Feedback talk:User/Erasculio/Pre-made teams for elite areas

Disagree

I don't believe anything that makes an Elite area even relatively easy to play is good for the game. The reason they are elite areas is because they are difficult. They require (or should imo) a good overall knowledge of the game, and skills, and team formation. By removing these basic knowledge requirements by giving them a premade team with set bars, there is relatively no challenge, no demonstration of overall game skill, or team play. I agree that Ursan was the absolutely worst thing ArenaNet ever did to PvE play in Guild Wars. It completely destroyed players desire to meet and beat the challenge posed by these areas. Since the Ursan nerf, people have only looked for other (Cryway, perma SF) easy and fast ways to complete them, and it has forever ruined it. Please don't give people yet another excuse to be lazy and not be good enough to beat the inherent challenges of elite areas with yet another gimmick. -- Wyn talk 15:27, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The thing is, as far as I understood, the PAX live team panel had Linsey describing how Arena Net took a long time to nerf Ursan Blessing and have yet to nerf Shadow Form because these skills allow players to easily access areas which they wouldn't otherwise play in, and that's something Arena Net actually liked. Granted, that's my interpretation of what was said and I may have understood it wrong (in which case this suggestion would be pointless), but if Arena Net is trying to give players easy access to the so-called elite parts of the game, I would rather have the system proposed here than skills like Shadow Form and Ursan Blessing. Erasculio 15:34, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I totally agree with Wyn on this one. --SilentStorm 15:45, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree and disagree. It is a very real issue for Anet:A huge part of the playerbase lacks skill. SUch players still wants to enjoy the game. Which they will do better if there is more variety, and not areas they are prohibited from playing in. OTOH, it is also true that gw was eplicitly marketed as a game where skill would matter. There is a unusualy large playerbase who wants skill to be the determining factor. These players are more important per induvidual than others since they are the ones the do things that benefit Anet apart from initial purchases. And unlike a certain other company, Anet doesn't have the resources to just put out ever more areas to make sure there is ones for everyone. They have to maximise the use of what they have.

So while I agree with the good sides of the idea, it fais to deal with the second part of the issue. I'd much prefer to see the split made independent of content access. There already exists one such split. Hard mode. I say go with that, expand on the idea, revert nerfs to PvE skills, make SForm a PvE skill (switch functionality with one). And then: DIsallow PvE skills in Hard Mode. Backsword 16:38, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

All I can say is that if ArenaNet really feels the way Erasculio has interpreted what was said, they are sadly off the mark imo. Before Ursan, DOA was a vibrant almost always populated area, yes, there were complaints that "my favorite profession can't find a group" but I rarely had that problem, and even so, I worked my butt off to get the professions that could easily find groups there (which btw, included buying extra character slots). After Ursan, it didn't matter what profession you were, but if you weren't rank 10 Ursan, there were no groups (I didn't do a single Ursan group, nor did I grind a single character to rank 10 just so I could). Now, DOA is just deserted, with only the random alliance/guild group, or whatever gimmick of the month is running. It makes me really sad since I had more fun in DOA that any other single area of this game, I met more really fun people, and now it's all just gone. I blame Ursan for that. I and many other players value the challenge and the sense of satisfaction that is gained by beating it legitimately, without gimmicks. -- Wyn talk 16:47, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I think Backsword raises a good point and has a good solution, but to say the truth I'm more worried about the rest of the game than about the elite areas. Between the current state (Shadow Form is used everywhere), a state in which Shadow Form and alikes would be used everywhere but in the elite areas, and a state in which gimmicks would be used only in the elite areas, I would rather have the latter (of course, ideally we would not have gimmicks anywhere, but I doubt that's going to happen). This way, the core of Guild Wars (the missions and quests) would be safe from the more deranged kinds of gameplay. Erasculio 17:08, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

"I and many other players value the challenge and the sense of satisfaction that is gained by beating it legitimately, without gimmicks."

She said it all. I even find RuneScape more interesting than Guild Wars nowdays. And that's sad :P - J.P.Talk 17:10, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

/signed Wyn's Comment. Almost every class was wanted in DoA before Ursan and it was great Fun. You met nice and funny ppl and met them again in pugs. And it was always fun and one had a great time. And even if you were playing an unwanted class you could go DoA even though not necessarly with Pugs. Ursan killed DoA and now instead of beeing repopulated and fun again as I hoped it would be after the Ursan nerf its just dead and all thats left is ppl running another broken gimmick shit. I too enjoyed DoA the most in all of GW. The only time there is action in DoA is when its a Zaishen Quest and then its all just noobs that are unable of even running the most broken most easy gimmick. --SilentStorm 02:13, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Maybe the premade bars should be non-gimmick. MAYBE the pve skills should reward good use (e.g. CoP rewarding interrupting), and maybe pve foes should be designed to encourage skillful play. HM shouldn't be able to be exploited (like the +33%IAS capped which makes it easy to abuse reckless haste and SS/Empathy/etc.). Players weren't encouraged to play skillfully since ursan came in and arent encouraged now because the GWLT is hesitant to nerf invincibility. Back to on topic this premade team idea is something I would like to see (ofc no mending whammo). As an extra specification: Not just the attributes should be changed temporary, but titles too. --Boro 09:53, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not a fan of pre-made bars and pre-made teams. Elite areas are NOT supposed to be for elite players, they are end game content to add a challenge or something to do once completeing the game - there is nothing wrong with Normal Mode being completed by every player, the hard core people always have Hard Mode. The designers did not spend large amounts of development time creating areas like Urgoz/Deep/Domain simply for 1% of the player base. I agree Ursan was bad for the game but I don't think Wyn is thinking far back enough like Linsey did (Linsey has been playing longer). End game (since 2005) has always revolved around gimmicks and a handful of builds (once they were discovered) - long before Ursan or Shadow Form were on the map. I have completed all elite areas many times when they were first released and the optimum builds were unknown. Even though I know I am capable of doing it these days I can't unless I play the predetermined class, and in some cases (Factions Elite Missions), not at all. Part of the problem is the balance in these areas forces players into desiring the overpowered techniques provided by Shadow Form and Ursan instead of looking to a balanced party, which is an inferior option. A start would be allowing 7/11 heroes to be brought into elite areas. Actively nerfing skills like Shadow Form would also help, sure something would take its place but the gap between Shadow Form and balanced play is too big at the moment. Tuning the areas to be more forgiving of players in normal mode allowing them to complete it for once would also be nice. 58.110.88.153 10:08, 13 September 2009 (UTC)