User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Overpowered Skills/Warrior/archive 2

Hammer Bash

I'd like to see Hammer Bash take a light hit from the nerfstick. Not because of use on warriors, but because of abuse on thumpers. Hammer wars have better choices all around, the most Bash ever is on a hammer bar is a second or third knockdown skill; it has no additional damage and causes the warrior to lose all adren, so it's pretty balanced there.
However, thumpers suffer none of those drawbacks. Bash is the only adrenaline skill they carry, so the "lose all adren" part matters not. The lack of bonus damage on the skill also doesn't really matter; thumpers were never meant for DPS, they were meant for pressure - which they do too well due to the spammability of this skill.
I propose a short recharge; 3 or 4 seconds. Just enough to make it not a nonstop knockdown stream from thumpers. Crushing has 10r and Bestial has 20r, so adding a few seconds of downtime on adren gain for this skill would only balance the overly spammable knockdowns currently possible under RaO/EW.
I like the idea of thumpers as pressure, and I don't want to take it all away; but thumpers pressure too much for a mindless c-space build. As soon as thumpers take even the remotest amount of skill to play, I'll be happy. I think giving Bash a recharge would take thumpers in that direction. -Auron 02:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Thumpers were never meant for pressure. They were a game flavor choice. It just so happens that expertise makes warrior, paragon, dervish, and assassin skills cost half as much to rangers, whych is why you almost never see a R/caster. The knockdown is 1 second, and it's only every 6 hits. Don't nerf balanced skills. The problem with thumpers is RaO, which is only good when using EW with it.Shard 04:59, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

...Then what are thumpers meant for? —The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090. 05:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Learn to kill EW as needed, problem solved. --Tankity Tank 11:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

That's very nice Tank, but we are talking about the skill Hammer Bash. It indirectly nerfs RaO, giving another counter besides Edenying Rangers :/ (I once suggested that lol@me) Readem Hate Mail Goes Here 07:25, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Tank, you miss the point in that... thumpers are run in builds with traps and spirits. Spiritway, as the build is commonly called, runs anything from 5 to 10 spirits; seeing as EW has near no negative effect on you, it is pretty low on the to-kill list... and by the time your monks have managed to keep the blind from smoke/dust trap off your wars long enough for them to smash NR/tranq/roaring, NR is back up again. Killing spirits is a really ineffective counter.

Yes, thumpers are supposed to pressure; I believe I said as much in my first post. However, as I also said in my first post, they pressure too much for a mindless build; Joe Noob shouldn't be able to apply that much pressure via cspace. Giving Hammer Bash a recharge would not lessen the threat caused by Bestial/Crushing, because you'd have it charged by the time your other skills were ready, but it would lessen the stupid rate of knockdown that Thumpers currently have.

Let's compare. Joe Noob Thumper can get one knockdown off about every 11 seconds, everything considered (blind/block/snares). Hammer wars (with a non-permanent speed buff and IAS) take up to 6-7 seconds longer to charge a single knockdown (and remember, hammer wars don't cause daze) - giving Bash a recharge would balance this out a little. -Auron 08:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Adrenal skills with recharge aren't my favorite. I think balancing of RaO would be better. Tack on that 4 second recharge to any adrenal skill used while under RAO, like Rage of the Ntouka has. Would force careful timing and use of RaO and Hammer Bash to not incur penalties. Perhaps it would be a pointless change though.--Zarfol 03:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Hm... I like that alot, actually - that would prevent thumpers from abusing any other adrenal skills that don't yet fit the general thumper build but might in the future due to buffs. -Auron 08:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

EW has a huge negative effect on you - it powers thumpers, if you see thumpers and EW then kill EW.. I've played plenty of spiritway, as long as you're on top of killing spirits and you're smart enough to find something critical (like the one guy with expel, or the one guy with EW) then you won't have a problem owning that spiritway in the face. Spiritway is nowhere near invincible, it's a gimmick that loses handily to good teams and steamrolls bad ones. Spiritway was good when people didn't know how to fight it, now the novelty is gone and there are reliable strategies to kill it. --Tankity Tank 14:13, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Bleh, that said I really like the 4sec adrenal refresh under RAO idea. --Tankity Tank 17:23, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Wait, why is everyone talking as if RaOs have energy problems without EW? --Edru viransu 23:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

This skill isn't overpowered, thumpers are horrible nowadays hence why no one uses them in gvg. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:210.9.140.202 .

And no one does HA, I am sure. Readem Hate Mail Goes Here 02:31, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

This skill receiving a slight nerf would be entirely reasonable. Warriors rarely use this skill and if they use it it is in conjunction with Dev hammer or Earthshaker. Thus in those cases they won't fire it off until they have built 7 or 8 adren. Thumpers build this skill up surprisingly fast however. I would bump this skill up to 7 adren, maybe 8 adren. It will have a minimal impact on warriors while helping reduce the thumper knockdown spam. -Warskull 16:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the issue here is with spirit not Hammer Bash if you nerfed it you would remove thumpers, and I think thumpers are cool, the spirit way build just needs to be nerfed in another way. ~Izzy @-'---- 22:08, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Thumpers are not cool, they a a constant Speed Buff/IAS with a pet and the most effective condition in the game that requires 0 skill at all. --ChronicinabilitY 14:33, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I guess the Abuse on Thumpers can easily be solved. Simply add"Hammer Bash doesn't hit if Strenght is below 2".

Yeah, link it to Strength and give it a 50% failure chance if Strength is below X. -- Gordon Ecker 01:46, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

That'd be the smartest solution for this Bunnyway-Plague in my opinion. It doesn't even have to require much in Strength, but please do something against those nobrainers in HA. They have been dominating the meta for way too long now.--84.179.110.222 15:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

No one even runs thumpers in top level play anymore because they're bad, this skill really doesn't need nerfing.

Thumpers are NOT cool. They are extremely powerful pressure which takes very little skill to run - and are the backbone of most the 'noobway' gimmicks in HA and gvg. Nerfing the spirit will do nothing - All the spirit does is allow you to run your vamp weapon instead of your zealous. Nerfing RaO will do little - its possible to run thumpers w/o it (not as good ones, but brilliant pressure all the same) and even with a nerf to only keep it up 50% of the time, thats a huge amount of pressure for 50% of the time and a large amount for the other 50% - and the thumper builds generally focus on wiping the other team in about a minute anyway. Neither Crushing Blow or Beastial Mauling are overpowered, as they are both perfectly balanced skills atm. Nerfing Bash is the only way to go IMO, and I'm with Auron saying that it should have a recharge. The fact is, Thumpers are ruining alot of the forms of GW atm (I know multiple people who have quit because when you have nerfed builds such as heroway in the past, another build using thumpers with imba pressure comes along 2s later, Spiritway, and the basis of both these builds is thumpers). 80% of teams are sway, 5% are heroway, 10% are sway variants with SH, and 5% is everything else. Its ridiculous, and its ruining HA. And its all powered by the Thumper, and Hammer Bash. 81.159.79.64 19:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Precisely. Thumpers are extremely overpowered. The pressure they bring to the table just grounds anything else to dust. Hammer Bash's synergy with Rampage as One is a major factor in why Heroes Ascent is sucking so much. The thumper has been at the forefront of nearly every gimmick for the past year or two. The IAS, IMS, and constant knockdowns are to blame for this. Drop the IAS, give this thing a recharge, and you probably wouldn't be doing so bad. —ǥrɩɳsɧƿoɲ 18:43, 9 November 2007 (UTC)