Feedback talk:User/Silverdawn/Taking energy one step further

On resource consumption and restoration

I enjoyed reading your treatise, but I don't agree with your specific suggestions. I would be interested seeing more about how you might tweak the suspected costs of various actions.

There's no conceptual difference between leaving an outpost without enough energy management skills and leaving without energy potions. Energy is a finite resource which requires replenishing; it doesn't care how it gets restored. The big difference between pots and skills is what you sacrifice: pots sacrifice inventory slots (and cash) while energy skills sacrifice skill slots. (One thing that makes GW1 interesting is the number of skills that don't fit a single category: there are a few skills that help manage energy while buffing/debuffing/doing some damage; pots won't provide that type of mixed use.)

You compare GW1 and GW2 in some interesting ways, but you forgot to mention that GW2 is massively multiplay: that has big impact on what constitutes in combat and how safe it is to move in/out of battle. That type of environment forces the designers to find ways to ensure that all players are self-sufficient: you have to have self-heal and self-defense; you have to have skills that depend on items, profession, and abilities. I'm not saying the GW2 team did this perfectly; I'm saying the tradeoffs were more complicated than just how blue (or red) bar regenerates.

So, I think the more interesting parts of your article are your comments about energy costs: what types of things ought to cost blue bar and by how much. Should dodging cost energy? or some other resource? (It certainly costs you initiative: if you're dodging, you aren't doing something else.) I would be interested in reading more of your ideas along this avenue. — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 00:16, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

There is a very important conceptual difference: potions are consumables and energy managment skills are not. When you use an energy management skill, it will come back on its own. When you use all your potions, they don't come back on their own - you're stuck without the energy management the devs assumed you had when they balanced the encounter. In the middle of a boss fight, the last thing I want to do miss the action because I have to map back to town to buy potions.

My intention wasn't to provide a comprehensive comparison between GW1 and GW2, but to show the reasons behind the evolution of energy from GW1 to GW2, and ultimately why it should continue on that path to arrive at something similar to my suggestion. But, sure, I'll elaborate on what should and should not use energy:

Dodging and healing are easy, convenient damage countermeasures that serve to make the game more forgiving, but don't contribute to the tactical positioning-and-control ideal that the game aspires to. They are meant to get you out of a tight spot when positioning and control fails, not replace positioning and control as the primary damage countermeasure. Since dodging and healing is easier and requires less forethought (and is therefore naturally preferable to) positioning and control, they need to be limited in some way to prevent them from taking center stage. An energy cost is a great way to do this because it allows for some degree spamming or measured use over time to allow dodging and healing to do its job, but does provide an eventual limit to prevent abuse. Damage, control and support should not cost energy because they contribute to the kind of gameplay the devs want to encourage. A player should not be penalized for playing his character correctly by being made helpless by an exhausted energy reserve, especially considering there will be no auto-attack in Guild Wars 2. Energy in Guild Wars 2 should not be seen as fuel for skills, but rather as a reserve to protect you from mistakes.

Remember, a big reason for energy costs in Guild Wars was to add some depth to a character building system that gave players incredible freedom. Characters in Guild Wars 2 will be largely pre-built and pre-balanced. Cooldowns should be enough to prevent people from spamming the most powerful abilities and encourage thoughtful use of skills. In other words, the reasons that a conventional energy system was necessary in Guild Wars just doesn't exist in Guild Wars 2. --Silverdawn 04:36, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Potions aren't meant as energy suppliment

Potions are not ment to suppliment energy in combat, as it is on the wiki and stated by the developers potions will take much longer to recharge in combat and will be on a shorter cooldown out of combat. In short this means that you will enter a battle with full or sufficient energy and potions will not be a considerable resource during a fight. There is a large pool of energy to encourage the use of faster recharging skills (or low cooldown) allowing a more action intense game. Forcing players to use skills during the optimal time or face a long cooldown isn't fun and is not what they have been aiming for. The larger energy pool also allows prolonged fights or extended fights and again encourages alot of action. I'm not dissagreeing with everying your saying but energy is still nessisary in the game because it allows a low cooldown on skills while encouraging skillful use of the energy pool and this will lead to constant action and a more fun gaming experience. Porcelain1 20:40, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Energy by its very nature is a limiter. If you don't have enough of it, you can't use skills that require it. That's how it works, that's what it does. The more intense the battle, the more energy even a skilled player will be forced to use. If you use more energy than you regenerate, you will eventually run out. In other words, if the fight goes on to long, characters will become exhausted and will need to take a break. However, the devs allow players to suppliment their character's energy in combat with an energy potion. I say this because even with the longer recharge, the developers still allow (and expect) you to use potions in combat. This energy boost is just like extra energy regeneration that is available on demand, which is an important resource that I can almost guarantee won't be overlooked by the developers when they balance their encounters. If you use more potions than you can buy/gather, you will eventually run out. Then you will be forced to take a big break. If "constant action" is what you value, the energy mechanic, and especially the potion mechanic, is not for you. --Silverdawn 09:52, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

My Suggestion

Here's what I think: The first five skills, which are your weapon skills (or backpack/weapon kit skills, if playing as an engineer), should have no energy cost. And the last five skills should have an energy cost...so healing, utility skills, and elite skills would use up energy. Also, dodging would still use energy. --Rkpaddy 05:24, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

What are the reasons behind your suggestion? --Silverdawn 09:54, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Energy Signet?

I understand everything you've said perfectly and agree with it, but before you complain about the cons of Diablo's potion system I'd like to point out that it does have pro's that I feel GW lacks. In Diablo II LOD in high end areas, reliance on potions meant you couldnt go to sleep in combat, you were constantly on edge, paranoid of dying ( as pretty much every Diablo II skill is a spike of some sort.) This contrasts sharply with a deep run I did the other day where I was pretty much asleep with spirits doing the work ( this will probably be turrets in GW2.) So although this is health in Diablo II, it can represent energy too. I suggest that to keep players alert, there needs to be a way of regaining it very quickly at some cost. You dislike potions conceptually and economically, so here is my suggestion based upon the principals of DII. We already have a heal skill, so why not give us a recover energy skill powered by recieving damage. If you take alot of damage you can regain some energy and deal alot back, balancing out some other gameplay issues. My idea probably is flawed, but with a bit of tweaking, I'm sure one of you could get an energy signet spell figured out perfectly...212.139.240.44 18:04, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

An "energy signet" would be perfectly fine in my opinion. It loses the consumable nature and gets a feel that is more in line with the background of the franchise, but it is important to note that signets have changed from GW1 to GW2. In the former, they were skills that lacked an energy cost and were balanced by a longer cooldown or activation time. In the latter, they are skills that provide a passive benefit until triggered for an active benefit. It would not be out of place to have an energy signet that provided an energy regeneration bonus until triggered for an energy point bonus. That being said, it is more suited for an "energy-as-fuel-for-skills" rather than an "energy-as-buffer-for-mistakes" mentality. You need more fuel for skills if you run out of energy because otherwise the game stalls and you are forced to endure painful seconds of being helpless while wailed upon by your foe, so an energy signet would make sense. However, from an energy-as-mistake-buffer perspective, it makes no sense to refill low energy at a faster pace than normal regeneration because having no energy doesn't prevent you from playing flawlessly and dominating your foe - it just means that you've got no more tricks to get you out of making a mistake. In a hypothetical, perfect "energy-as-mistake-buffer" system like what I think the devs have in mind as ideal, a perfect player wouldn't even use energy.

On a side note, the builds that allow you to sleep in combat were a side-effect of the immense freedom players had in GW1 that allowed them to make overpowered builds. This kind of freedom won't exist in GW2, so I doubt you'll have much time to snooze (even with engineers, the new turret class). Controling and kiting tactics are also much more satisfying than "mash X to stay alive" mechanics, and they seem to be important in GW2 already. I think that GW2 has already solved the problems adressed by Diablo potions, and without the sore hands. --Silverdawn 06:24, 29 June 2011 (UTC)