ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Assassin/Shadow Prison

Note: As of September 2, 2009 this page is no longer active. If you have suggestions for Guild Wars skills please go to Feedback:Main to learn how to submit suggestions that ArenaNet can use.

Armond's Discussion

As per Shard's request. -- Armond Warblade 19:54, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

In response to izzy's question. Dark prison should cause cripple instead of being a hex. It would still combo well with other assassin skills, but be easier to remove. Right now, DP and SP are essentially the same, except SP has a ridiculous snare percent. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 23:35, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Unsuspecting -> Jungle -> Trampling -> Falling Lotus -> Twisting Fangs says hi to your monk. --24.9.234.253 22:54, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

WTF!! this skill is only useful in like 1 build... the 25 rech nerf was bad enuf and nerfing the entire original build....
SP(nerft)>TS>BlS(nerft)>HoTo(nerft)>BSS(nerft)>BoS>Impale(nerft)|Expose(nerft) -- - - - - - - R.I.P
was uneccesary.... Leave Sp alone now 24.141.45.72 00:39, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

^What he said. IF anything, this skill should have 20r. Prokiller88 03:08, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

No. This is a stupid strong snare that leads to stupid strong spikes. It doesn't need a buff. -- Armond Warblade 03:13, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I find it funny that the people who defend overpowered skills are usually unregistered IPs. Sign up, login, get some merit on your name, then tell us why you like/dislike it. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 03:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I find it funny that it matters to you, honestly... -- Armond Warblade 03:36, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

It should get "Nerfed" because (a)It's an elite skill so it Should have a snare because do we want another joke elite skill like Wastrels Collapse? I don't think so. And (b) It's the only decent shadow step that's a hex so you can pull of some decent dagger combo's. And finally (c) Why "Nerf" it? It's a perfectly balanced skill because it's a long recharge skill I mean if they pull the recharge down to 10 secs then you would have to reduce the snare percentage and increase the casting time.-- Ninja Dragon 03:45, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I would rather it be useless like WC than instagib like it is now. -- Armond Warblade 03:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Ya why not screw like all the other assassin skills like the paragon?-- Ninja Dragon 03:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Call me a noob, but define instagib. Prokiller88 03:55, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Paragon is still overpowered, Ninja. Pro, instagib is something so powerful it essentially instantly kills a guy - like the SP attack chain. It's got horrible enough defense that no serious player will use it, but it's gimmicky and unbalanced enough that bad players can use it to beat good players. -- Armond Warblade 04:01, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay, the 2 wiki builds that use it (because the bad players just copy from wiki) won't finish you, I have used it and fought against it. If anything BoS should be nerfed, NOW. Prokiller88 04:05, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

But yet again Armond you are forgetting what the Assassin Class is used for It's supposed to pop in get a good dagger combo out then run away. -- Ninja Dragon 04:06, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's called instagib. And remind me how SP lets you get away? And Pro, the custom builds with SP good people use tend to abuse it :/ -- Armond Warblade 04:07, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

*Cough* It's called dash *Cough*-- Ninja Dragon 04:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, right, because you can really fit that on a SP sin. Didn't know they got nine slots now, sorry. -- Armond Warblade 04:19, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Ya you can-- Ninja Dragon 04:19, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

...No. SP sins don't get nine slots, and they have eight skills. The only variable part of their build is which four attacks they bring, and whether they take Impale or Expose Defenses. -- Armond Warblade 04:22, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh thought you meant the newer SP versions that combo got Nerfed way long ago -- Ninja Dragon 04:24, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that'd be the four attack skills, which are variable. -- Armond Warblade 04:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Too much back and forth arguing IMO. Shadow prison isn't overpowered because it snares, and it isn't overpowered because it's a shadow step. It's overpowered because it's both, and that's what the problem always will be, not matter what you do to it. The only way to make it manageable is if the duration comes down or if shadow stepping in general gets nerfed. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 05:17, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Leave this skill alone. Shadow stepping does what it was designed to do, which is teleporting to a target. Prokiller88 13:27, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Those two comments are completely unrelated. This skill is overpowered because it does both shadowstepping and snaring, not because it does one or the other. The combination of the two is what made this elite a bad idea from the start, like Ineptitude (huge damage + blind on a guy who you can pretty much guarantee to be frenzied? GG). -- Armond Warblade 18:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

My suggestion: 10/0.25/20 Elite spell. You shadow step to target foe and lose 100...200 health. For 1...10 seconds (5 hits at about 7 deadly), target foe moves 66% slower. When this hex is over, both you and the target foe gain 100...200 health. There, better?

That's a really clunky way of going about it, and still has the problem of a 66% snare and a shadowstep all in one packet. -- Armond Warblade 18:11, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The only reason people care about this skill, is because you can start a chain, and jump through walls. The snaring is not really an issue. At all. --Readem 23:36, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard anyone say, anywhere. If sins don't use this for the snare, why do they bring it? To blow away 5 extra energy and an elite slot for laughs? ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 10:59, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

You fucking fail. If Shadow Prison did nothing but be a hex (with a 6+ sec duration), people would still probably use it. --Readem 00:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Really? people would run it if it didn't snare? That's why we see so many Mark of Death sins, right? ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 00:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

O, I didn't realize MoD allowed you to shadow-step through walls. Must have missed that in the skill description. lol, ur dumb. --Readem 09:02, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

"If Shadow Prison did nothing but be a hex (with a 6+ sec duration), people would still probably use it."

Wow you say I fucking fail but you can't even remember your own argument, nor keep the context of mine. Go read a book, dumbass. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 11:44, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Dark Prison might see play if this gets hit. 50% isn't unreasonable but 3/4 cast is pretty hard a hit. --Life Infusion «T» 03:57, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

@ shard, readem is right on one point: this skill is problematic for 3 reasons: Shadowstep, sanre, and combo primer. It is teh ultra bar compression, having Deaths, cripple and a hex all in one. Another solution would be to snare the caster with some rediculous duration, like 90% or sumthing. That way, You'd need tamwork and an ally KD to get your chain going. 85.103.124.132 21:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I didn't realize readem's suggestions were so...oh get the! Those were my suggestions?!?!?! I sure am glad people know how to read. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 00:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

"Elite Hex Spell. Shadowstep to target foe, for 6 seconds target moves 33%...59%...66%." 10 1/4 20.

How about this? It shadow steps and the snare is fixed at 6 seconds, and since mosts builds that use this only puts 6 points in deadly arts anyway the snare would be pretty weak, if someone could calculate that, tell me because I have no idea. Prokiller88 02:36, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

The current meta deadly arts sin runs 15 deadly, actually... -- Armond Warblade 22:53, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, its 6 seconds vs 9 seconds. Thats a big nerf. Prokiller88 01:04, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Ten seconds, actually, and no it's not, because they don't generally survive that long anyway. -- Armond Warblade 08:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

It's a nerf towards the players who don't use it at 15. Prokiller88 22:12, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

how are people still talking about this skill, when was the last time you saw a sin insta someone?! the new in is the AoB Derv 76.26.189.65 15:31, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Veto

1. Veto changing it-- Ninja Dragon 18:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

   On what grounds?! -- Armond Warblade 18:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

   On the grounds as it's a perfectly balanced skill if you don't like it then go fly a kite :P.-- Ninja Dragon 19:01, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

   No. I'm sorry, but you're dumb. This is not "perfectly balanced", nor will it ever be, and if you had read the above discussion you would know that. (You don't even have to realize it yourself, we've spoon-fed you the reasons. :/) -- Armond Warblade 19:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

   If you can't call any skill bar that uses this build to be balanced, you need to look at shock axe, a staple of the warrior profession, the spike that it produces is very powerful, you cannot deny this.

   There are a bunch of other skill bars that are imba if you use it correctly. So why are you arguing this is overpowered rather then showing that other skills need to be buffed. Prokiller88 22:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

   Because it has a 66% snare, which is bigger than anything the warrior can get? I play shock axe a lot, but the kd from bull's and shock is nothing compared to the snare this thing has. Also, a warrior with this laughs at positioning; I need to spike something? Why waste time getting near him before the spike? -- Armond Warblade 22:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

   So just because of the 66% snare, this skill needs its duration reduced? Prokiller88 22:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

   That, or the snare needs to be weaker. Or both. -- Armond Warblade 22:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

   People will accept the 45% or 50% snare or atleast people that would use this skill. Prokiller88 22:54, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

   What people accept isn't necessarily what's balanced. Look at sins and dervs - both fanservice, both broken. -- Armond Warblade 23:18, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

   I think you forgot paragons. The spear is overpowered. Prokiller88 04:21, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

   Not really fanservice though. -- Armond Warblade 04:45, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

   The assassin does what it is described to do which is kill quickly. The dervish is a holy warrior who uses a scythe, it does what anet designed it to do. The shadowsteps, except for aod,shadow meld, recall, that stance one, leave the assassin very fragile. The Daggers them selves are very weak and without good skills, it would become the new necromancer in gvg.

   You stick very stubbonrly to "this is what they were designed to do" instead of "this is what is balanced". Neither idea is good for balance; if a guy can kill instantly, what becomes the point of using any other melee unless you're going for pressure, in which case why aren't you using the scythe that hits three people at once?

   Again, we come back to my suggestion of banning every skill from Nightfall and Eye of the North from PvP, along with professions other than the core six. Seems to me to be the only reliable way of killing off the huge power creep we've seen since then. -- Armond Warblade 22:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

   None of the assassin builds that I have seen people play kill people instantly. Don't over exaggerate it. Your suggestion of banning the 4 new professions is a horrible. Assassins are useless in pve, all guild wars players know that. The Rit's limit is to either heal or summon spirits to attack. The Dervish is balanced, or would be if melandru did have the skill activation thing. Paragons are another thing, the spear needs a nerf, not the skills, the actual weapon. If you played sins, dervs, paragons, or rits alot more you would be able to see how hard it is to play them. This skill saves time if you used dark prison you would know that it needed a buff a long time ago.Prokiller88 01:42, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

   sins, dervs, paragons, or rits

   see how hard it is to play them

   Ahahahahahahahahahahaha. --71.229.204.25 01:44, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

   Uh huh, it may seem easy but its not, playing an assassin is pretty close to playing a mesmer at least being a good assassin is. Rits are interrupt bait, the spirits are 3-5 second cast, the heals are 1 second casts and the damage skills are also 1 second casts. Dervs are also pretty hard even if their critical does 70+. The offensive paragon is easy to play, pick a target and stick to it but a support one is hard, the cast time for chants are usually 1 second or more, the main heal for the paragon is pretty weak.

2. Revert to 20second recharge User 24.141.45.72 19:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

   ....... -- Armond Warblade 19:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

   Lol Armond you just got Served! --75.73.207.233 01:15, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

   The problem is not even SP, its the attack chain that follows it... SP could be given back its 20 sec recharge, only if it had disabling the attack skills of the user for 1..3 seconds after use, similar to black out. OblivionDanny 20:49, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

   Then you'd get a warrior that - surprise! - doesn't have to worry about positioning and can hack on a target that has no way of outrunning him. Shadowsteps and snares are one of those combinations that will always teeter on being overpowered, like blind and damage once the target attacks or blind and damage, plus AoE if the target's enchanted, or damage, unblockability, and enchantment strips. -- Armond Warblade 20:57, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

   A warrior can do that now anyway, just with a 5 second recharge difference... at least with a disabling effect adrenaline will need to be rebuilt. That or change the snare to a KD instead. OblivionDanny 21:08, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

   Sorry, but what can a warrior do anyway? -- Armond Warblade 22:53, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

   To the person Who said sins arn't good in PvE I will have to disagree because My sin tanks in PvE except for mesmers (which along with ele's are really the only things that can kill me ) Sins actually own in PvE so :P -- Ninja Dragon 06:50, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Shadow Prison should be reverted to what it was on Nightfall's release. There was never anything wrong with it.222.127.223.69 00:11, 27 February 2008 (UTC)Shinde

Wrong. --Readem 00:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Heh, I liked the second reply. "Veto because it's a fine skill and if you don't like it go fly a kite." Comments like those are the reason these discussions never go anywhere. "This skill is fine because I abuse it" is not an argument. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 00:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Try veil. Or RoF. Or prot spirit. Or spirit bond. Or hex breaker. Face the sin and walk backwards. Or hell, even a fricking health regen skill. Shadow prison isn't OP.

^Agree. Any class with half a brain can survive an SP spike. People blow it out of proportion; it's not that easy to get a kill in SP's current state. If anything, it should be buffed cuz it should kill more efficiently and more often. 222.127.223.69 08:37, 27 February 2008 (UTC)Shinde

My PvP sin tends to disagree with you, I literally get kills all the time. -- Armond Warblade 08:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Are you running the hybrid signet spike or the other one? Prokiller88 22:15, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Neither, just talking out of his ass. 222.127.223.69 23:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)Shinde

The hybrid spiker is imba, but it won't kill you instantly. I play an assassin with sp as just the elite/snare because shadowy isn't elite, hell if I did use it then that build would be super imba shadowy burden with 4 skills charging and bos = auto kill. Prokiller88 13:56, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Neither the hyrid spiker nor Shadowy Burden are imba, what are you smoking? Delete your sin. 222.127.209.212 02:09, 1 March 2008 (UTC)Shinde

Hybrid spiker is imba. Shadowy isn't imba. I'm smoking whats called life. No, I will not delete my sin. I said that build would be imba if I put it on because of the armor effect but shadowy is fine as it is. Prokiller88 04:01, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

ATTENTION ALL PVE NOOBS AND PLAYERS WHO SUCK AT WARRIOR:

Shadow Prison is not balanced for the following reasons:

• It is a shadow step.
• It is a 1/4 snare.

In addition, you cannot veil it because:

• It is a 1/4 second cast and Veil is 1. You will be dead by the time it comes off.

In addition, you cannot kite it because:

• It's a snare.

In addition, you cannot Prot Spirit/Spirit Bond against it because:

• 99% of sins who run it throw lots of degen on you, and the actual attack skills almost never do more than 40 damage per hit.

"This is fine because it's the only thing I'm good at" is NOT an argument. Come up with a new one. 72.235.48.41 13:36, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

• cough* SoD/SoA/shielding hands/SoR/rc/reversal/guardian/PRE-VEIL/ I don't think you have played assassins at all, the ones used in the current meta hit 60 damage more then 4 times/melandru it/shock it/ward of melee/etc.*cough* Man that was a long one. Maybe it would be balanced if the skill team buffed other skills, but no you guys just yell nerf over and over again. Prokiller88 17:26, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow. User 72.235 must've wracked his brain to think that up. And clicked Save page with an "OH YEAH! Eat that!" In his nerdy voice. And farted in excitement. Too bad everything he said is either invalid or flat out wrong.

• It is a shadow step. - good job, you can read. but a teleport every 25 seconds (looong) is nothing
• It is a 1/4 snare. - crippling shot. crippling slash. the water ele line. all superior snares that can be done a lot more often with little to no risk.

In addition, you cannot veil it because:

• It is a 1/4 second cast and Veil is 1. You will be dead by the time it comes off. - what Prokiller88 said. although pre-veil is too advanced a concept for your feeble mind.

In addition, you cannot kite it because:

• It's a snare. - yes, that is what snares do. redundant (look it up www.thefreedictionary.com) much?

In addition, you cannot Prot Spirit/Spirit Bond against it because:

• 99% of sins who run it throw lots of degen on you, and the actual attack skills almost never do more than 40 damage per hit.

- any small prot and the spike fails. see Prokiller88's list. "lots of degen"? oh noez my life going down nerf teh degenz omg *cry*. The degen is usually just 4 from poison. Sometimes 7 from poison + bleeding. Anyone with half a brain won't die from degen before they get rid of it or heal through it with the multitude of cheap overpowered spammable monk skills no one ever cries for nerfs about.

P.S. Elite skills were supposed to be good, last I heard. 222.127.223.69 21:18, 1 March 2008 (UTC)Shinde

Ye, a-net should have left signet of might as it was, it sucks now. There's a difference between being good, and being OP. Lord of all tyria 21:33, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Shadow Prison is underpowered for an elite skill. 222.127.223.69 01:05, 2 March 2008 (UTC)Shinde

Lets just all agree to revert the recharge back to 20 or reducing the snare to 50% or not touch it at all. Prokiller88 14:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

If shadow prison is underpowered, why do so many people in HB use it? Its hard to call the top 10 there bad. Lord of all tyria 16:00, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

And user 222 doesn't know what satire is, nor does he realize that shadow stepping is broken no matter what the recharge is. As I've already said, "This build is fine because I suck at everything else" is not an argument. Get a new one. Kiting and positioning are crucial parts of thegame. This skill ignores both. 72.235.48.41 16:10, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Lol you can shove your silly "argument" cuz I stated all of mine when I demolished your post. 222.127.223.69 21:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)Shinde

The hybrid spiker is not fine. Shadow Stepping is not overpowered, please stop saying that, you know what is overpowered? disrupting chop (it needs the 1sec activation just like agonizing and critical), executioners with evis, those ele snares that do more then 66%, magebane, chilling victory, I could go on, but then I would be flamed for being a "noob" Prokiller88 20:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

First: Shadow Prison is not used for the snare, that is just an extra bonus. The real power of this skill comes from the fact that it primes Black Lotus and it gives you a cheap shadow step. This is what Readem already said, but apparently no one understood this...

Second: Pre-prot fails because of HotO and the fact that Impale AND Twisting Fangs both deal DW. The packages of damage are small enough to get through Protective Bond, and the Combo does enough damage to kill a 600 HP character.Mr.Hobo 20:58, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Ever heard of guardian? shield of absorption? shielding hands? Those are some pre-prots that are effective no matter how small the damage packets are. And you have to work on your addition skills cuz it is nowhere near 600. 222.127.223.69 23:42, 4 March 2008 (UTC)Shinde

Just to ask you guys who are saying "the build using sp does over 600 damage" What is this all powerful build? Last time I checked, it did 460-500. Prokiller88 01:48, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Idoticity meter is reading a 78.09% positive. First off, Mr. Hobo is right - one of the problems with this skill is that it is a snare, a primer, AND a SS. Last I herd, 3-skill bar compression was baed. Second, to all the people who argue here, stop trying to use the "I can defend against it so it is not OP" argument. Third, Armond, start using the "This skill brakes splits" argument. Fourth, Mr. Hobo, use the "Horns of the ox stops me from preproting, teleporting stops me from using preprots" argument. Fifth, the suer who just ignored positioning and kiting really needs to go tell that to readem so he can tell him/her to uninstall. Sixth, all those who ignore the "Shadow Steps are Op, no matter what the recharge" need to play some sort of serious GvG, and get buttraped at VoD becasue of a super sin split. File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg nuke7 File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg 12:52, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Only sin build you see nowdays is Scythe sin, and that one lost its unblockability recently with the Fox's Promise nerf. As for SP, I really don't see way to improve this skill without making it a bit imbalanced. 200.94.163.166 04:17, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The question here is to nerf it. SP will still be broken, only dagger attacks suck atm File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg nuke7 File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg 21:04, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

You know what... finish this off. Do something drastic so it's never seen again, and fix the rest of the sin class. We were designed as glass cannons, and as of now, we're essentially glass waterguns. The only current viable builds in pvp either use another class' primary weapon, or they are pressure builds (SA). Our purpose was to take out major targets, then have downtime. Leave the downtime in spikes, but let us spike. If that means shadow prison has to die, then so be it. -Kalas Silvern 08:59, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

You're right on top of things, kalas. killing it is about the only solution here - I'm also okay with 45 recharge. Because when dagger attacks are buffed (and they should be, apart from SA they all suck) this is gonna fuck up stuff again. Killing it - is teh only option. -- nuke7 File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg 11:18, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Lilondra's Issue

Pls discuss.While only snaring for half the % it can be used both offensivly as defensivly (in ra for example),Also you can keep it as primer for black spider AND use it with trampling wich is a buff imo.Anybody with a increase movement speed or a shadowstep (like return or like storm djinn's haste) can run away.Lilondra 12:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

That's even more broken, lil. The "cripples every sec" really hurts like hell. Now this skill has 5 skill compressed into one: Hex, snare, cripple, Shadow step, Defensive snare. Holeee sheeet! It's a little too powerful. I appreciate your intent, but.. no. this is even more broken than before: SP > black spider > trampling Ox > Falling Lotus > Blades of Steel > Impale. That's the original SP chain, only with a KD. YAY dead. -- nuke7 File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg 11:22, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The original sp chain had a kd,besides crippling the assassin (or snaring it in any way) will already kill his chain.Imo the sp chain should be brought back to life.Just because noobs dont get that 1 block 1 miss or a few secs delay kill there spike.Lilondra 17:19, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

"Imo the sp chain should be brought back to life". Okay, I'm not going to argue with you. This is just.. wrong. NUKLEAR IIV 20:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

why ? because it was able to do what a sin should do >< ow i get it a sin using a scythe is much better in your opinion.Its should be brought back to life at the cost of it being easier to counter. If its easier to counter (for example a fast cast guardian skill (no not buff guardian another skill) it isnt broken anymore.Sp sin was broken yes because of the fact that it could gank to fast and that 90 % of the gw population sucks so everything that ownz them (and they cant play bcause they are to dumb) is bad for the game.Lilondra 15:37, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

"why ? because it was able to do what a sin should do >< ow i get it a sin using a scythe is much better in your opinion.Its should be brought back to life at the cost of it being easier to counter." I'm just going to say this once: Sins are fanservice, and they, and what they are "supposed to do" was broken from the start. NUKLEAR IIV 21:58, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

+1 for truth. --71.229.204.25 22:05, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Did i ever say they werent fanservice ? So you just wanna kill them instead of trying to balanced them.I can tell you that sins are just not worth using these days because they need to be able to bar compress to get ss,snare,ias,chain,(ress),(antiblock).Furthermore i actually never used the sp sin for more then an hour but the nerf ruined my other favorite builds (using aod,beguiling). The point is that sins are very fragile as well when they attack as when they have to run.You say they are broken but thats like in ra and in hb only imo.Because heroes are noob most of the time (there arent many builds they can play decent) and thus both arenas are noobparadise.In gvg you can :Snare,kill,not overextend,go back,countergank,etc.I realise there ganking capabilities are a bit to effective but that doesnt make them OMFG they score a kill every time in gvg or ha.Neither in TA. In ta you will run a magebane,some kind of snare or atleast interrupt(ow btw you have a monk) so a general sp sin is +- worthless there magebane on 1 skill,d-shot on another and his off.Preveil and spike is gone.ETC...Lilondra 04:51, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

"You say they are broken but thats like in ra and in hb only imo". Ever fought against sinsplit, mate? "I realise there ganking capabilities are a bit to effective but that doesnt make them OMFG they score a kill every time in gvg". Ever fought against sinsplit, mate? "Preveil and spike is gone". Ever fought against sinsplit, mate? NUKLEAR IIV 11:48, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I herd having base defend was good ;).Furthermore i Said they should only bring it back to life if they buffed defense against it.Lilondra 18:05, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

"I herd having base defend was good ;)". That basically shows you have no idea what you are talking about. Please ignore me, I won't stir up another flame war here. NUKLEAR IIV 23:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I think to mle its quite obvious that if you face a split you have 2 options : Split yourself (most of the time) or try to push trough and get to there gl first (rare but sometimes works).Lilondra 10:54, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I actually agree that the shadow prison CHAIN wasn't the problem, it was shadow prison itself. Nerf it more, and fix dagger attacks- that way, sins get what they want (the ability to kill something without using a scythe), and the people who want them nerfed get what they want (no shadowstep hex snare). --Kalas Silvern 08:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

No. The chain was broken too. No character should be able to score a kill alone in 4 seconds. Period. NUKLEAR IIV 09:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

thats like saying no one should be able to fully heal anyone in 4 secs, and we should all bring self heals. each profession has their own quality, warriors tank, mesmer punishes you for your actions, paragon supports, and sins kill fast. whats wrong with a sin that can kill within 4 secs, if you say that imbalanced, than balanced yourself, there are ways to counter a sin you know, so leave this profession alone. Metal Sazz 11:12 april 22, 2008 (UTC)

"thats like saying no one should be able to fully heal anyone in 4 secs, and we should all bring self heals." Lern2read, pls. where did I say that? "whats wrong with a sin that can kill within 4 secs, if you say that imbalanced, than balanced yourself, there are ways to counter a sin you know, so leave this profession alone." I'm guessing you missed the parts about sins being fanservice and all taht jazz, and the tiny bit about "Teleport in, and spike his little heart out" idea was broken from the start, huh? NUKLEAR IIV 15:47, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

No character should be able to score a kill alone in 4 seconds. thank you i can read. "Teleport in, and spike his little heart out" I say again.....whats wrong with that? you keep saying its broken, but really you just don't know how to deal with it, many of times when i'm monking in pvp and a sin think he can take me out, im able to hold out longer then his spikes, Lots more times with my sin i go after a monk and it doesn't work out the way i want. hell we are taken out more often then monks, we have to have skills that can kill in 4 sec cause it's not like we'll last that long.Metal Sazz 16:23 april 22, 2008 (UTC)

Yes it is because its more usefull at a secundary sin then on a primary ><.The sp sin should be brought back to life in return they should put more skill in it . (more def against it). You know as well as i do that you just interrupt his chain,use a shadowstep yourself,use mending touch,use a block or miss attack,blind,preveil,hex removal or anything that stops 1 attack from the chain will completely destroy the sin for atleast 25 seconds.Lilondra 17:11, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

@ metal sazz, that idea promotes gank oriented play, which, in turn, promotes shit like sinsplit. Please at least know the problem before insulting my intelligence or my ability to play the game. The scenario you gave has nothing to do with real life. In a real life situation, a smart sin won't go against a monk. The whole "I can deal with it" argument really won't get you anywhere.

@ Lil, yeah, that's the first thing about shadow steps that need fixing. The other bit is adding some sort of risk for a sin who is shadowsteping - to discourage sin ganking. The combo system needs to be fixed somehow so that going 2-3-4-5 doesn't work. I have no idea how, though. NUKLEAR IIV 22:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

acually yeah a smart sin would find out what the biggest threat is atm and take it out first, which is usually the person who can keeping other threats alive. (monks just an example im using,) i know that not always the case either, but it is for most of any battle i've been in. and isn't what Lil said on how to inturrupt a chain a form of fixing it. does alot more then just complaining on a website if you ask me. Metal Sazz 1:26, 22 april 2008 (UTC)

"actually yeah a smart sin would find out what the biggest threat is atm and take it out first, which is usually the person who can keeping other threats alive." no. that's not how it works. Please lern2play. I will provide reasoning later. -- NUKLEAR IIV 19:42, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

i know how to play thank you, anyone will tell you that taking out the healer is one of the first things you do while going into a group, and if you don't believe me, go to any RA,TA, AB, or CM match as a healer and tell me you wouldn't be one of the first ones they target, or will be once they know who you are, cause i know i have, and what a surprise, they target me. You can ask any monk or Rit that question too and they'll tell you the same thing, you might say thats not how it work...but thats how it is, and i would ask you to not insult my ability to play, if you going to ask me to do that same.

anyways back to the topic at hand. if your the victim of "Overpowered" sin build, it's not like your not going to get help, Mesmer, air and water Eles, interrupting ranger able to shutdown a sin, and they are able to do it before he starts his spike if not during. and in gvg the monks got at least got one if not two other monks to back them up.

What dark prison does ain't exactly balanced, but the absence of 66% makes it okay. I just want SP to somehow be left4dead - just up recharge to an obscene level and be done with it. -- NUKLEAR IIV 22:35, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

And to your "Sins are fanservice" comment, is it wrong for anet to create something that people would enjoy, something new for people to try and keep on playing cause of it, honestly if Faction, NF, and EOTN didn't come out and we only had proph, how many people would still be playing to this date. There nothing wrong with change and there's nothing wrong with the concept of a sin or any new profession. Metal Sazz 00:20 April 24, 2008 (UTC)

Any type of split will kill those npcs, for one simple reason they are NPCS or as I would like to call them, Pve monsters that do predetermined things. They use pin down to cripple you, powershot to do damage and troll to heal. Any offensive profession can kill that. I played in a gvg and used an assassin as a frontliner and it worked.. or would have if we didn't have 4 heroes. If you have played gvg you would know that the monks would use SoD/Guardian when they see a spike and since exposed is out of the picture. So there is a good reason to bring back the O-D-O-D assassin bar compression. Unless all of you guys like to be hit with +106 and +200 armor ignoring damage. Prokiller88 14:44, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Alright, I see the problem with reviving the combo and ganking, but it is true that anyone could kill those npcs- they don't exactly put up much of a fight, except in large numbers. If you're worried about the fact that it only takes four seconds, you could make it so all sin attacks have an activation time, and make it so IASes don't affect them. Now, this would be a buff for those who don't use IASes, but a nerf for those who do, since they'd have to deal with a slight aftercast? Not sure how that could be implemented, but it would seem to solve your 4 second complaint if done right, and it keeps assassins happy since they can kill things again. --Kalas Silvern 06:54, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Would it kill anyone to buff this back to 20r. Prokiller88 00:44, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm all for buffıng sin combos. Just.. not the SP one, which was free, which did 600ish damage, and could be redone in 20 secs. Oh, and Pro, yeah, this skill is borderline OP atm, but when sin combos get buffed, this WILL become annoying. This needs to die first so that daggers can live again. -- NUKLEAR IIV 20:11, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

That is true and of course izzy could just drop this to 33% at 20r. Then it wouldn't overshadow dark prison too much. Prokiller88 23:40, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

When did the SP combo do 600 damage? I've always seen 480-500ish as the magic number, maybe I was forgetting a skill? BSS-->Twisting-->BLS-->BoS did about 450 damage, including DW and all 6 hits criticaling, and having 14 crit strikes and 13 dagger mastery (note- degen was not counted, since you get about 1-2 seconds of it). If using BSS-->HoTO-->Falling Spider-->BoS--> Impale with 14 dagger, 13 crit, and 4 deadly, it comes out to about 472 damage, + poison, bleed, and 45 earth damage from impale (reduced by armor). Even with vampiric, you're still below 600 (and that's again assuming it's max damage where all 6 hits critical). I'll admit that that is a far more powerful combo, but when I say un-nerf it, I mean put it back to something reasonable, not something insane. And the higher damage one was not free, though with falling lotus it is closer. One problem here is that people overexagerate the damage- it does a lot, but not nearly as much as people around here make it sound like. --Kalas Silvern 05:09, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

You can kill shadowprison or just Buff active defense and lower the synergy (you know the black X skills can be changed to Golden or Trampling ...) So that shadow prison does not have an effect that is so great to chain and for bar compression.Lilondra 11:12, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Its a slippery slope to buff counters against broken skills, lil. Pro, I'd be much more happier if this was 5e with 35 recharge. -- NUKLEAR IIV 11:44, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

It would still be used, and shadow prison is pretty borderline now. Prokiller88 22:22, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

If people have a way to defend themselves against melee attacks it wouldnt be unbalanced.Anyway another way of indirecly nerfing sp is removing part of the synergy transfering part of the black skills to golden and some golden to black.Thus resulting in a much higher req wich results in less bar compression.Lilondra 13:18, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

We do have means to defend ourselves. But SP ignores them all. And yeah, that would be one way to go about it, as izzy did so in the past, but with two flaws: 1) You essentially brake a chain cause of an abusive elite 2) didn't you want to bring the old chain back? :P -- NUKLEAR IIV 20:19, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Ah. So, would getting the chain back WITHOUT expose defenses be ok? I thought you just meant the dagger skills, since it takes expose to go through block. --Kalas Silvern 22:02, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Sp does not ignore blocking and doesnt ignore healing either ;).Expose defenses is like a huge warning sign on who he is going to spike and hex breaker can completely destroy the build easely. Imo bringing it to aod would make the chain hurt less (you dont have so much of a snare!) and you can still play it.Lilondra 06:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

The old chain involved expose- I think Nuclear was referring to the whole thing. Shadow Prison snares (kiting gone), Expose removed the ability to block, HoTO removed the ability to Heal during it (KD), so pre-blind was about the only solution, since it executed so fast. With expose gone, you could use a block skill or even better, a block stance, since if I remember right, stances can be activated while KDed (not sure on that, I seem to remember doing that at some point). --Kalas Silvern 06:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

It also, you'know, kills prot? and expose defenses are still rly good. Sp does not ignore blocking and doesnt ignore healing either ;).Expose defenses is like a huge warning sign on who he is going to spike and hex breaker can completely destroy the build easely. o I c wut u did ther. ı should bring 1 skill to counter a specific build, amirite? -- NUKLEAR IIV 09:18, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Not sure how it kills prot (last I heard, it took someone else to carry ench removal?) And most people carry a block skill of some kind, and many monks already carry a block stance in areas where sins are common. Oh no, it would require a slight meta shift, what will we do ;). Not sure how it ignores prot other than being fast, please do enlighten me how the sin alone does that. Now, if you're talking about his teammates helping him, well, that's another story entirely, since the same could be said of wars, dervs, or any other form of damage. And I tend to agree with you, just not entirely on this point (I don't want full revival of that combo, only partial- BLS can rot in hell for all I care, I want Trampling Ox, HoTO, Impale, and BSS back to how they were- trampling could lose a little damage though, +38 was slight overkill- +34 or +30 maybe). --Kalas Silvern 09:35, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I should've said preprot. -- NUKLEAR IIV 12:02, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Alright, that makes more sense. My idea of not allowing IAS to work on sin combos has merit in making it protable (can't happen in 3 seconds anymore). --Kalas Silvern 17:31, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

all you people wanting skill to die off makes me cry.....(mind you i don't really care about BLS or SP, or any skill that were part of a common sin build, never found my self using it,) i just think it would be better to have skill nerf to a point to where they arn't as big as a threat as they were before, but still can find use. like the SoS nerf, yeah sure the duration was a bit rough, but what was the point of nerfing it to 3 sec on high atts, you might think iam just a whining sin, but it wouldn't be that bad to nerf a skill to a point where they still have use, but arn't as annoying as they were, that would be better for this game i think Metal Sazz19:21 1 may 2008

Honestly, I'd normally agree with you. However, when one skill is making it impossible to balance a class for fear of it, that skill needs to die a horrible death. Don't think of it as killing a skill, think of it as sacrificing one skill to save our entire profession. --Kalas Silvern 22:53, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

yeah i guess....still not happy with it tho lol....also i don't think your IAS nerf for sin is a good idea, basically cause i use a increase IAS build for my sin/ranger, does well for a pressure build, and it would just be a rape for me,...and all other ias sins lol--Metal Sazz 01:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

My idea would be to remove IAS, but give every attack an activation time, depending on the attack. That way, sins still get fairly quick combos, but there's no fear of an un-reactable, 3-second death combo. --Kalas Silvern 05:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

"Honestly, I'd normally agree with you. However, when one skill is making it impossible to balance a class for fear of it, that skill needs to die a horrible death" No srsly. How many times have we said this? QFT. Oh, and Kalas, the Sp chain took 4 seconds to get of, 5 seconds to finish. just so I'd throw it out there. -- NUKLEAR IIV 11:16, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah, thanks. For some reason, I see people say 3 seconds all the time. Maybe it was the time to a KD in the HoTO version? Sorry for the confusion, un-reactable 4-5 second combo then :) --Kalas Silvern 17:21, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

@nuklear NO,you should always be on vent when playing decent pvp and if you dont have a counter to that build standard then you must suck A LOT. As All team builds have block,heal,prot and most have hex removal,Anti-kd,... So its not about picking counters to that build in particular its about having the counters in youre build always !.Lilondra 14:02, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I had read that like 4 times to understand it, but I'll bite: Name me the counters that your usual team brings, and I'll show you why that approach doesn't work (If it did, PnH wouldn't have ran a 3 sin frontline for weeks till SP chain was nerfed) -- NUKLEAR IIV 20:54, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention that you have about half a second to throw up any sort of defense before it's too late. You miss anything in that half second, the guy's dead. -- Armond Warblade 00:41, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

"As all teams have block,dehex,heal,..." I named them,Wasnt the chain 4 seconds ? If you use expose isnt it even more clear ? Isnt spiking with some good frontlines as effective as the old sp sin ? Btw I dont want to see the exact same combo and not for sp anyway i just want to see O-D-O-D again but then with aod,beguiling etc ... Lessen the synergy with dagger attacks and make it sin only and it will already be a very hard nerf imo.Lilondra 08:09, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

/sarcasm Yeah, we can rely on blocking skills like guardian when the SP sin shreds our base. Ohh, I know, we should send a MONK back! And hex removal is blast too, I mean, it certainly is beneficial to remove a 5 second hex, esp with 1 sec cast removals. And don't get me started of healing, all flag runners have awesome anti spike prots, you'know? /sarcasm

Lil, please play against some sort of sinsplit and then come back. Please. I ask this, not only for myself, but your own dignity. -- NUKLEAR IIV 09:05, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Ofcourse cause I was talking about a gank amirite ? And because other builds cant gank either amirite ? Lilondra 10:12, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Stop making false claims lil. Show me a single other build that can gank just as effectively, just as powerful, and just as invulnerable as any gank oriented sin build, and I'll withdraw all my arguments. Go ahead. I dare you. Find me a better ganker than an AoD or SP sin. (Cripshot, btw, doesn't count as it actually requires some skill to use) -- NUKLEAR IIV 15:38, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I know one. Technically it uses death's charge but oh well right?. W/A RoTN, Sever, Gash, Sun and Moon, Frenzy, Rush, Death's charge, optional. 14 sword, 13 str, 3 shadow arts. Use RoTN before battle to charge adrel skills and wait for it to end. Deaths charge and spike once, use RoTN again and spike again. Prokiller88 22:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

And that is better than the SP or AoD, how, exactly? AoD is invincible. SP kills everything, instantly (notice the use of hyperbole to get the point across.). -- NUKLEAR IIV 16:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The thing that makes sp OP is the barcompression,the extreme synergy you get with other skills,... If sp Dropped some of its strenght and 5 seconds worth of recharge + if other skills didnt synergy this much with it the O-D-O-D could be restored.Doing this at the sacrifice of  : Snare Bar compression Requirements (enchantment AND hex,...)81.82.228.15 15:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

If the snare was reduced it would be still effective, and AoD is not invincible, your subjected to enchantment removal. SP does not kill everything, it does not offer anti-block, or anti blind.(Notice I'm talking about human chars and not stupid npcs) Prokiller88 00:48, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay.. Pro.. two points:

1)AoD is not invincible

This is wrong. I shall demostrate with a picture:

First, lets assume this is you:

YOU

Then, we get an AoD sin:

AOD

The AOD goes balls deep into your base, ripping your npcs.

NPCs - rape - AOD

Then, you get back to defend your base, logically.

NPCS - raped - AOD ------------<[-YOU

You get back to your npcs, and hit AOD with an enchant removal:

AOD - Remove - YOU

Result:

YOU -----------------------------TELEPORT!--------------------------------------AOD

AOD is a radar away. so, good luck and have fun trying to kill that.

2)Notice I'm talking about human chars and not stupid npcs Lilondra has the same mantra. Please, please, go play against renoway, or some sort of sinsplit, if you can find one. Better yet, OBS. Then, and only then, can you say "npcs dont matter". -- NUKLEAR IIV 18:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

NPC's matter. Give them extremely fast ench removal/hex removal that does no damage. Have them buff mirror of disenchantment to 1/2 second cast and give it to npcs- no attribute changes required, would destroy AoD and if the players were stupid ruin even a multi sin split. Then give them some quick Hex removal, not sure what there. Hurts blockwebs (and hurts aegis, which the Dev team seems to like doing >_> ), the hex thing would help against massive hex stack (which have been a complaint before), and as said above, hurts single sin splits. --Kalas Silvern 23:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

It also kills prots, attunements, legit and skill requiring mesmer hexes like diversion and shame, and hurts pretty much all caster classes. Why do you want to do that? we are talking about 10ish copies of MoD, so that ain't exactly a little number, too. -- NUKLEAR IIV 14:34, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I never said it was the perfect solution- however, I was using that as an example of a method of giving them defense against enchants. Make a skill that only removes assassin enchants and hexes to prevent that, but don't just destroy an entire skill type due to abuse one or two areas. Sins are meant to be mobile- find a way to let them keep their mobility without it being broken. --Kalas Silvern 06:33, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Didnt i say give the npcs some sort of defense ? arent you pretty much always sending youre flag or ranger back ? so or you lose NO npcs or youre ranger waits there and prevents the sin from ganking :/Lilondra 18:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

"Didnt i say give the npcs some sort of defense" Lil, I'm tired of saying this: GO PLAY AGAINST A GUILD SPLITTING USING SINS. GET BUTTRAPED. THEN, COME BACK AND ARGUE. Please, do this only for your own dignity. -- NUKLEAR IIV 19:36, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Ahh.. nuklear.. there you go again with NPCs, Im talking about HUMAN players, anyone with half a brain could kill NPCs. The only reason this is so powerful is because guild npcs, 1. There is no monk guild npc. 2. They should rename GvG into, "killing the other guild's npcs". I like tactical stuff as much as the next guy who plays chess but you have control over the king, while the guild lord is a like a henchmen. Maybe they should change GvG so that your guild leader is the one the opposing side has to kill. Prokiller88 01:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Ow right so then you have to play with youre guildleader and hope they dont randomly spike youre guildleader :p i hope that was sarcasm. and nuclear is right about the npcs but you should put defense there anyway ! besides there will always be this gay and i said ALSO BUFF THE NPCS wich = no more sinrape = your argument phailing here.Lilondra 16:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

"Im talking about HUMAN players, anyone with half a brain could kill NPCs." Okay, Prokiller, you know about ganking, right? You know that, when you get a sin ganking you, you send a guy back, but anything short of a monk and a cripshot ranger can't deal with a single sin? You know that killing NPCs with breakneck speed can make or break games? Obviously, you don't. Please, go get ganked one day. "and nuclear is right about the npcs but you should put defense there anyway" "ALSO BUFF THE NPCS wich = no more sinrape = your argument phailing here" First of, read the page titles Victory or Death. Second, go get ganked. You HAVE NO IDEA HOW IT WORKS, AND YET YOU KEEP ARGUING HERE, stating false facts and, to be frank, idiotic ideas. Frankly, I shall no longer argue with you, lil. You have idea how sins gank. none. zip. nil. I will preserve my sanity, and not argue with you. Go, have fun and gg. I'll read a good book and ignore whatever you say, only to avoid NPA that may come from my keyboard. -- NUKLEAR IIV 17:24, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I understand how important the bodyguard, the 2 knights and the archers are. I understand what you mean about the npcs and why this skill should be nerfed.. against a bot. The only reason why everyone is saying nerf nerf nerf is because of VoD/ViO. There is only one reason why you can't gank the guild lord before 15 mins is because of the amulet he is wearing. I don't see why pvp should even involve npcs, because pvp implies player vs. player. But no, in hb, ha, gvg, and ab to some extent it requires you to protect or use npcs, so lets just change their names or not put them under pvp. Prokiller88 21:51, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

At nuclear start reading my posts i am aware of the state of singanks now but you CAN do something about it.Further prokiller npcs are important at vod so all are important and if you can save all you want to save all (most of the time impossible).Ans yes i know wat sins do at vod and voi but at the stand it is no longer ganking without being able to do anything about it.Then npcs are being farmed anyway.Lilondra 04:53, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Epic wall of epic text. Gogo Nuclear, you actually know what you're talking about. -- Armond Warblade 03:05, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

TBH he does he doesnt always read the comments of others but atleast what he says is true sinsplit rapes but that can be fixed im only for brining o-d-o-d back at certain sacrifice.And he forgets the last point.Lilondra 16:45, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Man, this page needs to be archived. I want o-d-o-d back too even if this skill gets nerfed. But it needs to not get such a big overkill such as ether renewal or horns or exposed. Prokiller88 03:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that this skill is the reason for the o-d-o-d nerfs. Therefore, it has to die before they can buff sins due to the fact that the GvG community (the only one that anet considers important) hates them, and giving sins o-d-o-d back without killing this will just end up causing more nerfs to o-d-o-d. I hate to say it, but this is one skill that needs to be killed completely. They can reword it to balance later. --Kalas Silvern 03:59, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Wait, why do we want o-d-o-d back again? It's gimmick that sacrifices utility for damage. Back in my day, a sin brought l-o-d and his elite, and packed the rest of his bar with utility (and usually a second way to start his chain). Back then, it was acceptable for a sin to not be able to spike a guy from full health to dead - sins were used properly, for support and minor spikes. Now all they do is abuse shadow stepping to be invincible and abuse chains to instantly kill whatever's the most annoying thing on the field besides themselves. -- Armond Warblade 06:02, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Then can we have our pressure and utility back? And I'd be glad to hear these L-O-D combos you've mentioned, I'll fully admit that I started after those were long gone. And if you've been paying attention to other debates, I'm all for versatility and pressure. Oh, and did these combos have anything over war combos? Just curious, since from everything I've gathered, sins have never been able to pressure, or do anything better than a war other than spike. Please, enlighten me with your great wisdom. I clearly don't have any idea about balance, especially since my aim is to make sins capable of fixing the rampant imbalances of low level pvp caused by the devs balancing the game around a game mode based almost entirely on stalling for 18 minutes while trying to farm an npc or two. --Kalas Silvern 10:11, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't bother to argue here, armond. There are people I rather not name with whom having an argument is like shouting at the wall. -- NUKLEAR IIV 13:35, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Utility wins. Just saying.

Shock is the best utility skill you're going to find on a melee character, hands down - interrupts at will, anti-kiting, and, in this case, a chain starter. That bar also has the capability to survive once shit stats hitting the fan, two different types of knockdown, a chain that's excellent support on a spike (pretty sure it'll kill anyone the rest of the team can take down to half health), two different modes of GTFO, and healing. It can't run up solo and kill any random player or NPC, no, but it also doesn't die the instant something looks at it. Two of them can knocklock a guy for eight seconds, dealing damage all the while, and together can kill off any NPC you can name short the Lord and, with skill, any player that strays too far from his monks. -- Armond Warblade 16:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for repeating why that bar is broken. I guess they missed that point about... the 4th time I've said that. -- NUKLEAR IIV 18:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Meant that towards Kalin, actually. And I wouldn't argue that that bar is broken, just that AoD (which is, guess what, shadowstepping) is overpowered. -- Armond Warblade 19:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

First, it's Kalas- if you intend to point out that I'm stupid, at least get my name right. I agree, that's a good build, which does what a sin should be able to do. It isn't that L-O-D you referenced earlier though, I'd still like to see that. I've also argued that if you're worried about ganking, give npcs enchant removal of some kind (make it very fast so it goes off before the first KD- or you could give them a monster skill similar to hex breaker for enchants, except it removes an enchant from the attacker) and you can say goodbye to that worry. The problem is, sins were meant to be mobile- take away that mobility, and you've got a warrior that can't do damage by autoattacking, and who has less armor. As far as kill combos, I'm NOT arguing to bring back instagibing. I'd just like more viable combos so that we can see some variety, without them being overpowered. Hence my desire to see more skills viable for pressure (since we can't pressure without attack skills) and the spike skills (HoTO, Trampling, etc) give SOME of their power back- I'm not stupid enough to say things were balanced before. And once again, about shadowstepping- some penalty is in order, but destroying the skill type is not the solution. Finally, improving sin power helps in areas other than GvG- most specifically, unorganized pvp, where healers aren't guaranteed. It makes it so luck of the draw is less important in those situations, and so that a team has a chance to win despite a monk if they are good. As it is, a random team can probably be held off by a single monk if they weren't lucky enough to get an interrupt character. And yes, utility wins. I never said otherwise. --Kalas Silvern 03:15, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

My apologies - Kalin was the handle of a friend of mine from a while ago.

You're right, it's not L-O-D, but it's not O-D-O-D, and it's not a gimmick that loses utility for damage (which was more of my point than "L-O-D > O-D-O-D"). I was confused, plain and simple.

I'm not really worried about ganking, just that Aura of Displacement is overpowered. (I'd make a page for it, but frankly, I just don't care enough at this point.) Assassins - obviously - were designed for ganking. Now if they can do that without also being broken towards other players or invincible enough that skill-less players can gank without fear of retaliation because they can disappear away at will...

I'm fine with assassins being mobile. I'm not fine with them being this mobile. Shadowstepping should be an annoyance at best, not the invincibility that it is now. (As an example, I'd be fine with AoD if it had a maximum duration of 10 seconds and a recharge of 40 seconds.)

Frankly, destroying shadowstepping altogether is a better fix, at this point, than leaving it as it is until Izzy finally figures out how to balance it (which, honestly, I doubt is possible).

Your example of unorganized PvP assumes that people are bringing assassins, however. It's also just that - unorganized. You're not supposed to be able to predict what you get, or whether your team will be able to beat a team with a monk despite the fact that your team is more skilled. I agree, it'd be nice if skilled teams beat skill-less teams everywhere, but Random Arenas is never going to have that - not least because the most skilled players don't go there.

Glad we agree, then.

-- Armond Warblade 15:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Alright, now I can actually try to address issues. And I wish sins had more utility, as is... well, we can't do both utility and damage (in most cases- AoD and SA are really the only exceptions I know of). It'd be nice if we could fit both onto a non-AoD non-SA bar. I'd also like to see L-O-D viable, so if you have any ideas for making it... well, better, I'd really like to hear them. I have to ask though, am I the only one who'd like to see a harassment sin? Say, a short recharge shadowstep that somehow forces a L-O-D combo, so that sins get a nice pressure ability (since we have very little), and make sure that you can't continue past that L-O-D combo to prevent crazy shadowstep spikes every few seconds? Not sure, just throwing the idea of a harassment sin out there. As for AoD, I'd like to suggest making AoD a stance, like shadow walk. It precludes use of an IAS (no gay 3 sec spikes), and at the same time leaves them mobile- you can add a duration to it of 20-30 seconds, which would balance get rid of the maintainable warp, which I admit is OP in GvG. Not sure if it's the solution you'd like, but it would be a nice compromise, and since you're often canceling quickly in lower end pvp, it wouldn't affect it much there. Glad to clear the air, and let's hope Izzy CAN balance shadowsteps instead of killing them- for once, let's hope for a good solution. --Kalas Silvern 19:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Silvern, skill balanced has always been kill it then balance it a few months later when no one cares about it anymore. Prokiller88 23:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, I can hope. And there have been balances that didn't completely kill a skill. Mystic and Eremites to 1 sec is an example, as is the nerfs to guardian and Aegis- still good, just not insane. --Kalas Silvern 06:23, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

NOT OP

Anyone with a bit of skill or half a brain will take AoD instead, since it's better at ganking. 25 recharge shadowstep still sucks. Also, anyone with a little bit of speed behind them can slap on a prot before being hit by HotO. Also, disciplined stance, shield bash, guardian, ward melee, aegis... The list goes on. Use them. Owut 15:47, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Or no, because there are so many unskilled players and SP is geared towards them, letting them kill skilled players with ease. -- Armond Warblade 16:03, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Or skilled players should use blocks and blinds effectively. And on the split note, this is less imba than AoD still. SP probably won't end up being nerfed again. Owut 16:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Armond's suggestion is actually good though, lower recharge, increase cast time, increase energy cost perhaps, decrease debuff and decrease duration... That would work. Owut 16:16, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Last I checked, sins were immune to blind. That leaves block, which any decent team will ignore. That leaves miss chances, which means your team stacks up on hex removal. Honestly, it's not hard for a team to focus on SP spikes, if they've not enough skill to do anything else. -- Armond Warblade 15:14, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Still, to bring a backup hex, remedy, and an IAS (assuming 4 skill chain) requires you to abandon a res sig. Also, with the current 5 skill spike, you have to forego one of the above too. So you lose a res and either your backup hex, IAS, or anti-blind. This is OP, but I'm sure there are better reasons than anti-blind and anti-block. Especially since rigor mortis would benefit other spikes just as much (I'd kill for unblockability on my derv, which is why they don't have it without stripping one of their own enchants or using a long recharge enchant.) --Kalas Silvern 00:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

So? It's still workable. -- Armond Warblade 17:46, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

AOD is broken? OMG. Thanks, master of the obvious. SP is also not broken? You lost your title as the master of the obvious is revoked. KTHNX. -- NUKLEAR IIV 13:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's workable. However, my point was that it can be difficult to have everything you mentioned- you're likely to only have two of the three things I mentioned if you want to have a res sig. Last I knew, res sigs were still important, so not having one is a problem. You only get one extra slot if you do bring a res and an IAS- backup hex or anti blind is the question. Just trying to give some perspective, something that is often lacking in this discussion (like 600 damage combos- I don't think it's hit that at any point, at least not in over a year). --Kalas Silvern 21:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

If you're going for a 600 damage combo, you're not planning on taking a sig anyway. See also: AB, CM, resmer, non-assassin teammates with sigs. -- Armond Warblade 23:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

But again, you're running into the problem of utility vs. power. To be able to nearly guarantee the spike, the whole team has to be dedicated to it, and the sin has to forego any versatility/utility. Other classes can pressure better and still throw out high damage spikes at quicker rates than a sin- if an all sin team isn't blinded or shut down in some way (b-surge helps, before inep was nerfed, it was nice to defend against them, hex breaker stops a hex, anything remotely resembling a block stance- since it's just sins, so none of them can abandon their anti-blind for anti-block without losing their IAS, etc.) interrupt one attack somehow and the spike fails. And as I said, I don't they've been doing 600 damage in the last year, I've been under the impression that it's more low-mid 500's max, with the most generous calculations possible. And remember, I agree with you in preferring a short, fast recharging pressure and utility oriented play (on par with warriors would be nice, but Anet loves them too much to give derv and sin a real chance). --Kalas Silvern 06:29, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Is SP even used anymore? 76.89.81.150 05:39, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

You'd be extremely surprised at how powerful it still is. Snare + instant standing next to someone is completely overpowered, since it's a hex. People just won't think up new builds, and in large part can't possibly make them due to most other sin skills sucking badly. Go run something using palm strike or something, and whether you're effective or not, 9/10 people will kick you (Even in AB, where tons of builds get in- I actually do have a decent palm strike build for AB, not sharing though. Nothing amazing, but it works). --Kalas Silvern 06:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually if you would drop energy cost to 5 energy and change to skill it wouldnt have the synergy and the snare is to short to be rly used for that.proly still OP Lilondra 09:48, 24 June 2008 (UTC)