Feedback talk:User/Aquadrizzt/Skill rebalance/Monk
Having looked trough it i notice a couple of cons in it. First is the name changes of the skills, too many of them have been renamed and too many have been named after Dwayna. The problems you will have is that many skills now have similar names wich makes it difficult to remember wich dwayna skill does what. When the skills have many different names like they do now it is easier to remember them and what they do. You also changed names of multiple skills that have become an understanding wich is a no-go. Second is the large ammount of new skill functions you have addded for the monk. Changing some skills based on GW2 skills isn't bad but what you did is overkill. Multiple skills have their type change while there is no reason for such a change. Incantations, auras and cantrips have the same functionality as spells do wich makes me wonder why they even have their skill type changed when they act like normal spells/enchantment spells. The incantation does interrest me, in particular the incantation enchantment that you have earlier in your suggestion. It gave me an idea wich you could use to give the incantions a functionality that is unique to them and identifies them as such.
- Incantation: whenever you can a healing prayers.protection prayers/smiting prayers spell on an ally that ally is enchanted with [skill name] for xx..xx seconds. [Add enchantment function].
You could also give them the ability to add an aditional effect to the monk spells. To keep such a function balanced make it for than an xx ammount of spells instead of all spells for the duration of the incantation. Anyways your monk suggestion (and quite often like Falconeye) needs alot less skill type and name changes. Da Mystic Reaper 12:31, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
- I looked thru and noticed the proposed change to Symbol of Wrath. What about it's twin Kirin's Wrath? Honestly i'm no good at suggestions, it just seemed odd to propose a change to one and not the other.Durp da durp 14:38, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
- @DMR: Thank you for the criticism. I'm going back through and renaming some of the skills back to original (or more appropriate, non-Dwayna) names and trying to squeeze them into existing names. In regards to skill type changes:
- Auras function as maintained enchantments with a variable drawback (i.e. instead of -1 energy regeneration, an aura costs more based on how much use you're getting out of it.) Auras are powerful, PBAoE enchantments that were inspired by Double Dragon; by making the cost scale with the use, it prevents gimmicky exploitation (which most of the currently existing maintained enchantments suffer from IMO.) Beyond that, as can be seen with some of the skills in the DF line, auras are designed to be their own system separate from enchantments.
- I'm scratching cantrips/orisons entirely in this round of edits. I had plans to make them a part of a larger system (i.e. cantrip/orison-modifying skills) but I think that those kind of fell flat and I'm not sure how I would continue with them. Maybe further done the road I'll revisit these.
- Divine Enchantments were my (perhaps heavy handed) attempt at preventing excessive numbers of healing/protection enchantments from being stacked. (Now that I think about it, I'm considering limiting a character to some decent number (maybe 3-5?) active enchantments. This would prevent the use of enchantments as invincibility shields ["oh you used fire damage, that's mitigated by this; oh you tried casting a spell on me, that's mitigated by this..."].) Those will probably be scrapped and I'll replace them with better implementation of enchantments as a whole.
- Your idea for incantations sounds like what I was trying to do but failed to find a method for. I'm definitely implementing that in this round of edits (if you don't mind.) The idea is intriguing and I think that it will produce some pretty cool results.
- @Durp da Durp: This suggestion is part of a larger suggestion that was inspired in part by Falconeye's skill balancing idea. In it, he suggests that every attribute be reduced (or built up to) exactly 5 elites and 20 regular skills. As I am designing my system around those numbers, duplicate skills are either transformed, or removed entirely. For example, Kirin's Wrath had been removed, while Symbol of Wrath had been made more powerful. Any skills not explicitly listed would be removed from the available skills for players. Aqua (talk) 03:06, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
- @DMR: What do you think of the implementation of incantations:
- @DMR: Thank you for the criticism. I'm going back through and renaming some of the skills back to original (or more appropriate, non-Dwayna) names and trying to squeeze them into existing names. In regards to skill type changes:
10 
1 
10 
Incantation. For 10...50...60 seconds, whenever you cast a spell that targets another ally, they gain +10...18...20 armor for 3...9...10 seconds. Ends after 1...4...5 activations.
- Again, numbers can be shifted, but I'm realizing now (or rather I realized while making the changes) that incantations are now just really cool Divine Favor bonuses. I've scaled back the renaming of skills quite a bit as well; there are only about 20 renames across the entire profession, and those are designed to give better and more appropriate names to new skill functions. Once again, thank you for the criticism, it helped me focus and refine what I was trying to do and the results are improving vastly. Aqua (talk) 13:57, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
- Having gone trough your incantations my first though is to limit the incantation you can maintain to just 1 like stances and preparations so their effects cannot be stacked. Second is to limit them to monk spells only. So far as functionality goes they look fine. Da Mystic Reaper 14:59, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
- I've already limited the number of available incantations to 1. (See here). As for limiting incantations to only affect monk skills, I'm hesitant to do so, as that could destroy any potential synergy they could have with other profession skills. Aqua (talk) 15:48, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
- Removing copies is one thing, balance is another then there is complete changes in function of a skill that anyone can use with no other similar skill (that many use to get multiple titles for the HoM not just weapons). Balance is a minor change to help counter misuse, some misuse every skill. Does this update suggestion break the underpowered 55 monk? I never tried that.Durp da durp 23:34, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- See my comments on the monk page. Aqua (talk) 23:57, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- I mean no ill will, it is just coming from enjoying gw1 in its present state. And NOT enjoying the imbalance among the classes and build dynamics, and limitedness of gw2. When ur abilities max at max lvl and all that is left is WvW or PvP making gw1 more like gw2 seems backwards. CooperativeOnlineRPG vs MMORPG. PvE there is too limited and as A-Net has said some things in gw1 will never be done and gw1 is being put on autopilot. Let each stand on it's own merits which have been 'fine' for years in gw1 and improvements are more needed elsewhere (gw2). This is coming from someone who never PvPs and mostly plays with heros only or just a few friends, does nothing just for profit to help only themselves and does indeed OWN GW2 Durp da durp 18:20, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
- See my comments on the monk page. Aqua (talk) 23:57, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- Removing copies is one thing, balance is another then there is complete changes in function of a skill that anyone can use with no other similar skill (that many use to get multiple titles for the HoM not just weapons). Balance is a minor change to help counter misuse, some misuse every skill. Does this update suggestion break the underpowered 55 monk? I never tried that.Durp da durp 23:34, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- I've already limited the number of available incantations to 1. (See here). As for limiting incantations to only affect monk skills, I'm hesitant to do so, as that could destroy any potential synergy they could have with other profession skills. Aqua (talk) 15:48, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
- Having gone trough your incantations my first though is to limit the incantation you can maintain to just 1 like stances and preparations so their effects cannot be stacked. Second is to limit them to monk spells only. So far as functionality goes they look fine. Da Mystic Reaper 14:59, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
- Again, numbers can be shifted, but I'm realizing now (or rather I realized while making the changes) that incantations are now just really cool Divine Favor bonuses. I've scaled back the renaming of skills quite a bit as well; there are only about 20 renames across the entire profession, and those are designed to give better and more appropriate names to new skill functions. Once again, thank you for the criticism, it helped me focus and refine what I was trying to do and the results are improving vastly. Aqua (talk) 13:57, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
(Reset indent) I will start by saying that I do not disagree that GW2 needs work. But that is not the point of what I'm doing. This series of suggestions is about 1 part suggestion and several parts personal thought exercise. I would be incredibly surprised if any of this got implemented, but I'll throw my ideas in the hat and maybe something good will come of it. I am targeting what I perceive as an imbalance in GW1; maybe it will bring some life back to this game. Aqua (talk) 14:32, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
- Honestly some could be good for a skill update along the lines of the ele rebalance. Many are similar but not far from the current version. Way of perfection is a good idea and another condition removal would be useful (or apply a random condition) and is similar to gw2. The thought put into it shows. The kinda annoyedness is all based on the fact that most times i play is either doing different stuff with mostly one friend and heros or sometimes with other ppl i meet in my travels. But most often its just i get bored and go do different stuff i like as far as quests. Often if i see someone looking for a run i'll offer (eotn tours, droks, marhans, granite, desolation i never tried except backwards from after kodash back to remains which didn't work out but w/e i wanted to not ride wurms). Honestly i'm not a fan of PvP but perhaps skills like these could be fun for that #3 idea i came across wandering DMR's 'beach'. Retro could be a fun idea for 'later' if thats what these are part of and even in gw1 some could be fun. It's just i really <3 to run. Farming is fun too for cash / rare drops but it gets boring, but boring is good sometimes. I don't 'run' dungeons or do SC's. Chest Running is the lockpick lotto and i like to gamble on chests. So hopefully they don't change SF (too much) because soooooo many meta builds use it and it is usable by anyone if they choose to try. (Less lagg helps tho) so really what is currently imbalanced there? Durp da durp 22:06, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
- I assure you there are still plenty of running skills. I've listed a bunch of running skills in the Shadow Arts line that I buffed on the assassin suggestion talk page. Shadow Form makes very little sense in that "you cannot be targeted by spells" is what is retained. If you blocked all attacks if would make much more sense given that its in the Shadow Arts line. I am definitely open to suggestion, but I do not want to encourage gimmicky play (such as perma immunity to spells...) If you look at the skills I currently have out now, Aura of Displacement is much better as a running skill, but see also how it can be used as something beyond running. If you're by yourself, it gives really high block chance at low energy cost. If you're with a group, you can give allies really high block chance as well at a bigger energy cost. I'm trying to reward smart play, things like that are how I want to do it. Aqua (talk) 01:37, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
v1.1[edit]
Hi, you may know me! I was thoroughly bored, so I decided to read through any of your finished skill rebalance feedback pages and comment on them. You can hate me whenever! :)
General theorycraft[edit]
"and foes take 2 holy damage whenever you cast spells on them." "your maximum health is increased by 5 health per rank of Divine Favor"
- 2 holy damage per rank of DF adds up rather quickly. A quick glance at your suggested DF skills emphasize the importance and efficiency of this line. Due to DF also increasing your health, you get a following near-mandatory 16 DF spec, yielding: 0-75+80 = 5 additional health when under the effects of an aura or incantation (assuming you're a monk in PvE Hard Mode, you want the effects of Holy Veil at around r8). This, in turn maximizes your DF skills (without cons and shrine bonuses), as well as the attribute's passive effect. 32 holy damage per spell cast on enemies (doubled against undead, a whopping 64 damage). And the almost free, upkeepable +5 net gain in health all around. A lot of energy management via Deny and Dismiss (ignoring a secondary profession for now), and if you really don't want a selfless elite, Defender's Zeal makes energy management obsolete). Basically the only heal you need is in DF also (Signet of Devotion), assuming you have some form of protection via other team members (Ritualists can prot exceedingly well, and combined with any form of proper shutdown, that 1 heal is more than you'll ever need. This leaves around... 4 to 5 skill slots wide open for a lot of fun.
Healing Prayers[edit]
Now, if I wanted to further my healing capabilities, I'd spec healing instead of smiting and abuse the new Orison just to catch HM spikes that might hit through the protection my team already has. That is then almost literally the only heal I'd need from that line (it has no recharge, though I'd have to be wary of my Veil running out). But obviously with that amount of team protection I can attempt to rely on DF's heals alone, and keep on searching...
Smiting Prayers[edit]
And find the new Word of Censure and Spear of Light. These two, combined with the passive effect of DF (which only triggers on Spear, admittedly), pack an insane punch for almost no energy and a very short recharge, basically alt-tabbing enemies to find out who has full or near-full health (and bringing it back down to about... 40%).
Example skill bar[edit]
You've effectively created an initiator with killer condition and hex denial (two skills that deal in the area holy damage upon removing conditions), superior energy management, and an optional slot. The only thing it'd have to pay attention to is the amount of uses is left on their incantation (or just load up Spotless whichever is more necessary to alternate, or Shield Guardian, if you don't want to bring any dedicated healers due to your team's superior defenses). All of that is excluding PvE-only skills. One tip, though, never run this on a monk hero. They will be shit at the whole thing.
Now, almost everything above is mildly exaggerated for the emphasis of the imbalance of certain skills (not that the current game is in any way, shape, or form considered balanced, but still). Speccing 16 DF is pushing it, the most important breakpoints are (seemingly) at 14 DF, so we respec accordingly:
Weakness-proof version[edit]
370 base health + 75 health under the effects of any incantation = upkeepable 445 base health
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- 11 + 1 + 3 (15) Divine Favor; 10 + 2 (12) Smiting Prayers; 10 Protection Prayers
Slash care about weakness version[edit]
405 base health + 70 health under the effects of any incantation = upkeepable 475 base health
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- 10 + 1 + 3 (14) Divine Favor; 11 + 1 (12) Smiting Prayers; 10 Protection Prayers
Protection Prayers[edit]
Now, I saved this section for last, simply because I am at a loss for words about it. First the elite skills. I will quickly rephrase them to make my point:
5 ¼ 8 Elite Enchantment Spell. For upkeepable seconds, enchantments cast on target ally are free, instant and last until they are stripped. Cannot self-target.
10 ½ 15 Elite Aura. Hug monk for protection. Your monk becomes useless in less than 5 seconds, unless they stop being huggable.
10 ½ 30 Elite Enchantment Spell. Remove all hexes from target ally. For 5...17...20 seconds, that ally is *almost* invincible. Cannot self-target.
5 ¾ 15 Elite Enchantment Spell. Remove all conditions from target ally. For 5...17...20 seconds, that ally will not die depending on the amount of conditions that were removed. Cannot self-target.
10 ¼ 8 Elite Enchantment Spell. Until stripped, *two* target allies cannot be harmed at all times.
Then, most importantly, the regular protection prayers skills. I noticed you changed good old Guardian into something conditional. Then again, Pensive Guardian has become a staple prot skill. Slight duration increase on Protection Spirit. You actually buffed Shield Guardian (as seen above), even though it was in no way underpowered (this is easily the most overlooked monk spell in PvE in the game, hands down). I assume Succor is supposed to be a maintainable enchantment still. Either way, you have not addressed much of the actual prot monk issues: they're outplayed by ritualists and paragons. This update barely changes that. I think the elites are too much, and the regular skills are too little, concisely.
Overall conclusion[edit]
I like some of these redesigns a lot. Fully understand what you're trying to turn monks into (and it's a very decent approach), but I feel it hits a few overpowered notes. But an example skill bar as seen above is typically a no-go. Under no circumstances should a monk deal enough damage every 5 seconds to drop almost any standard enemy under 50% maximum health. That being said, the rest of the smiting prayers line is generally underwhelming, but in terms of what monks should do versus the actual damage they can pump out, smiting prayers in your redesign is fair. Save the Smite Condition/Hex spells, as the in the area range is really pushing it with that amount of damage. Maybe give Reversal of Fortune its original targeting back (unless it's meant to be any target). Signet of Mystic Wrath needs a hard cap, at least in PvP.
Monks have always been very decent healers (better than ritualist primaries and secondaries only with certain bars). But now they are considerably better than any other healers out there. Healer's Boon combined with Orison of Healing is simply a faster and cheaper version of Word of Healing, that can be spammed because of the abundance of energy management monks now have (allowing other secondary professions to shine on their bars). Combined with Vigorous Spirit, it's a full redbar combo. This leaves 5 skills to manage energy with, and do other monkey things, such as throwing Watchful Healing around.
Protection prayers has been in rapid decline ever since shutdown and ritualists rose to power. As stated above, this does not change that. It actually makes the monk even less staple as a protter.
Divine Favour currently has a handful of staple skills. This update would make it a lot more viable, but it would push the line way over the top. It's a step in the right direction, but overshooting the ideal by quite a bit. The other professions currently being too strong doesn't mean weaker professions should join them up there. Instead, tone the professions that are too strong down a little bit, while bringing the weaker professions up to par.
PvE-only skills are 50/50. Seed of Life looks just fine, whereas Selfless Spirit feels extremely weak compared to most other skills on the page. Perhaps something along the line of:
5 1 30 Incantation. Whenever you cast a spell that heals a party member, allies near that party member are healed for 25...40% of the same amount. Ends after 1...3 activations.
Anyway, it's just a quick suggestion. PvE-only skills are supposed to feel stronger than regular skills, because (supposedly) PvE is more difficult than PvP (only in Hard Mode (and only in certain areas and content)).
This is my perspective on this monk rebalance, and admittedly I have not yet touched the subject of secondary professions in effect directly, simply because I want to wait with that until all your profession rebalances are at least on v1.0 each. In short: concept is fine, details are still too unstable. - Infinite - talk 13:06, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
