Feedback talk:User/Tennessee Ernie Ford/Replace passage scrolls with NPCs

Don't replace

NPCs exist, technically. Also, no, don't replace. Add in addition to, perhaps, but not replace. Or rather, I think it would be best to move the 2 NPCs to outside of the guild-only zone. No one uses them as they are, so an alternative "set-in-stone price" NPC akin to the UW/FoW would indeed be better, but don't remove the scrolls (as "replace" implies).

If the price for the NPC is relatively higher than the scroll price, merely a resetting of the price and altering the min price for future uses would be enough - but I don't see much point in having the NPC price higher than 500g (UW/FoW minimum price is 500g to sell and 1k to buy, so I'm thinking along the same lines iirc of min scroll pricing being at 200g). -- Konig/talk 02:52, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Most players have no (current) access to Vash or Eurayle, so it doesn't matter to me if they are moved or if ANet creates new NPCs; the impact to players is the same. (Similarly, players don't really care if they buy consumables in EB from Kwat or e.g. Kwat Jr.)

Secondly, my suggestion is to eliminate the scrolls; comparative pricing is immaterial. Scrolls no longer serve a necessary purpose; they add complications in reaching two outposts and two elite areas. As things stand now, scrolls are always available and they are virtually always the same WTB/WTS price at the trader. Why not skip the middleman? — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 03:34, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

It's meant to be an alternative to gain free access to elite areas just as the scrolls to UW/FoW (you do remember the factions rewards dudes, right?). The flaw comes not from having the scrolls but by having set the scrolls so low in price - but that was likely done due to the fact people need groups of 12 rather than 8 so they're comparatively harder (to form groups for - and not to mention that the outposts are always empty). You saying that the Urgoz/Deep scrolls are worthless is like saying that the UW/FoW scrolls are worthless - when, in fact, they are possibly the more used way to enter UW/FoW. ATM, Scrolls (and gh ferrying) are the only way to get into Urgoz/Deep for possibly 99% of the playerbase. That is the flaw, not the scrolls themselves.

tl;dr: They are not a middle man, but rather they are an alternative (a far more accessible alternative). -- Konig/talk 03:44, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

You misunderstand me, Konig. I'm saying that scrolls no longer serve a useful economic purpose and they are an extra step to most players I know. Originally, they functioned as a faction and/or gold sinks, they restricted access to elite areas, they served as mild forms of fungible inventory. But none of that is true anymore. The example you cite actually shows how little scrolls matter to UW-clearing teams; it's essentially free for them to reach UW.

So, I'm suggesting that ANet replace scrolls with a meaningful (albeit small) gold sink, making access to four elite areas as easy as reaching Slavers or DoA.

If the powers that be at ANet see the same economic conditions I'm seeing, they will either do as you suggest (make the scrolls more expensive and/or more rare) or as I suggest (drop the concept and replace it with something less burdensome to non-farmers). — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 04:05, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

I can guarantee that they won't drop the concept. Why? They cannot remove things from player inventory, so while it may be impossible to get scrolls by normal means, there'd be an (increasingly depleting) supply of scrolls in the player market. Plus there's really no reason behind it. As you said, make the elites as accessible as DoA and Slavers. Fun fact: DoA and Slavers requires campaign completion; UW, FoW, Urgoz and the Deep do not. That should answer your summary question as well - UW/FoW/Urgoz/Deep are harder to enter than DoA and Slavers... if you've completed the campaign already. Tombs and Sorrow's are not on par to the other Elites (both in reward and in challenge), but the former still has a pre-challenge to it (complete ascension - which means a minimum of 5 missions).

The scrolls are an alternative which reduces the difficulty to get into these elite areas - scrolls can be obtained for free (those who buy the UW/FoW ones are wasting gold as they are never under 1k, and are often over 1k) and in turn bypass the requirement for them. There is no bypassing the requirement for the other two elite areas. So in essence, the scrolls do not make them "as accessible as" but rather "more accessible than" - DoA/Slavers is hard to unlock, but once unlocked they are easy to enter (DoA moreso); UW/FoW have always been so-so to access while Urgoz and the Deep were nigh impossible to access before scrolls. Scrolls make returning players have utmost ease in returning, putting it more on par to DoA/Slavers.

But if the scrolls are removed and free access is given, UW, FoW, Urgoz, and the Deep - two of which house two of the most desired materials and all four housing materials needed for HoM armor - becomes far easier to access than DoA or Slavers. And if a mere goldsink NPC is given to the later two akin to UW and FoW with the scrolls removed... well, nothing changes for UW and FoW, making them harder to access for returning players, and Urgoz/Deep becomes like UW/FoW. I.e., more tedious for returning players. This doesn't matter for speedclearers, but what about non-speedclearers? I think that's who the scrolls cater to more. It's just that like everything else related to them, the SC's get more benefit because they're faster and more efficient, capable of doing what casual players can do in far less time and effort. -- Konig/talk 04:37, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Another good reason to keep the scrolls, especially for UW, is that entering UW through the NPC terribly reorders your party. Anet should fix that before considering those two NPC's for Urgoz and the Deep. This is annoying for any organized team, speed clear or non speed clear.

Now that Guild Wars is becoming less crowded, I agree that it would be more convenient to add new NPCs for entering the Deep and Urgoz. The scrolls however, are a kind of reward for completing the area and allow cheaper (free) access into these elite areas. So it is a merit above just mere farming the area. In that sense I think the scrolls were a good idea. Also, Underworld used to be only accessible when the Gods were pleased enough, which would be very annoying. This has to change as well now that Guild Wars has become less crowded. Before the updates for Hall of Monuments Calculator, the favor of the Gods was terribly low.

So Yes, the NPC addition would be nice, with the condition that the party mix up problem of UW and FOW are fixed. Removing the scrolls however, removes a rewarding item for completing an elite area and allowing free re-access, and is therefore in my view not a 'desirable addition' to the game. So don't replace passage scrolls, but supplement them. --EmpressOfMisery 08:09, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) The reward of getting a scroll (from foe drops and/or reward chest drops) can easily be replaced by another reward of similar value. The party mix-up problem is a separate issue that should be fixed; it has nothing to do with new NPCs. The only way to remove the negatives I associate with scrolls is to remove them from the game entirely; there are lots of ways to retain the positives listed above.

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, but y'all haven't convinced me that there's any benefit in the passage scroll system that cannot be replicated (or improved) in a scroll-less system. — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 16:23, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

To expand on EOM's point of "the favor of the Gods was terribly low" - eventually it'll become very low again. The survivor and drunkard changes gave it a huge boost... but that boost will go away sooner or later. And then we'll be stuck with requiring favor again, which will eventually become virtually non-existent (soon enough, the only thing that'll keep it going is new players, returning players, and people so into GW they can manage maxing titles over multiple characters (and for the last part, this only counts those who haven't done such already, which is likely few outside those who fit into the first two categories)).

@TEF: Merely changing the reward from the scroll drop to something equal isn't the same. Let's say access to Urgoz/Deep is 500g, and UW/FoW remains at 1k. If you get 1k out of the end UW chest, you'll think "hey I got one plat" and not "hey, I got a free return trip" which is what its intent would be (such an example isn't actually possible due to gold being unreserved). Even if you give people a reward of equal cost, the mentality will not be the same. That 1k won't be used for returning to UW, it'll be put right with the rest of the person's gold.

Sure, you can replace it with a, say, token, but that's the same damn thing right there. There's just a lack of traders. You can do the same with NPCs, but again, it's the same damn thing but actually requiring you to click more and waste more time (finding NPC, /kneeling for UW/FoW, clicking options, making sure you have the money in inventory, etc.).

Scrolls don't harm the game. At all. NPCs don't harm the game. At all. They're merely alternatives and ways to give a new, unique and irreplaceable, reward.

You say you're not convinced, and you have yet to convince me that your NPC system is better either. In fact, you haven't even tried. Fun fact: Neither is better than the other. They're merely alternatives. -- Konig/talk 19:25, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

I looked again at the feedback page and generally, it is a good idea. The flaw though, is the possible replacement reward for end chests. If we choose that gold will be dropped as a substitute, we get the following problem. Since Guild Wars always shares gold when it is dropped, you cannot simply drop gold out of the chest. This will lead to undesired behaviours as there will be people who will deliberately wait with chest opening until others have left, to get a higher share of the gold they pick up, and leaving people that didn't want to wait for that getting less money. This inevitably leads to a system where you have a token that has a set value. And this leads to, as Konig mentioned, to another system of npcs accepting tokens for money.

The money sharing system will not be altered for such an update, so how do you intend to deal with this problem? Using a token inevitably leads to something more difficult than a scroll currently is. Scrolls don't need an extra npc to be of any value, it already has the value in its capability to be instantly used.

The only flaw in my argumentation here right now is that in a particular case, the hidden treasure in EotN and treasures in Nightfall, chests actually do give the possibility to give instant gold to a character. However, those are single drop chests and it is not within the scope of our knowledge to say how easy it is to program this for multi-item chests.

One way or another, we are (or at least I am) interested in your view on this particular problem. --EmpressOfMisery 09:45, 13 May 2011 (UTC)