User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Overpowered Skills/General/Archive 2

Heroway in Heroes Ascent

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The 4 Man, 4 Necro Hero build is taking over HA right now - it's so common that there teams waiting through multiple cycles of the Hall in the waiting room to get in with the build. As far as I can tell this version of heroway beats all of the standard gimmicks, and the hero builds take advantage of the hero AI quirks where they significantly outperform players - infusing spike damage, interrupting, microing spells on the minions. In the last couple days HoH has degenerated to a new low from all of the hero teams. It needs immediate attention, as the format wasn't very healthy even before this development. -Ensign 09:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Heroway isn't very hard to counter. Plenty of teams are running a taint to counter a large portion of their pressure, and heroways are extremely weak against hexes, usually only having one hex removal in the whole team. There's no way that heroes outperform humans in reacting to spike damage, they are near useless against spikes, especially ones like Ancestor's Rage/Spirit Rift spikes that require precise protting and at least two human monks to effectively counter. Not to mention, heroes have to be micromanaged on maps other than annihalation and sometimes kill count. Though the biggest counter seems to be AoEs; heroes are quickly destroyed with things like Savannah Heat builds. While running a balanced team with 2 dervishes and a Splinter Weapon rit, a few heroes decided to stand together, and literally died in 3 seconds. Fun. 220.101.180.184 11:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not gonna lie, I personally have held halls on a number of occassions with heroes - hell even beaten KGYU with the same hero build. BUT, my hero build is not this 4 man, 4 Necro build. Infact, every time I go into HA with my hero build opposed to theirs, we roll them in 2 minutes. So basically I am saying that this isn't that big of a problem - and I think this is more of a build problem more than a hero - because I run 1 Fire Ele, 1 Barbs Necro, an RC Monk, Myself on Sin, A friend running a sin on himself and a Divert Hexes Monk, A Human fire ele, and a human LoD monk and we have taken halls about 4 times inbetween AT matches where we have won by forefits while running heroes. So I don't think this heroway is as much of a problem as it seems - other hero builds absolutely roll it, and the halls meta has changed with bonders and such to absolutely destroy it. Heroes may have their benefits, but I think their weakness outshine it. Also, as a further testament that heroes aren't really the problem: I've taken what was known as "Java's Hero Build" from HB back in the day consisting of 1 Sin, 2 N/Rt with rit healing spells and hexes, and a rit with brutal weapon and spirit spam winning 40 consec in TA. So I think even if heroes were removed, good humans can EASILY replace the roll of heroes in the same build with even more success. Kenshin 23:32, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Ya'll couldn't have missed his point more. The build isn't infallible (it will roll unprepared teams, but is still manageable) - his point was that it's everywhere. So many teams are running this it keeps real teams in The Vault waiting for a HoH match between all the unranked heroway groups going in. Waited over an hour in The Vault on saturday because of that crap :/ -Auron 11:09, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Right, the point isn't that the build is unbeatable or anything, because it clearly is (I've beaten it consistently when playing on human teams with real builds). It's that hero teams are good enough that they do beat a lot of the weaker human teams in halls, and that the percentage of hero teams in HoH has been exploding in the last couple of weeks. Running into the occasional hero team is one thing; playing against 4 heroes in a majority of your matches is another entirely. I would wager there are more serious hero teams in HA now than player groups. In a game really struggling to find some sort of entry point to more serious PvP, HA turning into a co-op hero battles is not a good development. -Ensign 20:29, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm working on this issue, I have a few things in the works from HA changes, and I'm looking at AI and skill interaction I understand it's a huge problem. ~Izzy @-'---- 20:40, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Care to share what potential things are in the works for HA? I think a great deal of HA players would love to hear that something is in the works, assuming there actually is. The whole heroway problem could be fixed by limiting the number of heroes you can field in GvG and HA to 2. So they might actually have to take a human player to play the necro/rit healers or perhaps the hex necro, that alone would reduce the effectiveness of the build since humans are prone to more mistakes in their skill useage when under pressure. As i see it you shouldnt nerf skills because of their effectiveness in the hands of hero AI, just take away the presence of heroes in game types where their superiority is less desirable ie. HA and GvG. (AI will always have faster reaction times and hex and minion management than human players due to human limitations and our need to use an interface to interact with the game)87.194.81.41 23:04, 26 July 2007 (UTC) Lorekeeper

I am not much in to PvP but I have to listen to a guild mate complain about hero way almost every day. And my simple question to this problem is: why are players allowed to bring Heroes in to GvG / HA? Its PvP right? PvP = player versus player NOT player versus NPC! Remove heroes from HA and GvG and be done with it so players start to play real PvP again.. If HA and GvG have problems because not enough ppl are playing it the problem should not be solved by allowing heroes to fill up the party window, but change accessibility of PvP. Since I am not a pro on PvP I won’t make any suggestions. But to me the solution for the HA hero way problem is an easy one: remove Heroes form PvP! Now Izzy… that was really hard to figure out eh? And it wont require any skill changes or AI re inventions. ~Garbaron~ 27 July 2007

It's not that simple, especially in GvG's since the start of the AT's. At times a guild needs to be able to take a hero along to replace a Guildmember that has had to leave mid-way through what can be a very long tournament. Hero's in HA is a different matter and although it would be possible to remove them i dont think he will. HA has other problems at the minute, and i hope that the changes he is talking about will really shake things up there, because for one, i'm totally bores of this new HA we have now! Bring back 6v6! Make it unique again!--ChronicinabilitY 10:41, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Don't bring back that 8v8/6v6 discussion again, party size frankly doesn't matter. I liked 6v6 because it didn't take as long setting up parties, but builds can be infinitely more complex with 8v8 (although people don't ever make creative HA builds, they just run the latest gimmick they saw on obs). I'll make a new section for general HA discussion (as that chatter alone can get huge very quickly), and leave this one to discuss heroway.

On topic, Chronicinability's point is right that people who need filler for gvg/HA should be able to use a hero or two (say your ele leaves and you don't want to spend an hour finding a replacement, getting him on vent, getting his bar ready etc). But there should be a limit - one or two tops. One might not be enough, but nobody should ever need more than 2 heroes. -Auron 10:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

But guys. We are talking about Player versus Player! It did work before Heroes where introduced. IMO it was a mistake to allow Heroes to infiltrate PvP in the first place. If the ATS can only hold up by the use of Hereos… then the current design is flawed and needs reworking. Remove Heroes form a game style that by definition should only be player vs player aka Human vs Human with NO NPCs involved. It really IS that simple. The problem as I see it is that the Mehta game has already adapted to the Heroes and noone wants to let go of the “cookie cuter builds” that use them because they are efficient and guarantees success. If you want things in HA / GvG to revert back to normal… you must give up on Heroes entirely. And as I see it, Heroes do NOT belong into a PvP environment (HB is different since it was designed that way). ~Garbaron~ 27 July 2007

Hero's need a tweak, yes...banning completely, no! The current meta isn't just down to the hero's, its also down to an IMBA game atm regarding hexes, and lack of counters. I've ran this build a few times with 7 people (only hero was tainted flesh cos its such a boring job no-one would do it) and we still made it to halls a couple of times and were actually better suited on Relic Runs and such as we had more control than a normal 'Heroway' I think the answer is either changing the req's for HA to 6 human players (2 hero's) or keep it at 4 and drop it back to 6v6 (PLEASE!) On the other side of the issue, the build itself needs looking at as it is very IMBA!--ChronicinabilitY 11:26, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

No, see, It IS that easy, It's PLAYER VS PLAYER. Why should there be AI? It makes absolutely no sense to anyone with half a brain. As for "oh well what if we need one more person" Use the henchmen with mediocre skill sets. Heroes need to be done away with in GvG and HA, simple as that.--TheLordOfBlah 23:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. That's why there is HvH, for playing with Heroes. If you want Heroes, go there....HA and GvG should just be Players vs Players, not Players vs a couple guys + heroes. -- Fenix 08:28, 1 August 2007 (UTC)