ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Paragon/Ideas for the Paragon

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This would be a radical change for the paragon probably changing the way it is played. Examples as they are listed might be overpowered but can be changed if implemented for greater balance.

E-energy

A-adrenaline

SA-seconds to activation

R-seconds of recharge

Leadership

Change Leadership to "You gain 1+ energy regeneration while you are under the affects of your own shout (If the paragon is gaining too much energy, you could remove this). You gain an additional 1+ energy regeneration for every two allies while they are under the effects of your shouts or chants (maximum 1+ energy regeneration for every 4 ranks)." This is to make it harder to spam energy shouts and chants since the energy gain isn't immediate. The paragon would gain the full benefit of the shout or chant when it ends. Also, the paragon would only be able to gain at the most 5+ energy regeneration no matter how many different shouts or chants they have on allies. In return, the paragon gains a little more energy over time (around 15 energy for a 10 second shout or chant). If two paragons brought the same chant, Song of Restoration either neither of them could benefit from leadership or leadership could only benefit the allies closest to each paragon. Either way, the two paragons do not gain the full benefit of leadership. Unfortunately, it doesn't benefit 4-6 people groups anymore than the current leadership does. Leadership could be changed to "For every 3 ranks in leadership you gain 1+ energy regeneration if an ally other than yourself is affected by one of your shouts or chants." This way, a paragon is able to do gain more energy in smaller parties but probably has the potential to create imbalance.

Chants

Change chants to a more passive effect that gives more of an effect over time rather than an effect when certain conditions are met. Also, change the effects of the chants to affect allies or party members while they are in the earshot of the chanter. While the paragon is in the earshot of the paragon, allies are able to “hear” the chant and benefit from it. When the paragon is not in their earshot, they do not benefit from the chant since the can not hear it. Lastly, it isn't reasonable to chant 2-5 chants at the same time or shout a statement in the middle of a song, so only allow one chant to be in affect at a time. If a paragon uses another shout or chant while chanting, that chant is stopped and the new shout or chant is activated. Also, you could make some of the chants, such as the healing and defensive ones, decrease attacking speed so that the paragon can not do too much damage. This way, in order to use adrenaline skills (like the many found in spear mastery) more quickly and do a little more damage while using chants, they would have to use Aggressive Refrain (which would decrease armor), use the elite Soldier’s Fury, or use a skill from another profession. You could also lower the armor but that would deter any lower armored professions from using them. After that, give chants a slight buff to make them as good or greater than shouts and make them more versatile since they can not be used so carelessly. In something like RA, a chant such as Anthem or Flame would be of some use to a group even if all the others were casters. For example:

Anthem of Flame 15 E, 1 SA, 20 R "Chant. For 10 seconds while party members are in your earshot, their attack causes 1...2 seconds of burning and double if it was an attack skill once every 3 seconds. This chant ends if you activate another chant or shout."

Song of Restoration 15 E, 1 SA, 20 R. "Elite Chant. For 10 seconds while party members are in your earshot, they gain 2...10 health each second and double if that ally is activating a skill. You attack 25% slower and the chant ends if you activate another chant or shout." (The party members in earshot could gain 1+...5+ health regeneration instead but the paragon would not be vulnerable to skills like Scourge Healing which would cause 67 damage each second at 12 smiting prayers per person affected by this chant.)

Hexbreaker Aria 8 A, 2 SA, 10 R. "Chant. For 10 seconds while party members are in your earshot, hexes on them expire 5...40% faster. While under this chant, if any party member cast a spell, they lose 1 hex and can not be affected for the rest of the duration of the chant. You attack 25% slower and the chant ends if you activate another chant or shout."

Anthem of Disruption 15 E, 1 SA, 20 R. "Chant. For 1...5 seconds while party members are in your earshot, enemy skills targeting them take an additional .25...1 second to cast. While under this chant, if any party member uses an attack skill, they interrupt an action and can not be affected for the rest of the duration the chant. You attack 25% slower and the chant ends if you activate another chant or shout."

Ballad of Restoration 15 E, 1 SA, 20 R. "Chant. For 10 seconds while party members are in your earshot, if any party member takes damage, they are healed for 5...20% of the damage. You attack 25% slower and the chant ends if you activate another chant or shout."

Defensive Anthem 15 E, 2 SA, 25 R “Elite Chant. For 1…12 seconds while party members are in your earshot, they have a 50% chance to block incoming attacks. While under this chant, if any party member uses an attack skill, they do an additional 5+…10+ damage and can not be affected for the rest of the duration of the chant. This chant ends if you activate another chant or shout."

Aria of Zeal 10 E, 1 SA, 20 R "Chant. For 3...10 seconds while party members are in your earshot, they gain 1+ energy regeneration and triple if they are casting a spell.

Song of Concentration 8 A, 2 SA, 5 recharge "Chant. For 10 seconds while allies are in your earshot, whenever an ally in earshot would have been interrupted, they are not and you lose 15...8 energy. This chant ends if you activate another chant or shout."

Echoes

Change all echoes to benefit chants more than shouts. With the changes, shouts and chants can be used to maintain refrains but they only gain benefits from chants. It makes since finales and refrains are both musically related. Also, change them to only benefit from the person who activated the shout or chant. The changes to echoes make them much easier to stop since they will end or not have any affect if the person is not under the affects of one of the paragon's shout or chants and would not be affected as much by ursans. If one chant is interrupted and the paragon does not cast another chant or shout in time or does not have the energy to cast another chant or shout, all refrains will be removed and all finales will not have any affect. This would also mean that echoes do not become overpowered when other shouters and chanters are in the party and weak when only one paragon is in the party.

Refrains

Soldier's Fury 5 E, 1 SA, 5 R "Elite Echo. While you are under the affect of your chant, you attack 33% faster and gain 10...33% more adrenaline. If you are not under the effect one of your shouts or chants for 3...10 seconds, this skill ends."

Mending Refrain 5 E, 1 SA, 8 R "Echo. While target ally is under the affects of your chant, that ally gains 1...4 pips of health. If that ally is not under the effect one of your shouts or chants for 1...5 seconds, this skill ends."

Aggressive Refrain 10 E 2 SA 20 R "Echo. While you are under the affects of your chant, you attack 25% faster but have -20 armor. If you are not under the effect one of your shouts or chants for 1...5 seconds, this skill ends." (This change would basically force a paragon to either use an ias from another profession, unless a skill like Natural Temper was changed to an ias, if they want to do more damage with higher armor. Spear mastery might need a little buff after this.)

Hasty Refrain 5 E, 1 SA, 10 R "Echo. While target ally is under the affects of your chant, that ally moves 25% faster. If that ally is not under the effect one of your shouts or chants for 1...2 seconds, this skill ends." or it could be changed to a finale (see finales below)

Finales

For finales, you could leave them the way they are (without benefits they give with shouts), or you could make them like refrains, except not maintainable. They could also be changed to give bonuses when a chant ends This way, benefits, especially healing, can be a little more controlled and more direct (since the paragon could force the chant to end by activating another shout or chant).

Finale of Restoration

- 5 E, 1 SA, 10 R "Echo. For 10...35 seconds, target ally gains 2..8 health every second (or 4+ health regeneration) while under the effect of your chant."

- 10 E, 1 SA, 10 R "Echo. For 15 seconds, the next time a chant you are maintaining ends, all party members in earshot gain 15…75 health and this echo ends”

Blazing Finale

- 10 E, 1 SA, 10 R "Echo. For 10...35 seconds, foes adjacent to target ally are set on fire for 1...2 seconds every 10...3 seconds for while that ally is under the effects of your chant."

- 10 E, 1 SA, 10 R "Echo. For 15 seconds, the next time a chant you are maintaining ends, adjacent foes to all party members in earshot are set on fire for 2…6 seconds and this echo ends.

Hasty Finale

- 10 E, 1 SA, 6 R "Echo. For 5...20 seconds, target ally moves 33% faster while under the effects of your chant."

- 10 E, 1 SA, 10 R "Echo. For 15 seconds, the next time a chant you are maintaining ends, all party members in earshot move 25% faster for 2…10 seconds and this echo ends”

Purifying Finale

- 5 E, 1 SA, 8 R "Echo. For 10...35 seconds, target ally loses 1 condition every 10...5 seconds while under the effects of your chant."

- 5 E, 1 SA, 10 R "Echo. For 15 seconds, the next time a chant you are maintaining ends, all party members in earshot move lose 1…2 conditions and this echo ends”

Energizing Finale

- 5 E 1 SA, 5 R "Echo. For 10...35 seconds, target ally gain 1+ energy regeneration while under the effects of your chant."

- 10 E, 1 SA, 10 R "Echo. For 15 seconds, the next time a chant you are maintaining ends, all party members in earshot gain 1…4 energy and this echo ends”

Armor Change Centurion's Insignia to "Armor +15 while not affected by a Shout, Echo, or Chant (or maybe just +10 armor) and change motivation shields spear shields. This way paragons that use completely motivation will usually have only 80 AL when they don't have a shield (since chants would be the main way to heal in motivation) so paragons that use a completely motivation build do not have as much armor. Even though its still more than monks and ritualist it is still lower than 106 AL. Paragons that use spear and command would have more armor (96 for paragons that use the chants in commands and 111 for paragons that use spear and the shouts in command making them both essentially ranged tactics warriors) Change Aggressive Refrain to have a drawback of -10 armor so if the paragon decides to use both spear and motivation he/she would gain 6 armor and do more damage but less healing.

Anti-Shout/Chant skills

Certain skills would probably need to be changed to better counter the affects of the changes to chants. For example, Cacophony “Hex Spell. For 10 seconds, whenever target foe uses a shout or chant, that foe takes 35…105 damage. If that target is maintaining a chant, that for takes 4…20 damage each second.”

Overall, I attempted to make paragons more versatile and balanced. Through the changes, hopefully the underpowered shouts and chants can be buffed to some usefulness, more diverse builds can be created for the paragon, and command and motivation can be buffed so paragons will not have to turn to warrior shouts (and you could probably allow leadership to only affect paragon attributed shouts and chants to discourage it). The change to leadership would hopefully increase the need for energy management and decisions since shouts and chants can not simply be spammed for energy. Chants and echos, even though they are irremovable, would be more sensitive to interrupts and energy management since if the paragon does not have enough energy or chants (and through skills like vocal minority, shouts) are not constantly on party members, all echoes would end and the paragon would have to start over. Also, some of the suggestions were aimed at balancing builds that provide lots of defensive and damage capabilities to the point of imbalance and also balancing multiple paragons and buffing single paragons. Again, some of the examples I put typed may have been overpowered but can be changed for greater balance. --Harmony 02:07, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I read the entire thing, and in my opinion you are over nerfing an already bad class. Paragons are only decent really with large numbers and even then its not that immense, currently paragons have a slight nook in a good majority of GvG builds and that nook is getting smaller and smaller. We dont want to completly annihalate the class just weaken it a slight amount 76.26.189.65 03:56, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure how I'm over nerfing paragons with this idea but I might have been confusing or made a mistake. Changing leadership to give energy by regeneration and not more with multiple shouts was to prevent spamming and unlimited energy gain though adrenaline shouts/chants. A paragon that uses more than one chant or shout does not gain benefits from both but over time, the paragon gains more energy than the current leadership does though it might need to be increased a little more. Also, even though a chant would end if you used another chant or shout, shouts can still be used in the same build and I attempted to make them more useful to all type of parties no matter what type of chant it was. For example, after activating a chant, the paragon could use various skills then near the end of the chants duration, activate another chant. During that 1-2 second activation, they could use as much shouts as they can since they have no activation. Most shouts have at least a 10 second duration like chants so can be easily reapplied again if the paragon has the energy. Also, the 25% decrease in attack speed for some chants would only really apply to healing and defensive chants. This was the paragon was to make sure the paragon doesn't do too much damage while completely supporting with healing or defense. If they decide to bring a spear while supporting (like many builds do now) they to more damage after using something like aggressive refrain but less power in healing or damage. The offensive chants found mostly in command, like Anthem of Envy wouldn't need to have that 25% decrease so a paragon can invest in command, spear mastery, and leadership and make a build devoted to damage, helping the party do more damage directly (through spears) and indirectly (through chants and shouts that cause the party to do more damage and cause conditions). Lastly, I changed echoes so that they would only have an effect while party members are under your chant so that they were more more vulnerable to aoe skills but have more powerful and possibly direct effects. Even though chants and echoes wouldn't be able to be removed directly, they would be able to be stopped through pressure energy denial and interrupts. Even the energy needed for some shouts might need to be decreased. My examples might have over nerfed them through the cost or effect but those numbers can be changed. Its just the idea behind the suggestions I was trying to convey. --Harmony 21:45, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Added a suggestion for armor. --Harmony 15:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I've said this in other palces too. but i'll say it here. Just add Vocal was sologon and you've got overpowered 76.188.100.220 19:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Then they can nerf Vocal Was Sogolon. -- Gordon Ecker 22:00, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Vocal Was Sogolon is in Restoration line. Paragon needs Leadership, at leas at 12 to gain 6 energy back plus another line to use shout or chants, Thats 1)Leadership, 2)Command/Motivation, 3)Spear Mastery and 4)Restoration Magic. Four attributes to do that plus almost all of his chants/shouts finishes with one action, leaving Vocal Was Sogolon and Enduring Harmony useless.--ShadowFog 19:06, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting that Vocal Was Sogolon is overpowered right now, was refuting 76.188.100.220's criticism of Harmony's suggestion: that they would be overpowered due to Vocal Was Sogolon, by suggesting that, should the changes be overpowered in conjunction with VWS, VWS could easily be nerfed. -- Gordon Ecker 02:51, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Please Gods

Please Don't take the Nurf Stick to what we have now. AlysWarder 16:31, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, in your issue you are talking about PvE. Try playing EotN Master missions, quest and dungeon where you can find Groups of only Air Spikers, dont go far, try NightFall instead, if you are complaining because they provide high armor but just for PvE, then dont take human paragon players in your party since they heroes and henchmen cant use PvE skills.--ShadowFog 19:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Deletion?

I see NuclearVII has been busy with stuff heh. Why the deletion? theres no "Wall and walls of text..." here. Removing it.--ShadowFog 15:18, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Deletion policy forbids you from doing so without discussion.

So, Let's discuss: The suggestion page consists of "Well, I thing x and y is not right with gons, so look in the discussion for the solution". It doesn't work that way here. By definition, if Izzy has to look in the discussion, the page is poorly done (Read: that was why we reverted the old system because looking at the huge walls of rants generated at the discussion pages.

Let's move on the the discussion page: Two sections above is the suggestions, and that place is huge. too huge - izzy doesn't have the time nor the intention of going through them in one sweepin' motion. We know, that's why the old system was shut down.

Furthermore, the above section suggests multiple changes to many skills. I'm not saying they are incorrect, but I am saying making one big huge list is not helpful. From the past, we know izzy doesn't bother (neither would I, tbh) reading insanely long pages, and any section that I need to scroll through is long by definition. If you want your suggestions noticed, post them where they belong - the individual skill feedback pages. As it is, not only is it unhelpful, but also a deadweight.

Finally, it does not abide by our formating policy. That would warrant a cleanup tag, but since after the suggestions are distributed around, there ain't going to be much left here, so, therefore, a delete tag seemed more potent/time saving.

My request? Distribute those individual skills to their appropriate pages. After that, we'll talk. Since I respect that you want to keep the integrity of this page, I'll add a cleanup tag instead of a deletion one - but that will change in the future as I've mentioned. -- NUKLEAR IIV 16:12, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

What Izzy does we cant be certain, dont know whether he will read it or how he manages thing but Thanks for understanding.--ShadowFog 16:18, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

But we can understand. He has stated before he has had trouble reading and commenting on skill pages due to length. 'It is why we adopted a new system. Furthermore, it's common sense - nobody would bother reading that huge wall of text.

Please cleanup this page If you don't, I would be compelled to put the delete tag back in. -- NUKLEAR IIV 16:20, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I just bought the guy a spare time. Let's hope he's reading this, if not it is his neck, I mean, then proceed with deletion.--ShadowFog 16:24, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

all the suggestions listed above

would completely ANNIHILATE paragons. dont listen to any of them.--66.192.104.13 22:05, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

As the person above failed to say, The proposed changes would give paragons up to 5 energy regen. Thats higher than spell casting primarys. What prevents me from taking a party wid chant and a bunch of spells? This just creats a free energy gimmick for no reason. 66.215.83.191 21:19, 24 June 2009 (UTC)