Feedback talk:User/Guild Wars 3 perhaps/Engineering...we have a problem...can you fix it?

If I had to make a suggestion, it would be rather just like this. I do hope that the folks over at ANet consider it worth their time to implement some subtle texture/lore changes to better incorporate the Engineer class. NALANA 21:39, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

I like the backstory for the Charr getting a hold of AsuraTech™. (And I agree: ixnay on LEDs, too.) — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 01:11, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I do like the lore you've come up with, but I think it's premature to suggest ArenaNet doesn't have some decent justification for advanced technology of their own. I'd wait and see what they come up with before proposing fixes. elix Omni 06:30, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

But I think that's the problem people are having with this; the mines specifically. ArenaNet has already stated that the Charr are essentially at a technological level equivalent to our Industrial Age. Blinking LEDs on a mine are not consistent with that level of technology. So there's really no justification for it. Even if later they state that it's a blinking crystal rather than a blinking LED, the impression in the minds of some among the fan base who've watched the skill videos is that it's an LED; and that just doesn't fit with what we know - to date - of the Charr, their technology, and the advancements of the last 250 years. So even if the justification from ArenaNet's perspective is rationale and consistent, it doesn't satisfy the fan base. And that's not something easily ignored. As an aside, though, I think it's great that the Engineer class is stirring such spirited debate. It demonstrates how passionate the fan base is about Guild Wars and that can only be a good thing. Guild Wars 3 perhaps 06:45, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Watch the videos again. That's not LEDs - it's just a flash/spark of light... above the mine, which looks like asuran technology. Honestly, outside the beeping sound of the mine, there's no issue with the engineer (which makes 100% no sense, in lore or aesthetic - mines shouldn't make ANY sound other than a nice *click* before the *BOOM*). People just need to realize that it's a game and that you have to give a certain amount of disbelief when playing a game. Sometimes, mechanics take president over lore. E.g., turrets auto-tracking enemies and only enemies. Or a Meteor Shower not harming the allies of the caster. It's nothing new and people are bawling rivers over nothing.

We should also note that the Iron Legion appears to be a bit further than Industrial Age in terms of technology, they have the look of that age. We saw cars in the charr trailer, and they looked more advanced than what we had during the industrial revolution era, and if I recall, we had mention of tanks too. -- Konig/talk 07:30, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I've actually written quite a bit in defense of the Engineer class. If the profession, it's mechanics, and it aesthetics remained intact exactly as we've seen it to date in the skill videos, I wouldn't feel that it's the best solution ArenaNet could come up with; but I could live with it if there was no other option forthcoming. However, there has been quite an outpouring of opposition (by others) to how some aspects of the Engineer have been implemented. My suggestions have been made in the spirit of resolving these discrepancies to better satisfy the need of the opposition to bring the Engineer more in line with the internal logic of the GW game world.

For example, I agree with you that the turrets - for the sake of game mechanics - must remain auto-tracking. Otherwise, they're nearly useless if all they do is fire in a straight line or not otherwise reliably fire at enemies. I'm not suggesting removing auto-tracking; I'm suggesting how to make the auto-tracking fit better within the context of the game's history, lore, and internal logic. Doing so removes nothing from the mechanics of the turrets while at the same time satisfying the need of some portion of the fan base to have the turrets "make sense" from a lore/available technology perspective. Win-win.

Yes, it's a game. And, yes, a certain suspension of disbelief, logic, and rationale thought must occur for the sake of satisfying our desire or need for entertainment, recreation, and creativity. But the better a games developer can reconcile those two competing forces, the better the game. The reason being is then players' aren't being asked to suspend disbelief to such an extent that it no longer becomes possible to maintain the self-deception required to immerse one's self in the game.

For example, if the turrets had a cutesy unicorn head at the end of the metal rifle barrel which then spits out gumballs for bullets, I think we could agree that would not fit within the context of Guild Wars (now watch as somebody posts a response saying how much they would love to see gumball-spitting unicorn turrets). That's a ridiculous example, but it's to make a point. The point being that - for some fans - it's equally ridiculous to have the Industrial Revolution-era Charr creating auto-targeting turrets in the absence of any plausible mechanism for doing so (plausible within the context of the game's internal logic). My suggestion speaks to making auto-targeting plausible and consistent with the game's internal logic; thus resolving this overtaxing of the suspension of disbelief.

There will be people who will complain just for the sake of complaining. Though some of that has most certainly occurred in the discussions that have taken place with regards to the Engineer, I feel they are in the minority. I've read the entire discussion thread when the Engineer was first introduced and many of the posts had legitimate concerns regarding the aesthetics and mechanics of the profession. I'm just throwing out ideas that are one attempt at finding a happy medium that everyone can live with. Those who want to keep the mechanics of the Engineer intact get what they want and those who need those mechanics to "make sense" get what they want, as well.

P.S. I've used the turrets as my example in this portion of the discussion, but I would apply the same argument to the mines or any other aspect of the Engineer that has been identified as problematic in the debate over this latest profession reveal. I'm not looking to take anything away from the class; I'm just looking to more firmly ground it with the internal logic of the game world. Guild Wars 3 perhaps 08:38, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I just want to say that I agree with you in what I've read. I was just saying that nothing needs to be done. You're right that, as is, it's not the best they could do - a simple coding of removing the sound from the mine's beeping would be a vast improvement - but I was merely stating that it's not necessary. -- Konig/talk 09:19, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

These suggestions pages are hardly going to bring up "necessary" changes, so that's a rather pointless thing to bring up, imo. The suggestions are unnecessary improvements people would like to see, by nature. NALANA 21:08, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

This is a great idea. The "re-skins" would allow for the same mechanics to be used, but gives a plausible if not great explaination for it. It did bothered me that it was auto-targeting in the turret video but I figured that there would be some explaination. I think this should be that explaination. Darkshine 21:36, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't like the beeping or the blinking on the mine at all, personally. Mines are supposed to be a hidden ambush weapon that you don't realize is there until it's too late. If in WWII the land mines had red lights flashing on them and made loud beeping noises, a hell of a lot more people would have made it home. The best solution is to completely remove the flashing and beeping from the mines. Don't explain the beeping and flashing. Remove it. As for the turret, I'm with the "it's some kind of Asuran golemancy thing" crowd as an explanation of the auto-targetting. And the description in the original post tells a pretty plausible story. Metal Maniac 00:24, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you that the mines should have no indication of their presence at all. However, my feeling is that won't happen for two reasons:

1. The game developers will want to give the player who set the mine some kind of visual indicator of where their mines have been placed.
2. Citing that all-important "In the interests of game balance" clause, they will leave some kind of visual clue to the location of mines so enemy players in PvP will have a chance to avoid them. Otherwise - so the argument will go - the Engineer's mines would be too overpowered if other players can't even see them at all. It would give the Engineer too much of an advantage.

At least, those are the two counter-arguments I can see being used to justify keeping a visual clue to the presence of mines. Given this, my suggestion for removing the blinking LED-like light and replacing it with a glowing crystal detonator was an acceptance of the likely inevitability that a visual indicator is going to be put on the mines no matter what, while trying to make that visual indicator more consistent with the aesthetics, lore, and technological level of the game. Guild Wars 3 perhaps 21:15, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Simple Solution

Simple solution is that Charrs have just kept prisoners, among them Asurans. These slavers create the technology, not the Charrs. Perhaps they now have more or less automatic factories for their gadgets although Charrs themselves don't know or care how it works, as long as it works. --Lexx 18:40, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

The thing is, is that people don't like how the skills look (especially the mine), not jsut in lore. A simple solution would be to change the graphics to add crystals to the top of mines (rather than a blinking LED-like thing) and to add something magically glowing in turrets, as well as lore that explains it (all the lore ideas that have been presented are believeable). Darkshine 19:41, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

i too can't accept the auto-tracking turret in its current form, if they have the technology for that they have the tech to build jet fighters and nukes. if you did change the way it worked, it could just attack in a cone or something but as people have already said this would cause more problems than it solves with balance etc to be considered. i do like the asura-tech explanation as the technology in this world is different to ours so it's conceivable that the asurans magic/technology hybrid could account for the auto-targetting without implying similar levels of technology in other fields/applications. personally i don't like the reverse engineering idea though as you might as well say the char have the same level of technology as asura, the slave labour thing is a great solution and very in-keeping with the character of the char in my opinion. however as many have alluded to, it's not enough to have an explanation in ones head you want it to be reflected in-game (or it will spoil the immersion), therefore the turret at least needs a new skin to make it look like it has elements of asura tech (i.e. blue glowing bits etc). come to think of it, wouldn't the turret skin be different for different races anyway?? wouldn't seem to make sense if asura engineers were using char-esque steampunk tech. (however if all races do have different turrets, they should all contain an element of asura tech and appearence, the explanation being the char sold the slave labour-produced tech to other races)

Inquest

Tbh I find the OP's reverse engineering idea to be acceptable, but not that great. Since when have the Asuran cared enough about allies to give away the tech they value so much? The slave idea is a little more acceptable, but I still find it unlikely that the charr would employ asuran slaves, remember they need to stay on good terms so they can still use the asuran gates, otherwise the humans would have a decisive advantage in the war. I think a much more likely solution is that the Asuran Inquest corporation traded the charr the tech in exchange for a steady supply of "willing" test subjects (aka the lesser species that charr have captured as slaves) Furthermore I doubt the tech was entirely stable when the asuran gave it to the charr. This reeks of asuran logic, give some bookah the dangerous testing job without them realizing it and getting more test subjects in return. Pleas note that while I enjoyed both the ideas put here I found them to be lacking in believability, I was more comfortable with just assuming there was asuran magic involved for the same reason that there are slyvari engineers (the classes represent the effects of ideas moving around in society picking up new bits along the way). I also agree with the asthetic changes, and mines may go better with no indicator, forcing you to remember approximately where you placed them. Indigo121 12:54, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

And Now For Something Entirely Different

OP here. It just occurred to me that maybe we're looking at this all wrong. In the Guild Wars April Fools Day "reveal" of the Commando profession, we were also presented with a side mission with Corporal Bane; a time traveling soldier from the future. His mission was to stop the Annihilator Golem (sent by the Charr, by the way) from assassinating Gwen's mother, Sarah, in the past. Perhaps the Charr's Guild Wars 2 level of technology is the result of having obtained and reverse engineered items and weapons carelessly left behind by Corporal Bane. In which case, mines with blinking LEDs and grenades and all manner of other Engineer-class innovations could easily be explained. Guild Wars 3 perhaps 04:13, 15 August 2011 (UTC)