User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Overpowered Skills/Assassin/SP bar discussion/Archive

SP sin bar fix suggestion

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Sorry if this isn't in the overpowered skill section, it's just that the discussion there split differently on every skill and the problem is that it's not one skill alone that you look at and that's overpowered, it's the bar as a whole and the bar synergy. The fact that Assassins can solo spike someone in 5s or so doesn't fit with the rest of the game as a whole and doesn't promote exciting or skill-rewarding gameplay either imo. When your full bar consists of clicking skill 1 to 8 in order (truly 1 to 8, with SP-Expose-Tiger Stance-BLS-Horns-BSS-BoS-Impale, with absolutely no skill that can be used out of the combo) every 20 sec, and that it can actually work too, there's very little player skill involved (in the end you have absolutely no control over if you'll manage the kill or not because your tools have 0 flexibility, the best you can do is pick your target and hope their team won't manage to stop you) and it gets repetitive and boring to play with or against.

So here's what i'd suggest to limit (and hopefully fix) the problem, and further problems of the same type, without destroying skills:

1) Reduce BLS and BSS damage to +1..13..17. While those aren't the main damage dealers of the build, the damage they do adds up, and mostly those skills would be very balanced with lower +damage (while if you lower the damage of dual attacks, they become obsolete). BLS is an incredible energy management tool, while BSS is a cheap skill that causes poison (and the damage would just be 4 points lower on BSS, not that big of a change). And mostly, both are straight offhand attacks, which is a huge advantage over other offhands requiring a lead and in skill bar compression. The offhand-dual-offhand-dual combos that can basically straight kill make all the lead-offhand-duals kinda pointless, and likely will continue to do so even with the interesting skills you're adding with GW:EN like Golden Fang Strike. The reduction of the +damage on both of them means that in the offhand-dual-offhand-dual combo, you'll lose enough damage to fail to straight kill, but it's not big enough so that they won't be useful for spike assist for example. In a team coordinated spike, losing 5-15 damage won't often be the determining factor in a kill. But on an SP bar, losing 20-25 damage in the spike can actually make a good difference, otherwise nobody would bother using Blades of Steel over Death Blossom. The skills also keep all their interest for the utility of reaching a dual attack straight, for example as a Moebius opener, or in conjunction with Shattering Assault, etc.

2) Increase Shadow Prison recharge to 25. This elite shadowsteps recharge is too short in the sense that it's basically just on a short enough recharge that you can afford to use it every single spike. Instead of having your shadowstep being a good utility that can allow you to hit a target that's difficult to reach or that wouldn't expect it, it becomes the cornerstone of your build and takes out any consideration for positioning, etc. If you have it to 25s recharge, an assassin wanting to play his bar optimally would then have to do 1 spike with SP, and 1 spike WITHOUT SP between. So every second spike would require positional awareness, etc. If you spike only 25s and don't do that, well the bar gets seriously weakened, but that's the player's failure. It would actually allow to make a real difference between good SP sins and bad SP sins : those that can make good use of the time between SP spikes, and those that can't.

I don't think any of those 2 changes would destroy the bar, or the skills. The SP sin bar would still be usable. You don't lose much damage overall, but just enough so that straight killing with it is harder and you might need team support on it a bit more. The recharge on SP isn't a big difference either, but it makes it less interesting to just wait and do nothing between 2 SP spikes when it becomes 25s recharge.

This would likely bring SP sins an option, but more in line in terms of viability with other sin bars (especially if some more utility/shutdown stuff in Deadly/Shadow Arts get buffed a bit, along with some lead/offhands) and the potential ones you can get with GW:EN skill. Because atm the SP bar is just a superior option in nearly all cases, and i don't see anything being added that will truly change that. It will add good, interesting options, but i don't see anything there that can truly compete with an SP sin in terms of killing efficiency and mostly ease of use. Playing a good sin without fully relying on shadowstepping is much harder, and requires much more player skill than when you can just stay out of range all fight and use a shadowstep every spike, then run away. Shadowsteps are nice as utility, as something you can use every 2-3 combos when you want to hit a target that's too deep to run to safely or that's kiting you, but when they become the basis of a build, it's rarely good and rarely a build that rewards any player skill. SP W/A in Eurospike were such a template too.

I hope some of this is considered, because SP has been a bar as dominating over Assassins as Melandru is dominating over Dervishes, and this has been going on for a very, very long time and while both classes have lots of very interesting skills, they are just unused because those bars are overpowered since the start of NF. Patccmoi 17:09, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Every discussion on each individual skill showed how the SP sin isn't overpowered, and assain's ARE meant to quickly spike and kill targets, yet now you've ran out of skills to bring up, so you make a new catagory. Please just accept when its shown how they are not overpowered. Whether or not playing an assassin is skillfull or not is questionable...but they do what they are meant to. Like i have said before, if you make it so assassin's cant solo spike quickly and efficiently, then there place in the game is lost, and you might as well remove them. They are an ASSASSIN! what more should they do than kill? --ChronicinabilitY 17:26, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I can see assassin requiring more skill in gw2. With z axis included, an assassin may have a lead skill in which he strikes then jumps upward off the foe. Then you only have a split second to launch your falling skill. It could easily be that if you launch the skill too or too late, you just burn the energy. (skills like falling spider and falling lotus could be changed to only work when you are higher than your foe and in the air or something.) idk. ‽-(eronth) I give up 17:38, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I didn't 'bring up' any skill personally, i didn't start any of those (or argued much in them) and what i saw in most of those discussions is how this particular skill isn't overpowered or people saying 'it can be stopped so it's fine', which doesn't really take anything in consideration. And i don't think that solo spike is a good game concept, not at all. Assassins should be able to kill someone that's alone efficiently, through a mix of high damage and possibly shutdowns (they do have a lot of those skills, they're just not needed atm). But solo-spiking in the middle of a fight over and over through a shadowstep is something quite different. And yes, i do think the bar as a whole needs a fix, and that's why i suggest this, which is overall small changes that would bring it more in line. You're free to disagree, but sorry if none of your arguments convinced me. And while they might or might not require more skill in GW2 (don't even know if they'll be in there), it's quite off-topic Patccmoi 17:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

This has actually been something I've been debating doing, and those are the same two options I've been thinking, I don't feel he's super overpowered or anything, but I feel like by nerfing this stuff it would change up Hero Battles feel, GvG, and some Random Area. It feels like a good time for some change up, I lean more towards nerfing BSS and BLS as I think recharge on SP wont change much other then how often they do their thing. My guess is I'll probably hit energy or recharge on these when I have a better idea I'll put it up here. ~Izzy @-'---- 18:45, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd seriously suggest watching the damage on BLS/BSS, even if it means removing the +damage altogether, rather than hit energy cost and recharge. The thing is, this would likely hurt them severly in other builds, while the +damage is only really crucial in the offhand-dual-offhand-dual spikes that aim at a straight kill. Changing the recharge on BLS/BSS would do absolutely nothing on SP sin setup (unless you raise it above 20 sec, which would honestly destroy the skills for any kind of setup) but it would hurt them seriously for any other setup that uses them on recharge because they don't rely on SP (and those setups aren't problematic at all, in fact they should be encouraged), while raising the energy cost would also likely hurt it more in other setups where you use utility in between than for SP sins that don't actually have any and just come full energy to spike every 20s (and with 32E-37E, and BLS in the middle, you'd have again to destroy the skills for other setups so that energy becomes limitating. Unless you raise the energy of SP, which would kinda prevent doing SP-Expose-IAS-BLS, or the energy for the same effect, but hitting the energy on BLS would hurt it far too much as emanagement. Hitting the energy on BSS would likely hurt the setup slightly, but you could still complete your combo fast enough and again it would hurt non-SP sins far more). I'd really go for an option that risks hurting other Assassin builds the least, and i think that energy cost/recharge aren't the best options for that. As for nerfing SP's recharge, yes it would only reduce how often they do their thing, but that's the point too. At some point, if you don't do it often enough, you have to find something to do in between or you're not worth the skill slot. At 20s, you don't really need to find something to do in between. At 25s, it would start to feel like you're useless to your team for a very long time if you're 8 skills are used in the same combo and you sit around in the meantime, and either you find something to do in between your combo, or you just change the bar altogether. It also gives more time to people to recuperate in a split, because when you fight 2 SP sins in split, often you'll survive the first wave, but you don't have time to fully regen before the second hits, and it also makes it really hard to run from them because of SP catching up and snaring you. With 5 more sec, you could heal a little more and run a little further. And nerfing SP is definitely one of the things that will hurt other sin bars the least Patccmoi 19:26, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think 20 damage pulled off those skills is going to stop that spike, something about the rate in which you use those skills would have to be done. ~Izzy @-'---- 21:19, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The skills to hit are definitely Shadow Prison and Black Lotus Strike. Shadow Prison because it continues to be the combination shadowstep plus awesome snare hex that's the cornerstone of all the dual offhand builds; Black Lotus Strike because it's the fuel that lets you cast all of that crap pre-spike and still use a 5-skill combo on people. Hitting the recharge and hex length on Shadow Prison makes the most sense, while energy on Black Lotus Strike is a better target than anything else on that bar. -Ensign 19:51, 30 July 2007 (UTC)-

problem is, what else is left for the sin if the SP sin is no longer the killing machine it is today? Theres a reason why we dont see lead attack sins running around, theres a reason why the SP sin's predecessor was the AoD/shock Sin ganker. The most effective bars that allow sins to spike... to do so well in a skirmish is their ability to snare the target and skip their lead attack to reach the parts of their combos where the real dmg is located... the dual attacks. Nerfing SP will only take away the only viable assassin build there is. I do think a nerf is needed, and the nature of the power is where Ensign rightly puts it, SP and black lotus strike. But looking deeper at the class itself, i think there are more fundamental problems. And the issue is, unless sins have a viable way to skip their leads AND to snare their targets like they did with AoD/shock and like they do now with SP, they become quite ineffective in comparison to warriors and dervishes not only as frontline characters but in the area where they should shine brightest, in skirmishes. 87.194.81.41 20:15, 30 July 2007 (UTC)Lorekeeper

There is nothing that takes place of a sin really so when you nerf what he does, you still use him in the same places you used him before it is possible to nerf it out of play but I don't think this one build is the only thing keeping sins in play. ~Izzy @-'---- 21:19, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

You are right that nothing takes the place of the sin but SP is just about the only thing that fills that place well. No other combos are really lethal or unavoidable in the same way as sp and killing quickly is all that we've seen the assassin good for in pvp so far.--DVDA 21:29, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, 20 damage might not be enough to stop the spike, but i think it's enough to make it fail more often. The thing is, SP sins rely FULLY on that spike. If it doesn't kill straight, their DPS takes such a drastic drop afterwards that 20 damage might take them 2-4 seconds to get. And atm it's quite borderline, so i think it'd help. But that's also why i suggested a nerf to SP recharge along : because THAT limits how often they can use it, which is the point.

Nerfing BLS's recharge will never change anything for the SP sins bar because it already functions on a far bigger recharge. It will hurt other sin bars that do require its energy to function though, and that spike on 12s recharge (which is much more interesting for flagstand assassins). I think that nerfing the energy gain would be the best option, as it would hurt the looong chains like SP sins do that use skills 1 to 8 without hurting other builds as much. Nerfing the energy gained to something like 1..13..17, or 10..15..16 would take another few points of energy away from the combo but would still leave BLS as a strong emanagement skill. The 10E cost to BSS, while i didn't like the idea too much at start, i think would actually be fair. It will possibly hurt the bar (if nothing else, they'll need to use Zealous daggers instead of Vamp daggers, which is 20 damage gone. Or won't be able to cast Expose, which is another skill gone), and the skill is worth 10E overall. It would hurt other builds too, but it should be possible to manage for those while a nerf to BLS would seriously hurt everything else. If you nerf the energy gained from BLS and raise BSS to 10E, the bar as a whole would simply not have the energy to use all skills in orders and they'd have to make some choices, like dropping Expose, or the IAS, etc. which could be replaced by other utility to be used between the combos. Those 2 nerfs, along with SP being increased to 25s, would likely balance the bar quite well too.

And no, i don't think SP sins is the only thing keeping sins in play atm. Since the last update, we've been using Siphon Strength Assassin with the bar: Siphon Strength, Siphon Speed, BLS, BSS, Death Blossom, Impale, Shadow Walk, Dash and it's a REALLY nice mix of flagstand utility with the melee debuff + spammable snare and good recharge combo that can be split in 2 parts to spike assist, and split power. In split it's able to easily handle SP sins (reduces their combo to around 100-150 damage + DW total) and any kind of warriors while killing very fast itself. The nerf to BLS and BSS would hurt the bar, but again it should be manageable overall. A hit to BLS's recharge though would seriously hurt it, as it would hurt nearly every sin build that used it before EXCEPT SP sins. Note that a build like this could also function on a Lead-Offhand-Dual combo (since you have 3 dagger attack slots), but atm none is worth it at all. If that problem is fixed, the nerfs to BLS and BSS would hurt other bars possibly less as they could be subbed for something else. There's been many suggestions before of buffs to make to lead and offhands already existing (because while you're adding 2 nice ones in GW:EN, it wouldn't take big changes to make what's already there viable now), many should be considered. The main point imo is that lead and offhands requiring a lead shouldn't go past 4-5s recharge unless they have a VERY powerful utility (none really has one atm). There would be nothing wrong with raising the +damage on those skills either, because the chain still won't kill straight and a dagger offhand doing +20..52 isn't actually dealing more damage than a sword or axe attack with +10..42, which are fairly common and usually don't need any prerequisite like offhands do. Because the chain is more fragile, you need it to recharge faster in case something goes wrong, and since it can't straight kill, being able to chain it twice in a row in a fairly short delay could allow sins to still be able to kill using those instead of always having to rely on offhand-dual-offhand-dual. I hope you're considering buffs like this along with the nerfs coming to the SP sin bar. If you want specific suggestions, there's already a couple in the 'Underpowered skills' section Patccmoi 23:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Izzy Tweaks

Here is my current thoughts and ideas for the Assassin:

Assassin:

• Black Lotus Strike: 12r -> 18r
• Black Spider Strike: 5e -> 10e
• Deaths Charge: 45r -> 30r
• Dark Prison: 45r -> 30r
• Shadow Prison: 4..10s -> 1..10s

I'm know I'm overdoing it a bit on Black Lotus Strike, but a lot of people only spike on SP recharge anyway, and it mainly hurts the viability of it in Hero Battles. Thoughts? ~Izzy @-'---- 01:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Drop the energy gain on BLS, but don't touch the recharge. Make it so that SP sins can't just go expose-SP-bls - horns - bss - BoS back to back. That way they have to choose between using expose or SP as their combo opener. --Symbol 02:50, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

The problem with Black Lotus Strike was the net spike energy gain. This change will re-inforce the SP Assassin, as those who use it for longterm energy management get hit, badly. Shadow Prison change looks okay, as you'd need points in Deadly Arts for it to snare long enough for the combo. The problem with that change is that an Assassin that already uses Expose Defenses won't feel the impact, since they need a decent length Expose anyway. The other shadow steps change makes them more viable for Assassins to move around the field, but I'm thinking it will have the most impact on Warrior trains as they become slightly more deadly in spike impact. Not too sure on the impact of BSS, but it will definitely hit their energy pools harder. To really have a good pre-ingame assessment on the effects of these changes, the changes for everything related to this would have to be shown (mostly other skills changes, but also possibly your thoughts on shadow step 'lose all adrenaline' mechanics and such). --Kale Ironfist 01:43, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Well he really does see a huge impact thou beacuse the Assassin that is currently using exposed is at the end of his energy pool, Black Spider going up to 10 really hurts him, and Black Lotus taking a hit to energy hurts that guy even more as he normal needs it to power his exposed. ~Izzy @-'---- 01:52, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm a little worried about an Over-Nerf here. They need some changes but thats 3 skills on one bar all getting nerfed. Kinda a hard hit and might just wipe the SP sin! The other shadow steps are nice buffs, and the BLS recharge will make a big difference, as in some situations you were able to spike twice per 30 seconds, one with SP as hex and other with Expose (in situations where expose wasnt need to kill) Now there is no chance of that so it will be just wait wait wait Un-load! --ChronicinabilitY 02:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Edit: Random thought (it's late so if it's plain dumb just ignore it), but how about a 1 sec cast on SP ? --ChronicinabilitY 02:10, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Id rather see Black Spider Strike made to require a lead attack.--72.64.46.60 02:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I like the recharge changes on the shadowsteps... and the energy cost on Black Spider seems fair (you are skipping a lead and causing poison in one fell swoop, forcing a hex to be there isn't a big drawback for that). Black Lotus seems a bit un-needed though, what with the other nerfs to the build already. I dunno... Critical Strike is always an option for e-management too, so I don't see how big a difference it'll all make. 18 seconds seems like an awful lot of time to be waiting on the skill... perhaps just lower the energy gain a tiny bit? Let players keep it as a decent e-management skill, just lower the benefit slightly. Raising the recharge that high makes it harder to use for almost any situation. -- Jioruji Derako.> 02:28, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

It could be enough to stop them from using Expose + SP + TS before they start the combo, it depends how long SP still lasts at 4 Deadly Arts. Without 13 CS, you might run out of energy if you don't get any critical hits during the combo. I still would prefer to see a nerf to the +energy instead of the recharge of LBS, since the recharge simply doesn't matter with SP at 20 seconds. I'm not sure how you're supposed to spike with just Expose Defenses, your opponent isn't exactly going to stand still when he sees Expose Defenses come up. This only hurts every non-SP sin that was using LBS. The duration nerf to Shadow Prison however was definitely needed. --Draikin 02:32, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

(Edit conflict)How about just change the "Black" line of skills to remove an assassin hex when they hit? Would sort of make sense, use the hex to fuel the poison or energy gain at the loss of the hex. With this an assassin would need both Expose and SP on its target to finish it's combo, and after the first attack the target could possibly run away. --Deathwing 02:36, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Could you possibly make Aura of Displacement a 5 Energy skill again? I miss the old AoD sin....--Atlas Oranos 02:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm worried about that list, because it shows a pattern i saw quite often : you have one, and only one, problematic Assassin bar : the SP sin. Now, you hit the skills, but you hit BLS in such a way that it will badly hurt every build using it EXCEPT the SP sin. Or at least, it'll be the SP sin bar that is hurt the less by the change. Because other bars actually use it on recharge while in most cases SP sins wait it out anyway, as you said yourself. It reminds me of when Recurring Insecurity was nerfed because of the SB/RI spike in a way that made it incredibly bad for everything EXCEPT SB/RI while it was the only build that used it in the first place. Now BLS will still be viable for SP sins, but will be a very bad options for other bars. I'd strongly favor reducing the energy gained by BLS instead so that it doesn't allow for chaining skill 1 to 8 in order. Yes, it will hurt the SP sins, but that's the point. At worse, compared to now, they will have to drop Expose or their IAS. Well, it seems like a fair deal to me, allow them to have the energy to use one or the other, but not both on top of SP.

Second thing that worries me is no buff to anything else to favor diversity except 2 shadowsteps. All the decent sin bars i know, maybe with some Moebius exceptions, use at least BLS and/or BSS. Those receiving a harsh nerf, what are you left with? The other skills aren't seen for a good reason, they're subpar. The lead-offhand-dual combos are NOT worth it, and it could be fixed easily before GW:EN in great part by reducing their recharge a lot and raising the damage a bit. The shadowstep buffed are fun, but WHAT are you gonna use them with on Assassin? What bar can get any use out of them? MAYBE you could fit one as utility on a Moebius sin. I'd gladly fit Dark Prison on my Siphon Strength sin bar, but it's not viable anymore with the BLS + BSS nerf and no other realistic options. And having basically an SP sin copy but using Dark Prison instead with a different elite might be seen, but that's about the only different bar you risk seeing on an Assassin. On the other hand, Warriors will gladly include Death Charge in their setup, and some Melandru Dervs might fit Dark Prison (very good with Rending Sweep). I'm worried about those changes without any drawback for shadowsteps on non-Assassins, but i wouldn't care too much if at least they risked being used by Assassins too. But i don't see with what atm, at all.

So the end result i can see is this : The SP sins will still be used, though maybe with some slight modifications because of energy and so slightly weaker, but still viable. The other sin bars however that were seeing play will die because most of them relied on BLS and/or BSS and got nothing to compensate. The shadowsteps will be included in many warrior and dervish setups, but not on any Assassin because they got nothing to use them with. It's really not something i'd be happy to see after the update personally. At LEAST buff some of the lead/offhands to viability before destroying BLS for non-SP sins. Patccmoi 03:30, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that is fair criticisms Patccmoi, I'll re-think it a bit, I do think it hits that bar, but maybe not in the most interesting way. I like the lower energy suggestion, I'll see if I can come up with a different proposal. ~Izzy @-'---- 03:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I pretty much agree with everything Patccmoi said up there. Which is a rare occasion here =) --Midnight08 06:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Me too. Particularly the stuff about the inevitable abuse of Death's Charge + Dark Prison by warriors and dervishes. Errr 10:27, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Just add a lose all adrenaline clause if it really becomes a problem with warriors, not sure what to do with the dervish though. As for the proposed tweaks above, please do NOT increase the recharge of BLS to 18 seconds. The assassin does not need long recharging attack skills, especially when the limited amount of skills that you can combo with them have shorter recharge and end up being useless on your bar half of the time. If BLS is really a problem, then change it to work like Lyssa's Assault(Always hits, but is free if the target is hexed). This way, BLS would become more versatile but less powerful at fueling monster combos. Shendaar 16:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok so this is my current thinking: Black Lotus Strike: 10..31d 5..20e -> 5..20d 2..17e, beacuse now there is more pressure on Deadly Arts attrib because of SP, this puts some Critical Strikes pressure. I still really want to up the recharge a bit, I'll see if I can get away with not doing that just because it doesn't do anything to the typical sin. ~Izzy @-'---- 21:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

That's pretty harsh. At 12 CS, that is +14 damage and net of 4 energy. It does let you skip a lead though. If you increase energy cost on Black Spider Strike too, then SP assassins are effectively removed from the game. Of course, thats no definite but it would without a doubt hurt them quite a bit. --Deathwing 22:44, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Seems good, -3 energy is probably all it takes together with BSS at 10e. It should prevent them from using Expose - SP - Tiger Stance and still get away with using the entire combo. About the recharge... why do you want to change that? I'm not saying it wouldn't have any effect on Hero Battles (it would for Siphon Speed builds) but I'm not exactly sure how it's supposed to make the SP - Expose sin specifically a less viable build. --Draikin 23:12, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

If you are gonna nerf both BLS and BSS, then I hope you will do some serious buffing to all the other sub-par assassin skills, as these two are the core of many assassin builds. I'm all for nerfing the SP sin, but I am not very fond of the idea that my non-sp sin build might get nerfed in the process. At the end, the problem is SP itself and/or the combo with Expose. I would have no problem with a sin running up to me to cast Siphon Speed on me and chain his "SP" combo. The idea is that he actually has to run up to me, which in my opinion makes all the difference. Shendaar 04:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I wish BLS and BSS could receive only minor tweaks if any. They are really useful in many other non-SP builds just the way they are. The problem is Shadow Prison itself... along with Expose Defenses. They both allow for a tremendous amount of dependable spike damage, so nerf the two of them...

• Shadow Prison: 10e, 20r -> 15e, 25r
• Expose Defenses: 10e -> 15e

That way the two skills would almost never be run together but they are still functional separately. You have the bonus of a boost to Fox's Promise, an elite often criticized for being inferior to ED. SP overall is toned down in effectiveness, and if the net damage is still too high, you now only need to tone down BSS/BLS slightly.arredondo 07:03, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Or make ED only work if it's the only Assassin Hex on the target. Or like I suggested some other place, make the "Black" skills remove an Assassin Hex. Theres more creative ways to fix it other than just nuking the damage and doubling the energy/cast/recharge. That would probably take more programming and stuff though, so it's understandable. --Deathwing 07:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

ED as the only Hex allowed.... great suggestion. This skill is practically as good as what an elite should be. i like your restriction as it forces SP builds to deal with potential defenses. I still think SP needs to be 15E. --arredondo 02:47, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

It's much better this way. BLS is still a solid skill being a straight offhand and netting you energy, but the combination of -3E there and +5E on BSS means that one of the 10E skills will have to drop somewhere. The lower damage is perfect too. Great change on that one, and i think that with the 3 nerfs combined, the SP bar is much more balanced.

Now there is one thing left that i'd personally insist on, and it's BUFFING OTHER ATTACK SKILLS. Especially Lead-Offhands. If BLS-Dual-BSS-Dual becomes too expensive to use at will, you'd want other options too, and atm all lead-offhand combos tend to be bad. I know you're adding GFS with GW:EN, but i doubt people just want to wait for it, and it won't be use anyway if nothing else is buffed to function with it. I won't want GFS if no lead is worth using for instance. So here's a list of suggestions i'd do for Lead-Offhands that are there currently so that they can be viable without breaking anything. And honestly, you don't risk much at ALL by buffing them, they are worthless atm and never seeing play, and no matter how much you buff them they still won't lead to straight kill combo. The main idea is to have them being able to do strong, high damage combo of around 60-70% of target's health, but on a lower recharge so that while they're easier to save and require assist to straight kill, they end up draining monk's energy and if monks can't heal their target between 2 combos, they're done. You also need lower recharge because the combos are more fragile having more attack skills, so you need them to recharge fast if one misses, gets blocked, etc. Otherwise you don't do enough damage with them to justify being screwed for 10s when one is blocked.

So here would be my personal list:

Unsuspecting Strike : 2) 5/4. Lead Attack. If this attack hits, you strike for +19...31 damage. If your target was above 90% Health you deal an additional 15...75 damage and you lose 5E. (Makes it so it's more chainable with lower cost, but it still costs 10E when it's worth it, i.e. when the extra damage triggers).

Black Mantis Thrust : +8..20d -> +10..30d

Desperate Strike : Add +5..20d unconditional, 6r->4r

Disrupting Stab : 5/.5/8, interrupt target foes action. If that action was a spell, target foe is dazed for 1..4 seconds. (this way, it would become an opener on caster doing no damage, so definitely not leading to a straight kill, but with the advantage of being fast and dazing your target for a very short duration, basically just for the length of your combo. Can be used for starting a combo on monks for instance or an ele without them being able to fight back too much while you combo. Would give a very needed tool to fight stuff like BSurges. You still have to interrupt a spell for the daze though, and on monks at least that's not always easy).

Fox Fangs : 8r->6r. 5..30d -> 10..40d

Golden Fox Strike : 8r->6r

Nine Tail Strike : 8r->6r. 15..40d -> 15..45d This whole 'unblockable' combo is nice because it's a bit more reliable, but atm it also doesn't do enough and not often enough. A small damage buff combined with a small recharge buff would help it be more interesting. I'd still leave it at 6r instead of 4r like most other lead-off because since it can't be blocked, it shouldn't be used quite as often.

Golden Lotus Strike : 10r -> 4r. 5..11E -> 2..7E. 5..20d -> 10..25d. The recharge for a lead is far too long and the damage is too weak atm. Energy gain over time would be similar this way, but you could use it more often.

Golden Skull Strike : 15r -> 12r. +10..25d. 4..9 daze -> 2..7 daze. This would give it a bit more damage in the combo, and while the daze is shorter it could be used a bit more often. If you use it along with other 4r lead/off, would be every 3 combos. If you use it with Fox series, every 2 combos.

Temple Strike : 20r -> 16r

Jagged Strike : +1..16d, or 'If target is already bleeding, deal +5..20d instead'

Jungle Strike : 10r -> 4r.

Leaping Mantis Strike : 8r -> 4r. .5 activation. 14..20d -> 10..30d.

Wild Strike : 10..33d -> 10..40d OR .5 activation. 'If this attack hits or is blocked, target foe loses a stance'. Meaning that it always removes a stance unless it misses, which would at least help it get rid of block stances (but it would still be blocked and you'd still need to wait to continue your combo).

Golden Pheonix Strike 8r -> 6r. +10..30d -> +5..20d. Yes, it's a straight offhand on a 6s recharge, but it's expensive, doesn't do big damage and mostly can't be chained very well with others because of the 10E cost, and you can't do 'better' offhand-duals-offhand-duals with it considering no other straight offhand is on such a low recharge anyway. What it would give is a new tool to Assassins that want to just chain different duals to spike assist or have their effect. GPS-Critical Strike for 'free' damage spike, GPS-Shattering Assault for enchant removal, GPS-Horns for kd, etc. It could allow for a bar with 1 offhand and 2-3 dual attacks with other utilities. And while not being a bar that solo kill, doing something like Shadow Walk->GPS->Shattering Assault->Dash can very well lead to 'get in, kill, get out' if any1 else is assisting.

Mantis Touch. Personally i'd rework it like this: '5/.75/5. Must follow a Lead Attack. Shadowstep to target foe, that foe is crippled for 5..14s. This spell has half range'. This would allow to chain Dancing Dagger-Mantis Touch to a dual attack, since you'd be next to your target foe after. Note that you deal NO damage with this, so there's no way you can end up with a straight kill combo with it, and the shadowstep on low recharge is hardly abusable since it must follow a lead. It just allows a Deadly Arts sin to use Dual attacks. Would combo very well with Vampiric Assault for DA sin once it's out too. If the rework is too long or undesired though, 15r->5r would already do a lot for the skill.

So those are my suggestions. If at least a part of them could be considered for the update, it would GREATLY help sins to use Lead-Offhand-Duals and could give them some options to replace the nerfed BLS/BSS (some variety would be nice, but it won't happen if no buff is made). Basically it's small damage buffs that lets those combos do a bit more, a general lower recharge so that if they're stopped you can restart them in short order and pressure monks to heal your target more, etc. While none of them would have the killing power of offhand-dual-offhand-dual, in 5-6 seconds a sin could basically chain the combo twice, so they could still perform their role of 'get in, kill, get out' (because any combo done twice could potentially kill), but in a different manner. And at the same time it would allow them to pressure foes if nobody is pressuring/disabling them. I also added a short daze for Disrupting Stab because i think this would be a NICE addition to Assassins arsenal. It's not an easy shutdown to use, but it's one that can pay off very well if you can hit a caster at the good time with it. It would be similar to the Offhand->Horns option for Lead-Offhand combos to disable your target to prevent it from countering you mid combo. Temple Strike and GSS were also slightly buffed to help the disabling sins, which imo are something very nice that should be encouraged. It's great tactically and it's not easier to use than stuff like BHA. They have the advantage mostly of killing better on their own if they end up in a split, but that daze can be very worth it at flagstand too.

Sorry for the long read =p Patccmoi 14:51, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Do me a fav while yer at it Iz... Get Pat a job helpin ya there... Wit changes like that i wouldnt mind the changes to BSS and BLS much because i would have abunch of other toys to work with.... well thought out suggestions, they seem strong, but not overpowered at 1st glance. Please, if you must nerf BLS/BSS (personally i only use BSS in my builds, but even the 10e change will hurt them alot), buff the other assn skills that are never seen. Pats got a ton of good ideas there tho. --Midnight08 16:28, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. These are some very good suggestions. Like Midnight08, a 10e BSS would hurt my builds more than anything else(and for nothing), but if all the above changes were implanted, I wouldn't really care that much as I would have a lot of new skills to play with. Shendaar 16:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Lol, i'd sure leave my job for that, but i doubt they recruit people they don't know much about randomly on the net =p It's nice enough to finally have a place to post and know that Izzy will read it and possibly consider it! Patccmoi 14:29, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Wow impressive list most look like really good and much needed changes that would open up the assassin quite a bit. I especially like what you did with some of the lead attacks like jagged and leaping mantis sting.--DVDA 09:21, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Please fix leads and offhands

I'm concerned that without taking a serious look at the lead-offhand-dual combos you'll never see the non-elite shadowsteps used on anything other than warriors (since we'll still have shadow prison and...everything else). There are a bunch of suggestions on the underpowered skills page. The problems are pretty easy to fix and don't require anything more than dropping recharges in 90% of the cases. Please take a look at them when you have the time because this is the _most important_ change you can make to promote more diversity in assassin builds. --Symbol 02:50, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Make Lead>Off-hand>Dual worth while. Skills like Jagged Strike cause bleeding for 1..20 seconds, no + damage. Its pretty much impossible to make a spike off of that skill. 71.10.103.137 03:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Unsuspecting Strike -Ichigo724 03:13, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

If you take a look at GW:EN skills you can see I pushed the Lead-offhand-dual a lot more, in the end you only have room for 4 attacks on your bar, and the best skills are dual attacks, so without making Offhands and Leads do something powerful your always gonna push back on the non normal chains. ~Izzy @-'---- 03:44, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's true currently because lead-offhand-dual is too fragile thanks to long recharges. If you drop recharges I can think of plenty of builds that can pressure and have good utility thanks to quickly recycling chains doing high (but not OMG KILL high) damage. GW:EN really offers only one skill that's at all relevant to lead-offhand-dual, which is Golden Fang Strike. While that's a solid skill it's not enough by itself without attractive leads to go with it...and that's pretty easy to fix. I understand that you like to take baby steps when it comes to balance, but I'm not seeing the problem in just fixing this now. In the worst case people will just chain duals together like they always did and you haven't created any new balance problems...best case you'll actually see some variety in sin builds. You have, what, a week to evaluate potential fixes before you go into crunch mode for GW:EN? Why not make the most of it? --Symbol 04:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

The real problem with lead -> offhand -> dual IMO is that it takes too long to get to the spike, by the time you're there any active prot has already switched to the spike target. --Pork soldier 07:29, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

There's been some suggestions of making some leads or offhands .5s activation. That could help them a bit to compress the combo. For example, Wild Strike could be .5s activation so that Lead-Wild Strike-Dual doesn't take much longer than offhand-dual to hit. That would make them much more viable as spike assist. As for pressure, which imo they SHOULD be better at than offhand-duals, what they need is a serious recharge reduction.

Interesting effects would greatly encourage their use too. For example, there's been a suggestion to make Disrupting Stab instead .5s activation and Daze target for 1..4s if you interrupt a spell. Using this, you could for instance open up a monk for a combo and they'd be dazed for the duration so they can't easily prot themselves. It's just a very short daze, so it's not like you can spread it or disable a guy for long, but it would add an interesting shutdown effect to the combo and could be enough to encourage its use.

But in the great majority of cases, the problem is the recharge. Jungle Strike has 10s recharge, why? Leaping Mantis Strike has 8s recharge, why? Mantis Touch has 15s recharge, come on! If your combo is less reliable and less deadly, you need to do it more often to get kills. A low recharge would allow that. 4s is really what i think is the best, so that you can't chain a combo twice in a row straight, but you can reuse it very often, and if your lead is blocked for instance you don't have to wait long to retry. Assassins ARE their attack skills offense-wise, as opposed to warriors and dervishes. If those attack skills are on a long recharge, then Assassins are in real trouble. And the damage in general is too low too, considering it comes on a dagger. Basically, the dual attack makes up for the fact that your 2 last attacks did nothing much, so instead of having a powerful 3 attack combos you have overall pretty normal damage for 3 attack skills (Lead-offhand-dual combos on Assassins aren't doing more damage than 3 attack skill combos on Warriors or Dervishes, but those also hurt in between, Assassins don't). For Lead-Offhand-Dual to be viable, the damage needs to be more interesting and be more around 60-70% of a target's health if it's not reduced in any way. For that you need Lead/Offhands doing in the +20..52 range.

Golden Fang Strike will be a nice addition, but that's really the only thing GW:EN brings, and if it has no interesting Lead to be used with, you won't see it much more in the end either. Lotus Strike is ok, but it will be utility at best (or like, used on an R/A with Expert's Dexterity so he can reduce it and other 12s recharge duals to 3s recharge and spam away for free), because at 12s recharge you can't really base a combo on it, Lead-Offhand-Dual combos don't do enough to be on a 12s recharge like offhand-dual-offhand-dual. It might be a secondary Offhands for Temple Strike/Golden Skull Strike builds, which at least gives it a place, but it's not what will put lead-offhands-dual combos in play. So raise damage, reduce recharge. I don't see what's even dangerous about it, it's not like they will ever be more powerful than offhand-dual-offhand-dual for straight kill, but at least the low recharge gives them an advantage that can be worth considering. You'd have the choice between long recharge but very high damage combo, or short recharge but medium-high damage ones. Atm it's the choice between long recharge, very high damage combo or medium-high recharge, low damage combos. And the choice is pretty damn obvious. And i remember when Jagged Strike was reduced to 1s and BMS to 4s, with the update something was posted like 'we think this can help lead-offhand-duals, if it goes well we will make further changes'. But the thing is, we never had any offhand worth using with them (Wild Strike is the only one nearly worth it, but damage is still too low). It's pointless to buff Leads if no Offhand is worth comboing with. Patccmoi 14:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Wild Strike would be fine except for the fact that it is 100% inferior to the other two wild skills in the game one of which can easily be used by assassins. Wild Blow, always hits and removes a stance, same for Wild Throw. Wild Strike though a) requires a lead attack and b) doesn't automatically hit and remove a stance unless you add a 3rd skill into the mix such as Fox's Promise. I think of way better elites to use, both from a PvE and a PvP aspect. So I suggest the following for Wild Strike "Off-Hand Attack. Must follow a lead Attack. Wild Strike cannot be "blocked", this attack strikes for +10...30 damage and any Stance being used by target foe ends." As it stands right now, because of the requirement that it must follow a lead attack, Wild Strike is the most expensive stance removal skill in the game, 10 energy minimum and that's likely to miss, 15-20 energy if you throw in Fox's Promise, Way of the Fox or Expose Defenses just so you can actually hit the target. If an assassin is going to spend that much, the skill really needs some buffing. Dargon 15:49, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it's really easy to overlook just how insane Black Lotus Strike really is. As things stand now, Black Lotus Strike, once it lands, essentially pays for the rest of your combo all by itself. Think about that for a moment. The old Assassins were really limited by their maximum energy. You had to make sure you had the energy to cast whatever you needed to pre-combo, as well as maintaining enough energy to execute the combo itself. Black Lotus Strike, in addition to being an awesome straight-to-dual offhand attack with good damage, completely throws off that math. You can do whatever you want pre-combo with your energy, as long as you have enough left over to land Black Lotus Strike you'll have plenty of energy to execute whatever combo you want. Assassins were the first profession to be limited by max energy, with the ability to spend it all in one big burst. Black Lotus Strike throws that restriction out the window. -Ensign 07:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I fully agree with that part, but it's getting nerfed a bit now. With an average of 14E gained, it will pay for itself + a 5E dual, but not a full combo. Especially not if that combo wanted to use another 10E straight dual (although you'll have the option of going back to BLS-Horns-Falling-BoS-Impale, but that's a less reliable combo). Now you'll need at least 15-20E to start the combo, even with BLS, and this means you can't really do Expose->SP->IAS before you even start. The damage should be nerfed too, and while it's not a lot every single bit counts for Assassin combos. I agree that it still gives a lot, and takes out that energy restriction a bit, but it's also required for some builds that it does. Maybe it could get hit even more on the energy gained, but i'm not sure it would be too good for the class overall. Many Assassin builds other than SP are extremely expensive in terms of energy spent and rely on something like BLS to have some energy to combo on top of doing something else (like hexing, etc.). If BLS is nerfed more, i'd seriously consider adding a breakpoint to Critical Strike (0-2-6-10-14) which would allow for better attribute distribution and more energy if you're willing to max your CS. Assassins are one of the few classes that very often has to spec 13 in their primary attributes, and that's a LOT if you want to use Shadow/Deadly Arts with any efficiency (well i doubt you can use Shadow Arts with efficiency even if you put 16 in there cause the skills are bad, but Deadly Arts can mix very well with combos with stuff like Siphon Strength, Siphon Speed, etc.).

But i don't think buffing Lead-Offhands risks creating any issue with BLS =p It should just make some non-BLS options viable. (just saying that cause i wondered why you decided to post this in this particular section) Patccmoi 14:29, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd rather see the BLS/BSS pair nerfed down into the ground with the rest of the Assassin attacks. From the time I've spent playing around with Assassin, one thing is abundantly clear - the stronger and longer the attack combos are, the worse for the game Assassins are. The current Shadow Prison 'sins introduce some of the worst gameplay Guild Wars has ever seen. Assassin is a healthy, interesting profession when the strength of the character is in the non-attack skills, not in the combos themselves. -Ensign 10:57, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, and my favorite Assassin build that i ever had, and that i'm playing now in GvG, is a Siphon Strength sin which has most of its strength in its ability to disable attackers before killing them, which is incredibly strong in a split, while having still a very good use at flagstand with frontline control and pressure. But Assassins still require to kill. They still need to take out their opponents. And their way of doing so is through combos. The 'straight kill' combos AREN'T good for the game, i fully agree there and i hated them for a long while, even though what every damn assassin seem to think is 'how can i make a straight kill combo no matter how much it taxes my bar'. But the only alternative i can personally see so that Assassins have still interesting, powerful combos that WON'T be aimed at straight killing is Lead-Offhand-Duals. But to say that the current ones are worth it is delusional. They are subpar, badly. Their strength doesn't take into account that dagger base damage is very weak, and if you don't chain dual attacks those +10..18d attack skills are damn weak. I don't see how the list i proposed above would create any badly overpowered stuff. The only one i could see POTENTIALLY be too powerful is Disrupting Stab because it introduces something that wasn't there in the game before : a cheap, fairly short recharge non-elite daze. It also lasts for a very short duration, but it's still what it is and being a 'new' mechanic, it has more risks. But the rest only makes it so that using Lead-Offhand-Dual combos you don't feel like they're a waste. Their recharge makes up for their weaker strength, and a bit of utility is added along with slightly higher damage (which is still nothing even close to SP combos). Sure you could say an Assassin could put 2 lead-offhand-dual combos back to back on his bar, but that's the same as a warrior putting 6-7 attack skills on his bar. He can use them all back to back if they let him, but he's pretty worthless for the rest and it's still hard to pull 6 attack skills in a row.

Good, viable buffs to lead-offhand-dual combos along with a nerf to offhand-dual-offhand-dual (which should be done here) can actually make it so Assassins achieve a good balance between combos and other utility (such as their hexes and shutdowns, of which i tried to add a bit of with Disrupting Stab change). As long as their attack skills strength is mainly in offhand-dual-offhand-dual, this will be the sole focus of a majority of builds. But if lead-offhand-duals are too weak when offhand-dual combos get nerfed, then the profession as a whole will just disappear because it won't have any reason to really see play. After all, Assassin utility can just be used by /A if it's so valuable but combos aren't. -Patccmoi 15:29, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Builds - this game has always been about strong builds. Assassins are inherintly about combos' I agree that the SP sin with the combination of snare/unblockable attacks/IAS/and Dual Dual attacks is a bit overkill, but ppl have to understand that sometimes the game is about coming up with better builds than your opponents. The SP sin is one of those "Better Builds" What makes this bad is the fact that assassins by nature are forced into 123456 concepts. because of the way their attacks work. So ppl see it and know how easy it works. Still, the game will always favor those with positional awareness. The Sp sins also have a weakness that ppl seem to be missing. Its pretty sad that intead of players adjusting their game to the current meta they instead complain about the builds they cannot easily counter. Here's an example of what i mean.

• Prof - Counter - examp - note
• Monk - Hex Removal - CoP - this skill will counter any SP sin chain almost instantly.
• War - Health Gain or Weakness - Signet of Strength - The str line gives 3 skills which raise max health even a gain of 100-150 is enough to make an assassin spike worthless overall and give time for mok support.
• Rng - Interrupts - Distracting Shot - Disrupt 1 attack in the chain and you break it. If you are watching the assassin, disrupt expose so they are forced to deal with blocking.
• Nec - Weakness/Miss Skills- The curses line offers several ways to add lasting weakness weakening attack dmg - better yet, use reckless haste, parasite, or similar skills and keep them on an assassin effectively removing him from the game. Shorter duration recharge and cast time and lower energy costs on some of these skills would make them more active and make this more viable.
• Mes - Interrupts and miss skills. - Price of failure - see above.
• Ele - Blind or 90% snares.
• Asn - Block or Blind - ...- not much here, assns are the weakest overall vs themselves.
• Rt - Interrupts- A spammer can utilize Wanderlust or dissonance to make assassin chains completely unreliable.
• Derv - forms - Both Balth and Melan offer defenses which make assn spikes difficult.
• Para - the 1 prof i still dont know well so sry cant answer this 1.

In the end i believe that the thing that breaks the SP sin is Expose as it removed blocking as a viable defense for 8 of the above professions. Because of this i agree that Expose should probably be modified to only work if the target is unhexed by assn hexes. I have heard that the devs use Masgic The Gathering as a focus when designing the game. Personally i see the build as the deck, the player still determines how that deck is done. Some decks are easy to play but there will always be counters availible against the easy builds. Part of being a better player lies in being able to find those weaknesses and tailor your build to adapt to them though.--Midnight08 18:57, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I actually like those skill tweaks a lot. Black Lotus Strike is needed to make many Assassin builds usable. One thing I'm concerned about, is why Golden Phoenix Strike doesn't return any energy. The current problem with Assassins is that even having a chain of 5 energy attack combos is hard on your energy. The assassin bar can go one of two ways: Fast snare+IAS+dumpattacks spike, or run up, slash away with tank skills, spam attacks to fill bar and deal damage, the former being what the SP sin is currently. Frontline sins are fairly balanced and don't really need tweaking. The SP sin with the powerful spike is what's troublesome. My suggestion is to increase Shadow Prison recharge to the 25 second range (you'd be amazed to see what 5 seconds can do in terms of balance). Don't touch Black Lotus Strike other than giving it a higher recharge (which was done well above). A central problem with assassin builds right now are Lead attacks - they are either (or a combination of) very weak, no bonus effects, needlessly long recharge, or slow. The Dual Attacks on the other hand, are very powerful, and those attacks are the ones people want to get to ASAP, and thus, they use skip-lead attacs like BLS, BSS, and to a lesser extent, GPS. Possibly the only viable lead attack in PvP use right now is Leaping Mantis Sting, which is then, again, followed by Exhausting. The entire concept is broken, and unless that is fixed, Assassin builds won't be fixed. 76.64.59.41 06:08, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with the whole concept being so broken. I see many people saying that, but i think that if the list i gave above came to pass, at least in part, many lead-offhand-dual combos would be interesting. Won't lead to straight kill, but can seriously hurt someone, or open them up to be killed by others, or take them out fairly quickly by being done twice in a row if nobody is there to offer outside help (which leaves Assassins as very strong split characters). It's just the balance of Lead and Offhands that was screwed up, by making them too weak to compensate for dual attacks. But in the end, what screws up the concept is much more that you can EASILY skip lead and offhands, and thus just spam duals. Make the skipping less interesting and make the lead-offhands better, with MUCH better recharge, and then you got something functional -Patccmoi 15:36, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

That's what I said. 76.64.59.41 04:21, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

As a change of direction, I propose that the balance problem with modern 'sin bars isn't with the lack of variation in the particular attack skills used, but in the focus and power shift away from the Shadow and Deadly Arts stuff and into the dagger attacks themselves. The Factions-era Assassins were used almost entirely for their tactical abilities, the movement and utility granted by Shadow Arts skills. The combos used ended up being compressed further and further, eventually reducing to Shock->Falling Spider->Twisting Fangs on a bar brimming with utility. Modern 'sins, on the other hand, focus so much more on achieving the longest, most powerful combo possible with only room for a minimal amount of utility, even with 8 skills on the bar. It's that shift that's the real problem, not that everyone is using the hex combos. Previous sins were all about using a lot of cool tricks to get an advantage and to then unleash your combo; modern sins are about unleashing your ridiculous combo as often as possible, and using your few remaining skill slots to force it through. The former was one of the most interesting and dynamic characters in Guild Wars. The latter, current one is one of the least. My suggestion? To hammer Black Lotus Strike, hit Black Spider Strike, and rebalance dagger attacks to a generally lower level of power, while revisiting the Shadow and Deadly Arts lines and cranking up the power of the most interesting skills there significantly. Make Assassins less about the 12345 combo, and more about the tools used to set it up. -Ensign 23:33, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem with lead-offhand is simple: The incredibly high power of dual attacks. Blades of Steel can do upwards of 200 damage for 5 energy. Twisting Fangs provides DW and an automatic activation of it, Horns provides a large amount of damage and a KD, and both have two chances to cut through block/miss/whatever to do what they need to do. Combos really revolve around the duals.

It's similar to the old Sever-Gash vs. Eviscerate scenario, Eviscerate is seen as one of the best Warrior elites because you don't need a useless primer, just hit them once and you get your +damage and DW in one shot. If Sever and Cripslash needed another primer to work, I doubt anyone would even be running swords. Lead-skips need to be significantly clunkier than lead-offhand if leads are ever going to be worthwhile. Especially when leads are treated as heavily as conditionality for other things. BLS and the upcoming Lotus Strike are identical except for their condition, so which would you rather have: Siphon Speed/Shadow Prison, or a lead attack?

EDIT -- In regards to Assassins formerly needing to watch their energy, there are a couple other things that happened too. Combos became a lot less fragile: Because 4-component combos are now two 2-component combos each initiated separately, you can't just disrupt Horns or use the condition to avoid the KD and expect to not eat the rest of it. The addition of DW to Impale is pretty important too: The modern Horns-BOS-Impale bar packs a huge amount more damage than Horns-Twisting did (+120dmg+60 Earth vs. +36dmg), costs the same, and still provides a DW now. Impale is also very resilient: Two duals gives you 4 attempts to cut through block/miss/whatever to qualify for it. If the second offhand fails for some reason, you still qualify for it if the first dual attack hit at all. Riotgear 07:20, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

By "rebalance dagger attacks to a generally lower level of power" you actually mean "tone down duals" right? Because leads and offhands are pretty weak already. I agree that these ridiculous six skill combo chains have to go, but I disagree that dagger attacks need toning down. What I'd _like_ is if I could pick a three attack combo that offers a good mix of utility and damage, and then fill the rest of my bar with more interesting things. But the damage needs to be there, one way or the other, because you can't really make a build around shadow arts, and pure deadly arts builds are hurting for energy management. Now the dagger attacks aren't entirely lacking in utility, there's a pretty decent selection of snares and disruption available, it's just that they fall down because of recharge, and occasionally because of damage. Fix that first and the class becomes interesting again. --Symbol 08:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I really agree that i'd want more focus in the Shadow Arts and Deadly Arts. Shadow Arts especially are EXTREMELY outdated in terms of skill power atm. I mean, the old Assassin bar was using Caltrops for utility, what is THAT worth now? 20s recharge cripple for 10E? When every single split character has Mend Touch, and you're very likely to face RC or at least Draw at the stand? Shadow Arts also lack utility as a whole, but that's gonna be hard to change without fully reworking skills. I mean, about 75% of the skills in there are about staying alive, which isn't something you want to fill your bar with if you plan to kill someone. Way of the Fox is horribly underpowered compared to Expose. Way of the Lotus gives less energy than BLS usually (you have less SA than CS) on top of using a skill slot that isn't worth anything else while you have energy gain included IN attack skills (and GW:EN will push that even more). Mirrored Stance is some RA bs. If Blinding Powder and Caltrops were given aggressive stats, at least those 2 could be worth something.

They suffer a bit from the same problem as the old Falling-Twisting combo, that had a chance to kill through degen, but now is worthless against anything but NPCs, because Mend Touch can eat it up. Killing through condition degen, just like controlling people with long recharge condition skills, is pretty much over now, unless you have tools like Daze or DShot to get rid of Mend Touch. This old way of pressuring and killing doesn't work, and you can't expect Assassins to kill with this anymore. So they need something that can deal direct damage too. This is why i think good lead-offhand-duals with short recharge would help a lot, because they don't kill straight doing lame combos, but they can mix degen and direct damage, and on short recharge it can allow you to pressure through self-heals and mend touch (which is required or Assassins become worthless in split. If an Assassin can't kill through self-heals and self-condition removal, they're not doing their job at all). And some stuff like short dazes to counter Mending Touch would help too.

If you have buffed Shadow Arts/Deadly Arts utility (which should be a priority too, i agree) with solid but not straight killing Lead-Offhand-Dual combos, you have an interesting class that can be interesting at flagstand but shining in splits. If you leave dagger combos too weak, then people will simply fit some SA/DA utility on /As if it's truly interesting because there would be no reason at all to use an Assassin primary. Remember when Deadly Paradox/Feigned was powerful, it wasn't used on Sins mainly. Shadow Shroud, arguably one of the most powerful Shadow Arts skills, was nearly only used on Me/A. Shadow Form was even used on Extend Enchant Dervs. Assassin's primary doesn't do anything for SA/DA, and Assassins have bad AL, so i don't see why any1 would use an Assassin primary for SA/DA if it isn't because you want to mix them with good combos. Not '1-8 you're dead' combos, just something solid that can fit in 3, or MAX 4 (including Impale for example) skill slots, so that you have room on your bar to fit that utility somewhere. Patccmoi 14:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I really mean tone down duals, and the 'straight to dual' offhands (namely Black Spider and Black Lotus). The current state of dagger attacks is that the duals are retarded, the straight to dual offhands (at least the hex ones) are really good, while the lead attacks and offhands are generally crap. I mean it's bad enough that, for instance, even if I did land a lead attack, I would want to use a shortcut offhand because they are so much better than the offhands that follow leads.

With dagger attacks themselves, I'd want to see a lot more utility and power put into the lead attacks, with more power in the combo offhands while the duals are toned down. Most of the time it's the duals that have the most utility right now, how silly is that? -Ensign 23:16, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

If that's what you mean with nerfing dagger attacks, i'm fully agreeing. Stronger lead and offhands requiring a lead with weaker straight offhands and duals would help balancing the class, and the whole combo system, a lot. I'd really like a bar like 'Leaping Mantis Strike-Wild Strike-Shattering Assault-Twisting Fangs/Impale-Shadow Walk-Dash-Restful Breeze-Disrupting Dagger' to be viable. It would be a great bar with lots of utility (snare, interrupt, running skill, enchant removal, spike skill, self-heal, offensive and defensive shadowstep, stance removal) that would be very fun and interesting in split and still useful at flagstand (Shattering Assault is never a waste). And all it really needs for it is lower recharge on LMS, and a small buff to Wild Strike for a bit more damage and possibly a sure stance removal (not necessarily can't be blocked, but removing a stance even if it's blocked. Not if it misses obviously). Many interesting bars could be made viable with just small tweaks here and there, but they're needed Patccmoi 15:05, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I can't agree with all the controversy around BLS and BSS since they are doing the job assassin is suppose to do. I think it is the other skills that belong on par in order for more Assassin builds to remain deadly. Skills like Jagged Strike allow assassin to do something they arn't designed to do, go around and hit everyone with bleeding. That's wonderful, it has nothing to do with Assassin builds, tack on another 7 seconds of recharge and put some damage on the thing that way we can get bleeding and deep wound from skills that deal damage and put something else in the dual attack slot. Same goes for Golden Fang Strike, 4 more seconds recharge and some damage, deepwound if your enchanted, this way we cand deal a normal amount of damage with these conditions. Bring the recharge times to 10 seconds if you have to, the Assassin needs a damaging combo, the assassin isn't getting any damage from their basic attacks, this isn't sever artery, it needs damage, even if it is the lowest and most mundain, some damage needs to be in there.

Personally, I thought the cannot be blocked clause was a bit silly for Wild Strike, because your going to need some sort of preperation for the lead not to miss anyway, leaving the only combination option of Golden Fox Strike, which also requires an enchantment. It would have been loads better to make Foxes Promise a frequent skill that way a blocking ability can be countered regularly and wild strike could be used together to take down stances. Really, if you wanted to make stance breaking viable otherwise, Wild Strike should have been made into a lead attack with low damage a higher recharge and higher cost with unblockability, or the later with no damage and 5 energy cost, this way an Assassin could start a combo with a break, ensuring the rest of his attacks. I find it kind of silly to make the off-hand stance breaker unblockable knowing the lead has to be considered as well. The changes pretty much remove Fox Fang from the game, actually, completely remove it as it is in all ways inferior, all for one and nothing for the other.

Leads and Off-Hands across the board should see cost improvements and damage improvements, they should all be doing damage +more damage or +an effect, the fact that BLS and BSS can skip a lead and offer some of the best effects kind of double defeats the competition, and lowering the Assassin standard isn't going to help the Assassin. If we start with BLS is exactly where it should be, and take up all other skills that don't match up, Assassin attacks would be where they should be.

If activation times on attacks are improved, Lead attacks are the only ones that need it, drop them all to 1/2s activation and we have real leads that work like jabs to set up an attack, and it slightly reduces the failure rate of leading with an attack instead of a hex or enchantment.--BahamutKaiser 03:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I haven't read all of this but here goes what I think about SP sins and nerf around them. Well, Izzy, generally, you're doing it wrong, I think. BLS wasn't even that much of a problem, neither was BSS, HoTO too, Trampling and so on. These skills weren't overpowered by themselves. They're overpowered in one particlar build- and that is of course, SP sins. Instant snare, shadow step, extremally fast spike due to 33%ias was too overpowered. By nerfing BLS and HoTO people didn't stop using SP sins. They just started going Black Mantis Thrust, Jungle Strike, Trampling, Falling Lotus and BoS + Impale or Twisting Fangs. So, this nerf didn't really affect SP sins that much, just screwed other, non-SP sins. My suggestion to fix the current state, remove SP spike without weakening sins any further- simply make SP unusable with stances. Something like: Elite Hex Spell. Shadow Step to target foe. For 1...8...10 seconds, that foe moves 66% slower. Add "All of your stances are disabled for 10...5...4 seconds. If you're in a stance while using this skill, this stance is removed." No 33% IAS = no super spike Victory for everybody- no SP spike, no need to nerf other perfectly fine sin skills. No need to nerf other classes' IAS stances, like it happened with BoA. SoundWave 20:55, 20 November 2007 (UTC) SoundWave