Talk:Urgoz's Warren/Map

Missing safe locations

This map is wrong the locations in which people need to stay behind are the in the wrong places...... Can someone fix it please I dont know how too --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.46.174.90 (talk • contribs) at 21:03, 4 July 2012 (UTC).

It's only marking the locations of the room; the map isn't designed to show the "safe" locations. (Perhaps it should be.) – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 22:56, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

You chose the wrong title. The locations are not missing, but mistaken instead. The problem with the current indicators is that death trap's "safety character" spots are only 2 and not 4. To correct this we only need to change the legend (text display when hovering the mouse over icon) from the "Energy Drain" and the second "Life Drain" icons. The correct spots are the two which have the position marker. Where is Alex? Yoshida Keiji talk 11:21, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

The legend on the map needs to be clarified then. It's not at all obvious to me that there are any safe spots listed on the map (and, actually, there are several plausible locations to stand, depending on the effect). I think it would be better to use the effect-icons to simply indicate the locations of the Twisted Barks and use a distinct icon (perhaps using number symbols, such as ❶ or ❻) to indicate important points on the map referenced in the walkthrough. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 17:55, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

If we check the current walkthrough, we can easily find that the guide and the map were not updated together, the description points a "yellow dot" which after Alex's update is no more, at section 7. And the writting for section 10 is very poor. I have just started a new version but won't be able to finish it today because its a very large work (User:Yoshida Keiji/Urgoz's Warren) I will make sure to cover these issues when I get to those points. I will have to strongly disagree that it is 100% obvious to where to stand, the position markers are perfectly placed. This has happened to me several times when my guild was Kurzick and I used to make alliance runs on a daily basis. For any PvE expert or average good PvPer it sucks a lot when we say "-Come here where I am standing-." and the guy we are referring to asks back: "-Where?-". And I know what any guide player under this situation feels and thinks "-What an idiot...I'm standing here and the guy asks where?. Can't you see?-". Not that I intend to offend anyone, but it sucks a lot if somebody has the spot perfectly marked and instead of just going there...he/she chooses to move a "bit" away. Again, I will make sure to properly cover positioning in my "new" version. Also, it might be helpful to play a full run to capture more screenshots. For example, the EoE placement I know perfectly but find it a bit hard to describe and I don't have any such document, not even in my own guild's forum. I will be making side memo notes if more images are needed. Yoshida Keiji talk 10:52, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Please update the legend. I don't lightly use phrases like "it's not at all obvious to me," unless... it's not at all obvious to me. Here's how I see the current map:

• There are 8 markers that I believe are meant to be the location of the various Twisted Barks (or maybe just an indication of the environmental effect — no way to tell from the legend).
• There are two markers that look like someone forgot to remove a compass icon (they are not referenced on the map legend, they don't have a clear linkup to the walkthrough, and there's nothing special about them at all — no way to tell if they are important or not).
• There are no markers indicating safe spots for the exhaustion rooms (leading me to conclude there are no safe spots at all on the map).
• The walkthrough uses section numbers; the map does not.
• The walkthrough describes landmarks (e.g. bridges, gates); the map does not show these.
• The walkthrough describes rooms as if they have borders; the map does not show these.

I can understand why someone who visits Urgoz all the time might think these points are obvious, but to people I know who have never been or only a few times, no, it's not always clear what is meant by the icons on the map. This page should be able to stand alone, without someone having to go back/forth to the walkthrough page to try to match up the picture with the words.

The thing is: it is really easy to update the icons, add legend notes, and use different icons for landmarks (bridge or where to stand) vs foe locations (e.g. Twisted Barks). – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 17:20, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I did some temporal adjustments until someone with better image editing knowledge fixes it properly. Yoshida Keiji talk 22:05, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Ugly, but gets the job done; thanks. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 18:02, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Ok I'm back

Alex's do-able wish list:

• I'd like to have the Twisted Barks represented by the Effect icons. (And then move all the effect icons to the correct place)

  Edit: This doesn't really work with the exhaustion-wolf room since no group attempts to kill the bark.

• I'd like to clearly number every Guardian serpent. Perhaps using ❶
• I'd also like to label every other significant point of interest:
  • A place to stop to avoid hopping vampires on the flame bridge

    Edit: Changed my mind, I added a detailed text walkthrough beneath, makes the bridge a breeze.

  • A place to stop to avoid doors closing and rooms full of wardens
  • A place to stop to avoid the penultimate room deathtrap.

I've reinstated the compass mission-map icon because its see-through and small enough that I feel players can see through to the underneath map without turning it on and off.

Also, my character map is slightly corrupt and I can paste the dingbat numbers: ⓿❶❷❸❹❺❻❼❽❾⓫⓬⓭⓮⓯⓰⓱⓲⓳⓴, but 10 seems to be broken. Would someone else paste that for me? File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.jpg Chieftain Alex 23:28, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

❿ ⑩

See also my Symbol page, especially the last "see also" link at the bottom).

I wasn't suggesting that every tree or bridge be added to the map — just the the landmarks identified in the walk through, e.g. when it says, "stand on the bridge," it might be helpful to show that on the map. (I think you have that covered under "places to stop.") Thanks! – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 23:54, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Okay, #10 doesn't appear nicely in firefox or internet explorer 9. 11-20 appear horribly in internet explorer. Imo these therefore aren't viable as fonts.

I'm looking at room 5, if I move the exhaustion icon to where the bark is, it won't be obvious where you get affected by it imo. (most groups won't clear that one because the room is a pain in the ass) - I'm tempted to leave that marker there.

File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.jpg Chieftain Alex 11:53, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Haven't realized you were off-wiki for a week. I don't think Guardian Serpents are important enough to be displayed at the map, because they are always at the front of each gate, they are no threat and if still persisting, I would prefer you create a mini-icon instead of using numbers. For each section, I don't remember where but I do recall seeing sections being marked by white squares of different sizes. If you want to show "A place to...", I would like to suggest an extra zoomed in map inside a legend, like when a reader hovers the mouse pointer, he/she would be able to see a map without overlapping marks. Finally great you are into this because after I read about the coodinates X-Y to move icons...it felt was going to be a real pain for me. Yoshida Keiji talk 12:00, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

I've restored the urgoz map to the original non-interactive-map-product one, although the old 2007 one is pretty bad quality.

I'm wondering if its possible to produce transparent tables of a fixed width and height and have them appear on top of the rest of the map to outline rooms similar to File:Urgoz's Warren map.jpg. I'll investigate. (I'd prefer white borders on the table - then I can remove those ugly blue room numbers)

Alternatively, I could upload a transparent image of white boxes similar to the red breadcrumbs to label the rooms. I'd need my other pc though >.> File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.jpg Chieftain Alex 14:59, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Good stuff. (I do think it's useful to see the serpent locations because they mark the borders between rooms — again, this might be obvious to veterans of the run, but it's not at all clear to newbies or even journeyman players.) – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 17:50, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Post-rectangles and text walkthrough

While I'm not that familiar with the end of Urgoz, I think my text description is pretty good also. Any other opinions on layout? Also, if Yoshida could verify my walkthrough I can rewrite the main Urgoz's Warren walkthrough from where we last stopped. File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.jpg Chieftain Alex 10:01, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I had to backtrack this by following your contributions, this is because I have lost Recent Changes entries due to retarded spamming (and I wish we could have a list for 1.000 entries instead of only 500). I will do this: I will write my own Urgoz's Warren walkthrough (a.k.a.: Safe-way and include a team build in PvX), then I will compare since I expect method focus will be different. This is because of the edits after The Deep revisions, I don't share much of your last touches but it was an extended review and by the end I didn't want to go for it again. Once I have my version done, we can discuss changes for the main article while I conserve my own way. Yoshida Keiji talk 08:03, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

One thing I've been doing when I believe there's an appropriate walkthrough that won't meet consensus is write my own guide and then point people to it as an alternative. Typically, I've resisted linking them from the mainspace (with the exception of the Nick guide, because that got a lot of traffic and a lot of people asked about it). However, I think it would be good for the wiki to link to player guides slightly more often than the default of "never," especially for elite areas. For a lot of objectives, player guides are just e-peen or custom alternatives that make sense for a limited style of gameplay. But that's not necessarily true for every walkthrough.

I don't know if that's appropriate for Urgoz or if that even appeals to you, but I hope it's worth considering. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 08:33, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that is exactly what I meant to say. I will make my own guide. Now if it will be linked from the Elite Area main space or not will need consensus. But I will do my version first and then see the rest. Yoshida Keiji talk 08:43, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Ah, great. I look forward to reading your version. (Be happy to comment on it, too, if you like.) – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 09:23, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks

Just thought I'd say thanks for the huge update of the map i never thought there would be such a huge response from everyone. I managed to kill all the mobs in room 7 ok it was just when all the mobs spawned in room 10 overwhelmed me because i thought the mobs wasn't in this section of the map as it said to leave the hero behind further on as i presumed the icon indicated was exactly where to leave them. Ultrametroid 21:15, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Heroes tend to wander if you don't disable their skills, I'd recommend flagging heroes much further back. I've added this to the hover-notes. Also thanks for the praise <3, this is my favourite interactive map :) File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.jpg Chieftain Alex 23:24, 18 August 2012 (UTC)