Feedback talk:User/Aquadrizzt/Skill rebalance/Assassin

Since you requested some feedback from of me to improve your "ways" here is a suggestion from me of how to improve them.

• Way of Perfection: You are healed for 10...30...35 whenever you hit with an attack. Whenever you critical hit you lose 1 hex. Ends after 5 attacks.

• Way of the Fox: Your attacks are unblockable. Whenever you critical hit you inflicts burning condition (1...4...5 second[s]). Ends after 5 attacks.

• Way of the Lotus: You gain 1...2...2 energy whenever you hit with an atack. Whenever you critical hit you gain 1...8...10 energy. Ends after 5 attacks.

Don't try to put too many functions into your skills, especialy your elite skills. For the IAS skill keep them limited to 25%, the dagger already has a fast attack rate and it will be very difficult to time dagger attacks with an attack speed for 33%.

Also Jagged Strike, Fox Fangs and Death Blossom don't need a change since they are already popular and see plenty of use. You should also be careful that you don't push the damage numbers too high, i see alot of 40 in lead attacks and 50 in dual attacks. Keep he damage of dual attacks at a maximum of 40 and the lead attacks at a maximum of 20, off-hand attacks are best kept at a maximum of 30. Da Mystic Reaper 13:14, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the help with ways; they now provide a very assassin-y feeling to a skill type. I'm trying to make elite skills feel like more than just scaled up non-elites and this sometimes makes the elite skills have a lot of effects. I am using the Dervish forms as an upper limit in skill complication, although I might not always been completely successful. I've left JS/FF/DB all unchanged now and scaled down attack speed and bonus damage boosts for most skills. (On the subject of damage boosts, they now will deal bonus damage of the same type as the weapon, except in special situations; i.e. dagger skills will cause physical [probably slashing] damage.) Once again, thank you for all of your assistance and criticism, it really helps. Aqua (talk) 19:39, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Put some thought into Shadow Form ...please.

A skill usable by many if not all even as a second profession is a useful tool. Not just an exploit. Shadow form to give energy makes no sense. Even just changing the energy cost makes it harder without breaking it's usefulness. A shadow is blocked light. Light is energy. What about shadow form makes sense as an energy management skill to GIVE energy. Perhaps even something like keeping it the same and making it the only non-upkeep skill to give -1 energy regen would work and make more sense as far as shadows. Balance is one thing, total change is another and should only be a last resort once other problems are 'fixed'(many of which probably never will) Durp da durp 18:24, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure what this is in response to, given that my current skill description for Shadow Form is:

Shadow Form

5 1 15 Elite Enchantment Spell. For 5...17...20 seconds, you

Perhaps you are thinking of DMR's proposed change of Shadow Form?

Shadow Form

5 1 20 Elite Enchantment spell (60 seconds). You gain 1 energy whenever your attacks hit. You are healed for 5...41...50 whenever you use an attack skill. While attacking you take 1...12...15 less damage.

To address the part that could be applicable to my suggestion ("Balance is one thing, total change is another and should only be a last resort".) I am doing a complete overhaul because I realized that a partial overhaul of certain professions (mesmer, ele, dervish) has left the other professions (especially paragon and smiting monks) in the dust. By reinforcing the profession specific abilities through various methods, include total changes, I am trying to both rebalance and redesign the existing system. The current skill system has numerous flaws, I am trying to fix them in one go. Aqua (talk) 21:19, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

It's based on DMRs suggestions for balance and stated why his rework makes no sense. Thanks for some okish ideas on some like Way of the Assassin because longer length cuts recasting it but what you suggested for shadow form is a complete function change in many ways. What part of making a complete function change to a universally used skill balances thing for others? 55 still works. My monk used this and a few hours to get legendary survivor. It entirely breaks running as a sin for chests everywhere for me and also running the random others i do often for nothing or tips around all of eotn, and any common run in tyria or is the suggestion for a PvP version? There is balance then there is a complete function change, teleportation was already similar to shadow stepping. If i wanted gw2 skills i would play gw2. Are you suggesting guns and no secondary professions as well? Durp da durp 22:55, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

First, I am not DMR and although I ask him for assistance and insight during some steps of the design process and use his ideas that go well with my own, I am not proposing the same changes he is. We pursue different creative directions, but I feel like we have the same overall goal, so there is the occasional overlap.

Second, I'm a bit surprised that you are complaining that I've given Shadow Form a complete function change... A vast majority of the skills in my proposal have faced at least a minor function or design change and a large portion have been completely reworked. But back to Shadow Form: it is universally used because its gimmicky and horribly unbalanced, and has always been like that, even after the change that made is a maintainable Spell Breaker with cheaper cost, faster recharge, more useful attribute and with other bonuses. Assassins are the player-meta solely for that skill; when one skill is able to determine all challenge PvE meta builds (dungeons, elite missions, etc.), it eliminates what a game with over 1k skills should offer, variability. That is at the heart of my revamp, making all professions and plenty of differnet playstyles equally viable. I am completely unsympathetic if a change to Shadow Form to reduce it from god-mode status means that people will have to come up with ways to actually play the game instead of exploit around it.

Third, under my monk suggestion, 55 will play differently if it is still viable at all, due to changes to Mending, Balthazar's Spirit, and Blessed Signet as well as the removal of Essence Bond. A total skill overhaul means many existing builds will be affected.

Fourth, as a general comment on running, there are still plenty of running skills available to the Assassin that have been made even better than they are currently. Dash, Dark Escape, Feigned Neutrality, creative use of Shadow Shroud, Aura of Displacement, Shadow of Haste, Viper's and Smoke Powder Defense, Shadow Refuge. No, you will not be immune to spells for the entire run, but you will be able to survive if you use intelligent tactics and good running technique. I'm sure new runs will spring out of this, but I am being careful to not make one skill instant-god-mode lolwtfbbqwin.

Fifth, my goal is to not make GW1 into GW2. I am developing new skill mechanics to reinforce the feel of professions and to encourage various playstyles (i.e. Assassins are the critical hit people, so their skills should focus around that, etc.). I am not suggesting guns and I am not suggesting no secondary professions because I think that both of those, especially the latter, were a step down from GW1. The new skill types are intentionally left open-ended (i.e. some tricks function on attack skills regardless of weapon, incantations [from monk suggestion] function on all spells that target other allies) in order to encourage and faciliate creative primary and secondary profession use.

tl;dr: I am not DMR. I dislike the insta-godmode that is Shadow Form and I am aiming to end its reign over all elite area meta builds. I want to encourage variability within professions as well as cross professions while also reinforcing the underlying ideas of professions. I believe that running and farming should never be prioritized over skillful and intelligent play. And I'm not trying to make GW1 into GW2, because I think that GW2 took several steps down from GW1s hypothetical skill bar freedom. Aqua (talk) 23:53, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

"I am removing over PvX 250 skills from the game in this proposal. Functions of existing skills need to be differentiated and edited to accommodate the scaling down" Sounds like less skills as in gw2. Tricks/Incantations? Hmmm... GW2. Rebalance is one thing, a complete change in the basic function is another. SF as it is is far from god-mode, nearly every one of those OP SC teams and dungeon runners rely on certain PvE only skills and/or cons. If they do take any of these suggestions into consideration for a future update it will only serve as ringing a death bell for gw1. Gw2 is definitly not up to par with gw1 but gw1 has a sense of stability. If u want huge changes go ahead and play gw2 which you say you don't like and yet many of the suggestions both you and DMR have made seem to be restyling the gw1 professions to be MORE LIKE GW2. Changing balance in gw1 at this late in the game should not include complete function changes. You say the sin is a crit machine yet most skills like Way of the Assassin are nearly exactly the same function just with different numbers. Dash buffed? Like it needs it, as if beating the 33% boost cap isn't powerful enough. " I also dislike maintained enchantments " says it best but you left out MAINTAINABLE. SF on a non sin is under a 1 second recast window. It's NOT easily maintained without good energy management. Yes SF builds are the current meta for many things but is removing nearly every meta build a good idea? Buffing other classes to make them more viable for more purposes might help more than completely changing something useful to everyone. You said it before that you doubt any of these changes will make it into an update, I'm just saying some are ok but the complete function changes of some skills totally destroy gw1 as it has been for years. If you find this much wrong with the skills in gw1 why do you still play it? Also if the current state of all these skills annoys you does anything force you to use them? Durp da durp 19:26, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm...seeing that i have been mentioned a couple of times regarding my own Assassin skill suggestion, mainly about SF, let me say the reason why i suggested a change for it: it's to remove the backbone of that troublesome farming skill wich had ruined the GW1 economy. About the tricks i added, it's primarily for a change to Deadly Arts and make it a more offensive oriented utility attribute. About the function of SF, it's a bar compression skill offering healing, energy management and defense and is useful for secondary professions as well. I did put some thought into it and to have a skill to counter spells i changed Shroud of Silence. Da Mystic Reaper 20:21, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Is the skill itself the trouble with farming or is it people who use it in a certain way? Dungeon runners aren't the problem. Any class being able to run droks with practice is not the problem. All farmers aren't the problem, just some are. Like those who use SF for similar purposes as 55 monks in bergen. Totally changing the skill in itself doesn't stabilize the economy it just makes it harder for regular people to achieve most titles such as legendary survivor (of horrible lagg). The economy is mostly unstable due to people who run bots. Big changes have their place, it's called gw2. Gw1 anet said themselves is pretty much on autopilot, unfortunately the true problem of users who use 'autopilot' never got 'fixed'. Hopefully they don't take these suggestions as a whole, some are quite good, but as a whole it will only serve to drive away the people who have played gw1 for years and enjoy it as it is. Durp da durp 00:15, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

The skill itself has always been a problem even before dungeon running. Shadow Form has always been a broken skill that has always had a plaster put on it instead of being fixed properly. Dungeon runners are a problem since a dungeon is not meant to be run but meant to be played. Farming is being tolerated and Anet has let it happen up until now because most of the runners were people waiting for GW2,(who can now be found playing GW2), not farm bots. Ursan, permasin, 55, 600/smite, all of them have nerfed in the past to reduce farming, even the intoduction of Dhuum to reduce UWSC and visibly take care of bots.

I take your survivor argument as invalid because survivor can be easily achieved without SF, but i take your running argument as a valid argument since this is a widely used runner build usable for all professions. But that build just needs a simple (hex)spell counter to work, not an IDDQD skill. Da Mystic Reaper 18:57, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, they have made changes to reduce the effectiveness over the years but the skill itself was still similar they removed one function and changed it so anyone could use it. Dungeon runners are a problem but most dungeon runs require cons already and most also rely on those PvE only skills that the title rank to have the maximum effectiveness was severely reduced. As i stated previously even just changing the energy cost slightly or adding a -1 energy degen while maintaining Shadow Form would break most dungeon runs. Also changing the title ranks back to as they were would mess with the ppl who reroll and start a new one to start dungeon running within a few hours of gameplay. Farming stoopid stuff like vaettir would be possible but farms such as those do not cause much, if any, economic disturbance unless it is a bot. It would make every farm using SF harder but it would not break it's usefullness for running most things like droks or chest running in most cases or be a complete change to the skill. A non upkeep skill with a degen is unusual but this skill has an exceptional history. Completely changing it's function is basically trying to forget the past.

Btw... that Dash update idea sounds useful for a VoS derv runner... or do u plan on breaking running for dervs too? Can you cast non derv enchants like DS while using Vow of Silence? Non dervs VoS is useless right? I stink at dervs. >.< For many years i just used my Necro often killing everything in Scoundrels with lots of minions while most ppl were farming with Oink, my Rit and my Sin were made shortly after Factions release but didn't get many hours until about 2 yrs ago when i finally bothered to get SoS and SF for them. My monk can't 55 and never used 600 smite either, i never tried. I still miss my first necro on my friends account from before I started mine. Fight the problem without a complete function change. Durp da durp 22:49, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

No matter how you would nerf it and how many other skills that are used in farm builds the main problem still remains Shadow Form. Many other skills other than SF have been changed in the past to reduce the effectivenes of dungeon runs but the community always managed to find a replacement, one of them is the use of cons and even that ended up being nerfed just to preserve SF. At this point you should just start wondering if all those nerfs to all those skills and consumables is really worth to preserve the function of just one skill, it never has been a proper solution to counter farming. Izzy definitly regrets making SF and due to it's popularity Anet has simply been afraid to change it, however those users are now gone so SF can now safely be changed wich should have happened years ago. I am not trying to have SF changed because i want to forget the past, it's because i am very well aware of the history it has that i want to have SF changed. That history is more than just it's popular use for farming and running but also the many nerfs it has caused to other skills and the large inflation to the GW economy causing prices to sky-rocket forcing other people to grind their titles and to farm ectos if they wanted to buy something of value, items that had a rare value in the past lost their value because they ended up being over farmed. The survivor title also lost much of it's prestige because of SF, the rest is thanks to dwarven brawling. The history of Shadow Form is indeed exceptional, no other skill in the history of Guild Wars has had such a large negative impact on the game than Shadow Form. Da Mystic Reaper 23:59, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

[Reset indent] If SF is the main problem why change every skill? As i proposed sure, it does not break everything, but would a function change to just SF such as i stated break most of the true problem? You didn't address the comment about the title rank change. Not everything was done to reduce the effectiveness, and as you said MOST of them are gone now. I believe without maxing those titles and a small change to SF MOST of the problem would be 'fixed' especially if the PvE skills required the max rank. There are still new players in gw1 but should their experience here not include a similar sense of the original game? Most new players just want to do their HoM for gw2 SF can be a useful tool if used well and not as an exploit.Durp da durp 17:56, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

"If SF is the main problem why change every skill?". "..and due to it's popularity Anet has simply been afraid to change it.." is the reason i already mentioned why Shadow Form remains unchanged and other skills and items around it got nerfed.

"You didn't address the comment about the title rank change.", -> Title skills are not a problem so i have no reason to comment about them.

"Most new players just want to do their HoM for gw2 SF can be a useful tool if used well and not as an exploit.", -> You already said the problem yourself, if used well and not as an exploit. No other skill in the game has been as much exploited as Shadow Form so that is an "if" that will never happen, and their is no guarantee that new players won't exploit it, and be reasonable you know it yourself that Shadow Form has a much bigger chance of being exploited than it being not.

And for the new players who should experience the original game, you have no idea how much work it will be to restore the game to it's level of balance, skills and economy during 2007/2008, the time period wich is considered as the Original game. People who played the game during those years know that Shadow Form was not yet exploited as a farming skill, it became popular after Ursan got nerfed and people started experimenting with new farming builds. You and i both know that it is something that will never happen and that new players who want to fill up their HoM will never experience the original GW. Da Mystic Reaper 18:38, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

[edit]Yeah but it was used to farm. Ppl did get annoyed and the change was made. As for "Title skills are not a problem so i have no reason to comment about them." What meta build that you see as a problem does not rely on them too? How often do either of you play in gw1 now? Who is left in game who was the problem? I'm not against changes, it just annoys me this is the one skill of so many most ppl remember Izzy for. He did do lots of good ones too. Wasn't SF only really a problem once more skills got added? Nobody can see the future or remember every detail of everything. If nothing else he tried to do good things and must have been a nice guy. Sorry if it brought up a sore note in history but one of u called it a thought exercise. And yes i was in game for years.Durp da durp 00:28, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

"As for "Title skills are not a problem so i have no reason to comment about them." What meta build that you see as a problem does not rely on them too?" Ivé been trying to make it clear to you but it seems like i need to say it again, almost all of those meta builds you speak of are SF farming builds (remaining ones are 600/smite, 55 and ele vaetirr). The problem stays SF and not the title skills, and i'm not trying to push the blame to just SF, SF is simply the main problem if you like it or not. I understand you don't want to see it changed since you seem to be a farmer yourself, seeing how vigorously you are defending SF and not wanting to have it's function changed even though you know the problems. Since this discussion is going on for too long already let me say this: Aqua likes to see it changed, i like to see it changed and you don't like to see it changed. Since it's Aqua's skill suggestion he may suggest anything he likes and that includes a changes to SF. Suggestions are the prefered changes that a person would like to see, it is nothing more than a person's opinion wich should always be respected. Aqua likes to see Shadow Form changed and you may voice your opinion about it but unlike we 2 fools did do not make a discussion out of it and trying to force/prevent a change. Let's end our discussion with this. Da Mystic Reaper 19:31, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Temple Strike

What's up with Temple strike? If you make it a lead attack that costs five energy with a recharge of 10, then don't make it an non-downside Blackout followed by a permanent daze...every single sin in RA will run that 'rebalanced' skill that way... SuperRobertWa 21:54, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, thinking about it that won't work too well. I was trying to play with the idea that a hit to the temple knocks out and disorients. Here's my new idea for it:

Temple Strike

10 1 15 Elite Lead Attack. Interrupts an action. For 3...9...10 seconds, target foe is knocked down the next 1...3...3 times they are the target of an attack skill.

The power of elites is higher than usual because my entire proposal focuses on making elite skills both unique and bar defining; two players with different elites should be using significantly different tactics and builds. Also thank you for the feedback, constructive criticism helps me focus and develop my suggestion further and I really appreciate it. Aqua (talk) 22:12, 25 March 2013 (UTC)