Feedback talk:User/IKenshinHimuraI/Assassin Skill Balance Ideas/archive 0

The argument

That's why Black Lotus Strike was nerfed to begin with.

How will recasting Locust's Fury every 10 seconds be user friendly?

Unsuspecting is fine as it is, there's no reason to make it weaker. Dealing 100 damage to only full health targets isn't that overpowering, especially when the skill only does 30 otherwise.

Assassin skills aren't supposed to be used frequently. Most of your attack skill recharges turn the assassin into more of a joke than they already are.

The added damage will bring it more inline with other offhand attacks. What other attacks cause deep wound on a 4 second cooldown?

Yes, golden phoenix should miss if you're not enchanted. Bypassing your lead attacks is extremely powerful to assassins. This is why Palm Strike is broken.

Shattering Assault does not deal +50 damage, it deals 50 damage.

Shadow stepping shouldn't exist in pvp at all, why do you want to make it better?

[Shadow Form] will be a split elite that makes it much easier to escape a base against a Water Ele or Cripshot ranger Why do you want to do this? ~Shard 21:08, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Black Lotus Strike was nerfed due to Blades of Steel and Impale being overpowered. This was just a bandaid fix to the Shadow Prison+Burst of Aggression bar- the skill itself was not overpowered.

Unsuspecting is too powerful in my opinion as the ability to do such high damage under any circumstance creates for Assassins the ability to "insta-kill" people.

The recharge added to the page for Golden Fang Strike was not added by me but whoever decided to help me make it look prettier. I changed it to 8 which is what it should be.

Shattering Assault should deal +50 damage. That is part of the change.

Shadow Stepping is part of the Assassin's mobility. In order to make them able to split effectively, or better than another class is by their ability to teleport. Which is why I am limiting their teleports to the primary attribute. I see no problem.

As for Shadow Form, that would be a great bonus to Assassin's ability to split as they will have an "oh shit" button in order to retreat. That would be far more useful than its current description. The idea is to bring as many options to Assassins as possible.

IKenshinHimuraI 07:28, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

if shatter does +50, it will become perma meta, considering the shattering combo is spammable, does high damage, and removes stances and enchants Talamare 10:03, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

If its that much of a concern you could easily raise its recharge to 8. I'll add that in.IKenshinHimuraI 03:16, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

No no no, please don't ask for the shadow prison sins to come back. And the whole point of Golden phoenix strike is that you're using an enchantment instead of a Lead, leave it alone. Expose Defenses, Black lotus strike, horns of the ox where nerfed for good reasons when they were too. Finally, Shattering assault is made for golden phoenix strike and fox fangs, don't ask that to be nerfed either because it allows sins to be deadly without the usual 1-2-3-4-5 nonsense since they can rip up enchantments instead. Also, sign your comments --Ckal Ktak 17:57, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

It isn't the same bar that will come back- the only broken part of the bar was Blades of Steel with a 1/4th cast Impale which equated to 360 damage in the duration of 1 second. Expose Defenses, Black Lotus Strike, and Horns of the Ox were nerfed BECAUSE of the Blades of Steel and Impale combo in order to just break the bar as a band-aid fix; they are not overpowered themselves. Because of that, they are now underpowered. Finally, the Golden Fox Strike -> Fox Fangs -> Shattering Assault is the "1-2-3-4-5 nonsense" as you put it. Assassins are not a frontline replacement, and the only place in a competitive build for that combo is in the frontline. Increasing the recharge and reducing the energy allows it to be an elite replacement for Blades of Steel that removes enchantments and does not need to be at the end of your combo. IKenshinHimuraI 03:16, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

why do you want to nerf Way of the Assassin even more if it would be changed like that way of the assassin would be worse than flurry 89.166.101.7 17:46, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

33% Would be a buff, not a nerf. And a 5 energy for 9 second IAS that is unconditional and does not reduce damage is much better than flurry. Flurry is not good. IKenshinHimuraI 07:38, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think you understand assassins. Here are things I won't argue about, simply because your stance on them is wrong on so many levels:

• Shadow stepping shouldn't exist at all.
• Shattering Assault should NOT deal +50 damage.
• Unsuspecting will NEVER kill a full health target in 1 hit, no matter the circumstances.
• Assassin's don't need an "oh shit" button.

Your only valid remaining opinion is that black lotus strike was fine, which I don't agree with, but that doesn't matter, because the change you're suggesting instead of a revert is outrageously overpowered.

It's obvious that you've never played monk in pvp, and I would bet you exclusively play assassin. I have a task for you: Monk against some teams with assassin frontliners, then tell me what you think about them. ~Shard 02:31, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Let me first direct you to this article, Ad Hominem

Secondly, invalidating my opinions because you view them as "wrong on so many levels" isn't a rational reason to disregard them. Sure, the Assassin should have been built differently, but in its current state and with the realization that Shadow Stepping does exist, my points are very valid, whether or not you are going to argue against them.

• Assassins are underpowered.
• Shadow Stepping does exist and the changes I suggest will promote their use withing the Assassin Primary.
• Shattering Assault should deal +50 damage, if the non-elite Blades of Steel can deal +60 damage.

And to address your points:

• I never claimed that Unsuspecting will kill a full health target in 1 hit, I have only suggested that the only way an Assassin can solo kill effectively is by using that skill. Bars without it fall short in damage, by far, preventing an Assassin from being able to solo kill anyone with a self heal.

• Assassins in GvG, in order to be able to split, need a way to survive against Elementalists and Rangers collapsing on them. Therefore I suggested the implementation of an "Oh shit button" so that Assassins have a small chance of surviving a collapse. This was never necessary in the past, as the Assassin could generally kill both of these classes on split, given that the Ranger missed an interrupt or the Elementalist did not upkeep blind.

Having been very active in the early Hero Battle ladder, and some GvG experience on Monk, I had an understanding what it was like fighting an Assassin, while they were at their strongest, playing a Monk. Mistakes are unforgiving, however if you pay attention to the information which is available to you, it is simple to significantly deminish the effectiveness of an Assassin via pre-prots or hex removal. Granted, today's builds are different, the buffs to WoH, and the strength of Patient Spirit makes fighting against Assassins much easier than the past. Your task seems silly, when considering how it was more difficult in the past, but still manageable. IKenshinHimuraI 08:23, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Shattering Assault puts out INSANELY high amounts of pressure, +50 is like saying - Eviscerate should do +100 damage Talamare 21:44, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I know I said I wasn't going to go into them, but since you asked so nicely, I will enlighten you. You might also want to read the ad hominem article, because I did not use one.

PvP is about three things: Using skills right, coordination (knowing what both your allies and your enemies are doing), and positioning. When you take one of these out, it ruins the game. Shadow stepping does exactly this, it's the reason GvG has become such a joke. Want to gank the lord with 0 risk of being killed? Use Recall or AoD. Want to spike a ganker, then immediately spike something at the flag stand? No problem, just use shadow of haste or shadow walk. Teleporting was extremely powerful when it was limited to corpses (Consume Corpse), but now that you can do it at will, it's a complete joke.

As Tal said, if you want Shattering Assault to do +50 damage (which is actually +100 damage since it's an unblockable dual attack), you might as well make Decapitate cost 2 adrenaline and have no downside, because then they'd be equal in power.

Unsuspecting will NEVER kill a full health target in one hit. It's impossible unless you set it up (your target has no be wearing no armor and has to be using frenzy + heal sig), which never happens in reality. This one's not your opinion, it's just plain false.

Assassins don't need an "oh, shit!" button. Their targets do. Assassins are not monks, and they are not mesmers. They are frontliners. Their job is to do damage, not to become invincible when they get spiked.

Black Lotus Strike - Attacks should not be free. Offhand attacks not requiring a lead should not be free. Offhand attacks not requiring a lead and that do more damage than most other attack skills should not be free. If you didn't put "Gain 5 energy" on it, it would still be overpowered, as it was in the past. Assassins are (supposed to be) balanced around their chains, not around ignoring their chains.

You still haven't monked against assassins like I've asked you to. I'd like you to do one of two things (or both if you're up to it): read Auron's article about inexperience, it coherently describes why you don't know your changes are bad. Also, do some top-level pvp (this means use a balanced build in gvg). I'm not trying to put you down, I just want you to be better able to understand the game so you can make better suggestions in the future. ~Shard 22:26, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I was citing the ad hominem article because this "supposed" inexperience I have with this game has no effect on the validity of my arguements. I don't need to bring my history of playing the game in order to argue either way, but at the same time it is nothing to hide, unlike your own.

Your comments on Shadow Stepping is way off base, it seems as if you're playing another game than I am. None of the skills you listed are even viable in top level GvG, so I don't understand why you are bringing them up. Shadow Walk, Recall, Shadow Of Haste are all skills that would get you kicked out of any serious guild if you had those on your bar. AoD is unusable due to the aftercast preventing you from using it to combo. Even when all of those skills were at their prime, they were easily countered by enchantment removal, however they got a little out of hand and now they are fixed; removing the aftercast and making them Assassin only will not change this.

Decapitate at 2 adrenaline causing deep wound, crit and +50 damage equates to about 190 damage. Even if it was just used to make a point (which I'm still trying to figure out), it isn't a good way to do so. Shattering Assault at 10 energy and 4 second recharge is not overpowered. Shattering Assault at 5 energy and 8 second recharge would be no more overpowered than Blades of Steel. The change I am suggesting keeps the damage even smaller than the current Blades of Steel damage- I don't see you complaining about Blades of Steel. You must keep the numbers relative to the class you are speaking about, Assassin's inherently need large damage to compensate for low base damage and long recharges. Unless you plan on revamping all lead and offhand attacks to much larger damage numbers, dual attacks need to have large damage. I don't see how an elite dual attack should have significantly less damage than a non-elite.

Reading comprehension is key. You keep bringing up this point about Unsuspecting because you continuously misread what I have said. You're fighting nothing but your own stupidity on that one. I'll state it one more time, Unsuspecting's use in a combo WITH 5 OTHER SKILLS is the only way to solo a target that has a self heal. Otherwise that target's self heal will be too much for you to overcome with damage and require more than one run of your combo.

Assassins in GvG that are splitting, need an oh shit button in order to have any success if they are not going to be able to win against Eles and Rangers. Assassins ARE NOT FRONTLINE. They should never be in the frontline with the exception of the small duration they are unloading their combo and then they should run for their lives. They are similar to Rangers as a utility position with a bigger emphasis on Flag Runner harassment and splitting if used outside of a BYOB setting.

Black Lotus Strike is far from free as long as it has the Hex requirement.

I've done more top level GvG you. I've participated in top 50 guilds since the first ladder season onwards and have been playing on and off since the monthly ATs have started. I've usually played as core warrior or mesmer. I've monked but I'm not as good as I am at warrior. Point being, I understand this game. If my changes were made, you would see a larger emergence of split builds having Assassins in them and they would still not be the best option for build, but it would be a viable choice. Assassins would have much greater skill variety without breaking the game. IKenshinHimuraI 00:28, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

"I was citing the ad hominem article because this "supposed" inexperience I have with this game has no effect on the validity of my arguements."

Actually, it does. If you know little to nothing about pvp, you shouldn't be talking about pvp. It's that simple. Ad hominem is when I accuse you of something completely unrelated, as you have done to me in your most recent post.

"Your comments on Shadow Stepping is way off base, it seems as if you're playing another game than I am. None of the skills you listed are even viable in top level GvG"

That's because they have been destroyed by game updates. Before said updates, these skills were the ONLY THING ANYBODY EVER RAN. Why? Because of the exact reasons I just mentioned above. They let you ignore positioning.

"Even when all of those skills were at their prime, they were easily countered by enchantment removal"

I was unaware enchantment removals had radar range. Can you cite where you got this information please?

"Shattering Assault at 10 energy and 4 second recharge is not overpowered. Shattering Assault at 5 energy and 8 second recharge would be no more overpowered than Blades of Steel."

You're comparing numbers and completely ignoring every other aspect of the skill. Shattering Assault is unblockable and it removes TWO enchantments, blades of steel does neither of those things. You can't call them equal, you can't even compare the two.

"Unsuspecting's use in a combo WITH 5 OTHER SKILLS is the only way to solo a target that has a self heal."

If your other points aren't proof enough that you don't pvp at all, this one certainly makes it clear. To state that the only way to kill a target is with unsuspecting is the definition of ignorance. If you haven't noticed (which is the case), Palm Strike is the most popular assassin opening attack in the game right now, followed by Backbreaker. I've run Unsuspecting. It's good, but it's nowhere near as powerful as you think it is.

"Assassins in GvG that are splitting need an oh shit button in order to have any success if they are not going to be able to win against Eles and Rangers."

Why do assassins need to win against eles and rangers? So far, the only reason you've given me is "Because they do," which is not a valid reason. There is no reason an assassin should have split immunity.

"Assassins ARE NOT FRONTLINE."

Than monks don't heal people.

I'll be blunt. I have been a top pvper since the game was released, and I know what I'm talking about. You have not, and don't pretend like you have, because nobody who has 4 years of gvg experience is diluted enough to think that assassin splits need to be viable again. I've played with and against the best of the best to ever play this game, so I know how players better than me think, and I know how they play. Take my advice. Do not post stuff like this until you have done a lot of high-level pvp. ~Shard 03:29, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

"That's because they have been destroyed by game updates. Before said updates, these skills were the ONLY THING ANYBODY EVER RAN. Why? Because of the exact reasons I just mentioned above. They let you ignore positioning."

Teleports punished bad positioning by the enemy team, and rewarded good position on the user. This in no way ignores positioning, but makes it more complex when you must consider the cast range of players.

"I was unaware enchantment removals had radar range. Can you cite where you got this information please?"

I was unaware you could kill, or be useful in anyway, even with radar range teleports, without being in melee range at some point on an Assassin.

"You're comparing numbers and completely ignoring every other aspect of the skill. Shattering Assault is unblockable and it removes TWO enchantments, blades of steel does neither of those things. You can't call them equal, you can't even compare the two."

Gee, you're right. I can't compare the two. ONE IS AN ELITE, ONE IS A NON ELITE. ELITE > NON ELITE.

"If your other points aren't proof enough that you don't pvp at all, this one certainly makes it clear. To state that the only way to kill a target is with unsuspecting is the definition of ignorance. If you haven't noticed (which is the case), Palm Strike is the most popular assassin opening attack in the game right now, followed by Backbreaker. I've run Unsuspecting. It's good, but it's nowhere near as powerful as you think it is."

And this makes it clear you don't play an Assassin or know what you're talking about. You cut out the very important conditional statements I put on "only way to kill a target" and infer that I'm ignorant? lol; the lack of reading comprehension that you're showing is what I would call ignorance. Do the math on all the reasonable Assassin bars and you will find one and only one bar that has enough damage to solo. It averages 100 DPS over 5 seconds followed with Deep Wound; and due to the recharge of Unsuspecting and Fox Fangs, can have about 100 extra damage past that. It kills the Master of Damage in 5 seconds. 700 damage in 7 seconds. No bar, without Unsuspecting, can come close. Palm Strike is terrible, and Backbreaker isn't viable outside of RA/TA, which seems to be your home.

"Why do assassins need to win against eles and rangers? So far, the only reason you've given me is "Because they do," which is not a valid reason. There is no reason an assassin should have split immunity."

Don't invent reasons I haven't given you. I haven't stated a reason as to why, but now seems to be a good time. Monks should be the best healers, as that is what they were designed to do. Warriors should have the highest DPS, as that is what they are designed to do. It is my opinion, that because Assassins were designed to be the best at splitting and soloing, that their skills should enable them to do so. This is why they should be able to win against Eles and Rangers, that make mistakes on split. The fact, which is involved with this, is that Assassins are underpowered. It is something that all rational, unbiased people can agree upon as you can easily back this up with statistics. I am not calling for split immunity, check your claims.

"Than monks don't heal people."

Assassins are not frontline. Assassins fill a utility slot on a team in GvG, not a frontline replacement. Also its "Then" not "Than".

"I'll be blunt. I have been a top pvper since the game was released, and I know what I'm talking about. You have not, and don't pretend like you have, because nobody who has 4 years of gvg experience is diluted enough to think that assassin splits need to be viable again. I've played with and against the best of the best to ever play this game, so I know how players better than me think, and I know how they play. Take my advice. Do not post stuff like this until you have done a lot of high-level pvp."

I'll be blunt too. I have been a top pvper since the game was released, and I know what I'm talking about too. You can continue to make argumentative fallacies and imagine I've never PvP'd before instead of addressing the content of my suggestions all day long but I hold the opinion that splitting was the most fun I've ever had playing Guild Wars and I believe that it should be viable again. You can have your own opinion, I really don't care. But you cant comment on my PvP experience knowing nothing about me. Your "must have"'s are wrong. I've played with the best of the best to ever play this game, so I know how players better than me think, and I know how they play too. Take my advice, don't think everyone who doesn't hold the same opinions as you is a nobody. And I've already taken your advice, as I have done a lot of high-level pvp before posting this. IKenshinHimuraI 05:44, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Are you serious? Your arguments are so bad, contradictory, fallacious, and so biased than I honestly think you're trolling, but I can't figure out why. You lost every piece of this argument three posts ago, I explained why, and you still don't get it. I know you have not done serious pvp since the game came out. 4 years of being good never results in stupidity and ignorance. Please stop trolling, or if you are not trolling, at least have the sense to re-read everything I've said, then sleep on it before you post anything else.

I'm going to make up some new rules for you. These will help you in two ways. Firstly, they will teach you something about game balance in GW. Secondly, they will teach you how to construct arguments that aren't complete rubbish and will help you avoid looking foolish.

1. You are not allowed to be closed minded and ignorant about game balance until you read the following pages wholly:
   1. User:Auron/Inexperience
   2. User:Auron/Gimmicks and its subpage about Palm Strike and assassins.
   3. User:Lilondra/FoGB
   4. User:Shard/GWBalance
2. You are not allowed to pretend like your argument is valid after it has been soundly discredited. You may create a new argument, but I suggest you first read Wikipedia's article about logical fallacies, and also the one about logical validity.
3. Lastly, do not play the "I have more pvp experience than you" card against me. You will lose. I promise. ~Shard 06:18, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

that whole page is a dramatic fail. soooooooo bad. --adrin 06:34, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Go to college and take a class on Symbolic Logic. You'll learn something.

Next, please quote every instance of "Your arguments are so contradictory, fallacious." There is a difference between a disagreement and being wrong, you seem to have confused the two.

None of the articles you have linked shows the proper way to construct an argument, nor how to debunk an argument.

I've played serious PvP since the game has come out, and I have had more top experience than you. So let me set up a bunch of rules for you to follow as well:

• Do not say that someone's arguments are invalid because you disagree with them.
• Do not say that someone's arguments are invalid without proving, with evidence, how they are invalid.
• Do not use Appeals of Authority. You are no more an Authority on this shit than I am.
• Do not comment on anything on this page without fully reading it three times.
• Do not misconstrue my arguments into meanings to suit you.
• Do not talk about the person who gave the argument, that is irrelevant. If a player who never GvGs actually has a good idea, the fact that that person has not GvG'd does not disqualify the idea itself. Although this isn't the case, it makes your attack on my experience irrelevant.

I think that about covers it. IKenshinHimuraI 09:57, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

The above argument, in concise expanded tree form

This is for people who want to skip the tl;dr.
"Shard's quotes in olive", "Kenshin's quotes in teal" ~Shard 07:53, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

"Black Lotus Strike was nerfed because it was an offhand attack with a lax requirement."

"No, it was nerfed because of its combo with Blades of Steel. The skill itself was fine."

"I'll agree with that, but your change is way more powerful than the original version."

"BLS is far from overpowered because it requires a hex." <-Doesn't take mathematics into account.

What it should be:

"Black Lotus Strike was nerfed because it was an offhand attack with a lax requirement."

"No, it was nerfed because of its combo with Blades of Steel. The skill itself was fine."

"I'll agree with that, but your change is way more powerful than the original version."

"BLS is far from overpowered because it requires a hex. The energy gain and damage is less than the original version"

IKenshinHimuraI 22:06, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

"Unsuspecting is fine."

"Unsuspecting is too powerful because it lets you "insta-kill" things." <-False

"Unsuspecting Strike will NEVER "insta-kill" anything. This is a demonstrable fact."

"You're stupid. The only way an assassin can kill something is with US" <-False

"No, it's not. This is a demonstrable fact."

"You've never played assassin and don't know what you're talking about." <-False.

What it should be:

"Unsuspecting is fine."

"Unsuspecting is a little too powerful because it lets you "insta-kill" things, with 5 other skills." <-True

"Unsuspecting Strike will NEVER "insta-kill" anything. This is a demonstrable fact."

"You're stupid. I said with 5 other skills. If you do math its apparent."

"No, it's not. This is a demonstrable fact." <-False.

"You don't know what you're talking about. If you do the math, Unsuspecting Strike allows for bars with 100DPS over 5 seconds." <-True. More than any other bar that does not have Unsuspecting Strike.

IKenshinHimuraI 22:06, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

"Shattering assault should do +50 damage instead of just 50."

"Everyone: lol no. That would easily make it the most powerful attack skill in the game"

"But +50 damage would make it equal to blades of steel"

"No, because blades of steel doesn't remove 2 enchantments and isn't unblockable."

"It's ok for it to be good because it's elite." <-Doesn't take mathematics into account.

What it should be:

"Shattering assault should do +50 damage instead of just 50."

"Everyone: lol no. That would easily make it the most powerful attack skill in the game"

"+50 damage would make close to blades of steel in terms of damage. The "elite" status justifies its other effects."

"No, because blades of steel doesn't remove 2 enchantments and isn't unblockable."

"Recharge is 8 seconds. If testing shows that is still too powerful, make it 12." <-Takes mathematics into account.

IKenshinHimuraI 22:06, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

"Shadow stepping is broken and shouldn't exist"

"In order for them to split effectively, they need it"

"Shadow stepping has ALWAYS caused problems in the past. It's a broken mechanic and should not exist."

"Shadow stepping is not viable in gvg." <-False

"That's because they used to be as powerful as your suggestions, and even Anet knew they were too good."

"Teleports punish bad positioning by the enemy team and reward good position on the user. They do not ignore positioning" <-False, false, and false.

"Even when those shadow steps were in the game, they were easily countered by enchantment removal"

"Enchantment removals don't have radar range. Shadow steps do."

"Assassins are melee range." <-Irrelevant to the discussion.

What it should be:

"Shadow stepping is broken and shouldn't exist"

"It does exist. Removing the aftercast and making them Assassin Only will not make them broken."

"Shadow stepping has ALWAYS caused problems in the past. It's a broken mechanic and should not exist."

"Those skills were nerfed. Removing the Aftercast will not make them even close to as powerful as they were before."

"That's because they used to be as powerful as your suggestions, and even Anet knew they were too good." <-False. Aftercast will not make a huge difference.

"Teleports punish bad positioning by the enemy team and reward good position on the user. They do not ignore positioning" <-Encourages enemy team to stay in range of monks.

"Even when those shadow steps were in the game, they were easily countered by enchantment removal"

"Enchantment removals don't have radar range. Shadow steps do."

"They need to be in the range of your Enchantment removal to accomplish anything."

IKenshinHimuraI 22:06, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

"Assassins need an oh shit button so they can survive splits."

"No they don't"

"Assassins need to survive against rangers and eles, professions designed to counter splits." <-Where did I say rangers and eles were designed to counter splits? Exactly, I didn't IKenshinHimuraI 22:06, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

"They're frontliners, not a split class."

"Assassins are not frontliners. They are all utility with big damage, and they only frontline when they are attacking."

"Assassins are frontliners. This is demonstrable, aside from being obvious. Also, why does a frontline class need to be immune to splits?"

"Because assassins were designed to be the best at splitting and soloing. All unbiased people agree that assassins are underpowered." <- False, and appeal to crowd

What it should be:

"Assassins need an oh shit button so they can survive splits, if they won't be able to kill Ele's and Rangers."

"No they don't"

"Assassins should be supreme on splits, they were designed to do so."

"They're frontliners, not a split class."

"Assassins are not frontliners. They fill the utility slot of a ranger in a basic GvG build, never as a frontline replacement."

"Assassins are frontliners. This is demonstrable, aside from being obvious. Also, why does a frontline class need to be immune to splits?"

"They still aren't frontliners. They can be built to do so (and fail) but they aren't meant to do so. They won't be immune to splits with my suggested changes. Discuss the skills I'm changing, not your imagination."

"Because the number of Assassins in recent Monthly Automated Tournaments are nonexistent, Assassins are underpowered." <-Factual data to support a claim. That is an argument.

IKenshinHimuraI 22:06, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

The thing I like most about you shard, its your dedication (just a hint of sarcasm, but not complete sarcasm)Talamare 08:50, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I like how you change my arguments. It isn't that hard to comprehend English, kids. IKenshinHimuraI 09:39, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Kenshin I dont think youre allowed to change what he writes, I mean you could have probably put your comment beside it, but to fully change I think its against a wiki rule Talamare 09:59, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

If hes going to quote my arguments, he should be obligated to get them right IKenshinHimuraI 10:07, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Do you work for Anet? You seem pretty dedicated to fuck up assassins even more. King Neoterikos 10:16, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

"If hes going to quote my arguments, he should be obligated to get them right " probably, but you even edited his personal side comments... Talamare 10:18, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

They wouldn't make sense if I changed the arguments to what they actually are, he generalized them so he could write "false" everywhere. IKenshinHimuraI 19:57, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

No, I generalized them so even you can see how bad your points are.

No, you generalized them, and changed them to make me look like I'm saying something that I am now. Allow me to give examples:

I wrote: "Shadow Walk, Recall, Shadow Of Haste are all skills that would get you kicked out of any serious guild if you had those on your bar. AoD is unusable due to the aftercast preventing you from using it to combo."

You think I wrote: "Shadow stepping is not viable in gvg." and point out that it is false. That does not come close to what I have said. I can show where nearly every argument you've "quoted" of mine, is a completely misrepresented viewpoint to your benefit. You have invalidated nothing. IKenshinHimuraI 21:22, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Here's where we stand right now. Anyone can come onto this page, and if they care to read everything so far, they will tell you that I have invalidated every single one of your points, and since then, the only things you've said or done are vandalizing my posts, ignoring the whole argument by basically copying what I told you to do, calling me ignorant, and by saying I fail at logic, a statement you don't have the authority to say after losing every fraction of your argument. If you had any chance of winning this debate, you would stick to the points, but you've used the not-so-surprising desperation tactics instead. Stop being closed-minded and realize that you have lost every point you were trying to make. Either come up with new reasons why your changes are good, or admit that they're terrible. Also, vandalism and completely ignoring what other people say are probably the two worst things to do when you want to look smart. ~Shard 20:01, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

One more thing. When I say something is demonstrable, that means it is a quantifiable fact, and you cannot counter a fact, so please stop trying to do so. ~Shard 20:09, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Lets see, you think I'm not sticking to the points? In your very first post you go off the points and try to attack me, "It's obvious that you've never played monk in pvp, and I would bet you exclusively play assassin."

I've stuck to the points as much as possible but when all you do is say "YOUR SUGGESTION DUMB" or "I'VE INVALIDATED YOUR ARGUMENT" its hard to have any discussion on my suggestions with your ego taking part. IKenshinHimuraI 21:22, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I have invalidated your points, and that's not my opinion, that's just what I've done. You know, it's a fact, because anybody can read this page and verify that I've done so. This is different than vandalizing someone's posts and making unfounded claims that your opinions are true. I'm saddened that you don't understand the difference and are unwilling to have a civil discussion, and of course, the side effect of this is that someone at arenanet might be shallow enough to consider this page a good suggestion. I hope they see this page so they can see that you haven't spent more than 10 seconds analyzing your own changes. Claiming that you have stuck to the point after ending your argument with "You spelled "then" wrong" and "All unbiased people agree that assassins are underpowered" is beyond foolish. The level of ignorance and red herrings in your arguments blow my mind - I've never seen anyone argue so badly. It's one thing to be wrong, but it's a completely worse thing to be wrong and not be willing to learn or improve from it. You're the worst kind of debater - one who is wrong, doesn't know why they're wrong, and isn't willing to learn why they're wrong. ~Shard 21:37, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I've never known someone to be so delusional before. Anyone can read this page and verify you have the reading comprehension of a 6th grader. "All unbiased people agree that assassins are underpowered" statement can be verified by the statistics of the number of Primary Assassins used in recent monthly automated tournaments in GvG. There is no denying that fact. Infact, "you cannot counter a fact". If you want to start to discuss how a skill change is unreasonable, the reasonable way to do it is give an example of a skill bar with that skill in it and showing how it would be overpowered. You have not discussed the skills at all, only citing how Assassins were at one point overpowered and therefore should never be touched again. That logic is simply wrong. You aren't willing to reread anything I've wrote and insist that you're right because you still can't get my arguments straight. Of course they're ridiculous when you invent my arguments instead of going off what I wrote. IKenshinHimuraI 21:45, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

What!? Your argument is "All unbiased people agree assassins are underpowered because there are statistics for their use in the last AT." There are many problems with that statement alone.

1. Assassin usage, whether high or low, doesn't have anything to do with unbiased people.
2. You have not cited evidence, you have just stated a completely irrelevant fact "Statistics of assassin usage exist." Which statistic are you speaking of?
3. GvG is not the only place where you can use skills. It is also not the only place where you can use assassins.
4. Assassins being underpowered, even if true, has nothing to do with their skills being underpowered.
5. Just because you call something a fact doesn't make it one.

You have no understanding of game balance at all, no understanding of logic past the fact that it exists, and you don't have the slightest hint of common sense. You have no authority to post anything on any page regarding pvp or regarding skill changes. I strongly urge you to read everything I've linked to. Please stop being so arrogant. I've humored you lightyears more than I've had to, and if you want to continue looking like an idiot, that's your call and I want nothing to do with it. I'm not going to let you waste my time. Make a sound argument with valid, relevant points or don't post at all. ~Shard 22:03, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I'll address your points in order:

1. Assassin usage has to deal with their status of being underpowered. Unbiased people will be able to agree that they are underpowered by looking at the statistics.
2. Heres the evidence: No team on Obs mode won with a Primary Assassin in their build in the MAT.
3. Read the article you posted telling me to read. Ironic. "Balance should be along the lines of GvG, as its the highest level of PvP".
4. Assassins being underpowered is a product of having their skills underpowered, amongst few other factors. There is a very strong association between the two.
5. Just because you claim you invalidated any of my arguments doesn't actually mean its a fact either.

Pretty much everything you said after these points should be directed more towards yourself than me. I'm yet to see "argument with valid, relevant points" or any evidence from you at all. Take your own advice: don't post at all. IKenshinHimuraI 22:18, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

"All unbiased people agree assassins are underpowered"

False. And, after reading all of the above, I can say that Shard is right (at least more right). -~=Sparky (talk) 22:12, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Read what I have added above. Its easy to show that because Assassins are not used in the MAT, they are underpowered. You would therefore have to be biased to think otherwise, given that the premise is true. IKenshinHimuraI 22:18, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh, you're right. Shadow Form is underpowered because it isn't used in the automated tournaments. Let's buff Shadow Form! -~=Sparky (talk) 22:40, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

It is underpowered. I suggested a change for it if you actually read the suggestion page instead of just repeating what everyone else says. IKenshinHimuraI 22:54, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

My goodness

The retardation on this page is killing me. Shard and adrin, please ignore idiots. It's painful to watch you guys reason out with someone with less intelligence than my dinner. Pika Fan 22:14, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I have given him one last chance to make a sound argument. If he can't construct his own thoughts, I'm not going to bother anymore. ~Shard 22:21, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. :/ Pika Fan 22:22, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I've never seen someone as self involved in their ego before than Shard. It's fun arguing with someone less intelligent than my dinner that is never wrong and makes things up on the spot. Allow me to repeat this again: If you want to start to discuss how a skill change is unreasonable, the reasonable way to do it is give an example of a skill bar with that skill in it and showing how it would be overpowered. IKenshinHimuraI 22:24, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Bringing my ego into this isn't an argument. If you can't follow simple instructions, how can you ever expect to convince other people of your ideas? The burden of proof is on the claimant, that means YOU have to prove your ideas are good, other people shouldn't have to disprove them or to make up bars where they're OP (though you've made it very easy to do so). Don't post until you can make a real argument about the skills instead of about me. If it isn't a clue enough, nobody agrees with your changes yet. ~Shard 22:34, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I never said your ego was an argument, you did. Just like how you made things up about everything else I've said. My suggestions are my suggestions, if you are going to say that a certain skill suggestion is a bad idea, it your obligation to qualify why that is, hopefully using examples of how the skill can be abusive. The clearest way to do so is give an example bar, showing how the bar becomes overpowered when used with other skills. There are people who agree with my changes, citing that everyone on the discussion disagrees would be a flawed survey of everyone's opinion as those who disagree are more inclined to post. IKenshinHimuraI 22:39, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Dear Mr IKenshinHimuraI, please stop spewing rubbish. Thanks. Come back when you have an understanding of "balance". Protip: If you had a skill that easily does 200 damage and ignores all prots, it is NOT balanced. Pika Fan 22:42, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Dear Mr Nobody. 100. Not 200. Thanks. IKenshinHimuraI 22:53, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Dear Mr Kenshin, I have asked you multiple times to construct an argument. Are you incapable of this? If you can't defend your suggestions, it shows that even you do not believe in them. Delete this page unless you have something reasonable to say. Otherwise, this is the last post I'll make here. ~Shard 22:45, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Are you incapable of making an argument? I can defend my suggestions against arguments, but theres nothing to defend against other than you citing your opinion that they are absurd without any evidence showing this. Come back with an argument and I'll follow it with an argument of my own. IKenshinHimuraI 22:53, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

No evidence showing this, apart from repeatedly pointing out the 4, +100 damage, unblockable, and removing 2 enchantments attack is overpowered. None at all. -~=Sparky (talk) 23:00, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Wow, it does look like that was Shard's last post on this page, after all. Facts > Opinion, hence Shard > you. Get over it. You are wrong because your suggestions are terrible and imbalanced, for several reasons. Don't ask me to post them, just reread the page. King Neoterikos 23:04, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Shard never spoke a single fact. Nor did he even catch the original argument as the first sentence on the page of the suggestions wondering where my argument for these changes are. If you can't read, don't argue. IKenshinHimuraI 02:35, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

You wouldn't know a fact if one hit you in the face. How do I know this? I've hit you in the face with facts, and you're still blind. Here are the facts I've already given:

• Shadow stepping ignores positioning. That's actually the definition of teleporting.
• Unsuspecting is NOT the only way to kill something with a self heal. Example: Every build that doesn't use US.
• Recall/AoD/SM ganks CANNOT be countered.
• In a game where positioning means everything, anything that bypasses positioning breaks the game.
• You are incapable of knowing when you've lost an argument. Example: This entire page.
• You have done little to no high end gvg. Example: You think shadow stepping doesn't break gvg.
• You don't know what a fact is, or you're just arrogant. Example: Your last 5 or 6 posts.
• You fail at sticking to issues. Example: After losing your argument, you copy+paste what I said almost verbatum instead of defending yourself or making a new one.

I'll spell it out for you. You. Are. Wrong. Find reality, because you're not in it. ~Shard 03:38, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

These are facts? They seem like misunderstands on your part as you don't understand this game you're a "master" of. Addressed in the order you listed them...

• Qualifying positioning depends on your team, the enemy team and yourself. You over generalize everything, and positioning is not something that can be discussed as rigidly as you would like. Shadow Steps can make the positioning of a certain player "bad" by allowing you to spike them that wouldn't otherwise be possible without Shadow Steps. This isn't at "ignoring" as if positioning doesn't at all matter. Increasing the range that one player can threaten another is definitely powerful, but in no way "ignores" positioning, only changes how it is perceived.
• Unsuspecting is the only way to kill something with a self heal with one combo in under 6 seconds. Everything else is sub par to that and usually allows the character to use their self heal. This bar does not.
• Recall/AoD/SM ganks can be countered. The fact that you think something can not be countered makes it painfully obvious that you don't know anything about Guild Wars, or have never played in top tier GvG. The fact that you think this is a fact is a sign of stupidity.
• "In a game where positioning means everything, anything that bypasses positioning breaks the game." This is a fact? Really? Heart of Shadow must break the game if this is a fact. I see everyone running Heart of Shadow because it breaks the game. I laugh every time you think things like these are facts.
• You are incapable of making an argument. You are incapable of distinguishing facts from opinions and misunderstandings on your part. Where do you get all these facts from?
• GvG experience has little to do with opinions. You have no understanding of the world around you if you think I must think something because of that. I've done more high end GvG than you, so I don't know why you keep bringing this up.
• "You don't know what a fact is, or you're just arrogant."How is that a fact at all? You're saying these were all facts and you post an opinion? /facepalm
• I hate to be blunt but, NO U. This entire time you have never stuck to addressing the skill suggestions themselves or going to show how they are as absurd as you claim. You act like removing the aftercast on all teleports will bring back the Recall era, instead of actually addressing any of the suggestions.

Allow me to spell it out to you, ADDRESS. THE. TOPIC. IKenshinHimuraI 09:51, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

"Unsuspecting is the only way to kill something with a self heal with one combo in under 6 seconds. " do you really believe that, honestly? deep in your heart?... I really dont want to get as dedicated to this post as shard is... but seriously man... this one is simple... You cannot honestly believe this one is true... that the ONLY way for a sin to kill in 6 seconds or less is thru unsuspecting Talamare 12:51, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Read below, look at the link with the Master of Damage specs on the bar I posted. You can not get anywhere close to those numbers without running Unsuspecting and have a reasonable bar. If you don't agree, give me an example of a bar that can do better. IKenshinHimuraI 19:22, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Man, this feedback section was totally worth it. It's like PvX all over again, with folks trying to balance the game and coming up with ridiculous suggestions then asking you to tell them why 5e, 100 damage, unblockable, enchant-stripping dual attacks are imba. -Auron 13:15, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

You forgot the 12 recharge in there. Big difference. A +100 damage, unblockable, enchant-stripping dual attack with a 120 second recharge is not overpowered at all. Theres middle ground in there somewhere. What would you suggest? IKenshinHimuraI 19:24, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Learning to play. -Auron 04:36, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Theres a difference between knowing how to play and game balance. You have an understanding of neither. IKenshinHimuraI 06:08, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Please, shut the hell up

You have been proven wrong on every point you have made on this page, and not by me but by everybody. I stuck to the argument until it was demolished, at which point there was no argument to stick to, which is why I asked you to make one (you still haven't). The only things you are capable of posting are "You don't know what a fact is" and basically copy+pasting anything I write, the same behavior a 6-year-old makes when they're having a tissy fit.
You have changed one point in your argument 3 times. It went form "US is the only way to kill something" to "US is the only way to kill something with a self heal" to "US is the only way for an assassin to kill something with a self heal" to "US is the only way for an assassin to kill something with a self heal in 6 seconds." Skill balance is not a religion, you don't change the story whenever you've proven wrong. Just give up and either change your suggestion or find a new way to defend it.
If you are still diluted enough to believe your argument is anywhere in the same universe as valid, I want you to list all the points you think have not been addressed, and I will address them. No, copy+pasting this post won't have anything to do with your skill changes or with the argument. I know you want to be like me, but that will never happen. ~Shard 01:44, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Umm i don't know about you but I read through everything he said and he did mention that US is the only way for an Assassin to kill something with a self heal the first time. Thats obviously what he meant, you just sound like you're mad. You've attacked him from the beginning looking like a jackass while you do it Crazii 02:18, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Use your regular account name please, don't make sock accounts to pretend people agree with you. ~Shard 02:46, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

lol? Crazii 02:56, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

A recently created account whos only activity has been this page... that gives it about a 90% chance that its you IKenshinHimuraI Talamare 03:04, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Consider that this is one of the longest talk pages in the feedback space - a place anons have no incentive to troll. This puts it up at 99%. ~Shard 03:05, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

At least Talamare has the guts to talk to him/herself when no one else agrees with his/her terrible suggestions; man up tbh. Pika Fan 03:29, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Geez talk about a low blow Talamare 03:59, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Shard still refusing to actually talk about any of the suggestions? Personal attacks in a new section now? Laughable. Do you know what context is? Shit, next thing you know you're going to think I'm talking about Diablo 2 Assassins. Let me point out for you a few of the times you make it apparent that you don't actually read:

1. The entire "The above argument, in concise expanded tree form". Couldn't get my arguments right.
2. I said, "Unsuspecting is too powerful in my opinion as the ability to do such high damage under any circumstance creates for Assassins the ability to "insta-kill" people." and "I have only suggested that the only way an Assassin can solo kill effectively is by using that skill. Bars without it fall short in damage, by far, preventing an Assassin from being able to solo kill anyone with a self heal." and you think I said "It went form "US is the only way to kill something" to "US is the only way to kill something with a self heal""<--Clearly missing that we're talking about Assassins. In the first instance of the word Unsuspecting Strike I made it clear I was talking about Assassins. It could have been worded better, I admit, but by "ability to insta-kill people" I meant it made it possible for Assassins to kill without a target standing up long enough to use a spell. It isn't that far of a leap.
3. "But...the bar Kenshin posted doesn't have Unsuspecting Strike. How does it kill things?" This is just astounding how incapable of reading you are. I even made it bold, "This bar, if ran now would not kill anything.". Have you been playing this game as long as you say you have? Missed the whole Nightfall thing?

If this didn't make it apparent that you're a rambling idiot, then please cite for me every place you have actually talked specifically about any of my suggested skill changes before posting again. IKenshinHimuraI 05:32, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I've asked you to make new arguments, and you have failed to do so.

I've asked you to list every point I haven't addressed in the other argument and you have failed to do so. One can only assume you have no argument, and there is no basis for any of these changes to be made. Thanks for admitting I'm right. Take care now. Oh, and delete this terrible page. All you have to do is copy this (you're proficient at this at least) onto your page:

{{delete|User Request - Shard has laid waste to every idea on my page and has put me in intellectual checkmate.|speedy}}

~Shard 05:53, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

The initial argument for these changes is on the front page of the argument. You must have skipped over it. You must have skipped over it when I discussed why these changes should be made, multiple times in this read. Why are you here if you are not willing to read? Also, let me repeat myself. If this didn't make it apparent that you're a rambling idiot, then please cite for me every place you have actually talked specifically about any of my suggested skill changes before posting again. You still haven't read anything on this page or the suggestion page. I suppose you are wrong.IKenshinHimuraI 06:03, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

You're asking the person who created and won the argument days ago if he's read it yet, and you're saying I can't read? That delete tag goes on the very top of the page BTW. ~Shard 06:10, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Why are you still posting when you can't manage simple things like reading? You'd know you've accomplished nothing but made a fool of yourself if you could read. You haven't discussed my suggestions so I don't know how you are saying you won any argument other than the [fictitious argument] you had with yourself, which had nothing to do with my suggestions. You still managed to lose it when I corrected it. You had no other recourse to it than changing the subject because you knew you were wrong. Constant personal attacks, no content. GTFO when you say you are leaving. IKenshinHimuraI 06:22, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what your deal is. I've already countered everything you've said, and 100% of the other people on this page can (and many have) verified it. You lost the argument. Stop being in denial. You can get stuff done a lot faster if you stop being ignorant. You will get nowhere if you keep saying things like "I didnt lose anything" or "You can't read" when reality is on my side. Maybe you're a visual person. I'll draw it out for you.

<Reality>-------------------------------<Stoned>-----<Dreaming>-----<Delusional>-------<Twilight Zone>

↑Me ↑Everyone else...................................................................................................................................↑You

~Shard 06:39, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Why are you still posting? You're so caught up in your "delusions" you think you've accomplished something. You haven't. IKenshinHimuraI 06:51, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

sorry shard I vandalized your reply Talamare 06:46, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Hypocrisy is a good way to make you look even less credible (not that you looked credible in the first place, or anything), and accusing Shard of personal attacks then making several yourself (for example: "rambling idiot") just shows you don't really think before posting (hmmm, that sounds familiar...). King Neoterikos 06:54, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not accusing. I'm stating facts. Read the page, it is all he has done. I've only played in his little game as its entertaining to watch this kid think that hes accomplishing something, when he won't read or stick to discussing any of my suggestions. IKenshinHimuraI 07:05, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Ya'll, quit bitching. Shard, you aren't going to teach him how to not suck. He obviously doesn't want to learn. At that point you just sort of have to let the suggestions fail. Both of you stop spamming RC with this crap. -Auron 07:16, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

This isn't a place to teach someone how not to suck. If you want to address how good someone is at a game, it might be better to do so in game, not in a suggestion's talk page. This is a place to discuss suggestions, and he clearly does not wish to do so. I can't imagine why he has that notice on his userpage. IKenshinHimuraI 07:32, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Discussing specific balance changes requires both parties have a minimum level of skill and understanding of the game, otherwise everything in this article gets in the way of actual balance suggestions. Anyway, the reasoning behind the bitching is moot. This page is already too big for a complete lack of actual discussion from either side. -Auron 08:24, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Although I agree that inexperience will get in the way of actual discussion, the accusation is unfounded and is on the basis of disagreement. I'm seeing if I can get someone to clean it up in a fair manner for both sides. IKenshinHimuraI 08:34, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Archiving active sections that prove you wrong doesn't make you right

Just thought people should know. Should anyone wish to review why these suggestions are terrible, they can look into the archive. ~Shard 02:48, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Are you insecure? You are still not discussing any of the suggestions. Please stop posting until you learn to do so IKenshinHimuraI 03:15, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I have already discussed them, and all you have done since the beginning is whined about the criticism, without actually backing up any of your points past saying "that's not true but I don't have a reason why" and "you don't know how to read." I have asked you multiple times to explain why these changes should be made, and you have yet to defend any of the things on the first list I posted. Please pull your head out of your ass. If you would like to start fresh with a clean slate to pretend you weren't destroyed, say so and I will rip through your changes from the beginning. All you have to do is say "OK." ~Shard 03:32, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

-.- Holy crap, guys ~~000.00.00.00~~ 03:47, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I know, sometimes it's sad some people can't think outside themselves, so you have to walk them through their own problems. ~Shard 03:50, 23 September 2009 (UTC)