Talk:Ascalon (pre-Searing)/Draft

Draft differences with current article

I've attempted a substantial re-write of the main article with the following things in mind:

• Pre-Searing is unique among regions in the game and the article should highlight differences.
• The pre-Searing community is unique and the article should attempt to introduce the reasons for that (details of which would properly go into a separate article).

Here are the main differences between this draft and the article (as it existed):

• Soundtrack is moved to Trivia, which is parallel to other articles (e.g. Voice Actors are listed there, too).
• I've created a new section, Isolation, that emphasizes the differences. It contains the following sections:
  1. Gameplay, e.g. differences in loot, lack of DP, ...
  2. Economy, e.g. why and how it differs from that in post-Searing, especially noting services unique to the area (gate monkey).
  3. Maximum levels and LDoA, e.g. why LDoA is there and why it's hard to obtain.

Since this is a change in direction for the article, I've created this subpage so that we can discuss what works (and what fails) before merging the articles (or replacing the original). I'm not married to any of the language or to any of the particular sections (or the level of detail). My primary goal is to make sure that the article reflects the richness of the region and its unique place in the hearts of players...or at least the reason it captures players' attention.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 02:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't think such detail is needed for the economy bit - that's a player driven thing and, as such, can change at any time tbh. The wiki is for documenting the game, not players. I think it goes a bit too much into gameplay and the title as well. There shouldn't be a need to separate those from the notes, tbh. And do we really need that unexplored map anyways? No other region has one... -- Konig/talk 02:20, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Did minor changes - regarding the soundtrack, that's not really trivial and is above notes in other articles, so I moved it above notes here. -- Konig/talk 02:22, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I think the depth is needed b/c no other region is isolated from the rest of the game; pre-Searing really is unique. The economy could change at any time, but it hasn't in the two years I've been playing, making the section about the game. We document minion masters and spirit spammers, and those, too could change (but they don't).

However, I can see your point of view, too. And, as noted, I think it would be okay to separate out that section into another article. Do you want to wait to see what others say? Or do you want to try that first, in preparation for featuring?

I'll start a new thread about Soundtrack; I agree that your edit is consistent with articles for other regions.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 02:28, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Outside of set prices, the economy is always about the players, never the game. The depths is not needed, it's a region non-the-less and while its isolation should be commented and emphasized in the article, it doesn't require such a huge section imo. The MM/SS and like things are common acronyms/terms given to builds - something created merely to help players identify what they mean, whereas "economy" is not a term. Different scenarios albeit both are player maintained (also, said comparisons of acronyms and terms are more of player influenced rather than player created - outside the term, that is - as the minions/spirits/etc. are provided by the game, and the players merely gave the terms to the use of these things whereas the economy is player created).

Personally I'd say that the only thing needed for the actual article, outside a grammar check, would be addition of the hard mode mention and a rephrasing of the notes (which you put into the isolation bit). Wait for others to comment though, for now, I suppose. -- Konig/talk 03:11, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Re: next steps. So, let's wait 2-3 days for comments. Unless there's significant support for an expansive Ascalon article, I'll make the minor changes to the main article and create a second that describes the isolated region in detail. That way the article will be ready for feature-status within the week either way.

re: official vs unofficial Guild Wars. The thing is, we not only document the official game, we also document how the game is played. While MM might be a common acronym, Minion Master is a 12k character article; it's not just something created to help players identify the term. In contrast, this draft clocks in at under 8k characters. Similarly, we document tips and walkthroughs in the body of quest/mission articles and those are even farther from official than some of the characteristics of pre-Searing. We also have guides, analysis of mechanics, and the math behind efficient pursuit of expensive titles. In other words, I think this wiki has a place for ubiquitous ideas & activities, those things so common and/or important that they are in the game as much (if not more so) than certain official concepts.

Of course, that doesn't mean that this particular draft should be the main article. Nor does it mean the info it has must be in the wiki. It does mean that it would be consistent with current practice; the community has to decide how much it cares about the topic.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 04:08, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

No consensus to include community in the main article - alternative proposal

I don't see anyone clamoring for this draft version, although we didn't put our a serous request for comments. I propose then to separate the how the community functions portion of the draft out into a sub-article, leaving more of a just the facts ma'am page for the main article. Does anyone have any strong feelings otherwise?  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 21:15, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Still don't see much need to go into details for it, but a second page would be preferred if it's desired to be kept. We don't document stable things in the economy and such in many other places - especially not into such detail, truth be told - so I don't see why we should here either. -- Konig/talk 21:56, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I think I'm failing to convey the key difference: the game in Pre is not the same as the one in post. The small party size forces solo play, but getting into the Northlands creates the Gate Monkey role. Black Dye is used in Pre as alternative cash, whereas in post, there are several alternatives. There are many trading towns for post, but only one for pre. The community is small enough that it's easy for perma-pres to get to know each other, whereas in post, it's largely impossible to get to know those who hang out (unless they share some other interest, e.g. trading, running, etc.).

BTW: we do document all sorts of stable, non-mechanical concepts in post, but that's far outweighed by the number of community behaviors we do not document. I agree with the inherent idea that we should be very careful about choosing which of those we choose to document; I happen to strongly believe that pre-Searing is one of them.

In any case, the burden of consensus was on me ... and there is no support for including this in the main article (probably didn't help that the question wasn't advertised). Give me a couple of days to clean it up and apply the (I hope) non-controversial changes to the main article.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 22:08, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

"the game in Pre is not the same as the one in post" It's still Guild Wars. It's just an isolated tutorial. It's limited compared to the rest. That's it. There is no "forced solo play," and everything else you mentioned is player made based on the isolated aspect but they're unimportant in the grand scale of things. Black dye being used instead of ecto can be mentioned on the black dye page like how it is on for the ecto page - and it would be a singular line. Gate monkeys don't need to be mentioned here. Same with most of the stuff. I'll make an edit for a reduced form and it can be reverted if disagreed with too much. I'll leave the isolation section for now, and merely reduce it. -- Konig/talk 22:51, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I completely disagree. The mechanics might be the same, but players don't play the same in pre and post because of the isolation. Yes, a lot of this is player based, but it's been consistent for the time I've been playing (and apparently for longer, as I discuss with others who mostly stick to pre). To document the game and leave out gate monkeys, the use of black dye, and the different style of play... I think it's like leaving out minion masters or spirit spammers. Those aren't in the game; those are player inventions designed to take advantage of certain aspects of the mechanics, exploit some aspects, and mitigate others.

I don't have a problem if the two aspects are separated, so that the main article is mechanics and lore, but I think it would be misleading to leave out of the wiki the elements that you removed from this draft. They are critical to understanding pre-Searing as those new to the game will find it.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 23:12, 8 February 2011 (UTC)