ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Ritualist/Ancestors' Rage

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Armond's Discussion

Your description of the 'Issue' may well be correct, but it's not a problem, no need to change. --ChronicinabilitY 19:09, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

This is stupidly high, stupidly spammable damage. The biggest problem is that it's only 5 energy. I logged on to my PvE ritualist one day (this is a very rare thing) and looked over my bar, which at the time happened to include AR. The moment I saw the 5e, I remembered why I don't do HA. It's way too easy to get caught in this, even in GvG - a warrior runs up next to you, the rit starts spamming AR for essentially no cost. Exhaustion was a good start on this, but it was too much; a flat 10e cost and recharge boost is the next rung on the ladder. -- Armond Warblade 19:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd go with 15 energy, 5 recharge. A burst skill, with a high cost. Make the Rt lose 1 energy per foe hit, perhaps?

I disagree with the recharge change. It's the instant cast that makes it godly (plus the damage of course). It has to be counterable somehow - right now it isn't. Cast time should be 1 second (cost still should be 10).

Also, if you think this skill isn't a problem, even though every single gvg team runs it, you need to play the game more and see what people are running. This isn't about how useless 99% of ritualist skills are, this is about how the other 1% breaks the game in every arena. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 23:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately it does matter if 99% of the ritualist skills are useless because if you nerf the last and the only viable skills to crap, Ritus will simply disappear from the game, which is worse than just an overpowered skill. Zealous 11:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

make it 10sec recharge then , 10 energy is too much for this skill , don't nerf this into uselessness like 99% of rits skills , rit is by far the most underpowered class in the game 189.70.157.91 00:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

No, this needs to be 10 energy. 5 energy is nothing; 10 energy at least makes you think about energy management when you're making your build. -- Armond Warblade 00:36, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I say make it 10 cost, 1 cast, 8 recharge.--Skye Marin 05:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

10 energy cost , 1/4 cast and 8seconds recharge would balance this skill then , this skill is purely for aiding in melee spikes , increasing the cast time would make it totallly useless on pvp , making it a pve-only skill to be used with a tank. 189.70.170.208 15:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

People would run Me/Rts with this if it were 2s cast, simply because it's such good pressure and they're already /Rt for FoMF. -- Armond Warblade 19:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Can you fast cast a plain old skill? Thought Fast Casting only worked on spells...--Underwood 19:12, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

This is deliberatly overpowered to promote channeling magic User 24.141.45.72 19:12, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Wait, wait, an enchantment skill? -- Armond Warblade 19:46, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Apparently so... What the fuck? -- Armond Warblade 19:47, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

What is wrong with you, are you feeling ok? This is now a skill, it used to be an enchantment spell but was changed.--Underwood 19:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm really not getting the concept of an "enchantment skill". :/ But wasn't it changed like that to prevent RtL telespikes with enchantment duration modifiers? Bah, if it were just a spell (not an enchantment spell), it'd be fine, and then it'd be stoppable at 1s cast with mesmer interrupts. -- Armond Warblade 19:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

this is an skill , no more a spell , so fast casting would not affect this skill since it only affects spells and signets , so increasing the cast time is the same as killing this skill 189.70.170.208 19:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, we've discussed that. Make it a normal spell, not an enchantment spell, and it'll work fine. Besides, honestly, I'd rather see this dead than dominating the game as it does now. -- Armond Warblade 20:01, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

How about making it target other ally only?--76.64.101.188 20:43, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't matter, this is pretty much only used on a warrior after he's dived into the middle of the enemy backline anyway. -- Armond Warblade 20:55, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

It is normally used on target other ally in GvG, so this wouldn't help i think... My suggestion: "Skill. For 1 second, nothing happens. When this skill ends, all foes adjacent to target ally are struck for 15...80...100 lightning damage." With this damage reduction and an increasement of the recharge time to 12 seconds i think this would be ok, without being the next Ritu skill nerfed to death! -.- A. von Rin 20:59, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

well , reduce the damage a little bit and increase the recharge like A Von Rit said , or increase the energy cost , keep the same damage and 12sec rechage , just don't kill another ritualist skills -.- , rits got more than a half of it's skills nerfed into useless 189.70.170.208 00:08, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

or u can lern to pre-prot a-rage and leave it be User 24.141.45.72 00:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Sure, tell me what I can do to pre-prot whoever the warrior decides to head near every eight seconds. -- Armond Warblade 04:58, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

This is probably the only good rit skill. --Readem 23:32, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I dunno, Weapon of Remedy isn't too bad. But this is also broken, you have to admit. -- Armond Warblade 07:42, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

wor , ancestor's , splinter and warmonger's are the skills that makes rits alive in pvp , the problem with this is that it's the same damage as lightning orb , its spammable and uninteruptable , just lower the damage on this , it would be fine imo 189.70.159.187 15:42, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll admit that this is overpowered, but rits have virtually nothing at this point. And I'd rather see the cost go up than have the damage reduced. Rits have practically no good skills left in communing, channeling and spawning power. --Epinephrine 18:22, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

That's no excuse for shoddy balance. -- Armond Warblade 22:19, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

True. I'm just hoping that if it is adjusted, a few other ritualist skills will be looked at for improvements :/ --Epinephrine 22:39, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

They should buff some skills before nerfing the 3 that still are good if not, they just can delete this class i think... .___. A. von Rin 01:09, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Great plan, leave the broken stuff and risk introducing more broken things. Awesome. -- Armond Warblade 02:15, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I think we should leave this skill alone for now. While it is strong it does give Rits a place in the team for PVP. Besides this is one of the few Rit damage skills that is still used in the Channeling line. --Shadetz X 08:56, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I think I said four or five posts above that rits being playable is no excuse for shoddy game balance... -- Armond Warblade 09:40, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Nobody's forcing you to bring the 200 some unusable rit skills. Rits are a problem because they bring the only 5 usable rit skills, which coincidentally, are all overpowered. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 11:18, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The best and most obvious way to nerf this skill without making it somewhat obsolete is to increase its casting time and recharge time (around 12 seconds, probably). Some of the worst tactics that have been employed previously by balancing caster skills is increasing the energy cost. I'd suggest not going along those lines. 76.64.186.18 04:47, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Right, I think a 12s recharge nerf is also appropriate (as I said above), but leaving this at 5e is just insane for the kind of power you get from it. Meteor's another one like that, but as you referred to, it's balanced by the cast and recharge times, not to mention exhaustion and the fact that the entire rest of the line is pretty bad for PvP. However, as only two (three?) of those four are reasonable to apply to this skill, I think a cost increase is also in order. -- Armond Warblade 20:36, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Why not just a damage reduction and recharge increasement, as i posted before? Playable, but weaker than it is now. A. von Rin 01:06, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

reduce the damage i'd say , maybe 10...70...85 would be fine for this skill , just don't kill it ~~ --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:189.70.185.150 (talk).

The damage isn't a problem, and if you lower it to 80, it will still be broken. The uncounterable aspect is the problem - there is no way to stop this skill. It needs to have a cast time. Then something else must be done to it so it's not better than (insert any ele damage skill here). ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 00:34, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

This is one of the few skills that makes Ritualists viable as a class. I don't even have a problem with this skill, as it enforces good positioning. If it must take a nerf, just raise its recharge to 10-12. Don't change anything else. --Readem 09:15, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, because other 5e spammable spells do this much, amirite? Only comparable one is an elite. Also, I'd like to know your reasoning for keeping rits viable being a good idea... -- Armond Warblade 08:50, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Rits are the worst class, conceptually. Someone should have been fired when they were making Factions. A class that does everything better than all the other professions. What a joke. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 11:52, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

@ Shard: Yes, maybe the concept wasn't good (like the Paragon's one), but actually Ritus are the most ineffective class at all - except for the few OP skills, that will be surely nerfed... There is nothing a Ritu can do better, than another class and the whole concept is relied on Spirits which were killed by balance updates. So it is important to rebuild a working Spawning system to give this class something it is good in and not only to destroy the few working skills they have! 83.171.167.88 02:42, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Ritualists have the capability of being a fairly interesting offensive and defensive support class, which is largely what Splinter/Ancestor's have been accomplishing, they've just been doing it far too well. Paragons, on the other hand, are conceptually a class that makes your group uber with uncounterable buff spam and all the user has to do is roll their face on the shout hotkeys and press the Spear of Lightning+Harrier Toss buttons when the spike counter hits 3. Riotgear 07:16, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Those overpowered skills are the reason rits are better than any singular class. I agree rits need to be reworked, but since "remove from game" is not something Anet intends to do, we must resort to suggesting these nerfs (and buffs). A class that people use because of its specialty is fun. A class people run because they have to in order to win is not. 72.235.48.41 13:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

My suggestion: Change to pulsing damage, decreasing the punch-in-the-face factor of it while still leaving it useful for damage pressure and functional in PvE. Riotgear 07:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow the update reduced damage by 10. Yeah it's the extra 10 damage that made teams win at VoD. 10 energy and 1 second cast, then put the damage back up 10 points. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 03:07, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

damage was reduced by 20.Streetp 23:32, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Big fucking deal, tbh. -- Armond Warblade 02:31, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Sometimes I think Izzy is afraid to go as far as he needs to. This update didn't change anything. 72.235.48.41 23:39, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Rits suffer all the time, not fair...(they suck compared to all the other professions) start buffin or stop nerfing --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:78.52.29.89 (talk).

They do? Find another nonelite skill that costs 5 energy, has no cast time, short recharge, and does 110 minimum damage. A-Rage is the best skill in the game by far. That's why 100% of GvG teams run it.

Find another nonelite skill that gives health regen and guardian, but lasts 10 seconds and can't be removed.

Find another nonelite skill that heals for 110+ and removes multiple conditions for 5 energy.

Rits are the best class in the game. They deserve the nerfs. The only reason people ever run monks in GvG is for the elites - all the nonelite rit heals heal for more and usually have a bonus.

If rits took up two character slots instead of 1, they'd be balanced, and that wasn't a joke. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 05:29, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with what people are saying above about the recharge. Love this skill but it's too spammable, up the recharge 50% to 12 seconds. It requires close proximity for effect and snares often make the skill miss, but it's too quick on the recharge offering too many chances for the effect to connect. The Sins We Die By 18:34, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Ancestors' Rage vs Fireball

Now tell me this skill's balanced. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 05:31, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree it's not balanced that's why the recharge needs to be 12 seconds, but since this requires close proximity vs being a projectile I have no problem with the cast time being under 1 second. The Sins We Die By 06:55, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

@ Shard: Is it fair to compare a slightly OP skill with a under powered one? Fireball needs a 1 second cast time, then it is good. Ancestors just needs a 10-12 seconds recharge and a 0.75 cast time, then it is also fine... A. von Rin 13:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Fireball underpowered? What game are you playing? Fireball is a staple, it's technically impossible for it to be over/underpowered. All distance AoE spells should be equal in overall power and usefulness to fireball. Recharge won't kill A-Rage, the problem isn't the spammability. The problem is how unstoppable it is (can't interrupt/remove it). 1 second cast so it's counterable, then 10 energy to match fireball (it'll still be better than fireball). ~Shard (talk) 02:33, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Explain to me why you're using this on yourself instead of your melee characters? -- Armond Warblade 22:31, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Fireball and Ancestors seem actually to be pretty inline atm, with only fireball being underpowered because of cast time 76.26.189.65 03:08, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Ancestor's looks pretty balanced at the moment, they lowered the damage. What Shard has suggested is completely underpowered and I understand he has some bias against ritualists. Give him a chance to rant about a skill and he'll say that rits are overpowered. And yet, you see them so rarely in organised GvG or HA beyond gimmick builds, even though you claim their spiking capacity is so superior. Try to visualise what you would do to this skill. You would be taking it out of the game. Seriously, I don't understand what you have against rits. 192.168.1.1 21:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Well that showed me, Shard got what he wanted. At least, temporarily. 192.168.1.1 18:54, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

LOL it's funny that people think I hate rits. I don't hate rits. I just hate broken skills. This skill is broken, so I hate it. See where I'm going with this? I didn't get what I wanted. It needs to be 1 second cast and 10 energy. It'll still be overpowered at that. People use fireball now. A-Rage at 1 second and 10e is still better than fireball. Explain how that will remove it from the game? They'll still have the overpowered heals to back them up. Please, explain to me why 10 energy and 1 second will bring this skill out of gameplay. Right now rits are the "win the game" profession. If you don't understand why that's not ok, you really shouldn't be criticizing other people. ~Shard (talk) 13:12, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Just make this and splinter PvE skills tbh - they're poorly designed. Without a complete re-working, the only option would be to nerf them into oblivion. Like you said, 1s cast 10e would still leave this imbalanced, but making it any worse would leave it trashed. -Auron 13:26, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Fireball has e-management skills that go with it, also given that it's a spell reduce cast effects work on it. These are very comparable the difference is stand alone AR is better, but you can't judge skills based off their numbers alone you check with other effects in the game. ~>Sins WDB 00:14, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Because ancestor's rage doesn't have Offering of Spirit or anything? -Auron 00:39, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

No, it doesnt. It's inefficient in terms of its conditional and isnt worth the health sac, especially when WoR is a better choice for an elite. Energy Capacity/Attunements/GoLE is efficient. ~>Sins WDB 03:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

WoR isn't a better choice for an elite, seeing as it isn't even in the same attribute. That's like saying Ward vs Harm is a better elite for a fireball ele - it doesn't matter because it doesn't make sense.

Offering of Spirit and Ancestors' Rage are in the same attribute - one shared with splinter and an easy-to-spam spirit, Bloodsong. Those core skills are all that exists of channeling, unless you want to count Caretaker's Charge as well (which isn't earth shattering, but isn't utter trash).

The restoration line is powerful, but lacks energy management on its own. The only time people run serious resto is with even more serious energy management; Necro primary for SR or ele primary with gole/mind blast/glowing ice/etc. Restoration alone is a bad line, as most of the heals are either expensive or conditional... or both. Rits suffer more than monks in this aspect because monks don't need to rely on spirits, which take time and (lots of) energy to set up - just to have them killed in short order. Bringing spirits also limits the number of pure support skills you can use.

Yes, Ancestors' Rage has Offering and Caretaker's as energy management, just like fireball eles have Mind Blast. You can't discount a perfectly valid (and quite nice) energy management skill simply because you prefer running another one in a totally different attribute line. -Auron 05:52, 27 April 2008 (UTC)