Feedback talk:User/Tha Reckoning/Peace and Harmony

Was there a suggestion of some kind in there? It just sounded like a rant to me. ~Shard 02:13, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

"5 energy, 1/4 sec cast, 3 sec recharge" PnH, I suppose. Sounds grossly overpowered. Impaled 02:27, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Less "pro-ish" abbreviationism would be much appreciated ... that's finally turning it into some rant-like thing. Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 02:30, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

It's not a rant, it's explaining why it isn't overpowered that way. Look closer at the description, the rechais the suggestion. -- Tha Reckoning 02:32, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

So maybe make some revisions to make it clearer as a suggstion. -- Wyn talk 02:36, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Done. -- Tha Reckoning 02:39, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I was wondering if you had an idea, shard? I usually like your ideas. -- Tha Reckoning 02:53, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

(Indent reset) 3 second recharge? Are you INSANE? Let me remind you, this skill effectively cleans off any character and keeps them clean for another 2-3 seconds. This single skill would nullify any reasonable hex pressure build (well, pretty much ANY build for that matter). And it actually is pretty decent at stopping spikes because unlike RC, it can be self targeted and casts in 1/4 sec getting rid of deep wound and any mean hexes that could be helping that spike. I'm sorry, but there is a reason it is 12 instead of 8 seconds now. At 3 seconds, this is available pretty much whenever. If this was a troll. You got me good. But something tells me that this is actually serious. Staples 06:42, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

joke suggestions like these makes them stop taking real suggestions seriously Talamare 11:16, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Reckoning is a troll. --Super Igor flame my shove sin bar! 13:54, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Lol, you think this is a joke? Have you played GW lately? It's ALL a joke. Yes, it seems broken, because you're thinking in terms of normal balance. You can't think like that, because balance is almost nonexistent. You are just sad because this actually answers to hexes, and nothing currently does, which seems like a radical idea, but in a balanced game, things like hexes can be countered. I'm not talking about spamming veil and spotless mind on recharge, that won't even keep up with one hexer. This would actually counter hexes, and force people to come up with new builds. Scary, isn't it? -- Tha Reckoning 15:45, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Sure, it would counter hexes, in the sense that this one skill would single-handedly nullify any hex- or condition-based build. If you think something's imbalanced, the right answer is usually not to violently skew everything in the opposite direction. Impaled 15:52, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this has to be a troll. I'm not even going to try and reason with this. It is just plain wrong. Staples 15:55, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Lol 3 recharge uninterruptable condition/hex immunity skill. @Reckoning You do know that removing DW pretty much kills the spike? Pika Fan 15:56, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

There are plenty of ways to spike without deep wound, and the skill can still be countered, just not by anything you're prepared to accept, because you're stuck in this narrow minded view of meta. The new escape daggers craze, for instance. Pure DPS, maybe with a little bleeding or deep wound thrown in, easy spike, even without the conds. Palm Strike, the way it is now, with the KD follow up. Temple Strike + IAS. Headbutt + plague touch. MB/D. All the things that can counter monks now, can counter this. Sure, you might see more of things like Arcane Conundrum + Enchanters Conundrum, or Migraine + Dazed, and then a skilled interrupt, which requires some thinking to do. That is the idea, to break away from this 123456 hex crap, and promote some thought. If you think about it, very few things that aren't already run into the ground are countered, just the OP stuff. Hexes are countered. Wounding Strike is countered. Ranger condispam is countered. Now those three things will be just as powerful as Eviscerate, making people come up with new builds and counters. -- Tha Reckoning 16:21, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

No, he doesn't. --Super Igor 16:36, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

lol Igor, this is like the fifth time you've tried to provoke me, and it hasn't worked yet. Unless you can contribute to the discussion, once again, get off my pages. -- Tha Reckoning 16:47, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Like what? Pray tell. It doesn't escape the fact that casual hexing and blinding is totally negated, and the meta isn't comprised of solely of R/A. Also, the moment you started the drivel about Temple Strike and Headbutt, it shows how ignorant you are of PvP on any level. Bringing 2 skills just simply to counter 1 elite skill is quite stupid, when they can simply just remove the first hex and gain immunity for the second. Seriously, this suggestion thing has revived the group of players with absolutely no understanding of balance. Continue living in that little delusional world of yours, that people would sacrifice 4 skill slots on their bars just to counter 1 quick recharging elite skill. Nice trolling btw.Pika Fan 16:52, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Umm, no. --Super Igor 16:53, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

You call people trolls, then state that people are ignorant for what they believe. Filthy hypocrite. The purpose of those skills is not simply to counter this version of PnH, they are simply viable counters. Close your mouth and think for a second. They also counter just about every other healing build out there, if used correctly. How many mesmers devote more than half their bar to shutting down monks? How many necromancers carry Insidious Parasite and Reckless Haste? You are just hacking away at the threads holding onto people's respect for you, when you assault people and insinuate things about them just because of an idea they have, and then don't even present anything close to a rebuttal that contributes to the situation at hand. Like I told Igor, if you're not going to contribute anything to the discussion, get off my pages. Consider that an open order to anyone who comes to this page without something credable to say about it. -- Tha Reckoning 17:00, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Igor would know, he's an expert on the Topic (trolling) --ilr 17:10, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

That was @ pika. -- Tha Reckoning 17:11, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

So what if I am a hypocrite? It doesn't change the fact that I am right. Counters to a skill does not make the skill balanced. It doesn't change the fact that this skill eliminates all forms of hexing and conditioning, is immune to interrupts, cheap and recharges fast. You can't hex anyone for more than 5 seconds, nor will conditions stick on which makes any build that uses conditions and hexes to pressure/snare other than diversion, shame and deep wound useless. Wake up to reality, people will flame you if you are retarded about it. Idiots believe that they are smart, but it doesn't change the fact they are not what they are. You believe that your proposed skill is balanced in every way, but it doesn't change the fact that it isn't. That's denial and delusion. P.S Anyone has the right to post on the talkpage of the wiki, you have no right to tell them to go away; the wiki does not belong to you. There's also nothing stopping you from being an ignorant troll, so it's not a matter of being a hypocrite anymore. Pika Fan 17:15, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Please keep the discussion relevant to the suggestion. Igor, if you aren't contributing constructively in these discussions, you will not be participating in them further. -- Wyn talk 17:18, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Just starving troll thats all. Also, dont tell me what to do. --Super Igor 17:22, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

QQ moar. This skill can effectively make a party member immune to any kind of pressure. Cast it on a melee and it becomes uncounterable, cast it on a monk and it becomes unspikeable, immortal even. Funny how you say Palm Strike would conter it, it won't, pre-cast PnH as the sin runs to you and PS' cripple would wear off before trample even hits. Reliably Interrupt, really? It's a 1/4 second cast. --Super Igor 17:24, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Stop proving just how deluded you are, and stop insinuating that I am idiotic because I have an idea. You're even naming off things that 1. Effectively make the skill change balanced, and 2. Prove my point and how wrong you are. You, pika, name things like diversion and shame, which would indeed make PnH balanced, giving drawbacks to it's use. You, Igor, name things like palm strike. Wake up, it's not the cripple that you use palm strike for. Palm strike is used to skip to a dual attack, and namely KD monks fast. PnH does not prevent that KD, and palm strike in it's current form can still easily take down a PnH monk this way. With the lack of two strong heals (WoH + PS) you can effectively outdamage a monk running this. PnH in no way effects how powerful things like fire magic or hammer warriors currently are. So, you call me an idiot, bring only things that prove yourself wrong to the table, claim that no one owns the wiki, and still throw a fit at me. You aren't gaining anything by continuing this discussion. -- Tha Reckoning

No u wake up, Trampling Ox only KD's a crippled target. --Super Igor 19:42, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about, narrow minded-ness. You don't NEED trampling ox as an assassin, and tbh, most monks are not gonna be smart enough to just take off the cripple that fast anyway, which is the whole reason PS works the way it does in the first place. We can argue details all day, it doesn't really make any difference anyway. The skill can effectively be countered, easily, and can be spiked down, and I'm not going to change it. -- Tha Reckoning 19:45, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

HotO is far less deadly tbh. Anyway, gg trolling. --Super Igor 19:47, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) So it's a bad idea because it balances a broken sin build and hexes at the same time, I see. Btw, are you calling me a troll? -- Tha Reckoning 19:53, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't make that sin build or hexes or anything balanced, it just adds more powercreep. Thats what you fail to understand, or don't want to. --Super Igor 20:17, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

No, it doesn't add more powercreep, it balances the powercreep that's already there. Skilled players can spike down a monk running this, and therefore it promotes learning. By making PS and WS and hexway less enticing, this balances some of the mess that factions and nightfall created, while still having other useful elites like WoH around. As long as no new content is added after all the necros and sins and mesmers QQ about finally being balanced, this skill would do perfectly fine. -- Tha Reckoning 20:23, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I wanna know why the hell you guys are talking about assassins because this is a monk elite...-- anguard 20:29, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Basically, I made a skill suggestion. They're crying cause they think it's too powerful, while doing several things: 1. Insulting me and my experience 2. Making no points 3. Proving my point for me and 4. Generally trolling. Anyway, I gave several examples for counters, one being an assassin spike. -- Tha Reckoning 20:34, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Then at least make it 1 sec cast and make % reduction scaleable like Mark of Insecurity. Spammable, 1/4 cast spell that wipes an ally clean and keeps him so for 3 seconds is just crazy. --Super Igor 20:40, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

You're not really doing yourself any favors by calling people who don't agree with you trolls. Super-buffing an already powerful skill to turn it into what amounts to a hard counter to something else you feel is overpowered is a great example of power creep, not good balance. Impaled 20:41, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

^ --Super Igor 20:46, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm calling them trolls because they disagree, I'm calling them trolls because they resort to insults instead of making any valid points. As I was about to say, 2 editing conflicts ago, I will remove the 90 percent bit. It is not power creep, because it balances current power creep, as I have said. As long as no content is added to add more power creep, it will be fine. No content should be added because the skill is perfectly counterable. -- Tha Reckoning 20:50, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

1. Hexes are overpowered. The obvious (and correct) solution is to fix hexes, not to break the rest of the game. This isn't rocket science. It's Problem -> Solution. You're doing Problem->Problem.
2. PnH used to have a 7 second recharge, and it was broken as shit then.
3. This skill is NOT counterable.
4. This skill IS power creep.

Seriously, keep joke suggestions off the feedback space. ~Shard 20:52, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

It was not broken, morons just kept bringing the same skills over and over and over and over and over and QQing until the vast majority of players ( noobs ) whined so much they they nerfed it. Not bringing effective counters to the skill was like beating your face against a brick wall over and over. Also, you'll see that I have a suggestion pages about hexes as well. I'm not taking it off the suggestion space, especially not when there are truly unintelligent suggestions, like giving pets AoE damage and things like that. As long as hexes are broken, I'm leaving it. Either hexes get fixed, or you make an effective counter to hexes, I have offered both options. -- Tha Reckoning 20:57, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I cap'd this recently and I gotta say man, the skill is fine. If anything it needs a nerf. It's got the capability to completely clear someone of conditions and hexes. I fail to see the problem.-- anguard 20:59, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

We were talking PvP mostly, in PvE it's great. -- Tha Reckoning 21:01, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Your suggestion encourages the opposite of what you're trying to accomplish. If this goes into the game, mesmers become useless. Water eles become useless. RC and LS become useless. Your suggestion might as well say "Take hexes and conditions out of the game." You don't fix a broken light bulb by blowing up the sun.~Shard 21:07, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

*grabs some popcorn* Reckonning vs. Shard, that gotta be interesting. --Super Igor 21:13, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

You're right, but it's better than what Anet has come up with, nothing. -- Tha Reckoning 21:15, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

It is worse than anything Anet could come up with. --Super Igor 21:17, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Lol be off Igor, you've literally contributed nothing so far. -- Tha Reckoning 21:20, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

If arenanet did nothing, it would be better than your suggestion. That's how bad it is. ~Shard 21:29, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Lol I wouldn't go that far, but since it's by popular demand, I'll up the recharge to 7. It won't be a full revert, since the 90% bit is gone. -- Tha Reckoning 21:38, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

So now it's as broken as it was when they first changed it. Congratulations, you fail just as much as anet. ~Shard 22:03, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

No, it's not as broken, just an elite hex/cond removal. It doesn't reduce the next few hexes or conds. -- Tha Reckoning 22:05, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

The problem of your suggestion is that you can take out alla hexes and condition from 4 people in 12 seconds, while the anet version take out all from only one guys for 3 seconds. Do you understand that your version is overpowered?--Ciotto 22:07, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

First of all, please work on your typing, it's hard to know what you're talking about. Second, only with a 40/40 set does it keep four people clean that fast. Third, any necro or mesmer can add another 3-5 hexes in that time. Multiply that by two, and you get hexes all over the place, and inability to keep up. -- Tha Reckoning 22:11, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Stop suggestion counters to gimmicks that shouldn't exist. I'm going to walk you through what a power creep is and why you're creating one.

1. A gets buffed.
2. to make up for this, A's counter (B) gets buffed.
3. B also counters C, so now C is weak and gets a buff.
4. C counters A, so now A has to be buffed.
5. Repeat from step 1.
6. Peace and Harmony ~Shard 22:17, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

First of all, I'm sorry for my english but isn't my fault where i born. Second, either hex have recharge and an energy cost. Third, five hex mean five skills on the build.--Ciotto 22:18, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Diversion, along with all other mesmer hexes, and daze, and escape daggers, and mind blast and all fire magic, and everything else in the game that can easily take out this PnH, along with WoH and every other monk build, wouldn't have to be buffed. -- Tha Reckoning 22:22, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

You listed a bunch of things that PnH destroys. What viable counters does it have? ~Shard 22:24, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

(ri) atm I personally see PnH one of the better skills around, a spammable purge signet without losing all your energy, really man if you want to nerf hexes, buffing PnH isnt the way to do it Talamare 22:28, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Sigh. PnH monks spam PnH. Diversion on PnH = gg. Shame makes PnH monks QQ. E denial, in the form of non hexes. Hammer KD. Escape daggers. PnH has no effect whatsoever on MB/D. A ranger can even out condition this form of PnH, keeping the monk busy. Also, PnH prevents taking WoH, so heals are much more scarce, making kills through dps easier. Daze + IAS ints PnH in this form. -- Tha Reckoning 22:34, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

You're depending on 100% of the player base to be stupid with their skills. This is not possible. There will always be players who don't suck. When those players command a skill this powerful, the game breaks. You always balance a game assuming players are as perfect as humanly possible, which you're not doing. ~Shard 22:36, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Diversion on PnH recharges just as long for a good player as a bad one. A good player can't make heals out of nothing, and just about the best heal you're going to be able to take with this is patient spirit, which basically isn't going to keep a team alive. Even through preprotting and removing a lot of hexes and conds, some will still land and be there long enough to do damage. Shatterstone? Also, just dps is going to take you down much more easily than a WoH monk. Also, the vast majority of the players in GW are terrible, so this should suffice. -- Tha Reckoning 22:44, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

You're not getting the point. Having a counter doesn't make something balanced. This barely counters hexway at the cost of removing legitimate builds from the metagame. That's never ok. ~Shard 22:48, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I like how a skill is apparently balanced because it can be Diversioned. How long will it take before Reckoning realizes that counters to a skill don't mean that the skill is balanced. And Diversion, Shame, edenial, etc. are pretty darn good on just about any monk. This page is full of lulz. I approve of this talk page. Staples 22:53, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

And the point of the story is...

Dont be a cocksucker. No matter how much you (The Reckoning) suck someone's cock they won't hesitate a moment to stab you in the back. --86.170.145.246 22:45, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

There's a better moral to this story: You can pretend you know everything and still look like an idiot, as you've proven. ~Shard 22:47, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Lol whose cock have I sucked? Also, I never pretended to know everything, if anyone's done that, it sure hasn't been me, you're a lot closer to that milestone than I am, Shard. -- Tha Reckoning 22:48, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

guys dont turn this into a flame fest, I personally dont want the new suggestion box to turn into a joke already Talamare 22:50, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

This box was a joke right from the start. --Super Igor 22:52, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Nobody asked any of you to read it, or even care, and none of you have come up with a better idea, or done anything other than try and demean me anyway, so the only ones turning it into a joke are you people. I haven't claimed to know everything, or anything like that. I made a suggestion and I've defended it from about 90 people that disagree, which is fine by me, but none of you have made any sort of argument with enough merit to help me change my mind, save for Shard talking me into tweaking the recharge. The bottom line is that it is MY suggestion, not yours, so if you don't like it, tough shit. If you want to come here and try and convince me of something, that's fine, but the second you start casting aspersions on my character or my experience or trolling me or anything of the sort, I'm probably not going to listen, but that doesn't make me pigheaded. If you hadn't noticed, I disagreed with Shard, but I still accepted some of his ideas as correct. Bottom line, keep the insults out of it, and discuss. It's called a talk page for a reason, if it was an insult page, I would be having the time of my life here. -- Tha Reckoning 22:56, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

is it possible to have an admin do a small amount of clean up on this page, this page has to have some rule violation (btw I agree with you reckoning that the personal insults and trolling shouldnt be around) Talamare 23:00, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Maybe you can reduce the number of hex and conditions removed about 0...2...3.--Ciotto 23:13, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I find that PnH is perfectly balanced and doesn't need any more buffs. It's a skill that removes a stack of conditions and hexes, so if one of your allies isn't suffering from a stack of hexes/conditions you should use something else. Back when PnH had 7 sec recharge ANet found out that people were madly spamming this skill on every condition/hex and the way they decided to address this was to increase the recharge to a balanced 12 seconds. Which made monks think about which ally really needed to be cleansed of a lot of hexes/conditions. Even though 12 seconds seems like a long recharge if you think about what the skill does and compare it with other condition/hex removals you'll see just how strong this skill really is. --Johnny Rodrigues 01:16, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

The problem with that is, no matter where you go in pvp, your allies are ALWAYS suffering from a stack of hexes and conditions. People madly spammed the skill because of the way the meta is. 12 seconds IS a very long recharge when compared to the recharge time of most hexes. It seems powerful because it removes a lot of hexes, and because hex removals recharge 2x-3x too slow to keep up with any hexes at all. -- Tha Reckoning 01:24, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Hexes need to be better than hex removal when they are brought on double the amount of people because GuildWars is an aggressive game. In conclusio: A hex removal doesn't win because it keeps your team unhexed most of the time but because it removes the correct hex(es) from the important people in a key situation. When you realize that defense must be weaker (albeit only slightly) than offense, you'll see why Peace and Harmony doesn't need to be a ban hammer for hexes and (conditions). [PS:Punishing hexes can't be kept up. That's a principle. Okay, there are 1500% uptime coverhexes — but skills like Peace and Harmony makes up for that.] Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 01:48, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

"ALWAYS"? You're overreacting a little... As Noctarch said people need to learn How, When and Where to use it. Being able to counter everything with just one skill is just plain wrong. --Johnny Rodrigues 02:00, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

@ Noctarch: A good point, but right now, one hexer can effectively keep four people hexed, even with the "correct" hexes. Btw, see: Empathy, Insidious Parasite, Illusion of Pain, Faintheartedness, Lingering Curse, Suffering, Spiteful Spirit, Spoil Victor, Corrupt Enchantment, Soul Bind, Weaken Knees, Wither, Reapers Mark, Panic, Power Flux, Air of Disenchantment, Crippling Anguish, Fevered Dreams, Migraine, Recurring Insecurity, Shared Burden, Augury of Death, etc. You say punishing hexes can't be kept up, but all of these can. Are you saying a warrior isn't punished when he has empathy and insidious on, which often happens? Or that an entire team isnt punished when they all have LC and suffering on? I could go through the entire list that way. @ Johnny, this PnH would not even come close to countering everything. How does PnH counter knockdown, mind blast, searing flames, diversion, RtL, escape sins, hammer warriors, AoL dervishes, palm strike sins, etc.? -- Tha Reckoning 02:10, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent)

• Illusion of Pain, Faintheartedness, Lingering Curse, Suffering, Corrupt Enchantment, Weaken Knees, Wither, Reapers Mark, Panic, Power Flux, Air of Disenchantment, Crippling Anguish, Fevered Dreams, Migraine, Recurring Insecurity, Shared Burden, Augury of Death are all not punishing hexes.
• Spiteful Spirit, Spoil Victor are both quite weak as punishing hexes. Spiteful spirit can be mitigated by divine favor or self-heals alone and Spoil Victor limits itself and mostly doesn't even really help killing.
• Empathy, Insidious Parasite. Okay, I don't deny they're upkeepable punishing hexes. But their life loss isn't hefty enough to kill on their own or to contribute to killing without much help. The reason why they are upkeepable is because they are anti-physical punishing hexes and physicals can kill without skill in case of emergency.
• Soul Bind might be the only one. I can understand why it's not that often used but don't know how to express it — I beg your pardon here. Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 02:33, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

PS: Peace and Harmony does in fact counter Palm Strikers. Actually, it is next to Aura of Stability the only reliable monk counter. Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 02:37, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

@Reckon We could also list all hex removals in the game and that would still not prove a point. There will always be skills that punish people for doing something and I'm glad they exist. How would you like to have a warrior constantly kd you 24/7 because he has no one or anything stopping him? At least when he has empathy/insidious/faint/whatever he has something to deal with. When an entire team suffers from aoe hexes, it also suffers from a lack of strategy and coordenation. PnH counters the condition applied by warriors after the kd or prevents kd entirely (like iron palm), prevents/reduces burning from MB builds and searing flames (also see aoe hexes above), diversion? lol you can see it coming and pre cast it on yourself (if you don't already pre-casted holy veil). As for other every build you mentioned, because PnH is a divine favor skill it lets monks choose if they want to go heal, prot or even hybrid, greatly boosting their overall effectiveness against any type of build. --Johnny Rodrigues 02:47, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

@ Noctarch, when timed right or used correctly, all of those can be punishing hexes. Faintheartedness is devastating to melee, just as LC is devastating to healing. Corrupt Enchant and WK, not so much. Panic, Power Flux, Air of Disenchantment, Fevered Dreams, Migraine, and Augury of Death are indeed punishing, whether by shutting down monks through e denial, or slowing their casting, or preventing Guardian, or spreading conds, or causing an inopportune deep wound. Empathy and Insidious Parasite may not cause as much damage, but they effectively make the opposing team have one less player, similar to the way WoD does. Also, wrong on both counts; PnH does NOT counter Palm Strike, it counters Horns of the Ox, which is often used with PS, and guardian is a very reliable monk counter, along with pre patient spirit. Assassins would switch to Trampling Ox, and effectively spike. @ Johnny, you can list any hex removal you want, no single non elite hex removal is anywhere near effecient enough to counter even half a necro or mesmer. Melee have plenty of counters to deal with, without hexes completely removing them from the game. A balanced example of an anti melee hex would be Blurred Vision, since your enemy still has a chance. You're pretending that every team is perfect, and they never get AoE hexed, or anything, and this is not the case. How many good builds use Iron Palm? The problem with KD warriors is not the condition, its the KD, or they would be called Weakening Warriors. PnH does not prevent that. Removing the burning from a MB build does not counter the build, or come close to mitigating any of it, Mind Blast builds kill because of unlimited energy and easily spammable damage, which PnH does nothing to counter. Monks with this build cannot outheal very much of the damage that is currently in arenas right now, because they are sacrificing WoH as their premier heal. Monks carrying WoH AND Patient Spirit are often simply outdone by damage alone. As for protting, imagine running ZB, but without ZB. Would you be able to effectively preprot every single bit of damage, and keep your team alive? No, and you've sacrificed your only heal with bringing PnH, barring Gift of Health, which still wouldn't cover it. And as for GvG and HA, this would simply replace the RC monk, and counter hexway. Two birds with one stone. -- Tha Reckoning 02:59, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, most monks would spam this, and tbh your general monk doesn't see anything coming, because players aren't as perfect as you make them out to be, so diversion would be gg, along with most simple spike builds like escape daggers. -- Tha Reckoning 03:02, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Try to read Punish. Punish doesn't mean hinder or cause direct loss of life, it means applying something bad because your foe did something. Your own defintion (and as seen by reading the linked page your definition alone). And if you read carefully, I referred to palm strikers, not the skill itself. One might argue if Death blossom spamming assassins with Palm Strike as their elite may be called this but since the nerf which put Palm Strike's recharge at 7 seconds it's only really viable - and thus used - with the two knock-down dagger attacks (by the way, it counters Trampling Ox not Horns of the Ox). Guardian is in the vast majority of situations too slow to rescue the target of the knock-down facilitating palm strike assassin - this doesn't make it bad, just less useful against said set of skills. If both the assassin and the monk are of equal skill neither Patient Spirit nor Guardian will help. That's when and where quick-casting, immediate solutions are handy. "tbh your general monk doesn't see anything coming" - so much to the counters of above. Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 03:11, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

When timed correctly every skill is better. Melees do have a tough time even without hexes but we're not here to discuss effectiveness of hexes on melees or casters. PnH does counter Palm Strike's cripple and Trampling Ox. Just from quick browsing PvX I already found 7 different pvp builds that used iron palm. They're called devastating hammer warriors, they kd you, apply weakness and deep wound with crushing blow. I never said PnH countered the MB Build, I said: It counters the burning from the MB/Searing Flames Build. "Monks with this build cannot outheal very much of the damage that is currently in arenas right now, because they are sacrificing WoH as their premier heal." You didn't even make a build, monks have good healing skills besides word of healing. That's because of the power-creep that Anets is constantly promoting and that you are also promoting with the reduced recharge to 7 sec to PnH. If it's not running ZB then it's not ZB, no point proven there. There are also more skills in PP than just ZB. You can't preprot every single bit of damage, that's just dumb. The role of the monk is to try to keep his party alive while they kill the opposing team. It's not a competition of who prots/heals the most. Gift of health is hardly ever used anymore. This would simply replace most monks elite wherever they play. I could argue that most monks are dumb or even that some are smarter than what you give them credit for but we wouldn't go anywhere making this any longer. --Johnny Rodrigues 03:47, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Lol stop bringing up random tidbits that have no effect. PnH does counter Trampling Ox, but that doesn't mean that it's a counter to the entire build. Just because there are some builds on PvX with iron palm means nothing. Monks have 1 good healing skill besides WoH. ZB monks can rarely outheal damage, and its a full prot bar, with ZB as a heal, so if you think a PnH can effectively prot, you are wrong. Bottom line, this skill wouldn't change much, outside of un-breaking what's broken. -- Tha Reckoning 03:57, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

@ nostarch, most of the time, the assassin appears better than the monk because PS builds require no skill, hence they are imba. -- Tha Reckoning 04:00, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

You have been contradicting yourself from the start and making up things that people never said just because you can't read properly. And it shows, because if you thought for a while you'd see that if you take off the cripple from palm strike, Trampling Ox will fail, and the rest of the combo will too because you didn't kd the monk. If you really think that monks only have 1 good elite besides WoH then you should play something else because you fail at monk. PnH can't prot. What PnH can do is remove hexes and conditions. Bottom line, this skill would continue with the power-creep that Anet already introduced us to, and break the game even further. --Johnny Rodrigues 11:25, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I am making things up because I got two assassin skills with similar names and effects confused? Everything I have said and debunked has come directly from what you or Nostarch said. Read the warning up there, when it gets to where you're attacking my character again, you lose all merit, and the discussion closes. Once again, someone has QQ'd because I disagree with them, and started in on me. It really doesn't matter, about palm strike. If it breaks the combo, hint: THAT IS A GOOD THING, PALM STRIKE IS OP. If not, then PS is yet another counter to this skill, along with countless others. Either way, your argument is completely without merit. Balancing hexway and/or a broken assassin build does not constitute breaking the game further. -- Tha Reckoning 18:40, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Btw, my point was, you could use PS ---> HotO, and go from there, and it would still KD. Stop being narrow minded, pvp would adapt to kill these monks, and tbh it wouldn't have to adapt very much at all, just shifting away from things that are lolbroken. -- Tha Reckoning 18:42, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Why are you still talking? --Super Igor 18:50, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

You're contradicting yourself when you can't get your facts straight. Get real. Don't try to blame your lack of knowledge and common sense on me or noctarch. This skill already got nerfed when it was 99% similar to your suggestion for a reason, because it was OP. You don't fix a game by overpowering counters to a certain build, you fix it by nerfing the overpowered skills. The only one qq'ing here is you because you can't take a simple critic. "Balancing hexway and/or a broken assassin build does not constitute breaking the game further" that's what I've been trying to say, balacing the overpowered stuff is the way to go. Not create more overpowered skills. --Johnny Rodrigues 18:52, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Sigh. I can't take a critic? Get real? Read up about 40 walls of text. Your "It's okay because Anet nerfed it" speech isn't doing anything but making it completely obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about. If Anet knew what they were doing, we wouldn't even have a feedback space. Period. I haven't blamed you for anything, and again, for some reason you're after my character, saying I have a lack of knowledge and common sense, bringing things that don't matter out of nowhere. They nerfed it because 99% of the noobs that play ran necros or mesmers because it was the easiest way to win, and all those people cried when it actually balanced hexes out, instead of stopping and looking around at the million easy ways to take down the build. If you're just coming here to try and assault me, again, for the whatever amount of times I have said this, get off my page. You tried to make a valid point, and you failed, and now you're just taking shots at me, so unless you have anything other than that to say, once again, the discussion is over. -- Tha Reckoning 19:00, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

If Anet didn't know what they were doing you wouldn't be playing this game. Period. QQ more? How hypocrite of yourself to say that you're being attacked when you call people names, dismiss them from the wiki or even resort to victimizing yourself. The latter doesn't work on some people unfortunately and you won't get away from listening to my point of view just because you can't take a simple opinion and you keep ignoring the facts. You can keep fooling yourself and be stubborn or you could re-read the entire posts and get some decent insight on how the game works and what does and does not need fixing. --Johnny Rodrigues 19:23, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Really, seriously, stop now, I'm this far from archiving this page and never responding again. Anet DOES NOT know what they are doing. They did, when GW came out, and the game was actually good. That is one of two reasons that people still play; 1. They're hoping for another stroke of genius like that to come along, and 2. There is no monthly fee. Otherwise, everyone who plays GW now, would be playing WoW. I haven't QQ'd or victimized myself or attacked people or called anyone names or dismissed anyone from the wiki. I haven't ignored any facts, I have addressed everything you've said, countered, and you have not swayed me, so the page stays the way it is. This talk page is here for people to TALK about what is there. You started out doing that, and when I did not immediately accept you as some sort of godly prophet who knows everything about GW, you got all butthurt. If it makes you feel better, think of it as me being stubborn, but ONCE AGAIN, stop posting here if you don't actually have something to say, it's because people keep making snide little comments like that, that the page is so long. -- Tha Reckoning 19:30, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

It's people's stubborness that makes wiki posts this long. Do what you wish with the page, most people will be like tl;dr anyways. A lot of people already contributed with similar points of view on this post so I don't need to make this any longer. Besides Anet won't revert this no matter how stubborn you are. So you can keep your version of PnH for yourself. PS: you can tell yourself or whoever you personally know to stop or shut up, since I'm neither of those you can take your supposed authority off this page. And you can archive that. --Johnny Rodrigues 19:53, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

You're right, it is people's stubbornness that makes it so long, for instance, someone that keeps posting long after it's been made clear that the discussion is over. It's not my authority, everyone reading this really doesn't care about your little insults and how much you're wasting your time and mine. -- Tha Reckoning 20:07, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Reckonning is a big troll --Super Igor 15:04, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Igor, you calling anyone else a troll is just mind numbing. -- Tha Reckoning 17:46, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

How many agree

This page became tl;dr so lets simplify, If you agree with this change, add a very short reply stating you agree, if not DO NOT REPLY Talamare 09:48, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Eh, reckoning lost me at There are plenty of ways to spike without deep wound, and the skill can still be countered.

Sure mate, sure. Signet of humility is a counter, right? How about shadow shroud? And, yeah, i can spike without DW. Just using SF.

Learn to buildwars. -- NUKLEAR IIV 19:38, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

ahem

monks can already counter hexes with elites. what guild wars needs is viable non-elite removal. the problem is having to sacrifice an elite in the first place - not that the elite skills currently in the game are too weak. until holy veil and remove hex are as powerful as parasitic bond and suffering, hexes will continue to be a problem. -Auron 03:58, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

100% agree. You should make a suggestion page for that. -- Tha Reckoning 04:01, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

no thanks, anet can ignore me perfectly well without me making a page for it. -Auron 04:23, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm optimistic enough to have hope XD -- Tha Reckoning 04:25, 6 September 2009 (UTC)