User talk:Khomet/Paragon skill changes

Author's note: Some of the skill suggestions shown here come from the following threads on Guild Wars Guru.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/dear-arenanet-please-expedite-paragon-t10441769.html

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/paragon-needs-redesign-t10479090.html

Genius. Pure genius. I could love you right now.:::Ardangoeswiki 16:16, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

What if the duration of Shouts/Chants/Echoes can be stacked, but their effectiveness does not stack? For example, if a 10 second regeneration chant was placed on an ally with 5 seconds of regeneration still remaining, that ally would not gain extra regeneration but the chant would have 15 seconds remaining? --Falconeye 01:16, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes that's the idea. Shouts and chants that are identical will overlap in the same way that enchantments overlap. The only problem with this model (if it is a problem at all) is that the first shout or chant will not 'end' when the second gets applied on top of it. This could affect refrains because they are only refreshed when shouts or chants actually end. For the motivation skills this means that an active Song of Restoration or Aria of Restoration has its normal effect, and additional copies of this skill would just overlap the first without having any additional effect. This mechanic already exists in the game so it isn't really part of my suggestions, I just thought it would be good to use it in order to balance the perception of 'overpowered' motivation skills. I don't know if adding duration (as opposed to simply overlapping) would be easy to code into the game. I'm just hoping that some of these changes make it into gw1 before gw2 arrives.  :-\ Khomet 13:08, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

A lot of these suggestions imply that you've forgotten how ridiculous paragons were when nightfall came out. Aggressive Refrain didn't always have a drawback; it was added because it was kinda ridiculous. Besides, paragons still have 86 AR, which is more than enough for a midliner. Reducing agg refrain's cost to 15 would herald the return of such ridiculousness.

The problem paragons have always had is that they get in a good spot for a single paragon running a few shouts/chants and then they're utterly broken when players bring two or more of them. There was a time, if you remember, when eight paragon teams dominated halls.

Also, Centurion's triggers off agg refrain and is thus maintainable. Even without it, your team should have a few other shouts and chants; and even if they don't, a temporary -10 armor won't hurt you much, since you're a paragon.

-- Armond Warblade 17:13, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

The only advantage that Aggressive Refrain has over other forms of IAS is energy; in PvE you activate it once and it stays up forever. Most other IAS require some energy to maintain though skills like Heart of Fury and Flail give permanent IAS for no energy at all. The -20 armor is just adding insult to injury; warriors can have AL116+ against any type of damage, dervishes can have AL from 83 to 103 depending on mysticism and insignia, rangers can have AL80 (115 vs. elemental) depending on insignia. Even assassins get AL85 with nightstalker's insignia. You're saying that paragons should have the lowest armor level of any attacker (including rangers) even though they are using shields and the others are not... that is not balanced at all.
re: multiple paragons dominating halls, there have always been problems with multiples of any type of character, perhaps you remember IWAY, rspike, bloodspike, invoke spike, and the current triple dervish teams? My suggestions give the paragon new vulnerabilities (daze) and should eliminate the chant chaining that led to many of the problems you remember.
re: overpowered suggestions... this isn't 2007, and most other professions have received much needed buffs while paragons have received nothing but nerfs since their introduction. Most of this happened before the PvP/PvE split and the paragon still suffers from these decisions while the ritualist, mesmer, necromancer and dervish have been buffed into positions of power. Khomet 19:11, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Paragons are still an amazing class in PvE; in PvP I have my doubts that they'll ever be in a good place unless ANet makes the sensible decision to only allow a character to benefit from one chant at a time. IWAY, rspike, etc, have all had problems with class stacking; the difference is that warriors, rangers, necros, etc, have shown that they have their place on a balanced team as well. I don't recall paragons being in that sort of a place for very long, and as long as chants and shouts stack infinitely I don't think they will be.

When calculating the armor of other classes, you completely forgot to add +100 for being in a group with a paragon. So, yeah, I'm completely fine with the paragon having the lowest AL in the game, even before SY. It's not like paragons die as it is.

When paragons were released, they were so far above and beyond the other classes that the series of nerfs ever since has been completely justified. Just because something's nerfed doesn't make it bad. -- Armond Warblade

So your argument is that paragons should be weak because Save Yourselves is strong? How sad that the paragon's existence depends on a Warrior PvE skill. Your argument does nothing for paragons in PvP, which are as rare as unicorns these days. Khomet 19:52, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Also, you should check out {{gr}} - it looks like you're estimating the number ranges on some skills, and that template does all that for you. It also looks nicer.

-- Armond Warblade 19:28, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

thanks, will do. IMO the exact numbers don't matter that much... Anet makes those decisions, I am just giving some suggestions. Khomet 19:52, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Also also, I disagree with making heroes spam anthems to maintain AR. For one, if they have any other IAS, that just makes anthems a liability since they'll incorrectly prioritize it over other skills (especially while running); for another, it's not hard to micro anthems; finally, it's easy enough to maintain AR with FB/charge/incoming/tntf/any other shout. -- Armond Warblade 19:30, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

this suggestion was only for Anthem of Weariness, though Incoming/FB/Charge should also be used on recharge imo. it's just a matter of convenience. Khomet 19:52, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

The suggestion I made for Incoming! mind, should only affect a single target (cost reduced to compensate of course), or if it's going to be all targets in the team, have a really long (60 second or so) cooldown, else with the current numbers in the suggestion, 4 Paragons could chain it for complete team invulnerability. 82.11.227.226 21:11, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Fixed, I lowered the duration and increased the recharge so that you would need 10 paragons to chain it... though I am not sure if this is really an issue, if complete invulnerability were a problem Anet would have nerfed shadowform by now... :) Khomet 21:57, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Due to Shield Guardian update, your version could be something like this.

Defensive Anthem 15 1 20

Elite Chant. (20 seconds) Allies within earshot have 75% chance to block. Ends on each affected ally after blocking 1...4...5 hits. End effect: Allies in earshot are healed for 10...34...40.

--Falconeye 21:10, 2 August 2011 (UTC)