ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Assassin/Assassin chains

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Armond's discussion

Ok, really, just throwing this out there. Feedback please, it's quite likely I'm missing something. -- Armond Warblade 02:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, well.. Sins will be worthless with this nerf. Halogod35 02:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Sins are already worthless. There are only 2 viable sin builds out there now, and one of them uses a scythe.

IMO adding offhands requiring hexes/enchantments instead of leads was a bad idea, and it made assassin combos less predictable. Assassins are already a weak class with very little utility, forcing them to bring a somewhat specific set of skills in order to be half-decent is the reason people don't use them in high level play.

In short, I do agree that all assassin combos should start with a lead, Armond extends that into knockdowns.

IMO all the new professions need to be redone because they're all terribly balanced and most of them play even worse. 72.235.48.41 07:40, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

That was me. ~Shard (talk) 07:41, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Armond, nice idea. I'm against completely annihilating offhand first combos, but I agree that they need to stop being the mainstream ones. I'd actually leave BSS at 10 energy and up GPS to the same energy (pvp only)- that way, they're viable, but energy is killer on them. I intend to make a list of potential changes to assassin skills, and finding ways to give bonuses for shorter combos/L-O-D combos is at the top of my list of things to do. I just need to figure out how to create the page for it on my user page (still don't have the hang of everything). Now, to Shard's comment about making combos less predictable- Why on earth is unpredictability bad?

Also, I love the pve buff- I'd thoroughly enjoy doing that, though it's doable in normal mode anyway. --Kalas Silvern 00:45, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Unpredictable instagib spikes are decidedly worse than predictable instagib spikes, is what he meant. -- Armond Warblade 04:36, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok. That I can agree with. Hence my reason for saying don't annihilate them- just make them not so instagib. Finding a way to prevent IAS (I like making all shadowsteps stances myself) would help that imo, what do you think? --Kalas Silvern 11:33, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

In PvE, ramp up Assassin damage a relatively insane amount. It makes Assassins strong in PvE, and it makes assassin enemies a PAY ATTENTION TO THIS NOW thing like they're supposed to be. In PvP, ramp their damage down to the level of spike support - a level where three assassins are needed to kill something (maybe less if you're smart and bring HOTO on one guy but Falling skills on both), but the assassin can jump in in the middle of the party's spike and finish the guy off. -- Armond Warblade 18:55, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

You said spike support, not spike finisher. Anyway, instagib sins are bad in pvp, most people would run shattering. --Lann 19:28, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Er, it's the same thing. -- Armond Warblade 21:41, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Bring down the assassin's damage to make it that you need 3? assassins to kill 1 character? Wouldn't you need to rename the profession to something like "melee profession that requires 3 to kill another character"? I mean I understand lowering it to 2, but 3? Well, it is does take 2 assassins to kill a npc in gvg nowadays since the rit is always there protecting the archers.(oh and, damn then 123456 spikes, we all hate them but sins are kinda forced to use them if they use daggers) Prokiller88 04:53, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

...Thanks? -- Armond Warblade 15:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, he does have a point- they'll never be taken if they can only support a spike and not pressure. After all, warriors for instance do both with the same skills... to compete, sins need to be able to do so (reasonably) with a single bar, while having utility. And Prokiller's other point- the 123456 spike is also good... maybe they should think about more combo breaks like Moebius, but less efficient and not elite (repeating strike is another decent example- offhand requiring offhand, maybe some leads requiring duals, etc.) --Kalas Silvern 18:57, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

The point is, you're not supposed to be bringing three assassins. You're supposed to bring two at most - either one for stand support, or two for ganking (two sins can still kill an NPC) - and their lack of damage compared to the warrior is mitigated by the fact that they can warp around the battlefield not being killed. A sin or two ought be able to jump on a guy that's already wounded and take him out, but they shouldn't be able to do that on a guy already at full health - that's just broken. Assassins were designed from the start to be a fragile "jump in, spike, jump out" class, but it doesn't matter how fragile they are when they shadow step completely out of range of all your spells and abilities, making them super strong spiking machines. One assassin should not be able to do a spike the equal of a spike done by an entire balanced team all at once - but each individual of the balanced team can contribute in their own way to the spike (mesmers with shutdown, eles with lorb or some such - spike support in its element - rangers with burning arrow, savage shot, and/or sloth hunter's, physicals with the pure damage that makes up most of the spike). If an assassin can do as much raw physical damage on the spike as two or three warriors/dervishes/paragons, what's the point of bringing other physicals? All you have to do to keep them from killing you is spike down their midline every few seconds. Currently it's not that bad, but it's inching towards it.

I guess, in short, I mean that the assassin should only be able to do as much physical damage as the warrior or dervish (both of which do too much as it is, but whatever). You don't send a single warrior to gank NPCs, nor do you expect him to solo-spike enemy monks and mesmers - why should you expect the assassin to? -- Armond Warblade 20:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Alright. Once again, I fail to clarify what I'm thinking. I'll use AB as an example. There, you need to be able to take out another player. Dervs and wars do fine at it... but they have shorter recharges in general, as well as better defenses for the time they're building up adrenaline (wars). So, spike support would be fine- as long as recharges are changed to match, so that you can hit and run, instead of hit and leave for a while. In short, I actually like the idea, but sins would need recharge adjustments to 9/10 skills, as well as more Shadow Walk style shadowsteps to pull off a hit and run strat. And I agree with the idea of not having pure ____ frontlines- I'd love to see more variation.--Kalas Silvern 03:24, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

tl;dr in AB you're supposed to run AoD shock sin, SP sin, and that iron palm/entangling asp/etc deadly arts sin with a WoH prot monk. -- Armond Warblade 03:50, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Instagib spikes, basically, which is what you were saying you wanted to get rid of. For a tl;dr version, it's if we lower overall power and make it difficult to instagib, then we need to lower recharges to fit the non-instagib play. --Kalas Silvern 03:01, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Falling shocker is pretty far from instagib, actually. But my (off-topic) point there was in AB, at least one of those three spikes ought to be enough to instakill anyone you meet (as few AB players take even such simple precautions as bringing survivor runes and fortitude mods). -- Armond Warblade 05:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I do take that precaution, but you do have a point. To be honest, I'd prefer being able to fight and not need to instagib while retaining some semblance of assassin mobility over instagibbing. It would reduce the number of idiot sins (ideally), and make good ones more obvious. I'm mainly aiming at SP like instagibs- they just aren't fun. --Kalas Silvern 09:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Moved talk

Armond, I don't quite see how an Assassin chain would be faster if it required an extra attack skill in it, eg. L-O-D-O-D is always faster than O-D-O-D, or it least it was for the most part. Can you please give me an example using your suggestion so i'll get it. Thanx. ArisB24.205.38.234 06:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

What I meant to say was that L-O-D would be faster than O-D-O-D, and this would encourage L-O-D. Sorry if that wasn't clear. -- Armond Warblade 19:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

But generally, Leads are not as damaging and will not create the same damage potentials as O-D-O-D do, since Duals all have inherent double strike. Would you plan on wanting small buffs to award enough damage to make L-O-D a viable alternative? If you did not buff them, I think you would weaken Dagger Assassins more so than they are in their current state. IDK maybe I'm not thinking outside the box and it's me, but it seems that way to me. Wouldn't a better idea be to award small buffs to certain Leads anyway, so that Assassins have more choices in how they want to stack chains up? That would increase the number of options and truly encourage L-O-D like your goal is, instead of making L-O-D almost the only option. The other thing I see if we took your idea to fruition is that Golden Phoenix Strike would require an Enchant to not fail and award +29, while Wild Strike would deal +33, be unblockable, remove a Stance, cost the same amount, and have half of the recharge. So please clear all this up for me dude, I got no doubt it may create a new landscape for Sins. ArisB24.205.38.234 23:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Read it again. The answer is "yes to all". The idea is to not, however, to encourage L-O-D, but to force L-O-D (as that's... more realistic anyway) and encourage utility. -- Armond Warblade 19:37, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Wow Armond, at first I thought you were a big meanie who wanted to nerf Assassins because you didn't like them like alot of other people, but your actually making a buff for them. IDK your suggestion is pretty complicated to be removing every conditional Off-Hand, but that's cool dude if we'll really be able to actually kill stuff in PvP./agree.ArisB24.205.38.234 04:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't like classes designed around instakilling another dude and warping around the battlefield while doing so, but I'm fine with spike support. -- Armond Warblade 05:17, 11 June 2008 (UTC)