Guild Wars Wiki talk:Formatting/Guilds

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Helping players find a guild

WHile guild pages are primarily for presentation, and that works well, one aspect of why this was seen as valuable was in helping recuiting guilds find new members. Or vice versa. And that doesn't seem to be wroking much at all. I've never heard of a player joining a guild that way. And as someone said, are people expected to open all guild pages in a catregory and read them? I'd add to that: even if they do, we don't list on of the more important t,pieces of info that players look for: what type of play that guild organises.

So I have a suggestion for an updated infobox, that would eventually let us list key info in a automated table (or many, if wanted). This would hopefully make it realitiscly possible for a user to find a guild using the info on this wiki. Sample versions of all relevant pages can be found here.

Backsword

Couple of questions: 1) why isn't there an RA tab for the table? 2) Why don't you make a DPL table that actually calls your proposed version of the infobox. And for the record, I don't think we need to put the tabs on the infobox, but if we do, it should be hidden by default. --JonTheMon 16:54, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I have people asking to join my guild all the time because of out wiki page. So don't say it doesn't happen. Oh, and Jon, the reason RA isn't on his list is he doesn't feel the wiki should "endorse syncing" by even categorizing RA guilds as legitimate. -- Wyn talk 16:56, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Didn't say it never happens. I assumed it did. In your case, I'd expect it to be becuase prominent wikieditors advertise it on their userpagres, something not available for most guilds. Backsword 11:23, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

It can be set up like that. Current versions showcase this. However, this means not promting existing uilds to deal with it. Backsword 11:23, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

A very interesting idea. I'm a very new player, so the question of finding an appropriate guild is one on my mind. And I had wondered how I was going to wade through all of the pages....

That being said, is there any sense of whether this wiki (despite its integration with the game and its excellent documentation resources) is actually perceived by the wider user community as useful in that regard? For example, I have found from a random (and very small, unscientific) sample that the majority of guilds one runs into in the game at any given time do not have a page here at all (even – especially? – if they have an external website of their own) or, if they do, it is often not particularly actively updated.

None of this constitutes a counter argument (and certainly not to the technical aspect, which is well presented in the example) but does bring up the questions, "Do users want this sort of thing?"; "Is the average user likely to be able to find and use it?" (perhaps a main page link?); "Will enough guilds bother to maintain the information to make it a useful, pertinent tool?" All of that being said, I feel it would be useful to me personally and so presumably, by extension, to users like myself (both of them ;-) --DryHumour 18:22, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

To be honest, as much as I like the idea that Backsword is proposing (mostly because it looks neat), fansites are a much easier way to find guilds that are recruiting. I used the "recruiting guilds" forum over at Guru to find the guild that I'm in now. It seems to me that forums are much easier to present/disseminate this type of information, simply because it can be maintained much more readily. I think the threads there have a one or two week "lifespan", so you're pretty much guaranteed up-to-date information. Some of the wiki guild pages haven't been edited (beyond removal of tags) for a very long time. But, even if this DPL thing doesn't work due to technical limitations, I would be in favor of expanding the required information, so category drill-downs would work better. One other question, when you PUG with someone that's in a different guild, does that guild show up in your help menu (to get to their wiki page, if any)? I know I can access all of my alliance through it, but I've never paid attention to it after pugging with someone from a different guild. -- FreedomBound 22:57, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, the Categorical index is a much simpler search tool if you are looking for a guild. It allows you to look at the specific category of guild you wish to join. Obviously, it the page creators don't categorize their page properly, it won't work, however, the same can be said about adding additional variables to the infobox. As it is, many guilds do not complete the infobox we have, I don't see them doing any better with even more options. -- Wyn talk 23:05, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

The play style and language are only a very limited set of criterias when selecting a guild. It is far more interesting what kind of people are in the guild, how they play and a lot other details we will never be able to list on the wiki, especially not in some table form. Personal contact is much more important when finding a guild, as such the categories are a good start to get a basic direction, but you will never be able to make a good choice by only the information that is on the wiki.

As such I don't think we even need to have the trouble with creating the page editing all guild articles to display the correct data and maintaining the whole thing. poke | talk 16:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

You primarily seem to assume this would replace any existing tools. But of course it wouldn't, and if anyone prefers to use them, they would still exist. We don't have any power over a fan forum even if we wanted too.

About perception; perhaps that is well deserved? Being a resource for people who looked for a new guild was an intended effect of the guild: namespace, but it hasn't worked out too well. But perceptions can change if one remedies the underlying issue.

As for up to date, by necessity, the list exluds any older page. It would hit DPLs limits otherwise, and old info isn't desirable anyway. Backsword 11:33, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I think if plays tried to keep their guild updated as much as possible, with participating alliances putting their guilds out there, etc. It would help draw attention. For older pages, well, inform the guilds, going we need updates so you can be added to dpl. That way, you know if the guilds are active or not. It would help weasel out the inactives. ♥ Ariyen ♀ 09:33, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Backsword: I like the idea a lot. I am always getting asked by peeps about finding a guild. I personally don't like adding to the list of sites I follow, so having the information available on the wiki would be useful. There's been some substantive objections that have been raised; I think each can be mitigated:

• Guilds don't use the Guildspace as it is. While this is true, part of the reason might be that the Guildspace doesn't offer anything to most guilds, aside from a modest ego-boost. It's not useful as a recruiting tool (have to already know the name) nor as a homesite (since the in-game announcements for guilds can already direct people there). So, let's give folks incentives to keep their guildpage alive...and so they shall.
• There are already other sites available for this purpose. I don't think that's quite true. There are sites, but none as central as this one. This is the only place to which all players are directed by the game, by the ANet site, and by all other fansites.
• You will never be able to make a good choice by the info on the wiki alone. Of course not. The idea would be to provide some tools so that peeps could even find a guild or 10; it would be up to the guilds themselves to direct folks to their homesites or the relevant fansites that contain the relevant recruiting tools.
• It's hard to maintain the info. That's true, but it would still be the responsibility of the guild to take those steps. Again, there would have to be a reason for the guild to want to keep their site current; recruiting (which many guilds do full time) might be enough.

This conversation shows that there's interest in the idea, but worries about its application and practicality. I think we could discuss this in the abstract for years without coming to any conclusions. Instead, let's put together a proof-of-concept. For example: someone (e.g. Backsword) puts together a list of features, someone else puts together a hidden infobox. Then, we contact a couple of active wikians to update their own guild pages and get some other wikians to try to use the added tools to find guilds that are recruiting (or whatever search tools that we think might be useful). I'm game to help.   — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 07:50, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I've updated this to support Codex Arena. This would seem a good time to do this. Backsword 07:28, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I think the principle is a good one. However, I see one huge technical problem with the implementation. A prospective recruit cannot invite themselves into a Guild, an Officer or the GL needs to do that from within the game. They could leave a note on the talk page of the guild's page, but it might take a seriously long time to notice a request to join there. The user would be able to find out the guild name, and hope and wait for someone from that Guild to be online in the game as well.

It isn't something I would necessarily use, but I am not going to tell others not to do it just because of that. 42 - talk 06:40, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

The guild talk page is specifically NOT to be used for recruitment as stated in the guild page policy. That is precisely why we require contact information on all guild pages. -- Wyn talk 06:44, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Wyn: do I understand correctly that your guild maintains an article on GWW? And do y'all also have a separate website? Would you mind explaining how you make use of the GWW page? I'm trying to understand the advantage of maintaining both (my guild currently doesn't have an article). Thanks.   — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 08:10, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

No, we don't have a separate website or a forum. I don't see the point of one. Our wiki page is Guild:Gems Of Destiny. -- Wyn talk 08:35, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Cool. Thank you for the quick response.   — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 08:49, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

As has been pointed out, because I am so visible not only here, but also on Guru (using the same username) it is not difficult for people to find my userpage, and from there, my guild page. I get frequent contacts in game from people who say "I saw your wiki page, can you tell me more about your guild, and are you recruiting?" -- Wyn talk 08:58, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Was there any objections to this? (besides not worth the effort, since I would be the one provding that). Would like to get this dealt with. Backsword 07:13, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I honestly don't see the point. -- Wyn talk 07:52, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

After thinking about this, this idea seems like 1/2 of a conversation. In a forum you have active, current participation by both parties. Here, you might have to go through a dozen guild pages before finding one that isn't inactive, has the correct guild leader/officers, or is still recruiting, and the guild still might not be the right fit. Oh, and when finding a guild, sometimes the ones that aren't recruiting would make a good fit. --JonTheMon 13:46, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Sigh. I'll implement it at some point wehere I have the time and energy. But it's hard to entuastic about a wiki dominated by trolls. Backsword 17:04, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Implement it? I don't see consensus here..... -- Wyn talk 18:22, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Subpages

Hi, I'd like to know if it's allowed to create guild subpages to make "boxes" with templates, i.e. Guild:Limburgse Jagers/Infobox1 etc. Just like people do with tabs on userpages? Sjeng 09:24, 9 June 2011 (UTC)