User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Overpowered Skills/Ritualist/Archive 2

Ancestors' Rage

Okay, so basically on any spike involving a melee character (read, just about every single spike in the game), it's a lightning orb. Only instead, it's 1/4 second cast, making it virtually impossible to interupt, and is 1/3 the cost. Last I checked, Orb also didn't hit 5 archers at once during VoD. Is there something about this skill I just don't get, or is it just a bit too powerful? Pluto 06:26, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I think they should raise the cost back up to 10 Energy, raise the casting time back up to 0.75¾ seconds and see how it works out. -- Gordon Ecker 06:44, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

The part you don't get is, you or you team can cast multiple instanthit spells on a foe, Ancestors however needs a friendly target, the same enchantment doesn't stack multiple times = no real spike, for 1 second nothing happens makes it easy to kite. 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Friendly targets aren't hard to find in this game. If you don't have a derv, warrior, or at the very least, a sin or npc around to cast this on, your either running flags, or something is terribly wrong. Also, 1 second isn't a very long time to get away from ancestors'. That's still shorter than the cast time for lightning orb, and the warrior should already be in your face if the rit casted ancestors'. Unless you have a run boost, the warrior should still be next to you after that 1 second, especially if he shocked you, had you galed, or bull strikes you during the spike. I still think the skill is too good. =/ Pluto 10:10, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

People run this on ele primarys, pretty sure its overpowered.

I overpowered this skill to encourage Rt's that where more offensive and more support. This pushes people away from the Spirits and healing beacuse this is in the channeling line, this is a tactic that is often used to help a class find a better place in the meta, so yes I agree this is overpowered, but I think it gives the Rt a job and is probably something I wont be changing for a while. ~Izzy @-'---- 22:07, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

So in order to make people use a bad class, we give them overpowered skills? Let me spell it out: 1) most characters who die in GvG's have a melee character hitting them with support from caster spike skills; 2) Lightning Orb is generally considered a well-balanced skill, used in this spike-support role, at 15/2/5 that misses frequently. 3) Ancestor's Rage does comparable damage, is 5/0.25/8, doesn't miss, and gives energy to Dervishes. The Air line and the Channeling line are about equally useful apart from the spike skills in question: Air has Gale and B-Surge, Channeling has Splinter and Warmonger's and Offering of Spirit. The current incarnation of Ancestor's Rage is incontrovertibly grossly overpowered. End of story.--72.211.152.118 07:15, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with the above statement, this skill is not merely a bit overpowered it is broken, needs to be 15+ energy, or 2 second cast, or 25+ seconds recharge, and even then it would still be pretty beefy.. the fact that you can not only use this 100+, uninteruptable, 5 energy, AOE, low recharge skill on every spike, but also STACK it with another direct damage skill for 200+ damage from the same caster with virtually no risk to the caster makes this a million times stronger than any other caster damage skill in the game.. people run this on monk and ele primaries now, people spam this in every part of pvp in this game, to say it is ruining the game is an understatement --87.51.88.188 16:53, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

i think youre exaggerating a little, just make the energy 10 and increase the recharge or increase the enchantment time.24.47.18.113 19:01, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

At least 1s cast isn't too much for something like that with AOE dmg. Scale down the damage for 12 in channeling and less, don't change the 13-16 range and that would be ok. Ritualists can keep this skill for vod or you play a fire ele flager and the result is the same to kill npcs (I mean it's more a npcs IA issue). With an additional nerf to splinter weapon that should be ok. Ichiko 00:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Make it less "best-damage-per-energy-skill-in-the-game-ish." 72.235.48.41 09:15, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

The only reason why people run Ritualists in GvG is Splinter and Ancestors, nothing else. Guess what will happen if they nerf both skills ? 87.189.202.125 10:41, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Then people will run them for the nonelite RC and the 5 energy sac-less infuse. Maybe even for the unremovable mending-guardian. Splinter and Ancestors aren't the only reason people bring rits to gvg. The fact that Ancestor's Rage is the best damage skill in the game is why every rit brings it everywhere. 72.235.48.41 21:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Ancestor's Rage is basically the main skill in almost every single rit bar , nerfing it would make rits extremly useless--189.70.107.206 11:41, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

It's because that it is on many rits' skill bars that this skill needs to be looked at. Variety is something rits lack (Terra Xin 07:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC))

this is exactly the problem , there are just a few skills that are usefull , most of the channeling line was nerfed into uselesness , ancestor's rage , splinter weapon and offering of spirit are the skils that keep channeling line alive , other skills needs to be buffed before nerfing this.--189.12.67.75 22:20, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Warmonger's Weapon

It's too strong. In normal settings it will last 16-18 seconds, out of 21. It's much more dangerous skill than Wailing Weapon, and yet Wailing is much weaker. I'd like to compare this to Dwarven Battle Stance. Warmongers costs 50% less energy (because it's used on Rt, who has 4 regen), unlike Dwarven which lasts for 10/20 seconds this lasts much longer. Sure, Dwarven is stance while Warmonger has 1sec cast (minor point though). With Dwarven you can't use your attack skills and you're using elite slot. In short, the only advantage Dwarven has is 33% IAS. Now, is 33% IAS worth: can't use attack skills, elite slot, 50% more energy used, 50% shorter duration? In case someone says "ah but you need a teammate to cast Warmongers on you", this is a very moot point. Even in RA I take Warmongers on my Rt and it's devastating, plus, even though I can't cast it on myself (unless im SStrenght Rt) I can choose whom to give Warmonger at a given time, unlike Dwarven. Enemy always knows who will use Dwarven, and can babysit that guy in one way or the other, but with Warmongers there's more of a suprise effect. This skill was strong even before Spawning got buffed, and now it deserves some attention. Just because Warmonger Rt's are not running rampant in current metagame doesn't mean this skill isn't overpowered, much like Augury. Servant of Kali 16:32, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it's a pretty shady skill. Maybe Warmonger's could have a drawback for attacking an attacking foe so that casters can have a tactical option against the Warrior who is buffed with it? --TimeToGetIntense 07:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

"ah but you need a teammate to cast Warmongers on you", Says who? If a sin brings this its gg monks in Ra. This is probably the best interupting skill there is, and it has pretty much no bad part to it besides: 12ish duration with a 20 recharge (Which is absolutely nothing) and It has a 1 second cast (ZOMG) I say for basically complete unremovalable interupts everytime you hit: 15 energy, 30 recharge or next 1..6..7 hits. I'm suprised this isn't on every bar.

When people start using this skill, I am sure someone will get back to you. Readem Sorry, I'll stop trolling now. 07:38, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

You won't see it in GvG observer mode because no one plays primary Rt's there unless it's a flag runner. The skill is overpowered. I've seen it used tons in TA, dunno about HA because I don't play it. Servant of Kali 10:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

This skill is kind of rediculous, i had a warrior attack me with this today and i couldnt do anything but stand there. Though this skill isnt exactly used alot as far as i see. (why i have no idea, a martial class can completely utterly shutdown a spellcaster with this).Streetp 04:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not used that much because no one plays Rt's in GvG, quite simple (aside for flag runner but I guess his bar and attributes are full). Servant of Kali 10:39, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, this skill is grossly overpowered. In TA, if team 1 runs warmonger's and team 2 doesn't, team 1 will have a massive advantage and probably win. If both teams have warmonger's, which is usually the case, the outcome of the game is decided by who uses warmonger's better and who counters it better. Basically, if you want to be successful in TA, your team MUST have this skill. Owoc 09:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm seeing alot of statements about how overpowered it is, yet how little it is seen because Ritualists are so rare? Isn't that a corrilation? Obviously if Ritualists are not common, they lack alot of the abilities players seek or admire in a character, and if Ritualist serves as a good interrupt buffer in compensation for it's lack of additional advantages, I'm not seeing how this is broken. Both Warmongerer and Wailing require you to hit your foe, so blind, block, and many other melee counters can overcome this. Perhaps this skill is a bit advantagious, but really, Ritualist needs something, I expect to see every one of you Ritualist underpowered skills section if your really going to discuss the imbalance in Ritualist :) --BahamutKaiser 20:39, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Distracting Shot is affected by blind and block too, as well as other melee counters like Price of Failure. Regardless of that it's a good skill. You should really check Underpowered Skills section, Ritualist. Then, when you see how many thrash (not bad, but thrash) skills are there, you'll see why no one uses Ritualist aside of few classic skills, and why Warmonger doesn't see a lot of play. Just because Ritualist itself is underpowered doesn't mean this skill is OK, and making Rt truly viable would show how much of a problem this skill is. Servant of Kali 06:39, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

People don't run bbots in TA anymore? Has society really given up? Readem Warning: Ignore this User if at all possible. 05:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

So you're saying that a skill isn't overpowered because one can always run blindbot to counter it? I suppose you can also give Eviscerate +999 dmg and say it's not overpowered because, hey, you can blind the target. Superb thinking, but I've seen it before and it failed. Servant of Kali 08:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

A bbot would mitigate the effect to such a degree, it would hardly be noticeable. Also, blind=90% scrub :P. Readem Hate Mail Goes Here 09:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Readem, of all the posts you've made on Izzy's wiki, all of them prove you're an idiot. Stop posting here plz. These discussions are primarily for intelligent players.

I saw people running warmongers on paragons today. It really should be melee only. Then it should be a set amount of interrupts, not infinity over 16 seconds. Shard

People only run this, when they have a Paragon. Otherwise, not very useful. Oh, and Shard, stop being a nub. "I said this, because you're wrong. I posted, because it was an idiotic mention. I say this, because you fail at the game. Readem Hate Mail Goes Here 04:17, 15 September 2007 (UTC)" <--- quoted for truth Readem Hate Mail Goes Here 02:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

People only run this, when they have a Paragon. Otherwise, not very useful. - Both statements are not true. Playing a monk in TA regularly, I can tell you that. Warmonger's Weapon on a warrior, assasin or pet not only is quite useful, it IS used by 'people'. - TeleTeddy 08:58, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

If it was possible to shut down every hostile attacker (whether using ranged attacks or melee) with a bbot, then everyone would bring one, I guess. However, it is not. Chances are, one single ranger keeps a bbot busy (assuming they both know what they are doing), and as Warmonger's Weapon can target any ally, you have a problem. I agree that this skill needs a (rather small) nerf, my suggestion would be to either limit the weapon to (attribute/2.5) interrupts or set recharge to 30s. - TeleTeddy 23:29, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

...Says who you need a ritualist to run this skill? --72.74.237.104 03:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC) This will be overpowered in gvg if passive defense is nerfed, and it's used on rit runners atm for those saying it's never used.

This skill combined with Rampage as One basically are the meta in TA. People running a thumper, R/P, Rt/Mo with warmonger and N/Rt healer. It's just a TA version of spiritway, try healing up to a thumper and a RaO + warmongers weapon R/P hitting on you. You can try to blind or interrupt the melee in some kind, but its just too much pressure. This build is just too broken in TA, everyone can farm glad points .. build wars > skill. Imo this skill needs a little nerf: something that warmongers wont let people boost their attack speed, or that it can only interrupt 4-5 times - otherwise TA will stay the laugh that it's atm.

This skill's actually pretty much overpowered, especially in TA (like said above). For about 15s out of 21s, you can disrupt anything a caster will attempt to cast, which in its own is broken since skills that were designed for such tasks like Shivers of Dread or even Thunderclap (knockdown for this one but basically the same mechanic) have additionnal drawbacks such as "you lose X energy each time you hit the target (therefore triggering the effect) or {skill} ends" and Warmonger hasn't. Besides all those skills have a 2s activation time whereas Warmonger has 1 (still disruptable but obviously harder). Moreover, Warmonger can be used on any ally 'including' pets which is where things get even more insane : your monk basically gets powned by a single pet (pets can be healed, rezzed indefinitely) affected by Warmonger, Rampage as One and Otyugh's Cry, the only chance to counter this is disruption and blind. Those are standard counters in most TA builds however because of this skill's broken duration and design, if you manage to put this on your pet, your R/P or your sin, the opponent is provided with an amazing advantage. I'll also enlighten the fact that disruption has always been based on skill and reactions to be successful which aren't required for this skill to reach a 100% efficiency ratio. Daze does something close to this but can be removed while weapon spells cannot, doesn't last more than ~10seconds except if you use BHA (elite, twice flight time, block etc..) and is rather hard to inflict. ~~ Azul 18:12, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh wow this was the most terrible thing i've ever seen in Team Arena's. 1 Monk, 2 Rits and a Thumper. The rits both had warmongers weapon and kept it on both the ranger and his pet. We were playing with 1 monk + 1 rit healer, but both of the healers couldn't do a thing. I wouldn't really mind losing if the players who played it were good, but these players were kinda bad - and we just lost because of 2 warmonger's weapons. So is there actually any idea of changing this skill, because it is just TOO broken. One skill that dominates TA! Build Wars FTL... .. NIEKler 16:48, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree that this one is overpowered. But sadly it is also the only reason left to play a ritualist at all since it needs both high channeling and spawning power to be kept up. Most Spawning Power skills suck, spawning power bonus on rituals is a joke and most other weapon spells either do not profit at all or only slightly from spawning power. So apart from Attuned Was Songkai and Spirit's Strength builds, which have their own issues, X/Rt>Rt/X pretty much all the time. Beetlejuice 17:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Similar effects are either hexes or daze, and both of those can be removed, with the latter also usually having some sort of condition to apply and usually a far, far shorter duration than WW. Warmongers cannot be removed, and has a hard to disrupt 1 second cast. This skill really should be nerfed or completely reworked to do something different. Maybe a shorter duration and a longer cast time would suffice. Pluto 11:02, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, why hasn't this skill been fixed? I know it only affects TA, but TA used to have a really serious community which is now basically dead. Stop ignoring TA, Izzy! I have a suggestion for this skill. If you fail to hit with an attack, it should end. There needs to be removal for skills this powerful, period. --TimeToGetIntense 13:55, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't only affect TA. People use it everywhere, because it's broken everywhere. It needs to have one of the following changes:

• For (X) seconds, target ally has a Warmonger's Weapon. That ally's next (1...4) attacks against non-attacking foes interrupt that foe.
• For (1..5) seconds, target ally has a Warmonger's Weapon. Whenever that ally hits a non-attacking foe, that foe is interrupted.

It should not last anywhere close to its duration. Shard 03:00, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Still only useful on paragons imo. Ok on assassins, but your team should have a ward for you to hide in. Still, an easy fix would be "This skill is only effective when not enchanted". Gg. Still don't like it? Cry more. --Readem 00:10, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Mend Body and Soul

Nonelite RC? OK. The 100+ heal for 5 energy is already powerful enough. The condition removal is just stupid, even in builds that only use a few spirits. Shard 04:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The main problem isn't this skill, it's the fact that most of the other Rt skills (including Restoration line) are very bad. Rt as well as Paragon should be tweaked, with Paragon being completely redesigned (that's how bad design is).. but it's not gonna happen. Servant of Kali 08:39, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Nerfbecausedusedsituation Readem Hate Mail Goes Here 09:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

"Nerfbecausedusedsituation" Quotedfortruthsituation --Tankity Tank 09:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Learn how to read. I did not say it's broken because it's overused. I sais it's broken because it is. Please, if you still don't understand why it's broken, read the post. It plainly tells you why.

Also, readem, there's no need to post idiotic remarks criticizing people who have a brain simply because you do not. If you're going to disagree with something, fine, but at least act like you're more intelligent than a 4-year-old. Shard

I said this, because your wrong. I posted, because it was an idiotic mention. I say this, because you fail at the game. Readem Hate Mail Goes Here 04:17, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Please stop the personal attacks. -- Gordon Ecker 04:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Aww, but Gordon! I am hungry! Readem Hate Mail Goes Here 04:36, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Readem has not contributed to any discussions anywhere since day 1 of this wiki. He only ruins them. It doesn't piss you off even a little that he's purposefully being an a-hole? Shard

That warning was directed at both of you. -- Gordon Ecker 05:14, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Thought that was obvious Gordon. Appears not :/. Readem Hate Mail Goes Here 17:35, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

This is a potentially very strong skill, unfortunately it gets completely wtfpwned if the other team kills your spirits efficiently. It's awesome against bad teams and alright against good ones. --Tankity Tank 11:39, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

how can you compare this to RC at all? uconditional, only removes 1, different attributes, ect. —The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090. 17:46, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

No, MBS removes one condition FOR EACH SPIRIT in earshot. If you have 5 spirits in earshot (not hard to do in spiritway), you remove 5 conditions. Taking down spirits is hard when all your physicals are blind and all your casters are dazed. At best, you can keep all but 2-3 spirits down, in which case this still heals for 100 and removes 2-3 conditions per use. It's so intensely broken. Remember kids, broken does not mean "uncounterable." Broken means compared to other things in the game, this is strictly better. How many monk nonelites heal for 100 and remove multiple conditions? No, do not buff monk skills. See "Diablo 2 Slope." Shard

Lern2 kill spirits. --Tankity Tank 07:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Wtf? All your physicals blind, all your casters dazed? Given that scenario, it's hard to cast mend body and soul anyway. ;) Seems to me, that you're referring to a specific build/template, that may (or may not) be imbalanced. I don't see why this skill for itself would be broken, Tankity Tank phrased it nicely: Ridiculously overpowered vs bad teams, alright against good ones. - TeleTeddy 09:15, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure there's some guilt by association going on here, this skill is reasonable but not imba. --Tankity Tank 09:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

This is one of the staple skill for Resto Ritualist and if nerfed Resto Rits will not be used anymore. You must not forget there is a price to pay for condition removal as the ritualist have to bring at least one spirit (use skill slots) and be within earshot of spirits. The Ritualist basically has to sacrafice being mobility (which in turn affect the team) to get this condition removal. This is very reasonable IMO. You might want to argue that the Ritualist can benefit from spirits other allies or foes bring but if you have observed the meta-games you would see that teams that use this strategy do a mediocre job at healing (not overpowered) and their spirits get killed often.--Shadetz X 10:27, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

OMG a good skill! Nerfing is the only solution!24.47.18.113 18:10, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Let's not forget how unpopular this skill was before the small 20 HP boost from the nightfall update. Leave this skill alone. --216.113.208.132 02:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Simply...wow. I've never seen so many idiots in one place. If you think this skill is fine, you need to kill yourself or take kindergarten mathematics. Without a spirit, it's better than most of the monk direct heals. Ritualists are not supposed to be better monks than monks. Shard

I could give you a detailed description why monks use protection skills and why your comparison is thus wrong. However from your name calling (check GWW:NPA), I figure that you have no idea how Divine Favor works. If you progress past kindergraden mathematics into the realm of addition and multiplication, you will find that comparing a hypothetical pure healing monk's orison (arguably one of the worse healing skills) with a hypothecial pure resto rit using mend, all at 12 without runes, gives 60+12*3.2 > 96. Thus, even disregarding all advantages monks have due to protection skills, you are plain wrong. --Xeeron 13:28, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Where does the 60 from orison come from? 12 heal. Where does the 12*3.2 come from? Divine Favor. So...200 attribute points in monk attrivutes give you a 96 point heal, while 100 points in rit attributes give exactly the same thing... oops it removes conditions too. I gess they don't teach 100<200 in preschool.

By the way, monk protection skills are in a seperate attribute line while some of the rit prots are in their healing line. Rit prots also are uncounterable, while monk prots can be removed, and sometimes hindered. ZOMG so balanced. It's as if izzy (or the profession designer) took monks and crammed all their skills into a single attribute line, then added a crappy primary attribute that nobody uses anyway.

On the post below mine...1 second recharge is such a miniscule difference that it doesn't really matter. If the game were truly balanced, people would run orison more because of its smaller recharge, but that obviously isn't the case. Shard 11:36, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I would severly advice you to stop insulting people in your posts. It's not the way we do things around here. Backsword

Shard, you should redefine your definition of balance. If one chooses Orison over another skill based a shorter recharge time with all other things equal than that means Orison is preferred over the other skill because it is better. Balance is based on the idea that people are indifferent between choosing one skill and another substitute skill given no outside information (eg. the battle field, the number of players, strength and weakness of foes and etc). --216.113.208.132 01:59, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and monk prots also have a lot of 1/4 activation spells that can be used to counter spikes and they can be stacked so that more than one is active at the same time. Oh, and they can remove conditions everywhere, not just in earshout of spirits. You know what: Simply have a look at observer mode and count the number of monk healers vs the number of rit healers you see used in high end gvg. --Xeeron 09:30, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Xeeron didn't even mention recharge. You can't take two spells and compare their effect, without regarding anything else, that's... well, I won't use the words you did. Let's say it's inappropriate. - TeleTeddy 15:07, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Nowhere in my post did I say anything about High End GvG. There are other pvp venues in this game. You don't see many spirit rits or n/rts in GvG because in GvG, movement is important, whereas in HA or TA, you can "camp" in one location through the duration of a match. Check observe and tell me how many rit healers you see in tombs vs how many monk healers you see in tombs. BTW earshot of spirits is easy to achieve in tombs, because most of the maps are smaller than radar range anyway. 72.235.48.41 10:15, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

The problem is N/Rt healers in Tombs, and that's because of soul reaping + minions and pets. Fix pets/thumpers and the problem goes away. --72.211.152.118 19:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

No, fix pets/thumpers and MBnS is still a 96 point heal with condition removal. Are you guys slow or something? What part of this skill aren't you reading fully? Let's talk 12 attribute. MBnS is a 96 unconditional heal. No other skill in the game does this for the same cost/recharge. Add in the fact that this removes conditions. I can't understand why so many people think this is fine. Part of game balance is, well, balance. This isn't. Shard 03:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

It might have something to do with single-target healing not really being used, notice how many healing prayers skills are on the underpowered list and how that the only healing spell that is used, is LoD, and thats just cuz nothing else is good enough in the current environment, if anything, things need to be more like MBnS and less sucky, MBnS is one of the few skills that make a resto rit even worth taking, no need to take it away, the only change I could see being reasonable is making it rely slightly less on spirit spamming, maybe put a cap (2-3 maybe), but other than that, leave it alone.--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 05:26, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

If comparing is really necessary then MBaS is the restoration version of Dismiss Condition for Monks. MBaS Heals 100+ HP and conditionally removes conditions if you have spirits up and you are within spirit range, notice there is actually 2 conditions to meet. Dismiss condition removes a condition and gives 40-50 unconditional heal from devine and another 50-70 heal when you meet the condition of having an enchantment. Having an enchantment is an easier requirement to meet and is more mobile than putting up spirits and being withing its range. But everything balances out as MBaS can remove more than one condition if there are more spirits in earshot range. Both of these skills have same energy cost, casting time and recharge and can both heal and remove conditions. --Shadetz X 04:02, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The whole reason why "nothing else is good enough" is because izzy (or whoever is controlling what actually gets changed) doesn't realize that it's ok for there to be more than 10 viable skills in each profession. The reason we see so many of the same gimmicks these days is because everything else is useless in comparison. If MBnS is "fine," then about 30 monk spells need to be buffed. If burning arrow is "fine," then every other attack skill in the game needs to be doubled in additional damage.

The current state of balance in this game is laughable, if not outright retarded. I am merely comparing this skill to its competition, by competition I mean skills that work very, very similarly (in this case a 5 energy straight heal with possible condition removal). No other skill does exactly this, but the closest skill is orison (which is a straight heal with 1 second difference in recharge), which I've already said takes TWICE as many attribute points to meet mend body and soul in healing alone. Obviously, one of these skills is imbalanced. If you think it's MBnS, then it needs a tone down. If you think it's orison, then 90% of the monk heals need a buff because they all suck compared to MBnS. I am only listing this skill because it is a minority imbalance. If I listed every underpowered skill in the game, it would take about five times as much space on these talk pages. I am a fan of nerfing things to meet competition instead of buffing other things to meet them. Nerfing isn't always bad, it only seems that way when they take away your ability to win without skill. I don't want to see GW continue its power creep, which is already way past the point it should be. Shard 08:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Overall, Restoration Magic is weaker than Healing Prayers, that's why the standard backline is still made up of two Monks, a few skills which may or may not be marginally overpowered aren't enough to cancel that out. I don't think that a weak skill in a popular attribute for a popular profession, such as Healing Prayers, should be a buff priority unless it's a potential counter to something which is being abused, but I agree that, as long as there's a sizeable number of underpowered skills, they should try to buff some of them in every balance update. -- Gordon Ecker 09:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

@Shard: The fact that you dismiss a difference of 1 sec recast on a heal as minuscule shows that your skills obviously lie more in namecalling than in understanding the game. As does the fixation on 12/12 builds as if there wouldn't be any other attribute point distribution possible. As someone else already mentioned, a way more reasonable comparison would be between this and Dismiss Condition, both having the exact same stats, one beeing a guaranteed heal with conditional condition removal, the other beeing a guaranteed condition removal with a conditional heal. The difference in healing gets evened out by divine favour (that is at least if you do not only run 12/12 builds and choose to put those other 12 points not in divine favour). And the fact that MbaS can potentially cure more than one condition is compensated by the much harder to meet condition.

Spiritway on the other hand is a completely different topic. Spiritway does not exist because MbaS is so cool if there are lots of spirits around. MbaS just profits from the Spiritway setup. Since that is a very unnatural setup i wouldn't mind a cap in conditions removed by MbaS like someone else mentioned already. Something along 2-3 based on restoration level just to avoid abuse by some gimmick builds. But the broken part here is spiritway, not MbaS.134.130.183.235 16:42, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, let's compare MBnS and Dismiss at their best case and worst case scenarios. Dismiss=one condition off. MBnS=96 heal. Would you rather have a 96 heal of a single nonheal condition removal? Conditional dismiss=79 (?) heal. Conditional MBnS=1-9 conditions off. Would you rather have 79 heal or (Im being generous) 1 condition off? If this isn't about "dismiss is almost as good as MBnS," it's about how versatile MBnS is. At their worst, MBnS is better (unless dismiss is removing DW). At their best, MBnS is still better. Something is wrong. I know I say this a lot, but this time I really mean it. Learn math. Shard 20:29, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, whatever you did in math you obviously skipped adding and common sense. Those 9 conditions you want to remove so easily with one cast of MBnS actually require 9 spirits, thats 9 skillslots for something stationary on a recast timer of about 30-60 sec that dies like nothing when attacked. In a realistic situation you can be very lucky if you remove one condition with this spell. And i do not know how lousy you skill your monks but mine heals easily about 100 with dismiss condition (with no sup runes used). And the condition is much more easily met. And even if it is not met you still heal for df bonus. So the only thing wrong here is your comprehension skills, but i really can't (and more importaint dont want to) help you with that.134.130.183.235 09:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

How is a conditional heal more easily met than a nonconditional one? My comprehension skills are bad? Your dismiss heals for 100 (with no sup runes added) because you have a primary attribute helping you. So...you're basically saying dismiss and MBnS are identical because one uses two attributes and one doesn't? ok. Shard 09:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Wow, i honestly bow to your skills in not getting the point. I said the condition "target is enchanted" for a monk who is obviously skilled in protection prayers is much more easy to meet than the condition "within earshot of a spirit", because spirits are stationary, have long recharge, are easy to kill and have at best a castingtime of 3 seconds. And i use numbers which are actually realistic and not out of some weird dream. You get 100ish heals of dismiss also with no sup runes with pretty common heal/prot/df skillbars. That is what you dismiss all the time here. What else do you want? Have some points left to skill in fire magic so that your Meteor Shower does more damage??

Balance isn't about making every skill in game exactly the same. It is about considering the pros and cons of a skill and the context it is used in and evening them out. You miss about pretty much every part of it but focussing on the pros of MBnS and the cons of Dismiss. Of course Dismiss is only a conditional heal (though as i tried to explain to you on many occasions with an easy to meet condition), i just chose that for comparison because stat wise they are very similar. MBnS on the other hand is only a conditional condition remover. If that is to difficult to handle for you maybe you have an easier time with balancing against Dwayna's Kiss. That won't get less complex though so i somehow doubt you will get that one either. Then we have on same recast two guaranteed heals. One with the potential to have insane +heal, the other one with the potential of removing conditions. Obviously the +heal of Kiss is much more powerfull than the condition removal. But that gets balanced out again by the fact that kiss can't be used on yourself. Beetlejuice 17:00, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Nonelite RC? OK. The 100+ heal for 5 energy is already powerful enough. The condition removal is just stupid, even in builds that only use a few spirits. Shard 04:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC) RC heals 70 per condition removed, all conditions, reguardless of how many spirits are in earshot. It can heal for upwards of 200 health. Also, I'm going to have to echo what the others have said; spirits will be killed or interrupted and you won't be able to remove conditions. Conditions are so common and frequent that it's just not an option for a healer to be without a condition removal at any time. --TimeToGetIntense 06:28, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

My philosophy about game balance (and many other developers) is that things that "punish" the other team for something theyve done can be better than skills that just do some solid effect. While kiss can be enhanced by your own enchantments, most of the time it's the hex-pam teams you fight against that make it shine. Same for RC. However, Mend is an over-the-staple heal (a 5 staple heal with no drawbacks should go for 70ish in GW) with a controllable condition. Dwayna's kiss is good, but you need a LOT in heal to make it shine. Try running dwayna's on an earth E/Mo and see how successful you are. My problem with rits is that with 12 channel and 12 resto (plus runes), they simultaneously become better damage dealers than pinpoint eles and have better nonelite heals than monks. Someone at arenanet should decide what they really want rits to do, because right now they can do everything. 72.235.48.41 09:25, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

72.235.48.41, you're not considering Divine Favor. 100 heal for 5 energy is about the same as Orison of Healing. However, Reversal of Fortune can easily trump this, it just needs to prevent and heal 40 damage or more. 5 energy for 100 health is nothing amazing, in fact it is pretty weak. Most of the support happens by mitigating damage. Making the bars go up is less efficient by a great deal. --TimeToGetIntense 12:00, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm not considering Divine Favor. Why should I? why should 97 attribute points in a Rit skill do the same as 194 attribute points on a monk skill? I'm comparing skills to skills, not skills to attributes. Here's what you're doing:

"These two skills are identical, but only if one of them is modified by an independent entity."

Go to dictionary.reference.com and look up "comparison." Shard 12:11, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

This will never end. The fact is that you're not convincing anyone because this skill is not a problem in any format at all. No one else thinks this skill is a problem. No matter what anyone says, you have more useless garbage to post. Well, I advise you just drop it and hopefully this useless topic will be archived. --TimeToGetIntense 13:34, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I just read this and I have one thing to say. I feel sorry for Shard because he can't present it just right to get you guys to listen to him on how this skill is massively broken. This completely out-classes even Healing Whisper which is arguably one of the most energy effecient heal other skills in GW. Even if you don't have a single spirit (rather hard to do) within earshot this skill point for point outheals any other 5 energy monk skill in the game. Throw in the ability to remove 2-3 condition and you have something that monks wish they had. RoF is the only thing that come close to this in terms of healing and thats a chancy skill as you might catch a weak attack rather than the hard hitter right behind it. Done25 17:55, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

This skill is not that overpowered and rits are not replacing monks. Most skills in Restoration are outclassed by healing prayers, but monks also get protection prayers and divine favor bonuses. If you leave all your healing to 1 skill your mesmer food, and the condition removal is conditional. This skill is good when used right, but not imba. Antiarchangel 02:44, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, what about a Ritualist with 13 Restoration Magic vs. a Monk with 10 Healing Prayers and 10 Divine Favor? Mend Body and Soul heals for 105 and Orison heals for 85, but if a level 20 character has only 9+1 Divine Favor and 9+1 Healing Prayers, it probably means they're using most of their attribute points and skill slots for something else, and someone with only a few Healing Prayers skills can use Gift af Health, which heals for 137 for 5 Energy at those attribute levels. As for someone specializing heavily into Healing Prayers, they're likely have from 8+1 to 12+1 Divine Favor, and unless they really need to meet a break point or rely heavily on skills that gain little or no benefit from Divine Favor, they're extremely unlikely to have less than 6+1 Divine Favor. As for Energy efficiency, Monks have Signet of Devotion and Signet of Rejuvenation. I think the root of the problem is Spawning Power. Ritualists have a weak, narrowly applicable primary attribute, most of their skills gain little or no benefit from it, so, rather than having their power adjusted downward to account for Primary Attribute synergy like Monk skills, their power is adjusted upward to account for the lack of Primary Attribute synergy, which allows many Ritualist builds to ignore Spawning Power with little or no drawback. I think the solution is to make the inherent effect of Spawning Power useful for something other than Weapon Spells and summoning skills (such as reducing the cost of Ritualist skills by X% per rank, or giving Ritualists spells Y% armor penetration and +Z% healing per rank) and then nerfing Ritualist skills to account for the buff, forcing Ritualists to choose between power and versitility just like everyone else. -- Gordon Ecker 03:03, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Gordon, you reinforce another point I've been trying to make. Skills should not be downtoned because of a profession's primary attribute. The point of a primary attribute is so your character has some kind of bonus, not some kind of prerequisite for using HIS OWN PROFESSION'S skills. Monk skills should either heal more, or rit skills should heal less. There is NO reason why Orison and, say, Soothing Memories can't heal for the same thing (or soothing for a bit less since it usually costs 2). There is no reason why most of the good mesmer skills have 2-3 second casts. There is no reason why dervish attack skills do more than warrior attack skills. Primaries should add variety to the game, not restrict what you can run. 72.235.48.41 21:43, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Splinter Weapon

Why is it not on here? AoE unclassed physical damage. This, ancestor's rage, and weapon of warding are pretty much the only reasons ritualists exist in pvp

and izzy/anet wants rt in pvp. and rt needs some imba skills to stay in pvp.

splinter weapon and ancestor's rage the ONLY skills that keeps channeling line alive , i don't consider this overpowered , it's good the way it is now 189.70.208.9 18:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Rits only have around 16 good skills, less than any other profession. Izzy needs to nerf about 8 of them, then buff the other ~150. Being a sh**ty profession doesn't give that profession the right to have broken skills. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 10:05, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

remove rits from the game then. the most underpowered class with almost no good skills , so buff the other 150 skills before nerfing the ones that you claim to be overpowered , or else rits are just going to be totally useless for a long time 189.70.172.169 19:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

/agree: The class is not far from losing its legitimation. Necro players, Paragons and other classes were complaining with every nerf, that there classes didn't work anymore - but in fact they did. But the Ritu has become the worst class - i think - since most of its spirits were nerfed to death... A. von Rin 03:41, 17 February 2008 (UTC)