Feedback talk:Game updates/20110523

Skills Nerfed?

Avatar of Balthazar isn't elite anymore, they need to split it for pvp. A six second recharge on Hof also makes no sense. I'm not sure why Onslaught needed nerfing but the others skills look alright.70.145.246.222 22:05, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

the recharge makes sense having maintainable ias with no drawback = broken skill tho i agree with you with aob split74.90.248.244 22:09, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I guess hof recharge makes sense then, still not sure about onslaught tho. 70.145.246.222 22:11, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

(Edit conflict x2) The Heart of Fury nerf really doesn't hurt you in the end. With just a 9+1 attribute investment into Mysticism, you have a 7 second IAS with maybe a 3-4 second downtime (to build the extra 3 strikes of adrenaline, you should already have at least one). That's a very, very minimal drawback. And, I have to say, 25% increased adrenaline gain is fine. A vast majority of Dervish adrenaline skills were pretty easily spammable, in conjunction with quick-recharging feeder flash enchantments. Not to mention burning. The result was simply too much pressure being produced from one character. I'd hope that change would tone down the pressure an Avatar of Balthazar dervish can deal to a reasonable level. Obviously there are still many issues with dervishes that need to be addressed, but this update certainly is a clear attempt to deal with some of the problems. Ryuu  *bite* 22:17, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

@Ryuu: That explains a lot, thanks. Aob needs a pvp/pve split though. Quite a few derv elites became obselete since the February derv update.70.145.246.222 22:23, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I find people say that about a lot about certain skills after an update. "This profession already didn't have enough of useful ____ for Pve. Now you took another of it's ____, so I'm stuck to using _____." I think a vast majority of Anet's focus with these updates is really PvP in the end. PvP splits are made for changes which would be completely breaking for a skill's functionality in PvE, I think that's really about it. I also believe they try to keep the pvp/pve splitting to a minimal, saving time and preventing complication and confusion. If it isn't absolutely necessary, then they don't do it. I mean, they could go and complete a hoard of PvE skill updates to improve the "variety" of skills available to the pve skill pool, but the same could be said for Pvp, too. In the end, I just don't think it's a priority. If they were to do something like that, it would be a project on it's own. And right now, they have other plans. Ryuu  *bite* 22:34, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) True, although cutting the armor bonus in half, changing it to physical, AND getting rid of 33% movements for an ELITE? I hardly see any reasoning for that, as for as pve is concerned. 2-3 second burning is useless is pve, teardown builds were strictly for pvp. A plethora of enchant stripping nulls it's use in pve. Things like the Vos change and Sand Shards, makes perfect sense. They wanted dervs to be aoe and not heavy spikers. Nerfing the forms just wasn't the way to go for pve, imo. Mind you the melandru avatar is reasonable, I don't understand the others. 70.145.246.222 22:43, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, first of all. "Avatar of Balthazar: decreased adrenaline gain to 25%; changed burning duration to 1...3 seconds." Where do you see reduction of an armor bonus? I'm rather curious. Is there an undocumented change? If you're talking about pre-February, you also have to realize that Mysticism didn't grant you armor in the past. I believe the reduced armor gain was a reflection of that change. Your armor rating really shouldn't be effected in a noticeable way. 100 armor vs physical damage. (70 base + 10 mysticism + 20 vs physical.) It makes you wear warrior armor. Realize that. That's really another thing; the "vs" physical was made to be a parallel to Warriors. (Balthazar, the god of war.) This isn't including any defensive equipment modifications you might be utilizing (a scythe of defense, blessed insignias, Windwalker Insignias). I also think you're complaining about something that isn't a problem, here. Dervishes are a problem right now because they can pretty much do everything a Warrior can, but better. All the while, they're more or less immune to Warriors (they can't be linebacked at all.) Should they have better armor than a warrior, too? Warriors only have 80 base armor. Dervishes pretty much have 80 base armor.

On the subject of movement speed, I'm sorry an update removed a reliable running skill for you. But, the update was an attempt to give form skills a different usage. And, actually make them usable. Would you prefer 33% increased movement speed permanently, rather than increased adrenaline gain, and burning? There's quite a lot of options to increase movement speed, but not a lot of options to increase adrenaline gain on hit (permanently, for that matter). That's pretty much the bottom line. It's worth a slot because there's nothing else with the functionality that isn't elite. (Again, permanent increased adrenaline gain has only been seen by other elites in the past.)

None of these avatar changes were really a nerf at all, they were functionality changes. Perhaps you believe the new functionality of each skill is less powerful than the previous ones, but ultimately you're quite free to bring whatever skills you want.

Anyway, what you believe to be useless in pve is entirely your opinion, and I'd argue against it. But this update wasn't focused at; "what's useful in pve". It was focused at; "hey, guys. We accidentally removed warriors from the game."

</endrant> Ryuu  *bite* 23:02, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Dunno how you miss warriors; we still kick ass, and put them on the floor too! Dervishes don't do this. And now, they can't keep up a IAS properly.--Ipsen 03:33, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

No idea why they wanted some feedback on this shit and they didnt change a thing. HoF nerf is retarded, eda and dust cloak still need a nerf. 79.44.199.196 22:12, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

@70: For Onslaught, compare to Primal Rage. Same deal. --ஸ Kyoshi 22:15, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

A PvE update for skills to make a lot of the garbage and pointless mediocrity useful would be high on my priority list. They've had some brokenly terribad skills in the game for years now, and they only got worse with power creep in other areas. It would be a huge revitalisation to the PvE meta to have more viable skill choices available, especially seeing as it has never been done on a scale greater that band aid fixes since the PvE PvP split. To me that'd be more important than festival content or WoC. 122.111.161.4 00:11, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

AoB: Burning for 3 seconds means loss of 42 health on all adjacent nearby foes. It's quite alright as it is now. 62.197.173.242 08:36, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

This nerf isn't enough for RA and CA derv with 30+ Leech are fuckin' uber in underpressured 4vs4 with a 3DD+Monk Team a derv dont care much about empathy and can easily strip blind... The more good skilled derv you got in a team the better your chances, imo derv needs a nerf for 4plyr areas. --Kali Shin Shivara 15:39, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

And you will get the same thing with the warrior stances a couple of years ago, nerfed due to the 4vs4 ruining it for all other formats, to that i'd say no. But i do agree with one point and that is that dervishes can easily remove hexes and conditions from themselfs wich prevents effective counters. So far i am quite supprised they have been nerfing skills wich were seen as OP while the real reason of the OPness of the dervish still remains. Damysticreaper 17:30, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Wounding Strike

I remember when the Derv update came whiners were like "WS IS USLESS NAOZ (#@*@#(@##!!" and "THEY NERFED IT TOO HARD Q.Q" , and the half-assed decent people who played the game were like "there are better elites to run now, so WS is irrelevant." Look where we are now huh. Anvi God _zzz... 23:47, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, i never understood those whiners :P - J.P.Talk 10:41, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

A shame about WS but understandable, i dealt huge damage with it and owned all those avatar wikinoobs with it. Seems like hey semi-reverted it to it's old function wich still was concidered OP. The changes to Pious Fury and Onslaught however is a little bit too much. Reducing the duration to 1...6...7 for Pious Fury (PvP) and 2...8...10 for Onslaught (PvP) would have been enough. AoB also understandable it's adrenaline gain is now in line with Onslaught and the nerf to the burning condition balances it a bit better with the disease duration of AoG and other flash enchantments that inflict burning condition, also keep in mind that burning is a powerful condition and could be easily maintained on enemies when using AoB (the derv isn't an ele). Damysticreaper 10:53, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Onslaught would then still be easily maintainable with an enchanting mod, and it's so easily covered with flash enchantments that it's essentially Primal Rage with no double-damage, plus adrenaline gain. Seems fine as it currently is. --ஸ Kyoshi 18:07, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Good

I like the new derv buffs, but they were too much. Dervs have needed this for a while now. AoG probably needs a poke with the nerf stick, too. 81.102.193.38 17:18, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

AoG has already been nerfed and AoB has been nerfed so AoG and AoB are now balanced to eachother, so it needs no nerf. What needs to be done is an abolishment of PvX so those pvx derps ehh dervs will learn how to actually play the dervish properly instead of running pvx noob builds. Damysticreaper 18:24, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Seriously? You only needed to play a couple of rounds in RA or obs a match or two of organised PvP to see that certain derv builds were becoming highly popular - just like any meta builds. It's not hard to copy one off someone. Besides, it's not up to anyone to abolish PvX except perhaps themselves, which isn't going to happen. As far as "playing the dervish properly" goes, define "properly". If a cookie-cutter PvX build wins me more matches than one I made up, maybe that is the "proper" way to play. Yeah it sucks, but that's just the way the skills are. 86.23.8.204 09:54, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

You would be amazed how easily they go down when you use a simple WS build wich uses the teardown mechanic to it's maximum potential. Right now the PvX avatar builds of the dervish still stick too much to the old playstyle of the dervish and not using the power of teardown to it's fullest, wich is the playstyle that makes the dervish most effective to kill when used. Damysticreaper 11:03, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm... I'm at a loss for words. Lead us onwards to glory, Damysticreaper- clearly, although you have yet to master basic subjects like spelling and grammar, you are an unparalleled genius when it comes to the Dervish class and we should listen to no advice but yours on this subject. I'm glad that's finally settled. But can you tell me why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch? 64.35.202.151 20:10, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Damysticreaper im with you pvp and guild wars is no longer what it used to be. People copy everything and etc at least they didnt delete your comment yet cos u know turth really hurts them. To this grammar nerd no one was talking about spelling and besides it s a weak excuse to reject what Damy said.... Just keep copying everything, make more nerfs than actual pve or pvp updates... What people just cant see that nerfs are not caused by Anet we (minus me and guess Damy) cause them, and you keep doing the same thing over and over again. PvX observer mode is no friend.... In real life i love people who are predictable but i play this game to relax and to forget my every day probs. I meet a lot of dozen kind people princesses, wannabes etc do i have to meet em in this game as well.... No thanks...

Believe it or not, there are not infinite skill combinations in Guild Wars because there are not infinite skills. No matter what build you're using, someone else came up with it first. Playing badly for the sake of originality may be fun for you, but the majority of players like playing efficiently and winning. elix Omni 19:13, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Playing badly vs. using no meta is not the same. I can see a lot of mesmers who just spam wastrels endlessly on my mesmer. I do understand your point but for me personality and originality is the way to go. Don't forget that good players invented the basic concepts, the bad thing is that of course everyone adopted their strategy used their builds to an extent nerfs were inevitable ( ironically those guilds didn't want easy victory, it was actually fun to observe gvg matches that time when 2 totally different teams faced each other, no let's use 8 necros cos they got soul reaping etc etc). Current problem is that Anet made the game so easy that it lost it s complexity. There are only a handful of skills that do more than just damage in other words something more complex. They are overshadowed by higher DPS spells/skills, check for example Mind blast, Searing flames and Mind burn. The first 2 are part of meta and Mind burn is not even though it s sf+mb ( minus energy gain big deal, exhaustion excludes the use of meteor though yet imo 1 kds every 30 secs is waste of a skill slot) together basicly.... Guess which one is my favorite :) pressing button 1 every 2 secs or time Mind burn with other skills to kill a monk even under protective spirit. Think about it.

Your train of thought is confusing and you seemed to go rambo there. Mind Burn is a poor choice because people don't use Mind Burn because it requires thinking, but because it sucks no matter what "innovative" bar you come up with it. Anvi God _zzz... 20:46, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

thats simply because WW is being used badly there. Meteor is powerful because it wins games when used properly thus your understanding of the skill there is very shallow. Mind burn can be strong but mind shock is infinitely superior. To be good you must first have a skill bar that makes sense, but because the meta skills are always so op it simply takes little thinking to use but do realise some actual player skill is needed to master those builds e.g cancel casting, qstep, field awareness. This is what separates good players from the bad. But you can't be good if your bar makes no sense in the first place. Zencow 21:28, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

To translate your words: it all comes down on experience. Regardless wich meta you use the experienced once always win. Problem is still they are all copying the same builds so builds don't matter anymore in PvP. Damysticreaper 22:30, 2 June 2011 (UTC)