ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Elementalist/Ward Against Melee/Elements

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It is my personal opinion that melee damage is too powerful in the recent game. Therefore, I think that the recent nerf of Ward Against Melee was a poor choice. Yet I understan how boring it can be to be blocked all the time, so that is why I suggested this change. It won't change anything about the damage that Ward Against Melee prevents, but it will allow players to gain more adrenaline, cause conditions and interrupts, etc. This will make WAM effective, but not boring.

Ward Against Elements won't be used in PvP, because it only protects against elemental damage and because it does so little against elemental damage. In PvE, it has a few minor uses, but because quite a few monsters use AoE damage, the ward is impractical (if you kite you lose the armor bonus, if you don't you'll get more damage). So it is basically useless at the moment. My suggestion should make it a bit more powerful, hopefully enough that players would rather remain in the ward that kite and making the ward useless.

All numbers may still be changed of course, and this is just my opinion, of course. Nicky Silverstar 08:52, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

No, that's just too much. People will just stand in the wards and laugh at u as u cant do anything at all. Way too passive. Dark Morphon(contribs) 16:10, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

You do know that Ward Against Melee will actually get nerfed by my suggestion right? Nicky Silverstar 11:25, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Let's state a few facts to support my suggestion:

• Most PvP players on this wiki state that unblockable skills are bad, and that they don't use them.
• Ward Against Melee blocks 50% of all attacks, which means 50% less melee damage and 50% less interrupts, knockdowns, conditions, etc.
• My suggestions means 50% less melee damage, but all interrupts, knockdowns, conditions, etc. still go through.

See how my suggestion actually nerfs it, even though it sounds more powerful? Nicky Silverstar 21:26, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Ward Against Melee was always fine. It was always the wrong skill to target. The best thing to do would be to make it harder for non-Earth Elementalists to use it while improving Earth Magic as a whole, making Earth Elementalists the ones who used Wards. I don't like the damage reduction idea either. There's no way around it. You can use skills to get around blocking, and I do not mean Warrior skills. I mean support skills such as Guided Weapon, Rigor Mortis, and Defile Defenses. But people don't use those because they are not in good attributes/professions. As soon as Necromancers become viable for builds other than hex overload, we might see some anti-block skills in the metagame.

Also, Warrior damage is not overpowered. Dervish and Assassin damage is overpowered, but overall those classes suck anyway. Warriors are the best offense in the game and that's fine. --TimeToGetIntense 13:43, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

You probably know that I do not share your opinion on the Warrior, but it is know around the wiki, so I won't bother you with arguments again. I know that there is no way around damage reduction, I basically wrote it to make a point: anti-blocking isn't used so why not change the ward to the way it is in practice?. I am glad you agree with me on the nerf though. I often get the feeling that people don't care about Earth Magic because it isn't meant to deal damage while, with a bit of thought and minimal changes, it can be turned into a great support line that won't be overpowered. Nicky Silverstar 07:37, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I have altered my suggestion. What do you guys think? The absolute value must still be determined though, I just filled something in that comes close to the 50% less melee damage at 15 Earth Magic. 145.94.74.23 14:47, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Whoever posted about the necro and rit skills is spot on. There is nothing wrong with blocking, it's a lack of punishment for blocks that is the problem, whether that be longer recharge on blocks, having viable unblockable skills, or having more skills like defile defenses. The Sins We Die By 04:24 28 March 2008 (UTC)

What is wrong with blocking is that a spell that was well balanced got nerfed because it causes blocking. Ward Against Melee works only against MELEE, which is enough of a downside by itself. 145.94.74.23 17:00, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Nicky I usually disagree with your change suggestions, but this one im with you 100%. This is a great change 76.26.189.65 18:27, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

It's like they say: "If you fire 17.219 times you're bound to hit something." 145.94.74.23 22:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Problem with both buffs is that they completely rape Ward Against Harm functionality wise, unless that ward gets a buff too. I doubt you realize how much damage reducion +55 armor is >.>; If it capped at +25-30, I could maybe get behind this buff/nerf, but you wont accept that since its essentially already what Elements is at. While I dont mind the moving of Melee to armor instead of block, I dont think this is a viable nerf/buff. --Angelic Loki 07:24, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

fine then how about +24 vs thier respective? 76.26.189.65 12:10, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Ward Against Elements already has +24 armor. Ward Against Harm at least gives +24 armor versus everything. Is it so hard to understand that if something doesn't work against everything, then it should be more powerful than something that does work against everything? There are plenty of partywide armor buff skills that add +24 armor against everything. These skills are specific, so they should add +40. Not a point less. 145.94.74.23 12:54, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Ward Against Harm should be buffed to +30 versus everything, no other effect, in my opinion.

Its not hard to understand that a skill specifically targeting one effect would be better then something targeting everything if everything else is equal which it isn't, since harm is elite. +40 armor would allow you to completely tank the damage, basically ignoring whatever was hitting on you. A non-elite should not grant that sort of power. +40 is to much. +24 vs all ele damage is a big chunk. No buff is needed. I can provide stats on the damage reduction if you force me to. --Angelic Loki 07:40, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I have better arguments though: Ward Against Elements currently has +24 armor versus all Elemental damage, and nobody uses it. Ever. So it must be worthless, otherwise people would bring it. Also, consider "Stand Your Ground!", "Watch Yourself!" and "Save Yourselves!". If you need armor, you'll bring a shout, not a ward, which gives more armor, against everything and is uninterruptable, unremovable and doesn't suffer from positioning issues of a ward. With just +24 armor (and an armor cap), it won't be used in PvE either though. If anyone else brings a +XX armor skill, then your ward suddenly becomes useless. Finally, when you consider kiting, then it really needs a lot more to make people want to stay in the ward when an AoE hits. If Ward Against Harm would be changed to +40 armor versus everything, then that would be balanced too. 145.94.74.23 08:50, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and did I mention that WaE costs 15 energy as well? WAAAY TOO MUCH, unless it would gove +40 armor. 145.94.74.23 08:52, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, your argument isn't as good as you think it is. First of all, all armor buffs are useless if someone else brings an armor skill, so using that logic, they all suck and should be buffed. Try again. Besides, if 1 person brings an armor buff, thats potentially 7 people still protected. On to the next argument. Stand your ground doesn't cycle, thus the ability to kite, but you can kite in the ward and not remove your armor buff while kiting, unlike Stand. Watch ends after 2 hits, its a joke as a armor buff, I dont even know why you cited it. It's only used because it serves as e-management at the same time. Save yourself is PvE, so I can now see what type of a player you are. Skills are balanced based on PvP (99% of the time), so dont even bother comparing to a PvE only skill. It wont be used in PvE simply because Hero's dont efficiently use wards, and pugs dont realize they should use them. Like I said before, however, we balance for PvP. As for kiting, unless an AoE drops in the DEAD CENTER of the ward, you can get out of AoE without getting out of the ward. Easily. In the Area is much larger then most AoEs. As for your last argument? 15 energy is a joke on a ele. Glyph + Attunement = no energy problems unless you are spamming a 25 energy skill. If your using it to compare it to harm, harm is also 15 energy. On your topic of "nobody uses," you're just plain dead wrong. I went in to Hero's Ascent last night, and most teams that had earth ele's had Elements/Foes, and sometimes Melee. Your proposed buff renders Ele's worthless, as all their damage is elemental. +40 armor is half damage, and giving a cyclable half damage non-elite is sheer stupidity. if you want, make it scale up to 30, forcing high investment in earth to get the high damage reduction, but +40 base is never going to happen. I dont even need to write this, because I'm confident the devs at ANet will never put this buff it. It's to powerful. Either retool it or forget it. --Angelic Loki 01:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

There is so much wrong with your reasoning that I hardly know where to begin. If you seriously think that 50% chance to block prevents less damage than +40 armor, then you shouldn't act so condescending. -50% damage non-elites already exist, and they are way less narrow than WaE, and they not just outclass it, they replace it, because of the armor cap. Your arguments, they're not even half right. Most GOOD PvPers don't use WaE. 145.94.74.23 21:40, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

145, if you want to suggest +40 armor then make a new suggestion with it saying "40" stop changing my suggestion 76.26.189.65 08:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I won't. Sorry about that. Well, I have made my suggestion. What do you think? 145.94.74.23 21:08, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

You're opinion of my PvP skill doesn't matter to me, but I would be interested in seeing your non-elite versions that are -50%, and are broader and unremovable, because otherwise its a whole different story. If the ward were removable, I wouldn't have a problem with +40. And your most GOOD PvP players dont use is a giant insult to the top gvg guilds that ran this when Rodgort's spike, SF spike, and other Ele spikes were common.

All elemental damage isn't very narrow, by the way, its all E Skills, a lot of N skills, and any Melee person who is using an elemental weapon (which happens with Conjures, When the opponent is using bladeturn, etc), Rt Channeling Skills, etc. Elemental damage is a very broad category of skills. as for preventing less damage then 50% block, it does and it doesn't. they are 2 different skills, meant to combat 2 different types of damage. 50% block prevents about the same amount of damage as this skill if they have a lot of melee/projectile attackers, but +40 armor prevents much more damage against casters. As my final say unless you actually justify your responses in the future, I would ask that instead of saying "You're wrong" and not providing examples or reasoning, you provide proof, or work some math to prove your numbers, it makes it much easier to show a point. As for whether or not 50% prevents less damage, check out Armor Rating. Generalized, 40 armor halves remaining damage. 50% block is unpredictable, it may block Eviscerate, which would prevent 80% of the damage, or it may allow all of the attacks to hit, and then block the next normally attack, preventing 0% of the damage. That's why 50% block isn't op. Your suggestion will provide not only half damage, but it will ALWAYS be half damage, which is more powerful then the random chance that a spike will get through. The chance that 50% block will do close to nothing is what makes it balanced, but you wont have that chance with a 40 armor buff, as the Damage Reduction will always occur. Spells are so powerful partly because they cant be blocked. --Angelic Loki 01:27, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

In PvP, every meleeër will bring different types of weapons, so that's no argument. There are also several skills that lower armor and a lot of skills that completely bypass it (you do know that all bonus damage from skills is actually armor ignoring do you?) So 50% chance to block will actually prevent more damage than +40 armor, since +40 armor will only half base-damage, not bonus damage. In practice, that's a 33% reduction, not a 50% one. As for elemental damage being a broad categroy, it isn't as broad as melee damage. Physicals can swap weapons and while there are many spells deal elemental damage, there are just as many that do not deal elemental damage. All melee damage will always be melee damage, but spell damage can vary (wildly). I see your point, it would be a little unfair against elementalist spike teams, so I'll settle for a reduction to 10 energy. Ward against melee though, would surely benefit from a change to +40 armor though. It is in no way more pwerful than it is now, since any attack skill can reliably get through (including interrupts) and any bonus damage won't be stopped by it. 145.94.74.23 07:41, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Bonus damage? youre joking right... unless youre dagger (maybe sword), bonus damage is pathetically low. +30 from evis and +40 from exe? thats only 70 dmg+dw, yet that is able to bring 600 hp people to below half? its from the weapons natural damage! even better example is scythe that spam +10 damage attacks and still hit upwards of 100. 76.26.189.65 22:02, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I do see your point about multiple weapons, but I would also point out that they dont know which ward is on you. Its pretty easy to figure out. I did know that damage from attack skills was AI, so I see your point about it not QUITE reducing by 50%, Since people don't really spam attack skills, I'm not sure that drops it to 33%, but I definately hadn't thought of that. I would still say that Elemental is broader then Melee, but I think that most pressure comes from the consistent damage of melee (Why the old IWAY worked so well) Sin, War, and Derv are the only melee classes, and para counts for neither, so that leave Necro, Ele, Rt, Mes (usually chaos, ill admit), monk (sometimes holy, usually fire), etc.. as all doing ele damage. I would certainly agree with a hack down to 10 energy, as that would enable its use on off-eles, whereas 15 energy is rather restrictive. I would point out however, that Ward Against Foes is used on Off-Ele's (and even Warriors) in HA without any energy issues, and The energy and Recharge are the same, so I'm not sure that energy is a huge concern. Why dont we just Scale the armor instead, hitting 24 armor at 12 earth. I'm bad at the formulae, but I think that would make it around 30 at 16 earth, which would be perfectly acceptable, since all the wards are very powerful at 16 earth. Would that work for you? --Angelic Loki 05:20, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that would be an acceptable solution for me. I did some thinking, and I also agree that +40 armor against elemental damage is too high (after some thinking, which I need to do more often). Against melee damage, I still vote for +40, if only to bring down the melee-heavy meta a bit (Ward Against Melee already cuts the damage in half, so I'd like to trade the partial immunity against interrupts and conditions for a continuous +40 armor). Hopefully it is also acceptable for Izzy. I am sorry I got so offensive at you, I didn't mean it that way. I had a bad day when I wrote it.

And 76.26, I am not joking. When an axe hits for 6-28, +30 bonus damage is a LOT. Melee characters have a huge advantage in the fact that when they use a skill, about half of it is armor ignoring. When using a spell, none of the damage is armor ignoring (apart from a few spells that do in fact deal armor ignoring damage). As for your statement "bonus damage is pathetically low", well, it isn't. If you hit an armor 60 target, you deal (let's say) 28 damage + 30 = 58, where [[Flare] would hit for 65. When you hit an armor 100 target, you still deal 44 damage, where a [[Flare] would deal only 32. That is the power of bonus damage, and +30 is still higher than your max base damage with an axe. With a scythe, well, that's the downside of the scythe, even if casters hardly ever experience that weakness. 145.94.74.23 06:34, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I dont expect the best manners from people on wiki, that way I'm never disappointed ;) --Angelic Loki 09:46, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I haven't read all of the huge block o' text above.. but.. uhm.. Are you guys okay? WaM was never broken. It was an awesome skill that rewarded coordination. It allowed decent defense on the stand, but countered easily by using positioning. As for WaE, all teh buff that needs is... uhm... 5e cost. Fixed.

Oh, and I personally believe that all wards should cycle except WoS. -- NUKLEAR IIV 21:34, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I was jusrt trying to suggest a less drastic nerf in the hope that Izzy would make Ward Against Melee continuous again. The recent nerf to WaM shows how much he reads these pages. 145.94.74.23 09:21, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Duh. He's made it very clear by now that he wants to kill passive defense. Even with the proposed changes to WaM to make it give armor instead of blocking, it's still a passive, unstrippable defense. Izzy doesn't want that, so that's not going to happen. He also nerfed Blinding Surge and Aegis, two more passive defense skills. Honestly, stop QQing that this skill is dead, because it's going to stay dead. Start bringing Ward Against Foes or something else entirely and deal with it. 76.89.81.150 05:12, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Blinding surge is not passive. WaM is not passive. Aegis is passive. Whoever thought they were passive should die in a puddle. -- NUKLEAR IIV 15:43, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Elementalists should get passive defense vs melee, because melee deals insanely high amounts of damage (more than casters) for less energy, has adrenaline and more defense, not to mention better defensive skills they never use because they don't need them. The nerf of WAM was a very, VERY poor choice because it shifted the balance even more towards melee.It could have been balanced by the buff of skills like Magnetic Aura, but of course that never happens. Melee people are the whiners here, just look at Wounding Strike. 87.210.150.58 09:06, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Passive defense is not good for the game. It does not reward skill. In my opinion, the only problem with this was that it could not be removed- not that it was defensive. As someone who plays both melee and casters, I'll agree that melee damage is higher than caster damage. So why not buff single target caster damage? The reason people don't want melee nerfed is because defense is powerful enough as is. This skill, on the other hand, is fine in most areas. When maintainable, it has some issues, but when it has slight downtime, it promotes skilled use of it. Melee doesn't get passive defense against spells- in fact, I don't think any exists aside from rangers, so what makes casters so special? Do you want eles to be unkillable, or do you want them to be difficult to kill as they are now. Nuclear, right on target again- WaM and B-surge aren't problems (b-surge is close due to the hit one button to shut down factor, but it's not a huge deal due to the strength of condition removal). Passive d = bad, active d = good. --Kalas Silvern 06:57, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

So why not buff single target caster damage?

Caster spikes. --71.237.30.4 07:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Melee characters don't have passive defense versus spells? What about armor? Most spell damage gets cut by at least 50% against warriors, without the warrior having to use special equipment or even use skills. ALL bonus damage is armor ignoring, where as spell damage that is armor ignoring is always restrained by all kinds of things. And against armor 60, it doesn't even matter that melee damage isn't armor ignoring. 145.94.74.23 21:34, 13 June 2008 (UTC)