Talk:Sf

SF = Searing Flames, but also Sorrow's Furnace. Does this warrant a disambig-page? --  (CoRrRan / talk) 10:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Disambig pages get stupid really fast, as evidenced from GWiki. Best to keep it a redirect; only select few people call Sorrow's Furnace SF, and they all know which SF they're talking about given the context of the discussion. If anything, we should add a note on the Searing Flames page saying "SF redirects here. If you were looking for the green-farming area in the southern shiverpeaks, see [[Sorrow's Furnace]]." Or something to that effect. -Auron 11:00, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to disagree. SF is a very, very common abbreviation for both Sorrow's Furnace and Searing Flames. A disambig page is entirely appropriate in this case. (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 11:34, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Auron, the template you're referring to would be {{Otheruses}} I guess. I see Aiiane already changed the page. Personally (from my more PvP'ish background), I think I would have chosen to go with the {{Otheruses}}-template over a disambig, but I guess SF is used quite frequently in PvE and thus warrants a disambig-page. --  (CoRrRan / talk) 12:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I didn't know a template existed for it, but whatever. Sorrow's Furnace died out well over a year ago, it's nowhere near common. All the PvErs don't spend their time grinding "SF" anymore, because it isn't anywhere near profitable. Even when I say "SF" to my PvE-only friends, they all think "searing flames," not "sorrow's furnace." Searing Flames is by far the more common use, and I support the otheruses template... as does CoRrRan, evidently. -Auron 13:59, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I still know a number of people who refer to SF in discussions and are referencing Sorrow's Furnace. They're both major game features, and neither one clearly supersedes the other, thus I find a disambig page appropriate. Please don't speak for "all the PvEers" when what you mean are "the PvEers I know". (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 21:18, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention, {{Otheruses}} really doesn't work very well for an abbreviation redirect anyways - someone who types "Searing Flames" into the search box certainly doesn't care about Sorrow's Furnace, so why should they see a notice about "may also refer to Sorrow's Furnace"? Only people who type "Sf" should see anything beyond the article - and that's exactly what the disambig page does. Otheruses is designed for non-redirect pages. (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 21:23, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Just for you, I went to Ascalon City, Lion's Arch, Kaineng Center, Kamadan, and Kodash Bazaar, and polled 100 people. 86 people said SF meant searing flames, 9 people said Sorrow's Furnace, 1 person said Shadow Form, and 4 said they had no idea what it meant. I think it's pretty clear that SF most commonly means Searing Flames. Based on this overwhelming poll, I'm going to change it to a otheruse template tomorrow if no good reasons pop up that say otherwise. -Auron 23:13, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Did you even pay attention to my second point? The otheruses template doesn't even make sense for abbreviation redirects. I'd consider that a "good reason". (Specifically, the way the otheruses template is designed means that it only makes sense in context if the term with multiple meanings is that actual page title - not a term that has been redirected to another article, as there are many other ways to reach that article that do not involve the term with multiple meanings.) The meaning of "Searing Flames" is not ambiguous, thus the otheruses template does not belong on that page, so unless you can find a way to put otheruses to good effect on a redirect page (which I doubt), disambig makes much more sense. (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 03:28, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

On a side note, GuildWiki's page for 'Sf' [1] is exactly as the current version here is - and it's hardly "gotten stupid really fast" - in fact, it's been entirely stable outside of minor formatting changes for over 6 months. I fail to see where you're getting that argument from. (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 03:39, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I agree with Aiiane on this. The {{otheruses}} template really doesn't fit the situation when an abbreviation redirect is involved - if anything, I thinks it adds to confusion and is likely to get removed by good intentioned users.

In this case, I support the use of a disambiguation page here. For reference, using a disambig is the standard solution on Wikipedia and GuildWiki both for this type of situation - specifically because it fits better than any other option. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 04:14, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Clarification: I support SF being a disambiguation. I support deleting Sf because it's redundant and not needed. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 04:15, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Aiiane, may I direct you to [2], and specifically how it was before I cleaned it up? -Auron 04:22, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I'd hardly call that "stupid". The commonly referred to ones are clearly indicated and easy to find, there's really no harm in allowing another link to happen to be on the page for less common uses. (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 11:35, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Rather than delete, can't we just redirect this to SF? -- ab.er.rant 07:19, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

We can, I could care less either way - but there's another issue here that needs to be resolved separately or it'll probably just play out on the SF talk page. (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 11:45, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

It can be a redirect, but it's not needed. If this is deleted, and someone keys "Sf" into the search box, the MediaWiki software's logic will try matching to an all lower-case and an all caps version of the search term, and find SF automatically even without the redirect. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 14:49, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I can appreciate both arguments here, and I fall somewhere in between. On the one hand I see the merit of redirecting SF to Searing Flames if, as Auron suggests, 86% of people think SF stands for Searing Flames. That said I can also see that it doesn't make a great deal of sense to redirect someone to Searing Flames if they are looking for Sorrow's Furnace.

I think that, considering this is an abbreviation, I'm personally going to err on the side of caution and say that it doesn't make a great deal of sense to use {{otheruses}} in this context, and a disambig page is the more attractive solution.

If there was some clear evidence that only a very small percentage (i.e. <5%) of readers thought SF stood for Sorrow's Furnace then I might change my opinion, since it seems a waste of resources to present a disambig page when virtually no one will use it. LordBiro 16:25, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I think they are equally as notable. Searing Flames may be popular, but Sorrow's Furnace has been around a long time. It also is contextual. If a guildy asks if I want to do SF I will assume he's talking about the location unless we are specifically discussing builds. - BeX 17:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC)