Feedback talk:User/Flipper/Team Morale

Interesting idea but it still wouldn't address the problem of Monk-Crutching ...IoW the Annoying and unending reality that a game with 9 unique Classes and almost a hundred perfectly viable Hybrid-Classes, has a player base where almost every single Pick-Up-Group being formed expects 1 out of 3 of it's members to be a Healing Monk or RoJ Monk. In other words, if you have, say, 9 character slots... chances are only ONE of them is really welcome on most teams 66% of the time. THAT'S why H/H'ing has always been the only option for so many people.
...It's because Anet made a MASSIVE miscalculation from Day-1 of this game's development when they decided that all of the best healing and hex removal should all be limited to one single class. ...with that in mind: I'd encourage ya to think of other ways besides just global Armor & +DMG buffs to edge your way around this problem... For starters, there's a ton of Skills you face in almost every Area and Mission in this game that totally ignore your Armor Values. ...And increasing Damage is just pandering to everything that's already wrong with Hardmode team-minmaxxing. ...IoW: instead of bringing another damage dealer or spell disruptor, they'll just recruit an E/Mo or some other Pseudo-Monk so they can have FOUR Monks instead of just 2 or 3. ...Try considering some other buffs instead that are actually intended to replace Monks.... like +Regeneration, Reduction of Hex and Condition Durations, Reduced Death-Penalty when dying, Player's single-target Skills causing major Energy Denial, etc, etc... --ilr 22:58, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

You know I think these ideas could work well too. Could really be based on party size, area, or scale.

+1 health regen pip per [1,2,3..] human allies

+1 energy regen pip per [4,8..] human allies

+X% chance to block per [1,2,3..] human allies

+X% [element] resistance per [1,2,3..] human allies

+X% damage reflection per [1,2,3..] human allies... etc etc. Flipper 07:29, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

This is a really cool idea. I think giving all-player teams +24 armor might be problematic, but another effect could be given instead. ~Shard 03:12, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks :D The +24 armor bonus is just an example I thought of. Although with a henchmen party, the Ebon Battle Standard of Courage ward basically does the same thing, so this particular benefit is already widely in use in PVE, but I agree other effects could be useful too. Flipper 07:29, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Personally, i think this a great start to a massive problem. For a very long time now, the 'best' team builds revolve around 1-2 tanks, a healer and several nukers to fill i the gaps. With this Team Moral you can stop that and shakes up the teams. +24 armor and +24% damage increases can be allot, especially with heavy hitting characters like dervs, warriors and assassins. Flaming Hot Chilli 06:46, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that. The key I think is to balance player incentive with gameplay, as the point of the benefit is to provide a small incentive, without being game-breaking, but it must be enough of an incentive to alter player recruiting patterns. Flipper 07:29, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

There already is a significant incentive to group with other people: PvE skills. I don't think giving out more carrots for playing with others is really going to achieve anything. People use H/H because they want the quasi-single-player experience, not because they think other players suck (although often they do, but that's another issue). -- Hong 12:41, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I don't like playing alone, but in many cases, my heroes are better than any PUG I find in certain places. So after some time I stopped bothering with other humans excepting in areas that require a battle strategy heroes cannon follow. MithTalk 13:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Sunspear Title

Merge both into one and make it the Sunspear title effect, and I'm in. It's the only title left with no effect (Luxon/Kurzick is in the Blessings instead the title, but it's there) and this matches perfectly the Sunspear "You never fight alone" motto. It doesn't even have to scale with the Sunspear title, but since the Sunspear title is the easiest to max, even that won't be a problem. MithTalk 00:25, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

This is a good idea, however would depend on players owning the Nightfall campaign. I imagine the Sunspear title would have to be reworked in some way to allow for this. Flipper 07:29, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

No F**kin title bonus!!!! --Boro 18:36, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Logic dictate that if the other titles have an effect, Sunspear should have one too. This is the perfect effect for that title. MithTalk 11:45, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Logic dictates that there shouldn't have been any title effects in a game of skill --Boro 16:35, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing illogical in time spent using skill bringing lasting benefits, as long as it doesn't affect PvP gameplay. MithTalk 19:58, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Game balance refers to both PvE and PvP, for one. For another, grinding titles for combat improvements goes against the "skill over time" thing GW was based on (there's nothing skillful about getting r10 sunspear, either). -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 21:29, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

PvE can't be balanced by definition. It's too diferent. It can only be limited. Excesses removed. But it's impossible to make both sides in PvE have equal footages. MithTalk 00:08, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Not quite. The point of game balance in PvE isn't to put both sides on the same standards; it's to make the game fun, challenging, and rewarding. Take a look at any console game; what makes it have good PvE, if not those qualities? -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 04:00, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

That's not balance. That's good design. Balance is when you make level several sides to make them equal, usually two sides. In games that's usually between two or more sides that compete. MithTalk 12:01, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Game balance is generally used to refer to PvP, yes (and, I believe, that was its original intent). However, when it comes to PvE, balance and good design are synonymous. (It's neither balance nor good design when an enemy can blow you up in two seconds without you being able to do anything about it, regardless of whether that enemy is a player or an AI creature.) -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 14:28, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Of course it is not good design if an NPC that is supposed to be defeated can't be defeated, it's quite the opposite: "bad design". But the NPC can be much stronger that a player and still be beatable, as we have seen countless times through the game. Two sides that are not equal at all. Two sides that are not balanced. If one is too strong, then what is added is not 'balance' but just removing the excess. In the same manner, a player can be way more powerful than any amount of certain NPCS, like happens with farming builds. A farming is not removed when it's successful, but when it's excessive. So, as you see, in PvP 'balance' is done, keepeing both sides as equal as possbile, but in PvE it's just 'trimming excess' keeping one side from getting way too stronger, without making them equal at all. MithTalk 17:09, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Guild Wars is unique in that farming builds are tolerated (that's generally considered "breaking the system" in other games). The huge balancing factor that you're not considering is the player's intellect, which is sufficient to balance a player against a monster in every case you've demonstrated.

I honestly don't see why you're nitpicking this so much, though. What are you accomplishing? -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 17:14, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Human intellect can't be balanced with more power in any side. What I say is that in PvE, both sides are too different to be balance-able. No matter how hard you try, you can't balance human mind and AI. There is no possible way to do that. You may get close in a turn-based game, but in a real time game it's literally impossible. All developers can do is remove excesses. And this won't be an excess, it just will be one more reason to choose players over AI, since their possible lackings will be aleviated a little with the effects of such a skill. I don't expect the rest of the players to be as good as me, but the 'mass' of the players is never as good as every single one, and in a multiplayer game is always better to have people playing toguether than people playing alone. Maybe +3 armor ad +3% damage is too much, but I can't see how would harm to add any kind of bonus for playing in teams, and since Sunspear is the easiest and fastest plot title to acquire, and all titles have been modified to make less important the highest rank of the title, this would be an effect easily available to anyone owning Nightfall, without justgiving it away: een with the title, they would have to team up with real players. MithTalk 17:31, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Even with this, I'd still rather take AI over humans, as the job gets done anyway and there's less chance of failure when you don't have to account for bad teammates. Also, grindy titles shouldn't grand bonuses in a skill-based game. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 17:40, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

In PvE better skills should get you the things sooner, not completely prevent you to get them if you lack those skills. Survivor now is nothing compared wit the first survivor. The first drop of a rare item is nothing compared with the last ones that drop masivelly when they are overfarmed. Time over skill doesn't necesariy means 'limitation for skill', it can perfectly mean "better results with skills". PvP is a though world, or at least it should be as thought as the thoughest player you might find, but I don't see why a poor kid that lacks mobility in both hands shouldn't completely enjoy PvE... just taking more time grinding a bit. Of course, is someone chooses to grind, then... well... I don't se why. When I get a title is either because I happed to do what the title awards, or just for the sake of getting the title and achieve completion, never for its effects. Of course many people in 'the mass of players' would go for the effects. But even with all titles and consumable and whatnot, skill always works better. MithTalk 20:12, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

You are making no sense. Would you care to try again? I think the main flaws in your reasoning are that grinding up titles takes skill and thus should lead to faster rewards and that someone with essentially one hand should be able to do PvE. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 20:59, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Hrm.

These look super pug-friendly. In a guild group, or a group with people who have played with each other and are optimizing their builds to work with each other (discordway, physicals-way, etc), you don't get (nearly) enough out of these effects to make it worth gimping your build. Randomway pugs, however, tend to have a hodgepodge of primary professions, giving them the greatest bonus here.

Either way, it's not like PvE needs to be made easier.

-- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 17:07, 1 October 2009 (UTC)