User talk:Axwind

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Our Character cont.

I'm not even sure how anyone can not be a gameplay fanatic in a video game. It's kinda what videogaming is all about, sure you have stuff attached to that, but just like how the picture itself should always be more important in a movie, the gameplay should always be more important in a video game. You'd be hard pressed to find even 10 other people who don't think gameplay is more important than story, even Azazel would agree to that. I am a lore lover myself, Azazel knows I am, but thinking story is more important than bugs, gameplay issues, and so on, is quite silly. Sure, I'd love to see more lore (not your type, I'm afraid), but I'd be really quite stupid to expect it when there is more pressing issues in the game. I know they went over everything because a videogame company has to go over everything. There isn't a single aspect of a game that doesn't involve many other departments and nothing is as simple as you'd like them to be. I'm quite sure they discussed and made several important gameplay and story decisions on how our characters should be handled long long ago, and they followed through on that for 2 more campaigns and an expansion. How Gwen was handled was most likely rigorously discussed internally especially considering she was a major advertising point for Eye of the North. Videogame companies have to discuss all these minute details, what you think is a relatively minor deal for them to do is really quite big and would require the work of many many other people and lots of time. No I don't think ArenaNet is perfect, I speak against them quite a lot, and if I thought they were perfect I wouldn't have brought up the gameplay issues or bugs deal. If these minor story points really bother you so much, use your imagination and pretend they are your way, because they've already said they aren't going to do them and go back on these specific developer choices. DarkNecrid 14:51, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Okay. But I still believe the storytelling potential of games is woefully underused. They can be so much more than they are. And I never said story was more important, only that it was important. And if she was such an advertising point for the game, why'd they put Jora on the cover instead? Just wondering, because every other GW game has had at least a couple alternate characters for the cover. And if you do believe they can make mistakes, then it follows that such mistakes would occur not only in gameplay, but in story. So why should those never be addressed? And the issues are pressing from your point of view, not necessarily everyone's.

I just don't understand why people think that games can only be games, that they can't be used to tell deep, complex stories as well rather than just the typical stuff we see. --Axwind 15:52, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I know story is important, but gameplay is definitely more important. You can have the greatest videogame story ever and if the gameplay sucked, not many people at all would play it. They put Jora on the cover because she looks a lot sexier than the Gwen does imo, plus they can show her massive tits at the bottom, so it makes sense from a stupid marketing standpoint. To the community Gwen was a selling point, from the possible abbreviation of GWEN, to showcasing her in the trailer, etc. It was about bringing the story full circle from Prophecies in that respect.

Yes, they can make mistakes in the story, but largely these mistakes are mostly trivial - typoes, a minor continuity flaw, and so on. Some continuity errors are done because of gameplay, as I mentioned before, you technically shouldn't be able to go to Factions/Prophecies from Nightfall because those stories take place before Nightfall in the timeline. But it's a continuity error made so that the gameplay is a lot smoother and fair, likewise the Gwen deal is a continuity error done because it would have required too much time and programming to fix it to be legit. It sucks, but they are on a limited resource budget. Those issues shouldn't be addressed because of that, making new content, fixing gameplay issues, and fixing huge bugs is a lot more important on any game developers scale when it comes to priorities compared to relatively minor in comparison story changes. If the story error was HUGE (which is very very hard to have happen, mind you), then maybe getting it changed is important, but fixing up the minor continuity errors isn't going to help bring people in or keep them playing, new content + fixing gameplay plaguing issues will.

While you're correct that the issues I mentioned (bugs, gameplay issues, content) aren't pressing from everyone's POV (such as yourself), it's quite clear that ArenaNet thinks otherwise, and in the end, what they think is what counts in this situation. DarkNecrid 16:24, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

But what about fixing things through new content? Is that not possible? --Axwind 18:37, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Depends on what you mean. The stuff you suggested isn't new content in the way I mean, it's new dialogue etc, but it's not new playable content. It's tough to create new content (playable gameplay of a significant size to expand the playtime of the game) that would fix the Gwen error, and besides that, I'm not so sure if that'd even make sense were it possible. Most of the stuff you suggested (besides the character stuff, but they won't fix this, it's actually a design decision to make the characters faceless, the point is that you're, like any RPer, supposed to create your own face for your character, like Azazel did for his etc) could only be fixed through changing dialogue or adding dialogue which she doesn't want to do. I think adding new content to add lore would be great, but off the top of my head I can't think of a way to create new content to fix existing lore (besides saying the old content was wrong, which is just more simply done by fixing the old content...), but then again I'm really tired atm. DarkNecrid 20:26, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

It's okay, sorry I was bugging you so much. I guess it does sort of make sense, the things you were saying. I just got too carried away in debating and all. Sorry about that. --Axwind 22:35, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

It's cool I know you were just debating your side, we all get carried away sometimes. :-P DarkNecrid 16:42, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Survivor Title

Playing in NF it's relatively easy to get rank 1 survivor if you get a ferry to the docks right away to get max armor, and get your heroes properly equipped and skilled up as you get them. I did it in about 17hrs of play time. Just play through the quest line and story on Istan. And do all the normal difficulty side quests as they become available. If you really want to make it easy, get a ferry to LA and get someone to help you do the Get Olias quest (the only thing I needed help with). Then you have a lvl 15 MM with you. Once you hit lvl 20 (rank 1 survivor) do the Consulate Docks mission and then start capping elites. If you have help available, the other super simple way to get rank one is just get a ferry to KC and do all the Fed Ex quests in Kaineng Center. Means killing a few dozen things to get over 60k xp in a few hours of just running here to talk to this guy and then run there to talk to this other guy. I did it with a Derv. If you want help, let me know. -- Wyn 22:11, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Factions is pretty easy as well, provided you get some 20's to help with earlier missions, and kinda "lay back" in Kaineng and further in. I accidentally got a r1 survivor ranger a long time ago in Factions. Didn't even try o_O-- anguard 22:17, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Any strategies for Proph chars? I don't have loads of money to pay for runs to places so I'd prefer to avoid that.

Sorry, the only real decent way for survivor is in other campaigns and dwarven boxing. In Proph, you go through a PvP battle that cuts off the title anyway so...-- anguard 22:48, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Prophecies is the hardest campaign to get Survivor in. Due to no heroes, and low levels for a long time with no elite skill caps until the desert. -- Wyn 22:51, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, half the time the pvp battle at the end of pre never even happens. And in the other half I can always log out, then when I log back in, I'm at the mission to get to post. I understand it's hard to get it in Proph, Wyn, harder than anywhere else, but that's why I wanted to do it there at least once. Though I didn't mean Proph exclusively, just starting from there. I think with enough farming, one could get to level 16-17 by the time they reach LA for the first time. And from there it would just be a matter of going to Cantha and doing quests in Kaineng to get the last 3 levels. I think it's just a matter of knowing where to go and not go and when during the journey from Ascalon to LA. I haven't fully tested this out, though, so there might be stuff I haven't considered. --Axwind 23:20, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Why make it harder on yourself?-- anguard 23:27, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

The issues with doing it in Prophecies are many, no max armor until Drok's, and while getting a run to Drok's from Beacon's IS possible with a survivor, you have to do it alone, with a runner you trust, because at the gate into Dreadnought's Drift you can pretty much guarantee a party wipe if even one person doesn't do exactly what they are suppose to and aggros. Getting a run from Ascalon to LA can also be done, to get max armor in KC, however, the gate from Deldrimor Bowl into Griffon's Mouth in the Ettin cave can be dangerous as the Ice Ettins move all the way to the gate, and also sometimes spawn through the gate coming at you from behind. The biggest part of trying to do it in Prophecies however is having to depend on the hench rather than having heroes, since we all know the henchies are notoriously stupid, especially at low levels. This leaves you really dependent on assistance. As for my suggestions, they were based on you asking me to explain further my statement that getting rank 1 in NF was relatively simple which I have done and it is. -- Wyn 23:50, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Okay. Might wait till my next NF or factions character, then. And as for why Proph originally, Vanguard, to do something that isn't supposed to be able to be done. To be able to have done it in spite of the difficulty. --Axwind 23:54, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

You mentioned that you didn't have a lot of money for runs and stuff, and in NF, you are talking max 500g for a ferry to the docks, and another max 500g for a ferry to LA if you want to get Olias. Other than that you can get rank one on Istan fairly easily. -- Wyn 23:57, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Well thanks to Dwarven Boxing, the title doesn't mean much anymore. And if you go out of your way to explain your leetness and how you got it, you just end up looking like a bragging asshole. =/-- anguard 23:58, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

All the titles are like that, they are either buyable, or have been made so easy by cons, gimmicks, et. For me gaining the titles is about the personal sense of accomplishment, not worrying about what other people think. -- Wyn 00:07, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

It isn't something I'd be announcing everywhere I went, Vanguard. Just if the subject happened to come up in convo and I was asked about it. I don't like to brag. You may have a point about DB, though. And I agree, Wyn, that for me titles are about personal accomplishment. But it would have been nice if this one had been a little easier, say allowing a couple deaths before nuking it. No more than 5 or so, I should think. --Axwind 00:21, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

But then you wouldn't be a survivor, now would you?-- anguard 01:42, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I've heard of lag-deaths killing folks a hairsbreadth away from the title, that's why I said a few deaths should be allowed, but only a few. Survivor in the sense that death is rare, not necessarily nonexistent. --Axwind 04:46, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) For me, the fact that you cannot die even once was the reason to get this title. I got two legendaries now, one I gained by capping a lot of elites (some during a double xp weekend), the other by playing through the Factions campaign (all quests + all missions but one masters) up until Unwaking Waters (gained about 900K that way), skipped there, as I don't like Unwaking too much and moved on to Prophecies and Nightfall (and some EotN). Did some prophecies missions and quests and some Nightfall missions and quests (I believe I finished Venta). I only capped skills from my primary profession (ele) and faction prophesions (assassin and rit), but didn't go out of my way to get them. Those times I was really close to a death (both of my character and me :D), made me value the final title even more. --Lady Rhonwyn 13:40, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Whether you got the title with HFFF, Drunken Boxing, hiding by the portal while your Guild plays the game, or by front-lining everywhere, this is the ONLY title that you can fail to acquire. IMO, this is the only title of prestige, one screw up and it’s gone. It isn't meant to be easily obtained, or to have any wiggle room. All other titles are merely grind or money. This title is only hard to achieve, regardless of the method used to obtain it, if you are somewhat new to the game. Go slower if you are going play through the game to get the title, don't play the survivor toon if you’re tired or frustrated, and avoid PUGS like it's the end of the world. ALWAYS pay attention and NEVER AFK unless you are in a GH or town. ALT+F4 or F12+Yes are NOT your friend in a panic situation, since there is a bit of delay before the servers actually log you off. You are better off mapping to town or to your GH, but be quick and accurate with your clicking. Never rely on Monks to keep you alive, always bring a panic heal. But most importantly, finish all campaigns on a few toons first. Experience turns this "hard-to-get" title into a not-so-hard-to-get hard title. --Drakora 21:25, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the tips, guys, I"ll keep them in mind. :) --Axwind 22:11, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Could of gone on my talk page instead...

→ moved from User_talk:Linsey Murdock

@Az, I don't appreciate being labeled and insulted, particularly after I apologized to Linsey, Salome, and DarkNecrid about the whole thing. But maybe you didn't see that. I was stupid to let it go as far as it did, and I admit that. But that doesn't give you the right to keep punishing me for it long after the fact, Az. And I'm not a Gwen fanatic, as you put it. I just liked her story but really thought the angle with the PH could have been done a lot better than it was, as it is virtually ignored in EOTN outside that one single quest. Not saying it should have dominated the overall story - I know it shouldn't, it's a side arc and should remain as such - but just an acknowledgement outside the tapestry shred quest that they met before would have been nice, something that comes off as more than just an afterthought. And a little actual dialogue from the PH about it, since our character has a fair bit of lines in Factions, NF, and EOTN in some scenes but has absolutely none in the tapestry shred quest, which is where a PH ought to have something to say. Also, you can't count Fire and Pain in this because it isn't PH-exclusive. That's what I was talking about with acknowledgement. And in the tapestry shred quest, as I said, the PH has no dialogue at all. Not a single line. Which makes no sense. You can't say the friendship was really looked at when Gwen was the only one talking.

And while you may not think that much can happen in knowing a person for just a short time, not everyone sees things the way you do. I can remember people I met over ten years ago, even if I don't always remember what they looked like. And it's 7 years, not 6. She thought enough of the PH to safeguard his/her gift to her, and still remembered years later that she did so, and even where she hid it (within only a short distance). Which proves the original meeting meant something to her. And you forget, the PH is a rare thing in her present life - a familiar face from her past who is also in her present. Living proof that the Charr haven't taken quite everything away from her. Yet it is hardly touched upon or acknowledged (not even in the Wintersday quest, where it would be most significant). Anyway, that's enough about that. I don't want to go into it further here, as this isn't the place.

But I would like an apology, Az. Not only were you insulting, you were also inaccurate. I first posted my thoughts on a few Anet pages, yes, but eventually took most of them down of my own choice before they were ever commented on (and before anyone ever said anything to me about them being on multiple pages), because I realized it was too much putting it in so many places. Once Bobby directed me to Linsey, I mainly kept the discussion confined to here and later, to my own page. If you can't admit your own mistakes as I've admitted mine, you have no right to be a sysop/admin. I'm sorry if I sound a little harsh, I just don't appreciate being treated poorly when I've already acknowledged and admitted that I screwed up. --Axwind 21:51, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I have read this, re-read this, and read it once more before responding. My answer: No. I do not mean to sound like an ass by saying no, as I have reason why not to. I was one of those you highly annoyed in that topic when you brought it up three times. I didn't get an apology because I decided it wasn't worth my time. The fact that you posted on multiple anet employee and filled the entire page with that on Bobby's (which has dates for after you moved it onto Linsey as well). Not only that, but later you asked a question to Linsey and answered your opinion saying that it must be this and not I think it is this. And after it got moved to Regina's page, without ever a real answer, you go to Guru and say that there was an answer - one that you most recently made - and claimed it was from Regina herself! Trying to fool others into thinking that what you want is from an Anet employee.

As for the "gwen fanatic" you may not be a Gwen-person fanatic, but you certainly are a Gwen-story fanatic. Sure, not as bad as a certain person on GWO who is a fanatic about the "person" of Gwen (which version, Chibi, child, or adult no one can actually tell *that is no insult, that is fact - He's confusing, and much more annoying than you, Axwind*), but the point stands that you are, at the very least, pretty darn re-insuring by your previous actions that you are some form of fanatic over Gwen.

For your "I can remember people I met over ten years ago, even if I don't always remember what they looked like" - did you know them for less than a day - if not, moot point (and even, in facts, HELPS mine), if so well, still kind of helps my point - as I never said she didn't remember him, just that there wasn't a strong friendship. For the "7 not 6" for the years Gwen was in a Charr prisoncamp - again, you only helped my point with that and hurt your own.

Lastly "you have no right to be a sysop/admin." wtf? I'm not a sysop/admin, I don't want to be one either. Never tried, never will. So where the heck did that come from?

Bottom line: If you want my apology, you need to earn my respect, which you have only constantly dug a hole for. If I don't respect someone, I have no reason to apologize to them for something that wasn't completely off - the only thing I would apologize for is if I actually insulted you. "gwen fanatic" is not insulting, it is stating that you highly like gwen (whether the "person"/pixels like the GWO member I said or the story like you do, or something else). But I will thank you. You gave me a reason to vent off in a rant. -- Azazel the Assassin/talk 15:21, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Again, you're wrong, Az. The last time I commented about the topic of Gwen's story on Bobby's page was April 6, while the stuff on Linsey's page went on until April 21. It was April 5 that he first told me to go to Linsey, and only a day later I wrapped up the thread and thanked him. I didn't mention Gwen's story on his page at all after that day, and the only time since then that I posted there was to ask a question on an unrelated topic. Go check Linsey's archives and Bobby's page if you don't believe me. And it's been two months since the whole incident and not once have I tried to bring it back. Yet you treat me as if I go on about it every single day, when in fact I haven't. In the thread that popped yesterday, I only talked about it for a little bit and then said I didn't want to go into it any further and clutter Linsey's page up again. I just wish you'd recognize that I'm trying not to repeat my mistakes.

As for the topic that got moved to Regina's page, it didn't have anything to do with Gwen's story, so I don't know why you brought it up here. Even so, you're still wrong. Regina did give me an answer, and I'll quote it below:

Axwind: I believe your character goes through all the Missions, with Devona and co. as companions. However, I've forwarded the question to folks in the company, and if they have time they will get back to me on it. :-) --Regina Buenaobra 22:14, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

So until she says otherwise, the answer she gave me about that topic stands. Check her page if you don't believe that she said this. I'm sorry it doesn't go with how you feel the lore is, but that's what she said.

About the "fanatic" label, the very word has a negative connotation attached to it, which is why I resent it being used to describe me. The word suggests unhealthy fascination, not artistic, visual, and/or literary appreciation. As far as Gwen's knowing the PH goes, I never said the friendship had to be strong, only that it was likely to have been there at least a little bit. You don't take the time to protect a gift from someone that means nothing to you. Of all the people she followed in pre (and we know from Nicholas that there were many), only the PH made enough of an impact on her that she gave him or her her treasure, the tapestry shred, as a gift. And she later hid the PH's gift to her, the flute, to protect it. Which means she valued it, and by extension, the PH and her interaction with him/her.

Fast forward to EOTN, where eight years later, she is an embittered young woman who escaped from the Charr. Her past, her old life, everything she was, is gone, or so she believes. But then one day, unexpectedly, a piece of that life, a piece of herself, comes back to her in the form of the PH, a brief acquaintance who was kind to her long ago and who brings now the gift she she gave him/her back then, a reminder of who she once was, a reminder that she hasn't lost quite everything. By virtue of that alone, she would value seeing the PH again, would consider him/her a friend and not a mere afterthought regardless of however little they knew each other before. Otherwise she wouldn't have taken him/her back to Ascalon to give him/her the flute, as a symbol of that friendship. But this story is only barely touched upon, and never is the PH given anything to say about it. No reaction at all to seeing her again. By reaction I mean just a bit of mild surprise, and relief upon knowing she's alive. Nothing emotional, because as you said, they weren't that close in pre (although I do maintain that, given the no more than 6-8 year age difference between them, they could have become casual friends by the end of it, depending on how often a particular player let her follow him/her, which would obviously vary).

I'm sorry about the sysop comment, I thought you were one from what you had said a while ago about going through the edit logs. And yes, I do like Gwen's character, but I also like many others in GW. Her story just happens to stand out, to me. As for my own writing, I don't know how much of it you've read, but I don't plan on having all my stories focus on her, in case you were wondering. This one I'm writing now is just a prelude to set things in place, more or less. Others will focus on other characters, as I have a few of my own that have stories I'd like to tell. I just wanted to get this one out first, is all. --Axwind 22:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

So my memory on the gwen storyline stuff was wrong, I thought on Linsey's page it was from the end of march. So that I do owe an apology on (so sorry). And no, I don't act like you try to bring it up every day - trust me, I'd be a lot worse if I was. @"As for the topic that got moved to Regina's page, it didn't have anything to do with Gwen's story, so I don't know why you brought it up here." It's because, while it doesn't deal with Gwen, it deals with you. And Regina's "answer" was not an answer. It was a personal assumption just like everyone else's. She even says "I believe" which means it's not fact, so it does not stand "as fact."

Regarding the word fanatic, the definition for it: "a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal" nothing negative about it. The "negativity connotation" of that word is pure pop culture of it. Truth is, nothing is negative. So there is no insult. If you find an non-insulting term insulting, it is not my problem. And about the PH's lack of dialogue in the quest Pain and Fire - something I'd like to note is that in a fair majority of video games, when a hero or group of heroes goes to fight demons and "unimaginable creatures" and go into places like hell - most end up going insane with horror. While not heavily hinted upon, overall the hero seems a little less interacted in dialogues/cinematics (though that could be due to poor voice acting and rushed scripting). Finally, regarding your writings - I started reading but stopped due to being annoyed by the aforementioned GWO Gwen-lover/fanatic/highly interested person (whatever term you deem not negative). -- Azazel the Assassin/talk 23:25, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Though it may be an assumption, it's Regina, who is from Anet. So she'd speak from as best she knows the story and how it was meant to be - being on the inside, at Anet, she knows it better than we do. But we'll just have to wait till she hears back from the others at Anet and gives us a more definitive answer. About PH's silence, I wasn't referring to Fire and Pain, but to the tapestry shred quest where you get Gwen's flute and help her beat Daghar. Being that the PH is helping his/her friend overcome demons of her past, it's only natural that he/she should speak a little about it, whether it be encouragement for Gwen or regret over what happened or whatever else. I hope you won't judge my writing just because of Karn, btw, because while I like Gwen and her story, I don't obsess about it like he probably does. I just tend to be a rather persistent (perhaps a little too much so) debater sometimes. So I hope you'll give it another chance sometime. --Axwind 23:48, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

With how Regina answered, it is no better than the rest. The question in, well, question relates to Lore - unless Regina said it comes from someone on the lore team, it is, as I have been saying, not an accurate answer and is just as good as any theory or idea the community comes up with. For the PH thing, that was a slip of the fingers - probably caused by constantly looking at my watchlist where a recent change to Fire and Pain was made so it was fresh in my mind. I was thinking of the Then and Now, Here and There, but typed Fire and Pain. As for your fan-fiction - I have others to read on my list, and as of late (aka since Karn) I have been rather sick of the whole Gwen thing. So I try to avoid Gwen-related things usually. Especially fan-fictions. If I ever get "unsick" of it, I may look at your fan-fiction. -- Azazel the Assassin/talk 00:41, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Antagonists

→ moved from User talk:Bobby Stein

I'm really excited for GW2, it looks amazing! But there's one thing that bothers me. Once again, you guys have taken the same old "kill the big monster" approach to crafting your major foes - the dragons. Yet it would be so much better to have a complex, conflicted antagonist behind that, something more than just the standard "generic big boss" at story's end.

it would be a much more interesting story if the dragons' awakening was aided by another entity. A fallen being, perhaps, with personal goals of his or her own. A being or person who cares little for the world and the destruction the dragons will rain upon it, but at the same time has no desire for conquest or power, only an unrelenting obsession to achieve his or her personal goal (perhaps the recovery of someone precious who was lost long ago, the loss being part of the catalyst which drove the waker into the shadows to begin with), the promise of its fulfillment - as well as the necessarily long lifespan - given by the dragons in exchange for the being's aid in awakening them at the appointed time.

However, like all wicked creatures, the dragons have little interest in keeping their end of the bargain once the waker has accomplished the task of awakening them. So the waker seeks now not only the fulfillment of his or her goal, but vengeance upon the dragons as well. Neither the waker nor the dragons would deign to seek aid from the other races, preferring instead to rely on their own power. So while the dragons are the overt threat the world faces, the waker also is a threat, intent on accomplishing his or her goal no matter the cost, even if it means letting the world burn.

Two sets of enemies, each opposed to the other, with the world caught in between. Against the dragons, the course is clear - destroy them. But opposing the waker need not be so clear cut. To destroy him/her or to redeem him/her, both paths could be laid before us, for us to choose which way to go. Overall, a much more interesting scenario than just "kill the big bad monster" all over again. I know you're already well into developing GW2's story, but I hope you'll keep this in mind. It'd be a bit of a letdown for such a great game to have just a bunch of big mindless bosses (the dragons) to go up against at the end. Heroes aren't the only characters that can have character development and conflicted, complex motivations, as I'm sure you know. It would be nice if we could have a major enemy in GW2 like that, since the dragons probably won't be. --Axwind 22:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

"suggestion"

ups Vili 点 23:18, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, Axwind, there being some weaker, more secret and cunning enemy behind the awakening of the dragons is actually more bland and cliche' to me. That's just an excuse to keep the game going on the same enemy, instead of bringing a new enemy into play. It's just the same thing as Abaddon controlling Khilbron, Shiro, and Varesh. Ancient entities waking up from a long slumber without any outside influence is more unique to the Guild Wars universe. I don't want GW2 to be a copy of GW1 in terms of storyline. Though I do want to know what happened/s to Dhuum and Menzies... -- Azazel the Assassin/talk 16:57, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I never said the waker was weaker. He/she is NOT weaker, but would be equal in strength to the dragons. And it's not the same as the others. Shiro, the Lich, and Varesh were all willing servants. The waker is not. To the waker, the dragons are a means to an end, nothing more. What they do to the world is of no concern to the waker, nor is what the world does to them. The waker cares for neither side, intent only on accomplishing his or her goal no matter the cost. It is very different from what you think it is. --Axwind 23:58, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

On the other hand, we have no idea how complex the GW2 story really is, somehow I doubt we have been told all there is to know about the story. I mean, stories always get more complex than the basic premise, that's kinda the point. At the very beggining of the Odyssey, we know that Odysseus just wants to go home, but what makes it a great story is not simply that he outsmarted a cyclops, the story is weigh more complex than that. Same with the Iliad, Beowulf, and any number of great stories. I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't be disappointed yet, Axwind, for there is nothing to say the story won't include something like your Waker or whatever. Remember, the Elders aren't the only dragons in town, right? What will Glint's position in all this be? I mean, she seems pretty good throughout Prophecies, but she's a dragon, and she may need to obey (willingly or not) the Elders, or maybe she has other goals/motivations at work. Or maybe there is some other completely unrevealed faction/character involved. We just don't know. (Satanael 02:51, 22 August 2009 (UTC))

Khilbron, Shiro, and Varesh were all corrupted and then became "willing" servants. But it is still the same concept, weaker or not (I said weaker because how you worded it, it would be as if the "waker" needed the dragons to do the work because the "waker" couldn't), some unforeseen force driving forces, or trying to. Same thing as GW1. I would love a different kind of plot. And as Satanael said, we don't know the full story. I just hope it won't run parallel to GW1's story (strong forces manipulated by some unseen evil force). -- Azazel the Assassin/talk 03:09, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

The waker would NOT be manipulating the dragons. How often must I say this? The waker opposes both them AND the races. You have TWO enemy sides facing off against each other in this scenario, NOT one subservient to the other. And the world is caught in the middle. Am I being clear now? --Axwind 04:29, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

In the act of waking the dragons up, s/he/it is manipulating the dragons. You don't have to be allied to manipulate. Just like in Prophecies, the undead were enemies, the white mantle/mursaat were enemies, and khilbron - an undead, and thus an enemy - manipulated the heroes. Just by waking the dragons, as you claim should be done, this unseen foe is manipulating them. Pushing them towards fighting in the world. The plan goes wrong though, according to what you want. -- Azazel the Assassin/talk 19:46, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

We've been here before. You know not to post suggestions. Even with a spst' clever title. Backsword 02:31, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion creation

Please do not create suggestions for users other than yourself. Thanks. -- Wyn talk 02:38, 3 September 2009 (UTC)