Talk:Bar compression/Examples

Suggested format

I don't like the current format of the page: it's too cluttered and it seems unnecessarily difficult to parse out useful information. I'd like to propose the following (which I've illustrated in a sandbox):

• Use a table format, which would allow sorting.
• Use hidden {{anchor}} tags (or the equivalent) to allow efficient navigation.
• Replace {{skill icon}} with a larger icon and the skill names on the bottom (at least for the first column).

(Obviously, there are some technical issues to resolve before using this format, so the sandbox is setup to be proof-of-concept.) – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 17:43, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Even if we don't replace {{skill icon}}, I think a table format would still be easier to read. Using narrow bars (as in the sandbox above), a single table would probably work. Using the wide bars (the original format), we'd probably need to split into 1 table per profession. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 18:12, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Guidelines for inclusion

I'd like to suggest some guidelines for what should be included or excluded from the list of examples. Probably this is lol-duh for a lot of folks, but for others this will help prevent the inclusion of every possible (something that lists like this seem to attract).

Include Skills that meet these criteria should be included. Offers great compression and/or unparalleled value, e.g. YMLAD. Meta, specifically listed on multiple or oft-used PvX good/great builds, e.g. AotL for MMs

Exclude These are reasons to exclude a skill from the list. Lacks a compelling explanation of value. Niche skills.

Case-by-case These criteria are insufficient on their own for a skill to make the cut. Frequent use (the wiki attempts to promote best/better usage). Combines multiple functions (again, the value must be high)

– Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 18:28, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Strongest bar compression examples

• Primal Rage - IAS and IMS,
• Asuran Scan - Anti Blind/Miss/Block,
• Onslaught - IAS, IMS and Adrenaline,
• Pious Renewal - Quick recharge allows to replace all other teardowns.
• Palm strike - Quick access to assassin chains.
• Crippling Anguish - degen, anti-attack and anti movement.
• Unyielding Aura - instant rez and heal boosts.
• Melandru's Shot - cripple, bleeding and damage
• IAU - armor, anti cripple and anti kd

I don't think I'd bother mentioning any others. Keep it short. File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.jpg Chieftain Alex 23:30, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

What criteria are you using to decide whether a skill makes the list or not? Why not YMLAD (interrupt, snare, and condition)? Elemental Lord replaces an attunement and aura of restoration. Are you saying that (most) casters don't have any viable bar compression options?

The thing is: everyone has their favorites so articles like this tend to get bloated quickly, one pet-skill/use at a time. I'd like us to be able to articulate something that helps guide contributors to add stronger examples (or at least propose for discussion before adding to the article). – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 23:42, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

I had a few long winded rants on this topic, but then I realized my brain wasn't working right. Here is the gist of what I wanted to bring up:

1. I suggest having no more than half a dozen examples on the page - enough to get the idea across without risking clutter or bad advice.
2. Bar compression is a very big umbrella; I would estimate half the skills in the game can be considered to compress two or more skills into one (usually at some sort of sacrifice, such as potency or a secondary profession).
3. The current article doesn't discuss much other than what skills can be considered combinations of other skills. The reason some skills are great compression is because of things such as recharge, activation time, etc, in addition to allowing a second skill to be brought.
   • For example, YMLAD replaces an interrupt and a snare, allowing an extra skill to be brought. It also does so on 10r and instant cast, which is better than every other non-weapon interrupt (except the funny one).
   • Perhaps some comparisons would be in order?
4. I disagree with listing examples of team bar compression. If you really want to free up skill slots on your midline, you can put them on your frontline (via mtouch, etc); the only notables about the current examples is how ridiculously overpowered they are.
5. I also disagree with listing "uncompressed skills". If you list that skill x compresses skills y and z, it thereby follows that skills y and z are "uncompressed". A whole section to this seems unnecessary. (And we really have no reason to list the literally hundreds of variants on Power Attack, i.e. "you do <mechanic>".)

-- Armond Warblade 01:02, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm good with all/most of what Armond's suggestion (I always though of moving the long list of examples off the page as step 1 of a multi-phased cleanup effort). So I think the next steps are:

• Update the primary article to do a better job of explaining that good bar compression is more than just using a skill that combines 2+ effects (even if mostly, that would take one skill/effect).
• Limit the illustrative examples on the main article to two of the best. Limit the examples on this article to an arbitrary number, perhaps 7 or 12.
• On the main, provide (at most) 1-2 comparisons: a weak (uncompressed) bar vs a strong (compressed one) (it might be interesting to see if we can compare the skillbar of a Beyond foe with that of a classic GW foe of the same name).
• Remove anything else.

I also think it would be more useful to be profession-agnostic in the examples (if we have to categorize, it would be better to compare Damage/Support/Control or even front/mid/backline options). – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 16:16, 8 December 2011 (UTC)