Feedback talk:User/Widowmaker/Wilderness Survival Skill Changes

Before the Hunter's Shot and Melandru's Shot changes, bleeding was supposed to be hard to inflict by rangers for some odd reason. So Barbed Arrows always had some sort of penalty for the ranger. I approve of this change. Koda Kumi 18:37, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I kind of agree with them on the whole class themes thing, but when the skill is so much inferior to Apply Poison, it just seems silly. I suppose they could lower the duration of the preparation or the duration of the bleeding a tad if they really wanted to make it stay a little inferior, but even with a buff like this it would be pretty much a choice of bleeding or poison, and poison would still win almost all the time. Widowmaker 23:35, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Put up some more ideas. I would be a tad worried about Winnowing stacking with Order of Pain (or Order of the Vampire), but I think it would die quickly. Widowmaker 00:11, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Barbed Arrows was always kept weaker because if you buff it, Rangers will be able to easily spread both Bleeding and Poison without using any elites on it. If anything, Barbed Arrows should be reworked. Dark Morphon 17:37, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Like I said, I see that, but remember that a single ranger can't spread Bleeding and Poison at the same time without using an elite - you would need Barbed Arrows and Poison Arrow for that. Well, you can use Apply with Hunter's et c. but you can do that already, just as you can use Apply with a spear and Barbed Spear. 188.74.101.228 18:18, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, to keep balance, one of them has to use an elite to be able to spread both Conditions because the combination ofBleeding and Poison without intervention from a different midliner is elite worthy. Dark Morphon 12:33, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah but even with a Barbed Arrows buff, you still need an elite, Poison Arrow to do that (or Poison Tip Signet, but that hits only one foe and takes a lot of time to keep reapplying). Spreading both through Hunter's and Apply is something which can already be done and can be done regardless of any changes to Barbed Arrows. Thus a change like this wouldn't really make it that much easier for a single ranger to spread both, it would just make it viable to spread Bleeding instead of Poison. Widowmaker 12:39, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Concerning Hunter's Shot and Poison Tip Signet, these skills only allow you to apply the Condition like every 8 seconds, iunno the exact numbers. Apply Poison and Barbed Arrows are different: they actually allow you to spread said Conditions. There is a whole lot of difference there. Concerning these skills themself, my point is that being able to spread Poison and Bleeding, even with two Rangers, should either cost one of those Ranger's elite or should require the help from another profession that is unable to spread either Condition reliably on himself. There are two reasons for this: Ranger Condition pressure will practically double if you use both Apply and Barbed and Barbed Arrows will always invalidate Melandru's Arrows in its current form. Dark Morphon 15:57, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Except two rangers can already do that, but one of them has to suffer -40 armour. If that's a worry, Apply should be nerfed down to Barbed's level (or the two should be equalised somewhere in between), because it's kinda silly for Barbed to be so much worse. Also, Melandru's Arrows kinda needs a buff anyway, since it already lasts 3/4 of the time Barbed lasts... even the current Barbed is probably better than Mel's Arrows since you can keep your elite. Widowmaker 00:08, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Ugh. Yes, two Rangers can already do that. The -40 armor is barely relevant (omfg, double damage while I'm in a block stance anyway!) and the only thing this buff will do is make Barbed Arrows more resilient to shutdown. With or without the buff Rangers will be able to spread Poison and Bleeding without spending their elite on it. That's bad. That's why this skill needs a rework and absolutely not a straight buff. tl;dr rework this skill. Dark Morphon 09:07, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

What else can you do with it? There's not much that fits the skill name other than Bleeding (see Barbed Spear) or maybe some +dmg or somesuch (which is generally considered to be a bad thing on rangers... look at how Read the Wind got nerfed). Given that it's easy to use as it is if you really want to, a team in HA will gain very little from this since the -40 armour should be covered by the fact that you do actually have a backline, and in RA you can't chose your teammates, so while you might get two rangers, one with each, which could be a strong combo, it's just luck. Really this would just mean that people who wanted to be able to spread both could go Barbed + Poison Arrow without suffering a pointless penalty... a viable alternative to Apply + Mel's Shot which is currently more powerful thanks to the +dmg and cripple (even with the 12 recharge). Obviously if I think of a good way to rework this I would take it over the plain buff, but imo this is better than what we have now and if there's a problem it's more with Apply and/or Mel's Shot than Barbed Arrows. 188.74.101.228 23:28, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Reworking this isn't very hard. Just make it a variant on Hunter's Shot of sorts. You could give it 15 recharge and let it target as much targets as Incendiary Arrows does, for example. I'm not arguing against your buff for this skill, I really couldn't care less, I'm arguing against this skill's function. Concerning Poison Arrow or Melandru's Shot, ohai elite slot. Mel's isn't a dedicated Bleeding spreader anyway: It's strong because it does so much at the same time (with Bleeding being one of those things). Dark Morphon 13:15, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah I mean Mel's + Apply > Poison + Barbed... probably because it's not a dedicated bleeding spreader. I can see that Barbed Arrows could be reworked into an attack skill, but I had aimed to keep it as a preparation. Still, it worked for IA so I might post up an alternative, at least. I only worry that something like a multiple-arrow bleeding, non-elite IA would be even more powerful for spreading posion and bleeding since it could be used with Apply Poison, unless you made it remove preparations, I guess. EDIT: Signing logged in. Widowmaker 15:04, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes. That's why I suggested a 15 recharge. Dark Morphon 14:14, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I guess you could have something like:

Barbed Arrows 10 15

Bow Attack. Shoot arrows at target foe and up to 2 adjacent foes. These arrows deal +2...8...10 damage and inflict Bleeding for 5...13...15 seconds.

I just think that this would be worse than a preparation since you could stack it with Apply Poison, and spread both to up to three people at once without an elite... it's not even being bleeding + poison now, it's being bleeding + poison + 3 at once, something which currently isn't possible even with an elite (you'd need IA and PA in a single skill). Widowmaker 15:48, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Looks pretty ok to me. Remove the + damage, though. Dark Morphon 15:57, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

No actually, make it perfect. Let it remove preparations from self. Dark Morphon 15:59, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Ah yeah, that's what Volley and Barrage do. Perhaps it might be possible to have it simply ignore preparations, though, so that you can still use one, but not to spread poison to 3 people at once? I'm not sure whether that would still be too powerful, though, since you would still be able to spread both, just a bit slower. Widowmaker 13:57, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Iunno. It's just a random idea. I think that if it has adjacent range and no +dmg, it won't have to remove your prep. Dark Morphon 14:25, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Without a prep it's a bit rubbish (compare with Volley) but with it's probably a tad OP, even if it is only adjacent range. Widowmaker 17:09, 9 February 2010 (UTC)