Feedback talk:User/Karasu/Machinima

Good suggestions all around provided there are some limits to the unlocked camera you are proposing. Otherwise, I can see an unlocked camera being used in a way that gives an in-game advantage that was not intended by the developers. The simplest being to peak around a corner that would normally block line-of-sight to scout out enemies that you would otherwise not be able to see, for example.

Though I like the idea of a live spectator mode, unfortunately it's too open to abuse for the very reason you mentioned. A player in the PvP round could use it to see what the opposing team is doing. The counter to that is any player in the round would be prevented from entering live spectator mode at the same time. Then of course the counter to the counter is having multiple accounts wherein one of your characters is in the round while another is in live spectator mode. Alternately, a friend who is not involved in the PvP battle could be in live spectator mode acting as a scout to recon the enemy team and then relaying this information to you. Too many ways for this suggestion to be abused to give an unfair advantage in PvP or WvW. Guild Wars 3 perhaps 00:58, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

I rewrote this feedback on TalkTyria.net if you're interested. Also the Live Spectator mode is quite important for eSports. Right now what happens is we use software to copy the monitor of the player in order to do live commentary. Since the players are playing in a controlled environment there is no chance for abuse here. Enabling this for online events is a lot more difficult and I hope someone will come up with a solution. For example having observers join in on invite before the match starts so you know who is watching or commenting with a delay. -- Karasu (talk) 01:09, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Again, too many options for abuse in live spectator mode. We can try to think of all the ways to outsmart potential cheaters and they would still find a way to use it to an unfair advantage. Without even thinking too hard about it, the simplest would be to have a friend call you on their cell phone and relay to you what they are seeing the opposing team doing in live spectator mode. So even after figuring out all of the potential abuses and their counters in-game, something as simple as a cell phone call defeats them all.

My basic approach to any suggested game mechanic is to approach it from the perspective of a cheater, hacker, etc. I start dissecting it, looking for ways to defeat the counters or otherwise take advantage of/abuse the game. Because my belief is that if something can be abused, someone out there will abuse it. So by taking this approach, it avoids creating mechanics that can be abused in the first place rather than creating a mechanic that gets exploited and then having to figure out ways to fix it after the fact (which usually doesn't work anyway).

The one thing that immediately comes to mind that might work for live spectator mode is a spectator must choose which team they wish to observe. They are then free to change their follow camera to any of the players on that team but can not switch to following the opposing team. Of course, that kind of defeats the purpose of being a live spectator since now you're limited to observing the match from only one team's perspective.

Alternately, spectators would be allowed to switch which team they want to observe, but with a cool-down period between switches; perhaps a minute, for example. Then they can watch the round from the perspective of one team, then switch to the other team; but unable to switch back to the first team for at least 1 minute. This way spectators can't switch rapidly back-and-forth between teams to act as recon. In either case, a spectator would not be able to view team, guild, or alliance chat during the round.

However, even these compromises wouldn't prevent abuse because it still allows a friend to scout out enemy positions for you by giving them the option to observe the opposing team. See...there's just no way to stop this sort of abuse. The moment you permit a 3rd party to observe the round live from the perspective of either team, you've created a situation that leaves itself open to abuse with no effective counters.

I don't mean to be a buzzkill; I really do like the idea of live spectator mode. I just don't see a way to effectively counter the potential abuse of such a mechanic. And when we're talking about eSports PvP tournaments where there may be real money or other rewards involved for the winning team, I can guarantee that it will abused.

Think of a real world football game. If someone hacked into the radio frequency being used by the coach and assistant coaches on their headsets, they could figure out what the opposing team is up to. That's why the plays are coded and the codes are frequently changed and highly guarded secrets. So no one other than the coaches and players know what 34-52-72-HIKE! means except them. Otherwise, anyone could figure out what play the team was about to run by eavesdropping in on their conversations and then countering the play.

But football is a completely different mechanic than an online virtual combat. In the football game, it's more akin to a turn-based strategy game; the players line up in static position, the round commences, the players move to their assigned spots on the field, and the opposing team attempts to counter. Since the plays are coded, if you aren't able to guess or decipher what the team is going to do before the play commences, then all you can do it react to it and hope you get lucky enough to tackle or intercept.

By contrast, in a GW PvP battle it's real-time rather than turn-based. Therefore, if you can be given intelligence on what your opponent is doing at any moment in time, not only can you react but now you can also anticipate their moves and set up counters before the opposing team has even commenced their strategy and tactics. This would lead to an unfair advantage for the team privy to such intelligence. In football no such advantage can be gained because the coding of the plays prevents anyone from being able to know what the team is going to do before they do it. No such hiding/coding of a "play" can be done in a real-time situation. Guild Wars 3 perhaps 02:05, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the easiest way to abuse this advantage is by having a friend on VOIP who is speccing live. What if the live spectator mode would not be live, but with a few minutes delay? Since it's so fast-paced there's no way the situation you're seeing is relevant to the situation that's currently playing. That's one way to solve it for online tournaments. If you have all players in a room (I'm thinking about ESL here) and have them playing on official pc's it is possible to view what the player hears or sees. In that case live spectator mode is possible and preferred. So I kind of see this as a tool exclusively for offline tournaments. -- Karasu (talk) 08:20, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

A delayed broadcast might be the best way to deal with possible abuses. Back to the rest of your suggestion, as a big big fan of machinima I'd like to see most of these put into place. Especially the First person view. I really hope the lack of a first person view is only a Demo thing. However, a couple of your ideas, the ones that have to do with altering your environment, aren't and can't really be put into place. In part due to technical limitations, as well as lengthy development. So no Forgeworld for GW2.--Will Greyhawk 21:25, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

If the environmental changes are only local and have no effect on gameplay except visually, it would work. -- Karasu (talk) 09:01, 1 October 2011 (UTC)