Feedback:User/Dark Morphon/Offensive Shadow Steps/Archive

Those 2 skills would be perfect with change like that at least i think so. Raemon 17:47, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Shadow Walk has a 1 second disable to act as an aftercast, to prevent instant un-prot-able spikes -Talamare- feedback 22:01, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

If I remove the aftercasts (and I intend to) Shadow Walk has only 1/4 cast time over regular Shadow Steps, while it also doesn't allow you to use a Stance or Enchantment and provides you with a way out. I think the ups and downs balance each other out. Remember I have made it impossible to use these skills on secondairies. Dark Morphon 11:01, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

While secondary abuse is a big problem when it comes to shadowsteps (see Eurospike), assassin's abusing shadowsteps is also a big problem, especially on a split, as I keep repeating myself. Shadowsteps need to come with a warning label because skills like Shadow Walk, Death's Charge, AoD etc. are all skills that undermine the critical game balance factor that is postioning. -- NUKLEAR IIV 18:36, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Nuklear beat me to what I was gonna say. Making them fail with critical strikes solves nothing. ~Shard 22:36, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

What about in addition to limiting shadow steps to A/x, change them to a 66% or 75% speed buff where you jump/leap toward a target, but essentially functions the same way. Thereby providing a visual indicator & time to react to a shadow step. I feel this is an important skill for Assassins, that if it & other skills were balanced properly, the class would play more like it should. ín§ídíou§⁴²⁰ 13:54, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Shadow prison is still the best shadow step nowadays. I dont think that tiny aftercast really cause us unable to spike.--Tea Cat ._. 14:41, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Ehh, no. Shadow Prison is crap now that you can pack Shadow Fang and save your elite for palm.

Also, Shadowsteps need to be risky. As long as you can just press a button and zap around the battlefield, they will ignore postioning and fuck up balance. My one year old suggestion still stands - 25% sacrifice for every shadowstep. -- NUKLEAR IIV 15:16, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

That's an option, but I think letting Assassins have inferior self-heals and/or max health should be enough to put pressure on them. Assassins need a niche to perform well in or otherwise they will just never be used. If they are balanced around having instant movement, it should be possible to do such a thing. Dark Morphon 16:10, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

That's the crux of the issue right there. They were balanced around instant movement and instant movement is borked, fundementaly. That's why assassins were always a thorn on the side of Izzy. -- NUKLEAR IIV 17:50, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Explain to me why instant movement is always borked. Dark Morphon 10:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Short version: Because it kills positioning.

Long version: ... I'll explain tomorrow. -- NUKLEAR IIV 21:20, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Shadow prison is fine It's not underpowered now, ok? Just due to some pathetic OP touch makes it look not good enough. . 66% snare + offensive step, what do you ask more?--Tea Cat ._. 08:43, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

So, do Spells in general kill positioning as well? Most of them don't require you to come near your opponent as opposed to melee range attacks Warriors tend to have. Dark Morphon 11:45, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I said I'd explain, and that's a good place to start as any.

No, ranged spells do not kill positioning. Simply put, you can't kill anything with spells alone (before you say but lol SF!!!, let me remind you how borked that is). Things like Lorb exist only to support spikes, which is what kills people.

And spikes come from melee professions. Why is that? Well, simply put, because they reliably cause DW. In order to get the most out of your, say, Shock Axe, you need to be able to defeat the positioning of the other team. Snares, wards, blinds, hexes, they all play a role in that, but the main idea is to get your warrior to hack off someone's limb. When he does that, your team can get a kill. Why is positioning such a critical factor? Well, becuase spiking frontliners is usually a waste of energy and not very efficient. You want to go for the midline squishies and the backline monks. To do that, you need to either overextend (which is not always possible/dangerous) or get close enough to spike within the range of your backline. If you don't, you can't get blind and cripple drawn, you can't get hexes denied, and when you frenzy, you will get raped. It's a very elegant balance: stay close enough to matter, but far enough to be safe. It's not something every JoeTheNoob can do. It's very active, a very skill-intesne from of defense that is crucial for survival.

Do we have that down pat? That part is critical for the next bit: Shadowsteps.

Remember Eurospike? The frontliners all had SP, back when it was supercharged (still is, tbh) and used to instantly counter the postioning of the other team. There were many things broken about Eurospike, but one of which was it's total disregard of enemy positioning. You SP'ed, zapped to the very backline, dismember - exe, dead monk. Of course, you had one hell of a spike assist, but again, you can't kill anything with spells alone in a balanced GW. You can't - and should not be able to, because then we get spikey 6ele gimmicks. In order to get kills, you have to get a warrior to smack someone's face in. That's it. That's the only way GW was ever balanced, and ever will be balanced by my book.

Shadowsteps take away that balance. They revoke the skill of more experienced players by ignoring a hard-earned ability: Positioning. -- NUKLEAR IIV 16:17, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

You say Spells are not problematic because they cannot kill on their own in balanced set-ups. I agree and that's exactly what I think should be done to Assassins. They should only be able to support in spikes, not be as effective as Warriors at it on their own. To compensate, Assassins get to have the best mobility in the game and the ability to zip to an opponent. That way, they can do what spellcasters can do but instead of using Spells, they use Daggers which can be blocked/blinded. Like that scenario? Dark Morphon 10:58, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Positioning should only be successfully overrided by pure assassin primaries, not secondaries. Assassin primaries have very little armor but very high killing power [which is the very nature of, well.. an ASSASSIN]. What prey tell is the job of an assassin? Hop in, take down an opponent, hop back out! It's what they do best, and they should be rewarded for doing so! Not punished or discouraged [as what Izzy did to assassins as a whole, basically]. Now, assassins are a teeny weeny lil tree shrub compared to the colossal titanic trunk of a warrior! Warriors far outweigh assassins with armor and damage. Assassins have no way of going in and doing their job because Anet made it so that monks look at an SP'd sin, stretch, yawn, scratch their ass, activate a block stance and "LMFAOROFLCOPTERSAHAHAHABBQUFAILED" because Anet catered to bad players as a whole. To be continued... --Ulterion 04:38, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't like the "high killing 123456 combo's" Assassins have. That's absolutely not the way I want to balance them. Dark Morphon 10:58, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Says casual, inactive player. From your comment I'm also able to derive that you're pretty bad at the game. Anet already destroyed assassins for you. I'm guessing your next target's Mending? Double upkeep cost, reduce regen to +0...2 and make it cost 25e. MENDING in PvP.... TO-... STRONG!! Against me! >.< /endsarcasm --Ulterion 14:03, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

What are you on about? O_o. Dark Morphon 14:25, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

@ morphon - fine, that's a fine goal. But to fo that, you have to remove any means of Deep Wound from assassins. Not just assassin only skills, but cross-class stuff too, like Pious and Dismember. The crux of the issue is very simple - no DW and Shadowstep on the same bar, period. Once that's done, we can deal with the issues with splits (which, I think, a 25% sacrifice is the way to).

Are you willing to do that? That's the question. Or, are you willing to bet that the designers will be willing to do that? -- NUKLEAR IIV 15:01, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

This goes from the assumption that Deep Wound by default is mandatory for spikes and that being able to inflict Deep Wound automatically means you are going to use it to spike. I don't completely agree with that. I also think being able to reliably inflict Deep Wound is only spikey when it means you are going to do quite some damage after it fast, solo. If Assassins deal worse damage than Warriors in a short time on spikes then being able to inflict Deep Wound shouldn't be a problem as it is still not quite as strong spike-wise. Twisting Fangs for example inflicts Deep Wound but only after you used Golden Phoenix Strike, Black Spider Strike or Falling Spider. This gives away the spike, something that you generally can't afford. Imo disabling the access to an IAS should be enough to keep Assassins in line as they simply would become too predictable. Dark Morphon 15:23, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

There are no legitimate spikes that don't involve a Deep Wound. You don't have to take my word for it, just remember the past builds. The only two spikes in the history of GW that lacked a DW was... let's see... The Smiteball (which was lolgimmick), the SF spike (but not the version ttgr ran - they had augry), the hypochondria spike (which was due to an exploit) and... yeah, you guessed it, other exploitive shit like Exhauting assault and Signet of Ghostly Might.

You can usually tell when a spike is coming. The warrior spends a few whacks on a target, preferrably a midliner, and then breaks off and begins hacking at something else, with frenzy lights everywhere and and eviscerate. That's why we sued to pack Gale and Shock (and blackout, don't forget blackout) - not to kill with the suprise (you can't suprise a good team) but to kill with shutdown during the spike. -- NUKLEAR IIV 15:36, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree with nuclear as far as spike = Deep wound + shutdown goes.But not giving sins DW is retarded.They just need it.Balance sins around shadowsteps and only give them shadowsteps but give them DW.Yes thre are possibilities.To start with don't allow a sin to instagib shit like hell.DW isn't the cause lol chains is.And while you might say that SP+ DW on the sin + Spike assist could be overpowered I don't think it is because it would mean your assassin either isn't balanced and still has pressure or has no pressure at all.What I'm saying is let sins have Dw,Create a mobility class.Sins never were this much of a problem till nightfall anyway Lilondra *poke* 07:34, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

[1] <-- I think the Assassin build ran here illustrates best what I want to balance them around. Dark Morphon 07:43, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Excellent example, that is a perfectly balanced sin build - owait, is that AoD Sheep is running?

AoD is a different beast entirely. At factions, assassins weren't used to kill stuff on the stand - they just killed stuff the the split. That sin build is a fucking monster - the only way to stop that kind of split is sending three people to deal with it - and soemtimes even that's not enough. The falling shocker could take anyone on one on one, and when it couldn't, it just ran away - cancel AoD and you're half a map away. It could dance around the archers with impunity - laugh at Cripshots, because the cripshot has nothing on AoD. WHen NF came out, though, we got some pretty awesome split stuff, and runners could begin to withstand the powe of a single splitting assassin - and so they devolved back into "lolIspikeyou1234" from the "lolsplitofdeath." Take it from someone who has played it and against it, the latter is no better than the former. So yes, they were a problem before NF - you can overlook Sp and the ridculous 2 dual chains when you remember half your base and all your guards wiped out in less than 5 minutes - inevitably. AoD is a beast, and it is broken, it's just that it's not used because the meta can laugh at splitting. Nerf Assassin damage, increase utility and buff up Shadow Arts and I guarantee you it will be AoD that spearheads the Sin charge. I didn't want to get into that issue (Still a little tender about it) because it's a different issue. But don't think sins weren't a problem before NF.

GW never cared about big numbers, we always had Prot Spirit to laugh it off. With eles, you take one good look at a spiker bar (say, an air spiker bar) and you think, "damn, that's 3 150 damage spells there". But in reality, a bar like that is mediocre because of prot. That's why Proph spikes were so easy to beat - they lacked a DW (no ranged DW's back then - yeah, funny how that works) and prot just laughed in their fucking faces. So, yes, assassins do need DW - without DW, they have no purpose, no one will care to run any chain, so long as it lacks DW. It doesn't matter if it does 400+ damage, as long as I can prot it, I don't sweat about in in GvG (though that's GvG - TA and RA are different issues). But that does mean that Shadowsteps need to be off of bars with DW - you should have absolutely no means of infclicting DW at range, period. That's what shadowsteps do, basically. They carry your melee Dw to Melee range.

Now, either you limit shadowsteps to bars without DW (Eh, pretty artificial) or you make Shadowsteps cost something - again, sounding like a broken record here, but a 25% sac everytime you step. Kills AoD (or, makes it bearable), stops gay sin's and shadowsteps become the next frenzy - gives a huge advantage, but one orb will send you to the other side. -- NUKLEAR IIV 11:08, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and just for more proof, just look at the build Wm E Jang is running - Shadowstep, DW, and KD all rolled in one. That's a pretty nasty combo right then and there. -- NUKLEAR IIV 11:09, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I think morphon was referring to 1 shadowstep 2 attack skills rest utility and not to AoD in general Lilondra *poke* 11:25, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I know, but you know my soft spot for AoD. -- NUKLEAR IIV 11:26, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

You know I agree with most of what you said but I like AoD despite it anyway.I'm guessing everyone has a OP skill that despite being so broken as fuck they'd want back.Anyway my proposal is : limit shadowsteps to sins,Give them DW,Buff mobility (nuke AoD if needed),and make sure they are limited to X attacks and X damage at most.You cannot limit shadowsteps without killing them so if you want them to be balanced/viable you have to limit what comes after them.But removing DW = Removing sins Lilondra *poke* 11:29, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:Lilondra/Gamebalance/Assassin btw Although I'm pretty sure the chains would deal to much damage its just the idea that matters.Also note that sins got indirectly nerfed already.Eq got buffed quite alot Lilondra *poke* 11:32, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

That's still a ranged DW. That's what's broken. I want to be able to smash a sin's face in when he ports in - like an overextended warrior. When a warrior forgets to cancel his frenzy, he is punished with an orb. His team is punished with an orb, his monks are punished with a 300 redbarring problem.

When a sin shadowsteps, he takes no risk. If he takes something like shadow walk, that's even safer. We should be able to pun'sh sins that step onto our midlines like we do with overextenders - but ANet's policy of spike in and spike out isn't working. That's why I've been groping for a 25% sac - you can easiliy collapse on any idiot (be it a sin or warrior) with only 75% health. That's what I'm driving at here - Sins having shadowsteps is fine, sins having mobility is fine, sins being able to spike - all fine, but only if it costs something, comes with some sort of risk. Right now it's completely free and simple for an assassin to spike without getting raped. That needs to change. -- NUKLEAR IIV 11:37, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

But tbh any decent sin build that isn't broken as fuck also happens to have 0 pressure output and is alot easier to shut down.Like I stated on my Balance page there is nothing skillfull about Shadowstepping in and chaining I'm pretty sure you can only force good tactics (at most) with the design.Lilondra *poke* 11:42, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

A bit off-topic, but spiking and knocking stuff down is pressure in my book.

Going back to Shadowsteps, I still say a 25% sacrifice. -- NUKLEAR IIV 11:44, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Well my Idea was to make them half ranged (all of them) and to give sins a rune that doubles the range again but lowers health by a specific amount.Basicly being on stand would be gimping yourself to some degree.While I agree that warriors are alot easier to fuck up I don't think every class should have it.The warrior class has bull strike,While building adrenaline he is actually already dishing out a fair portion of damage.Sins just shadowstep in and if they don't kill well they are most of the time useless for X seconds (or they should be).Because I'm pretty sure using your daggers after that would result in taking more pressure (because you know YOU HAVE 70 ARMOR) then you can actually dish out. Lilondra *poke* 11:48, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Pressure is nice - but why pressure when you can kill? In a longer match, the team with greater pressure wins, yes, but assassins can spike more frequently than warriors - and more reliable, because of a monopoly of unblockable skills. Warriors do a good deal of pressure, but most of that can be easily negated with stuff like blind, hexes and whatnot. Assassins are much less vulnerable to that sort of stuff, and, at the end of the game, they end up doing more damage - more damage that counts. -- NUKLEAR IIV 11:52, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't know tbh.I'm pretty sure that if you bind Shadowstep + chain to ~25 seconds that won't happen.I'm also pretty sure that unblockable skills don't count since most of the time they are retarded.And tbh If sins did the most damage that counted peeps would have run them on every teambuild but they don't.I'm just saying that if you can find a point where they are rly powerfull but balanced on split and quite inferior to warrior on stand you've balanced sins.And 25 % sac is quite unelegant tbh. Lilondra *poke* 11:56, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Ow and pls don't count empathy,Bsurge and co since those skills shouldn't even Fucking exist Lilondra *poke* 11:57, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to count surge, but I would like to count guardian and flash.

Oh really? A warrior will spike every 20 ish seconds, but that's wihout melee hate. Get enough of it (especially hexes, i love my water hexes) and that number increases dramatically. Remember, you have to gain adrenaline to spkie, you can't do that if you can't hit stuff. Asssassins spike every 20 seconds - period. That's reliable. That's what counts.

One of the reasons why Assassins are less common than warriors in higher end PvP is because good players can still get more out of a warrior than an assassin - but that changes drastically when you go down the ladder. They are still fucking powerful in higher end, and do see use. -- NUKLEAR IIV 12:04, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

My point is you a) should balance sins assuming the rest is balanced aswell so no Bsurge and other faggot skills. and b) If sins can chain every 20 seconds and deal about what ? 400 ish damage + DW or including DW whatever looks the most balanced then ffs what will be their dps ? If you want to spike at stand I'm pretty confident a dervish is alot stronger.For splits sins will reign.Recently I've been trying to make some bars while assuming the skills take the function I would give them to see how it works.Now I didn't up sins to feedback because they aren't 100 % finished but this is what I came up with.Feel free to comment :

Lilondra *poke* 12:12, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Flash and Guardian are not faggot skills.

Again, why DPS when you can spikes - it's the spike that kills. Pressure is easy to migate these days -pot and other midline heals say hi - but spike damage taxes your backline. That's what kills. Now, I'm not saying that pressure is unimportant - quite opposite - but spikes matter more. In higher level play, pressure becomes more dominant because with more skill, spikes take less out of you.

Don't you dare bring the dervish into this. -- NUKLEAR IIV 12:37, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Right now spiking is alot easier yes (and yh by design it is) but atm is it balanced anyway ? I mean there is to much caster damage to start with.My whole point is that sins aren't rly that strong at stand anyway.Also I posted that bar so you could respond wether that bar (with the functions I would give them) was balanced or not Lilondra *poke* 12:45, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I haven't read that page yet, I'm afraid. When I do, I'll respond on the talkpage, okay, not here.

Back to shadowsteps, then. We are in agreement that there needs to be some sort of nerf, and it should be something that puts the user of shadowstep at risk? -- NUKLEAR IIV 12:51, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Well nerf isn't the right word tbh.Right now Shadowsteps are pretty dead (offensive one's) because of aftercast.So anything that makes them see play is a buff.Revamp yes.Risk I don't know really.I was more thinking in the lines of giving sins huge disadvantages if you don't make the right tactical decisions.Basicly My insignia system could force sins to have low health + low armor = easy spike targets.So I guess it would be risky Lilondra *poke* 12:53, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Spiking is fail if that's the only thing a bar can do. Even with Shadow Steps it's still fail. Splitting isn't what it used to be, there's only 3 points worth splitting too in maps now. Since splits are either retardedly easy to do or counter (one or the other depending on the map) the sin has no role, because casters are the effective split professions. Even with AoD a sin has nothing on recent caster builds. The sin has no role that it excels at (except a decent melee spike) and the dervish has the same problem. Give the crap professions something they can do well.~>Sins WDB 16:50, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Sin's were always awesome splitters, and they still are, but power creeep has dulled that ability quite a bit.

The Problem still remains though: Assassin's need an overhaul, because adjusting numbers won't work with them. WUBLEAR

VII 16:54, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

With only 3 worthwhile points to defend on a map, even with aura of displacement a sin with a dedicated spike bar will never be effective like it was when each npc was a worthwhile defense point. They were only good in dealing with low numbers of enemies and since two of the 3 points worth defending are the guild lord areas with many enemies and the other point is the flag stand where either everyone is or there is no one they don't really have anything. Map stepping sins can't gain any worthwhile advantage except maybe over a straggler player. ~>Sins WDB 18:10, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I think you don't even understand the basics of splitting.You don't run a dedicated split *just* to gain a build advantage.Or to gain a npc advantage.Those npc's happen to make retreating and pushing peeps out alot easier.Along with that having little to no npc's is just begging to lose because of lord damage.You split because you think you can get a advantage either at stand or at split,because the opponent might make a crucial mistake wich allows you to push or force morale.You split because you can force them to for example send 2-3 peeps back only to realise that your split is back at stand up to 20 seconds earlier.Thats quite a advantage.I guess splitting is all about confusion and making your opponents play your game but it certainly is *not* just the npc's.Yes assassins need a overhaul.They need to be pushed back to mobility and out of instagib.Lilondra *poke* 18:31, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I know the advantages of splitting, I know the concept. You fail to see my point, which is that splitting isn't what it used to be because it's not dire to keep as many npcs alive as possible anymore. The closer an npc is to the 3 main defense points on a map the more important they are, it used to be that nearly every npc was equally important. I'm simply pointing out the obvious change that occurred with the loss of VoD.~>Sins WDB 04:21, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I still believe any npc is a loss for their team and a gain for yours (faction yay!).As long as splitting forces your opponents to send back to either stall the split (and have powerplay at stand) or push out the split (and send a equal amount of peeps or more) a split will work.Yes the system atm sucks but it doesn't kill splitting.Also balance a class af if the everything around it was balanced.That includes Mechanics.IMO bring back VoD but tone it down and keep a clear eye Lilondra *poke* 04:39, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

How about adding a -40 armor while maintaining Aura of Displacement? Just wondering whether that might work here. Dark Morphon 14:03, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

That... Is a very good idea. NuVII 14:56, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

A problem I see with that is that people will just poof away right when they start taking damage. Still, that would have a frenzy-like effect. Dark Morphon 15:28, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

A problem I see is that you'll take to much damage from the npc's Lilondra *poke* 15:40, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Lol archers, right? You could cram a block skill on that bar no problem though. The idea is to make AoD sins killable, and if not, just removable. NuVII 19:40, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Removing a skill is easy,Balancing should be the goal imo.And a block skill would either be to much of a gimp or if any easy blockskills were given make the bar +- broken again.I love AoD and its design but its op so either you add a big drawback or you completely revamp the skill.Lilondra *poke* 19:53, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes I realise the stupidity factor of that post since -40 AL is a huge drawback.But it wouldn't fix it.Also I'm tired but I always am just not this tired I guess.I think if you wanna keep the design you need to nerf it indirectly.Slightly up recharge,cast time.Add for example degen that forces the sin to use his selfheal more often (now you can say a monk can go with him wich is true but that monk doesn't have AoD so I guess he'd be easier to catch).However a new funtion would be best.What about : Elite Spell.Shadowstep to target foe.For X seconds you move 25% faster. 5e 1/4th cast 20 recharge.Although that might be UP compared to other options.Lilondra *poke* 19:57, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

An -8 degen might be enough, though I have to work with numbers and experiemnt for that.

A two second cast... nah, because the archers can't interrupt it. By the time you sent a ranger back, the assassin will have already cast his anchor.

Your version also works, because lol cripple. Tbh, I don't want to kill it, but it's functionality makes it difficult. a 15 energy cost and a 30 second recharge might be a little better. NuVII 20:12, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

BTW WE completely changed subject from can shadowsteps be balanced on sins to AoD needs fix :p Lilondra *poke* 07:07, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

The point is to find an Assassin build that is strategically valid and has both a Shadowstep and a Deep Wound. If we can find such a build, we can balance the other Assassin skills around that. For example, most Hammer builds go from the same principle, the elite added in generally is just a variation on the others. I think that's a good way to balance Assassins. Dark Morphon 14:16, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

For that build to be balanced, it has to be extremely easy to kill, like a warrior with frenzy and no cancel. NuVII 15:14, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Frenzy = 60AL warriors. Sin = 70 AL cause AoD to have -10AL while being maintained and bam we have balance apparantly... not. To balance out the sin you need to take away knock-locking from the shadow step + deep wound equation. The falling skills are what lead to a finisher with Twisting Fangs or Blades of Steel in most chains. The problem is all the connecting points for chains. At most the longest a chain should be is 4 attack skills and that would be considered a dedicated chain bar. There's not a problem with a surprise "hi I'm in melee range" skill as long as the melee damage is controlled, and for the sin it hasn't been. Knock locking combined with 7 hits in 4 seconds + deep wound from a single source is the problem. It forces the sin into a hit or miss role. The shadow step will be fine when 5 attack skill bars are made not viable, they are currently balanced fine due to after cast.~>Sins WDB 16:47, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

That's not a good comparison. A warrior under frenzy takes 60 damage from empathy, a warrior with 60 armor would take 30ish damage. Same goes for Ineptitude, most of the smiting, and air magic, for an extent. Furthermore, aftercast isn't that bad - it still allows an assassin to ignore positioning. Knockdowns on assassins are a different beast entirely, but when you take away stuff like ox, the assassin will just use shock. NuVII 17:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

I know it's a bad comparison for AL ignoring damage, I was being sarcastic. To shock now. So? Shock isn't heavy damage, it's profession denies IAS, it's only effective to start a chain not continue a chain from 3 to 5, and the damage comes very slow in comparison to current dps (which is definitely a better thing for balance). Give me a valid counter point.~>Sins WDB 02:11, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Like I said the discussion is all about AoD while its shadowsteps we were talking about ? Balance Shadowsteps first,Then do AoD if you don't find a way then revamp it.Lilondra *poke* 05:51, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

@SWDB - I would say that shock is pretty heavy damage - especially if you land it on a monk or something, than it's about equal to 100 damage + DW. The falling shocker worked fine (pretty fine) and they didn't use shock only to start the chain. Oh, and without and IAS, too.

All an assassin needs to do on a spike is DW - which isn't that tough when you have twisting. Remember, on a balanced team (I'm guessing that's what you meant by balance) you have your midline contributing to the spike - all you need to bring is DW and a couple hundred points of damage, which isn't that hard with just 3-ish skills. You'll have less pressure, sure, but your spike is going to be much harder to stop and predict. I guess that's fair trade for not using a warrior. NuVII 15:42, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Questions here, would you consider the harder stoppability and predictability that you get from spikes equal in worth to the additional pressure Warriors inflict, inferior or superior? And would you consider this difference an example of brokenness or not? Dark Morphon 15:57, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I mean, yeah, that could work. A warrior doesn't need to spike to cause some headaches - his auto attack is strong enough to pressure like a serious mother. An assassin who isn't spiking or spamming attack skills (loldiversion) isn't worth shit though - he can land an interrupt here and there, but he's just going to stand around like a jackass. Half your bar is your chain, so you you won't be able to bring the loldps a warrior can bring. On the flipside, a warrior is very easy to see and prot against - warrior hacks someone 8 times, he turns around and sprints towards the monks. Well, duh? An assassin will have shadow steps, unblockability, and KD's to go with his chain. Put a PnH on him, and his spike will go through.

Is that worth the pressure a warrior brings? Well, at the stand the warrior will be more useful, but when things get split up the assassin's spike will be more lethal. It'd depend on the build and the map being played on, but if warrior pressure + Warrior spike = Assassin pressure + Assassin spike, I see no reason why they wouldn't be used interchangeably. NuVII 16:13, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't get that comparison.A warrior should *always* have alot more DPS then a sin.Like I said Balance shadowsteps around sins and make them sin only.Make sins mobility,Warrior dps,Dervish spike Lilondra *poke* 16:32, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Think of it like a math equation - war get good Dps and good spikes, and assassins get bad dps and lolspikes. It evens out. NuVII 16:37, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

If the shadowsteps cause the spike to be a *lolspike* then yes.If the sin can nearly kill someone with 650ish helth alone then fuck no Lilondra *poke* 16:40, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

(R.I) Personally I'd say 450 damage *including* DW and excluding damage from bleeding/poison/... So they can still kill a npc easely but can't instagib for shit anymore and need some hefty support at stand.(IMO Make them gimp on health and/or armor so they are only good at stand if they are creating a powerplay advantage this way) Lilondra *poke* 16:42, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Concerning instagibbing, no balaced build ever had that ability - even the vaunted backbreaker spike back in proph did little over 300 damage - you should always need someone else's aid to kill something, period. NuVII 17:50, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

For some reason you always respond at the points I don't need response at and ignore the other.450 damage including DW enough for you ? Lilondra *poke* 18:23, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Bring it down to between 300-200. NuVII 18:34, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Thats *rly* low thats basicly killing sins tbh,Thats like a Dismember + Executioner's strike spike :/ Lilondra *poke* 18:36, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

What about a mark that appears on your healthbar for 3 seconds when somebody shadowsteps to you ? Similar to for example the hex arrow ? This way monks can easely see the spike coming on stand.But on Split your still awesome Lilondra *poke* 18:37, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

No, that's not too little. The falling shocker, case and point (lol, thanks for linking that Dark) the spike isn't enough to kill outright (400+ DW usually is) but great at the split and some such.

Also, unnecessary. Good teams are coordinated enough to ignore any such marks, and lrn2awereness. NuVII 18:40, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I'll admit I'm a terrible monk but it would force them to coordinate shutdown every time at any level.Also I'm the one that gave that link to dark >>.And I'm pretty sure I said 400-450 including DW.Wich is 300-350 + DW Lilondra *poke* 18:45, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, that'll depend on the nature of the combo - but a good gauge is that a DW is worth 100 damage, an enchant removal is 50-75 damage and a KD is 100 damage. Multiply by 1.4 if the entire thing is unblockable. Don't go over 400. NuVII 18:50, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Personally I think you are to conservative with the power of a sin and you would leave them really weak.Imo They should have knockdowns but only 1 (excluding chain) to use at any time (entanglin asp and give it disable) or shock for example (putting more then 2 is proly retarded anyway).They should not have easy enchant removal (like 1-2 skills max,excluding elite skills wich would make a 4 skill total) and shouldn't have a unblockable chain (not completely or perhaps at a huge cost).Basicly if you want to use your calculation's lower the knockdown shit and/or up the damage.Also up the cost of unblockable Lilondra *poke* 18:54, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Unblockable sin skills are either elite, broken or quite weak - So having the entire chain (and remember- having half the chain foxy isn't worth much) unblockable costs you quite a bit of power - the only unblockable DW sin's have is impale, and lolimpale amirete?

Yes, I want to make assassins weaker. Not too weak, but bear in mind that my ideal assassin would exists before the power creep - so no PnH. I want them to exist in an environment where dishing out half the spike is a good enough investment of your pressure ability. Sadly, the current meta demands more of it's players. NuVII 19:07, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I realise that.AT GWFC some powercreep was needed but this is just retarded Lilondra *poke* 04:44, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Long page is long. Time to archive some things? Dark Morphon 09:30, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Go right ahead, this is just me and Lil Rambling. NuVII 15:10, 13 October 2009 (UTC)