User talk:Kalas Silvern/Assassin Balance ideas

Uppin golden fox's recharge to 5 seconds would already hurt alot (might even up it to 6) 81.244.0.22 04:34, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I personally would prefer lowering the damage in order to make it a pressure skill that also can be used in a slightly less powerful spike, but I'll remember the idea of a recharge change if lowering the damage slightly wouldn't be enough. As of now, I'd like to leave it as is to promote L-O-D play, at least until other leads become viable. --Kalas Silvern 18:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Thats a bad idea assassins are glass canons.They werent menth for pressure (wich leads to broken builds [1]).Upping recharge will cut the damage of an SA sin by alot.More then lowering that damage.I would like to promote a STRONGLY MODDED O-D-O-D and a normal L-O-D-O-D play.The problem is they have no real use in gvg (exept from the part where they get abused).And thats a harder problem to fix imo.You can say they can work as frontlines but just like dervishes they promote BUTTON BASHING instead of skill (like a warrior) Lilondra 10:00, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, here are some of the problems with the list:

1. The smiting skill is just bad. Why? It's a niche skill. By definition, a skill that can counter only one sitiuation is automatically bad. Couple that with being in an useless attribute, well...
2. I don't like the off-hand changes, because they just scream O-D-O-D combo's. If you are going to do that, nerf Dual's a bit?
3. Finally, I have to agree with lil that I really don't think assassins are a pressure class. Maybe have some long reload skills for spike support? -- NUKLEAR IIV 19:09, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

/agree with nuclear exept on the 2nd point of the o-d-o-d. Imo they SHOULD exist as they mark the assassin class but they should cost you bar compression (now this has been done wrong imo).The sp chain has been nerfed to oblivion (he +- deserved that but not in this way).

Now i think the main problem is this : No use in gvg unless you exploit everything wich can be exploited (aka sinsplit) To vunerable if not ganking or pulling off imba pressure (SA kthx) In ra insta kills (but w/e lalz i mean fkn RA Oo we arent going to balance that are we ?) In ta same as in gvg imba pressure or say hi to

O wait then we got pve right ? cuz we all know spiking is good in pve and we all know there is no imba shit (i kinda would have linked imba shit to ursan,save yourselves,there is nothing to fear,volfen,basicly any pve only skill that isnt complete rubish but i'm to much of a wiki noob to do this).

dont get me wrong i loved the assassin class i rly did but playing the warrior more and more made me realise something wich is hard to realise if you started playing when fan service began. Nearly every new profession is MAJOR PHAIL.(getting off topic here but w/e). Scythe damage with spammable DW or immunity to conditions or <put imba derv or x/D thing here> is just stupid.O wait i know paragons are alot more balanced AMIRITE ? Unremovable buffs on youre hole 8 man party and no need for monks or whatsoever is completely balanced. Ok 2 mistakes isnt that bad ? Cuz ritualists dont rely at all on some imba skills (again i would have linked this to wor,ar,splinter weapon ,...) Ok but then we got the sin ow wait i already mentioned why that one doesnt work either so my point is it will be VERY TOUGH to balance these professions without destroying them.(Because i think the new profs already got more nerfs then the old ones Oo).

With that comes a last factor imo.Some of you might not agree with me but this is the greatest problem.These professions DO NOT REWARD SKILL,neither is there a quick way to make them reward skill. Think of it a war that switches targets and bulls when needed to follow up with shock and a spike (not in that order imo cuz he can just 3 2 1 to as this is the only way you get a kill these days). The elementalist gives you the option.Will you spend more exhaustion on that powerfull effect of gale or another spell or is it impossible to do so.Mesmers can you interrupt and see what needs change ? Rangers can you rock at the flag (tab tab tab dshot tab tab tab) AND gank WITH surviving ? Necromancers ? (well ill shut up here as they need much revamp atm but the concept can work) and Finally monks who are balanced most of the time. See how all broken shit comes from the NEW professions ? R/D and A/D  ? bypassing with skills what needs to bypassed with SKILL. Well i kinda went to for on the off topic but I think ive said my opinion now :p.

Lilondra 06:42, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

@Nuclear- I'll get to the duals- they're in for major changes. The smiting skill is due to the popularity of shadowsteps- It may be niche, but at the same time, it's a commonly used niche. It would also annihilate sinsplit- you can create an area that cannot be shadowstepped into or out of. Maybe make the shadowstep part a secondary effect, with the main one being miss chance or something. The reason I put it in smiting is that it seems to be an attribute on the rise- recent buff to reversal of damage, smiter's boon, etc. As far as the support spiking... well, I agree, that'd be a good role. However, they'll never see use if all they can do is support spike as a melee, so I was intending to try and change skills to fit a more hybrid role- still able to spike at intervals, but also able to pressure. The first step was having good leads, preferably with reasonable recharges, since assassins get pathetic autoattack damage. Next up will be the offhands- they'll probably get similar tweaks- lowered damage (in some cases, drastically), and slightly lowered recharge to be more in line with leads. Finally, dual attacks are getting nerfed. I'm going to focus on rewarding proper use of some, while focusing on making others pressure, not spike. One example of an idea- Nine Tailed Strike- I'm thinking lower recharge to 4, damage to around what twisting fangs is now, maybe slightly less, but adding extra conditional damage if the target would have blocked the attack. Shattering assault would have a similar change, though I'm thinking make it blockable, but removes one enchant regardless of it it's blocked. Twisting fangs... well, I'll remove bleeding, at least. Blades of steel will remain the same in all likelyhood. Horns of the Ox will get a slight damage buff, as will trampling, but recharges will increase on both, as well as requirements for HoTO being slightly harder- not under a hex, for instance. Lastly- spike support isn't really going to come from Lead attacks- I'll take that into account when I do the duals/deadly arts stuff. I'm aiming at an alternate to warriors- easier to kill, but can start skills earlier/pressure comes from lead attack. That way, offhands and duals are for when you spike, while lead is there so you can pressure and start it when the time comes.

@Lil- First, glass cannon = sees no use in high end pvp. That's why I'm aiming for non-broken pressure. I'm also intending to make the offhands and duals the ones that require skill. Instagibs = bad in all play. I'm trying to promote pressure, hit and run(later changes), and support spiking- I don't like the idea of suicide spikes, as you probably saw in my stance against Shadow Prison. Dervs themselves aren't all that imba right now- aside from Wounding Strike (recharge nerf please) and Avatar of Mel (req skill please), I don't see many problems (don't bring up Pious assault, it shouldn't exist in its current state). Paras are weaker than monks in pvp- support paras are nearly dead as is. Rits... well I'd say Weapon of Remedy is balanced in a large environment. Ancestors and splinter were just nerfed too. So I kind of agree with you, but it can be fixed. Imba =/= fanservice.

A final note- I'm sick of the term fanservice. Say what your problem is, don't just drop it under fanservice. Eles, Wars, and Necros are fanservice. Pets are fanservice. Clarify what you mean- and this isn't just at you, it's at all the people who do that. --Kalas Silvern 08:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I never EVER said wars,necros,eles and pets are fanservice and i NEVER EVER WILL !!!!!!! Paragon's concept is broken and thats what i meant.Dervishes dont really reward skill imo. They do not have bull strike they do not have agonizing chop no they have pious assault and other things like that.Imo they need conditional utility. Imba =/= fanservice i know but nuke was right about the sin being one of those things imo.Weapon of remedy can KILL youre damage completely.Eviscerate > body Blow > agonizing is one of those variants on a shock axe.Try spiking when they poof wor while doing so.DW gone interrupt gone and damage gone with 1 simple short recharging skill ;-).Ancestors is fine now splinter isnt yet you can still farm npc's easely.Glass cannons arent menth for pressure is just true :/.Dagger damage is low so that wont trigger prots from the opposing monk imo and chains got to be quite imba for sins to take them as pressure (excluding the moebius one but i dont think that sees any high lvl play does it ?).

Suicide spikes ? nah i dont like that either just make it require some skill.Shadowstepping gives a lot advantage atm.Lilondra 10:38, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll define fan service: Shit Anet put into the game because fanbois asked for it. support paras are still win - and re read the first rule: Niche skills are always bad. Example: Frozen armor. I would've written moar, but I hate this keyboard... ---- NUKLEAR IIV 13:44, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

And norris spearchucker isnt ? or the grim reaper ? Lilondra 14:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Lil, my point with the pets/eles/necros wasn't that you said it. It's that you can apply fanservice to anything. I agree with Dervs being broken. I agree with sins needing utility. I disagree about WoR being imba in large environs- small environs, yes, large, no. Also, I've never said sins were implemented well, or weren't there because fans wanted them. I'm saying that I'd like to have people get over their irrational hatred of assassins due to a few morons and bad implementation, and fix that bad implementation. So, please, wait till I finish this- there's a LOT more to do. I'm busy, and that's why it's not done yet.

In regard to the niche skill- ok, you win that argument. Let's make it non-niche then, and just add that effect to an existing skill- Ward against foes or something. It takes strategy to know which area to deny your opponent- and it'd potentially stop the ganks. It'd be another boon to earth too- they now counter shadowsteps :). Just trying to think out of the box, if that seems like a better idea, I'll change it. Starting offhands today. --Kalas Silvern 23:24, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Massive update. Hopefully it looks somewhat better now. Also, I'm hoping the change to the anti shadowstep skill seems better. --Kalas Silvern 23:49, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Well wor can just kill any war spike :/ (yh i now reversal etc but thats not near as powerfull) also assassins were my favorite profession when i started so i know something about it going to check youre update now ^^ Lilondra 05:57, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Most updates are nice,i hate to let the 1/2nd cast offhands go but if its necesarry :/ 1 thing i would like to note NO OP skills not in pve not in pvp just lower the strength of these monsters and +- NUKE every single damn pve skill -.- Lilondra 06:01, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

The main thing I realized was that complaints often arise due to dual power. By front loading the combos, you get the ability to do some pressure via using lots of lead attacks, and can combo to spike assist. Similar to a war that autoattacks, then spikes with adren. The change to Fox Fangs and Nine Tail Strike are to make them punish defenses- maintaining block no longer is the ultimate solution to danger from melee, so that people need to be intelligent with their blocking. And yes, I'd also like to see a change to pve so that skill wins, not OP builds designed around an invulnerable character to combat OP, insane, retardedly powerful groups of enemies. --Kalas Silvern 05:07, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

^ YOU JUST WON THE FIRST PRICE (A FKN MUDKIP) Lilondra 08:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

A lot of people are realizing the pve thing. For pvp, I'm aiming to preserve good spike capability (no, not SP broken spiking, balanced spiking), while making leads the way to go for builds balanced between spiking and pressure. --Kalas Silvern 08:51, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Ive been thinking what if assassins get attacks that req something a previous attack can deliver (notthe lead-offhand thing).For example an attack that requires cripple and does + damage on blind or something and thus assassins becoming condition chainers.might be stupid though.Lilondra 11:13, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

That'd be interesting, actually. Maybe I'll make a dual attack of some kind do that. Similar in idea to the Nine Tail Strike, but more intricate. Maybe make it an if/or thing, where it does one thing on one condition, and another on another condition, with it doing the effect of whichever one is at the bottom/top of the stack? Mind writing up an idea for an attack? I'd say make one effect utility (KD, Cripple, something like that), and the damage effect something else. --Kalas Silvern 03:52, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Well for example 1 attack requires a moving foe and deals DW with a 1/4th cast time. A second attack deals +50 Damage against foes with DW (daggers have low rate ) and deals cracked armor.Then a 3rd attack is a dual attack and looks like this: If target suffers from a deep wound you deal an addonitional 45 damage to that foe if target foe has cracked armor target foe is knocked down and you strike again for + 45 damage. This might be OP or stupid but it requires skill while still being able to counter.(noobs will not check for moving or something like that). The Opening attacks like the 1 with the DW should have a rly short recharge (like 3-4) while the chains have 5-8. All skills should be conditional only dealing damage or kding or anything if a certain condition is met.Be it a hex be it an enchantment (on you or the target foe) or be it a condition.Things like cripple and blind should NOT be a condition for a lead attack as it can be provided by things like grenths grasp.Also maybey a shadowstep with a LOW recharge should be given to assassins who like to invest in for example critical strikes or deadly arts only becoming availeble at 13 or more.For example recharge 10 but it does absolutely nothing else.So no healing no hex nothing and maybey a sacrifice like nuke mentioned not shure both ideas might be OP.Lilondra 06:40, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I can't write a er to shadow very detailed response right nao, but don't fuck about with WaF. That's one perfectly balanced skill. I would advise against trying to find a niche counter, because that shit fails every time. -- NUKLEAR IIV 19:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The point is there will be no counter to shadowstepping cuz either you attach it to every defensive skill and they become useless or you attach it to 1-2 skills that are useless anyway and we are back to the imba shadowstep thing.Imo you need to fix the consequenses of being able to shadowstep.For example : Leach of the shadow : You suffer from -3 degeneration.This stacks with other leaches.This effect ends after 60 seconds.Wich activates every time you shadowstep. Or a sacrifice just add a frkn downside.Lilondra 06:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Was gone for over a week. The reason I chose to add a niche effect to Ward Against Foes is because it fits the skill, it was already balanced, hence adding a low impact (niche) effect wouldn't break it, and because a shadowstep counter is needed. The degen penalty wouldn't be enough... Perhaps a health loss, so that it stacks beyond the degen cap. Either that, or Nuke's sacrifice idea (dependant on step). I like the dagger attack idea, but I'd rather make leads into stuff you can use similar to an auto attack for pressure, allow lead markers on multiple people, and make duals/offhands/post-duals (For example, Impale) take skill/be used for spiking, similar to how warriors can spike once they have their adrenaline. Sins could have markers on multiple targets, preventing stupidly easy to spot telegraphing (still possible, just not stupidly easy), while enabling them to spike on cue, similar to other melees. Lilondra, if you could work up a few skill chains (And I mean the actual skills, new or changed), I'd really like to see them- it sounds like a cool idea for some chains, though making all of them require something like movement would not help. I like the ideas, and agree that shadowsteps need a downside. --Kalas Silvern 04:03, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

will add them to my balancing page Lilondra 10:33, 10 July 2008 (UTC) Added to my balance page

Sweet. Admittedly, this last update kinda pissed me off. Shadow walk and Chilling Victory in particular. --Kalas Silvern 07:13, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

YH that is not the solution neither is chilling (it barely loses damage lalz Oo).Lilondra 17:07, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

First: Maybe I'm an idiot, but YH? Second... well, I'd actually have claimed Shadow Walk was the only balanced shadowstep. It had a downside- no IAS, no Spike Priming. Chilling... that balance is exactly why I'm sick of Anet's skill balances. They don't understand the difference between good, balanced, and WTF this is unusable. Moving to wind prayers was definitely the wrong nerf... Lowering damage of one part would've balanced it. --Kalas Silvern 21:59, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

By moving it to wind prayers they *REDUCED* possibilities while *RETAINING* a imba build.Lilondra 08:20, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Allow me to rephrase. It's unusable in builds that want something other than wind prayers. It's too limiting, as you said, and that's the issue. --Kalas Silvern 22:46, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Izzy wanted to nerf the r/d wich is a good thing but he did it wrong.

You are so right!

Omg how long did we have to wait for someone who finally realizes that W/W/R/E/Me/Mo/Mo/R isnt everything! And who doesnt not just cry to heaven when his strategy is nerfed to hell again, like Palm Strike or IW or IWAY or Gale Jail or Obsi Spiking or Lightning Orb or such!

I desperately tried to introduce IW in Random Arenas for quite a time. And well, it did its job well. Nobody stripped me! But unfortunately no one whom i killed ever appered with another skillz. Never! GW players have recognized what Anet does and knwo whats gonna happen. So they become more and more uncreative and conservative or whatever u call it. GW really goes down.
(same one as above)

Who are you, and what are you talking about?? --Kalas Silvern 19:38, 28 May 2009 (UTC)