Feedback talk:User/Falconeye/Echoes as Virtues

Brain Fart This material needs all the help it can get. (I'm sure I meant something mo' better.)

OK to edit You have permission to edit this page as long as you respect its intent. (I reserve the right to revert.)

Overview

Echoes are signature abilities exclusive to the paragon profession. These abilities apply continuous passive benefits to the paragon as that character adventures; or they can be activated, granting an immediate benefit to all earshot allies. Activating one of these echoes will disable its passive effect until that ability recharges once again. Each echo has its own recharge so may be used independently of the others.

The benefits of the same echoes do not stack. Two paragons using the same echo at the same time will not increase the effects of the echo. Different echoes do not have this limitation.

Additional Cost & Drawbacks

To avoid over-stacking and spam abuse, which should be included (or excluded)?

• Echoes require upkeep
  • Pros: Allows Echoes to be maintained indefinately,
  • Cons: Energy starved profession; Only 2 pips of energy regen.
  • Reason: Similar to how bonds are used. Lore-wise it fits with Guardian.

• Echoes overide themselves.
  • Pros: Non-stacking; allows for Echo cancelling and End effect.
  • Cons: Non-stacking; Problematic with more then 2 paragons in a party.
  • Reason: Similar to how stance and weapon spell skills are used.

• Echoes disable themselves
  • Pros: Bestowing a temporary benefit to all earshot allies (including themselves)...
  • Cons: ...At the cost of being disabled for a long period.
  • Reason: Similar to how dervish avatars are used.

• Echoes have an intrinsic benefit
  • Pros: Intrinsic benefit while equipped in the skill bar and that can be activated for a greater effect...
  • Cons: ...At the cost of losing passive bonus while recharging for a long period.
  • Reason: Similar to how signet skills are used.

--Falconeye 00:28, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Finales and Refrains

• Talamare's Proposal
  • Finales require you to remove a chant from allies for them trigger. (instead of upon ending)
  • Refrains continually renew while under the effects of a chant. (instead of upon ending)

• Damysticreaper's Proposal
  • Finales an instant active effect. (instead of upon ending)
  • Refrains a passive effect. (instead of upon ending)

Variations

Angelic

Requires you to remove a chant from allies for them trigger.

(Post your ideas here)

Finales

Triggered whenever a Chant or Shout ends on earshot allies.

(Post your ideas here)

Refrains

Reapplied whenever a Chant or Shout ends on the earshot allies.

(Post your ideas here)

Requiem

Tiggered for each foe in earshot.

(Post your ideas here)

Harmonic

Renews while under the effects of a chant.

(Post your ideas here)

Leader's

(Post your ideas here)

Discussion

If only one echo can be active at a time on a character i fail to understand the reason for the disabling time and the short recharge other than just mimicing the Avatars. If it's to prevent spamming them just give them a longer recharge. More important is that it lacks balance for both PvE and PvP alike, it definitly needs some splits. Those that are OP are Aggressive Refrain: maintainable party wide non elite 25% IAS without a drawback for only 5-2 energy, same goes for Hasty Refrain, Soldier's Fury and Natural Temper. Second is the cost, have you forgotten your own suggestion about the effect of Leadership reducing the cost of shouts, chants and echoes? The Refrains definitly need to be balanced better with a drawback and the Finale's need a PvP split with a cap on the ammount of times they can trigger. You might also want to have a closer look at party heal and energy managment echoes, they are OP when combined with "The Power Is Yours!". The idea of party wide effects is good but copying their current effects into party wide echoes is not the way to go. Take a second look at your suggestion and then take a good look at other echo suggestions and see how they are balanced (if they are balanced). When you have done that take a good look at your owns suggestion and balance it, because like most of your skill suggestions it's quite a bit overpowered and imbalanced. Well one more thing that comes to my thought is an IAS for the paragon, don't forget that it needs one.

So summing it up what needs to change is; Cost, Recharge, Drawbacks, PvP split and a viable IAS for the paragon. Da Mystic Reaper 12:33, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

1. What I am really concerned is finding the "keystone" to the additional costs, restrictions and drawbacks; if I can nail those, then all others factors will fall into place. Disabling has proven to be a bust after careful consideration; which leaves me exploring the possibility of "Non-stacking", "Unkeep", and "Passive-effect". Which would be best?
2. Most feedback contributed by me is geared towards "PvE-general"; unless specified otherwise through <skill name (PvP)>, which will likely be done after PvE portion is hammered out. If suggestions appears overpowered, its mainly due to being easier to scale-back/delete stuff then to write it. There has been instances where "conservative suggestions" were posted, only to have Anet "kick it up a notche" beyond expectations (Ray of Judgement update being the only exception in recent memory).
3. Leadership was not forgotten, but by that point I was mentally exhausted and chose to sleep on it. Agreed on the Cost, Sub-types and mentioned OP skills; will work on them after issue #1 is solved.
4. Health/Energy management echoes is another issue, especially with shouts, that may require complete rework; still figuring out how to integrate old Leadership function into Echoes (similar to how old Mysticism fuction was integrated into Avatars and select utility skills).
5. Should paragons have a non-echo IAS, or other support skills? I essentially yanked every paragon skill that wasnt a Shout/Chant/Signet/Attack and drafted them into an Echo. Current Count is 18 echoes; up from 11! Is this overkill? And if so, should some of these be made into Stances?
6. Thanks for responding!

--Falconeye 03:57, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Well when you plan on making such suggestions and mainly when it involves skills work it out on paper first. When it's a large suggestion don't do it all at once but in sepperate parts since you have more time to think it trough and you can adjust and correct errors. It will also be easier on your body as well as your mind. But yeah the Paragon could really use an IAS stance and a defensive stance since it lacks both, it's the reason i chose to change Natural Temper, Soldier's Fury and Spear Swipe. Well thats a little advice from my part, i'll wait and see what you are going to do with the skills (you might want to note the changes in the summary). Da Mystic Reaper 22:14, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, this is closest to a "Final Draft" as can be, considering paragons are not my area of expertise... and that ther is little to add that has n ot already been covered by superior Paragon-feedback contributors... feel free to fine-tune and nerf this baby mercilessly. Took liberty of playing around with new mechanics and nomanclature ideas; perhaps others can do better. (Been going though serious "writers block" due to real-life circumstances.) As predicted, this "inspired" Mora's feedback page. ^_^ --Falconeye 01:15, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I actually don't like the effects of refrains/echos/chants on every member in earshot -> OP as hell, also you need a covered shutdown in PvP (necro) to get this anoying stuff out. Old "The Power Is Yours!" is elite for a good reason 'coz of its effect. "Crippling Anthem" and "Anthem of Weariness" could be the same OP for melee/ranged teams, there should be a complete rework of this class but i don't like active/passive stuff. Else it needs a very long activation time for skills to trigger echos on the the whole party in earshot. I also don't like the melee/ranged only effects of most chants, caster doesn't benefit in the most cases, also 95% of Paragon skills needs a requirement, thats poor too. --Kali Shin Shivara 02:00, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

In regards to shouts and chants, please voice your concerns on the excellent Feedback:User/Borotvaltgandalf/Paragon Focus; this article isnt meant to deal with those issues. As for Echoes as Virtues, what do you suggest? This is a open feedback and you are free to edit with better alterntives. --Falconeye 02:56, 30 September 2011 (UTC)