User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Overpowered Skills/Dervish/Archive 2

Avatar of Melandru

I feel that being immune to all conditions is overpowered. Being immune to Cripple, Blind and Weakness makes this character hard to defend from, and being immune to Deep Wound, Bleeding, Poison and Burning makes it hard to kill. Deep Wound is involved in most kills, I believe. It is, afterall, ~120 virtual damage against most characters. I think Melandru should either be immune to conditions that shut down melee, or conditions that help kill/pressure. Cripple, Blind and Weakness seems a better way to go, to me. I think if this skill does not see a nerf, it will be overplayed again in GW:EN. --TimeToGetIntense 22:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I think the Avatar itself is less of an issue than Wearying Strike, which could still use a recharge increase, damage reduction, and weakness duration reduction to allow non-Mel's dervishes to use it more. (Oh, and DW is capped at 100 dmg btw.) Errr 22:44, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

DW isn't capped at 100 damage. Guild Lords still lose 20% of their 2400 health off it. EDIT: Just tested on student of deep wounds. Looks like I was wrong. Still, it's much harder to get kills on Melandru dervs simply because they can't be DW'd. --TimeToGetIntense 22:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I feel since a good while that Melandru's concept is just wrong. Being immune to conditions forces the metagame too much to deal with it. When you look at current insane pressure builds like 3 Veil bonded Melandru Derv, it really shows the problem. They're damn hard to spike, and immune to too much of the shutdown options. But my main concern is with GW:EN skill list, because a LOT of the new anti-physical stuff seems based on weakness, and mostly extremely spammable weakness, and the best answer to that is obviously to run Melandru. And then you have stuff like Disarm that's extremely strong anti-warrior since it empties adrenaline but then weak overall against Dervish as you just delay their attack skills for a few seconds at best. I feel that Izzy's against tweaking Melandrus too much since it's about the only Derv build seeing play in GvG, but something is just wrong with how it works atm imo. I really prefer all the suggestions to make Melandru instead remove conditions from himself very fast (for example, every time you use a skill or hit with an attack you lose a condition, or conditions on you last 50% less and you lose one on every attack skill) instead of being flatout immune. This screws up too much and mostly 'forces' the metagame too much. Makes many interesting skill not viable options simply because if you end up vs Melandrus and your build relies on conditions in the least to control melee, you're dead. Patccmoi 23:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

It's An interesting debate but in the end Melandru has such insane costs, interesting play, and just overall has a neat feel to it, I know it outshines warriors in the current meta for a number of reasons, but destroying it by reworking the skill rather then looking for ways to balance it only removes diversity from the game. If we reduce everything down to 4 skills you have Dodge ball, which is fun in it's own right but it's not guild wars. Trade offs are the key, I honestly am pretty happy with the trade offs of Melandru, I think the synergy with Imbue, and Weary strike are more the source of the problem then much else. ~Izzy @-'---- 07:55, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I haven't found immunity to conditions to be that big of a deal, you can use many things to cut down condition time considerably... Recovery, Featherfoot Grace, Runes of Clarity, and those such runes... inscriptions to cut down condition time... There's plenty of skills that reduce condition time, though the only real "immunity" combinations I can think of is Avatar of melandru, Spirit of Recovery and Featherfoot Grace, and Infuse condition (assuming you have minions) But honestly, aside from the danger of Fragility, cutting down the duration of conditions considerably is nearly as effective as being entirely immune to them. --Devvu

In a spike, immunity to Deep Wound is priceless. Then there's the immunity to Blind, no matter what they try and do. Condition reduction also has a limit (at least according to Izzy), and even then, you can apply blind and deep wound if your team is good enough, and either spike it down or shut it down at precise moments. --Kale Ironfist 09:44, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Izzy. All I'm saying is, we should either be able to kill Melandru OR be able to blind/cripple/weaken it. It would still have a unique appeal if it was immune to certain sets of conditions. It's easier to spike down Warriors right now. This is honestly the hardest character to kill, hands down. --TimeToGetIntense 21:57, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Melandru's is still be far the best Dervish elite in the game. By allowing it to continue to be so good you effectively reduce dervishes to one elite. Melandru's is also incredibly cheap for its effects. It is the best offensive elite because it combos well with wearying strike and makes you immune to blind. It is the best defensive elite because it gives you 150 extra health and immunity to conditions. You could completely remove the health bonus and people would still run it. The melandru's situation needs addressed on two fronts. First melandru's does need nerfed a bit. Second, almost all the other elites need a buff. The high offense dervs should be leaning towards skills like reaper's sweep and wounding strike, not melandru. -Warskull 04:00, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Gotta agree with what Warskull said. The fact that Wearying Strike in Melandru is actually a superior skill to Reaper's Sweep and Wounding Strike is pretty bad too (and not only Wearying needs a nerf, those could also use some sort of buff). And seriously Melandru is killing diversity much more than it's helping it. I'm mostly worried with GW:EN skills released atm. Because there's a lot there SERIOUSLY hurting warriors. With Cracked Armor, warriors will become FAR easier to spike down than Melandru Dervs, having less AL, less health, and can get DWed. With skills like Withering Aura (and all the weakness spam in general, there's a lot of skills that seem made for it) that can make warriors having a nightmare doing any sort of DPS, Melandrus on the other hand won't care. With Disarm that will make Hammer Warriors cry because they can't ever manage to fully charge their elite since it empties adrenaline every 12s or so, Melandru Dervs won't care about it as it's more likely to simply disable attack skills already on recharge. Nearly all GW:EN anti-physical additions will severly hurt warriors but leave Melandru Dervishes intact. This can only kill diversity once it happens. And when the balancing part is something like 'well people won't bring those skills cause they'll fight Melandrus and the skills suck against them and so you can bring warriors', it becomes far too much RPS for interesting games and Melandrus will simply dominate. The trade-offs are honestly not keeping the skill in check, and unless you do something like you did to Grenth with it (seriously hitting the duration so that it's just a temporary buff and not a long buff that can last a full push), it will stay the only Derv elite used or nearly and will become even far more powerful as GW:EN comes out and the mass weakness + cracked armor condition come into play. 24.202.127.119 04:39, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Part of the problem, I think, lies on how this is one of the few things that a Dervish does better than a Warrior. If you nerf this skill, what is going to be left that a Dervish may do and that a Warrior wouldn't do better? I don't think it's a matter of tweaking skills - even if the current Dervish Elites were buffed, I think that would not change how the Warrior's role would just take precedence over anything the Dervishes may do. Avatar of Grenth used to prevent that, but all that does so now is Avatar of Melandru. Erasculio 04:58, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

If only one skill saves the whole Dervish class, then there is some much needed buffs to be done along with the nerf, that's all. For example a good 1/4th or 1/3rd of their skill are about applying enchants and stripping them, but the whole mechanic sucks because the skills doing it were overnerfed. Now Grenth's Aura is one that will be interesting, FINALLY an enchant with an interesting effect when you strip it. When you compare it to the others doing something like 3 seconds of blind to adjacent foes, a Nearby AOE enchant strip is soooo much more powerful it's not even funny, especially if you can combine it with Pious Fury. If the other skills having this mechanic can be buffed again, then maybe Dervishes can do something else that'll be more unique. And with Pious Fury, Avatar of Balthazar might actually see play. It's the Dervish avatar that is the least dependant on enchants out of Heart of Fury (because your AL is covered and your move speed is covered) and you could have one that is flatout independant on any enchant and a permanent 33% IMS + 33% IAS thing swinging a scythe and stripping enchants with stuff like Rending Touch/Grenth's Aura can be quite nasty.

Dervishes do have some advantages over warriors out of Melandru, mainly when it comes to enchant stripping and their ability to heal others (Imbue for instance, which i truly hope won't be nerfed in order to 'not nerf Melandru'. It's one of the few skills actually giving Dervishes something unique), but nearly all the skills doing so are underpowered and so you don't really make builds out of them. Dervishes are in need of a rework the same way Assassins and Rts were in the past, with a big list of buffs and a few nerfs/rework to the overpowered skills like Melandru. As i said before, personally the thing i'd focus on is make all those 'put enchant on, strip them for an effect' skill be viable option by reducing their energy cost and recharge and possibly improving effects a bit, make Wind Prayers less costy because it's crazy how much it costs to play around with a Wind build and reduce the randomness of it a bit too (too many random stuff in there that you can't rely on, and stuff like Mystic Healing could see much more play if it was something like heals you + 1 random party member within earshot per enchant so that it can be a reliable self-heal, etc.), give a viable non-elite DW alternative to non-Melandru Dervs. I'm fine with Dervs having no kd/interrupt, at worse they can use a secondary for it, but their advantages, which mostly are in healing, AOE damage/condition application and enchant control need to be made good enough that you could want them over another warrior. Because Melandrus are more of a warrior than a Dervish overall, i mean many use Rush, DBlow, Wild Blow, Wearying Strike, Heart of Fury... basically the only skills that they use that aren't something a warrior can do are Imbue Health and Melandru ofc, which is basically there to turn a Dervish into a condition immune warrior. But nearly all the unique stuff to Dervish isn't being used at all, because the skills are vastly underpowered atm and you just can't make a good 8 skills build out of them. Patccmoi 14:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with everything you said - but frankly, I would feel better if the Dervishes were buffed so they actually have a role in PvP other than being Avatar of Melandru warriors first, and then AoM was nerfed. Doing it the other way around could end with dervishes that have been buffed but that don't really find a role in PvP, or that only find a role within gimmick builds (Ritualists, I'm looking at you). Erasculio 15:16, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion here, since the synergy with Imbue and Wearying is the primary problem, why not disallow spellcasting while in Melandru's form? I don't have an answer for Wearying but I think that disallowing spellcasting at least fixes one broken aspect of the most popular current build. --Pork soldier 00:02, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

The problem with Melandru is that it's so hard to kill and so hard to shut down. Those are the parts of it that make it so imbalanced. Being able to heal every 10 seconds or inflict a deep wound aren't big problems. I think Wearying should be changed, but that's really secondary to the condition immunity. --TimeToGetIntense 21:26, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Elite Form. For 10...58...70 seconds, you have +100 Health, Conditions on you expire 50% faster, and you gain 25 armor against elemental damage. This Skill is disabled for 120 seconds. Theres my suggestion. --Deathwing 03:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

you want to increase build diversity but your attempt to do i think is wrong. The melandrus dervish is unparalled since it was released because there are NO other frontline characters that are immune to anti frontline conditions like blind and cripple and weakness. Whats more, immunity to deep wound and extra health makes the melandrus dervish practically impossible to spike when in form. One balancing mechanism for frontlines characters like warriors is that if they are caught overextended they can easily be punished with a swift and ruthless spike. You can extend to hearts content while under melandru form. In order to encourage build diversity you need the game to have multiple alternatives of achieving a similiar task, no 1 solution should stand out above the rest. Unfortunately the melandrus dervish stands heads and shoulders above ALL other alternatives in the face of Bsurge midlines. Even the addition of spotless soul will not make warriors an equal because it does not confer total immunity to conditions. The existence of skills that confer immunity to game mechanics like hexes, conditions, attacks etc are few and far between, but with most of them they are balanced by their long recharges. Unfortunately the synergy between the melandru form and wearying strike is and will always be an overpowered one in relation to all other options. Sure you have added the melandrus dervish as an frontline option because of its immunity to conditions but its this immunity that is preventing other options from being considered. You didnt increase diversity at all... its crippled. I really like the suggestion above me btw, a melandrus dervish of that nature would still be a fine measure against Bsurge midlines but not so much as to overshadow all other frontliners87.194.81.41 18:00, 30 July 2007 (UTC)Lorekeeper

If the synergy with wearying strike is the problem, make it so that Melandru only prevents conditions caused by foes. That way it's still imba enough not to be blinded/deep wound/crippled but wearying can't be spammed without condition removal. Ledah 12:00, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

This skill turns you into a walking tree, and you CAN'T burn because...? --Ckal Ktak 13:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I lol'd. Needs more double burning duration, that would be really, really funny :P --Tankity Tank 16:28, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it turns you into a damp walking tree :D. -- Gordon Ecker 00:18, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Because by Melandru's power, all the conditions on you will heal up as soon they are applied. Lightblade 19:21, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Most players would run Melandru even if it had no health bonus. The synergy with wearing is ok...i mean, bad players spam it when the avatar's down, and good players can't use it when the avatar is down. The whole being unkillable aspect of the skill is why it's the most used avatar in competitive play. I personally would lower the cost, but get rid of the health bonus. Shard 04:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The fact that it is the most popular elite does not mean that Dervishes can't use any other elites. It's up to your party and build what they want/need. I've played in GvG with Reaper's Sweep and Wounding Strike succesfully. - IH 19:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, I've won gvgs using 8 mending wammos...successfully. Just because you CAN win doesn't mean your build is good. There are other elites for dervs to run, but most of them are crap. People run melandru because it is extremely hard to kill them while their team is up. Shard

I think immunity to conditions on a Melandru is good, except for burning, it just doesn't make sense. If it was made that any fire dmg set a melandru on fire for x seconds it might make a difference.76.182.214.186 05:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Why not make Melandru work like Dwayna does, and remove a condition on skill use?68.82.216.207 03:15, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

That's overnerf. It's worse than Mending Touch in that case. —ǥȓɩηɔɧ〚₮/ḉ〛 03:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Make it two conditions on skill use, this way you can deal with a cover condition, but you are not completely immune to conditions. I am not sure if Dwayna works like that too, but it should remove the conditions before the attack skills would hit. Shendaar 17:15, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Make Melandru remove 2 conditions per skill used, similiar to Dwayna. Tweak health back up to whatever feels balanced. Servant of Kali 09:13, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Making Melandru act like dwayna kills it..and while some would disagree, I don't think the point is to completely murder this skill. (not only are hexs harder to remove than conditions, but dwayna heals you: which would mke melandru weaker than dwayna....and dwayna is never used) I like the very simple idea of removing the health bonus, or at least, saccing the hell out of it, so it isn't some invincible-over-extending-demon-of-death...tree. You already can't dw the thing. Sword.wind. 21:38, 20 August 2007 (UTC) 21:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Dwayna heals, ok, and Melandru gives higher total health which is a good synergy with Imbue for instance. Look, I don't know, but quite honestly, total immunity to conditions is IMO a huge problem. I don't like it. And the only way to make it balanced is to Grenth it. I want to see some diversity on a Dervish, everyone is playing one single build for half a year. No class is as one-dimensional in GvG as Dervish is atm; hell I feel even Rt is more viable ;) Servant of Kali 22:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Nerf the fucking tree already. 84.136.254.62 21:45, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Feedback, reason?? this comment will go into the trashcan this way ~ Kurd 21:46, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

first: wrong page. see /Overpowered ones second: whatcha wanna do? remove the immune to conditions thingy? - Y0_ich_halt 21:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Decrease Duration to 20 seconds max, decrease recharge to 30 and give that fucking thing a 5 second cast. have fun with that. 84.136.254.62 21:50, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

it's about balancing. not kicking skills outta the game. - Y0_ich_halt 21:52, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Did you just see that they added Exhaustion to every Rit skill in use? 84.136.254.62 21:55, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

oot. - Y0_ich_halt 21:56, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

He's right though, several of those skills will likely dissapear from play... It was overkill and the tree is overkill in many situations. Howabout an added effect of giving degen instead of conditions. or something similar... i could come up with many creative ways to make the tree more balanced, but ppl already have and the last reply i heard was something along the lines of, "yea its overpowered but i like the concept of the skill..."... Not quite about balance if u look at it that way is it?--Midnight08 21:59, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

how bout this: (general avatar properties) You have +100hp and conditions on you last only 20% of their normal duration. 25 2 30(120) - Y0_ich_halt 22:03, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd be plenty happy with conditions expiring every 5 seconds during the durattion like the new monk skills, and the energy cost being decreased to 10 to compensate (and 45 uration as well). The problem with them is that 1/2 oof the shutdown and pressure is countered by one skill. Its the same problem that expose defense has when u look at it. Expose overrides all blocking, making it a bit overkill in the builds its use in. While AoM overcome's all conditions without effort. The skill needs to be looked at more creatively and for the good of the game. --Midnight08 22:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

more like this? (general avatar properties) You have +100hp, your attacks deal earth damage and you lose all conditions and hexes every 12...7...6 seconds. 25 2 30(120) - Y0_ich_halt 22:12, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

yea, something like that tho faster condition removal (10-5) would probably be enough--Midnight08 22:13, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

"Lose all conditions on you whenever you use a skill." But have it still work with self-conditioning skills. That is, you lose all conditions once the skill ends. The Derv would be affected by Deep-wound, and degen and blind on occasion, but versatility of it would remain pretty high.--Skye Marin 22:32, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

There is still some debate over nerfing these guys, I still want to nerf Weary strike, but well see how things go, I think there will need to be an update before GW:EN as the new skills are very condition heavy only further increasing the power of these guys. ~Izzy @-'---- 23:07, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Here is how I look at things Izzy. You are in a lose-lose situation. Nerf Melandru, then the point of running a Dervish become moot. Nerf Wearying, a class has just lost any way of doing a significant amount of damage. No matter what you do, you are bound to be shafted in the end. Nerf AoM, by making the other classes similar to it in strenth. Change the meta-game, or nerf everything, it is entirely your decision. I personally, think that changing the Meta, even though in the end might cause a bit of trouble, is at least interesting. Your move Izzy. Readem (talk*gwwcontribs) 06:17, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

What's wrong with restoring this skills +health back to 200, maybe add some elemental armour if you like as well. But replace "Immune to all conditions" with "You are considered a non-fleshy creature". --Ckal Ktak 11:23, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Cause all conditions you care about, like DW, Cripple and Blind, all work on non-fleshy creature? Trust me, nobody runs Melandru to counter bleeding or poison...

A nerf to Melandru doesn't mean Dervishes will disappear if it's made along with interesting Dervish buffs to other utility and if they give Dervishes a viable non-elite DW that works WITHOUT being Melandru, or if at least they make their elite DW more interesting. Dervishes have some pretty nice utility with mass condition in Nearby AOE, lots of enchant removal, some party healing, some Area AOE nuke, mass cripple, etc. that warriors can't do, but most of the skills are subpar, or end up costing too much when you have them all on the bar, and you can't make a solid bar out of them. But buffing the utility along with a Melandru nerf can keep Dervishes interesting and viable without being retarded unkillable trees that spam Eviscerate Patccmoi 19:47, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there's a debate on whether Avatar of Melandru needs to be nerfed - over on the Underpowered page, the ongoing debate seems to be on what happens afterwards, and whether the dervish is meant to deal big damage or provide utility. Right now, I'm on the "deal damage" end of the argument considering the skills like Chilling Victory, and because the utility like Grenth's Grasp is subpar. ~Seef II <☎|→> 19:17, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Responding to "Nerf Melandru, then the point of running a Dervish become moot. Nerf Wearying, a class has just lost any way of doing a significant amount of damage." - There are plenty of ways for Dervishes to do damage in melee...like just attacking. They get nonskill criticals up to 92. Their better attack skills can land 150+ damage. People are still too used to Nightfall's "kill sh*t with 2 skills" power creep right now. It will end when GWEN comes out with a better power creep. Smite Hex? Yeah I'll bet the Gods are really anxious about sending that Deep Wound to the Underworld. Shard 11:12, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Srsly, who posted this twice? lrn2readplxkthx Readem Sorry, I'll stop trolling now. 07:27, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

The unnecessary split has been removed. -- Gordon Ecker 07:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

As has been said, the problem isn't Melandru as much as lack of alternatives. If there were alternatives one could nerf Melandru properly. Let's look at Wind Prayers. Rending Aura for instance, is an interesting skill but completely useless because it's expected that enemy Dervish will be dueling you. Silly. Onslaugh, a skill with a very cool name and completely non-Dervish role. Any chance this one could be tweaked to be interesting and viable to Dervish? Pious Restraint seems cool though. As for Earth Prayers (no, I don't agree this should be PvE line) - the problem is that...well all these self-defense skills aint really team skills. They are interesting in a way, true, but skills should be tweaked with teamplay in mind not one-man-wammos. Armor of Sanctity is a nice skill, but I really doubt anyone would use a skill slot for this. I'm not quite sure how to fix this. If brainstorming, I'd say the only way to make these skills work is make them adjacent/nearby/aoe. Yes, something like Imbue Health, in a way that they would be quasi-monk skills, true. But that's really the only way I see it work. So, if AoSanctity had nearby range and worked on allies, with a short uptime and short recharge (to prevent long buffs), it could synergize nicely with Ebon Dust, meaning that Dervish would be more versatile. Same thing with Shield of Force. Sure, a nice skill, but wammoish. Wammoish skills dont reach real PvP, and even in RA they are bad. I'd put it so that when hit by an attack all nearby foes take dmg. Veil of Thorns is also wrong, it should have lower cast time, lower recharge and lower uptime as well as 5e cost. I know I've gone offtopic but meh ;) Servant of Kali 22:13, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

You were ever on topic o.O? Readem Warning: Ignore this User if at all possible. 05:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

OMG......that was a long read, and very entertaining :) OK, the added health plus immunity to all conditions is a bit to strong. That isn't the only issue, the cost is really unreasonable for the profession, yes it is justified by the effect, but still unreasonable for the profession. Breaking it's use with Wearying Strike really isn't a good move, because it is bread and butter for the Dervish.

I really think complete immunity to all conditions is too much of an advantage, it is a god avatar, so I can understand why even being a tree it doesn't burn. But the cost is unreasonable, and the effect is supreme and troublesome. So something like Deathwings idea is probably a good idea. 50% condition reduction is not nearly enough, half of the time is still often enough to be completely effected by repeating conditions, but at 75% or 80% reduction you can still be effected by conditions, and they will cause you to stumble momentarily, but it is not complete immunity. A momentary DW, a momentary Blind, even momentary Weakness, all offer minor but existing difficulty. Along with this, increase the duration to 10-74...90 and reduce the cost to 15 energy, and you have a skill which is much more reasonable for Dervish energy supply, last a bit long in compensation, and is nearly but not totally immune to conditions. Certain reapplying conditions can offer counters or at least effect this build, wearying strike will cut in weakness for 2 seconds, and dervish woln't have to take out a loan to use this again if DP wipes out their energy pool (and I know weapon swapping is an option).

I'm not on the band wagon with everyone else who is simply unhappy to see Melundru dominate, and dervish with a powerful option, all of the god spells offer powerful effects. But none of them should be completely dominate in such a way, Grenth can be blinded, Balthazar can get hit with Cracked Armor and Cripple, Lyssa..... well your getting a bargain there. Point is, Melundru should be a great, but not indominable effect, and 25 energy should not exist on the Dervish skill pool, so take some from the indominable power of this Avatar, and make it lasting and economic in return, it is a win win situation instead of a lose lose situation.--BahamutKaiser 06:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Have anyone thought how can Tree bleed or be wounded if tree isn't Fleshy. Same with Blind or Dazed. Tree can be only poisoned, burning or Diseased. Enar

The whole "people run Melandru because there aren't any good alternatives" thing is kind of ridiculous. It's PvP. There is an alternative: Run a different class. No one forces teams to slot a Dervish, then try to figure out what build to run on it. They evaluate the Melandru Dervish as being good for what they're doing, and slot that because it works, not because it's the best Dervish build.

Arguing that trees don't bleed or get blind is stupid, this is not a lore discussion, this is a balance discussion. It's like saying Decapitate should deal 900 damage because if I decapitate someone in real life, they die instantly.

Melandru is run because it takes a huge chunk of the counters to a melee frontliner and throws them out the window, and lets you run around spamming AOE Eviscerate. Broad elimination of counters tends to be very bad because it makes it easier for teams to deal with the remaining counters (i.e. the Veil-bonded Melandru steamroll teams) and then roll people with a relatively mindless offense. As long as it exists in its current form (unless it's kicked in the junk like Grenth was), this problem will continue. Riotgear 02:27, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying that every other Dervish elite is underpowered in PvP? -- Gordon Ecker 05:11, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Dunno. Wounding Strike might be good, but there's no way to tell when the tree is that much better. If they aren't good, buff them, or make the "support" enchantments less crap, but leaving an overpowered skill in because the class has other issues doesn't actually solve anything, it just creates more problems. Riotgear 19:04, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, every other Dervish elite is underpowered or at least worse than other frontline options. —ǥrɩɳsɧƿoɲ 18:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I can agree with that sentiment, Dervish should highlight other advantages, wile survival against large groups is one of Dervish highlights, it does have other significant features to accent instead. If giving up condition immunity isn't acceptable, perhaps the health bonus can be removed, it isn't like it needs both. Or since it is melundru, some of it's effects could be limited to when it isn't enchanted, a typical melundru trait, like the additional health only effects wile it isn't enchanted. I'm not particularly interested in the power being reduced, but the cost being reduced as well so it will be a more natural Dervish skill, and it would also benifit if Dervish stressed it's other advantages instead, AoE attack is a bit of an exageration considering it's ridiculously small spread and capped unit limit.--BahamutKaiser 19:54, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe "immune to degenerative Conditions" (Bleeding, Poison, Burning, Disease)? Now Wearying Strike isn't as scary and you can finally blind and cripple the thing. Health bonus can stay, that should be enough to keep Melandru good but not stupidly good. Oh and it's spikeable too with DW, though it'll have on the order of 670 health and 70 AL. ~Seef II <☎|۞> 18:22, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

All this needs is being brought back to grenth's level, increasing the health gain, and MAYBE lowering cost. I think people will still run it, just becouse it is so good(god) To avoid dangerous conditions like blind, cripple, and DW.

PLZ stop changing the builds that can be used with it and just lower the duration to 40 seconds for Melandrus this would balance the build making the dervishes only immune for a sensible amount of time so that once its off the immunity is gone. Btw im sick of ppl running builds with 5 dervishes and 2 prot monks. who needs heals when u got 5 imbues...--The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:150.176.182.29 .

This skill should just be like dwayna and you lose 1 condition everytime you use a skill, that way you would be able to bleed, cripple, deep wound, blind, poison, and set it on fire, for at least a little while.68.20.222.240 23:49, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I like a few of the above ideas that this should remove conditions on skill use. This would open up the use of cripple and possibly blind as temporary counters, whereas right now only hexes can touch a melandru dervish. It would also making DW spiking a viable way to get rid of them. Shard 09:53, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Agree with the idea to change the functionality to the same as Dwayna. Lose a condition everytime a skill is used. I don't mind if it is at the beginning, that keeps the Wearying Strike synergy alive in turn giving people a reason to run Melandru still. Lets not kill skills. --CRASH 04:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Old Topic, but still leave it as it is. The only avatar that can counter those Searing Flames spike. If you change it to where it removes conditions on skills than bring down the cost of it also.William Wallace 02:48, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Wearying Strike

This is basically a spammable eviscerate when used on a mel dervish(which also needs a nerf), not to mention the ability to hit THREE TARGERTS. Tone it down please--TheLordOfBlah 05:10, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, it's arguably (maybe even strictly) better than the two dervish DW elites, Reaper's Sweep and Wounding Strike. Lower +dmg, up the recharge, lower Weakness duration a la Ensign's suggestion and I'll sleep easier at night. ~Seef II <?> 06:10, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually it's a lot better than Eviscerate because it's on a scythe with a much higher crit value, it recharges more quickly and regardless of block or miss chance, and has the potential to explode teams by hitting multiple targets. -Ensign 06:22, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

This skill should basically do no +damage, or very little. Atm, in Melandru, it is strictly better overall than the 2 DW elite imo. It's non elite and spikes like hell with the potential as Ensign said to spike multiple people really hard. Wounding Strike on the other hand could do with some small +damage (something like +5..17), or an extra effect if the target already has DW (target gets DW. If target already has DW, deal +10..26 damage, or interrupt, etc.). Reaper's Sweep could do with a cooldown reduction to 4-5s considering its limitation in DW application. It would make it a good pressure skill, and a good finisher along with something like Mystic Sweep, instead of something you have to keep ready for if someone drops below 50% and hope you'll swing fast enough before they get healed because the recharge being too long means you don't want to waste it... It might vary offensive Dervishes some. Patccmoi 14:22, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree with Patccmoi (and Ensign too), especially when he's speaking about Reaper's Sweep and Wounding Strike that could be buffed (and i agree about the buffs he's suggested) ~~ Azul 13:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I think the tree deserves the nerf more than this.--Atlas Oranos 09:44, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

This is the worst possible nerf candidate of all, lol. No Wearying, no DW. No DW, no frontline class. People will not waste their elite on Wounding/Reaper's...speaking Warriors would always be better in that case. Readem Sorry, I'll stop trolling now. 07:25, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem isn't Wearying, it's Melandru. Wearying should be restored (read: buffed) to what it was before, and Melandru should be tweaked with health increased back to 200 and remove 2 conditions when a skill is used. Something like it. Adjust cost and uptime. Servant of Kali 14:20, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Restored to what? when was it nerfed? What are you talking about?--67.164.57.110 23:51, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

It had a two second recharge awhile ago.--Atlas Oranos 00:13, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I think people are seriously overlooking that Dervish doesn't have any option to use DW unless they use an elite, unlike other professions. It is costing them an elite to use most of their DW attacks, and it cost them an elite to avoid weakness wile executing DW with this attack. The fact that Dervish is using an Elite to deal DW, either directly or indirectly says something.

I already suggested a rehash of Melundru, based on its function with dervish and not this skill alone, and I do agree this could be toned down a little bit. But overall, neither skill should be shutdown, a tiny bit off of both is good, and in general, the same function will still occur with little setback. Simply taking 5 damage away and setting recharge time at 8 would be fine, or alternately, increase the weakness time to 15 seconds along with the change suggested for Melundru, one or the other.

Either way, the general advantage of this skill combination with Melundru should not be removed, professions are suppose to have skill synergy with certain moves to make advantagious builds, there really should be more powerful builds out there, and running this against a current baseline is a setup for further deterioration. Personally, I would start with the suggestion I made for Melundru, and see if that is enough without changing this, than consider reducing this a little, not alot.--BahamutKaiser 06:48, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

How many of you use Wearing Spear? I rest my case. Check the AoM section above. Shard 12:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Why use Wearying Spear when you can just GFTE+Vicious Attack? Riotgear 19:56, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd be glad if we didn't try to regulate everything based on something else in a grossly different catagory. Dervish and Paragon are opposites, and so are spear and scythe.--BahamutKaiser 02:39, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right. Spears are one handed bows that allow for the use of a shield, while Scythes are the Two Handed version of Obsidian Flame.

I've used wearying while not in Melandru (yes because Im nub), and my following attack skills still do over 80 damage. Scythes are imbalanced by themselves. You can put a scythe on an ele and it would become a killing machine. 72.235.48.41 10:06, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

10 damage nerf is not fixing this skill in the slightest. Hit the recharge if anything. Riotgear 19:46, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually I've thought of a way this can stay pretty much the same but take The Tree out of its use basically only let it do deep wound while you are suffering from weakness and change its recharge back to 2 seconds.(Marsc 21:44, 4 November 2007 (UTC))

Get rid of DW and this is balanced... if it becomes under powered give it +5-10 dmg !21:24, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

You shouldnt have to rely on conditions to kill your opponent.Besides, nobody uses it anyways.I also has an outragous energy cost, for most dervish only have 25-40 energy. You wanna talk about an overpowered skill, then you should open up a forum about Riposte/Deadly Riposte... 1-1-08

I love the smell of troll in the morning. --24.9.234.253 08:46, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Take the damage bonus out of the equation. Fixed, still dangerous not as spiky on crits. --CRASH 04:06, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Dervish

The Dervish in general, is too overpowered, not just those skills.. Lol. Aerie 19:43, 9 September 2008 (UTC)