Talk:"There's Nothing to Fear!"/Archive 1

Suggestions for change.

It seems unlikely, considering how nasty the change to TNTF was, that Anet is going to simply revert it to its old form. They see something really dangerous in this PVE-only skill, possibly justified, possibly not. Regardless, rather than whine about it, maybe if people post suggestions for possible changes, a reasonable middle ground can be found and applied.

Here's my thought on a good compromise:

I think the 20 sec recharge would be fine if the skill were modified to add a second to the duration per rank of Leadership, rather than one per two ranks. It would still hinder */P builds (presumably the reason for this change) , would be a slight nerf to people with 12 Leadership (like me) without being as crippling, and could still be maintained fully with 16 Leadership. -- Marand 20:24, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

• /P doesn't matter really, they're only getting 4 seconds anyway, which is why it was nerfed initially to Leadership lvl it being primary attribute of the paragon. I don't think there is too much whining in here, there is some, but to us who have played the paragon since it was available - even in preview weekend - well it's really a slap in the face every time ANet finds a way to nerf us. 20secs is too much, knee-jerk reaction as I said before. Compromise would have been to make it 15/15. There are far more powerful skills out there that aren't even elites for other classes - Atrophy comes to mind. And there are 20 times more neccies out there than there are paragons.
  • I wasn't implying that there was a lot of whining here. I just believe that, if you find reason to criticise something, you should also try to provide solutions as well. With that in mind, I decided to post a possible solution and also try to encourage others to do the same. I had a similar knee-jerk reaction about it - I haven't touched Guild Wars since the patch, not even to install Eye of the North. I've been playing my paragon since October, it's been my main since creation, and I was even about to buy her obsidian armour when this happened. Trust me, I feel the same way, so I'm definitely not calling people whiners - I'd have to call myself one, too. -- Marand 20:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I have spent the last 2 days trying to consider a Motivational build again, but why would a party take a Motivational paragon when they can have another prot monk? Not only will a prot monk do more dmg with a staff attack, there simply is no motivation to take a paragon - pun intended. But let's see if ANet will read and react to what is written. It's a pity that they may not react because there aren't enough paragons to begin with, BUT then why nerf this now when there are so few anyway? -- Shaia 198.54.202.218 20:34, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello all. This is my first time contributing to such a discussion so apologies in advance if I break any wiki etiquette or any guidelines but I’d like to share my own Guild Wars story regarding this subject. I started playing this game just under a year back shortly after Nightfall came out. I was put onto the game by two juniors at the firm I work for (I guess you could say I’m one of the more senior players out there). Anyway, one of the main selling points that they pitched to me was the sense of ‘fair play’ that the folk at Arenanet used to maintain balance in the playing environment. So I gave it a shot. When I purchased Nightfall I thought I’d go with one of the new installment’s signature characters, so I opted for the Paragon. Getting into the game I quickly discovered and felt the quality and hard work that went into the game’s development so Factions and Prophecies followed shortly. However, after some changes here and there to the Paragon’s make up I found out all too quickly that I had erred in my initial choice. I would be perpetually ignored in looking to join groups. Player’s outside of Nightfall would openly laugh in the ‘all’ chat at my choice of Paragon. It got to the point where things turned rather bitter for me. I seriously started to question how founded these notions of ‘fair play’ and ‘balance’ were. And just when I was about abandon hope, we were all given a gift. Indeed Paragon players had nothing to fear because “There’s nothing to fear” was here. Ironic, yes? Suddenly, I had reason to be enthused in my choice. The skill was even adjusted, for the better, to make it somewhat more exclusive to the Paragon. I beavered away to get a respectable amount of Sunspear ranks to make the skill more viable and armed with “There’s nothing to fear” I felt assured of my place in the Eye of the North. Now, I don’t play as much as some of the more dedicated players out there but I cleared my entire calendar for the launch weekend to dedicate some solid play time to GWEN. Imagine my disappointment on the very day I install the expansion to discover my one defining skill had been halved in its effectiveness. It completely soured my GWEN experience. So much so that when I realized what had happened I promptly turned off my PC and found other ways to spend my weekend. I felt cheated. I was always under the impression that the majority of these ‘nerfs’ were made toward skills to prevent an independent player from attaining too much personal power. i.e. to stop players from becoming solo killing machines and forcing reliance on playing as a team. Here is a skill that promotes playing as a unit, that promotes other players choosing paragons as members of the group and it gets vandalized. I truly regret my initial choice of Paragon but I simply don’t have the time (and now neither the inclination) to start over. I’ll watch this space for any changes but for now my time of playing Guild Wars is at an end.

• Now let's put this into perspective for those who don't play paragons. After reading this, you may all think we are whinging about ONE skill, and how can ONE skill make the paragon. BUT, after all the nerfs to the paragon, he truly does - or did - only have ONE skill that was useful in PVE. Incoming is a joke now. Motivation is just too expensive to be of any real use if you're the only paragon there - which is all the time, I think - and the only really nice thing in there is Song of Purification and the monk has better with Restore conditions, Blessed Light to name a few. Sure spear attacks are nice, but a thumper is more effective for a party anyway - they're going to make a new shout, 'You fight like a girl' to apply to paragons! Nerfing this skill is not going to make other paragon builds come out, except for the die-hard paragons out there, may be. This skill nerf is going to push the paragon even closer to the endangered species list in GW. And in worse cases, as above, GW will lose real players completely. The current sad state of the paragon - few players, can't get into parties, can't do 1v1 in GW:EN, players leaving GW, etc - is not good, although, 'There is Nothing to Fear' is useless in 1v1 anyway. But this again points out fundamental flaws with the paragon. Perhaps this is the only class that actually has it's specific role properly defined now: that of a pure support player, not always required when there is another class around. Such a pity, cos there is nothing more inspiring than seeing those golden wings spread out in glory! Shaia --196.25.255.218 10:20, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

It would just be nice if someone actually explained the reason for the change. Other classes overusing it for damage reduction? Scale the base effect to 2 seconds rather than 4. This will still give cover for other classes for an initial massive hit (Rocktail springs to mind) while not effortlessly being used by 2 eles for almost constant cover. Plus, you can rescale it back to 10 secs recharge with this. And the suggestion above for the heal to be linked to Leadership is an excellent idea. Scale it from 20..60? If we could at least have a response from someone at Anet about this... --PantsOfGlory 15:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Players asked for a nerf to this skill, as seen here for example. Erasculio 23:23, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

• People also demand the removal and/or nerfing of paragon's only IAS skill. Just because "someone wanted it nerfed!" doesn't mean there's reason to do it. People always want to nerf the classes they don't play. "I'm rock, nerf paper, scissors is fine" -- Marand 09:14, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

"Only IAS skill"? I know at least two of them...I was linking to the arguments, not only to the statement. I agree with the nerf, anyway - both this and Agressive Refrain were/are too powerful. Erasculio 13:07, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Well I guess that in your opinion that "Go For The Eyes" is overpowered too. Sorry Erasculio, but the IAS is key to any viable Paragon skillbar for building adrenaline. With the lack of decent spear attacks, there isn't much harm in me doing some piddly 7 dmg 25% faster. Every profession has some skills that are more powerful than others (Searing Flames, Spiteful Spirit). Back on topic though, I think Izzy went overboard on this and Seed Of Life and overnerfed them. Seed of Life is off my monk's normal build, but since there isn't much better for the Paragon, TNtF has remained...Brothermallon 14:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

You mean, the ability of doing as much damage as a Sword Warrior, but from a range, with the same armor, with a permanent IAS, and earning adrenaline (and thus energy) so quickly that it allows Paragons to use high energy skills in PvP is not overpowered? o.O There has been a long discussion about this subject, one I won't bother to repeat. But to make it short, both TNtF! and Agressive Refrain needed a nerf. If TNtF! is fine now, IMO it's something that needs more testing. Erasculio 16:31, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that I clarified that Spear Skills aren't anywhere close to being on par with Sword Skills with respect to damage. I'm unqualified to discuss the ability of Paragons in PvP, I'm not sure that an extra 4 DPS is going to make or break it when it comes to PvP. As far as building adrenaline and converting it to energy goes... Give me a break, that is what Paragons do. Should warriors not get the armor penetration bonus? Should Mesmers not be able to cast faster? At 25 energy cost for Agressive Refrain, you get some DP and you need to switch to a high energy set just to cast it, and then try and get your energy back up to get shouts off to refresh it... Bringing PvP into it really just throws water on your "nerf TNtF argument" because it is a PvE skill. I'm not disagreeing that it and Seed of Life needed a nerf (they were both super-powerful), what I'm saying is that Izzy overnerfed both of them. To the point that SoL is off my monk's bar for good and that TNtF is only still on my Paragon's bar because all the other decent Paragon skills have been overnerfed. Brothermallon 16:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I used PvP as a way to show how Agressive Refrain is overpowered - if you read the above, you'll notice how I (of course) don't mention TNtF and PvP together. TNtF, as you said, was super-powerful. The current nerf feels right, but I haven't played enough with my Paragon these days to be certain. My problem isn't contesting the nerf itself - there are more than one ways to nerf a skill - but rather the players saying that TNtF should have not been nerfed, or that it should be as powerful as it used to be for Paragons. Erasculio 18:40, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Rebalancing it should have been done from any number of points, a few good ones are already mentioned by others above. The main complaint really stems from the fact that paragons had been blessed by the ANet dev's with a really great skill, so great in comparison to anything that they had at that point. It gave the paragon playing purpose again. Suddenly, we were welcomed in parties for HM and other missions. And now it's no longer a great skill, but just another one that has been nerfed. And now, we're not needed again for anything. No other class can claim to understand paragon players, all we know is nerfing. I just went through a GWEN dungeon with my paragon and 2 guildies equipped with the PVE skills. Had no troubles at all. Even when I died and wasn't rez'd. They just kept using the pve battle standards between them, and my paragon was not actually needed. And, how can you say the current nerf feels right if you haven't tried it out enough, before and after the nerf? It doesn't qualify you to judge the stance of other players, whether they say it should not have been nerfed or should be as it was. Why haven't you need playing your paragon often enough anymore? Can't find a party? -- Shaia 22:18, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Translating, the skill went from being completely overpowered to being as powerful as any other good skill is. Which is exactly what would have been expected. The problem, IMO, are Paragon players saying they need an overpowered skill, as if that were going to solve the problems Paragons have. Overpowered skills do not help the game, just as underpowered skills don't. After playing and vanquishing most of Elona with my Paragon, I noticed how absurdly overpowered "TNtF!" was. The nerf seems fine from a theorical point of view; far better than, say, seeing it "come down to 10nrg", as that would not make the skill weaker - and it had to be made weaker, given how powerful it was. The fact Paragons are not something a party has to rely on (so when a paragon dies it's not instant party wipe) is definitely a good thing.

(Oh, and Shaia, thanks for the concern behind my playing habits, but right now I'm busy playing my first Tyrian character through GW:EN - felt fitting to play the last part of GW1 with my first character - to play with my Paragon right now. I hope that answers your question.) Erasculio 22:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it may have been overpowered but the paragon is still not as well liked in parties without it. I like the welcomeness that skill gave us Paragons. Not that what they did was wrong, it just wasn't enough to correct the profession. -- Vallen Frostweaver 02:31, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

The only thing that doesn't sit well with me about the TNTF change is that with intelligent usage it doesn't really get better with Leadership. The old TNTF, with Leadership, could only be played in a purely passive manner; now that duration is much less than recharge even with Leadership, you want to use it actively; but with the longer duration you end up losing value on the heal at the end. Example: the AoE bursts from the fire creatures, with low duration you hit TNTF when the AoE starts, it protects you while you scatter, then cleans up damage at the end of the play. Longer TNTF, AoE damage comes in, you scatter, TNTF is still up, Monks LoD a couple times, throw a spot heal, then TNTF ends, the heal largely wasted most of the time. Basically under active use, each extra second of damage reduction diminishes in value (the 8th second of DR isn't nearly as valuable as the 4th), and the value of the heal diminishes the longer you have to wait for it; at a 9-11 second duration, is it really better than at a 4 second duration? -Ensign 20:54, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Battle Standards - Give it up boys and girls!

Just realised now, going through the new PVE skills....there really is less and less need for the Paragon as a class. These new Battle Standard things are going make the Paragon unnecessary at all. Thanks much ANet, think you just killed the Paragon for PVE parties. Shaia --196.25.255.218 11:55, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Not really. The Battle Standards are immobile while chants/shouts stay with a party that is on the move.Brothermallon 14:39, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Let's see for the amount of time that TNTF lasts...10secs...for any caster to cast, they have to be standing still. When you have a meat shield in front of you, you aren't really going to move. The amount of armor bonus that these things gives, means you don't have to be moving all the time. Also, the way the dungeons are populated, you would rather not move too much and aggro more groups than you need, so there is a decent amount of standing still or moving around within a battle standards range. The recharge on these things is also not very long. Who cares about a party of paragons stacking shouts on top of each other when a party of 8 can now carry 3 pve skills EACH and stack them. The nerf to TNTF seems very unbalanced in the light of these things. Looking through all these things, it seems that if TNTF was deemed irresponsibly over-powerful, then they need to nerf every other new armor bonus, skill recharge bonus pve skill that they have now introduced. Otherwise all it's saying is, we would rather you use our new PVE skills than bother with playing as a paragon or having them in your party. And that is how it feels to be a paragon right now. -- Shaia 22:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Call it quits

Well I don’t play a Paragon. Never cared for them. The guys run around in skirts for fek sakes. My advice to all paragon players is this. Salvage what you can, delete and roll yourself a nice monk or dervish. I actually feel sorry for you guys but the paragon has and always will be the whipping boy of Guild Wars. lol – yeah go for a dervish cos with 0 ss ranks you can have an ss skill that lets you spam your avatar all the time. :D Face it, the paragon was a one trick pony and that trick got taken away. Time to move on. :’( - s@ge

• Lol, s@ge. We may wear skirts, but at least it's not a potato-bag dress like the dervish has ;) --Shaia 15:36, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

If you really want to annoy them, then please point out that Dervish heroes can wear much cooler armor than they can. Nicky Silverstar 06:10, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

There's Nothing to Fear

There's nothing to fear except unnecessary skill nerfs. 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Well PvE certainly doesn't fear Paragons anymore. 58.110.136.200 12:40, 5 October 2007 (UTC)