Feedback talk:User/GreatWallStr/Concept Race - Lyrens

Will not make it to the release of the game i'm affraid. Adding a new race all of a sudden might be too hard. But for an expansion, who knows. - J.P.Talk 21:45, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh yes, I know. I never imagined it would make it in time for the release-- these things usually take years in advance before even beginning the graphic design phase. However, I figured it would be an interesting addition to an expansion, taking advantage of undersea features and such. :) Thank you Very much for commenting, though! ^_^ And if you have any suggestions regarding stats, abilities, etc that you think would fit along the lines of their 3 philosophies, please feel free to add commentary, suggestion, or direction. Thanks! GreatWallStr 22:16, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

saw this article of yours on guilwars2guru aswell :) goodluck definatly should be considered for an expansion.--Dagnir 02:08, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

lyrens

its a G R E A T idea!!! this is unique!! I cannot see any problems with the race! why should it not reach the release... I thought it would be somewhere in 2011.

I like the name, i like the style, i like the... suggestion! regards, Frozen_Ice_Prince --Frozen Ice Prince 19:25, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Awww thank you! :D I'm so glad you like it. I would be amazed if something like this could end up in the game after being introduced so late into its production, but I would be honored if it did. :D I read about how they wanted the underwater areas to really be amazing, and I figured the best way to appreciate underwater graphics would be to be able to "live" underwater as a Lyren. Of course they earlier mentioned that they are not planning to have a limit for how long an air-breather could be underwater, but I thought it would be interesting if they did have some limit (even if the limit is, like, an hour) and then there could be spells that could expand this time limit by a great amount. I don't know, it just seemed fun. xD Whatever ANet chooses will surely end up great. :D I'm soon going to upload my next idea for some creatures dwelling near Cantha, but I'm hesitant to since they seem a bit much like elves.... hopefully I'll be able to edit them enough to make them unique *fingers crossed for good luck*. :D ANYWAY, thank you VERY much for your comment, and I'm very glad people like the idea. ^_^ -GreatWallStr 19:53, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Underwater race is a nice idea imo. it could be a good opportunity for a fun and different extension of GW2. ;-) --78.248.81.65 13:12, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

reply to reply

maybe i'm the only one that likes that idea! (i do like it), what do you wanna do about a limit in air if the 'human' is in a city ore outpost? --Frozen Ice Prince 21:04, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Well the whole "air limitation" thing is up to ANet (obviously), and is not essential to the existence of Lyrens. However, if Lyrens were able to buff others to allow longer time limits, then a "lyren guide" could be very useful. Remember that the capital city is at the surface, so people can easily visit it. Another idea would be making giant air bubbles around the cities, or some method of filling them with air for the sake of surface-dwellers. Any suggestions? :D GreatWallStr 23:21, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I just came across this and i love the whole idea, like you said, if we can venture off into the water, why not have a "underwater" race :). As for outpost, theres tons of caves underwater where you are able to breathe due to air being trapped, all it would take is a little GW magic to make sure the air in outposts can support both the land and sea creatures :P Once again i absolutely love the idea of "Lyrens" as a race but there are some difficulties to overcome. If a race would not be able to get to certain areas im afraid they wont be used much. And i can already picture myself fighting side by side with a Lyren haha, so that would be a shame. It would seem easier for Humans to survive underwater than it would for a Lyren to survive on land. I havent rly done much research on whats comming in GW2, so please correct me if im wrong. Ive seen talk of consumables which would make it possible for a human to stay underwater for longer periods of time, so that same idea could be inverted for the Lyrens. Heres some questions i would like to get an answer for. Would the Lyrens have legs enabling them to get on land? And do you have some sort of "advantage" in mind for the Lyrens, for example the ability to swim faster? I've put this page in my favorites so ill check it daily to see if you have anymore news. It would be absolutely awesome for an expansion :D De4ThWi5H 19:35, 3 March 2010 (UTC)Deathwish

Oh yes, Lyrens are made with legs (though when swimming they do a dolphin kick to swim, and have slight webbing between their toes). Notice I wrote that Lyrens were made in the image of humans, though they do not know that. They have both gills and lungs, and can go from one to the other. Unfortunately they grow weak if they are away from water for too long (by "too long" I mean days and weeks at a time) but a simple bath or dip in a pond will keep them from drying out. :) I'm very glad you like the idea, and yes, I want them to be able to swim at extremely fast speeds, so as to make water travel their best method. Thank you SO much for commenting, and I'm glad you like it! ^_^ --GreatWallStr 19:59, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

(I'll tell you a bit of a "secret": When I FIRST came up with Lyrens, I pictured them as being like a mermaid, with their fin-like ears and dorsal fin. When applying this concept to Guild Wars, however, I realized it would be very difficult to have someone without legs participating, so I used the excuse they were made in the image of humans so as to give them an excuse to have legs rather than a fish tail. ^_^ GreatWallStr 20:06, 3 March 2010 (UTC) )

Ahh yea i just saw it, i missed the part where it said they could swim much faster than normal, my fault. And yea as for the leg question, i was thinking the same thing. A fish tail wouldnt seem right. It would be cool to have that advantage over the other races, without damaging the balance. Lyrens can swim faster than any other race, Charr can jump higher than any others or run faster (on hands and feet as shown in trailer), Asura can use their Golems or other advanced technology and Sylvari could somehow use either the earth itself, or plants to their advantage. And as for Humans.. well imagination on the loose i guess :P, better climbers (thumbs ftw lol), more agile, something like that. Still lovin it! :) De4ThWi5H 20:32, 3 March 2010 (UTC)Deathwish

Haha that WOULD be very cool: A Charr is chasing a Lyren, and is quickly catching up. The Lyren is just about to be caught by the Charr when he reaches a lake and dives in. The Charr jumps in as well, but the Lyren is already one-third of the way across the lake by the time the Charr tries swimming after him. :D Yay for speed differences! xD and I can see it now: a Human is being chased by a charr, so he runs to a tree and climbs up it with squirrel-like speed and precision. xDDD --GreatWallStr 20:38, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

There it is haha, looks like we're on the same page :P I'd like to see all that happen :DDe4ThWi5H 20:44, 3 March 2010 (UTC)Deathwish

Yeah! Also if they were to add "Stance of Eldarron", it could also make GREAT ninja-Lyrens xDDD GreatWallStr 20:50, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Would "Stance of Eldarron" enable everyone to walk on water for the period it lasts? or just Lyrens?De4ThWi5H 21:29, 3 March 2010 (UTC)Deathwish

hmmm, you know that is a good question. I was originally thinking it would be unique to Lyrens, but I don't see why they wouldn't be able to teach the technique to other magic-users. :D After all, it'd be fun having it be granted to Lyrens + certain professions. :D --GreatWallStr 21:53, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Well my concern was more along the lines of it being a very very good skill, perhaps too good lol. Being able to run on water where others (including foes) have to swim might grant Lyrens too much of an advantage in areas containing lots of water. Unless it would be something like "5-10second activation time -50armor while using". Kind of like how Eldarron had to realy focus his powers, the other Lyrens now know the skill, but it would still require the same period of time to do it. would be cool to actualy run over water though! De4ThWi5H 22:10, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a great idea! :D And I want it to be something that can be turned on/off, but while on it drains energy, and once off it requires 5-10 seconds activation time to begin again. :D Any other suggestions? xD I'm terrible with statistics and such, so if you have any (such as how much energy per second, etc) I would greatly appreciate it! :D --GreatWallStr 22:18, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

How about.. "For 20 seconds you are able to walk on water, you lose 2 energy while moving. Ends if you jump". the recharge time of the skill could just be like 1 or 2 seconds, since standing on the water without moving wouldnt make any sense, creatures would still be able to reach you with ranged attacks. Moving causes such a drastic energy loss you wouldn't be able to chain it more than one full duration. Especialy with the use of other skills while on the water your energy would soon drain completely. De4ThWi5H 23:13, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Oooo I like it! :D Very good idea, and much better than I could've come up with. xD To tell you a "secret": I've never played Guild Wars lol. My friends all own it and I've seen them play, I've heard all about it, I've read all about it, and I really REALLY want it, but I've never gotten it before. xD Sooo that's why I'm so bad when it comes to statistics lol. But I'm DEFINITELY going to get GW2 when it comes out; no doubt about that! :D --GreatWallStr 03:18, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I admire you for being able to wait another year to play GW :P. Although from what i can tell so far the difference between GW and GW2 will be so big it will be a completely new game :D. Lets hope we see some Lyrens somewhere in the future :). Heres another one for you.. As a race it's called Lyrens, an individual is a Lyren.. I've actualy said the word a couple of times now and imo Lyren just sounds better, the S at the end gives it a weird little ring. Kinda like when you see people saying "Charrs" instead of "Charr". Just thought i'd mention it lol. I take it you drew that picture of a Lyren, you should try for one more detailed, id love to get a better idea of what a Lyren looks like :D. De4ThWi5H 17:00, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks xD and yes, I think it will probably be a big difference. Yeah, Lyren works too :D ATM I'm designing another race called the Thwyllo, then I'll work on the Escari (which I will probably change the name of when I begin working on them lol). Thwyllo are a bit taller than humans, have elongated ears, similar in shape to that of a goat. They would fit nicely with Cantha, since their architecture and clothing is based on Japanese culture. They are telekinetic, so although they cannot "fly", they never walk; they are always floating. Even when sleeping or relaxing they will be floating. xD I'm still working on designs for how exactly that would work, but it's coming along slowly. ;) --GreatWallStr 20:40, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

You could use the Mursaat as a bit of a guideline for that :) De4ThWi5H 22:22, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Oh! Good idea! I'll do that, thanks! :D --GreatWallStr 22:41, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion

Well thought, interesting lore. Reaper of Scythes** 20:51, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! :D I felt that even though Abaddon was evil, perhaps his creation could be on the side of good... or are they? ;) --GreatWallStr 20:56, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I like it a lot, specially the lore part. Would be amazing if ANet would pick this idea up. -- Large 22:36, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Aww thank you. :) I think that the Lyren race would leave quite a few opportunities for various things. Abaddon was the god of secrets, after all; what if his creations were simply vessels to house his energy, or even to the point of being gateways for his power to flow through. They could be unaware that they themselves are evil at heart, and it could be a whole philosophical "are they TRULY evil if their evil deeds are not by their own doing?" or something of the sort. xD I don't know, it all depends on what ANet wants to DO with them! :D But I still think it would be fun. ^_^ Thanks again for your comments, and I'm SO glad people like the idea :) --GreatWallStr 22:44, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I Love the race idea, wholeheartedly, but I must say that your race's appearance bears a very close resemblance to the Tideborn from Perfect World (also, several ideas of lore for them). Arenanet might look down on that in particular due to preventing any assumed plagiarism. All that legal mumbo-jumbo out of the way, did I mention I love the race Idea? Cause I do.--Neithan Diniem 06:12, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

I know! I was SO saddened when I saw Perfect World use my idea. I mean, I've had this idea for 4 years (almost 5). Originally Lyrens were like merpeople, then over time I made them more like nymphs. I know I had this idea before Perfect World, but I guess someone on their staff and I are too like-minded. xD So yeah, I guess Lyrens are out since Perfect World used the idea. :P --GreatWallStr 16:34, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

-But, on the plus side, at least they made the tideborn look cool! ;) It's like seeing my sketchbook brought to life or something, which is really cool to see. :D --GreatWallStr 16:35, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Well now that more info is being released about GW2, you could probably perfect your idea in ways that would move it away from the Tideborn and be more GW-ish. With the way skills, combat and the like work now, you could probably make the changes and still keep true to your idea.--Neithan Diniem 02:29, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I'll try that! Thanks for the inspiration! ^_^ --GreatWallStr 02:50, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Lol want to know how I originally came up with Lyrens? Well long ago (almost 5 years ago, now) I for some reason was obsessed with the ocean, and liked the idea of merpeople; but not your average merpeople. I had just written a report for my teacher about mythology, and when I had read about the Sirens, I instantly loved the idea. Well, later that day I went shopping with my dad, and upon nearly bumping into someone, I opened my mouth to say "pardon me" but they said it first. However, when they said it, there was something about the way they said it that sounded like it didn't come from them, but rather echoed around in my head (perhaps it was really just echoing around the shelves; whatever the case may be, I don't know). So I immediately thought "THAT'S what I want a Lyren to be like: for their voice to be like an echo, like a whisper." and that is when I began planning the whole "melodic voice" aspect of Lyrens. (And obviously I named them "Lyrens" after the instrument Lyre, just as Harpies have "Harp" in the name). So there you have it, the origins to a creature that I spontaneously thought of 5 years ago. As to why their ears are like fins, I based it off a game I loved called Total Annihilation Kingdoms, and the queen of the sea had fin-like ears. I adjusted the ears to how I liked them, since I found having fins for ears was quite a creative concept. I know it really sounds like I ripped off TAKingdoms, but I was only 11, after all. xD Later on I made more modifications to make it more unique, and eventually the Lyren as you know it was born. :D Aaaand of course after I finished making it how I wanted, Perfect World suddenly ends up with one like mine. xD Back to the drawing board for me? Lol --GreatWallStr 03:00, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, well, if you edit their appearance some, like making them seem MORE mer-like, yet skill keeping them true to your current description, would probably be a step in the right direction. The possibility of adding a literal tail might be a stretch, due to the necessary size of such a tail. However you could work up additional differences. The only "fish" like things the tideborn have the the ear-fins, and thats not a trademark feature, as TAKingdoms shows (never played that game, but I loved the original TA). Also lore can easily be changed; things about their city, civilization, and the like would quickly set them apart from the practically cliche tideborn. Research a little into the mythology of sirens and other such mer-creatures, and then focus into the lore of Guild Wars and how it incorporated mythology into itself. That should provide you with plenty to go off of.

As for a little lore I thought of upon reading your above post, you mentioned their "echo-like" voice. well, what if their vocal chords naturally made "echoing" harmonics to their voice (similar to having two/three voices all talking in harmony). That would boost their siren connection (and would be fitting, seeing as several oceanic creatures make echotype sounds). I also developed a mer-type race, though for a comic concept and not a game feature. My idea for a mer had an interesting gill structure, namely 2 sets. One was at the neck, and used for inhaling water and communication (via squeaks and whistles made by water being forced through the neck gills), and the other located on the sides below the armpit meshed between the ribs was for exhaling. Their lungs were uniquely shaped, with a non-connected dual-chamber system. Breathing underwater collapsed their air lungs, and the water would flow through their smaller tunnel-like aqua lungs. When they surfaced they would expel the water through their lower gills, causing their air lungs to inflate. Then their gills would tightly close and they would breath like humans. Their fins were all fold-able, which they would do so when surfaced. They had fins on their lower legs, hips, back, head, and wrists. Mostly their fins were used to help them swim, like the ones on their legs made their kicks more powerful and the others made them highly maneuverable. The fins on their wrists also held barbs that they should use for combat. As for their heads, their foreheads were flatter, not as prominent as a human's. Their noses were rounded into their face, with slits for nostrils. Eyes were slightly slanted, bigger than a humans. They had double-fin ears, with the actual ear canal behind a smaller fin and a larger fin slanting up behind it. Skin tones were differed from individual to individual, being mostly any lightly iridescent color you could think of. They were mostly speckled with a darker or lighter color as their skin. Their fins were very colorful, mostly of more vibrant tones of their skin, and more iridescent.

Wow, got to typing then realized how long that was O.O . Your welcome to use any of the ideas there. I never made the characters, merely kept them in my head. Using them for a possible shape-shifter character Im in the works of developing for my art.--Neithan Diniem 04:16, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

WOW! Those ideas are really creative, and they would really add a lot to make Lyren unique. I'd be ever so grateful if we could incorporate those ideas into them, and of course I'll give you credit for those ideas. :D I was wondering what their architecture should be like. I mean, Guild Wars has Japanese and Chinese architecture (Cantha), Arabian and Egyptian Architecture (Elona), old english, french, and german architecture (Kryta and Ascalon), Norse Architecture (Dwarves and Norn), Aztec and Mayan architecture (Asura), and even steampunk style architecture (Black Citadel); but as far as I know, they have not used Greek or Roman Architecture... I don't want to be TOO stereotypical, though... so should it be inspired by Greek and Roman Architecture, but with some particular differences? --GreatWallStr 13:59, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Feel free to use and edit any of the ideas there, I really don't mind. As for architecture, "Atlantian" springs to mind. They were heavily based off of Greek design, but I'm sure it could be integrated with other ancient architecture. Egyptian/Greek perhaps? Keep the overall archaic Greek style as the base, but incorporate the simplicity of the Egyptians, perhaps closer to old Greek, before they got all superfluous in their designs. I could see domes and columns easily incorporated for their designs, spires and towers not so much, maybe rarely. Also due to the fluidity of water, sharp angles in their buildings might look odd, keeping these to a lowdown might be good, meaning more round and oval buildings with sloped roofs. As for building material, they could use shells (similar to Luxon, perhaps for roofing tiles?), oceanic plants (somewhat Sylvari, decorative walls, or as a replacement for fabrics in construction or for richly designs for buildings?), and "reefs"(large barnacle and plant covered walls for the cities, perhaps even used as 3d gardens for the citizens?) along with traditional limestone bricks (mine-able from underwater). Due to the lore you have on them, their cities are both under and above water, though probably mostly under. You could even have them live in underwater ruins in places. I wouldn't think they would build tall buildings, but more so spread out with smaller buildings on the outskirts, and larger ones in the center (like the Greeks). Primary colors Id think would be blues and aquas, and whites and blacks due to their oceanic ties. Culturally I could see the Lyrens just like humans, having farms, livestock, markets. Farms could be fish farms and shrimp farms (Large netted box-like cages to keep them in the "field"), seaweeds, and clams. Animals could range from traditional creatures like dolphins, sharks,seals, and octopuses, to unique creatures to the Guild Wars world (sea monsters). For their manufacturing, anything that incorporates water and currents (like turbines, waterwheels, or even "windmills" that use water currents instead) would probably fit in quite well. Vehicle-wise I can see boats for above water, though perhaps even submersibles (Being underwater dwellers, its plausible they would develop submersibles before traditional boats). It would be interesting to see those at least, being as the Charr are the steampunk technological guys, and the Asura wouldn't be interested. A bit of more lore for them, the ocean shares heavy ties with the moon, do the Lyrens have any tie to it as well?--Neithan Diniem 16:15, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Wow! Lots of great ideas! :O You're really creative! I originally had them living deep underwater, so they aren't too affected by tidal changes... however, that could change with their introduction to the surface world. You have totally inspired me to keep pushing this idea, and distance them from Tideborn. Currently I've been reworking fins and head shape; I can upload some of my sketches if you'd like. ^^ --GreatWallStr 01:09, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Ahh, i see kinda suckish but u might not have to start all over with your designn!As i looked at the TideBorn i see that they do not wear the helmet as the Lyrens did and that the Tideborn are mostly babyfaced and lightcolored maybe you can have the Lyrens have beautiful bonish face but not showing alot of bones in the face(if u no what i mean)and maybe have them be gothic since abbadon was "evil" and the tideborn seem to be a little slutish lol:P maybe you can make urs not that slutish with a lil more coverage.now the tideborns hair is really weird with alot of shells and stuff in them maybe yours can be curly, straight(whatever) but with little pearls in them(or whatever size) now for how they fight/interact the same i would have to play the game(as i downloaded it before and got confused lol) Just randomly throwing suggestions out there.haha(:!----IcyyyBlue ♥♥ 18:55, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

reset indentWell, following the current GW model, the Lyrens would have several facial structures to choose from, along with hairstyles that were plain, styled, and adorned, and multiple skintones. I think that in GW2 they would make even more customizability, allowing for more uniqueness as a race as a whole.--Neithan Diniem 19:18, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

?

is this cool idea gonna be accepted ore not? i'm waiting for the result Anet!!!!!!!! it would be great...

New Design

So, going by the new design provided by Neithan Diniem, I have made some changes to the anatomy of the Lyren, as well as to their culture. :D Thanks Neithan! I LOVE the idea of the ability to physically switch between gills and lungs, as well as the vocal gill slits. Do you think they should be able to make special noises similar to that of, well, an orca? These noises could be useful underwater; sort of similar to a Charr's "growl", it's just a vocal expression that means something to Lyren, but not to other races. For reading, I was wondering if they could have some form of reading from right to left; bottom to top. They could have 3 "languages", being a formal language (used in temples, ancient tablets, and by priests and priestesses), a common language (used by all), and an oceanic language (of squeaks, trills, and chirps that have a harmonic resonance to them, useful in oceanic communication). What do you think, Neithan? --GreatWallStr 03:37, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

-Btw, the oceanic language would be through their vocal gill slits, which is why it would be squeaks and such, rather than enunciated words. --GreatWallStr 03:39, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Well I said above that they could make such sounds by forcing water through their neck gills, similar to what we can do with air and lips. Wouldn't be hard to assume they have "Vocal chords"that react with water. As for an entire language, beats me, really. Originally I had my characters manage with simple communication, similar to animal sounds that they would use to communicate (like with hunting packs, or trained animals, but a full blown language would be quite interesting, and add much more depth to them. If your going to have two vocal languages, methinks some form of "catastrophe" or the like might be interesting (sinking of orr?) that decimated their culture, causing a large time line gap in their race. That would easily account for such a split in languages of one for common and one for traditional and religious affairs. Slight more depth to their religion would also strengthen the reasoning behind their bother to honor such affairs with an archaic language. Oh! making the archaic language more melodic would fit extremely with with them and any such lore of "Sirens" that may be in GW 2 (added upon this race's release I'm assuming), and it would fit in nicely with the way you have their voices developed. Cant wait to see all the changes, as this race would fit into Guild Wars 2 perfectly with the fact that 50% of the game will be underwater. Also, Im honored that you decided to use some of my ideas. I might not be so creative when it comes to actually putting my thoughts to paper, but I tend to develop deeply into things similar to this when I'm making a good story in my head).--Neithan Diniem 05:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Omg where have you been all my life!?!? xD Lol I love deeply thinking ideas! Omg talking to you is like a total breath of fresh air. :D Your ideas are so perfect for Lyrens, but I have 1 little thing I'm still struggling with... the name. Whether it should be "Lyrens" or "Lyren"... I know "Lyren" sounds a little smoother, but they're based on Sirens, so maybe they should be Lyrens... I don't know, what do you think? ^^ (btw, I'll upload some pics later on; incorporating a smoothed head as well as one with a frontal lobe. For their nose I made it rather rounded, but anything in these designs can be changed-- the pics are just to give random ideas as to "possibilities", if that makes sense. ^^ They don't really have "nostrils", but rather a series of openings running up along the outer nasal passages; that way it could be efficient for filtering water for gills, or being used to breathe air. But again, these are just "ideas" in a very raw form, and are completely open to suggestion and direction. ^^) --GreatWallStr 12:22, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Haha, Thanks. It sounds to me that "Lyren" would be speaking of an individual, and "Lyrens" would be the race as a whole.--Neithan Diniem 13:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

So for "breathing", how does this sound? They have 4 main "openings", being their Nasal openings, their mouth, their throat gills, and their lower gills (right along the lower ribs). When breathing underwater, the lower gills, throat gills, and nasal openings are all open. The lungs are collapsed, allowing water to freeling flow in through the nasal opening and throat gills, then down into the chest cavity. The gill chamber (in the chest cavity) is filled with foldable gill arches that contain the gill rakers and gill filaments. After filtering through, it exits out the lower gills. Lyrens don't have a diaphragm, but rather they have strong muscles lining the chest cavity that can expand and contract.

When closing the lower gills and expanding their chest cavity, more water is sucked in. By closing the nasal cavity as well as the lower gills, water can then be forced upward and through the throat gills; causing it to pass through their duel-voicebox. Doing this creates resonating harmonic chirps and whistles. However, if the throat gills and nasal openings are all closed, and the LOWER gills are opened when the chest muscles contract, that will cause water to quickly rocket out of the lower gills, propelling the Lyren forward a bit (similar to an octopus' siphon).

When a Lyren reaches the surface, they expand their lungs, taking a deep breath of air. While doing this, they close their lower gills and throat gills, breathing only through their nasal openings and mouth. Though they are breathing air, they can still create resonating sounds when they speak. Their duel-voicebox creates the harmonics, and the resonance comes from the deepened chest cavity. When speaking english (or whatever "language" the majority of Tyrians speak), they over-enunciate with mild overtones (due to their wide vocal range) and the usual harmonic resonance.

What do you think? ^_^ --GreatWallStr 18:03, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. Interesting. Originally I was going to question the need for the nasal opening to be used when submerged, but I think I have a good loophole patch. The lower branches of the Trachea and lungs are closed off while submerged. Then, two "gill tracheas" would be opened, travel from the neck gills and connect with the air trachea's main tube. Then they connect to gill chamber(s?)and split off to the lower gills. The merge is necessary because when the trachea branches to the lungs are cut off, the voice box is still part of the main "breathing" system. That will let them use their voices while under water (What good would their voice have been if it were only effective out of water, which they just now started to travel on?) and allow for their nasals to be used for actual under-water scent detection. Aquatic creatures such as sharks have an extremely keen sense of smell. Might be another interesting addition.

The water-jet propulsion sounds quite ingenious, save it would indeed require a very strong muscular contraction to propel it. But Im sure that creatures that grow up in such an athletic-requiring environment would be aptly toned for such needs.

Re-reading this that I wrote sounds to me to be getting nit-picky, however... Describing HOW a creature functions isn't needed, only the fact that they work. I guess it would be needed should anyone ask, but otherwise its just something the casual player would glance by. The culture of the race Is probably more important then how their dual lung/gill system works. What you have so far however is Amazing.--Neithan Diniem 05:59, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I totally get what you mean; it sounds awesome! ;) Nit-picky is good when it comes to getting details right. Yeah, I have gone back to Perfect World and examined the culture of the Tideborn to see how we can make Lyrens different from that. Some of the problems I saw with the tideborn architecture is it is VERY stylized, meaning although it is pretty, it is very "busy" in appearance, if you know what I mean. Lots of combinations of light and dark colors make it seem a bit TOO much. Like you were saying with adding the Egyptian culture to have the Architecture more streamline and have "beautiful simplicity", essentially-- that is what Tideborn lack. The tideborn's main style is with a conch shell pattern, whether that be for the roofs or for the buildings, you find it everywhere. Again; not very streamline, nor is it very "soothing to the eyes", but rather it is quite rigid in shape and overly-complicated with colors (not every building should have 2 or 3 full color spectrums Lol). I've been looking at sort of "redesigning" buildings as we know them. After all, underwater you are not limited to ground-access, so there would naturally be many openings on multiple levels of the building. Without rain or hail to be problematic, buildings wouldn't necessarily need roofs; or at least not need completely closed roofs. What do you think? --GreatWallStr 14:17, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Grand pavilions and rooftop gardens from the Roman empire just popped into my head. Essentially they should keep to a somewhat organized layout (floors and the like), though multi-level floors and such would be more fitting and unique. No, not all buildings need roofs, nor to all buildings need complete floors or need to be built on the ground (cliff sides, cave/ledge roofs, arch/bridge-buildings spanning underwater ravines, openings in the floor thats the entryway...). There's a lot of possibilities. The Tideborn did have too much of an IN YOUR FACE color pallet, which is why more subtle tones for the Lyrens would be perfect. Shapes would also be simple, as anything defined would be worn down by the water or built upon by barnacles and reef organisms.--Neithan Diniem 16:27, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Exactly; Tideborn buildings were a bit much, which (like you said) is all the more reason for Lyrens to be subtle, and have that "quiet beauty" that makes the deep sea so magnificent. ^^ I've been doing lots of designs, but one thought I had utilizes an odd building pattern; it's inspired by ants. You see, ants dig whole huge systems and all, but sometimes to study these organized structures, scientists will select a specific ant hill, then pour cement into it until the entire structure is filled. Afterwards, they begin excavating until all the dirt around it is gone, so you can see the whole structure. Basically it is a whole series of bridges, spherical rooms every couple feet, and central "meeting areas" built among the multiple levels of halls and rooms. I thought this concept could be neat if applied to an underwater city. Perhaps "Osdonia" (or whatever the name ends up being; nonetheless it is the abyssal city of the lyrens) could be like this:

Built along the cliffside of an abyss, Osdonia features 7 city districts, each built on many levels. The levels are built in a double helix pattern that is intertwined with the cliffside, allowing this city to literally be "perched" upon the rocks. This city was first constructed by merchants who found the rapid currents directly above the abyss to be perfect for travel between Halishine and Nalia, and soon Osdonia became a bustling city with a thriving population. Marine life commonly migrates along the currents directly above Osdonia, and the annual migrations help the Lyrens keep track of the seasons. Due to the depth, Osdonia does not experience "night" and "day", but is lit by bioluminescent rocks and algae.

So, what do you think? :D --GreatWallStr 23:51, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Not bad man, though I think as a whole, the race needs a set architecture, unless there are separate Lyren groups (like how Elona and Vabbi are separate). That or design their entire architecture around what is used in Osdonia or blend it all with your previously chosen architecture. It also hit me that geothermal could be utilized by the Lyrens. Steam power, anyone?.--Neithan Diniem 03:07, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

yeah, obviously someone like Matt Barrett would do better with drawing their architecture, but I think we have the basics down for that. Though, I don't quite know how creatures who are wholly dependent on magic to use steam-powered technology... should perhaps the Charr have some sort of machine down there? It could play into their storyline or something.

As for lore... I'm not quite sure what to do. I mean, they consider themselves to be the Children of Abaddon, yet they are created as beautiful beings. Maybe it could be due to Abaddon wanting humanoid worshipers, or perhaps what little love he ever felt was spent upon "raising" the Lyrens. Maybe he planned on having them populate the world after he was the supreme god; I don't quite know which line of thought to take lol. Should there be a faction of Lyrens dedicated to freeing Abaddon? --GreatWallStr 15:27, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, the Lyrens dont even necessarily have to worship the 6 gods of the humans, you could place their own deity in place, And Abaddon has been dead for 250 years, so there is no freeing him. Also, how are the Lyrens wholly dependent on magic? If everything were magic-based, then Im not entirely sure how well it would fit in, where as having actual technology that is suitable to the culture would.--Neithan Diniem 16:29, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I just sorta picture them living similar to the Sylvari; using nature and magic. Maybe it's just me, but I just can't picture them with giant steampunk machines billowing smoke and ash, that just seems too Charr-like. Or were you thinking a different style of technology? --GreatWallStr 03:44, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I was more along the lines of the clean steam power generated through heating and cooling of water to produce mechanical movement, similar to geothermal power plants. Such types of places could automate things that would be beneficial to the populace (lighting, water pumps). I'm not suggesting they get electricity, the movement could be old-school physical movement like gears and pistons, minimalist in their complexity. This would systematically set them apart from the Charr, as their tech is made through fire and is usually for war, and the Asura who use "electric" automation. Steampunk, you could call it I guess, but far cleaner and different from the steampunk you know. Meh, its an idea.--Neithan Diniem 05:04, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Oooh I get it! Sort of like a "Steampunk Atlantean" idea? Yeah, that WOULD work well! ^_^ The one thing that doesn't work atm, however, is the whole "underwater city" idea. I mean, ANet was saying they didn't want to have limits on time spent underwater... but wouldn't that feel odd, seeing a Charr living underwater with a bunch of Lyrens? I wonder if they could add some limit to "oxygen supply", but provide some sort of easily-accessible item (or consumable item) that allows them to remain underwater for extremely long periods of time. That way it makes sense, and it still lets characters remain underwater for as long as they want. --GreatWallStr 14:58, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Yea, that's the kind of steampunk I was referring to. Nothing complex or advanced, but still using the resources around them to better themselves. Also places where geothermal would be possible wouldn't be available everywhere, but only in a few places. As for the water breathing, maybe some racial effect or magical field cast around the cities allow players of non-Lyren races to stay there without the limitation, and upon leaving one of these cities they have the effect last for so long, allowing them to still do things while around city map areas. Lyrens however would have unlimited access to underwater areas, being its a racial effect. That, or the cities are bubbled up or something, but that removes some of the idea behind the lyrens' culture, having them live in an air environment.--Neithan Diniem 16:03, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I would like for them to be able to breathe underwater without limitation (after all, they DO live underwater). The idea for "magical bubbles" of sorts (the kinda that allows other beings to breathe underwater while inside it, or even within a radius of it). What do you think for Racial skills? One that I have given serious thought to is "Siren's Song", which is basically a melodic sonic scream that throws back enemies (an effect similar to Water Trident). Should they also have some sort of trance/stun skill that uses their hypnotic voices? --GreatWallStr 20:24, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I could see them somewhat following paragons in that sense, in that their voices have effects for both the party and for enemies, only more directly. Daze would be a good effect to use in several of their skills, and possibly bleeding (Piercing scream, causes bleeding from ears or w/e). Several mesmer-like skills would also fit in well. You should also look into if them being a new race calls for them to have any new weapons. I was thinking spears (not the throwing kind, but the piercing battle kind) or Trident-like weapons. Also, is there a new profession do you think with their release or no? Its just something to think about, not implement yet till more information of GW2 is given.--Neithan Diniem 23:33, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I was trying to think of some sort of new profession that could incorporate their culture, but most of their "attacks" seem to be summed up in Paragon and Mesmer, like you said. I was thinking of some sort of Mystic, due to all the hieroglyphic patterns that accent portions of the architecture. I remember Utopia was considering Chronomancers and Summoners, you don't think either of those would fit with Lyrens, do you? --GreatWallStr 23:48, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Might need to wait for the rest of the 7 GW2 professions to be released, in order to see how they function in a group and how you can incorporate anything lacking into a new profession.--Neithan Diniem 16:33, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Underwater Electricity? :D

The Egyptians had a form of "lighting", which basically used a coiled copper wire inside a jar made of a special mineral (that affected electrons, I think). So basically the copper wire could light up with electricity through some method of pouring certain conductive liquids into the jar. I was wondering if this sort of concept could be redone for the Lyrens. Basically it works like this: Geothermal energy creates electricity. This is done by using the steam to power a giant waterwheel contraption that is built within a large tunnel. This tunnel is encased in a particular mineral, and the waterwheel is coated in another; the two minerals together generate electricity from the rapid turning. The electricity then travels down wires that are encased in stone (so as to prevent the electricity from leaking out into the water), and power special magnetic crystals that are harvested from abyssal mines. These crystals, when an electrical charge is present, will absorb the electricity and produce light, illuminating the area around them. :D How's it sound? --GreatWallStr 00:53, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Well the concept is sound, for sure (and the history bit was cool). The idea for generating electricity basically has the waterwheel shaft have magnetic stones of uniform shape covering it, where as the tunnel walls would need a wire system (wont work otherwise). The current would be produced as the shaft was turned and collected by the wires. These wires would then feed into the crystals. The concept of electricity in Guild Wars might not be readily accepted well, unless you restrict its overall use as has been done with the Asura. Due to something, the use of this system should be limited, otherwise the Lyrens would be competing against the Asura for technological advancement. If the only thing you wanted was light, the ocean has many things that generate light naturally (lichens, creatures) that could be incorporated into the race's culture. If you want true technological power, I think it wouldn't be too well accepted. Most technological movement can be achieved through old school gears and wheels (Which could be hidden away, not openly displayed as in Charr society).

By the way, I remember an interesting little tidbit that was in the Riven game (Myst 2). There was a certain bacteria in the water that when heated, would move away from the heat source. It also pulled the water away, forming large, stable bubbles in the water. This allowed for tunnels and passages to be formed from air in the water (my favorite was a mine cart underwater passage between 2 isles. It might be an interesting thing to add to the Lyrens' cities, should you decide to have them go that way. The bacteria could be a native organism that needs a specific thing (food source, Crystal, or whatnot) to be present to survive, therefore restricting the area where these can be present. That added with heat, you could have parts of the Lyrens' cities be open to air.--Neithan Diniem 02:34, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

I see what you mean about using electricity. Yeah, perhaps the crystals should just glow naturally, and the geothermal engine would simply turn some gears or something... but what should the gears do?

Another idea was making giant honeycomb domes around the Lyren cities, that although they would still be filled with water, they would not suffer from violent currents and other such problems. However, that style of architecture seems neither Egyptian nor Greek, so I don't know how well it would work...

I love the idea about the bacteria, but wouldn't it be copying to use it in GW2? Also, how does the absence of water create an oxygen-rich bubble? o_O

Nonetheless, thank you so much for doing this with me. The Lyren culture as a whole has progressed quite a bit from that vague concept it was months ago. :D --GreatWallStr 02:52, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

How breathable air got into the bubble was never disclosed, and I don't think a vague use of something like this would fall under copyright. As for what the gears do, that would have to be up to you or to concept artists, you can just supply the idea of their using it. For the architecture, I don't know, Several Greek-like ideas popped in my head just now (one lasted an instant, but was strangely detailed: white stone accented with aqua blue tiles, a walkway with colorful plants on it looking down onto a city built into the sides of a ravine and lit with many cyan-like lights, a long, thin red glow (A vent?) at the bottom of the ravine). Generally, I think a "sunken Atlantis" architecture would work great, with a lot of round and domed buildings, though using simplistic shapes for accents and decoration. Pavilions, arches, walkways (not used for walking, but as a platform floor), largely open buildings, Arch-like supports holding up buildings from walls, floors, other buildings, or even roofs. A literal 3D underwater environment has so many possibilities, and with a lot of ruins and shipwrecks having been sunken to the ocean floors due to the world's movements, I can imagine untold amounts of possible things that could be down there. I sincerely hope the Guild Wars staff members look into the Lyrens as a possible future race. As a whole their idea would soundly fit in the lore and style of the GW2, and I personally would love to play as a Lyren. What good is having a game that is 50% underwater when there are 5 races to thrive on land, and nothing for the sea?--Neithan Diniem 03:37, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Wow, that idea sounds perfect. :O I totally see what you mean about the cyan-like lights. I know in Utopia they toyed around a lot with the idea of glowing crystals... I wonder if that could be reincorporated into Lyren culture. If anything, they could be worn to provide light for the Lyrens who travel through the abyssal regions. I've already incorporated some crystals in my (poorly-drawn) mesmer outfit for Lyrens. --GreatWallStr 13:59, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Sweet, If you make a drawing for each GW2 class as their released, I'm sure it would be beneficial to your idea. And the crystals seem like a great way to go, perhaps even having them need be charged through being in light and collecting it, or going back to your geothermal idea for the crystals.--Neithan Diniem 16:32, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

That'd be cool! Bioluminescent rocks are always lovely. ^^ Now to agriculture... if an entire race was living underwater, how would they "live"? They have cities, so they (the majority, at least) aren't nomadic. Should they hunt? Feed off of plantlife? Should they have large gardens of various undersea plants?

I had this weird idea the other day, which is oddly based off of underwater mines. You know how they have air in them to allow them to float, while a chain holds them to the ocean floor? This allows them to remain "suspended" in a single spot just below the surface, but high enough that boats can trigger them. This same thing could be reinterpreted into a use for farming. Large bubble-like domes could be suspended by a large pocked of air, but held down by some sort of cord. Because it is close to the surface, the dome would receive sunlight, allowing plants growing inside the dome to flourish. Of course, these domes would have to be low enough underwater not to be hit by large ships passing over. --GreatWallStr 15:24, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

The dome idea is interesting, and would be awesome I think. It could also be a way for the Lyrens to have surface-like environments under water, and they don't all have to be floating. For hunting, yea they could hunt larger sea life like whales, but smaller things like simple fish could be farmed. Either a large net-like cage could be constructed by the Lyrens and fish placed into this cage, or a "bubble trap" system could be used. This consists of pipes with holes in it being placed in a square shape on the ground, and air is pumped through the pipe (giving a need for a pumping system, utilizable through "currentmills" and the like). The escaping bubbles keep fish inside the "cage" as they will not swim through them (they don't like bubbles). The top is a net that is held up by poles. This system however only works in low-current locations. As for plant life, seaweeds and the like could all be "farmed" on the ocean floor. Reefs and such formations themselves are rich in plants that could be used for food too. As for livestock, creatures could be developed for the Lyrens that could serve that purpose.

And for bio-luminescent plants and lichens, I think a similar appearance as some of the plants on Pandora from Avatar would be good reference material for these underwater plants. The plant life on Pandora is alien enough as to be great for the ref. Having plants that react to touch and current light would be great.--Neithan Diniem 17:47, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

"Lions Arch's 1079AE Delivary of Glow sticks Disappears mysteriously in boat crash, These glowsticks can still be seen from shores today under the light of the red moon" --Neil2250 , Render Lord 17:53, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, we don't want to go TOO far with bioluminescence, since Perfect World really over-did that with the tideborn (having practically every new creature and plant glow). But it would be fun to have SOME sort of dim lights :3 --GreatWallStr 01:14, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Wasn't meaning that we make as many plants bioluminescent as they did, but do make the ones that are look like some of the pandoran plants, or use them for references. They did a good job of it, but what they did is not what is exactly needed for the Lyrens.--Neithan Diniem 06:42, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Lyren Ruins

We know that after Zhaitan awoke, he brought up the entire sunken peninsula with him in a violent instance of thunderous waves and earthquakes. What if a Lyren city had been built on the sunken peninsula, and now remains in ruins on the surface? --GreatWallStr 13:59, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

It seems plausible, also the waves would have destroyed any city near Orr that wasn't protected in some way, like a Ravine or something.--Neithan Diniem 16:28, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

lyrens map

i editted the normal map of tyria to become this idea:[1] its the map of the 7 capital city's f the lyrens. the purple dot is the starters capital city with the 3 academy's.

i carefully chosen the 7 dots, the purple dot is under lion's arch because i think a major quest would be: retrieve communication with the other races, beginning with human. the 2 dots at the upper side of the map are 2 final city's at the end of the storyline, that would be a new area (inc. the river that looks like the nile) for exemple,a human can reach the area by 'swiming' down that river. i hope you like the idea of the map.

kind regards.

Frozen_Ice_prince --Frozen Ice Prince 17:46, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Got a 404 error on that Link, might just want to post the image itself in a thumbnail. An image like you described would be great reference for creating the Lyrens territory when the map for GW2 is released.--Neithan Diniem 17:50, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

this should do it ^^

Abaddon?

First of all, I like the idea!

- Did you draw that yourself?

Anyway, I don't think Abaddon is their right creator, you present them with beauti and love. Abaddon don't have either! I think they should be created by another god, or maybe they should be godless, evolved from a fish..?

I don't think this will come in the first Guild Wars 2, maybe in a Expension. I've seen quite many Races ideas, none where good or unique. You made them both quite short and fast. I see the map over here with ideas for Towns. I have to disagree with the locations, and amount of Towns. Something like this (Picture of Region / Towns) would be way better. (Even it's all to early to make maps like that!)

Names of towns and regions should be up to you, User:GreatWallStr, or the creators of Guild Wars 2!

Ideas:

• Name their gods. (They can't see Abaddon as their god?)
• Give them some rituals and life styles.
• Make a few unique working tasks, like making underwaters stars or deadly wepons made by pure water and magic.
• Present their life over earth. (They should be unable to walk, but use magic and/or water for transport)
• Give them a reason for fighting with/against other races.

If there will be six races, this should absolutly be the six'th!

Posted by: User:Eleljrk

The Idea for Abaddon for their god came from Abaddon being the god of water and secrets. Therefor he makes a race of water dwellers in secret. Also the race was I think originally planned for an expansion, due to the release for GW2 being too close to throw in a new race now. They can walk, as they have feet as humans do (Abaddon crafted them similar to humans). The map above is a fan's representation, the real locations of the cities are entirely up to Anet. They dont have a reason to fight other races, because they are newly discovering them to begin with. GreatWallStr put a lot of good ideas into them, you just gotta dig into the talk page above to find what and why.--Neithan Diniem 00:12, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Abaddon is a jealous god, and seeing as how the other gods are openly worshiped by humanity, I figured it would be a bit fitting for him to grow envious. Why try to persuade humanity to join him, when he could create his own, "better" version? He made them powerful to be his servants, he made them beautiful to be the envy of other creatures, he made them gifted to be the envy of the other gods (Whose other creation - humans - had only struggled with war and tyranny).

I'm wondering if, to also make them more unique (and avoid the "Tideborn look") they should have 4 eyes and maybe a slit underneath each column to appear like a closed eye; this would be in the image of Abaddon and his Margonites, after all. --GreatWallStr 22:48, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

btw: I just realized that technically Guild Wars had fins on each side of the head before Perfect World... or at least finlike projections. ;D --GreatWallStr 22:51, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah ha, true that be. I never noticed. I think the idea of four eyes might be a little too outlandish for many players, i dont know. Perhaps the Lyrens could have tattoo like lines around their eyes instead of four eyes + the 2 slits. That would be a "ritualistic" thing for them, perhaps? Small forms of bodily mutilations in the face and tattoos have always been ritualistic parts of many of humanity's cultures anyways, why not here? Id love to see a concept for a four or six eyed Lyren never the less, just to compare their beauty. Who knows? maybe Im wrong and they really can be quite beautiful.--Neithan Diniem 03:29, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Whew! I finally finished it! :) Here you go. (Ps. yes, I know I suck at drawing D: ) --GreatWallStr 15:59, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I couldn't hold a candle for that!

This race suggestion has evolved so much since the last time i checked! - J.P.Talk 16:24, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Wow, now that is what I was talkin about. Great work with the concept man! I honestly don't see how Arenanet cant be considering this Idea when you practically are throwing it at them.--Neithan Diniem 16:44, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

A thought just hit me, How do they blink their eyes? From the centrally, laterally, normaly, or perhaps mirrored opposite (top eyes blink "down", bottom eyes blink "up")?--Neithan Diniem 16:52, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, I was wondering if they could perhaps have eyes similar to that of other aquatic creatures such as penguins, who have regular eyelids (that blink like ours) and a second "eyelid", which is a nictitating membrane that covers their eyes when they are in water (it's see-through), and the nictitating membrane blinks across the eye (from the outer side of the face inwards, I think). --GreatWallStr 17:14, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Concept progression

Here are some of the pictures I've had. Over time, the concept for Lyrens has changed, and as such so have my sketches for them. xD

When we began leaning away from the original concept of Lyrens (due to Perfect World's "tideborn"), I began thinking of ways we could make them not only act differently, but look different too. Eventually, Neithen and I decided on a smoother forehead, as well as multiple gill slits.

Thanks to Neithen's suggestions for the ability to breathe both on land and underwater, Lyrens are now biologically, as well as anatomically correct.

Lyrens have a series of fins and finlets located all along their body, and these help them swim faster than the other races.

When I first began drawing their architecture, I had a sort of whimsical Atlantean theme going on with it, but soon that seemed a little over-elaborate for being based on the simplistic artistic styles of ancient Greece and Egypt. I'm sure things like this could fit in SOMEWHERE, but I don't know how well they'd fit in for the majority of the architecture.

Lyrens also grow plants and small farms, but these plants also require sunlight. To solve this problem, they built a series of floating domes that allowed the plants to grow in sunlight without having to be in "Unchii" (A common language word that literally translates to "sky ocean" or "ocean in sky"). Prior to contact with the surface world, many superstitious Lyrens believed that to enter Unchii meant to become cursed, due to the fact that many who surfaced never returned (Little did they realize the missing Lyrens were victims of experimentation by an Asuran hermit who studied sea creatures, and was fascinated by these fishlike creatures).

One of the Lyren cities is surrounded by a large dome, due to the fact that there are many violent currents that pass through regularly, endangering the citizens. This dome protects against the currents, and is constructed of a type of glasslike material made from smelting a type of sand crystal in the heat of the abyssal lava flows.

Lyren clothing is very streamline and made of a lightweight silk that is gathered from a type of spider that makes its bubble nest in coral reefs. Accented with energy crystals, the outfit is not only for comfort, but useful for lighting in the depths of the sea.

Sooo what do you all think? :) --GreatWallStr 19:05, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Woah. i love it :O, though, the male lyren head is a bit.. abnormal,is it not?--Neil2250 19:07, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Hehe yes, a bit. These were just concept pieces that led up to the final result ^_^ Some of them are still in the concept, and others were sort of stepping stones in the evolution of this idea --GreatWallStr 19:12, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

^_^, i mean, thier heads dont need to be normal, just not as puffy as that :P --Neil2250 19:13, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Are you talking about the first picture, with the frontal lobe? That was just one idea, taking into account Beluga whales. I was just trying to portray different options. ^^ --GreatWallStr 19:44, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Think Ill mention this first: there is a grammatical error in the Society section, where it says "...and their naturally youth makes them..." Might want to either remove the "ly" from natural or revert it to "youthful appearance." Now to the awesome.... I love seeing all the new concepts, These open a whole new look into your previous ideas. Seeing the first picture, The idea of different bodily structures, like the enlarged frontal lobe, could very well play into different cultures of the Lyrens around the world. You could have bone ridges, alterations in fin size and shape, and skin colorations. Having a series of "set" cultures of Lyrens would be amazing to see (male+female views and all). The second pic is a great representation of the breathing structures, I hardly think I could easily manage to do better, though perhaps one day Ill try to visualize my own concept for comparison. The chest cavity and organs look a little ragged, however, but they still clearly get the idea across. Love the fins pic, Your making me want to draw some Lyrens now! The architecture pic looks like a good start. Finding the overall "style" and distributing it among several building concepts would be the overall best goal to go for. The floating farms are great, really getting the human world farm feel for the underwater culture. You might want to change the way their anchored to the ground, however. Maybe go for a three-chain anchor instead of a singular one, that will provide stability in tides and currents. Are the farms "submerged" within the domes, or are they fully air-breathing plants? Having more air environments underwater will strengthen the idea for the development of their dual-breathing organs. Love the dome city on the rocks, reminds me of a space colony in a ways XD. The last pic is truly a gem among the others though. Seeing your character in a conceptual garment is amazing, the garb reminds me partially of a toga, in a way. Really matches the cultural architecture you have going. The only thing I think Id change would be their garments should not restrict their fins, as they use those for general swimming. It would be like wearing a ridiculous pair of shoes that restrict your ability to walk. Other than that its great to see how its developing. This single suggestion is the most developed idea in the feedback section of the wiki, Id know, cause Ive read most of all of the ideas posted here. Gah! Must draw something now!--Neithan Diniem 20:39, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm loving this... I hope Anet incorporates something! One thing, though: Lyrens sometimes remind me of Zoras. -- Large 21:38, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually, when I was beginning to rework them, I was almost tempted to base some of their changes on Zoras, but decided against it so as to have it inspired directly by nature, rather than by someone else's work. ^^ That's why they had a frontal lobe in one pic, instead of a lateral lobe like a Zora. --GreatWallStr 21:46, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I couldn't help myself, I had to draw a concept of this today. If I can get my archaic scanner to work Ill post it. It follows a bit more of my own idea of the Lyrens than the concepts you have here, but its just for comparison, and perhaps a way to better convey my ideas a bit. I cant believe I actually drew something that looks good... for once in ages O.O --Neithan Diniem 02:05, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Cool! I can't wait! ^_^ --GreatWallStr 02:16, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent)

There it is ^^. Touched it up a wee bit due to my scanner not being the best in the world... Pretty much is similar in most respects to your designs above, only yea, two eyes. Cant really figure how to draw four or more yet. Her pupils are a little unique, similar in shape to an octopus's eye. Her fins are a sort of multi-membrane fin, where the single membrane has a layered appearance (looks he same on both sides, yea), and they are decorated with a three stripe pattern between each of the spines which are just a darker skin color.. Her ear fins in particular have an integrated ear inside its makeup, similar to a small "elvish" ear but with a fin growing around it. I added another row of gill slits to looks closer to other aquatic animals, also. I love how her ear turned out, I can't get enough of it myself ^^.

Took about 2 hours to do this. God I haven't been this focused to draw something in months. Hope it gives you some more ideas!--Neithan Diniem 02:57, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I love it! I personally had pictured the gills with a smoother look to them, but tbh I think your version looks really good also; I wonder if ANet would allow both designs (similar to how Sylvari have multiple skin designs). That would add for lots of variety. :) I mean, just as humans look different from region to region, why not have Lyrens look slightly different from region to region? And I LOVE how the ear is integrated into the fin; it looks really good. :) I also think the extra row of gill slits looks more realistic, and has a nice look to it. ^^ The only reason I didn't put gill slits into this picture is because I haven't actually finished the picture lol. --GreatWallStr 03:12, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I also flipped the gill layers around, so they stack the other way. The way they are in the above pics would push/pull water in from the front of the Lyren, which if you think about it isn't too appealing (unless you wanted it that way for blowing water in people's faces XD). The way I did it would push/pull the water from behind. I also love the idea for different "species" of Lyrens, tried to say that above but didn't do a good job of it XD. Perhaps use three or so different aquatic animals to base their design off of, but keep them pretty similar. Could also draw out different fin designs or even skin appearances on a "blank" character pic, itll give you more visual variations to show off ;). Oh, also, I looked around online and found several pics of mermaid type characters that have gills on the sides, similar to the Lyrens. They may make for some good reference images. When I get more time Im going to try to draw a male's face, then a full body reference for both a male and female (hopefully), though I might put a little of my own ideas in them too for more comparison for you.--Neithan Diniem 03:21, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Wow! Yeah, flipping the gill layers was smart, I had just slapped them on without thinking. xD Thank you SO much for all this help! :O With all this stuff, I'm sure ANet will notice! ^_^ --GreatWallStr 03:31, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Haha, this page sure should get their attention with how long it is, you might need to make an archive soon. You'd be the first to need to archive a user feedback talk page XD --Neithan Diniem 03:36, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that you flipped the gill layers around (they both face downwards). Regardless, gills don't suck or blow anything. :P Once I get my tablet working, I might try to do a male lyren since this is kinda interesting. :D -~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) 03:45, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Flipped from forward to rear facing, look at the flap-like layers protruding from the gill slits. And yea, gills are used to force water through them so as to push water over the inner structures, allowing for breathing. The Lyrens have the nasal slits and mouths for inhaling water and their two gill sets for exhaling. The neck slits are used less than the chest gills, as those are more powerful and efficient due to size and number of slits. The neck gills are also used for underwater communication by forcing water in and out of them. Its all in the above posts about how the dual-breathing system for the Lyrens works, and I was the guy that partially helped design it. Seeing another person's representation of the Lyrens would be good, it allows for more comparison for finalizing ideas.--Neithan Diniem 03:53, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh that confused me, I keep forgetting this doesn't have to be like real fish. Photoshop is almost done downloading. :D -~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) 17:00, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Male Lyren

Tada ^_^ I figured between the female and male, I could represent differences in eyes. The female has near-identical eyes, while the male shows the possibility of eyes differing in shape between upper and lower. --GreatWallStr 14:29, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Unchii and Design

The lore you have invested for the world above the waters is great, however, Ive come to the conclusion that it poses a problem biologically. So far, the Lyrens have been developed to be basically a fully underwater people. By this I mean the use of air for breathing is not mentioned untill they rise above the waves. It strikes me as odd that their bodies would posses the dual-breathing system then if they basically developed into a pure underwater culture. Perhaps the Unchii could 1) be a recent development for the Lyrens, such as when Orr was sunk, the catastrophe scarred the culture and made them fear the lands above, 2) Unchii could refer to the mainlands, not the entirety of the environment above the waters. This way the Lyrens could also inhabit coral islands that are above the waves, though these lands would be relatively small and secluded from the mainland travel routs, 3) Though the Lyrens are underwater most of the time, their buildings could incorporate air environments. The dome structures could easily be developed to have open-water entrances at the lower levels, and the dome would hold an air pocket environment inside of it. Same goes for underwater caverns and caves, these too could have been drained out and made into an air environment. 4) the Asuran Hermit posing such fear in a whole culture seems a bit far fetched, perhaps if it were a creature or even a krew of asuran that were causing this fear? It just seems odd that the Lyrens would so fear the Unchii when their bodies are designed to dwell within it as well as beneath the waves (perhaps you should make a name for the waters for the Lyrens to compare with Unchii).

Secondly is their design. The four eye thing can work, I'm just having difficulty wrapping my head around how their eye structures would be shaped and work. But if the Margonites can have 6 eyes, then certainly the Lyrens can have four. Their nasal structures need a slight tweak. The slits in their "nose" should open downward, not upward, otherwise when a Lyren would breath air, they would be effectively blowing in their eyes (think of sneezing...). Simple change there that wouldn't alter anything visually really. Their fins that are going down their backs pose a problem, as how would they wear simple clothes like underwear? In a MMO where you can strip your character down, your going to need this type of clothing. The back fins prevent this from being possible, so perhaps the fins could end at the base of the neck, where it joins the torso. After the shoulder blades the Dorsal fin could be there. A design like this will freely allow for such garments of modesty. Another thing being is tails, do the Lyrens have them? I don't think you ever decided in the above posts. Personally I can see them having a tail just fine, and it could be useful and interesting in armor and clothing designs. However I can also see the point of why they shouldn't have one, as it complicated the model. Having a tail or not, it still works as a race none the less. The fins on their hips look off, due to their size, If I ever get around to drawing the full body concept I might doodle some variations for comparison. Hands and feet, are they webbed or no?

Also, thought up how the Lyrens might have barbs in the fins on their arms. Gona keep thinking about it though. Throwing the idea out to see if you'd like it. This post was just me pointing out things that need more clarification I think, as we and others have offered alot of ideas that some were not fully decided upon.--Neithan Diniem 15:56, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Wow! Yeah, you make a good point about Unchii. Perhaps it should be the mainland, instead of the sky. I see what you mean about the Asuran, perhaps a Krew WOULD be more likely, though perhaps they should all live independently from the rest of the Asurans (or else they would already know about Lyrens at the start of GW2). Yeah, the slits would probably need to open downward to allow breathing without any face-shooting Lol. The fins along the back were just a random suggestion; I personally don't know where all their fins and finlets should go, and I suppose ultimately it's up to ANet. I think your suggestion works, though, just having it end at the base of the neck.

I had never really planned on them having tails, seeing as how I didn't want them to have much in common with Draenei or Na'vi. I could see how it could work, but I know that any similarity it has to any popular game or movie, then those fans will blame ANet of copying (even if it isn't... stupid Wowtards). xD Sooo yeah, if they DID have a tail, I actually pictured it looking a little similar to Vaporion's tail, but obviously less cartoony. As for hands and feet, I'd rather they not be webbed, so as to maintain some close similarities between humans and Lyrens (which are based off of humans). Also, it seems far too often any water-dweller has webbed hands and feet. --GreatWallStr 16:17, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I can try to draw my designs having the fins as my mer-race would have them, then you or Anet can use that as a reference. Same with the tail. The tail wouldn't be a thin little lion's tail thing, but be something that matches the race. Webbed hands and feet I can see how It may effect how well some animations might work, how could they fire a gun or wear rings or whatnot if their fingers are all webbed together?--Neithan Diniem 16:23, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

"how could they fire a gun or wear rings or whatnot if their fingers are all webbed together?" WOW that is a really good point! xD I hadn't even thought of that Lol. The idea for a tail should be able to work in gameplay, though, seeing as we already have another race that has a long tail. :) --GreatWallStr 16:24, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Their phalanges could only be partly webbed, more webbed than a human's. At most to the first knuckle. It would be kinda odd to have fins and live underwater, but suddenly stop having webbing at some of the most useful points (there's a good reason it's far too often). :P As far as a tail goes, it could get pretty awkward since they already have legs to move themselves around. -~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) 17:17, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm... yes, perhaps the first joint of the phalanges... I DO want them to be very fast swimmers, but I don't think they should look overly webbed and such. A little bit probably wouldn't hurt (and could help increase their swimming speed), but if it's too excessive it may be a little too stereotypical. --GreatWallStr 17:43, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

A tail wouldn't get in the way of their legs, They would just use a slightly wider stance when kicking their legs to accommodate for the tail. With the number of fins they have, I can easily see them adopting a dolphin-like swimming stance, where they undulate their bodies to move instead of flailing around like most people do. Professional swimmers have been using that swimming stance for years to great effect. Now add in webbed hands and feet to increase speed and tilt control, Cranial and dorsal, Hip, arm, and leg fins for tilt and direction control, and a tail for major speed increase and direction control. The Lyrens, even without a tail, would be highly maneuverable and quick in the water. With a tail they simply become more aquatic appearing and a bit more believable for their athletic swimming capabilities.--Neithan Diniem 18:12, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

But a tail is kind of redundant and also very stereotypical which seems to be something you're avoiding. :\ -~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) 18:54, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I've actually not played many games at all that had tails in general on their characters, let alone an aquatic. Most mer races are either humanoid without tails and can change into a proper mer form (Tideborn from PW) or they follow the leg + tail example. There is little variation unless you use other aquatic animals to base your off of, like squid, octopus, jellyfish, shark, orca, etc.. If your saying tails are too trademarked then your just being ridiculous. At least we can do is put up concepts with a tail and see what it looks like before we start debating if it looks too stereotypical. We have to see what it indeed looks like first.--Neithan Diniem 19:10, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Here you go! :)

I actually think the tail looks rather nice. And I think I forgot to mention this; I had pictured Lyrens as having long legs in particular. Not only does it help with swimming, but it makes them a little different from humans by having different proportions. Lyrens are slender nonetheless. :3 The second picture shows their slender bodies, and emphasizes the streamline look. --GreatWallStr 21:21, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Now you've gone and done it, I wana draw more now XD. Them having long legs is perfect for them, it makes the Lyrens that much more unique. The tail might need a bit of tweeking, as the base of the tail fins looks too thin to be useful for swimming. Ill try to draw something up if I can manage. Do you have a DeviantART account or something that you're posting these on? You're a pretty good artists.--Neithan Diniem 02:02, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I didn't mean to make it THAT thin, but it gets the image across at least. ^^ My main focus was on the end of the tail, how I said it was inspired by Vaporeon's tail, but with unique differences. And No, I don't have Deviantart... though I really should get one, shouldn't I? xD --GreatWallStr 02:18, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I don't know how I've done it, but Ive almost completed a really good looking character reference sheet for a frontal view of a Female Lyren in a prone position. Her tail and hip fins have been adapted to a bit of my own style, and her undergarments are something reminiscent of a bathing suit. I have her right arm and leg to do, several important details to put on, and I'm still working out how to do her face with four eyes (did a good job once, but the head ended up being too small... >_<). It also will show how her gills are positioned. When I finish Ill try to do a side and back view in order to show the other details that wont make it in this one due to the angle. I'm amazed at how inspirational this idea has been for me, normally I cant think of anything to draw. Now here I am doing better than I ever have before. All I need to get down now are poses other than prone or profile. I'll post the pic as soon as I finish it tomorrow ^^.--Neithan Diniem 05:11, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Awesome! ^_^ I can't wait to see it! :) --GreatWallStr 11:49, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the tail doesn't look bad at all. :D Make sure the tail fin is lateral like the fins going down the tail, though. Oh, and you should make a dA account! -~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) 16:20, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Wait, Lateral? I was picturing it horizontal, since Lyrens have to do a dolphin kick to swim. The only reason it works for fish to do side to side is because all of their joins are designs to do that; knees, feet, hips, etc aren't designed for that. o.o --GreatWallStr 17:35, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, otherwise it doesn't make sense to have lateral fins on the tail. :P Btw, that's why I said adding the tail would be awkward, but their legs could be built differently than humans'. -~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) 18:09, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

But... it works just fine if it is built like a dolphin's tail (though with artistic liberties hehe). You see, Lyrens swim by doing a dolphin kick; as they do this, their tail moves up and down with their legs, but is more powerful, and helps accelerate them. :) --GreatWallStr 18:11, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Types of Lyrens

I was wondering how many different types of Lyrens we should have. I mean, They wouldn't be TOO spread out, seeing as how they were made to be near Abaddon while he was still in power. I was thinking it would range from Tropical Lyrens, Deep Sea Lyrens, and Abyssal Lyrens. Perhaps these two could be Tropical Lyrens, given their bright colored hair and light complexions. Deep Sea Lyrens would live out in the ocean, and could possibly have darker or different colors. Abyssal Lyrens, however, might be interesting to try to design, since they could have some influence from bioluminescent fish... what do you think? I could even try to design Symbols representing the different factions... sort of like the human kingdoms? --GreatWallStr 16:07, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Numbers-wise, I think Arenanet is going for 4 variations of each race... maybe some that live(d) near the Ring of Fire and that big fiery island north of Maguuma (Volcanic Lyren?). Just a thought. :P -~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) 16:26, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, that COULD work, since I couldn't quite figure out which one would be spiny (like Neithen's awesome pic); would you like yours to be a volcanic Lyren, Neithen? :3 --GreatWallStr 16:31, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

So, how does this sound?

Halishine is the city of the Tropical Lyrens. Built in the center of a huge coral reef, Halishine is home to hundreds of colorful species of fish, and also contains the rare Crimsonnest Spider, which makes its home near the coral polyps. Its bubble nest allows it to reside underwater, even though it is an air-breathing creature. Its silk is harvested and woven to make lightweight and comfortable clothing for the citizens of Halishine. Because it is so close to the surface, Halishine experiences regular day/night patterns, and during the day the sun's rays dance across the entire city.

Osdonia is located on the side of a deep-sea abyss, and as such is home to the Abyssal Lyrens. Osdonia features 7 city districts, each built on many levels. The levels are built in a double helix pattern that is intertwined with the cliffside, allowing this city to literally be "perched" upon the rocks. This city was first constructed by merchants who found the rapid currents directly above the abyss to be perfect for travel between Halishine and Nalia, and soon Osdonia became a bustling city with a thriving population. Marine life commonly migrates along the currents directly above Osdonia, and the annual migrations help the Lyrens keep track of the seasons. Due to the depth, Osdonia does not experience "night" and "day", but is lit by bioluminescent rocks and algae.

Nalia is located out in the middle of the open ocean, resting upon the sea floor, and as such is home to the Oceanic Lyrens. The ocean currents in this area make a large circle around Nalia, allowing quick travel throughout the area. Because of this, the area around Nalia is used much by farmers, and it is not uncommon to see floating domes all around Nalia. These domes are used to elevate the plants to a point where they get adequate sunlight, allowing them to flourish. The rock near Nalia is mostly limestone and marble, and as such most of the city is built from this type of stone.

I haven't thought of what the Volcanic city should be like, since (as my friend Cyan mentioned) volcanoes can often quake the land both above and under the water, and could cause large buildings to collapse regularly. --GreatWallStr 17:32, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, there are temples in Hawaii, so it's definitely possible. The quakes aren't that bad on a regular basis, and different volcanoes have varying levels of activity. -~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) 18:17, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Here you go! My pride and joy right now. The fins are now much larger, and positioned correct. The hip fins are located slightly forward from her sides, and her wrist fins are shown (the left one is behind her arm, since her hand is positioned prone. The right fin is curled around because her hand is relaxed). Her cranial fin looks a little off for now, but it follows the same idea as my previous pic. Her tail is a horizontal design, but (not shown) it has lateral fins protruding out, smaller on the bottom and a larger fin on the top. Her dorsal fin would start at the bottom of the shoulder blades and continue till above her waistline. Hands and feet are slightly webbed, reaching only the first knuckle. Gills are less detailed, as they are missing the layered effects, and the fins aren't as detailed as my previous pic. Finally got a four-eye face to look closely feminine, but overall the character looks a little macho... >_< I went for a bathing suit type of undergarment due to that probably being what they'd wear anyhow.

Didn't get the leg fins drawn, they wouldn't show up anyways, but they would follow the same design as her wrist fins do, being slightly off to the side (I really should have drawn them... Might fix it later)

As for the types of Lyrens, I can see a shark-like Lyren (with a lateral fin design perhaps, It could easily work) for either tropical or volcanic (they would fit well in volcanic areas due to their aggressive demeanor, and could use natural caves and hearty structures for architecture), an orca or deep blue/black-type for deep sea Lyren, your two for either tropical or mid-sea Lyren. My design could fit for a mid sea design, or if you make them quite colorful, a tropical. Tropical Lyrens should be particularly exotic, flowing fins and particularly thin design. Deep sea should look a bit more hearty, more muscular. Fins on all should be designed to be able to go around armor, meaning no lines of fins stretching along an arm or the like. Armor can then be made that goes over fins , such as a blade-like ridge for the cranial fins or a cloth attachment (Piercing the membrane on the fins could be a form of "body piercing" and also allow for armor and the like).--Neithan Diniem 18:27, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Wow, great job! Especially on the hands and feet, those are tough to get right. I was thinking that yours looked more like the Deep Sea Lyren as well. :P -~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) 18:34, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Nah, a deep sea Lyren would not have membrane-styled fins, their fins would need to be more traditionally styled solid fins like whales and dolphins have. Otherwise swimming in very deep water would be more difficult in theory, so a solid fin would fit their location better I think.--Neithan Diniem 18:41, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I would try to remove them from mammals and say solid fins like sharks/rays, which would give them a more... "fishy" look. Their gills are already shark/ray-like as well, so it fits. -~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) 18:47, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

O M G LOVE IT!!!! :D SO awesome! ^_^ I too thought it looked a little deep-sea-ish, but that may be because of the fin on the top of the head. Anyway, it looks great! :3 --GreatWallStr 19:04, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

And yes, the two I've done I'm thinking of being Tropical Lyrens, and I'm going to draw 6 more headshot pictures, 3 female and 3 male, of each different type. --GreatWallStr 19:25, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

"with a lateral fin design perhaps, It could easily work)" Wait, how would a lateral fin design work well? I mean, it wouldn't mesh up with their joints, and I know Sparky said it could easily be fixed, but these characters have to be able to walk on land; they can't have a large tail that doesn't bend up or down, or they wont be able to move very easily. But I like the way the tail is shaped in your picture; that way would work fine with movement on land. Oh, and if you meant the dorsal fin, as opposed to the tail itself, then yes, I think that could work fine. ^_^ But we don't want them to be like TOO many creatures, or else they become less like Lyrens and more like an alliance of sea creatures, if that makes sense. Perhaps we should stick to a universal design for all Lyrens to have, then just deviate a little bit here and there in each design (such as adjusting fin thickness, tail pattern, etc). --GreatWallStr 20:34, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

By the time you reach the tail part, structurally its just an extension of the spine surrounded by muscle. You could flex it in many different directions. The reasoning one would have to choose which way would be dependent on their fin design. If the tail has horizontal fins, you would use the up and down motion. If the tail had lateral fins, you would use the side to side motion. In general though, you could easily make a up and down moving fin that still is reminiscent of sharks. The fins' fingers on my concept above are all "foldable," meaning they can stretch and relax at the will of the character. While on land and the like the fins would generally be relaxed down, closer to the body. While in the water the fins would by flayed out to provide for the swimming benefits. The tail is no different. Not only is it not long enough to drag on the ground, but the fins can fold closer to the main tailbone to keep it out of the way of the legs. Same goes for the arm and leg fins, they would fold close to the body.

The way I see it, you keep the basic Lyren model in all the variations. For the tropical, go for a bit of a thinner body type with longer, more exotic fins and colorations, think of how angelfish and tropical fish have flowy fins and tails. For the mid-sea Lyrens, a general design would suffice perfectly with more simplistic fin designs. Deep sea would be darker-toned Lyrens with non exotic fins, meaning no "layered" fin membranes like in my above pics, but a single uninterrupted membrane. For the volcanic Lyrens I can see tones of grey and maybe even brown for coloration. Fins would be the same as deep sea Lyrens, along with general "shark-like" distinctions in fin shape and skin markings.--Neithan Diniem 21:03, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I finished my lame concept art, but it won't upload. -.- It keeps saying "The file you uploaded is blank, maybe you typed it wrong when you were choosing it off of a list." -~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) 22:06, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Hey Neithen, I used your picture in the article, I hope that's all right with you. :) It's really awesome! Also, I was thinking about their racial skills, and wouldn't it be cool if their fins could expand for a skill or action, similar to how lizards puff up. Of course, it wouldn't be that dramatic, nor that ugly, but still.... for instance, the skill "Siren's Song", I picture them take a deep breath, then stamp a foot on the ground as they release the scream, puffing up a bit as well. Having things like this for their racial skills might make their fins even more lifelike. Another would be with the racial skill "propulsion"; when they suddenly boost themselves forward, they could fold back some of their fins to make themselves more hydrodynamic for that moment, then as they begin to lose momentum they could open up their fins again and begin swimming again as normal. What do you think? --GreatWallStr 02:42, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Id be honored to have my pic on the suggestion page ^^. If I make any more that you like you are welcome to implement them as well.

Well in general on land they would be constantly flexing their fins, just like people twiddle their thumbs or fidget. Id think their fins would somewhat display their emotions; when their nervous they would be twitchy, sad or shy they would pull them back, or angry or scared they would flay them up more. When their in battle I can easily see them flaying their fins to puff up and make themselves look more ferocious. Skills that utilize their fins in general would be great, as siren's song would most definitely have them flay out. For their propulsion they wouldn't lay their fins down that much, as they mostly use their fins for controlling their tilt and angle. They could however adapt an undulating dolphin-like swimming similar to what is used by Olympian swimmers. Instead of swinging their hands and feet they would become stiff with their arms in point ahead of them and use their feet and tail for the general thrust, along with the "jet" they get from their gills (arms up in order to let the gills be un-obstructed).

I also had an idea for barbs in their wrist fins that could be used for combat. Poison and the like would fit most perfectly in such a race. Barbs would be small hook-like spines that would be inside the outer fin finger, and could be pushed out when in combat (similar to how a porcupine raises their quills or like the barbs of some manta rays). These would need to be touch-range type skills, however, as shooting barbs out would seem ridiculous I think. They would flair their wrist fins more so than normal, and do a glancing punch move that would drag their fin across the enemy, inlaying the barbs. These can also be used for bleeding. "Tail slap" might be a funny skill type to think about too, refine it into a valid and serious skill. I can see them do a spin move and either trip or clothesline an enemy with their tails. A blinding skill could be made, if the Lyrens could somehow spit or shoot ink at an enemy. But that might just end up seeming nasty to spit black gunk at an enemy for a civilized and noble people like the Lyrens XD.--Neithan Diniem 03:05, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

That's a really good thought about the fins and their movement, and I also see what you mean about using them and the tail to steer when using propulsion. About Tail whip: We know for a fact that your first 5 skills are decided based on what you are holding, I imagine if you aren't holding anything, then those skills may be "punch" or "kick" or something of the sort. If this be the case, I think it would be excellent to replace one of those melee skills with a tail whip/slap, seeing as how when a creature fights, they tend to use all of their strengths (and I imagine a muscular tail would be a bit of a strength lol). I also think the barbed fins is a good idea, and would make for a great skill! So, which exactly should it do? Cause bleeding, or cause poison? These ideas are really good! :O --GreatWallStr 03:38, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Well poison was my first suggestion, but there could easily be 2 skills, or let it change based on circumstances. Perhaps a charge or adrenaline feature? As itself, the skill would be a "barb scrape," dealing damage. Charged partially it could deal bleeding as you deal a deeper cut, and the next stage could be damage, bleeding, and poison. If their seperate skills you could have a "paralyzing poison" type skill that could stun the enemy or the like. There are alot of possibilities. I definitely think a tail skill or two should be made for racial skills, but if there are these basic skills for when not wielding anything, a general tail attack would fit in perfectly. Longer recharge would limit its use ideally. Many fish fight with their tails, dealing quite painful slaps and scratches with them.--Neithan Diniem 03:55, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Went and updated my drawing of the Lyren. I added in the leg fins, as well as redefined several places for better clarity. Her cranial ridge is more defined, and several other places have been corrected for symmetry. Ill be posting it over the other image as soon as I get it scanned and edited to remove any fuzziness to the image.--Neithan Diniem 19:34, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

2 eyes

i don't like the idea of 4 eyes... why don't they have 2 eyes?

frozen ice prince

The Lyrens were designed to be beings made by Abbadon because he was jealous of the 5 Gods and their race. Since they are based on both humans and on Abbadon himself, the Lyrens have four eyes ([six+two]/two = four). Its also just to make them unique from the other five races. Its just a concept, Arenanet has the final say-so in anything should they decide to use it.--Neithan Diniem 17:11, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

ah that explains everything without searching in the discussion pannel

frozen ice prince

Its actually posted in the suggestion. Glad I could clear it up however.--Neithan Diniem 19:37, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

it wont make it

i hate to be rough, but this thing came out of nowhere. all the announced races for GW2 have an actual history. it would be a sick move to change everything

This race has a history and doesn't require a change in any others, what are you saying? Also, sign your comments.--Neithan Diniem 03:08, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm saying that he should leave all the race creations to the game creators. he spewed something out from his brain thats completely rediculous. He created something out of the void, is what im trying to say. He basically "worked off something that isnt his." Like giving Abbadon a secret love/compassion/longing for friendship idea, or how the asura found the Lyrens. And why would he put capital cities in major ports of tyria? its just not planned out well.

First, everything that is in the feedback space is completely concept, it is all up to the discretion of the developers. It was DESIGNED for this purpose of players posting ideas. Also, hes trying to work in bits and pieces of what we know is in the GW lore, not just completely going "from the void" as you so put it. It means that he isn't just throwing the race out there, hes incorporating it, giving it life and history. Also, the starting location for the Lyrens is not in the LA port, he doesn't even say in the idea anything about locations for the Lyrens. That was made by someone else, he just voiced his opinion of it.--Neithan Diniem 03:43, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

how dare you saying that, guy, everything here has a chance to make it, this is a suggestion in the feedback portal, if Anet won't use player's feedback and idea's, they won't make a feedback portal.

mvg. frozen ice prince

I think we all know that this isn't gonna make the initial release of GW2, but I think it's quite suitable for an expansion. What you are saying about being 'from the void' is just rubbish, how about the asura and norn in GWEN? They came out of nothing, I don't think anyone knows how the Asura came to existence but these Lyrens have a background on how they were created and stuff... It's not like they can't excist I mean they live underwater and during GW1 I don't recall ever going underwater... So why couldn't they excist. This is a great idea. Thumbs Up -- Prince Grazel 21:42, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Just Read :D

I love your idea. It's fantastic. By the way, sorry for making this a new subject. My computer's security system isn't liking me right now. I found I liked the photo on the front page that stated something to the effect of "This photo emphasizes the Lyren's long legs". It is a simple design, but simplicity is the key to beauty. However, considering the fact that GW2 is supposed to be balanced, it seemed like they're racial abilities seemed to revolve around what I would think to be more of a spellcaster. Maybe involve a few more physical abilites? But then again, this is coming from the Warrior type lolz. Anyway, just my opinion.

Someone who hasn't joined yet but would like to,

Battle Wolf

I see this as a good NPC-only race.Dan Dan Teddy Bearz 11:22, 24 November 2010 (UTC)