, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Rodgort's Invocation is totally insane now. "In the area" probably would have been a better buff but you can't really complain about where this skill stands on the power scale. Coupled with mind blast or dual attunes you will never need another AoE again. --Symbol 03:01, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, fire NEEDS an "in the area" nuke to be serious about itself in pve. maybe no burning target foe if they are below 50% health? --Lou-Saydus 02:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Seriously, Rodgort's is much, much stronger at 25/2/5 with Nearby than 25/3/15 with Area. You can basically throw 3 in that time, with less chance to be interrupted. Making it 25/3/15 with Area would be a nerf at this point. I really have no clue why anyone would complain about it except to say that it's too strong. Patccmoi 03:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Did you say fire needs a buff in pve? lolz —The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090. 03:37, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Put it this way. If you hit one target _ONLY_ this skill is on par with lightning hammer, which is already pretty beefy in that regard. Now consider that the line it's in (fire) is actually halfway decent at doing damage AND you get nearby AoE...yeah. --Symbol 03:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I think it's powerful enough, but it's less interesting IMO and with such a narrow difference in the skills it just makes it harder to find a place for the others. All of Fire basically does the same thing as it is and limiting the AoE is just hedging it in further. I felt similarly with the Smoldering Embers change a while back - sure, it's balanced now, but it's basically just Fireball, slightly different. Is that really better? --Mysterial 03:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Sure, it would be a more tactical skill at 25/2/15 with "in the area". But I'm not going to complain. Fire really needed another good, _non-elite_ DD, and at least now RI allows for some skill bar compression since it's so good at what it does. --Symbol 04:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

You know what I would really, really like? If this skill was reverted back to how it was in Beta Testing, with the entire compass as its range : D I would love to see something like "You lose all energy. All enemies within compass range take 10...90 damage and begin burning for 1...3 seconds. 50 energy, 5 seconds casting time, 30 seconds recharge". Or even that, but within earshot. Of course, that is never ever going to happen, but it would be nice to have some Fire spell powerful purely thanks to a huge range, as opposed to doing huge damage. Would be the very opposite of, say, Lightning Orb. Erasculio 04:16, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh ya, i can imagine the teams with 6-7 Eles with 16 Fire + GoEP running around the map evading any fight but throwing Rodgort's on recharge to auto-spike everyone on the map (and any caster would instantly die or nearly, neato). Then they just run in range of the other team's base and instantly kill all NPCs. Then they turtle and wait for VoD by chain spamming Meteor Shower on anyone trying to approach them. And at VoD, they Glyph of Sac 7 Meteor Shower on Guild Lord and remove enchants on him. That would be great =p Patccmoi 18:15, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Heh, that was the extreme suggestion that is never going to happen :D But, as I said, I think it would be nice to have a Fire skill powerful thanks to its range, not thanks to its damage. The animation of this skill (a symbol appears at the caster, not at the target) always gave me the impression of a point blank spell with a long range - but I think it would be interesting to have it as something ranged but "in the area" with lower damage (or worse stats, as pointed above), in order to mark it as something different within the Fire Magic line. Erasculio 01:36, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Far too powerful in its current state, bump up the recharge to ten to at least match Glyph of Energy. Currently there are two sure-fire ways you can run this: with glyph of energy, or with dual attunements. Both ways provide plenty of energy to continually fuel the spell for maximum spammage.

I don't think this skill has become too strong. It's easy to interrupt and the cost is huge, especially if it is interrupted and you don't gain back the energy from attunements. One Power Leak and you're down almost 50 energy. Personally, I would have prefered 25/3/15 with in the area or maybe drop recharge to 12 with that... It would be a more strategic skill that way, but now that it's such a monster I say leave it like this. :D --TimeToGetIntense 05:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the above. Interrupts totally ruin offensive casters, a 25e 2s spell cast every 7 seconds is asking for a pleak or a dshot to the face. If you can successfully play this character with a mes or a ranger camping you, you deserve a lot of damage IMO. By the numbers mind blast-RI is about as strong as prenerf SF (slightly less AoE damage, slightly more single target damage), except more flexible, and it doesn't scale up to retarded proportions if you have multiple copies of that character. That's fine since the scaling was the real problem anyway. --Symbol 10:44, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Reset Indent Ok so i am usually one for saying that skills aren't overpowered just learn to deal with them better. When you look at the numbers I would have thought the same, a very easy interrupt for anyone to catch on multiple proffessions and with the cost of not casting it being so high i would have thought it was perfectly balanced. But oh no! Along comes Mind Blast and solves all the energy problems, along with providing a decent amount of damage itself as well. The spell can now be cast so much more often than would be suggested by its numbers, and with huge amounts of damage to help. I can't say i've faced any in GvG yet but a lot in HA and people seem to be bringing them in groups of 3. stupid high amounts of damage and very difficult to shut down 3 of them. I'd say up the recharge to 8, or possibly even 10. As it is it's just too good and works too well with Mind Blast. --ChronicinabilitY 04:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I was using this with Mind blast before it was popular! Darn now its probably going to get nerfed. Lord Raikage 04:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Last time I bring this up, I promise : P But about increasing range, how about this: "All foes within earshot are struck for 5...41...50 fire damage and set on fire for 1...3...3 seconds", under 25/2/15. You would have a spell with an incredible range, that would not be useful to spike (even 8 of those would do only 400 damage plus burning), would be hard to use in multiple characters at the same time (since they would have to stay close to each other, thanks to it being a point blank spell instead of a ranged one), yet would have a very strong sinergy with Glowing Gaze, Earthen Shackles, Ward of Weakness and even Searing Flames. Erasculio 19:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree with weakening this skill. If it's too spiky, sure, reduce the damage or something and make it In The Area, but Rodgort's eles now are s