Talk:Rapid Fire

Feedback

Good move on tying it into marksmanship since its not bound to bow-usage, but you might want to change the duration scale a little, only a few points in marksmanship and you get a 33% attack boost for whatever weapon you use (Yay assassins) and since its a perparation, its not very easy to knock someone out of it. --Tayos 01:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Ladies and Gentlemen say goodbye to Tiger Stance, and welcome Rapid Fire. --ChronicinabilitY 01:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

This, some spammable 10e bow attacks and prepared shot will give you some pretty good, sustainable DPS.

Hello again BoA sins, changed your name to RF sins eh? --Deathwing 06:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

TS is still very much viable, you're only spiking every 20 seconds anyway. 220.101.180.184 10:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

At last, a decent speed buff that doesn't have horrendous drawbacks! It'll be major abused though... 71.141.110.230 07:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

This won't work on (non-bow) sins, you're forgetting the 2 second activation time. Your target will have wandered off by then... :P Arshay Duskbrow 08:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Even with 7 points in marksmanship, you get 14 seconds out of it. Seems plenty to catch up to your target for me. --Xeeron 09:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

RF>SP>rock house --Deathwing 10:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm guessing the reason for not tying it to Expertise was to prevent Thumpers abusing it? But as everyone has pointed out the current scale makes it really strong for assassins and even more seriously for warriors and dervishes. In its current form this will be on every warrior bar, allowing them to have a no-drawback Frenzy and Rush up simultaneously, all the time (personally I'd run something like 14 Axe/Sword/Hammer, 7 Strength, 11 Marksmanship with this). Just limit it to bow attacks and the problem goes away. Errr 11:18, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Running w/r is a drawback tho (No Shock/Mend Touch etc.).

But Still, there are a lot of bars that would be much more versatile with this bar like Hammer Warriors, Assassins, etc.

Rapid Fire should only work with bows.

Really I think it would be more appropriate if the scale were a little more enticing to someone actually using a bow (9+ marks), not just locking it only to bows. Maybe give it a bonus like your arrows deal an additional 1...6 damage to encourage bow users. At the very limit, reduce the attack speed to 25%. But the whole 'assassins on speed' is a pretty touchy issue, otherwise this could encourage a few fun multi-weapon builds --Tayos 15:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Because the skill is a Preparation and a ranger needs attack speed to mostly to make his +damage Preparations effective, this skill is now a lot more useful on other weapons than bow. If the attack speed boost was, say, 40-50% (maybe scaling) and only applied to bows, it would make bow attack speed equal to spear attack speed, which doesn't seem so imbalanced as you are giving your preparation for it. (goodbye degening or spiking, it's all DPS with Rapid Fire) A 33% attack speed boost is pretty noticeable already, but you can get it (or 25%) from other sources while using a +dmg Preparation at the same time, leading to superior pressure. --84.250.16.99 23:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, yeah, actually I hadn't properly noticed the progression. To avoid ruining the duration for real rangers, I'd suggest just making it bow attacks only. Please do NOT reduce it to 25%, or this will be just another useless skill...you already took Tiger's/Bestial Fury from us due to Warrior abuse. -_- Arshay Duskbrow 00:16, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

You mean because of Rangers acting like Warrior abuse, right? --Deathwing 00:52, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Moreso by post-25% IWAY warriors. :P Arshay Duskbrow 04:48, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

This is a good, unique skill. Why is everyone so considered if a non-primary ranger uses it? SP sins will use Tiger's Stance or Pious Fury. I like the idea of a no drawback 33% IAS for the ranger. Living Parasite 06:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

No drawback? You lose your Preparation. 07:38, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I got into an argument with Ensign about this skill on the Smite Condition page (don't ask why). Here it is (have paraphrased my first post so it makes sense without the original context):

Rapid Fire is horribly imba. Errr 11:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

That's a joke right? -Ensign 12:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

It might be stupidity (probably is) but it isn't a joke. As Rapid Fire stands, a warrior can happily spec say 11 points into marksmanship for a 20 second unremovable 33% IAS which stacks with Rush. OK, stopping for 2 secs to reapply it is a pain and you can d-shot the prep, but once it's up that's crazily strong isn't it? Errr 13:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh it isn't terrible. Compare it to using a Conjure on a Warrior though, you net more raw damage out of the latter and can still stance into an attack speed buff. It is interesting for the ability to have move speed and attack speed up at once, ala Heart of Fury (which I think is weak) plus Dervish speed, or the Storm Djinn's Haste Conjure Warrior (he's fun as hell), I'm sure someone will run it somewhere. But I don't think it overshadows existing Warriors by any means, and it certainly isn't in the running for the most ridiculous skill on this list. Not when there's really new, dangerous stuff like Energy Blast or Anthem of Disruption or, yes, Smite Condition to play with. -Ensign 19:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The difference with a Conjure/SDH warrior is that both of those take an extra skill slot and make you lose utility (and SDH gimps your energy). RF on the other hand is a straight swap for Frenzy/Flail, so you don't lose anything (except your Strength or Tactics, but that usually doesn't matter). But OK, maybe it's just very strong rather than ridiculous. Errr 08:19, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Takes an extra skill slot? Since when was 'stacks with other skills you want on your bar', instead of replacing them directly, a drawback? "Oh, woe is me, I have to spend two skill slots on Conjure Element and Frenzy on this bar to get the benefits of each!" I'm sure Warriors cry themselves to sleep at night over that. Because it would be a direct replacement and not another stacking ability, you're suggesting that Rapid Fire is so much better than Frenzy or Flail that it's worth not only dedicating your secondary to, but dumping a ton of attribute points into as well? I'm not even convinced it would be an upgrade without the costs. -Ensign 10:30, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I take your point - but some very good warriors (e.g. Rau from Cry) never use Conjure specifically because they'd rather have an interrupt, another KD or some other utility in that skill slot. Also, look at hammer warriors. OK, Conjure is less good with hammers than swords/axes because of the attack speed, but the fact is that you can't easily fit Conjure on a hammer bar anyway because you want both rush and enraging to maintain your pressure and allow you to flail without self-snaring (particularly, but not only, in builds using HB as well as an elite KD). But if you swap in RF, you no longer need enraging and can run e.g. Bull's, DH, Pulverizing, HB, Prot Strike/Mighty Blow/D-blow, RF, Rush, Res. OK, maybe it's not as imba as I originally suggested, but I think that's a big improvement on the same bar with Flail and Enraging Charge. Errr 11:50, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

My Sugesstions:

• While Using a Bow Only. Like dwarven battle stance for hammers.
• Give it a +1...5...7 or so bonus damage with arrows. Thanks for your time

Sword.wind. 17:00, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

More sweetness for my Rt/R. Thanks Izzy and all, but please look at those mesmer skills! My mesmer is the only sad character I have looking at these skills. :D --Redfeather 22:10, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, this is an awful, awful skill. You can use Frenzy on a Ranger so easily and safely. How is this any different? Oh right, it makes it so you can't use another preparation and you have to spend 2 seconds to activate it. Maybe the problem is that IAS is just not helpful for a Ranger. Was Tiger's Fury ever useful for Bow Rangers when it was +33%? Besides, how much more DPS can you get from this instead of using Read the Wind for +10 on all your attacks? --TimeToGetIntense 22:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Frenzy hasn't been that much of an option on rangers since the Expertise nerf (eats 2 out of 3 energy pips, bow attack speed makes zealous mods fairly useless), but it's better than this simply because it's not a Preparation. In response to above, Rapid Fire (33% attack speed boost) modifies your damage to 1.5x the original, and AFAIK only Kindle Arrows at high WS attributes and Glass Arrows are in the same ballpark, Apply Poison beats all of them if used on 2 or more targets. Making the attack speed boost over 33% only for bows or giving it a bit of +dmg (again only for bows) would make Rapid Fire a worthy single target DPS preparation, whereas Glass Arrows will be used for spiking. --84.250.16.99 23:18, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I like this suggestion. Make it bow only. ChaoticCoyote 02:40, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Rangers aren't supposed to do high DPS anyway. This skill is dumb. --TimeToGetIntense 04:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't actually see this as a benefit for DPS. Use this with a short bow, Broad Head Arrow, and maybe something to give a cover condition for the Dazed, and you have a decent way to shut down a caster. It's a lot cheaper on energy than bringing Needling Shot, and it does not have the requirement that the target be under 50% health. 12.21.92.146 15:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

By the way, Izzy just mentioned that, although the description doesn't reflect it, this skill is for bows only. So while any class can use this well, they'll need to be using a bow for it. I'm happy to see this; my Ranger can already spike and whatnot, some good, solid DPS will be a really nice bonus for me. -- Jioruji Derako.> 20:04, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

this is a Preparation, not a Stance like Tiger Stance, that means it has 2 sec activation every freaking time (not overpowered)

Not sure how much play you'll see out of this. I like what you're doing to Marksmanship (for people saying stuff like 'rangers aren't meant to DPS', well half their skill set is actually made for that with nearly all of Marksmanship and Beastmastery, it just didn't work before) and making it an alternative to the common Ranger builds that focus more on WS and interrupts. We used DPS Ranger before to have a good DPS attacker with very strong interrupts, and it's nice, but they lacked a little something to be worth it. The thing is though, when i compare this preparation to Expert's Focus, i can't see myself using this, ever. The other gives you +damage and energy reduction on attack skills, so you can use your bow attacks a lot more, and you can easily use a stance to get that 33% IAS anyway. So i just can't see this seeing much play at all, because Marksmanship builds will want Expert's Focus over this quite likely because even with high Expertise bow attacks end up taking a lot of energy. Adding some +damage on top might be worth it, but even then i'm not sure i'd want it. The best would very likely be to switch it to a stance, which would be great (still working only with bows). It has the same recharge as Natural Stride, and alternating both would make for great Marks rangers, and i don't really see how that'd be overpowered really. Bows are very slow without IAS for Marks builds, just compare them to spears that have nearly the same damage (little less accurate, but still). I'm getting tired of having to use stuff like Flail on Marks rangers, but i would never sacrifice my Prep slot for IAS when other options exist. Turn this into a stance (could likely lower duration as such, keep 12s recharge but have something like 1..13..17 duration), and with Rapid Fire + Expert's Focus, you'll have succeeded in making Marksmanship Rangers a truly viable and interesting option Patccmoi 22:20, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I am guessing this is to encourage the use of shortbows.--Shadetz X 10:19, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Shortbows already attack fast, why would you want to make it attack even faster? Shortbows are already pretty much useless except for interrupting bosses. The point of a ranger is to stay away from the danger, not right in its face. --Lou-Saydus 05:22, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Bows

According to Izzy on Talk:Eye of the North skills, this skill only affects attacks made with bows. -- Gordon Ecker 23:10, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

As it should be, although A/Rs with this and Way of the Warrior are still going to be taking our jobs. Arshay Duskbrow 04:18, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Landing criticals like crazy was nevr our job to begin with... I see it as Assassins doing their job, but just using a Ranger's tools to do it. -- Jioruji Derako.> 07:23, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you use Critical agility and Disrupting Accuracy instead of RF. Of course, if you know you're gonna face mobs with enchant removal, rapid fire is superior. 69.156.8.80 23:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Overpowered as a Skill?

Would this skill be overpowered as a skill (like troll unguent)? As people have previously mentioned the preparation prevents you from using this with kindle arrows etc, which was probably intentional to prevent abuse but is it really that powerful? The attack speed of the bow isn't too fast to begin with and with stances out there which already give this effect + a preparation where is the niche for this?Dancing Gnome 08:08, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

As a simple Skill, it would basically function as Tiger's Stance or Rampage as One, without the pet requirements, high energy costs, or attack skill restrictions. The only downside would be Bows-only, and even with that, it would blow just about everything else away... keeping it as a Prep allows them to really go nuts with the duration and whatnot, and not have to worry about it turning into some insane DPS engine. -- Jioruji Derako.> 08:11, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Skill:Barrage. BLASTEDT 14:35, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, as a skill, it would be overpowered. As it is right now it is completely useless, at least as long as you use a bow with it, which seems to be required. As i mentioned in another talk page already, rangers need their preparations to buff the bows shitty natural dps. Shortbow has a dps of 10,75, compared to the one handed spear of 13,66. If you use your preparation for ias, every paragon will easily outdamage you and will have to offer a nice range of party support on top of that too.

134.130.183.235 16:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

it doesn't matter, paragons don't have the dps skills that rangers have and are easily defeated in that manner especialy w/o

the degen that a ranger can provide much more easily

Needling Shot spam ftw ----InfestedHydralisk 17:53, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

What if it shot more than one arrow at a time? It would probably be a lot like barrage but it hits the one target more than once, like a preparation version of dual shot. You can't use preparations to add bonus damage, I guess you can use conjure and rit skills which might ruin things a bit, I havn't tested them as they are. It seems to fit with the theme of the skill and is a little more interesting than a IAS imho. When you can use stances for IAS + Preparations I don't think I would use this skill as it is. If it was changed to a stance I guess it would become overpowered. I guess the balance on Tiger's Fury is its in Beast Mastery in the first place. The biggest drawback to this skill is its preparation, you can make the IAS as shiny as you want but without being able to use their other preparations I don't believe this skill will be as valuable. Dancing Gnome 19:25, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Don't know what you are talking about. They can very easily apply bleeding and they can apply burning without an elite, unlike rangers. They lack poison, but then a ranger needs either an elite or a preparation or a pet here too. Plus they more than make up for it with their deep wound attacks. So your only ranger dps skill left would be needling shot, and that only supports my point that you can't play a dmg ranger without a dmg preparation, because especially if you use needling shot you really don't wanna use this one over read the wind or glass arrow. 134.130.183.235 06:04, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Primal Rage?

omfgwtfbbqhax

It'll porbably get used with assassins more often... Critical Eye, Way of the Warrior, Way of the Assassin... of course, Disrupting Accuracy's a better option, for that idea, but still, speed's fun. -- Jioruji Derako.> 23:49, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Critical Agility :) --Deathwing 23:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

True, but if you wanted to use a critical barrager in PvP for some strange reason... -- Jioruji Derako.> 00:38, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Moved from Talk:List of Eye of the North skills

I'm totally ok with this on rangers, but it should be limited to them, so it works only on arrows and not for thumpers, assassins etc.

It's on marksmanship, a totally useless attribute if you don't use a bow, and it has 2 secs casting time. Any assassin will still want to use tiger fury. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:213.140.6.120 .

It's Marksmanship. It takes 2 seconds to apply. It reqs /R or R/

This only works with bows. ~Izzy @-'---- 19:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Needs being made that it Requires a Bow to use. 82.163.43.17 15:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)Sophitia

It all ready it although the description doesn't reflect that. ~Izzy @-'---- 19:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

From prep to stance

I think this skill would have more use as a stance. This is for rangers wanting to take the "dark path" and go from a blocking stance ( or whatever) to even more focus dmg speed. It would make a great alternative to other stances. As a prep, it probably won't win any ranger over as RTW or glass arrows still reign supreme. Obviously this skill is "bow-only" --71.164.131.254 04:18, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

It could go well with non-prep damage boosts. Conjures, Orders, Barbs, Vampiric, even Paragon damage boosting shouts. Also helps if you can manage to daze your target, this will let you attack more often, and interrupt more often. If Strike as One gets its needed buff, this skill even helps with that. --Deathwing 04:30, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I know, but do you really want to have to go down another attribute line just for your dmg stance? It would weaken us imo. I believe that Rapid Fire should be either a stance or a skill. A skill called "rapid fire" being a "prep" doesn't even make sense imho --71.164.131.254 16:59, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Then it is just another boring IAS stance. 33% IAS makes you attack 50% faster I've read somewhere. Now assuming you have high marksmanship, Read the Wind adds 10 damage per attack. Using a Recurve Bow, you will attack every 2.4 seconds. With high marksmanship, your attacks should be averaging over 20 damage per attack. 30(with RtW) damage a hit at 2.4 seconds is 12.5 DPS. 20 damage a hit at 1.6 seconds is 12.5 DPS. Rapid Fire breaks even with Read the Wind damage-wise when you are averaging 20 damage per hit, anything higher and Rapid Fire wins for damage. Granted, you can use an IAS stance with RtW, but that is comparing two skills to one. --Deathwing 17:54, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

That's the point, the fact that you can use a dmg prep in the marks attribute line with an IAS stance. Plus, 33%# IAS does not equal 50% faster attack lol, that means the same thing. It would be even better if this was a skill like troll unguent--71.164.131.254 02:40, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, 33% ias is 50% so "lol" Oh, and learn how to edit plz --Deathwing 03:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

33% IAS basically translates to a 33% decrease in attack delay, which results in 50% more swings. Got it? Good. Let's not insult anyone over this now. -- Jioruji Derako.> 10:17, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree this would be better as a stance. Despite my comments above, this is really not something I'd use with all the other good preps available. However, it won't happen, for the same reasons that Tiger's/Bestial Fury got nerfed. If it kept the bows-only, maybe then... Arshay Duskbrow 20:41, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, plz consider this Izzy--71.164.131.254 02:40, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Made a big post a little above to suggest that too. Basically, 33% IAS can be gotten from many different source (though none really nice for a Ranger, you can still do it) while your Prep slot is unique. And for damage bow rangers, i think that Expert's Focus will actually replace Read the Wind, because -2E means pretty much 50% less cost on those 10E bow attack skills, so you can spam them twice as much. I can't see Rapid Fire really competing with that. It would also prevent it from being used with Barrage and Volley, but i think that might be the main reason why it's a prep atm. But since you can easily Barrage in 33% IAS using Flail, i don't think that's a valid reason Patccmoi 15:56, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, as I said on the Expert Focus page, Read the Wind will still be used for the flight speed buff, which helps greatly with any bow, and especially for interrupts. That's not to say it won't be useful though, it will be. Arshay Duskbrow 03:40, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Is it possible that this is set as a prep specifically so that it can't be used with barrage?

Wouldn't matter anyway. Barrage is limited because of the 1 second recharge. --Deathwing 23:13, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Translation Suggestions

To avoid some bad skill translations i'm opening a comment for new skills so everybody can post their translation suggestions in various languages, have fun :) --YukoIshii 23:29, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Italian: Fuoco Rapido --YukoIshii 23:29, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

This is broken

It works on everything, not just bows. 84.9.57.220 22:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Confirmed. +anomaly --  (CoRrRan / talk) 13:18, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Not sure if it's really an anomaly at this point... technically, it matches it's own description. It just doesn't match Izzy's comment, but he could have reconsidered making it bows-only and not mentioned it. -- Jioruji Derako.> 13:24, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

1. The anomaly tag perhaps gets the skill noticed by A.Net (they keep an eye on Category:Bugs and Category:Anomalies).
2. The name implies something that can be fired. Swords cannot be fired, hence the {{anomaly}}-tag IMO.
3. Talk:Rapid_Fire#Moved_from_Talk:List_of_Eye_of_the_North_skills --  (CoRrRan / talk) 13:28, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I already knew about what Izzy said... but you're right about the "Fire" part, it's obviously meant to work with bows only.

On a slightly related note; This + Feral Aggression + pet + Broad Head Arrow. Complete shutdown, got 9 consecutive wins in RA with it in a team with no monk, and my build with no healing. Any opposing team with a monk was basically missing a teammate for the duration of the match. :P -- Jioruji Derako.> 13:40, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I suppose it's not intended, but i can't really see how it could be an oversight when Izzy said himself here 'it works only with bows'. I mean, it must've been tested before! Either way though, i'd be fine with it working on all weapons if it was raised to 15E (this way only R/X could truly use it, for other classes it would be waaaay too costy for a short duration IAS). If it stays with the current stats though, it must work with bows only. And considering Expert's Focus is not nearly what i expected it to be, i'm fine with this being a prep. This and Favorable Winds tends to be better than some IAS stance and RtW for Marks rangers. Patccmoi 13:46, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

To be fair, how many other professions can afford to spec into their weapon mastery and Marksmanship for an IAS that has a 2sec cast time? But yes, it sounds like it should be bows-only, it looks like it should be bows-only, and Izzy said it would be bows-only... yet it's not. I suppose, if anything, that's worthy of the anomaly tag. -- Jioruji Derako.> 14:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I hope it gets changed to 15e and left as it currently is, bugged and all. This would give Rangers a verifiable advantage that would let them use something like an /A secondary much more effectively. - Vermain 01:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Should make it Bow only both in use and skill description :) Ghostun 01:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Not broken, it does not specify weapon. :) (-Anom)-File:Drago-sig.gif Drago 23:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I just found another bug, it doesn't work with shortbows. 81.216.254.222 16:40, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Skill fixed in the last update, BTW: Sarcasm on: Oh! why not just make it: ... you attack 33% faster, cannot be used with daggers! Sarcasm off. lol! they nerfed warriors skills as hell because assassins, now they temporary added a way to have +33% atack speed in an assassin for up to 21 seconds!!! oh, and because is a preparation you was able to use a stance at the same time, plus preparation is unremovable. -NeHoMaR 09:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I only play ele & necro but why the hell was this changed to only affect bows now ? If you can put 12 points into marskmanship you deserve it. By that logic we can nerf mending since it works with any class. 5 September 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.133.61.141 (talk • contribs) 12:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC).

B/c it's called rapid fire ffs, oh ya, let me rapid fire my daggers, rotfl,. Of course it's gonna be bow only.

Please read this section and note how Izzy states that this skill was designed to only work with bows, and that the skill when implemented in EotN was broken and needed to be fixed. --  (CoRrRan / talk) 10:41, 5 September 2007 (UTC)