ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Mesmer/Simple Thievery

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Erasculio's Discussion

Another big reason why this isn't used is Power Block. Disabling many skills > disabling one skill, no matter what benefit you gain from using Simple Thievery. That, and the fact that the stolen skill uses your attribute instead of Domination (and let's be honest, how many skills are you going to be able to steal from the Domination line - oh, wait, Diversion, which I already have!) make this a really horrible skill. -- Armond Warblade 15:20, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

First, I like the idea that it would use Domination Magic in that you can use it yourself. However, if you're using Signet of Illusions and you use Arcane Mimicry to get Simple Thievery (ok, perhaps a little farfetched, I'll admit), it'd suck to use Simple Thievery with your attribute points in Domination Magic instead of Illusion Magic. How about it just read that you steal the skill with rank at whatever the rank was set at by target foe?

Also, I don't like the idea that it'd be an interrupt, because there are plenty of them, nor do I like the idea that it is another diversion, because this applies to ALL skills and not just spells. I propose you make it a hex spell which lasts x seconds and steals only the elite and only if they use. The fact that it would use the rank of target foe evens out the fact that it only applies towards the elite, making it either a functional elite stealer or a way to disactivate the elite of a foe for the duration of the hex through disuse (the choice being up to the foe). Otherwise, this skill becomes like Arcane Thievery and Arcane Larceny only for skills, to be destined for use in skill steal builds only. --Eyekwah 15:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

SoI/Arc Mimicry is just dumb if you're just going for Simple Thievery. Set it to using the Domination rank and be done with it - no one's going to major in anything else if this is what they're using (and Domination is pretty friggin awesome anyway).

If it steals only the elite and only if they use it, it basically becomes a worse version of sig humil, with elite status to boot. It's an elite, though, so I don't see why you don't like the idea of it applying to all skills and not just spells. If it turns into an elite diversion, it damn well better affect all skills and not spells. (Diversion's essentially an interrupt anyway - you cancel whatever you're casting if you're able, or you're denied the spell anyway - so I also don't see why you don't like the idea of it interrupting.)

I'm still wondering whether it would be taken if it were an elite diversion. Yeah, you'd be able to drop diversion from your bar (or keep it if you want to divert two guys at once), but how useful is that? And then this would be vulnerable to sig humil and so forth... -- Armond Warblade 16:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Suppose this becomes an elite diversion. Then you get people with builds like Simple Thievery, Arcane Larceny, Arcane Thievery, Diversion which potentially could shutdown half your skill bar with the only condition being that the target opponent actually *uses* skills, which is an awfully unconditional condition. In all likelihood, anyone who brings an 'elite diversion' will probably bring diversion too, just like you'd bring Energy Tap if you brought Energy Drain for the simple purposes of maxing what your build does. We don't need another 'do the same thing as this skill only better' elite. Make this a hex which steals elites with the opponent's rank in that skill. It'd be powerful and extremely flexible as to what you could do with it. Without utilizing a 2nd profession and having points in it, you could use the elites of that profession and with high rank depending on where you're fighting or what you're doing. If you're fighting enemies with 'Escape' in PvE, you could effectively bring Simple Thievery as a self-defense for example. Or in PvP, you could shutdown their elite and use it against him. It's like Arcane Thievery but for elites rather than spells, except it would have to be conditional (or else it would be too powerful). --Eyekwah 09:57, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

No one uses thievery or larceny because they're bad, even with a buff to this. Diversion is countered by not being dumb. What was your argument again? -- Armond Warblade 17:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Backfire is countered by not being dumb. Empathy is countered by not being dumb. What's your point? It doesn't make them bad skills because they can be avoided. Though we already have Diversion. You really want a 2nd diversion, use Echo or Glyph of Renewal. I merely think Simple Thievery should work differently. That's all. --Eyekwah 17:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Backfire and Empathy are pretty horrible. -- Armond Warblade 19:26, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Eyekwah, think like this: imagine we were to change the skill to act liked you mentioned above. The description would be, more or less, "Elite Hex Spell. For 6 seconds, the next time target foe uses an Elite skill, that skill is stealed for x...y...z seconds and you may use it with target's foe attributes". However...That's almost the same as Diversion ("Hex Spell. For 6 seconds, the next time target foe uses a skill, that skill takes an additional 10...47...56 seconds to recharge"), only limited to Elite skills and stealing the affected skill. In other words, it would still be an Elite version of Diversion, only slightly less powerful than what I have suggested.

IMO, Armond is right - Arcane Larceny and Arcane Thievery are bad. You do not control what you steal - so even if you were to use Arcane Larceny 4 times (through some contrived combination of Echo/Archane Echo/whatever), you could still get the exact same skill four times, disabling only one skill from your target. The advantage of turning Simple Thievery into an "active" skill (as in, an interrupt or a hex that targets the next skill used) is that it would remove this element of randomness and thus give at least some control to the caster. Then we would have something different from just an Elite version of Arcane Larceny, or different from just using Arcane Thievery with Signet of Illusion. Erasculio 01:24, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

There's no control with a Diversion-based skill steal either. You'd have no more control than diversion gives you control over what you disable. The point is that if you have Simple Thievery which acts like an elite Diversion, it will always be used like a 2nd diversion. That's what it would essentially be. Even if you could use the skill at the rank of Domination or the rank of target foe, it wouldn't get equipped for that reason, because in the end, you'd use it only to disable more of their skills. Nobody would equip it to use once you steal. At that point, they might as well call it Diversion #2 Elite edition that lasts longer and has slightly smaller recharge. As much as I like Diversion, Simple Thievery shouldn't be 'remade' to be act like another non-elite so it will be used. At least if you're stealing an elite, you're eihter forcing your opponent to not use their elite or you're equipping yourself with a powerful new skill. Disabling *any* skill is to force your opponent to simply not play at all in order to outmaneuver this hex, which is hardly any fun. Where's the trick in that? It's not like you're saying that if they use a signet or use a spell they get punished. You're punishing the user for doing anything other than run away. --Eyekwah 09:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah this skill can use a buff or something. Empathy is alright, but backfire is terrible. All monks have to do is preveil so there goes your cover hex and instantlly remove the backfire hex while at the same time waiting another seventeen seconds for backfire to recharge.William Wallace 08:48, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Rend Enchantment + Soul Leech + Parasitic Bond --Eyekwah 09:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

...What's your point? There's better ways of killing casters than with Soul Leech and Backfire. -- Armond Warblade 16:57, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Rend Enchantment to cancel out preveil. The point is that there exists a way to counter a preveil monk. What's with you people? Do I really need to reference 'Great' builds for ways to counter monks for a quick example before you'll understand? Please think with your brains, not your wiki-spider sense. The fact is that no one or two spells could completely and unconditionally counter a monk build, but cut me some slack here. I didn't do days of research before I wrote down some quick spell combinations. --Eyekwah 10:09, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Eyekwah, when Armond talks about counters, he omits the word "viable". The above combo is not viable. -- NUKLEAR IIV 10:57, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Is true. I assume people know how to play. You want a monk counter? Migraine + Conjure Phantasm. -- Armond Warblade 19:32, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

So if monk has preveil, he'd use it as soon as you cast Migraine without having to worry about casting a thing. As for Conjure Phantasm, I doubt he'd waste his energy removing that. --Eyekwah 10:49, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

If he has veil, chances are there isn't much hex removal around. In that case, you don't be bad and go Phantasm + Migraine. -- NUKLEAR IIV 13:05, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

That's not an accurate scenario. You'd play that way if you knew they had preveiled, which you likely wouldn't know ahead of time. Even if you did know, you assume they'd remove it. Conjure Phantasm is a coverhex. Nobody uses it purely as offense. --Eyekwah 12:02, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

No, that's a very accurate scenario. You understand that they have veil by observing the first migraine fail. Then you don't be bad, do some math, and bonzana. You strike with phantasm first, and then migraine, shitting in their hex removal. So, in a way, you are still covering migraine - only from "bottom" removals. -- NUKLEAR IIV 15:44, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

And then if you notice they have "top" removals, you either whack Phantasm again or watch the necro drop Suffering on half the enemy party. -- Armond Warblade 18:57, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

A very accurate scenario for you perhaps. I would have long since given up if the best I had was Migraine and Conjure Phantasm. You on the contrary are telling me you'd spend 20 energy on Migraine and Conjure Phantasm, wait 15 seconds, and recast Conjure Phantasm and Migraine for another 20 energy just so you can *maybe* foil a monk who would use his Holy Veil to remove Conjure Phantasm. I understand that with enough persistence, you could probably manage, but there's a limit of time and energy which is crucial in a pvp match. Besides, whose to say they don't have Divert Hexes and take two little seconds to turn your 40 energy and 18+ seconds of wasted time into his 150 health gain and condition removal. --Eyekwah 12:23, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Pleak his veil. Sig humil their Divert (not that anyone carries it anyway). Pspike <insert problem skill here>. You've got six other skill slots (realistically five, as you'll need a res); use them. And bear in mind these are just your two mesmers. Your necros are dropping things like price, insidious, spiteful, and what not all over their frontline and midline, and your brave make haste warrior is wailing away on whatever looks squishiest. -- Armond Warblade 17:37, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

(EC)Except no body runs divert hexes, and the argument of "but it can be countered with skil X!!!!" is bullshit and buildwars.

Stop theorycrafting Eyekwah. If we are wrong, then why do all good migraine users use migraine precisely the way we describe it? Are you accusing all mesmers of being idiots? -- NUKLEAR IIV 17:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

lol Divert Hexes. Stop shitting this page up with theorycraft, you're bad at it. --76.25.197.215 17:43, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

You're talking about peaking his preveil, casting conjure phantasm to anticipate any further hex removal, *THEN* casting Migraine for a total of about 30 energy all on a hunch for something that another monk could easily remove for 5 energy... Or better still, bringing signet of humility so you can block an anti-hex elite.. and then you've got the balls to say I'm 'theorycrafting'. Reality is, you're going to go Migraine -> Conjure Phantasm and the monk will have veil. h@>< gg. If you do, he's going to remove Migraine immediately. If you don't, you're stupid for placing your coverhex first, and he'll use his veil to remove what comes after the scary -5 health degeneration. If you do anything else, you're the one those 'theorycrafting' I'm afraid. Divert Hexes is to show there's a counter to your idea. Veil is to show that anything other than a practical and typical attack on a monk will probably not work so well. The point being, any counter you could offer against placing Backfire on a monk is equally applicable to Migraine, except I can say you wasted an elite. If you want to challenge me on that, try me. Otherwise, come to the realization that there exists a counter for everything and yes, even your super-l337 idea has a counter. --Eyekwah 16:43, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

See, you are theory crafting. Real mesmers use migraine the way we described - go obs pls. -- NUKLEAR IIV 19:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)