ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Paragon/"The Power Is Yours!"

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How about: "All other teammembers gain 1...7...8 energy and you lose 2 Energy for each teammember affected by this shout." That would make it expensive, but managable. Nicky Silverstar 09:02, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Just an idea, but maybe instead, this could be reworked around reducing energy costs rather then giving direct energy. For example: "The next time all party members within earshot uses a skill the energy cost is reduced by 50%." This way, its also possible to add a number of skills/spells that could have a reduced cost like 1...3...3 and simply reduce the energy costs by 25% instead. OblivionDanny 13:59, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Speaking as someone who plays back-line a lot the extra energy is exceedingly helpful, which is why this is elite (although I don't think it would be used even as a non-elite, due to the heavy downside). I think that the skill effect is balanced for an elite, but its the downside that needs to be retooled. Instead of draining energy, you could retool this as a paragon e-denial without removing their energy pool. Think of it like this: "All Allies in earshot gain 1...7...8. For 10 seconds, you have -2 energy regeneration and you cannot use shouts or chants". You remove paragons source of energy management (adrenal shouts), and reduce his overall utility, while not removing attack skills and spells from his bar. Unless you have another paragon, this will also cause echo effects to end (more then likely). --Angelic Loki 18:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

If they implemented your idea, it still wouldn't get used ever. Instead of this junk elite, I could take Lyric of Zeal and give monks Singet of Devotion for prot monks and Signet of Rejuventation for heal monks, same energy gain as this skill, shorter recharge, and I as paragon actually gain energy when casting it. And to top it all, a nonelite. Even putting Bloor ritual on a paragon is better than this useless skill. I am tempted to say that this is the most useless paragon skill, but hard to do so when there's so much competition, even in elite category. To make this skill viable ever, they need to add another bonus effect besides energy gain. --Spura 21:27, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

You're probably correct. There are much more efficient means of energy management (ala Blood is Power) that a paragon can easily handle. Thinking along those lines, the front end of the skill does need to have an added effect, or changed to energy regen as opposed to straight energy (both allowing you to gain energy on it from leadership and not being worthless if your energy is at max) Would be interesting if it gave adrenaline as well as energy, but I think that would be OP. For now, lets assume the downside of the skill is balanced (which it isn't, but that can be worked on later), what should be included in the effect to make it a worthwhile elite? --Angelic Loki 01:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

First thing we need a duration and have it apply energy regen, to prevent stacking. Then we need an extra effect to warrant elite status, since the energy gain is same as non-elite skills like Lyric of Zeal or Zealous Anthem and even Aria of Zeal(has a bit lower energy gain but it is non-elite). For the first part I recommend: "For 0..12..15 seconds all allies within earshot gain energy regeneration of 0..X..2."

Total energy gain of 10 for 15 motivations(which I have yet to see people run, most people use 12 motivation). The duration is long enough to make 2 highly specced copies wasteful, and 2 low specced copies would cover 20 sec recharge cycle, but would only have 1 regen. Now we just need an extra effect that is interesting and not powerful on its own. Preferably something offensive rather than defensive. --Spura 12:18, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Adrenal Gain, allowing a faster spike perhaps? --Angelic Loki 10:45, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Instead of getting 10 pips of energy degeneration, If the paragon just lost all energy or the skill costs 15 energy and all non-attack skills are disabled for 5 seconds, then the skill would be better balanced for adrenalin users. Don Knowall 21:25, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Still too expensive for a completely shit effect elite. --Spura 10:47, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Be very careful with this elite, guys. I know it is just donkey shit right now, but it does fuel mid and backline, and it has a very weak cost to it. A recharge decreasing to 15 is good enough, I think. I think we'll all agree that caster buffs from midline is danegrous. -- NUKLEAR IIV 21:20, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Definitely /agree with nuklear. I like the idea of the skills recharging though, it allows for a nice downtime where the paragon cant use adrenaline shouts to charge his energy, without completely killing energy skills while in use. Mod to : "Allies in earshot gain X energy and 1..2..3 adrenaline, and your adrenaline skills are disabled for 10 seconds." Allows faster spikes on frontline, nice energy gain on backling, and even when the skill ends, you still have to charge your adrenal skills before you use them, so you couldn't really even use the skill on recharge, only when its needed. The scaling for the adrenaline is based off of synergy with FGJ, and issues with Backbreaker and Earthshaker, etc. --Angelic Loki 18:19, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Dang, ı can abuse that. Think midliner with only refrains and finales, bunch of shouts, and that. Daang... -- NUKLEAR IIV 20:11, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

So, you waste a whole character to make one skill work? Plus you would run out of energy really fast. --Angelic Loki 02:42, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Paragons don't run out of energy and I'm not wasting a single char on an elite - I am adding powerful support to an already broken elite. -- NUKLEAR IIV 09:29, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Paragons run out of energy easily. People make builds that don't, builds that don't use single target shouts and use GTFE for energy. Just because everyone runs same paragon build that doesn't have energy problems, doesn't mean class has infinite energy. --Spura 17:42, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Get a zealous spear with aggressive refrain. Get some non adrenal 5 energy chants, abuse ur primary. Really no problem to print energy on a paragon. -- NUKLEAR IIV 19:49, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

To gain energy from a 5e chant, you need 12 leadership, and 6 people in one spot. If your speced that high... yeah, you will gain energy. You cant use adrenal shouts with this under my mod, so thats not really a problem. you would be forced to use a zealous for energy or wait out the disable, which is the idea. Instead of outright denying energy, its deny's the source of major energy gain on paragons, adrenal shouts. --Angelic Loki 09:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

You can always load up on anthems/ballads and spam them like a nut. you can spec in motivation and abuse some energy skills there. Your paragon should always be keeping himself near his party, at the stand. -- NUKLEAR IIV 16:03, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree that your paragon should always be at the stand, so you should always be getting max energy, and I agree that you should have multiple shouts on the bar. The only way I see to GAIN energy from the Ballad/Anthem series though, is to have a Energizing Chorus on a off-Paragon, and here is why: ---1.) Assuming you had used this skill with my mod, you would have no adrenaline skills, so no free energy (They would be disabled for 10 seconds). 2.)Most paragons run 8 or 10 leadership, so 4 or 5 energy respectively. Most shouts in motivation are 10. Leaving 5 unaccounted for energy. --- That means that you need to recoup that energy through other means. I like the Zealous spear, and I dont think that the skill should discourage the use of proper equipment. The biggest thing here is that without external help, the paragon cannot use this skill constantly AND spam shouts/attack skills, but it doesn't stop him from doing so occasionally. The biggest problem with the skill right now is that it returns little to no energy and completely removes the utility from the game, as the paragon is gimped for 10 seconds. This change would keep the utility of the paragon during those 10 seconds, as long as the skill is not constantly used. --Angelic Loki 00:16, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Energizing finale? meh, we just argue semantics now. -- NUKLEAR IIV 17:55, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

1 Energy every shout or chant at the price of 10, so in around 15 seconds, 10 shouts have to end to gain 0 energy from this skill. harder then it sounds --Angelic Loki 04:32, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

You still ignore leadership. -- NUKLEAR IIV 13:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Leadership from what? You're adrenaline shouts are disabled, meaning that you wont gain energy from any shouts. You wont lose energy from 5 energy shouts if you have 10 leadership, but you need 12 to gain 1. Leadership is an effective form of management only if you have adrenal skills, which you wont under the use of this skill. I want to hear of a bar that doesn't use a second paragon, and can still maintain energy regen while spamming this skill. You need to be able to use Ballad of Resto, and at least 1 energy attack skill to be viable as a moti paragon, so thats the challenge. Present me with that bar, or the change has the effect that I intended. --Angelic Loki 07:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure. First, put lots of passive refrains and finales on your party. To do this, bring a single cheap adrenalin shout. Once this passive shit is in place, then begin spamming TPIY. Nobody said you couldn't bring adrenalin skills? -- NUKLEAR IIV 13:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm saying with my proposed buff/nerf, which would disable you're adrenal shouts for the 10 seconds instead of causing 10 degen. It seems like we've been discussing based on 2 different skills. --Angelic Loki 03:26, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

"Lots" and "finales and refrains" don't belong into the same sentence. --Spura 05:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

They do, in paraway. -- NUKLEAR IIV 11:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Reset indent. Paraway isn't what this skill should be balanced around, since it wont be used in paraway. BiP is a much better strategy when you have a build that is THAT defensive, and has no midline/frontline for this skill to power. Its kinda like, well, a 2 second incoming could be powerful if 8 paragons had it, but its not going to happen, since there are much better things to bring in that case. We need to balance this as though we want it to be used in a balanced GvG team, then if offshoots happen, deal with them as they come. I dont, offhand, see how this could be extremely abused other then having 2 copies of it supplying a monk with tons of energy, but 2 Mot paragons is a waste of paragon, and there are many other ways of pressuring a monk other then edenial. Such as death :P or diversion. --Angelic Loki 02:16, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Lann's discussion

I have to say,I find that change broken, and only because warriors get use of the regeneration as well. That just begs for bull's. -- NUKLEAR IIV 11:24, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Ends on next attack skill? --Lann 01:03, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Now that I think of it, 15 duration is too much. Pretty much every class would love that. -- NUKLEAR IIV 08:35, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

15 at 3 = 12.5 energy for everyone. Plus it would probally have a 30 second recharge. --Lann 20:54, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

That's pretty win for an elite, especially when you consider that this is irremovable and provides regen, which is slightly better than direct gain. -- NUKLEAR IIV 21:16, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually direct is better than regen. That is like comparing woh to healing breeze. --Lann 20:23, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Completely different comparison. Direct energy gain is subject to denial. You can't effectively deny regen. -- NUKLEAR IIV 20:59, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Um yes you can. Wither, malaise, panic, ether phantom to name a few. --Lann 18:08, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

And they are common compared to, say, eburn and Deliberating shot? -- NUKLEAR IIV 19:54, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

It has to do with the different nature of Energy and Health Lann. When the enemy hits someone hard you need health right away and thus direct healing > health regen. But with energy, you rarely need energy in bursts. Energy shortage comes over time, it's a battle of attrition. Thus Energy Regen works just as well as direct energy gain for the purpose of preventing running out of energy. Energy regen also possesses the advantage of harder denial and it doesn't waste as easily. --Spura 10:10, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, nuclear proved my point pretty well. There is more common direct energy loss than energy degen. --Lann 14:07, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Which is why direct gain is worse than regen? -- NUKLEAR IIV 14:08, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Idk it was your statement. --Lann 20:19, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Skill is fine

Look at it this way this skill is generating an overall 8 energy, plus 5 more for the para who uses it for a mere 4 adren that doesn't even have a recharge after using it. While this doesn't give a targeted party member a whole heap of energy, it DOES give consistant energy gains across the team at all times during a fight and allows the paragon using this to not ever need to worry about energy himself. Let's not also forget that it makes refrains limitless in length and triggers every finale you have active very rapidly. What most people are suggesting here would easily make the para broken again. --Ckal Ktak 08:00, 22 July 2009 (UTC)