User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Overpowered Skills/Mesmer/Archive 1

Auspicious Incantation

The newest thing this skill has broken are clumsiness and ineptitude, where people can spam these all day and just use auspicious conjure nightmare to get full energy. This is fundamentally a bad skill since you balance skills by their cost and this rewards you for taking a high cost (usually means it's pretty good) not only by getting to use the skill but the skill giving you a huge amount of energy. Please nerf this skill.

---outdated discussion---

I put something together for comparison, may be of some help to this discussion. Currently located here. Backsword 08:14, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Love the chart I have one pretty simlar, one thing to keep in my with Auspicious is it really only works with a few skills, like Panic and Conjure Nightmare, you can do it with Balths Aura but if you get interrupted it's pretty devistating, so you really need 1c or less and 25e for this to be viable. ~Izzy @-'---- 23:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Mesmers with already good energy management (pdrain, shame, drain enchant, doubled by MoR) don't need something like this. The spells that cost 25 energy are in turn powerful; Panic, for example, is no lame hex. Auspicious Incantation not only negates the supposedly heavy energy cost of powerful spells like Panic (abd Balths Aura on smiters), but it fills the caster's bar up with energy to allow nonstop hex(/smite) spam. Balanced? Not in the least, especially when compared to gole. -Auron 16:15, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

25 second recharge to 'spam' something?! I'm not sure if its overpowered but it's hardly used for spamming hexes.--ChronicinabilitY 16:19, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

You don't "spam" Panic, but you can damn well spam everything else on the bar with the energy you get from auspicious. This is even more of a concern with those Strength Of Honor bonding smiters that should have thin energy (maintaining SoH on three mels dervs, say), but auspicious lets them spam zealots fire AoE damage all over opponents. -Auron 16:32, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

The builds that use this aren't extremely powerful. It's not like you see this dominating the metagame. I haven't seen someone use this in like a month or more. --TimeToGetIntense 18:44, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually it's used in pretty much all the hex teams now, with Conjure Nightmare on Illusion mesmers as well as Panic on dom mesmers. And the RenO hex build (2 sins, Mel's dervish, RM necro, Migraine mes) IS dominating the metagame, at least in Europe and Asia. I know one guild who went from r900 to beating PnH in three weeks using the build. I'm not saying that's down to AI - it's more down to the combination of an incredibly strong split (2 sins and flagger) and mega hex pressure at the stand - just pointing out that the skill is being used a lot. Errr 20:55, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

It's only any good with a 25 energy skill, and unless that skill also has a 1s cast time it's extremely vulnerable. While you can make good use of it with Balthazar's Aura (if it doesn't get interrupted) usually it's used with a questionable skill (Conjure Nightmare) just for the energy gain. It's a decent skill now, to be sure, but given all the investments I think it's a stretch to call it overpowered. Its popular use has more to do with the lack of alternatives than anything else - a consequence of the Inspiration Massacre that accompanied Nightfall a year ago that reduced most of the alternatives to ash. -Ensign 09:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

It's not overpowered. I agree with Ensign, the reason you're seeing it so often is because mesmers lack strong energy management outside of AI. Craw 18:00, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Ditto with Craw.--John deathblade 04:01, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Well that's overpowered imo, because you can use it w/o strong restriction, 7s disable doesn't really lower its effectiveness because this skill has nothing to do with EPS even it has a rather high one (assuming this skill is used with 25E skills which is almost always the case), it just refills your energy bar. You don't care about having no energy left, if it happens (unlikely but it could) you just have to switch to your 15/-1 weapon set and cast both AI and your 25E skill (you can get disrupted, hard because of FC but it can occur, the only good counter his enchant removal before you can cast another spell to trigger AI's effect) and you're ready to switch back to your usual set with enough energy left to find something to do while waiting ~25s for AI to reload. The bad thing in fatc is that it makes the use of 25E a blessing instead of a penalty. however i think this is a nice concept, because it makes 25E skills attractive but it isn't balanced imo. by using this skill, you avoid both high-cost penalty of strong skills and get lots of energy back. If there are changes that i would like to test, it would be raising AI's cost to 10E, or trying to increase disabling duration. You could also make Conjure Nightmare 15E instead of 25 (it can still be used with AI but 25E is really to much and that strikes my eyes so much to see this skill was made entirely for AI that it's not fair, there's still Panic anyway with 25E), you could also increase Panic and Conjure Nightmare's reload. I'm not saying you should do all those things at the same time, but you should consider testing some of those changes and see how it works, if it can balance the use of AI a bit. Besides i'd like to add that even if Mesmers lacks a bit of versatility, which i actually think isn't really the case even if there are some elites that should be really buffed you can play Migraine, Panic, MoR that opens a way to lots of different builds, Hex Eater Vortex...., Mesmers have a really nice Energy management spell in the name of Power Drain (gets incredibly well with MoR) and they just need something more in the line of Waste Not, Want Not which is getting interesting. Mesmers lacking of strong E-management spells makes no sense imo, because it appears to me that AI is more overpowered than the rest is underpowered. ~~ Azul 13:28, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

If this is changed, pleeeeease dont' change it to what it used to be. It was so pooey before. I don't even know if anyone used it. Well....I did once. --Redfeather 23:34, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah i don't want this skill to be destroyed though, it was really underpowered before ~~ Azul 10:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The skill is fine. No changes please. -- arredondo 00:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I'd have to agree. It is one of the few viable e-management skills along with power drain for mesmers. Leave it as is.

Agree... Only Mesmer have the capability of using this spell effectively. There aren't many skills for other professions that use 25 energy and have short casting time.

Agreed. The reason, why it is not overpowered is: the more possible gain you intend, the more fragile it becomes. If a necro sees you using this, he has at the very least 1.25sec time to remove it, before you finished casting Conjure Nightmare and THEN your are really f..... as you stand with high energy set and 0 energy. So that makes about 27sec of standing around stupidly before you can cast anything again. So while the theoretical gain is rather hight, the practical use is still fragile and that's why this skill is just fine. --Ineluki 14:23, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Just like ppl that said before it got nerfed that SF was overpowered, you were able to disrupt/divert it but what happened ? It's been nerfed (a bit) because its inherent effect was too strong. I don't want a huge nerf of AI, just something that makes it less "refill one's energy bar spell". If you consider 25e spell to be strong, then since AI makes their use even easier, that makes 25e spell kinda overpowered don't you think so? First things first, this skill does nothing on its very own, it has to be used with 25e spells to be effective. At least one very good thing to do, apart from changing AI and i would even consider that not changing AI but changing only Conjure Nightmare would be better (it won't reduce its awesomeness but reduce its abuses), is to decrease Conjure Nightmare's cost to 15e because i perfectly understand what AI does in a Panic mesmer bar, however it has nothing to do in a Migrain Mesmer bar imo and why is it there ? because of conjure nightmare which adds 3 energy degen compared to conjure phantasm but costs 15e more energy for the same duration and fuels AI. Absolutely meaningless. And that gives even less credibility when used with AI, it's the kind of skills that add nothing good to the game because they actually add nothing that makes sense ( in its current form). However this might even be subject to changes because Izzy is reworking hexes so i dunno what conjure phantasm and conjure nightmare will look like or if they will even be changed but anyway, the cost of a spell should be adjusted compared to its effects (and don't upset me by saying you want conjure to remain 25e but to become -10 health degen plz....). ~~ Azul 16:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I do think this is a super good skill, but unlike the other energy management skills in order to use this you have to bring some others skills to make it viable, this really keeps it off defensive characters which is where energy management is scary, we have a huge lack of offensive casters in the game they all pretty much become defensive beacuse they can't keep up with physical damage, or they become insane spikes and are not fun to play with. I really think this skill pushes some nice offensive characters and can make some of those 25e skills playable. ~Izzy @-'---- 23:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

If it wasn't for the current form of Auspicious I would never have used a build with Chilblains. Which was an absolute blast to mess around with last weekend. --Redfeather 09:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Please, leave the only viable energy management for Mesmers alone. Besides AI, Power Drain is the only viable energy skill. You can not manage your energy with Guilt and Shame, because you are too much dependent of the foe, even with MoR. Shame and Guilt are not meant to be energy management either. Drain Enchantment, Energy Drain, Energy Tap, Mantra of Recall, Inspired/Revealed Hex, Inspired/Revealed Enchantment, etc etc. These have all been lost due to Monks. If you really want to tone this one down, keep it at adding a few seconds to the disabling of the next spell used or increasing the casting time. But please, for Lyssa's sake, leave the energy gain alone. 84.87.168.39 07:40, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Mantra of Recovery

Simply for the reason that its sets the bar too high for other elites to even think about competing for the coveted elite spot on your skillbar. Most mesmer non-elite skills are effective at their niche, this elite just makes them so much more powerful, recharging potent spells and the subsequent energy recovery spells to boot. -50% recharge just seems a little too much. I'd reducing the effect to -33% and then bringing down the recharge of many key mesmer skills in line with this, such that MoR mesmers would about the same power, yet opening up the elite slot for other potential uses. I'd personally like to see more of the fun elites, like the oh-so desctructive hex eater vortex or Fevered Dreams. (Yes I appreciate -33% would place it with Weapon of Quickening but there are more fast casters than communers anyway).--Ckal Ktak--13:32, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Weapon of Quickening can be cast on allies and works on binding rituals. If MoR were reduced to 33% it would be arguably worse than Serpent's Quickness, a non-elite skill. lol --Redfeather 11:37, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

MoR doesn't obliterate the other elites. Hex Eater Vortex is played, Migraine too as well as Panic it just depends of the way you're playing. Casters Shutdown ? Energy denial ? More defensive with frontline support? I think that if you don't play in any particular way, ppl just use MoR by default in 8vs8. In 4vs4 you can do pretty much anything with MoR better than with anything else since you can more easily focus on one target and render it ineffective (i.e MoR+Ether Phantom+Drain Delusions+Power Leak = OMG energy denial). To use MoR you need to invest in Fast Casting. If you heavily invest in FC it will cut by half most of your spells casting time and with MoR it will cut by half most of your spells reload time. The "drawback" with Mesmers is that they have strong 1vs1 shutdown skills but with high reload and somehow high cost. With MoR you don't care about these, since your e-management spells (as you stated) can be used more often too (Power Drain) so you kinda cast twice as much as a non-MoR mesmer. It kinda double the effectiveness of a Mesmer, which is huge. Overpowered ? I won't say anything about it because i'm not 100% sure myself, but it is extremely powerfull indeed between the hands of a good mesmer (a bad mesmer will just waste all its energy). If you nerf it, making it 10e might be a solution but don't touch reload and duration imo, it's fine as is. I don't think reducing its recharge to 33% is a good thing, especially if you say that because Weapon of Quickening works like that. Weapon of Quickening can be used on anybody while you're the only one to benefit from MoR. I'll add one more thing. However, this "double a mesmer's effectiveness" thing isn't correct actually. The most threatening thing about mesmers is their ability to shutdown somebody. But if they want to shutdown somebody, they have to wait for this player to cast or anticipate when using Shame/Guilt etc... these mesmers don't spam skills on recharge so their effectiveness has the 'potential' to be doubled, but it seems to me that it's more a +50% effectiveness than a +100% effectiveness overall, it depends of who they face, MoR allows their shutdown spells to be available more often so for example instead of using Power Leak on 1 out of 3 E spells, they can use it on 1 out of 2 spells if you see what i mean. It's not like if we were talking of "direct effect" skills. for example i'll use an imaginated skill (same recharge than Power Leak) that makes your target loosing 17energy (same amount than Power Leak) when you use it. With this skill, your target will loose 17e everytime your skill recharges, while with Power Leak, your target will loose 17e everytime she uses a spell(if you can catch it) which isn't the same thing. So the overpoweredness of MoR on Shutdown Skills is to be evaluated with care, it's not like if you were talking of a skill that made El able to use Blinding Flash with a 2s recharge and with no added consequence on energy. However, where i think that MoR is likely to be overpowered is on skills that have a direct effect like energy denial skills (ether phantom+drian delusions things like that) because yeah it is really astonishing, i mean if you spam Ether Phantom and Drian Delusions on recharge under MoR on a caster with 4 pips of energy regen it's just like if he had -1pip of energy degen all of time and it doesn't require him to be casting or anything else. ~~ Azul 16:35, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

i'll just add that nerfing the elite skill that is used the more often isn't the way to deal with the other underpowered elites :p (see the overpowered ranger skills section about Burning Arrow). You d' better buff the other skills (without making them overpowered) instead of nerfing the few that have power and even the few that might be overpowered anyway ~~ Azul 16:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

While I agree that a lot of mesmer elites need buffing (Some appear beyond saving), I find it hard to come up with an elite of this power, as most mesmer elites are generally too situational, whereas this is quite the opposite in that there's never a bad time to have your spells recharge faster. As is said in a lot of discussions, the recharge time on many spells, particularly mesmer ones are set very long simply to stop them being broken with MoR, if MoR wasn't so powerful, then these skills could justifiably have shorter recharges. I can't quite get which side of the fence you're sitting on here Azul. --Ckal Ktak 17:04, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sitting in the middle actually :p the problem, as you said with MoR is that it isn't situational at all, you can make benefit of it with every spells, which is the main problem of this skill imo.However, if you buff other elites which have a very good use in a particular situation, then if this is the situation ppl are looking for they will take this elite instead of MoR for example you use Migraine and not MoR+Arcane Conundrum, you use Panic in 8vs8 you don't spam Ether Phantom+Drain delusions under MoR on everybody, you use Hex Eater Vortex not MoR with Shatter Hex. The only Mesmer elite that is overwhelm by the use of MoR imo is Expel Hexes, since you do better with MoR+Remove Hex, maybe Expel Hexes needs its recharge to be dropped by one or two seconds or maybe MoR needs to be nerfed ? The fact that it can only be used by primary mesmers seems enough to me because the only really good stuff you can use as a Me/X is things like Remove Hex. You remove one hex every 4s, i deeply like those kind of things because Remove Hex is nowaday used only by noob monks or by the Master Of Healing... The fact i'm not on a clear side is that i love MoR and i really don't want it to disappear however it is obviously powerfull and i'm not sure i'm aware of all what makes it powerfull so i'd prefer not sitting on a side which might be the wrong one :p Imo, what mesmers need is a buff of some situational elites that would be more effective than MoR+another non-elite skill rather than(/along with ?) a MoR nerf, this is what i'm actually sure of. Also, i'm sure i'm not aware of all the skills that have been nerfed or have not been buffed because they would have become broken with MoR so if anyone can tell me :p ~~ Azul 17:18, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the 33% nerf on this is going to hurt it a lot.

This skill is not overpowered, its just that so many other elite skills are just really bad. Nerfing it is not the solution, but buffing the underpowered elites are a better way to deal with this. People run MoR most of the time because there is nothing else that is worth taking in many situations. In an average of 10 points (which is what most people run) in FC you get about a duration of 15 seconds. This skill is balanced in that it can't be kept up all the time. If this skill were nerfed I think many of the changes that were made in recharge/duration to mesmer hexes would have to be reverted somewhat.

P-block>MoR if you're good. MoR>P-block if you're not so good. P-block gives infinitely better shutdown, especially to those Aegis-chaining monks. —ǥȓɩηɔɧ〚₮/ḉ〛 22:12, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Mantra of Recovery has awesome synergy with virtually every Domination and Inspiration skill, removing their main balancing mechanism - their long recharges. Now that Energy Surge is fair, all of the elites available to Dom Mesmers are situational except Mantra of Recovery. I don't think the skill desperately needs to be toned down, but I didn't think it needed its energy cost to drop from 10 either. The biggest concern about Mantra of Recovery is how it can shift such a finesse profession, depending heavily upon timing and placement of spells, into a spam caster with the right skillset. The recent buff to Drain Enchantment might force another look. -Ensign 11:36, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think MoR Mesmers are versitile enough because they can't add any actual pressure really. They can't be very useful in any situation other than straight up 8v8. I think it might be a little too strong in 8v8 though. --TimeToGetIntense 19:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

In general MoR is really strong if you're allowed to sit on someone and cast undisturbed for long stretches. Under even moderate disruption though, MoR is rather questionable as it becomes very difficult to utilize, as more spells are interrupted and you have to spend more time kiting than casting. Fast, powerful elites like Energy Surge or Hex Eater Vortex perform a lot better under fire and open up more strategic options as well. -Ensign 10:38, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Since the recent buff to GoR, i prefer it to MoR as long as i don't need to carry a hard rez. It doesn't 'force' you to use skills on recharge in order to not waste your elite, and it opens so much more tactical options as a whole. Double Shatter Enchantment on a spike, double Shame to shut both monks at once, double Diversion to surprise someone who thought he could cast once his current Diversion is over, double pdrain to refill your whole energy bar, double PLeak to throw a caster straight to 0E, etc. The ability to double whatever you need in the situation right away is often much more valuable and interesting than having everything recharging in half the time when in most real game situation you just CAN'T use everything on recharge under MoR. And with GoR at 10s recharge, it feels like it's always readyPatccmoi 15:16, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I prefer GoR often as well. I used to use it often before Lamentation was nerfed. :( --Redfeather 07:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Honestly I think MoR Brings a lot of Mesmers to the table, I do wish it was more offensive Mesmers but a lot of the builds that use MoR do some good stuff for the game, in the end Id really hate to nerf this until there are more viable Mesmer elites in the playable skill pool. ~Izzy @-'---- 23:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, you do man to do just that. For such a large selection of elites, it seems odd to have only a few worth using. --Ckal Ktak 08:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

What...? Readem Warning: Ignore this User if at all possible. 05:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Tell me again why this skill needs to be nerfed? there are so few mesmers this ain't a major problem.

MoR is one on the only useful Mesmer Elites left... Either nerf this and give other Elites some serious buffs, or just leave it alone. --J0ttem™ 09:47, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Migraine, Pblock, Panic, HEV...only bad mesmers are limited to MoR. Readem Hate Mail Goes Here 02:14, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Are you implying that Migraine takes skill to use? — Skakid9090 02:16, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

More skill then using a stance lol... Readem Hate Mail Goes Here 02:23, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I guess im a bit late her to join the convo but this really tickz me becuz this just makez mesmerz even more less viable for pve usage makez me sad.....plz izzy take pve into consideration with your nerfs -24.238.94.19 23:08, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Keystone Signet

I honestly would be fine if I never saw this skill in a gvg again. I needs to go back to a 20 second recharge, or it needs to disable itself for 10 seconds so inscriptions doesn't affect it. Giving humility a 5 second clock was really unnecessary. Pluto 05:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Lol its fun!...But totally Imba right now, Sort it please. --ChronicinabilitY 02:24, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

It's is only imba with 2-3 signets like Signet of Weariness & Signet of Humility. Disable those skills for 10 seconds or more when used instead of nerfing this skill into uselessness. 16 October 2007

This was insane, and it went back to 20r anyone see that build being used with the 20r? ~Izzy @-'---- 20:08, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Seen a few try to run it, combined with mantra so its basically a 10sec recharge, its ok but not totally Imba like before. Seems Balanced --ChronicinabilitY 00:59, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I like Pluto's suggestion above, as it pushes the power of the elite and frees up the need for Mantra of Inscriptions. Tweaking of the actual recharge can then be performed on Keystone by varying the disable length if it's imbalanced, and one doesn't have to factor the interaction with Mantra. --Epinephrine 02:20, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

The temporary buff was sort of a "Look what I can do! But now I'm back to normal so you can only do it half as often". IMO, 12-15 second recharge with a 2-3 second casting time would probably be an acceptable buff. --128.195.73.176 02:38, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Easy way to solve this problem would be to have this skill remove any stance on the user. --Shadetz X 13:09, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Lol, stop suggesting stance removal :P then it is as useful as it is with a 20r and no stance removal... I'd however favor 15 recharge 2 cast or 12 recharge 3 cast... something like that :P--68.102.128.17 11:31, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I think someone said it best in the forums, this skill (along with many signet builds) will either be overpowered or in the gutter. -Phoenix

"This was insane, and it went back to 20r anyone see that build being used with the 20r?" Of course not when you simply put it back to 20 recharge. 87.189.213.71 23:23, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Clumsiness

→ moved from User talk:Isaiah Cartwright

Remove it from the game. Thanks. -Auron 07:51, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I loll'd ^ --MP47 (talk) 19:51, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Did a guild of retards receive a link to the wiki discussion pages or something? We've had an influx of stupid topics and stupid posters recently. I'd like to think these pages are for serious discussion meant to help improve the game, not for morons to masturbate in front of an audience. This place has felt less like a balance discussion page and more like a GWG forum recently. Izzy won't have a reason to read these discussion pages if they're full of nothing but inanity. I know I've started ignoring my watchlist lately because of a select group of morons with nothing helpful or interesting to say. This isn't Sardelac. --Reklaw 20:39, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I have to assume you aren't referring to Auron, he may be an elitist jackass, but he's not a moron. (I don't care if they rhyme). - HeWhoIsPale 20:46, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Auron ownzzzzzzz. --71.229.204.25 20:57, 27 November 2007 (UTC) Bollocks to your watchlist.

yeh remove it, zaishen in HA spiked me with it! :_ --Rayd 21:23, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Moron, no, but the worthless topic part, sure. Head over to the Necromancer discussion page if you want to see a lot of useless topics written by morons. --Reklaw 21:41, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Auron isn't bad nubs. Clumsiness is annoying, due to its low rec and the damage it does through frenzy. Raise rec to 7 pls, if you do anything to it at all. --Readem 23:10, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

/agree increase the recharge time, and decrease ineptitude recharge again, since clumsiness was really the problem. OblivionDanny 00:52, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with decreasing the recharge on Ineptitude to mabe 15 seconds making it more usefull yet i still would liek to see clumsiness as 2 second duration with greater damage and a 6 second reclock. Thanks izzy.

Hex Eater Vortex

I shouldn't even need to explain this. This skill has single-handedly killed the viability of anti-melee hexing because it's strong enough to win games by itself whenever it has fuel. 165.170.201.197 00:59, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh my, hexway is gone ;o?!? How will the game ever function? --Readem 01:33, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

yeah, and I really miss getting to run around 90% slower. So much so, I almost debated taking dolyak signet. AWESOME! SUPER! WOWEE! Looks like it got nerfed anyway though. Pluto 23:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)