I ...believe the sequel will fail as bad as Diablo III
- re: your statement, I personally believe the sequel will fail as bad as Diablo III
You're kidding, right?
- Diablo III hasn't failed. Although Blizzard sure tried to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, the game is still being sold in large quantities. (Of course, those numbers would have been far better if the big B hadn't skimped on peak-load capacity during the game's first month — penny wise, pound foolish once again). Plus, tons of people are still playing.
- GW2 is unlikely to suffer the same issues:
- ANet doesn't usually make the same mistake twice (and they learn from failures of other companies and other games).
- Everyone I know who has tried GW2 during BWE is more enthusiastic than ever, even those who were only joining the bandwagon originally.
- The game has been extensively stress tested (and ANet has delivered quick responses to game-snarling or progress-blocking issues).
Of course, I don't blame you for waiting three months to see what happens (I almost always do that with new software, to let other people discover the issues; GW2 is an extremely rare exception). – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 17:35, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
- ANet aspects that worry me are:
- Notably: Jade Quarry bots. I can't exactly remember which and when was the Game Update that banned 3.700 accounts. I can't trust such Developer group which has several terms and conditions like the EULA but freely allows bots to massively reign the game for years. By Japanese standards it is beyond disastrous and any organization with such grade of incompetence would be totally disbanded (I shall keep working my BvB rant). Gaile Gray has completely ignored and neglected player's complains and the excuse being: "-We are busy with GW2.-".
- The /report feature is ubber fail and it doesn't clean the arenas for the good players but only punishes honest people.
- ANet shows much interest in Trivias but very little Morale, some game features are scary like Tihark_Orchard#Bonus - Obtain a rare vase from Jejumba, easy option.
- Plus as a Guild Leader I never found support to keep the game a "safe and fun place to play". Administration has always been a game inside a game. We never had any prevention method to counter guild spikes for example. See Feedback:User/Yoshida Keiji/Guild Management, other cases being "Spies", "back-stabbing" and "no negative effects for treachery" like alliance leading guilds dumping the smaller ones to steal their members. Not to mention that account restoration for hacked users was only developed at lates 2011. ANet doesn't allow us to go "Character Hunting" and a lot of bad intended people run free with little we can do to keep our guilds a decent group. Guild Wars doesn't have any sort of rewards for guild's merit to obtain achievements based on remarkable effots but only the 2012 Automated Tournament Series Trophy...
- This of course takes me to the most failing area: PvE changes based on PvP...while PvP has been epically dead for years. I worked my Gladiator ranks hard but never could raise my Hero (title) for the bambi. And all those messed up Skill Updates by the Test Krewe which despite being in charge of testing changes before incorporation...they mostly looked like a bunch of monkeys pressing buttons.
- When I see the GW2 "new" features and the gw2:revive system with: "-Dying is okay.-" (in the preview trailer)... It all points the sequel for the ubber retarded noobs and no single care for the good players and I feel there's going to be very little challenge for the decent gamers. I mean, in 7 years of GW1... people never learnt to cap in AB, JQ... to not open the Green Gate in FA when Luxons are nearby...and in GW2...a sligthly harder arena will make it really imposible for decent players to "really" enjoy challenge... I would certainly be thrown again to team up with bunches or incompetent people who will never listen.
- The instance battles and the no physical dimension for character body means its all going to be brute force, 5.000 characters versus 5.000 characters with no tactics and strategy display needed and never matter about it not even once...
- So far all videos I have watched are players behaving like FPS games with a gun and spamming skill 1 non-stop during the whole video...is that really all?
- No monks...since when RPGs have no monks...? I don't think I need to express much about this.
- I don't think ANet has learnt from their owns mistakes at all, but spent their time making stupid costumes. Finally if you don't see me in GW2W...you may most probably find me in another Wiki, of course I will be in GW2W (at the beginning only) because of personal interest to develop my wiki understanding and witness how a wiki is affected during game launch (will help in the bookkeeping area mostly). Yoshida Keiji talk 07:30, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
- I love bashing anet but there's a lot of ignant here, and ignance is never good.
- "I can't trust such Developer group which has several terms and conditions like the EULA but freely allows bots to massively reign the game for years."
- Yes, botting was a problem in GW1 - the relatively small company made a competitive game focused around PvP, and set up no protections against bots of any kind. Botting in PvE was a "problem" (not that the PvE economy mattered in the least, and not that botting was even the biggest flaw in said economy), but only when botting started interfering with the PvP aspect did they start banning accounts. Unfortunately, the tiny amount of staff the company had to throw at the issue was a joke compared to the amount of bot accounts - I'm not even really sure what all ANet tried to combat the bot problem, but they never got a solution that seemed to work - but because JQ wasn't ever a real PvP mode, it was pretty low prio when it comes to getting bots out of it. GW2 is a purely PvE MMO with almost no focus on PvP; in theory, more attention will be paid to the details that are required for PvE games with PvE economies (like bot prevention/punishment, auction houses, and a competent support staff).
- "Administration has always been a game inside a game. We never had any prevention method to counter guild spikes for example... Guild Wars doesn't have any sort of rewards for guild's merit to obtain achievements based on remarkable effots but only the 2012 Automated Tournament Series Trophy... "
- Yes, PvE guild drama was pretty much a complete non-concern of theirs when they designed the guild and alliance systems. Yes, the only reward for guilds to actually earn are PvP ones. Is this a surprise? You are playing a competitive PvP online RPG, after all. Getting mad over the lack of PvE guild support is like going into an Apple store and getting mad when they don't stock charging cables for your android phone. Again, however, given that GW2 is a *dedicated PvE MMO*, simple issues like those related to guild administration and abuse will most likely be addressed (more on this at the bottom).
- "This of course takes me to the most failing area: PvE changes based on PvP..."
- Guild Wars has over 1200 skills that all work fine for clearing all PvE areas, because the PvE areas are easy as hell. If a single gimmick gets nerfed because it also happened to be a problem in PvP, pick from the other 1192 skills, don't get mad over the 8 that were breaking the game and are no longer allowed to do so. ANet specifically added in PvE/PvP skill splits so whiners would whine less - most of the bigger gimmicks have PvE versions available that are every bit as imbalanced as they always were, to make PvE that much easier to clear. This is on top of the list of PvE-only skills that break the game so hilariously they aren't even allowed in PvP! AoE daze, party-wide 88.5% damage reduction, shout-range KD and cripple, shout range Deep Wound and Cracked Armor, ward-range party buff that increases the damage of every skill and autoattack by 15... and you really need that 1 skill they nerfed from abuse in PvP to clear any PvE area? Really? Because this is such a ridiculous argument, let me point out how absolutely game-breaking 88.5% damage reduction is. You know The Underworld? You know how it used to be hard and scary? It had this monster called Aatxe that melee'd casters for 200, 300 damage and quickly tore them to shreds. 88.5% damage reduction brings that down to a whopping 30, an amount so tiny it gets regularly outhealed by passive party healing present in most current builds. After all this, it really bothers you that 1-5 skills every 6 months get picked out for PvP nerfs, and 1-3 end up being split for PvE anyway?
- "I worked my Gladiator ranks hard but never could raise my Hero (title) for the bambi."
- Erm... you couldn't even get rank 3 hero and you want "challenges" for "decent players?" Be real. Hero rank wasn't even the one that was actually hard - it was the one everyone who PvP'd at all had by default, because HA was the casual "let's talk on vent" PvP mode for the nights when nobody was in the mood for GvG.
- "And all those messed up Skill Updates by the Test Krewe which despite being in charge of testing changes before incorporation...they mostly looked like a bunch of monkeys pressing buttons."
- Without losing too much tact, let me just request that you don't talk about something unless you have the first clue what you're talking about. ANet signed on 16 PvPers from around the world (yes, only 16, compared to 180+ pvers), and I was one of them. We were tasked with the insurmountable challenge of balancing Guild Wars; or at least, giving sufficient input that any future changes didn't fuck up the balance any more than it already was. This plan was a massive failure. 16 people spread out around the globe couldn't even be online at the same time to do 8v8 scrims, let alone judge the effectiveness of various changes to skills in any kind of a timely manner, and when we could, our feedback was largely ignored by ANet. A good example is the mesmer "revamp." For weeks, the mesmer changes were only listed in a PvE thread, and the changes were all supposed to be only to the PvE versions of skills - then we got a post in the PvP section saying "hey, by the way, those PvE changes none of you have looked at? yeah we're putting those in PvP as well, try to give us quick feedback!" With the response being a 5-page thread of overwhelming negativity complete with several writeups on specific abilities and why they shouldn't exist in PvP, guess how many got fixed before ANet pushed the change through? A whole zero! So please, do *not* blame the failures of ANet on anyone except ANet staff.
- "It all points the sequel for the ubber retarded noobs and no single care for the good players and I feel there's going to be very little challenge for the decent gamers."
- As stated above, you couldn't get hero rank or champ rank. If ANet put anything in that was *actually* challenging, it would be out of your league. Please don't act all "oh my god, what will the good players do" without being one of them - it just looks silly. Yes, people are retarded and awful at video games. Yes, it is a PvE MMO and the majority of it will be about as hard as tying your shoes in the morning. The only hope actually good players have is that explorable modes in dungeons is as hard as they're billed to be - the rest of it sounds about as hard as GW1 PvE was (aka, not hard at all).
- "The instance battles and the no physical dimension for character body means its all going to be brute force, 5.000 characters versus 5.000 characters with no tactics and strategy display needed and never matter about it not even once... "
- Are you talking about the PvE world events where players team up against 1 big bad AI monster? Yea, those will be easy - if they were hard, too many players would never get past that point in the storyline and would quit playing. If you're talking about WvW, I'm afraid it already required a fair amount of tactics to do well in beta, and the game hasn't even launched yet. A mob of 200 people mashing their faces on their keyboard would not even touch a group of 20 or 30 that knew how to accomplish specific objectives and do so without wasting time or getting into unnecessary battles on the way.
- "So far all videos I have watched are players behaving like FPS games with a gun and spamming skill 1 non-stop during the whole video...is that really all? "
- ...Yeah, that is kind of all. You get a couple more attack skills (in slots 2-5), usually with effects like knockdown, teleport, or debuffs, and a couple utility skills, but while you're waiting for those to come off CD the character just spams 1. Right now, skill depth is nothing near what it was in Guild Wars. There are no Bull's Strikes, Diversions, Dshots or Blackouts - only generic damage abilities that sometimes do something else (like apply Bleeding or whatever). This was covered in the Team Quitter review of the "10 worst things about GW2," and from what I've seen, the company has done little to give classes a more unique feel since most skills are just "mash this button when it comes off cd."
- "No monks...since when RPGs have no monks...? I don't think I need to express much about this."
- You know that "monk" in most RPGs is a cloth-wearing, weaponless melee fighter that channels Ki or Chi or whatever generic Asian-themed spiritual power to deliver supernaturally powered fist punches? If you were referring to the game lacking "healers," then I need only point you to every moba ever made ever in history, most recent single-player RPGs, and all class-based FPS games to show that games don't need 100% dedicated healers to be good. You know what the game uses in place of dedicated healers? People being smart, playing their class well, and avoiding as much damage as possible either via class abilities or simply dodging/moving out of the way of attacks. If a player does happen to take some damage, he has a long-cd healing ability that usually doesn't even top his HP off - the majority of his staying alive has to do with avoiding the damage instead of redbarring back up after it's happened. The bad players who stand in fire and eat every fireball will get crushed by even relatively easy bosses, and the good players who don't will collect their loot. This falls squarely into the "challenging content" for "decent players" thing you were barking about earlier, but when it actually happens, you seem to be turned off by it. Mayhap you would prefer a game where you can stand in fire, but instead of dying quickly, someone else can click your name and cast "Greater Heal" every 3 seconds to keep your HP up? Is that the superior healer-based gameplay you're looking for? Sounds a hell of a lot more like monkeys pressing buttons to me, but maybe I'm just uninitiated.
- "I don't think ANet has learnt from their owns mistakes at all, but spent their time making stupid costumes"
- ANet learned a lot from their mistakes. Not enough, possibly, but definitely still a lot. They learned they couldn't balance a game for shit, and they especially couldn't add new elements to a game and keep it balanced. At this point, I don't think they're even trying. They also learned that the PvE crowd is easier to please and is a lot bigger, which means cranking out more lower-quality content for more money in return. It's pretty much a win-win scenario for them. They only thing they needed to do was add in some pseudo-PvP areas (like cap points maps) to appease the "PvP crowd" and then turn their focus entirely on the PvE side. That was largely the reason they let GW1 die so early; they knew, as did the entire playerbase, that the game was built from the ground up around a competitive PvP aspect, and no matter how much they tried to morph it into a roughly PvE-shaped mass, all they ever managed to do was make an amoeba. They decided to make another game entirely, this one focused around the PvE content they decided was their new goal - and this is why I'm so baffled at your resistance against it. Most of your problems with Guild Wars (1) stem from the fact that *it is a PvP game* and will never be anything else, no matter how hard they try. They didn't put any effort into that stuff you feel so strongly about because it never mattered in the scope of the game. Because they're changing the scope and the focus, you can bet your ass they'll be working on those issues in GW2 - because a PvE MMO will fail without them. -Auron 16:52, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
(Reset indent) I appreciate that you give me your time and write 10kb to my talk page, I will make short remarks at start and develop my answers at the bottom:
- Test Krewe: There is this "Non-disclosure agreement" and nobody knows if it had an expiration date to public information. You ask me to not speak of something that I don't know. Now you tell me: How am I supposed to know about something that has not been released to the Gamers Community? Am I really ignorant?
- ANet focused goal comparison between what they wanted to do but what they ended up doing. Package, Tutorials, players experiences.
- Heroes Ascent a ghost town. It is not that for years, I had played and ubber failed at it. But I actually went there and never got a chance to play it. Which is not the same.
First thing you speak of is Ignorance. Let's see about this, when you search for Test Krewe. We get three links to Regina Buenaobra's Journal. Nobody knows anything else beyond that. You don't have to get upset with my words... why is it that nobody expanded that page providing personal comments as you did above? We don't (or didn't) have:
- Capacity, number of people involved.
- Nor their names (but you).
- How am I supposed to know your efforts, the results of the interaction with the developers themselves and how that affected the outcomes?
If at least I knew the Test Krewe members...I could go by myself to each players wiki-page if they got one and make a deep research in their talk pages and archives to try to find comments related. Ignorance is to be misinformed, which means the knowledge is somewhere there but the subject didn't bother to go look for it. Another thing is when we don't have access to that information regardless of our efforts looking into it.
- ONLY THE VALIANT CAN HOLD BACK THE NIGHT As your journey unfolds many heroes will join your party, taking you as their leader. These customizable NPCs take orders in combat and use skills and equipment of your choosing. As you travel together protecting Elona from the evil Varesh, heroes skill levels rise along with yours.
- TEAM UP WITH A FRIEND Brace the dangerous lands of Elona as you and a friend venture forth with an entire party of Heroes at your command!
- The Dervish is a scythe-wielding holy warrior whose greatest skills is the ability to evoke the power of the gods.
- The decisions you make along the way determine the path your journey takes, the missions you play, and the Heroes you meet.
- Keep all the glory in Hero vs. Hero Battles - the ultimate one-on-one PvP competition.
- No subscription fees! Buy the game. Get an Internet connection. Done.
- NIGHT IS FALLING ON ELONA Hungry for power, a corrupt ruler will stop at nothing to release her outcast god from the hellish realm in which he is imprisoned.
As death and destruction spread across the land, the people of Elona will need more than just a hero to save them...THEY WILL NEED A HERO TO LEAD THEM.
- Command intelligent NPC Heroes as you battle against the forces of darkness.
- Relish the power of 350 new skills like the Dervish's Mystic Sandstorm!
- Determine the fate of Elona through 20 engrossing story missions and hundred of quests.
- Face over 100 ferocious monsters including the mammoth Cracked Mesa.
Does this box presentation sound to you as a Player versus Player game...? If you start to count the remarks, you will notice that out of 12 lines, only one of them talks about PvP...and its about Hero Battles... not GvG...not HA... not RA...
So what are you going to say now, that I was the ignorant (misinformed)? Or maybe they lied to us, deceived us from the very beginning? And not just one guy speaking, hundreds... thousands...? We all...all...all of us got it wrong? I am not an ignorant. Arena Net sold us a game with a false presentation, cover and misleading introduction.
This Guild Wars box, was placed at the Role Play Game shelves section of the store... aligned together with all that time's RPG titles. Guild Wars if being a PvP game...why wasn't categorized along with for example: Sport simulation , Combat simulation (warfare), Shooting Games or Race Games? Any gamer knows where to look at.
When I install the game, it gives me only 4 empty character slots for a pool of 10 professions and also tells me: If you create a PvP character, you won't be able to play PvE. But if you create a PvE character, you will be able to play both those worlds. What was my decision then? I made 4 PvE characters and aimed straight to make them all PvX.
Now lets address another aspect of the game: Tutorials.
From a very generic point of view without excessively going into details:
The PvE tutorial at Churrhir Fields tells you how to:
- Click to talk, pick a weapon, attack,use skills and arrange attribute points.
- Later on at Chabek Village, you learn to add heroes, henchmen, carry items, interact with objects.
Does Guild Wars have a PvP tutorial at Great Temple of Balthazar?
- Where do you learn to weaponrize (shield sets, 40/40, high energy)? Through an ingame training or by other players...and at an end in the Wiki.
- Does Guild Wars teach you how to kite? To body block when obstructing flag runners? Where do you learn Energy Hidding? There is no such feature in Guild Wars.
A lot of people came to tell in alliance chat that Guild Wars is a PvP game, and when I asked: "What do you mean by that?"... The only repeated reply was... I heard someone else say the same thing, I'm just repeating.
My first campaign was Nightfall and I couldn't play it much after my account registration due to real life and only after its second year is when I really started to play it. My first character is a Paragon and by the time I beated my first campaign EotN was already released. This shall give you timeline of my arrival. So I hear about PvP, and compared to the vast majority of players, instead of farming to get the cosmetic goals I use all the founds I have gathered to get all the PvP weaponry before I ever start interacting with others as preparations to be ready from beforehand. Once I am ready I go to Heroes Ascent... what a surprise there is nobody there, and when I switch to International district all groups have requirements I don't meet. Of course, I had just arrived. How can I overcome this rank discrimination? I shall join a PvP alliance.
So I join a purely Japanese PvP alliance and find out that all the 10 guilds (with around 15 members each) are aligned together and are the same displayed ranked at the official website by score table. When I talk to my leader, the alliance leader, he tells me that I must wait until the others come online so we can make a team. Alright, so in the meantime I do some PvE. But then because its a PvP alliance I get to have no partners for PvE either. Great! Can I say that 50% of Guild Wars players are Americans? And that when I come back from work 18.00hs GMT+9 the vast majority of the community is having breakfast if early people? I stay in that alliance and what happens? Nothing.
Where is the PvP World of Guild Wars? The Zaishen Combat update brought several players to FA and JQ which I remember brightly because I used to live in those arenas from like a year before, by that time I already had added to my account the Factions campaign and already had developed an Assassin and a Ritualist, and these two were also geared for PvP, shield sets, 40/40, high energy and all up to 600HP. Heroes Ascent or Guild versus Guild was never as crowded as the post-Zaishen update.
And if both HA and GvG were imaginary that crowded and a player never managed to achieve at least rank 3 on the hero title...yeah you can spit on him all you want. How about you take back the part:
"Erm... you couldn't even get rank 3 hero and you want "challenges" for "decent players?" Be real. Hero rank wasn't even the one that was actually hard - it was the one everyone who PvP'd at all had by default, because HA was the casual "let's talk on vent" PvP mode for the nights when nobody was in the mood for GvG."
The truth is...HA and GvG never existed for me. PvP World of Guild Wars, never existed for me.
The game doesn't provide us activity statistics (how many GvG/HA battles per day, players involved, battle lengths) nor timeline reports (monthly, weekly news of most busy, days and hours) that can show us how players are doing. Personally, I don't know the estimated "death" date of GW1, can you tell that?
It is annoying to think of GW as a PvP exclusive since there hasn't been much improvement in that field for years that can point players to understand which orientation the product has. What was the last implementation to count? Hero Battles for Codex Arena? Everything else was in the PvE half, e.g.: Mercenaries, Beyond, 7 Heroes.
From the day I accessed HA, it is unlikely to make people feel this game is PvP oriented as there has been no substantial attention to draw players to their "intended focus" which is my opinion on why GW is mostly seen as a PvE only game.
Regarding skill updates. I made no reference for skill specific changes. In fact, I have my safeway style of gaming on I don't rely on "metas". It just annoying that a PvP World which exists in somewhat like an Urban Legend... affects my PvE gaming.
Team Quitter review of the "10 worst things about GW2". Clearly you are from United States and I am from Japan, I don't have your media in my face as you all do. Consider that before thinking if somebody lacks knowledge. To give you an idea here. There are plenty of Netcafes all around with several titles, most commonly, Lineage, Monster Hunter and Ragnarok...But never ever saw a poster of Guild Wars. Yoshida Keiji talk 11:56, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
- Uhm, isnt this a completly useless argument? GW1 failed in many ways, PvE is too easy, whatever, Anet makes it even easyer to solve the problem of noobplayers after there is noone around helping them in NM anymore without an active guild. Furthermore it is more Farming, Speedclearing, Title-Hunting than any gameplay. Even in Areas like UW where teamplay could bring a lot of fun, they are far too hard for Noobplayers including NM, but you wont find any group of players, cause everyone only play 0815-build to SC. To sum it up, while wrong skills make even NM a challenge, the right skills make even Elite-Areas to a walk in the park.
- I would say, GW1 is really a PvP-Game, theoretical PvE is only a side-effect to get not-PvP-interested players and give some fun outside of PvP. HM, Titles and Farming was later brought to the game and increased the time-amount for PvE dramatically, but you can finish the 3+EotN, the main-stuff, in low time. PvP is the really challenge, theoretical it is far more fun than any PvE. Whatever, PvP died for the majority, after Anet failed Balancing, Bot-Finding and creating a System, where a sole new PvP-Player can play PvP. To sum it up, theoretical PvP is a incredible amount of fun, but through missing balance (including the shieldset-need and other unwritten rules) and the nwebie-unfriendly system hindering any easy PvP-Start, GW1 changed from a great PvP-Game with a nice PvE-Bonus to a pure PvE-Game with a small exclusive PvP-Community.
- The biggest problem in GW1 will ever be the Teamplay-Problem, if PvE or PvP, you will have a great time with a good guild, but to be in one means playing much and active... Without a active guild, both is boring and especially PvP more or less not makeable.
- To remove the problem of weak builds, Anet reduced the ways to combinate skills and maked their power independent to stuff like Attributes in GW2. Furthermore they reduced PvP, after they couldnt Balance it in GW1. Moreover they tried to create professions different to each other and make them even, what needed a removing of a pure healing-profession.
- @Yoshida, i feel with you, although i like GW2, i miss many things i loved in GW1. After it seems like you havent played it, i will say later a few things may helping you to decide, if you like or dislike GW2.
- @Auron, you may feel attacked by the badmouthing over the testkrew, but it was obviously you, who lost his manners. If Yosihda dislike stuff in GW1, you wont change it by calling him a bad player. About GW2, i really liked the game after playing it, but before, many things about it annoyed me and most of them may are less important to me especially, but still remain in GW2. Especially the Quitter-thing, even if he had known this, what would it change about Yoshida dislikes this situation? --Naruuu 13:33, 4 August 2012 (UTC)