User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Underpowered Skills/Warrior/Archive 1

Crude Swing

I just never saw this skill being played. Easily interupted is just killer and directly contradicting its purporse of dealing damage against bigger mob (as that is exaclty situation that will end up in your interupt). Countermeasures to prevent interupt are usually far fetched (from mantra of resovle to zero warriors enery to using elite like Earth Shaker to enable mundane skill) and unvieldy. Zweistein 17:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The problem with this skill is not the fact that it's easily interrupted. I've sucessfully used it in PvE and RA on an Earthshaker Warrior, which you seem to imply isn't any good... Well, AoE Knockdowns are very powerful. In fact, Earthshaker has seen a lot of play in GvG lately. The thing is, the actual effect of Crude Swing is pretty weak, though I like it in PvE because it gets you the adrenaline for Earthshaker fast. Anyway, It's honestly pretty easy to use, but the effect is weak. --TimeToGetIntense 21:50, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I didnt imply ES to be bad skill at all, what is bad when you need it to make make nonelite skill dependable. Using CS skill when facing 2+ mobs (thats, when want ot use it), chances of getting it interupted are quite high unless you use earthshaker to ensure that melee wont disrupt you, and even then there are ranged attackers. Other than that, it requires running around without having any aggro on you (a bit laughable proposition for warrior, even if he is not tank) or some other character slaving blind of miss hexes. CS effect of +damage is pretty weak for what this skill requires to be dependable, without easily interuptible it would means basically new skill for PvE usage and hardly upset PvP Zweistein 11:26, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

The effect of Crude Swing in PvE is very strong, though. It can easily net you 3+ strikes of adrenaline. It's just a matter of pulling it off. I found that it's pretty easy with Earthshaker and ocassionally I'd find an opportunity to use it without using Earthshaker. The ranged guys tend to be wand users or bow users, so their attack speeds are slow enough that you can easily time a Crude Swing. I guess Whirlwind Attack makes Crude Swing pretty moot now, though. --TimeToGetIntense 20:59, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Axe Mastery

I must ask this simple question... WHY is Axe Mastery so very underpowered? Compared to Swordsmanship skills. Seriously, Compare the two. I have. To explain my thoughts... Well, I'll start with Decapitate, Eviscerate, and Dismember. Decapitate is really only viable as a finisher move, and it leaves you helpless. Removing all adrenaline and energy leaves you very crippled when you fight anyone after you manage to kill that foe, if you do so succeed. If not, well, you won't be getting very far after using it. Eviscerate deals minor bonus damage in my opinion, and deep wound. While Dismember also causes deep wound, for 2 less adrenaline. Dismember is really the only viable Axe skill out of the three, plus it's 3 less adrenaline, and non-elite. Furthermore, there are 4 axe mastery skills that require a deep wound to have their effects. Dismember is the only one that attains this well. As there are only 4 Axe skills that cause deep wounds. Eviscerate requires 8 adrenaline, wich is less than those skills, Decapitate makes you lose all Adrenaline, and Swift Chop requires it to be blocked, wich is a very bad requirement to allow those skills to work. (If Swift chop is blocked, likely the following attacks requiring Deep Wound, Will also be blocked.) Cleave is essentially the same as Quivering Blade, however Quivering Blade deals greater bonus damage, and can be used in conjunction with Plague touch if it fails. Whirling Axe is a lot like Repeating Strike for assassins, only elite. I've also never seen any build use Whirling Axe personally, because the bonus damage is not great, and it would require 2 more strikes of adrenaline to use it again, unlike Repeating Strike, wich can be used again and again, without other attacks in-between. Also, Lacerating chop is the only Axe Mastery skill that causes bleeding, and requires a Knockdown in order to do so. The only real ways to attain said knockdown, at least within Warrior Skills, are all conditional, Requiring either a Block or that they are moving. (And if it's blocked, surely Lacerating chop will be too.)Critical chop is Essentially Savage Slash, only that it fails often. Triple Chop has high bonus damage, however Hundred Blades is still better than it, Due to hitting all adjacent foes twice rather than once. Also, Swords have the only skills available to Warriors to hit a single foe more than once, Axes have no such skills. Disrupting Chop requires 6 adrenaline, while Savage Slash is energy based, and able to interrupt at the beginning of the battle, when Foes usually use their most powerful skills. Furious Axe helps with the adrenaline gain, but only upon being blocked, and again, if you' blocked, you'll likely be blocked again, as Axes have no unblockable attacks. All that's left that's currently released is Penetrating Blow and Penetrating Chop, Both duplicates of eachother, and while they have 25% armor penetration, This penetration does not stack with Strength (to my knowledge) Making it really a +9-25% armor penetration attack, removing bonus penetration from base strength armor penetration of course. Furthermore, there are no skills that give bonuses if you are using an Axe. Hammers have Dwarven Battle Stance, and Swords have Ripostes, Heck, Shields have Shield Bash and Shield Stance. But Axes have no such skills. Furthermore, in the New Guild Wars : Eye of the North skills that you've shown us how they are currently, As of current, Axes only get 1 new skill, Being a 3 adrenaline critical hit.. In my opinion Keen Chop is mostly pointless. Sure, it's a critical hit, but there's nothing else gained. No bonus damage, No condition, Nothing. Whereas Swords on the other hand... Well, let's take a look at what they're given, shall we? Disarm - This skill is essentially... A weaker, Non-elite Wail of Doom. just from the base interruption, it's already better than Disrupting Chop since it's energy based. But it also disables all of their attack skills for up to 5 seconds, Wich is far too overpowered. And the other skill Swords get, Knee Cutter. That skill is also, Far too powerful. 7 energy and 3 adrenaline for only 5 adrenaline and requiring a crippled foe? Well, that's easy to attain! unlike axes, that require a foe suffering from deep wound to cause crippled, Swords have an adrenaline-based Cripple, as well as Crippling slash, to cause crippled and bleeding at once. Follow either of those up with Knee cutter, and you basically cut the cost of Hamstring down to 3 energy, or if used after Crippling Slash, you gain the 7 energy all by itself. Added on top of the energy gain, you also gain 3 adrenaline at higher levels of swordsmanship. That makes this skill BETTER than Dragon Slash, an Elite, in my opinion. Let's look at the two Side-by-side, shall we? Dragon Slash - 10 Adrenaline, bonus damage, and 5 adrenaline gain at higher levels of Swordsmanship. Knee Cutter - 5 Adrenaline, Requiring Crippled, no bonus damage, but 7 energy and 3 adrenaline at higher levels of Swordsmanship. It requires HALF the adrenaline Dragon Slash does, So you can use it twice in the time you can use one Dragon slash, and furthermore, at 10 adrenaline, all of your Adrenaline skills will likely be charged anyway. But that point aside, you can use Knee Cutter twice in the time you can use Dragon Slash once, gaining 14 energy and 6 adrenaline, rather than bonus damage and 5 adrenaline. Futhermore, if used in conjunction with Crippling Slash, it half charges up Crippling Slash to be used again, so you never have to worry about your foe being Crippled when you attack, Crippling Slash will be charged long before Knee Cutter recharges... The only thing Axes honestly have going for them, is that they deal 6 more damage on critical hits, however, they also deal 5 less damage on the lowest damage they can, and I thought they were fairly balanced, You can deal greater damage, but you can also deal less damage, Swords are more consistant than Axes. Anyway, that's all I had to say... The only reason I can see you favoring an Axe over a Sword is if you have 12 weapon mastery or greater, and choose not to use any skills from that weapon mastery's skills, but want a melee weapon rather than a Spear. (And spears deal greater damage per second than Axes do, with their damage rating being 14-27, greater low end damage than Swords, and only 1 less damage on critical hit than Axes.) That was all I had to say, I was hoping that Axe skills were improved, I feel that Swordsmanship Skills are far greater than Axe mastery skills. In PvE and PvP. Devvu

It's simple. Axe is superior to all weapons besides Scythe. You always critical hit when a target is "fleeing" from you. Axe has the highest DPS under this condition. It also has higher average DPS than Sword when attacking stationary targets. I'm talking about running 14+ weapon mastery by the way. --TimeToGetIntense 05:56, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't quite say that. First of all, spears have only 1 less damage than axes. Hammers and scythes deal more damage on "fleeing" targets, and axes have no real native snares. Save for Axe Rake, wich requires a deep wound before it can cripple. And as for Damage per second, well, Axes have no unblockable skills, many sword skills have greater bonus damage, And sure, it might deal higher damage than swords under high weapon mastery, but high weapon mastery is less valuable since Axe skills are far weaker. Furthermore not having a Sword restricts you from using Ripostes, and Swordsmanship has several Unblockable Skills, While Axes have none, only 2 skills that cause bleeding and 3 strikes of adrenaline respectively, if blocked.

Spears have a longer attack time and can be dodged (plus, their +damage isn't as high). Hammers and Scythes are TWO handed, removing your 16 armor shield and have longer attack times. Snares? That's your price for being the best one handed weapon for spiking. Unblockables? Pure/Jaizhenju Strike aren't worth bringing because it precludes a stance. I'm not entirely sure on your argument with Ripostes as they aren't really offensive in nature (and isn't relating to weapon masteries anyway). Axes aren't underpowered by any means. --Kale Ironfist 06:16, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Hammer attacks slower and actually has lower peak DPS than Axes. Hammer is only stronger than Axe while attacking stationary targets. Scythe does have higher peak DPS than Axe, though. Spears don't always crit on fleeing targets and they have a 1.5 second attack interval. By the way, I can't believe you compared Disrupting Chop to Disarm. Can Disarm disable Aegis? Diversion? Blinding Surge? Light of Deliverance? --TimeToGetIntense 06:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Hammers and Scythes attack slower yes, however Scythes also attack up to 3 targets. Furthermore while Axes do indeed cause more damage, the maximum damage done is only 6 more, or 1 more than a spear. And spears gain attack skills I feel are more effective than Axe skills themselves. But that's besides the point, I was mainly focusing on Warrior-specific skills, And on the fact that I feel that Axe skills are not nearly effective enough overall. I myself am an axe Warrior, however I never use any Axe Mastery skills, except for perhaps Triple Chop and/or Cyclone Axe in PvE, Though again, I feel in many cases Hundred Blades is more effective, and since it's for PvE, you can also use Whirlwind Attack. 2 hits per target and 2 seconds less recharge means more vampiric/zealous/enchantment/stance effect triggers. However also, Spears are Ranged attacks. Any viable Axe build I have seen or designed has never really used Axe skills, because Strength Skills are far more useful to me. It's also always tweaked me how there's Dwarven Battle stance, Interruptions on Hammer hits... Shield Bash, Block, Knockdown, and Disable on Attack skill while wearing a Shield... And Ripostes/Deadly Ripostes, wich require Swords, Yet Axes have no such skills. All in all, the ONLY time Axes are more powerful, is when you're attacking a fleeing target. And only by a margin of 6 damage. Fighting 1 on 1? Hammer warriors have Knockdowns, stronger power, and more "Useful" skills. Swords have the infamous Ripostes. Axes are left with raw power. In most cases, This leaves you at a disadvantage. The higher damage from 11 or 12 axe mastery above, will only assist builds relying soley on Strength and Axe mastery, if you use Tactics Swords benifit you much more, From Ripostes, ect. And yes, I compared the two. Why? Because Axes have one interrupt, and it's adrenaline based. Disarm is the new, Adrenaline-based interrupt for swords. Furthermore, yes, it does disable them, if you can build the adrenaline before they use them. Savage Slash is energy based, and Aegis is usually an early-used skill, at the beginning of the battle, before you have the adrenaline to use it. Unlike Savage Slash and Distracting blow. Wich you can use as an Axe warrior, however it is unlinked.--Devvu

Actually, my statement on Ripostes, is that they are a useful non-Sword-mastery based Sword skill. As all Items a warrior can equip but Axes have skills in either Strength or Tactics that require the use of said weapon. I repeat, Shields, Hammers, and Swords, have skills that require that equipment, but not for Axes. That was kind of off-topic I suppose, But I still feel my statement stands. Sure, Axes deal 6 more damage than Swords, But that's no reason that Axe mastery skills need to be so much less potent.--Devvu

A critical hit is max damage times the square root of 2. This makes the void between Axe and Sword criticals pretty high. Also, you need to consider that you're getting +20% and +15% damage from a maxed, customized weapon. Here are the crits at 14 mastery: Axe: 59. Sword: 46. Axe is much stronger inherantly. Also, you seem to underestimate the value of unconditional Deep Wounds. You're a PvE player, though, right? In PvE, I'd definetly go with Sword as well because you can use Dragon Slash and most of the time there won't be anything to break your adrenaline loop. In PvP, Axe is very strong because it is so inherantly strong, so you can pack a lot of offensive utility on your bar. Also, Sword needs two skills to inflict a Deep Wound. Until Crippling Slash, Axe really had the advantage in PvP. Dragon Slash had some hype for a bit, but only breifly. --TimeToGetIntense 06:59, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, I suppose you could say I'm not much of a PvP'er, seeing as I don't HA much, However I do RA fairly often, and AB constantly. And in my experience, I see Sword Warriors far more than Axe Warriors. I myself use an Axe, for the very same reason you stated, that it deals more damage. However, I don't use any Axe Mastery skills. Only Strength skills, as Axe skills aren't all that useful in my opinion, I just feel that aside from Dismember, they're sort of... Blah. Not all that great. Why should I use any Axe skills, When if I would, Swordsmanship would fill the bill easier. And perhaps I do underestimate the power of a deep wound. I know it's deadly when applied at low health, or at any time, Honestly, Cutting off health as well as healing. However... Deep wound is the only non-conditional condition axes can deliver. Any other conditions require Deep Wound in the first place, save for Swift Chop, And I don't see anyone in their right mind bringing Swift Chop. --Devvu

AB is more about killing NPCs than killing other players. I don't think it's a good place to judge the balance of the game in any respect. GvG is the format that the game is balanced around. Axe Warriors had always been the strongest Melee characters in GvG until recently, but they are still among the best options for a balanced GvG team. --TimeToGetIntense 07:24, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

You're underestimating Deep Wound because you're not in a position to watch its effects. In unloading an Eviscerate+Exceutioner's Strike+Agonizing Chop/Critical Chop combo, the only way to save your target is to either remove the condition (to get them back 100 health + RCs heal) and/or Infuse Health (which is now healing 20% less). This is assuming that the monks actually get the spells off. The difference in damage as pointed out above can be the difference in killing the target and leaving them at critical health, to be saved by Monks or defensive support. --Kale Ironfist 07:29, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree with you on that aspect of AB. I've never liked the mentality people get into, "Cap, avoid fighting, and cap more" It's called "Alliance BATTLE" not "Capture the flag".. You're supposed to fight. And without fighting, It's merely a race to capture as fast as you can, mainly resulting in a draw, and all in all, extremely boring. You Cap to get points yes, But you also KILL in order to prevent your foes from capping as well. I find it utterly and completely pathetic to watch enemy groups run right past eachother to take over eachother's shrines, and feel that NOT to be the way to go about things. When I win, I want it to be because I defeated my enemies, pushed them back, took over their shrines, and kept them at bay. Not merely avoiding them and capturing faster than they do. Certainly, you should avoid overpowered groups, or "Mobs" but then again, you should never enter a fight you cannot win. But that's besides the point. And yes, I myself use an Axe Warrior, I love my axes and Dislike using Swords, However I don't use any Axe skills, only Strength, as I've said before. I'd prefer more viable Axe skills, because I don't feel that they're usable compared to Power Attack, Bull's Strike, Counterattack... Yes, I prefer energy skills over adrenaline, but when I do on occasion use adrenaline-based builds, I find Swordsmanship to be a much more Viable solution. I don't have a single Warrior build that uses any Axe Mastery skills other than Triple Chop, Cyclone Axe, or Dismember, on occasion... But fine, Perhaps I haven't thought out Adrenal Axe builds more thoroughly, However Gash+sun&moon slash+final thrust is also a potent combinaion.--Devvu

(resetting indent) Try using more Adrenaline skills, and using an increased attack speed skill. You'll be surprised at the power of axes. --Kale Ironfist 07:45, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind, I'll just drop the subject completely. I don't really care, I mainly use axes anyway. I have 14 different axes and 1 sword. Though I rarely, if ever, use axe attack skills because I feel strength skills are more effective. That's all.--Devvu

I think Izzy/wiki admins need to realize that ridiculous comments like this entire discussion on Axe Mastery (along with many other absurd skill change requests on this site) are often pushing this discussion towards the least common denominator of intelligence. How can the more thoughtful players and analysis be expected to participate here, when the mob of stupidity is flooding this site and there are zero intelligent admins cleaning this nonsense up?--Black mischief 14:26, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

You'll really need at some point to understand that adrenaline is required for warriors to maintain pressure. I can't see how a build with Bull's Strike + Power Strike + Frenzy (although since you seem more PvEish and PvEish arenas you might not use that) would have the energy to do anything after 10 seconds into the fight. Having an IAS to build adrenaline fast, and potentially an extra adrenaline builder like Enraging Charge, can make you charge your adrenaline really fast to use attack skills over and over without actually running into any energy problem even if the fight is very long (which might not happen so much in AB and RA since you get usually short fights with long breaks between there, but in organized PvP you'll have big fights that can last very long and you need to keep the pressure going for a long time. Too many energy skills on warrior don't actually allow that). Sword is likely the best weapon for condition/damage pressure, but Axe is the best to spike (those big crits make a difference on spike, and Eviscerate-Executioner's-Agonizing is a more powerful and faster spike than more or less any 3 attacks a sword can do, unless you don't count your bleeding skill but that's not realistic when there's actually monks and midliners removing bleed) while Hammer has kd advantage at the cost of a shield. And seriously don't judge how many sword or axe warrior there is from RA and AB. Those 2 places are populated by more PvE-geared players than PvP-geared players, and sword has PvE advantages with the Ripostes, etc. that lose all their appeal on warriors in organized PvP where no warrior actually carries a self-defense skill out of Heal Sig sometimes and an occasional Mending Touch if they plan to go out of monks range a lot. But the most common GvG warrior by far is an Axe warrior with Eviscerate, Executioner's Strike, Shock, Bull's Strike, Frenzy, Rush, utility (Heal Sig, Agonizing Chop, DBlow, Conjure Lightning, etc.), Rez Sig. Try to play with this build around in PvP to see what it's like to run a truly PvP-geared Axe warrior. An easiest one to use that's also pretty good in PvP but depends on a monk since you can't really fit a self-heal would be Battle Rage, Dismember, Executioner's Strike, Agonizing Chop, Disrupting Chop/Bull's Strike, Protector's Strike, Enraging Charge, Rez Sig. With this build you'll see what it means to be able to use attack skills at will, i.e. every single attack if you use Prot Strike on recharge. Patccmoi 13:31, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Use a Zealous axe mod for better results if you run the bar above. --Miranzor 17:02, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Knee Cutter has a 1 second recharge, the adrenaline gain won't count towards itself. Thus: Knee Cutter used: 0 adrenaline in its pool. Dragon Slash used: 6 adrenaline in its pool. And I'm not sure why you seem to care about axes having one skill to cause bleeding, is a whole 6 extra damage a second that will be pulled from an RC that big a deal to you? I can say with confidence that if Gash didn't require bleeding to inflict a Deep Wound you would never have seen any warriors with Sever Artery. And you say the only thing axes have going for them is extra damage on criticals? It's more like the extra damage on criticals, their spike potential, and unconditional deep wound. I would highly suggest jumping into observing mode and watching as half the opponent's health bar dropped from a spike as describe by Patccmoi. --Racthoh 17:02, 24 July 2007 (UTC) tl;dr I remember by former guild mates pondering why would anyone even consider using anything else than an axe. I guess it's personal preference. - IH 18:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

TL;DR--TheLordOfBlah 04:31, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

He said swords have better DPS, better damage from skills, and more utility and everyone was like "WTF!!?". Anyhow, Axes=on demand Deep Wound, more DPS, better spiking, higher crits. Swords=worse damage, worse pressure, worse spiking. Case closed. —ǥȓɩηɔɧ〚₮/ḉ〛 08:41, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

It's easy to make that mistake if you're not familiar with how critical hits work. -- Gordon Ecker 03:55, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I meant that they have higher critical hit damage 28 x sqr rt of 2 is higher than 22 x sqr rt of 2. At higher weapon mastery levels, they deal more dps. —ǥȓɩηɔɧ〚₮/ḉ〛 01:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I know, by "it's easy to make that mistake" I meant "it's easy to make the incorrect assumption that swords have better DPS". -- Gordon Ecker 01:32, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

---

Why is this section still here? Just because most people use sword doesn't mean anything. Logical line,

- Newbies/PvErs play AB more than other game types

- Newbies/PvErs like sword because it looks cool

- Newbies/PvErs are usually oblivious to math

- Good players ragequit with a sword warrior in their team in any of random arenas (unless CSlash+Conjure)

- Some people learn much slower about game mechanics or don't learn at all.

Conclusion - Sword is used because of coolness factor, and because newbie/PvEr is unaware of the inferiority of sword compared to axe or hammer in RA for instance, and if you try to explain it to em they reply with "stfu noob" or "sword sucks? tell that to those i've killed".

Observation - Based on my vast experience in RA, especially when I was monking, sword is a joke. I find wanding more dreadful, and when sword warrior is in enemy team I totally ignore him, really, i dont even notice he exists. Pet attacks are 2x as dangerous. IW is more dangerous. When there's a sword warrior in my RA team I usually ragequit. Sometimes I bother asking what elite he uses and if he's CSlash I stay.

Logical fallacy of this whole section - Argumentum ad populum - "more people use sword so sword is better". How bout "more people use Mending so it's better than Warmonger's Weapon". Servant of Kali 14:30, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Probably should be archived along with many of the other discussions. --TimeToGetIntense 22:45, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Sooo, what Kali is saying is that we shoulnd't be talking about Axemastery, cause its fine. What we should be talking about is Swordmastery, since it obviously sucks so bad its worth ragequitting over? (Also, I use swords myself, link me to something that shows axe's are better and I'll gladly change, I always thought it doesn't make much difference... Yes... I PvE more >.>)

There's as much logical fallacy in what you're saying Kali... 'i see bad sword warriors in RA and thus sword is inferior to axe and hammer there'. It really reads like 'only newbs run swords except Cripslash' which is just as wrong. Hell yesterday i saw rank 10 guild running a Dragon Slash warrior, i guess they just didn't know an Axe would've been better for the build right? Swords have their strong points, in fact it's likely the best pressure weapon (and if there's one place where pressure kills, it's in RA too!), while Axe has its strong points too which is mostly spike and having room for more utility (interrupts, 2 kds, etc.). This whole weapon A > weapon B thing is ridiculous. They're all better at something in particular, it just depends what your goal for this warrior is Patccmoi 14:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

You saw rank10 guild running Dragon Slash... where? In RA? And what did he do? BTW you're wrong about pressure in RA, sword=pressure is inferior to axe=spike in RA. If enemy team has a decent monk, good luck pressuring with sword warrior. Your best bet is a quick spike (deep wound included) with an axe, or interrupt/kd with a hammer (deep wound included). This is based on 2 years of RAing (I have almost 300 glad points btw). Now, tell me how exactly is sword/pressure good in RA? What exactly will you pressure? How? RA battles don't last 5min. Sure, occasionally you're gonna run into a bit longer battle which is OK, but one battle is not worth the build. In short, I am claiming exactly that, sword is inferior to other warrior weapons in Random Arena, especially hammer. A chain knockdown is infinitely more useful in RA than a sword, because RA teams usually have 1 monk if any, and there is no second monk to help the other one; if monk is down, he's pretty much dead. All you need to do is build adren that's it. And what will sword do? - constantly do xy amount of predictable damage with an occasional Final Trust. Whenever there's a monk in my team, I never notice it's tought with a sword warrior in enemy team. But when there's a hammer for instance, my monks die quite often (unless there's blind or something). You can say that observations of majority don't prove anything, but I named other points too and this supports it. Servant of Kali 22:51, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Servant, though I think he's being a bit harsh. Sword is really not very scary because the damage is so mediocre and consistant. Final Thrust kind of redeems Sword, though, and of course you can go Conjure + Sun and Moon Slash for easymode melee. I don't think Cripslash is absolutely necessary to be effective with Sword in 4v4. Dragon Slash and Charging Strike are decent options. Cripslash is better of course, but I think it's pretty harsh to rage RA over people's builds not being 100% optimum. --TimeToGetIntense 22:01, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

One reason for ragequitting RA because of a sword is that you may run into 1% of sword warriors who are any decent. The others are mostly PvE players with PvE weapons and ... quite honestly, each time I wait and see what they'll do, I get shocked over and over again. With hammers for instance, it's much much better ratio. Don't forget, RA is all about chances. It's not GvG that you slowly climb your way up. You either do 10 wins, or you don't :) Servant of Kali 22:51, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Wow, I read this crap about swords and just... wow. Warriors kill people, period. If you can't kill people effectively with a sword you're an idiot. If you ragequit RA just because you see a sword warrior, you're a total fucking idiot. --85.25.141.60 19:00, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Wanding can kill people too, so what's your point? People like you are the reason why I'm all for not allowing access to wiki for unregistered users. At least Pattcmoi can make a normal post explaining his own view, unlike you whose posts can be summed in "swords can kill and wanding can kill; you're an idiot and my dad is stronger than your dad.. now, how do i register in this wiki im not that competent but hey i can still kill you with my sword". Servant of Kali 09:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

RA pros like you are the reason I laugh out loud when I read this wiki. You don't understand how the game is designed or how it's played in 8v8. There's a reason you see sword warriors in 8v8, they're just as good as axe or hammer warriors when used well. If you can't use sword, axe, bow, scythe, daggers, or hammer well that doesn't make it broken, it makes you a fucking idiot. --166.61.231.56 06:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

You should really read the whole thread before calling someone an idiot or RA noob. Im sick and tired of anonymous parachuters insulting people and posting non sequitur comments. The fact that game is balanced for 8v8 doesn't mean it's balanced in 4v4, so if game discussion turns that way for a tiny bit, you should either follow it or stfu ok? Oh, and one of the reasons why sword was used more before was because of spike. If you have axe+sword it's better than axe+axe, at least that's how they taught me. Besides, 8v8 is more about pressure as well than 4v4, which is why sword works better there. Now, you can say "oh but 4v4 is irrelevant im 8v8 pro", that you're ******* ******** then because you missed the whole point of last few posts. Now go away and chant yourself how smart you are and how you're superior because you play 8v8 more than 4v4 and how that makes all 4v4 discussions stupid. I play both GvG and RA/TA, but I'm sick and tired of people like you who think they're some kind of superior race because they don't play 4v4, and when some of us do play 4v4 we are what, your slaves and should bow to you. Sick, and it disgusts me. Servant of Kali 09:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I get glad points with my PEW PEW LASERS conjure cripslash bar. --195.71.90.10 09:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Can we just delete this eyesore of a section please? There is nothing more to say.--71.251.177.24 06:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I lol@nubs. Readem Promote My Ban Here 05:48, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think I see anyone here substantiating their claims with data, yeah, this is a joke of a section. All I see in the first post is a wonky comparison of dissimilar skills, him saying axes only have XYZ without really showing if XYZ is bad like the comment "As there are only 4 Axe skills that cause deep wounds."

Archive please--Atlas Oranos 17:34, 17 September 2007 (UTC).

Agreed, this discussion was settled long ago. -- Gordon Ecker 03:20, 18 September 2007 (UTC)