Feedback talk:User/Seef II/Forceful Blow revamp

Your third suggestion is nice, but i will only add cracked armor to the current skill.--Ciotto 15:57, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I like the first suggestion as it breaks from the mold of other hammer elites offering something besides a knockdown. Granted hammer warriors tend to use the hammer for the KDs so whether it would see play is a debatable matter. Racthoh 22:15, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

First suggestion is over-powered IMO. I really like the 3rd one except maybe drop weakness for KD and take the extra dmg down a bit (even for an elite it's a lot of damage for a little adrenaline with no draw back).Rypofalem 18:20, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Trust me, you really, really don't want an elite hammer knockdown on 4 adrenaline. I can see moving the third suggestion up to 5 though. Your advice is noted on the first suggestion, but keep in mind it's strong because a hammer warrior would be losing a knockdown in his chain - not a small tradeoff to make. ~Seef II <◈|۞> 18:47, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion 1 is a little too strong currently. As an elite crushing blow replacement it deals HUGE damage. Even with the loss of an elite knockdown, that is way too much damage. I could see very minor buff in base damage, and no bonus damage on knockdown. You are already getting the benefit of unblockable, weakness, and a half recharge of crushing. Also is Weakness above or below the deep wound? Suggestion 2 is again giving too much damage. Having an on demand KD + damage is giving too much power to the hammer war. They are pretty balanced currently because the player is sacrificing damage for the usefulness of unconditional KDs. Suggestion 3 is fine, just should clarify the order of the conditions. Staples 20:44, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

You're all missing the point. This skill is not underpowered, it's balanced. It SEEMS underpowered, for the same reason that Eviscerate does, power creep simply outperformed it. Balance = negative effects if you use it wrong. For instance, if you get this blocked, you suffer KD. If Eviscerate is blocked, you've wasted 15 seconds of charging adrenaline, etc. It seems underpowered because of other overpowered skills. -- Tha Reckoning 21:33, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

By that logic, if Decapitate had no negative side effects, it would still be balanced purely because it can be blocked. And I don't think I have EVER heard Eviscerate being underpowered. Forceful blow is clearly underpowered in its current state. It's not like much has changed since it came out either. Devastating Hammer has always been the de facto hammer elite purely because it is an unconditional KD. The usefulness of that alone takes some serious other advantages to balance out. Forceful's current state is only useful if the user is looking to make a damage + kd hybird bar. I would think it would be pretty darn balanced to fill that role if it dealt big damage (check) at a low adrenaline cost (check) with a halfway useful condition (check). However the self-KD is added in. I could see Suggestion 3 being the most balanced because Forceful fills that niche damage+kd hammer, but I think with cracked armor in it as well, I would probably make it a low 6 strikes of adrenaline. 4 is way too strong; the user is getting more damage and conditions than Cleave for the same price. A high 5 strikes might be ok too. Staples 23:11, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I dont want to open a new page for this skill, but if they were to reduce the adren cost of fierce blow to 5, then you could do dps chains using forceful, fierce, heavy, crushing which gives us a nice +130 damage every 5 adren... which isnt bad despite how pretty heavily conditional it is... to fix this skill the least they could do is if its blocked both you and your enemy is knocked down... then it gives a skill that spikes the target if they dont block, and kds them if they do Talamare 23:40, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

That kind of chain doesn't hold water too well in PvP, but it's pretty strong. You want your target on the ground before doing something like that, and knocked targets are prime recipients for prot. And in PvE, if a monster stays alive long enough to finish that combo, I'd be surprised. ~Seef II <◈|۞> 00:00, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I adjusted some of the numbers again to reflect some of the concerns. ~Seef II <◈|۞> 00:00, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Let's see: Suggestion 1 will likely only be used when it's overpowered because it disables most of your chances for an unconditional knocklock (which is what most Hammer elites make you capable of doing), Suggestion 2 looks like an extremely spikey variant of the standard KD elite, sounds like a bad idea to me and Suggestion 3 has Cracked Armor, a condition that I don't expect to be put on Warriors, with good reason btw. I suggest you look further, these suggestions are all pretty awkward/spikey, something that really isn't cool. Dark Morphon 07:53, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

@Reckoning: Lol at the silly anology. Forceful was never good, even when it came out, a KD is always more valuable than a meager 40 damage bonus. Oh, and Eviscerate was never power-creeped out.

Cracked armor sucks. It just fuels the RC fire, and that's something you don't need as a warrior, so I'm against the 3rd suggestion.

Both the first and the second suggestions seem fine - I'd go with the first one, but that's just me. WUBLEAR

VII 21:37, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

You know what goes here

• Suggestion 1: Good idea. The numbers are a little bit o.o, but the idea is good and allows nice synergy for the skilled user. Though, some sort of downside is needed, as it replaces like 3 skills on your bar.
• Suggestion 2: Will get trampled by Devastating Hammer/Earth Shakur. It's extra damage isn't making it a more viable choice.
• Suggestion 3: Hammer elites were, are and will be solely dedicated to KD. There is nothing we can do to change that, it's just the way Hammer wars roll. Titani Ertan 19:30, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I dunno Titani, It seems to me that a 30+ damage bonus might be a tad better than Weakness. I'd still pick Erf over this, but I pick erf over devestating anyhow. I can see it becoming a viable option, though not necessarily meta. WUBLEAR

VII 21:38, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I like the realistic behavior of weapons from reallife to ingame, option 3 sounds very nice to me, cracked armor is it what is missing on the warrior, nice synergy with body blow, no need of pulverizing smash again. Enraging Smash for example buffs with 4 Adrenaline every time, 1 Hit -> Counter Blow, Flail, Pulverizing Smash, Rush reloaded all 5 secs --Kali Shin Shivara 18:34, 1 February 2010 (UTC)