User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Overpowered Skills/Warrior/archive 1

Tiger Stance

This skill is currently used by SP assassins as a replacement for the nerfed Burst of Aggression. Since it has the same recharge as Shadow Prison and the "ends if any of your attacks fail to hit" part doesn't actually hurt assassins (since missing means they can't continue their combo anyway) this skill has become the perfect IAS for them. Especially in Hero Battles this is one of the skills that makes assassins just too good at spiking down their opponent, and all they have to do for it is simply pick a target, press button 1, 2, ..., 8 on their keyboard and repeat 20 seconds later. I'd like to see this skill nerfed in the same way as BoA ("For 2...8...10 seconds, you attack 33% faster."). Assassins would probably start using Lightning Reflexes afterwards but at least that skill has a 30s recharge and 10 energy cost making it a bit less compatible with Shadow Prison. --Draikin 17:33, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

There is a much, much, much better skill out there for assassins than Tiger Stance. If you don't mind giving up 17-24 damage of your combo. -- 21:05, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd go with Flurry too. It only reduces your base damage, which is pretty low anyway. All the crazy bonus damage still goes through. I don't think these Assassins are overpowered anyway. If anything, I think Assassins without IAS are underpowered. --TimeToGetIntense 21:54, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Nerf Tiger Stance and it won't nerf the SP sin. They (along with a lot of other melee builds need the IAS in order to spike effectively. I do understand where you are coming from since you specifically mentioned Hero Battles, and the SP sin dominates totally, but this is not a case of the skills being overpowered, if they were overpowered they would be dominating elsewhere as well, in stead, this is a cas of poor balance for HB coupled with the very limited AI of ther heros allowing them to only effectively use certain builds. The SP sin as a whole is not overpowered, it does what an assassin is meant to, efficiently kill one target. Which is why they work so well on a Split, but have you seen how effective they are when they are forced to become part of their team when its 8v8 in GvG, very un-effective. Its very easy to see their target and because after their chain of attacks has finished they have no pressure to finish the kill, they rarely score kills against good monks.--ChronicinabilitY 22:26, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I realize that the real problem with Hero Battles are not the SP sins. If we could fight them 4v4 all the time there wouldn't be a problem but in HB that's simply not the case. Of course if the SP sin were nerfed into oblivion people would just use the next best thing, Recall Mo/A runner builds, which is even worse. That said I think those real problems won't be solved anytime soon, while a small change like this should be easy to implement and would still have a positive effect. They would still be able to spike down their opponent but just not as fast anymore. At least it will actually hurt their build (at least I think it would, I don't see any alternative for Tiger Stance that doesn't have a downside to it); the nerf to Expose Defenses didn't change anything for that matter (that one should get a 30s recharge to really make a difference). --Draikin 00:22, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Flurry is just fine, if not better. It barely affects your combo damage because it only affects your base 7-17 damage. --TimeToGetIntense 00:26, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I've yet to see anyone use flurry on a SP sin in Hero Battles. There's simply no point in using it when Tiger Stance gives you everything you need without the reduced damage. --Draikin 01:29, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

That may be true, but no reason to nerf Tiger Stance. It's not going to make those builds take more skill to play or anything. --TimeToGetIntense 02:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, don't nerf it to much I suppose. My suggestion would be 1...8...10 so that it still has the same maximum but it has a steeper slope so only Warriors will be using it, how it was intended to be.--§ Eloc § 04:01, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

And why do you think all SP sins in GvG run Tiger Stance if Flurry is better? Seriously Tiger Stance IS superior on an SP sin, i really don't see why it wouldn't be. 25% of 6 hits is 1.5 dagger attack, and this can easily be 30-40 damage or more if you crit a lot, and considering SP sins often come very close to their kill straight and have a HUGE DPS drop after the combo is done (even if they have Flurry), they need to be as close to the kill as possible when the combo is over, and sacrificing that damage doesn't really make any sense. On a build like Moebius where you're constantly spiking, Flurry is more interesting, but SP sins don't actually spike more than every 20s in general, and then they have TS ready for it. I don't see at all why you'd use Flurry instead, or why TS shouldn't be scaled the same way BoA was. It really replaced it with no downside at all or nearly, and it's not like fixing the scaling would hurt warriors much. 24.202.127.119 04:29, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

If we follow the logic that "if we nerf this IAS, SP sins will be balanced!" we'll have to nerf every single IAS in the game, which is, frankly, stupid. The problem with SP sins isn't the IAS (those, basically, don't matter; any IAS will do), it's the entire rest of the bar (including expose, as discussed above). -Auron 04:44, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Not all of them, just make the ones in Strength Attribute have a higher slope. They can use Frenzy as you can't really change that.--§ Eloc § 05:43, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

If they all started using Frenzy because it was the only IAS left, people would bitch about it. Seriously, look at Tiger Stance - 20 second recharge and it lasts 4 seconds?! If people want that nerfed, they're not going to stop for frenzy. -Auron 05:56, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Only reason it's 4 seconds is because it's for Warriors only, and it should stay that way. They should change the steepness of the skill to be 1...8...10 as it would end in the same amount but be lower first off.--§ Eloc § 06:06, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

STOP already!...stop talking about nerfing it! It's not overpowered! Just because it is an integral part of a certain build doesnt mean that its overpowered. The problem is Hero Battles and for some reason you think nerfing SP sins, wait, nerfing ONE SKILL and SP sin uses is going to solve that. It's Not! This skill is not overpowered. --ChronicinabilitY 15:18, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah seriously. Can we like, have a vote to have Izzy archive this? --TimeToGetIntense 22:05, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

IAS isn't broken. The rest of the bar is. Fixing the wrong skills doesn't help. -Ensign 23:30, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Well actually, that's quite true. The rest of the bar needs a fix more than every other IAS needing a nerf. Patccmoi 02:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

<---- Left Justify FTW: Assassins currently have 1 or 2 builds that do their job. Generally they are pretty easily countered. The only skill that is really questionable is Expose Defenses and thats only because of the changes to block/dodge. Assassins are meant to spike, well... thats what assn builds do. This is 1 of the few build that do that very well. Still, 1 prot spirit, or similar antispike skill (non dodge) and the entire attack is countered. All in all it is very effective, but really not overpowered as a build. --Midnight08 06:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Saying the build is fine because assassins are meant to spike down their opponent is like saying Searing Flames wasn't overpowered because fire magic is supposed to deal a lot of damage. Were assassins really meant to spike down their target without any help from full health to zero in 4 seconds? I guess it's true that Tiger Stance isn't the key skill that needs to be nerfed here but it's still the IAS that makes the skill bar even better than it already is. Nerfing the energy gain from Black Lotus Strike might be the real key to balancing this build, since without it they couldn't start their combo to begin with after spending 35 energy before they even land their first hit. Personally I don't care which skill is nerfed as long as it does something about the build, unlike the previous Expose Defenses nerf which changed nothing at all. --Draikin 11:45, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Personally i think one of the main thing that needs to be balanced about this setup, and other fairly common assassin spike setups, is the damage of straight offhands. Those tend to have better effect AND more, or about the same, damage than offhands requiring a lead. Nerfing the damage on BLS/BSS would make this less of a straight kill combo, and it seems fair to lose damage in your offhands if your combo allows for an extra dual. Patccmoi 14:43, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Cmon guys i'm arguing with the same 3 people on like 6 topics... The only place SP Sins seem "Overpowered" is in HB... thats 1 aspect of the game out of like 10... I REALLY wouldnt call that overpowered... especially since the part of the game were talking about (HB) is pretty broken to beginwith --Midnight08 16:57, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

This is a long discussion and seems to have poored over to be about sins, so I'll give you my quick take on it, I don't think Tiger Stance is overpowered by any means. The problem with assassins right now is diversity, I'll probably end up nerfing these guys and trying to force non Hex based sins in order to change up how the game plays. ~Izzy @-'---- 18:52, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Wait, the problem would be diversity? The fact that only one build is actually being used by 90% of the Assassins out there?

Though I run a plethora of non-SP builds (it's gotten boring after 3 weeks of 'abuse', when people didn't know how to counter it), mostly even anti-SP sin builds in AB's... but they're so specific or just not good enough to be used anywhere else. Mainly because there is no other good build. If you take down the Shadow Prison build right now, the Assassin is straight back where it used to be, pre-NF. Fixing Lead Attacks and Off-Hands that require Leads would be a very good start, as I've only found one build so far, that can utilize a L-OH-D order. And it needs a conjure to deal enough damage. I basically need Conjure X (Making me spread my attributes across 4 attributes) to deal enough damage using any other build than a SP sin. Trust me, I've spent hours trying to think of new builds, even a A/Rt with Nightmare Weapon and Wielder's Strike; though it killed stuff, it was just not good enough to be used seriously, anywhere. Maybe changing Critical Strikes and giving it lower breakpoints for the energy gain, would also make us able to put more points into Dagger Mastery, effectively upping our damage by a slight margin. Saph 15:36, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Stop trying to nerf warrior IAS skills to nerf SP builds. BoA and Tiger Stance were always less than optimal choices for that bar. The simple truth is SP don't need an IAS, they can use that slot for interrupts, condition removal, hex removal, and a ton of other things. You only need an IAS if you are trying to spike in a stand build or HA build with a sin. Nerfing tiger stance to deal with SP sins is like nerfing fire attunement to deal with Searing flames eles. -Warskull 21:57, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

yup. the discussions you should join are this one and this one. btw, all skills from the SP sin have their own discussions by now, while only two of them are overpowered: black lotus strike and blades of steel. - Y0_ich_halt 22:08, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Steady Stance combo

Really. Spammable conditions, heavy damage, Armor increase from "WY!" and E-Denial from "FM!". I'd even go as far to say that it's a strong as SF was pre-double nerf. I have NO idea how to nerf this without completely making SS Warriors unusable, but I think the problem is in the Adrenaline gain and Recharge. Pre-stance this, use DD, stance again, use DD.

It's even worse in team setting, where 3 SS Wars can chip off 24 AoE Energy in <5 seconds. I'd guess lower the Adren gain or increase recharge, but I'm afraid of an over-nerf. NeonCrusader 18:04, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Steady Stance has a special place in my heart so it's hard for me to nerf this, the biggest thing I like about this is it enables a bunch of skills that would never see light of day and bring them to use, the character end up losing a lot of normal skills warriors have and I find the trade of interesting. The counter to these guys is super strong as kiting them destroys their damage, the Hammer guy is a little stronger vs people Kitting, while the Scythe version is better vs grouping up and wards. I feel these guys are totally in bounds and I think the past nerfs have brought them in line. ~Izzy @-'---- 18:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

And this doesn't worry you? Hasty Refrain Patccmoi 19:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree that there's nothing much wrong with Steady Stance itself. The issue is that SS charges Fear Me! in one hit (and it works even if you're blind or blocked), and Fear Me! is the strongest e-denial skill in the game. The HAnD e-denial triple hex build using an SS scythe warrior is still almost certainly the strongest non-gimmick 8v8 build in the game (see HAnD's rise to r1, then steep fall after they switched build, or vD's dominance of two consecutive monthlies mainly using the build), and it requires very little skill to play effectively. The Fear Me! spam is a big part of that. Personally I'd leave SS as it is and make Fear Me! 5 or 6 adrenaline - it won't make the skill bad and the SS guy can still spam Hammer Bash and/or Watch Yourself as before. Errr 09:33, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Just for you're info HAnD's swift fall wasn't because of that, it was because for an entire couple of days 4 members took heros into battle and just sacced themselves into flawless defeats. --ChronicinabilitY 16:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I think one issue with it is that it really avoids a lot of the common warrior shutdown, I think one way to nerf the combo would be to make Drunken Blow and Desperation Blow only KD if they hit. As it is they can be missing for a good few minutes because they are shut down due to blind/hexes but eventually they will drain so much energy that it will be hard to keep up. And 3 warriors running this can do some seriously hefty E-Denial spikes, with a "fear me" already charged and a ss & drunken blow ready they can drain 8 energy each instantly. Drunken and Desperation Blow have absolutely no place outside of the Steady Stance bar, I don't think changing them slightly will change this. I guess the fear is it might hurt the current Steady Stance bar too much, which I think is pretty clear you like :-p - But imo, it promotes a skilless button mashing warrior style that is very strong. Yesitsrob 19:44, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

This bar is going to be crazy again with the addition of Grapple. EDIT: Nevermind, I see you've already dealt with that. ^_^ --TimeToGetIntense 04:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Are you factoring in the recent change which makes Grapple pretty much a non-combo with Steady Stance? (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 04:26, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, see how I corrected myself? I don't know how to do that fancy cross-out-text thing. --TimeToGetIntense 05:39, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

This skill is gimmick garbage and counter productive for good gameplay. It reminds me of IWAY, something kinda cute but really bad for the overall game construct. --Black mischief 07:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

At least IWAY was a bunch of axe wars running around eviscerating people, where skill in target selection, adren unloads, and interrupt timing made a big difference in the build effectiveness. SS fearme warriors are just button-mashers doing a crazy amount of aoe edenial & damage pressure, and it's just plain bad for competition no matter how 'interesting' the skill selection is. Gus 10:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Yea, it's probably worse than IWAY. Anyhow, it's trash that should be nerfed into uselessness or PvE usefulness only. --Black mischief 04:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Easy fix for SS combo is to either 1) increase SS recharge to around 10, 2) nerf SS so it doesn't give any energy back. 3) make drunken only kd when it hits. Pick one or any combination of these 3 will take care of the gimmicks but still allow it to be playable.Phoenixtech 14:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

If you're trying to prevent a knockdown, a ten-second recharge works just as well as a six-second recharge. If you're trying to repeatedly trigger this yourself as fast as possible (which is the problem), then the ten-second recharge is definitely a kick in the pants. At ten seconds, you can still use Drunken Blow for a nice combo, and even spam Fear Me, but it's going to be limited to once every ten seconds, rather then once every 6 seconds. That alone will, hopefully, leave opposing players with enough energy to fight back effectively... the build is a fun little gimmick at the moment, but nothing seriously overpowered. It's just a little too fast of a combo. stretching out recharge of this one skill will stretch out the speed of the combo by an equal amount. You could even go with a higher recharge then ten, but in that case, it would only be fair to raise the duration of the skill as well, to allow other players to still use the skill (for running in KD-infested areas, etc.). -- Jioruji Derako.> 12:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

An alternate idea would be to make it function like balanced stance: Long duration/Long recharge, but give only 1-2 adrenalin (or some other bonus effect) when you are KD. This allows for the "fun" combos that you had intended and makes it harder to abuse. Phoenixtech 14:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

This stuff is overpowered, boring and no fun to play. I wouldn't mind if it gets nerfed into oblivion. -Void 15:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

To give Void's comment some context - this is not someone who doesn't use the skill, it's someone who has just won his second consecutive monthly tournament running an SS warrior in I'd guess half the matches. Errr 17:25, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, last Saturday was pretty much the first time ever i played Fear Me war, but you don't even have to do that to figure out how overpowered and boring it is. A 10 second recharge for Steady Stance sounds cool. -Void 21:29, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd agree that drunken needs to not KD on miss, doesnt make much sense to be e-denied by a warrior who cant hit you. Or maybe something should just be done about "Fear Me!", it really is an oddball skill, energy denial on a melee class seems wierd to begin with.--TheLordOfBlah 19:08, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Steady Stance is one of those skills that really doesn't need another nerf. It's been nerfed once and still sees use, and the use isn't necessarily overpowering. If anything, slightly reduce the energy lost from "Fear Me!", or reduce its area of effect to Adjacent, or even increasing the adrenaline req to 5 strikes to prevent the one-hit-charge it has with SS + DB/DB. Steady Stance is the wrong skill to nerf here, since it gives DB/DB along with itself, a nice combo that people would use. 76.64.59.41 05:41, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I would rather see a nerf to fear me than the skill itself.--Atlas Oranos 07:53, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking you could give Fearme a recharge, something small like 2 seconds, so that it isn't as spammable. The pressure SS wars cause from Desp/drunken blow is good, but the fearme spam is what rips teams apart. IMO steady stance itself is a nice skill...it's only the "Aura of -5 energy regen" that makes the build godly. Shard 04:13, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah I found this place finally! :) NERF THE STEADY STANCE COMBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *frustration...* Servant of Kali 12:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Make Fear me have 6 adren cost or 8 recharge. it will take alot of the sting out of this build, currently fear me is only used on zerg warriors or sins so noboddy cares about them but zeg-ers. making it 6 adrenaline increases the reusablilty of the fear me shout to about 8 seconds because u need to give another hit. Another possiblity is to increase it even more to say 8 so they will just have to do 2 stesy stances, increasing the reusability to 12. But then the newly changed for great justice will be used with it in order to keep spamming when its up. I wouldn 't touch steady stance because it has been nerfed before allready. Another option is to edit the drunken and desperation blow skills and add a condition to being stanced. Like: if sttanced: no knockdown, -2 energy, no condition is applied, bonus dammage is half(for a minor nerf) Or if u realy out for this build make it lose stances before you use one of them. Another option is to check if they actualy get a knockdown, and if they don 't add your nerf in there, half adrenaline, lose all adrenaline, you gain no adrenaline, gain no energy, this skill is disabled for an extra x seconds, your attack skills are disabeled for 12 seconds,... countless options here realy.84.192.118.21 08:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Sigh...these are not nerfs for the better, these are just people QQing over a skill they don't like. Fear Me is not a good skill without SS. SS is not a good skill without Fear Me. There is no point to nerf combo's as gimmicky as this. If you cannot win in HA because of this build, plx use Vent and Skill...and Teamwork...but mostly skill. Srsly, lrn2deal. Readem (talk*gwwcontribs) 07:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

What is your opinion on this skill after my last set of changes to this combo? ~Izzy @-'---- 23:59, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

What with your GW:EN changes I think Mo Supportive Spirit is even weaker than than your "super weak" comment on the underpowered page so here's a suggestion to tweak it without "reducing the cost": buff the skill by having it add more adrenaline (when you take damage, while knocked down). Instead of "this combo" (i.e. Steady Stance or other prevention + benefit) you then have builds with "unsteady stance" + benefit ala Drunken Master (seen that movie?!). Crystalion 07:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

A few comments can be found here: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User_talk:Isaiah_Cartwright/Update20070810

Seems to be pretty okay now that you can actually shut this guy down - it's still a strong type of warrior. -Void 11:51, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

"Fear Me!"

Please change the cost of this skill to 5 strikes of adrenaline, so SS cant use on every hit. This wouldnt affect other builds using this skill, but would help against this type of build. As it was said before, "Fear Me!" is the best AoE e-denial of the game, so 5 strikes of adrenaline doesnt seem much for me. This is my opinion anyway. - Kiji 23:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

SS wars were nerfed so they aren't very effective anymore.

Frenzy

Duration overpowered compared to Flurry 70.132.2.120 02:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I lol'd--Atlas Oranos 03:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

LOL!!! Do i really need to explain the down-side to this skill! And it's a lot worse than dealing 25% less damage! So much so that Frenzy actually takes up 2 slots on you're bar. --ChronicinabilitY 05:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I read this and I lol'd. --Tankity Tank 06:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

LoL... --Indecision 07:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

wow, i think there's no skill better balanced than frenzy in gw... - Y0_ich_halt 12:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Laugh all you want but the skill is overpowered or otherwise it wouldn't be used as much as it is. There are so many attack speed increase skills but Frenzy is the one used most of all (like 90% of the time); it's definitely overpowered (duration, recharge) and deserves to be nerfed. Anyone with a brain cell knows how to cancel Frenzy with another stance to avoid the damage. It's too powerful and too easy to reapply when needed. 70.132.2.120 18:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

It's used all the time in PvP because it's a reliable IAS. Flail is the best thing to happen to IAS in PvE ever. Frenzy is a useless skill slot the moment the warrior becomes the focus of any kind of damage. This skill is so popular because it's always available and doesn't interfere with attacking. - HeWhoIsPale 18:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

"widely used == overpowered" lolwut? --212.112.241.44 18:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Frenzy is perfect. If is one of the best IAS skills in the game, but it has a huge drawback. Thus you need a stance cancel with it. You ability to cancel your frenzy determines how good it performs. This skills gets better in the hands of good players and can get a bad player killed. That is perfect. -Warskull 03:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Just ignore this guy he's trolling. He also says that Res Sig is overpowered if you see first page. --ChronicinabilitY 05:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

No I'm not trolling, Warskull proved my point because if people are calling Frenzy "perfect" then it's an indication that it's overpowered. Synonyms for perfect: flawless, absolute, accomplished, beyond compare, blameless, crowning, culminating, defectless, excellent, excelling, experienced, expert, faultless, finished, foolproof, ideal, immaculate, impeccable, indefectible, masterful, masterly, matchless, paradisiac, paradisiacal, peerless, pure, skilled, skillful, sound, splendid, spotless, stainless, sublime, superb, supreme, unblemished. Now why would you call Frenzy "perfect" unless you thought the skill was really good. And if Frenzy is perfect, that means there must exist other skills which are imperfect. You don't use those imperfect skills because they are underpowered or have drawbacks worse than Frenzy. I'm pointing out facts that lead to the conclusion Frenzy is overpowered. Do you really think the high usage of a skill doesn't connect with its power level? I think you guys are just in denial about Frenzy being overpowered because you don't want to see your favorite skill getting nerfed. You're like people that denied Searing Flames was overpowered, IWAY was overpowered, Ritualist Spike was overpowered, etc. I mean how could IWAY be overpowered? You need dead allies for it to work! It's balanced...blah blah but it got nerfed anyway. Frenzy is way overdue for a nerf and once it does get nerfed maybe we'll finally see some variety in warrior builds. 70.132.2.120 11:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Favorite skill? I hates frenzy. I play PvE most of the time, where even Berserker Stance is better than frenzy. For skilled players frenzy is ideal, if you get caught off guard though, you're instaspiked. Powerful effect with a powerful drawback. All the other IAS's have weaker effects, but also have weaker drawbacks. Sounds balanced to me. - HeWhoIsPale 12:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

This is a balance discussion. If someone describes something as "perfect" within the context of balance, they could easily be describing it as perfectly balanced rather than supremely powerful. -- Gordon Ecker 21:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

By perfect he meant perfectly balanced. please uninstall --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:210.9.139.109 .

The reason everyone uses Frenzy is that the other options are underpowered rather than that Frenzy is overpowered. skaspaakssa 13:45, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

(Reset indent) imo the reason for frenzy being abused is the current meta. all or at least most warrior builds have another stance to cancel frenzy anyways, so it's the best deal. if the meta had more builds without any other stance required, the other IAS might find use, too. - Y0_ich_halt 14:38, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Random IP, please try not to judge people when you have no way of accurately doing so. Frenzy is used because it has the least downsides to your damage. Even if it got a 5 second duration, do you really think this would change anything at all? Its good for what it does, and there has not been a good alternative to stop it, so please, suggest some other buffs instead of nerfing a balanced skill.--Atlas Oranos 05:49, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

A reason it's hard to punish sloppy frenzy use is Light of Deliverance. You can land some good hits on a warrior in frenzy, and unless it was a full-on spike, that damage is negated the moment he drops below 80%. Prior to Nightfall, prior to heal party bots even, every bit of damage you took was a hit to your monks' energy, but no longer with easy, spammable spread-healing to patch up everyone's kiting/positioning/frenzy mistakes. Shame that.Asp 04:08, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

That is just simply not true. If you catch a warrior in frenzy and dont force active prot/heal by their monks then you are simply playing bad. If i (playing warrior) catch another warrior in frenzy and get a KD i'd expect to forc their monks to have to use very active prot (SoD etc). If you can't take advantage of situations like catching a warrior in frenzy thenyou're not going to be winning. The down side to this skill can be devastating. It's perfectly balanced as is.--ChronicinabilitY 10:18, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, if their monks are simply red-barring, they'll drop prots on a warrior not immediately in risk of dying from taking one or two hits under frenzy. Any warrior can cancel frenzy, that's not under discussion, I'm just saying that before spread-healing you'd wanna avoid taking any hits at all, but there's more leeway with LoD, and monks who actually have field awareness - Asp 17:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

All monks should have field awareness, and if they are simply red bar watching then they will either have a lot of deaths since they cant heal as fast as the damage can be dealt without pre-prot...or they'll be spamming on a 40/40 set in order to heal fast enough, and be out of energy very fast. I'm not saying monks can't deal with it...they can, but what i'm trying to say is that the risk with frenzy is that a mistake can force action from the monks which they normally would have not taken,therefore costing the team energy. The skill shouldnt be so drastic that a monk can't keep you up through a mistake, otherwise the skill is too much of a liability and people just wont take it. Frenzy is good for the game as it is right now. I can't think of a more balanced skill tbh. --ChronicinabilitY 23:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh don't get me wrong I'm not saying Frenzy's imbalanced at all, I'm just saying it's much easier to use now, than it was before, a major, but not necessarily primary factor of this being easier spread-healing through LoD, or the increased popularity of off-monk defense in the form of midline rits, SoR runners, and third monk runners, along with the phasing out of non-cancel warriors from back in prophecies (Charge, anyone?), and midline blackout to lock warriors into frenzy. Also included in the increased ease-of-play is the fact that passive midline defense is so readily available in conjunction with spread-healing to make frontline spikes that much more obvious. Realistically even bad warriors won't take more than 2 hits under frenzy, as large chunks of damage tend to charge Rush immediately, assuming it wasn't fully charged to begin with, and thry're not really in danger of dying anyway, unless that incoming damage was part of an actual frontline spike, in which case it'd be protted and rehealed regardless of the few hits taken in excess. My point is that the excess damage on your frontline not including full-on spikes were more significant back before lod (and to a limited extent, e/mo prodigy runners). All these things that make Frenzy easymode IAS (as opposed to pre-NF, pre-Factions) aside, it's still balanced, I agree - Asp 09:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe what dude was trying to say by comparing it to flurry is that flurry's duration should be increased? I personally think an 8 second flurry to match frenzy's 8 second would be great. Frenzy: IAS, but 2x damage taken. Flurry: IAS but 25% less damage dealt. Both of them are unliked stances that are IAS,cost 5ene, but frenzy is 3 seconds longer. I see no good reason for them not to have the same duration.--Ryudo 18:39, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

By giving flurry an 8 second duration you would actually be nerfing it. --ChronicinabilitY 18:51, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

How would it be a nerf? The attack speed increase is more than enough to cancel out the damage decrease without taking the increased adrenaline gain into account. Would decreasing Flurry's duration be a buff? -- Gordon Ecker 23:51, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe they could nerf it by making the user take double damage, forcing them to bring a second skill to make sure this one doesn't kill them. That would be balanced.

People use frenzy because it's the only IAS that you can keep on 100% of the time with little energy and doesn't reduce your damage (like flurry). Not overpowered. If you don't like it, hit the people who use it and kill them. It's not hard. Shard 02:16, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Someone honestly just suggested nerfing frenzy...please, if you are bad at the game don't comment. Readem Warning: Ignore this User if at all possible. 05:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

WARNING!WARNING!NOOB ALERT! lol nerfing frenzy?? tell me what the hell have you been smoking??