ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Paragon/Solving the Paragon Issue

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Shouts/Chants end on crits

As i already said, i really like this idea :) Though it's as it's proposed too strong again, fleeing foes will easyly lose their Shouts/Chants, and crits are especially for sins quite common, and there are also skills that can force them. Additionally, instead of losing all Shout/Chant effects with one crit, one should maybe only lose one per crit. —ZerphaThe Improver 10:57, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

It was supposed to be one per crit. I have changed the text a bit, so it shouldn't be confusing anymore. Losing all shouts, etc. on a single 'crit' would really be terrible... ^^ A. von Rin 15:16, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

How is this a good idea? How will this stop paraway, which is the biggest problem with paragons at the moment. You crit them for 100, then Song of Restoration gives them 110 back. They key to fixing paragons is in changing the skills, not the game mechanics. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 05:44, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Being able to remove their chants and echoes balances a lot. They would have to reapply the skills, so recharge would matter - now it doesn't! And you just used one of few examples where it doesn't hurt Paragons when their shouts, etc. are removed (while shouts are not affected too hard with this solution, chants and echoes are!)... A. von Rin 14:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree the Paragon is badly designed and need a makeover, I like this idea but I would also like to see a change in leadership, lowering their armor to 70, changeing all echoes to enchantments and after that see some major skill buffs.--85.225.131.244 03:53, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I dont like the idea of crits removing chants and shouts. But if the issue is not being able to remove them, why not rework some underused skills (there are plenty) and make them paragon buff removers or maybe even like earplugs (preventers) to the shouts/chants or something.--riceball 04:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

@ 85.225.131.244: Your other suggestions seems overkill to me. Echoes into Enchantments = they would completely lose their functionality. With my idea they already can be removed so you don't need this change. 70 armor = 1-2 more pips of energy regen. and I doubt that would be better, especially because my proposal shall force this class to "spam" their skills and cause energy pressure, together with a higher importance of recharge time... @Riceball: This idea is bad, because it forces the BuildWars feeling even more than we already have (and you could buff them together with my suggestion, too)... A. von Rin 18:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I am behind on the lingo for PvP, since I dont PvP much, but what is this "build wars" concept. To me that means different kinds of builds/thought processes battling each other, which is what I thought Guild Wars is all about.--riceball 21:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

BuildWars how I understand it = You need special skills to be able to defeat another special build. You need to specialize and will have bad chances against everything else because of your anti-build skills that don't help you in other situations. And mechanics that only can be defeated this way are far from being balanced, which sucks in PvP. My idea would mean a auto remove on a % chance (crits), which solves the problem of endless enduring echoes and unremovable stacking buffs on Paragons (especially Paraway). A. von Rin 21:40, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Meh, the way it works now it is abit of Build Wars where the paragon is left in the dark because noone wants to bring specific counter to it instead they go on and say that it needs alot of nerfs instead, echos -> enchantment would solve that and then they could buff the paragon tree after. 70 armor well I dont really mind either way but I think it would be fair since they are a ranged profession. And leadership needs a change too the way it works now it is disencouraging to use many of the paragons shouts narrowing them down to only one playstyle.--85.225.130.124 11:48, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Inexperienced players love to spew the "learn2counter" line against Paragons as if it means anything. There isn't really a whole lot you can do to them, most of what they do is not time-sensitive or predictable so spot disruption doesn't work too well, long-term disruption like Vocal only really works if you're running a hex build. In practice, they're fairly balanced right now, but the design of the class is still horrible. Auto-reapply echoes are the most passive thing in the game right now, shouts are a close second. Riotgear 09:28, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Wtf... this is a stupid solution. It's not going to work. Why run a physical without being able to crit and be effective? 76.64.189.222 04:39, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Anon, you didn't understand anything... A. von Rin 17:50, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

@ someone near the top: You're right in that there's more to paragon imbalances than the skills, but as I stated, skills need to be changed first. You can change how chants and shouts work all you want, but as long as they're stackable (especially the motivation heal parties), removing them will do nothing. Your idea to counter a currently unstoppable mechanic is nice, but not the biggest problem. Chants need to be stack-proof before adding counters to them. ~Shard (talk) 22:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

well, not only that, shard, but this seriously puts a nail in all refrains and echoes. Even if they received buff, uncontrolled endings is a bit.. iffy. but hey, go for it. NUKLEAR IIV 18:59, 22 April 2008 (UTC)