ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Ritualist/Splinter Weapon

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Pls delete skill. Or, pls fix VoD. File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg nuke7 File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg 12:58, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Deleting skills is not a great option, but putting the skill active on only attack skills would reduce the benefit from archers at VoD without eliminating it completely, since a (not so) recent GvG change gave archers more attack skills. --Angelic Loki 01:18, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

What about raising the recharge time? -- Gordon Ecker 03:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

This idea could work, but it would have to be on par with other AoE options, so approximately 10-20 second. Lower because its a conditional AoE, but still high enough that it cant be spammed. --Angelic Loki 01:20, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

This is a 5 cost, 200ish aoe damge skill. Recharge needs to be at least 30 seconds :P. Forgeting the corny idea, how about... makign it work only on ranged attacks? File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg nuke7 File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg 21:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

How does that fix the problem? It would be used on paragons, which are prevalent in high ranked PvP because of support. Making it trigger on attack skills only would make the skill cause AoE during spikes, and only moderate pressure, as warriors and dervishes don't tend to use attack skills to cause pressure (Other then Disarm and Bull Strike, and disarm is mostly a line backing skill with a interrupt side effect) It would force Wars or Dervs to use attack skills when they normally wouldn't to get the AoE effect, and I think that is a good downside. --Angelic Loki 00:20, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

But a paragon using it goes -50 -50 -50, while a dervish goes -200. The insane explosion hurts. That's needed to be fixed. File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg nuke7 File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg 17:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

If they are that balled up in front a derv, they will hurt like heck anyway, regardless of splinter. Nevertheless, your comment about it being overpowered on a derv is well taken.. I think thats just natural synergy though. :-/ --Angelic Loki 18:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Loki, people don't round up to be slaughtered like lambs. NPCs do. And the people, well, they get hammered into the crossfire. The problem with the "only triggers on atk skills thing is that, well, them dervishes have attack skills too. File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg nuke7 File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg 20:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I addressed that, saying not that they didn't have attack skills, but that it would force them to be used when they normally wouldn't be. I would have to disagree with the "people don't round up to be slaughtered like lambs" part as well. While the best example of a perfect environment for AoE in PvP is certainly the Archer ball at VoD, look at Hero's Ascent and Altar Capture and Capture Points. you NEED to be on the altar, and if you move off, you give it to another team. they DO round up to be slaughtered. Even in normal PvP, its not uncommon to hit 2-3 targets with 1 dervish spike. Trust me, I've seen it happen frequantly, and I pay attention because I usually monk. If, as you said, people didn't round up to be slaughtered, the skill wouldn't need to be nerfed in the first place, since it doesn't add damage to your target, only adjacent targets. Also, Attack skills have recharges, whereas normal attacks have essentially none. This means that unless you are spamming your attack skills on recharge, you will never come close to the pressure this skill currently puts out. A dervish spike approx every 8 seconds (the recharge on wearying), in which 4-5 normal attack get off (assuming you aren't spiking the MOMENT your skills recharge). Now, I'm not set on this nerf, I just think its a good one that doesn't remove the skill completely from the meta. Your nerf (making it only work on ranged attacks) doesn't reduce the pressure at all from the skill, it just changes which target its on. --Angelic Loki 01:17, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

if you want to nerf this, make it trigger on attack skills then, for me, this skill is already balanced enough, it's finally a usefull skill 189.70.171.99 23:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Dont nerf rits into death pls ;).A prof can have some skills that are a bit overpowered *cough* guardian *cough* and because rits already have so many worthless skills *cough* weapon of fury * cough* you guys shouldnt focus on nerfing the rest but on buffing the underpowered skills.Lilondra 09:40, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Here's the thing about "rits have 200 useless skills so they're fine"... You don't have to bring those 200. Characters in fighting games can be balanced that way because their movesets are locked, but when you can custom design your own moveset, having useless skills you aren't required to use is irrelevant.

I kinda think splinter would be cool (and not so broken) if it only did its effect when someone blocks an attack, as Splinter Shot does. Then make both skills deal the damage to the blocker and adjacents, instead of just adjacents. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 06:06, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

That would certainly make for an interesting skill, but nerfing it that way would be a much bigger nerf. The reason people wouldn't bring it is because they wouldn't be able to guarantee the other team would have enough block to make it effective. And yes, some Rt skill are worthless. Now, Unyielding Aura, Second Wind, Wastrel's Collapse, Incoming, Headbutt, Soul Leech, Lyssa's Aura, Greater Conflagration, Mist Form. All of these skills suck compared to splinter. I guess we had better buff some non-related skills from all those professions to compensate. I think that effectively points out your logic flaw. :) Just a friendly reminder to not buff skills based on professions. --Angelic Loki 10:02, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

It's already been nerfed to the point where carrying it on non-Rit primaries makes it too weak to do anything. Any further nerfs would kill it completely. 76.89.81.150 15:12, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

It scaled exactly the same damage wise as the Heat skills from the Fire Element line. The difference is that this skill can be used constantly, and deals damage constantly. Any profession can easily spec 8 attributes. 15/10/8 is a very viable attribute split. Assuming 2 targets are hit per second (Optimistic in both cases) and 8 attributes. That means Searing Heat does 6.16Dmg/sec. (total damage including burning / 30 seconds) and Splinter does 20.8Dmg/sec. (Assuming 1/2 targets takes damage and accounting for wanding/axe speed of 1.3 seconds per swing) There is a little discrepancy. Of course, splinter the target has to hit, so its not quite as large, but its still a big difference. --Angelic Loki 00:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok yes it does a lot of damage but that doesnt make it OP,Remember that the fireline has more decent skills to combine it with!If you got channeling you got 2 skills that are worht taking  : splinter weapon and ancestors rage both of them have been nerfed several time (aspecially ar) and imo,they are balanced now.What you guys are requesting is to kill the only reason people even got rt on there character and until spawning gives a damage bonus to channeling spells these skills can not be nerfed.You say searing heat deals less damage ? That is true,but searing heat can be stacked with other aoe's,splinter weapon cant be stacked with another splinter weapon.In the fireline you got rodgord wich is also a very nice damaging spell.So even if a skill is stronger then another one it is important how you can combine (anet does also follow this theorie check barbed arrows).Making it only work when it blocks is meh imo.Cause most warriors will just switch to another target because of guardian and let the prot monk waste more of hes energy.Lilondra 06:46, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Your point is well recieved, but there ARE other things in the channeling like, such as offering of spirit, and good direct damage such as Wielder's Strike. in the event that more direct damage would be needed, these do excellent things. People only use those 2 skills, because they are all thats needed. Rts are pure utility, because they have so many slots for skills open. Splinter + Ancestors = 1 full fire ele, but your right, only 1 can be used at a time (unless of course, you have 2 melee, in which case you can use 2, so I guess they CAN be stacked, cant they?)--Angelic Loki 08:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

True but a aoe is shure to give his effect,The use of splinter weapon can be countered by blind,by block or by just NOT mobbing up (wich is quite rare anyway).Now the npcs have been placed further from each other so that splinter isnt rly effective.Also blocking will negate 75 % of splinters damage if im not mistaking.And pls dont make me laugh that much it hurts ;).I mean offering spirit ok but why would anyone want to use wielders strike ? there are much much better options.Wielders strike is not rly rly overpowered but other skills are better and while youre running support you might as well take something else.II realise that you are right at some points but nerfing splinter weapon is just not an option.Even if it would be imba (wich it is not!) it has more then enough counters and any further nerf will kill it.Lilondra 13:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Lilondra, current PvP forces ballups. And to quote here are a few quotes, pls think on them:"Viability of Rts is no excuse for shoddy game balance" and "The idea here is the balance the game not promote Rts". this. Skill. Needs to go.

Hi mr unknown can you explain to me how current pvp forces ball ups ? can you explain to me why you just can not blind,block or disrupt the splinter ? Why people always run it on the flagger so it isn't up all the time ? If everything that is powerful needs a nerf then i don't get it,sry for that.

look a couple of posts above, it is stated why people get the hammer by splinter. But lemme explain: In GvG, you don't ball up, but at VoD, the NPCs ball up. So when your invici dervish looses a wearying on them, you get axe'd. In HA, you ball up at the alter, and as I stated, like lambs to the slaughter. And you can't distrupt a 1 sec cast skill that can be precasted, and dervishes (most common splinter targets) can get blinded, and blocks are irrelevant when the NPCs don't get aegis bonus. File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg nuke7 File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg 13:59, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Because then diversion,eviscerate,shame,etc would all need a(nother) nerf.Yes this is about balancing but the rts doesnt have many skills so actually youre going to invest attribute points in 2 skills cause the rest of the line isnt worth the skill slot (yes i know offering of spirit but that energy management and again utility).For example Anet doesnt want an axe to inflict bleeding and cripple easely,The only ways to do that in that line are axe rake and lacerating chop,both needing a requirement.So in your view sever artery would be overpowered because lacerating chop is far inferior.(I am aware of the fact that lacerating is an UP skill im just giving a example). However the reason why lacerating reqs such a hard to meet condition (sry im not investing a elite,exhaustion or anything else just to get bleeding on an axe) is because axe shouldnt rly have it easy inflicting bleeding.This is because axes are dps they have a higher one then swords that is correct but they have more skills for it (executioners,eviscerate,decapitate (lol wut),etc) while swords have sever,gash,cripslash etc.The point is that a skill can be much more powerfull then another one but the attribute line in wich it is used is also important (because of the other benefits of that attribute line,energy management,other skills etc).Thats why glass arrows is elite and kindle arrows isnt (doesnt deal kindle arrows more damage ?).Imo perfectly balanced.Lilondra 06:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Lilondra, this makes no sense. You have 2 skills, one of which says aoe 100ish damage for 5 energy, and never misses, and another that goes "FUCK U!" at VoD. The rest of the bar is irrelevant (maybe except Weapon of Remedy, another godly skill). and besides, you can hammer all kinds of cool, unremovable utility there like WoW, or hell, mbas for HA and stuff. File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg nuke7 File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg 13:59, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

My take on your is that while yes, I accept that some skills are more powerful then others because their attribute is meant to do what the skill does, that doesn't make one skill vastly more powerful then the next. Both skills are equally powerful, one is just a little easier to use. Problem is that splinter is both easier to use, and Vastly superior in a attribute that is not meant for AoE. Face it, the Rt is a utility class. Nobody uses more then 2-3 spells from channeling because they dont have to. Those 2-3 skills vary, but in 99.9% of balance its ARage and Splinter. You made a point though, so let me address it. I'm not suggesting a nerf to the damage from splinter. I'm suggesting you make it a touch harder to use. It would be the lacerating chop of your example. Its still powerful, and with the right usage, would be exactly as powerful as it is right now. It would just be harder to use, because the Rt isn't meant to deal massive AoE damage. Yes, the person with splinter on them can be blocked, while AoE cant, but Splinter weapon only triggers when they hit so it will stay till the hits happen, and when it does, the actual splinter damage is unblockable physical, with huge synergy with barbs and mark of pain. Please dont allow these other guys to shut you down though, as you are absolutely correct with your line of questioning, I just already thought of those points before I offered the suggestion. :) --Angelic Loki 10:43, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

loki, you sum it up nicely. Still, I don't like the idea of triggering only on melee attack skills. Wearying says hi. File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg nuke7 File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg 15:05, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually melee attacks would be a good update as people would stop using it if they just want to attack.Nerfing damage would just kill the skill while this might be inresting.Nuke pls people no longer use trees because they have other(better) options for the current meta.If you dont like the synergy with barbs you can actually just change the damage type wich would solve that problem.Also npcs have been placed wider at vod so splinter is no longer hey i can farm the npc's in matter of seconds.And dont try to NUKE every skill to death as wor is NOT OP geez get over it that not all skills are as useless as wastrell's collapse.Lilondra 17:43, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The thing I'm honestly most worried about with the nerf is the encouragement of the mindless ranger builds, such as the R/D Escape ranger and R/W RaO that just spam their attack skills. The wider archers at VoD is nice, but you still usually fight from within the archers, which hurts ._. and at the same times, putting splinter ON your archers hurts too, since they almost never stop attacking. Your archers now have 2 attack skills too, so they would still use the skill well. I didn't limit it to melee attack skills either though, Ranged ones would still work too, so Ranger attack skills and Paragon attack skills would still trigger. And yes, anything that INCREASES the aoe normal attack of the derv is annoying, but thats because the AoE attack of a derv is a touch broken as it is.... --Angelic Loki 19:18, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Your idea of making it only trigger on attack skills is really good. That would be enough, if they improved the AI of NPCs or just made them kite on Scythes' AoE (this would be the best thing). A. von Rin 21:39, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

That problem already is there and youre update wont boost "use scythes" any decent guilds runs a shock axe and a hammer (most of the time),topguilds often dont follow the meta,they create it and they are not bound to brainless builds.Scythes are powerfull with splinter weapon I will not ignore that but I can ashure you that a eviscerate spike with splinter weapon will have dealt hes 200 aoe in matter of secunds while a scythe needs mystic and eremites for that (skills that should be primary bound as they are way to powerfull in conjunction with critsin or anything else but anyway).The idea is fine it will stop the brainless use of it and will force ritualists to take more channeling skills.However that line should be buffed as there is no reason to cast spells like spirit rift in the current meta!It was strong with ritspike but then again requiring a knockdown to work is not something we like (I hope).Lilondra 06:21, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

lil, The idea here is not to try to nerf balance, but try to nerf stupid gimmicks lower ranked guilds run to roll middle ranked guilds. Triptree is one, and the one with the A/D jackass was another. Oh, and I havent seen any top guilds with Rt's, maybe that's me not obsversing much? File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg nuke7 File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg 15:58, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, the idea would keep its effect in a normal balance of create AoE spike damage, but I dont like how it makes builds that run gimmick front line that much more powerful. @nuke, I just obsed the top matches, and 5/6 of the guild were running a Rt runner.. maybe you hit at the wrong time of day? --Angelic Loki 01:40, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Might be. Did those said guilds Rt's run Ancestors rage or Splinter weapon, by any chance? I'm guessing the answer is yes. File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg nuke7 File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg 15:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

This is a hard skill to balance unless it takes a functionality hit. Maybe for 20 seconds, all attacks deal 1...7...8 damage to adjacents. 72.235.48.41 13:20, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

What about rasing the cost or recharge? -- Gordon Ecker 23:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid that the functionality is broken gordon, not the cost nor the recharge. Maybe anon's (two up) is the best idea. -- nuke7 File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg 00:01, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Make it apply to attack skills only, I'm pretty sure that was posted before and seems to be the best way to go. Then you don't kill the dreams of splinter barragers everywhere = P. Seriously though, attack skills only prevents splash from random wanding and the like.~>Sins WDB 01:46, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I've explained why that doesn't work. I'll say it again: Wearying Strike says hai2u. NUKLEAR IIV 09:47, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

The Nerf

A step in the right direction. Good Job Izzy! EDIT: forgot to sign... NUKLEAR IIV 22:07, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Second. --71.229.204.25 21:54, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

...But In for a penny, in for a pound. Finish the job. Axe it moar. This needs a "Whenever this damage triggers, you lose 1 energy" clause. NUKLEAR IIV 22:35, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

You're awesome Nuklear. Unfortunately, it's going to be reverted. Baby jezus kills a crying kitten everytime Splinter nerfs get reverted.Akirai Annuvil 18:21, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

This skill shouldn't exist. Just axe it to uselessness already. ~Shard (talk) 13:13, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I haven't lost my faith in izzy yet. He'll axe it. -- NUKLEAR IIV 20:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

PT's suggestion

I lol'd. This gives you +250 damage, WTH are you complaining about. Because it doesn't deal +800 as before so you can no longer farm the turai procession quest? Gimme a break. Hopefully Izzy knows what to do. 213.121.242.200 14:34, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Another example of "I used to abuse it so bring it bak pls" argument. I really hate it when people comment without having at least this slightest bit of idea on the issue. L2Play. -- NUKLEAR IIV 17:06, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Hope that wasn't against me, because I fully agree with the nerf 213.121.242.200 11:24, 19 May 2008 (UTC)